A Message for Pastors & Clergy: Supporting Betrayed Spouses Well with Nick Stumbo

On this episode of BRT, we have a special guest, Pastor Nick Stumbo. Nick is the Executive Director of Pure Desire Ministries and has an extensive background in pastoral ministry. He began his ministry career at East Hills Alliance Church in Kelso, Washington, where he served as lead pastor for over a decade. Confronted with his own pornography addiction, Nick and his wife, Michelle, found hope and healing through Pure Desire’s counseling and group ministries. His public disclosure led to a revival of forgiveness and healing within his church, and he continues to lead the way in helping churches become places of healing.

Episode Description: In this episode, Kris, Jenn, and Nick share a powerful message for pastors and clergy on effectively supporting women going through betrayal trauma. Using the analogy of how a paramedic would treat a severe wound, they provide six key steps for clergy and support personnel to follow:

Key Highlights:

1. Assess the Severity of the Wound - Listen to Her: Nick emphasizes the importance of actively listening to the betrayed spouse, believing her reality, and displaying genuine sympathy. Show kindness and care to provide solace during her crisis.
2. Stop the Bleeding - Focus on the immediate need, not the marriage. Avoid cause-and-effect thinking and allow her to express her emotions and needs at her own pace. Asking "permission questions" will help the clergy better understand her urgent concerns and priorities.
3. Bandage the Wound & Stabilize the Patient - Educate Her About the Healing Process. Inform her there is a healing process, and she will not be alone. Don’t Rush Forgiveness: Understand forgiveness and avoid minimizing the situation. Guide Her in the Present: Help her focus on the "now" and provide comfort and hope. Teach the Keys to Rebuilding Trust: Discuss sincerity, ability, and durability as crucial elements of rebuilding trust.
4. Treat for Shock - Normalize the Experience: Minimize isolation, emotional flooding, and embarrassment by providing community and helping her deal with emotions. Provide Community: Connect her with others who understand her situation and can offer support.
5. Support the Injury - Offer Support: Provide resources, encourage her to grieve, help her establish a circle of trust, and teach the importance of healthy boundaries.
6. If the Wound is Too Severe, Call 911 - Ask for Help: Refer her to trained professionals like CSATs, PSAPs, CCPSs, and C-SASIs for specialized support. "When in doubt, refer out!"

Connect with Us:

• Visit our website: Watermark Coach
• Follow us on Instagram: @WatermarkCoaching
• Pure Desire Ministries: https://puredesire.org

Thank you for listening! Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review our podcast to stay updated on future episodes. 🌟

• This episode's content was written and produced by Kris Rocha
• Edited by: Dan Howie

This podcast is produced with the support of: www.purelifealliance.com

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
This wasn't said directly to me.

(00:14):
This was on a podcast and I can't tell you how many people I've shared this with.
This pastor said, speaking of validating and believing her, he said, it's fair to
expect your spouse has eyes only for you.
It doesn't matter how sexualized our culture has become.
It is fair.
I believe a God given desire in a marriage relationship to say, I want to be the only

(00:38):
one you look at or see in that way.
And there's the tears.
So don't buy into the cultural garbage that says that's just what guys do or boys will
be boys sowing their wild oats.
It is fair for you betrayed spouse to expect that you will be honored by your husband's
thoughts and actions.

(01:09):
Like stop my ears are bleeding.
What nobody knows Chris and particularly you is that I just hit record.
You did not.
I did hit record, but it was after you were singing.
So today Chris and I are actually talking about 1980s.
That's rude.
You totally.
I did not record it.
That's illegal.
You can't record me without my express written permission or knowledge.

(01:33):
I forged it.
I just, so I didn't record you singing, but today we Chris and I are talking about 1980s
Christian music and you know, many of our friend group actually did not grow up with
Christian music in the eighties because not everyone grows up in a Christian home.
However, Chris and I have discovered we have grown up in Christian homes and we know all
the same.
Oh, I shouldn't say hokey.

(01:54):
They probably weren't hokey.
I know they're great.
Oh no, they're not.
They're terrible.
They're just, oh, come on.
Shine.
Jesus shine.
I love you Lord.
Okay.
That's it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That my voice classic.
It's that that was classic and actually come back every now and then great is the Lord.
There is Lord, but I'm thinking of things like I am a C I am a C H I am a C H R I S

(02:19):
C I A N.
Yeah.
All this.
Yeah.
I think there are some things that we, um, that we occasionally Lord, I lift your name
on high.
Oh, that's terrible.
The hand movements are pretty solid.
I exalt thee.
Wow.
Okay.
Now that one.
Okay.
Let's just do a pause there.
I exalt thee is, is a generational song.

(02:44):
However, it expands all the generations.
That is a fantastic song.
Today's guest on today's podcast is someone he's, he's actually my former boss and there
were times in the office that he and I would connect on some of these older songs because
not everybody knows them.
And I was always pretty impressed that almost always, almost always he knew the song and

(03:10):
turns out that he's actually a pretty decent singer himself and his name is Nick Stumbo.
And we invited Nick to be on the podcast today because not only is he the executive director
at pure desire, he is also a former pastor.
He has a pastor's heart.
I mean, once a pastor, always a pastor, right?

(03:31):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think at one point he even, I don't know if we were recording at this point, but
he makes a statement that we're all pastors and I, that that's a little bit of a glimpse
into his heart.
He is a incredibly humble and gracious man who came on the podcast today to talk about
a topic that you and I had discussed actually that we spoke at a lunch and learn previously

(03:57):
last year.
And the subject's pretty, pretty tough because we're addressing pastors and where they've
missed the mark or maybe, maybe not just pastors, but church leadership and where they've missed
the mark in regard to walking alongside a betrayed spouse.

(04:17):
And then we talk about how we can all do it better.
So that Brené Brown quote that you bring up in the recording is, no, is it Brené Brown?
I think it's Maya Angelou.
Do the best you can with what you have and when you know better, do better.
So we give some examples of women who have written into us or gals that we know who had

(04:40):
shared their experience where it was hurtful, where a pastor was trying but was ill-equipped
or maybe misinformed.
And they actually ended up doing some damage, adding insult to injury in the situation.
So we based this talk that we gave off of a first responder.
So how would a first responder treat someone with a brand new traumatic wound, boots on

(05:05):
the street, if they were real life fire service or paramedic, if they showed up on the scene
of an accident, someone had been run over by a car and they've got a traumatic wound,
broken limbs, what would they do?
And then we correlated what a first responder would do to treat that severe wound with what
we can do as first responders when it comes to supporting a betrayed spouse well.

(05:30):
So now in the beginning of this conversation, we want all of you to know that we want to
acknowledge a few things that Jen and I are betrayal recovery coaches and we work with
women who want help.
They've sought us out because they want to move forward and we acknowledge that pastors
oftentimes are dealing with a mixed bag.

(05:51):
They are probably dealing with people who don't want help or they're overwhelmed with
emotions and so yeah, that's tough.
And pastors do have a tough job.
They're wearing a lot of hats and the truth is pastors don't have to wear all the hats.
They're not in this alone either, just as we are not as betrayed spouses and so we want

(06:13):
to help support pastors as they help others by providing resources and building a bridge
and being the conduit.
We don't have to have all the answers.
We just need to know who does and how to get the people that are hurting to those resources.
Yeah.
We also want to acknowledge that a lot of the testimonies that you're going to hear
today might actually be very difficult to hear.

(06:37):
So we want to acknowledge that not every one of these testimonies will necessarily apply
to you as the listener.
However, after working in this field, really for the last 18 years, these are stories that
we have really heard over and over.
These stories have come from well-meaning pastors, church leadership, friends, family,

(06:59):
colleagues, and mentors.
And we brought Nick on today as an expert in the field and also as a recovering addict.
So we couldn't think of anyone better than to speak on this subject than Nick Stumbo.
Yeah.
With that quote, do the best you can with what you have.

