May 15, 2025 • 50 mins
Katherine Martín-Fisher is joined by Leslie Brown, who shares her unique journey from psychology to HR, highlighting what fuels her motivation. They delve into crucial topics such as employee rights, well-being, and the role of leadership in shaping company culture. Leslie discusses the impact of HR on managing micromanagement and handling workplace discrimination, emphasizing the significance of understanding employment contracts. They explore professional communication regarding company policy concerns and navigating a rapidly changing job market. Leslie offers advice on self-promotion and shares her personal aspirations. The episode concludes with guidance on career transitions and how to reach Leslie for career coaching.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
I am Katherine Martín-Fisher, and I helpbusiness owners who have lost their vision
because they're struggling with cash flow,sales, marketing, which also affects their
company culture.
By showing them to implement proven systemsthat increase their revenue by 30% in 90 days,
and this allowing them to reignite the passionand that big dream that they started with.
(00:28):
So the reason that I started this podcast wasto celebrate businesses who have overcome
adversity and have come out on the other sideof it.
And I want you to know that you are not alone.
Good afternoon.
This is Katherine, your host with the BeyondBusiness Podcast.
I'm so excited to introduce you to Leslie Brownhere today.
(00:51):
She is unashamedly excited about connecting thecommunity to the resources that they need.
She's a highly motivated HR professional with15 years in the field and a strong background
in employee relations, performance management,compliance, mediation, leadership, coaching,
and change management.
(01:13):
Additionally, she's a certified professionalrecognized by the Society for Human Resource
Management.
HR is more than a job for Leslie.
It's a series of thankless tasks that provideintrinsic value to those who truly care about
the livelihood of others.
But she's more than an HR professional.
(01:34):
She's a coach, a mentor, a teacher, acounselor, a peer, and a leader.
She accepts the challenge every day.
Well, Leslie, thank you so much for being onour show.
Thank you for having me, Katherine.
I appreciate it.
So, you know, Leslie, that was quite a bit, andI love that you have this love for what you do.
(02:00):
I would love for you to share with our audiencea little bit about what led you onto the path
and the journey of what you do today.
Well, I actually initially started out going toschool for psychology, and I got my bachelor's
degree in psychology.
I fully believed that I was going to be a childand family therapist.
(02:23):
And when I graduated college, I got into thefield and quickly learned that there is a lot
of emotional work that the therapist has to doon themselves because it is not an easy task
when you are helping others who have mentalhealth issues, and it can take a toll on
(02:48):
yourself, especially when you're dealing withchildren.
So it was a bit challenging for me; a bit isnot describing it.
It was extremely challenging for me to thepoint where I ultimately just decided that that
was not the path for me.
So I took a break, and I started working just aregular entry-level nine-to-five job and
(03:11):
decided that I wanted to go back to school toget my master's in HR management.
And what connected me there was, you know, Itook some classes in undergrad
industrial-organizational psychology, whichreally talks a lot about the psychology of the
workplace and how companies build environmentsand engage their employees and how the business
(03:33):
is run when it only survives because of thepeople that it employs.
And so I found a connection between psychologyand HR.
And so I went back, got my master's in HRmanagement.
And as soon as I got my master's, I wentstraight into HR, and I've been in the field
(03:53):
ever since.
And it's been very rewarding.
It gives me the best of both worlds.
I get to put on my psychologist hat, and then Ialso get to wear my HR professional hat.
So yeah, I absolutely love what I do.
How do you stay motivated to keep learning?
Because obviously with HR especially, there areconstant new laws and ways in which to keep
(04:20):
compliant.
What motivates you to keep learning?
It's the constant change.
And it is the idea that things are happeningaround me and around people that you feel like
you can't control, but you actually can controlthem if you have the knowledge base and if you
(04:44):
have the tools you need to be able to empoweryourself to address it or even in some
instances, just completely change yourenvironment.
And in HR, you're correct.
Things change so rapidly.
I mean, every year, you know, there's somethingnew happening that impacts the world of HR.
(05:07):
Our industry is led by our environment.
You know, whether that be any new legislatureor the economy itself, we deal with everything.
COVID was a big thing for HR professionals.
We had to learn, unlearn a lot of the old waysof doing things, and then learn what the new
(05:31):
world was like.
And there was a lot of mental health aspectsthere.
There were a lot of financial wellness aspectsthere, physical wellness aspects there.
And so we approached HR from a differentperspective.
And so I think the challenge that you face inHR on a regular basis, that's what motivates me
because every day is something new.
(05:54):
Every year it's something new.
And I don't want to be that person that isgiving bad advice.
I care too much about people and their ownwell-being and their success to do them a
disservice.
I love that you shared that.
It seems to me that having the psychologybackground is probably helpful in what you do
(06:17):
in HR.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
What would you say are some of the rights thatemployees don't often know that they have?
I think for the employee who comes to workevery day and they have a very challenging
manager who at times can be disrespectful orcondescending or make comments because the
(06:42):
environment might be a little morelackadaisical about discriminatory actions or
language.
Oftentimes your average worker does not knowthat these things are indeed illegal.
And as an employee, you have a right to speakup for yourself.
They don't know what process to follow.
(07:04):
A lot of companies surprisingly don't have away for employees to really report concerns or
they communicate that they have a method, buttheir method is faulty, which kind of detracts
from employees feeling comfortable choosingthat route.
So I would just say the biggest things for mein terms of wanting people to know are know
(07:33):
your worth.
If it doesn't feel right, if it doesn't soundgood, if it's not encouraging, it's not right.
It's not right.
And you absolutely can speak up.
You can stand up for yourself, and you don'talways have to sit back and settle for what the
company is giving you or what that particularmanager is giving you.
(07:54):
You can seek outside help.
So, you know, in your experience, do you thinkthat most companies truly actually prioritize
their employees' well-being over more of thecheck-the-box kind of mentality?
I think that in today's culture, we've gottenaway from engagement.
(08:16):
I think it's still important, and a lot ofcompanies still talk about it, but with the
choice to discontinue DEI programs, a lot ofthese decisions that companies are making, it
really changes the perspective that theemployee has about how the company feels about
(08:37):
them.
I mean, even at the customer base, a lot ofcustomers don't shop at certain places anymore
because they've made choices to discontinueDEI.
And one thing that I've learned over the years,you know, whether it's with your customers or
your employees, I mean, both populations areequally important because the business wouldn't
(08:57):
survive without the customer or employee.
And if you sell a product or a service and itis not like your policies and procedures and
how you operate is not indicative of how youtreat your customer base.
(09:18):
And it's not inclusive in terms of youremployees, like to me, it's a contradiction.
And so I think after COVID and now with so manythings changing with our current
administration, I just think that business ingeneral is more about the product and
(09:41):
maintaining solvency versus giving back to theemployee or, you know, making the employee feel
valued.
Talking about career advancement, you hear moreabout layoffs than you do about career
enrichment.
I think, unfortunately, that's the world we,well, that's the world we live in in this
(10:04):
country.
I can't speak about any other country.
So I think we have to take a stand, and we haveto say both are equally important.
You have to survive as a company, but you alsohave to pay attention to your employees.
You also have to give them just as much valueas you give your customers.
(10:24):
So I do have a question about that because oneof the things we so this weekend, we're going
to a business summit.
And one of the things that I will say in theecosystem I'm obviously a 10x business coach,
and so one of the things that we're actually Imean, this is like a mission is to teach
employers and company head leaders of a companyhow to treat your people, how to train your
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people, teach your people, grow your people.
And the more people that know how to actuallybuild their businesses that way are they're
gonna be building more sustainable businessesthat grow, but they don't just grow and benefit
from the growth.
Their people grow and benefit from the growth.
So although I know that right now, as there hasbeen a shift in the administration and lots of
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things that are happening, I think that ifeverybody got on board with really caring more
about their people and growing their people,but also valuing them, that there will be less
less so when I think of HR, this is the reasonwhy I'm saying this.
Unless that they unless there is a place inwhich for people to win
(11:43):
Mhmm.
To grow, to scale themselves in life, not justthe company, then all of a sudden now you're
all in the game to win together.
And then you're also making a difference inyour community.
You're able to take because, obviously, thehappier people are, the more excited they are
to go to work without being in fear mode ofbeing, you know, let go because of whatever.
