July 29, 2024 • 56 mins
Ever wondered what sets a service dog apart from therapy dogs and emotional support animals? Get ready for a deep dive into the legal frameworks, specifically the Americans with Disabilities Act and the Air Carrier Access Act, and how they impact the lives of individuals with disabilities.
Veronica Sanchez, the distinguished founder of Cooperative Paws Service Dog Coach shares her wealth of experience and anecdotal wisdom, shedding light on the profound responsibilities and challenges faced by service dogs and their handlers.
We also dive into the topic of encountering off-leash dogs, which can be a daunting experience for service dog handlers, especially in bustling urban settings, and explore effective strategies for maintaining service dog focus and composure amidst such distractions. Veronica also discusses the psychological impacts on service dogs and the necessity of downtime for their well-being in this enlightening episode.
ABOUT VERONICA:
Veronica Sanchez M.Ed, CDBC, CPDT-KA, is the founder of Cooperative Paws Service Dog Coach™, a certificate program for professional trainers in service dog training. She offers a variety of online courses, speaks and writes on service dogs for professional associations, and is the author of "Service Dog Coaching: A Guide for Pet Dog Trainers." Her background also includes a Masters in Education from George Mason University, and a certificate in Brain Research in Education from the University of Washington. Veronica has experience working with owner-trainers as well as working with non-profit service dog programs. Her interest in service dogs is both personal and professional. She has a disability herself, generalized dystonia, and has trained her own dogs to assist as service dogs.
Instagram: @cooperativepaws
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/cooperativepaws/
Website: https://cooperativepaws.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
In this episode we dive into the world of service
dogs and some of the myths andmisconceptions that surround the
tasks they perform, as well aswhat happens when a service dog
displays aggression and evensome strategies on what to do if
a service dog is attacked byanother dog.
Veronica Sanchez, the founderof Cooperative Paws Service Dog
Coach, a certificate program forprofessional trainers in
(00:25):
service dog training, joins mefor this enlightening
conversation.
She offers a variety of onlinecourses, speaks and writes on
service dogs for professionalassociations and is the author
of Service Dog Coaching, a guidefor pet dog trainers.
Her background also includes amaster's in education from
George Mason University and acertificate in brain research
(00:45):
and education from theUniversity of Washington.
Veronica has experience workingwith owner trainers as well as
working with non-profit servicedog programs.
Her interest in service dogs isboth personal and professional.
She has a disability herselfgeneralized dystonia and has
trained her own dogs to assistas service dogs.
(01:06):
And if you are enjoying thebitey end of the dog, you can
support the podcast by going toaggressivedogcom, where there's
a variety of resources to learnmore about helping dogs with
aggression issues, including theupcoming aggression and dogs
conference happening fromoctober 11th to 13th 2024 in
scottsdale, arizona, with bothin-person and online options.
You can also learn more aboutthe Aggression and Dogs Master
(01:27):
Course, which is the mostcomprehensive course available
anywhere in the world forlearning how to work with and
help dogs with aggression issues.
I also have a wide variety ofwebinars, upcoming courses,
videos and articles, all fromthe foremost experts in training
and behavior.
We are your one-stop shop forall things related to aggression
in dogs.
Hey, everyone, welcome back tothe Bitey End of the Dog.
(01:51):
I'm very excited for thisepisode because we're going to
be talking about service dogswith Veronica Sanchez, who is an
expert on this topic, and I'mreally, really looking forward
to diving in, because this isactually a topic I don't know
much about, so I'm excited tohave Veronica here.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Oh, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
So let's dive in here , because we have a very broad
audience, some folks deeplyknowledgeable about this topic
and some others maybe justwanting to learn more.
So can you define first of all,like, what is a service dog?
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Because I know there's some controversy and
some different definitions outthere depending on who you ask.
Yes, well, there's a lot ofconfusion about the terminology
in the service dog world.
So the term service dog in theUnited States it has a legal
definition.
It's defined in the Americanswith Disabilities Act as a dog
that has been trained specificbehaviors, and in the service
dog world we call these tasks tohelp a person with a disability
.
So some examples might be aguide dog that is leading
(02:51):
somebody who is blind, or ahearing dog alerting someone who
is deaf to somebody knocking ona door.
There's lots and lots ofdifferent possible tasks that a
service dog can be trained to doto help someone with a
disability, and there's a widerange of different kinds of
service dogs.
They can be trained to helppeople who have mental health
(03:12):
conditions like PTSD.
They can be trained to helppeople who have different kinds
of mobility-related disabilitiesor autoimmune conditions.
I mean the list just goes onand on and on for the incredible
range of different kinds ofservice dogs that are out there.
Now, different countries havedifferent legal definitions for
(03:34):
service dogs, but the overalldefinition is basically a dog
that is trained to do tasks fora person with a disability.
That's the one, that is someversion of that.
Depending upon, of course,where you are in the world, they
get confused with therapy dogsand also emotional support
animals.
I understand why people getconfused, because the terms
(03:57):
really are, there's some littleoverlapping areas and the role
of therapy dogs has really grownand expanded, so we're seeing
therapy dogs do new things andso then people get a bit
confused about them.
But therapy dogs don't have alegal definition like in the
United States, so they're not inthe Americans with Disabilities
(04:18):
Act, for example.
So they're not.
They basically are trained tohelp people other than the
handler, and so they're doingthings like visitation in a
hospital, or maybe children arereading to the dog in the
library, and typically therapydogs are part of some sort of
program, so they're working witha therapy dog organization.
(04:39):
Now where things get reallyreally sticky is with emotional
support animals.
So and I will talk about this,and even when I talk about this,
sometimes I myself go okay,this is confusing.
So if you're in the UnitedStates, I will always point
people to ADAgov, which is theAmericans with Disabilities Act
(05:01):
website, because there's a lot.
If you put in service animal,you'll have the definitions
there, depending upon where youare in the world.
Some countries have more onlinethan others, but you usually
find clarifications becausethere's the confusion that we
have in the United States isreally actually happening
everywhere.
People get confused about theterms.
(05:22):
The emotional support animalterm it really is one that came
from the United States and whathappened is that the Air Carrier
Access Act and there's no wayfor me to talk about this and
make this sound super fun butanother law but basically had a
different definition of servicedog and they included emotional
(05:45):
support animals in there andthey had this really broad
definition.
What was happening is that theydidn't even define a species,
so it was like these are justanimals and their presence
provides comfort.
So they're not trained specificbehaviors to help the person
with the disability.
And that's really the key thingis the task training.
(06:06):
So a service dog has to betrained specific behaviors to
help the person with thedisability.
So if the person has PTSD, thedog might be trained to do
something like an anxiety alertor interrupt when the person has
a nightmare.
An emotional support animal it'sjust the presence of the animal
provides comfort, and what washappening is that in the United
(06:29):
States, esas or emotionalsupport animals were allowed in
the cabin of an airplane andthis caused all kinds of issues
and problems and people werebringing different species.
I heard of everything fromturkeys to chickens.
Somebody tried to bring apeacock on a plane.
(06:50):
Then there was also animalswith behavior problems dogs with
behavior problems coming in andin one case there was a pretty
severe bite.
That made the news.
Airlines got understandably veryconcerned and they lobbied and
said the department oftransportation, essentially the
law was changed and emotionalsupport animals are no longer
(07:12):
allowed in the cabin of anairplane.
It would be nice if that waslike the straight up end of the
story, but there's still, uh,the fair housing act and so
emotional support animals can beallowed in housing.
That's its own little thing.
So I I always tell people likeA I'm not an attorney, but the
ins and outs of the laws of theUnited States are all online and
(07:33):
very, very clear, so you canfind like Department of
Transportation, because there'sso many questions about service
animal laws that they've allmade FAQs that are super, super
clearly spelled out.
But in terms of conversationsabout what service animals are,
it's they are service dogs, aredogs that are trained to help
(07:54):
people with disabilities andthey're trained these really
specific behaviors to help, andin the United States and many
other countries they are.
People with disabilities havethe legally protected right to
take their service dog with themto places of public
accommodation.
This means places like grocerystores, restaurants, places that
(08:15):
, even if a pet might not beallowed in those locations, the
person with the disability isallowed to have their service
dog with them there, and it's anaccessibility thing.
The same way, these locationsneed to have a ramp so somebody
with a wheelchair can access thelocation.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
All right.
So as you were talking there,you were mentioning and it was
going through my mind as well,actually the gray area there for
, like, being an emotionalsupport animal and a true
service dog, and you hadmentioned the task.
So I'll just throw atheoretical out there for you.
What if somebody's like yeah,I've got this, my dog is a
service dog.
I have a mental condition orsomething.
They say, something that theyhave, they're not specific, and
(08:56):
my dog does a chin rest on myknee when I'm having this issue?
Would that qualify as a task?
Is that somebody then can say,oh, this dog is a service dog
just because it does verybaseline behavior like chin rest
on my knee when I'mexperiencing this?
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Right, that is one of those hot legal topics that I'm
always like.
So, in terms of the way the lawis written, my interpretation
would be if that person meetsthe legal definition of
disability which I won't evenbegin to go into because the
truth is that disability itselfhas a legal definition and it is
(09:36):
like you know people, I didhave a student of mine ask me
about that and made me read theactual Americans with
Disabilities Act.
By the end I was like, okay,I'm really not sure, but you
have to if the person meets thelegal definition of disability.
That's the first part, right?
Because if they're not legallydisabled and that's its own
(09:58):
thing, then the service dog, itdoesn't matter what the dog's
trained to do, because theydon't meet that legal definition
of disability.
If the task the chin restdirectly relates to their
disability and is mitigatingtheir disability.
Whether that one task would beenough is a question for a judge
(10:18):
, but it might be.
It might be because there's alot of complexity to it, right?
Like it depends what that chinrest, what's the function of
that behavior.
It is a trained behavior.
Where the law is really clearis that, like it can't be a
naturally offered behaviorthat's not trained Like that's
(10:42):
one of the sticky areas thatthey talk about, because people
will say sometimes well, my dogjust does this and it's really
helpful.
It needs to be specificallytrained to do behaviors that
directly relate to the person'sdisability.
So let's say you know theperson doesn't have a disability
that's related to that behaviorand the dog's trained to do
something, then that obviouslydoesn't count.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Yeah, yeah.
They can't be like yeah, andthat obviously doesn't count.
Yeah.
They can't be like, yeah, mydog is breathing and it reminds
me to breathe, kind of thingRight.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Right, right, exactly , that becomes an emotional
support animal.
The presence provides comfortof some kind.
So it is really sticky.
In most cases service dogs aretrained more than one task.
But I mean it also kind of, youknow, if you talk about like a
hearing dog, right, it's trainedto alert to sounds, different
sounds, lots of different sounds, but you, but still like there
(11:32):
might be one sound that'sparticularly important to that
individual, that could be make ahuge difference.
You know, how many tasks doesthe dog need to be trained to do
?
I mean, typically programs aretraining several, a number of
different tasks.
But yeah, it is, it is aquestion, right, cause that
actually is like a chin rest ona lap.
It could be an interrupter, itcould be an anxiety alert, it
could be a light version of deeppressure therapy that could be
(11:55):
calming.
So lots of uses for chin rest,yes, for sure, for humans and
for dogs, for sure.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
So, along these lines , when we start getting into
gray areas of things, when wehave a service dog that might
have a history of aggression orbites somebody, what happens
then?
What are the ramificationsinvolved if we have a dog that
has been trained as a servicedog and suddenly changes or
behavior?
As we know, behavior is notstatic, it can change over the
years.
And it bites somebody or causesinjury to somebody.
(12:29):
What happens then?
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Right.
So in the industry there is azero tolerance policy for
aggressive behavior.
