April 27, 2024 • 54 mins
From a family band to scriptwriting to romance novels and teaching...
Ines Johnson joins us on the show this week to talk about understanding the market and finding your place in the trends. She's a master at finding patterns and applies that skill to the art of storytelling while meeting reader needs. Lucky for us, she's also a teacher at heart. This episode is a masterclass for writers at every stage.
Lover of fairytales, folklore, and mythology, Ines Johnson spends her days reimagining the stories of old in a modern world. She writes books where damsels cause the distress, princesses wield swords, and moms save the world.
Aside from being a writer, professional reader, and teacher, Ines is a very bad Buddhist. She sits in sangha each week, and while others are meditating and getting their zen on, she’s contemplating how to use the teachings to strengthen her plots and character motivations.
Discover how to strike the perfect balance between art and commerce, and learn why understanding your audience's desires is crucial to penning a story that resonates.
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Ines Johnson
Website: http://www.ineswrites.com/
The Author Wheel:
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Greta Boris:
Website: www.GretaBoris.com
Facebook: @GretaBorisAuthor
Instagram: @GretaBoris
Megan Haskell:
Website: www.MeganHaskell.com
Facebook & Instagram: @MeganHaskellAuthor
TikTok: @AuthorMeganHaskell
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everyone and welcome to the Author Wheel
podcast.
I'm Greta Boris, USA Todaybestselling mystery thriller
author.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
And I'm Megan Haskell , award-winning fantasy
adventure author.
Together we are the AuthorWheel.
I met today's guest a couple ofyears ago at a conference and
we've been meaning to have heron the show ever since.
Unfortunately, due to my owndisorganized contacts list, it
took us a while to actually gether here, but it was 100% worth
(00:27):
the wait.
Inez Johnson is a romancewriter and teacher with a
background in screenwriting.
That gives her a wealth ofinformation to share and the
skills to share it.
We talked about the patterns instory and the patterns in book
marketing and how she identifiesthe marketing trends and
studies the market each month tofind out what she wants to
(00:47):
write that fits within thetrends.
It's a truly insightfulconversation, so get ready to
take notes.
It's a good one.
But first, before we get intothat, greta, how's your week
going?
Speaker 1 (01:00):
It is flying by.
I'm telling you I do.
On the positive side, I do feel, though, that I've caught up
from vacation.
I'm just back to my normallevel of chaos instead of my
even more chaos on top of chaos,right series.
(01:24):
And I'm telling you it's reallya lot of fun to go back and
visit with those characters thatI haven't visited with in
several years, you know, yeah,yeah, really really enjoying
that.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
So our listeners know we are going to do a deep dive
onto Greta's process, or into,rather, greta's process on how
she's rewritten these books.
So I'm going to interview Gretaon a future episode, so stay
tuned for that.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Yeah, and I'm glad we haven't done it yet because I'm
still perfecting the process.
It's taken me about four booksto do it.
Yeah yeah.
The only other thing of interestin my life, I think, is that
and I'm kind of saying this toall you listeners because you
now are my accountability Ireally want to sit down this
week or early next week and planout the second quarter of the
(02:09):
year.
I realize I'm quite late, but,you know, better late than never
, and I'm trying to stick to ourclarify, simplify, implement
principles that I've been sobusy implementing.
I'm just having trouble gettingback to the other pieces of the
puzzle, so what about you?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Yeah, I feel that, I feel that hard.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Well, you know what though I think it's on a little
pat ourselves on the back thing,it is because we did a lot of
clarifying and simplifying.
I believe that we are deep intothis implementing thing and
maybe, rather than beatingourselves up if we don't do it
quarterly, we recognize I mean,I kind of did it with a year in
(02:56):
mind and that it's good becauseI haven't run out of things to
do, that's for sure.
And I also don't feel like I'mrunning around like a chicken
with my head cut off, doingwrong things or silly things.
I'm doing things that I feelare good, yeah, and profitable
and in the right direction.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
So oh, that's great, that's great.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Well, on my side of the world, I actually just got
back from the LA Times Festivalof Books, which was such an
amazing event.
It's just incredible to bearound a crowd of people who are
there specifically to celebratebooks.
I mean, most of the otherevents that I typically do are,
you know, they're either sci-fi,fantasy, comic con conventions
(03:41):
or their local craft fairs orlocal small book fairs, and it's
just not quite the same vibe.
But the la times festival ofbooks is, first of all, it's
massive.
It's I you know I knew it tookover the entire usc campus, but
like it really takes over theentire, yeah, usc campus seeing
(04:01):
it is.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Oh, you can think, you can imagine it, but when you
see it you're like yeah, and.
And they say reading is dead.
They have not been to the latimes book fair.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
No no, it was.
It was an incredible event andso I'm hoping I'll get invited
back to do it again with thesame group.
Um, we just had a blast and weall worked together really well
and it was a lot of fun.
So I am hoping to make this anannual um, you know book event
that I do, so so that was fun.
But now I'm getting back to workand actually I have a new
(04:35):
secret not so secret, uh projectthat I'm doing with my friend,
rachel Renner, who is anaward-winning and best-selling
author.
Our books are supercomplimentary.
She writes in a very similarstyle to me.
Hers are a little bit spicier,a little bit more romance on her
, like regular series, butthey're portal fantasies and
(04:59):
they're just really good comps.
Plus, we're really good friends.
So, uh, yeah, we are puttingtogether a short story anthology
and I'm really excited about it.
We already have a title.
It's going to be called myths,magic and mayhem and it's going
to feature norse myths, retireddragons, escaped souls and magic
(05:20):
quills.
So it's going to be a lot offun and I'll have more
information on that in thefuture.
But that's my big exciting newsof the week.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
And we did interview Rachel on the podcast last year,
so we could put that, if weremember, we can put a link to
that episode in the show notesand if we forget, just go scroll
back and look for Rachel Renner.
It was a great interview.
She's really fun and her booksare awesome.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Yeah, I think she was in season one.
I think she was one of our, ormaybe early season two, but I
think she was season one.
Anyway, yeah, I'll try and findthat link.
I cannot tell you.
Yeah, anyway, now on, for wehave a shout out for our first
subscriber sponsor.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
So exciting, so many thanks and I mean that from the
bottom of my heart to Maddie DalRimple of the Indie Author
Podcast.
She has launched a coachingprogram that teaches authors how
to pitch and perform onpodcasts, and I actually
participated in it.
I had a pod pro author coachingsession and I learned a lot.
(06:34):
So I will just say, if you'reat all nervous about going on
podcasts or thinking aboutstarting your own podcast, I
would totally do this.
Maddie will encourage, notdiscourage, you.
I really came away feelingexcited about making some
changes to tackle my next onlineopportunity.
Maddie is a real pro.
(06:55):
So thank you, maddie, forsponsoring the show.
Her link is in the notes, andnow on with the show.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Today we are absolutely thrilled to have Inez
Johnson on the show with us.
I met Inez about a year or twoago I can't even quite remember
now, but it's been a bit andI've wanted to have her on the
show forever and unfortunately,due to my own procrastination,
never quite made the offer.
So we're excited to finallybring her on.
(07:24):
It's gonna be a really funconversation.
So quick bio here.
Ines Johnson is a lover offairy tales, folklore and
mythology.
She spends her days reimaginingthe stories of old in a modern
world and writes books wheredamsels cause the distress,
princesses wield swords and momssave the world.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Love that Woohoo.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Aside from being a writer, professional reader and
teacher, inez is a very badBuddhist.
She sits in Sangha I think Isaid that right Sangha each week
, and while others aremeditating and getting their Zen
on, she's contemplating how touse the teachings to strengthen
her plots and charactermotivations.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
I love that too.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
I know that's great too.
Basically, we love your bio andwe love all things about you.
This is amazing.
Inez lives outside WashingtonDC with her two little sidekicks
, who are growing up way toofast, and I can a 100% relate to
that as well.
So, inez, we're so glad to haveyou on the show and welcome.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
Thank you so much.
I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
This is a long time coming, and so we're very
thrilled to have you.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
We are.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Thanks guys, I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
So why don't we start and just with our usual?
Tell us a little bit more aboutyour journey into writing and
publishing and all things books.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Well, I was born storyteller.
I was born into a funk band, isa bass player and I can still
remember his big greenScooby-Doo psychedelic van that
we would be in the back of as hewould drive around to various
gigs.
But so I grew up.
My first storyteller was musicand I remember my dad just
(09:17):
explaining to me how.
You know, the bass had its ownbeat and that was the basis
story.
The drums had their own beatand the vocals had their own
beats, and that just has alwaysstuck with me how stories are
layered.
And my family is huge onlibraries.
That was the treat you get togo to the library and you get
any book that you want.
So I took all that and I grewup.
(09:40):
I was a child, a very proudchild of the 80s, and so I loved
my after school specials and mySaturday morning cartoons.
You know when cartoons andchildren's television, they had
stories, they had morals toteach us.
It wasn't like any type ofpolitics or anything like that,
and that's what I thought storywas.
So that when I came into thisworld, I entered the world of
(10:01):
storytelling professionally as ascreenwriter.
That's what my bachelor'sdegree is in and that's what I
wanted to do?
I wanted to be the next SesameStreet Workshop the makers of
Sesame Street.
Oh, that's amazing, yeah.
And somehow I wound up writingvery smutty stories Not for
Sesame Street.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Sesame Street to smut yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Yeah, okay, that's your bio title when you get
around to writing your memoir.
Sesame Street to Smut.
Yeah, yeah, hey, that's yourbio title when you get around to
writing your memoir.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
Sesame Street to Smut .
Speaker 1 (10:33):
I love it.
So were the screenplays thatyou wrote um smutty too no, they
were not.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
I worked for National Geographic and then for
Children's Television.
Okay, oh, wow, yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Just wanted to clarify that that we're not
talking to a writer of pornmovies or anything like that
here on the show.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
No, that would be too much story yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
How long were you a screenwriter then, before you
wrote your first novel?
Speaker 3 (11:07):
So I worked in television.
So pretty much when I was incollege I started to work.
I my freshman year I overheardsomeone one of the guidance
counselors telling like we'rerating a student like you don't
have an internship yet, youbetter get that started.
You think you're going to havea job in this student.
Like you don't have aninternship yet, you better get
that started.
You think you're gonna have ajob in this industry?
You need to have an internship.
And I was like, oh no, I don'thave an internship.
(11:30):
I was a freshman senior.
What did I do?
I went out and I found aninternship, but that was one of
the best things that I didbecause I had an internship
every single year that I was inschool so that by the time I
graduated, people were werecalling me.
I didn't have to call people.
So I worked first.
I always worked in television.
I never worked in like film orHollywood and I worked like I
(11:52):
said.
I worked for National Geographictelevision and if you remember
National Geographic, they hadwhat they call their blue chip
documentaries, which were wherethere were just animals and
there were no people.
And that's when I learned thisword animals and there were no
people.
And that's when I learned thisword anthropomorphizing where
you had to give the animalshuman-like characteristics in
order to tell the story.
Those animals aren't aren'tthinking about oh no, the
(12:13):
winter's gonna be harsh.
They're not thinking procreate.
But that's where I that's whereI really started to hone my
chops is being in those writersrooms where those really crazy
smart people were talking abouthow to tell these stories of
these animals.
