How do you engage with diverse, indigenous, and culturally different groups as a Business Analyst—without falling into tokenism or consultation theatre?
In this episode of The Better Business Analyst Podcast, Benjamen Walsh shares 10 practical, real-world strategies for building trust, cultural safety, and authentic engagement across difference.
From using talking circles to co-designing solutions, from recognising consultation fatigue to adapting timelines to cultural processes—you’ll walk away with actionable tools and powerful mindset shifts.
If you’ve ever felt stuck engaging stakeholders who don’t think, speak, or work like you—this episode is for you.
🎧 Listen now and learn how to become a bridge-builder in your work.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Have you ever walked into a roomwhere no one looks like you,
thinks like you, or even wants you there?
Have you faced a wall of silencefrom stakeholders you're
supposed to be engaging, or feltthat no matter how good your
questions are, something's left unsaid?
(00:22):
This episode's for you because business analysts.
Our job isn't just about collecting requirements, it's
about building bridges. And when those bridges cross
cultural, historical, Indigenousrights and deeply held values,
it's no longer business as usual.
(00:45):
So how do you engage with diverse, Indigenous and
culturally different groups without causing harm, without
missing nuances, and without falling into the old traps of
consultation theatre? The Better Business Analysis
Institute presents the Better Business Analysis Podcast with
(01:06):
Kingsman Walsh. You had a car tour and welcome
back to the Better Business Analysis Podcast.
And I'm Benjamin Walsh, your host.
And today we are going to be talking about one of the most
important episodes of Recorded. We're going to be talking about
how business analysts engage with diverse, indigenous and
(01:28):
culturally different groups, something we're all going to
face whether we realize it or not, or whether or not we have
pre held beliefs about those groups.
I'm going to give you 10 actionable strategies with real
world examples unpacking the how, the why and the what and
when for each. Let's start with #1 and that is
(01:51):
to start with cultural humility,not cultural competence.
This is something people get wrong and I live in New Zealand.
We have indigenous people, the multi people who were here much
before the Western Europeans, they came later.
And we have some deep rooted culture that flows through New
(02:14):
Zealand and it's been built on what we call the Treaty of
Waitangi, which is a founding document of this country.
And this is quite recent. So unlike other countries where
maybe they're indigenous people are much smaller, have only
recently been kind of acknowledged.
New Zealand is not like that. We have a very clear around the
(02:38):
fact that multi people are the owners of this land and that we
need to work together for a common good in Altera, New
Zealand. Now in saying that, it does not
mean that as a European, I'm a white European first generation
New Zealander, that I should be just mimicking multiculture for
(02:59):
life benefits. So you won't know everything as
a business analyst, right? The answer isn't know
everything. Yes, educate, but we'll get
there and that's OK. Cultural humility acknowledges
that you are a learner, not an expert in someone else's lived
experience. Shift your mindset from knowing
(03:22):
the culture to being open to learning.
And when I say learning, I mean actually taking actionable steps
to learn from your very first meeting or discovery call.
Make this explicit and introductions.
Let people guide you about how they would like to be addressed.
Acknowledge the limits of your knowledge.
(03:46):
I've worked quite a few times actually within Maori
organization and with Maori stakeholders.
OK, I'm just picking that as an example because I live in New
Zealand now. Rather than assuming what Team
Kanga applied, which is culturaltraditions in Maori and around
engagement and welcoming and allthe protocols in terms of
(04:09):
engaging with NTR Maori, I askedif me or a katakia was
appropriate to opening meetings.And a katakia is is almost a
welcoming and a Mickey Fuckito is talking about my background.
(04:29):
And I only know this through my kids, through experience, and
through learning. And that small question builds
trust because then I can go awayand I can do it.
I've seen the flip side. I'm working currently in an
organization that very much embraces multiculture and sees
multidim as an important elementof New Zealand, which I
(04:52):
completely personally agree with.
However, it can get to a point where people feel as though they
need to, like I said, mimic multiculture as opposed to go
along with the journey and learn.
So it can actually be sometimes embarrassing.
Post to those around and to the people you're engaging with.
(05:17):
If you are trying to, I guess, replicate exactly or mirror
traditions, which may not make sense for you to do.
So just be really careful of that.
One note on .1, which I've addedlater, which is you should be
(05:37):
working with people from different cultures and if you're
engaging with stakeholders from that culture, it would make
sense to use your experience. That's why we should have people
who are cultural ambassadors from our team.
