June 26, 2025 • 30 mins
Katherine Martín-Fisher welcomes Megan Malick to discuss her book inspired by personal experiences with loss and grief. Megan shares a poignant analogy involving trees to describe mourning and highlights often-overlooked aspects of grief. The conversation explores the complexities of settling affairs, the importance of trusted individuals, and an overview of her book "A New Path." Megan offers advice on navigating family conversations and overcoming feelings of overwhelm. The episode concludes with contact information for Megan and Katherine's closing thoughts and call to action for listeners.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
I am Katherine Martín-Fisher, and I helpbusiness owners who have lost their vision
because they're struggling with cash flow,sales, and marketing, which also affects their
company culture.
By showing them how to implement proven systemsthat increase their revenue by 30% in 90 days,
this allows them to reignite the passion andthat big dream that they started with.
(00:28):
So the reason that I started this podcast wasto celebrate businesses that have overcome
adversity and have come out on the other sideof it.
And I want you to know that you are not alone.
Good afternoon.
This is Katherine, your host with The BeyondBusiness Podcast.
I'm so excited because we have Megan Malickwith us here today.
(00:52):
And Megan is supporting heart-led and intuitivesouls through grief, legacy, and life's
transitions with empathy, clarity, andsoul-aligned guidance for navigating loss and
logistics.
She's also the author of "A New Path," which isa workbook that helps to plan for the planning
of the first year of grief and settling yourperson's affairs.
(01:13):
I am so excited to have this conversationtoday.
Megan, thank you so much for being here withus.
Thank you so much for having me.
I am delighted.
I am delighted.
So Megan, you started by, well, you have thisbook, "A New Path," and it's a workbook for
guidance.
What led you to write this book?
(01:35):
Well, what led me to write the book is my ownpersonal experience.
I wrote the book that I wish I would have hadwhen I was going through my own experience
settling my parents' affairs.
Actually, in the summer of 2022, I went toStaples and I repurposed one of those big
(01:56):
planners because I'm an old-school person wholikes things on paper.
And the beginning of the book started withthat, and it grew when friends of mine were
losing their parents shortly after I lost mine,and they were coming seeking support or
guidance.
And I didn't have much time, but I did havesome knowledge.
I started to type some things up and send it tothem, and they said, this is really good.
(02:19):
You should one thing led to another, and I keptgoing, and there you go.
So, I'd love for you to share with ouraudience, you know, had your own personal
experience.
And I know that you're also a speaker.
And one of the things that I would love to knowis what was your experience in loss and grief
(02:39):
that you had to deal with?
So the most recent loss and grief is inJanuary, or the most recent grief and loss that
I've experienced was on January 2.
Mother unexpectedly died.
The autopsy was inconclusive, in fact.
And my father became ill with pneumonia fairlyshortly after Mom died, about three weeks, four
(03:04):
weeks later.
And in less than a season, in less than threemonths, he also died.
And so what I, in addition to the grief and theloss, what I discovered was all that I had to
do because both of them were living lives.
They were engaged.
And, although they were newly retired, theywere full in their life.
(03:27):
And so there was a lot of work to settle theiraffairs is what we call it.
But I talk with people about how we kind ofslowly unravel and kind of take apart and
dissolve or distribute what was there.
And so I was having to do both at the same timewhere I was having massive grief because those
were big unexpected losses and having a lot todissolve and disintegrate and settle at the
(03:54):
same time.
Wow.
So as you're managing all of this, you've, youknow, obviously, you came up with this great
thing.
One of the things I wanna tell you that Ireally enjoyed about your book and it really
resonated with me is there's this part that yousay in here.
And so I would love for you to explain this.
In here on page 57, it says, who are my treesto support me?
(04:19):
And who are the forest rangers to guide me?
Yeah.
What do you mean by that?
So what I mean by the trees to support me andthe forest rangers to guide me is that I see us
as having people in our lives that support us.
Those are our friends, our family, ourcommunity members that we're connected with,
(04:41):
and our forest rangers are the professionalswe're hiring.
And I came up with this idea about a year aftermy dad had passed away.
So a little over a year after my mom, myhusband and I were out in California, and we
had the privilege of hiking in one of theRedwood forests.
It was shortly after the fires had happened andthe park was open.
(05:05):
And journeying into the forest, you could seethese trees that had been singed by fire.
And I was like, how are these trees stillstanding?
And there were placards by the trees thattalked about the root structure of them and how
the roots of the trees are connected to theseother roots.
(05:27):
And they do distress calls to other trees.
And I thought, oh my gosh, this is like me andwhat I've been through.
And then I got curious and discovered there's awriter named, my gosh, I'm blanking on her
name.
She wrote a book called "Emergent Strategy,"Adrienne Maree Brown, who talks about nature in
(05:47):
this way.
And then I started to discover scientists havetalked about how the roots on the trees connect
and they nourish one another.
And I was like, oh my goodness.
This is like when you're going through a hardtime, it's your people that are there to
support you like this underground root systemthat can nourish you and support you and help
(06:10):
you hold on and make it through.
Likewise, you need people to guide you withwhat you have to do, and likely those are not
the trees in your forest because they don'tknow necessarily.
They've not done this.
So, your estate attorney, your taxprofessional, your financial advisor, there's a
(06:32):
group of professionals called after-lossprofessionals that kind of work in this space
and help guide people through this time.
These are the people that guide you throughthis time.
And so we need both.
And I wanted to provide a way to help peopledifferentiate that as well as ask for help from
those different groups of people.
(06:54):
What are some of the most overlooked thingsthat are the most confusing for people when
they're going through grief?
I think one of the most overlooked things forthe griever themselves is how much grief is
just there with you.
I think people think like, oh, I'm having agood day.
It's gone.
(07:16):
And then they smell something.
They hear a song comes on the radio.
They see something, and we call this a griefburst.