(12:10):
I mean, when there is when there is a teamatmosphere where they're all working together,
do you find that in those types of atmospheres,there's less there's less fear on the
employees' part?
There's obviously accountability.
There's always gonna be accountability.
There's always, you know, there's things thateverybody's—I mean, obviously, everybody's in
(12:31):
business to make money.
There's a reason why you started a business.
So as an HR person, where you're a mentor, acoach, a leader in, you know, that part of the
company, are you able to help in implementingthings like that in a company with your role?
Absolutely, yes.
And it's more about the influence for HRbecause it used to be HR was more
(12:59):
administrative.
We come into a company and we have policies, wehave procedures and we give guidance, but
ultimately it's the company or it's themanagement team's decision, which is still the
case now.
But we, as an industry, are now saying, we wanta seat at the table and we want to be strategic
(13:24):
partners, not administrators.
And with that comes the bigger push forinfluence.
So, when you have that CEO who is apparentlyvery intelligent enough to get a position as a
CEO and they know the ins and outs of thebusiness, but they're not the best people
(13:47):
leader, that is the person that as an HRprofessional, you want to get in front of and
you want to give them that guidance.
You want to paint that picture for them so thatthey understand and they walk away from every
conversation knowing the impact of theirlanguage, their behavior, their presence in the
company.
(14:08):
And they understand the gravity of their roleas a people leader, not just, you know, a CEO
of a business line or of the company itself.
So the influence that we have is extremelyimportant, and we leverage it every day.
That's that's awesome.
I love that.
(14:29):
Are you so let's say, you know, because, youknow, you guys are in HR and your job is to
pretty much make sure that your people aretaken care of and that there are things that
you're kind of the go-to in between.
Well, how how do you handle when you have amanager that might be a micromanager that is
(14:49):
kind of stepping over the line, not realizingthat they're not managing in the proper way?
Because really and this is just even fromexperience.
Your people do better, and your people will bewilling to jump through hoops for you the more
that they're appreciated, valued, and shownthat versus the micromanaging and being kind of
(15:10):
held back from their ability to be able toproduce in a different manner.
How do you help the manager overcome that forthem?
Because that's almost like a training in ofitself.
It definitely is.
And leadership development, I'm doing it rightnow.
Yes, I'm putting together a whole series forour leaders.
(15:33):
So I would say that it is a training withinitself.
And a part of that training, again, I go backto painting that picture.
Number one, you have to introduce emotionalintelligence to that leader.
In emotional intelligence, a lot of people getthat misconstrued thinking that, oh, it's just
(15:53):
my ability to be able to read other people.
No, it's more so your ability to read yourselfand to understand who you are as a person, as a
leader, what are your strengths?
What are your own weaknesses?
And once you recognize your weaknesses, whichmight be maybe I'm a bit too direct and I don't
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understand all the different personalities onmy team.
And I have laser focus on how I want thingsdone, which then can lead to that micromanaging
manager.
And so through emotional intelligence and doingthe work, you recognize that about yourself.
So now you can adjust your responses to thedifferent personalities on your team.
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You can adjust your language.
You can understand when you're being a littlebit too direct, and you might even be able to
more positively receive that feedback or evencriticism from your team, your peers, or even
as a manager from your own manager.
And so I think that's the first step is reallydiving deep into emotional intelligence.
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But I also think that again, painting thatpicture because sometimes people don't
understand the gravity of their actions.
And for me, I think I've gotten the mostpositive outcomes when I explain to leaders
that you can be personally liable if thecompany is sued.
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And don't think that just because you work fora company and maybe an employee sued them and
you are still with the company, you're stillworking for them, you're safe.
You're not.
Your personal assets, your 401(k)s, your home,your car, all of those things can be up for
grabs depending on the situation, depending onthe courts.
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That's not a place you want to put yourself in.
So it's easier to do the work in yourselfupfront than to face losing everything on the
back end.
That's actually really great advice.
Because I don't think that people reallyrealize that that can happen.
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No, they don't.
They don't, which is why that's typically
my go-to point when I'm talking to leadersabout harassment or sexual harassment or
discrimination, like some of the big powerfulhot topics, you don't want to find yourself on
the negative end of a legal battle.
(18:30):
And just because this person sues the companydoesn't mean that it can't sue the company and
then sue you personally.
And the average manager does not know that.
Well, it would be good to have you on thecompanies to then to inform them of that.
How should what would you say how shouldsomeone handle if they're feeling that they're
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being discriminated against and treatedunfairly at work?
I think number one, if it's not documented, itdidn't happen.
So as an employee, I always encourage, andreally on both sides, leadership and
non-leadership, I encourage people in theworkplace to have your conversations, but then
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send emails to memorialize what we discussed.
And especially for the employee who feels thatthere was an inappropriate comment made or
something was done and it was retaliatory ordiscriminatory, there are steps that you can
take.
And the steps typically start with address thesituation immediately.
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Don't let it linger.
And sometimes people are a little bit afraidof, you know, what are the ramifications if I
address that?
So that might be why they wait.
I understand that.
But it has to be addressed or it's never goingto change.
So your best bet is to address it the firsttime it happens and really clear the air.
(20:02):
Maybe it was a miscommunication.
Maybe it wasn't a miscommunication.
And maybe you just need to put that person onnotice that, hey, I caught that, it is
unacceptable.
And you can do that and coach up to yourmanager and say, I'm sorry, that comment was
very discriminatory.
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I take personal offense to that.
So going forward, I want us to have a betterworking relationship.
I want us to be professional.
So I would hope that this would be the firstand the last time that you make this type of
comment to me and allow it to rest, butdocument it.
And I definitely would document it in the formof an email to that person so that you can
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demonstrate if you have to pull back on thatemail later for any kind of legal reason, or if
you're taking it to HR, that you can show thatthis did indeed happen because I documented it
and I sent an email to you.
And whether or not that person chooses torespond is on them, but you now have something
to say, if this didn't happen, if I wasn'tbeing truthful about this happening, why would
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I then send the email directly to you?
And it's even better if that person respondsand it would be best if that person were to
respond and say, you know what, you'reabsolutely right.
I apologize.
That will never happen again.
Great.
Great.
Now you both have documentation to support,yes, this did happen.
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Yes, this person received an apology.
I took accountability for my behavior and Icommitted to never having this type of
situation happen again.
I like that.
When would you say is, when should someone goto HR versus doing it with the manager
themselves?
It's okay if the recipient of the bad behavioris not comfortable addressing it head-on.
(21:59):
That's what HR is for.
There are times when HR has to be the mediator.
That's what we do.
It would be okay if that person were to decide,hey, I don't want to send this email.
I don't even want to address it with mymanager.
I want to go directly to HR and tell them whattranspired.
And then at that point, HR would kind of takethe lead and talk with the manager.
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Again, get a commitment for this type ofbehavior to never happen again.
The way that we might handle that situation,depending on the egregiousness of the matter,
it might result in that person no longer beingwith the company, or it might result in that
person being written up, or that person beingenrolled in your next emotional intelligence or
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sensitivity, anti-discrimination training.
But there are various ways to handle eachsituation.
And it's okay if the employee decides that theydon't want to take that on directly.
They want the support of HR.
Now what would you say people should knowbefore signing an employment contract for a
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non-compete, let's say, agreement?
What should they know in advance prior tosigning that?
First of all, read it.
Never sign anything that you have not fullyread.
If you are in a position to have the document,because it's a legal document.
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If you're in a position to have an attorneyreview it, do so.
If not, it's okay.
Ask questions.
Ask as many questions as it takes for you tofully understand what you are signing.
And the reason I say this is because once yoursignature is on that document, you are held to
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that standard.
And that means if you break that contractsomewhere down the line, you cannot claim
ignorance because it was given to you and it'sin writing and you signed it.
So the expectation is that, again, read it,don't sign it if you don't agree, ask as many
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questions as it takes for you to fullyunderstand.
And you do have the power to negotiate certainthings.
So with me saying that, companies sometimeshave a standard non-compete and it at times is
a part of like their onboarding packet oronboarding documentation.
And it comes along with your employee handbookand all these other things.
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So sometimes you kind of miss it.
However, if you know that you have otherinterests, you know that you provide a
specialty service or you are in a position tobe sought after by other companies.