So if you don't know everything,maybe there's someone on your
team that can guide you through it on to #2 You need to invest
(05:59):
time in relationship building before problem solving.
Yes, I give you practical tips and I don't sometimes talk about
all the soft stuff. Relationship building is number
one for ABA. OK, it's almost a given.
Some cultures value relationships much more than
(06:20):
solving the problem or the task.Skipping this step creates a
trust defect and that can never be recovered.
So allocate intentional time to connect as people first human
centred. When working for the T Co Hunger
National Trust, which was the trust that looked after early
childhood centres that are within Moldedom in New Zealand,
(06:45):
I had to engage with a lot of stakeholders, including Co
hunger centres across New Zealand, which had different
views of the trust. Definitely.
But we're uncertain of the crown, the government of New
Zealand, which is basically built on the the UK European
model, which were the kind of settlers here.
(07:06):
And so building that trust and having a cup of tea and sitting
down and spending just an hour about my background, where I've
come from, being honest about it.
And I'm not trying to make anything up as out like I'm so
experienced in this area. I just talked about where I've
come from. I'm first generation New
Zealand. That hour was critical in
(07:28):
getting honest answers later andit took a few sessions.
This is number 3. It's a really good one.
It's to use culturally appropriate facilitation
methods. So some groups won't respond to
Western style brainstorming or dominant speaker dynamics.
(07:49):
It actually just doesn't work. And you can think about culture
there in terms of literally cultures around the country, but
sort of around the world, but also within organizations,
actually subcultures. So think about that too.
You need to adapt your facilitation to match what the
cultural protocols are in that organization and those people.
(08:11):
Anytime you run workshop, Co design or engagement sessions,
you should be thinking about this and you can use tools like
talking circles or in New Zealand and multidim is a great
way of just talking like a talking circle and it allows
everyone to speak in turn. No one interrupts, people just
listen. And and what's ironic is at the
(08:34):
National Trust, this was very much done every morning.
And it was so clear to me that in a Western society we have
adopted that as stand ups. That's almost the equivalent,
but I guess as opposed to a stand ups, we're kind of the
loudest person talks or people working on stuff and Modi them.
Everyone talks if they would like to talk, which I think is
(08:56):
fantastic. And it's amazing how some of
these more Eastern views have come into Western, I guess,
rituals and traditions we now adopt.
I've had engagement sessions where we have literally allowed
everyone to talk around the group.
(09:18):
So each voice is heard and it's almost like a virtual talking
stick. And I will acknowledge the
person and I will say their nameand I'll learn their name.
And I'm terrible with that. And I'll read out and I'll ask
them their name and I'll say, look, you haven't contributed.
Would you like to contribute anything?
Anything's fine. Oh, no, no, no, I don't, I, I
don't wanna say anything 'cause I think, you know, I don't
(09:40):
really have too many ideas. And you've got to allow that
person time to speak. So I'm right now your mindset
might be in a room of different cultures, but again, there's
other elements you should think about in terms of neurodiverse
people. So people with different types
of autism, they will be introverted and they will not
(10:03):
speak. So you've got to give them a
time and a place to do so. And their insight is generally
gonna be fantastic if you can get them on the side because
they're really thinking about things.
And you know, that's a generalization, but make sure
that you are giving everyone a chance to speak.
Really important, especially forthose people in IT.
(10:24):
And it is to translate technicallanguage into accessible terms.
OK, technical jargon can be a barrier to engagement,
especially across cultures or languages.
People just won't understand what it is.
Speaks simple English and English is a complicated
language. We have words that mean same
words that mean different thingsand all the all the rest of it.
(10:46):
So breakdown business process and IT terms the plain language
and do that you know during elicitation validation and sign
off and test your definitions, your explanations with
non-technical users 1st through diagrams and that's why visuals
(11:07):
is so important. So I have many a time replaced
my diagrams so they make sense and made them simplified to a
point that I feel like they're they're less valuable.
But it allows people to understand what they are.
OK. And that applies to different
culture or just different mindsets or even people of with
(11:27):
different time. So management don't have much
time. So you've got to change your way
you communicate with them, whichwe've talked about before #5 is
to include cultural values and goals and your persona, right?
So if I'm going to design a system for all New Zealanders
and 10 to 12% of the population are Maori, well, and my product
(11:53):
is, is aimed at that demographicarea.
Well, well, firstly one, I should be hiring people that
know what they're talking about in that area and engaging and
having a Maori advisor on board.But also my personas, my
standard personas, they need to talk about the motivation shaped
by culture, history and community context, enriched
(12:18):
personas with cultural, social and political factors early
during customer research and design.