(07:21):
And when you know better, do better, he is a great example of that.
He is doing it so well now, both in his recovery journey and process, but also as a pastor
and a mentor, leading other pastors, mentors, and friends and family to support both the
addict and the betrayed spouse well.
Yeah.

(07:41):
He's one of the most humble guys I've ever known.
And what you see with Nick is what you get.
So enjoy today's podcast.
If you are listening and are really looking for some content to give someone who does
not know how to respond, this would be an excellent podcast to give to them and have
them listen to.
Yeah.

(08:01):
Okay.
Hello, friends.
Welcome to the Betrayal Recovery Transformation Podcast.
This is your place to reclaim your life after betrayal.
I'm your host, Chris Rocha, and I'm here with my co-host, Jen Howey.
Hey, Jen.
Hello.
I almost said good morning, everyone, and then realized, hey, that's not really a thing
here.
Well, it could be for some of you that might be listening in the morning, but here we are.

(08:23):
It's morning over here in Bend, Oregon.
And wherever you're listening, we are just so glad that you are here.
We're excited for how expansive this podcast has become, and we just want you to know that
wherever you are, wherever you are physically, we're here with you spiritually, emotionally,

(08:44):
and in prayer in your journey.
On today's podcast, I have to say, I always say I'm really excited about the podcast,
maybe just because I'm excited about the podcast that we do, but today, today, we have a third-generation
pastor, Nick Stumbo, and he started his ministry career at East Hill Lions Church in Kelso,

(09:06):
Washington, and he served there as our lead pastor for more than a decade.
And Nick observed the fallout of sexual brokenness and the devastation in the lives of men and
women in the church, and he recognized, like never before, the need for a culture of grace
in the church.
Confronted with his own pornography addiction, Nick and his wife Michelle found hope and

(09:27):
healing through the counseling and the group ministries of pure desire.
It radically changed his life, and his public disclosure to his church body led to a revival
of forgiveness and healing.
Nick has authored two books, Setting Us Free and Safe, and Nick is now the executive director
of Pure Desire Ministries and my favorite former boss.

(09:51):
Clearly, his most extinguished title.
We have a trophy for you, Nick, after the show.
We'll get that to you.
Small plaque and a trophy for that.
Jen's former boss.
Is that called the Dealing with Jen trophy?
No, those were good days.
We had a good time together, Jen.

(10:12):
One could say that for sure.
But yes, those were good days and really are in many ways.
Really all three of us continue to move toward the calling that God has put on each of our
lives to bring hope and healing to women.
So it's been an honor to really to work with you, Nick, and to continue that work that

(10:34):
God is doing here today.
So with that, Chris, talk to us.
Yeah.
So today we invited Nick in for a very important conversation.
So grateful, Nick, that you were able to join us for this.
And we're going to be talking about how pastors and clergy can come alongside a betrayed spouse
well.
Jen and I gave a presentation last year to a group of pastors and as I was preparing

(10:59):
for it, the Holy Spirit said, hey, why don't you use first responders as a metaphor for
this?
I was in the fire service for 12 years.
So I worked with a lot of paramedics and EMTs and got to see what their boots on the street
look like day in and day out.
And so we're going to start off with a few statistics from The Healing Church, a book

(11:22):
that Sam Black wrote.
He's with Covenant Eyes.
And Jen, if you would share those statistics with us, that'd be great.
And then we'll get started on how first responders, how we can be first responders and come alongside
someone who suffered a traumatic wound such as betrayal trauma well.
Thanks, Chris.
All right.
So here we go.
Two-thirds of men who regularly attend church struggle with porn.

(11:48):
One-third of women also who regularly attend church struggle with pornography.
Sixty-nine percent of pastors say that porn has adversely affected their church, but only
7% of churches offer any kind of support and resources for that.
So this is where those who are listening, all of us really, have the opportunity to

(12:12):
affect these statistics positively.
And that's what we're here to talk about today.
How do we come alongside people in this process in ways that are effective and healing for
everyone who is either struggling with pornography or have been a part of the effects of someone
else's addiction with pornography?

(12:34):
Thanks, Jen.
All right.
So let's get into this.
So when a paramedic shows up on a scene of a critical accident and someone has sustained
a traumatic wound, just picture broken bones, bleeding.
It's bad.
It's pretty devastating.
The first thing a paramedic is going to do is assess the severity of the wound.

(12:56):
So with this metaphor, with a betrayal trauma, how do we do that as first responders if a
woman's reached out to us and she's found out there's been unwanted sexual behavior
in her marriage?
The way that we can assess the severity of the wound is by listening to her.
So we asked several women to write us with some of their experiences, and we selected

(13:18):
some quotes.
So we've got a quote here from Julie B. and her experience was, it says, how can the
church learn to help marriages in recovery?
I appreciate the encouragement and prayer, but they seem so ill-equipped in the area
of infidelity.
The other day in conversation with my pastor, he tried to dance around the words, quote,

(13:40):
affair and infidelity.
When I said we call it infidelity because that's what it was, he said I was being unforgiving
and needed to stop hurting my husband by using those words.
He meant well.
I know he did.
Pastors are often the first responders in these situations, yet as well-meaning as they
are, many of them have no clue how to help a woman experiencing betrayal trauma.

(14:03):
So thank you for sending that into us, Julie.
And so with that, I'm going to ask Nick to jump in.
What are your thoughts, Nick, on how can we listen well?
I think one of the key parts of that phrase is it's assessing her wound and the impact
on her because I think we're really quick to jump to, well, what was the behavior or

(14:24):
how should we treat this in the marriage in general without really listening and understanding
the impact that that has had on the betrayed spouse?
And I think throughout the podcast, we're going to use her or she for the betrayed spouse
and he or him for the struggler or the addict.
And I just want to say up front, like, it's not always the male addict that the women

(14:44):
struggle to.
And there are situations where a woman has had an affair or acted out and the man is
feeling the betrayal.
But I think for the nature of our podcast, if we use he and her, it's because that is
more common or more frequently what pastors are addressing.
And so I would just share briefly a little bit of my story.
I was really attempting to be a man of integrity early in my marriage, even while I was stuck

(15:07):
in a binge purge struggle with pornography.
And in that integrity, I would go to my wife, I would confess that it had happened again,
tell her how sorry I was.
And one of the phrases I would use that made sense to me was, hey, this isn't about you.
This is a problem that I've had long before I met you.
I'm working really hard to stop and it keeps happening.

(15:27):
I'm so sorry, but it's nothing to do with you.
And so you shouldn't feel that hurt.
Right.
And I think that's going to help her understand if she just saw it the way I saw it, that
she wouldn't feel that hurt because she know it wasn't about hurting her.
And for 10 years, that was the kind of language I used with my wife.
And really our transformation couple came as a result of partly, I think, God revealing

(15:52):
to me that I had the equation backwards, that I was trying to tell my wife how she should
feel versus listening to her about how it was impacting her.
Because she was also using phrases like, you know, an affair.
And she understood it's not the same as a physical affair, but she would say, it feels
to me like you're having an affair.

(16:13):
This feels like you're cheating on me.
And it wasn't until I started to listen to her and take her experience honestly and truthfully
for what it was that I was willing to enter into the kind of change that we needed.
And I remember at that time, you know, writing down in a journal, like if there was any other
area of my life where my wife told me, when you do this, I feel like you're cheating on

(16:35):
me, that I wouldn't have moved heaven and earth to try to change that behavior.
You know, she said when you overeat, it feels like you're cheating on me.
Or when you, you know, go to the store and I don't know where you've left.
Like any other behavior, she said, it feels this way to me.
I'd be like, I never want you to feel that way.
I will make changes.
And yet there was this area of my life where I was so steeped in rationalizing or minimizing

(16:59):
the behavior that I wasn't willing to listen to how hurtful it was to her.
And I think that was a big part of it too, that I didn't want to have to accept how much
I was hurting my wife.
And if I valued or invalidated her experience, it meant I was really doing this to her.
But honestly, that's what I needed to receive in order to enter into change.