Dr.
Alan Wolfelt coined that term grief burst, andI think it's so good because it feels like it
comes on out of the blue, like this wave thatjust knocks you off your feet.
And so, I think for grievers to know when thathappens, that yes, that's how it happens.
(07:39):
It's very natural.
It's how we're wired to be.
There's nothing wrong.
It can be very disorienting to experience it,to go like, oh, I think I'm going for a cup of
coffee at a local coffee store.
I walk in and I hear the song "Turn!
Turn!
Turn!" This happened to me.
"Turn!
Turn!
Turn!" was on the radio or was on the speaker,and that scripture passage was at both of my
(07:59):
parents' funerals, the to everything there's aseason.
And I felt the swell, like, come up, and I waslike, oh my gosh.
I don't I don't really wanna have this here inthis coffee shop right now.
So, but I think it's overlooked by grievers ormaybe not known by them that this is a
completely natural and normal experience.
And they happen a lot early on, but they willhappen for the rest of your life related to
(08:23):
there might be something that just catches youoff guard.
And you'll hear people after they get a littlemore comfortable with grief saying, oh yes, I
have that experience.
I got a little choked up.
Got a little choked up there, but my eyes get alittle misty.
One of the things that I don't think somepeople just don't realize is that by not having
things prepared in advance, having things inorder for their family for when these things so
(08:50):
for instance, my brother passed away inFebruary 2018 and,
you know, it was very unexpected.
Just just happened.
It was very unexpected.
Unexpected.
Whereas with my mom, we kinda knew that therewas gonna be a point where there would be an
end point.
And so there is a difference.
So I would love for you to explain to ouraudience why this is something of importance
(09:14):
and what were your experiences as you've had tomaneuver through grief?
Oh, so, you know, what makes planningimportant?
Yes.
Yes.
So, you know, I have started to say that legacywork is about leading lives that we love and
(09:35):
how we leave those that we love.
And so I think about planning as an act of loveand care and kindness for those we leave.
And like with I don't know how your experiencewas with your brother, but often with
unexpected, we haven't had the chance to havethose conversations or to even say, hey, where
do you pay?
(09:56):
Where's the key for your do you keep things ina safety deposit box?
Where's the for that?
And so if things happen suddenly, we don'tknow, and that can add extra complication to
the people left behind because the world is onthis timetable and it's ticking.
And they're asking you to have certaindeadlines met, and you might not be able to
(10:18):
even meet those.
And so how, you know, a personal story from myown experience, you know, I say my mother was
Excel before Excel existed and best practice isnot to keep your passwords in an Excel
spreadsheet on your computer, but that is whatmy mother did.
And I knew that and the family that I come fromis open related to say, accessing our
(10:41):
technology in that way.
So here, my mother passed completelyunexpectedly and we're trying to get some
things together for the memorial service.
My mother also had the repository of picturesthat had started to be transitioned to digital
on her computer.
So we try to log on and I could hear my fathercussing and I can literally hear him in my
(11:01):
head.
None of us had the outside password to get intoher computer.
Yeah.
So my dad thought he knew it, and then as he'styping it, he goes, I won't say what he said,
but I can hear him saying it.
I guess the computer had made my mom change itaround Christmas time, and whatever it was, it
(11:22):
made her change it to something new anddifferent.
Rather than, I think she it was like a word anda number, and she used to just flip-flop them
back and forth.
And my dad was like, oh, they made her changethat.
But none of us knew what she changed it to.
It might sound really little.
That's so true.
Nowadays, you need a password to get into yourcomputer.
Now you may have all those other passwords, butif you don't have that password, then my
(11:42):
goodness.
So,
we had, like, a week.
It was, like, a week and a half, and my spouseand my brother, like, it took numerous of us to
figure out how to make this work.
And when we got in, we had what we needed.
So, like, that's a small detail of what I sayis like planning and organizing that the will
doesn't cover.
Yes.
You know, another thing in my specific case,because I had two in close proximity,
(12:10):
thankfully, my dad had taken each of myyoungest sister and me to the bank that my
sister or that my parents banked at.
So we had met the branch manager and theteller, but none of us knew the complexity of
getting into a safety deposit box after theowner of the safety deposit box died.
(12:30):
I don't even think my dad knew that.
So,
We knew the real will was in there.
My mother's or my father's, my father's realwill was in there.
But how do we get this real will thing?
That even though the branch manager knew whomy—like, it just started to become this whole
complicated thing that was like, oh mygoodness.
(12:52):
People don't really think about the complexitywhen someone passes, how many things.
And I feel like I'm an oldest child.
And you, as an oldest child, you have atendency to lead that way of all the things
that need to be cared for.
Right?
And so that can be a very—you're already tryingto deal with your own—actually, what I found
(13:14):
was you don't deal with your own emotionsbecause you're so busy taking care of
everything.
Then the things happen or what you were sayingwith walking into a coffee shop or that set for
us.
It's a certain song or it's a scent when you'recooking, you know, a moment, something that
comes up that is a memory and it's a trigger.
(13:35):
And so it's interesting how you'll—you know,it's been three years now for my mom.
Still Mother's Day, for instance.
Yes.
Mother's
Day.
You know?
Yeah.
Have this lovely Facebook, you know, memoriesthat come up and then you're like, when in our
case, when Mom was sick, you know, she wantedus to track so all her friends from everywhere
would know what was going on when she had herbrain surgery and all of those things.
(13:59):
And so you don't realize what's gonna triggerit, but then you always have to be in that
protective mode of I've just got things to takecare of.
Just have to take care of that.
So what advice would you give someone who isleading the way, and what is it that your book
will help them in preparing?
Because if you have a large family, there areother situations that are gonna come up.
(14:22):
What would you say is the best way in which toprepare everyone, and how does your book help
them do that, "A New Path"?
Yeah.