That is where you need to ask those questionsupfront and be very transparent with whoever
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the hiring manager is, or just whoever isreviewing your employment at that time.
Be very upfront and open so that, again,they're giving you this contract and you are
giving them all the information.
Both parties need to understand and be on thesame page about what we're doing and what the
way forward looks like.
(25:18):
And let's say, so this is one thing that I feelthat people do seem to have a challenge with at
times is when you're working for a company thathas policies in place, how does an employee
push back on, when I say I mean safely pushback on or raise concerns of things that may
(25:39):
not be in alignment with their livedexperiences?
Just communication.
Professional communication will never steer youwrong.
I think people lose credibility internally andif they pursue any kind of legal action or any
kind of action with an external agency, theylose credibility when you fly off the handle,
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when you start using profanity, because thenpeople stop listening to you.
They only see your demeanor.
They only hear the language and they're notgetting the message.
So I would just say to that employee, bemindful of your approach, be mindful of your
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communication, be mindful of your bodylanguage.
And that is not an easy thing to do, especiallyif it's something that really bothers you or
angers you.
And it's okay to take a moment to collect yourthoughts.
I've even recommended for some people to writeeverything down, get all of your feelings out
on paper, get all of your anger out on paper,and then write it over again, but write it in a
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professional voice.
And if you have to write it three or fourtimes, then that's fine.
If you have to read it five or six times toyourself, that's fine.
Prepare yourself for that meeting, thatconversation.
Don't just walk in and begin to talk from anemotional place.
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That's really good advice actually.
And even in life, that's always, that's a greatway to do it.
Write it, write it again.
And actually, that helps to diffuse theemotion.
Of course.
I can't tell you how many times I started outresponding to emails and then said, delete,
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delete, delete.
And I had to write them over maybe three orfour times before I actually sent it.
So it's not an easy thing to do.
It's definitely easier said than done, but it'sworth it in the long run if you just take the
time to really be very articulate in what youare trying to convey.
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What would you say are trends that you areseeing in hiring in the workplace regarding
like culture and how professionals whatprofessionals should know about?
I think it is right now, there are more peoplewithout jobs than with.
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And so competition is thick.
And there are a lot of companies who are taskedwith really just, they're between a rock and a
hard place with selecting candidates.
They have to actually say, okay, all thingsbeing equal, which one has the advanced degree
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versus the bachelor's degree versus no degree?
This person has all this experience, and eventhough you're not supposed to consider certain
things like age or gender, let's be real, thosethings come up depending on the industry.
So, I think for HR, especially with hiring,it's extremely important for all of our HR
(29:08):
professionals to have a good pulse on thecompany's hiring process and procedures, make
sure that your hiring managers are regularlygoing through some sort of training.
They know in the interview process, what is asafe question?
What do you ask?
What do you avoid asking?
What are the illegal questions to ask?
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And I think it's also important for, as an HRteam, for us to be prepared to receive some
negative feedback when candidates are notselected.
I've been in situations where candidates feltlike I wasn't selected because I needed an
accommodation or I wasn't selected because onceI revealed my race or my religion or my
(29:59):
ethnicity, then I was declined.
And I will say that's not always the case.
More often than not, it's really just the factthat you weren't selected.
And because you don't know what the other, thecompetition looks like, a lot of candidates
will take things personally, but we don't wantto default to that response.
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We always have to research what we're doing,research what the company's doing, because
there's always that one chance that this personwas right and they weren't hired because of
some discriminatory practice.
Also have to look at how we utilize our rulesand regulations.
I'll give you an example.
(30:42):
At a former employer, we had a dress code.
When a lot of us were going to the office, alot of companies had dress code.
And part of our business casual dress code, wetalked about hair and we talked about piercings
and we talked about tattoos.
Hair became a touchy subject because way backwhen, if you had braids or if you had locks, it
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was frowned upon because it looked like it wasnot professional.
Well, that's a direct racial indicator.
Like you are discriminating against an entiregroup of people.
And then we talked about hair color.
Well, why is purple any different than someonewho dyes their hair auburn, who dyes it jet
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black, or someone who purposefully dyed itgray.
I mean, we have to look at the candidate'seducation and their experience and not what
they look like.
Qualifications.
Yeah, as HR, my point is we always have to lookat our environment and test ourselves to make
(31:54):
sure that our practices are not discriminatory.
So you were saying how, you know, with so manylayoffs and things and people having, you know,
there's a lot of people seeking employment.
How do people then stay relevant in such afast, you know, pace changing job market?
Like, what would you say, like, when you'relooking to hire employees, and I don't know, it
(32:19):
depends company to company, but what are thekey things that people could keep in mind when
they're coming to interview?
And let's say they're changing industries,like, you know, what are the key things that
employers would be looking for?
I think they would look for the person who doestheir research because then it shows intent to
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get this job and perform well.
If I go to an interview and I know nothingabout the company, I've not done my research.
I just know you're hiring for this particularjob.
That is not as appealing as the candidate whointerviews and knows the company's mission,
their vision, knows beyond what this one rolerequires, knows the company's financial
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standing.
We also look at what kinds of questions thecandidate is asking during the interview.
Are you only asking, well, what are the nextsteps?
Or are you asking more detailed questions abouttheir financial solvency?
Because you really do need to think, you know,forward five, ten years down the road or even
(33:26):
longer.
Am I interviewing for a company that willcontinue to employ me or will continue to be
able to employ me knowing we live in a worldwhere a layoff is very, very possible?
And so you have to ask those questions and notbe afraid to ask those questions.
And for the employer, for the interviewer, it'simpressive to have someone ask that question
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because they're forward-thinking.
And those are the kind of people that you wantworking for you.
And what would you say is the thing that youabsolutely love most about your job, and what
do you love least about your job?
I will say, Katherine, my answer to thisparticular question changes depending on what's
(34:12):
happening.
So right now, what I love most about my job isthat no two days are the same.
Yes, you have your regular processes andprocedures that you do, but there's never been
a mundane aspect to what I do.
And so I love that, just the constant changebecause it keeps me on my toes.
(34:35):
It keeps me interested and it keeps melearning.
I think the part that I like least about thisis actually, I have conducted several layoffs
in my time as an HR professional.
Sitting across the table from someone or beingon a Teams call or Google Chat call, and you're
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having to look someone in the face and tellthem that you are no longer employed and I'm
taking away your regular paycheck and yourbenefits.
And I know you have a family and maybe you hada medical procedure planned that now COBRA is
102%.
(35:19):
And so it's difficult and it's even moredifficult when you have someone who's been with
the company for 15, 20, 30 years, and they'vededicated quite a bit of their life to the
company.
And in one fell swoop, you have to let them go.
(35:40):
And it's not because of anything that they did.
I think it's never easy, but it might be easierif it was a situation where your performance is
poor or you violated a company policy.
But in a reduction in force, there's nothingthat the employee did.
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It's just, it is what it is and the companycan't afford to keep you.
And so the company will continue to go on andthrive and hopefully make money.
But now we're parting ways with this employeeand I don't know what's next for them.
So that's a difficult piece for me.
(36:21):
So I would love to talk about your personaldreams, your vision for what's next for you.
And just in what you do, I mean, we all love tomake a difference.
And I know that, you know, what led you to HR,you feel like you know you are making a
(36:44):
difference because you're actually the advocatefor so many who cannot advocate for themselves.
Right?
And so what is the thing that just warms yourheart and just makes you get up and jump out of
bed every day because you're so excited aboutit?
I'm a puzzle solver.
So I enjoy being able to make the pieces fit.
(37:09):
And because I was able to help someone make thepieces fit, they can now see the big picture,
which means they are now empowered to move tothe next step and then the next step and then
the next step.
And it makes me feel good to know that I had ahand in that, that I was able to help someone
(37:31):
propel themselves to the next level, whateverthat level might be.
I think the thing that really, really makes meget up and be proud of what I do every day is
not only the fact that I'm helping people,little by little, I feel like I am making some
sort of an impact in my community.
(37:52):
If I am able to help one person achieve theirgoals and then they pay it forward, they are
able to share those same tools with someoneelse or refer that person to me, and that's
happened before.
And then I'm able to help them.
I think it's hard to describe.
It keeps me going.