So I did that.
(12:34):
I worked at the DiscoveryChannel for a brief stint.
Then I went and I worked forthe Black Family Channel where I
wrote children's media.
I loved the Saturday morningcartoons.
I basically started to workdoing things like that.
Kind of had my little SesameWorkshop little dream come true.
So literally as soon as I was,before I even left school, I was
(12:54):
already working and I workedactively in television until
maybe 2009, maybe.
And then I started to.
I got really into teaching andas I was teaching wasn't working
as much in television.
I would do a little bit here, alittle bit like a small project
(13:17):
here, a small project there.
But I'd started to writesomewhere around then and I had
just gotten bitten by the bookbecause I love story, like when
my dad told me about the layers.
It just struck something in meand I started to understand the
structure of screenplays and thestructure of how to make people
(13:38):
feel things with moving images.
And then I was like, well, I'mwriting this stuff, I should be
able to make them feel thingsand do things and want to design
things with the words.
So I just took everything thatI learned in music and in
television and then justtranslated that into novel
writing.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
She was more opera, so it was the classics and all
that.
But I agree with you, she wouldalso teach and I would be
upstairs and I'd be listening toall her students singing all
the songs from all the musicalsat the time.
And it's all story.
It is set to music and somebodyhad bought me that Peter and
(14:19):
the Wolf, which is a classical,and the oboe is one animal and
the flute is another animal andall the voices, and I think it's
a fabulous way to teachchildren.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Is that musical morphine?
No, animusical morphine, thatsounds like a drug.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
I don't recommend that on the podcast.
But this is a quick rabbittrail before we get back to our
normal questions.
But do you find because I feellike this is true for me that
the language itself, as you'rewriting your novels, has a
(15:02):
musical quality and like, if youwrite a sentence that doesn't
sound right, it could begrammatically correct, it could
be all the things, but it justdrives you up a tree and you
have to fix it?
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Yeah, it's not only that, but you start to get into
just like you were saying aboutthe oboe and the flute, like if
a character is a flute and thenthey all of a sudden make a bass
sound.
It's wrong and you want to goback and you want to change that
tone for it to strike the rightnote.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
So yeah, I love that too.
I do think sometimes there's alot of things that can be taught
practically about writing, andpeople can become excellent
writers all different ways.
But I love hearing about peoplewith a musical background
because I always think it givesthem a little, a little lyrical
step up.
That is very hard to teach.
(15:53):
It's just something you got inyour bones.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
True, but there's patterns to music.
Like some people can't readmusic, but they can hear those
patterns.
They can create those patternsthemselves, and that's to me
what storytelling is can hearthose patterns, they can create
those patterns themselves, andthat's to me what storytelling
is.
It's patterns, and if you cansit down and understand, if you
can study the patterns, if youcan understand them, if you can
try to twist them and turn themin different types of ways, that
(16:17):
is art.
There's a process and thenthere's the artistry that you
put on top of the process.
And because I taught artists, Itaught screenwriters and video
editors and sound designers.
I think there's a really uniquetalent in people who are
teaching other artists, becausethere's this duality of well,
what are you grading?
(16:39):
Do you just prefer that person'sthe way that they art as
opposed to the way that thatother person arts?
At the end of the day, like ifyou're teaching painting, like
red and blue make purple, that'sthe only way you're going to
get it.
But one student might decide toput a little bit of white in
there, another student mightdecide to put a little yellow in
(16:59):
there, and that's the artistry.
You showed me the competencyRed and blue, purple, but light
purple, darker purple, a purplewith with umber tones.
That's the artistry and I thinkwe can start to separate that
out, because people in ourindustry you hear people talk
about oh I can't plot, I can'toutline, that's going to ruin it
(17:20):
for me and I'm like you'regoing to do it anyway.
You're just not writing downbeforehand that you're outlining
, but you are following apattern and I just think it's so
important to study thosepatterns, to get stronger, to
build up your craft.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Yeah, that's a beautiful way of saying it.
I do love that.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
So when did you publish your first novel?
Speaker 3 (17:46):
December 2014,.
I published an erotic,dystopian male, male, female
amalgamation of a whole bunch ofthings that I thought was
science fiction and itapparently wasn't science
fiction.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
No, it wasn't, no not even slightly.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
I didn't know, I didn't know.
And then the next thing that Idid is I published.
After that, in the spring, Ipublished one of my favorite
books that I wrote, pumpkin, aCinder Mama Story where I retold
the Cinderella tale, butstarring a single mother.
Oh, I love that and there was alittle bit of magical realism
in it, but it was contemporary.
I was all over the place.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
But I think that that's so common for and I don't
even want to say beginningwriters, because that's that's
not quite.
I mean, you could be have beenwriting for years and years and
years, so you're not reallybeginning anymore, but for first
novels or the first few novels,I feel like you know they kind
of publishers.
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's,that's so common.
You kind of have to workthrough that, like I'm going to
(18:52):
throw everything in the kitchensink into my story, cause I love
it yeah, that's what we do andstart to get a little bit more
focused.
So, um, I'm normally we go intoroadblocks now, but I'm going
to just ask you, how have you,or has your career, progressed
from everything in the kitchensink to a more focused genre or
(19:15):
marketing or I don't even knowwhat you want to call it, but a
more focused author career?
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Well, I'm going to lead us into roadblocks with
that answer, because I keepcoming up to this roadblock.
I know what the market wants.
The market tells me what itwants.
I can see the market moving.
If you're studying the patterns, you can see what's happening
right.
But do I write a hockey romance?
No, I decide I wanna write.
(19:40):
I have to go and set that grainand do something completely
different, because that's thestory that is dying to get out
of me and I have to tell it.
So I keep doing that over andover again, but I but it's, but
I'm, I'm.
I'm so blessed and lucky andthankful that I do.
I am a prolific writer and Ican work on more than one thing
(20:02):
at a time.
So I'm always writing some bookthat is in my heart that just
has to come out.
But, but I start my day writingwhat I know is to market, and
then, with the time left over inmy writing brain, I will write
the thing that just has to comeout of me.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Oh, that is so interesting and it's really
really wise.
Yeah, Because you know it'slike any job, right, the reason
anybody gets into any job.
Well, no, I take that back.
You don't go get a job atCostco because you feel it's the
thing of your heart, that'sjust for money, but maybe some
(20:40):
people do.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Not me.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
But I guess the point being is that, like, every job
has its fun things and it's notfun things, and if we're going
to be professionals, so it'slike sometimes we talk to
writers and they're like theprofessional, you need to know
what the market way, you know,and you don't ever get writer's
block because this is a job andblah, blah, blah.
But yet I love what you'resaying.
(21:03):
It is also an art, and in orderto do it, we have to nurture
our artist's soul, and so Ifinding that balance is really
critical, and I love how youfound it by writing both.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
So I have a question, though, for writing both,
because I personally, I mean Ican write one thing and edit a
different thing.
That's possible for me, butwriting two things, I'm not sure
my brain has that capacity.
I mean, to be fair, I'm notsure I've ever really tried, but
yeah, it seems more challenging.
But how do you break up yourday more specifically to make
(21:40):
sure that you're feeding bothsides of that professional
creative?
Speaker 3 (21:46):
soul.
My brain prefers to write onebook and edit another book.
So I do prefer because thatfeels very balanced to me If I'm
just writing, I'm missingediting.
If I'm just editing, I'mmissing drafting.
So my brain prefers thatbalance.
But another trick that I have isthat I will start my day
(22:06):
typically in my office and Iwill do whatever is the market.
Mostly we'll do whatever is themarket thing that I need to do.
That I know is going to sell,but I also it's this to eat the
frog time, like the thing that Idon't want to do.
I'm going to do that first andthen I will either go, depending
upon the weather, I will go sitdownstairs on my living room
(22:28):
couch, and then that just changeof venue, that much will let my
brain know oh okay, we're in adifferent place, we're in a
different time, let's dosomething different.
Or I will go out to a localcoffee shop and I will write
there.
So and I always have veryspecific goals, because that
works really well for me I don't, I'm not a by word count person
, because the goal then is toget as many words as possible,
(22:51):
and I literally will break apartcontractions and add adjective
and adverb just to get the wordcount.
So I can't have that word countgoal.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
I need to have a chapter goal because a chapter
is a contained thing.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
For me, a chapter has a goal, motivation, conflict.
It moves along the plot.
So I have, depending upon howmuch I'm writing, I might do two
chapters in the morning for theto market thing, and then I
might do one to two chaptersafter that, either later in the
morning or in the afternoon.
Sometimes I will go like whenmy kids were younger and they
(23:28):
needed to get out of the houseto get homework done.
We maybe go to the library andI'd write, or we go sit at
Panera Bread and I'd write whilethey would do their work.
So I'm having that division.
That and having that divisionand having a very specific goal
works the best for me.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Oh, that's great.
Yeah, I'm with you on thechapter goal.
I've tried the word count goaland for some reason, I just get
really stressed.
It gives me anxiety instead ofme feeling like, oh, this is a,
like you said.
A chapter is like a containedthing.
So I felt like I createdsomething.
(24:04):
Yes, when I wrote a chapter,but it was just words.
It was yeah, me and math, wedon't do letters.
Yes, when I wrote a chapter,but it was just words.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
It was yeah, me and math.
You do letters, not numbers.
I get you yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
I know I do love that , so would you say that that has
been your biggest roadblock?
Then is this nurturing both theartist in you and the
businesswoman in you at the sametime?
Speaker 3 (24:29):
No, not the nurturing the artist and the
businesswoman.
Nurturing well, maybe, yeah,nurturing the artist and the
businesswoman, but veryspecifically writing that
balance of writing to marketversus writing from the heart,
because sometimes what's comingfrom my heart is not to market.
Whenever I'm looking, I, everyquarter, at the very least every
(24:49):
quarter I sit down and I do adeep dive of what does the
market want right now.
How has it shifted?
I go look at the bestsellerscharts and just do a serious
deep dive where I'm taking noteson covers, taking notes on
titles, I'm looking at tropeswhat are people putting in their
blurbs?
What's at the top, what's atthe bottom, what are readers
saying?
And then I then I check with myheart.
(25:10):
I'm like, okay, like last lot acouple of quarters ago it was
bully romance like, can you doit?
Can you do it?
My heart was like, no, I don'twant to write a bully romance.
But at the same time I was like, but I can write enemies to
lovers.
I just can't go to that extreme.
Just like now, like hockey isso popular.
And I was like, can you do it?
Can you do it?
I was like, no, I don't want towrite a hockey romance, but I
(25:35):
can still write like.
One of the things that I thinkis working with hockey romance
is that all those men are on ateam and that's very attractive.
So I can do some kind of a teamfound family kind of thing, but
not necessarily hockey, becauseI think all that padding is
just too much.
You have to take off so muchstuff.
I write slutty books.
You have to take off so muchstuff and it's sweaty stuff.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
There's also the missing teeth, and you know,
yeah, hockey's not my sporteither.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
I did see it.
Some people are starting to dosoccer books and that's getting
exciting.
So I'm like, oh, soccer.
Oh, there you go Love it yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
So jump on that early .
Speaker 1 (26:17):
What about a fire station?
I don't know Firemen, everybodyknows they're hot, literally no
pun intended.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Literally.
