Conflict Resolution: An Essential Skill for Aggression Cases and Beyond, with Carmaleta Aufderheide

Ever wondered how to navigate emotionally charged training sessions? Our latest episode features Carmaleta Aufderheide, who brings a unique blend of a master’s degree in conflict resolution and a robust background in working behavior cases. Carm’s journey began from a personal loss that fueled her passion to merge these fields. She emphasizes the critical role of empathy and communication, sharing invaluable techniques for understanding both the human and canine sides of aggression and separation anxiety cases.

We explore the art of reading clients as skillfully as reading dogs. Carm shares her insights on balancing actionable solutions with empathetic listening, highlighting the importance of recognizing non-verbal cues and the emotional states of clients. In this episode, you will hear how to create a safe environment and build effective relationships with clients, ensuring that your advice lands effectively and fosters positive change.

ABOUT CARM:

Carmaleta (Carm) is a positive reinforcement/force-free trainer in Springfield, Oregon.  She holds a Master's degree in Conflict Resolution (CRES), is a graduate of the Karen Pryor Academy (KPA-CTP), is a Certified Professional Dog Trainer (CPDT-KA), and a Certified Separation Anxiety Trainer (CSAT). 

In 2016, Carm completed her Master's degree in conflict and dispute resolution (CRES) from the University of Oregon.  Her academic journey included research exploring the potential restorative impact of prison animal programming through interviews with incarcerated individuals working with and sharing their confined living quarters with dogs nationwide.  She has contributed insights from her research to a chapter in the book “Prison Dog Programs” published by Springer.  It was this research that inspired her career working with dogs. 

From 2016 to 2020, she dedicated her time to transformative initiatives as she co-directed and facilitated an innovative education and restorative justice program with adults in custody at Oregon State Correctional Institution with The Insight Development Group (IDG).  Her work with IDG allowed her to witness firsthand the profound impacts of education and restorative practices among individuals often in conflict with themselves, their past, present, and future.  Drawing inspiration from her research and work with IDG, Carm applies lessons from these experiences to bridge better connections in her work with dogs and their families. 

Today, Carm owns Northstar Training Solutions, where her work focuses on canine separation anxiety. Building on her background in conflict resolution (CRES), she specializes in bringing mediation and facilitation skills to navigate challenging conversations and enhance outcomes when communication becomes difficult. 

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ctp, a CPTTKA and a CSAT orSeparation Anxiety Trainer.

(00:44):
She specializes in appliedconflict resolution and positive
reinforcement training.
Carm brings her knowledge inpositive reinforcement
techniques to complex behaviorproblems, ensuring effective and
humane training practices.
She leverages academic insightsto address and resolve
conflicts within professionaldog training to facilitate

(01:04):
better training outcomes.
Over the past decade hermission has been to improve
client communication, connection, training, compliance and
navigating difficultconversations with compassion
and understanding by applyingsimple tools to the trade in
conflict resolution to optimizeoutcomes.
And if you are enjoying thebitey end of the dog, you can

(01:26):
support the podcast by going toaggressivedogcom, where there's
a variety of resources to learnmore about helping dogs with
aggression issues, including theupcoming Aggression and Dogs
Conference happening fromOctober 11th to 13th 2024 in
Scottsdale, arizona, with bothin-person and online options.
You can also learn more aboutthe Aggression in Dogs Master
Course, which is the mostcomprehensive course available

(01:48):
anywhere in the world forlearning how to work with and
help dogs with aggression issues.
I also have a wide variety ofwebinars, upcoming courses,
videos and articles, all fromthe foremost experts in training
and behavior.
We are your one-stop shop forall things related to aggression
in dogs.
Hey, everyone, welcome back tothe Bitey End of the Dog.

(02:11):
We've got a very special topicthis week.
It's on conflict resolution andI can't think of anybody else
better to talk about this,especially in our community.
Calm After Heidi is here withus, so welcome Carm.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
Thank you.
I'm super happy to be here,mike.
Thank you so much for invitingme onto the podcast and to give
me a platform, an opportunity tobring conflict resolution and a
few suggestions skills tips topeople that I think they'll find
helpful in how they're workingwith their clients.

Speaker 1 (02:43):
Yes, I think this is such a much needed topic to talk
about in our community becauseof all the problems we can face
and the issues and the struggles.
So let's start with you knowwhat got you into this kind of
work.
So were you training first?
Are you doing other kinds ofwork?
What is your background in this?

Speaker 2 (02:59):
It's such a great question.
I am a late bloomer, I considermyself a late bloomer in life.
Question I am a late bloomer, Iconsider myself a late bloomer
in life and I got into conflictresolution before I was a
trainer, which is why it hadsuch a heavy influence into how
I started practicing and startedtraining.
The story of how I got intoconflict resolution is pretty
interesting.
I go ahead and I pursueconflict resolution.
I apply to the program.

(03:20):
I get in surprise to me,surprise, surprise.
Couldn't believe I actually gotin.
I apply to the program.
I get in surprise to me,surprise, surprise.
Couldn't believe I actually gotin.
But I did, because I thought Iwas just too old and I thought
they're going to say, oh good,try.
But I get in.
And I had a lovely, lovelygolden retriever at the time and
this dog was my heart dog and Ihad never experienced a

(03:42):
connection and a human animalbond in the way that I had with
this dog.
So about a week prior tostarting the program, jake was
his name got diagnosed with ahemangiosarcoma and three days
before starting the program hewas gone and I felt sucker
punched and I honestly trulydidn't think I could do the

(04:02):
program without him.
I didn't think I could do itwithout this dog at my side
because we were so connected andI leaned into him probably more
than I ever realized.
I did like most people do withtheir dog, but they have this
kind of connection.
I had never experienced that,and so what I did is I went
ahead and I started the program.
It was horrible, it was intotal grief and I decided

(04:23):
somewhere somehow I was going tofigure out how to merge the
world of dogs and conflictresolution together and the
program director at the timesaid good luck, nobody's ever
done anything like that.
I don't know how you're goingto do it, but let's see what
happens.
So I had pursued and did thenresearch in prison animal

