May 13, 2024 • 52 mins
Books get claimed by the world...
In this week's episode, we're taking a deep dive into audience building, author platform, and finding your tribe with publisher and agent, David Morris.
David Morris is the publisher of Lake Drive Books and a literary agent at Hyponymous Consulting, two innovative ventures working together to specialize in authors and books that help people heal, grow, and discover. David holds a PhD in psychology and religion from Drew University, and is the author of Lost Faith and Wandering Souls: A Psychology of Disillusionment, Mourning, and the Return of Hope. He lives with his wife in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and they have two daughters.
Follow Us!
David Morris
Website: https://lakedrivebooks.com
Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, Threads: @lakedrivebooks
The Author Wheel:
Website: www.AuthorWheel.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AuthorWheel
Greta Boris:
Website: www.GretaBoris.com
Facebook: @GretaBorisAuthor
Instagram: @GretaBoris
Megan Haskell:
Website: www.MeganHaskell.com
Facebook & Instagram: @MeganHaskellAuthor
TikTok: @AuthorMeganHaskell
*****
⭐️ SUPPORT THE SHOW ⭐️
If you're enjoying The Author Wheel Podcast, please consider supporting the show by clicking the link below! Your contribution helps us cover the ongoing expenses—like hosting and editing—that are critical to the creation of this podcast. Plus, you'll get a shout out on air and in the show notes!
FREE Mini Email Course
Have you ever struggled to explain to others exactly what you write? Or wondered which of the many fiction ideas running through your brain you should tackle? If so, The Author Wheel’s new mini-course might be your solution.
7 Days to Clarity: Uncover Your Author Purpose will help you uncover your core writing motivations, avoid shiny-thing syndrome, and create clear marketing language.
Each daily email will lead you step by step in defining your author brand, crafting a mission statement, and distilling that statement into a pithy tagline. And, best of all, it’s free.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everyone and welcome to the Author Wheel
podcast.
I'm Greta Boris, usa Todaybestselling mystery thriller
author.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And I'm Megan Haskell , award-winning fantasy
adventure author.
Together we are the AuthorWheel.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
The interview we have for you today is super
interesting and it's quitedifferent for us because David
Morris worked in big publishinghouses for most of his career
and you know, often we tendtoward the smaller publishers or
indie publishing.
But David Morris came out ofbig publishing when he separated
(00:34):
from the last house he workedfor, which I think was Tyndale,
but you can know if you listento the episode because it's in
there.
Then he started his ownpublishing company that was
aimed at the people he felt hadimportant stories to tell but
were never going to get thosebig publishing deals, which is a
(00:57):
very cool kind of businessmodel, I thought.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Yeah, he had some really good insights into the
broader publishing industry as awhole, which I thought was
fantastic.
It's a really it is, it's areally good conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
And then he talked quite a bit about platform
building, which we talk a lot inthe in more in the indie author
space, about marketing andadvertising and that kind of
thing.
But about marketing andadvertising and that kind of
thing, but platform building isimportant for everybody, and so
we talked a little bit aboutthat in there too.
(01:32):
So, but before we get into that, what has been going on with
you, megan?
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Well, honestly, I'm a little under the weather this
week, but I'm trying to makeprogress across all the
different things despite that.
So I finished setting up thebacker kit for the Last
Descendant Fulfillment.
So the special edition which iscoming soon so that will be
(01:57):
going out, hopefully in the nextfew days, and then the
anthology with Rachel Renner iscoming together nicely.
So we have a rough format doneand the cover's being finalized
and all of those little finaldetails are being put together.
So that should be ready toupload and send off to the
printer in the next couple ofweeks.
So it's a lot of little stuffmostly, but I am starting to
(02:23):
feel like I'm ticking things offmy list and being able to focus
again soon, which is nice.
What about you?
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Yeah, well, before I say what's going on with me, I
just want to say happy Mother'sDay to you.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Thank you.
Happy Mother's Day to you.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Thank you and happy Mother's Day to all the mothers
in the audience, because by thetime this airs, mother's Day
will have been yesterday and wehope you had a lovely Sunday.
So my big news is that theaudio for To Die For, first book
in the Mortician Murders, is upfor pre-order.
So I now have to get a hold ofsomeone at Tantor for marketing
(03:03):
details, it turns out.
So I now have to get a hold ofsomeone at Tantor for marketing
details.
It turns out and I don't thinkI said this on the podcast
before that my acquisitioneditor has left the company and
so I feel like I'm kind of likea hot potato, like they keep
passing me around departmentsand I don't really have an
actual contact person at thispoint.
(03:29):
But, I know how to be a squeakywheel.
So that's going to happen.
And then I'm sending out thefourth book, the Tower, which is
in the Almost True Crime series, off to my publisher this week
and then I will get started onthe fifth book immediately.
It started on the fifth bookimmediately.
The fifth book is called theKeep and it's kind of a fun plot
(03:51):
line.
My main character, she, runsinto a bunch of preppers who
live out in the Booneys in BlackStar Canyon, which, by the way
and this is true is supposed tobe the most haunted hiking trail
in Southern California, if youbelieve in that stuff.
I did not know that.
My husband is a nut.
He drives in a good way.
He drives, drives.
He rides his mountain bike tothe top of Black Star Canyon,
(04:15):
this most haunted hiking trail,to get there to watch the sunset
.
And then he comes all the waydown and it's not a short ride,
it's far, takes some hours.
Then comes all the way down andit's not a short ride, it's far
, takes some hours.
Then comes all the way backdown in the dark.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
He does have a light, but yeah, wow, that sounds like
not something I would want todo.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
No, but he said he has so little danger and
excitement in his life, you knowhe's got to do something.
Little danger and excitement inhis life, you know he's got to
do something.
So I, consequently, I have acouple of books that have
exciting, scary scenes set inBlack Star Canyon, because it
always seems kind of excitingand scary to me.
But anyway, enough about me,let's get on with the interview.
(05:01):
Well, since Megan and I writefiction, that's what we
primarily talk about.
We do write nonfictioncorrection, but it's for fiction
writers.
So, again, fiction isdefinitely our comfort zone.
But today, however, we aregoing to break that mold and
we're going to talk with a manwho writes, publishes and
(05:21):
coaches nonfiction writers.
David Morris is the publisherof Lake Drive Books, a literary
agent at Hyponymous Consulting,two innovative ventures working
together to specialize inauthors and books that help
people heal, grow and discover.
David holds a PhD in psychologyand religion from Drew
(05:43):
University and is the author ofLost Faith and Wandering Souls A
Psychology of Disillusionment,mourning and the Return of Hope.
He lives with his wife in GrandRapids, michigan, and they have
two daughters.
Welcome to the show, david.
We're so happy to have you.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Thanks for having me here, and I'm ready to blur the
lines between fiction andnonfiction if the two of you are
ready to blur those lines.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Absolutely.
You know, they blur in my lifeall the time.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
What's the difference ?
Truth is stranger than fiction.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Absolutely.
Quite often true, yes,absolutely.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Before we get into questions and things, I just
have to mention that mygrandparents lived in Grand
Rapids, michigan, and that'swhere I went when I was a kid,
on vacations and stuff like that, to go see my Grammy and Grampy
.
So how's everything in GrandRapids these days?
It's been a long time for me.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
It's good.
It's good, it's a wonderfultown.
Actually, the river goes rightthrough it.
They're not rapids right nowthey're trying to restore the
rapids but it's just a beautifultown to walk around in downtown
and just a lovely area,especially as spring and summer
kicks in.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Yeah, it's a cold winter.
I do remember that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Well, David, why don't you tell us a little bit
more about how you got intowriting and publishing and, you
know, becoming ultimately apublisher and agent?
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Yeah, yeah, sure, yeah, I'll try to do shorthand.
I, you know, I didn't know Iwas going to be in publishing.
It's often considered theaccidental profession for so
many of us, but some of us havebeen, you know, headed for it
all along.
You know, english major, that's.
That's what happens a lot.
But for me, I wanted to be apsychologist and a
(07:36):
psychotherapist, but I gotreally interested in religion
and spirituality has somethingto do with the way I was brought
up, but it was just afascinating thing to study, both
like kind of a humanisticpsychology but also a a
religious and spirituality.
You know, philosophy andtheology going on at the same
time.
But it just didn't.
You know, I ended up getting aPhD in that field.
(07:57):
It was great, I mean.
I, you know, one of the thingsI like to write about, I like to
say about writing non-fictionin particular and this is
probably true for fiction incertain ways is that when you
write like book length material,it really just sinks into your
bones, it sinks into your psyche, it affects you and that's like
that's, I think, one of thebeautiful things of the creative
process, especially withwriting, because that
self-expression, you know, itjust becomes part of who you are
(08:20):
, and that was true for me inwriting a dissertation which I
then published as my guinea pigbook for my publishing business.
Turns out a lot of my books areguinea pig books.
I don't even know where thatphrase came from.
It sounds weird saying it morethan once now, but I like it.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
We can coin that right here.
Guinea pig books.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
I didn't really, you know, so I couldn't really find
a lot of open positions in thefield that I studied in, so I
wound up working in politicalscience textbook publishing to
pay the bills in grad school.
From there I said, hey,publishing is a pretty cool gig
and I worked for 17 years inMidtown Manhattan, new York City
, for an inspirational publishercalled Guideposts Magazine.
(09:09):
They had a book division thatwas a direct-to-consumer book
business and that meaning wewould take books from other
publishers and create someourselves and market them
through the mail.
It was a very high volumebusiness.
It was a magazine with millionsof names on their mailing list
and I would be responsible forhelping to create these
(09:29):
brochures and acquire theproducts and create these
brochures and convince people onthe list to buy the books, and
I learned a lot about thepublishing business that way.
I learned about a lot of thepublishers out there, because we
would buy books from differentpublishers or license them, that
is.
And then, around 2013, I wasasked to be the publisher for
(09:53):
Zondervan, which is a majorreligious imprint based here in
Grand Rapids, michigan, movedfrom New Jersey to Michigan and
I went from being someone whowas kind of a you know a
licensing buying type person inpublishing uh to being a
publisher who was overseeing ateam of editors and marketers,
(10:15):
uh $30 million budget and uh,big advances, uh major known
authors in that marketplace.
Uh, working with agents andlearning the whole retail system
.
And I would say for me, one ofthe big things that happened
with my publishing career andit's true for anybody who's been
(10:35):
publishing the last 25 years orso is just watching what
happened with the digitalrevolution.
And that just totally changedthe whole entire landscape of
publishing.