Maybe Xbox players are now in afire all in the same ladder.
Maybe, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Love it or you know, firemen are always like
weightlifting and stuff fire.
They could start a team andthen they could play against
another, the police or somethinglike that it's right.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
yeah, the uh firefighters versus the police
in the annual baseball softballgame.
There you go.
There you go Done.
We just wrote your book for you, thank you I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
So you segued then from your science fiction
fantasy into romance.
When did you like finally sayto yourself okay, Inez, get it
together, I am writing romance.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Oh, I was always romance.
I just did not understandsubgenres.
I thought that that was thesubgenre, that romance was the
subgenre of fiction, and that'sall that I needed to understand.
And that was wrong.
So at some point, maybe two,three years into it, because I'd
written that dystopian that wasnot a sci-fi, I'd written that
(27:35):
contemporary but also hadmagical realism, then I wrote
paranormal, but it was allparanormal, set inspired by
Christmas stories, don't ask me.
Oh, I love that.
I just kept going all over theplace, just writing what I
wanted to write.
And when I started to see thatthe readers who would email me
(27:56):
were not the same people andthey would talk specifically
about certain series of booksand not about the others, I was
like, what's going on here?
These are all romances.
Why aren't you reading all ofthem?
What's going on here?
These are all romances.
Why aren't you reading all ofthem?
And that's what it took for meto understand that there's
readers that like paranormalromance, there's readers that
like science fiction romance,there's readers that like
(28:18):
contemporary romance, and theneven within contemporary and
paranormal there's differences.
So it was the readers thattaught me, because if there's
kissing in it, I'm going to readit.
But readers taught me that no,I want this type of kiss in this
kind of place and I want him tosay this specifically.
So that's when I I air quotesgot my act together and I, I, I
(28:39):
separated myself.
So, um, and I separated myselfbased upon the steam level.
So if the books were steamy,then they went under the Ines
Johnson pen name.
If the were steamy, then theywent under the Ines Johnson pen
name.
If the books were sweet, thenthey went under the Sinead
Johnson pen name, and that's themost boundaries that I have.
I did try to do like a thirdway split where it was just
(29:01):
purely erotic romance and thenlike purely fantasy or
paranormal romance.
I tried to do that split butthose readers were like, yeah,
we'll read both of those.
It's just the sweet stuff thatwe're not interested in.
So that's how I made thedecisions.
I let the readers tell me.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
So one of the things we started talking about before
we started recording was howyour marketing is actually in
your craft, and so when you talkabout marketing, it's in a lot
of ways inseparable from theactual story.
So can you talk a little bitmore about that?
I mean, obviously, separatingthe pen names is a big component
(29:38):
of that to make sure you'remeeting reader expectations.
But what do you do specifically, or what are you looking for
specifically, when you'reputting the marketing in your
book and then pulling themarketing out of your book?
Speaker 3 (29:50):
So let's go back on my journey.
So I learned that romance is acategory of fiction.
And then in romance, then youhave subcategories where it
could be paranormal,contemporary science fiction,
mysteries, thriller, suspense,we could go on right.
And then within that there'stropes.
There's tropes like enemies tolovers, there's tropes like us
(30:11):
as romance right.
So I did deep dives on tropesbecause I started to see the
pattern.
A lot, I'm sure we all do so.
You see, a trope is a pattern.
It's something that people wantrepeated over and over again.
If it's an enemies to lovers,these two people, for some
reason they're at each other'sthroats.
But and enemies to lovers,these two people, for some
reason they're at each other'sthroats.
But there's some reason thatthey adhere, that they have to
(30:32):
stick together for this romance.
And I was reading an articlewhere someone was looking at the
enemies to lovers trope inShakespeare and they called it a
merry war.
And I just love that termbecause that's what is pretty
much going on Within this tropeof a merry war.
Enemies to lovers or oppositesattract.
At some point the, the hero isgoing to insist that they try.
(30:54):
Whatever it is that they'redoing his way like.
If it's an office, if it's an,if it's a romance uh,
contemporary office romance withthe with the enemies to lovers
trope.
You see how we go down thatladder.
Then at some point the hero isgoing to say we're going to do
this assignment my way and it itgoes wrong.
And then another point, thehero is going to say no, no, no,
(31:14):
no, we're going to do it my way, and it goes wrong.
But then once they start towork together, things start to
work out.
That always happens in enemiesto lovers trope.
If you look at another trope,like, for example, the hidden
identity trope, if you look atum another trope, like, for
example, the hidden identitytrope, in a hidden identity
trope somebody is pretending tobe someone they're not like.
One of my favorites is whenit's royalty and the person who
(31:37):
is the princess or the prince ispretending to be a commoner and
at some point someone's gonnawreck.
While they're pretending withthe love interest, someone's
gonna come up and recognize themlike you're such and they're
gonna play it off like oh, no,no.
So there's these close calls.
When you have a hidden identitytrope, even if it's not a royal
person, there's always going tobe a close call.
It's always going to be thatthe the the love interest falls
(31:59):
in love with the person who'shiding because they see behind
the mask, they see that person'strue identity.
That's who they fall in lovewith.
And there's all this frictionbecause the person who's hiding
is pretending to be who they arenot and it's confusing the love
interest and they're like Idon't get it.
I keep thinking that I love you, but then you do this right,
(32:20):
and then at some point the maskcomes off.
But that's a moment of betrayal.
How could you hide this from me?
And then they come backtogether.
If you love a trope and you keeplooking at it, you're gonna see
patterns, and I love patterns.
All that just to answer yourquestion of once you see the
patterns over and over again andyou see what readers are
(32:41):
looking for, then you can say ahwell, I know I'm gonna be using
the hidden identity trope and Iknow that the universal fantasy
thank you, thea Thora Taylorthe universal fantasy of the
hidden identity trope is thatthe love interest can see past
the mask to who you really are.
And don't we all want someone tobe able to see past that mask
(33:01):
and see who we truly are?
So if that's the universalfantasy.
Then you need to put moments inthere, what I call heartbeat
moments.
You need to put the heartbeatmoments in there where maybe
he's, if she's the one that'shiding he leans in close and
he's looking at her, he's gazingat her so, so intensely.
And he asked her the questionof where you can tell he sees
(33:23):
who she truly is and you see, on, like things like TikTok and
Instagram, where it'll saysomething like when he leans
over you in the doorway and helooks deeply into your eyes and
you feel like he can see intoyour soul.
That's marketing copy.
But that marketing copy camefrom that moment that you had to
put there because of a trope,because you put it in an office
romance, that's, in acontemporary romance, so it just
(33:44):
builds itself up and down.
But you have to realize thepatterns in order to put them
there and then pull the patternsback out that.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
No, that's really really good.
You know, we have, uh, tried to.
We talk about trips, thatneither megan nor I write
romance, but we always haveromance in our stories and I
think most people have some formof romance in their stories.
But tropes are, they're in andthey're in every kind, even
literary fiction.
That that shows and I.
(34:13):
But what I think is so fun abouttalking to a romance writer is
that they just don't make anybones about it.
It's like here that here it isand here is what works, because
this is the way that yourreaders are going to engage and
I think it's taking.
One of the things I loved aboutwhat you said is that when
(34:36):
you're baking the marketing intoyour story, it's like as if you
were baking some treat for yourfamily.
You want to please them.
You want like, oh, my daughterloves chocolate, or oh, my son
loves bananas, and you're bakingsomething in knowing that
(34:57):
that's what's going to tempt theperson you're making it for.
And I think that's wheresometimes all of us, as early
writers, miss the boat.
We forget that we're creating atreat for someone else and we
just make what we want.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
I wonder if this is a lot, too, about women.
Well, women will say this iswhat I want, this is what makes
me happy, and then someone willcome and say no, no, no, no, no,
I'm not going to give youchocolate, I'm going to give you
a licorice or beef jerky.
And then they don't come back.
They're no, that said, that'snot what I want.
I think romance readers arevery vocal and I think that
(35:32):
romance writers because we allare readers we listen and we do
it and we and we put surprisesin it too, because even if
you're leading them all alongthat pattern, maybe sometimes
you zig, but if you zig, youcome right back to that line, so
you kind of like oh, and thenyou, then you delight us again
by going back on it, whereasanother person again they might
(35:54):
hand you beef jerky when youwant chocolate, they never
produce the chocolate.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Yeah, I know, and just beef jerky muffins sounds
terrible.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
Oh gosh.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
Beef jerky dipped in chocolate.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
I think that's always a bacon thing.
You're talking to a non-meateater here, so it just all
sounds bad to me.
Oh, yeah, yeah, but that is areally the way you just
described.
That is really good and itmakes me want to start writing
right now.
I want to just like okay, bye,inez, I'm going to go write.
(36:30):
It's so good.
Tell listeners if you don'tmind a little bit about the
courses you have available,because I was looking on your
website and it was like oh, thatlooks good.
Oh, I want to take that.
That looks amazing.
That looks amazing.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
So let me preface this by saying that I started to
teach when I had kids and Ineeded to slow down and I
couldn't be available 24 hours aday because, working at
National Geographic, I had crewsall over the world in every
time frame and there was no suchthing as a nine to five.
So pretty soon after I hadchildren, I was like I don't
(37:07):
want to leave this industry, butthis cannot be my full-time
income anymore, and that's whenI started to teach.
I love teaching.
I taught for 15 yearsScreenwriting, video editing,
history of media, loved it, butat some point I burned out.
I was just tired of teaching.
The quality of student changedas well, and there were just
(37:28):
students that just didn't reallywant to be there.
I don't understand why they'rethere.
Anyway, I burned out and I wasburned out for maybe three years
and then I started missing it.
And you could tell I startedmissing it because if you came
up to me in a conference and youasked me a question, I would
talk your ear off and then Imight email you with some other
information, because I justwanted to explain and explain.
(37:50):
So the courses came about when Isaw that I was telling people
the same things and I was like,well, here, let me just write it
down for you.
And I wrote it down and itbecame the Page Turner Pacing
Course how to Write aBenchworthy Novel in 21 Days.
Because, as I said, I'm aprolific writer because I come
from screenwriting.
So, again, in screenwriting wedidn't know there was no such
(38:13):
thing as a plotter versuspantser.
Like, a plot is the structureof the story.
So I didn't understand whatpeople were saying.
But they were saying pantsers,they write by the seat of their
pants.
I was like, okay, cool, butthere's still a structure.
So I sat down and I wrote this,basically a manifesto, to
explain to people how I go aboutwriting.
And remember I said I'm usuallywriting one to two chapters a
(38:35):
day.
Those chapters are all plotpoints.
Like I will start, I will write.
I usually write dualperspective, so I'll write the
ordinary world of the hero,that's chapter one, the ordinary
world of the hero and that'schapter two.
And then I keep going back andforth.
There's a meet cute.
There's a reason that theycan't be together, then another
reason the reason that they arethat they have to be together in
the book.
And then we go into act two,where there's the falling in
(38:55):
love moments, and then there's amoment where they're like I
can't live without this person.
But oh no, here comes a bad guyand now it's the dark night.
These patterns happen all overagain and I just took the
patterns and I put them in 21days and it's pretty much how I
(39:16):
write all of my books in 21 days.