It keeps me going, and it reaffirms that I havea purpose.
(38:17):
And I didn't always know what my purpose was.
And I questioned it for quite some time.
And so being able to give that back to othersand then also help them identify what their
purpose might be.
Yeah, that's everything to me.
I love that.
We need more advocates for people because theydon't always know that they actually have
(38:40):
choices.
So many times, I know whenever I've hadconversations with people who are like, you
know, with situations that might be happeningon the job or whatnot.
And it's just to some people, it may be like,well, you know, don't allow anybody to do that
to you.
And then to other people and that was somethingthat we had talked about.
(39:01):
And I and, you know, we're probably like-mindedlike that is that you just don't let people,
you know, disrespect you in any way orwhatever.
But then there are others who you don'trealize, and it could be a personality thing.
It could be, you know, just past lifesituations that, you know, the absolute need
for the job.
So what advice would you give an audience of,let's say, whether they be the leader of a
(39:28):
company or employees who are looking for theright leadership, what would be some form of
advice that you would wanna leave them withbecause of the role that you play in companies
and being able to help in the HR role?
I think maybe the top two things would be,number one, because you are worthy and because
(39:51):
I firmly believe that everyone has a purpose,it is okay to promote yourself.
It is okay to speak positively about yourselfto others.
I am a certified facilitator for the I AmRemarkable movement.
And the movement teaches people to recognizetheir worth and promote themselves without
(40:12):
shame or fear.
And I signed on with that movement because itjust so closely aligns to what I believe and
has helped me personally in terms of being ableto speak positively about myself, which was not
always something I found easy to do.
And I think we discussed before, Katherine,that I grew up in an environment where you
(40:38):
speak when you're spoken to and you respectyour elders, so you don't interrupt, you don't
overtalk.
And I carried that with me to corporateAmerica, and it actually hindered my growth.
And it wasn't until a director of mine pulledme aside and said, I believe in you.
(40:59):
I believe in what you bring to the table.
You are intelligent.
You have the experience.
Why don't you let people know that?
When people are saying things or when they areasking questions, why is your hand not the
first hand to go up?
Because I know you know the answer.
And I was just very ingrained in beingreserved.
(41:20):
And I had to unlearn that.
And so the I Am Remarkable movement helps youunlearn that.
It gives you steps and processes that you canput into action to be able to get to a place
where you self-promote yourself.
And when you do that, you reach your goals muchfaster than you would if you did not.
(41:42):
So that's number one.
You're worthy, you have a purpose, brag aboutyourself.
Number two, and we talked about this, is justknow your rights.
You don't know what you don't know, which iswhy I'm here, which is why I do what I do.
My goal is to empower people holistically.
So I wanna empower your written and verbalcommunication, your body language, your overall
(42:05):
demeanor.
And if you know better, you'll do better andyou'll require better for yourself.
I just think it's important to hold yourselfaccountable to that by asking questions,
seeking help and doing the work.
That is really good advice.
Well, Leslie, I just want to thank you so muchfor being here today.
(42:26):
And if our audience wanted to seek you out andseek advice from you, coaching or just
mentorship, how would they find you?
Great question.
My website is xavierbrown.org.
Anyone could just go to that website and fillout a quick form to make an appointment with me
(42:47):
and we'll chat and talk about what you expectto get out of life, what you want, your
desires, your career goals, your personalgoals.
And I'll make some suggestions in terms of thebest program that I feel like is a good fit for
you.
And if you're not ready to sign on, feel freeto follow my Instagram page, xavierbrownllc,
(43:09):
and just check out the content.
I post little tidbits here and there to justreally talk about everyday challenges that we
all face, whether that be personal orcareer-related.
And I do drop some gems.
I try to drop a gem or two here or there, justbased on my own experience or some things that
I am working on at the time.
(43:31):
So that's another way for people to just maybeget a good idea of what I do and what I stand
for.
And what would you say would be your idealclient avatar?
I would say any working professional, and itdoesn't have to be the standard white-collar
corporate America.
(43:51):
People in the logistics warehouse environment,hands-on work experience the same challenges.
Whatever the industry might be, if you arelooking to advance yourself and you just don't
know how, or you feel like people or things areblocking you, seek me out.
The person who has been in their industry for awhile and they feel like they have reached the
(44:17):
top of their hierarchy, they have that glassceiling thing going on, and you don't know
what's next or how to get there, that's theperson I want to talk to.
Then there's also the person who has been intheir career for quite some time, and they have
reached their goals, but now they're just like,what now?
(44:37):
I want to change, I want to know something new,and I need somebody to help me understand what
that looks like.
I want to talk to that person as well.
That was something that I was going to ask youactually now that you bring that up.
And it's like, how do you help somebody who isin that place?
Because we do.
We all get there, right?
At some point, it's like you feel like you'veachieved everything.
(45:01):
Now you're looking at what's next, but thenthere's a fear factor that comes with that
because you know what you know.
You don't know what's on the other side of whatyou don't know.
Right.
Right.
It's kind of the devil-you-know type ofscenario.
Exactly.
So how do you guide someone through thatprocess and why would they seek you to do that
(45:24):
with?
Because that's really good.
We all need a mentor and we all need a coach.
Even coaches need coaches.
Absolutely, absolutely.
And I have a couple of mentors actually.
I have a professional mentor and I have apersonal mentor to just kind of help me in my
personal life outside of my career.
(45:44):
And that's something that I'm offering for allof my clients.
We have personal goals, we have professionalgoals, and I too have been in that scenario
where I reached what I felt like was thepinnacle of my career.
And I was a regional HR manager overseeingmultiple states and thousands of employees.
(46:08):
And I had a full team under me and it got to apoint where even though my work is not mundane,
I started to feel like this is very mundane andI don't know what am I doing, what's next?
And that's around the time where I started tofeel like I've lost my purpose.
(46:28):
And it wasn't until I started talking to amentor of mine and started to observe how even
within HR, HR professionals are maybe one ofthe top populations who unfortunately don't
know their rights.
Encounter the same kind of challenges peopleoutside of HR encounter.
(46:48):
And so you would expect that they would knowbecause they work in HR, but they don't.
And so when I started to see those things and Ihad more and more conversations with both
mentors, that's when I got back to this placeof, I always said I wanted to have my own HR
consulting firm.
(47:09):
But that idea and that goal shifted to, I wantto help people realize their dreams, whether
that is career-wise or personal.
And here I am.
So how would I help this person go through thatsame process?
Again, I would recommend they come seek me out,talk to me, see what I'm about.
(47:29):
And if you decide to sign up with me, we'llhave one-on-one coaching sessions.
If there is a workshop that I think would bebest suited for whatever your goal is, then we
will start in that workshop.
I want to offer solutions along withfacilitating a kind of transformative journey
(47:52):
for you.
And I want you to be the owner of that journey.
And I want you to have accountability on wherethat journey takes you.
And I want you to succeed.
And so through all of those tools and theaction plans that we would create and the daily
work that we would have you do, through allthose things, I firmly believe that you will
(48:14):
get to where you want to be.
That's awesome.
Right, so they can reach you at, what was it,Leslie Brown?
XaviaBrown.org.
Dot org.
Or you can go to XaviaBrownLLC on Instagram.
All right, well, you know what, Leslie?
I think that you've given us lots to work withhere and thank you so much for all these
(48:37):
teachables and these nuggets that you were ableto share with us today.
We really enjoyed having you on our show.
Thank you for inviting me, Katherine.
I really do appreciate the partnership and I'veloved talking to you.
So thank you again.
You're welcome.
Well, again, this is Katherine, your host withThe Beyond Business Podcast.
So excited that you were able to stay with ushere today and just get some really good
(49:02):
nuggets from Leslie Brown.
And again, we are just excited to have you onour show, and we wish you well and looking
forward to our next recording.
Well, if you made it to this point, then youmade it to the end, and you are my star.
And I just want to thank you from the bottom ofmy heart.
(49:24):
I hope that you enjoyed the conversation withtoday's guest.
And if you did, please leave us a review onApple Podcasts and Spotify, and share this
episode with others who may be interested inthis topic.
Also, please feel free to let us know whattopics you'd like to see covered in future
episodes.
Get in touch in the comments or on RocketGrowth's social media platforms.
(49:48):
To have conversations with me, my booking linkis in the comments.