And honestly, I think a lot ofus still haven't figured that
out yet, whether we're inside oreven outside of the industry.
Teams particularly have shrunkat publishing companies because
(11:06):
they don't need all thesesalespeople to go call on all
the books, the hundreds, youknow, the thousands and
thousands of bookstores outthere.
A lot of that has just changedand gone to online retail.
It just really, and then andthe other part about it is, and
I can go on and on about thisstuff but the other part about
it is it's also the way booksget discovered, got
(11:28):
revolutionized in that wholeprocess as well.
So, like you know, even today,when you promote a book, you're
like, oh, how do I get mediaabout this, or how do I get
media about that?
And that's still effective,it's still important and maybe
it's more true in the nonfictionspace.
But publishers really rely ononline platforms now more than
they ever did.
You know I experienced a lot ofthose things.
I worked in corporate publishingfor 20 plus years, 25 years,
(11:52):
and you know my history is aconsolidation story.
They moved my position toNashville, tennessee, and you
know it was not for me to go dothat.
So I decided you know, afterthinking a little while to start
my own publishing, independentpublishing company called Lake
Drive Books, and also at thesame time become a literary
(12:15):
agent.
Didn't quite plan it that way,but I'm really focusing on
spiritual books by people whoare really trying to look
forward to the future.
There's so much going on withpeople spiritually, religiously
these days people not going tochurches as much as they used to
, less religious of a nationthan we used to be, but people
(12:36):
are still trying to interpretthat and find their way forward.
And I think, with my backgroundin psychology and religion is,
you know, I've always had alanguage for understanding some
of these things, so I'm justsuper passionate about it.
So I work with, you know, onthe agency side, authors who can
garner advances and then on thepublishing side, authors who
are a little more starting out,and you know it's a hybrid
(12:59):
publisher, so they invest alittle bit of their money up
front.
I invest time and some moneyand it kind of the networks
overlap, invest time and somemoney and it kind of the
networks overlap and they helpeach other and it's been some of
the most meaningful publishingwork I've ever done.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
That's really exciting.
So at Hyponymous you arebasically taking clients and
pitching to, like your old bossor your old people at Zondervan
and places like that.
Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (13:25):
Yeah, theoretically that's true.
Yeah, I've been more in themore progressive spaces,
religiously speaking.
So not so much with the largeevangelical houses but with some
of the more mainlinedenominational houses or even
some of the broad market housesthat don't have a have so much
of a, you know, stake in the inthat game.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Yeah, but but the, like you said, agent or I mean
authors who could potentiallygarner in advance Correct Versus
a newer author that largerpublishing house might not be
willing to take a risk on Right.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
So, out of curiosity, is that decision based Like?
So one of the questions that weget a lot when people are
debating whether, to you know,pursue traditional publishing or
go indie.
One of the questions that weget a lot when people are
debating whether, to you know,pursue traditional publishing or
go indie, one of the thingsthat they're often concerned
about is how much of a platformdo you have to have starting out
?
So is that kind of thedifferentiator in your mind on
(14:20):
whether you can garner inadvance or whether you should go
through the more hybrid press,or how do you make that?
Like, if you have somebody cometo you with their manuscript,
how do you make that decision?
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Yeah, I would say platform is a big part of that
decision in publishing ingeneral and it's important even
to me at my publishing house,lectorate Books.
You know, if you're juststarting out, if you've got zero
Instagram followers or just afew hundred, you know it's got
to be stronger than that.
There's got to be an email list, there's got to be some sort of
online community that you'repart of which is indicative of
(14:53):
you being part of a real lifecommunity too, of online
community that you're a part of,which is indicative of you
being part of a real lifecommunity too.
But it depends.
You know there's a, there's anumber like there's the big five
publishers at the top I'mgesturing with my hands for your
listeners up high and, andthey're honestly, they're in the
business of going for thereally high, high level book
deals and they're looking for, Iwould say, a minimum of 25,000
(15:15):
Instagram followers in thenonfiction space.
It depends.
It can be different dependingon the publisher, the topic.
You know, the expertise of theauthor sometimes can influence
things.
But for me at Lake Drive, I'mprobably more like you know well
, if there's like three or four,three to five, maybe it would
be a nice sweet spot for me,depending on what kind of social
(15:36):
account.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Just to clarify for our listeners that'd be three to
5,000.
That would be not three to fivepeople.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
And that means different things for different
platforms.
Like, three to 5,000 on TikTokdoes not mean the same thing as
three to 5,000 on Instagram.
Usually TikTok's a littleyounger.
It's a little more impulsive ofan experience.
There's less engagement.
Younger, it's a little moreimpulsive of an experience,
there's less engagement.
So it's usually it doesn't meanas much.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Yeah, you're very much convicting me about
Instagram.
I do everything on Facebook.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
And that's good too.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
But I do have a mailing list.
I do have a mailing list.
But, yeah, Instagram I just get.
I just run out of social media,yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
And you have to create graphics for Instagram.
It's a pain, I know.
You can't do anything without agraphic.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
One day I'm going to have that assistant.
I cannot wait for you assistantout there in listening land and
you will do my Instagram for me.
But I digress, this was one ofour rabbit trails, so that's
really interesting.
So the thing and maybe this ismore, like you say, about
(16:43):
nonfiction than fiction, but oneof the things that newer
writers will say to us whenwe've taught classes on should
you self-publish, should you getan agent?
Which way should you go Is that, they've been told, it's all
about the quality of the book,and that's just really not so
anymore, is it?
I mean, yes, the quality of thebook is very, very important,
(17:06):
but there also has to be it's anand not an or yes, right,
Because, the book has to befabulous and it has to find an
audience or it's not going tomake anybody any money.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
It's a business, ultimately right.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
Yeah, you can't start out with a strategy of not
wanting to produce a good book.
You've got to want to writewell, say something meaningful,
tell a good story.
It's just too demoralizing notto do that.
But I will say, you know, wecould probably all think of
examples of books that we'veread that aren't that great and
you wonder why are peopletalking about this?
(17:43):
Books do get claimed by ourculture and sell really really
well.
There's a very famous pastor Ithink you know Greta that has a
very, very, very famous book andI can tell you a lot of people
in the publishing world are likewhy does that book work so good
?
Speaker 1 (18:00):
You're talking about Rick Warren and Purpose Driven
Life.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Yeah, I'm not going to say any more than that.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
No, as I love Rick Warren.
I adore the man.
But I will say, as a writer,the first time I get that book
in my hands I'm like so excited,this book is going to be
amazing and it's like, oh well,it's good.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Yeah, it is.
It does what it's supposed todo.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
It was not earth shattering to me, but apparently
it was earth shattering enoughto enough people.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
It got claimed at a time when and I think this is
true in general when there wasjust certain networks around it
and everybody wanted to be partof that network and that
particular author was thespokesperson for that network,
and so you had to get the book.
And then one thing leads toanother, and in publishing we
(18:52):
talk about books that get on aflywheel, and books just get.
They get claimed by our worldyeah, I really like.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
I really like that phraseology.
I don't think I've, or at leastit's never resonated as much,
but I don't think I've quiteheard it put that way but being
claimed because I, I, we can gooff on really deep rabbit holes
now but, uh, you know the, thetribalism of our society, of our
biology, quite honestly, ourgenetics, like our history, that
(19:21):
that tribalism it is, it's you.
For some reason, sometimes abook becomes a part of that
tribe and once that tribe hooksonto it, it becomes the thing,
and I like that, that idea ofthat claiming of that, that book
or that content or that youknow it's.
You know true of fandoms, Imean, I'm come from a fantasy
(19:42):
background, right, but it's trueof fandoms as well.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Yes, hey, 50 shades of gray I can.
Let's not even go there.
I'm just saying I really gotclaimed and and but and.
There always are so manyfactors like Yep, you can't
control it yeah.
No, I mean, you can't predict it, like I do know, with Purpose
Driven Life, one of the thingsthat blew it up was that some
(20:05):
woman there was a big news storySome woman was being held
captive by a escaped convict andhe was going to kill her and
she started reading him PurposeDriven Life and that was part of
the reason that she, you know,and so I mean, and that was all
over the news and everybody'slike, wow, that book saved her
life.
Maybe it'll save my life.
I want that book, you know.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
I remember that story .
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Yeah, and I knew that that blew it up, but I mean,
that was not something that RickWarren's publisher could have
manufactured.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
And I think this can all feel kind of demoralizing
because it's sort of like, wellyou know if it's all out of my
control and sometimes it is andthe publishers can't predict
what's going to happen.
Often it's a very speculativebusiness.
You know the whole idea ofpaying out advances and
publishing a certain number oftitles per year.
I used to think it's like the80-20 rule in publishing, where
(20:59):
20% of your books pay for 80% ofthe rest of the books, at least
in terms of front list.
I would say it's probably morelike you know 95-5 rule.
You know you're lucky to get 5%of your books in any given year
to work and break out and thoseare the ones you rely on to pay
(21:19):
for everything else.
But I do think that one of thethings I learned as a publisher
was we went a couple of yearswhere we didn't have a breakout
title like that, but we managedthe business really well and we
just about hit our financialgoals both years without a
(21:39):
breakout title.
Now it's a hit-driven business.
You'll hear people in publishing, from Marcus Dole, the former
CEO of Random House, all the waydown, saying hit-driven
business.
But we didn't have a hit bothof those years and I think that
you can translate that down tothe single author.
Whether you're the DIY author,self-publishing or you're
(22:01):
working as part with aconventional publishing house.
If you manage things well, youcan increase your chances of
success and you can get areasonably good you know lively
author and writing life going.
Does it?
Does it pay a lot of money?
Probably not, um, but but youcan do well.
If you, if you write a goodbook, if you pay attention to
(22:25):
what other authors are doingwith regard to platform work and
and you focus less on theadvance and more on your backend
royalty and run it like a goodbusiness, I think you can have
reasonable success in today'smarketplace.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
And see.
Now that, I think, kind ofleads us into the next question.
We usually ask about roadblocks.
I know one of the roadblocksthat I commonly see is that idea
that you have to be thebreakout success, that it's all
or nothing.
And I love what you just saidbecause I think that is so true
(23:02):
that it's a business like anyother business, maybe not like
any other business, but it is abusiness.
And yes, there are thesuperstars, but there's a lot of
mid-list authors who are payingthe rent, right, and you know.
So, kind of off of that topic,what do you think is the most
common roadblock for you seethat you see in maybe it's in
(23:26):
the self-help memoir space or inthe the authors, the writers or
would be authors that you workwith.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
Yeah, the most, the most common roadblock to just
finding sales success.