And that became the patientrepacing course how to write a
binge-worthy novel in 21 days,and from there that's.
So.
That was far better than Icould have ever imagined it
doing, and people started askingme more questions.
They started asking me becausethey knew I wrote both clean and
wholesome sweet romance and Ialso write really dirty, smutty
romance.
And they asked well, how do youdo this?
And so then I wrote two moremanifestos.
(39:37):
I wrote my writing dirty and mywriting sweet courses, which
takes you on how to emotionallywrite.
Because people also would askme how do you keep writing all
these sex scenes?
You have all these books andhow do you?
Aren't all the sex scenes thesame.
Like what are you talking about?
They're never the same Because,again, the way that I saw
(39:58):
things, that the love scenesalways came there was always a
sectional awakening journey andthe love scenes always come out
of character development.
So one of the examples that Ilove to give is like if the
heroine of your book is anassassin and she's falling for
this, maybe she's falling for anordinary guy, maybe she's
falling for another assassin,but the first time that they
come together to make love,she's like I have to be on top
(40:20):
and she has to see the door.
Okay, probably doesn't trusthim so much, but then they go
through some more ups and downsand trials and tribulations.
The next time that they makelove, she doesn't have to be on
top and she doesn't have to seethe door.
That's character development.
And guess what?
They're going to touch eachother differently.
And that's how every sex sceneshould be.
It should come out of thecharacters and how they are
(40:43):
changing and evolving.
Because if you're just writing,he inserted tab A into slot B.
Yeah, I'm going to skip pastthat too.
It's not interesting, oh mygosh.
So that's what the writingjourney course became, and I
also wrote the writings, becausepeople were like, well, how can
you write these books that areall this tension filled and
there's only kissing?
And I was like, let me show youhow I did it.
(41:04):
So I wrote those two and thenit just kept going somewhat.
I started doing direct salesabout two years ago and once
again someone asked how are youdoing this?
And I literally wrote aPowerPoint and I was like, here,
this is how I do, I'm doing it.
And then I was like this is acourse.
So I put that up and that's thecourse, and I just keep going.
Now people are asking me abouttropes and literally someone
(41:24):
asked me about the hiddenidentity trope and I was like,
oh it's.
It's the person falling in lovewith the truth, with the true
essence, while they're trying tohide their, their, their,
behind this false identity.
And I literally the next day,wrote 20 pages explaining this.
I was like, here you go.
Oh, this is a course, that'show it happens.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
Well, I love that because I think what you're
doing is you.
You seem to have the ability tobreak down your own process
into a way that is that iseasily digestible by other
writers, authors, people whowant to learn story, want to
learn writing technique, and soforth and I love that because
you are a teacher and it comesfrom that teaching experience
(42:08):
and now I need to go take allyour courses.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
You know what I think it is too.
I mean, is that you are apattern person.
Yeah, you see patterns.
I mean, you're just wired thatway.
And so I, and I do think thatthat's a lot of the problem when
people first begin writingnovels is that they don't see
the forest for the trees.
(42:34):
They're just wandering throughthis world and they're not
exactly there.
You know one of my forgive melisteners if you say this, but
one of my least favorite thingsI hear writers say is oh, my
characters.
Just, you know, I had itplanned and they just led me in
a different direction.
I'm like, seriously, they arein your head, you have control.
(42:57):
I just don't.
I mean, but I do understandwhat they're saying in one sense
of the word, but but I alsothink that it's.
It is that pattern thing andsometimes your characters
surprise you and I love that.
That's great.
But still it's thatunderstanding that stories have
(43:18):
to have a certain structure init that isn't formulaic.
I mean it could be, but itisn't necessarily formulaic.
It's something that givesreaders a place to grab onto and
that makes them want to read it.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
See, I will say, I'm going to argue with you for a
second here, Greta.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
Poor Inez.
Yeah, just sit back and drinkyour coffee, inez.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
I do have.
I mean, I think having thatsense of structure, having that
sense of plot and the key beatsto the story, of the story that
you're trying to tell, whateverthat is, is very important.
And I think, for the quoteunquote pancers or discovery
writers amongst us, I think thatthat's a little bit more maybe
ingrained in our heads.
(44:04):
But for me, like if I went andthrew and wrote and what I would
consider a traditional outline,which is to say, you know,
heroine does a, then goes to b,then you know, does c, and then
there's the you know like, whereyou actually um outline the
events of the story, like thespecific things that your, your
protagonist, is going to do.
(44:26):
For me I will get to pointswhere the character is like no,
I'm not doing that and it'sbecause the motivation doesn't
make sense for that anymore.
So I do have to veer off.
But I do know that you know youhave to have the mirror moment
in the middle of the story wherethe protagonist goes from
reactive to proactive andthere's a change and they, you
(44:47):
know, come to some newunderstanding about themselves.
I know that moment has to exist.
I just don't necessarily knowwhat the events surrounding that
moment are going to be.
So I'm arguing with you becauseI think characters do veer off,
but it's because when you wroteout that initial event outline
you weren't necessarilyunderstanding your character's
(45:09):
motivations and development forthe story.
So there I'm off my soapbox nowokay, we'll let annis break the
tie here.
What's your perspective that youboth are right?
Speaker 1 (45:24):
oh, she is such a diplomat, not even because you
both talked about patterns.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
You both absolutely did that, but one of you wants
to come at the patternsorganically, whereas another of
you was like, oh look, I can seethe dots, let me work at
connecting them.
It's the same thing.
That's why a lot of times whenpeople have the plotter versus
pantser discussion or argument,I just sit quietly because
they're talking about the samestuff.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
Yeah, no, and you know what?
You're absolutely right, Ithink.
It's just you have to havestructure, otherwise your story
wanders and I think we've allwritten that story in the very
beginning of our writing journeyas well where you, you know,
your character, sits there andstares at their belly button for
an hour.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Well, and I do think sometimes it takes you, it takes
you some time to really findout who this character is,
because it's like you weretalking about Inez, with the
characters like motivation.
If, if you're picking somethinglike a trope, that is a trope
about motivation.
(46:24):
So say, like enemies to lovers.
I mean that's kind of abouttheir character, like who they
are and their motivation.
It's a little more emotionaland I don't know what I'm trying
to say here.
Then, for instance, meganwriting fantasy and me writing
mystery thriller.
(46:50):
Sometimes we are not looking atour characters hearts as much in
the initial phases.
We're more looking about thewho killed who, how did they do
it, what substance did they useand whose magic thingy goes
through which porthole too?
Oh, oh, dear greta, listen, myson has a boat, so I'm talking
about portholes.
It's not a bad word, okay,anyway, my point was that it's
(47:20):
not.
The books are not as um.
First rounds are often not aslike emotionally, motivationally
driven as a romance would be.
Yeah, so maybe that's why wesometimes struggle with
characters going awry and notwhere we expected them to.
But do you think that happensin romance as well, enos, that
(47:41):
the characters go awry.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (47:44):
They can and if they do.
That's why I think that if youare an outliner, then you catch
some of this before you start towrite, whereas if you are more
of a discovery writer, you writeit down, you think about it and
you might have to get all theway through to the end and come
back, and I really call it thosepeople cyclers, like they have
(48:06):
to come back and cycle, cycle,cycle.
So you've got to do it anyway.
It just some of the people.
It just doesn't make sense tothem to do it first.
They need to, they need to walkthrough it, and both ways are
absolutely fine.
I do not I do not begrudgeanyone for the way that they
produce their art, as long asthey get it done.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
Yeah, I love that.
It's going to happen at onepoint or another is your point,
yep, and I agree with you toothat understanding the patterns
it's kind of like learning yourscales and you know learning the
difference between a major anda minor and a diminished and an
augmented, and all those thingsthat make you a better musician.
It puts more tools in yourtoolbox when you go to create
(48:47):
something, and I think learningyour tropes is exactly that it's
putting more tools in yourtoolbox.
Speaker 3 (48:54):
Agreed.
And just because you study thisstuff and you learn it, it's
not going to disrupt the waythat you do art.
So if you start to studystructure and you do a diehard
panzer, it's not going to stopyou from being a panzer, it's
just going to make you better,period, period.
Speaker 2 (49:10):
Yeah, well, we are coming up on the end of our time
here I know this has been afabulous conversation.
We're going to have to have youon again and we're going to
talk more about craft and all ofthe things, but for now, why
don't you tell us a little bitmore about where our listeners
can find you and what you know,what they can sign up for?
Speaker 3 (49:33):
currently, I guess, as far as courses, what you have
running right now free 15 pageguideline- of how to write a
romance novel, the fivenecessary scenes that you need
if you're writing a romance orromantic subplot, and from there
(49:55):
I will then send you weekly,just short, helpful tips on how
to not just craft, but also abit on marketing, and you'll see
my courses in there, thecourses that we talked about.
You can access them all whenyou go there and you see what it
is that I'm talking about.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
Perfect, I'm going to going to go sign up right now.
Speaker 1 (50:17):
Didn't you tell us, before we started recording,
that you have a new, a newsomething that you're launching?
Tell us about that you'relaunching?
Speaker 3 (50:30):
tell us about that.
Yes, so at first I was just.
I was just happily justbreaking down all of this
information for people, and Ihad a podcast called Annette
Johnson Breaks it Down, but I'vesince stopped doing the podcast
.
I'm still doing the breakdowns,but I've stopped doing the
podcast because I've realizedthat I want to go really into
depth, and so what I'm in theprocess of developing is the
Romance Rights Club, kind oflike Fight Club, where I do more
(50:51):
in-depth dives, like I just didwith you guys on the hidden
identity trope, on the fakerelationship trope and tons more
.
So the Romance Rights Club iscoming soon it's not out yet,
maybe in May it'll be done whereyou can go and you can just
grab these tropes and likeliterally 20 pages is my norm
(51:14):
for explaining how these work,including with a full outline of
what I call a generic outlineof all the plot points that
you're going to need.
But they're very generic, soyou can take these plot points
and you can plug them into.
If you're doing a sciencefiction story, you can put them
on a ship.
If you're fiction story, youcan put them on a ship.
If you're doing historical, youcan put them on a carriage.
If you're doing contemporary,you can put them on a road trip,
(51:34):
whatever, but you'll have theoutline.
You'll have examples of whereyou can see this.
I come from TV and film so I useTV and film examples.
So you would see this in likeone of my favorites Cyrano de
Bergerac's story.
But because I'm a proud childof the 80s, I explained to you
if you remember the film Roxannewith Steve Martin and Daryl
(51:55):
Hannah, right, so I do it there.
Coming to America is anotherhidden identity trope with Eddie
Murphy as Prince Akeem.
80s baby, what can I tell you?
I break things down with someof my favorite movies, showing
you where were you going to hitall of these tropes and also how
they kind of um move themaround a little bit, but they're
(52:17):
all still there.
Then I talked to you about theuniversal fantasies of the
tropes, like why do readers loveit?
And then I give you some ideason the heartbeat moments that
you want to put in there thatyou can then pull out and use
for marketing.
Speaker 1 (52:36):
So yeah, 20 page long lectures that I hope people are
going to really enjoy because Ireally am having so much fun
writing them.
That's great.
That sounds amazing.
Speaker 2 (52:41):
And again I'll be signing up.
You're going to take all mymoney.
