Enhancing Emotional Support for Humans and Animals with Valerie Bogie

What are the emotional challenges faced by both professionals and pet owners? This episode promises to shed light on this intriguing question as we sit down with Valerie Bogie who has a unique breadth of experience in both animal care and veterinary social work. With over two decades of experience, Valerie shares her incredible journey from feeling overwhelmed and bullied in the workplace to finding her calling in veterinary social work, where empathy, active listening, and resiliency are key.

Valerie and I explore the unique applications that address human needs wherever a human-animal bond exists. We discuss the various levels of social work, from individual therapy to broader policy changes, and dive into key components like intentional well-being, grief and bereavement, and animal-assisted interventions. Valerie also highlights the link between human and animal violence, offering a comprehensive look at how this growing field is making a significant impact within the professional community. Don't miss this enriching conversation that promises to enhance both your professional practice and personal well-being!

ABOUT VALERIE:

Valerie is a passionate advocate for enhancing emotional support in the animal world. With a career spanning over two decades, she has garnered extensive experience across diverse animal care settings, including a veterinary hospital, an animal shelter, a veterinary behavior practice, training dogs, and caring for exotic animals in various zoos and aquariums across the country.  

Valerie’s journey took a transformative turn when she discovered Veterinary Social Work—a field dedicated to addressing the emotional well-being of humans wherever there is a human-animal bond.  Realizing the profound impact this support can have, Valerie became dedicated to spreading awareness and providing resources about this growing and expansive field. 

Valerie is currently working on her Master of Science in Social Work (MSSW) degree with a Veterinary Social Work (VSW) certificate at the University of Tennessee- Knoxville, and will graduate in May of 2025.  Valerie works for Insight Animal Behavior Services and GRAZE (Growing Resiliency for Aquarium and Zoo Employees) focusing on human support services.  She loves sharing Emotional CPR and building customized workshops and presentations on various topics through her own business, Valerie Bogie, LLC.

Links mentioned in episode:

Linktree: linktr.ee/valeriebogievsw

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made her realize the need formore emotional understanding and
support for the human side ofthe human-animal bond.
Since 2000, she has worked in avariety of settings, which
include the vet hospital, animalshelter, veterinary behavior

(00:45):
practice, dog training andcaring for exotic animals at
several zoos and aquariumsacross the country.
Once she learned aboutveterinary social work, she
realized it was what had beenmissing from her animal care
experiences.
Valerie is currently working onher Master's of Science in
Social Work degree with aveterinary social Work specialty
at University of Tennessee,knoxville.

(01:07):
Valerie works for Insight,animal Behavior Services and
GRAZE, which is GrowingResiliency for Aquarium and Zoo
Employees, focusing on humansupport services.
She leads a variety ofworkshops, including Emotional
CPR, which focuses on connectingand active listening to support
someone going through adifficult time and if you are

(01:27):
enjoying the bitey end of thedog, you can support the podcast
by going to aggressivedogcom,where there's a variety of
resources to learn more abouthelping dogs with aggression
issues, including the upcomingAggression and Dogs Conference
happening from October 11th to13th 2024 in Scottsdale, arizona
, with both in-person and onlineoptions.
You can learn more about theAggression and Dogs Master

(01:48):
Course, which is the mostcomprehensive course available
anywhere in the world forlearning how to work with and
help dogs with aggression issues.
I also have a wide variety ofwebinars, upcoming courses,
videos and articles, all fromthe foremost experts in training
and behavior.
We are your one-stop shop forall things related to aggression
in dogs.

(02:12):
Hey guys, welcome back to theBitey End of the Dog.
This is a very special episodebecause we are talking about the
human side of the work we doand I'm very excited to be
diving into this topic becauseit's not talked about enough in
our industry and I have anexpert on that topic here.
Valerie Bogey is here joiningus and we're going to take a
deep dive into all things humanand the behavior work we do.

(02:34):
So welcome to the show, valerie.

Speaker 2 (02:36):
Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1 (02:37):
So I want to start first.
You know kind of getting alittle bit more about your
background.
What got you into this?
Because you've done a lot ofwork with animals and now you're
also helping the humans.

Speaker 2 (02:50):
So what kind of you know motivates you to get into
that role?
Yeah, so I have played a rolein many animal arenas so I have,
you know, currently behaviorconsultant for Insight Animal
Behavior Services.
I have, you know, been azookeeper for over 16 years.
I've worked in animal shelters,I worked in an animal hospital,
so I'm currently pet sittingright now.

(03:11):
So a lot of different spaces andI got burned out.
I loved the animals, I lovedtraining the animals, I loved so
much about working in the zooand aquarium field, but I just
felt overwhelmed.

(03:31):
I felt I was in a situationwhere I was being bullied and
wasn't really being heard orseen by management and at some
point you have to make thatdecision, and I felt like I had
a really great run of my careeraround being in multiple
facilities and working withamazing animals and working all

(03:55):
the weekends, working early,working late, missing holidays
with your family.
That all takes a toll on you aswell, and so, if there is
additional challenges, justpersonnel wise, that just makes
it almost unbearable some days.
So, yeah, I made a decision toleave that industry in 2021 and

(04:16):
then started working withInsight and kind of started
poking around looking for mynext big thing.
I was thinking about oh, do Iwant to be a life coach?
Do I want to be a counselor?
Do I want to do something withhumans?
Because behavior is behavior.
You know, we're mammals andthere's just so many
similarities and I just find itfascinating so many of the

(04:36):
parallels that are there.
Just our animals can't talk tous, and so I wanted to kind of
use some of those skills in anew way and then came across the
Veterinary Human SupportCertificate through University
of Tennessee, knoxville.
So that is under the umbrella ofthe Veterinary Social Work
Program.
But this certificate wasspecifically designed for people

(04:58):
in the animal world who want topeople better.
So that program really hits youknow kind of the four different
areas of veterinary social workand really was the introduction
to veterinary social work forme and I was hooked.
So I mean I completed thatcertificate in a year.

(05:18):
I think you can have up to likefour or five to finish it and I
was like you know, just youknow, off to the races with
everything and then decided topursue the master's because I
just realized learning aboutveterinary social work, some of
the terms and just everythingthat I was learning, I just had
that aha moment, like if I wouldhave had this type of support

(05:41):
in my career maybe I'd still bethere, but I didn't.
And now I'm trying to be thatperson for others so that you
know they can make thosedecisions for themselves but
also learn how to take care ofthemselves a little bit better.

Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yeah, it's interesting because a lot of us
that get into working withanimals usually leave a field
where we're sick of the peopleand it's kind of the opposite.
Here you went from I'm working,because when you were in marine
mammals and zoos, yes, you'reworking with people, but at a
much lesser degree than if we'redoing behavior consulting,
going to people's homes, right,a lot of days are, yes, you're

(06:16):
working with your co-workers,but you're working with the
animals, and then you go fromthat environment to okay, now I
just want to work with thepeople a lot more, which is an
interesting thing.
So what's motivated you in thatregard?
Is it like, you know, I want tofix people because I'm tired of
them, or it's like I want abetter understanding of how to
navigate conversation, like whatkind of drove you to that?