I think it gets to that wordthat we don't like to talk about
, especially as authors.
Is that word platform and howdo you?
But to me it's like how do youdefine platform?
I think there's a lot ofdifferent ways to define it, but
(23:55):
we have roadblocks and the ideaof like.
How do you define platform?
I think there's a lot ofdifferent ways to define it, but
we have roadblocks in the ideaof like.
Well, what is it?
How do we develop it?
When does it start paying offfor us?
I have sometimes said like, alot of times, when you think of
platform publishers, you're notthinking about those 50,000
Instagram followers I mentionedearlier.
(24:16):
I think it's definitely a morecomplex picture than that.
I will sometimes say to authorsthat even writing and
publishing books one afteranother, is a way to develop an
audience and to develop readerloyalty and platform.
That's probably more true inthe fiction space than anywhere
else, and that's what I'm seeinga lot of in terms of indie
(24:39):
authors and publishers.
With fiction is it's like it'smore about quantity.
I'm not going to saysacrificing quality, but it is a
focus on quantity and thatseems to work within the way our
digital marketplace isstructured.
The other thing, too, that theysay about, about, like Mike
(25:01):
Shatskin I don't know if any ifyou've ever heard of Mike
Shatskin.
He's an industry commentator,long time publishing veteran,
and he he loves to focus on.
Just look him up.
He says a lot of the samethings in each one of his
articles, so just read some ofthem and you'll get the gist.
But one of the things he oftensays in publishing today,
backlist matters a lot more thanit ever used to.
(25:23):
I mean, the way I kind of takethat to mean is, in online
spaces, it's so much easier forreaders to find an author and
find their other books than itever used to be when we had
physical bookstores.
It was very front-list drivenand maybe there was even a kind
of an implicit plannedobsolescence, an implicitly
(25:47):
planned obsolescence.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Now you need to say that five times fast.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Yeah, yeah, right, I'm a publisher, not a public
speaker.
Yeah, yes, but they're alwaystrying to find a new book to put
on their shelves.
Now, they have some of thestaples there, but they're
always trying to find the newbooks for the new book table and
so on.
But that means they had to getrid of the old books, and that's
(26:13):
what we call, in the publishingbusiness, returns.
You know they would returnthose rid of the old books, and
that's what we call inpublishing business returns.
You know they would returnthose books to the publisher.
Well, now you've got unlimitedshelf space with online retail,
namely Amazon.
You even have print on demand,so publishers don't have to keep
inventory of every single title, even if it's a slow seller.
(26:35):
Uh, so that just.
I think that just reallychanges the dynamic of the
marketplace.
And so now you know, publishersare realizing they're making a
lot more money on their backlists.
They're mining their back lists.
That's a that's a phrase welove to use in the business.
Uh, so I think for the new,up-and-coming authors, that's a
(26:57):
strategy in and of itself.
You know, have more than onetitle and people, if they love
your book, they're going to wantto go read the other books.
Each book has a way ofcontributing to the marketing
platform for future books.
I think that's a key thing.
So you're asking aboutroadblocks and I went kind of
deep there on just publishing aspart of an author platform.
(27:21):
But you know there are otherthings like especially in the
nonfiction world, so I'll speakto that more because that's what
I know.
But speaking can be a reallystrong driver of sales.
If you're an author who mightbe an expert on something or
you're an inspirational authorof some kind, if you can get you
know one or two speaking eventsa year, consistently, on and on
(27:44):
, you're going to grow anaudience that can really drive
things.
But then, beyond that, I wouldsay that a lot of it really is
that online platform part.
And when I say online platform,I say you got to have website
first, because that's sort oflike the hub and people don't go
(28:08):
to websites necessarily andfind them.
It's not necessarily somethingthat you know drives a lot of
engagement.
You know you can try to have ablog on your website with really
catchy titles and maybe you'llget that SEO juice on Google and
people will start finding yourstuff that way.
But it's basically the hub.
(28:29):
You know the big brochure.
Next thing publishers talk aboutis the email list.
If you've got an audience, thatI mean that's something that's
not subject to the algorithms ofsocial media, and so you can be
sure that if you're getting anopen rate of whatever it might
be 35 to 60% that's a pretty,that's a guaranteed built-in
(28:51):
audience.
And you know, I work withauthors who have 2,000 and 3,000
on their email list and I thinkthat's a pretty solid
foundation for them.
When I was at a big publisher,I had authors with 75,000 on
their email list and those werethe authors.
And these authors often werewomen.
They weren't like I was at areligious publisher, so they
(29:11):
weren't the male pastors from 25years ago.
They were the women who hadfound each other and found their
voices online, who wereestablishing the big email lists
and beating those pastors interms of their sales Go girls
For a male, very male-drivenpublishing world.
I always thought that wasreally fascinating.
It was also sometimes people ofcolor surprising everybody
because they knew how to connectwith their audience online.
(29:35):
So, yeah, so website email andthen you know, choose your
social media platform of choice.
And I think probably the biggestobstacle about online
platforming is just howexhausting we get about it, how
exhausting it can be in terms ofconstant posting.
(29:56):
But also, you know, our worldtends to get pretty cynical
about social media.
But in the publishing world,you know, I can point to
examples of people who arefinding community online.
They're finding friends,they're finding readers, they're
(30:16):
they're joining together incauses and creating a sense of
solidarity.
That all is I mean the whole,all of that is there.
And yes, there's also a lot oftrolls, there's also naysayers,
and I think it's a question offinding your positive,
(30:38):
encouraging vibe on socials andpeople will follow along.
You know, what works often onsocial media are like negative
hot takes.
People love the.
You know I gobble those up toosometimes and repost them, get
outraged, but no one.
You know our nervous systemscan't handle that for only so
long.
And then what also works isinspiring, inspirational quotes
(31:02):
or maybe informative,encouraging.
You know, not toxic positivity,not, you know you're not
superficial stuff, but thingsthat are, that are, um, from
your experience in particular,and a nice blend of like selfies
and inspirational quotes orencouraging quotes or
(31:22):
informative quotes um, I thinkare are really, really cool.
And so I think it's like a,it's like a mental block working
with social media, and not onlyis there like a sense of
community, but as an author, youhave an opportunity to have
direct contact with your readers.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
That's something that people people like overlook
that way too easily when theyget cynical about social media.
You know you have anopportunity today to you know.
Have them DM you to have themrespond to your email list.
Let me know what you'rethinking.
I love running launch teams forauthors or helping out with
launch teams.
It's been a very effective toolon the level that I'm working
on and I'm seeing otherpublishers doing it too
(32:05):
conventional houses all the timebut it's like that's hard work
marketing a book through thelaunch phase and that launch
team can be a lot of emails, alot of communication.
But oh, by the way, you getthese beautiful letters of
people who are reading your bookand you're just so floored and
moved and you're firstexperiencing this as an author
(32:25):
as you're about to launch a bookand it and it's like this is
not just stuff that I'm gettingimpersonally through my
publisher or or whatever I'm.
I have this person's emailaddress now and they have mine
and it can be extremelygratifying.
I sometimes say to authors whatwould you rather do?
You know, sell 10,000 books toa bunch of strangers or a
(32:47):
thousand books to people thatyou really get to know?
And, yeah, maybe there's moremoney in the 10,000 books, but
there's more meaning in thethousand.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
Yeah, you know, that's really true.
I have an ARC team.
It's usually somewhere around ahundred readers and I send them
my book about the month beforeit publishes and I have a group
of them.
It's anywhere from I don't know10 to 20 of them that are.
I call them my typo huntersBecause it doesn't matter how
(33:21):
many times that book has beenthrough my editor, me.
You know all the pro-writing thetypos get through yeah they do
and they find them, and but Ithink they're friends.
Now, you know, in my one seriesit's got six books in it and
(33:41):
they'll tell me like, oh, don'tyou remember in book two the
character did blah, blah, blah,blah and that doesn't fit with
this.
And I'm like, oh my gosh, youwere so right.
Like they know those booksbetter than I do and they feel
like friends those people.
And you know, it's just sogreat to wake up on the morning
(34:02):
that the book is published andthere's already, you know, 30 to
50 reviews on Amazon.
It's like, wow, you know.
So I think, and that is notsomething people could have done
in the past and it's alsosomething that I'm just saying
this of your traditionallypublished authors out there
Listen up, because I have a footin both worlds and I've known a
lot of traditionally publishedauthors that just don't do that.
(34:25):
And if you talk your publisherinto letting you let go of 50,
60 digital copies of your book,Right, right.
It's going to bless both of you.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
Which kind of leads me into asking you a little bit
about Lake Drive.
Since you are a hybridpublisher, I'm assuming you do a
little bit more of that kind ofthing with your writers.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
Yep, yep.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Coaching them through platform building and these
things we're talking about.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
I mean so much of the launch phase of marketing book
is reliant on the authorplatform.
So as soon as I sign an author,I do something I'm not sure
very many publishers do in anymeaningful way.
I have I scheduled two onlineplatform meetings and I critique
their platform.
You know I have a littleplatform meetings and I critique
(35:12):
their platform.
You know I have a little rubricthat I go through and I look at
all the ways that they show uponline and turn over every stone
and I just well, you know I'lltalk about.
You know I'll talk about like,have you used Amazon Author
Central?
Are you?
Is your profile on your picturethere on Goodreads?
You know what are you doing withyour emails?
You know why aren't youemailing?
Don't send such long emails.
(35:32):
Send shorter ones.
People don't want to read yourlong posts on Substack
necessarily, and you're notgoing to be some of those people
who are making millions ofdollars on Substack right away.
So start small.
I have a whole host of things Ilook at and I also create an
online metrics spreadsheet forevery author so you can sort of
(35:54):
track where you're going.
You know it's not meant to beperformative, it's not meant to
be comparing you to otherauthors.
It's more like going to adoctor and having your blood
pressure taken and your weighttaken.
How are things looking?
What's working here?
What's not working so well?
How can you track your progressand be excited about it too?
(36:15):
Oh that's brilliant.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
Do you offer that as a service for anyone you know?
Speaker 3 (36:21):
just create a simple spreadsheet and just start.
Just check your numbers at thebeginning of every month.
It can be fun to do that Emaillist numbers, watch them grow
and then that actually becomespart of the relationship with my
Lake Drive Books authors.
It sets the tone for how wepartner together and, you know,
(36:43):
it keeps them focused onplatform.