And you can ask questions about the person's background, the
kind of, I guess their EWI, which is their tribe in New
(12:39):
Zealand and, and create those. Now I'm going to give you 2
interesting stories here. Stories is when I work for the
Royal Commission here in New Zealand and the abuse and care
inquiry, which was around terrible things that had
happened to people and our kind of foster system and the
(13:00):
national system and religious institutions.
And it was terrible. We looked at all types of abuse
and we had survivors, of course.And we ended up having witnesses
and it was taken to court. And that Commission has since
finished its inquiry and it, youknow, it's, it's not the best
(13:21):
reading anyway. I was doing a lot of the
customer journey mapping for that inquiry and a lot of the
system work. And one of the interesting areas
is we created personas for how survivors and witnesses may
engage with the Commission. And I really wanted to make them
(13:43):
culturally appropriate because even though Maori make up a
smaller percentage of the population, New Zealand, they
were by far the most affected through this terrible abuse in
here. Now, that meant I created
personas that reflected that culture.
(14:06):
And during a design session, oneof the Modi advisors there
raised or challenged me about a persona and said that they felt
that the persona was not a true reflection of multiculture and
seemed to be lip service and really almost inappropriate to
(14:27):
use. What was fascinating is that I
had actually worked with throughan advisor and with a specific
instance of a survivor who allowed us to use the details,
their story. That's what we did.
Now, I was hugely mortified in the workshop.
(14:51):
There were lots of other stakeholders in it.
It was a sign off session and this was a huge lesson for me,
which meant that when you engagewith culture, it's not a one way
street. I had done what I thought was
the right thing. I hadn't taken this one person
who was obviously going to be looking at it from their lived
(15:13):
experience and I hadn't let themknow this information.
So their assumption that I had made this up or, you know, tried
my best was not true. You know, it was really a
survivor that we we used and asked to use their information.
And it was just ironic because the name was quite a, an easy to
say name and some people thoughtmaybe, you know, we'd made it as
(15:36):
a token Modi survivor now. So that was a mistake was one me
not engaging with this individual to beforehand who
really had skin in the game and probably had seen this many
times before and thought, oh, here we go.
But it also highlights the reverse.
(15:57):
People had seen me as this male,you know, 40 year old man who
was European and that maybe thisperson had shortcutted the
process and hadn't followed tickon that hadn't been culturally
appropriate. And maybe it was the fact that I
(16:17):
was even presenting it. So it's a two way St. might have
some preconceived ideas about someone's culture and they might
have some preconceived ideas about how you take their
culture. OK, so just be open to the fact
that that can happen and learn from your mistakes.
It's be patient with consensus driven decision making.
(16:42):
I'm going to jump to a completely different culture in
a minute, but some cultures prioritize collective decision
making over individual authority.
I've been here. Allow space and time for the
consensus to emerge during approval sign offs and decision
gates. Bake that into your project
plan. Ask who else needs to be
(17:05):
consulted before a decision is confirmed.
Build longer feedback loops intoyour plan.
I'm going to give you an exampleoutside of the New Zealand
context. And that's when I worked for
Sony Ericsson Global and I had ateam, was quite young at the
time, in my mid 20s. And I actually had a technical
(17:25):
team that reported to me in London, Sweden, just outside of
Malmo, if you know where that is.
And the team itself was fantastic.
I learned quite a lot about culture in terms of making or
asking people to work till 5:00 PM, when in Sweden people finish
(17:50):
at 4:00 PM and they have lunch at 11:00.
Generally, this is a generalization for that
organization, but the fact that it was set, those workers had
those rights. And I ended up almost putting
someone at tears and their wife calling me because we were going
live. And I asked this person to do an
extra hour till 5:00 PM because I was flying in and out and out
(18:11):
at 7. And I just asked them if they
could do that and it was a big deal.
That isn't my lesson, but it's an interesting story.
My lesson here is that in Sweden, the default decision
making at Sony Ericsson was consensus.
It was so difficult to get a decision made around
implementing a change managementprocess within this new IT
(18:34):
system we had. Yes, it was global when yes,
people need to be consulted. But ultimately, when I took it
to the leadership team and learned, it was so difficult to
get consensus and it was very much like working with a a whole
lot of engineers who needed to know everything before they can
(18:56):
make a decision. And it was painful.