(17:21):
And I share that story for pastors because I think we may come from a perspective, often
male pastors who understand men well and kind of understand fantasy and lust.
And they may be a little bought into some of that idea of, well, if you just understood,
it's not about you, you shouldn't be that mad.
But I would say we can, I would hope we could all recognize it's not our job to tell someone

(17:46):
else how they should feel.
And when we do that, that doesn't usually go very well, does it?
Like if I call someone a whole bunch of names and then they say, man, Nick, when you said
those names of me, that was really hurtful.
It wouldn't be right for me to respond and say, oh, you shouldn't be hurt.
You know, I'm going to tell you how to feel.
You shouldn't be hurt because I don't want you to be hurt.
It's like, well, no, that my job in that situation would be to receive, oh, my words hurt you

(18:11):
and were impactful in a very negative way.
I need to own that.
I need to apologize for it.
And I need to work to amend my ways so that I don't leave you feeling that way.
And that's, I think the case with a betrayed or hurting spouse is we need to assess her
wound.
What is it doing to her?
And you guys have probably discussed it on your podcast, but not every marriage is the

(18:31):
same and not every woman will react the same.
And the level of trauma, the perceived sense of betrayal, the level of broken trust may
be very different person to person, marriage to marriage.
And I've definitely worked with couples where the man's level of acting out, if we could
say was maybe not that severe, but because of issues maybe from her family of origin

(18:55):
or how it connected to other trauma, the spouse's betrayal or sense of trauma was very, very
deep and it can almost feel like, man, that's a little out of sync.
Well, that's their reality.
And then vice versa.
I've worked with couples where his level of acting out is maybe quite severe and her ability
to be resilient to it, respond well, kind of deal with the trauma is maybe much, much

(19:16):
higher because of other experiences in her life on a positive sense.
And so she may not have as much trauma because she's more capable in that moment to receive
it.
And so we can't just determine the level of trauma based off of the level of behavior.
And I think that's what a pastor might be struggling with is in their mind of like,

(19:37):
well, man, he was quote unquote only lusting after other women a time or two, or he only
veered off on Facebook into images a couple of times, but he wasn't sleeping around.
So as pastors, they've maybe dealt with those worst case scenarios where it's like, man,
I've dealt with way, way worse.
You guys can overcome this.
Well, again, it's not about the level of behavior.

(20:01):
It's assessing the level of how traumatic it is for her.
And so that's where it all comes back to, we've got to be willing to listen.
We've got to be willing to assess for her.
How is this feeling?
Because the truth is, however she's feeling that is her reality.
And the only place we can help her is in her reality.
Absolutely.
That reminds me, Jen, of the picture that you love to share when you lead groups, the

(20:25):
how deep is the mud picture?
And we can put that in the show notes, but it shows a Labrador retriever next to a little
Chihuahua dog who have both been romping around in the mud.
And the mud is up to the Chihuahua's neck, but it's only up to the Labrador retrievers
knees.
So how deep is the mud?
It does depend on the perspective and that has a lot to do with family of origin, background

(20:50):
and other traumas that we've experienced individually throughout our lives.
Yeah, this is also reminding me of the statement, if it's hysterical, it's historical.
So something that has been a fantastic tool is, well, if I'm in the right head space,
I apply this well.
But if someone's response is really over the top, it's up to me to determine or at least

(21:17):
consider that there's some history here and to step back and not be so quick to step into
a defensive statement.
Well, not that we should ever really be quick to step into a defensive statement, but if
it's hysterical, if the reaction's over the top, if we are going to be compassionate,

(21:37):
if we are going to be empathetic, we have an opportunity in that moment to consider
that there's some history here that they may not even be aware of and that we most certainly
are not aware of and to exhibit compassion and empathy in that moment.
Nick, everything that you said there actually hits some of the points that Chris and I had

(21:58):
talked about, displaying sympathy, having levels of listening.
And Chris, you talk about that frequently, and I love that.
And then believing her reality.
Yes.
Trauma is what happens inside of us as a result of what happens outside of us.
And then, of course, as pastors and as lay people and as just people of God in general,

(22:26):
asking the Holy Spirit to guide us in that moment is such an important piece of that.
And I think being willing to ask questions like, can you help me understand what you're
experiencing?
Tell me about what you're feeling.
Tell me about your day.
What's happening?
And I think when women start to describe like, I can't eat, I can't sleep, I can't think
straight.

(22:47):
This is constantly on my mind.
I'm obsessed with worry, fear, doubt, wondering what he's doing.
As they describe that reality, I hope we're able to listen to, wow, this is very serious
for them.
I think the behavior on the other side merits that or not is in that moment inconsequential.
Because in that moment, if anyone came to you and said, hey, I'm going through something

(23:08):
where I can't eat, I'm not sleeping well, I can't think straight, I'm forgetful, I'm
yelling at my kids.
I don't care what the topic is.
As a pastor, wouldn't our heart go out and say, man, how can we help you?
How can we support you?
This sounds horrible.
And whatever the event itself is, in that moment is inconsequential to the care that

(23:28):
that woman needs.
There's power in the words too of I believe you and I'm so sorry.
Absolutely.
And then taking it from there.
Okay.
All right, Jen.
All right.
So our second statement comes from Jessica P. It says, after D-Day, my husband and I
sat down with a trusted pastor and his wife, although they did their best to be supportive,

(23:53):
since they never had had the experience of betrayal, their advice wasn't very helpful.
We went to two different Christian counselors, both of whom told me, the betrayed spouse,
that the answer was to discover what was missing in the marriage that caused my husband to
cheat.
I quickly realized their advice was missing, the Mark 2.

(24:17):
I refused to take any responsibility for my husband's affairs.
Finally, we found a counselor who was specifically trained in sexual addiction and betrayal trauma
and had a solid plan for healing and recovery.
Yeah.
Ouch is right.
Ouch.
Have you heard of these kinds of stories before, Nick?
A statement like Jessica's?
Yeah.

(24:38):
Unfortunately, far too many where there is, and I don't know where it comes from, but
I think in Christian circles, there is kind of an expectation that if the marriage bed,
let's put it that way, is frequently being visited, there's great sexual connection that
in that situation, a spouse won't struggle.

(24:59):
From everything we've learned about human behavior and the brain and how addiction works
and neurochemicals, and all of this really connects really well with scripture if we
want to talk about that, because I know for a pastor, you can be like, well, wait a minute,
let's talk about the Bible.
If we just look at the way that our brain was designed by God to work, we know that
that's simply not true, that sexual addiction and sexual struggles are not about sex itself.

(25:25):
It's about how it's become attached to meeting a need and medicating pain and dealing with
life.
And so I have many, many stories of men in group who will say, man, our sex life and
the marriage was fantastic.
And I was going to strip clubs and acting out with prostitutes, which is, I mean, it's
kind of mind blowing because it really disrupts that maybe paradigm we have that, well, if

(25:47):
you have a healthy sex life at home, you won't stray.
And even in our culture, there's a little bit of that.
And it's just not true.
And it is absolutely true that we are not responsible for other people's decisions and
their choices.
Now, does what I do impact you?
Does what I do impact my wife just like what she does impacts me?
Sure.
We all influence one another, but it is never appropriate for me to point to her or for

(26:12):
her to point to me and say, well, I only did this because you did that.
Well, I'm still responsible for my actions and my behaviors.
And as soon as we start to put on someone else that it's your job to fix me or your
job to fix someone else, what's kind of ironic to me in this whole situation is like, I can't
think of any other area where we would suggest that.