See you next week for an all-new episode.
I am Katherine Martín-Fisher, and I helpbusiness owners who have lost their vision
because they're struggling with cash flow,sales, marketing, which also affects their
company culture.
By showing them to implement proven systemsthat increase their revenue by 30% in 90 days,
and this allowing them to reignite the passionand that big dream that they started with.
(00:28):
So the reason that I started this podcast wasto celebrate businesses who have overcome
adversity and have come out on the other sideof it.
And I want you to know that you are not alone.
Good afternoon.
This is Katherine, your host with the BeyondBusiness Podcast.
I'm so excited to introduce you to Leslie Brownhere today.
(00:51):
She is unashamedly excited about connecting thecommunity to the resources that they need.
She's a highly motivated HR professional with15 years in the field and a strong background
in employee relations, performance management,compliance, mediation, leadership, coaching,
and change management.
(01:13):
Additionally, she's a certified professionalrecognized by the Society for Human Resource
Management.
HR is more than a job for Leslie.
It's a series of thankless tasks that provideintrinsic value to those who truly care about
the livelihood of others.
But she's more than an HR professional.
(01:34):
She's a coach, a mentor, a teacher, acounselor, a peer, and a leader.
She accepts the challenge every day.
Well, Leslie, thank you so much for being onour show.
Thank you for having me, Katherine.
I appreciate it.
So, you know, Leslie, that was quite a bit, andI love that you have this love for what you do.
(02:00):
I would love for you to share with our audiencea little bit about what led you onto the path
and the journey of what you do today.
Well, I actually initially started out going toschool for psychology, and I got my bachelor's
degree in psychology.
I fully believed that I was going to be a childand family therapist.
(02:23):
And when I graduated college, I got into thefield and quickly learned that there is a lot
of emotional work that the therapist has to doon themselves because it is not an easy task
when you are helping others who have mentalhealth issues, and it can take a toll on
(02:48):
yourself, especially when you're dealing withchildren.
So it was a bit challenging for me; a bit isnot describing it.
It was extremely challenging for me to thepoint where I ultimately just decided that that
was not the path for me.
So I took a break, and I started working just aregular entry-level nine-to-five job and
(03:11):
decided that I wanted to go back to school toget my master's in HR management.
And what connected me there was, you know, Itook some classes in undergrad
industrial-organizational psychology, whichreally talks a lot about the psychology of the
workplace and how companies build environmentsand engage their employees and how the business
(03:33):
is run when it only survives because of thepeople that it employs.
And so I found a connection between psychologyand HR.
And so I went back, got my master's in HRmanagement.
And as soon as I got my master's, I wentstraight into HR, and I've been in the field
(03:53):
ever since.
And it's been very rewarding.
It gives me the best of both worlds.
I get to put on my psychologist hat, and then Ialso get to wear my HR professional hat.
So yeah, I absolutely love what I do.
How do you stay motivated to keep learning?
Because obviously with HR especially, there areconstant new laws and ways in which to keep
(04:20):
compliant.
What motivates you to keep learning?
It's the constant change.
And it is the idea that things are happeningaround me and around people that you feel like
you can't control, but you actually can controlthem if you have the knowledge base and if you
(04:44):
have the tools you need to be able to empoweryourself to address it or even in some
instances, just completely change yourenvironment.
And in HR, you're correct.
Things change so rapidly.
I mean, every year, you know, there's somethingnew happening that impacts the world of HR.
(05:07):
Our industry is led by our environment.
You know, whether that be any new legislatureor the economy itself, we deal with everything.
COVID was a big thing for HR professionals.
We had to learn, unlearn a lot of the old waysof doing things, and then learn what the new
(05:31):
world was like.
And there was a lot of mental health aspectsthere.
There were a lot of financial wellness aspectsthere, physical wellness aspects there.
And so we approached HR from a differentperspective.
And so I think the challenge that you face inHR on a regular basis, that's what motivates me
because every day is something new.
(05:54):
Every year it's something new.
And I don't want to be that person that isgiving bad advice.
I care too much about people and their ownwell-being and their success to do them a
disservice.
I love that you shared that.
It seems to me that having the psychologybackground is probably helpful in what you do
(06:17):
in HR.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
What would you say are some of the rights thatemployees don't often know that they have?
I think for the employee who comes to workevery day and they have a very challenging
manager who at times can be disrespectful orcondescending or make comments because the
(06:42):
environment might be a little morelackadaisical about discriminatory actions or
language.
Oftentimes your average worker does not knowthat these things are indeed illegal.
And as an employee, you have a right to speakup for yourself.
They don't know what process to follow.
(07:04):
A lot of companies surprisingly don't have away for employees to really report concerns or
they communicate that they have a method, buttheir method is faulty, which kind of detracts
from employees feeling comfortable choosingthat route.
So I would just say the biggest things for mein terms of wanting people to know are know
(07:33):
your worth.
If it doesn't feel right, if it doesn't soundgood, if it's not encouraging, it's not right.
It's not right.
And you absolutely can speak up.
You can stand up for yourself, and you don'talways have to sit back and settle for what the
company is giving you or what that particularmanager is giving you.
(07:54):
You can seek outside help.
So, you know, in your experience, do you thinkthat most companies truly actually prioritize
their employees' well-being over more of thecheck-the-box kind of mentality?
I think that in today's culture, we've gottenaway from engagement.
(08:16):
I think it's still important, and a lot ofcompanies still talk about it, but with the
choice to discontinue DEI programs, a lot ofthese decisions that companies are making, it
really changes the perspective that theemployee has about how the company feels about
(08:37):
them.
I mean, even at the customer base, a lot ofcustomers don't shop at certain places anymore
because they've made choices to discontinueDEI.
And one thing that I've learned over the years,you know, whether it's with your customers or
your employees, I mean, both populations areequally important because the business wouldn't
(08:57):
survive without the customer or employee.
And if you sell a product or a service and itis not like your policies and procedures and
how you operate is not indicative of how youtreat your customer base.
(09:18):
And it's not inclusive in terms of youremployees, like to me, it's a contradiction.
And so I think after COVID and now with so manythings changing with our current
administration, I just think that business ingeneral is more about the product and
(09:41):
maintaining solvency versus giving back to theemployee or, you know, making the employee feel
valued.
Talking about career advancement, you hear moreabout layoffs than you do about career
enrichment.
I think, unfortunately, that's the world we,well, that's the world we live in in this
(10:04):
country.
I can't speak about any other country.
So I think we have to take a stand, and we haveto say both are equally important.
You have to survive as a company, but you alsohave to pay attention to your employees.
You also have to give them just as much valueas you give your customers.
(10:24):
So I do have a question about that because oneof the things we so this weekend, we're going
to a business summit.
And one of the things that I will say in theecosystem I'm obviously a 10x business coach,
and so one of the things that we're actually Imean, this is like a mission is to teach
employers and company head leaders of a companyhow to treat your people, how to train your
(10:54):
people, teach your people, grow your people.
And the more people that know how to actuallybuild their businesses that way are they're
gonna be building more sustainable businessesthat grow, but they don't just grow and benefit
from the growth.
Their people grow and benefit from the growth.
So although I know that right now, as there hasbeen a shift in the administration and lots of
(11:20):
things that are happening, I think that ifeverybody got on board with really caring more
about their people and growing their people,but also valuing them, that there will be less
less so when I think of HR, this is the reasonwhy I'm saying this.
Unless that they unless there is a place inwhich for people to win
(11:43):
Mhmm.
To grow, to scale themselves in life, not justthe company, then all of a sudden now you're
all in the game to win together.
And then you're also making a difference inyour community.
You're able to take because, obviously, thehappier people are, the more excited they are
to go to work without being in fear mode ofbeing, you know, let go because of whatever.
(12:10):
I mean, when there is when there is a teamatmosphere where they're all working together,
do you find that in those types of atmospheres,there's less there's less fear on the
employees' part?
There's obviously accountability.
There's always gonna be accountability.
There's always, you know, there's things thateverybody's—I mean, obviously, everybody's in
(12:31):
business to make money.
There's a reason why you started a business.
So as an HR person, where you're a mentor, acoach, a leader in, you know, that part of the
company, are you able to help in implementingthings like that in a company with your role?
Absolutely, yes.