And ironically, Sony Ericsson identified that and used to have
stories around the Japanese element of their business very
culturally kind of generalized Sweden and in London, where the
central office got moved to while I worked there and, and
the, and the, the messaging was,well, in the UK, we can make
(19:19):
decisions. I don't know if that's true or
not, but that was the rumour that went around the
organization #7 is to recognize historical trauma and
consultation fatigue happens often, especially in this
country, but I'm sure it can happen in other countries.
Indigenous and marginalized groups may approach engagement
(19:42):
with justified skepticism and just engage disengagement.
They've just been here. They won't they might have a
perception you're we're not honouring past experiences.
We need to be transparent and weneed to be accountable for our
(20:03):
past actions on sometimes on behalf of and you need to do
this at the stage of engagement.So if I'm working for a
government department, I represent government.
OK, It's not. People can get hung up on this
and you get a lot of. Unfair alt right kind of
propaganda saying, oh, you know,I'm not responsible for what my
(20:25):
past for, you know, my other white people have done in the
world. Well, sure buddy.
But in an organization where you're working and representing
that organization, you are responsible for that
organization's past engagement and how that's it, you're
representative of that organization.
(20:45):
So in business you are and you need to show what's changed.
You need to say what you're doing differently.
And so for example, if you're dealing on some really sensitive
topic around maybe it's around compensation or it's around
trying to get a settlement on something, then you need to
(21:06):
state what was heard, what we did, what we didn't get right
before you even get down to the details.
Now for ABA that's quite heavy and you and you have an
engagement team behind you doingthat if you needed to, I
wouldn't expect ABA to do that. However, you need to be part of
that solution and get the right resources around you #8 is
(21:28):
around Co design and don't just consult.
So consultation often infers that we've already decided,
whereas Co design brings people on solution creation.
You want to facilitate sessions with stakeholders, you want to
ideate, you want to do prototypes.
And that's really important. So you might layer on different
(21:50):
cultural views or dimensions on top of a base process because
you shouldn't have 500 differentprocesses if the base process is
appropriate to be common. But you might have steps that
only take place or remove steps if and that specific cultural
context. So I've done it.
I've seen it done really badly where you've literally got a
(22:12):
different process, completely different process per persona.
And that's not how you do it. It's about being efficient, but
also being appropriate, right? Process efficiency, lots of
things in a different lens here.So you need to really think
about that. And I would say that my
experience Co designing with teachers, with career planning
(22:38):
experts, with people that more may be involved in a restructure
and I was facilitating what theydid or capturing their job so
that it could be automated. Doing code design is so
important and even in those challenging environments, OK.
And you get a much better outcome from that.
(22:58):
People generally will want to provide and be part of the
process if they realize that their information and their
voice is being heard and being documented.
OK, that's my lived experience #9 is to adapt time frames to
match these processes. The idea that something has to
(23:18):
be done by a certain date and it's not shiftable can actually
be like not true in the greater cultural and historical context.
OK. And you usually find that big
decisions, there's flexibility and deadlines and they respect
the rhythms of engagement and you need to really ask the
(23:39):
question what time is going to work for this process.
So if you are working on some big new, a health engagement
project for, I guess, Primary Health services for a certain
cultural demographic specifically with certain needs
on top of maybe the base needs, then that engagement needs to be
(24:02):
thought about in terms of time frames and ultimately want to
uplift health outcomes over time.
It's not a three month thing. It's not a year thing.
It's probably a 10 year cycle here and it's probably been
neglected for 50 years. And #10 is to celebrate shared
wins and culturally meaningful ways.
(24:25):
Closing the loop builds goodwilland acknowledges contribution
and kind of acknowledges the intertwine of different cultures
and input. And so you should share results
at community events after a blessing, if that makes sense.
Maybe provide a framed copy of key deliverables, share a hot
meal or a cup of tea. Maybe you could like embody the
(24:53):
when in some kind of digital form.
It might not be just a digital project completed for some of
the cultures you deal with, and it shouldn't be for you either.
I would say so embodying the launch, if you like, into a
homecoming, into a, a blessing, a new day, a new world is so
(25:16):
important. I mean, I've seen in New
Zealand, we almost, there are names given to projects that
that's seeked out or we get a, there's a Maori advisor asked to
come up with a name for a project and to be blessed with
the name. Now that that's culturally
significant, why give a project a multi name and body and and
(25:37):
more of the Eastern way of looking at the world as a
holistic place and then at the end just close the project.
It doesn't make sense. We should acknowledge that
engagement, the blessing, the intertwining of culture and the
wind is something substantial. And that actually is probably
more joyous in these types of projects.