I really encourage authorsdon't listen to me Look and see
what some of the other authorsare doing Follow other authors,
Network with those authorsbecause you guys can share
audiences.
I'm sure that's not news tomost of your audience, but just
make this a constant part ofwhat you do as part of your
(37:04):
business as an author.
And I will keep after myauthors.
I had an author his book cameout in January, Trey Ferguson
and he's been really good withposting his newsletters lately.
But I noticed at the verybottom of his newsletter it just
kind of ends there's no littlebio from him, there's no mention
to his book or with a link.
And I just said, hey, great jobon your posts lately newsletter
(37:27):
posts.
I noticed you could maybe put alittle bio at the end.
And he said, hey, great job onyour post lately newsletter post
.
I noticed you could maybe put alittle bio at the end.
And he said he emailed me backtwo hours later.
Done, it'll be in.
All my other ones upcoming.
And I think little things likethat all matter.
They count, they add up.
And the fun thing about thattoo is you know, the most ideal
relationship with a publisher orpublishing professional that
(37:48):
you're working with is that themagic happens in the
relationship, not so much inwhat one person does for the
other.
It's not transactional, it'smore about relationship.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
Do you think that's true?
I mean, you obviously have abroad experience.
Do you think that's also truefor some of the bigger
publishing houses?
Because one of the critiquesthat we sometimes hear is that,
like when people go to the bighouses, they lose all control,
they lose all relationship.
It's not collaborative, it'sacquisitional right Versus a
(38:19):
smaller press or a hybrid presscan be more collaborative.
Does that seem accurate fromyour experience?
Does that seem accurate fromyour experience?
Speaker 3 (38:28):
I would say only a little bit, the difference
between a smaller publisher likean established conventional
publisher, where you know thename but maybe they're not one
of the big five, and there's avery big difference between
those two.
I would say that for mostconventional publishers who've
(38:49):
been around for a while, whetherthey're a smaller business or a
big one, there's very, there'sactually not a ton of difference
.
The big publishers do bringsome things to bear, but they
can be inconsistent from frompublishing team to publishing
team.
I mean, I just I just met witha very one of the very largest
(39:09):
publishers, one of my authors,and I'm pretty impressed with
what they're doing from amarketing point of view.
But in terms of getting rollingup their sleeves and getting
like in the author space and youknow, like that doctor, that
you want to really listen to youare they really doing that?
I don't think so, but neitherare some of the smaller ones.
(39:29):
They have sort of like theirtemplated steps that they're
going to do and there's not alot of, you know, there's not a
lot of deviation from that.
I mean they customize.
That's not to say that theydon't Wouldn't be fair, but but
(39:49):
to really like follow through,like some authors too, they need
a little more handholding thanothers, or they need a little
bit more accountability thanothers, and so so many of the
publishers they're not.
In my view, as a formerexecutive at a major house,
they're not empowering theirmarketing people to have enough
people, hours, brain space,expertise.
They have the expertise, butthey're not always able, they're
not always given the license orthe time to do it and really
(40:12):
lean in with their authors,which is where I think the magic
happens.
Now, at a smaller indie press,yeah, maybe you can get that.
I still think it's tough, andit's probably one of the biggest
opportunities in publishing isfor publishers to organize
around helping authors withtheir platforms.
No doubt about it in my mind,and here's why I say that too,
(40:36):
publishers used to usebookstores as their marketing
tool.
Bookstores were a marketingmechanism for them.
It was an engine ofdiscoverability.
Now it's the author platformsthat are the engine of
discoverability, and yet they'repaying those authors the same
royalties that they paid them 25, 30, 50 years ago, and yet they
(40:56):
rely on the authors to bringthose 50,000 Instagram.
I mean, that's a property.
You're bringing marketingproperty to the table and you're
not getting rewarded for it,except for getting a book deal.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
You know what I'm just going to say.
Preach it.
Yes, it is so true, you know itis so true.
(41:33):
You know it is so true.
And I think that it's justgoing to be interesting to see
like there's been so manychanges, like we talked about in
, because now that authors haveso much more ability to take
their destiny in their own hands, you know, giving away that
much just so that you can sayyou have a contract is becoming
(41:55):
less and less attractive for alot of people.
So I think that's reallyinteresting.
So tell us one more quick thing,because we're coming down to
the wire.
But I really want to hear sohow did you?
It sounds like the way you gotthe idea for Lake Drive
Publishing was because you kindof looked at what was happening
(42:16):
and the things you didn't likeand you kind of came up with a
plan of things that you thoughtwould be better.
But was there one instigatingthing that drove you to that?
Or starting your own publishingcompany?
What's your experience beendoing it?
Just give us a little bit ofbackground on that.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
You know, I think part of it is just having worked
in a business for 30 years in acorporate environment and
wanting to do my own thing.
I mean, you know, when you workfor a publishing company that's
in the business of payingsix-figure advances, that tends
to sort of level the content andthe variety and the types of
(42:59):
authors that you get to workwith.
And I didn't quite know this atfirst until I really started
getting the Lake Drive Booksbusiness going.
How much more on the ground andeven personally, spiritually
rooted, I was in working moredirectly with authors who were
saying different things thatsome of these bigger publishers,
(43:19):
either because of platform orbecause of content, it doesn't
fit their categories or itdoesn't fit their.
You know their culturalrequirements.
You know I'm able to work withauthors who are saying some
really cool things, really reallife stuff, gritty stories, and
you know that's just been, Ithink that's been part of my
(43:46):
motivation, but I think alsojust yeah, just seeing how
publishing has evolved.
You know that part aboutmarketing and platform.
I mean I remember one of mymarketing director at my
previous employer, you know, sawa need with one of his author
one of our authors and usedpublishing budget, marketing
budget, money to buy this authorpodcast equipment.
(44:07):
Now, if our bosses knew that'swhat we were doing, they
probably would have said, no,you can't do that, that's not
appropriate.
But that's what the need wasfor this particular author and
you know what, maybe this authordidn't blossom with a wonderful
podcast that had lots offollowers, but in a way, that
sort of for this particularauthor and you know what, maybe
this author didn't blossom witha wonderful podcast that had
lots of followers, but in a waythat sort of you know, provides
encouragement.
(44:28):
It says to that author webelieve in you and it maybe gets
that creative conversationgoing.
And I think that's what'smissing in publishing and where
there's a big opportunity inpublishing right now.
And maybe that's what motivatedme.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
I love that.
You also mentioned before westarted recording that you have
a new and maybe borderlinecontroversial book coming out in
the next couple of weeks.
Book coming out in the nextcouple of weeks.
I know our listeners are moreinterested in the business of
publishing, but why don't youtell us about that book real
quick too?
Speaker 3 (45:07):
Yeah, it's a wonderfully rich memoir by
Krista Brown, who is a clergyabuse survivor and advocate.
She's sort of a matriarch ofthat world, particularly on the
Protestant side.
You've heard of clergy abuse onthe Catholic side.
Well, it's there.
Just it's also there on theProtestant side, in her case,
(45:27):
the Southern Baptist Convention.
But it's a memoir that talksabout how there's patriarchy in
our culture.
There is religious systems thatare more intertwined with power
than we realize Often malepower.
(45:49):
In the Southern Baptist worldwomen aren't allowed to be
spiritual leaders, they're notallowed to preach, except for
Rick Warren's church.
They changed and there was evena kerfuffle around that.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
We got kicked out of the Southern, which I'm very
proud of.
Speaker 3 (46:05):
To Rick's credit and your church's credit.
But her book sort of talksabout the way the family
dysfunction was connectedculturally to a church world
that harbors or even sort ofdevelops or creates a safe space
(46:26):
for men to abuse teenage girls,like Krista was when she was
young.
Krista's now a retiredappellate attorney.
She's had a very successfulcareer as an attorney.
But you should see her go intotown on Twitter.
I mean she spends.
She spends like I don't know howmuch of her time as just a
grandma doing grandma things,and then the rest of the time
(46:47):
she's on her computer holdingthe world accountable for
whether they're publishing alist of abusers, creating
oversight over the churches inthe Southern Baptist world.
It's all about being anindependent church.
They try to foster localautonomy, but that also means
there's no institutionaloversight and it allows for
(47:10):
abuses to happen.
It just makes that possible.
But the real part about herstory is how she transformed and
got out and became her ownperson, bit by bit by bit.
The tagline for the book isthere's power in truth telling,
and truth telling has a way ofsnowballing and that's what this
(47:33):
whole book is about.
As you read along.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
Well, I love that.
Amazing the independent spirit.
You know that's just.
It's what kind of a metaphorfor what we were talking about,
about the publishing world too.
You know that the longersomething's been around, the
more entrenched it gets, thehigher the power grid.
You know that, as we alwaysused to say with our kids
(47:58):
growing up, you know, powercorrupts and absolute power
corrupts absolutely.
And things got to shuffle andsort themselves out.
So that's interesting, butanyway, why don't you tell our
listeners where they can findout more about you and about
Hyponymous and about Lake DriveBooks?
Speaker 3 (48:19):
Sure sure, yeah.
Well, lake Drive Books islakedrivebookscom.
We're on social media is atLake Drive Books.
Hyponymous isH-Y-P-O-N-Y-M-O-U-S.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
We don't like our show notes.
Speaker 3 (48:36):
I'm usually pretty good about that, it's a hyponym.
You know you have to come upwith these names where no one's
taken them online and you cancome up with a URL for your
website.
So look up hyponym.
Hyponym, it is a subset of ahigher class of thing, like a
daisy is a hyponym for flower,oh, or spoon is a hyponym for
(48:58):
cutlery, and so hyponymous isall about creating specificity
in your writing, in your authorbrand, not trying to be like
everybody else.
I think that's the world we'rein right now.
I think that's where we succeedis when we can create
specificity out of who we are.
So that's at hyponymouscom, andI'm at davidrmorrisme for my
(49:21):
little stuff, but I'm not asgood with that website.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
You only do so many things.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
I feel like we all have a little very neglected
part of the online world, likemy Instagram page, Very
neglected.
Well, that's just great and Ilove this conversation and
everything we talked about andit's just interesting.
We've had some conversationswith people in the very much in
(49:50):
the independently, in theindependent author space that
are really, you know, like whatused to be 20 books to 50K,
which is going to be AuthorNation, and the messaging is
coming.
It's the same, the messaging.
We just had a big conversationwith Kevin Tomlinson and
everybody is saying the samething from all different
(50:12):
directions and it's sointeresting to hear the same
message from you, David.
It's that authenticity, thatbecoming yourself, being clear
about your brand and not beingshy about it.
