From Fear to Trust: Transforming Dog Grooming with Christine Neumeyer-Smith

In this episode, I chat with Christine Neumeyer-Smith, a master groomer, behavior specialist, AND certified professional dog trainer, to uncover the secrets of making grooming a stress-free experience for dogs. Christine's journey from a boarding kennel intern to a leading expert in the field is nothing short of inspiring. We tackle the communication gaps between groomers and trainers and reveal practical strategies like counter conditioning and consent-based training to enhance dog comfort and safety during grooming sessions.

About Christine:
"I'm a Master Groomer Behavior Specialist (MGBS), Certified Professional Groomer (CPG), Certified Behavior Consultant for Canines (CBCC-KA), Certified Professional Dog Trainer (CPDT-KA), and Fear Free Certified Groomer and Trainer (FFCP). My journey began in 1986 during an internship for the Essex Agricultural and Technical Institute Animal Science program, where I discovered my passion for training and grooming. In 2000, I founded Happy Critters, offering house call grooming, in-home training, and behavior consulting. As an instructor at the Whole Pet Grooming Academy, I teach The Master Groomer Behavior Specialist program online course. Additionally, I've been hosting the Creating Great Grooming Dogs podcast since 2018 and speaking at grooming conferences and summits."

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Dogs love me.
Just hold on to his foot whilehe screams.
He'll settle down.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
This episode is for all you groomers out there, or
anyone that grooms their own dog, which is just about everyone
who has, well, a dog.
Christine Neumeyer-Smith joinsme for this episode and we chat
about all the considerations totake to help dogs become more
comfortable with grooming,especially if they have a
history of aggression and anytype of handling or husbandry

(00:25):
situation.
Christine is a master groomerbehavior specialist, certified
professional groomer, certifiedbehavior consultant for canines,
certified professional dogtrainer and fear-free certified
groomer and trainer.
Her journey began in 1986during an internship for the
Essex Agricultural and TechnicalInstitute Animal Science

(00:46):
Program, where she discoveredher passion for training and
grooming.
In 2000, she founded HappyCritters offering house call
grooming, in-home training andbehavior consulting.
As an instructor at the HallPet Grooming Academy, she
teaches the Master GroomerBehavior Specialist Program
online course, the MasterGroomer Behavior Specialist
Program online course.

(01:09):
Christine has been hosting theCreating Great Grooming Dogs
podcast since 2018 and speaks atgrooming conferences and
summits, and if you are enjoyingthe bitey end of the dog, you
can support the podcast by goingto aggressivedogcom, where
there's a variety of resourcesto learn more about helping dogs
with aggression issues,including the upcoming
Aggression and Dogs Conferencehappening from October 11th to
13th 2024 in Scottsdale, arizona, with both in-person and online

(01:31):
options.
You can also learn more aboutthe Aggression and Dogs Master
Course, which is the mostcomprehensive course available
anywhere in the world forlearning how to work with and
help dogs with aggression issues.
I also have a wide variety ofwebinars, upcoming courses,
videos and articles, all fromthe foremost experts in training
and behavior.
We are your one-stop shop forall things related to aggression

(02:00):
in dogs.
Hey, everyone, welcome back tothe Bitey End of the Dog.
This week we have a topic thatwe haven't talked about on this
podcast before.
It has to do with grooming dogsand all of the considerations
we should be taking not onlyfrom the grooming side, but also
the behavior and training side.
So I'm really excited to haveChrissy Neumeier-Smith join us
this week.
Welcome, chrissy.

Speaker 1 (02:18):
Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
Let's dive right in here.
I would like to know what gotyou into grooming and training,
because that's sort of aninteresting dual role where
there's not a lot of trainersthat do both and not a lot of
groomers that do both.
So what got you into that sideof things?

Speaker 1 (02:34):
So I went to high school for agriculture and
animal science and we wererequired to have a summer job
internship and I got one at aboarding kennel.
So I was working as a kenneltech and during my lunch breaks
I was watching the groomers andfell in love with it, and then
I'd stay after work and hang outfor the dog training stuff and
ride my bike home.
Both of those things justgrabbed me from the very

(02:56):
beginning.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
Nice and that kind of bloomed into what you have
going on now, which are teachingtrainers and groomers all over
the world right Through youronline offerings.

Speaker 1 (03:05):
Yeah, yeah, which is pretty exciting.