(26:00):
OK. And it's actually quite
rewarding to be involved in these types of projects.
So those are my 10 strategies for engaging with diverse
indigenous and culturally different groups as a VA.
The key thread across all of this is be curious, be
respectful, be willing to learn,and adapt.
(26:21):
Thanks for tuning in. I'll see you next week.
Have you ever walked into a roomwhere no one looks like you,
thinks like you, or even wants you there?
Have you faced a wall of silencefrom stakeholders you're
supposed to be engaging, or feltthat no matter how good your
questions are, something's left unsaid?
(00:22):
This episode's for you because business analysts.
Our job isn't just about collecting requirements, it's
about building bridges. And when those bridges cross
cultural, historical, Indigenousrights and deeply held values,
it's no longer business as usual.
(00:45):
So how do you engage with diverse, Indigenous and
culturally different groups without causing harm, without
missing nuances, and without falling into the old traps of
consultation theatre? The Better Business Analysis
Institute presents the Better Business Analysis Podcast with
(01:06):
Kingsman Walsh. You had a car tour and welcome
back to the Better Business Analysis Podcast.
And I'm Benjamin Walsh, your host.
And today we are going to be talking about one of the most
important episodes of Recorded. We're going to be talking about
how business analysts engage with diverse, indigenous and
(01:28):
culturally different groups, something we're all going to
face whether we realize it or not, or whether or not we have
pre held beliefs about those groups.
I'm going to give you 10 actionable strategies with real
world examples unpacking the how, the why and the what and
when for each. Let's start with #1 and that is
(01:51):
to start with cultural humility,not cultural competence.
This is something people get wrong and I live in New Zealand.
We have indigenous people, the multi people who were here much
before the Western Europeans, they came later.
And we have some deep rooted culture that flows through New
(02:14):
Zealand and it's been built on what we call the Treaty of
Waitangi, which is a founding document of this country.
And this is quite recent. So unlike other countries where
maybe they're indigenous people are much smaller, have only
recently been kind of acknowledged.
New Zealand is not like that. We have a very clear around the
(02:38):
fact that multi people are the owners of this land and that we
need to work together for a common good in Altera, New
Zealand. Now in saying that, it does not
mean that as a European, I'm a white European first generation
New Zealander, that I should be just mimicking multiculture for
(02:59):
life benefits. So you won't know everything as
a business analyst, right? The answer isn't know
everything. Yes, educate, but we'll get
there and that's OK. Cultural humility acknowledges
that you are a learner, not an expert in someone else's lived
experience. Shift your mindset from knowing
(03:22):
the culture to being open to learning.
And when I say learning, I mean actually taking actionable steps
to learn from your very first meeting or discovery call.
Make this explicit and introductions.
Let people guide you about how they would like to be addressed.
Acknowledge the limits of your knowledge.
(03:46):
I've worked quite a few times actually within Maori
organization and with Maori stakeholders.
OK, I'm just picking that as an example because I live in New
Zealand now. Rather than assuming what Team
Kanga applied, which is culturaltraditions in Maori and around
engagement and welcoming and allthe protocols in terms of
(04:09):
engaging with NTR Maori, I askedif me or a katakia was
appropriate to opening meetings.And a katakia is is almost a
welcoming and a Mickey Fuckito is talking about my background.
(04:29):
And I only know this through my kids, through experience, and
through learning. And that small question builds
trust because then I can go awayand I can do it.
I've seen the flip side. I'm working currently in an
organization that very much embraces multiculture and sees
multidim as an important elementof New Zealand, which I
(04:52):
completely personally agree with.
However, it can get to a point where people feel as though they
need to, like I said, mimic multiculture as opposed to go
along with the journey and learn.
So it can actually be sometimes embarrassing.
Post to those around and to the people you're engaging with.
(05:17):
If you are trying to, I guess, replicate exactly or mirror
traditions, which may not make sense for you to do.
So just be really careful of that.
One note on .1, which I've addedlater, which is you should be
(05:37):
working with people from different cultures and if you're
engaging with stakeholders from that culture, it would make
sense to use your experience. That's why we should have people
who are cultural ambassadors from our team.
So if you don't know everything,maybe there's someone on your
team that can guide you through it on to #2 You need to invest
(05:59):
time in relationship building before problem solving.
Yes, I give you practical tips and I don't sometimes talk about
all the soft stuff. Relationship building is number
one for ABA. OK, it's almost a given.
Some cultures value relationships much more than
(06:20):
solving the problem or the task.Skipping this step creates a
trust defect and that can never be recovered.