Speaker 1 (52:46):
Sounds sounds so good .
I know Sounds so good,Fantastic Yep.
So to all you listeners outthere, do run, don't walk to
Ines Johnson's website and checkall this stuff out.
And also, would you like us togive your book or book series a
(53:06):
shout out on the podcast If youwould just go down in the show
notes and find that littlebutton that says support the
show.
If you sponsor the show for aslittle as $3, we will tell the
world about it.
We will be so grateful.
Your support helps us pay forediting and hosting and lets us
know that you appreciate whatwe're doing.
(53:27):
As I said, the link is in theshow notes and thank you in
advance.
So until next time, keep yourstories rolling.
Hi everyone and welcome to the Author Wheel
podcast.
I'm Greta Boris, USA Todaybestselling mystery thriller
author.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
And I'm Megan Haskell , award-winning fantasy
adventure author.
Together we are the AuthorWheel.
I met today's guest a couple ofyears ago at a conference and
we've been meaning to have heron the show ever since.
Unfortunately, due to my owndisorganized contacts list, it
took us a while to actually gether here, but it was 100% worth
(00:27):
the wait.
Inez Johnson is a romancewriter and teacher with a
background in screenwriting.
That gives her a wealth ofinformation to share and the
skills to share it.
We talked about the patterns instory and the patterns in book
marketing and how she identifiesthe marketing trends and
studies the market each month tofind out what she wants to
(00:47):
write that fits within thetrends.
It's a truly insightfulconversation, so get ready to
take notes.
It's a good one.
But first, before we get intothat, greta, how's your week
going?
Speaker 1 (01:00):
It is flying by.
I'm telling you I do.
On the positive side, I do feel, though, that I've caught up
from vacation.
I'm just back to my normallevel of chaos instead of my
even more chaos on top of chaos,right series.
(01:24):
And I'm telling you it's reallya lot of fun to go back and
visit with those characters thatI haven't visited with in
several years, you know, yeah,yeah, really really enjoying
that.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
So our listeners know we are going to do a deep dive
onto Greta's process, or into,rather, greta's process on how
she's rewritten these books.
So I'm going to interview Gretaon a future episode, so stay
tuned for that.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Yeah, and I'm glad we haven't done it yet because I'm
still perfecting the process.
It's taken me about four booksto do it.
Yeah yeah.
The only other thing of interestin my life, I think, is that
and I'm kind of saying this toall you listeners because you
now are my accountability Ireally want to sit down this
week or early next week and planout the second quarter of the
(02:09):
year.
I realize I'm quite late, but,you know, better late than never
, and I'm trying to stick to ourclarify, simplify, implement
principles that I've been sobusy implementing.
I'm just having trouble gettingback to the other pieces of the
puzzle, so what about you?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Yeah, I feel that, I feel that hard.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
Well, you know what though I think it's on a little
pat ourselves on the back thing,it is because we did a lot of
clarifying and simplifying.
I believe that we are deep intothis implementing thing and
maybe, rather than beatingourselves up if we don't do it
quarterly, we recognize I mean,I kind of did it with a year in
(02:56):
mind and that it's good becauseI haven't run out of things to
do, that's for sure.
And I also don't feel like I'mrunning around like a chicken
with my head cut off, doingwrong things or silly things.
I'm doing things that I feelare good, yeah, and profitable
and in the right direction.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
So oh, that's great, that's great.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Well, on my side of the world, I actually just got
back from the LA Times Festivalof Books, which was such an
amazing event.
It's just incredible to bearound a crowd of people who are
there specifically to celebratebooks.
I mean, most of the otherevents that I typically do are,
you know, they're either sci-fi,fantasy, comic con conventions
(03:41):
or their local craft fairs orlocal small book fairs, and it's
just not quite the same vibe.
But the la times festival ofbooks is, first of all, it's
massive.
It's I you know I knew it tookover the entire usc campus, but
like it really takes over theentire, yeah, usc campus seeing
(04:01):
it is.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Oh, you can think, you can imagine it, but when you
see it you're like yeah, and.
And they say reading is dead.
They have not been to the latimes book fair.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
No no, it was.
It was an incredible event andso I'm hoping I'll get invited
back to do it again with thesame group.
Um, we just had a blast and weall worked together really well
and it was a lot of fun.
So I am hoping to make this anannual um, you know book event
that I do, so so that was fun.
But now I'm getting back to workand actually I have a new
(04:35):
secret not so secret, uh projectthat I'm doing with my friend,
rachel Renner, who is anaward-winning and best-selling
author.
Our books are supercomplimentary.
She writes in a very similarstyle to me.
Hers are a little bit spicier,a little bit more romance on her
, like regular series, butthey're portal fantasies and
(04:59):
they're just really good comps.
Plus, we're really good friends.
So, uh, yeah, we are puttingtogether a short story anthology
and I'm really excited about it.
We already have a title.
It's going to be called myths,magic and mayhem and it's going
to feature norse myths, retireddragons, escaped souls and magic
(05:20):
quills.
So it's going to be a lot offun and I'll have more
information on that in thefuture.
But that's my big exciting newsof the week.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
And we did interview Rachel on the podcast last year,
so we could put that, if weremember, we can put a link to
that episode in the show notesand if we forget, just go scroll
back and look for Rachel Renner.
It was a great interview.
She's really fun and her booksare awesome.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Yeah, I think she was in season one.
I think she was one of our, ormaybe early season two, but I
think she was season one.
Anyway, yeah, I'll try and findthat link.
I cannot tell you.
Yeah, anyway, now on, for wehave a shout out for our first
subscriber sponsor.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
So exciting, so many thanks and I mean that from the
bottom of my heart to Maddie DalRimple of the Indie Author
Podcast.
She has launched a coachingprogram that teaches authors how
to pitch and perform onpodcasts, and I actually
participated in it.
I had a pod pro author coachingsession and I learned a lot.
(06:34):
So I will just say, if you'reat all nervous about going on
podcasts or thinking aboutstarting your own podcast, I
would totally do this.
Maddie will encourage, notdiscourage, you.
I really came away feelingexcited about making some
changes to tackle my next onlineopportunity.
Maddie is a real pro.
(06:55):
So thank you, maddie, forsponsoring the show.
Her link is in the notes, andnow on with the show.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Today we are absolutely thrilled to have Inez
Johnson on the show with us.
I met Inez about a year or twoago I can't even quite remember
now, but it's been a bit andI've wanted to have her on the
show forever and unfortunately,due to my own procrastination,
never quite made the offer.
So we're excited to finallybring her on.
(07:24):
It's gonna be a really funconversation.
So quick bio here.
Ines Johnson is a lover offairy tales, folklore and
mythology.
She spends her days reimaginingthe stories of old in a modern
world and writes books wheredamsels cause the distress,
princesses wield swords and momssave the world.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Love that Woohoo.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Aside from being a writer, professional reader and
teacher, inez is a very badBuddhist.
She sits in Sangha I think Isaid that right Sangha each week
, and while others aremeditating and getting their Zen
on, she's contemplating how touse the teachings to strengthen
her plots and charactermotivations.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
I love that too.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
I know that's great too.
Basically, we love your bio andwe love all things about you.
This is amazing.
Inez lives outside WashingtonDC with her two little sidekicks
, who are growing up way toofast, and I can a 100% relate to
that as well.
So, inez, we're so glad to haveyou on the show and welcome.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
Thank you so much.
I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
This is a long time coming, and so we're very
thrilled to have you.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
We are.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Thanks guys, I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
So why don't we start and just with our usual?
Tell us a little bit more aboutyour journey into writing and
publishing and all things books.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Well, I was born storyteller.
I was born into a funk band, isa bass player and I can still
remember his big greenScooby-Doo psychedelic van that
we would be in the back of as hewould drive around to various
gigs.
But so I grew up.
My first storyteller was musicand I remember my dad just
(09:17):
explaining to me how.
You know, the bass had its ownbeat and that was the basis
story.
The drums had their own beatand the vocals had their own
beats, and that just has alwaysstuck with me how stories are
layered.
And my family is huge onlibraries.
That was the treat you get togo to the library and you get
any book that you want.
So I took all that and I grewup.
(09:40):
I was a child, a very proudchild of the 80s, and so I loved
my after school specials and mySaturday morning cartoons.
You know when cartoons andchildren's television, they had
stories, they had morals toteach us.
It wasn't like any type ofpolitics or anything like that,
and that's what I thought storywas.
So that when I came into thisworld, I entered the world of
(10:01):
storytelling professionally as ascreenwriter.
That's what my bachelor'sdegree is in and that's what I
wanted to do?
I wanted to be the next SesameStreet Workshop the makers of
Sesame Street.
Oh, that's amazing, yeah.
And somehow I wound up writingvery smutty stories Not for
Sesame Street.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Sesame Street to smut yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Yeah, okay, that's your bio title when you get
around to writing your memoir.
Sesame Street to Smut.
Yeah, yeah, hey, that's yourbio title when you get around to
writing your memoir.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
Sesame Street to Smut .
Speaker 1 (10:33):
I love it.
So were the screenplays thatyou wrote um smutty too no, they
were not.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
I worked for National Geographic and then for
Children's Television.
Okay, oh, wow, yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Just wanted to clarify that that we're not
talking to a writer of pornmovies or anything like that
here on the show.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
No, that would be too much story yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
How long were you a screenwriter then, before you
wrote your first novel?
Speaker 3 (11:07):
So I worked in television.
So pretty much when I was incollege I started to work.
I my freshman year I overheardsomeone one of the guidance
counselors telling like we'rerating a student like you don't
have an internship yet, youbetter get that started.
You think you're going to havea job in this student.
Like you don't have aninternship yet, you better get
that started.
You think you're gonna have ajob in this industry?
You need to have an internship.
And I was like, oh no, I don'thave an internship.
(11:30):
I was a freshman senior.
What did I do?
I went out and I found aninternship, but that was one of
the best things that I didbecause I had an internship
every single year that I was inschool so that by the time I
graduated, people were werecalling me.
I didn't have to call people.
So I worked first.
I always worked in television.
I never worked in like film orHollywood and I worked like I
(11:52):
said.
I worked for National Geographictelevision and if you remember
National Geographic, they hadwhat they call their blue chip
documentaries, which were wherethere were just animals and
there were no people.
And that's when I learned thisword animals and there were no
people.
And that's when I learned thisword anthropomorphizing where
you had to give the animalshuman-like characteristics in
order to tell the story.
Those animals aren't aren'tthinking about oh no, the
(12:13):
winter's gonna be harsh.
They're not thinking procreate.
But that's where I that's whereI really started to hone my
chops is being in those writersrooms where those really crazy
smart people were talking abouthow to tell these stories of
these animals.
So I did that.
(12:34):
I worked at the DiscoveryChannel for a brief stint.
Then I went and I worked forthe Black Family Channel where I
wrote children's media.
I loved the Saturday morningcartoons.
I basically started to workdoing things like that.
Kind of had my little SesameWorkshop little dream come true.
So literally as soon as I was,before I even left school, I was
(12:54):
already working and I workedactively in television until
maybe 2009, maybe.
And then I started to.
I got really into teaching andas I was teaching wasn't working
as much in television.
I would do a little bit here, alittle bit like a small project
(13:17):
here, a small project there.
