Playwright to Author with Lawrence Allen

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everyone and welcome to the Author Wheel
podcast.
I'm Greta Boris, USA TodayBestselling Mystery Thriller.
Author.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
And I'm Megan Haskell , award-winning fantasy
adventure author.
Together we are the AuthorWheel and today we have an
exciting interview with LawrenceAllen for you.
He's a mystery author with abook title that's not exactly
safe for work, but it was aSheamus Award finalist and he

(00:32):
has a background inscreenwriting, so it's a really
great book.
It just has a difficult titleto advertise.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
Yeah, poor Lawrence.

Speaker 2 (00:42):
But we're going to get more into that in the
interview, so stay tuned.
First, greta, what's been goingon?

Speaker 1 (00:51):
Well, we just got back from 20 Books, vegas, which
we are going to be talking moreabout.
We're going to be doing a fullpodcast on that, and which is
great, because I really can'ttell you a whole lot about it,
because my big take home from 20Books was COVID, so I know.
Consequently, my brain has beenin a fuzzy muddle, so I'm going

(01:15):
to let Megan fill you guys inon her little teasers on our
upcoming podcast on theconference.
I do remember that it was greatand I met some really amazing
people.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
I'm not sure.

Speaker 1 (01:29):
I can tell you who they all were at this point, but
I'm sure it'll all come back tome.
The farther I get away from thefever, the more clarity I'm
getting.
Yeah yeah, yeah.
But in personal news, veryexciting news which I also will
talk a little bit more about inthe upcoming podcast.
I just signed a contract withTantor Audio for the first six

(01:52):
books in the more petitionseries and they approached me,
which is so, so exciting and itproves, at least I believe, that
Facebook ads do work, becauseprior to doing Matt Holmes
Facebook ads course, I didn'thave enough traction to get
anyone's attention.
So, listeners, if you have notlistened to that episode, I

(02:18):
highly recommend it.
It was season three, episodesix, and I mean, if you're
already a Facebook ads wizard,you don't need it.
But I believe Matt has somereally interesting takeaways.
And speaking of taking it away,take it away, meg, and what's
going on with you.
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (02:36):
Well, I actually just signed up for it, literally
just now, right before we got onthis recording.
Signed up for Matt Holmes'direct sales course, so I'm
excited about that.

Speaker 1 (02:47):
We totally need to get an affiliate link for that
guy.
We do, we just keep.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
We're like everybody, matt Holmes, we're like such
thing there are a few peoplethat are like that that we
really need to set up anaffiliate.

Speaker 1 (03:00):
We look funnel Gosh.
Thanks, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yeah, anyway.
So, matt, if you're listeningto this, do you have an
affiliate?
Because I believe he does.
We'll have to look into it.
We'll have to reach out Anyway.
So yeah, so Vegas, I mean, weare going to talk about this
next week in the duo, but I'lljust say this for now that these
conferences always remind me ofthe power of the writing

(03:26):
community, and it's a theme thathas come up a lot recently in
our interviews.
I think authors need community.
We need to reach out.
It is such a lonely, or can besuch a lonely job and you get
stuck in your little bubble, butgoing to a conference like this
, or like any writer'sconference, can really just help

(03:47):
you expand your own mindset andyour ideas and get you inspired
.
I know I was again before wegot on the recording here today.
I was telling Greta my brain isjust scattered, like I feel
like it's exploding all over theplace.

Speaker 1 (04:02):
I know, and she keeps hitting me with shrapnel.

Speaker 2 (04:05):
I just thought Greta's sick, I'm like.
But what about this idea?

Speaker 1 (04:10):
I know she's creating a to-do list for me.

Speaker 2 (04:13):
And it's like go ahead, whatever.

Speaker 1 (04:15):
I can't even argue, I'm too tired yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:18):
My to-do list, I think, has doubled in the last
four days, I think mine probablyhas too, I'm just not aware of
that.
You haven't processed it yet.
Yeah, so, anyway.
So that's good.
We'll talk about that next week.
However, the other thing that Iwas inspired to do and this is

(04:39):
big news at the conference is toactually start a sub-stack
newsletter with all my thoughtson writing and publishing and
the writing industry and thewriting life and all of that
stuff.
It's going to be a little bitstream of consciousness.
It's going to be coming.
I mean, it's in connection withthe author wheel, so it feeds

(05:01):
from our podcast and all thethings that we're talking about
here.
But I'm going to be the primarywriter on that, so it'll be my
voice and I'm probably not goingto edit it as heavily as I edit
other things.
I'm trying to do it fast, fastand dirty.

Speaker 1 (05:19):
I read the first article and I wouldn't have
touched it.
I know I'm off in the editor,but I wouldn't have touched it.
I thought it was great and if Iget excited, I might chime in
once in a while too.

Speaker 2 (05:32):
Well, thank you.
Thank you, yeah, I think it'sgoing to be good.
It's a lot of short articlesand I've got some plans in the
works for topic ideas and stufflike that.
So I'm hoping to post probablytwo to three times a week, just
short, few paragraphs, some morestream of consciousness.
So if you're interested in that, please go check it out.
I will put the link in the shownotes, but I think you can just

(05:54):
like search for me on sub stackMegan Haskell, or I'm calling
it clarify, simplify, implement,because it will fit into that
strategy framework that we havedeveloped, and that's really
kind of it for now.
I think we should probably geton with the show here and talk

(06:16):
with Lawrence about his awkwardtitle.

Speaker 1 (06:21):
Today we have Lawrence Allen.
He's an award-winning mysterywriter, finalist of the Jimmy
Cooper mysteries, his debutnovel and I'm going to have to
modify the title, folks, to keepour non-explicit rating.
It's big effing deal and it wasa shameless award finalist.
He holds an MFA in playwritingfrom the University of Texas at

(06:45):
Austin and he lives in LosAngeles.
Welcome to the show, lawrence.

Speaker 3 (06:50):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (06:52):
We are so happy to have you.

Speaker 2 (06:54):
It's great to have you here and we are very excited
to talk about your title choice, my title choices.

Speaker 3 (07:02):
I'm going to have to go back to the title choices.
The title choices F up and bigeffing deal.

Speaker 2 (07:10):
But first, before we get there, I'd love to hear more
about kind of your journey from, I mean, you sounds like you
went to screenwriting school orfilm school, playwriting,
playwriting.

Speaker 3 (07:22):
And how did you end up writing novels instead?
Well, I had a really goodpandemic.

Speaker 2 (07:28):
If I like to say it was.

Speaker 3 (07:29):
You know it was a great pandemic and I think it
was a great experience.
And I think it was a greatexperience.
Those origin stories, yeah, somy background is in theater and
somewhat screenwriting.
I've always been a theater kid.
So my, my, all my degrees arein theater.
Now that I think about it, so,yeah, the ambition had been to

(07:49):
become a playwright and you know, I did the whole living in New
York thing and when I was in NewYork I started my wife is
Indian and an actress and shestarted doing Pakistani soap
operas in New York and I startedwriting some of those and like,
wow, that's a great way to makea living.
And then, and then we moved toLos Angeles.
I'm like great, I'm going tobreak into television.