(26:32):
Like, if you were just a better, you know, if you just prepared better beverages at home,
he wouldn't be an alcoholic.
Yeah.
Wow.
That would sound so silly to us.
Like, well, that's not what alcoholism is about.
We tend to think that sex is just about a quantity.
As long as you're getting enough, you're good.
And it's not at all.
So yeah, unfortunately, it's far too common.
And I think it's rooted in some flawed paradigms that maybe were handed to us as pastors that

(26:56):
we've never really appropriately evaluated.
Yeah.
Oh, so that is such a great example.
And now my brain's trying to think of more.
But so the second step in treating this traumatic wound is to stop the bleeding.
And so what we're going to do is focus on the immediate need, not the marriage.
And that was such a great example, Nick.

(27:17):
Thank you for that.
So we're going to avoid cause and effect thinking, which is the if then that you just gave us
an example, Nick.
And then ask clarifying questions or permission questions.
How are you feeling right now?
And would you like to talk about it?
What are your immediate concerns and priorities moving forward?
Is there a particular way that I can support you during this difficult time?

(27:39):
And have you considered seeking professional help, such as a therapist or betrayal coach
to navigate through this difficult time?
So as pastors, as clergy, even as coaches, we're not trained to fix the things, but we
can certainly come alongside, support them and guide.
So yeah, your whole metaphor for this podcast is really appropriate because if someone went

(28:05):
to the emergency room because they'd broken their leg, you wouldn't work with them to
say, well, here's how we're going to get you running again.
Like I want you to run four miles a week.
And like if my leg is broken, the first priority is we've got to fix the leg.
We can't talk about my other activities until the leg is at a place that can handle regrowth

(28:28):
and building.
And that's the reality for a woman or a betrayed spouse is if they're in trauma, they are at
a heightened level of arousal.
And by arousal, we don't mean sexual arousal.
We just mean that all of their systems are firing because of that very deep, innate part
of us that we call our limbic system, the inner brain.
It is responsible for survival and it is asking all these questions like, am I safe?

(28:51):
What do I need to do to protect myself?
And if that system is firing, like helping someone build anything stable or long term
is just not possible in that moment.
And so we have to assess and help understand what does someone need to feel safe, to develop
some security and stability.
So there's all these S's, safe, secure.

(29:11):
And Dr. Kurt Thompson talks about them that we all have these needs to feel safe, seen,
soothed, secure.
And if we're outside of that window of tolerance, if we're outside of those areas where we don't
see feel seen or safe or soothe or secure, we're going to be making unhealthy, unwise
choices.
And so I would suggest to a pastor that if we're trying to help them rebuild the marriage

(29:32):
too soon or forgive him too soon, we actually may inadvertently do more damage because they're
making decisions outside of healthy, normal functioning of their brain.
But if instead we recognize, man, you're at this really heightened state of fear and awareness
of what do I need for safety?
We've got to do whatever we can to help calm the systems, to bring you to a place where

(29:54):
you feel like I'm safe, I'm secure.
My brain is calmed down.
I've got the support I need.
And now, and that may be much longer than we expect, right?
We might think that one good counseling session, we've got him there.
It's like, no, this may be several months of helping a person find that place.
And again, every situation is going to be different.

(30:15):
For some, they may not feel safe if he's still in the house because the behavior they're
perpetuating may be ongoing.
And if there's constantly more pain coming, well, no growth can happen.
And then in other marriages, she might say, well, I feel completely safe with him.
I can see he's doing some work and he's repentant, but I have these other concerns.

(30:35):
So it's again, in every situation, that's what I think we can do as a pastor is assess
what can I do to stop the bleeding, to set the leg, to get the pain at least subsided
enough that then at some point we can turn the corner and start to talk about regrowth
and rebuilding.
But that is a phase that needs to be really secondary to all of those immediate and more

(30:58):
pressing needs.
You know, you mentioned forgiving too quickly.
And it's always an interesting thing to hear that come from a pastor's mouth because so
frequently many of us are told to forgive quickly, but that it's biblical and that we
are engaging in sin when we don't forgive quickly.

(31:20):
Could you expound a little bit on what does that look like in this type of scenario in
applying this in a biblical sense?
Because I do believe that we are to forgive and to forgive quickly, but at the same time,
let's stay with the analogy here, we're in the ER.
The first thing we're doing is not forgiving the person that ran us over with the car.

(31:41):
We're dealing with the injury and then we're moving toward it.
But just from a biblical sense, Nick, could you explain a little bit about that, about
the concept of forgiving too quickly versus what many of us have been taught about the
biblical call to forgive quickly?
Yeah, I think we could do a whole podcast on forgiveness and premature forgiveness.

(32:03):
Okay, I'll send you an email.
It's important to think about what do we mean by forgiveness, that forgiveness does not
mean saying what they did was okay.
Forgiveness does not mean that I'm no longer hurting.
Forgiveness does not mean that we're now in a restored relationship and everything is
fine.
All of those are more about reconciliation and recovery versus forgiveness.

(32:27):
Forgiveness is more of removing myself from the seat of judgment against you and recognizing
like that that's God's job and not mine and I'm releasing you from my debt, that you don't
owe me for this.
But that doesn't mean that then everything goes back to the way it was.
I think sometimes in our press for forgiveness, a struggling or addicted spouse is trying

(32:50):
to get the spouse to say everything's okay and we're going to be fine.
They're maybe looking for those assurances, but they want it absent of any real work or
recovery.
If forgiveness is about me removing myself from the seat of judgment against you and
releasing that burden, then there are a couple of other things that come to mind for me that

(33:10):
I need to know what I'm forgiving.
In many of these situations, when you're dealing with a spouse in trauma, it's because
discovery has happened.
You found something on his phone, a text came through, you caught him in the act, whatever
it is.
Stuff is blown up in the marriage.
The reality that we see at Pure Desire is I cannot think of a single situation in discovery

(33:34):
where that was all of the information.
There's been a history here, there's a story here, there's more that needs to be
known.
In some ways, it'd be far better to give that couple time to process through some recovery
and what we call at Pure Desire, having some full disclosure of here's everything that's
happened and here's it all laid out so that when there's forgiveness, it's complete and

(33:57):
not partial.
I think some couples get into this unhealthy rhythm of, oh yeah, I forgot about this.
Okay, now I need to try to forgive again.
Oh yeah, then there was this and I forgive again.
It's like, will this ever stop or ever end?
I feel like I have to forgive no matter what versus if we know everything there is to forgive,
well then that forgiveness can take on a different flavor.

(34:20):
Also, I think there has to be some readiness in my heart and mind to know that when I say
I forgive you, I mean it, that I'm intentional and not just saying it because I'm supposed
to.
One of the things I do try to remind people, I think when we discuss forgiveness from a
biblical point of view of like, hey, we need to forgive or command it to, we're kind of

(34:40):
seeing forgiveness from God's point of view, that God can and does forgive immediately
because in every situation, God knows everything that's happened.
Like, there's nothing hidden from Him and God is a completely stabilized being that
never has to navigate his emotions or get himself back under control before he forgives.

(35:01):
So in any moment we go to Him, we can lay it all out and yes, immediately the forgiveness
of God through Christ is ours.
But none of us are God, right?
None of us are Jesus.
So we have more work to do maybe to get to that place where when I say I forgive you,
it means something versus just kind of being a bandaid over a situation that actually may

(35:22):
prevent us from doing some of the deeper work we need to do.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So good.
Yeah.
Fun fact, none of us are God in case you didn't know.
And if we could remember that, we'd all be better off.
Yes, we do.
God does not need to deal with his family of origin issues or the bullying he experienced
in junior high.
Yeah.

(35:42):
All right.
That is so good.
Thank you.
The next quote that we have is from Becky O and she shares, our pastor listened to our
story.
He was very compassionate and caring.
However, it was really hard to process the way he responded.
He praised my husband for being vulnerable and transparent.
And then he told me I needed to forgive my husband.