If a dog has a history ofaggressive behavior, that dog is
not a service dog candidate.
If the dog's behavior changes,that dog is not a public access
(12:51):
appropriate service dog.
Once it's exhibiting aggressivebehavior, in most cases that
would result the nice way ofsaying it is career change, the
not nice way of saying it iswash out.
The Department of Justice doeshave an FAQ section where they
don't really say it in terms oflike a permanent career change
in terms of their FAQ section.
(13:13):
But in the industry it's prettymuch treated that way, but in
the FAQ they more say like ifthe dog exhibits some sort of
unsafe behavior, reallydisruptive behavior, that the
business owner has the right toask that the service dog be
removed.
And that's in the United States.
Now other countries actuallyhave public access testing and
(13:34):
government, more governmentcontrol over the dogs that go
out in public access, andthere's a lot of variety in
terms of that.
The United States not quite asmuch.
And that's really a hard one,right, because we have a lot of
owner trainers, people withdisabilities, selecting and
training their own dogs forservice work.
And if the dog exhibits anunsafe behavior.
(13:55):
It's not fair to the dog to putthe dog in public access.
I've even actually seentrainers get a little bit
confused about this because theythink but we can do so much to
help dogs with aggressivebehavior and we can do so much
to modify their behavior, whycan't we take this dog that has,
(14:17):
you know, some trauma and adifficult history, modify the
aggressive behavior and thentrain the dog for service work?
Why is that, you know, in anyway?
What I always say is that publicaccess is not the same thing as
taking your dog, a pet dog, toa farmer's market or to a pet
(14:37):
store or anything like that.
It's very different because inpublic access, the handler with
a disability is not focused onthe dog.
They are not scanning theirenvironment, they are not
looking for potential triggers,they are not in situations where
they can easily move away orcreate distance.
It is not possible to not floodoverwhelm trigger and they
(15:03):
might be having a conversationwith someone engaged shopping at
the store, not even looking attheir dog at all for large
chunks of time.
So that's why public access isreally just not appropriate to
put a dog that has a history ofthat kind of behavior.
It's not fair to the dog, it'snot fair to the public and,
(15:23):
ultimately, it's not fair to theindividual themselves, because
they're going to end up in a badsituation.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
And it's not fair to service dogs and their people
around the world.
Because it can scar the image.
Really, when you think about it.
Suddenly all these service dogsare running around biting people
.
It's obviously not good for thereputation and, along those
lines, what if it's somethingthat often happens?
In many aggression cases it'snot really the fault of the dog,
(15:51):
so I'll use just a randomexample.
Maybe it's just a small childcomes running up to the service
dog, no parent in sight, and thechild just grabs the dog on the
ear or squeezes really hard ordoes something really awful, and
the dog has no escape and justends up turning and biting or
snapping at the child or showingsome other aggressive behavior.
What then?
Because you know that reallyisn't the dog's fault at all.
(16:14):
Right, it's the dog simplydefending themselves.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
No, right, and this is why, when we look for service
dog candidates, we look fordogs that are exceptionally
tolerant.
These are not typical dogs.
These are dogs that are really,really tolerant.
I live right outside ofWashington DC and I can give an
example of like.
When I was out with my firstservice dog one time just, and I
(16:39):
wasn't even in public access, Iwas actually just on the street
and a random at a rough collieand a random person man just got
in front of my dog's face andyelled Lassie, lassie, lassie.
Directly into his face, inchesaway from him.
You know now, would a bark havebeen okay?
(17:01):
Yeah, but not a bite.
You know what I'm saying?
Like, you have to be really,really tolerant.
He actually did nothing becausehe was like, he was very, just,
incredibly tolerant and thoughtthat everybody was just.
You know, I'm a movie staranyway, so just typical for me
to be yelled at.
So that's my paparazzi.
(17:22):
But that was the ideal response.
Is the no response or the tailwag.
Oh, you're my friend, you're myvery, very loud in your face
friend.
But that's what we want.
What we're asking for is a lotfrom public access service dogs,
and it's a lot of.
It is the individual dog'scharacteristics.
(17:42):
This is why Assistance DogsInternational member
organizations and programs a lotof service dog programs have
their own breeding pools andthey are working really hard to
get dogs that are very, verytolerant of these different
kinds of situations.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
And it's very difficult when you're talking
about genetics and the breeding.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Right.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
From my understanding , it's actually very difficult
to you know.
So you have many, many puppies,but only a few of them might
qualify, if that Is that correct.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Right, oh yeah, yeah.
I mean it's really hard to comeby statistics because I don't
think programs, I don't thinkanybody wants to advertise, we
only have half of them workno-transcript.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
a desirable outcome in the breeding programs.
I'm sure, Because if, let's say, the world just started getting
dogs from these pools of dogs,we would have put somebody like
me out of business, probablybecause we'd see a significant
decline in aggression, becausethese dogs are so tolerant to
things that happen to them thattypically would trigger an
(19:05):
aggressive response.
So just me thinking outside thebox a little bit here, Right?
Speaker 2 (19:10):
right For you it's good that the breeding pools are
closed and small.
Yeah, I mean, I think it's asan owner trainer I've chosen to
like, take my chances.
You know picking dogs and andas a result of that I don't end
up with all public accessservice dogs.
You know, sometimes some of thecharacteristics that we want
(19:34):
don't always so like let's thinkabout a hearing dog, for
instance.
Right, a hearing dog actuallythink hearing dog training is
super, super fun because, likethis is a dog that you know
might've wanted to bark atwhatever was happening in the
neighborhood and now gets to runand tell you about it and then
lead you to the sound source andgets treats.
So dogs that have thebehavioral characteristics for
(19:56):
that kind of work really love itand they tend to be very
natural at it.
Like you'll train a couple oftasks and then they start
alerting to every sound ever andthey're just having the best
time.
So it's one of those tasks thatcan be just once the dogs
figure out how to do it, it canbe naturally.
I find the dogs really enjoythe task itself, which isn't
(20:16):
always true for a service dogtasks, but for hearing dogs you
need a dog that naturallynotices sounds.
Dogs that naturally noticesounds, are often either afraid
of them or a little bit reactive.
So you want a naturallynoticing sounds, a lot of sounds
(20:38):
, active but not reactive.
I mean, this is hard right.
So you know, that's a mobilitydog.
Usually it's a little bit, atleast it kind of all fits a
little more because you wantnormally not always, but
depending upon the individualmost cases you want a lower
(21:00):
energy dog that isn'tparticularly reactive.
So that's okay.
Well, that's going to all fit.
And when we get into more ofthese alert, alerting jobs,
where you want a dog, that'ssort of more and noticing the
environment more, it's hard toget noticing the environment but
yet not noticing theenvironment, not noticing the
(21:22):
environment, that makes a lot ofsense.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Yes, because, as you're like some of our clients
in the aggression space, I mean,they are hyper-vigilant and
they are noticing everything,but just not the way we want
them to right.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Right, right, I mean yeah.
So it's definitely a tough onebecause it's like I always
always say like you want,sometimes people with mental
health conditions will go for,like sensitive, and I'm always
like don't go for sensitive, gofor the happy-go-lucky, doesn't
care what mood you're in,because because you go for
(21:58):
sensitive and then you just get,but you want highly trainable,
right, but not too sensitive.
It's a really hard, it's areally big ask and there's a lot
of different things in therethat just become like the more
you start thinking about whatyou're looking for in a service
dog candidate, the more youstart getting like wait, and
(22:19):
then you get an owner trainerwho then has additional
requirements like, well, wedon't want shedding, okay, and
now now our pool's gettingsmaller and smaller yeah, in
that regard.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
I mean it's almost like you need a dating app for
people to match with servicedogs.
I mean, there's so manyvariables, so we had talked
about that.
You know sourcing from breedersand from organizations that
focus specifically on breedingfor service dogs, but so where
else can people go?
For?
You mentioned owner trainers.
Is there a service or somethingyou provide where you help
(22:51):
people match with a certain dog?
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yeah, so well when I teach professional dog trainers
how to train service dogs andone of the things that I teach
them is we talk about like forowner trainers is to definitely
provide a before you got the dogconsult.
And I encourage owner trainersto go and find a qualified
service dog trainer beforethey've gotten their dog so they
(23:17):
can get some coaching on whatto look for and realize that
even with all of the coachingand all the guidance and even
getting a dog from a breederthat has generations of
producing service dogs, there'sstill not a guarantee you're
going to get public access, apublic access appropriate
service dog, because there areso many different aspects to
that.
(23:37):
But it is really good to go toa professional trainer to get
some guidance on that.
But it is really good to go toa professional trainer to get
some guidance on that.
And great service dogs, I mean,can come from kind of
everywhere, but they're hard tofind and you have to be aware of
that.
And then I always say with like, owner trainers need to be
(23:59):
right from the beginning.
Just be aware they might notend up with a dog that is
appropriate for public access.
That's just the hard reality ofthe situation.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
With that in mind, can you talk about the financial
aspect of it too?
Because you know, let's say,somebody goes and gets a dog and
they select a dog from theshelter.
They find what they feel isperfect match, but it doesn't
end up working out well for them.
Their dog isn't able to meetthe needs of the particular task
.
And they now are with this dogand they've spent some time and
(24:32):
money and probably are connectedand bonded with the dog, but
then they have to go findanother dog.
So what do we do there?
What are the options there?
And as far as also thefinancial aspect, people with
disabilities often are havingdifficulty from the financial
standpoint and I imagine servicedog training can get quite
costly.
Are there financial aidsituations that can happen or
(24:54):
other assistance programs inplace?
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Right.
So first, there's, like,essentially, you know, two ways
to get a service dog.
If I went down to it.
One is to apply to a nonprofitprogram that trains service dogs
, and one of the issues we'rehaving right now is that the
demand is so high that it's notunusual to see four-year wait
lists or longer than that.
I used to I want to say likefive years ago I always said I
(25:20):
used to say two-year wait lists.
I literally have had to changethat.
It's not unusual to seeprograms that aren't taking
people to waitlist because ofthe demand being as high as what
it is.
So the other option is toselect and train your own dog
for service work and in thatcase I would say, ideally you're
getting coaching from a trainerthat can provide some guidance,
(25:40):
maybe even provide some leadsor breeder referrals even.
But let's say, you do what Idid on my second service dog,
thinking, you know, because myfirst service dog was a very
easy to train dog for publicaccess, because I got lucky and
I just that's literally I justgot lucky.
He was very, very natural, lowkey dog and I did what you know.
(26:02):
At that point I was fairly newlydisabled and that's not unusual
from what I'm seeing now, thatpeople are getting service dogs
because they're so aware of thebenefits of service dogs that
they're getting them a littleearlier.
So that means we're adjustingto disability and we're getting
a dog at the same time.
(26:22):
So there's a lot of changes andthings coming in.
We're going in with a lot ofhope and we've also now
experienced a lot of stressbecause we're adjusting to our
own health condition.
Then you go to the animalshelter because you did
essentially exactly what I didand then ended up with oh, you
know, I've put a lot of time,money, effort and at 11 months
(26:46):
my dog was showing reactivity.
I had some extra disappointmentat that point because he
actually had.
I was kind of rushing.
I tell people now not to rushthe training process because we
know adolescent behavior isparticularly likely to change.
That's a time where there's alot of up and down and in my
(27:08):
case with my dog, he was anadolescent and that was when he
was changing.
But had I waited to do some ofthe assessments until he was
closer to two, I might not havebeen so disappointed.
So like oh my gosh, something'shappening.
Because I would have been sodisappointed so like oh my gosh,
something's happening, becauseI would have been more ready for
(27:29):
that In that case, like mostowner trainers and in my
experience the vast majority ofowner trainers when they get a
dog they end up committing tothe dog and so the majority of
the time they fall in love withtheir dog.