So allocate intentional time to connect as people first human
centred. When working for the T Co Hunger
National Trust, which was the trust that looked after early
childhood centres that are within Moldedom in New Zealand,
(06:45):
I had to engage with a lot of stakeholders, including Co
hunger centres across New Zealand, which had different
views of the trust. Definitely.
But we're uncertain of the crown, the government of New
Zealand, which is basically built on the the UK European
model, which were the kind of settlers here.
(07:06):
And so building that trust and having a cup of tea and sitting
down and spending just an hour about my background, where I've
come from, being honest about it.
And I'm not trying to make anything up as out like I'm so
experienced in this area. I just talked about where I've
come from. I'm first generation New
Zealand. That hour was critical in
(07:28):
getting honest answers later andit took a few sessions.
This is number 3. It's a really good one.
It's to use culturally appropriate facilitation
methods. So some groups won't respond to
Western style brainstorming or dominant speaker dynamics.
(07:49):
It actually just doesn't work. And you can think about culture
there in terms of literally cultures around the country, but
sort of around the world, but also within organizations,
actually subcultures. So think about that too.
You need to adapt your facilitation to match what the
cultural protocols are in that organization and those people.
(08:11):
Anytime you run workshop, Co design or engagement sessions,
you should be thinking about this and you can use tools like
talking circles or in New Zealand and multidim is a great
way of just talking like a talking circle and it allows
everyone to speak in turn. No one interrupts, people just
listen. And and what's ironic is at the
(08:34):
National Trust, this was very much done every morning.
And it was so clear to me that in a Western society we have
adopted that as stand ups. That's almost the equivalent,
but I guess as opposed to a stand ups, we're kind of the
loudest person talks or people working on stuff and Modi them.
Everyone talks if they would like to talk, which I think is
(08:56):
fantastic. And it's amazing how some of
these more Eastern views have come into Western, I guess,
rituals and traditions we now adopt.
I've had engagement sessions where we have literally allowed
everyone to talk around the group.
(09:18):
So each voice is heard and it's almost like a virtual talking
stick. And I will acknowledge the
person and I will say their nameand I'll learn their name.
And I'm terrible with that. And I'll read out and I'll ask
them their name and I'll say, look, you haven't contributed.
Would you like to contribute anything?
Anything's fine. Oh, no, no, no, I don't, I, I
don't wanna say anything 'cause I think, you know, I don't
(09:40):
really have too many ideas. And you've got to allow that
person time to speak. So I'm right now your mindset
might be in a room of different cultures, but again, there's
other elements you should think about in terms of neurodiverse
people. So people with different types
of autism, they will be introverted and they will not
(10:03):
speak. So you've got to give them a
time and a place to do so. And their insight is generally
gonna be fantastic if you can get them on the side because
they're really thinking about things.
And you know, that's a generalization, but make sure
that you are giving everyone a chance to speak.
Really important, especially forthose people in IT.
(10:24):
And it is to translate technicallanguage into accessible terms.
OK, technical jargon can be a barrier to engagement,
especially across cultures or languages.
People just won't understand what it is.
Speaks simple English and English is a complicated
language. We have words that mean same
words that mean different thingsand all the all the rest of it.
(10:46):
So breakdown business process and IT terms the plain language
and do that you know during elicitation validation and sign
off and test your definitions, your explanations with
non-technical users 1st through diagrams and that's why visuals
(11:07):
is so important. So I have many a time replaced
my diagrams so they make sense and made them simplified to a
point that I feel like they're they're less valuable.
But it allows people to understand what they are.
OK. And that applies to different
culture or just different mindsets or even people of with
(11:27):
different time. So management don't have much
time. So you've got to change your way
you communicate with them, whichwe've talked about before #5 is
to include cultural values and goals and your persona, right?
So if I'm going to design a system for all New Zealanders
and 10 to 12% of the population are Maori, well, and my product
(11:53):
is, is aimed at that demographicarea.
Well, well, firstly one, I should be hiring people that
know what they're talking about in that area and engaging and
having a Maori advisor on board.But also my personas, my
standard personas, they need to talk about the motivation shaped
by culture, history and community context, enriched
(12:18):
personas with cultural, social and political factors early
during customer research and design.
And you can ask questions about the person's background, the
kind of, I guess their EWI, which is their tribe in New
(12:39):
Zealand and, and create those. Now I'm going to give you 2
interesting stories here. Stories is when I work for the
Royal Commission here in New Zealand and the abuse and care
inquiry, which was around terrible things that had
happened to people and our kind of foster system and the
(13:00):
national system and religious institutions.