(04:47):
programming and I was lookingspecifically at the human animal
bond.
It took an additional year inthe program to do it, but I went
to three different prisons inthree different states one in
Louisiana, one in Iowa and onein my home state here of Oregon
and I interviewed, sat andinterviewed inmates who were
either raising dogs for service,because I wanted that longer

(05:07):
term relationship.
I wanted to know what theimpact was.
I wanted to hear their storiesfrom their side about the
restorative processes that occuras a result of this work, and
then I, additionally, was ableto connect with a program where
a humane society is being runout of a prison system in
Louisiana, which was incredibleand amazing, and so that, when I

(05:32):
started, that reallyprecipitated my training career.
I graduated from CREZ and then Istarted working with dogs and I
got certified and everything Idid from that point forward just
felt natural to bring a CREZlens into it, and it was not
until I started going toconferences that I realized this

(05:54):
was an incredibly valuableskill, and the tools that I were
using in conversation with myclients to get better training
outcomes and to help them in abetter way were things that I
wanted to share and I felt therewas a need for and that people
were just kind of they had alittle bit of it, but they were
missing, and so that's kind ofhow it all comes together.

Speaker 1 (06:17):
Wow, that is an incredible story.
Thank you so much for sharingthat and it just really that's
an incredible journey thatyou've been on and you were
mentioning, you know, how couldwe bring conflict resolution and
dog training together.
But look at you now you're heretalking about it and it totally
makes sense and it resonateswith me.
So I kind of want to talk moreabout you know, since we're on

(06:37):
our aggression podcast and a dogtraining podcast, we should.
You know what are some of thecommon things, because you do a
lot of separation anxiety workand I do a lot of aggression
work and people think when youhear conflict that word conflict
you're like all right, this islike we're fighting or arguing
over something, but it's notalways that it might just be the
disagreement or differingthoughts.
So let's kind of dive into it.
What are some common?

(06:57):
Maybe?
Experiences in your separationanxiety work where you're seeing
what we would call like aconflict Sure work where you're
seeing what we would call like aconflict.

Speaker 2 (07:04):
Sure, yeah, I think this is such a great question
because, regardless of whetherand I think our two worlds come
together in a really interestingway is regardless of if it's
separation, anxiety or a casethat's coming to me with a dog
that's having trouble being homealone, or you're dealing with a
reactive aggression case the isthat when people find us and

(07:24):
they're coming to us, they areusually in crisis.
They are usually at a point intime where other things have
failed spectacularly and theyare reaching out for help and
pretty much at the end of theiremotional rope and what they are
looking for is really a rescue.
They're looking for someone tohelp rescue the situation

(07:46):
because they have nowhere elseto turn.
So I really appreciate thisquestion and what often comes up
for me is, in these cases, whenpeople come, is like holding
space for them.
It's really, honestly, thebeginning process of any consult
that I have, or any client thatI work with, is I find it my

(08:08):
responsibility and I take itvery seriously to hold space for
them and to pull in that CREZpart of my education and give
them that space where they feelsafe and they feel comfortable
enough and not judged.
They feel safe and they feelcomfortable enough and not
judged so suspending judgment isa huge part of this that they
feel safe enough to be able toexpress what they're feeling.

(08:30):
But then we also have thosepeople that come to us in these
cases whether it's aggression orseparation anxiety that want
help but also hold theiremotions and their feelings very
close to their chest because ofpast experiences.
So you know, and in that firstsession somebody may not just
spew their feelings and theiremotions and everything on the
table.
There's work to be done there.

(08:52):
There's work to be done invaluing what somebody has to
offer to the table.
So I go into every singleconsult assuming that I have
something to learn from thisclient, they have something to
teach me and I know that theyare contacting me because they
are looking for actionablethings and we feel the pressure

(09:12):
as behavior consultants toprovide those actionable things.
In aggression, clearly apriority is gonna be safety in
that first meeting, setting up asafe situation for the trainer
and everybody to walk into.
And then two I want to take alook at that assumption that
first meeting, setting up a safesituation for the trainer and
everybody to walk into.
And then two I want to take alook at that assumption of I
have something to learn from youand, yes, I feel the pressure

(09:33):
of giving you actionable things,but it's not my job to convince
you you need to do this.
It's my job to listen and beable to find those little
nuggets that tell me what'sgoing on for you and what your
lived experience is and whatyou're willing and able to find,
those little nuggets that tellme what's going on for you and
what your lived experience isand what you're willing and able
to put forward before we meetthe next time.
And that's where we're going togo.

(09:53):
We're going to put thosemanagement pieces in place and
we're going to talk about it andwe're going to do one single
actionable thing.

Speaker 1 (10:02):
I'd love to jump into some of the skills and tools
here that we can use for theseconversations.
One of the things I always justscream out there is the empathy
part of it.
Having empathy is such acrucial skill for anybody doing
behavior, consulting, work,because of those emotions you
were talking about.
Let's face it when we'retalking behavior cases like
separation, anxiety, aggressionwe need to have empathy because

(10:23):
of that People being at the endof their emotional rope, as you
just mentioned.
So, in addition to empathy,let's dive into some skills.
What do you typically recommend?
Let's say we have some newtrainers like okay, this sounds
great, I love training dogs butdon't really know much about
people, right?