Well, I think so a place to start is if you arethe person that's the glue and the rock who's
holding it all together, if you're the personthat, you know, has the responsibility, one of
(14:45):
the things that "A New Path" talks about is howto build space in to grieve while you do the
things.
So in my one story, I talk about how I washarvesting losses by selling stock at the end
of the calendar year.
This was advised by the financial advisor, andI felt one of those grief bursts coming on, and
(15:05):
I had the space to allow it to happen.
And rather than pushing it down, I was like,wait a second, I'm going to just let this flow.
I'm going to, I'm going to cry while I sellstock, and I cried while I sold stock.
And it felt really good, and as a, as atherapist and a, you know, the clergy person in
(15:27):
me knows that if we allow emotions to come, torise, crest, and fall, that they go.
They move on.
Emotions are emotion.
So that moment, I started building in time whenI would do estate work to allow myself to cry
and have some grief with.
When, I mean, not necessarily when I'm signingthe paper, but I knew to have some space and
(15:53):
time after I signed the paper, whether that wasat home or in my car or taking a walk, I needed
time and space for that.
And so I have a ritual in "A New Path" to kindof guide people into how can you create a
little moment for yourself that allows you tobuild this in?
(16:13):
Each month, there's space in the book toreflect on what you notice about your grief.
How is it?
And then going back to the trees for whatsupport you might need and what permission you
might give yourself.
Related to how can you use this to help otherpeople, I think one of the best gifts the book
gives is small ways to talk about this.
(16:35):
So rather than being like, well, here's what Iwant to have happen when I die, or what do you
want to have happen when you die, which arereally big and overwhelming and scary, the book
allows you to be able to open it to a smallsection and say, okay, I'm going to need to
know how to close down all the utilities atyour house, or I'm going to need to tell
(16:59):
somebody how to close down the utilities.
I can ask that question, or I can write thatdown for somebody.
I have a pet.
If the pet is still here, how do I want thatpet cared for?
Or my person has a pet.
I can say, you know, I've just been, I listenedto this podcast and this woman was on it, and
(17:23):
it got me thinking about, you know, you havethis beloved dog.
You want your dog here for.
That is so good.
Because I've had to deal with that too.
It's so interesting.
One conversation that we had, when I saw youspeaking at an event, was having two people,
not just one.
(17:44):
I really feel like our audience needs to hearthat because so many times, you know, you
assign a person, but I know I'm of thatthought.
I'm a forward thinker.
So I'm always thinking, but if that person isnot available, you know, life happens and, you
know, things change in life.
Who are the two people that I trust enough tohand everything over to them so that they can
(18:09):
handle whatever needs to be handled?
And then, you know, and then you know thatthere's emotion that goes on.
So explain
that thought process.
Well, first of all, I would say yes.
Please do have two, maybe even a third on deck,as people, first of all, because it's a lot and
(18:29):
the emotions do come with it, and also becausewhat if that first person is not able to do it?
So having a backup and a backup backup, Ithink, is really important.
I think talking about it ahead of time with thepeople is super important.
And being able to be open about, like, what arethe gifts and the talents that these three
(18:52):
people have.
So, for example, if you are a small businessowner, you might have your partner or your
spouse be the first person, but the reality isif something happens to you, your spouse or
partner might not have the capacity to do a tonwith the business.
It doesn't mean they need to be out of ittotally, but might there be another trusted
(19:15):
colleague or a professional that you know thatyou could also have share part of that
responsibility?
So that when you need to, say, have clientsreferred elsewhere or do that contingency plan
with clients or pay those bills, that yourspouse and this person could know one another
(19:36):
and be able to say, oh, this is what mycontingency person for the business going to
do.
Even though the spouse might be doing X or Y,someone else is gonna take over the day-to-day
of that.
And then we talked about that ahead of time,and that's okay.
That's right.
That's right.
And that's important.
I feel so many people don't think about thesepieces.
(19:58):
And when we had talked about it, I immediatelysaid, I've got that set up.
I've already had the conversation.
You did.
You did.
But the thing is that it blows my mind how manypeople don't think about these things.
We're not all gonna live forever.
Sorry.
That's just kind of how it is.
But I just feel like having that seamless wayin which to help people transition is gonna
(20:21):
actually make it so much simpler.
I do wanna add, you know, I wanna show everyonethe book for those who wanna do it in person.
So this is "A New Path." I love this.
I love the way that it's laid out.
I love even the things that you don't thinkabout, you know, and just having that.
And then the journaling.
The journaling is important because so manytimes, even when you go and look back on how
(20:45):
you were thinking at one point and you can kindof actually start to see how you've improved as
time has
gone.
How how's your journey going?
Yes.
Right.
So so tell me, what what are your hopes, youknow, for our audience in reading this book, in
working on this, in preparing, and then alsowhat's next for you?
(21:06):
Yeah.
Well, my hope is that as you if you are usingthe book, that you realize that it's not a book
to keep on the shelf or a book to read atnight, that it's a book to journey with you.
My deepest desire is that it's dog-eared, andit's written in, and it's a companion, because
I realize we all need somebody walking with usin this journey, or something walking with us.
(21:31):
My next hope would be that you give yourselfpermission to just go at the pace that's right
and true for you.
I know if you're planning in advance, it takestime and capacity to do that.
So small steps, that's one of the reasons whythere are the steps laid out.
If you've lost a person and you are working ona timetable that's not yours, because our world
(21:55):
requires certain timetables, I just invite youto use the book as a resource to support you,
but also a way to maybe ask for help, not justof your professionals, but you might have
friends that could be willing to help write thenotification letters or sit with you when you
make the calls or go with you to the bank whenyou have to close out that account.
(22:18):
You know, sometimes we have to be, we have tophysically be there now because of all the laws
related to identity.
I understand that.
And you can ask somebody, it's okay to asksomebody to go with you.