And it's more about the influence for HRbecause it used to be HR was more
(12:59):
administrative.
We come into a company and we have policies, wehave procedures and we give guidance, but
ultimately it's the company or it's themanagement team's decision, which is still the
case now.
But we, as an industry, are now saying, we wanta seat at the table and we want to be strategic
(13:24):
partners, not administrators.
And with that comes the bigger push forinfluence.
So, when you have that CEO who is apparentlyvery intelligent enough to get a position as a
CEO and they know the ins and outs of thebusiness, but they're not the best people
(13:47):
leader, that is the person that as an HRprofessional, you want to get in front of and
you want to give them that guidance.
You want to paint that picture for them so thatthey understand and they walk away from every
conversation knowing the impact of theirlanguage, their behavior, their presence in the
company.
(14:08):
And they understand the gravity of their roleas a people leader, not just, you know, a CEO
of a business line or of the company itself.
So the influence that we have is extremelyimportant, and we leverage it every day.
That's that's awesome.
I love that.
(14:29):
Are you so let's say, you know, because, youknow, you guys are in HR and your job is to
pretty much make sure that your people aretaken care of and that there are things that
you're kind of the go-to in between.
Well, how how do you handle when you have amanager that might be a micromanager that is
(14:49):
kind of stepping over the line, not realizingthat they're not managing in the proper way?
Because really and this is just even fromexperience.
Your people do better, and your people will bewilling to jump through hoops for you the more
that they're appreciated, valued, and shownthat versus the micromanaging and being kind of
(15:10):
held back from their ability to be able toproduce in a different manner.
How do you help the manager overcome that forthem?
Because that's almost like a training in ofitself.
It definitely is.
And leadership development, I'm doing it rightnow.
Yes, I'm putting together a whole series forour leaders.
(15:33):
So I would say that it is a training withinitself.
And a part of that training, again, I go backto painting that picture.
Number one, you have to introduce emotionalintelligence to that leader.
In emotional intelligence, a lot of people getthat misconstrued thinking that, oh, it's just
(15:53):
my ability to be able to read other people.
No, it's more so your ability to read yourselfand to understand who you are as a person, as a
leader, what are your strengths?
What are your own weaknesses?
And once you recognize your weaknesses, whichmight be maybe I'm a bit too direct and I don't
(16:14):
understand all the different personalities onmy team.
And I have laser focus on how I want thingsdone, which then can lead to that micromanaging
manager.
And so through emotional intelligence and doingthe work, you recognize that about yourself.
So now you can adjust your responses to thedifferent personalities on your team.
(16:38):
You can adjust your language.
You can understand when you're being a littlebit too direct, and you might even be able to
more positively receive that feedback or evencriticism from your team, your peers, or even
as a manager from your own manager.
And so I think that's the first step is reallydiving deep into emotional intelligence.
(17:00):
But I also think that again, painting thatpicture because sometimes people don't
understand the gravity of their actions.
And for me, I think I've gotten the mostpositive outcomes when I explain to leaders
that you can be personally liable if thecompany is sued.
(17:23):
And don't think that just because you work fora company and maybe an employee sued them and
you are still with the company, you're stillworking for them, you're safe.
You're not.
Your personal assets, your 401(k)s, your home,your car, all of those things can be up for
grabs depending on the situation, depending onthe courts.
(17:48):
That's not a place you want to put yourself in.
So it's easier to do the work in yourselfupfront than to face losing everything on the
back end.
That's actually really great advice.
Because I don't think that people reallyrealize that that can happen.
(18:08):
No, they don't.
They don't, which is why that's typically
my go-to point when I'm talking to leadersabout harassment or sexual harassment or
discrimination, like some of the big powerfulhot topics, you don't want to find yourself on
the negative end of a legal battle.
(18:30):
And just because this person sues the companydoesn't mean that it can't sue the company and
then sue you personally.
And the average manager does not know that.
Well, it would be good to have you on thecompanies to then to inform them of that.
How should what would you say how shouldsomeone handle if they're feeling that they're
(18:51):
being discriminated against and treatedunfairly at work?
I think number one, if it's not documented, itdidn't happen.
So as an employee, I always encourage, andreally on both sides, leadership and
non-leadership, I encourage people in theworkplace to have your conversations, but then
(19:18):
send emails to memorialize what we discussed.
And especially for the employee who feels thatthere was an inappropriate comment made or
something was done and it was retaliatory ordiscriminatory, there are steps that you can
take.
And the steps typically start with address thesituation immediately.
(19:42):
Don't let it linger.
And sometimes people are a little bit afraidof, you know, what are the ramifications if I
address that?
So that might be why they wait.
I understand that.
But it has to be addressed or it's never goingto change.
So your best bet is to address it the firsttime it happens and really clear the air.
(20:02):
Maybe it was a miscommunication.
Maybe it wasn't a miscommunication.
And maybe you just need to put that person onnotice that, hey, I caught that, it is
unacceptable.
And you can do that and coach up to yourmanager and say, I'm sorry, that comment was
very discriminatory.
(20:23):
I take personal offense to that.
So going forward, I want us to have a betterworking relationship.
I want us to be professional.
So I would hope that this would be the firstand the last time that you make this type of
comment to me and allow it to rest, butdocument it.
And I definitely would document it in the formof an email to that person so that you can
(20:47):
demonstrate if you have to pull back on thatemail later for any kind of legal reason, or if
you're taking it to HR, that you can show thatthis did indeed happen because I documented it
and I sent an email to you.
And whether or not that person chooses torespond is on them, but you now have something
to say, if this didn't happen, if I wasn'tbeing truthful about this happening, why would
(21:12):
I then send the email directly to you?
And it's even better if that person respondsand it would be best if that person were to
respond and say, you know what, you'reabsolutely right.
I apologize.
That will never happen again.
Great.
Great.
Now you both have documentation to support,yes, this did happen.
(21:32):
Yes, this person received an apology.
I took accountability for my behavior and Icommitted to never having this type of
situation happen again.
I like that.
When would you say is, when should someone goto HR versus doing it with the manager
themselves?
It's okay if the recipient of the bad behavioris not comfortable addressing it head-on.
(21:59):
That's what HR is for.
There are times when HR has to be the mediator.
That's what we do.
It would be okay if that person were to decide,hey, I don't want to send this email.
I don't even want to address it with mymanager.
I want to go directly to HR and tell them whattranspired.
And then at that point, HR would kind of takethe lead and talk with the manager.
(22:22):
Again, get a commitment for this type ofbehavior to never happen again.
The way that we might handle that situation,depending on the egregiousness of the matter,
it might result in that person no longer beingwith the company, or it might result in that
person being written up, or that person beingenrolled in your next emotional intelligence or
(22:44):
sensitivity, anti-discrimination training.
But there are various ways to handle eachsituation.
And it's okay if the employee decides that theydon't want to take that on directly.
They want the support of HR.
Now what would you say people should knowbefore signing an employment contract for a
(23:08):
non-compete, let's say, agreement?
What should they know in advance prior tosigning that?
First of all, read it.
Never sign anything that you have not fullyread.
If you are in a position to have the document,because it's a legal document.
(23:29):
If you're in a position to have an attorneyreview it, do so.
If not, it's okay.
Ask questions.
Ask as many questions as it takes for you tofully understand what you are signing.
And the reason I say this is because once yoursignature is on that document, you are held to
(23:51):
that standard.
And that means if you break that contractsomewhere down the line, you cannot claim
ignorance because it was given to you and it'sin writing and you signed it.
So the expectation is that, again, read it,don't sign it if you don't agree, ask as many
(24:15):
questions as it takes for you to fullyunderstand.
And you do have the power to negotiate certainthings.
So with me saying that, companies sometimeshave a standard non-compete and it at times is
a part of like their onboarding packet oronboarding documentation.
And it comes along with your employee handbookand all these other things.
(24:37):
So sometimes you kind of miss it.
However, if you know that you have otherinterests, you know that you provide a
specialty service or you are in a position tobe sought after by other companies.
That is where you need to ask those questionsupfront and be very transparent with whoever
(24:58):
the hiring manager is, or just whoever isreviewing your employment at that time.
Be very upfront and open so that, again,they're giving you this contract and you are
giving them all the information.