(08:11):
I got this great playwritingbackground, everyone's going to
love me.
And then ultimately they didn't.
And the pandemic happened and Iit.
It took a pandemic to realizehow kind of exhausted I was at
pursuing breaking intotelevision and film.
So good pandemic.

(08:33):
And so I had started, maybeabout six months before the
pandemic started, I had gone tothe California crime writers
conference and I had alreadykind of like started noodling
around with writing prose Cause,like at that point, writing
cause the.
The job of breaking intotelevision is to write original

(08:56):
pilots over and over and overand over and over and over and
over and over.
And so I've been doing that forgosh, six or seven, eight years
of you know, every year writinga couple of pilots and sitting
them out to my manager andhaving meetings, and you know,
having good meetings, but no, notraction.
And so I I remember when thelast means I had so the first

(09:20):
novel, big fat F up is the firstJimmy Kumbert book, and that
one was based on a pilot.
And I remember being in ameeting with somebody on the CBS
studio lot and he was like, oh,this is great, it's as sure as
you could do the job, and likehe's gonna buy it.
He's gonna buy it.
He didn't buy it, nor hire mefor anything else.

(09:41):
And I told him I had distinctmemory in that meeting.
It's like, well, I'm going toturn this into a book, so
someday you guys are going tohave to pay a lot more for it
than right now.

Speaker 2 (09:49):
Here's your opportunity to buy it cheap.

Speaker 3 (09:51):
And they did.
They passed on buying it cheap.
So I had already kind ofstarted newling around with
turning it into a novel.
And at the California crimewriter's conference I did one of
those agent you know, meet anagent, they'll read the first
page is kind of thing.
And she did, and she's likethis is going to be a short
meeting.
So I start spreading bulletsand like oh my God, it's going

(10:11):
to be terrible.
She's like I love it, I want tosee the whole book, which is
like what you want, like fromthose never happened.
So I was like giddy but Ididn't have the whole book.
So so I started writing it andthen the pandemic hit and I was
still working on the book, but Iwas still trying to write
pilots and still having meetingsand I just I just couldn't do
it anymore.

(10:31):
So I was like well, this, thisnovel, experience, just just the
act of writing it and write.
And at that point I was I guessI was writing for the potential
agent and writing it for myself.
That felt so good, Just justnot writing on the book.
I was like I'm going to writeit, I'm going to be good, just
just not writing it for anyother ambition other than to

(10:52):
write it.
So that's how I kind of starteddoing it and, like I finished
it, she ultimately passed on it.
And then, because the pandemicwas still going, I also started
remembering kind of the happiesttimes of my life as an artist,
which was when I was in my 20s,produced self self producing

(11:13):
theater in when I was living inMinneapolis, putting up shows,
and there was so much fun.
So it's like, okay, well, Icould do that with this book, I
can kind of self produce thisbook, and so that's ultimately
how I did it.
And, like the the, the firstbook got so much, I'll say,
praise, so much attention, somuch.
A lot of people really liked it.
They had dug it.

(11:34):
So I'm like, okay, so I'm ontosomething.
This is, this feels great towrite and it feels people are
bonding to it.
So I had to write a second oneand then I'll eventually write
the third one.
So that's the journey.
It's kind of like exhaustionpandemic, like what do I really
want to do?
Oh, I really want to be happyas an artist.
So so I'll do, I'll do thethings that make me happy rather

(11:57):
than necessarily pursuing likehow I should be entering into a
career.

Speaker 1 (12:03):
You know, that story is really great because I think
there's so many, so many of usdo have that kind of we think we
should do it this way or wethink we should have this career
, even if it's a non-artisticcareer, like Megan was a
forensic accountant.

Speaker 2 (12:22):
Forensic accountant.

Speaker 3 (12:24):
That's riveting yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:28):
That's a darn sexy career.

Speaker 2 (12:31):
You know what the sad thing is?
It sounds sexier than itactually is.

Speaker 1 (12:36):
Wow, I know right, but you know pouring our heart
out on the page to and from onthe train.
You know what I mean.
And it's just interesting.
And I had always thought that Iwas going to pursue acting and
or music because my mom was anopera singer and that was the

(12:58):
direction I was going to go.
And I have the thin well, notas much now, but I used to have
the thinnest skin of anybody Iever met.
So you take your thin skin andyou go audition for a part,
forget it.

Speaker 3 (13:11):
Like you're a suicidal, yeah, you can't have
as an, because I used to be anactor too.
Like, yeah, you can't.
You can't go into an auditionand have thin skin.
You don't just be ruinedbecause you're going to.
You're going to go on way moreauditions than you're going to
get the job, and you won't knowwhy you didn't get the job,
which is the worst in the world.
But yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:32):
Well, we actually had another conversation with a
woman who had been trying to beon Broadway when she was younger
, before becoming an editor andultimately writer.
But and she was saying like shewas like, yeah, sometimes you
walk out on stage and they justsay Nope, nope, yeah, it's like
they were rejecting me as a asjust being like as an entity.

Speaker 3 (13:52):
And the thing is, I've been on the other side of
the table as a playwright andauditioning people and, yes,
I've been in my mind as soon asthey walked in, like oh, no, no,
no.

Speaker 2 (14:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (14:00):
They're just totally wrong and like, but you still
got to like.
You should still let themaudition because you could.
They might change your mind,but it's it's.
It's a hard business.

Speaker 2 (14:09):
It, is it really really?

Speaker 1 (14:11):
is Well and honestly, I think, then, anything to do
with film.
You know, every author thinks,and it's so.
I'm sorry I'm talking fast, mybrain is going faster than my
mouth.
Every but every author I knowwho who writes.
You know, a reasonably goodbook has many, many people tell
them oh, this will be a great TVseries, this will be a great

(14:33):
movie.
I always say, from your lips toGod's ears, because that's all
of our dreams.
Yeah, but it is so rare, it'sso incredibly rare.

Speaker 3 (14:43):
It's incredibly rare.
Like it's it's all rare andlike because people said that
about my book as well Well, Ithought there's a pilot, but,
like it is, it is so difficultto get those things across the
finish line, like you know, evenand we and we look at some of
that stuff that does make itcross, well, that's crap.
It's like you have no idea,like, how hard it was to get

(15:05):
that there.
So it's it's not everything'sgoing to make it into TV and
film.
Like it's just it's thebusiness isn't shaped for that.
Like it's just not shaped forthat, and so it's it's difficult
.
And so, like you know, writers,writers shouldn't write for the
possibility of their show beingturned into television, cause I
think that that will just beheartbreaking.

(15:26):
You're just, you have to writethe best books that you're going
to write and like that's that'sthe object, that's that's the,
the artifact that you'recreating.
It's the best book.
If you're, if you're lucky,someone might license it, then
you get some free money.
If, like, they're trying to, asthey option it and try to sell
it to somebody, you have somefree money there, and if it gets
made, that's even greater.