And so then, if the dog has abehavior problem, that needs to
be addressed first, and so I didthat.
I worked myself, I gotcolleagues recruited, help
addressed my dog's behaviorproblem, and that, of course, is
(27:52):
not going to be a perfect fix.
You're not going to end up withpublic access at that point,
but you need to have a dog thatyou can live with and manage
safely first and that you have agood quality of life for the
dog, and then after that, insome cases, it might be
appropriate to then train sometasks and have the dog as an
(28:13):
at-home helper, an at-home onlyservice dog.
Now, that would be a dog that'sjust basically trained tasks,
just to help you at home, andwith more and more people
working from home, in some casesthat can be exactly what the
person needs.
For me, at that point when thathappened in my life, I was not
working, I was newly disabled, Iwas in and out of hospitals and
(28:36):
I was in a really goodsituation to need an at-home
only service dog.
So actually my dog wasextremely helpful during that
time period to me and I was sodisappointed that he didn't end
up being public access.
But the reality was that hissensitivity, which was a big
problem for public access, was ahuge asset for me at home With
(29:01):
some tasks, hearing tasks,alerts, things like that.
If the person's working fromhome again, that might be a
perfect fit.
I say trainers who are gonna doan at-home only service dog, I
do caution them because we don't.
The law in the United States isso vague.
I say get everything in writing, have an attorney, review your
contract.
You wanna make sure yourclient's fully on board.
(29:21):
You wanna make sure yourclient's fully on board?
You want to make sure yourclient understands why the dog
is not going to go out in public, that it's not fair to the
public, it's not fair to otherservice dogs, it's not fair to
the dog and that they fullyunderstand that and that they're
on board.
You don't want to be trainingan at-home only service dog when
the person isn't really inagreement with that or might
(29:42):
push the dog further.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Just a quick follow-up question on that, if
somebody just had me thinking athome and people working from
home is there protections for,say, somebody has a landlord and
they're like I want to chargeyou 500 bucks a month for your
pet, that kind of pet payment orsomething like that.
Is there protections againstthat?
Or what's the law around that?
Do you know?
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Remember earlier when I talked about ESAs and that's
like the pocket where they stillexist in the United States is
in housing.
So there's still technically.
Yes, I guess there would be.
I always want to say likeverify this with an attorney.
Because whether any particularcase and what documentation
(30:27):
might be needed.
I don't, you know, I don't know, and I really mean that because
also, like, a lot of these lawsaren't tested, we don't have
like a lot of cases with likeindividual details, so we don't
know what will happen inparticular subtleties of
particular cases, because, Imean, service dogs have been
around for a while but this biggrowth is new, so we don't have
(30:51):
a lot of precedent, you know,for this.
You know, not all countrieseven have laws that acknowledge
the existence of another servicedog other than, say, a guide
dog.
Some of them don't even and I'mtalking about European
countries here, I'm not talkingabout, like you know, these are
there's countries that justthere's not even in the books,
that don't even define them, andso there's still a lot of
(31:12):
groundbreaking in the servicedog world Interesting.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
So my understanding is that, like a landlord can't
deny somebody from having aservice dog in their apartment,
is that correct?
Almost like well, I guess thequestion is some places they
can't force somebody, forinstance, to build a ramp in
some I guess it depends on thesize of the unit or something
like that.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Well, I mean, the law is so complicated and
convoluted because I live, likeI mentioned, I live outside of
DC, so there's like buildingsthat are historical and so they
get weird ways of becomingaccessible that aren't always
fully accessible.
And you know, you start lookingand like, wait, what size of
wheelchair fits into thiselevator, or you know, or so
(32:02):
anyway, that's kind of servicedog law.
It can get really complicatedand convoluted, and I was really
only talking about federal lawhere.
States have laws too.
So when it comes to likeservice dogs in training, you
have to look at state laws, andstate laws vary state by state
and if you're in a place likeCanada, you're looking at
(32:22):
provinces and I mean.
So again, there's a reasoneveryone's confused.
I know sometimes dog trainersget frustrated, these people
don't know, and I'm like, yeah,nobody really knows, because
it's very confusing.
And then when we add in termslike ESA, so forth, and
everybody, nobody knows what tosay or how to respond to that,
(32:43):
because it's just, you know,people confuse emotional support
animals with service dogstrained to help people who have
mental illness, but they are notthe same thing Again.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
So yeah, yeah, and you see that if you, if you see,
like, if you're on social mediaand you see some of these
videos and, for whatever reason,the algorithms feed me those
videos of somebody out withtheir service dog and getting
confronted and you can see theconfusion, like some people just
have no clue about the laws atall and some people have many
misconceptions.
So it's really interesting andso it is very confusing and I
(33:16):
agree with that.
It's not an easy landscape tonavigate at all.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
I should even qualify this, because in many countries
the term is actually assistancedog, it's not ESS, so yeah, and
so in many countries it's noteven yeah, so then we add that
to it and the terms can bedifferent in different countries
, so it just becomes a thing.
There was a lot of confusionabout that.
(33:44):
Now I'm like service slashassistance dog.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
All right, we're going to take a quick break to
hear a word from our sponsorsand we're going to come back and
I'd love to dive into whathappens if a service dog is
attacked by another dog orexperiences something negative
like that.
So we'll be right back.
Hey friends, it's me again andI hope you are enjoying this
episode.
(34:14):
Don't forget to join me for thefifth annual Aggression and
Dogs Conference, either inperson or online, from
Scottsdale, arizona, fromOctober 11th to the 13th 2024.
This year's lineup includesmany incredible speakers,
including Dr Clive Wynn, drJessica Heckman, emma Parsons,
sarah Kallnice, lori Lawless,carmeletta Ofterheide, jess
(34:34):
Feliciano, dr Amy Cook and manymore.
Head on over toaggressivedogcom and click on
the conference tab to learn moreabout the exciting agenda on
everything from advancedconcepts in dog body language to
working with aggression inshelter environments, to genetic
influences on behavior.
Dr Amy Cook will be bringingher entertaining and energetic
personality to the grandreception and cocktail party
(34:57):
which, by the way, will be livestreamed as well as in person,
will be live streamed as well asin person and, as usual, you'll
find a wonderful, kind, caringand supportive community at the
conference, both in person andonline.
I also want to take a moment tothank one of our wonderful
sponsors this year Pets for Vets.
Did you know that approximately1 million shelter animals are
euthanized in the US every year?
(35:18):
At the same time, many of ourcountry's veterans are
experiencing post-traumaticstress disorder, traumatic brain
injury, anxiety and ordepression.
Pets for Vets founder andexecutive director, clarissa
Black, created a solution forthese problems by rescuing and
training animals for veterans.
Pets for Vets has a uniqueprogram model that customizes
(35:41):
each match between a veteran anda shelter animal to create what
is known as a super bond.
Each animal is selected andtrained specifically for each
veteran, based on the nuancedrelationship between animal
behavior and human personality,to ensure a successful,
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Pets for Vets has a positivereinforcement mentality at its
(36:03):
core for animals, veterans andtrainers.
In addition to helping veteransand rescue animals, clarester
has created a generousopportunity for positive
reinforcement trainers to joinour organization.
Trainers are able toparticipate anywhere in the US
while receiving stipends,professional development
opportunities and maintaining aflexible schedule.
(36:24):
Pets for Vets is also seekingnew partnerships with animal
shelters and rescue groups fromaround the country.
For more information, pleasevisit petsforvetscom.
All right, we're back here withVeronica Sanchez.
We have been talking aboutservice dogs and we're going to
jump right into the.
(36:44):
We have been talking aboutservice dogs and we're going to
jump right into the topic ofwhat do we do now if a service
dog is attacked by an off-leashdog or any other animal for that
matter, or person, but let'ssay it's another dog.
What are some things that wehave to think about there?
Because sometimes that singleevent learning can be so
profound where just that oneattack can be incredibly
detrimental to both the personand the dog and, you know, can
(37:06):
cause injuries, it can cause,you know, behavioral changes.
So what do you suggest there?
It's kind of a broad question,but what are your thoughts on
that?
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Right.
Well, we do hear about thisquite a bit.
I'll mention that in the UnitedStates, there are many states
that do have special legalprotections for service dogs and
there can be consequences forpeople creating that situation
having an off-leash dog, theiroff-leash dog attack a service
dog.
So there are states that haveadditional penalties and fines
(37:36):
for hurting a service dog.
Now, obviously, yeah, it canabsolutely be an issue and there
are people who had service dogsthat have had to be retired
early because the dog did notrecover from the experience.
So, ideally, if somethingterrible happens, that the
handler of the service dog isable to protect the dog in some
(37:58):
way, prevent it from happening,and then contacts if the dog
came from a program or ifthey're working with a trainer,
contacts their trainerimmediately for some next steps
to what to do.
It might be a short publicaccess vacation to give the dog
some downtime to regroup, andthen a slow you know, depending
upon what actually happenedcounter-conditioning,
(38:20):
desensitization, whatever it isthat you might need to do to
reintroduce One thing that I dotalk about and this isn't even
just there are so many servicedogs and dogs and not even just
service dogs.
So many locations arepet-friendly now that were not
pet-friendly before.
So service dogs areencountering pets and having to
(38:41):
work in close proximity withother dogs pretty much
everywhere at this point a lotof places anyway.
So I do think that that needsto be considered in the training
process right from thebeginning.
I know with my own dog, everytime my dog sees a dog, my dog
gets food and has from eightweeks every time.
(39:03):
It's like you see a dog, lookat me get food every single time
trying to put that in the bankto try to stack the odds in the
favor.
And almost every time I go outagain I'm in a more urban area
almost every time I go out mydog is going to get, at the very
minimum, barked at aggressive,reactive by another reactive dog
(39:27):
.
That's going to happen prettymuch every single time, just
because of the fact that where Ilive and there's a lot of dogs
and so you know we justcontinuously work on a circle,
move away, and I just I train alot of patterns of like a, just
a simple U-turn.
You know, when you're workingwith adaptive equipment, you've
(39:50):
got to work with the adaptiveequipment, so like with a
wheelchair, I use a walker a lot, so I do a lot of U-turns and I
will position my walker betweenmy dog and the other dog.
It's not much of a visualbarrier, but it's better than no
visual barrier.
And with handlers usingwheelchairs, similar Just
practice that pattern over andover and over and over again and
(40:12):
lots and lots and lots of food.
But yeah, I mean, it'sdefinitely an issue.
I think it's harder for servicedogs now than it has been
before Because we have thecombination of more pet friendly
locations, people loving totake their dogs out with them
more to more locations, and thenalso, even if you're in a
(40:33):
location that is not a petfriendly location, the odds of
encountering another service dogteam there are pretty high, and
not all of those dogs areselected to.
Ideally we want to say all theservice dogs have been selected
perfectly, but obviously they'renot, and so you might encounter
even in a not pet-friendlylocation you might encounter a
(40:56):
dog that's reacting and stressed, so it's definitely like a
constant thing.
It's a lot to ask what we'reasking for these dogs to do,
which is why I think we'retalking so much.
I mean, in the pet world we'retalking about this.
You know the decompression,enrichment, you know all these
kinds of things to try to reducetheir stress level.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Yeah, yeah, and you brought up a good point there.
Even some service dogs mighthave issues with the dogs in
some environments.
That's another thing to contendwith Do you teach anything to
your students about what to doif an attack happens?
So let's say you are going onthe street and there's some
off-leash dog and there's noowner in sight and it's coming
after your dog.
(41:39):
Do you teach anything for anemergency handling perspective
or what to do in that kind ofsituation?
Speaker 2 (41:44):
So right now I'm working with trainers and then a
lot of them are behaviorconsultants too.