Both parties need to understand and be on thesame page about what we're doing and what the
way forward looks like.
(25:18):
And let's say, so this is one thing that I feelthat people do seem to have a challenge with at
times is when you're working for a company thathas policies in place, how does an employee
push back on, when I say I mean safely pushback on or raise concerns of things that may
(25:39):
not be in alignment with their livedexperiences?
Just communication.
Professional communication will never steer youwrong.
I think people lose credibility internally andif they pursue any kind of legal action or any
kind of action with an external agency, theylose credibility when you fly off the handle,
(26:06):
when you start using profanity, because thenpeople stop listening to you.
They only see your demeanor.
They only hear the language and they're notgetting the message.
So I would just say to that employee, bemindful of your approach, be mindful of your
(26:27):
communication, be mindful of your bodylanguage.
And that is not an easy thing to do, especiallyif it's something that really bothers you or
angers you.
And it's okay to take a moment to collect yourthoughts.
I've even recommended for some people to writeeverything down, get all of your feelings out
on paper, get all of your anger out on paper,and then write it over again, but write it in a
(26:50):
professional voice.
And if you have to write it three or fourtimes, then that's fine.
If you have to read it five or six times toyourself, that's fine.
Prepare yourself for that meeting, thatconversation.
Don't just walk in and begin to talk from anemotional place.
(27:11):
That's really good advice actually.
And even in life, that's always, that's a greatway to do it.
Write it, write it again.
And actually, that helps to diffuse theemotion.
Of course.
I can't tell you how many times I started outresponding to emails and then said, delete,
(27:34):
delete, delete.
And I had to write them over maybe three orfour times before I actually sent it.
So it's not an easy thing to do.
It's definitely easier said than done, but it'sworth it in the long run if you just take the
time to really be very articulate in what youare trying to convey.
(27:55):
What would you say are trends that you areseeing in hiring in the workplace regarding
like culture and how professionals whatprofessionals should know about?
I think it is right now, there are more peoplewithout jobs than with.
(28:18):
And so competition is thick.
And there are a lot of companies who are taskedwith really just, they're between a rock and a
hard place with selecting candidates.
They have to actually say, okay, all thingsbeing equal, which one has the advanced degree
(28:42):
versus the bachelor's degree versus no degree?
This person has all this experience, and eventhough you're not supposed to consider certain
things like age or gender, let's be real, thosethings come up depending on the industry.
So, I think for HR, especially with hiring,it's extremely important for all of our HR
(29:08):
professionals to have a good pulse on thecompany's hiring process and procedures, make
sure that your hiring managers are regularlygoing through some sort of training.
They know in the interview process, what is asafe question?
What do you ask?
What do you avoid asking?
What are the illegal questions to ask?
(29:31):
And I think it's also important for, as an HRteam, for us to be prepared to receive some
negative feedback when candidates are notselected.
I've been in situations where candidates feltlike I wasn't selected because I needed an
accommodation or I wasn't selected because onceI revealed my race or my religion or my
(29:59):
ethnicity, then I was declined.
And I will say that's not always the case.
More often than not, it's really just the factthat you weren't selected.
And because you don't know what the other, thecompetition looks like, a lot of candidates
will take things personally, but we don't wantto default to that response.
(30:20):
We always have to research what we're doing,research what the company's doing, because
there's always that one chance that this personwas right and they weren't hired because of
some discriminatory practice.
Also have to look at how we utilize our rulesand regulations.
I'll give you an example.
(30:42):
At a former employer, we had a dress code.
When a lot of us were going to the office, alot of companies had dress code.
And part of our business casual dress code, wetalked about hair and we talked about piercings
and we talked about tattoos.
Hair became a touchy subject because way backwhen, if you had braids or if you had locks, it
(31:07):
was frowned upon because it looked like it wasnot professional.
Well, that's a direct racial indicator.
Like you are discriminating against an entiregroup of people.
And then we talked about hair color.
Well, why is purple any different than someonewho dyes their hair auburn, who dyes it jet
(31:32):
black, or someone who purposefully dyed itgray.
I mean, we have to look at the candidate'seducation and their experience and not what
they look like.
Qualifications.
Yeah, as HR, my point is we always have to lookat our environment and test ourselves to make
(31:54):
sure that our practices are not discriminatory.
So you were saying how, you know, with so manylayoffs and things and people having, you know,
there's a lot of people seeking employment.
How do people then stay relevant in such afast, you know, pace changing job market?
Like, what would you say, like, when you'relooking to hire employees, and I don't know, it
(32:19):
depends company to company, but what are thekey things that people could keep in mind when
they're coming to interview?
And let's say they're changing industries,like, you know, what are the key things that
employers would be looking for?
I think they would look for the person who doestheir research because then it shows intent to
(32:40):
get this job and perform well.
If I go to an interview and I know nothingabout the company, I've not done my research.
I just know you're hiring for this particularjob.
That is not as appealing as the candidate whointerviews and knows the company's mission,
their vision, knows beyond what this one rolerequires, knows the company's financial
(33:05):
standing.
We also look at what kinds of questions thecandidate is asking during the interview.
Are you only asking, well, what are the nextsteps?
Or are you asking more detailed questions abouttheir financial solvency?
Because you really do need to think, you know,forward five, ten years down the road or even
(33:26):
longer.
Am I interviewing for a company that willcontinue to employ me or will continue to be
able to employ me knowing we live in a worldwhere a layoff is very, very possible?
And so you have to ask those questions and notbe afraid to ask those questions.
And for the employer, for the interviewer, it'simpressive to have someone ask that question
(33:51):
because they're forward-thinking.
And those are the kind of people that you wantworking for you.
And what would you say is the thing that youabsolutely love most about your job, and what
do you love least about your job?
I will say, Katherine, my answer to thisparticular question changes depending on what's
(34:12):
happening.
So right now, what I love most about my job isthat no two days are the same.
Yes, you have your regular processes andprocedures that you do, but there's never been
a mundane aspect to what I do.
And so I love that, just the constant changebecause it keeps me on my toes.
(34:35):
It keeps me interested and it keeps melearning.
I think the part that I like least about thisis actually, I have conducted several layoffs
in my time as an HR professional.
Sitting across the table from someone or beingon a Teams call or Google Chat call, and you're
(34:58):
having to look someone in the face and tellthem that you are no longer employed and I'm
taking away your regular paycheck and yourbenefits.
And I know you have a family and maybe you hada medical procedure planned that now COBRA is
102%.
(35:19):
And so it's difficult and it's even moredifficult when you have someone who's been with
the company for 15, 20, 30 years, and they'vededicated quite a bit of their life to the
company.
And in one fell swoop, you have to let them go.
(35:40):
And it's not because of anything that they did.
I think it's never easy, but it might be easierif it was a situation where your performance is
poor or you violated a company policy.
But in a reduction in force, there's nothingthat the employee did.
(36:01):
It's just, it is what it is and the companycan't afford to keep you.
And so the company will continue to go on andthrive and hopefully make money.
But now we're parting ways with this employeeand I don't know what's next for them.
So that's a difficult piece for me.
(36:21):
So I would love to talk about your personaldreams, your vision for what's next for you.
And just in what you do, I mean, we all love tomake a difference.
And I know that, you know, what led you to HR,you feel like you know you are making a
(36:44):
difference because you're actually the advocatefor so many who cannot advocate for themselves.
Right?
And so what is the thing that just warms yourheart and just makes you get up and jump out of
bed every day because you're so excited aboutit?
I'm a puzzle solver.
So I enjoy being able to make the pieces fit.
(37:09):
And because I was able to help someone make thepieces fit, they can now see the big picture,
which means they are now empowered to move tothe next step and then the next step and then
the next step.
And it makes me feel good to know that I had ahand in that, that I was able to help someone
(37:31):
propel themselves to the next level, whateverthat level might be.
I think the thing that really, really makes meget up and be proud of what I do every day is
not only the fact that I'm helping people,little by little, I feel like I am making some
sort of an impact in my community.
(37:52):
If I am able to help one person achieve theirgoals and then they pay it forward, they are
able to share those same tools with someoneelse or refer that person to me, and that's
happened before.
And then I'm able to help them.
I think it's hard to describe.
It keeps me going.
It keeps me going, and it reaffirms that I havea purpose.