So to listeners, don't forgetand I keep thinking that I'm
going to stop mentioning this,but every conversation we have,
(50:33):
it just leads me to it Megan andI have a free seven-day course
on the website and it is calledSeven Days to Clarity Uncover
your Author Purpose, and you cangrab that on the homepage or
pretty much anywhere.
It's also on authorwheelcomslash stuff, which is our very
(50:55):
cleverly named page with freestuff on it named page with free
stuff on it.
And also, if you did enjoy thispodcast and if you would like
to hear your book or yourproduct or service for writers
mentioned on air, we wouldsurely appreciate it if you
would consider sponsoring us.
You can do that for as littleas $3 a month, and if you do, we
(51:16):
will tell the world about you,and your support helps us pay
for editing, hosting andeverything that goes into
bringing this podcast to you.
So thanks again for listeningand thank you again, David.
Thank you.
And till next time, keep yourstories rolling.
Hi everyone and welcome to the Author Wheel
podcast.
I'm Greta Boris, usa Todaybestselling mystery thriller
author.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And I'm Megan Haskell , award-winning fantasy
adventure author.
Together we are the AuthorWheel.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
The interview we have for you today is super
interesting and it's quitedifferent for us because David
Morris worked in big publishinghouses for most of his career
and you know, often we tendtoward the smaller publishers or
indie publishing.
But David Morris came out ofbig publishing when he separated
(00:34):
from the last house he workedfor, which I think was Tyndale,
but you can know if you listento the episode because it's in
there.
Then he started his ownpublishing company that was
aimed at the people he felt hadimportant stories to tell but
were never going to get thosebig publishing deals, which is a
(00:57):
very cool kind of businessmodel, I thought.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Yeah, he had some really good insights into the
broader publishing industry as awhole, which I thought was
fantastic.
It's a really it is, it's areally good conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
And then he talked quite a bit about platform
building, which we talk a lot inthe in more in the indie author
space, about marketing andadvertising and that kind of
thing.
But about marketing andadvertising and that kind of
thing, but platform building isimportant for everybody, and so
we talked a little bit aboutthat in there too.
(01:32):
So, but before we get into that, what has been going on with
you, megan?
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Well, honestly, I'm a little under the weather this
week, but I'm trying to makeprogress across all the
different things despite that.
So I finished setting up thebacker kit for the Last
Descendant Fulfillment.
So the special edition which iscoming soon so that will be
(01:57):
going out, hopefully in the nextfew days, and then the
anthology with Rachel Renner iscoming together nicely.
So we have a rough format doneand the cover's being finalized
and all of those little finaldetails are being put together.
So that should be ready toupload and send off to the
printer in the next couple ofweeks.
So it's a lot of little stuffmostly, but I am starting to
(02:23):
feel like I'm ticking things offmy list and being able to focus
again soon, which is nice.
What about you?
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Yeah, well, before I say what's going on with me, I
just want to say happy Mother'sDay to you.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Thank you.
Happy Mother's Day to you.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Thank you and happy Mother's Day to all the mothers
in the audience, because by thetime this airs, mother's Day
will have been yesterday and wehope you had a lovely Sunday.
So my big news is that theaudio for To Die For, first book
in the Mortician Murders, is upfor pre-order.
So I now have to get a hold ofsomeone at Tantor for marketing
(03:03):
details, it turns out.
So I now have to get a hold ofsomeone at Tantor for marketing
details.
It turns out and I don't thinkI said this on the podcast
before that my acquisitioneditor has left the company and
so I feel like I'm kind of likea hot potato, like they keep
passing me around departmentsand I don't really have an
actual contact person at thispoint.
(03:29):
But, I know how to be a squeakywheel.
So that's going to happen.
And then I'm sending out thefourth book, the Tower, which is
in the Almost True Crime series, off to my publisher this week
and then I will get started onthe fifth book immediately.
It started on the fifth bookimmediately.
The fifth book is called theKeep and it's kind of a fun plot
(03:51):
line.
My main character, she, runsinto a bunch of preppers who
live out in the Booneys in BlackStar Canyon, which, by the way
and this is true is supposed tobe the most haunted hiking trail
in Southern California, if youbelieve in that stuff.
I did not know that.
My husband is a nut.
He drives in a good way.
He drives, drives.
He rides his mountain bike tothe top of Black Star Canyon,
(04:15):
this most haunted hiking trail,to get there to watch the sunset
.
And then he comes all the waydown and it's not a short ride,
it's far, takes some hours.
Then comes all the way down andit's not a short ride, it's far
, takes some hours.
Then comes all the way backdown in the dark.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
He does have a light, but yeah, wow, that sounds like
not something I would want todo.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
No, but he said he has so little danger and
excitement in his life, you knowhe's got to do something.
Little danger and excitement inhis life, you know he's got to
do something.
So I, consequently, I have acouple of books that have
exciting, scary scenes set inBlack Star Canyon, because it
always seems kind of excitingand scary to me.
But anyway, enough about me,let's get on with the interview.
(05:01):
Well, since Megan and I writefiction, that's what we
primarily talk about.
We do write nonfictioncorrection, but it's for fiction
writers.
So, again, fiction isdefinitely our comfort zone.
But today, however, we aregoing to break that mold and
we're going to talk with a manwho writes, publishes and
(05:21):
coaches nonfiction writers.
David Morris is the publisherof Lake Drive Books, a literary
agent at Hyponymous Consulting,two innovative ventures working
together to specialize inauthors and books that help
people heal, grow and discover.
David holds a PhD in psychologyand religion from Drew
(05:43):
University and is the author ofLost Faith and Wandering Souls A
Psychology of Disillusionment,mourning and the Return of Hope.
He lives with his wife in GrandRapids, michigan, and they have
two daughters.
Welcome to the show, david.
We're so happy to have you.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Thanks for having me here, and I'm ready to blur the
lines between fiction andnonfiction if the two of you are
ready to blur those lines.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Absolutely.
You know, they blur in my lifeall the time.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
What's the difference ?
Truth is stranger than fiction.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Absolutely.
Quite often true, yes,absolutely.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Before we get into questions and things, I just
have to mention that mygrandparents lived in Grand
Rapids, michigan, and that'swhere I went when I was a kid,
on vacations and stuff like that, to go see my Grammy and Grampy
.
So how's everything in GrandRapids these days?
It's been a long time for me.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
It's good.
It's good, it's a wonderfultown.
Actually, the river goes rightthrough it.
They're not rapids right nowthey're trying to restore the
rapids but it's just a beautifultown to walk around in downtown
and just a lovely area,especially as spring and summer
kicks in.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Yeah, it's a cold winter.
I do remember that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Well, David, why don't you tell us a little bit
more about how you got intowriting and publishing and, you
know, becoming ultimately apublisher and agent?
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Yeah, yeah, sure, yeah, I'll try to do shorthand.
I, you know, I didn't know Iwas going to be in publishing.
It's often considered theaccidental profession for so
many of us, but some of us havebeen, you know, headed for it
all along.
You know, english major, that's.
That's what happens a lot.
But for me, I wanted to be apsychologist and a
(07:36):
psychotherapist, but I gotreally interested in religion
and spirituality has somethingto do with the way I was brought
up, but it was just afascinating thing to study, both
like kind of a humanisticpsychology but also a a
religious and spirituality.
You know, philosophy andtheology going on at the same
time.
But it just didn't.
You know, I ended up getting aPhD in that field.
(07:57):
It was great, I mean.
I, you know, one of the thingsI like to write about, I like to
say about writing non-fictionin particular and this is
probably true for fiction incertain ways is that when you
write like book length material,it really just sinks into your
bones, it sinks into your psyche, it affects you and that's like
that's, I think, one of thebeautiful things of the creative
process, especially withwriting, because that
self-expression, you know, itjust becomes part of who you are
(08:20):
, and that was true for me inwriting a dissertation which I
then published as my guinea pigbook for my publishing business.
Turns out a lot of my books areguinea pig books.
I don't even know where thatphrase came from.
It sounds weird saying it morethan once now, but I like it.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
We can coin that right here.
Guinea pig books.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
I didn't really, you know, so I couldn't really find
a lot of open positions in thefield that I studied in, so I
wound up working in politicalscience textbook publishing to
pay the bills in grad school.
From there I said, hey,publishing is a pretty cool gig
and I worked for 17 years inMidtown Manhattan, new York City
, for an inspirational publishercalled Guideposts Magazine.
(09:09):
They had a book division thatwas a direct-to-consumer book
business and that meaning wewould take books from other
publishers and create someourselves and market them
through the mail.
It was a very high volumebusiness.
It was a magazine with millionsof names on their mailing list
and I would be responsible forhelping to create these
(09:29):
brochures and acquire theproducts and create these
brochures and convince people onthe list to buy the books, and
I learned a lot about thepublishing business that way.
I learned about a lot of thepublishers out there, because we
would buy books from differentpublishers or license them, that
is.
And then, around 2013, I wasasked to be the publisher for
(09:53):
Zondervan, which is a majorreligious imprint based here in
Grand Rapids, michigan, movedfrom New Jersey to Michigan and
I went from being someone whowas kind of a you know a
licensing buying type person inpublishing uh to being a
publisher who was overseeing ateam of editors and marketers,
(10:15):
uh $30 million budget and uh,big advances, uh major known
authors in that marketplace.
Uh, working with agents andlearning the whole retail system
.
And I would say for me, one ofthe big things that happened
with my publishing career andit's true for anybody who's been
(10:35):
publishing the last 25 years orso is just watching what
happened with the digitalrevolution.
And that just totally changedthe whole entire landscape of
publishing.
And honestly, I think a lot ofus still haven't figured that
out yet, whether we're inside oreven outside of the industry.
Teams particularly have shrunkat publishing companies because
(11:06):
they don't need all thesesalespeople to go call on all
the books, the hundreds, youknow, the thousands and
thousands of bookstores outthere.
A lot of that has just changedand gone to online retail.
It just really, and then andthe other part about it is, and
I can go on and on about thisstuff but the other part about
it is it's also the way booksget discovered, got
(11:28):
revolutionized in that wholeprocess as well.
So, like you know, even today,when you promote a book, you're
like, oh, how do I get mediaabout this, or how do I get
media about that?
And that's still effective,it's still important and maybe
it's more true in the nonfictionspace.
But publishers really rely ononline platforms now more than
they ever did.
You know I experienced a lot ofthose things.
I worked in corporate publishingfor 20 plus years, 25 years,
(11:52):
and you know my history is aconsolidation story.