Speaker 2 (03:08):
That's amazing and we were kind of talking too about
sometimes between industries orbetween professions.
So we have, like, theveterinary profession and the
trainers and groomers.
Sometimes there can be a littlebit of conflict in the
information and what beliefs arearound behavior and training
especially.
So what are some issues you'reseeing Because you have the

(03:29):
trainer's eyes as well as thegroomer's eyes, so let's kind of
look at both angles From agrooming lens, your groomer's
eyes.
What issues do you typicallysee that's happening or kind of
with the training side and thiscommunication between industries
?

Speaker 1 (03:44):
So I would say that a lot of these terms that we use
don't sync up and dog groomersif they say an e-collar, they're
talking an Elizabethan collar.
You know trainers, when theysay an e-collar, they're talking
about something entirelydifferent.
So some of our terms don'tmatch up.
Groomers tend to use terms likeholistic grooming.
Trainers tend to use thingslike cooperative care.

(04:05):
I am trying to get moregroomers to buy into the idea
that cooperative care is reallywhat we're looking for, but even
just the words that we use.
But I feel that there are a lotof places where there are some
gaps and each field doesn'treally know what the other one
is doing.
Non-groomers think they knowwhat grooming is and they really

(04:27):
don't.
You might have some blind spotsand non-trainers think that
they know what training is.
You know like well, what wouldan obedience class do to help
this dog?
But training is so much morethan obedience classes.

Speaker 2 (04:50):
So, from a groomer's point of view, they might not
even think to go to a trainerbecause they don't know what
kind of options are available tothem, yeah, and vice versa.
You're kind of seeing the samething from the trainer's
perspective and it's again sortof a lost in translation kind of
communication issue.
It sounds like.

Speaker 1 (04:57):
I think so.
I think so.
When a trainer gives an ownerinstructions and then the owner
gives the groomer instructions,they're playing telephone, you
know, and it does it.
The context is off, and oftenthe groomer doesn't have the
background to understand or howto implement the instructions
that have been given, and so ofcourse, they think these are
ridiculous.
I can't do that while I groom.

(05:18):
So, you know, there's there's alot of barriers that don't need
to be there.

Speaker 2 (05:23):
Yeah.
So let's kind of dive into someexamples of that, because as a
trainer, you know when I thinkabout okay, if I've got a dog
that has an issue with grooming,I'm going to do some counter
conditioning.
Maybe I'll use something like adistraction technique.
I use some consent-basedtraining or cooperative care and
teach the client how to do.
Maybe the dog teaches a chinrest at home, or something like

(05:43):
that.
Where are the problematic areasof that that you're seeing in
that translation?
Is it because it takes so muchtime or the skill sets?
What issues are you seeingthere?

Speaker 1 (05:51):
Oh, it's such a great question.
You even mentioned like chintargets, nose targets, things
like that.
The problem for groomers isthat there's nobody watching the
dog's head, and it's one of themost common things that we find
frustrating.
As a groomer, you areone-on-one with that dog and you
are trying to do something on aback foot and literally cannot

(06:11):
see if that dog is holding anose target or a chin target or
staring at the bucket or doingsome other start button behavior
.
So some of those start buttonbehaviors aren't a reality in
the grooming shop unless we nowhave two people and are charging
for two people worth of workand trying to help more groomers
understand that that's a greatprocedure to work toward not

(06:35):
needing it later.
So sometimes groomers are beingtold okay, and you'll need a
clicker and you'll need treats,but as a dog groomer, if you are
working with a dog, it's socommon'll need treats, but as a
dog groomer, if you are workingwith a dog, it's so common.
I'll use an example.
A dog groomer might be drying adog's front leg and they've got
the nozzle of the dryer undertheir left armpit.
They're holding the dog's footwith their left hand.

(06:56):
They've got a comb in betweenthe fingers of their left hand
because they're switching outfrom the brush in their right
hand to the comb and somebodytells them they need cookies and
a clicker and they're like I'malready doing three hands worth
of work and their frustrationgets there and they don't
understand the why.
They don't understand thatthese are approximations toward

(07:17):
a dog that you can do all ofthat with.
I hope that answers yourquestion.

Speaker 2 (07:22):
Definitely, definitely.
So, besides shape-shifting intoan octopus where you have like
eight arms, where you can holdall these different things.
What are some things thatyou're seeing that do work well,
translating from the trainersrecommending something, or teams
where you've seen trainersworking with somebody that needs
help in the grooming.
What are some types oftechniques that you do see work

(07:43):
well?