Speaker 2 (06:36):
Yeah, I think the big takeaway and actually that's
one of my pet peeves is whenpeople say oh, I work with
animals because I don't likepeople, because that immediately
puts others on the defensive,because you're always caring for
animals on a team, I'm notgoing to go to work seven days a
week to take care of everysingle animal.
That's not realistic.
You have to be part of a team,you have to communicate, and so

(06:56):
I think that is part of thedetriment, where people think
they're entering into thisanimal world and it's just you
and the animals and that's neverthe case, right, like you said,
like for a consultant that'sgoing into people's homes or
meeting you know, multiplemeetings on training sessions,
on Zoom.
Yes, you have co workers andsupervisors, just like any other
job when you're working at azoo, and then you have to do

(07:18):
public presentations and youhave to do you know, like you
have all these other hats thatyou have to wear.
So I think it really was justhaving that lived experience and
recognizing it didn't matterwhat state I was living in, what
facility I was working at, whatmy job title was, that there
was still these underlyingthemes that I was noticing and

(07:40):
no one was really talking aboutit.

Speaker 1 (07:43):
Interesting.
It's kind of like how I startedwith aggression, because you
saw a need to fill a space wherethere wasn't a lot of
information.
So well, thank you for fillingthat space now because, let's
face it, there's not a lot oftalk about this, especially in
the dog training community, andso let's kind of just define the
role of veterinary socialworker, because I think when
people hear the term socialworker, it's almost like when

(08:05):
people hear the term like dogtrainer, it could be a lot of
different things.
There's lots of layers, lots ofdifferent roles.
So talk us through that foranybody that's maybe not
familiar with the termveterinary social worker or even
social worker.

Speaker 2 (08:16):
Yeah, so quiz question what do you think a
social worker does?

Speaker 1 (08:21):
Yeah.
So for me, when I hear the termsocial worker, you're thinking
somebody that's just beenreported to the authorities,
right, and you're like, okay,now you got this role and maybe
sometimes you're helping peoplethat you know need therapy.
But there's not a lot ofdefinitive answers for me when I
hear that term.
You know now I know becauseI've met you, but initially I

(08:42):
had no idea.
So you know, I'm glad I'mgetting educated on exactly all
these different roles, so I'dlove to hear more about.

Speaker 2 (08:48):
Yeah, so, and that is a perfect example.
I feel like your answer is onpar with pretty much most of the
people that I've talked to, sokind of defining social work
first, and I can even back up towhy I chose social work over
some of the other mental healthprofessional titles.
I chose social work becausereally it is a profession that

(09:11):
is looking to help individuals,families, but then also
communities and reallyidentifying problems in systems
and working towards policychange, and there's also a code
of ethics.
So when you become a socialworker you are bound by a code
of ethics, Like that's huge,right, and so you kind of have a

(09:34):
cheat sheet of oh, this is achallenging situation.
I can go back to something, andyou just know that everyone's
playing by the same rules andhas had the same education.
So to me, social work just hasa broader lens and they actually
call that, you know, micro iswhere you're doing more of the
one-on-one clinical therapy,like a therapist counselor.

(09:57):
And then there's the mezzo,which might be more of like the
group work or community work,and then there's also the macro
and that's really the peoplethat are working towards policy
change and you know campaigningand things like that.
So there's so many differentlayers to it.
So I liked that flexibilitywhere I didn't have to be put in
a box of up.
You can only do one on onecounseling.

(10:19):
No, I can do so much more withthat.
So that's why I really likedsocial work in general.
And then veterinary social workis focusing on the human needs.
Anywhere that there is a humananimal bond, so pretty much
anyone with an animal in theirlife, anyone listening to this
podcast right now, could benefitfrom veterinary social work.

(10:40):
So, as the name implies, it wasoriginally designed to focus on
the needs of veterinarians inclinics and then also the
clients in clinics.
Right, If you're getting hardnews about your animal or you're
saying goodbye to your animal,it's nice to have a liaison or
someone that is trained a littlebit more in depth about the

(11:01):
emotional aspect of some ofthose decisions that you're
making.
But then also being there forthe staff who have to do those
hard things every single day.
And veterinary social work haskind of four different quadrants
.
We call them.
It was actually started in 2002at University of Tennessee,
Knoxville, by Dr ElizabethStrand.

(11:23):
So those four main componentsone of them is intentional
well-being.
That was actually renamed, soit used to be called compassion
fatigue and conflict management,which is something I know we
want to dive into today.
But as you've said before, wordsmatter, and so this was an
intentional change to call itintentional well-being, right?

(11:44):
Because then that kind ofshifts that focus into being
more proactive than justconstantly reactive, right?
So-?

Speaker 1 (11:52):
I love that.
I love that.
Yeah, so that's one.
Okay, so that's the first one.

Speaker 2 (11:56):
Second one, grief and bereavement.
And that one I think is sointeresting because obviously,
culturally we all process griefjust on the human side of the.
You know human grief if youlose a person in your life
differently, and then what doesthat look like?
When it's a pet, right, there'sstill a lot of things going on

(12:17):
there.
And then what if it's youranimal at the zoo?
You don't own that animal, it'snot your pet, but it's not your
coworker, it's not your friend,right?
So there's a lot of gray areas.
So one of the terms I learnedwhen kind of taking that deeper
dive is disenfranchised grief,and that was another aha moment
for me.
So disenfranchised grief isgrief that is not really

(12:41):
acknowledged by the generalpopulation or public.
So we could put pet death inthere, right, because some
people are like oh, it's just apet, like, are you kidding?
Like I spend more time with thatpet than most of the humans in
my life, right, but it's thesame thing with the animals at
the zoo.
Or you know what if we lose asmaller animal that isn't
publicized on social media forthat facility?

(13:03):
And then how does that make youfeel?
And so there's just so manylayers because there's different
types of grief.
I could talk about that foranother hour.
The third one is animal-assistedinterventions.
I think that's a pretty commonone when people think veterinary
social work, oh, you are atherapist and you have a dog
that people can pet whilethey're coming to therapy, right
, which is great.

(13:24):
And not just dogs, right.
There's equine therapy, wherepeople can go to learn about
horses, take care of horses aspart of their therapy.
And then that fourth one is thelink between human and animal
violence, and so that one'sreally looking at the statistics
of if there is animal abuse, alot of times there's human abuse

(13:45):
in that household and viceversa.
So, really, looking atcommunity level initiatives of
how are we tracking this?
How are these entitiescommunicating so we can track
this better and help everyone inthe household?
Domestic violence shelters.
Some are now offering that youcould bring your pet with you,
and that wasn't always the case.
Or there's networks wheresomeone can secretly foster your

(14:08):
animal for you so you can getto safety.
And just there's just four, buteach one is got a lot of depth
to it, which also, I think, isvery attractive, when you're
talking about veterinary socialwork, to just know a little bit
more about those quadrants.

Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yeah, that's really helpful to understand the
different areas that you mightgo into.
And the question I was going toask you.
It's so new to the field.
It seems like there's not a lotof veterinary social workers,
I'm assuming out there.
Is there a number that you'reaware of?
In my search, actually, when Iwas looking for guests on this
topic I've been searching foryears only a few names come up

(14:45):
to me.
So it's what is your feedbackon that?