(15:47):
But like, don't try to writeyour book to get turned into a
television show.
It's way hard.
It's going to get harder now.

Speaker 2 (15:53):
Yeah, yeah, and we, we actually say the same thing
about traditional deals,although like traditional
publishing deals, although Ithink that's somewhat becoming
more common now.
But still, it's like if you'regoing to write the book, write
the best book, you can do thebest you can for that product,
because you have no idea howit's going to take off in the
market or not.
You know how long it's going totake, when, if ever, it's going

(16:17):
to take off.
So you just have to keep.
If you want to be a writer,right, and if you really love
that thing and just I think it's, you know, probably kind of the
same in Hollywood too If youreally love that thing, then you
keep trying and trying untilyou just can't do it.

Speaker 3 (16:31):
Yeah, until someone pays you to write something, you
write what you love.
Yes, and because if you don'twrite what you love, you're just
going to be miserable.
If you're going to try to writesomething that gets sold,
you're just aching to have yourheart broken over and over and
over.
But until someone pays you towrite something.
Write what you love, like, justdo that, because you'll be far

(16:52):
happier than not.

Speaker 2 (16:55):
Yeah, yeah, that's what I was trying to say.
You said it better, thank you.

Speaker 3 (16:58):
I'm away with words.

Speaker 1 (17:00):
I feel like we can go home now.
I mean, that's the you knowthis was a quick podcast.
I love it, it was so quick no,no, I mean that is it's yes good
philosophy of life.
So I think we've kind of likeour big question we always ask
people is about what would yousay was your greatest roadblock

(17:22):
to success, and I feel like insome regards we have covered
that.
But let's like switch it overto now that you've got some
novels.
What do you feel like is yourbiggest roadblock in getting
those novels where you want toget them, in terms of sales and
all of those things?

Speaker 3 (17:41):
I think it's.
I mean two things.
One I always want to write thebest book that I can, and so you
know, the the second book.
It was funny writing the secondbook because I'd never written
a sequel to anything before.

Speaker 1 (17:54):
You only written pilots.

Speaker 3 (17:56):
Yeah, I'd only written like part ones of things
, and so, like, just like, andI'd started the second book and
like, and then it dawned on me,like, like a wave crashing over
me.
It's like I've never written asequel.
What do I?
What do I do here?
How much information do I give?
How much like?
Because I, you know, I didn'twant it to be you have to read

(18:16):
the first book to read thesecond book.
They're not, I mean, they're,they're connected.
It's the same characters, thesame universe, that's all that.
But, like you know, you don'thave to.
It's great if you do so that sothere was.
So there was that creativechallenge that I, I think I
overcome.
But, like, when I start thethird book, I'll probably like,
I've never written a part threeof anything before.

(18:38):
So, there'll be that panic allover again.
So so so there's the roadblockof always wanting to excel at
the writing, make make thewriting as good as I as I really
can.
And two, it's obviously theselling.
I don't have a, you know, I'mnot.
I'm indie published, however wewant to call it, I'm indie
published and so I don't have,you know, I don't have Random

(18:58):
House making ads for me andbooking me on on different
things.
So it's it's getting the wordout and it's educating myself
how I can be in the driver'sseat of that and and trying to
make it fun for myself, like theadvertising, like learning how
to advertise, learning on how toget the word out, trying to and

(19:20):
keeping that fun and creativefor myself.
And that makes it easier to do,because I know it's difficult
for everybody to like talk abouttheir book to.
You know, get it out there andstuff like that.
We're writers are generallypeople who don't want to talk
about themselves unless acrosstheir screenwriters in Hollywood
, and they will talk aboutthemselves all the time.

(19:40):
But been to those parties, soso that would.
So that's been the biggestchallenge, is just like taking
every small win and celebratingthat.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
So how have you made it fun for yourself?
Because I think that I thinkthat is a challenge for a lot of
people I know it is for me toowhere it's like they're like
tick tock, Don't enjoy it.
I don't like, you know.
So I ended up hiring someone.

Speaker 1 (20:06):
Yeah, why not?

Speaker 2 (20:09):
But like so, how have you?
How have you chosen youravenues, if you will, and then
made that fun.

Speaker 3 (20:16):
Well, I think several avenues presented themselves.
One, like the covers and thetitles.
Like when I like I hired agreat cover artist, she's
fantastic and so like thatthat's one thing.
So like in a stack of books, mybook stand out, and I know, and
I know we've been all we'vebeen told like I started doing

(20:36):
research on how to do that.
So like make the covers looklike all the other covers of
books in your genre, and I kindof I can be sometimes a
contrarian, so I'm like I don'twant that.
I want, like my book to stickout like so you know, at least
have the vibe of the book and itsticks out like.
That's in my mind.

Speaker 1 (20:57):
Your covers are.
Your covers are great.
I love it.
Yeah, I think they're great.

Speaker 3 (21:01):
Yeah, and and they're , yeah, they're fabulous and I'm
going to pet my stuff on theback.
They're fabulous.
I didn't design but I hired agreat designer to do that and so
that was fun.
And then just kind of figuringout like certain programs, like
I.
For a while I did tick tock andI've kind of fallen out of the
habit.
So I only made like four orfive tick tocks and then I

(21:23):
fallen out of the habit of it.
But like I got to know iMovie onmy computer and just having fun
, like oh, what can I do?
Like I did it, I did like apromotional tick tock thing of
the book and I intercut therewas like a the French connection
has one of like the most famouscar chase scenes in cinema

(21:44):
where like they're chasing likeone of the elevated subway
trains and Gene Hackman'sdriving a car beneath it and
he's trying to catch because thebad guys in the subway train.
And I intercut that with.
So I took the, the, the sceneand I cut out Gene Hackman and I
put my book driving the car.
Just this is what it's like todrive, to read big F thing deal,

(22:06):
and like you know.
So you see the book driving thewheel and pressing the brake
and like so you know just kindof silly kind of things like
that.
So I got familiar with iMovieand there's there's a program
called Canva, which we both useit.
Yeah, and so can't be straight,and so it's just kind of like

(22:26):
well, how can I kind of createinteresting images?
Or with using the, you know,some of the images of the cover,
like I can, I can cut out, youknow, because Jimmy Cooper is
featured on both of the covers,so I can kind of cut up Jimmy,
and then I have Jimmy, I can puthim in different backgrounds.
I can, you know, have differentphrases or what.

(22:47):
I can kind of do that.
So it's kind of like, well, howcan I use these images in
different ways, changing thebackground, using review lines
from Instagram or something likethat, so I can do motion in
Canva.
I'm going to start doing someanimation in Canva, you know.
So it's just kind of exploring.

(23:08):
I guess it's to make this longmonologue short.
I guess it's just following mycreative news and just like, how
can I do something, how can Imake it more interesting to me,
and so that?
So that's fun, like just kindof figuring out how to do
something that I don't know howto do.
I think that's probably thebest way of doing it.