But I'd started to writesomewhere around then and I had
just gotten bitten by the bookbecause I love story, like when
my dad told me about the layers.
It just struck something in meand I started to understand the
structure of screenplays and thestructure of how to make people
(13:38):
feel things with moving images.
And then I was like, well, I'mwriting this stuff, I should be
able to make them feel thingsand do things and want to design
things with the words.
So I just took everything thatI learned in music and in
television and then justtranslated that into novel
writing.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
She was more opera, so it was the classics and all
that.
But I agree with you, she wouldalso teach and I would be
upstairs and I'd be listening toall her students singing all
the songs from all the musicalsat the time.
And it's all story.
It is set to music and somebodyhad bought me that Peter and
(14:19):
the Wolf, which is a classical,and the oboe is one animal and
the flute is another animal andall the voices, and I think it's
a fabulous way to teachchildren.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Is that musical morphine?
No, animusical morphine, thatsounds like a drug.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
I don't recommend that on the podcast.
But this is a quick rabbittrail before we get back to our
normal questions.
But do you find because I feellike this is true for me that
the language itself, as you'rewriting your novels, has a
(15:02):
musical quality and like, if youwrite a sentence that doesn't
sound right, it could begrammatically correct, it could
be all the things, but it justdrives you up a tree and you
have to fix it?
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Yeah, it's not only that, but you start to get into
just like you were saying aboutthe oboe and the flute, like if
a character is a flute and thenthey all of a sudden make a bass
sound.
It's wrong and you want to goback and you want to change that
tone for it to strike the rightnote.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
So yeah, I love that too.
I do think sometimes there's alot of things that can be taught
practically about writing, andpeople can become excellent
writers all different ways.
But I love hearing about peoplewith a musical background
because I always think it givesthem a little, a little lyrical
step up.
That is very hard to teach.
(15:53):
It's just something you got inyour bones.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
True, but there's patterns to music.
Like some people can't readmusic, but they can hear those
patterns.
They can create those patternsthemselves, and that's to me
what storytelling is can hearthose patterns, they can create
those patterns themselves, andthat's to me what storytelling
is.
It's patterns, and if you cansit down and understand, if you
can study the patterns, if youcan understand them, if you can
try to twist them and turn themin different types of ways, that
(16:17):
is art.
There's a process and thenthere's the artistry that you
put on top of the process.
And because I taught artists, Itaught screenwriters and video
editors and sound designers.
I think there's a really uniquetalent in people who are
teaching other artists, becausethere's this duality of well,
what are you grading?
(16:39):
Do you just prefer that person'sthe way that they art as
opposed to the way that thatother person arts?
At the end of the day, like ifyou're teaching painting, like
red and blue make purple, that'sthe only way you're going to
get it.
But one student might decide toput a little bit of white in
there, another student mightdecide to put a little yellow in
(16:59):
there, and that's the artistry.
You showed me the competencyRed and blue, purple, but light
purple, darker purple, a purplewith with umber tones.
That's the artistry and I thinkwe can start to separate that
out, because people in ourindustry you hear people talk
about oh I can't plot, I can'toutline, that's going to ruin it
(17:20):
for me and I'm like you'regoing to do it anyway.
You're just not writing downbeforehand that you're outlining
, but you are following apattern and I just think it's so
important to study thosepatterns, to get stronger, to
build up your craft.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Yeah, that's a beautiful way of saying it.
I do love that.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
So when did you publish your first novel?
Speaker 3 (17:46):
December 2014,.
I published an erotic,dystopian male, male, female
amalgamation of a whole bunch ofthings that I thought was
science fiction and itapparently wasn't science
fiction.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
No, it wasn't, no not even slightly.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
I didn't know, I didn't know.
And then the next thing that Idid is I published.
After that, in the spring, Ipublished one of my favorite
books that I wrote, pumpkin, aCinder Mama Story where I retold
the Cinderella tale, butstarring a single mother.
Oh, I love that and there was alittle bit of magical realism
in it, but it was contemporary.
I was all over the place.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
But I think that that's so common for and I don't
even want to say beginningwriters, because that's that's
not quite.
I mean, you could be have beenwriting for years and years and
years, so you're not reallybeginning anymore, but for first
novels or the first few novels,I feel like you know they kind
of publishers.
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's,that's so common.
You kind of have to workthrough that, like I'm going to
(18:52):
throw everything in the kitchensink into my story, cause I love
it yeah, that's what we do andstart to get a little bit more
focused.
So, um, I'm normally we go intoroadblocks now, but I'm going
to just ask you, how have you,or has your career, progressed
from everything in the kitchensink to a more focused genre or
(19:15):
marketing or I don't even knowwhat you want to call it, but a
more focused author career?
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Well, I'm going to lead us into roadblocks with
that answer, because I keepcoming up to this roadblock.
I know what the market wants.
The market tells me what itwants.
I can see the market moving.
If you're studying the patterns, you can see what's happening
right.
But do I write a hockey romance?
No, I decide I wanna write.
(19:40):
I have to go and set that grainand do something completely
different, because that's thestory that is dying to get out
of me and I have to tell it.
So I keep doing that over andover again, but I but it's, but
I'm, I'm.
I'm so blessed and lucky andthankful that I do.
I am a prolific writer and Ican work on more than one thing
(20:02):
at a time.
So I'm always writing some bookthat is in my heart that just
has to come out.
But, but I start my day writingwhat I know is to market, and
then, with the time left over inmy writing brain, I will write
the thing that just has to comeout of me.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Oh, that is so interesting and it's really
really wise.
Yeah, Because you know it'slike any job, right, the reason
anybody gets into any job.
Well, no, I take that back.
You don't go get a job atCostco because you feel it's the
thing of your heart, that'sjust for money, but maybe some
(20:40):
people do.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Not me.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
But I guess the point being is that, like, every job
has its fun things and it's notfun things, and if we're going
to be professionals, so it'slike sometimes we talk to
writers and they're like theprofessional, you need to know
what the market way, you know,and you don't ever get writer's
block because this is a job andblah, blah, blah.
But yet I love what you'resaying.
(21:03):
It is also an art, and in orderto do it, we have to nurture
our artist's soul, and so Ifinding that balance is really
critical, and I love how youfound it by writing both.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
So I have a question, though, for writing both,
because I personally, I mean Ican write one thing and edit a
different thing.
That's possible for me, butwriting two things, I'm not sure
my brain has that capacity.
I mean, to be fair, I'm notsure I've ever really tried, but
yeah, it seems more challenging.
But how do you break up yourday more specifically to make
(21:40):
sure that you're feeding bothsides of that professional
creative?
Speaker 3 (21:46):
soul.
My brain prefers to write onebook and edit another book.
So I do prefer because thatfeels very balanced to me If I'm
just writing, I'm missingediting.
If I'm just editing, I'mmissing drafting.
So my brain prefers thatbalance.
But another trick that I have isthat I will start my day
(22:06):
typically in my office and Iwill do whatever is the market.
Mostly we'll do whatever is themarket thing that I need to do.
That I know is going to sell,but I also it's this to eat the
frog time, like the thing that Idon't want to do.
I'm going to do that first andthen I will either go, depending
upon the weather, I will go sitdownstairs on my living room
(22:28):
couch, and then that just changeof venue, that much will let my
brain know oh okay, we're in adifferent place, we're in a
different time, let's dosomething different.
Or I will go out to a localcoffee shop and I will write
there.
So and I always have veryspecific goals, because that
works really well for me I don't, I'm not a by word count person
, because the goal then is toget as many words as possible,
(22:51):
and I literally will break apartcontractions and add adjective
and adverb just to get the wordcount.
So I can't have that word countgoal.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
I need to have a chapter goal because a chapter
is a contained thing.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
For me, a chapter has a goal, motivation, conflict.
It moves along the plot.
So I have, depending upon howmuch I'm writing, I might do two
chapters in the morning for theto market thing, and then I
might do one to two chaptersafter that, either later in the
morning or in the afternoon.
Sometimes I will go like whenmy kids were younger and they
(23:28):
needed to get out of the houseto get homework done.
We maybe go to the library andI'd write, or we go sit at
Panera Bread and I'd write whilethey would do their work.
So I'm having that division.
That and having that divisionand having a very specific goal
works the best for me.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Oh, that's great.
Yeah, I'm with you on thechapter goal.
I've tried the word count goaland for some reason, I just get
really stressed.
It gives me anxiety instead ofme feeling like, oh, this is a,
like you said.
A chapter is like a containedthing.
So I felt like I createdsomething.
(24:04):
Yes, when I wrote a chapter,but it was just words.
It was yeah, me and math, wedon't do letters.
Yes, when I wrote a chapter,but it was just words.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
It was yeah, me and math.
You do letters, not numbers.
I get you yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
I know I do love that , so would you say that that has
been your biggest roadblock?
Then is this nurturing both theartist in you and the
businesswoman in you at the sametime?
Speaker 3 (24:29):
No, not the nurturing the artist and the
businesswoman.
Nurturing well, maybe, yeah,nurturing the artist and the
businesswoman, but veryspecifically writing that
balance of writing to marketversus writing from the heart,
because sometimes what's comingfrom my heart is not to market.
Whenever I'm looking, I, everyquarter, at the very least every
(24:49):
quarter I sit down and I do adeep dive of what does the
market want right now.
How has it shifted?
I go look at the bestsellerscharts and just do a serious
deep dive where I'm taking noteson covers, taking notes on
titles, I'm looking at tropeswhat are people putting in their
blurbs?
What's at the top, what's atthe bottom, what are readers
saying?
And then I then I check with myheart.
(25:10):
I'm like, okay, like last lot acouple of quarters ago it was
bully romance like, can you doit?
Can you do it?
My heart was like, no, I don'twant to write a bully romance.
But at the same time I was like, but I can write enemies to
lovers.
I just can't go to that extreme.
Just like now, like hockey isso popular.
And I was like, can you do it?
Can you do it?
I was like, no, I don't want towrite a hockey romance, but I
(25:35):
can still write like.
One of the things that I thinkis working with hockey romance
is that all those men are on ateam and that's very attractive.
So I can do some kind of a teamfound family kind of thing, but
not necessarily hockey, becauseI think all that padding is
just too much.
You have to take off so muchstuff.
I write slutty books.
You have to take off so muchstuff and it's sweaty stuff.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
There's also the missing teeth, and you know,
yeah, hockey's not my sporteither.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
I did see it.
Some people are starting to dosoccer books and that's getting
exciting.
So I'm like, oh, soccer.
Oh, there you go Love it yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
So jump on that early .
Speaker 1 (26:17):
What about a fire station?
I don't know Firemen, everybodyknows they're hot, literally no
pun intended.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Literally.
Maybe Xbox players are now in afire all in the same ladder.
Maybe, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Love it or you know, firemen are always like
weightlifting and stuff fire.
They could start a team andthen they could play against
another, the police or somethinglike that it's right.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
yeah, the uh firefighters versus the police
in the annual baseball softballgame.
There you go.
There you go Done.
We just wrote your book for you, thank you I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
So you segued then from your science fiction
fantasy into romance.
When did you like finally sayto yourself okay, Inez, get it
together, I am writing romance.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Oh, I was always romance.
I just did not understandsubgenres.