Speaker 2 (14:48):
Yeah.
So it is still kind of nicheand growing and it's amazing,
you know, for something that wasstarted in 2002.
You know, I recently, earlierin the year, went to the WVC
conference in Vegas and wastalking to people about
veterinary social work.
People didn't understand whatit was or had never heard of it

(15:11):
before.
So I'm like, oh wow, that's agood indication.
We still have a lot of work todo right.
But yeah, as far as numbers, Idon't know off the top of my
head, because there are moreprograms now, so it's not just
University of Tennessee anymore,there are other colleges that
have veterinary social work asan option, which is amazing.
And also, too, for someone thatis already a social worker and

(15:32):
then finds veterinary socialwork and it's like, wow, this is
it, I want to do this.
There's actually now post-gradcertificates.
You can add that additionaleducation on, even if you're
already completed your schoolfor social work.
But yeah, there's not a lot ofthem.
And that's also trying tospread the word, because you

(15:53):
might be listening to this andthink, oh wow, that veterinary
human support certificate soundspretty interesting.
You can take the fullcertificate.
You can get the modulesindividually.
So you know, just kind oftaking that little steps towards
educating people, gettingpeople the awareness of what it
is, because then it's just goingto spread Right and we're going

(16:14):
to get more people.
But yeah, it can be difficult,you know, doing a search, you
know there's some states thathave a few and things like that.
So we're really working,working on getting more.
But yeah, it's definitely anarea of need if anyone wants to
join me getting more.

Speaker 1 (16:28):
But, yeah, it's definitely an area of need.
If anyone wants to join me,yeah, I'm sure the listeners,
hearing everything you're saying, is probably like, yeah, we do
need to see all these spacesfilled, because everything
you're talking about on thosefour quadrants, so to speak,
there's absolutely a demand forall of those services and all
those topics.
It's just so badly needed.
So, thank you for the workyou're doing.
Okay, let's dive into thechallenges.

(16:48):
Now.
Let's talk about, you know,some of the challenges that
happen in our work.
You know, let's kind of focus,maybe for a moment on what
trainers and consultants aregoing into, these behavior cases
and you've had experience withthat too in the work you've done
.
So let's think aggression cases, some of the more difficult,
challenging behavior cases.
What are some common things andyou can even dive into all

(17:10):
those four quadrants if you wantbut what are some of the most
common challenges you're seeingand that you hear about and that
people are coming to you for?

Speaker 2 (17:18):
I think one of the hardest things is that the
client is dealing with triggerstacking probably just like
their dog is dealing withtrigger stacking probably just
like their dog is.
So the capacity that they haveto absorb information and then
retain and then do it on theirown is very small.

(17:38):
So something that we use atInsight is actually the Zerat
burden interview, so it's acaregiver burden scoring.
So originally it was created tomeasure the caregiver burden of
humans taking care of otherhumans.
Right, because we already knowthat that is really tough If
you're the primary caretaker forsomeone, whether they have a

(18:00):
disability or they have achronic illness, whatever that
looks like.
That is hard, that is reallyhard.
So they have scientificallybeen able to alter that change
the word to pet took out acouple questions that didn't
make as much sense for the petrealm of things, and then we put

(18:21):
that in our new patientbehavior questionnaire.
So every single client, beforeI meet them, I'm reading over
their questionnaire before wehave our hour-long intake
assessment and you can almostquantify their stress level
based on that number.
So it's huge because it justgives you at least some frame of

(18:45):
reference, right, as far as arethey thinking about you know.
Then we ask a couple offollow-up questions at the end,
like have you consideredrehoming?
Have you considered euthanasia?
Right.
And so we at least kind of knowwhere they're at, because we
want to meet them there.
That's exactly the point, right.
So we're not saying, oh, you'rejust a number and you know,
obviously there's so much morethat goes into it but just

(19:06):
having some data point to say,ok, here's where we're starting.
When you are walking in thedoor and we are having our first
interactions, where are you?
Because the goal, similar withworking with the dog, we want to
decrease those stress levels,right?
So we've actually startedsending that caregiver burden
scoring in some follow-up emailsas well.

(19:28):
So like the three-month, thesix-month mark.
So we're going to have somereally cool data, hopefully to
say like, okay, after this manymonths of treatment, or looking
into the correlations betweenthe number, so the caregiver
burden score versus thediagnosis for the dog, right,
because we know like, you said,aggression is tough, separation

(19:50):
anxiety is just as tough,because you know, a lot of times
you can't leave your house soyou're isolated.
If you have aggressive dog,you're isolated, you're not
meeting other people, you can'ttalk to someone that you know.
We're not going to dog parks,we're not stopping and talking
to people on walks like that isnot part of just the daily life.
Or maybe I can't have peopleover to my house right.
So there's a lot of differentways.

(20:11):
But you know, just having kindof that starting block because
the scoring goes up into the 70s, but pretty much anything over
17 is considered a significantburden.
So if I'm meeting with someoneand they're in like the 50s,
that's pretty high.
So I already know that I amgoing to adjust how much

(20:32):
homework I'm giving them, I'mgoing to slow things down, I'm
going to make sure I'm givingthem space to talk and share
things versus someone who is,yeah, maybe at a 20.
You know, obviously there'sother parts that go into it,
like what's their trainingbackground, like how much work
have they done already andthings like that.
But just being mindful of howstressed out they are, because,

(20:52):
just like we can't train a dogthat is over threshold a new
trick.
At that moment, we can't traina human that is over threshold
something new either.
So I think that is somethingthat can benefit anyone that is
working with pet owners to startto think about things in that
lens.

Speaker 1 (21:11):
Is that something that somebody needs training on
how to use properly, or is itsomething that somebody can
learn?
You get the form and they seethe questions and then the score
will give them at least abaseline of where to go.
Now, obviously the social workpart would require the training,
or, you know, if we start toget into the human therapy part
of things.
But as far as a baseline ofseeing where our clients is,

(21:32):
that something a trainer can usejust without any training
necessarily formal training, Ishould say.

Speaker 2 (21:38):
Yeah, yeah, it's available and I can share the
scientific studies, like in theshow notes.
We just have it as like a PDFand yeah, it's basically like a
zero through four.
So there's a.
You know, you can choose.
Never, sometimes, always, youknow, whatever the ratings are
for that.
So that, I think, is somethingthat anyone can use.
The nice thing about it as wellis, if the client doesn't have a

(22:03):
safe space to share some ofthis information, sometimes
reading those questions isreally helpful for them, because
, you know, sometimes we justminimize things like, oh, it's
not that bad, it's not that bad,and then you start reading some
of these questions.
Like you know, are you afraid ofwhat's to come?
Or you know just some of thesequestions that they're filling
out before you know they meetwith us.

(22:25):
I think that can also be areally helpful exercise for the
clients just to kind of be inthat headspace of like, oh wow,
this is worse than I was reallyperceiving, or I have.
You know, I haven't been reallyfully grasping, you know the
depth of this, this issue, orhow it really is affecting me.
So I think it can be helpfulfor both ends and, yeah, you
don't need any training to beable to utilize that scoring,

(22:48):
because, I mean, in a perfectworld everyone would have that.
So then you'd be able to just,you're collecting data on the
pet, but you're collecting dataon the human as well, and how
helpful is that Right?