And it was terrible. We looked at all types of abuse
and we had survivors, of course.And we ended up having witnesses
and it was taken to court. And that Commission has since
finished its inquiry and it, youknow, it's, it's not the best
(13:21):
reading anyway. I was doing a lot of the
customer journey mapping for that inquiry and a lot of the
system work. And one of the interesting areas
is we created personas for how survivors and witnesses may
engage with the Commission. And I really wanted to make them
(13:43):
culturally appropriate because even though Maori make up a
smaller percentage of the population, New Zealand, they
were by far the most affected through this terrible abuse in
here. Now, that meant I created
personas that reflected that culture.
(14:06):
And during a design session, oneof the Modi advisors there
raised or challenged me about a persona and said that they felt
that the persona was not a true reflection of multiculture and
seemed to be lip service and really almost inappropriate to
(14:27):
use. What was fascinating is that I
had actually worked with throughan advisor and with a specific
instance of a survivor who allowed us to use the details,
their story. That's what we did.
Now, I was hugely mortified in the workshop.
(14:51):
There were lots of other stakeholders in it.
It was a sign off session and this was a huge lesson for me,
which meant that when you engagewith culture, it's not a one way
street. I had done what I thought was
the right thing. I hadn't taken this one person
who was obviously going to be looking at it from their lived
(15:13):
experience and I hadn't let themknow this information.
So their assumption that I had made this up or, you know, tried
my best was not true. You know, it was really a
survivor that we we used and asked to use their information.
And it was just ironic because the name was quite a, an easy to
say name and some people thoughtmaybe, you know, we'd made it as
(15:36):
a token Modi survivor now. So that was a mistake was one me
not engaging with this individual to beforehand who
really had skin in the game and probably had seen this many
times before and thought, oh, here we go.
But it also highlights the reverse.
(15:57):
People had seen me as this male,you know, 40 year old man who
was European and that maybe thisperson had shortcutted the
process and hadn't followed tickon that hadn't been culturally
appropriate. And maybe it was the fact that I
(16:17):
was even presenting it. So it's a two way St. might have
some preconceived ideas about someone's culture and they might
have some preconceived ideas about how you take their
culture. OK, so just be open to the fact
that that can happen and learn from your mistakes.
It's be patient with consensus driven decision making.
(16:42):
I'm going to jump to a completely different culture in
a minute, but some cultures prioritize collective decision
making over individual authority.
I've been here. Allow space and time for the
consensus to emerge during approval sign offs and decision
gates. Bake that into your project
plan. Ask who else needs to be
(17:05):
consulted before a decision is confirmed.
Build longer feedback loops intoyour plan.
I'm going to give you an exampleoutside of the New Zealand
context. And that's when I worked for
Sony Ericsson Global and I had ateam, was quite young at the
time, in my mid 20s. And I actually had a technical
(17:25):
team that reported to me in London, Sweden, just outside of
Malmo, if you know where that is.
And the team itself was fantastic.
I learned quite a lot about culture in terms of making or
asking people to work till 5:00 PM, when in Sweden people finish
(17:50):
at 4:00 PM and they have lunch at 11:00.
Generally, this is a generalization for that
organization, but the fact that it was set, those workers had
those rights. And I ended up almost putting
someone at tears and their wife calling me because we were going
live. And I asked this person to do an
extra hour till 5:00 PM because I was flying in and out and out
(18:11):
at 7. And I just asked them if they
could do that and it was a big deal.
That isn't my lesson, but it's an interesting story.
My lesson here is that in Sweden, the default decision
making at Sony Ericsson was consensus.
It was so difficult to get a decision made around
implementing a change managementprocess within this new IT
(18:34):
system we had. Yes, it was global when yes,
people need to be consulted. But ultimately, when I took it
to the leadership team and learned, it was so difficult to
get consensus and it was very much like working with a a whole
lot of engineers who needed to know everything before they can
(18:56):
make a decision. And it was painful.
And ironically, Sony Ericsson identified that and used to have
stories around the Japanese element of their business very
culturally kind of generalized Sweden and in London, where the
central office got moved to while I worked there and, and
the, and the, the messaging was,well, in the UK, we can make
(19:19):
decisions. I don't know if that's true or
not, but that was the rumour that went around the
organization #7 is to recognize historical trauma and
consultation fatigue happens often, especially in this
country, but I'm sure it can happen in other countries.