All those people that say at the funeral, Iwant to help you, I believe they mean they want
to help you, but they might not know.
And so, my hope is that the book gives you away to ask for help.
(22:42):
Even if you just take a picture of it and textit to the person and say, can you help me with
this?
Do that.
Do that.
I would like to ask you, is there somethingthat you wish you would have done differently?
Do you not know, like, you know, having hadyour mom, you know, go pass without, you know,
it was kind of sudden when, when somebody hadgone past this sudden.
(23:06):
What do you wish would have been different?
Well, my parents updated their healthcare proxypaperwork, their advance directives over COVID.
And I had a Zoom call with them because theyasked me to be that person, and we talked about
it and I'm super grateful, but I wish I wouldhave asked for the final copy.
(23:31):
I had a draft version, and their retirementcommunity that they lived in also, it appeared,
didn't have a fully finalized version.
In fact, we never found the finalized version.
And that was really problematic with myfather's illness.
I mean, I'm grateful I had what I had and I'mgrateful that I had the conversations because
(23:51):
that gave me something to stand on.
But when I was talking with medical careprofessionals and my dad was on a ventilator,
and my sisters and I were becoming clear thatthis was not how my dad would want to live, we
had a draft version, not the fully authorizedversion.
That's really good to give our audience thatthought.
(24:12):
Because I remember this being a thing as wellbecause I'm so ultra about having those
documents.
And the thing is, how do you help the personwho's doing this and then the others who do not
know all that's involved?
How do you help navigate that, you know,between family?
(24:34):
Do you know, like, have you had experience withanyone who's had to navigate that?
I mean,
in addition to my own experience with my ownfamily, navigating with families, my own
experience, I would say, I want to be mindfulrelated to, I try to be judicious about what I
share about what I know with people.
That said, in several cases, I've worked withsome people for whom having a conversation with
(25:01):
me or having a one-off session to sort ofexplore all of this has led them to go back and
have conversations differently with theirpeople on the pre side.
And in one case, it actually led to parents,you know, a Gen X adult child having a
conversation and Gen X parents going back andredoing some of their documents because it was
(25:23):
just an oversight.
That was it was an oversight.
And so I would say doing that, as well as sortof getting in the idea of that this isn't a
once-and-done thing.
It's an iterative process that we revisit.
These are living documents.
These are living things.
And so it's easy to say, oh, I'm done.
And they're in a box or they're in a safetydeposit box.
(25:47):
And so I'm trying to change the conversation tobe about how can we start having more
conversation about this earlier and often, andhave it become more of a normalized part of how
we operate as families.
So these families, the families I'm talkingabout, have maybe discomfort about having these
(26:08):
conversations, but there's not a lot ofunderlying family drama there.
When you have a family that's a high-conflictfamily with a lot of ongoing strife, this is
where working with a mediator and an attorneylikely becomes advantageous to you because you
(26:31):
need more clear-cut guidance and a very clearoutside arbiter.
So I'm working with people who are seekingeducation, might not know what they don't know,
are uncomfortable having the conversations, butoverall wanting to work together.
(26:51):
When you're in a high-conflict situation wherethere's a lot of power and control dynamics,
that's when seeking mediation is often ahelpful resource.
And there are mediators out there that this iswhat they do.
People go to mediators for divorce.
They also go to mediators for things like this.
So, if you don't want to hire an attorney, youcan hire a mediator to talk with you about some
(27:16):
of these situations.
If you wanted our audience to be left withanything, what would you say that is?
Is there anything that comes to mind that wemight have left out?
I think the biggest thing I would want for youto know, the audience to know, is if you are
feeling overwhelmed or unsure or having like,wait
(27:39):
a second, what's wrong with me that I don'thave X or Y done?
Or what's wrong with me that I'm starting to dothis and I feel stuck?
Or what's wrong with me to just say, mygoodness, this is hard stuff.
We are not taught these things in school.
We're not, I mean, unless you're going toschool to be a professional leading in this,
we're not taught these things.
(27:59):
We're not taught about grief.
We're not taught about end of life, and we'renot taught about all of the logistics.
And so my goodness, if you're struggling andfeeling like this is a lot, it's because it is,
and help is available.
And it's just one, one step at a time.
One step at a time.
Megan, I've really enjoyed our conversationtoday because I feel like everyone, no matter
(28:23):
what, whether you're in business, whetheryou're just someone who's listening because
you, you know, you happened to cross ourchannel.
I am just excited because this is a topic thataffects everyone no matter who you are.
And so if someone is feeling that and they wantto get in touch with you and they want to reach
out, how would they find you?
Sure.
I mean, you can go to LinkedIn, Facebook,Instagram, all of those things.
(28:44):
My website, anewpath.com, there is a servicestab and, you know, there is even a one-off 45
minutes.
Like, I just know I need a thing.
You can just sign up for 45 minutes just tokind of orient, get a little heard, get some,
kind of some overview of what's happening.
(29:05):
And so that's available to you.
So again, what you want to do is make sure thatyou look Megan up.
She is on LinkedIn on various of the sociallinks, and we will have those in the additional
notes.
It's Megan Malick.
And I just thank you so much.
This was very informative, very advantageousfor our audience.
I feel like everyone can benefit from thisinformation in preparation.
(29:27):
Thanks so much.
Very appreciated.
You have a wonderful day and thank you forbeing our guest today.
You're welcome.
And so again, this is Katherine, your host withThe Beyond Business Podcast.
Excited to have had Megan Malick with us heretoday and thank you again for listening.
Well, if you made it to this point, then youmade it to the end.
(29:52):
And you are my star.
And I just want to thank you from the bottom ofmy heart.
I hope that you enjoyed the conversation withtoday's guest.
And if you did, please leave us a review onApple Podcasts and Spotify, and share this
episode with others who may be interested inthis topic.