(23:29):
And then it's also like taking,you know, online courses.
There's a lot of people who areselling, you know, do Amazon
ads, do Facebook ads, dobookblog ads ads?
And so you know, taking one ofthose and learning how to do
that, and sometimes therethere's a lot of information,
but you kind of like sortthrough the information that's
going to be useful for you andand then make it your own voice.

(23:54):
I guess that's how I'm.

Speaker 1 (23:56):
You know, I really like what you just said.
I think that a lot of peopleget afraid they start if it's
something they don't know how todo, they've never done before,
I've done this.
I get like a mental block, likeoh, that's the kind of thing
that somebody else does, it'snot the kind of thing that I do.
And I had decided this yearthat I was gonna learn how to

(24:22):
run Facebook ads and I signed upfor a course and I just said to
myself this year is the yearI'm gonna learn how to do
Facebook ads and you know it's agreat course.
I tell everybody about it.
One of these days we're gonnaget an affiliate link.
But we had Matt Holmes on theshow.

Speaker 3 (24:42):
That's who I took us for mail.

Speaker 1 (24:44):
Okay, yeah, and we had him on the show.
He's a great guy and yeah, Ijust it's just trying to
approach it as fun, Just tryingto approach it.
As you know, how can I makeunique and interesting images?
I wasn't able to cut out mycharacter.
I drop out the backgroundbecause the way that my cover

(25:05):
designer made my character likeher hair disappears.
So weird stuff like that.
It's like really Mariah.
You know, but it's so layeredthat it didn't work for me, but
I found a model.
You know a deposit photos thatkind of looks like her in
someone.
So I picked her up and put herin different backgrounds.
I just do, but like notstressing out but, like you said

(25:29):
, making it fun.
I think that is.
I think that's critical.

Speaker 3 (25:33):
Yeah, I think if you're just having fun with it,
like it takes off the stakes,you know, because we all want
that right ad that's gonnasuddenly sell 100 books a day or
500 books a day or whatever,and like and I think sure it's
possible, but like I can't thinkin those terms like this is
gonna be the ad.
So it's just like can I makethis fun for myself?

(25:55):
Can I do this, Will this work?
And like, being willing to messup, being willing to it not
work out and being comfortablewith that because it's like.
I remember there's a NeilGaiman quote from years ago and
I don't remember the context,but he basically said like
anything you do can be fixed.
You know anything you write canbe fixed.
So it's not like if you make abad ad on Facebook or Amazon,

(26:18):
like that you'll never recoverfrom it.
You know, unless you've donesomething really horrific like
you're gonna.
You know you're gonna liveanother day.
It's just books, it's justselling books on, you know, on
Facebook, and so being willingto put yourself out there and
being willing to risk messing upand there's no risk come

(26:39):
messing up, really like it'sjust oh okay, it didn't work out
, like I put the wrong.
Like my wife was so mad at mebecause I didn't fix it right
away Cause I didn't know I haddone it wrong.
I blame Facebook.
I'd put the wrong location onone of the ads.
So it was an ad for the booksfor the UK Amazon, but I'd put
the location for the US, so,like all these US people were

(27:01):
doing the UK link you know whatI'm saying.
Oh no, I was like, what did Ido?
And I, for a while, I wasblaming Facebook.
It's like I don't know, it'stheir algorithm, but it's like,
no, no, it was me.
I messed up.
Well, I'm living another day,so that's all right.

Speaker 2 (27:16):
Well, and I think we all learn from those mistakes.
So if you don't put yourselfout there and try and just go
for it.
You're never gonna makeprogress, Not so much.
I mean, there's the one.
If you can't win the lotto, ifyou never buy the ticket right,
there's that aspect of it too,of course.
But even beyond that, if youbuy the ticket, okay, it doesn't
work with the lotto anymore.

Speaker 1 (27:38):
But you and your analogies.

Speaker 3 (27:39):
You have to work on our metaphors.

Speaker 2 (27:43):
But if you don't put yourself out there, if you don't
try and if you aren't willingto make those mistakes, then
you'll never learn, so you'llnever get better, so you'll
never actually find that successthat you're looking for Right.

Speaker 3 (27:56):
I mean, you wrote the book.
That's a lot.
I mean, if you can write a book, you can try to write a
Facebook ad or you can do an adon Amazon.
It might not be initially fun,but if you find ways to make it
creative for yourself, even ifit's not like what someone's
telling you how to make the ad,it might work.

(28:17):
Because I sometimes see adsthat just all look the same and
I gloss over them.
And you need Matthew talksabout that scroll stopping image
.
So take a risk If you don't putyourself out there, if you
don't do you wrote a book, youwrote a book.
Tell everyone you wrote a book.

(28:37):
That's an amazing.
It's really hard to write abook.
So why you shouldn't be like,sit on your heels and like, well
, I can't do Facebook ads?
You can.
Or you can hire someone Likethat's a very valid option as
well.

Speaker 1 (28:52):
Or go a different direction.
I mean, there's some people whoare crushing it on TikTok.
I'm not.

Speaker 2 (29:01):
Again, you have to buy the ticket.

Speaker 3 (29:03):
Yeah, yeah, you have to get on the TikTok.

Speaker 1 (29:06):
I do.
I follow a Somalia who tellsyou the best wines at Trader
Joe's and then I look at funny,funny dog TikToks that's like it
.
But that isn't that what alsoTikTok is for Like drinking wine
and watching dogs, and then I'mgonna watch what happens with
Megan's person and if it goesgood, then maybe I'll hire her

(29:26):
too.
But you know, it's interestingwhat you said about being not
being afraid to make a mistake,and this is not about
advertising.
But when I first startedwriting, I was writing for
magazines at first, when I firstthought I was gonna write
novels.
I can remember having you knowit's the one agent and when

(29:48):
you're brand new you take whatthey say as gospel Right and
it's like an agent.
I mean she's 26.
I was like whatever, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (30:01):
You can just rent a car now, like that's where she
is in her experience.

Speaker 1 (30:05):
Anyway, basically what she said and I'm not sure
if she told me directly or Iheard her in a talk, I can't
remember now but basically whatshe said is that if you
independently publish a crappybook, no publisher will ever
look at you, ever.
You've damned yourself for allliterary eternity.

(30:28):
Yeah yeah, and so I wasterrified.
I like terrified and so ofcourse you know, my first series
is traditionally published andit took me seven traditionally
published books, with a veryencouraging publisher, with a
lovely editor, to get theHutzpah to independently publish

(30:49):
a series.
You know, because I had thatlittle voice in the back of my
mind like, oh no, you publish abad indie book and you are
damned for all eternity.

Speaker 3 (31:00):
Wait, isn't that true if you publish a traditionally
published book?
That's terrible, oh it's worse.
Like it's all like if youpublish something that's
terrible, traditional or indie,like it's not good for you.
But but like, I mean, like Ithink my first book is really
really good and no one wasinterested in it.
So like, so what does that say?