Speaker 2 (10:40):
Yeah, and there's a misconception to the general
public that you know we get toplay with dogs all day and we do
On some level.
We get to work and you knowit's the joy of our lives and we
love doing it.
But there's a whole otherelement there and for trainers,
we are really skilled a lot oftime and invest a lot of time in

(11:06):
understanding how to readcanine body language and
understanding what a dog isfeeling and what a dog may be
experiencing through the bodylanguage and the carriage in
which, the way that they'recarrying themselves, how they're
reacting to things in theirenvironment, how they're
reacting to people, how they'rereacting to sound, how they're
reacting to being home alone,like all of those things.
But we're very skilled at that.
What we have let fall away inthat formula is how well are we

(11:28):
reading the people in front ofus?
How well are we noticing thosesmall little shifts that we
might notice in a dog's earcarriage?
Literally, an ear shifting backand forth would mean something
to us that we're not payingattention to in the people in
front of us.
So whenever I'm doing a consult,I want to pay really close
attention to the nonverbalcommunication that people are

(11:53):
giving me.
It's a gift.
They are gifting me with thisinformation and I receive it as
a gift.
Right, you'll see a shift.
You'll say something, you'llpresent it and we don't know
what's going to hit the mark ornot hit the mark with people
when we're saying it.
We're just providing information, given what we're seeing, the
conversation at hand, and I'malways watching for an eye shift

(12:17):
, a shift in weight, a shift intheir feet.
Did they tap their toes?
What are they doing with theirhands?
Do we see them close theirmouth a little bit tighter?
Do we see them glance away anddisengage for a second and then
come back into it?
That's a gift.
When I see that happen, I takenote of what were we talking
about, what was the languagethat I used, and then I have an

(12:39):
opportunity to just kind ofpause, to take that pause and
say what's coming up for you.
When I say this, what's comingup for you?
Because I noticed this ishappening.

Speaker 1 (12:52):
I like that.

Speaker 2 (12:53):
And actually give them the platform and
opportunity, instead of I keeptalking and I keep giving them
all this information.
I need to read the room and Ineed to be really as skilled at
reading the room and reading thepeople as I am at read the room
, and I need to be really asskilled at reading the room and
reading the people as I am atreading the dog.

Speaker 1 (13:06):
Yes, yes, it's such an important point.
Well, first of all, I'm notplaying poker with you anytime
soon.
So if a new trainer's startingout in consulting, is there a
particular resource yourecommend to learn more about
human body language, or do youhave like a couple of go-tos
just really briefly off the topof your head?

Speaker 2 (13:25):
Yeah, I mean, honestly, you can do just a
general search on human bodylanguage and there are like
wonderful websites on the justsubtleties of weight shifts, eye
glances, does somebody sit up alittle bit straighter?
Do they lean away?
Do they shift their weight away?
That kind of thing that tell methey're disengaging from me a
little bit.
I've lost them, so I need tostop and figure out what's going

(13:47):
on for them.
Why have I lost them?
And so, honestly, I just wouldrecommend for any new trainer
out there that they just do ageneral search and start looking
into basic human body languageand start applying it into, like
, everyday conversations they'reeven having at home with their
family, applying it intoeveryday conversations they're
even having at home with theirfamily.

(14:07):
And when they see a shift, noteit and just be like, hmm, ask
and engage with that and just belike, hmm, what's coming up for
you?
What are you thinking?
What's happening now?
And it's going to give youinformation.
It's like is what I'm thinkinghappening actually happening, or
am I reading this wrong?

Speaker 1 (14:22):
Yes, it's such a beautiful way.
It's so subtle too, because wecould say something else and we
might not realize it.
That could shut the door at thesame time.
So it's so subtle, but I lovethat you're asking the question
to really find out where they'reat, without being judgmental,
without accusing them ofanything, without getting
frustrated ourselves.
We're opening that door ratherthan closing it.

(14:43):
I love that, that particularquestion right at that moment.
So I was just going to kind ofshift to other tools you like to
use.
I want to get as much out ofthe toolbox that we can in this
episode, because that one wasreally good.
So what else would you considerin terms of strategies?
Maybe, like you mentionedearlier before we started,
emotional intelligence andsomething that I've had to work

(15:06):
on my whole life andunderstanding what that is, and
developing more of a you know,emotional, empathetic side to
these cases, because it's reallya significant part of these
cases that we work.

Speaker 2 (15:17):
Yeah, absolutely, emotional intelligence is
everything.
So the next piece of what Iwould want to introduce to any
new trainer or even anyexperienced you know well versed
trainer out there that's beendoing this for a long time and
they feel really comfortabletalking to people in these
really difficult situations.
Because what will happensometimes in our training
sessions is we will hitresistance, we will meet with

(15:42):
resistance of either to I.
I absolutely don't believe inmy dog's going on medications.
I only am going to give youabout four weeks of time and I
got to see if this is going towork.
So we feel the pressure of time.
They may have core beliefs andwe'll talk about a little bit.
We can go into core beliefsafter this if you want.
But they may have a wholehistory and beliefs, belief

(16:03):
system in aversive tools,because it's what they were
raised with, it's what theirhistory is in, and they're
reaching out to somebody inpositive reinforcement for a
reason.
They're interested.
They're dipping their toe inthe water, but I can easily push
them out of that and so I haveto be really mindful and careful
about how I do it.
And so there's a lot ofresistance and we can just have
a flat out disagreement withsomebody when we're in a

(16:25):
training session of like, Iabsolutely am not going to do
that, I don't agree with it, andthen we find ourselves in a
situation where it's like, okay,we got to take a step back down
that road.
That would be the next thing.
So the first thing is I'mreally, you know, I'm welcoming
them, I'm trying to, you know,I'm suspending judgment, which

(16:49):
was huge.
Every day is a practice insuspending judgment for me.
I am a work in progress.
We're really good at judging.
I'm super good at it.
I think most people are.
It's normal, it's a normal partof how we live.
It's a normal part of life.
And so learning to hearsomething, come at you and kind
of practice that poker face andnot show that, hmm, I don't like

(17:11):
that one.
Hmm, okay, we're going to goround and round about this one,
we're going to suspend judgmentbecause their lived experience
is theirs, it's not mine, andit's valid.
Whatever it is, it's valid.
And so emotional intelligenceturns the table on us.
It's not about what we'regetting from our clients, it

(17:31):
turns the table on us.
And what emotional intelligencereally breaks down into is
these five different pieces.
So there's self awareness, selfregulation, motivation, empathy
which we've kind of touched ona little bit, we'll go into a
little more and social skills.
And so when I'm turning thetable on me, when I have

(17:54):
somebody disagree, or I seesomething or I experience
something that triggers afeeling or emotion in me, and I
don't know what that's going tobe for anybody, but I know there
are certain things, certainphrases, certain things that are
going to trigger something forme in a training situation.
I need to know what is myunderstanding of my emotions and
thoughts, what comes up for me.