Also, please feel free to let us know whattopics you'd like to see covered in future
(30:14):
episodes.
Get in touch in the comments or in RocketGrowth's social media platforms to have
conversations with me.
My booking link is in the comments.
See you next week for an all-new episode.
I am Katherine Martín-Fisher, and I helpbusiness owners who have lost their vision
because they're struggling with cash flow,sales, and marketing, which also affects their
company culture.
By showing them how to implement proven systemsthat increase their revenue by 30% in 90 days,
this allows them to reignite the passion andthat big dream that they started with.
(00:28):
So the reason that I started this podcast wasto celebrate businesses that have overcome
adversity and have come out on the other sideof it.
And I want you to know that you are not alone.
Good afternoon.
This is Katherine, your host with The BeyondBusiness Podcast.
I'm so excited because we have Megan Malickwith us here today.
(00:52):
And Megan is supporting heart-led and intuitivesouls through grief, legacy, and life's
transitions with empathy, clarity, andsoul-aligned guidance for navigating loss and
logistics.
She's also the author of "A New Path," which isa workbook that helps to plan for the planning
of the first year of grief and settling yourperson's affairs.
(01:13):
I am so excited to have this conversationtoday.
Megan, thank you so much for being here withus.
Thank you so much for having me.
I am delighted.
I am delighted.
So Megan, you started by, well, you have thisbook, "A New Path," and it's a workbook for
guidance.
What led you to write this book?
(01:35):
Well, what led me to write the book is my ownpersonal experience.
I wrote the book that I wish I would have hadwhen I was going through my own experience
settling my parents' affairs.
Actually, in the summer of 2022, I went toStaples and I repurposed one of those big
(01:56):
planners because I'm an old-school person wholikes things on paper.
And the beginning of the book started withthat, and it grew when friends of mine were
losing their parents shortly after I lost mine,and they were coming seeking support or
guidance.
And I didn't have much time, but I did havesome knowledge.
I started to type some things up and send it tothem, and they said, this is really good.
(02:19):
You should one thing led to another, and I keptgoing, and there you go.
So, I'd love for you to share with ouraudience, you know, had your own personal
experience.
And I know that you're also a speaker.
And one of the things that I would love to knowis what was your experience in loss and grief
(02:39):
that you had to deal with?
So the most recent loss and grief is inJanuary, or the most recent grief and loss that
I've experienced was on January 2.
Mother unexpectedly died.
The autopsy was inconclusive, in fact.
And my father became ill with pneumonia fairlyshortly after Mom died, about three weeks, four
(03:04):
weeks later.
And in less than a season, in less than threemonths, he also died.
And so what I, in addition to the grief and theloss, what I discovered was all that I had to
do because both of them were living lives.
They were engaged.
And, although they were newly retired, theywere full in their life.
(03:27):
And so there was a lot of work to settle theiraffairs is what we call it.
But I talk with people about how we kind ofslowly unravel and kind of take apart and
dissolve or distribute what was there.
And so I was having to do both at the same timewhere I was having massive grief because those
were big unexpected losses and having a lot todissolve and disintegrate and settle at the
(03:54):
same time.
Wow.
So as you're managing all of this, you've, youknow, obviously, you came up with this great
thing.
One of the things I wanna tell you that Ireally enjoyed about your book and it really
resonated with me is there's this part that yousay in here.
And so I would love for you to explain this.
In here on page 57, it says, who are my treesto support me?
(04:19):
And who are the forest rangers to guide me?
Yeah.
What do you mean by that?
So what I mean by the trees to support me andthe forest rangers to guide me is that I see us
as having people in our lives that support us.
Those are our friends, our family, ourcommunity members that we're connected with,
(04:41):
and our forest rangers are the professionalswe're hiring.
And I came up with this idea about a year aftermy dad had passed away.
So a little over a year after my mom, myhusband and I were out in California, and we
had the privilege of hiking in one of theRedwood forests.
It was shortly after the fires had happened andthe park was open.
(05:05):
And journeying into the forest, you could seethese trees that had been singed by fire.
And I was like, how are these trees stillstanding?
And there were placards by the trees thattalked about the root structure of them and how
the roots of the trees are connected to theseother roots.
(05:27):
And they do distress calls to other trees.
And I thought, oh my gosh, this is like me andwhat I've been through.
And then I got curious and discovered there's awriter named, my gosh, I'm blanking on her
name.
She wrote a book called "Emergent Strategy,"Adrienne Maree Brown, who talks about nature in
(05:47):
this way.
And then I started to discover scientists havetalked about how the roots on the trees connect
and they nourish one another.
And I was like, oh my goodness.
This is like when you're going through a hardtime, it's your people that are there to
support you like this underground root systemthat can nourish you and support you and help
(06:10):
you hold on and make it through.
Likewise, you need people to guide you withwhat you have to do, and likely those are not
the trees in your forest because they don'tknow necessarily.
They've not done this.
So, your estate attorney, your taxprofessional, your financial advisor, there's a
(06:32):
group of professionals called after-lossprofessionals that kind of work in this space
and help guide people through this time.
These are the people that guide you throughthis time.
And so we need both.
And I wanted to provide a way to help peopledifferentiate that as well as ask for help from
those different groups of people.
(06:54):
What are some of the most overlooked thingsthat are the most confusing for people when
they're going through grief?
I think one of the most overlooked things forthe griever themselves is how much grief is
just there with you.
I think people think like, oh, I'm having agood day.
It's gone.
(07:16):
And then they smell something.
They hear a song comes on the radio.
They see something, and we call this a griefburst.
Dr.
Alan Wolfelt coined that term grief burst, andI think it's so good because it feels like it
comes on out of the blue, like this wave thatjust knocks you off your feet.
And so, I think for grievers to know when thathappens, that yes, that's how it happens.