Speaker 1 (22:59):
Yeah, that's a spectacular tool because it's
something I, you know, tell mystudents all the time.
You really need to understandthe human side.
And how do we get thatinformation?
Typically, we're doing it inperson.
We're reading the person'sfacial expressions, their body
language, we're hearing theirstory, and I love that there's
this tool that can get some ofthat information ahead of time.
Because, let's face it, we doit for the dogs all the time.

(23:20):
You know where does your dogsleep, you know all those
questions we would typicallyhave on our intake forms.
So either we do it in person orwe send it out ahead of time.
We don't do that for the humansand if we do, it's very minimal
.
You know it's so minimal.
So, yeah, and I would agree, Ithink the burden of the
caregiver or these pet guardiansthat are in these challenging
cases is probably the mostsignificant issue.

(23:42):
I see as well, and I wouldargue, that separation anxiety
cases often have more of aburden because of the
limitations, the extremelimitations on not leaving the
dog alone versus, you know,aggression case, if it's like a
stranger danger case you justhave to worry about when
strangers come over, versus sucha significant impact on their
lifestyle.
Okay, so we talked about burden.
What other, some other commonchallenges you would say are top

(24:05):
of the list for these behaviorcases from the client side?

Speaker 2 (24:09):
From the client side.
I think they're probablydealing with, you know, the
burnout and the compassionfatigue as well, right Like so
the caregiver burden is huge.
But then also, I feel like whenpeople get to us, you know as a
veterinary behaviorist practice, get to us, you know, as a

(24:31):
veterinary behaviorist practice,they have tried so much, you
know, and we could talk aboutthis again forever.
But just the gray areas of thedog training industry, right?
So someone has said that theyare a behaviorist and or they do
a board and train, or they doyou know.
So they're doing all thesethings, they're spending all
this money and time and energyspending and just hoping that
it's going to work, but just notalways having the guidance or

(24:55):
education to understand why someof those might not be as
fruitful as others.
So I think a lot of times too,they are just tired.
I'm sure you've seen it inplenty of your cases where
they're just like you're my lasthope.
You've seen it in plenty ofyour cases where they're just
like you're my last hope, thisis it If you can't fix this, but
then what kind of pressure doesthat put on your dog trainer
when you tell them?

(25:15):
Or your veterinary healthprofessional.
You're my last hope, gosh, likethen.
Now we are transferring thatburden over to the professional
that you're seeking help for,and I think that also you know
there's burden transfer scoringsurveys that are for
veterinarians.
I haven't seen one yet for dogtrainers, but I imagine that

(25:36):
could probably be tweaked, butthere's surveys for that too, so
you could kind of collect dataon yourself to say, okay, well,
how, how much is all of thisthat I am intaking on a constant
, daily basis really affectingme?

Speaker 1 (25:50):
Yeah it's.
You know clients are going tobe exasperated and sometimes
embarrassed too about theirdog's behavior.
You know why.
Or they're blaming themselves.
You know they're thinking, oh,this is my fault, or I'm not
doing this or I'm not being.
You know, quote alpha enough.
And they have all these, allthis different noise coming in
from different angles.
Enough, and they have all thesedifferent noise coming in from
different angles.
So and I definitely want tojump into the trainer side but

(26:11):
as trainers and consultants,what are some things we can do
to help clients that are feelingthis incredible burden, this
exasperation, this embarrassment, all these emotions that can
come into these cases?
What can we do as trainers ifwe're not necessarily social
workers?
But let's talk through some ofthe tools that you use.

Speaker 2 (26:29):
So I am an educator for emotional CPR and so that
was actually part of theveterinary human support
certificates.
And the whole basis ofemotional CPR is training peers
so just regular human, not apractitioner or an expert or
clinician how to help otherpeople better.
And so it really is a course inactive listening, because if

(26:52):
active listening was not modeledfor you when you grew up, you
do not have that skill, butluckily you can build that skill
right.
So it's something you candefinitely work on.
If you are aware of that gap.
When someone is hiring you andpaying you for your expertise
and help, it makes it very easyto kind of come in and like

(27:12):
steamroll someone, right,because you're like oh, I have
your bullet points, you want toget through, you have all these
concepts, you have thesetechniques, you have all this
information that you basicallykind of want to like word vomit
at them because you want to makesure that that client is seeing
the value in you as aprofessional.
So sometimes I think we confusethat quantity over quality.

(27:35):
So I think some of the bestways that we can support clients
is to listen and actually bequiet, and that's something
anyone can do and, like you said, it's reading the body language
of that person, it's askingthem questions and giving them
that invitation to share.
And something that is reallyhard to get over at first when

(27:57):
you're working on activelistening is the silence.
It's uncomfortable for a lot ofpeople where they just start
talking just to fill space,where it gets to be a little bit
uncomfortable because you'relike, oh, no one's saying
anything.
A lot of times that space isgiving our brains time to
process and then that personmight keep going with that story

(28:19):
and give you more details thatyou might have not known either
about them and their capacity todo, what steps you're giving
them or something helpful tolearn about that pet.
So there's a lot of benefits tothat active listening and also,
too, that's just one of thebest ways to build rapport with
someone too right?
Because a lot of times in humanconversation how was your day?

(28:42):
Oh, it was good, how was yourswe just kind of have this even
exchange and we're kind of justdoing a little back and forth
and so it's really taking thetime to say I am here for you,
yes, I'm here to help you withyour dog, but I'm, I'm here for
you because the success of thatdog and whatever training plan
you create is solely on thatowner, right?
Because they're the one day in,day out have to do all of the

(29:05):
things.
So giving them the space toshare everything that they want
to share and kind of process allof that, you can kind of start
to see them relax, start to seethem be a little bit more calm
Now you've gotten some trust andthey're hopefully in a better
headspace now that they feelheard by you, to actually be
able to learn some of the thingsyou're trying to train them.

(29:28):
And then I think the other sideof that too is again just being
very aware of the client infront of you.
I think it's really easy to say, oh okay, this is resource
guarding.
So here's my top five tips forresource guarding.
And we just send things over,that client might only be able
to do two.

(29:48):
So if you send them five andthey only do two, you know, in
the two weeks between yoursessions that's not a really
great percentage of success rate, right?
And then how is that clientgoing to feel about themselves?
They're going to feel like theyfailed you, they failed their
dog.
Instead of let's pare thingsdown Like I'm very much in like
the less is more.

(30:09):
Camp, where we don't have togive all of the information in
our head away in like any onesession, right.
And so let's give you two goalsand then guess what?
If they do those two, that is100% success rate.
Now we have a basis to say, ohokay, that went really well.
Are you ready for you?
Want an extra one?
Right, and you are workingalongside them versus this.

(30:32):
Like I am the expert, I amgiving you these tools.
Like you must do all of this,right, I think.
Just really making itmanageable for that human and
then also understanding we allhave different learning styles,
right, and thinking about howare you giving your information?
How many pages is your report?
Do you have a million thingsthat they click off of and then
they get lost down a rabbit holeand can't get back to the

(30:53):
report?
Like, thinking about all ofthose things with that client in
mind, I think is really goingto help you, as a animal
professional, really connectbetter with your clients.