(18:14):
And then how good am I atreceiving that information and
having this chain of feelingskind of put into play for myself
but not get put into motionoutwardly, right?
So it's like, okay, I recognizethis is what it makes me feel
and how good am I at regulatingthat?

(18:34):
So that second piece is thatself-regulation.
I feel it it's definitely likea pain point for me and now I'm
experiencing these emotionswhich kind of shuts the door on
like what else I'm going to beable to receive from my client.
But then the second piece ofemotional intelligence is once I
get that information, how goodam I at regulating it so that I

(18:57):
can exercise emotional restraintright, so that I can be
controlled when triggered to beable to like step outside of it
and keep going forward and notputting emotions behind the
steering wheel.
Because if I let my emotionsthen in that moment get behind
the steering wheel, I've justgone way off track and I'm not
going to be able to help thesepeople.

(19:17):
I'm not going to be able tohelp them or their dog that are
in front of me.
And then empathy, my emotionalintelligence would be.
I'm looking at empathy from twodifferent perspectives.
I'm looking at it from anemotional empathy perspective
and then from a cognitiveempathy perspective.
And so cognitive empathy is Ican appreciate and understand

(19:39):
what somebody else isexperiencing and explaining to
me and I can kind of relate itto other life experiences I may
have had, but I may not have hadthat exact same experience with
a dog.
But I can certainly empathizewith how difficult and what a
crisis moment this is for thisfamily, for these people.
Whereas emotional empathy isI've had the same experience.

(20:00):
I totally can tap into whatyou're feeling and I know that
it's there.
I can play both of those piecesinterchangeably because I don't
have to have had the sameexperience to be empathetic
towards somebody and I shouldn'thave to have had the same
experience.
So my emotional intelligence ishow well am I able to like
extend that part of myself tothem while I'm emotionally

(20:21):
regulating if I feel triggeredby something right, and then I'm
thinking about what's themotivation?
So in my emotional intelligencepiece, what's motivating this
conversation?
It's not that it should neverbe, that I want recognition,
that I want money, that I wantany.
You know I'm looking forward inthat way.
Motivation needs to come from aplace of self-improvement and

(20:44):
self-development.
I want to be motivated to bebetter at these conversations
and to help these people in thismoment the best that I can, and
then that improves my socialskills and my ability to help
them.

Speaker 1 (20:58):
That's so well put because it really got me
thinking about, because we'rekind of looking at both sides of
the equation here.
We're looking at the clientside and their belief systems,
we're looking at the trainerside or the consultant side, and
it had me thinking about howmuch we might actually sabotage
our own behavior plans and ourown success in the case because
of our belief systems.
And it's definitely somethingI've become aware of in my

(21:21):
consulting work over the years.
Let's say it's a client thattells you you know, yeah, I pin
my dog down, I take a newspaperout and you hear all these awful
things that we have a visceralresponse to.
And when we're in a professionthat often most of us start off
because we're just caring aboutthe dogs, you know, really
focused on the dog's welfare andthose kind of things we hear

(21:43):
about those horror stories andcan have such an emotional
impact on us.
And then we find ourselvessitting in front of a client and
they're telling us these thingswhat are your recommendations
for people that might be?
At that moment they're like,okay, I haven't quite been able
to just brush these things off.
Or you know, this all soundsgreat, learning emotional
intelligence, but how do youactually get to that step and

(22:05):
what do you suggest fordeveloping that skill?
Because it is a skill and it'snot something that you can just
develop overnight and be like ohyeah, you know, you're seeing
animal abuse and then suddenlyyou're sitting in front of a
client telling you those things.
But we have to remainprofessional if we're going to
truly help that animal and theclient.

Speaker 2 (22:21):
Yeah, that's a really well said, really well stated
and such a great question.
Because you're right, like Ipersonally, like if I see a dog
chained outside, it's reallyhard for me.
And you're right, like clientsare going to come to us and
they're going to say things andthey're going to present a story
, a history, of this dog thatmay have pieces to it that are
extremely offensive to me.

(22:42):
So if you're new in this, thefirst thing that I would say is
be kind to yourself, giveyourself some grace.
Right, none of us are perfect.
I am still every single day.
This is something I work at.
It's something that I continueto work at.
I would never say I'm an expertat it, but I would say I am
well-practiced at it.

(23:03):
Okay, I would never call I'm anexpert at it, but I would say I
am well practiced at it.
Okay, I would never call myselfan expert in doing this, but I
would.
I would embrace that, that I'mwell practiced, and so I.
The first thing that I wouldtell people is is give yourself
some grace.
And if you want to practiceyour emotional intelligence, one
of the better ways to do it isjust in anytime you're watching
the news or anytime you'rewatching something, that

(23:25):
something comes up on your feedright On social media, that
triggers you, that absolutelysets an emotion and a feeling
and a mood in place, right, weget that chain reaction.
The first thing that I wantpeople to start doing is when
they feel that the first thoughtthat often comes to mind is
I've got to prove that that'snot correct.

(23:47):
I've got to prove that that'swrong and I've got to express it
, and I'm going to fight to thedeath on this.
Avoid taking that step.
And I want you to take a breathand take a step back, and I
want you to think about andstart really processing for
ourselves.
Why do I feel this way?
Why does this trigger thisresponse in myself?

(24:08):
Because I can't help somebodyelse if I don't even understand
why this is such an important,visceral thing for me.
It doesn't mean that you knowI'm always going to get there
and I'm always going to have anunderstanding, but I'm going to
keep working at that.
I'm going to take that stepback, I'm going to pause and I
want to say what's happening forme.
Why do I feel so strongly aboutthis and I lean into a thing

(24:32):
called the?
You know, if anybody's everheard me talk publicly, you will
hear me speak about a feelingswheel.
I love the feelings wheelbecause what it is and I had,
there's websites for it andthings but I often use a
feelings wheel and I've used itinside work that I've done with
inmates and incarceratedpopulations Because what happens
is like we have we have thesecore beliefs, and so what ends

(24:55):
up happening in the feelingswheel is like so we have happy,
angry, sad, and then we havefrustrated, you know whatever,
but whatever's on the positiveside, these are needs that are
being met.
Frustrated, you know whatever,but whatever's on the positive
side, these are needs that arebeing met.
Anytime we have somethingnegative that we feel or is
occurring for us, then we arehitting and touching on a need,
an emotional need for ourselvesthat is not being met.
And unless we really start toexplore and uncover the feeling

(25:20):
behind it, understanding why wefeel that way and what need
isn't being met or understood,we're never going to flip it to
the other side.
So on a feelings wheel, thenegative side or those unmet
needs are always on theopposites, just directly
opposite of the needs that arebeing met, and what happens is
those core beliefs are generallywhat people express.