(36:04):
Great segue there.
He said my husband needed a supportive wife and scolded me for being unforgiving and holding
on to hurt.
He communicated that forgiving my husband would empower him to make healthier choices.
He just needs a wife who loves and respects him.
He's already dealing with so much shame, he said.
Then he walked me through an exercise of forgiveness right then and there in front of my husband.

(36:29):
I was longing to be seen and for my pain to be acknowledged.
I was in the depths of grief.
It was so hard to go through that experience as I was sitting in so much hurt and heartache.
It felt like another betrayal or a secondary trauma.
Step three for stabilizing this traumatic wound for this patient or stabilizing the
patient is that we're going to bandage the wound and stabilize them.

(36:52):
In this scenario, we're going to educate her about the healing process that she is entering
into.
What are your thoughts?
Yeah, I think we, like I mentioned earlier, need to see this as a longer process.
Maybe in pastoral ministry, especially as we were taught about counseling, we kind of

(37:14):
see ourselves in a session or two walking a couple through a plan of forgiveness and
restoration and being like, all right, you're good to go.
You forgave and Jesus healed you and we're all set.
The truth is, as I talked about, there's a process we need to walk through.
Patience definitely can and should be a part of that process, but it's definitely not

(37:35):
the whole process and it's not the upfront part of the process.
I mean, in the story you read, man, I wonder how much time that pastor spent with the struggle
or addict really assessing how sincerely did they feel repentant and how much had they
understood the impact that it had on their spouse.
How ready were they to acknowledge the level of their sin and completely deal with it and

(37:56):
begin to take those steps versus looking to the spouse is like, well, if you would just
forgive, this will all get better.
It's like, well, no, he's got some patterns he needs to deal with.
Now, I think when we do work with someone on forgiveness, it's helpful to maybe change
the language and not talk about forgiveness, but to process through a little more the negative

(38:17):
impacts of bitterness and anger on our own soul.
And so to try to help a betrayed spouse understand or figure out ways to deal with the natural
anger and the expected bitterness they're going to feel, because I think we do see stories
and you probably hear them where the bitterness or the anger that the spouse feels can lead

(38:38):
them so off course that they end up doing things that they later regret or have to work
through because in their anger, they went off into sin as well, or it just exacerbated
the situation to a whole new level.
And so there are dangers there, but expecting that forgiveness is the way to deal with that
is probably the wrong tact versus how can we help you understand this is hurtful, understand

(39:03):
and learn about some healthy ways to deal with it, get you in a community of other women
that have walked through this process and can help be maybe a holding place for your
pain because you do have pain and that pain needs to go somewhere.
But we can either let that pain transform us or we're going to transmit it onto someone
else.
And I think in a lot of stories we hear of betrayed spouses who recognize that their

(39:26):
kids ended up getting a brunt of anger that they were feeling because of their spouse.
And some of that is just they weren't educated on how much pain and anger I am feeling and
that it is normal and justified to feel this way, but that I do have options of how to
deal with it.
That I don't need to just stay stuck in it forever.

(39:47):
I can have some community I go to.
I can have places where I process that.
I mean, that is to me the value of counseling and that may not be with your pastor if this
isn't their area of training and expertise, but having a counselor that can look you in
the eye and say, I know where you're at.
I know how angry you feel.
And let's talk about why you're feeling that anger.
And when that anger flares up, let's talk about some strategies of how you can deal

(40:09):
with it and still stay present with your kids or not shipwreck other parts of your life.
Because I think that's one of the most challenging things that a betrayed spouse feels is this
whole area of her life and her marriage blows up.
But on the other hand, she still has to probably raise kids or have a job or take care of a
home or like they've got responsibilities and all those other responsibilities don't

(40:30):
just stop because they're going through all this pain and trauma.
And so I think that's part of the healing process too is say, let's come up with a
game plan of how are you going to navigate life in the areas that you can't just quit
being a mom.
You can't just most situations, you probably can't just quit your job.
So let's figure out a game plan.
How do we make this workable so that you have the time and space to then heal and recover.

(40:54):
So I think those are some of the pieces and just what we've been talking about to help
a spouse see that the healing process will first involve them dealing with the trauma
in their life and getting to a place where they feel safe and stabilized and that regrowing
the marriage is not even entirely up to them.
What their spouse does is a big part of that, but that that will come in secondary phases

(41:17):
as they start to see more clearly what's happening in the marriage.
So the other thing that we have found for a lot of spouses can be very helpful and you
do want to be thoughtful in how you bring this up, but many spouses have said how helpful
it was to understand the addictive cycle of the brain and the neurochemical side and that

(41:37):
it did involve a history and a pattern of this that it wasn't just that they weren't
beautiful enough and he found more beautiful women.
When they understand the neurochemical process of addiction, that that can be helpful for
them to kind of release themselves as some of the burden of if I was only better, he
wouldn't struggle.
Now, as I said, you'd have to be careful how you bring that up because I think I've heard

(41:58):
stories where a pastor or a well-intentioned leader kind of brings it up to say, well,
if you just understood addiction, you wouldn't feel bad.
It's like, no, it still is tremendously hurtful and traumatic, but that brain understanding
can create a little bit of depth of awareness that, okay, there's more going on here than

(42:18):
my own response or beauty that I bring to the marriage.
Mm-hmm.
Yes, that's, I'm really refraining from saying, Mike, drop, Jan.
That's kind of my key phrase that I say.
I halfway restrained.
I kind of said it, but not saying it.
You did, but you still snuck it in there.
So, Nick, we have this thing where Chris always says, Mike, drop, and I give her a really

(42:41):
hard time because it happens almost every episode.
Because we have smart people.
Smart people out here.
So good.
What I hear you saying, Nick, is that it's really about counseling the person, not the
problem, and coming alongside the person and not the problem.
That's the thing that Dan and I found at Pure Desire with our counselors there was

(43:02):
that Harry and Debbie, for the first time in our lives, approached us with relationship
rather than trying to solve our problem.
I love that.
I would love to have you touch just momentarily on some of those keys to trusting again.
I know that at Pure Desire, you talk about sincerity, ability, durability.
Briefly, can you touch on those three just as a guide towards starting to move towards

(43:29):
that trust again?
I'm part of that healing process.
Yeah.
Well, and I think that's just the point that in the healing process, there are kind of
two sides.
There's your own need or the spouse's need for healing, and then the marriage.
Those two may not happen concurrently depending on the response of the addicted or struggling
spouse.
Just like you said, the betrayed spouse is looking for sincerity initially.

(43:52):
Do they get that this is a big deal?
Are they truly repentant?
Are they just saying they're sorry, or do I see in their countenance and in their responses
that they are truly sorry and that they're grieving how much they've hurt me or brought
rupture into our marriage?
That sincerity starts to give a spouse hope that, oh, they see.

(44:12):
I remember my wife saying that, I felt like for the first time, you get it.
You get how much this is hurting me.
What a gift.
Well, sincerity is only a first step because then we need to show some ability because
I think I'd been sincere many times in our marriage, but hadn't shown any ability to
change.
What we do is sincere, and then we just keep going through the same cycle over time that's
going to wear a spouse out, wear a spouse out, and they may quit because it's just like

(44:36):
nothing is changing.
We need to see there's some ability to change, and that's things like he's going to group,
he's seeing a counselor, he's changing the way he uses the internet or his phone or his
computer, he's changing the way he interacts with coworkers or people of the opposite sex.
That's showing some ability to change.
Durability, the third piece, is just to keep doing those things for long enough that the

(44:58):
spouse sees, oh, this is a new normal.
This isn't just him making a few changes until I'm no longer mad and then going back to the
old patterns.
That stability and durability may take years.
That's where we talk about it being a three to five year process.
That doesn't mean he should be relapsing for three to five years, but it does mean it may
be three to five years until that trust level comes all the way back up to where it was

(45:22):
before discovery in the marriage.
Yeah.
That's good.
Thank you, Nick.
All right.
The next step is treating for shock, and in this case, that would be equivalent of normalizing
the experience.
So, Jen, would you read the quote from Sarah?
Yeah.
I called my pastor and his wife immediately after discovering my husband's betrayal, just

(45:44):
asking for support, reeling in hurt, shock, and fear.
I was clueless on what to even do next to get through the day.
They responded calmly, which helped my brain to recognize that my house was not physically
on fire and I was not about to experience imminent death I was feeling.
They took the sin seriously and tried not to sugarcoat my husband's behavior or coach

(46:05):
me into some false immediate forgiveness.
They sat with us for hours in a park and said the hard things to us both.
However, they did not know enough about sexual addiction to help us recognize what we were
up against.
We wasted years seeking answers and support in the wrong places for the wrong issues.