They moved my position toNashville, tennessee, and you
know it was not for me to go dothat.
So I decided you know, afterthinking a little while to start
my own publishing, independentpublishing company called Lake
Drive Books, and also at thesame time become a literary
(12:15):
agent.
Didn't quite plan it that way,but I'm really focusing on
spiritual books by people whoare really trying to look
forward to the future.
There's so much going on withpeople spiritually, religiously
these days people not going tochurches as much as they used to
, less religious of a nationthan we used to be, but people
(12:36):
are still trying to interpretthat and find their way forward.
And I think, with my backgroundin psychology and religion is,
you know, I've always had alanguage for understanding some
of these things, so I'm justsuper passionate about it.
So I work with, you know, onthe agency side, authors who can
garner advances and then on thepublishing side, authors who
are a little more starting out,and you know it's a hybrid
(12:59):
publisher, so they invest alittle bit of their money up
front.
I invest time and some moneyand it kind of the networks
overlap, invest time and somemoney and it kind of the
networks overlap and they helpeach other and it's been some of
the most meaningful publishingwork I've ever done.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
That's really exciting.
So at Hyponymous you arebasically taking clients and
pitching to, like your old bossor your old people at Zondervan
and places like that.
Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (13:25):
Yeah, theoretically that's true.
Yeah, I've been more in themore progressive spaces,
religiously speaking.
So not so much with the largeevangelical houses but with some
of the more mainlinedenominational houses or even
some of the broad market housesthat don't have a have so much
of a, you know, stake in the inthat game.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Yeah, but but the, like you said, agent or I mean
authors who could potentiallygarner in advance Correct Versus
a newer author that largerpublishing house might not be
willing to take a risk on Right.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
So, out of curiosity, is that decision based Like?
So one of the questions that weget a lot when people are
debating whether, to you know,pursue traditional publishing or
go indie.
One of the questions that weget a lot when people are
debating whether, to you know,pursue traditional publishing or
go indie, one of the thingsthat they're often concerned
about is how much of a platformdo you have to have starting out
?
So is that kind of thedifferentiator in your mind on
(14:20):
whether you can garner inadvance or whether you should go
through the more hybrid press,or how do you make that?
Like, if you have somebody cometo you with their manuscript,
how do you make that decision?
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Yeah, I would say platform is a big part of that
decision in publishing ingeneral and it's important even
to me at my publishing house,lectorate Books.
You know, if you're juststarting out, if you've got zero
Instagram followers or just afew hundred, you know it's got
to be stronger than that.
There's got to be an email list, there's got to be some sort of
online community that you'repart of which is indicative of
(14:53):
you being part of a real lifecommunity too, of online
community that you're a part of,which is indicative of you
being part of a real lifecommunity too.
But it depends.
You know there's a, there's anumber like there's the big five
publishers at the top I'mgesturing with my hands for your
listeners up high and, andthey're honestly, they're in the
business of going for thereally high, high level book
deals and they're looking for, Iwould say, a minimum of 25,000
(15:15):
Instagram followers in thenonfiction space.
It depends.
It can be different dependingon the publisher, the topic.
You know, the expertise of theauthor sometimes can influence
things.
But for me at Lake Drive, I'mprobably more like you know well
, if there's like three or four,three to five, maybe it would
be a nice sweet spot for me,depending on what kind of social
(15:36):
account.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Just to clarify for our listeners that'd be three to
5,000.
That would be not three to fivepeople.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
And that means different things for different
platforms.
Like, three to 5,000 on TikTokdoes not mean the same thing as
three to 5,000 on Instagram.
Usually TikTok's a littleyounger.
It's a little more impulsive ofan experience.
There's less engagement.
Younger, it's a little moreimpulsive of an experience,
there's less engagement.
So it's usually it doesn't meanas much.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Yeah, you're very much convicting me about
Instagram.
I do everything on Facebook.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
And that's good too.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
But I do have a mailing list.
I do have a mailing list.
But, yeah, Instagram I just get.
I just run out of social media,yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:15):
And you have to create graphics for Instagram.
It's a pain, I know.
You can't do anything without agraphic.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
One day I'm going to have that assistant.
I cannot wait for you assistantout there in listening land and
you will do my Instagram for me.
But I digress, this was one ofour rabbit trails, so that's
really interesting.
So the thing and maybe this ismore, like you say, about
(16:43):
nonfiction than fiction, but oneof the things that newer
writers will say to us whenwe've taught classes on should
you self-publish, should you getan agent?
Which way should you go Is that, they've been told, it's all
about the quality of the book,and that's just really not so
anymore, is it?
I mean, yes, the quality of thebook is very, very important,
(17:06):
but there also has to be it's anand not an or yes, right,
Because, the book has to befabulous and it has to find an
audience or it's not going tomake anybody any money.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
It's a business, ultimately right.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
Yeah, you can't start out with a strategy of not
wanting to produce a good book.
You've got to want to writewell, say something meaningful,
tell a good story.
It's just too demoralizing notto do that.
But I will say, you know, wecould probably all think of
examples of books that we'veread that aren't that great and
you wonder why are peopletalking about this?
(17:43):
Books do get claimed by ourculture and sell really really
well.
There's a very famous pastor Ithink you know Greta that has a
very, very, very famous book andI can tell you a lot of people
in the publishing world are likewhy does that book work so good
?
Speaker 1 (18:00):
You're talking about Rick Warren and Purpose Driven
Life.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Yeah, I'm not going to say any more than that.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
No, as I love Rick Warren.
I adore the man.
But I will say, as a writer,the first time I get that book
in my hands I'm like so excited,this book is going to be
amazing and it's like, oh well,it's good.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Yeah, it is.
It does what it's supposed todo.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
It was not earth shattering to me, but apparently
it was earth shattering enoughto enough people.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
It got claimed at a time when and I think this is
true in general when there wasjust certain networks around it
and everybody wanted to be partof that network and that
particular author was thespokesperson for that network,
and so you had to get the book.
And then one thing leads toanother, and in publishing we
(18:52):
talk about books that get on aflywheel, and books just get.
They get claimed by our worldyeah, I really like.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
I really like that phraseology.
I don't think I've, or at leastit's never resonated as much,
but I don't think I've quiteheard it put that way but being
claimed because I, I, we can gooff on really deep rabbit holes
now but, uh, you know the, thetribalism of our society, of our
biology, quite honestly, ourgenetics, like our history, that
(19:21):
that tribalism it is, it's you.
For some reason, sometimes abook becomes a part of that
tribe and once that tribe hooksonto it, it becomes the thing,
and I like that, that idea ofthat claiming of that, that book
or that content or that youknow it's.
You know true of fandoms, Imean, I'm come from a fantasy
(19:42):
background, right, but it's trueof fandoms as well.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Yes, hey, 50 shades of gray I can.
Let's not even go there.
I'm just saying I really gotclaimed and and but and.
There always are so manyfactors like Yep, you can't
control it yeah.
No, I mean, you can't predict it, like I do know, with Purpose
Driven Life, one of the thingsthat blew it up was that some
(20:05):
woman there was a big news storySome woman was being held
captive by a escaped convict andhe was going to kill her and
she started reading him PurposeDriven Life and that was part of
the reason that she, you know,and so I mean, and that was all
over the news and everybody'slike, wow, that book saved her
life.
Maybe it'll save my life.
I want that book, you know.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
I remember that story .
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Yeah, and I knew that that blew it up, but I mean,
that was not something that RickWarren's publisher could have
manufactured.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
And I think this can all feel kind of demoralizing
because it's sort of like, wellyou know if it's all out of my
control and sometimes it is andthe publishers can't predict
what's going to happen.
Often it's a very speculativebusiness.
You know the whole idea ofpaying out advances and
publishing a certain number oftitles per year.
I used to think it's like the80-20 rule in publishing, where
(20:59):
20% of your books pay for 80% ofthe rest of the books, at least
in terms of front list.
I would say it's probably morelike you know 95-5 rule.
You know you're lucky to get 5%of your books in any given year
to work and break out and thoseare the ones you rely on to pay
(21:19):
for everything else.
But I do think that one of thethings I learned as a publisher
was we went a couple of yearswhere we didn't have a breakout
title like that, but we managedthe business really well and we
just about hit our financialgoals both years without a
(21:39):
breakout title.
Now it's a hit-driven business.
You'll hear people in publishing, from Marcus Dole, the former
CEO of Random House, all the waydown, saying hit-driven
business.
But we didn't have a hit bothof those years and I think that
you can translate that down tothe single author.
Whether you're the DIY author,self-publishing or you're
(22:01):
working as part with aconventional publishing house.
If you manage things well, youcan increase your chances of
success and you can get areasonably good you know lively
author and writing life going.
Does it?
Does it pay a lot of money?
Probably not, um, but but youcan do well.
If you, if you write a goodbook, if you pay attention to
(22:25):
what other authors are doingwith regard to platform work and
and you focus less on theadvance and more on your backend
royalty and run it like a goodbusiness, I think you can have
reasonable success in today'smarketplace.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
And see.
Now that, I think, kind ofleads us into the next question.
We usually ask about roadblocks.
I know one of the roadblocksthat I commonly see is that idea
that you have to be thebreakout success, that it's all
or nothing.
And I love what you just saidbecause I think that is so true
(23:02):
that it's a business like anyother business, maybe not like
any other business, but it is abusiness.
And yes, there are thesuperstars, but there's a lot of
mid-list authors who are payingthe rent, right, and you know.
So, kind of off of that topic,what do you think is the most
common roadblock for you seethat you see in maybe it's in
(23:26):
the self-help memoir space or inthe the authors, the writers or
would be authors that you workwith.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
Yeah, the most, the most common roadblock to just
finding sales success.
I think it gets to that wordthat we don't like to talk about
, especially as authors.
Is that word platform and howdo you?
But to me it's like how do youdefine platform?
I think there's a lot ofdifferent ways to define it, but
(23:55):
we have roadblocks and the ideaof like.
How do you define platform?
I think there's a lot ofdifferent ways to define it, but
we have roadblocks in the ideaof like.
Well, what is it?
How do we develop it?
When does it start paying offfor us?
I have sometimes said like, alot of times, when you think of
platform publishers, you're notthinking about those 50,000
Instagram followers I mentionedearlier.
(24:16):
I think it's definitely a morecomplex picture than that.
I will sometimes say to authorsthat even writing and
publishing books one afteranother, is a way to develop an
audience and to develop readerloyalty and platform.
That's probably more true inthe fiction space than anywhere
else, and that's what I'm seeinga lot of in terms of indie
(24:39):
authors and publishers.