Speaker 1 (07:44):
What I think works really well is if a trainer is
talking to an owner aboutworking on things at home and
understanding the context thatthey're going to be used in, and
then the groomer has this dog,who the owners are already all
set with the idea that we don'tneed to complete a trim today,
we don't need to complete nailtrimming today, that they're
working cooperatively, that notjust with the dog, but the

(08:07):
groomer and the trainer are alsoon board with.
Let's help this dog have abetter experience today and let
go of the grooming outcomes, andthat works really well.

Speaker 2 (08:20):
And can you think of some actual techniques that we
might be doing?
And can you think of someactual techniques that we might
be doing?
Let's use an example a dog thatneeds, let's say, ear cleaning
or something like that, and thedog has an aversion to that.
But let's say it's something weneed to kind of get done.
It's kind of more urgent onthat side of things.
What do you see, for example,in that regard that a trainer

(08:42):
can work with at home and belike, okay, we're going to do
this at home with the client andthen it's going to translate
well to the grooming experiencewithout the trainer or the owner
there.

Speaker 1 (08:50):
You know, I think what works really well for
something like that is that theowners understand that when
they're at home they're tryingto incrementally help this dog
feel more comfortable with thetypes of touching, because that
does translate to others andmaybe they've been going to this
groomer for a while.
You know, maybe this is not anew stranger, but that's part of
what groomers face.

(09:10):
Groomers don't live with thesedogs, so if they have this dog
come in, that is, they've beenworking on doing something
around the ears.
Now, if the groomer knows, oh,I'm going to continue on with
the kind of training you've beendoing at home, if that
communication happens, you know,and maybe that is just ear
touches and lifting the ear upand then seeing how the dog

(09:32):
handles things, like, okay, nowwe're going to put a cotton ball
, and now we're going to put acotton ball near your ear and in
your ear and all those littleminute.
You know things that we do astrainers for a groomer.
If they don't understand thewhy, that can be really
frustrating, but it is for ourowners too.

Speaker 2 (09:50):
And if we think about groomers as a different, type
of owner that can be reallyhelpful for us.
So it sounds like, in a sense,if we're going to look at sort
of the techniques involved andwhat you're explaining there.
In my mind, let's desensitizethe dog a little bit more at
home.
So not any particular behaviorexpectation like contingency on
a particular behavior to do this.
In that context, versus, I'mjust going to get you used to

(10:12):
people touching your ears sothat way when you get to the
groomers or vets it's morelikely somebody could touch your
ears, so you're a little bitmore acclimated to that, rather
than I want you to do X, Y or Zbehavior when somebody's about
to touch your ears.
Does that kind of make sense?

Speaker 1 (10:28):
Yeah, to normalize the kind of touching that
groomers are going to do,because we have lots of
different equipment and it'shard for an owner to be able to
use that types of equipment.
But what if we just start offby normalizing all of those
touches being touched all over?
And it's almost like when we asdog trainers tell people yeah,
he doesn't do it on a walk, buthe can do it in your kitchen,

(10:51):
and that's a good start.
Can he do it in your kitchen,can he do it in your living room
, can he do it in your driveway,you know?
And to build up incrementallytowards something that looks
like a grooming shop environmentor a grooming environment,
because not all groomers aregrooming shops.
We have vans, we have housecall, we have lots of different
grooming setups.

Speaker 2 (11:10):
And so next steps to that?
So let's say we have a verydedicated pet guardian, for
instance, and they're intotraining, they're more into
behavior.
What would be next steps?
So we've got working ondesensitization, we're getting
the dog used to the equipmentyou're mentioning and some
handling.
Are there any sort of nextsteps, tangible behaviors, that
you might put into place?

Speaker 1 (11:31):
So I think if you are a trainer and you're super into
cooperative care, I would likeyou to consider the idea that
instead of nose targeting, chintargeting and the bucket game
things that are pretty common Tomove that into cooperative care
and your consent, your startbutton behavior is if the dog is
relaxed under your hand.
That's what I use as a startbutton behavior and that's what

(11:55):
I'm teaching groomers Can youopen your hand and is that dog
still staying there and relaxinginto you?
And to transition to that,because groomers can feel that
while we work Maybe not all thetime, but most of the time we
can feel if a dog is tense ornot.

Speaker 2 (12:11):
So when you say can you describe that a little bit
more?