I thought that that was thesubgenre, that romance was the
subgenre of fiction, and that'sall that I needed to understand.
And that was wrong.
So at some point, maybe two,three years into it, because I'd
written that dystopian that wasnot a sci-fi, I'd written that
(27:35):
contemporary but also hadmagical realism, then I wrote
paranormal, but it was allparanormal, set inspired by
Christmas stories, don't ask me.
Oh, I love that.
I just kept going all over theplace, just writing what I
wanted to write.
And when I started to see thatthe readers who would email me
(27:56):
were not the same people andthey would talk specifically
about certain series of booksand not about the others, I was
like, what's going on here?
These are all romances.
Why aren't you reading all ofthem?
What's going on here?
These are all romances.
Why aren't you reading all ofthem?
And that's what it took for meto understand that there's
readers that like paranormalromance, there's readers that
like science fiction romance,there's readers that like
(28:18):
contemporary romance, and theneven within contemporary and
paranormal there's differences.
So it was the readers thattaught me, because if there's
kissing in it, I'm going to readit.
But readers taught me that no,I want this type of kiss in this
kind of place and I want him tosay this specifically.
So that's when I I air quotesgot my act together and I, I, I
(28:39):
separated myself.
So, um, and I separated myselfbased upon the steam level.
So if the books were steamy,then they went under the Ines
Johnson pen name.
If the were steamy, then theywent under the Ines Johnson pen
name.
If the books were sweet, thenthey went under the Sinead
Johnson pen name, and that's themost boundaries that I have.
I did try to do like a thirdway split where it was just
(29:01):
purely erotic romance and thenlike purely fantasy or
paranormal romance.
I tried to do that split butthose readers were like, yeah,
we'll read both of those.
It's just the sweet stuff thatwe're not interested in.
So that's how I made thedecisions.
I let the readers tell me.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
So one of the things we started talking about before
we started recording was howyour marketing is actually in
your craft, and so when you talkabout marketing, it's in a lot
of ways inseparable from theactual story.
So can you talk a little bitmore about that?
I mean, obviously, separatingthe pen names is a big component
(29:38):
of that to make sure you'remeeting reader expectations.
But what do you do specifically, or what are you looking for
specifically, when you'reputting the marketing in your
book and then pulling themarketing out of your book?
Speaker 3 (29:50):
So let's go back on my journey.
So I learned that romance is acategory of fiction.
And then in romance, then youhave subcategories where it
could be paranormal,contemporary science fiction,
mysteries, thriller, suspense,we could go on right.
And then within that there'stropes.
There's tropes like enemies tolovers, there's tropes like us
(30:11):
as romance right.
So I did deep dives on tropesbecause I started to see the
pattern.
A lot, I'm sure we all do so.
You see, a trope is a pattern.
It's something that people wantrepeated over and over again.
If it's an enemies to lovers,these two people, for some
reason they're at each other'sthroats.
But and enemies to lovers,these two people, for some
reason they're at each other'sthroats.
But there's some reason thatthey adhere, that they have to
(30:32):
stick together for this romance.
And I was reading an articlewhere someone was looking at the
enemies to lovers trope inShakespeare and they called it a
merry war.
And I just love that termbecause that's what is pretty
much going on Within this tropeof a merry war.
Enemies to lovers or oppositesattract.
At some point the, the hero isgoing to insist that they try.
(30:54):
Whatever it is that they'redoing his way like.
If it's an office, if it's an,if it's a romance uh,
contemporary office romance withthe with the enemies to lovers
trope.
You see how we go down thatladder.
Then at some point the hero isgoing to say we're going to do
this assignment my way and it itgoes wrong.
And then another point, thehero is going to say no, no, no,
(31:14):
no, we're going to do it my way, and it goes wrong.
But then once they start towork together, things start to
work out.
That always happens in enemiesto lovers trope.
If you look at another trope,like, for example, the hidden
identity trope, if you look atum another trope, like, for
example, the hidden identitytrope, in a hidden identity
trope somebody is pretending tobe someone they're not like.
One of my favorites is whenit's royalty and the person who
(31:37):
is the princess or the prince ispretending to be a commoner and
at some point someone's gonnawreck.
While they're pretending withthe love interest, someone's
gonna come up and recognize themlike you're such and they're
gonna play it off like oh, no,no.
So there's these close calls.
When you have a hidden identitytrope, even if it's not a royal
person, there's always going tobe a close call.
It's always going to be thatthe the the love interest falls
(31:59):
in love with the person who'shiding because they see behind
the mask, they see that person'strue identity.
That's who they fall in lovewith.
And there's all this frictionbecause the person who's hiding
is pretending to be who they arenot and it's confusing the love
interest and they're like Idon't get it.
I keep thinking that I love you, but then you do this right,
(32:20):
and then at some point the maskcomes off.
But that's a moment of betrayal.
How could you hide this from me?
And then they come backtogether.
If you love a trope and you keeplooking at it, you're gonna see
patterns, and I love patterns.
All that just to answer yourquestion of once you see the
patterns over and over again andyou see what readers are
(32:41):
looking for, then you can say ahwell, I know I'm gonna be using
the hidden identity trope and Iknow that the universal fantasy
thank you, thea Thora Taylorthe universal fantasy of the
hidden identity trope is thatthe love interest can see past
the mask to who you really are.
And don't we all want someone tobe able to see past that mask
(33:01):
and see who we truly are?
So if that's the universalfantasy.
Then you need to put moments inthere, what I call heartbeat
moments.
You need to put the heartbeatmoments in there where maybe
he's, if she's the one that'shiding he leans in close and
he's looking at her, he's gazingat her so, so intensely.
And he asked her the questionof where you can tell he sees
(33:23):
who she truly is and you see, on, like things like TikTok and
Instagram, where it'll saysomething like when he leans
over you in the doorway and helooks deeply into your eyes and
you feel like he can see intoyour soul.
That's marketing copy.
But that marketing copy camefrom that moment that you had to
put there because of a trope,because you put it in an office
romance, that's, in acontemporary romance, so it just
(33:44):
builds itself up and down.
But you have to realize thepatterns in order to put them
there and then pull the patternsback out that.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
No, that's really really good.
You know, we have, uh, tried to.
We talk about trips, thatneither megan nor I write
romance, but we always haveromance in our stories and I
think most people have some formof romance in their stories.
But tropes are, they're in andthey're in every kind, even
literary fiction.
That that shows and I.
(34:13):
But what I think is so fun abouttalking to a romance writer is
that they just don't make anybones about it.
It's like here that here it isand here is what works, because
this is the way that yourreaders are going to engage and
I think it's taking.
One of the things I loved aboutwhat you said is that when
(34:36):
you're baking the marketing intoyour story, it's like as if you
were baking some treat for yourfamily.
You want to please them.
You want like, oh, my daughterloves chocolate, or oh, my son
loves bananas, and you're bakingsomething in knowing that
(34:57):
that's what's going to tempt theperson you're making it for.
And I think that's wheresometimes all of us, as early
writers, miss the boat.
We forget that we're creating atreat for someone else and we
just make what we want.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
I wonder if this is a lot, too, about women.
Well, women will say this iswhat I want, this is what makes
me happy, and then someone willcome and say no, no, no, no, no,
I'm not going to give youchocolate, I'm going to give you
a licorice or beef jerky.
And then they don't come back.
They're no, that said, that'snot what I want.
I think romance readers arevery vocal and I think that
(35:32):
romance writers because we allare readers we listen and we do
it and we and we put surprisesin it too, because even if
you're leading them all alongthat pattern, maybe sometimes
you zig, but if you zig, youcome right back to that line, so
you kind of like oh, and thenyou, then you delight us again
by going back on it, whereasanother person again they might
(35:54):
hand you beef jerky when youwant chocolate, they never
produce the chocolate.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Yeah, I know, and just beef jerky muffins sounds
terrible.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
Oh gosh.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
Beef jerky dipped in chocolate.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
I think that's always a bacon thing.
You're talking to a non-meateater here, so it just all
sounds bad to me.
Oh, yeah, yeah, but that is areally the way you just
described.
That is really good and itmakes me want to start writing
right now.
I want to just like okay, bye,inez, I'm going to go write.
(36:30):
It's so good.
Tell listeners if you don'tmind a little bit about the
courses you have available,because I was looking on your
website and it was like oh, thatlooks good.
Oh, I want to take that.
That looks amazing.
That looks amazing.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
So let me preface this by saying that I started to
teach when I had kids and Ineeded to slow down and I
couldn't be available 24 hours aday because, working at
National Geographic, I had crewsall over the world in every
time frame and there was no suchthing as a nine to five.
So pretty soon after I hadchildren, I was like I don't
(37:07):
want to leave this industry, butthis cannot be my full-time
income anymore, and that's whenI started to teach.
I love teaching.
I taught for 15 yearsScreenwriting, video editing,
history of media, loved it, butat some point I burned out.
I was just tired of teaching.
The quality of student changedas well, and there were just
(37:28):
students that just didn't reallywant to be there.
I don't understand why they'rethere.
Anyway, I burned out and I wasburned out for maybe three years
and then I started missing it.
And you could tell I startedmissing it because if you came
up to me in a conference and youasked me a question, I would
talk your ear off and then Imight email you with some other
information, because I justwanted to explain and explain.
(37:50):
So the courses came about when Isaw that I was telling people
the same things and I was like,well, here, let me just write it
down for you.
And I wrote it down and itbecame the Page Turner Pacing
Course how to Write aBenchworthy Novel in 21 Days.
Because, as I said, I'm aprolific writer because I come
from screenwriting.
So, again, in screenwriting wedidn't know there was no such
(38:13):
thing as a plotter versuspantser.
Like, a plot is the structureof the story.
So I didn't understand whatpeople were saying.
But they were saying pantsers,they write by the seat of their
pants.
I was like, okay, cool, butthere's still a structure.
So I sat down and I wrote this,basically a manifesto, to
explain to people how I go aboutwriting.
And remember I said I'm usuallywriting one to two chapters a
(38:35):
day.
Those chapters are all plotpoints.
Like I will start, I will write.
I usually write dualperspective, so I'll write the
ordinary world of the hero,that's chapter one, the ordinary
world of the hero and that'schapter two.
And then I keep going back andforth.
There's a meet cute.
There's a reason that theycan't be together, then another
reason the reason that they arethat they have to be together in
the book.
And then we go into act two,where there's the falling in
(38:55):
love moments, and then there's amoment where they're like I
can't live without this person.
But oh no, here comes a bad guyand now it's the dark night.
These patterns happen all overagain and I just took the
patterns and I put them in 21days and it's pretty much how I
(39:16):
write all of my books in 21 days.
And that became the patientrepacing course how to write a
binge-worthy novel in 21 days,and from there that's.
So.
That was far better than Icould have ever imagined it
doing, and people started askingme more questions.
They started asking me becausethey knew I wrote both clean and
wholesome sweet romance and Ialso write really dirty, smutty
romance.
And they asked well, how do youdo this?
And so then I wrote two moremanifestos.
(39:37):
I wrote my writing dirty and mywriting sweet courses, which
takes you on how to emotionallywrite.
Because people also would askme how do you keep writing all
these sex scenes?
You have all these books andhow do you?
Aren't all the sex scenes thesame.
Like what are you talking about?