(38:17):
And I didn't always know what my purpose was.
And I questioned it for quite some time.
And so being able to give that back to othersand then also help them identify what their
purpose might be.
Yeah, that's everything to me.
I love that.
We need more advocates for people because theydon't always know that they actually have
(38:40):
choices.
So many times, I know whenever I've hadconversations with people who are like, you
know, with situations that might be happeningon the job or whatnot.
And it's just to some people, it may be like,well, you know, don't allow anybody to do that
to you.
And then to other people and that was somethingthat we had talked about.
(39:01):
And I and, you know, we're probably like-mindedlike that is that you just don't let people,
you know, disrespect you in any way orwhatever.
But then there are others who you don'trealize, and it could be a personality thing.
It could be, you know, just past lifesituations that, you know, the absolute need
for the job.
So what advice would you give an audience of,let's say, whether they be the leader of a
(39:28):
company or employees who are looking for theright leadership, what would be some form of
advice that you would wanna leave them withbecause of the role that you play in companies
and being able to help in the HR role?
I think maybe the top two things would be,number one, because you are worthy and because
(39:51):
I firmly believe that everyone has a purpose,it is okay to promote yourself.
It is okay to speak positively about yourselfto others.
I am a certified facilitator for the I AmRemarkable movement.
And the movement teaches people to recognizetheir worth and promote themselves without
(40:12):
shame or fear.
And I signed on with that movement because itjust so closely aligns to what I believe and
has helped me personally in terms of being ableto speak positively about myself, which was not
always something I found easy to do.
And I think we discussed before, Katherine,that I grew up in an environment where you
(40:38):
speak when you're spoken to and you respectyour elders, so you don't interrupt, you don't
overtalk.
And I carried that with me to corporateAmerica, and it actually hindered my growth.
And it wasn't until a director of mine pulledme aside and said, I believe in you.
(40:59):
I believe in what you bring to the table.
You are intelligent.
You have the experience.
Why don't you let people know that?
When people are saying things or when they areasking questions, why is your hand not the
first hand to go up?
Because I know you know the answer.
And I was just very ingrained in beingreserved.
(41:20):
And I had to unlearn that.
And so the I Am Remarkable movement helps youunlearn that.
It gives you steps and processes that you canput into action to be able to get to a place
where you self-promote yourself.
And when you do that, you reach your goals muchfaster than you would if you did not.
(41:42):
So that's number one.
You're worthy, you have a purpose, brag aboutyourself.
Number two, and we talked about this, is justknow your rights.
You don't know what you don't know, which iswhy I'm here, which is why I do what I do.
My goal is to empower people holistically.
So I wanna empower your written and verbalcommunication, your body language, your overall
(42:05):
demeanor.
And if you know better, you'll do better andyou'll require better for yourself.
I just think it's important to hold yourselfaccountable to that by asking questions,
seeking help and doing the work.
That is really good advice.
Well, Leslie, I just want to thank you so muchfor being here today.
(42:26):
And if our audience wanted to seek you out andseek advice from you, coaching or just
mentorship, how would they find you?
Great question.
My website is xavierbrown.org.
Anyone could just go to that website and fillout a quick form to make an appointment with me
(42:47):
and we'll chat and talk about what you expectto get out of life, what you want, your
desires, your career goals, your personalgoals.
And I'll make some suggestions in terms of thebest program that I feel like is a good fit for
you.
And if you're not ready to sign on, feel freeto follow my Instagram page, xavierbrownllc,
(43:09):
and just check out the content.
I post little tidbits here and there to justreally talk about everyday challenges that we
all face, whether that be personal orcareer-related.
And I do drop some gems.
I try to drop a gem or two here or there, justbased on my own experience or some things that
I am working on at the time.
(43:31):
So that's another way for people to just maybeget a good idea of what I do and what I stand
for.
And what would you say would be your idealclient avatar?
I would say any working professional, and itdoesn't have to be the standard white-collar
corporate America.
(43:51):
People in the logistics warehouse environment,hands-on work experience the same challenges.
Whatever the industry might be, if you arelooking to advance yourself and you just don't
know how, or you feel like people or things areblocking you, seek me out.
The person who has been in their industry for awhile and they feel like they have reached the
(44:17):
top of their hierarchy, they have that glassceiling thing going on, and you don't know
what's next or how to get there, that's theperson I want to talk to.
Then there's also the person who has been intheir career for quite some time, and they have
reached their goals, but now they're just like,what now?
(44:37):
I want to change, I want to know something new,and I need somebody to help me understand what
that looks like.
I want to talk to that person as well.
That was something that I was going to ask youactually now that you bring that up.
And it's like, how do you help somebody who isin that place?
Because we do.
We all get there, right?
At some point, it's like you feel like you'veachieved everything.
(45:01):
Now you're looking at what's next, but thenthere's a fear factor that comes with that
because you know what you know.
You don't know what's on the other side of whatyou don't know.
Right.
Right.
It's kind of the devil-you-know type ofscenario.
Exactly.
So how do you guide someone through thatprocess and why would they seek you to do that
(45:24):
with?
Because that's really good.
We all need a mentor and we all need a coach.
Even coaches need coaches.
Absolutely, absolutely.
And I have a couple of mentors actually.
I have a professional mentor and I have apersonal mentor to just kind of help me in my
personal life outside of my career.
(45:44):
And that's something that I'm offering for allof my clients.
We have personal goals, we have professionalgoals, and I too have been in that scenario
where I reached what I felt like was thepinnacle of my career.
And I was a regional HR manager overseeingmultiple states and thousands of employees.
(46:08):
And I had a full team under me and it got to apoint where even though my work is not mundane,
I started to feel like this is very mundane andI don't know what am I doing, what's next?
And that's around the time where I started tofeel like I've lost my purpose.
(46:28):
And it wasn't until I started talking to amentor of mine and started to observe how even
within HR, HR professionals are maybe one ofthe top populations who unfortunately don't
know their rights.
Encounter the same kind of challenges peopleoutside of HR encounter.
(46:48):
And so you would expect that they would knowbecause they work in HR, but they don't.
And so when I started to see those things and Ihad more and more conversations with both
mentors, that's when I got back to this placeof, I always said I wanted to have my own HR
consulting firm.
(47:09):
But that idea and that goal shifted to, I wantto help people realize their dreams, whether
that is career-wise or personal.
And here I am.
So how would I help this person go through thatsame process?
Again, I would recommend they come seek me out,talk to me, see what I'm about.
(47:29):
And if you decide to sign up with me, we'llhave one-on-one coaching sessions.
If there is a workshop that I think would bebest suited for whatever your goal is, then we
will start in that workshop.
I want to offer solutions along withfacilitating a kind of transformative journey
(47:52):
for you.
And I want you to be the owner of that journey.
And I want you to have accountability on wherethat journey takes you.
And I want you to succeed.
And so through all of those tools and theaction plans that we would create and the daily
work that we would have you do, through allthose things, I firmly believe that you will
(48:14):
get to where you want to be.
That's awesome.
Right, so they can reach you at, what was it,Leslie Brown?
XaviaBrown.org.
Dot org.
Or you can go to XaviaBrownLLC on Instagram.
All right, well, you know what, Leslie?
I think that you've given us lots to work withhere and thank you so much for all these
(48:37):
teachables and these nuggets that you were ableto share with us today.
We really enjoyed having you on our show.
Thank you for inviting me, Katherine.
I really do appreciate the partnership and I'veloved talking to you.
So thank you again.
You're welcome.
Well, again, this is Katherine, your host withThe Beyond Business Podcast.
So excited that you were able to stay with ushere today and just get some really good
(49:02):
nuggets from Leslie Brown.
And again, we are just excited to have you onour show, and we wish you well and looking
forward to our next recording.
Well, if you made it to this point, then youmade it to the end, and you are my star.
And I just want to thank you from the bottom ofmy heart.
(49:24):
I hope that you enjoyed the conversation withtoday's guest.
And if you did, please leave us a review onApple Podcasts and Spotify, and share this
episode with others who may be interested inthis topic.
Also, please feel free to let us know whattopics you'd like to see covered in future
episodes.
Get in touch in the comments or on RocketGrowth's social media platforms.
(49:48):
To have conversations with me, my booking linkis in the comments.
See you next week for an all-new episode.
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