Speaker 1 (12:13):
So you say, open your hand, and are you placing your
hand on a certain area or yeah,Can I hold your ear and not feel
like I have to physicallycontrol the dog from moving?
Can I hold a foot and open mypalm and have that foot stay
there?
These are ways that we can haveconsent in grooming that a
groomer can actually feel.
Can I lift your tail?
Can I manipulate your body,move you into different poses,

(12:38):
put equipment near you and haveyou stay loose.

Speaker 2 (12:42):
Can you describe a little bit more how somebody
would teach that at home?
Let's say, you've got somelisteners in and they're like
that sounds great, Chrissy, buthow do I go?
About doing that.

Speaker 1 (12:50):
And the way to do that is you want to start off
when your dog is already prettychill and get working on
touching them all over, and ifthey start to stiffen, that's
your signal that you've maybegone too far.
And how do we expand thatbubble?
How do we make this enjoyablefor your pet to be touched all
over, to casually lift theirfeet up with us, because that

(13:12):
will translate to what they needto do in a grooming setting?
I think that answers yourquestion.

Speaker 2 (13:18):
Yeah, and when you say you had mentioned earlier,
they kind of push into your handand I can kind of picture my
own dog when she wants to be petmore.
She does the whole hand nudgingthing.
But yeah, she gets verycomfortable about kind of
leaning into the space, my space, as you were mentioning.
Is that what you mean by that?

Speaker 1 (13:34):
Yeah, yeah.
Or if they're trying to pullaway.
You know I don't want dogspulling away and I think a lot
of people don't realize ifyou've never really watched
grooming.
All of our tools can hurt a dog.
We are literally using sharptools on wiggly creatures.
So sometimes people are like,can't you just use the hair
clippers instead of scissors?

(13:54):
And I'm like, yes, but thosecan hurt a dog too.
So at every step we're tryingto keep that dog what I tell my
listeners calm, comfortable andcooperative.
That's our goal through all ofit.
It should be about asinteresting as watching paint
dry.
And so if we talk to our ownersabout, like, get them used to
touching all over, you know itdoesn't even need to be with a

(14:15):
brush, it doesn't need to bewith a tool.
What if we just get them allloosey-goosey?
You know tech talkloosey-goosey and used to like,
oh, someone's messing with myear, someone's lifting up my
tail, someone's looking at mydew claws, someone's going to
look at my teeth, and thattranslates well to the
veterinary too.

Speaker 2 (14:33):
Yeah, and I will second the notion of things can
hurt, because going to thebarber there's nothing worse
than a dull pair of clippers onthe side of your head.
But I can say something to thebarber the dogs have to
communicate through bodylanguage or sometimes,
aggression.
If it hurts, so yeah, it's so.
Now, when you're talking aboutthat, are you pairing

(14:55):
reinforcement with it as well?
So let's say we start teachingstart buttons or like the dog
giving consent, leaning into myhand.
You then say great, and thenreinforce that in the home
environment Because we'll talkabout food in the grooming
environment more in just amoment.
But what about at home?
It's like, how do you teachthat, or reinforce that, I
should say.

Speaker 1 (15:15):
I think it's going to depend on what that dog is
comfortable with and if it'sgetting used to something new or
if it's working with a fear ofsomething they've already been
exposed to, and those are twoseparate problems that we see
pretty commonly in dog grooming.
The dog that has no experiencethe dog that has no experience
might not need cookies.
They might just be like what'sthis, what's happening?

(15:36):
Okay.
But the dog who has some fears,there's nothing wrong with
using cookies and stuff at home,maybe a clicker, maybe just
reward markers.
What I find translates later ingrooming is if they are not
using cookies at home and itstarts turning into like oh,
this just feels good.

Speaker 2 (15:53):
So even just the tactile feedback or the
relationship with the client canreally matter.
Speaking of which, how do yousee that play out?
Sometimes we have a dog that'slike okay, I trust you, I trust
you as my guardian, I'll leaninto you, I can totally be fine
with you touching me.
What about the dogs?
That it doesn't translate wellto strangers or a groomer or

(16:13):
somebody else, like only myperson can do that kind of stuff
to me, not you.
Do you see that happen?

Speaker 1 (16:19):
That happens quite a bit and what many groomers are
trying to do to address that isto set up meet and greets.
You know, maybe this dog is anew customer for us, or a new
dog to that owner, or a newpuppy, but a meet and greet like
let's just get you used to usbecause the difference between a
stranger is going to give me abath or my new weird friend is

(16:43):
going to give me a bath can be ahuge difference.
So for us to think about thatin terms of all right, well,
you've done a lot of work athome, and how can we transfer
that to other people, othertrusted people?