(25:40):
They're like I'm angry, I'mhappy, I'm sad, I'm frustrated,
whatever.
But the reality is is like whatwe're seeing is we're
perceiving it as that, but itactually is filtered out into.
Maybe I'm not angry, maybe I'mjust feeling really isolated or
lonely, and this is really hardfor me, right?
And so I can help use thatfeelings wheel to identify what

(26:03):
somebody might be feeling.
I'm not labeling it, I'm notputting it on them.
It's like I think this iswhat's happening and I can help
explore that.
So I can do that for myself aswell.
If something comes up for me andI'm watching the news and
there's another school shootingor there's another thing that's
happening in the world that Ijust don't understand, I

(26:24):
approach it differently.
Instead of you know, it createsthis whatever emotional chain
reaction in myself, I take astep back and I'm like why do I
feel that way?
And if I'm looking at it andunderstanding it, then I have a
much better understanding of how, what needs to be met in order
for me to move forward with that.
And it's the same thing for ourclients.

(26:45):
It's the same thing.
It's like they they're going toput out these like feelings and
if I can help them in any wayunderstand what the root of
those expressions and thoseexperiences are, then I can
understand what isn't being metand together we can create goals
and we can create traininggoals.
But so, in a very longroundabout way of answering your

(27:05):
question, mike, if I'm lookingat how do I improve my skills, I
would start with anything thattriggers me and just identifying
what it is I feel and taking alook at like when that happens.
What's the history behind thatfeeling?
What's the history when thatoccurs that makes me feel that
way?
It's not right or wrong.

(27:26):
I'm not trying to fix it, I'mnot trying to answer it, I'm
just trying to understand it,because unless I understand it
I'm never going to be able tocrack the door to meeting the
need to get outside of thatcycle.

Speaker 1 (27:38):
I love everything you just said there Because when
you think about it, it's justparallel to dogs, of course,
that we're working with andunderstanding the cause, rather
than just looking at thesymptoms, right, and the
expression of our feelings thathappen without understanding the
reasoning, we can't help thatperson or animal.
So I'm loving how thisconversation is going, but we're
going to take a quick break tohear a word from our sponsors

(27:59):
and we'll be right back.
If you're interested in hearingmore about applicable and
immediate steps you can use withyour own dog or in your cases,
I have a subscription seriescalled Help for Dogs with
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(28:20):
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(28:40):
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notes to subscribe usingSupercast.
Your support of the show isvery much appreciated.
And don't forget to join me forthe fifth annual Aggression and
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(29:02):
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All right, we're back here withKarma.
We've been talking aboutconflict resolution, amongst
many other things that have beenreally helpful for me as well,

(30:46):
and really unpacking all of thehuman side of the work we do,
and you know we were justtalking about tools and you had
mentioned social media too.
I think that'd be helpful for alot of our listeners because one
of the most significantstruggles I hear from trainers
and consultants and my studentsis the impact of social media,
where they kind of need itsometimes to market.
I mean, some people disagreewith that, but let's face it.

(31:09):
We are in a social mediasociety where people find your
business and through socialmedia, so you sometimes have to
be on it and there's a lot ofboundaries you have to draw if
you're going to be healthy,really emotionally healthy.
It can be challenging whenyou're on social media.
So what are the differences?
When we're in person with aclient, we have the time, we can

(31:30):
see the body language, we canhave a much longer conversation
versus social media.
So what are yourrecommendations for trainers and
consultants listening that haveto deal with the trainer wars
and all the conflicts that canhappen on social media?

Speaker 2 (31:43):
It's such a good question and it's a really
powerful question, quitehonestly, because we live in a
social media world, we live in adigital world where we really
rely on these tools, like yousaid, to build our business and
to provide information and helpto people that we want to give.
So I think the biggestchallenge of social media, quite
honestly, is all of those toolsthat I use for conflict

(32:06):
resolution, in reading the room,reading somebody else's body
language, reading you know, allof those things that will cue me
into asking more questions,trying to understand how they
feel, trying to uncover whattheir history is, because if I'm
not considering their history,I'm not able to really fully
understand where they're comingfrom and what's going to be the
next step in my trainingapproach.

(32:28):
So what happens in social mediais all of that gets removed.
All of those pieces that Ireally rely and lean into
heavily to understand what'shappening for somebody get
removed, and so all I'm facedwith is sometimes something
really ugly coming at me, wheresomebody could be either

(32:49):
attacking my methods orattacking the methods that I
align with, or could be, youknow, just saying something not
so pleasant that's going totrigger me, and it's social
media has become this placewhere bullying becomes very,
very easy and bullying withoutrepercussions, and so I'm a

(33:10):
really big believer in thedifference between
accountability andresponsibility.
We'll kind of break that down alittle bit.
Responsibility is I takeresponsibility for it.
I did that.
I fully understand, I own itright.
Accountability is I own it.
I did that, and what do I needto do to repair the harms that

(33:31):
I've caused?
What do I need to do to makereparations for what's just
occurred or what's happened?
And so people in social mediadon't need to be either they
don't really necessarily have tobe responsible or accountable
to the things that they'resaying, which is difficult at
best.
And so what I often encouragepeople to do is when something

(33:56):
triggers them and somethingcomes at them, I would, quite
honestly, I wouldn't engage inthe conversation.
It is a black hole for you.
It is not a place whereanything productive or any
conversation of any value isreally going to take place,
simply because you aren't ableto read the room and, quite

(34:17):
honestly, unless somebody isreally willing to engage in that
conversation and have thatconversation with you so that
you can better understand oneanother, you're not going to get
anywhere.
You're going to continue to tryto throw facts at one another
or throw shade at one another toprove your point, and the

(34:37):
reality is that facts don'tchange people's minds they don't
.
We can throw all the facts inthe world that we want about the
research done on positivereinforcement, training and all
the things that we know in theliterature about aversive
methods and things that don'twork and the fallout of all of
those things, and it's nevergonna change somebody's mind or
position.