(46:28):
So, with normalizing the experience, some of the points we had were providing a community
of other recovering mentors or couples that will minimize isolation, minimize emotional
flooding, help her effectively deal with embarrassment, and provide a safe community that speaks the
same language.

(46:49):
And then next we want to help her deal with her emotions and emphasize that healing is
not a linear process.
It's kind of miraculous when it is.
It's the exception, not the rule.
Right, right.
And I think, you know, my son's a pastor and I would hope that anyone that would come to
him, he would have this ability to step into all these things that we have talked about

(47:11):
so far.
But even the greatest pastors don't necessarily know everything.
Even doctors, you know, they're specialists for reasons.
Not every doctor can know everything.
And so that's why we really want to push people toward or encourage them to consider people
who understand sexual betrayal, people who understand sex addiction.

(47:32):
And we'll get into that here at the end as we wrap up a little bit about what a CSAT
is, what a PSAP is, what betrayal trauma is, and some, you know, avenues to move toward
in that.
But understanding, you know, there's a term, when in doubt, refer out.
I would hope that myself as well as anyone else who may not be an expert on, I just smiled

(48:00):
because I'm really probably not an expert on a lot of things.
But for those who aren't an expert in a field, to recognize that and to have the ability
to refer out to those who are an expert in that field.
My son is fantastic.
He's walked with my husband, you know, he's watched, he hasn't walked with us, but he's
watched us walk out this process.

(48:21):
And he is a great resource.
But I hope that he, myself, anybody else would know that when we are at that point to where
we don't have the education that we might need to walk someone through that we would
refer that out to someone like, you know, the counselors of pure desire and whatnot
as well.
So when we're talking about, you know, helping people, I think that's an important aspect

(48:47):
to really consider that this is what this couple needed from Sarah.
They needed the right people in the right place and time.
Yeah, and can we just say that if you are a male pastor, you are not the right person
to walk a female betrayed spouse through recovery.
You can say mic drop now.
Oh, yeah.
That was a mic drop.

(49:07):
You can help.
You can be a bridge.
You can provide some direction.
But long term, I mean, unless you are a certified counselor in this area, that's not going to
be your primary role.
And how valuable is it to get a betrayed spouse into a group with other betrayed spouses being
led like through a peer desire group or others that have curriculum that have been tried

(49:29):
and tested over years to understand a pathway of healing that women are walking through
together with a leader that that kind of gets the process that that's going to be so much
more transformative than maybe us as a male pastor thinking our background in theology
and preaching is somehow going to be enough to get them to recovery.
So I think if we can find humility in that to just say, it's OK that I'm not the healing

(49:51):
answer for every person that comes to me, but I could be a bridge to the healing they
need.
And here's something else to think about.
Most betrayed spouses probably don't know initially that those resources even exist.
That's something we hear all the time at peer desire is betrayed spouses who will say, I
had no idea groups like this even existed.
When my husband acted out, I just went to Google and started typing in to try to find

(50:15):
what can I do so your church may have connections to great counselors or groups.
You may even have a group meeting in your church, but I would bet the vast majority
of women in your church have no idea they exist because part of it is until we need
it, we don't even think about it.
Right.
Like I see advertisements all the time that I never remember.
Why?
Because it's advertising something I don't want or need.

(50:36):
But if my car breaks down, suddenly I'm like, I'm aware of every mechanic ad, especially
it's out there, you know, discount because I need it.
And that's where betrayed spouses are.
They need care.
And if they come to you, a big part of your role is here's all the resources we have.
Here's all the connections we have.
And if as a pastor you realize, well, we don't have many.

(50:57):
Well, that is that step.
Number one is figure out what resources are in your community.
Get connected to pure desire.
Find counselors you trust that have been certified in this area.
Take them out to lunch and ask about their approach so that when a betrayed spouse comes
to you say, man, I have met so and so across town and she is fantastic in this area.
I would love to recommend you meet with her.

(51:18):
So all of that helps.
And the other thing I just wanted to say quickly, since part of treating for shock, you say,
is normalize the experience.
You know, one of the things we most commonly hear from men when they're stuck in their
struggle is I thought I was the only one because they come to church and they see all these
people that look normal and act fine, like why does nobody else struggle?

(51:38):
And then when it comes up and it's revealed that like, man, a lot of a struggle, the way
a guy will say it felt so great to know I wasn't alone.
Well, let's consider that that betrayed spouse has the exact same need because when they
find out their husband's struggling, they're asking all those same questions.
What's wrong with our marriage?
Why are we the only ones?
I must be the only spouse going through this.

(51:59):
And when they can find community with other women who've had that experience, the way
it takes them out of isolation is a huge part of the healing experience.
So creating that environment where those spouses learn I'm not alone.
Even saying that to them in that first session, like you are not alone.
You're not the only one.
This is happening far more than we realize.

(52:19):
And sure, we don't talk about it on Sunday morning because that wouldn't be appropriate
to bring couples up and say, oh, Joe and Sally are going through, you know, infidelity in
their marriage.
A lot of it does happen under the radar.
But I want you to know as your pastor, this is coming up all the time.
And you are not the only couple.
This this it's very hard what you're going through, but you're not alone and you're not

(52:40):
the only ones.
And we have a plan.
We have we have resources to help you.
That's so valuable.
There's that adage that a failure to have a plan is a plan to fail.
And so it's just like having a fire escape plan for your home.
You know, I encourage clergy, pastors, whatever, coaches to have a plan.

(53:03):
Like I love that, Nick, to be educated on what's out there.
And I love that.
And Voss camp.
I think that's how you say her last name quote.
That's shame dies when stories are shared in safe places.
And that was just so comforting even for me to hear you say that, Nick, that what you
said about you're not alone.
This this this happens.
I'm well versed in this and we got you.

(53:25):
We got you.
We're going to take you through.
What a gift that would be on D-Day, you know, or the week following weeks following.
Yeah.
OK.
So the next quote we have is from Megan and she says, I have often felt rushed in recovery
just so I can be, quote, spiritual again.
After just three months, I was told I was bitter simply because I was still hurting

(53:47):
so badly.
We didn't come across a solid recovery program until six months into betrayal.
I am so thankful we finally did.
But how much healthier would it have been if we could have had the right help in those
first few days and weeks?
I'm not sure if it's because this has hit me personally, but infidelity seems to have
a new face.

(54:08):
God fearing Jesus loving men and women end up in affairs.
The church desperately needs to be educated on the trauma of it all.
And I couldn't agree with her more.
So the fifth step out of six here of supporting this person who's suffered a traumatic wound
is to support the injury.
And that just flows into what we were just talking about is offering support and offering

(54:31):
support comes in the form of resources such as offer groups.
There are specific groups for men.
There are specific groups for women.
I know pure desire has excellent material, love it, seven pillars and betrayal and beyond.
I know pure life alliance has, oh, I can't think of the men's group right now, but healing

(54:53):
hurt for the women.
Bethesda workshops has great groups.
There's on and on and on.
So there's wonderful groups out there, books, therapy, coaching, podcasts like this one.
So if you're listening, good job finding your resources and some great devotionals, et cetera.
So let's talk about that for a second.