But when I work directly withpeople with disabilities, with
their service dogs, we talked alot about and we practiced
really quick moveaways a lotuntil they were really good at
doing the U-turn, the pattern,and we talked a lot about how to
(42:07):
do that kind of thing in orderto make space as quickly as
possible.
It's always a little bit of atoss-up when the dog's off leash
, because tightening up on yourleash versus taking your chances
and relaxing the leash andhoping things go well.
So, uh, it's always like one ofthose like um, yeah, now, uh,
(42:28):
the one thing I will say with myservice dog Handler is that
off-leash was not as much of anissue with my clients with
mobility disabilities, becausethey're not usually in parks,
usually they're in urban areaswhere the leashes are on.
So it was more like a matter ofmaking space and moving away
(42:50):
and trying to do that quickly,which is really hard to do with
adaptive equipment, because ifyou're walking on a sidewalk and
you're approaching somebody, aperson in a wheelchair, that
wheelchair they don't drive thesame on grass that they do on
cement.
Power wheelchairs are faster ona straight line than they are
when they turn.
So as soon as you start turningit's almost like they stop.
(43:13):
So even just like pass-byspassing by people with other
dogs, people don't make space.
This has been an issue for mealso with a walker, and I'll be
just in an urban area justmoving.
We don't want dogs nose to noseright, like I mean in general.
We don't want them like justmoving up, nose to nose and a
person who's using adaptiveequipment.
(43:34):
They can't turn their equipment, the dog's trapped.
If you can sort of envision it,they're more likely to be
trapped.
They can't move from one sideto the other.
You can't have as loose leashbecause the leash entangles in
the adaptive equipment.
So you can't have like, oh, I'mgoing to let you move for front
, can't move behind because theperson can't move their hand
(43:55):
behind.
Or you can't hold onto a walkerand then have your leash behind
you.
Yeah, you pretty much have apivot in most cases.
So pivot, pivot, pivot, yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
Interesting you know as you were talking there about.
You know certain environmentsand off-leash dogs.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
I know.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
You have students all over the world, you know
trainers.
And have you ever heard anydiscussion or heard from any
students about that, living incountries where there's a
tremendous amount of off-leashdogs?
So free-roaming dogs, so freeroaming dogs.
Now, the interesting thing forme is those dogs typically
aren't going to be charging uprandomly to strange dogs,
because that wouldn't usuallywork out well for them.
(44:36):
But, they're also very tolerant.
They're very, you know, justliving the life.
They don't need to charge up tosome strange dog.
But it can happen, you know.
You go by somebody's housebecause a lot of those times in
some countries they're freeroaming but they're also
territorial about certain areas.
Or they live at somebody'shouse but they have free access
to go out on the street and whatwill happen is they charge out
onto the road, or they chargeand then they stop.
They don't do anything furtherthan that, they just kind of
(44:57):
announce hey, this is myproperty, get away.
But have you heard from any ofyour students about what the
impacts and influences there?
Is it a problem?
Does it change things?
Because it's a lot different.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
That is different.
That is a really differentsituation.
I have not had students who'veshared that with me in terms of,
like their own clients havingthat be kind of a major issue.
In terms of, like, just streetdogs in particular, it's more
(45:28):
what I hear is more likeencountering reactive dogs in
public access that's the biggestkind of complaint that I get
and that they go out and thentheir dog is getting trapped or
cornered in a public accessenvironment.
I don't know too if it's likecause.
If I think about I mean, thathas to be an issue.
(45:51):
I you know, and if you'reliving in a city where there's a
lot of street dogs, I wouldimagine that that still has to
be an issue.
But since they are stoppingshort and just barking, I'm kind
of almost envisioning me insuburban Northern Virginia of
your invisible fence situationwhere you're walking past yards
and the dogs are just likerunning up and stopping short,
(46:16):
so you're like, oh wait, oh, youstopped so, but you don't know
until you actually you know arethere that they're going to stop
.
Yeah, I mean, I think like theonly good thing about situations
like that is that if it's yourneighborhood and you live there,
you're going to know, kind oflike, where they are.
(46:38):
So I would imagine that in thatkind of situation you can at
least predict your path, predictyour walking location, predict
your path, because I wouldimagine street dogs have
predictable patterns wherethey're going to hang out at.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
An interesting thing for me too now I I'm thinking
more about this is you werementioning earlier about
tolerance and how adaptive theyare to not reacting back, and
when you think about that,that's such a beautiful trait to
have, because oftentimes that'swhat gets the other dog to
escalate.
You know some reaction.
They come out, bark, bark, bark,bark, bark, and then nothing
happens from the other dog theother dog's, like you know.
(47:11):
Hey, relax, buddy, and thenlife goes on as normal.
It's actually you know, if dogsresponded to that all the time,
we would have much less issuesbetween dogs, Right?
Speaker 2 (47:20):
So yeah, well, you kind of reminded me of something
I do want the dog to look atthe handler when there's another
dog, because I don't want themjust staring at the dog that's
barking, because that's going tomake that situation worse.
So I do talk about, like youknow, we're going to try to have
(47:40):
your dog try to help thesituation as much as possible by
not continuing to stare andturning away and moving away,
and so we're not giving thatother dog a reason to get more
nervous.
Speaker 1 (47:52):
And do you think a big part of it also is that in
training, during the trainingstages and really socialization,
habituation, acclimation to theenvironment, it's because we're
also setting scenarios with theother dogs in the environment.
Often, I'm guessing, otherservice dog trainees are all
together and they're alllearning like, hey, we can
ignore each other completely,Like there's no need to pay
(48:14):
attention to you.
Do you think that has a lot ofbearing?
This dog is now learning that,hey, most other dogs just ignore
me, so I don't have to worryabout other dogs.
Do you think that builds a lotof like foundational resiliency?
I guess for lack of a betterword- I think so.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
I mean, I think that when I worked with owner
trainers I did one on one andtheir dogs were exposed to my
dog.
But when I live in a fairlylike I mentioned urban area, I
think most dogs are not reacting, even in my urban area.
So it's like you know, it'slike what?
10% right Majority.
So if you go out and you gettreats every time you pass a dog
and then one of the dogs isbarking but you still get the
(48:56):
treat and nothing bad happened,right, you got barked at and we
moved away and it was like anon-event For a lot of dogs.
If that's how they're raisedand experiencing and if the
dog's in a group class and theydo have a lot of training and a
lot of sometimes some servicedog programs run them in group
classes the programs are goingto be working with groups of
dogs.
I also do like to do a lot ofsocial facilitation, bringing an
(49:17):
experienced service dog alongwith the team.
So you have like this dog,that's like eh, whatever, that
you know that's not a big deal.
You're getting a lot of cues ofthings not being a big deal and
you're working right from that,beginning to try to build
resilience in the dog building,you know, confidence.
I also think there's a lot to besaid to for with owner trained
(49:41):
service dogs in particular,because owner trainers sometimes
see like a service dog programwhere they'll see like, well,
there's that lab in the vest atnine months, there's that lab in
the vest at you know nine or 10months in the mall or in the
whatever, and I'm like that's aprogram bred lab.
That's not the dog you picked,you know.
So, yeah, you know, you pickeda herding breed mix.
(50:05):
So you know, go slower andacknowledge the adolescent
period, because some of thesedogs they're just, they're not
reactive forever.
They're reactive at 11 months,they're having a bad month and
if they are just hanging aroundyour backyard or doing long line
walks in the woods from 11 to14 months and then you go back
(50:30):
and work with them again,they'll be okay.
So I think, particularly forowner trainers, I would love to
redefine what looks like servicedog training for them, because
a lot of times owner trainersare looking at a program model
and not looking at the dog thatthey have in front of them and
then adjusting that, because Idon't think that they all
(50:53):
automatically don't end up beingokay for public access just
because they had a really badadolescence.
I've seen some really greatservice dogs that if you looked
at them when they wereadolescents you would have been
like, oh you know, that dog'safraid of the universe and not
able to focus anywhere.
I always like think, like,please, no one judge me based on
(51:15):
my behavior at 16.
So forever.
Speaker 1 (51:20):
Yeah, yeah, you bring up such a really good point
there.
You know, adjusting for thelearner that's in front of us
and in that regard, maybe wecould spend the last few minutes
here talking about maybe if youcan give me keeping in mind,
this is an aggression podcastmaybe your top three tips for
because there's a lot oftrainers listening into this
show and what are maybe your topthree tips for trainers
(51:43):
accommodating people withdisabilities in there.
So they maybe they get hired bya client.
That person has a disabilityand they also have a dog with a
history of aggression orreactivity.
So, along those lines maybe whatwould be some of your top
suggestions for those trainersto look for or help or research
or whatever comes top of mindfor you.
Speaker 2 (52:03):
So I would look at what the number one thing is.
Look at what the person can do.
So you want to focus on whatthat person's abilities are, so
maybe they can really use theirvoice really well and you're not
used to using voice as a way ofgetting and keeping the dog's
attention because their treatdelivery is too slow.
Well then, help them, maximizethe use of their voice to get
(52:25):
their dog's attention andrefocus their dog and it.
You know, it's like lots ofpraise, lots of happy talk.
So you want to focus on whatthe person can do.
I would also say we as trainers,when you're breaking your
criteria down, a lot of timeswhen you're working with someone
with a disability, it can helpto break it down more than what
(52:48):
you might normally do.
So let's say you're doingsomething really simple, like I
talked about pivots and U-turns,because that's like my go-to
with like move, get away, okay.
Like kind of turn around, getaway.
We're going to make some space.
So have the client practice theU-turn with their adaptive
equipment without the dog,because the adaptive equipment
(53:11):
requires concentration to thinkabout.
It's like driving a car andthen you're trying to drive a
car and train a dog at the sametime and it's a reactive dog, so
you're doing a lot and so ifyou imagine that and then you
know in the sidewalk and reallygetting that you need to be
really smooth on that U-turnwith the adaptive equipment
before you can add the dog in.
(53:32):
So have them.
Break that criteria down toeven smaller pieces and I would.
The other thing is I wouldteach less and build it to
fluency more, so like if I'mdon't try to do 50 million
strategies, try to do like twoor three and really get those
like to fluency, because I meanhonestly, like a nose touch,
(53:56):
like a really solid nose touchto hand can get you so much.
So like you know, so right,like, yeah, so just like
practice that in a milliondifferent contexts and slowly
and build fluency with that.
You know it's already a complexsituation, so try to simplify
(54:16):
it and just have it reallyfluent and really well
generalized.
Speaker 1 (54:21):
Fantastic.
Love it.
I love it all, Veronica.
Thank you so much.
Where can people find you?
Where can people reach out toyou if they need to?
Speaker 2 (54:31):
can people find you?
Where can people reach out toyou if they need to?
Cooperative Paws, which is mywebsite, cooperativepawscom.
I have a contact page.
I have courses that I offerthere for trainers interested in
learning about service dogtraining and a certificate
program for trainers who want toreally get involved with that
the service dog coach programand I also have a blog.
Get involved with that theService Dog Coach program and I
(54:53):
also have a blog.
And for pet trainers who arejust working with clients with
disabilities that blog you canput different terms in the
search and maybe like workingwith clients with speech
disabilities, and there are allthe blog posts that I've written
about that, and thoseaccommodations would apply to a
pet trainer as well.
So the blog there is free.
And then I'm on Instagram atCooperative Paws, and then also
(55:18):
on Facebook too.
Speaker 1 (55:21):
Excellent, excellent.
Yeah, so I'll be sure to linkthose in the show notes.
Thank you so much.
This was super educational forme and, I'm sure, for the
listeners, and I hope to see youagain in the future.
Thank you so much for having mesuper educational for me and,
I'm sure, for the listeners, andI hope to see you again in the
future.