(34:58):
The only thing that does is whenyou invest in somebody that's
willing to have a conversationso that you can understand where
they're coming from better,because once we understand them
and we understand the historybehind it, we have an
opportunity.
Then we've opened the door alittle bit for them to try
something that we're suggesting.
But in social media thatopportunity is void and nil.

(35:20):
It's not an opportunity that'savailable.
So when you find yourselftriggered by something said, I
would honestly not engage.
Take a moment, give yourselfsome grace, and the question I
would ask myself honestly inthat moment is I wonder what's
happening for them and I wonderwhat's happening in their
history that makes them align soheavily with this belief.

Speaker 1 (35:42):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (35:43):
And leave it at that.

Speaker 1 (35:44):
Yes, exactly, I think I should package everything you
just said there because it'ssuch gold advice.
It's something that I wish Iknew when I first started off
five, 10 years ago.
I'm getting into these somesocial media conflicts and
reacting.
So that's sort of the keyphrase, sort of like we talk
about dogs that are reactive.

(36:04):
If you're reactive, you'regoing to often just get reacted
back.
Right, you're going to get aresponse from whatever you're
reacting to.
So the travesty for me, too, isthat in my position I get a lot
of people that will reach out tome or folks that are trying to
get on speaking engagements,just know, just put their
information out there.

(36:25):
But the travesty for me is thatthere's some folks out there
that are afraid to do any ofthat because of the potential
criticisms that they might faceor the critical comments or any
kind of negativity that canhappen on social media, and
that's just so sad becausethere's so much talent and
knowledge and information thatis not getting out there because
it's getting stifled.

(36:45):
And so if you're listening inright now and you're one of
those folks that are you want toput a message out there, I
highly encourage you, just do it.
Do it and then take Carm'swonderful advice and pair it
with that and that's how you canoften survive that social media
environment while getting themessage you want to put out
there into the mainstream.
So that was just a top of mindthought for me, but it really

(37:07):
was, I think, important to saythat because I don't want people
, good talent, not getting outthere because we're just doing
damage to the dogs and to thepeople we're trying to help,
because that information is notgetting out there.
So do what you got to do and putit out.
There is my message there.
Let's continue on.

(37:30):
What other tools or what elseis top of mind for you in this
conversation?

Speaker 2 (37:33):
where you would love to also add into this.
Yeah, I think what's really topof my mind that I want to kind
of circle back to is because Ido conflict resolution and
because this is like reallyfront and center in how I
approach any conversation, andparticularly all of my training
conversations.
It doesn't mean that it's goingto end well, okay.
So the idea that, likeresolution is in that you know

(37:56):
phrase doesn't mean resolutionis going to always happen, and
it doesn't mean that it's goingto feel good.
Conflict doesn't feel good.
I have the same visceralresponse that everybody else has
when something gets really hardor somebody comes at me, or all
the time you can be in themiddle of a conversation, even
with you know clients thatyou've been working with, or

(38:18):
even those that you're justmeeting for the first time, and
you're kind of blindsided andsurprised by how aggressively
somebody might come at you withsomething, that difference of
opinions.
For me, though, what I have toremember is that when somebody
else is giving me a veryemotional, visceral response,
that's gold.
That's absolutely the gold I'mlooking for, because that's the

(38:41):
gold that I need to explore.
That's the gold I need to kindof dip.
That's the gold that I need toexplore.
That's the gold I need to kindof dip my toe into in order to
be able to really understand andhelp them.
But so these conversations arenot always going to go well.
They're not.
You know, we're not going tolike do this huge process and
really understand people, andwe're limited in time.
We're limited in the time thatwe have in our consults and our

(39:03):
time to work with them, and sowe have to really kind of,
outside of these moments, workon those separate pieces and get
better at them and pull them inwhere they're needed, when we
need them.
And then sometimes we have tojust agree to disagree, and it's
okay to do that.
Every conversation is not goingto end well and you're going to

(39:24):
walk away going oh God, okay,that didn't end nearly as well.
I should have done this or thisor this or this would have gone
better if I had.
You know, we always think inretrospect of all the things we
should have done, and so I oftenwant people to create what I
call a wishing well, and thewishing well is after a
conversation if it didn't feelgood, it didn't feel great.

(39:48):
I want you to put in thatwishing well the things that you
wish you had done better, andthen you keep working at those
things, because those thingswill keep coming up and you keep
working at those things.
But the next piece would be Iwant to really kind of talk a
little bit deeper about whatinforms beliefs and where people
are coming from when they cometo us.

(40:10):
Because whether it's anaggression case, whether it's a
separation anxiety case, thereare things that people will come
into a session.
They come with core beliefs andthey may be very, very
different than ours.
So core beliefs are thosethings that really give us a
lens into how we view andperceive the world in front of

(40:31):
us, and for everybody that'sdifferent.
We are not born with corebeliefs.
We are not born with them.
These are things that we learnthrough life experiences and as
we move through the world.
It's the things in trauma, it'sthe things in childhood that
have informed the world.
It's the things in trauma, it'sthe things in childhood that
have informed the beliefs.
It's the things that we've beenmodeled, all of those things.
It's the communities that welive in, the places that we work

(40:52):
in, all of these things thatput us in a community that
support our beliefs.
Right, because we often willput ourselves in communities
where our beliefs are supported,because it's uncomfortable to
go outside that.
So when we're now in aconversation where I'm
presenting information they'reinterested, but I'm presenting
information or I'm seeingsomething that completely
counters and goes against theircore beliefs, I need to take a

(41:15):
step back and I need tounderstand it, and so I'm going
to spend some time really tryingto understand what their
history is, because everybodycomes to the table with a
history and if I'm just assumingthat I'm going to railroad
through and just brush asidewhat their core beliefs are or
what they're asking you know,when they're asking for help,

(41:38):
what might be stopping them fromactually moving forward with
that help, then I've missed ahuge piece of the puzzle, and so
I want to spend some timereally trying to understand
what's somebody's history withthis.
So, for example, we haveclients that are just like you
know all the time.
Like you said, they're going tosay things in that initial

(41:59):
consult that you have to havethat poker face, you're going to
suspend judgment, because it'slike, as an example, I had a
client come in and when I wasworking, reactivity and
aggression cases before I wasdoing separation anxiety and he
just had this real firm floatingin the aversive dominance world
and he had a pit bull which waslovely.