They're never the same Because,again, the way that I saw
(39:58):
things, that the love scenesalways came there was always a
sectional awakening journey andthe love scenes always come out
of character development.
So one of the examples that Ilove to give is like if the
heroine of your book is anassassin and she's falling for
this, maybe she's falling for anordinary guy, maybe she's
falling for another assassin,but the first time that they
come together to make love,she's like I have to be on top
(40:20):
and she has to see the door.
Okay, probably doesn't trusthim so much, but then they go
through some more ups and downsand trials and tribulations.
The next time that they makelove, she doesn't have to be on
top and she doesn't have to seethe door.
That's character development.
And guess what?
They're going to touch eachother differently.
And that's how every sex sceneshould be.
It should come out of thecharacters and how they are
(40:43):
changing and evolving.
Because if you're just writing,he inserted tab A into slot B.
Yeah, I'm going to skip pastthat too.
It's not interesting, oh mygosh.
So that's what the writingjourney course became, and I
also wrote the writings, becausepeople were like, well, how can
you write these books that areall this tension filled and
there's only kissing?
And I was like, let me show youhow I did it.
(41:04):
So I wrote those two and thenit just kept going somewhat.
I started doing direct salesabout two years ago and once
again someone asked how are youdoing this?
And I literally wrote aPowerPoint and I was like, here,
this is how I do, I'm doing it.
And then I was like this is acourse.
So I put that up and that's thecourse, and I just keep going.
Now people are asking me abouttropes and literally someone
(41:24):
asked me about the hiddenidentity trope and I was like,
oh it's.
It's the person falling in lovewith the truth, with the true
essence, while they're trying tohide their, their, their,
behind this false identity.
And I literally the next day,wrote 20 pages explaining this.
I was like, here you go.
Oh, this is a course, that'show it happens.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
Well, I love that because I think what you're
doing is you.
You seem to have the ability tobreak down your own process
into a way that is that iseasily digestible by other
writers, authors, people whowant to learn story, want to
learn writing technique, and soforth and I love that because
you are a teacher and it comesfrom that teaching experience
(42:08):
and now I need to go take allyour courses.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
You know what I think it is too.
I mean, is that you are apattern person.
Yeah, you see patterns.
I mean, you're just wired thatway.
And so I, and I do think thatthat's a lot of the problem when
people first begin writingnovels is that they don't see
the forest for the trees.
(42:34):
They're just wandering throughthis world and they're not
exactly there.
You know one of my forgive melisteners if you say this, but
one of my least favorite thingsI hear writers say is oh, my
characters.
Just, you know, I had itplanned and they just led me in
a different direction.
I'm like, seriously, they arein your head, you have control.
(42:57):
I just don't.
I mean, but I do understandwhat they're saying in one sense
of the word, but but I alsothink that it's.
It is that pattern thing andsometimes your characters
surprise you and I love that.
That's great.
But still it's thatunderstanding that stories have
(43:18):
to have a certain structure init that isn't formulaic.
I mean it could be, but itisn't necessarily formulaic.
It's something that givesreaders a place to grab onto and
that makes them want to read it.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
See, I will say, I'm going to argue with you for a
second here, Greta.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
Poor Inez.
Yeah, just sit back and drinkyour coffee, inez.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
I do have.
I mean, I think having thatsense of structure, having that
sense of plot and the key beatsto the story, of the story that
you're trying to tell, whateverthat is, is very important.
And I think, for the quoteunquote pancers or discovery
writers amongst us, I think thatthat's a little bit more maybe
ingrained in our heads.
(44:04):
But for me, like if I went andthrew and wrote and what I would
consider a traditional outline,which is to say, you know,
heroine does a, then goes to b,then you know, does c, and then
there's the you know like, whereyou actually um outline the
events of the story, like thespecific things that your, your
protagonist, is going to do.
(44:26):
For me I will get to pointswhere the character is like no,
I'm not doing that and it'sbecause the motivation doesn't
make sense for that anymore.
So I do have to veer off.
But I do know that you know youhave to have the mirror moment
in the middle of the story wherethe protagonist goes from
reactive to proactive andthere's a change and they, you
(44:47):
know, come to some newunderstanding about themselves.
I know that moment has to exist.
I just don't necessarily knowwhat the events surrounding that
moment are going to be.
So I'm arguing with you becauseI think characters do veer off,
but it's because when you wroteout that initial event outline
you weren't necessarilyunderstanding your character's
(45:09):
motivations and development forthe story.
So there I'm off my soapbox nowokay, we'll let annis break the
tie here.
What's your perspective that youboth are right?
Speaker 1 (45:24):
oh, she is such a diplomat, not even because you
both talked about patterns.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
You both absolutely did that, but one of you wants
to come at the patternsorganically, whereas another of
you was like, oh look, I can seethe dots, let me work at
connecting them.
It's the same thing.
That's why a lot of times whenpeople have the plotter versus
pantser discussion or argument,I just sit quietly because
they're talking about the samestuff.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
Yeah, no, and you know what?
You're absolutely right, Ithink.
It's just you have to havestructure, otherwise your story
wanders and I think we've allwritten that story in the very
beginning of our writing journeyas well where you, you know,
your character, sits there andstares at their belly button for
an hour.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Well, and I do think sometimes it takes you, it takes
you some time to really findout who this character is,
because it's like you weretalking about Inez, with the
characters like motivation.
If, if you're picking somethinglike a trope, that is a trope
about motivation.
(46:24):
So say, like enemies to lovers.
I mean that's kind of abouttheir character, like who they
are and their motivation.
It's a little more emotionaland I don't know what I'm trying
to say here.
Then, for instance, meganwriting fantasy and me writing
mystery thriller.
(46:50):
Sometimes we are not looking atour characters hearts as much in
the initial phases.
We're more looking about thewho killed who, how did they do
it, what substance did they useand whose magic thingy goes
through which porthole too?
Oh, oh, dear greta, listen, myson has a boat, so I'm talking
about portholes.
It's not a bad word, okay,anyway, my point was that it's
(47:20):
not.
The books are not as um.
First rounds are often not aslike emotionally, motivationally
driven as a romance would be.
Yeah, so maybe that's why wesometimes struggle with
characters going awry and notwhere we expected them to.
But do you think that happensin romance as well, enos, that
(47:41):
the characters go awry.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (47:44):
They can and if they do.
That's why I think that if youare an outliner, then you catch
some of this before you start towrite, whereas if you are more
of a discovery writer, you writeit down, you think about it and
you might have to get all theway through to the end and come
back, and I really call it thosepeople cyclers, like they have
(48:06):
to come back and cycle, cycle,cycle.
So you've got to do it anyway.
It just some of the people.
It just doesn't make sense tothem to do it first.
They need to, they need to walkthrough it, and both ways are
absolutely fine.
I do not I do not begrudgeanyone for the way that they
produce their art, as long asthey get it done.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
Yeah, I love that.
It's going to happen at onepoint or another is your point,
yep, and I agree with you toothat understanding the patterns
it's kind of like learning yourscales and you know learning the
difference between a major anda minor and a diminished and an
augmented, and all those thingsthat make you a better musician.
It puts more tools in yourtoolbox when you go to create
(48:47):
something, and I think learningyour tropes is exactly that it's
putting more tools in yourtoolbox.
Speaker 3 (48:54):
Agreed.
And just because you study thisstuff and you learn it, it's
not going to disrupt the waythat you do art.
So if you start to studystructure and you do a diehard
panzer, it's not going to stopyou from being a panzer, it's
just going to make you better,period, period.
Speaker 2 (49:10):
Yeah, well, we are coming up on the end of our time
here I know this has been afabulous conversation.
We're going to have to have youon again and we're going to
talk more about craft and all ofthe things, but for now, why
don't you tell us a little bitmore about where our listeners
can find you and what you know,what they can sign up for?
Speaker 3 (49:33):
currently, I guess, as far as courses, what you have
running right now free 15 pageguideline- of how to write a
romance novel, the fivenecessary scenes that you need
if you're writing a romance orromantic subplot, and from there
(49:55):
I will then send you weekly,just short, helpful tips on how
to not just craft, but also abit on marketing, and you'll see
my courses in there, thecourses that we talked about.
You can access them all whenyou go there and you see what it
is that I'm talking about.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
Perfect, I'm going to going to go sign up right now.
Speaker 1 (50:17):
Didn't you tell us, before we started recording,
that you have a new, a newsomething that you're launching?
Tell us about that you'relaunching?
Speaker 3 (50:30):
tell us about that.
Yes, so at first I was just.
I was just happily justbreaking down all of this
information for people, and Ihad a podcast called Annette
Johnson Breaks it Down, but I'vesince stopped doing the podcast
.
I'm still doing the breakdowns,but I've stopped doing the
podcast because I've realizedthat I want to go really into
depth, and so what I'm in theprocess of developing is the
Romance Rights Club, kind oflike Fight Club, where I do more
(50:51):
in-depth dives, like I just didwith you guys on the hidden
identity trope, on the fakerelationship trope and tons more
.
So the Romance Rights Club iscoming soon it's not out yet,
maybe in May it'll be done whereyou can go and you can just
grab these tropes and likeliterally 20 pages is my norm
(51:14):
for explaining how these work,including with a full outline of
what I call a generic outlineof all the plot points that
you're going to need.
But they're very generic, soyou can take these plot points
and you can plug them into.
If you're doing a sciencefiction story, you can put them
on a ship.
If you're fiction story, youcan put them on a ship.
If you're doing historical, youcan put them on a carriage.
If you're doing contemporary,you can put them on a road trip,
(51:34):
whatever, but you'll have theoutline.
You'll have examples of whereyou can see this.
I come from TV and film so I useTV and film examples.
So you would see this in likeone of my favorites Cyrano de
Bergerac's story.
But because I'm a proud childof the 80s, I explained to you
if you remember the film Roxannewith Steve Martin and Daryl
(51:55):
Hannah, right, so I do it there.
Coming to America is anotherhidden identity trope with Eddie
Murphy as Prince Akeem.
80s baby, what can I tell you?
I break things down with someof my favorite movies, showing
you where were you going to hitall of these tropes and also how
they kind of um move themaround a little bit, but they're
(52:17):
all still there.
Then I talked to you about theuniversal fantasies of the
tropes, like why do readers loveit?
And then I give you some ideason the heartbeat moments that
you want to put in there thatyou can then pull out and use
for marketing.
Speaker 1 (52:36):
So yeah, 20 page long lectures that I hope people are
going to really enjoy because Ireally am having so much fun
writing them.
That's great.
That sounds amazing.
Speaker 2 (52:41):
And again I'll be signing up.
You're going to take all mymoney.
Speaker 1 (52:46):
Sounds sounds so good .
I know Sounds so good,Fantastic Yep.
So to all you listeners outthere, do run, don't walk to
Ines Johnson's website and checkall this stuff out.
And also, would you like us togive your book or book series a
(53:06):
shout out on the podcast If youwould just go down in the show
notes and find that littlebutton that says support the
show.
If you sponsor the show for aslittle as $3, we will tell the
world about it.
We will be so grateful.
Your support helps us pay forediting and hosting and lets us
know that you appreciate whatwe're doing.
(53:27):
As I said, the link is in theshow notes and thank you in
advance.
So until next time, keep yourstories rolling.
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