(07:39):
It's very natural.
It's how we're wired to be.
There's nothing wrong.
It can be very disorienting to experience it,to go like, oh, I think I'm going for a cup of
coffee at a local coffee store.
I walk in and I hear the song "Turn!
Turn!
Turn!" This happened to me.
"Turn!
Turn!
Turn!" was on the radio or was on the speaker,and that scripture passage was at both of my
(07:59):
parents' funerals, the to everything there's aseason.
And I felt the swell, like, come up, and I waslike, oh my gosh.
I don't I don't really wanna have this here inthis coffee shop right now.
So, but I think it's overlooked by grievers ormaybe not known by them that this is a
completely natural and normal experience.
And they happen a lot early on, but they willhappen for the rest of your life related to
(08:23):
there might be something that just catches youoff guard.
And you'll hear people after they get a littlemore comfortable with grief saying, oh yes, I
have that experience.
I got a little choked up.
Got a little choked up there, but my eyes get alittle misty.
One of the things that I don't think somepeople just don't realize is that by not having
things prepared in advance, having things inorder for their family for when these things so
(08:50):
for instance, my brother passed away inFebruary 2018 and,
you know, it was very unexpected.
Just just happened.
It was very unexpected.
Unexpected.
Whereas with my mom, we kinda knew that therewas gonna be a point where there would be an
end point.
And so there is a difference.
So I would love for you to explain to ouraudience why this is something of importance
(09:14):
and what were your experiences as you've had tomaneuver through grief?
Oh, so, you know, what makes planningimportant?
Yes.
Yes.
So, you know, I have started to say that legacywork is about leading lives that we love and
(09:35):
how we leave those that we love.
And so I think about planning as an act of loveand care and kindness for those we leave.
And like with I don't know how your experiencewas with your brother, but often with
unexpected, we haven't had the chance to havethose conversations or to even say, hey, where
do you pay?
(09:56):
Where's the key for your do you keep things ina safety deposit box?
Where's the for that?
And so if things happen suddenly, we don'tknow, and that can add extra complication to
the people left behind because the world is onthis timetable and it's ticking.
And they're asking you to have certaindeadlines met, and you might not be able to
(10:18):
even meet those.
And so how, you know, a personal story from myown experience, you know, I say my mother was
Excel before Excel existed and best practice isnot to keep your passwords in an Excel
spreadsheet on your computer, but that is whatmy mother did.
And I knew that and the family that I come fromis open related to say, accessing our
(10:41):
technology in that way.
So here, my mother passed completelyunexpectedly and we're trying to get some
things together for the memorial service.
My mother also had the repository of picturesthat had started to be transitioned to digital
on her computer.
So we try to log on and I could hear my fathercussing and I can literally hear him in my
(11:01):
head.
None of us had the outside password to get intoher computer.
Yeah.
So my dad thought he knew it, and then as he'styping it, he goes, I won't say what he said,
but I can hear him saying it.
I guess the computer had made my mom change itaround Christmas time, and whatever it was, it
(11:22):
made her change it to something new anddifferent.
Rather than, I think she it was like a word anda number, and she used to just flip-flop them
back and forth.
And my dad was like, oh, they made her changethat.
But none of us knew what she changed it to.
It might sound really little.
That's so true.
Nowadays, you need a password to get into yourcomputer.
Now you may have all those other passwords, butif you don't have that password, then my
(11:42):
goodness.
So,
we had, like, a week.
It was, like, a week and a half, and my spouseand my brother, like, it took numerous of us to
figure out how to make this work.
And when we got in, we had what we needed.
So, like, that's a small detail of what I sayis like planning and organizing that the will
doesn't cover.
Yes.
You know, another thing in my specific case,because I had two in close proximity,
(12:10):
thankfully, my dad had taken each of myyoungest sister and me to the bank that my
sister or that my parents banked at.
So we had met the branch manager and theteller, but none of us knew the complexity of
getting into a safety deposit box after theowner of the safety deposit box died.
(12:30):
I don't even think my dad knew that.
So,
We knew the real will was in there.
My mother's or my father's, my father's realwill was in there.
But how do we get this real will thing?
That even though the branch manager knew whomy—like, it just started to become this whole
complicated thing that was like, oh mygoodness.
(12:52):
People don't really think about the complexitywhen someone passes, how many things.
And I feel like I'm an oldest child.
And you, as an oldest child, you have atendency to lead that way of all the things
that need to be cared for.
Right?
And so that can be a very—you're already tryingto deal with your own—actually, what I found
(13:14):
was you don't deal with your own emotionsbecause you're so busy taking care of
everything.
Then the things happen or what you were sayingwith walking into a coffee shop or that set for
us.
It's a certain song or it's a scent when you'recooking, you know, a moment, something that
comes up that is a memory and it's a trigger.
(13:35):
And so it's interesting how you'll—you know,it's been three years now for my mom.
Still Mother's Day, for instance.
Yes.
Mother's
Day.
You know?
Yeah.
Have this lovely Facebook, you know, memoriesthat come up and then you're like, when in our
case, when Mom was sick, you know, she wantedus to track so all her friends from everywhere
would know what was going on when she had herbrain surgery and all of those things.
(13:59):
And so you don't realize what's gonna triggerit, but then you always have to be in that
protective mode of I've just got things to takecare of.
Just have to take care of that.
So what advice would you give someone who isleading the way, and what is it that your book
will help them in preparing?
Because if you have a large family, there areother situations that are gonna come up.
(14:22):
What would you say is the best way in which toprepare everyone, and how does your book help
them do that, "A New Path"?
Yeah.
Well, I think so a place to start is if you arethe person that's the glue and the rock who's
holding it all together, if you're the personthat, you know, has the responsibility, one of
(14:45):
the things that "A New Path" talks about is howto build space in to grieve while you do the
things.