Speaker 2 (55:32):
Thank you so much for having me.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (55:35):
I really learned a lot about service dogs chatting
with Veronica.
She truly is a wealth ofinformation on this topic and
I'm really glad we had theopportunity to bring more
awareness about the importantroles of service dogs that they
play in our community.
And don't forget to head onover to aggressivedogcom for
more information about helpingdogs with aggression, from the
Aggression and Dogs MasterCourse to webinars from
(55:57):
world-renowned experts and evenan annual conference.
We have options for both petpros and pet owners to learn
more about aggression and dogs.
We also have the Help for Dogswith Aggression bonus episodes
that you can subscribe to.
These are solo shows where Iwalk you through how to work
with a variety of types ofaggression, such as resource
guarding, dog-to-dog aggression,territorial aggression,
(56:18):
fear-based aggression and much,much more.
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Thanks for listening in and, asalways, stay well, my friends.
In this episode we dive into the world of service
dogs and some of the myths andmisconceptions that surround the
tasks they perform, as well aswhat happens when a service dog
displays aggression and evensome strategies on what to do if
a service dog is attacked byanother dog.
Veronica Sanchez, the founderof Cooperative Paws Service Dog
Coach, a certificate program forprofessional trainers in
(00:25):
service dog training, joins mefor this enlightening
conversation.
She offers a variety of onlinecourses, speaks and writes on
service dogs for professionalassociations and is the author
of Service Dog Coaching, a guidefor pet dog trainers.
Her background also includes amaster's in education from
George Mason University and acertificate in brain research
(00:45):
and education from theUniversity of Washington.
Veronica has experience workingwith owner trainers as well as
working with non-profit servicedog programs.
Her interest in service dogs isboth personal and professional.
She has a disability herselfgeneralized dystonia and has
trained her own dogs to assistas service dogs.
(01:06):
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support the podcast by going toaggressivedogcom, where there's
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You can also learn more aboutthe Aggression and Dogs Master
(01:27):
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and behavior.
We are your one-stop shop forall things related to aggression
in dogs.
Hey, everyone, welcome back tothe Bitey End of the Dog.
(01:51):
I'm very excited for thisepisode because we're going to
be talking about service dogswith Veronica Sanchez, who is an
expert on this topic, and I'mreally, really looking forward
to diving in, because this isactually a topic I don't know
much about, so I'm excited tohave Veronica here.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Oh, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
So let's dive in here , because we have a very broad
audience, some folks deeplyknowledgeable about this topic
and some others maybe justwanting to learn more.
So can you define first of all,like, what is a service dog?
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Because I know there's some controversy and
some different definitions outthere depending on who you ask.
Yes, well, there's a lot ofconfusion about the terminology
in the service dog world.
So the term service dog in theUnited States it has a legal
definition.
It's defined in the Americanswith Disabilities Act as a dog
that has been trained specificbehaviors, and in the service
dog world we call these tasks tohelp a person with a disability
.
So some examples might be aguide dog that is leading
(02:51):
somebody who is blind, or ahearing dog alerting someone who
is deaf to somebody knocking ona door.
There's lots and lots ofdifferent possible tasks that a
service dog can be trained to doto help someone with a
disability, and there's a widerange of different kinds of
service dogs.
They can be trained to helppeople who have mental health
(03:12):
conditions like PTSD.
They can be trained to helppeople who have different kinds
of mobility-related disabilitiesor autoimmune conditions.
I mean the list just goes onand on and on for the incredible
range of different kinds ofservice dogs that are out there.
Now, different countries havedifferent legal definitions for
(03:34):
service dogs, but the overalldefinition is basically a dog
that is trained to do tasks fora person with a disability.
That's the one, that is someversion of that.
Depending upon, of course,where you are in the world, they
get confused with therapy dogsand also emotional support
animals.
I understand why people getconfused, because the terms
(03:57):
really are, there's some littleoverlapping areas and the role
of therapy dogs has really grownand expanded, so we're seeing
therapy dogs do new things andso then people get a bit
confused about them.
But therapy dogs don't have alegal definition like in the
United States, so they're not inthe Americans with Disabilities
(04:18):
Act, for example.
So they're not.
They basically are trained tohelp people other than the
handler, and so they're doingthings like visitation in a
hospital, or maybe children arereading to the dog in the
library, and typically therapydogs are part of some sort of
program, so they're working witha therapy dog organization.
(04:39):
Now where things get reallyreally sticky is with emotional
support animals.
So and I will talk about this,and even when I talk about this,
sometimes I myself go okay,this is confusing.
So if you're in the UnitedStates, I will always point
people to ADAgov, which is theAmericans with Disabilities Act
(05:01):
website, because there's a lot.
If you put in service animal,you'll have the definitions
there, depending upon where youare in the world.
Some countries have more onlinethan others, but you usually
find clarifications becausethere's the confusion that we
have in the United States isreally actually happening
everywhere.
People get confused about theterms.
(05:22):
The emotional support animalterm it really is one that came
from the United States and whathappened is that the Air Carrier
Access Act and there's no wayfor me to talk about this and
make this sound super fun butanother law but basically had a
different definition of servicedog and they included emotional
(05:45):
support animals in there andthey had this really broad
definition.
What was happening is that theydidn't even define a species,
so it was like these are justanimals and their presence
provides comfort.
So they're not trained specificbehaviors to help the person
with the disability.
And that's really the key thingis the task training.
(06:06):
So a service dog has to betrained specific behaviors to
help the person with thedisability.
So if the person has PTSD, thedog might be trained to do
something like an anxiety alertor interrupt when the person has
a nightmare.
An emotional support animal it'sjust the presence of the animal
provides comfort, and what washappening is that in the United
(06:29):
States, esas or emotionalsupport animals were allowed in
the cabin of an airplane andthis caused all kinds of issues
and problems and people werebringing different species.
I heard of everything fromturkeys to chickens.
Somebody tried to bring apeacock on a plane.
(06:50):
Then there was also animalswith behavior problems dogs with
behavior problems coming in andin one case there was a pretty
severe bite.
That made the news.
Airlines got understandably veryconcerned and they lobbied and
said the department oftransportation, essentially the
law was changed and emotionalsupport animals are no longer
(07:12):
allowed in the cabin of anairplane.
It would be nice if that waslike the straight up end of the
story, but there's still, uh,the fair housing act and so
emotional support animals can beallowed in housing.
That's its own little thing.
So I I always tell people likeA I'm not an attorney, but the
ins and outs of the laws of theUnited States are all online and
(07:33):
very, very clear, so you canfind like Department of
Transportation, because there'sso many questions about service
animal laws that they've allmade FAQs that are super, super
clearly spelled out.
But in terms of conversationsabout what service animals are,
it's they are service dogs, aredogs that are trained to help
(07:54):
people with disabilities andthey're trained these really
specific behaviors to help, andin the United States and many
other countries they are.
People with disabilities havethe legally protected right to
take their service dog with themto places of public
accommodation.
This means places like grocerystores, restaurants, places that
(08:15):
, even if a pet might not beallowed in those locations, the
person with the disability isallowed to have their service
dog with them there, and it's anaccessibility thing.
The same way, these locationsneed to have a ramp so somebody
with a wheelchair can access thelocation.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
All right.
So as you were talking there,you were mentioning and it was
going through my mind as well,actually the gray area there for
, like, being an emotionalsupport animal and a true
service dog, and you hadmentioned the task.
So I'll just throw atheoretical out there for you.
What if somebody's like yeah,I've got this, my dog is a
service dog.
I have a mental condition orsomething.
They say, something that theyhave, they're not specific, and
(08:56):
my dog does a chin rest on myknee when I'm having this issue?
Would that qualify as a task?
Is that somebody then can say,oh, this dog is a service dog
just because it does verybaseline behavior like chin rest
on my knee when I'mexperiencing this?
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Right, that is one of those hot legal topics that I'm
always like.
So, in terms of the way the lawis written, my interpretation
would be if that person meetsthe legal definition of
disability which I won't evenbegin to go into because the
truth is that disability itselfhas a legal definition and it is
(09:36):
like you know people, I didhave a student of mine ask me
about that and made me read theactual Americans with
Disabilities Act.
By the end I was like, okay,I'm really not sure, but you
have to if the person meets thelegal definition of disability.
That's the first part, right?
Because if they're not legallydisabled and that's its own
(09:58):
thing, then the service dog, itdoesn't matter what the dog's
trained to do, because theydon't meet that legal definition
of disability.
If the task the chin restdirectly relates to their
disability and is mitigatingtheir disability.
Whether that one task would beenough is a question for a judge
(10:18):
, but it might be.
It might be because there's alot of complexity to it, right?
Like it depends what that chinrest, what's the function of
that behavior.
It is a trained behavior.
Where the law is really clearis that, like it can't be a
naturally offered behaviorthat's not trained Like that's
(10:42):
one of the sticky areas thatthey talk about, because people
will say sometimes well, my dogjust does this and it's really
helpful.
It needs to be specificallytrained to do behaviors that
directly relate to the person'sdisability.
So let's say you know theperson doesn't have a disability
that's related to that behaviorand the dog's trained to do
something, then that obviouslydoesn't count.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Yeah, yeah.
They can't be like yeah, andthat obviously doesn't count.
Yeah.
They can't be like, yeah, mydog is breathing and it reminds
me to breathe, kind of thingRight.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Right, right, exactly , that becomes an emotional
support animal.
The presence provides comfortof some kind.
So it is really sticky.
In most cases service dogs aretrained more than one task.
But I mean it also kind of, youknow, if you talk about like a
hearing dog, right, it's trainedto alert to sounds, different
sounds, lots of different sounds, but you, but still like there
(11:32):
might be one sound that'sparticularly important to that
individual, that could be make ahuge difference.
You know, how many tasks doesthe dog need to be trained to do
?
I mean, typically programs aretraining several, a number of
different tasks.
But yeah, it is, it is aquestion, right, cause that
actually is like a chin rest ona lap.
It could be an interrupter, itcould be an anxiety alert, it
could be a light version of deeppressure therapy that could be
(11:55):
calming.
So lots of uses for chin rest,yes, for sure, for humans and
for dogs, for sure.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
So, along these lines , when we start getting into
gray areas of things, when wehave a service dog that might
have a history of aggression orbites somebody, what happens
then?
What are the ramificationsinvolved if we have a dog that
has been trained as a servicedog and suddenly changes or
behavior?
As we know, behavior is notstatic, it can change over the
years.
And it bites somebody or causesinjury to somebody.
(12:29):
What happens then?
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Right.
So in the industry there is azero tolerance policy for
aggressive behavior.
If a dog has a history ofaggressive behavior, that dog is
not a service dog candidate.
If the dog's behavior changes,that dog is not a public access
(12:51):
appropriate service dog.
Once it's exhibiting aggressivebehavior, in most cases that
would result the nice way ofsaying it is career change, the
not nice way of saying it iswash out.
The Department of Justice doeshave an FAQ section where they
don't really say it in terms oflike a permanent career change
in terms of their FAQ section.
(13:13):
But in the industry it's prettymuch treated that way, but in
the FAQ they more say like ifthe dog exhibits some sort of
unsafe behavior, reallydisruptive behavior, that the
business owner has the right toask that the service dog be
removed.
And that's in the United States.
Now other countries actuallyhave public access testing and
(13:34):
government, more governmentcontrol over the dogs that go
out in public access, andthere's a lot of variety in
terms of that.
The United States not quite asmuch.
And that's really a hard one,right, because we have a lot of
owner trainers, people withdisabilities, selecting and
training their own dogs forservice work.
And if the dog exhibits anunsafe behavior.
(13:55):
It's not fair to the dog to putthe dog in public access.