(55:13):
Nick, you just touched on what it looks like for a pastor in the beginning of this as a
first responder to offer support.
Any other thoughts come to mind or resources?
Yeah, I think it's helpful to remember that when a spouse is in this place, it's all consuming
and they are hungry and desperate for information.

(55:34):
And so if we just have kind of one, well, I just refer them to this one article.
Well, that may be a good starting point, but it's good to have kind of a library, a bit
of a war chest in mind of here's two or three podcasts we recommend.
Here's several books.
Here's a couple of authors that we trust.
Here's groups we're aware of.
Like, and if you can provide that, that doesn't mean they have to do all of them.

(55:54):
But I think sometimes the abundance of resources is part of the way we communicate.
This is important to us because if we come across as like, well, I don't know a whole
lot about this.
I've heard of one book.
I've never really read it, but someone said it was good once that kind of leaves, I think
the betrayed spouse feeling I'm on my own to figure this out.
And I'm not trying to say a pastor needs to become an expert.

(56:15):
I do think it is helpful if we educate ourselves on some of the neurochemistry of the brain.
I mean, Dr. William Struthers from Wheaton College wrote a great book called Wired for
Intimacy.
I believe every pastor should read that.
Jay Stringer wrote a great book about our desires called Unwanted and helping understand
where these desires come from, that they're not random.
It's not just a man's problem.

(56:39):
And so we can educate ourselves, but I don't say we need to be an expert.
I do think that we need to have a wide array of resources that communicates to the couple
and the betrayed spouse.
Just what you said earlier, Chris, we got you.
Here's resources that we have vetted that we trust.
And if we don't feel like we have those, I do think that's our responsibility as a pastor.

(57:02):
And the other thing I might add to it is if you don't think that's you, like if you don't
have the bandwidth to learn about some of that, you need to find another pastor on your
staff or a lay leader that you trust that you feel is the expert and quickly involve
them.
You know, I had a wonderful partner in ministry when I was a pastor.
My women's ministry director, Pastor Anne, was so compassionate in ways that I wasn't

(57:27):
was so connected to the counseling community.
And I will tell you, I never met with a woman or a couple without bringing in just because
I knew all of the resources that I hadn't read and had read them.
And she could she could do all of that.
So I could still provide kind of that pastoral voice, you know, being the senior pastor for
some people.

(57:48):
That meant a lot that Nick met with us.
But if I had an there as kind of that she's got all these other pieces, not only did it
I think help the woman feel supported because there's now another woman in the room, it
just created that connection to all those resources.
So that the summary there to say if you don't have all that connection and don't have time
to create it, find some of your church that already has that expertise and pull them in

(58:12):
as often as possible.
You know, we were sitting just sitting here listening to all these quotes that we have
that we have shared today.
And I was thinking, oh, my goodness, the role of a pastor, it's got as rewarding as it is
and must be, there must be so much weight that is put on a pastor's shoulders.

(58:34):
I remember going to my pastor when my first husband when I discovered my first husband's
pornography addiction and looking back, it was a hurtful experience.
But now that I look back at it with with almost 20 years hindsight, I'm like, oh, my goodness,
poor guy, like all the things that have come his way and all the pressure that was on him

(58:57):
to be all things to all people.
Even even as a betrayed spouse, I think there's room to really consider that pastors are human,
too.
And and and we have the same Holy Spirit in us that pastors have in them.
And sometimes I think we expect our pastors to really not have anything personal going

(59:20):
on, not have any of their own struggles, even though the statistics said differently.
We read that at the beginning.
I think sometimes just as a listener, somebody who's listening today, let's remember that
we're all trying to do life together.
And pastors, while while a lot of these quotes have been really hurtful, my guess is that

(59:42):
they haven't been intentional.
And so if you have been hurt, if you've been hurt by someone in your church or someone
in leadership in your church, specifically your pastor, please keep in mind that they're
doing most of the time.
They're doing the best they can with what they know.

(01:00:03):
And if and as with any of us, we do the best we can with what we know until we know better
than we do better.
Right.
So just kind of a word out there that was just put on my heart right now.
I'm like, oh, my gosh, these pastors absorb a lot of trauma and a lot of things that come
their way that they may not be equipped for.
And not that we're in charge of that for them.

(01:00:25):
We're not in charge of their inner world, of what they're going through, but certainly
something to consider when approaching and when we're when we're when we've experienced
hurt from them.
They're human, too.
You know?
Yeah.
Yep.
Yep.
Absolutely.
And there are rarer cases, the exception, not the rule.
But that's what we're wanting to move toward is to offer all of us to be better equipped.

(01:00:48):
So the sixth and final step to how to treat this traumatic wound is if the wound is too
severe, call 911.
Ask for help.
So refer out to trained personnel.
So we're going to talk about CSATs and and APSATs and all these acronyms here in just
a second.
But first, Jen, would you read that final testimony that was shared with us?

(01:01:09):
All right.
When I went to my pastor two years ago, our new marriage asking for guidance and I'm going
to start that over.
Okay.
When I went to my pastor two years ago into our new marriage asking for guidance and help
with my husband's porn or sex addiction problem, he listened to me through my tears as I poured

(01:01:30):
out my husband's betrayals with porn and other women via Facebook.
After I was done, he tried to minimize my pain by saying he had a Facebook account himself
and he had friends, quote unquote, friends who were female that he would message and
that maybe I was misunderstanding my husband's intentions with these other women.

(01:01:51):
He said he would talk with my husband about it and that maybe marriage counseling would
be helpful for us.
Like it was more of a marriage issue than a sex addiction issue of my husband's.
I walked out of my pastor's office that day feeling hurt and angry.
I felt hopeless.
Like my pastor doesn't see it as a total betrayal of our marriage and an addiction problem of

(01:02:11):
my husband.
If he doesn't see that, who will?
That was from Kendall.
Yep.
So, who do we refer out to?
Who are the trained personnel we're referring to?
Nick, what do you have to offer there?
Yeah, I think this whole area requires a humility on our part as pastors to embrace what we've

(01:02:33):
already talked about, that I don't have to be the expert on everything in order to help
people.
And I know in several situations, the tact that I would take would be to say to someone,
hey, I'm here for you.
I want you to know I'm going to pray with you.
I can provide support.
I can point you back to Christ and his presence with us and that he never leaves us, never
forsakes us.

(01:02:53):
I can provide some of that spiritual care for you as long as is needed.
But I've not had experience like with the legal situation that you're in, to your story,
Jen.
I've not had experience in really being trained in walking through infidelity.
And so, like I said, I can support you and pray for you, but I'd really encourage you
to begin meeting with someone that this is their area of expertise.

(01:03:15):
It's kind of like my, we use illustration.
My mom was a career nurse and she gets a lot of the phone calls from us of, hey, Nurse
Rhonda.
You know, what do we do about this?
And she's got great general ideas and directions, but there are points she's got, Nick, you
guys need to go talk to a doctor, right?
So when she knows like, hey, this sounds a little more serious.
That's why you got a doctor, Nick.

(01:03:35):
Go talk, go find your doctor.
And then sometimes we go to the doctor, right?
And what does he say?
Like, I can help you here some medicine.
But other times he says, you need to go to a specialist because I'm trained, but I'm
not trained in that to the level you need.
I need you to go talk to, you know, someone in, you know, a bone doctor.
I'm forgetting what they're called, an ortho.

(01:03:56):
Anyway, people know all the names out there.
So in situations like this as a pastor, we may have training in some areas.
And I think it's okay to say, I'm trained in this.
I'm trained to love you and help you find Christ, but I'm not trained in divorce and
the aftermath of that and separation plans and parenting plans.