(31:21):
Like, maybe it was the title,maybe it was the most likely, it
was the market.
Like wasn't wanting.
You know, what the market wantsfor success versus what I want
for success are two dramaticallydifferent numbers.
Like, you know, what will payfor my book is different than
what if Random House puts in allthis money, what their sales

(31:42):
wants are very different.
But it's just interesting to meof like, oh, you'll be damned
if you publish a bad book.
Well, lots of people havepublished bad books and have
gone on.
So it's, it's, it's puttingthat fear into you that you know
.
I'll say it this way.
So I was trying to figure outwhen I was still writing pilots

(32:04):
this is how this book seriescame about I was trying to
figure out what was gonna be mynext pilot.
I was on an airplane comingback to LA and I was trying to
think of a really good idea,because you need a really good
idea.
High concept, high concept andI just, and I couldn't think of
anything, couldn't think ofanything.
And then I asked myself what'sa really terrible idea?
What is an idea that will getme a laugh down in the room if I

(32:27):
pitch it?
What is an idea that theexecutives will like over in the
break room over lattes, willtell the other executive can you
believe?
This guy just pitched this thingto me and the idea of a former
child star as a privatedetective sounded so terrible to
me I just started laughing aslike I was like, because I was
imagining myself pitching it tosome exact, you know, over at

(32:50):
100 brothers, like here.
It is Well, just imagineMacaulay Culkin as a private
detective.
It writes itself.
And it was just such a terrible.

Speaker 2 (33:00):
Now, if you could have actually gotten Macaulay
Culkin to sign onto that, thatwould have been perfect.

Speaker 3 (33:06):
Well, yeah, I would have crushed it.
I would be, you know, doingthis interview in my Lamborghini
, but like, but I just keptthinking about that idea and
just laughing and laughing andjust stuck with me.
It's like, oh, there actuallymight be like, if I kind of
treat it seriously and not likea dumb idea, but if I kind of
get this character some depth,oh, there's something here to it

(33:26):
, so like, so it's just the ideaof like a bad book I don't even
know what that means like in ain an objective sense, like,
because a lot of people like alot of different books and like.
So it's.
It's Just too hard.
It's just too hard.
You got to write what you loveand like and like.
Like you said, it was one agent, it's one person's opinion, and

(33:50):
like.
You know how many, how manytimes have we heard like, oh,
that book was passed over bylike 150 Agents or 150
publishers and now it's like aPulitzer Prize winning.
Oh, yeah, I mean, you know,it's all the time King, yeah,
right, a rowling.

Speaker 1 (34:04):
Yeah, all all the superstars have their stories.
You know, and that that'sdefinitely, that's definitely
true.
So is that the?
Because, I'm so sorry, Ihaven't read one of your books
yet.

Speaker 2 (34:17):
Yeah, there's still time.

Speaker 1 (34:19):
There's still time.
I'm not planning to dietomorrow, although you never
know.
So, is that the premise foryour book?
Is it?

Speaker 3 (34:28):
He's a he's a former child star and recovering addict
and he gets a second shot atfame as LA's most famous private
detective.
It's, it's a little bit.
I was joking about MacaulayCulkin, but he was in my mind
but, like also, robert Downey JrWas in my mind when I started
writing it.
So, like you know, back in the90s when he was having, when
Robert Downey Jr or Robert as Ilike to come we're not friends

(34:51):
Robert calling when Bobby, whenBobby was having his troubles in
the 90s, it was very, it was avery public, you know disaster.
You know like he was getting.
You know he was constantly incourt and and part of me is like
, oh well, what was it?
Instead of, like you know,becoming Iron man and able to
buy islands and stuff like that,he became a private detective.

(35:13):
So like that tone of how hekind of exists and and just the
idea of I I Also put thecharacter in recovery.
You know, as you know, thecharacter is addicted to pills
and and booze, because I alsokind of a little tired of
private detectives always beinghaving the drinking problem.
They're always, they're always.
Alcoholics are like borderlinealcoholics.

(35:34):
Every every night they'restewing over the case.
Why, drinking their 20 year oldScotch or whatever?
And so it's like, come on, youknow, so, you know he's, he's,
you know he's sober and he's,and you know it's still a
struggle.
It doesn't go away for him.
But like, so, you know it's.
It's a somebody KatrinaMcPherson called, called it the

(35:55):
other day online and I thankedher so much because I've been
trying to desperately becauseit's not a cozy, it's not a cozy
mystery, because there's fartoo many curse words.
It's not a cozy.
But she called it a noir Z,which I appreciate you.
Right right, like I'm sostealing that, and so it was a
noir Z.
So it's kind of like noir typeCharacters.

(36:17):
You know we have a privatedetective, we have Los Angeles,
but it also has kind of the thefound family of cosies, you know
, because he's kind of he hashis Best friend, is kind of a
neighbor and the bungalows helives in and you know he's
reconstructed his life, but soit's it's so, it's along those
lines.
So it's not like this noir,dark noir, so it's like noir Z

(36:37):
is perfect.

Speaker 2 (36:38):
Yeah, I love that, I love how, right now, because
even even well, greta, I'll letyou tell you're telling the
story, but my favorite story ofyou on you.

Speaker 3 (36:50):
I'm in suspense right .

Speaker 1 (36:53):
Cozy horror story.

Speaker 2 (36:55):
Yes, yes, Cozy horror , right, but the fact is I
actually saw that the other day,like somebody else had listed
their book as cozy horror, andand I love that so much that
we're in this, this era, wherewe can, okay, yes, make up terms
, but people buy into it right,like, oh, yeah, no, I get that.

(37:18):
That makes sense.
First is Greta's story.
Which Greta?

Speaker 1 (37:21):
let you tell it so the first time I ever met with
an agent to pitch a book that Ihad written, and I thought that
cozy horror was just like yourreaction.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
You left everybody.

Speaker 1 (37:34):
It's I thought it was incredibly clever and I was
kind of using it and I had a bitof a background in marketing
and I didn't understand theUtsupotsunos of publishing that
you had to, like, use theirverbiage and do it yeah yeah,
all that kind of thing.
So in my cover letter for my 20pages I called the book that I

(37:55):
was pitching a cozy horror.
Yeah, she told me, no, youdon't do that.
This is not appropriate.
Yeah we don't use that languagehere, we get it.

Speaker 3 (38:07):
I mean, that's the thing, and I'm not gonna, and
I'm gonna do my best to not tonot slag on cozy writers Because
it's a genre I, I I don't writebecause I'm a noir.

Speaker 2 (38:18):
You're at Noir Z's.

Speaker 3 (38:20):
Noir Z's, because I mean because it's, it's, it's.
It can be Sometimes too narrowly, narrowly defined like a cozy,
like there's the muffin shop andthen there's the detective who,
every you know, in betweenmuffin Is solving a crime with,
with the talking cat, don'tforget with the talking cat, um
and and so, which, which isgreat, but like I think you know

(38:41):
the idea, I think one of thereasons why I laugh, like if I
was that age and I'd be like Iam so on board, because, like
cozy horror is like such a greatcontradictory term, like it's
such a great I had a Writingteacher use the word frisian
like it's like I don'tunderstand that, tell me more.
Like because it's also like Ialso hear cozy horror and I

(39:01):
think cosmic horror, so it'slike the sounds so similar,
something I have to know.
Like what is a cozy horror?