I've even actually seentrainers get a little bit
confused about this because theythink but we can do so much to
help dogs with aggressivebehavior and we can do so much
to modify their behavior, whycan't we take this dog that has,
(14:17):
you know, some trauma and adifficult history, modify the
aggressive behavior and thentrain the dog for service work?
Why is that, you know, in anyway?
What I always say is that publicaccess is not the same thing as
taking your dog, a pet dog, toa farmer's market or to a pet
(14:37):
store or anything like that.
It's very different because inpublic access, the handler with
a disability is not focused onthe dog.
They are not scanning theirenvironment, they are not
looking for potential triggers,they are not in situations where
they can easily move away orcreate distance.
It is not possible to not floodoverwhelm trigger and they
(15:03):
might be having a conversationwith someone engaged shopping at
the store, not even looking attheir dog at all for large
chunks of time.
So that's why public access isreally just not appropriate to
put a dog that has a history ofthat kind of behavior.
It's not fair to the dog, it'snot fair to the public and,
(15:23):
ultimately, it's not fair to theindividual themselves, because
they're going to end up in a badsituation.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
And it's not fair to service dogs and their people
around the world.
Because it can scar the image.
Really, when you think about it.
Suddenly all these service dogsare running around biting people
.
It's obviously not good for thereputation and, along those
lines, what if it's somethingthat often happens?
In many aggression cases it'snot really the fault of the dog,
(15:51):
so I'll use just a randomexample.
Maybe it's just a small childcomes running up to the service
dog, no parent in sight, and thechild just grabs the dog on the
ear or squeezes really hard ordoes something really awful, and
the dog has no escape and justends up turning and biting or
snapping at the child or showingsome other aggressive behavior.
What then?
Because you know that reallyisn't the dog's fault at all.
(16:14):
Right, it's the dog simplydefending themselves.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
No, right, and this is why, when we look for service
dog candidates, we look fordogs that are exceptionally
tolerant.
These are not typical dogs.
These are dogs that are really,really tolerant.
I live right outside ofWashington DC and I can give an
example of like.
When I was out with my firstservice dog one time just, and I
(16:39):
wasn't even in public access, Iwas actually just on the street
and a random at a rough collieand a random person man just got
in front of my dog's face andyelled Lassie, lassie, lassie.
Directly into his face, inchesaway from him.
You know now, would a bark havebeen okay?
(17:01):
Yeah, but not a bite.
You know what I'm saying?
Like, you have to be really,really tolerant.
He actually did nothing becausehe was like, he was very, just,
incredibly tolerant and thoughtthat everybody was just.
You know, I'm a movie staranyway, so just typical for me
to be yelled at.
So that's my paparazzi.
(17:22):
But that was the ideal response.
Is the no response or the tailwag.
Oh, you're my friend, you're myvery, very loud in your face
friend.
But that's what we want.
What we're asking for is a lotfrom public access service dogs,
and it's a lot of.
It is the individual dog'scharacteristics.
(17:42):
This is why Assistance DogsInternational member
organizations and programs a lotof service dog programs have
their own breeding pools andthey are working really hard to
get dogs that are very, verytolerant of these different
kinds of situations.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
And it's very difficult when you're talking
about genetics and the breeding.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Right.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
From my understanding , it's actually very difficult
to you know.
So you have many, many puppies,but only a few of them might
qualify, if that Is that correct.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Right, oh yeah, yeah.
I mean it's really hard to comeby statistics because I don't
think programs, I don't thinkanybody wants to advertise, we
only have half of them workno-transcript.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
a desirable outcome in the breeding programs.
I'm sure, Because if, let's say, the world just started getting
dogs from these pools of dogs,we would have put somebody like
me out of business, probablybecause we'd see a significant
decline in aggression, becausethese dogs are so tolerant to
things that happen to them thattypically would trigger an
(19:05):
aggressive response.
So just me thinking outside thebox a little bit here, Right?
Speaker 2 (19:10):
right For you it's good that the breeding pools are
closed and small.
Yeah, I mean, I think it's asan owner trainer I've chosen to
like, take my chances.
You know picking dogs and andas a result of that I don't end
up with all public accessservice dogs.
You know, sometimes some of thecharacteristics that we want
(19:34):
don't always so like let's thinkabout a hearing dog, for
instance.
Right, a hearing dog actuallythink hearing dog training is
super, super fun because, likethis is a dog that you know
might've wanted to bark atwhatever was happening in the
neighborhood and now gets to runand tell you about it and then
lead you to the sound source andgets treats.
So dogs that have thebehavioral characteristics for
(19:56):
that kind of work really love itand they tend to be very
natural at it.
Like you'll train a couple oftasks and then they start
alerting to every sound ever andthey're just having the best
time.
So it's one of those tasks thatcan be just once the dogs
figure out how to do it, it canbe naturally.
I find the dogs really enjoythe task itself, which isn't
(20:16):
always true for a service dogtasks, but for hearing dogs you
need a dog that naturallynotices sounds.
Dogs that naturally noticesounds, are often either afraid
of them or a little bit reactive.
So you want a naturallynoticing sounds, a lot of sounds
(20:38):
, active but not reactive.
I mean, this is hard right.
So you know, that's a mobilitydog.
Usually it's a little bit, atleast it kind of all fits a
little more because you wantnormally not always, but
depending upon the individualmost cases you want a lower
(21:00):
energy dog that isn'tparticularly reactive.
So that's okay.
Well, that's going to all fit.
And when we get into more ofthese alert, alerting jobs,
where you want a dog, that'ssort of more and noticing the
environment more, it's hard toget noticing the environment but
yet not noticing theenvironment, not noticing the
(21:22):
environment, that makes a lot ofsense.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Yes, because, as you're like some of our clients
in the aggression space, I mean,they are hyper-vigilant and
they are noticing everything,but just not the way we want
them to right.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Right, right, I mean yeah.
So it's definitely a tough onebecause it's like I always
always say like you want,sometimes people with mental
health conditions will go for,like sensitive, and I'm always
like don't go for sensitive, gofor the happy-go-lucky, doesn't
care what mood you're in,because because you go for
(21:58):
sensitive and then you just get,but you want highly trainable,
right, but not too sensitive.
It's a really hard, it's areally big ask and there's a lot
of different things in therethat just become like the more
you start thinking about whatyou're looking for in a service
dog candidate, the more youstart getting like wait, and
(22:19):
then you get an owner trainerwho then has additional
requirements like, well, wedon't want shedding, okay, and
now now our pool's gettingsmaller and smaller yeah, in
that regard.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
I mean it's almost like you need a dating app for
people to match with servicedogs.
I mean, there's so manyvariables, so we had talked
about that.
You know sourcing from breedersand from organizations that
focus specifically on breedingfor service dogs, but so where
else can people go?
For?
You mentioned owner trainers.
Is there a service or somethingyou provide where you help
(22:51):
people match with a certain dog?
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yeah, so well when I teach professional dog trainers
how to train service dogs andone of the things that I teach
them is we talk about like forowner trainers is to definitely
provide a before you got the dogconsult.
And I encourage owner trainersto go and find a qualified
service dog trainer beforethey've gotten their dog so they
(23:17):
can get some coaching on whatto look for and realize that
even with all of the coachingand all the guidance and even
getting a dog from a breederthat has generations of
producing service dogs, there'sstill not a guarantee you're
going to get public access, apublic access appropriate
service dog, because there areso many different aspects to
that.
(23:37):
But it is really good to go toa professional trainer to get
some guidance on that.
But it is really good to go toa professional trainer to get
some guidance on that.
And great service dogs, I mean,can come from kind of
everywhere, but they're hard tofind and you have to be aware of
that.
And then I always say with like, owner trainers need to be
(23:59):
right from the beginning.
Just be aware they might notend up with a dog that is
appropriate for public access.
That's just the hard reality ofthe situation.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
With that in mind, can you talk about the financial
aspect of it too?
Because you know, let's say,somebody goes and gets a dog and
they select a dog from theshelter.
They find what they feel isperfect match, but it doesn't
end up working out well for them.
Their dog isn't able to meetthe needs of the particular task
.
And they now are with this dogand they've spent some time and
(24:32):
money and probably are connectedand bonded with the dog, but
then they have to go findanother dog.
So what do we do there?
What are the options there?
And as far as also thefinancial aspect, people with
disabilities often are havingdifficulty from the financial
standpoint and I imagine servicedog training can get quite
costly.
Are there financial aidsituations that can happen or
(24:54):
other assistance programs inplace?
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Right.
So first, there's, like,essentially, you know, two ways
to get a service dog.
If I went down to it.
One is to apply to a nonprofitprogram that trains service dogs
, and one of the issues we'rehaving right now is that the
demand is so high that it's notunusual to see four-year wait
lists or longer than that.
I used to I want to say likefive years ago I always said I
(25:20):
used to say two-year wait lists.
I literally have had to changethat.
It's not unusual to seeprograms that aren't taking
people to waitlist because ofthe demand being as high as what
it is.
So the other option is toselect and train your own dog
for service work and in thatcase I would say, ideally you're
getting coaching from a trainerthat can provide some guidance,
(25:40):
maybe even provide some leadsor breeder referrals even.
But let's say, you do what Idid on my second service dog,
thinking, you know, because myfirst service dog was a very
easy to train dog for publicaccess, because I got lucky and
I just that's literally I justgot lucky.
He was very, very natural, lowkey dog and I did what you know.
(26:02):
At that point I was fairly newlydisabled and that's not unusual
from what I'm seeing now, thatpeople are getting service dogs
because they're so aware of thebenefits of service dogs that
they're getting them a littleearlier.
So that means we're adjustingto disability and we're getting
a dog at the same time.
(26:22):
So there's a lot of changes andthings coming in.
We're going in with a lot ofhope and we've also now
experienced a lot of stressbecause we're adjusting to our
own health condition.
Then you go to the animalshelter because you did
essentially exactly what I didand then ended up with oh, you
know, I've put a lot of time,money, effort and at 11 months
(26:46):
my dog was showing reactivity.
I had some extra disappointmentat that point because he
actually had.
I was kind of rushing.
I tell people now not to rushthe training process because we
know adolescent behavior isparticularly likely to change.
That's a time where there's alot of up and down and in my
(27:08):
case with my dog, he was anadolescent and that was when he
was changing.
But had I waited to do some ofthe assessments until he was
closer to two, I might not havebeen so disappointed.
So like oh my gosh, something'shappening.
Because I would have been sodisappointed so like oh my gosh,
something's happening, becauseI would have been more ready for
(27:29):
that In that case, like mostowner trainers and in my
experience the vast majority ofowner trainers when they get a
dog they end up committing tothe dog and so the majority of
the time they fall in love withtheir dog.
And so then, if the dog has abehavior problem, that needs to
be addressed first, and so I didthat.
I worked myself, I gotcolleagues recruited, help
addressed my dog's behaviorproblem, and that, of course, is
(27:52):
not going to be a perfect fix.
You're not going to end up withpublic access at that point,
but you need to have a dog thatyou can live with and manage
safely first and that you have agood quality of life for the
dog, and then after that, insome cases, it might be
appropriate to then train sometasks and have the dog as an
(28:13):
at-home helper, an at-home onlyservice dog.
Now, that would be a dog that'sjust basically trained tasks,
just to help you at home, andwith more and more people
working from home, in some casesthat can be exactly what the
person needs.
For me, at that point when thathappened in my life, I was not
working, I was newly disabled, Iwas in and out of hospitals and
(28:36):
I was in a really goodsituation to need an at-home
only service dog.
So actually my dog wasextremely helpful during that
time period to me and I was sodisappointed that he didn't end
up being public access.