With fiction is it's like it'smore about quantity.
I'm not going to saysacrificing quality, but it is a
focus on quantity and thatseems to work within the way our
digital marketplace isstructured.
The other thing, too, that theysay about, about, like Mike
(25:01):
Shatskin I don't know if any ifyou've ever heard of Mike
Shatskin.
He's an industry commentator,long time publishing veteran,
and he he loves to focus on.
Just look him up.
He says a lot of the samethings in each one of his
articles, so just read some ofthem and you'll get the gist.
But one of the things he oftensays in publishing today,
backlist matters a lot more thanit ever used to.
(25:23):
I mean, the way I kind of takethat to mean is, in online
spaces, it's so much easier forreaders to find an author and
find their other books than itever used to be when we had
physical bookstores.
It was very front-list drivenand maybe there was even a kind
of an implicit plannedobsolescence, an implicitly
(25:47):
planned obsolescence.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Now you need to say that five times fast.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Yeah, yeah, right, I'm a publisher, not a public
speaker.
Yeah, yes, but they're alwaystrying to find a new book to put
on their shelves.
Now, they have some of thestaples there, but they're
always trying to find the newbooks for the new book table and
so on.
But that means they had to getrid of the old books, and that's
(26:13):
what we call, in the publishingbusiness, returns.
You know they would returnthose rid of the old books, and
that's what we call inpublishing business returns.
You know they would returnthose books to the publisher.
Well, now you've got unlimitedshelf space with online retail,
namely Amazon.
You even have print on demand,so publishers don't have to keep
inventory of every single title, even if it's a slow seller.
(26:35):
Uh, so that just.
I think that just reallychanges the dynamic of the
marketplace.
And so now you know, publishersare realizing they're making a
lot more money on their backlists.
They're mining their back lists.
That's a that's a phrase welove to use in the business.
Uh, so I think for the new,up-and-coming authors, that's a
(26:57):
strategy in and of itself.
You know, have more than onetitle and people, if they love
your book, they're going to wantto go read the other books.
Each book has a way ofcontributing to the marketing
platform for future books.
I think that's a key thing.
So you're asking aboutroadblocks and I went kind of
deep there on just publishing aspart of an author platform.
(27:21):
But you know there are otherthings like especially in the
nonfiction world, so I'll speakto that more because that's what
I know.
But speaking can be a reallystrong driver of sales.
If you're an author who mightbe an expert on something or
you're an inspirational authorof some kind, if you can get you
know one or two speaking eventsa year, consistently, on and on
(27:44):
, you're going to grow anaudience that can really drive
things.
But then, beyond that, I wouldsay that a lot of it really is
that online platform part.
And when I say online platform,I say you got to have website
first, because that's sort oflike the hub and people don't go
(28:08):
to websites necessarily andfind them.
It's not necessarily somethingthat you know drives a lot of
engagement.
You know you can try to have ablog on your website with really
catchy titles and maybe you'llget that SEO juice on Google and
people will start finding yourstuff that way.
But it's basically the hub.
(28:29):
You know the big brochure.
Next thing publishers talk aboutis the email list.
If you've got an audience, thatI mean that's something that's
not subject to the algorithms ofsocial media, and so you can be
sure that if you're getting anopen rate of whatever it might
be 35 to 60% that's a pretty,that's a guaranteed built-in
(28:51):
audience.
And you know, I work withauthors who have 2,000 and 3,000
on their email list and I thinkthat's a pretty solid
foundation for them.
When I was at a big publisher,I had authors with 75,000 on
their email list and those werethe authors.
And these authors often werewomen.
They weren't like I was at areligious publisher, so they
(29:11):
weren't the male pastors from 25years ago.
They were the women who hadfound each other and found their
voices online, who wereestablishing the big email lists
and beating those pastors interms of their sales Go girls
For a male, very male-drivenpublishing world.
I always thought that wasreally fascinating.
It was also sometimes people ofcolor surprising everybody
because they knew how to connectwith their audience online.
(29:35):
So, yeah, so website email andthen you know, choose your
social media platform of choice.
And I think probably the biggestobstacle about online
platforming is just howexhausting we get about it, how
exhausting it can be in terms ofconstant posting.
(29:56):
But also, you know, our worldtends to get pretty cynical
about social media.
But in the publishing world,you know, I can point to
examples of people who arefinding community online.
They're finding friends,they're finding readers, they're
(30:16):
they're joining together incauses and creating a sense of
solidarity.
That all is I mean the whole,all of that is there.
And yes, there's also a lot oftrolls, there's also naysayers,
and I think it's a question offinding your positive,
(30:38):
encouraging vibe on socials andpeople will follow along.
You know, what works often onsocial media are like negative
hot takes.
People love the.
You know I gobble those up toosometimes and repost them, get
outraged, but no one.
You know our nervous systemscan't handle that for only so
long.
And then what also works isinspiring, inspirational quotes
(31:02):
or maybe informative,encouraging.
You know, not toxic positivity,not, you know you're not
superficial stuff, but thingsthat are, that are, um, from
your experience in particular,and a nice blend of like selfies
and inspirational quotes orencouraging quotes or
(31:22):
informative quotes um, I thinkare are really, really cool.
And so I think it's like a,it's like a mental block working
with social media, and not onlyis there like a sense of
community, but as an author, youhave an opportunity to have
direct contact with your readers.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
That's something that people people like overlook
that way too easily when theyget cynical about social media.
You know you have anopportunity today to you know.
Have them DM you to have themrespond to your email list.
Let me know what you'rethinking.
I love running launch teams forauthors or helping out with
launch teams.
It's been a very effective toolon the level that I'm working
on and I'm seeing otherpublishers doing it too
(32:05):
conventional houses all the timebut it's like that's hard work
marketing a book through thelaunch phase and that launch
team can be a lot of emails, alot of communication.
But oh, by the way, you getthese beautiful letters of
people who are reading your bookand you're just so floored and
moved and you're firstexperiencing this as an author
(32:25):
as you're about to launch a bookand it and it's like this is
not just stuff that I'm gettingimpersonally through my
publisher or or whatever I'm.
I have this person's emailaddress now and they have mine
and it can be extremelygratifying.
I sometimes say to authors whatwould you rather do?
You know, sell 10,000 books toa bunch of strangers or a
(32:47):
thousand books to people thatyou really get to know?
And, yeah, maybe there's moremoney in the 10,000 books, but
there's more meaning in thethousand.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
Yeah, you know, that's really true.
I have an ARC team.
It's usually somewhere around ahundred readers and I send them
my book about the month beforeit publishes and I have a group
of them.
It's anywhere from I don't know10 to 20 of them that are.
I call them my typo huntersBecause it doesn't matter how
(33:21):
many times that book has beenthrough my editor, me.
You know all the pro-writing thetypos get through yeah they do
and they find them, and but Ithink they're friends.
Now, you know, in my one seriesit's got six books in it and
(33:41):
they'll tell me like, oh, don'tyou remember in book two the
character did blah, blah, blah,blah and that doesn't fit with
this.
And I'm like, oh my gosh, youwere so right.
Like they know those booksbetter than I do and they feel
like friends those people.
And you know, it's just sogreat to wake up on the morning
(34:02):
that the book is published andthere's already, you know, 30 to
50 reviews on Amazon.
It's like, wow, you know.
So I think, and that is notsomething people could have done
in the past and it's alsosomething that I'm just saying
this of your traditionallypublished authors out there
Listen up, because I have a footin both worlds and I've known a
lot of traditionally publishedauthors that just don't do that.
(34:25):
And if you talk your publisherinto letting you let go of 50,
60 digital copies of your book,Right, right.
It's going to bless both of you.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
Which kind of leads me into asking you a little bit
about Lake Drive.
Since you are a hybridpublisher, I'm assuming you do a
little bit more of that kind ofthing with your writers.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
Yep, yep.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Coaching them through platform building and these
things we're talking about.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
I mean so much of the launch phase of marketing book
is reliant on the authorplatform.
So as soon as I sign an author,I do something I'm not sure
very many publishers do in anymeaningful way.
I have I scheduled two onlineplatform meetings and I critique
their platform.
You know I have a littleplatform meetings and I critique
(35:12):
their platform.
You know I have a little rubricthat I go through and I look at
all the ways that they show uponline and turn over every stone
and I just well, you know I'lltalk about.
You know I'll talk about like,have you used Amazon Author
Central?
Are you?
Is your profile on your picturethere on Goodreads?
You know what are you doing withyour emails?
You know why aren't youemailing?
Don't send such long emails.
(35:32):
Send shorter ones.
People don't want to read yourlong posts on Substack
necessarily, and you're notgoing to be some of those people
who are making millions ofdollars on Substack right away.
So start small.
I have a whole host of things Ilook at and I also create an
online metrics spreadsheet forevery author so you can sort of
(35:54):
track where you're going.
You know it's not meant to beperformative, it's not meant to
be comparing you to otherauthors.
It's more like going to adoctor and having your blood
pressure taken and your weighttaken.
How are things looking?
What's working here?
What's not working so well?
How can you track your progressand be excited about it too?
(36:15):
Oh that's brilliant.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
Do you offer that as a service for anyone you know?
Speaker 3 (36:21):
just create a simple spreadsheet and just start.
Just check your numbers at thebeginning of every month.
It can be fun to do that Emaillist numbers, watch them grow
and then that actually becomespart of the relationship with my
Lake Drive Books authors.
It sets the tone for how wepartner together and, you know,
(36:43):
it keeps them focused onplatform.
I really encourage authorsdon't listen to me Look and see
what some of the other authorsare doing Follow other authors,
Network with those authorsbecause you guys can share
audiences.
I'm sure that's not news tomost of your audience, but just
make this a constant part ofwhat you do as part of your
(37:04):
business as an author.
And I will keep after myauthors.
I had an author his book cameout in January, Trey Ferguson
and he's been really good withposting his newsletters lately.
But I noticed at the verybottom of his newsletter it just
kind of ends there's no littlebio from him, there's no mention
to his book or with a link.
And I just said, hey, great jobon your posts lately newsletter
(37:27):
posts.
I noticed you could maybe put alittle bio at the end.
And he said, hey, great job onyour post lately newsletter post
.
I noticed you could maybe put alittle bio at the end.
And he said he emailed me backtwo hours later.
Done, it'll be in.
All my other ones upcoming.
And I think little things likethat all matter.
They count, they add up.