Speaker 1 (39:08):
And actually I do think that's what I write now,
my new series I really do.
I don't call it that, I call itparanormal suspense, but it's
got the small Community, youknow, and it's in a mortuary,
but it's a small community andyou know, and and dirt my books

(39:28):
don't have cussing or sex on thepage or Extreme gore, but
there's descriptions ofembalming procedures and so I
mean it's not a muffin shop.

Speaker 3 (39:42):
That's in the back of the mortuary yeah.
Yeah, because what I, becausewhat I think is interesting,
like other other than, obviously, the language of the title and
language that some of thecharacters use in the Book, like
it's my book.
I'm totally a very networktelevision and that kind of
sounds like what your book is aswell, like it's not.
We're not, you're not pushinglike you're not doing HBO,

(40:03):
paranormal, paranormal doingmaybe like NBC or CBS you know.
So it's like so it's, it's, it'sit.
There's a container for that,and so I just find it
fascinating.
Yeah, I just find that label.

Speaker 1 (40:14):
Did you ever watch I zombie?
Yeah, yeah, I zombie is one ofthe inspirations for for my
stories too, and that it's itlike.
To me, I zombie is cozy hover.
I mean, you got zombies, so youkind of have to call it or but
it's, it's it you?

Speaker 2 (40:31):
know you love the characters.

Speaker 1 (40:33):
It's light, it's funny, it's got yeah yeah, it's
like funny zombies who do yeah,yeah.
So I'm all on board with this.

Speaker 2 (40:44):
And your agent story was 10 years ago, whereas now,
today, I feel like because ofthe rise of indie, quite
honestly, and because of Amazonbeing able to Make niches, you
know, super fine yeah,categories on their search terms
and stuff, I think it'schanging.
So I love it, I love noir Z andI love cozy horror kind of kind

(41:04):
of tying it.

Speaker 3 (41:05):
Kind of tying it back to what we're talking about
selling the books Like which isa if you're, unless you got a
machine behind you.
That's the part of your job asa writer now.
Like coming up with a phraselike cozy horror or noir Z, like
those are great tools to tellpeople because, like it, it
allows you to convey the tone Ofyour book really quickly.

(41:27):
You know, like cozy horror islike okay, I get that.
Or or I'm so intrigued like howdoes that work that I want to
know.
And so I think those are, Ithink those are Important things
to consider.
I mean, it's fine you can sayparanormal, you know, paranormal
romance, paranormal mystery,those are all very fine too.
But I think something that's asear-catching as cozy horror is

(41:49):
really To me that speaks to likehaving fun.
You know, having fun creatively,like I found this, this
portmandeu of like putting thesetwo things together and
creating a new, a new word likethat's.
That's fabulous, that helpspeople find things and talk
about.

Speaker 1 (42:06):
It's just gonna say can it can help you really to
find your Audience because youknow, with first bucks in a
series, if you're writing aseries, first bucks my
experience is those are thebooks you get the one star or
two star reviews on.
By the time you're to book four, five and six, your reviews are
getting better.
You know, overall your yeah, youfound your audience you found

(42:30):
right and the people who are not, who are gunning not I had
Everything about mine talksabout the fact that my being
character.
She gets the final, finalexperience and sensations of the
dead when she touches her hairand if they were murdered, they

(42:50):
follow her home Basically.
So it's, I know so it's likeit's obviously there's ghosts
right.
Obviously.
And so I did get one three starreview on book three.
Her whole thing was well, itwas funny, but I did not like
the fact that there were ghostsin this book.

(43:10):
So I'm giving it a three starreview.
I'm like so seriously, but youget less of those you know as
the series goes on, because youknow, but books one and the
first book is what we's, the onewhere people were Expecting
something slightly different.
Yeah and then they were unhappy.
But that's too where I lovewhat you were talking about

(43:33):
about your cover, becausegetting the right cover is
Critical yeah.
Critical in that because it'sset, it's that quick because a
lot of people don't read yourdescriptions Right.
I found that out the hard waywith many books.
But that cover, if that coversays what's in the book, if it

(43:55):
gives them that impression.

Speaker 3 (43:57):
Mm-hmm.
I mean that it's gold, it's thereality is we all judge books by
their covers.
Like, exactly, we don't judgewe hopefully don't judge people
by the covers, but we judgebooks by their covers.
I wholeheartedly admit when Isee a cool cover that's in the
vibe that I like, I immediatelywill pick it up.
But if it's an, if it's a coverlike that's not my vibe, I'm

(44:18):
not gonna like.
Well, I should see what theback says, like I don't do that.
I judge books by their covers.
And I think you like, if you'reindie publishing, you should
spend the time and or the moneyto do it right, to do the cover
Right and and that and that.
So that means you as the writer, knowing what you want as a

(44:40):
cover and Getting the rightartist who will match that.
You know, I the the one that Iworked with.
She most of her bread andbutter for covers is actually
romance and it's like kind ofthe whole vector drawing kind of
stuff.
But I the there's Joanna Pennwho's a big indie.

Speaker 1 (45:03):
She's gonna be on our she's gonna be in our podcast
next year.
Hot tip everybody.
You heard it here.

Speaker 3 (45:11):
But on her website she has a lot of resources and
one of those resources is a listof cover artists and I just
went through I don't know howmany.
There were like 100, 150, and Ijust went through every single
one and narrowing it down, andso I hit upon the right artist
for me in my book.
Now, when I start anotherseries, which I'll probably read

(45:33):
a draft of that next year Idon't know if she'll be the
right artist for that seriesit's a little bit different in
tone, but like I'm happy tospend the money, like I don't.
I don't always think Goingcheap is a good idea, don't you
know?
Don't you know, sell yourmortgage or house for a cover.
But like don't, don't go, don'tgo cheap, don't go like, well,

(45:57):
I paid 20 bucks for this coverbecause you will get a 20 buck
cover You'll.
You'll get a 20 buck cover andeveryone and you'll look like
everyone else.
So it's so you're gonna scrollThrough a list or like if you're
at a book conference, in thebook room and you walk around
and you see everybody's covered,like I Highly recommend it if
you're thinking of and youpublishing, go to a book

(46:18):
conference, go to the book roomand you you will definitely see
which covers are done cheaplyand not very good.
You'll see what everyone elseis doing and you will your what.
What catches your eye.
That's what you want to happen.
What's gonna catch your eyebecause that's what someone else
is gonna do.
So Take the time, do the bestjob you can at this, because

(46:42):
it's your baby, it's your book,like you want it out there and I
could be entirely wrong.
I could be doing this all theway wrong.
Like having my book with thecovers that they have and the
titles that they have could beabsolutely wrong and terrible
advice.
But I know my books catchpeople's eyes.