So in my one story, I talk about how I washarvesting losses by selling stock at the end
of the calendar year.
This was advised by the financial advisor, andI felt one of those grief bursts coming on, and
(15:05):
I had the space to allow it to happen.
And rather than pushing it down, I was like,wait a second, I'm going to just let this flow.
I'm going to, I'm going to cry while I sellstock, and I cried while I sold stock.
And it felt really good, and as a, as atherapist and a, you know, the clergy person in
(15:27):
me knows that if we allow emotions to come, torise, crest, and fall, that they go.
They move on.
Emotions are emotion.
So that moment, I started building in time whenI would do estate work to allow myself to cry
and have some grief with.
When, I mean, not necessarily when I'm signingthe paper, but I knew to have some space and
(15:53):
time after I signed the paper, whether that wasat home or in my car or taking a walk, I needed
time and space for that.
And so I have a ritual in "A New Path" to kindof guide people into how can you create a
little moment for yourself that allows you tobuild this in?
(16:13):
Each month, there's space in the book toreflect on what you notice about your grief.
How is it?
And then going back to the trees for whatsupport you might need and what permission you
might give yourself.
Related to how can you use this to help otherpeople, I think one of the best gifts the book
gives is small ways to talk about this.
(16:35):
So rather than being like, well, here's what Iwant to have happen when I die, or what do you
want to have happen when you die, which arereally big and overwhelming and scary, the book
allows you to be able to open it to a smallsection and say, okay, I'm going to need to
know how to close down all the utilities atyour house, or I'm going to need to tell
(16:59):
somebody how to close down the utilities.
I can ask that question, or I can write thatdown for somebody.
I have a pet.
If the pet is still here, how do I want thatpet cared for?
Or my person has a pet.
I can say, you know, I've just been, I listenedto this podcast and this woman was on it, and
(17:23):
it got me thinking about, you know, you havethis beloved dog.
You want your dog here for.
That is so good.
Because I've had to deal with that too.
It's so interesting.
One conversation that we had, when I saw youspeaking at an event, was having two people,
not just one.
(17:44):
I really feel like our audience needs to hearthat because so many times, you know, you
assign a person, but I know I'm of thatthought.
I'm a forward thinker.
So I'm always thinking, but if that person isnot available, you know, life happens and, you
know, things change in life.
Who are the two people that I trust enough tohand everything over to them so that they can
(18:09):
handle whatever needs to be handled?
And then, you know, and then you know thatthere's emotion that goes on.
So explain
that thought process.
Well, first of all, I would say yes.
Please do have two, maybe even a third on deck,as people, first of all, because it's a lot and
(18:29):
the emotions do come with it, and also becausewhat if that first person is not able to do it?
So having a backup and a backup backup, Ithink, is really important.
I think talking about it ahead of time with thepeople is super important.
And being able to be open about, like, what arethe gifts and the talents that these three
(18:52):
people have.
So, for example, if you are a small businessowner, you might have your partner or your
spouse be the first person, but the reality isif something happens to you, your spouse or
partner might not have the capacity to do a tonwith the business.
It doesn't mean they need to be out of ittotally, but might there be another trusted
(19:15):
colleague or a professional that you know thatyou could also have share part of that
responsibility?
So that when you need to, say, have clientsreferred elsewhere or do that contingency plan
with clients or pay those bills, that yourspouse and this person could know one another
(19:36):
and be able to say, oh, this is what mycontingency person for the business going to
do.
Even though the spouse might be doing X or Y,someone else is gonna take over the day-to-day
of that.
And then we talked about that ahead of time,and that's okay.
That's right.
That's right.
And that's important.
I feel so many people don't think about thesepieces.
(19:58):
And when we had talked about it, I immediatelysaid, I've got that set up.
I've already had the conversation.
You did.
You did.
But the thing is that it blows my mind how manypeople don't think about these things.
We're not all gonna live forever.
Sorry.
That's just kind of how it is.
But I just feel like having that seamless wayin which to help people transition is gonna
(20:21):
actually make it so much simpler.
I do wanna add, you know, I wanna show everyonethe book for those who wanna do it in person.
So this is "A New Path." I love this.
I love the way that it's laid out.
I love even the things that you don't thinkabout, you know, and just having that.
And then the journaling.
The journaling is important because so manytimes, even when you go and look back on how
(20:45):
you were thinking at one point and you can kindof actually start to see how you've improved as
time has
gone.
How how's your journey going?
Yes.
Right.
So so tell me, what what are your hopes, youknow, for our audience in reading this book, in
working on this, in preparing, and then alsowhat's next for you?
(21:06):
Yeah.
Well, my hope is that as you if you are usingthe book, that you realize that it's not a book
to keep on the shelf or a book to read atnight, that it's a book to journey with you.
My deepest desire is that it's dog-eared, andit's written in, and it's a companion, because
I realize we all need somebody walking with usin this journey, or something walking with us.
(21:31):
My next hope would be that you give yourselfpermission to just go at the pace that's right
and true for you.
I know if you're planning in advance, it takestime and capacity to do that.
So small steps, that's one of the reasons whythere are the steps laid out.
If you've lost a person and you are working ona timetable that's not yours, because our world
(21:55):
requires certain timetables, I just invite youto use the book as a resource to support you,
but also a way to maybe ask for help, not justof your professionals, but you might have
friends that could be willing to help write thenotification letters or sit with you when you
make the calls or go with you to the bank whenyou have to close out that account.
(22:18):
You know, sometimes we have to be, we have tophysically be there now because of all the laws
related to identity.
I understand that.
And you can ask somebody, it's okay to asksomebody to go with you.
All those people that say at the funeral, Iwant to help you, I believe they mean they want
to help you, but they might not know.
And so, my hope is that the book gives you away to ask for help.
(22:42):
Even if you just take a picture of it and textit to the person and say, can you help me with
this?