Speaker 2 (16:55):
Maybe that's not going to be every person, but
that could be a particulargroomer Do you find it
translates well, if that petguardian has some friends, come
over other family members tohelp practice with this.
Okay, Uncle Bob, come over andwe're going to have you do a
little bit of touching ears, andas long as the dog again is
showing consent for that.

Speaker 1 (17:15):
Perhaps I'm not really sure.
I haven't tried that becauseI'm a little bit worried about
someone trying to have a helpfulfriend come over and maybe
overwhelm their dog, you know.

Speaker 2 (17:25):
Yeah, I think it would matter a lot on who is
doing it.
Yeah, yeah, because.

Speaker 1 (17:29):
Next thing, you know, you've got that friend who's
like dogs.
Love me.
Just hold onto his foot whilehe screams.
He'll settle down, you know.

Speaker 2 (17:36):
And undo a whole lot of work.
Exactly, exactly.

Speaker 1 (17:41):
But owners can do a lot and especially if they're
thinking in terms of this, is tohelp our dogs feel comfortable.
This is to help our dog feelgood.
Dogs are going to have, if theyhave a 15 year lifespan,
they're going to have groomingonce in their life.

(18:01):
This is for 15 years and if wecan work on it in the beginning,
that comfort level and trustcarries through the whole time.

Speaker 2 (18:11):
Yeah, and what would you recommend then, since we're
on that topic, let's say, petguardian listening in at home.
Now they just got theireight-week puppy, 10-week-old
puppy, and what would be some ofyour top recommendations?
Like, start doing this now.
Again, let's face it, they'regetting all kinds of information
and we got to socialize, we gotto be careful with vaccinations

(18:31):
, like they're all kinds ofinformation and so they're like
oh, now I got to think aboutgrooming.
So if you were to really havean elevator pitch of like this,
start this now, because that'sreally going to help with the
grooming aspect.

Speaker 1 (18:47):
If you have a puppy, if you went to a breeder for a
puppy, that puppy has probablyalready started learning about
grooming processes.
We want that super, super early.
It is part of socialization andeven though they haven't had
their full set of vaccines, talkto your veterinarian about the
idea that a meet and greet in agrooming shop isn't about
socializing with other dogs.
You know they aren't going tobe putting them with other dogs,
but a lot of groomers are doingwhat we call a meet and greet

(19:10):
Maybe it's 10, 15 minutes, maybe20, where they bring that puppy
in.
Puppy gets cuddled by a wholebunch of new people, is exposed
to a grooming setting, hearsthings like dryers, see dogs
getting wet and is exposed tothe things that they're gonna
need for their whole life, muchlike we would expose them to

(19:30):
cars and kids.
And it's really an essentialpart of an early education for
these dogs.

Speaker 2 (19:37):
Do you find a lot of groomers offering that service
now?
It seems like it would be agreat, not only service for the
puppies but marketing really.
Like come in and check out theshop and, yeah, you can come in
free, socialize your puppy andthen we'll see you as a customer
for the rest of the dog's life,right?
Yeah, do you see that's astandard kind of a standard
practice or needs to happen more.

Speaker 1 (19:56):
It is really becoming a standard practice.
There's a lot of interest inbehavior in the grooming realm
and a lot of groomers are tryingto get owners to bring the pups
in for like a couple littlesessions that don't involve a
bath and maybe that firstgrooming session is a minimal,
like we're going to get you wet.
Maybe we don't even wet yourhead, but we're going to get you
wet, get you a little soapy,get you used to things.

(20:17):
It's actually becoming prettycommon practice and sometimes
they're selling those as apackage.
You know, like okay, your puppypackage is going to include
three of these little shortenedvisits.
We're going to get your puppyused to the kind of things that
they're going to need to know asan adult.

Speaker 2 (20:32):
Oh, that's fantastic.
That's good to hear because Ihadn't realized that, but that's
good to hear that that trend istaking off in not only the
grooming world but also theveterinary world.
The veterinary world Now, fromthe grooming standpoint.
What questions would you ask tothe pet guardians?
What groomers should ask thepet guardians?
Some tips for the groomerslistening in.