But the reality was that hissensitivity, which was a big
problem for public access, was ahuge asset for me at home With
(29:01):
some tasks, hearing tasks,alerts, things like that.
If the person's working fromhome again, that might be a
perfect fit.
I say trainers who are gonna doan at-home only service dog, I
do caution them because we don't.
The law in the United States isso vague.
I say get everything in writing, have an attorney, review your
contract.
You wanna make sure yourclient's fully on board.
(29:21):
You wanna make sure yourclient's fully on board?
You want to make sure yourclient understands why the dog
is not going to go out in public, that it's not fair to the
public, it's not fair to otherservice dogs, it's not fair to
the dog and that they fullyunderstand that and that they're
on board.
You don't want to be trainingan at-home only service dog when
the person isn't really inagreement with that or might
(29:42):
push the dog further.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Just a quick follow-up question on that, if
somebody just had me thinking athome and people working from
home is there protections for,say, somebody has a landlord and
they're like I want to chargeyou 500 bucks a month for your
pet, that kind of pet payment orsomething like that.
Is there protections againstthat?
Or what's the law around that?
Do you know?
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Remember earlier when I talked about ESAs and that's
like the pocket where they stillexist in the United States is
in housing.
So there's still technically.
Yes, I guess there would be.
I always want to say likeverify this with an attorney.
Because whether any particularcase and what documentation
(30:27):
might be needed.
I don't, you know, I don't know, and I really mean that because
also, like, a lot of these lawsaren't tested, we don't have
like a lot of cases with likeindividual details, so we don't
know what will happen inparticular subtleties of
particular cases, because, Imean, service dogs have been
around for a while but this biggrowth is new, so we don't have
(30:51):
a lot of precedent, you know,for this.
You know, not all countrieseven have laws that acknowledge
the existence of another servicedog other than, say, a guide
dog.
Some of them don't even and I'mtalking about European
countries here, I'm not talkingabout, like you know, these are
there's countries that justthere's not even in the books,
that don't even define them, andso there's still a lot of
(31:12):
groundbreaking in the servicedog world Interesting.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
So my understanding is that, like a landlord can't
deny somebody from having aservice dog in their apartment,
is that correct?
Almost like well, I guess thequestion is some places they
can't force somebody, forinstance, to build a ramp in
some I guess it depends on thesize of the unit or something
like that.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Well, I mean, the law is so complicated and
convoluted because I live, likeI mentioned, I live outside of
DC, so there's like buildingsthat are historical and so they
get weird ways of becomingaccessible that aren't always
fully accessible.
And you know, you start lookingand like, wait, what size of
wheelchair fits into thiselevator, or you know, or so
(32:02):
anyway, that's kind of servicedog law.
It can get really complicatedand convoluted, and I was really
only talking about federal lawhere.
States have laws too.
So when it comes to likeservice dogs in training, you
have to look at state laws, andstate laws vary state by state
and if you're in a place likeCanada, you're looking at
(32:22):
provinces and I mean.
So again, there's a reasoneveryone's confused.
I know sometimes dog trainersget frustrated, these people
don't know, and I'm like, yeah,nobody really knows, because
it's very confusing.
And then when we add in termslike ESA, so forth, and
everybody, nobody knows what tosay or how to respond to that,
(32:43):
because it's just, you know,people confuse emotional support
animals with service dogstrained to help people who have
mental illness, but they are notthe same thing Again.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
So yeah, yeah, and you see that if you, if you see,
like, if you're on social mediaand you see some of these
videos and, for whatever reason,the algorithms feed me those
videos of somebody out withtheir service dog and getting
confronted and you can see theconfusion, like some people just
have no clue about the laws atall and some people have many
misconceptions.
So it's really interesting andso it is very confusing and I
(33:16):
agree with that.
It's not an easy landscape tonavigate at all.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
I should even qualify this, because in many countries
the term is actually assistancedog, it's not ESS, so yeah, and
so in many countries it's noteven yeah, so then we add that
to it and the terms can bedifferent in different countries
, so it just becomes a thing.
There was a lot of confusionabout that.
(33:44):
Now I'm like service slashassistance dog.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
All right, we're going to take a quick break to
hear a word from our sponsorsand we're going to come back and
I'd love to dive into whathappens if a service dog is
attacked by another dog orexperiences something negative
like that.
So we'll be right back.
Hey friends, it's me again andI hope you are enjoying this
episode.
(34:14):
Don't forget to join me for thefifth annual Aggression and
Dogs Conference, either inperson or online, from
Scottsdale, arizona, fromOctober 11th to the 13th 2024.
This year's lineup includesmany incredible speakers,
including Dr Clive Wynn, drJessica Heckman, emma Parsons,
sarah Kallnice, lori Lawless,carmeletta Ofterheide, jess
(34:34):
Feliciano, dr Amy Cook and manymore.
Head on over toaggressivedogcom and click on
the conference tab to learn moreabout the exciting agenda on
everything from advancedconcepts in dog body language to
working with aggression inshelter environments, to genetic
influences on behavior.
Dr Amy Cook will be bringingher entertaining and energetic
personality to the grandreception and cocktail party
(34:57):
which, by the way, will be livestreamed as well as in person,
will be live streamed as well asin person and, as usual, you'll
find a wonderful, kind, caringand supportive community at the
conference, both in person andonline.
I also want to take a moment tothank one of our wonderful
sponsors this year Pets for Vets.
Did you know that approximately1 million shelter animals are
euthanized in the US every year?
(35:18):
At the same time, many of ourcountry's veterans are
experiencing post-traumaticstress disorder, traumatic brain
injury, anxiety and ordepression.
Pets for Vets founder andexecutive director, clarissa
Black, created a solution forthese problems by rescuing and
training animals for veterans.
Pets for Vets has a uniqueprogram model that customizes
(35:41):
each match between a veteran anda shelter animal to create what
is known as a super bond.
Each animal is selected andtrained specifically for each
veteran, based on the nuancedrelationship between animal
behavior and human personality,to ensure a successful,
reciprocal and enrichedrelationship.
Pets for Vets has a positivereinforcement mentality at its
(36:03):
core for animals, veterans andtrainers.
In addition to helping veteransand rescue animals, clarester
has created a generousopportunity for positive
reinforcement trainers to joinour organization.
Trainers are able toparticipate anywhere in the US
while receiving stipends,professional development
opportunities and maintaining aflexible schedule.
(36:24):
Pets for Vets is also seekingnew partnerships with animal
shelters and rescue groups fromaround the country.
For more information, pleasevisit petsforvetscom.
All right, we're back here withVeronica Sanchez.
We have been talking aboutservice dogs and we're going to
jump right into the.
(36:44):
We have been talking aboutservice dogs and we're going to
jump right into the topic ofwhat do we do now if a service
dog is attacked by an off-leashdog or any other animal for that
matter, or person, but let'ssay it's another dog.
What are some things that wehave to think about there?
Because sometimes that singleevent learning can be so
profound where just that oneattack can be incredibly
detrimental to both the personand the dog and, you know, can
(37:06):
cause injuries, it can cause,you know, behavioral changes.
So what do you suggest there?
It's kind of a broad question,but what are your thoughts on
that?
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Right.
Well, we do hear about thisquite a bit.
I'll mention that in the UnitedStates, there are many states
that do have special legalprotections for service dogs and
there can be consequences forpeople creating that situation
having an off-leash dog, theiroff-leash dog attack a service
dog.
So there are states that haveadditional penalties and fines
(37:36):
for hurting a service dog.
Now, obviously, yeah, it canabsolutely be an issue and there
are people who had service dogsthat have had to be retired
early because the dog did notrecover from the experience.
So, ideally, if somethingterrible happens, that the
handler of the service dog isable to protect the dog in some
(37:58):
way, prevent it from happening,and then contacts if the dog
came from a program or ifthey're working with a trainer,
contacts their trainerimmediately for some next steps
to what to do.
It might be a short publicaccess vacation to give the dog
some downtime to regroup, andthen a slow you know, depending
upon what actually happenedcounter-conditioning,
(38:20):
desensitization, whatever it isthat you might need to do to
reintroduce One thing that I dotalk about and this isn't even
just there are so many servicedogs and dogs and not even just
service dogs.
So many locations arepet-friendly now that were not
pet-friendly before.
So service dogs areencountering pets and having to
(38:41):
work in close proximity withother dogs pretty much
everywhere at this point a lotof places anyway.
So I do think that that needsto be considered in the training
process right from thebeginning.
I know with my own dog, everytime my dog sees a dog, my dog
gets food and has from eightweeks every time.
(39:03):
It's like you see a dog, lookat me get food every single time
trying to put that in the bankto try to stack the odds in the
favor.
And almost every time I go outagain I'm in a more urban area
almost every time I go out mydog is going to get, at the very
minimum, barked at aggressive,reactive by another reactive dog
(39:27):
.
That's going to happen prettymuch every single time, just
because of the fact that where Ilive and there's a lot of dogs
and so you know we justcontinuously work on a circle,
move away, and I just I train alot of patterns of like a, just
a simple U-turn.
You know, when you're workingwith adaptive equipment, you've
(39:50):
got to work with the adaptiveequipment, so like with a
wheelchair, I use a walker a lot, so I do a lot of U-turns and I
will position my walker betweenmy dog and the other dog.
It's not much of a visualbarrier, but it's better than no
visual barrier.
And with handlers usingwheelchairs, similar Just
practice that pattern over andover and over and over again and
(40:12):
lots and lots and lots of food.
But yeah, I mean, it'sdefinitely an issue.
I think it's harder for servicedogs now than it has been
before Because we have thecombination of more pet friendly
locations, people loving totake their dogs out with them
more to more locations, and thenalso, even if you're in a
(40:33):
location that is not a petfriendly location, the odds of
encountering another service dogteam there are pretty high, and
not all of those dogs areselected to.
Ideally we want to say all theservice dogs have been selected
perfectly, but obviously they'renot, and so you might encounter
even in a not pet-friendlylocation you might encounter a
(40:56):
dog that's reacting and stressed, so it's definitely like a
constant thing.
It's a lot to ask what we'reasking for these dogs to do,
which is why I think we'retalking so much.
I mean, in the pet world we'retalking about this.
You know the decompression,enrichment, you know all these
kinds of things to try to reducetheir stress level.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Yeah, yeah, and you brought up a good point there.
Even some service dogs mighthave issues with the dogs in
some environments.
That's another thing to contendwith Do you teach anything to
your students about what to doif an attack happens?
So let's say you are going onthe street and there's some
off-leash dog and there's noowner in sight and it's coming
after your dog.
(41:39):
Do you teach anything for anemergency handling perspective
or what to do in that kind ofsituation?
Speaker 2 (41:44):
So right now I'm working with trainers and then a
lot of them are behaviorconsultants too.
But when I work directly withpeople with disabilities, with
their service dogs, we talked alot about and we practiced
really quick moveaways a lotuntil they were really good at
doing the U-turn, the pattern,and we talked a lot about how to
(42:07):
do that kind of thing in orderto make space as quickly as
possible.
It's always a little bit of atoss-up when the dog's off leash
, because tightening up on yourleash versus taking your chances
and relaxing the leash andhoping things go well.
So, uh, it's always like one ofthose like um, yeah, now, uh,
(42:28):
the one thing I will say with myservice dog Handler is that
off-leash was not as much of anissue with my clients with
mobility disabilities, becausethey're not usually in parks,
usually they're in urban areaswhere the leashes are on.
So it was more like a matter ofmaking space and moving away
(42:50):
and trying to do that quickly,which is really hard to do with
adaptive equipment, because ifyou're walking on a sidewalk and
you're approaching somebody, aperson in a wheelchair, that
wheelchair they don't drive thesame on grass that they do on
cement.
Power wheelchairs are faster ona straight line than they are
when they turn.
