All Episodes

August 15, 2024 20 mins

Send us a text

Recently, there has been a surge on social media stating that diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) are bad for business.  Some of the world’s largest firms have also significantly reduced their investment in diversity and inclusion.  But what does this mean for boards that do believe DEI are good for business? Should they change how they approach this agenda, and if so, how? 

In this podcast, Dr Sabine Dembkowski, Founder and Managing Partner of Better Boards, discusses whether DEI is bad for business with Prof Grace Lordan from the London School of Economics, Founding Director of The Inclusion Initiative, economist, and labour market skills expert.   

“What boards need to think about is how inclusive are their teams at the micro level, so that when they aggregate, we get those productivity gains”
Grace opens by considering an example – an imaginary scenario where DEI might negatively impact business.  Imagine starting a new job and meeting your team for the first time, being different in some way – perhaps gender, ethnicity, or language.  You have valuable knowledge and are excited to contribute, but you're repeatedly interrupted or ignored when you speak up. In this situation, you could respond in one of four ways: silence, dissent, quitting and conformity. These responses show how poor inclusion can make DEI detrimental to business.  

“The biggest thing we can do is say this board doesn't engage in consensus-based decision making”
Grace notes that boards must consider what's happening in the room and any member’s desire to “fit in.”  She attributes many big behavioural risk scandals to groupthink at the team level and board members who are aware of a potential issue but fail to speak up because they don't want to upset the apple cart. 

“These good habits, unfortunately, haven't necessarily infiltrated boards yet”
Behavioural changes are vital to advancing diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) in organisations, not only at the board level.  Grace outlines how to promote inclusive behaviours, starting with establishing clear rules for meeting hygiene.  These guidelines will ensure everyone has an opportunity to speak. 

“If you invest in an inclusive culture, you should see gains in the fundamentals. You definitely won't see losses”
Grace’s research explores the broader implications of inclusion on fundamental business metrics such as growth, innovation, patent filings, stock returns, return on equity, and return on assets.  She established a clear, positive relationship between inclusion and long-term business outcomes.  Diversity alone showed gains only after reaching critical mass. However, when inclusion is paired with diversity, the need for a high critical mass diminishes.

“Millions and millions of pounds are wasted each year on diversity equity and inclusion initiatives”
Grace notes that to realise productivity gains, board members must prioritise fostering a culture of inclusion, where diversity is genuinely valued and diverse talents are not pressured into conformity.  

The three top takeaways for effective boards from our conversation are:

  1. Integrate inclusion with diversity: Ensure that diversity and inclusion strategies are embedded within the business, not confined to HR or external consultants.
  2. Audit and enhance


Come Join The Better Boards Community

We’d love to get to know you! If you’d like to become part of the Better Boards community, discover our unique approach, and explore ways to work with us or share your ideas on The Better Boards Podcast series, drop us a line at info@better-boards.com.



Mark as Played

Advertise With Us

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know
Dateline NBC

Dateline NBC

Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com

The Burden

The Burden

The Burden is a documentary series that takes listeners into the hidden places where justice is done (and undone). It dives deep into the lives of heroes and villains. And it focuses a spotlight on those who triumph even when the odds are against them. Season 5 - The Burden: Death & Deceit in Alliance On April Fools Day 1999, 26-year-old Yvonne Layne was found murdered in her Alliance, Ohio home. David Thorne, her ex-boyfriend and father of one of her children, was instantly a suspect. Another young man admitted to the murder, and David breathed a sigh of relief, until the confessed murderer fingered David; “He paid me to do it.” David was sentenced to life without parole. Two decades later, Pulitzer winner and podcast host, Maggie Freleng (Bone Valley Season 3: Graves County, Wrongful Conviction, Suave) launched a “live” investigation into David's conviction alongside Jason Baldwin (himself wrongfully convicted as a member of the West Memphis Three). Maggie had come to believe that the entire investigation of David was botched by the tiny local police department, or worse, covered up the real killer. Was Maggie correct? Was David’s claim of innocence credible? In Death and Deceit in Alliance, Maggie recounts the case that launched her career, and ultimately, “broke” her.” The results will shock the listener and reduce Maggie to tears and self-doubt. This is not your typical wrongful conviction story. In fact, it turns the genre on its head. It asks the question: What if our champions are foolish? Season 4 - The Burden: Get the Money and Run “Trying to murder my father, this was the thing that put me on the path.” That’s Joe Loya and that path was bank robbery. Bank, bank, bank, bank, bank. In season 4 of The Burden: Get the Money and Run, we hear from Joe who was once the most prolific bank robber in Southern California, and beyond. He used disguises, body doubles, proxies. He leaped over counters, grabbed the money and ran. Even as the FBI was closing in. It was a showdown between a daring bank robber, and a patient FBI agent. Joe was no ordinary bank robber. He was bright, articulate, charismatic, and driven by a dark rage that he summoned up at will. In seven episodes, Joe tells all: the what, the how… and the why. Including why he tried to murder his father. Season 3 - The Burden: Avenger Miriam Lewin is one of Argentina’s leading journalists today. At 19 years old, she was kidnapped off the streets of Buenos Aires for her political activism and thrown into a concentration camp. Thousands of her fellow inmates were executed, tossed alive from a cargo plane into the ocean. Miriam, along with a handful of others, will survive the camp. Then as a journalist, she will wage a decades long campaign to bring her tormentors to justice. Avenger is about one woman’s triumphant battle against unbelievable odds to survive torture, claim justice for the crimes done against her and others like her, and change the future of her country. Season 2 - The Burden: Empire on Blood Empire on Blood is set in the Bronx, NY, in the early 90s, when two young drug dealers ruled an intersection known as “The Corner on Blood.” The boss, Calvin Buari, lived large. He and a protege swore they would build an empire on blood. Then the relationship frayed and the protege accused Calvin of a double homicide which he claimed he didn’t do. But did he? Award-winning journalist Steve Fishman spent seven years to answer that question. This is the story of one man’s last chance to overturn his life sentence. He may prevail, but someone’s gotta pay. The Burden: Empire on Blood is the director’s cut of the true crime classic which reached #1 on the charts when it was first released half a dozen years ago. Season 1 - The Burden In the 1990s, Detective Louis N. Scarcella was legendary. In a city overrun by violent crime, he cracked the toughest cases and put away the worst criminals. “The Hulk” was his nickname. Then the story changed. Scarcella ran into a group of convicted murderers who all say they are innocent. They turned themselves into jailhouse-lawyers and in prison founded a lway firm. When they realized Scarcella helped put many of them away, they set their sights on taking him down. And with the help of a NY Times reporter they have a chance. For years, Scarcella insisted he did nothing wrong. But that’s all he’d say. Until we tracked Scarcella to a sauna in a Russian bathhouse, where he started to talk..and talk and talk. “The guilty have gone free,” he whispered. And then agreed to take us into the belly of the beast. Welcome to The Burden.

Music, radio and podcasts, all free. Listen online or download the iHeart App.

Connect

© 2026 iHeartMedia, Inc.