(42:20):
It was this lovely little pityloved this girl.
She was such a sweet girl.
And so we have a couple ofdynamics happening here.
We have, like this dog that'shaving these reactive moments
and showing some aggression.
We have an owner that is reallyleaning into aversive tools and
believes he needs to dominatehis dog because his dog needs to
know that he's boss.

(42:41):
And then we have the wife whois on the sidelines and doesn't
necessarily agree with him.
So we have two differingopinions occurring between
husband and wife and I'm findingmyself kind of in the middle of
a therapy session of I have touncover what's happening between
them, because unless we getboth people finding a common
goal, I'm not going to be ableto help move them forward.

(43:03):
So a lot of that comes intowhat's the history for him.
He has a whole history and awhole, you know, background in
why he believes so firmly inaversive tools.
Why does he believe so heavilythat he needs to dominate his
dog?
So we went there, we had thatconversation, we gave the dog
something to do.
The dog was doing fine in theroom and we had that
conversation which helped meunderstand and also helped him

(43:28):
understand a little bit betterthe concerns that his wife was
having and why she was afraidand why he wasn't afraid.
And that way we could come toone single common goal and
that's what we worked on for thenext two to three weeks and
when he started to see therelationship with his dog change
by not dominating him, then thedoor cracked open a little

(43:51):
wider to try something else andto try something else and to try
something else.
And he took the choke chain, hetook the prong.
Collar off of this dog, hestopped being aversive, he
stopped trying to dominate him.
Collar off of this dog, hestopped being aversive, he
stopped trying to dominate himand, mainly unbeknownst to him,
it's because he allowed himselfto express and had the

(44:12):
opportunity to be heard andunderstood in a way that nobody
had listened, instead of justtrying to tell him why that
wasn't going to work.

Speaker 1 (44:19):
Amazing, amazing transformation too, and what I
would sense is a short time, inmy experience too for a paradigm
shift like that to happen.
Would be wonderful to be a flyon the wall during a consult
with you just to see thenavigation of the conversation.
In terms of that, I'd love tokind of, before we wrap up, talk
about some of the resources toothat are available out there.
We know there's limitedresources for dog trainers and

(44:41):
consultants, so there's somebooks, like some of my favorites
, like the Human Half of DogTraining with Dr Risa Van Fleet.
Crucial Conversations NeverSplit the Difference.
Those are some of the commonones that are talking about
conversational skills, but onethat's sort of I wouldn't call
it new, but newer to the dogtraining world is nonviolent
communication.
Do you want to talk more about?

Speaker 2 (45:01):
that, or maybe even the topic of it.
Oh, you are just like lightingup my world.
Yes, absolutely, because whereall this leads to are in
conflict resolution andmediation and facilitation
skills is nonviolentcommunication, and this is where
it all kind of filters downinto.
So we have all of these otherthings at play that we're

(45:23):
considering right, that we'vetalked about, that we've
discussed, and how do we applyit into actual tools and skills
in the moment, and what it comesdown to is nonviolent
communication.
And what nonviolentcommunication is is it's broken
down into four steps, four verysimple steps.
Simple, although not so simple.
Simple because it takespractice to actually rehearse

(45:45):
them.
But the first step isobservation, and so observation
is when you're doing a consult,your first step is observation.
It's not judgment.
You're suspending judgment.
You're not putting any labelson anything.
You're not doing any of that.
It's facts only.
What are you seeing?
And if somebody is expressingan emotion, what is it that

(46:07):
you're seeing?
Just observations only.
That's the important first step.
The second step is going to befeelings, right?
So you observed this, and sothen what you have an
opportunity to do is mirror backthe feelings that they're
expressing.
To do is mirror back thefeelings that you're that
they're expressing.
It's like.
So when I said that you knowwhen, when we were talking about

(46:28):
this or you were describingthis behavior in your dog, I
noticed that your voice got alittle bit more intense.
You were talking aboutdominance.
There was, you know, things gota little harder for you.
Can you help me understandwhat's happening and what comes
up for you there?
Because what's happening is Iwant to explore and I want to
understand.
I want to make sure that whenI'm mirroring back, they

(46:50):
understand that I heard that,that I understood and I'm
actually listening and I'mhearing what their experience is
.
I'm not judging it, I'm nottrying to fix it, I'm just
trying to repeat back what werethe feelings that you were
experiencing as you weredescribing that situation?
Are you, are you totallyembarrassed?
Are they expressing completeembarrassment by what their dog

(47:11):
is?
You know what are their, theirgoals and expectations of this
dog?
That might be unrealistic, fine, but like what are you feeling?
Why do you feel like that's soimportant to you?
Why do you feel like this dogthat has a huge history in
aggression and a few bites needsto be a therapy dog?
What's happening there?
Right?
Why do you feel that?
But I need to understand andmirror back, like I've observed

(47:33):
this what are you feeling, right, when I see this, what comes up
for you or when I've, you know,when you said this and then
needs.
So when we're talking aboutfeelings, just like we did in
that feelings wheel, so nowwe're like tapping into, I've
noticed this.
Are you feeling this when I saythis?
And let them have anopportunity to kind of explain
and expand and say more about itthan needs.