Speaker 1 (31:07):
Yeah, all really important tools to use.
And we talk about empathy allthe time on the show right and
listening and the activelistening you were just talking
about.
Can we role play a little bithere?
Because I want to give thelisteners example, because I
think this is such a commonthing, like from a client, and I
also want to part the need toreally empathize with a client

(31:28):
that might be saying like I'llsay some things and that might
make people laugh, but it'sactually what we might hear all
the time and as trainers andconsultants we have to also be
careful not to, you know, make acertain facial expression or
grimace when that happens.
So we also have to empathizewith that.
So let's see what your responsewould be.
So you're right now in the roleof active listening.

(31:49):
I'm like Valerie, so I've gotthis dog and Uncle Bob came over
and the dog bit Uncle Bob and Idon't think it was that bad,
although Uncle Bob had to go tothe hospital.
So I think it's just because Iwasn't being alpha enough.
Do you think I need to be moredominant?
Or maybe it's because it's notjust like my last dog.
My German Shepherd was kind oflike that and you know, I think
I'm just, I think you're my lasthope, so I'm just going to give

(32:10):
up on this dog.
So what should I do?
So you get all this, you know,you can kind of picture that.
And then so you're like the dogwhisperer huh, and like you get
all these interesting comments.
You want to interject 500 timesduring that kind of statement.
But you're sitting there andyou're looking at me with a nice
smile and actively listening.
But now what would yourresponse be at that moment?

(32:31):
Like, what do you address first?
Where do you go?
How do you empathize with astatement like that?

Speaker 2 (32:36):
Wait.
So your dog bit your uncle.

Speaker 1 (32:39):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (32:41):
That sounds really scary.
How are you doing?

Speaker 1 (32:46):
It was kind of scary.
I care about Uncle Bob and welike it for him to come over,
but he was pretty upset about it, and I was upset at my dog too.
I don't think he should be thealpha.
I should be the alpha and sayhello to Uncle Bob.

Speaker 2 (32:59):
Yeah Well, I mean you just saying he got bit and he
had to go to the hospital, likemy heart just sank, you know,
because that's never an easysituation.
You know you love, like yousaid, you love both individuals
there.
So I just feel that just justmakes me want to take a deep

(33:20):
breath when you're telling methat story.
So thank you for sharing thatwhen you're telling me that
story.

Speaker 1 (33:25):
So thank you for sharing that.
Oh, you're good.
That's pauses there, the pausesare gold there, so love that.
That's really interesting, thatconcept that you were just
saying, like take a pause, justlisten.
And you guys listening in rightnow can't see Valerie's face,
but she's got a really inviting.
Just I'm listening to you kindof look on our face, which is
practiced, you know, and it'scoming off naturally, but it's

(33:48):
something we do have to practice, something I've had to practice
for many years.
So yeah, but see, that's thestuff I'm talking about.
It's like that's the things wecan face.
But we also have to understandthat that's what that client is
experiencing, that's what thatguardian is experiencing, and
they might have a lot ofmisconceptions, but if we jump
in and try to change their mindsor fix something right at that

(34:10):
moment, we're going to lose them, so excellent.

Speaker 2 (34:13):
I am a self-proclaimed fixer, so that
is why I held on to emotional.
CPR.
So much in the act of listening, because I realized I wasn't
really listening.
Because you could do that sameexact scenario where someone's
giving you all this informationand you know you're kind of
going down this rabbit hole ofwhat you're going to do next.

(34:34):
So, instead of me listening andbeing present with you, I'm
coming up with the five waysthat I would fix all of your
problems and in that, my brainis focused on that and I'm not
focused on you and what you'resharing.
So you know it's reallyresonating with that person.
And you know also to in ourdistraction world.

(34:55):
Right, we got our watches, thatbuzz and our phones.
And you know, especially ifyou're like out, you know seeing
clients all day, like peoplecould be texting, calling all of
these things.
But really, you know, put thenotebook down, close the laptop,
just be two humans that aretrying to help this family and
this dog and start from there.

(35:15):
And yes, it very much has been aprocess to learn because, yeah,
we're, you're taught to triage,right.
You're like, okay, well, let'ssee bites.
Okay, we got to work on muscletraining, or maybe we don't have
Uncle Bob over anymore, right,and you're taught to triage,
right.
You're like, okay, well, let'ssee bites.
Okay, we got to work on muscletraining, or maybe we don't have
Uncle Bob over anymore, right?
And you're just like well,right, you can create a lot of
training plans just based onthat very short snippet of
information, but that's neverthe full story.

(35:36):
So, really, just giving thosepauses, because I think, if
you're giving those pauses, ifyour client's an auditory
processor, where they kind ofneed to talk through, right, and
they need to think about all ofthose things, it's very helpful
for them to have somebody,because also, too, guess what,
they're probably embarrassedabout that.
So they're not.
They haven't told their friendsand family that their dog bit

(35:58):
their uncle, right?
So you might be one of the onlypeople that they're telling
this very tough information.
So to have a safe space is huge.

Speaker 1 (36:09):
Huge, huge.
It's such a wise investmentthat pause and that listening is
a wise investment is that trustand relationship account that
we're building with that client.
So I would love to talk moreabout the trainer side here, but
we're going to take a quickbreak to hear a word from our
sponsors and we'll be right back.
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(36:32):
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(38:44):
All right, we're back here withValerie Bogey and we've been
talking about the human side ofbehavior cases and just the
human side in general.
I think this is a great episode, not only on behavior
consulting and dogs, but I thinkwe can get some really great
life lessons here, such asactive listening, which we're
just talking about.
But let's maybe shift gears.
We want to.
We have a lot of trainers andconsultants that listen to the

(39:05):
show, and we were just talkingabout.
But let's maybe shift gears.
We want to.
We have a lot of trainers andconsultants that listen to the
show and we were talking aboutsome of the tools they can use.
But what are some of the commonchallenges when you're talking
to trainers and consultants?
You know, is it maybe toxicrelationships with the clients?
Is it?
They're not participating inthe program, which is probably
the most common one, right?
So what do you see in yourcommon challenges that trainers
and consultants can face?