(47:04):
I know that that is a good fact.

Speaker 2 (47:06):
Let's transition off the cover and talk about the
title.

Speaker 1 (47:12):
Yeah.
Right yeah there is a hot spot,yeah.

Speaker 3 (47:15):
Which makes for interesting conversations at
around dinner with my11-year-old.

Speaker 2 (47:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (47:20):
I can imagine.

Speaker 2 (47:21):
I can imagine.
But so I mean your title has acurse word in it.
So how do you deal with that?
And for marketing purposes.
And how has that affected yoursales and so forth, because it
does get attention.

Speaker 3 (47:37):
Yeah, it does get attention.
And that's a good questionabout how to what I need to do
as far as affecting sales, likewho knows because?
Like are my sales what they areBecause of the title, or they
are where they are because I'mstill relatively new to this
community, but it has adefinitely affected ads.

(47:58):
So my first impulse was to doAmazon ads to try to get out
there.
I have good reviews on Amazonand stuff like that.
So it's like, ok, let's startinvesting in that.
So I took the class.
I took my first class on Amazonads, like diligently taking all
the notes, and then I startsetting up my ads and they start

(48:19):
getting rejected one afteranother.
Oh no, it's like what's goingon?
So the title so big fat F up,big F in deal, and because
Amazon has you can't Now howthey're spelled out, the titles
of the book, how they're spelledout, it's F.
Is that the ampersand?
That's not the ampersand, theapp.

Speaker 1 (48:41):
The app symbol.

Speaker 2 (48:42):
The app symbol and exclamation point.

Speaker 3 (48:43):
Ok, so I'm not spelling the word out on the
cover.
However, amazon has a specificlike you can't cover things up,
you can't get your way around acurse word in the ad system, so
it wasn't even so.
Basically, the book title wastoo vulgar for Amazon ads and my

(49:06):
wife was like, well, there'sall these other books that have
that in the title.
I'm like, yeah, but I don'tthink they're doing Amazon ads.
I think they're, you know.
Anyway.
So Amazon ads was a problem,and so I spent about a day maybe
three hours, I don't know ofthe day feeling really terrible,
kicking myself for making atitling choice for the series,

(49:28):
however many years ago, twoyears ago, and now it's hurting
me.
But then I pivoted.
It's like, ok, well, I didn'twant to change the title, I
didn't want to change the book,like the book covers, and when I
have the third book out I'llprobably make a big volume of
all three novels and then I cancall it Jimmy Cooper Mysteries
and sell it on Amazon.
But there's other avenues ofadvertising.

(49:52):
So that I went into theFacebook ads and Facebook isn't
as concerned.
I occasionally have had onewhen in the primary text they're
like you're using the book aton, but they haven't said
anything about the covers yet.
Of course, as soon as this goesout, facebook will be like oh
no, so it's definitely an issue.

(50:16):
But I like the titles and I kindof like the conversation, like
when I meet somebody and theyhear the title, if it resonates
for them, it really resonatesfor them.
And I've said that I kind ofuse it as a bouncer, that if
you're not amused by the kind ofslight transgression of the

(50:40):
title, then you're not going tobe amused by the book.
And the books are variednetwork, except for the curse
words, some curse words in there, but it's not gory, it's not
bloody, even though there'smurder.
I mean, literally it's based ona pilot that was for a network.
So it's not like that.

(51:00):
So it definitely challenged meand I knew when I made the
decision to title it and thecover that I got, I knew at some
point it would bite me in thebutt.
I will say it that way.
It will bite me in the butt andmy expectation is like well,
walmart will never sell the book.
That's what I was expecting myconsequences to be.

(51:24):
So I knew consequences werecoming.
It's not the consequences thatI thought it would be.
So that's a choice, so I'vejust rolled with it.
I'll have other series, I'llhave other books, so it's not
the end of the world, like wewere talking about earlier.
Like, yes, maybe this was amistake.

(51:44):
I'm sure there'll be lots ofpeople out there who are saying,
well, you would be selling10,000 books a year or whatever,
if you had titled itdifferently, and maybe.
But who's to say, like, youcan't unravel that, you can't
unring that bell, so you have toaccept the consequences of your
decision?
I guess, ultimately, what I'msaying.

Speaker 1 (52:07):
And also I would say that it's a little bit hard for
you to tell, because in myexperience most indie series
don't take off until you havemaybe four or five books in the
series, at least three and soyou've only got two books in
this series and it looks likeyou're doing well, and so you

(52:28):
find your fan base.
And some people are definitelynot going to read books that
have cuss words in them, and youdon't have to get one star
refused from those people.

Speaker 2 (52:42):
Because they're going to look at your book and
they're going to go not readthat?

Speaker 3 (52:46):
Not for me.
I did.
I did this year's BacheloretteCon in San Diego.
I was, I had done a panel andthen after the panel we do book
signings and this guy came upand he was very much a cozy fan
and he was like.
He was kind of like I don'tknow, can you tell me how many
cuss words are in the book?
Because he was curious aboutthe book, he was tempted about

(53:10):
the book and I'm like, well youknow not 27.
27.5 per page, no, and it's likewell, I don't know, like.
I mean, I kind of said listen,there might be the occasional
cuss word here and there.
I keep saying, oh, there's cusswords in the book and I don't
actually think it's all thatmuch.
But I think I said it's PG-13.

(53:31):
There's going to be some, butit's not going to be terrible
and I think it's safe for you toread, I think.
But I wanted to give him asmany caveats as possible.
I will be totally cool if youchoose not to buy it.
I'm not going to be mad at youfor choosing not to read this

(53:51):
book.
But he was curious andeventually he decided to buy it
and he's like well, I'll try it.
I'm like OK, great, thank you.
If you don't like it, that'scool.
But yeah, there are people whoare very.
I don't want any cursing, soright up front, you know.
So it's a very successfulbouncer.

Speaker 2 (54:08):
But I also think there are probably people that
are absolutely drawn to it aswell.
You're going to get both sidesof that coin and it's a very
distinct dichotomy.
So you are.
You're automatically filtering,just with your title, the kind
of audience you want to reach.
I mean, the unfortunate sideeffect is the advertising, I

(54:29):
suppose.
Yeah, but if you go to cons Iguarantee Any con that you go to
you say you got this book, thistitle, like that's a huge.
Either they're going to go ohmy god, that's so cool, or
they're like dude and getautomatic filter.

Speaker 3 (54:43):
Yeah, I met somebody recently at Noir at the Bar in
Los Angeles and she had been atBoucher and she and I were
chatting in prison and she foundout who I was.
She's like, oh my god, I sawyour book Everywhere at Boucher,
which I went really everywhere,but she saw it everywhere.
And so I'm like, well, that'ssuccessful.
Like she saw it and she boughtit a copy at Noir that night.