(01:04:17):
And but I know some great counselors that do a lot of this work.
Let me get you connected to them.
And to realize that's actually a gift to someone.
Because like I mentioned, they're not aware of that community, maybe to the degree that
you are.
And if there's someone you trust, that can be a great starting point because they're
just looking at a phone book going, well, what counselor do I call?

(01:04:38):
What professional do I even start with?
And so if we can provide those resources, that helps.
We do recommend looking up someone that is a certified sex addiction therapist for counselors.
That's the official designation you can get from ITAP, which there's an acronym for everything
in counseling.
Yes.
That's the International Institute of Trauma and Addiction Professionals that are kind

(01:04:58):
of leading the way in sexual addiction recovery and understanding all the facets of that.
And they give a CSAT label to counselors or a PSAP is a pastoral sex addiction professional.
That's a pastor that has done some of the initial training to help be that bridge into
professional care.

(01:05:18):
I would mention there's a Christian group called CSASI that has begun certifying some
Christian counselors in the area of sexual addiction and recovery.
So you could look for CSASI, C-S-A-S-I.
And I don't have off the top of my head what their acronym is for, but they're another
group that we trust.
And then the group APSATS works a lot with betrayed spouses.

(01:05:41):
APSATS, you can look for someone that's been APSATS trained because that's some significant
betrayed spouse focused training that they've been given.
And on either of those websites, on the ITAP website or APSATS, and hopefully you put all
of this in your show notes since no one's trying to write this down while driving or
they're falling off the treadmill trying to write a note.

(01:06:03):
If you go to those websites, you can actually find their referrals to people in your area
that may have those credentials.
So that's always a great place to check.
And APSATS stands for the Association of Partners of Sex Addicts Trauma Specialists.
So CSATS are specifically trained for more towards the addict and the APSATS side is

(01:06:26):
more trained to the betrayed spouse to support them.
And they co-communicate and cross-train there, but that's what their specialties are.
Anything else you'd like to add to that, Jen?
I would actually would love for Nick to maybe highlight a little bit about what Pure Desire
does.
What do you have to offer?
What does the organization have to offer the sex addict as well as the betrayed spouse?

(01:06:49):
Yeah, we offer counseling for both couples and individuals.
So we often get betrayed spouses who call and the husband has either left or is unwilling
to begin counseling and we can begin working directly with them on a female basis.
We do match up genders or if the couple is doing counseling, we counsel couples as couples.

(01:07:10):
So that's kind of a unique distinctive of our ministry that the husband and wife are
both going to have a male female advocate in the room with them or on the virtual Zoom
room to create that plan as a couple.
And we just find that's tremendously effective when a husband or wife can be meeting with
a male female team.
And we've been doing that for 20 years at Pure Desire.

(01:07:32):
And then we have a network of recovery groups, either online or in person at churches.
And you can find all that at the pure desire.org website.
If you search for groups or I need a group, we've got a button all over the website about
groups and that'll take you to the two paths of either online or in person.
And you could find a betrayal and beyond group for the wives or a seven pillars group for

(01:07:53):
the men.
And then we also have if women are the ones that are struggling with addictive behavior,
we have groups called unraveled for women that are walking through maybe their own addictive
behaviors to overcome.
So yeah, the two wings for us are kind of groups and counseling.
And we find that actually both work together really well because counselors provide that
high level professional care and the group provides that community of peers that you

(01:08:18):
need as you walk the journey through your recovery.
That's fantastic.
Nick, could you share one more thing?
You guys have an annual summit that is in person.
Could you tell us a little bit about what that is?
And I'm assuming you might have dates already going.
We're in 2024.
But just to give that resource out to people where they might want to come in person and

(01:08:43):
experience virtually virtually in person or live streaming.
We've added that.
So that is the middle weekend of September, September 20th and 21st.
You can come in person here and join us in Troutdale just outside of Portland.
And by the way, September in Portland is the fall of love month.
I warn you, if you come to Portland in the fall, you're going to think the whole world

(01:09:05):
should move here because it's beautiful.
So it is a great trip.
Or if you want to join online, you can get a virtual pass.
And yeah, it's going to be great.
We have Dr. Nancy Piercy coming, the author of Love Thy Body, Pastor Josh Broome, who
was a former porn star and is now a pastor.
And his story is compelling.
And yeah, he's going to do some great stuff on just our identity and finding our identity

(01:09:32):
in Christ.
And then we also plan to be releasing a report that we've been doing with BARNA, the BARNA
Group on brand new stats about porn use and the church.
And so plan to hear from president of their organization, David Kinnaman is on our speaking
list as well, as well as myself and some of the PD team.
So we'd love to have you join us September 20 and 21 for the PD Summit.

(01:09:57):
Excellent.
I will plan to be there.
I'm looking forward to that.
Absolutely.
Thank you, Nick.
I would love to close this up with a quote from a pastor that actually blessed me so
deeply that I don't think even to this moment that I can read this completely without crying.
So bear with me.
We're going to get vulnerable here listeners.
There might be some sniffles and tears, but this wasn't said directly to me.

(01:10:21):
This was on a podcast and I can't tell you how many people I've shared this with.
So this pastor said, speaking of validating and believing her, he said, it's fair to expect
your spouse has eyes only for you.
It doesn't matter how sexualized our culture has become.
It is fair.
I believe a God given desire in a marriage relationship to say, I want to be the only

(01:10:44):
one you look at or see in that way.
And there's the tears.
So don't buy into the cultural garbage that says that's just what guys do or boys will
be boys sowing their wild oats.
It is fair for you betrayed spouse to expect that you will be honored by your husband's
thoughts and actions.

(01:11:06):
I'm so grateful for that quote.
Because I heard that in the first three weeks of my betrayal experience and I hung onto
that like a life raft and that quotes from Nick Stumbo.
So thank you, Nick, for being there for me.
Yeah, you're welcome.

(01:11:26):
Nick, did you know that was you?
I'm like, that sounds like the way I talk.
I wonder if that's me.
I got through that.
Sorry, not sorry listeners for the tears.
But you know, five years into our recovery story and ours has turned out so well that
still just, that just that hit my deep need and still is so validating.

(01:11:50):
So thank you for your pastoral direction in that Nick.
It really helped me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I think it's for all of us.
It's a beautiful invitation to honor the vows we make at our weddings, right?
Because we say forsaking all others.
And in that moment, I think we know that doesn't just mean physically like forsaking all others
means you're going to be my one and only.
And if I'm struggling to live that out, I need to do the work I need to do so that I

(01:12:15):
can bring that to the marriage.
And that's, yeah, when we accept that I'm just trying to honor the vows I made at the
beginning, that can be a game changer for the struggler to see I need to be sincere about
my recovery.
Yeah.
100%.
And God takes those vows seriously and it is a covenant relationship.
We're not entering into a contract.

(01:12:36):
It's a covenant and it's serious.
So okay, Nick, thank you.
Thank you so much for joining us.
We've been looking forward to this and we knew that you were the exact right person
for this conversation.
So on that note, listeners, thank you for tuning in and being a part of our podcast
community.

(01:12:56):
Your support is so valuable to us and we are here to support you.
In fact, we'd love to hear from you and you can reach us at thebrtpodcast at gmail.com
and we'll put that in the show notes as well with the contact information for Pure Desire
and the summit and all that good stuff.
So please be sure to like, subscribe, rate the show.

(01:13:17):
It helps others to find us.
It changes that algorithm to help others find their way here and we'll see you back here
soon.
Thanks everybody.
See you next time.
Thank you for joining us for this episode of the betrayal recovery transformation podcast
with your hosts, Chris Rocha and Jen Howey.
We hope you've been helped and encouraged.
If you value the content we shared today, please feel free to rate, subscribe and leave

(01:13:41):
a review.
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