Speaker 2 (39:27):
Yes, all of that, yes , the compliance, that's huge.
And because I think we need toenter these spaces with positive
intent to think that, okay,well, if someone is paying me to
come over and guide them andteach them and come up with
these plans and educate them,you have to assume positive

(39:49):
intent, that they want to carryout those plans and do those
steps.
So then, as the trainer, youneed to figure out why.
And then also, too, how do youword that?
Well, why didn't you do yourhomework?
Okay, that just put them on thedefensive and they're gonna
shut down and probably not sharewith you Instead of, how can I

(40:12):
help you succeed with thistraining plan?
You know, is there a gap inwhat I taught you?
Did I give you too much?
Is this too complex?
You know, and I think a lot ofthose conversations oh well,
this doesn't make sense to havethe sanctuary or safe space for
my dog in this place because ofthis and this window.
And you know, and like, there'sso many little things that are

(40:34):
so client and patient specificor dog specific that if we kind
of go into it thinking like, ohwell, they just, they're just
wasting their money, they're noteven doing any of their
homework.
They're paying you because theywant your help, because they
trust you.
So now it's your job, just asif a dog is failing with

(40:54):
something that you're trying todo.
You're going to reevaluate,you're going to look at the
environment.
What else is going on here,right, like?
What other antecedents aregoing on Like, is there
something else reinforcing thisbehavior or not reinforcing this
behavior?
In this scenario?
So, using all of your dog skillson the human, I think, is
really important because that'sgoing to help you, because to us

(41:16):
, we got to fix this, you know,help with this dog, and that is
what we're coming in for.
Well, guess what?
If they have kids, if they havea job, if they have a family,
you know like, they have lifeoutside of that dog and so
really understanding them andbuilding that relationship from
the get-go is going to help you.
So then we can adjust thoseexpectations, right, because no

(41:40):
one's perfect.
The dog's not perfect Clientisn't, and I know I am not
perfect, right, like, and that'spart of learning, and you know,
and if you are not ready tofail, then you're not going to
succeed at learning, becausethat's part of the process.
So I think in those times whereit's like really easy to start
doing the blame game, taking itdown a notch and then kind of

(42:03):
figuring out like let's usethose same behavior sleuthing
skills that you use to helpidentify challenges with that
pet for this human.

Speaker 1 (42:13):
What do you do for the clients or when a trainer is
really struggling, sort ofbuilding a relationship with the
client?
Maybe there's just this wall upor the personalities are
clashing and they're reallystruggling.
Or maybe the client's just thiswall up or the personalities
are clashing and they're reallystruggling.
Or maybe the client's just atoxic person, or we can talk
about toxic people just ingeneral.
So maybe it's not even a clientwe can talk about.

(42:34):
Just what do we do with toxicrelationships?
If it's a client or a friend orwhatever, how do you kind of
help trainers and consultantswith that issue?

Speaker 2 (42:43):
That's a lot to unpack, yeah, and consultants
with that issue, that's a lot toimpact.
I'm glad you brought that upbecause I think in any helping
profession you know you willsacrifice yourself to help and
it doesn't have to be that wayBecause, again, we have to
assume positive intent.
Everyone has a bad day but whenyou start noticing patterns in

(43:06):
behavior with that human, youcan make a judgment call and
decide is that a relationshipyou want to continue and you
have that power.
I think it's really difficultbecause there's so many amazing
dog trainers out there and youare working in a silo.
You started your own business,you got all you know, you did

(43:27):
the certifications, you'rekilling it, but you're by
yourself, so you don't have asounding board or your sounding
board is, you know, significantothers or family and friends,
but you don't really have acolleague or a coworker in some
situations, or if you do, itmight just be a very small team.
So I think, going with your gutin a lot of these situations,
because I think people, you know, oh well, it'll get better.

(43:50):
You know they just had a bad day, but you are a behaviorist.
If you're a dog trainer, youknow behavior and so you can
also recognize patterns in humanbehavior and being able to set
those boundaries.
If you continue to speak to methis way during our training
sessions, I will no longer beable to be your dog trainer.
Right, you're setting veryclear expectations and if they

(44:12):
can't meet that expectation,then that is on them and that is
not on you.
And I think it's so easy to saylike I can help the dog and
I'll muscle through, but at whatcost?
It's not fair to you.

Speaker 1 (44:25):
I have a follow-up to that.
What if you're a person like meor like how I used to be, a big
time introvert, people-pleasingkind of person and you would
never even fathom having thosewords come out of your mouth If
you continue to speak to me?
It would have been.
I could say that now, but ittook practice and time in
developing the confidence know,the confidence to say something
like that.

(44:45):
What are your recommendationsor suggestions to kind of build
up to that, being able toconfidently say, hey, listen, if
you keep speaking to me likethat way, or do you know how to
navigate that?

Speaker 2 (44:55):
So I think a great place to start is review your
onboarding paperwork, becauseyou can put things in your
contract, you know.
So when someone is coming toyou for assistance, you can put
something in there that isbasically a bullet point or
something you can fall back toright, because they're signing,
e-signing, whatever thatcancellation policy, right,

(45:19):
rescheduling policy, so you havelike all of your kind of norms
and conditions in a clientcontract.
But you can put something aboutyou know we are entering into a
mutual relationship andwhatever you want to put in
there to say like trust andrespect are paramount for your
pet success.
If at any point this is notbeing met, this relationship can

(45:42):
be ended by either party.
There's a difference betweenyou know, toxic relationship,
but then also maybe just you'rejust not a love match with that
trainer, you know, and there'sjust times where it's just like
the learning style and yourteaching style just don't match.
Or just you know, maybepersonality wise and it's okay
to call it out and just say, hey, I'm just I'm having a real

(46:04):
hard time.
Can you tell me a little bitmore about X?
And just trying to open upthose conversations, because
they might be feeling the sameexact way.
But now they're like oh well, Isigned up for a six pack so we
got to trudge through this, sorecognizing that you cannot help
everybody and there might beanother professional out there
that is a better match for thatperson.
So I think, also kind ofthinking from that, you know,

(46:26):
bigger community picture of ifthe goal is to help this family
and this pet, it doesn't alwayshave to be you, you know, like I
don't know how busy yourschedule is, you probably can't
help all the animals in yourcommunity anyways, right, so
being able to be confidentenough to say, because I think
that person is going to respectthe heck out of you if you can

(46:46):
have that conversation with themand be like listen, we've both
been trying really hard.
Do you want to continue?
Is this beneficial?
Are you learning right?
Or what if a family member justdied?
It might not be about you atall either, right?
There's just so much that goesinto that.
So I think, safeguardingyourself from the front end with
something in the clientcontract or your onboarding

(47:07):
paperwork somewhere where theyread it at that moment or not.
They're signing their name to it, so they should.
But then that's something ifyou don't feel comfortable
having that in-personconversation.
If you're going home and you'retyping up your report and
you're like, oh my gosh, or yousee them on your schedule next
week and you're like I don'tknow if I can do this, go back

(47:28):
to your client contract and sendthem an email and just say, hey
, you know, based on you know,our last interaction, I feel
like we're not really meetingthis.
You agreed to this and givethem an out right and kind of go
from there.
So I think obviously in personis always better.
But if you're building up tothat and you're building your
own confidence in thoseconversations, sending the email

(47:51):
first and then maybe theinvitation for a quick phone
call or something Right, becausethen both of you have time to
read and process and then canmaybe convene that way, versus
kind of on the fly where you'relike.
I'm not prepared Right Like Idon't know what to say, so that
I think could be a helpful tool.

Speaker 1 (48:07):
I think an additional helpful tool is if there was a
template for this, because Ithink the wording is the most
difficult part, because, at thesame time, you don't want to end
up with a negative Googlereview, right?
Somebody getting like taking itpersonally and be like, ah, you
know, I don't like how theytalked to me and they just left
me and they fired me or whatever, and next thing you know you're
waking up to a bad Facebookreview or somebody commenting

(48:27):
publicly about you, and wherewell-worded communication can
actually avoid that many times.
So just thinking out, loud here,you know now we're going to
have Valerie writing uptemplates for us.