And the fun thing about thattoo is you know, the most ideal
relationship with a publisher orpublishing professional that
(37:48):
you're working with is that themagic happens in the
relationship, not so much inwhat one person does for the
other.
It's not transactional, it'smore about relationship.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
Do you think that's true?
I mean, you obviously have abroad experience.
Do you think that's also truefor some of the bigger
publishing houses?
Because one of the critiquesthat we sometimes hear is that,
like when people go to the bighouses, they lose all control,
they lose all relationship.
It's not collaborative, it'sacquisitional right Versus a
(38:19):
smaller press or a hybrid presscan be more collaborative.
Does that seem accurate fromyour experience?
Does that seem accurate fromyour experience?
Speaker 3 (38:28):
I would say only a little bit, the difference
between a smaller publisher likean established conventional
publisher, where you know thename but maybe they're not one
of the big five, and there's avery big difference between
those two.
I would say that for mostconventional publishers who've
(38:49):
been around for a while, whetherthey're a smaller business or a
big one, there's very, there'sactually not a ton of difference
.
The big publishers do bringsome things to bear, but they
can be inconsistent from frompublishing team to publishing
team.
I mean, I just I just met witha very one of the very largest
(39:09):
publishers, one of my authors,and I'm pretty impressed with
what they're doing from amarketing point of view.
But in terms of getting rollingup their sleeves and getting
like in the author space and youknow, like that doctor, that
you want to really listen to youare they really doing that?
I don't think so, but neitherare some of the smaller ones.
(39:29):
They have sort of like theirtemplated steps that they're
going to do and there's not alot of, you know, there's not a
lot of deviation from that.
I mean they customize.
That's not to say that theydon't Wouldn't be fair, but but
(39:49):
to really like follow through,like some authors too, they need
a little more handholding thanothers, or they need a little
bit more accountability thanothers, and so so many of the
publishers they're not.
In my view, as a formerexecutive at a major house,
they're not empowering theirmarketing people to have enough
people, hours, brain space,expertise.
They have the expertise, butthey're not always able, they're
not always given the license orthe time to do it and really
(40:12):
lean in with their authors,which is where I think the magic
happens.
Now, at a smaller indie press,yeah, maybe you can get that.
I still think it's tough, andit's probably one of the biggest
opportunities in publishing isfor publishers to organize
around helping authors withtheir platforms.
No doubt about it in my mind,and here's why I say that too,
(40:36):
publishers used to usebookstores as their marketing
tool.
Bookstores were a marketingmechanism for them.
It was an engine ofdiscoverability.
Now it's the author platformsthat are the engine of
discoverability, and yet they'repaying those authors the same
royalties that they paid them 25, 30, 50 years ago, and yet they
(40:56):
rely on the authors to bringthose 50,000 Instagram.
I mean, that's a property.
You're bringing marketingproperty to the table and you're
not getting rewarded for it,except for getting a book deal.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
You know what I'm just going to say.
Preach it.
Yes, it is so true, you know itis so true.
(41:33):
You know it is so true.
And I think that it's justgoing to be interesting to see
like there's been so manychanges, like we talked about in
, because now that authors haveso much more ability to take
their destiny in their own hands, you know, giving away that
much just so that you can sayyou have a contract is becoming
(41:55):
less and less attractive for alot of people.
So I think that's reallyinteresting.
So tell us one more quick thing,because we're coming down to
the wire.
But I really want to hear sohow did you?
It sounds like the way you gotthe idea for Lake Drive
Publishing was because you kindof looked at what was happening
(42:16):
and the things you didn't likeand you kind of came up with a
plan of things that you thoughtwould be better.
But was there one instigatingthing that drove you to that?
Or starting your own publishingcompany?
What's your experience beendoing it?
Just give us a little bit ofbackground on that.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
You know, I think part of it is just having worked
in a business for 30 years in acorporate environment and
wanting to do my own thing.
I mean, you know, when you workfor a publishing company that's
in the business of payingsix-figure advances, that tends
to sort of level the content andthe variety and the types of
(42:59):
authors that you get to workwith.
And I didn't quite know this atfirst until I really started
getting the Lake Drive Booksbusiness going.
How much more on the ground andeven personally, spiritually
rooted, I was in working moredirectly with authors who were
saying different things thatsome of these bigger publishers,
(43:19):
either because of platform orbecause of content, it doesn't
fit their categories or itdoesn't fit their.
You know their culturalrequirements.
You know I'm able to work withauthors who are saying some
really cool things, really reallife stuff, gritty stories, and
you know that's just been, Ithink that's been part of my
(43:46):
motivation, but I think alsojust yeah, just seeing how
publishing has evolved.
You know that part aboutmarketing and platform.
I mean I remember one of mymarketing director at my
previous employer, you know, sawa need with one of his author
one of our authors and usedpublishing budget, marketing
budget, money to buy this authorpodcast equipment.
(44:07):
Now, if our bosses knew that'swhat we were doing, they
probably would have said, no,you can't do that, that's not
appropriate.
But that's what the need wasfor this particular author and
you know what, maybe this authordidn't blossom with a wonderful
podcast that had lots offollowers, but in a way, that
sort of for this particularauthor and you know what, maybe
this author didn't blossom witha wonderful podcast that had
lots of followers, but in a waythat sort of you know, provides
encouragement.
(44:28):
It says to that author webelieve in you and it maybe gets
that creative conversationgoing.
And I think that's what'smissing in publishing and where
there's a big opportunity inpublishing right now.
And maybe that's what motivatedme.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
I love that.
You also mentioned before westarted recording that you have
a new and maybe borderlinecontroversial book coming out in
the next couple of weeks.
Book coming out in the nextcouple of weeks.
I know our listeners are moreinterested in the business of
publishing, but why don't youtell us about that book real
quick too?
Speaker 3 (45:07):
Yeah, it's a wonderfully rich memoir by
Krista Brown, who is a clergyabuse survivor and advocate.
She's sort of a matriarch ofthat world, particularly on the
Protestant side.
You've heard of clergy abuse onthe Catholic side.
Well, it's there.
Just it's also there on theProtestant side, in her case,
(45:27):
the Southern Baptist Convention.
But it's a memoir that talksabout how there's patriarchy in
our culture.
There is religious systems thatare more intertwined with power
than we realize Often malepower.
(45:49):
In the Southern Baptist worldwomen aren't allowed to be
spiritual leaders, they're notallowed to preach, except for
Rick Warren's church.
They changed and there was evena kerfuffle around that.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
We got kicked out of the Southern, which I'm very
proud of.
Speaker 3 (46:05):
To Rick's credit and your church's credit.
But her book sort of talksabout the way the family
dysfunction was connectedculturally to a church world
that harbors or even sort ofdevelops or creates a safe space
(46:26):
for men to abuse teenage girls,like Krista was when she was
young.
Krista's now a retiredappellate attorney.
She's had a very successfulcareer as an attorney.
But you should see her go intotown on Twitter.
I mean she spends.
She spends like I don't know howmuch of her time as just a
grandma doing grandma things,and then the rest of the time
(46:47):
she's on her computer holdingthe world accountable for
whether they're publishing alist of abusers, creating
oversight over the churches inthe Southern Baptist world.
It's all about being anindependent church.
They try to foster localautonomy, but that also means
there's no institutionaloversight and it allows for
(47:10):
abuses to happen.
It just makes that possible.
But the real part about herstory is how she transformed and
got out and became her ownperson, bit by bit by bit.
The tagline for the book isthere's power in truth telling,
and truth telling has a way ofsnowballing and that's what this
(47:33):
whole book is about.
As you read along.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
Well, I love that.
Amazing the independent spirit.
You know that's just.
It's what kind of a metaphorfor what we were talking about,
about the publishing world too.
You know that the longersomething's been around, the
more entrenched it gets, thehigher the power grid.
You know that, as we alwaysused to say with our kids
(47:58):
growing up, you know, powercorrupts and absolute power
corrupts absolutely.
And things got to shuffle andsort themselves out.
So that's interesting, butanyway, why don't you tell our
listeners where they can findout more about you and about
Hyponymous and about Lake DriveBooks?
Speaker 3 (48:19):
Sure sure, yeah.
Well, lake Drive Books islakedrivebookscom.
We're on social media is atLake Drive Books.
Hyponymous isH-Y-P-O-N-Y-M-O-U-S.
Speaker 2 (48:34):
We don't like our show notes.
Speaker 3 (48:36):
I'm usually pretty good about that, it's a hyponym.
You know you have to come upwith these names where no one's
taken them online and you cancome up with a URL for your
website.
So look up hyponym.
Hyponym, it is a subset of ahigher class of thing, like a
daisy is a hyponym for flower,oh, or spoon is a hyponym for
(48:58):
cutlery, and so hyponymous isall about creating specificity
in your writing, in your authorbrand, not trying to be like
everybody else.
I think that's the world we'rein right now.
I think that's where we succeedis when we can create
specificity out of who we are.
So that's at hyponymouscom, andI'm at davidrmorrisme for my
(49:21):
little stuff, but I'm not asgood with that website.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
You only do so many things.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
I feel like we all have a little very neglected
part of the online world, likemy Instagram page, Very
neglected.
Well, that's just great and Ilove this conversation and
everything we talked about andit's just interesting.
We've had some conversationswith people in the very much in
(49:50):
the independently, in theindependent author space that
are really, you know, like whatused to be 20 books to 50K,
which is going to be AuthorNation, and the messaging is
coming.
It's the same, the messaging.
We just had a big conversationwith Kevin Tomlinson and
everybody is saying the samething from all different
(50:12):
directions and it's sointeresting to hear the same
message from you, David.
It's that authenticity, thatbecoming yourself, being clear
about your brand and not beingshy about it.
So to listeners, don't forgetand I keep thinking that I'm
going to stop mentioning this,but every conversation we have,
(50:33):
it just leads me to it Megan andI have a free seven-day course
on the website and it is calledSeven Days to Clarity Uncover
your Author Purpose, and you cangrab that on the homepage or
pretty much anywhere.
It's also on authorwheelcomslash stuff, which is our very
(50:55):
cleverly named page with freestuff on it named page with free
stuff on it.
And also, if you did enjoy thispodcast and if you would like
to hear your book or yourproduct or service for writers
mentioned on air, we wouldsurely appreciate it if you
would consider sponsoring us.
You can do that for as littleas $3 a month, and if you do, we
(51:16):
will tell the world about you,and your support helps us pay
for editing, hosting andeverything that goes into
bringing this podcast to you.
So thanks again for listeningand thank you again, David.
Thank you.
And till next time, keep yourstories rolling.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.