So as soon as you start turningit's almost like they stop.
(43:13):
So even just like pass-byspassing by people with other
dogs, people don't make space.
This has been an issue for mealso with a walker, and I'll be
just in an urban area justmoving.
We don't want dogs nose to noseright, like I mean in general.
We don't want them like justmoving up, nose to nose and a
person who's using adaptiveequipment.
(43:34):
They can't turn their equipment, the dog's trapped.
If you can sort of envision it,they're more likely to be
trapped.
They can't move from one sideto the other.
You can't have as loose leashbecause the leash entangles in
the adaptive equipment.
So you can't have like, oh, I'mgoing to let you move for front
, can't move behind because theperson can't move their hand
(43:55):
behind.
Or you can't hold onto a walkerand then have your leash behind
you.
Yeah, you pretty much have apivot in most cases.
So pivot, pivot, pivot, yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
Interesting you know as you were talking there about.
You know certain environmentsand off-leash dogs.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
I know.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
You have students all over the world, you know
trainers.
And have you ever heard anydiscussion or heard from any
students about that, living incountries where there's a
tremendous amount of off-leashdogs?
So free-roaming dogs, so freeroaming dogs.
Now, the interesting thing forme is those dogs typically
aren't going to be charging uprandomly to strange dogs,
because that wouldn't usuallywork out well for them.
(44:36):
But, they're also very tolerant.
They're very, you know, justliving the life.
They don't need to charge up tosome strange dog.
But it can happen, you know.
You go by somebody's housebecause a lot of those times in
some countries they're freeroaming but they're also
territorial about certain areas.
Or they live at somebody'shouse but they have free access
to go out on the street and whatwill happen is they charge out
onto the road, or they chargeand then they stop.
They don't do anything furtherthan that, they just kind of
(44:57):
announce hey, this is myproperty, get away.
But have you heard from any ofyour students about what the
impacts and influences there?
Is it a problem?
Does it change things?
Because it's a lot different.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
That is different.
That is a really differentsituation.
I have not had students who'veshared that with me in terms of,
like their own clients havingthat be kind of a major issue.
In terms of, like, just streetdogs in particular, it's more
(45:28):
what I hear is more likeencountering reactive dogs in
public access that's the biggestkind of complaint that I get
and that they go out and thentheir dog is getting trapped or
cornered in a public accessenvironment.
I don't know too if it's likecause.
If I think about I mean, thathas to be an issue.
(45:51):
I you know, and if you'reliving in a city where there's a
lot of street dogs, I wouldimagine that that still has to
be an issue.
But since they are stoppingshort and just barking, I'm kind
of almost envisioning me insuburban Northern Virginia of
your invisible fence situationwhere you're walking past yards
and the dogs are just likerunning up and stopping short,
(46:16):
so you're like, oh wait, oh, youstopped so, but you don't know
until you actually you know arethere that they're going to stop
.
Yeah, I mean, I think like theonly good thing about situations
like that is that if it's yourneighborhood and you live there,
you're going to know, kind oflike, where they are.
(46:38):
So I would imagine that in thatkind of situation you can at
least predict your path, predictyour walking location, predict
your path, because I wouldimagine street dogs have
predictable patterns wherethey're going to hang out at.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
An interesting thing for me too now I I'm thinking
more about this is you werementioning earlier about
tolerance and how adaptive theyare to not reacting back, and
when you think about that,that's such a beautiful trait to
have, because oftentimes that'swhat gets the other dog to
escalate.
You know some reaction.
They come out, bark, bark, bark,bark, bark, and then nothing
happens from the other dog theother dog's, like you know.
(47:11):
Hey, relax, buddy, and thenlife goes on as normal.
It's actually you know, if dogsresponded to that all the time,
we would have much less issuesbetween dogs, Right?
Speaker 2 (47:20):
So yeah, well, you kind of reminded me of something
I do want the dog to look atthe handler when there's another
dog, because I don't want themjust staring at the dog that's
barking, because that's going tomake that situation worse.
So I do talk about, like youknow, we're going to try to have
(47:40):
your dog try to help thesituation as much as possible by
not continuing to stare andturning away and moving away,
and so we're not giving thatother dog a reason to get more
nervous.
Speaker 1 (47:52):
And do you think a big part of it also is that in
training, during the trainingstages and really socialization,
habituation, acclimation to theenvironment, it's because we're
also setting scenarios with theother dogs in the environment.
Often, I'm guessing, otherservice dog trainees are all
together and they're alllearning like, hey, we can
ignore each other completely,Like there's no need to pay
(48:14):
attention to you.
Do you think that has a lot ofbearing?
This dog is now learning that,hey, most other dogs just ignore
me, so I don't have to worryabout other dogs.
Do you think that builds a lotof like foundational resiliency?
I guess for lack of a betterword- I think so.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
I mean, I think that when I worked with owner
trainers I did one on one andtheir dogs were exposed to my
dog.
But when I live in a fairlylike I mentioned urban area, I
think most dogs are not reacting, even in my urban area.
So it's like you know, it'slike what?
10% right Majority.
So if you go out and you gettreats every time you pass a dog
and then one of the dogs isbarking but you still get the
(48:56):
treat and nothing bad happened,right, you got barked at and we
moved away and it was like anon-event For a lot of dogs.
If that's how they're raisedand experiencing and if the
dog's in a group class and theydo have a lot of training and a
lot of sometimes some servicedog programs run them in group
classes the programs are goingto be working with groups of
dogs.
I also do like to do a lot ofsocial facilitation, bringing an
(49:17):
experienced service dog alongwith the team.
So you have like this dog,that's like eh, whatever, that
you know that's not a big deal.
You're getting a lot of cues ofthings not being a big deal and
you're working right from that,beginning to try to build
resilience in the dog building,you know, confidence.
I also think there's a lot to besaid to for with owner trained
(49:41):
service dogs in particular,because owner trainers sometimes
see like a service dog programwhere they'll see like, well,
there's that lab in the vest atnine months, there's that lab in
the vest at you know nine or 10months in the mall or in the
whatever, and I'm like that's aprogram bred lab.
That's not the dog you picked,you know.
So, yeah, you know, you pickeda herding breed mix.
(50:05):
So you know, go slower andacknowledge the adolescent
period, because some of thesedogs they're just, they're not
reactive forever.
They're reactive at 11 months,they're having a bad month and
if they are just hanging aroundyour backyard or doing long line
walks in the woods from 11 to14 months and then you go back
(50:30):
and work with them again,they'll be okay.
So I think, particularly forowner trainers, I would love to
redefine what looks like servicedog training for them, because
a lot of times owner trainersare looking at a program model
and not looking at the dog thatthey have in front of them and
then adjusting that, because Idon't think that they all
(50:53):
automatically don't end up beingokay for public access just
because they had a really badadolescence.
I've seen some really greatservice dogs that if you looked
at them when they wereadolescents you would have been
like, oh you know, that dog'safraid of the universe and not
able to focus anywhere.
I always like think, like,please, no one judge me based on
(51:15):
my behavior at 16.
So forever.
Speaker 1 (51:20):
Yeah, yeah, you bring up such a really good point
there.
You know, adjusting for thelearner that's in front of us
and in that regard, maybe wecould spend the last few minutes
here talking about maybe if youcan give me keeping in mind,
this is an aggression podcastmaybe your top three tips for
because there's a lot oftrainers listening into this
show and what are maybe your topthree tips for trainers
(51:43):
accommodating people withdisabilities in there.
So they maybe they get hired bya client.
That person has a disabilityand they also have a dog with a
history of aggression orreactivity.
So, along those lines maybe whatwould be some of your top
suggestions for those trainersto look for or help or research
or whatever comes top of mindfor you.
Speaker 2 (52:03):
So I would look at what the number one thing is.
Look at what the person can do.
So you want to focus on whatthat person's abilities are, so
maybe they can really use theirvoice really well and you're not
used to using voice as a way ofgetting and keeping the dog's
attention because their treatdelivery is too slow.
Well then, help them, maximizethe use of their voice to get
(52:25):
their dog's attention andrefocus their dog and it.
You know, it's like lots ofpraise, lots of happy talk.
So you want to focus on whatthe person can do.
I would also say we as trainers,when you're breaking your
criteria down, a lot of timeswhen you're working with someone
with a disability, it can helpto break it down more than what
(52:48):
you might normally do.
So let's say you're doingsomething really simple, like I
talked about pivots and U-turns,because that's like my go-to
with like move, get away, okay.
Like kind of turn around, getaway.
We're going to make some space.
So have the client practice theU-turn with their adaptive
equipment without the dog,because the adaptive equipment
(53:11):
requires concentration to thinkabout.
It's like driving a car andthen you're trying to drive a
car and train a dog at the sametime and it's a reactive dog, so
you're doing a lot and so ifyou imagine that and then you
know in the sidewalk and reallygetting that you need to be
really smooth on that U-turnwith the adaptive equipment
before you can add the dog in.
(53:32):
So have them.
Break that criteria down toeven smaller pieces and I would.
The other thing is I wouldteach less and build it to
fluency more, so like if I'mdon't try to do 50 million
strategies, try to do like twoor three and really get those
like to fluency, because I meanhonestly, like a nose touch,
(53:56):
like a really solid nose touchto hand can get you so much.
So like you know, so right,like, yeah, so just like
practice that in a milliondifferent contexts and slowly
and build fluency with that.
You know it's already a complexsituation, so try to simplify
(54:16):
it and just have it reallyfluent and really well
generalized.
Speaker 1 (54:21):
Fantastic.
Love it.
I love it all, Veronica.
Thank you so much.
Where can people find you?
Where can people reach out toyou if they need to?
Speaker 2 (54:31):
can people find you?
Where can people reach out toyou if they need to?
Cooperative Paws, which is mywebsite, cooperativepawscom.
I have a contact page.
I have courses that I offerthere for trainers interested in
learning about service dogtraining and a certificate
program for trainers who want toreally get involved with that
the service dog coach programand I also have a blog.
Get involved with that theService Dog Coach program and I
(54:53):
also have a blog.
And for pet trainers who arejust working with clients with
disabilities that blog you canput different terms in the
search and maybe like workingwith clients with speech
disabilities, and there are allthe blog posts that I've written
about that, and thoseaccommodations would apply to a
pet trainer as well.
So the blog there is free.
And then I'm on Instagram atCooperative Paws, and then also
(55:18):
on Facebook too.
Speaker 1 (55:21):
Excellent, excellent.
Yeah, so I'll be sure to linkthose in the show notes.
Thank you so much.
This was super educational forme and, I'm sure, for the
listeners, and I hope to see youagain in the future.
Thank you so much for having mesuper educational for me and,
I'm sure, for the listeners, andI hope to see you again in the
future.
Speaker 2 (55:32):
Thank you so much for having me.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (55:35):
I really learned a lot about service dogs chatting
with Veronica.
She truly is a wealth ofinformation on this topic and
I'm really glad we had theopportunity to bring more
awareness about the importantroles of service dogs that they
play in our community.
And don't forget to head onover to aggressivedogcom for
more information about helpingdogs with aggression, from the
Aggression and Dogs MasterCourse to webinars from
(55:57):
world-renowned experts and evenan annual conference.
We have options for both petpros and pet owners to learn
more about aggression and dogs.
We also have the Help for Dogswith Aggression bonus episodes
that you can subscribe to.
These are solo shows where Iwalk you through how to work
with a variety of types ofaggression, such as resource
guarding, dog-to-dog aggression,territorial aggression,
(56:18):
fear-based aggression and much,much more.
You can find a link tosubscribe in the show notes or
by hitting the subscribe buttonif you're listening in on Apple
Podcasts.
Thanks for listening in and, asalways, stay well, my friends.
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