Speaker 2 (48:39):
Yeah, sure how to fire.

Speaker 1 (48:41):
I'm using air quotes there.
How to?
fire but how to, you know, severa relationship with a client
that's just not working out Okay, so on the topic of toxic
relationships, obviously we havesocial media now and that's a
significant part of our work.
That is sometimes necessary,not always necessary.
There's arguments that we don'tnecessarily need social media,

(49:02):
but for people that I'm workingwith so I'm working with
trainers that are sort of, youknow, looking to get out there
and become speakers or teachcourses to other trainers they
kind of need social mediabecause that's going to build
brand awareness and exposure andso let's talk to that crowd.
But also even somebody justlike they're using social media
to get more clients, so thatit's kind of a necessary evil,

(49:22):
so to speak, Because the answeroften is just don't go on social
media, but you're, at the sametime, that's like saying to
somebody don't use the yellowpages or don't put an ad in the
newspaper 20 years ago right ordon't take out a radio ad,
you're going to miss theadvertising opportunities.
And, let's face it, social mediais a lot like that, and so
let's say somebody just theyhave to be in there.
But we have so much vitriolright now and it's been ongoing,

(49:45):
as we know.
But even in the last week, aswe're recording this, we've seen
this huge backlash against acompany that hosted an aversive
trainer in their conference andthis particular company really
got called out for it and somepeople were gracious with how
they called out.
But there's, of course, whenthese sort of large groups come

(50:07):
together, like I should say,there's, a huge response.
You're going to get a lot ofreally negative comments, to the
point of which, actually, I'veseen some illegal things.
You know slander, libel, death,threats I mean really awful
stuff to like poor people areworking at that company.
You know that's like wait aminute, I had nothing to do with
this.
I'm just a worker here andyou're threatening my life.
You know that's this kind ofstuff.

(50:28):
That is just awful, that'shappening.
So my question for you, the big, broad question, is what are
your suggestions for us, forself-preservation, for, let's
say, we still have to use socialmedia, but we have to learn how
to navigate these conversations, these comments, these things

(50:52):
that can happen in thesebacklash moments or even in more
of a microcosm, where it's justmaybe one comment and you have,
like, just a few peoplefollowing you all the way up to
if you have a million flowersand you have thousands of
comments.
What is your advice there?

Speaker 2 (51:01):
Necessary evil is a great way to talk about social
media because there's a lot ofgreat things about it.
We can stay in connection withpeople, we can learn new things.
We can see, you know, adorablemini cow videos like whatever,
whatever your whatever yourthing is there's a lot out there
, but I also feel like it.

(51:24):
You know, we just have thosekind of armchair critics right
where people are very secure inwhat they are typing from behind
a screen which, when you know,if you were really talking to
that human in conversation, youwould never say those things.

(51:48):
I think that is kind of one ofthe the tough parts about social
media and it's always there inyour face right, like you have
your phone, like yeah, if you'retrying to build your business,
you probably have yournotifications turned on so that
you can reply immediately whensomeone likes or makes a comment
and things like that.
So you're trying to be reallyengaging.
But that is also what is goingto zap all of your energy too.

(52:11):
So I think, as far as socialmedia, you need to kind of pick
your platforms wisely, you know,so you don't have to be in all
of them.
That's exhausting.
If you have a team that coulddo that for you, great, but if
you're just one person or, youknow, small team, you might not
have the bandwidth to be doingit all of the time.
So I think, choosing yourplatforms wisely so you don't

(52:34):
feel like you have to do likefive platforms all the time and
then also using the things thatare built into it, like for you
know Facebook, instagram, youcan set up posts and things like
that.
So maybe you have a dedicatedsocial media content posting and
you can do it for like thewhole month, set it and forget
it.
I think that brings up justthat whole idea again of like

(52:55):
setting boundaries.
Like, because, again, if youare out there, you're trying to
drum up more business and getpeople interested in what you're
doing.
You want to be available, right, so you can answer questions
and tell them all about yourservices and why they should
choose you.
But I don't think anyone shouldbe answering.
You know Facebook messages oryou know that kind of stuff.

(53:16):
You know nine o'clock at night,like, you need to kind of set
timeframes for yourself because,yeah, otherwise if you're just
constantly on it all the time,yeah, then you're going to see
all the negative things and youknow it's just going to become a
chore.
So I think, thinking of it asjust like, what's your dosing of
social media, right?
Like, okay, like, are you goingto do a daily?

(53:37):
Then it needs to be a verysmall amount every single day.
Are you going to do like everyother day.
Okay, we can have a little bitmore time to allow you to
respond and things like that butjust really being mindful of
how much time you're spending.
Most of our phones will tell ushow much time you're spending on
social media and is it going tomake or break a new client if

(53:57):
you respond in five minutes orfive hours or the next day?
Probably not right.
So you know, just being awarethat it's okay to turn it off,
it's actually better probablyfor you, you know, especially if
you are starting to be reallystressed out about what you're
seeing, what you're reading.
I mean, you know, like youcould look at all the you know
animal shelters and all thesedogs needs homes, and that can

(54:20):
be really draining if that's allyou're seeing in your feed all
day.
So you know, recognizing howyou're feeling after you're
viewing all of that and thengiving yourself some time to
decompress and kind of recoverafter that, because just because
it's not an active conversationor you're not seeing it in
person doesn't mean that itdoesn't take a toll on you.

Speaker 1 (54:39):
Those are really excellent, tangible tips,
because I think everybody needsto know how to balance their
time and their own needs forsocial media.
But let's use an example.
Let's say you're on socialmedia and you're just post.
Let's say you post about thispodcast oh, I'm excited to do a
podcast.
And somebody was like Valerie,you know, we don't really need

(54:59):
social workers.
They're just stupid, you know.
You don't know what you'retalking about and they leave a
nasty comment like that, whichhappens all the time on social
media what goes through yourhead and how would you respond
to that?

Speaker 2 (55:11):
Or would you respond, yeah, well, I mean reading that
.
First.
You have to think about whatheadspace are you in?
Is it the end of my day?
And I had a couple tough clientmeetings and things like that.
So I think what lens am Ilooking and reading that in?
Because I think a lot of timestoo, it is just words, so we're

(55:32):
not hearing someone's inflectionor how they're saying it.
We're like, well, I don't thinkwe really need social work, or
is it like we don't need socialwork, right?
Like we don't know how thatperson really meant it, because
now it's up to my interpretationon the other end.
So there's already a gap there.
So I think, with things likethat take time to process and I

(55:53):
typically wouldn't reply rightaway.
I'm going to give time andspace to let me process, because
if I am reeling and really madabout it, I don't want to
respond at that moment becauseI'm going to say something I'm
probably going to regret later.
So I think it's really easy.
You know, in some of those likecomment sections right, where
people are just firing, firing,firing and it's like man, is

(56:16):
anyone stopping to actually like, read and absorb or, like you
know, check in with your body tosee how you're feeling when
you're reading all of that,because it's so much you know.
Oh, you're wrong, I'm right,and this and that, and so I
would say, give some time andspace to process and then decide
is it worth replying to right,because a lot of times we can

(56:36):
just delete the comment.
Is that going to be easier?
Is it better to reach out tothat person in a private message
?
Right, it depends on who thatis.
Is it just a random person thatI have no context for why they
said that?
Maybe they had a bad experiencewith a social worker when they
were a kid?
You know, like, again, we haveno idea.