(47:57):
So what would you need?
Ask them, give them theopportunity.
It's just like.
So maybe what you need is tofeel a little more secure and
safe when you go on a walk soyou don't get drugged through a
ditch.
I get that.
Okay, that makes sense to me.
And let them say what I'mlooking for in any conversation
is that moment where a clientsays to me yeah, that's it,
that's exactly it, because ifI've done my job correctly here,

(48:20):
then I've listened to them,I've observed it, I've been able
to mirror back what I'veobserved or what I've heard them
say, and ask them what feelings, if I haven't really identified
a feeling, what do you feelwhen I say that or when you're
saying that, and then identifywhen you're feeling that, what
do you need, what's the needthat needs to happen here, and
then what's the one actionablerequest given that, then would

(48:44):
you be willing to try this?
I can make a request, or theycan make a request of?
I need to just be able to walkmy dog and feel safe.
So it really comes down tononviolent communication.
I was at a conference and itwas the first time I'd seen the
nonviolent communication book atthe dog wise table, and I was.
I literally almost like jumped.

(49:04):
I mean, I was so excited and Italked to them.
I was like who put this bookout?
Who put this book here?
Who put this book on the table?
So the people at the dog wisetable were not so sure that was
a book that really belongedthere and I was like this book
absolutely belongs here becauseit's not about dog training.
That book is not about dogtraining.
But the book is about how toemploy these four steps

(49:28):
observation, feelings, needs andrequests into actionable things
in how we have any conversation.
And if you practice it, whatyou're going to find is how you
approach your consults and howyou approach a training session
are going to be different.
And what you will also find isyou are developing a stronger
connection and a stronger modeof communication with your

(49:51):
clients and you're going to havebetter buy-in from your clients
and you're going to have bettertraining outcomes.

Speaker 1 (49:57):
Wonderful, wonderful.
And if I had to guess, it wouldbe Erica.
Erica Austin, who works withDogWise, probably put it there.
She's amazing, loved her.

Speaker 2 (50:05):
I was just like I literally hugged her.
I'm like keep this book on thetables.

Speaker 1 (50:10):
She's doing great work for DogWise as well as the
rest of the dog trainingcommunity, so shout out to Erica
.

Speaker 2 (50:16):
Incredible yes.

Speaker 1 (50:17):
And you're going to be speaking at speaking of
conferences.
You're going to be speaking atthe Aggression and Dogs
Conference.
I'm really excited for that one.
Real quick, what are youfocusing there?
What's your focus going to beon for the topic?

Speaker 2 (50:32):
Yeah, I'm super excited to have the opportunity
to actually present thismaterial because I feel like
there's a lot of people reallykind of skimming the surface of
this and they've got some skills, They've got some things
happening.
They just don't have the biggerpicture and understand how to
pull it all together.
So what I'm going to be talkingabout at the conference is we're
going to dive into each ofthese things.
We're going to dive into humanbody language.

(50:53):
We're going to dive into, youknow, core beliefs.
We're going to dive intoemotional intelligence, the
feelings, will and actually howto apply these tools in what you
do in your work, regardless ofwhether it's shelter work or
whether it's.
You know you're facing timelimitations, you're doing
aggression, you're doingseparation, anxiety or you're
just teaching classes and you'remeeting resistance and not

(51:14):
being able to convert thosepeople that are reaching out to
you into training packages, andwhy might that be happening?
So I'm going to be diving intoall of those things and we're
going to go do a deeper diveinto nonviolent communication
and how to actually use thosetools and those skills to
improve the way that you'rehaving conversations and how to

(51:37):
change the course when thingsfeel ugly, when they don't feel
good and suddenly you findyourself in a situation you
hadn't planned on being in.

Speaker 1 (51:49):
I'm really looking forward to that.
And what else do you havecoming up this year?
Where else can people find you?

Speaker 2 (51:54):
So where they can find me.
I live in Oregon, I'm inSpringfield and I'm kind of
living a quiet little life here.
I run North Star TrainingSolutions in Oregon and I only
work separation anxiety.
It's the thing I primarilyfocus on.
I'm a CSAT.
I'm a certified separationanxiety trainer, also on staff
with Milena DiMartini, so I'mdoing cases and work with her as

(52:18):
well.
I just give local talks quitehonestly on both.
I've given a few talks to theCSAC community on difficult
conversations mainly directedtowards that community and
covered this and then also justdone some separation anxiety
talks.
But I am always open and happyto talk to anybody if they don't

(52:39):
want to wait till theconference and they need to
reach out to me and they're justlike okay, I heard your podcast
, this is really great.
These are tools that I feellike I need.
They can reach me at my email.
They could always email me atkarm at northstartraininginfo,
and I am always happy to consultand help people kind of
navigate the slippery slope whenthings go south.

Speaker 1 (53:02):
Wonderful Karm.
Thank you so much for thiswonderful conversation and I'm
really looking forward to seeingyou at the conference.

Speaker 2 (53:09):
Thank you, Mike.
This was so fun.
I really appreciate theopportunity to have this
conversation.
I could talk about this all daylong, so clearly as you can
tell.
So I really appreciate theplatform.

Speaker 1 (53:21):
Great, Thank you.
It was absolutely wonderfulchatting with Carm and I picked
up some really great insightsthat I think I'll be using in my
conversations, both in my dogbehavior consulting practice and
, I think, life in general.
You know this might soundcliche, but I know the world
will be a better place ifconflict resolution became part

(53:41):
of our mainstream culture.
And don't forget to head onover to Agg aggressivedogcom for
more information about helpingdogs with aggression, From the
Aggression in Dogs Master Courseto webinars from world-renowned
experts and even an annualconference.
We have options for both petpros and pet owners to learn
more about aggression in dogs.

(54:02):
We also have the Help for Dogswith Aggression bonus episodes
that you can subscribe to.
These are solo shows where Iwalk you through how to work
with a variety of types ofaggression, such as resource
guarding, dog-to-dog aggression,territorial aggression,
fear-based aggression and much,much more.
You can find a link tosubscribe in the show notes or
by hitting the subscribe buttonif you're listening in on Apple

(54:24):
Podcasts.
Thanks for listening in and, asalways, stay well, my friends.