Speaker 1 (20:54):
So I have four questions that I want groomers
to ask, or really anybody who'sworking with animals to ask
owners to try to get a feel forhow their dog might respond to
things, and I tell these toeverybody who will listen.
But the first question is whatdoes your dog do if he doesn't
like something?
And this is before we've hadany behavior issue.

(21:14):
This is before we even meet thedog.
What does your dog do if hedoesn't like something?
And you might need to give themsome prompts.
They might be like what kind ofthings?
Well, what does he do if he'sleft alone in a room?
What does he do if you turn onthe vacuum cleaner and then they
start thinking about it andtell us what he does?
Question two is what does yourdog do if they don't like
something you're doing to themon their physical body?

(21:36):
And now an owner is in aposition to tell us a story
where we can get data.
So they tell us a story aboutsomething like that and you
might need to prompt them.
You might need to say wipinghim down when he comes in from
the rain, trying to look in hisear, trying to pull something
out of his fur and give themsome prompts and maybe they're
like you know what?
I can't think of anything.
He's great for everything.

(21:57):
But because we're not waitinguntil it's a behavior problem
and we're using these to assessthe owners are very open about
it and they're coming up withthat storytelling and seeing the
bigger picture.
Then question three is what doeshe do if you don't stop?
And most of our owners say whatI mean he put his teeth on me.
Why would?
Why, of course I stopped, youknow.

(22:18):
And so we don't really knowwhat a dog would do if they
don't stop.
Or maybe they have continuedand pressed on forward.
But that also tells us thestory of how this dog had an
issue and how it was addressed.
And then the fourth question iswhat do you think your dog will
do when I, as a stranger, don'tstop?
And that's where an owner oftensays this might be a training

(22:42):
problem.

Speaker 2 (22:45):
Yeah, I love those because they're general enough
to really extract theinformation.
I use similar questioning whenI'm talking about aggression
cases or with a client withaggression case, because
sometimes you need to ask a muchbroader question.
That's going to allow forsometimes.
Oh yeah, that's right, he alsodoes this or she also does that,
and I love those questions.

Speaker 1 (23:07):
And groomers should be assuming that every dog is an
aggression case until theyprove they're not.
I would rather assume that adog is going to have difficulty
at some point in the process andbe prepared for that than to
assume that everything's goingto go fine.
Trainers have a blind spot andmany trainers do which is that
we work with owners who knowthat they have a problem,

(23:29):
recognize that they have aproblem and made at least one
step toward fixing it.
Groomers work with the fullrange of pets out there, so they
may have an owner who's likewell, of course he's going to
try to bite you.
Dogs hate grooming.
That's why we brought him toyou.
So this gives us moreinformation for us to find out
what this dog is really likelyto do, and then from that

(23:51):
conversation we can talk to anowner, perhaps about this dog
sounds like he might really hurtsomebody, or I'm glad he.

Speaker 2 (24:00):
Sounds like he's going to be great and that's a
conundrum because I was justthinking like, what do you do
Like, because some pet guardiansthey can't trim the dog's nails
and they're afraid to that.
And that's a conundrum becauseI was just thinking like, what
do you do like, because some petguardians, they can't trim the
dog's nails.
So they're afraid to.
And you know, and there's okay,let's take the dog to the
groomer because the groomer isgoing to get it done.
But what if the groomer's likeI'm not going to be able to get
it done because your dog doesn'twant me to trim the nail?

(24:20):
So what is?
How do those conversations go?
I mean, that must be tough,especially from a business
standpoint, right?
How do you navigate thatconversation?

Speaker 1 (24:29):
That is really tricky .
So because I do the behaviorpart also, I can talk to them
about.
You know what I know in thepast you've probably been able
to pay for people to justrestrain your dog and get it
done, but that's also why youhave a seven-year-old dog who's
still terrified of it, and a lotof people don't realize that

(24:49):
dogs can become injured whilethings like this are happening.
You know, the more people youadd.
So I talk to people about let'ssee what we can do about
helping them feel better aboutit.
But there are lots of differentways to handle that
conversation.
I had a customer who was likewell, I came to you because
you're supposed to be some sortof a behavior specialist and you
know now you're telling me youwon't do it and I'm like I said
I wouldn't do it your way.