Indigenous and marginalized groups may approach engagement
(19:42):
with justified skepticism and just engage disengagement.
They've just been here. They won't they might have a
perception you're we're not honouring past experiences.
We need to be transparent and weneed to be accountable for our
(20:03):
past actions on sometimes on behalf of and you need to do
this at the stage of engagement.So if I'm working for a
government department, I represent government.
OK, It's not. People can get hung up on this
and you get a lot of. Unfair alt right kind of
propaganda saying, oh, you know,I'm not responsible for what my
(20:25):
past for, you know, my other white people have done in the
world. Well, sure buddy.
But in an organization where you're working and representing
that organization, you are responsible for that
organization's past engagement and how that's it, you're
representative of that organization.
(20:45):
So in business you are and you need to show what's changed.
You need to say what you're doing differently.
And so for example, if you're dealing on some really sensitive
topic around maybe it's around compensation or it's around
trying to get a settlement on something, then you need to
(21:06):
state what was heard, what we did, what we didn't get right
before you even get down to the details.
Now for ABA that's quite heavy and you and you have an
engagement team behind you doingthat if you needed to, I
wouldn't expect ABA to do that. However, you need to be part of
that solution and get the right resources around you #8 is
(21:28):
around Co design and don't just consult.
So consultation often infers that we've already decided,
whereas Co design brings people on solution creation.
You want to facilitate sessions with stakeholders, you want to
ideate, you want to do prototypes.
And that's really important. So you might layer on different
(21:50):
cultural views or dimensions on top of a base process because
you shouldn't have 500 differentprocesses if the base process is
appropriate to be common. But you might have steps that
only take place or remove steps if and that specific cultural
context. So I've done it.
I've seen it done really badly where you've literally got a
(22:12):
different process, completely different process per persona.
And that's not how you do it. It's about being efficient, but
also being appropriate, right? Process efficiency, lots of
things in a different lens here.So you need to really think
about that. And I would say that my
experience Co designing with teachers, with career planning
(22:38):
experts, with people that more may be involved in a restructure
and I was facilitating what theydid or capturing their job so
that it could be automated. Doing code design is so
important and even in those challenging environments, OK.
And you get a much better outcome from that.
(22:58):
People generally will want to provide and be part of the
process if they realize that their information and their
voice is being heard and being documented.
OK, that's my lived experience #9 is to adapt time frames to
match these processes. The idea that something has to
(23:18):
be done by a certain date and it's not shiftable can actually
be like not true in the greater cultural and historical context.
OK. And you usually find that big
decisions, there's flexibility and deadlines and they respect
the rhythms of engagement and you need to really ask the
(23:39):
question what time is going to work for this process.
So if you are working on some big new, a health engagement
project for, I guess, Primary Health services for a certain
cultural demographic specifically with certain needs
on top of maybe the base needs, then that engagement needs to be
(24:02):
thought about in terms of time frames and ultimately want to
uplift health outcomes over time.
It's not a three month thing. It's not a year thing.
It's probably a 10 year cycle here and it's probably been
neglected for 50 years. And #10 is to celebrate shared
wins and culturally meaningful ways.
(24:25):
Closing the loop builds goodwilland acknowledges contribution
and kind of acknowledges the intertwine of different cultures
and input. And so you should share results
at community events after a blessing, if that makes sense.
Maybe provide a framed copy of key deliverables, share a hot
meal or a cup of tea. Maybe you could like embody the
(24:53):
when in some kind of digital form.
It might not be just a digital project completed for some of
the cultures you deal with, and it shouldn't be for you either.
I would say so embodying the launch, if you like, into a
homecoming, into a, a blessing, a new day, a new world is so
(25:16):
important. I mean, I've seen in New
Zealand, we almost, there are names given to projects that
that's seeked out or we get a, there's a Maori advisor asked to
come up with a name for a project and to be blessed with
the name. Now that that's culturally
significant, why give a project a multi name and body and and
(25:37):
more of the Eastern way of looking at the world as a
holistic place and then at the end just close the project.
It doesn't make sense. We should acknowledge that
engagement, the blessing, the intertwining of culture and the
wind is something substantial. And that actually is probably
more joyous in these types of projects.
(26:00):
OK. And it's actually quite
rewarding to be involved in these types of projects.
So those are my 10 strategies for engaging with diverse
indigenous and culturally different groups as a VA.
The key thread across all of this is be curious, be
respectful, be willing to learn,and adapt.
(26:21):
Thanks for tuning in. I'll see you next week.
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