Do that.
Do that.
I would like to ask you, is there somethingthat you wish you would have done differently?
Do you not know, like, you know, having hadyour mom, you know, go pass without, you know,
it was kind of sudden when, when somebody hadgone past this sudden.
(23:06):
What do you wish would have been different?
Well, my parents updated their healthcare proxypaperwork, their advance directives over COVID.
And I had a Zoom call with them because theyasked me to be that person, and we talked about
it and I'm super grateful, but I wish I wouldhave asked for the final copy.
(23:31):
I had a draft version, and their retirementcommunity that they lived in also, it appeared,
didn't have a fully finalized version.
In fact, we never found the finalized version.
And that was really problematic with myfather's illness.
I mean, I'm grateful I had what I had and I'mgrateful that I had the conversations because
(23:51):
that gave me something to stand on.
But when I was talking with medical careprofessionals and my dad was on a ventilator,
and my sisters and I were becoming clear thatthis was not how my dad would want to live, we
had a draft version, not the fully authorizedversion.
That's really good to give our audience thatthought.
(24:12):
Because I remember this being a thing as wellbecause I'm so ultra about having those
documents.
And the thing is, how do you help the personwho's doing this and then the others who do not
know all that's involved?
How do you help navigate that, you know,between family?
(24:34):
Do you know, like, have you had experience withanyone who's had to navigate that?
I mean,
in addition to my own experience with my ownfamily, navigating with families, my own
experience, I would say, I want to be mindfulrelated to, I try to be judicious about what I
share about what I know with people.
That said, in several cases, I've worked withsome people for whom having a conversation with
(25:01):
me or having a one-off session to sort ofexplore all of this has led them to go back and
have conversations differently with theirpeople on the pre side.
And in one case, it actually led to parents,you know, a Gen X adult child having a
conversation and Gen X parents going back andredoing some of their documents because it was
(25:23):
just an oversight.
That was it was an oversight.
And so I would say doing that, as well as sortof getting in the idea of that this isn't a
once-and-done thing.
It's an iterative process that we revisit.
These are living documents.
These are living things.
And so it's easy to say, oh, I'm done.
And they're in a box or they're in a safetydeposit box.
(25:47):
And so I'm trying to change the conversation tobe about how can we start having more
conversation about this earlier and often, andhave it become more of a normalized part of how
we operate as families.
So these families, the families I'm talkingabout, have maybe discomfort about having these
(26:08):
conversations, but there's not a lot ofunderlying family drama there.
When you have a family that's a high-conflictfamily with a lot of ongoing strife, this is
where working with a mediator and an attorneylikely becomes advantageous to you because you
(26:31):
need more clear-cut guidance and a very clearoutside arbiter.
So I'm working with people who are seekingeducation, might not know what they don't know,
are uncomfortable having the conversations, butoverall wanting to work together.
(26:51):
When you're in a high-conflict situation wherethere's a lot of power and control dynamics,
that's when seeking mediation is often ahelpful resource.
And there are mediators out there that this iswhat they do.
People go to mediators for divorce.
They also go to mediators for things like this.
So, if you don't want to hire an attorney, youcan hire a mediator to talk with you about some
(27:16):
of these situations.
If you wanted our audience to be left withanything, what would you say that is?
Is there anything that comes to mind that wemight have left out?
I think the biggest thing I would want for youto know, the audience to know, is if you are
feeling overwhelmed or unsure or having like,wait
(27:39):
a second, what's wrong with me that I don'thave X or Y done?
Or what's wrong with me that I'm starting to dothis and I feel stuck?
Or what's wrong with me to just say, mygoodness, this is hard stuff.
We are not taught these things in school.
We're not, I mean, unless you're going toschool to be a professional leading in this,
we're not taught these things.
(27:59):
We're not taught about grief.
We're not taught about end of life, and we'renot taught about all of the logistics.
And so my goodness, if you're struggling andfeeling like this is a lot, it's because it is,
and help is available.
And it's just one, one step at a time.
One step at a time.
Megan, I've really enjoyed our conversationtoday because I feel like everyone, no matter
(28:23):
what, whether you're in business, whetheryou're just someone who's listening because
you, you know, you happened to cross ourchannel.
I am just excited because this is a topic thataffects everyone no matter who you are.
And so if someone is feeling that and they wantto get in touch with you and they want to reach
out, how would they find you?
Sure.
I mean, you can go to LinkedIn, Facebook,Instagram, all of those things.
(28:44):
My website, anewpath.com, there is a servicestab and, you know, there is even a one-off 45
minutes.
Like, I just know I need a thing.
You can just sign up for 45 minutes just tokind of orient, get a little heard, get some,
kind of some overview of what's happening.
(29:05):
And so that's available to you.
So again, what you want to do is make sure thatyou look Megan up.
She is on LinkedIn on various of the sociallinks, and we will have those in the additional
notes.
It's Megan Malick.
And I just thank you so much.
This was very informative, very advantageousfor our audience.
I feel like everyone can benefit from thisinformation in preparation.
(29:27):
Thanks so much.
Very appreciated.
You have a wonderful day and thank you forbeing our guest today.
You're welcome.
And so again, this is Katherine, your host withThe Beyond Business Podcast.
Excited to have had Megan Malick with us heretoday and thank you again for listening.
Well, if you made it to this point, then youmade it to the end.
(29:52):
And you are my star.
And I just want to thank you from the bottom ofmy heart.
I hope that you enjoyed the conversation withtoday's guest.
And if you did, please leave us a review onApple Podcasts and Spotify, and share this
episode with others who may be interested inthis topic.
Also, please feel free to let us know whattopics you'd like to see covered in future
(30:14):
episodes.
Get in touch in the comments or in RocketGrowth's social media platforms to have
conversations with me.
My booking link is in the comments.
See you next week for an all-new episode.
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