(25:11):
I have options for you.
You know like there are otherthings that we can do and it's
going to require you to buy in.
You know, whether that be doingsome homework or helping out or
just bringing them in oftenenough, as we've prescribed, so
that we can say like, hey, justbring them in more often, let's
go ahead and do this stuff, helpthem feel comfortable with us,
help them feel comfortable withthe touching and then help them

(25:32):
feel comfortable with the nailtrimming, you know, but the idea
that they want it done and theyjust want us to climb all over
that dog and get it done and itlooks like, you know, like a
football tackle, and that's notcool, that's not okay, and it
looks like a football tackle andthat's not cool, that's not
okay, yeah, so I'm thinking froma groomer's perspective and you
have clients that are just,they want to get it done.

Speaker 2 (25:55):
And they come to see you and they think, okay,
chrissy's great, she's going tobe able to do this magical
behavior stuff.
But then you tell them aboutthe more the planned approach
that you'd like to take.
And they're like all right,forget that, the planned
approach that you'd like to take.
And they're like all right,forget that, I'm just going to
go to the other person that justholds my dog down and I just
get it over with.
That must just like trainers.
We have the issue of compassionfatigue.
We get concerned about that dogbecause we're in it for the

(26:16):
dogs as well as the people.
But we're really worried aboutthat dog that's now going to be
subjected to an aversiveexperience.
How do you navigate that inyour own world?
Or, you know, maybe you've hadthat insight from other groomers
as well.

Speaker 1 (26:28):
Absolutely.
We talk to them about the ideathat if your dog learns to be
comfortable with this, futurenail trims are all going to be
safer.
It's sad but true.
I have occasionally shownowners video.
There's a video up of a dogthat dies during a nail trim.
You know it's sad but true.

(26:52):
The idea that we'll just put amuzzle on him and then he can't
bite you.
But there are lots of ways tobe injured, you know, and so
sometimes we have to backtrackto like that is not safe.
I have some safe options foryou, but that's just not safe.
And when that dog is in my careand I have to choose the safest
version.
But I also tell them in myexperience if you give me three
or four sessions where I don'thave to worry about what gets

(27:15):
completed nail trim wise, as anexample, and we just work on
behavior give me three or foursessions to show you that we can
have improvement, becausesometimes they just don't
believe that there's a way toimprove it.

Speaker 2 (27:29):
How do you cope with it as a groomer when you're
seeing that, regardless of what?
However you try to talk to theclient, they're just like no,
I'm off, I'm going to go back tothat.
And then you see that you knowyou might see it repeatedly too.
Sometimes we as trainers, wesee these strings of cases that
they end up going to somebodythat's promising a quick fix but
it does nothing to help thatdog feel better in that

(27:50):
situation.
How do you, chrissy, cope withthat?

Speaker 1 (27:54):
Yeah, it breaks my heart.
It makes me feel like I didn'teffectively help that owner
understand the problem.
You know it doesn't happen veryoften, but every once in a
while, and usually it's notanother groomer, it's when the
veterinarian has told them likedon't worry about it, just bring
him in, we will have the techsclimb all over him and do it.
You know, like usually it'sit's.

(28:16):
People don't usually bump myopinion for other groomers or
other trainers.
It's usually like, well, thevet said and I'm like but we
have these other options.
But also to be able to say inmy experience, I can teach your
dog to be much better for this.
They may never love it, but Ican teach a healthy dog to be a
safe dog.

Speaker 2 (28:35):
Yeah, do you have any advice for newer groomers?
Because it sounds like you'reseasoned and you also have the
benefit of being who you are andso you sort of like what I do
is you have already thecredibility, so kind of what you
say resonates.
It's more likely to resonatewith people that know your
reputation.
Do you have any advice for thenewer groomers out there and
this would resonate withtrainers as well when you're

(28:59):
experiencing these cases where,okay, here's a dog that's just
going back to the old handlingand rough handling situation and
you start to see that over andover and it starts to affect you
emotionally.
What is your advice to the newgroomers in the field?
They're seeing that and they'regetting burnt out because they
keep seeing that and they'retrying to follow the model
you're demonstrating.

Speaker 1 (29:19):
You know, I think the way to start that is if you're
brand new and you don't haveyour own case study yet, you
don't have your miraculoustransformation story of your own
, but to say I know that thismakes it worse.
I know that holding this dogdown and doing it while they
scream even though nail trimsare very important I know that

(29:42):
this will make it worse and thatcan be the little nugget that
you hold on to and you're likelisten, there are things that we
don't do because we know it'llmake it worse.
You know it can be hard tofigure out the various ways to
explain things to an owner, butI tell my owners too, like what
I tell my listeners, which isthe goal is a dog who is calm,
comfortable and cooperative, andwe're going to meet them

(30:04):
partway with that cooperation.
It calm, comfortable andcooperative and we're going to
meet them partway with thatcooperation.
It's not obedience, it'scooperative, but we need them to
be calm for it and there mightbe some work that we have to do
for this dog to be touched,nevermind the nail trim.
I think that a lot of the timewe're assessing nail trim
problems because that's thething we're having difficulty
doing, but the dog has a muchbigger issue.