(56:57):
So I think you kind of have tonavigate them as they come, but
then just recognizing, like,again, it's your platform, you,
you have the choice.
You can delete, you can block.
Sometimes you might have otherpeople on your page come rally
for you and say, actually, youknow, we thought this was really
cool, or you know, or this iswhy.

(57:17):
Because, again, is it worthyour energy?
Because you don't have.
You know, like we're talkingabout all the hats that you're
wearing, all the you know, likewe're talking about all the hats
that you're wearing, all theyou know like, all the energy
that you're expending everysingle day.
So if you're pouring it allinto your social media and
having these little you knowcomments, fights and back and
forth and that kind of stuff,you're not going to have the

(57:39):
energy to do your best for thatnext training session coming up.
So is it worth it?

Speaker 1 (57:45):
Excellent point.
Yes, and that's a question thatmost of the actually the answer
for me is, most of the timeit's not worth it to respond.
It really isn't.
What's the benefit for you ifthat's taking time and energy
away from doing things you'retrying to do to help people and
their dogs and their animalsright.
So great way to wrap up there.
And I also want to talk aboutyou're going to be doing a

(58:13):
course for aggressivedogcom andit's all on the topics we were
just talking about.
You know the human side ofworking our cases, so tell us a
little bit more about that.

Speaker 2 (58:18):
I am very excited about this and I think we've
come up with some really greatthings to talk about for this
course.
So we're going to be havingthat in September and we're
going to.
It's going to be a two part, sochapter one is focusing, like
kind of how we did today, aboutunderstanding and supporting
clients, how to be a bettercoach, some active listening

(58:41):
skills, talk more about thecaregiver burden scoring, just a
lot of things so you can showup better for your clients,
which then, in turn, you willhelp that dog even better in
that regard, right, so, helpingthe human to help the pet.
And then that.
Part two is then all about you,because again, we're pouring,

(59:02):
pouring in these helpingprofessions, pouring ourselves
out there, just trying to helpeveryone.
But we need to take that stepback and say, well, what about
me?
How can we learn a little bitmore about self-care for
ourselves?
And what does that look like?
It's not all bubble baths andtrips around the world and
things.
Those are all great, but if youcome back home or you complete

(59:26):
that task and you feel the sameway, then that wasn't actually
self-care, because you shouldfeel rejuvenated, you should
feel different after you'redoing something, and so that's
going to look different foreveryone.
So, I think, kind of taking thatdeep dive into self-care, what
does that look like?
For some days it might bemaking yourself lunch, like

(59:46):
eating, like you know, if you'rehaving that super busy day or
you're having like a you know aday where you're not working and
you just feel off.
Sometimes your self care isjust literally feeding yourself
and drinking some water, andthat is going to be gold star
for that day.
You know you did it right, andso our standards and our
criteria are going to change,just like our criteria is going

(01:00:07):
to change for the dogs thatwe're training as well.
So, yeah, so I'm really excitedabout both workshops, obviously
, but you know, just having thatcombination effect, because I
think a lot of times we run outof time to talk about both sides
.
So I think, just being able tohave that opportunity of really
dedicating a little bit more indepth time to talk about these
things through the lens of a dogtrainer or dog professionals

(01:00:31):
Because again, we talked abouthow still new veterinary social
work is, and so there's notreally a lot of resources out
there for dog trainersspecifically.
So that's something that I amvery thankful that you're
allowing me to do this workshopand working with me to do this,

(01:00:51):
because there's such a need forit, right?
So because we can seeveterinary social workers in vet
clinics.
They're at vet med collegeswhere they're able to help the
vets, the clients and thestudents.
So you're actually training theup and coming veterinarians the
skills, self care, theresiliency, that intentional

(01:01:12):
well being before they actuallyare on the front lines
themselves, which is huge to tryto help change that industry
Gray's growing resiliency andanimal employees that I work for
.
You know we're doing that inthe zoo and aquarium realm, and
then now there's also vet socialworkers and animal shelters.
But what about the dog trainer?
So that's why I'm so excited tobring this to this platform,

(01:01:35):
because I think it's just such aneed and really getting as deep
as we can into you know bothsides of the human aspect as far
as the clients and you as theindividual and is going to be
pretty amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:01:50):
I'm excited for it and I highly agree with you.
It's going to be such apowerful, you know, way of
helping trainers work with thecases and consultants and all
the work we do, because, as youmentioned, there's just not a
lot of information out there.
So super excited for that.
It's going to be a link forthat in the show notes, so check
it out if you're interested inthe course and learning more
about the valuable tools we canuse to work with clients as well

(01:02:13):
as care for ourselves.
Valerie, where can people findyou if they want to reach out or
if they want to check out yoursite or anything else you're up
to these days?

Speaker 2 (01:02:20):
Well, speaking of social media, so I am on
Facebook, instagram.
I also lead the support groupthrough Insight Animal Behavior
Services, so you can go to theInsight website to learn about
that free support group that isfor pet owners that have pets
with behavior challenges, and Ialso offer low-cost one-on-one
peer support sessions and that'sfor anybody, so if you need

(01:02:44):
someone to talk to.
Again, I am not a licensedprofessional, so I do read a
disclaimer because it really isa peer support session, but
really, you know, giving you thetime and space, whether you are
a vet, a trainer, a client, ananimal shelter worker.
That's open and available toanyone, and I will also be

(01:03:04):
attending the Aggression in Dogsconference in Arizona, so come
say hi in person there as well.

Speaker 1 (01:03:10):
Wonderful Valerie.
Thank you so much.
This has been an excellentconversation and I'm looking
forward to seeing you soon.

Speaker 2 (01:03:16):
Awesome.
Thanks so much, Mike.

Speaker 1 (01:03:19):
That was such an enlightening conversation and
I'm grateful to have had theopportunity to chat with Valerie
.
She'll be giving a special minicourse for AggressiveDogcom in
September of 2024 on both how tosupport your clients as well as
support your own needs and theoften difficult work.
We do Stay tuned for moredetails on that, as I will be
sending out an email to everyonesubscribed to the newsletter,

(01:03:42):
which you can do, if you haven'talready, by going to
AggressiveDogcom and don'tforget, while you're there, you
can learn more about helpingdogs with aggression, from the
Aggression and Dogs MasterCourse to webinars from
world-renowned experts and evenan annual conference.
We have options for both petpros and pet owners to learn
more about aggression and dogs.
We also have the Help for Dogswith Aggression bonus episodes

(01:04:07):
that you can subscribe to.
These are solo shows where Iwalk you through how to work
with a variety of types ofaggression, such as resource
guarding, dog-to-dog aggression,territorial aggression,
fear-based aggression and much,much more.
You can find a link tosubscribe in the show notes or
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Podcasts.
Thanks for listening in and, asalways, stay well, my friends.