(55:05):
So, yeah, it's definitelythere's going to be some who
will be turned off and there'sgoing to be some who will be
turned on by it, and that'sisn't that what it's supposed to
do?
Isn't that what a title issupposed to do?
Because I think sometimes wetalk about have the titles look
like everyone else's title, soeveryone knows it's the right
genre.
Have the covers look likeeverything else, so it's the

(55:27):
right genre, and I think thatcan be successful.
But I think at the same time, Ithink then you're just kind of
swimming in the same pond aseveryone else and it's just you
forget.
Like you just don't know who'sis who's or what is what, and I

(55:47):
think you wrote a book.
Why not stand out?
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (55:50):
And again I could be doing this all wrong, no, no,
but I think that we have said insome of our books for writers
and in courses and things likethat, and I think that this is
really true.
The thing that I learned isthat what readers want is
something familiar with a twist.
They don't want.

(56:10):
I should, I mean, I'd say, makea caveat on this.
There are some readers who justwant, like the whale readers
who read three romance novels aday.
They just love what they loveand that's what they love and
they want more and more and moreof that.
But a lot of readers puttingthose kind of readers aside a

(56:32):
lot of readers just they wantsomething familiar with a twist
and like, oh, come on, I'mtrying to think of the author's
name.
He's kind of a he's with a bigpublisher, but he wrote the
Southern Women's Guide Book ClubGuide to Killing Vampires and.

(56:54):
How to Sell a Haunted House.

Speaker 2 (56:55):
It's not Reddus Seger .

Speaker 1 (56:57):
It's.
I just read him and I feel likehe's made his career on that.
Now there's going to be a lotof people who are not going to
read the Southern Women's BookClub Guide to Sling Vampires
because it's too strange of acombo for them.
Like teenage boys who mightlove Goopy Horror are not going

(57:18):
to read about women's book clubs.
You know what I mean.
And some of these SouthernWomen's Book Clubs are not going
to be reading about killing novampires, so you know it's.
But there are those of usweirdos who like cozy, horror
and worthy, who are going to goto go to log straight to that.

(57:39):
I found my tribe.
Yeah, it's so quirky fun and he, you know I wish I was doing as
good as he's doing.

Speaker 3 (57:50):
So there was some right.
Like there's, there was some Ican't remember who it was, but
it was some blog post I readabout.
Like that this person was likeI think they were a musician.
Like I would rather have 1,000really rabid fans than 10,000
people who were kind ofinterested, like 10,000 people
who might buy the albums.
Like oh great, I've sold 10,000albums.
But like if you have a thousandfans who will buy everything

(58:14):
you put out, that's a better.

Speaker 1 (58:17):
And tell all their friends.

Speaker 3 (58:19):
And tell their friends who might dip in and out
, but like if you have a quartergroup of a thousand people who
are totally on your side, likethat's fabulous, like that's
your tribe and like you know,and because I guess I I'm going,
I guess what I'm trying toarticulate is that I think it's
better to be uniquely you anduniquely what you love to write

(58:40):
than try to write for a massmarket.
You know, I mean and I'm notsaying don't write for a mass
market but I feel likeultimately you're going to be a
lot happier if you're writingexactly what you want to write.
And then you find your tribeand you just have to accept
those consequences.
Your tribe might be a thousandpeople or it might be a million
people and hopefully everyonegets the million people audience

(59:03):
.
But like I know I'd be a lot.
I'm sure I'm a talented enoughwriter.
I could probably writesomething that's a little bit
more mainstream, somethingthat's a little lighter in
titles, something that you knowmight work for everybody, but I
don't know if that's asustainable thing for me as a as

(59:24):
a writer.
Like I don't know if if that'ssomething I really would want to
do for 10, 15, 20 years of mylife.
You know that I would ratherwrite.
I mean again, until someone'spaying me a lot of money to
write something.
I'm going to write what I wantto write and I will suffer the
consequences and also theplighters of that at the same

(59:45):
time.

Speaker 1 (59:48):
That's great.
Yeah, that was a really good.

Speaker 2 (59:51):
I mean I nailed it, that's the quote for the show.

Speaker 1 (59:55):
We're done.

Speaker 2 (59:57):
I think we came out back around Nice.

Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
No, that's really good.
Before we move toward wrap upthings, is there any final words
of wisdom or tips or anythingthat you would love to give
listeners?

Speaker 3 (01:00:15):
I feel like I've been giving so many tips.

Speaker 1 (01:00:17):
You don't have to give anymore.
You can say I'm done.

Speaker 3 (01:00:20):
And putting the caveat of like I could be
totally wrong.
No, I mean, I guess risk beingwrong.
I guess this you know, likeit's OK to do what you want to
do, like this isn't it's an art.
Like express how you want toexpress.
You know, like, if it's rightor wrong, whatever, but like
what is what is wrong in art?
Like again, unless you're likedoing something really horrific,

(01:00:41):
you're going to recover fromthe stake.
You know absolutely so.

Speaker 2 (01:00:46):
Well, why don't you tell everybody where they can
find more about you and yourbooks and find you online and
all the linky link links?

Speaker 3 (01:00:54):
The linky links you can find my books.
My books are available onAmazon.
You can search for LawrenceAllen and you can find Big
Effing Deal the second book andBig Fat F up the first book on
Amazon.
You can also have your favoritebookshop order them.
They're available to order forbookstores.
You can find them as ebooks.

(01:01:16):
The first book is wide now, sokind of almost any place you buy
ebooks you can get the firstone.
The second one's still a Kindle, exclusive for Amazon.
The audiobook actually for thesecond book is now available
just today, so there wasn't abook as well.
Thank you, that is alsosomething I would recommend.
Spend the money and do it right.

(01:01:36):
So both are available asaudiobooks.
So Audible, amazon and Apple.
You can find me on my website,laurencelanritescom, my
newsletter.
I'm always happy to take newsubscribers
LawrenceAllenRightssubstackcom.
You can find me on most ofsocial media.

(01:01:58):
You know instagramcom slashwritelarryright, facebookcom
writelarryright.
So if you have a favoritesocial media, try
writelarryright, and that mightbe me.
Yeah, those are the places tofind me.

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much forjoining us today.
This has been an amazingconversation, and so you know we
really appreciate you coming onthe show to our listeners.
Don't forget to make sure yousubscribe to the channel on your
show, or whatever you want tocall it on your favorite podcast
player.
Sorry, I've got a littleYouTube on the brain.

(01:02:32):
Subscribe to our channel.
Click the link, you know.
Bring the bell so that you getlike and subscribe, like and
subscribe All that stuff.
Yes, no, but we are doing thisis a very professional podcast.
Oh yeah, yeah, we're, we'rekilling it.
I learned something from youguys, but we are posting what

(01:02:56):
we're calling betweeny soads,which I guess we stole from
Joanna Penn as far as the name.
But every Thursday we areputting out tips and tricks for
productivity to help you winnano RIMO this year, gosh.
So we started with prep andthen we're getting into
productivity and we'll see wherewe go from there.

(01:03:17):
So make sure you subscribe sothat you don't miss a single
episode.
And then, until next time, keepyour stories rolling.

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