Speaker 2 (30:24):
Yeah, yeah, and I want to talk more about
aggression, to kind of segueingfrom that, those issues that the
dogs are experiencing and howit can manifest into aggression.
But we are going to take aquick break to hear a word from
our sponsor and we'll be rightback.
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All right, we're back here withChrissy Neumeier-Smith.
We've been talking aboutgrooming and now I want to jump
into the topic of aggression andseeing aggression in the
grooming context.
What are some safetyprecautions other than muzzles?
We, of course, talk aboutmuzzles a lot on this podcast,

(32:57):
but well, actually I would wantto know more about what you
think about which types ofmuzzles, but let's talk about
safety in general.
What are your toprecommendations for groomers to
stay safe in the groomingenvironment?

Speaker 1 (33:09):
So a lot of groomers use things like an Elizabethan
collar, and that's pretty commonbecause we're working on a part
of their body where now theycan breathe freely.
They've got the Elizabethancollar.
It can keep them from gettingto us at their back end.
But, frankly, the idea thatthey're aggressive because
grooming is unpleasant,uncomfortable and or scary, and

(33:32):
we really need to be thinkingabout the source, just like we
do with any dog training thatwe're doing, you know like, okay
, why is this dog finding itunpleasant and can we safely set
up a scenario where this dog isnow feeling safe but also we
are not going to get hurt?
There are a couple of thingsthat groomers do that others
don't do, which is like reachdown to a dog you've never met

(33:56):
oh, her name's Bella and she'salways been good for grooming
and reach down and pick that dogup.
Think about the invasive things.
Everything about grooming isevasive and intrusive.
You know trying to teachgroomers about least intrusive
and minimally aversive whengrooming is intrusive and in
many cases, aversive just bywhat we need to do so to keep

(34:16):
everything safe.
Part of that is going to besetting some boundaries for when
the dog is nervous, what we'regoing to do and let go of the
idea that this grooming needs tobe completed and maybe have a
little checklist of what's mostimportant today.
Is it getting around those eyes?
Is it getting the nails trimmed?
Is it getting some length off?

(34:37):
Is it the bath?
And letting go of the idea thateverything needs to be
completed, because I'm trying tomake groomers understand that
we don't sell haircuts.
We sell haircutting servicesand many of these dogs are not
well-prepared for our servicesand in one fell swoop we could
teach them to be terrified.

Speaker 2 (34:55):
How do you, from a business standpoint, how do you
suggest groomers navigate that?
Let's say, okay, because I'munfamiliar with how that would
be built or how that works.
But let's say we've got to getnails done, hair trim, bath, you
know the whole nine.
And you go in there and like,okay, all we could do is the
nail trims today or the bathtoday.

(35:16):
Do you then send the dog homebecause you're noticing the
dog's nervous and uncomfortableand you want to be following to
make sure that this dog iscomfortable and we're not doing
any damage here to the dog'sbehavioral repertoire, so to
speak?
What do you do then?
Or what do groomers do then?
Do they still charge for thefull session, or how does it

(35:37):
work?

Speaker 1 (35:38):
I'm trying to encourage groomers to ask those
four questions that we went overso that they have a better idea
of what they're expecting.
But also maybe that firstgrooming is the one where you're
really finding out how this dogfeels about it, and so because
of that, you've already talkedto your owners about listen,
we're going to do a certainamount of time, Maybe it's by

(35:58):
the timeframe.
As a house call groomer, I willsometimes book somebody like
listen, your dog's not going tobe able to do a full grooming
session, let's book one hour.
It has a start and end.
It has a price attached to itthat does not refer to our
outcome.
You know, it's not like Ibought a pretty head.
So if we help people understandthat this is the effort

(36:20):
involved because these areprofessional services and not
necessarily the nail trim or thehaircut but we are working
toward effective nail trimming,haircutting, bathing, drying for
the future, I love that it'svery similar to training,
especially in aggression cases,is that we are not going to
complete the product in onesession.

Speaker 2 (36:42):
So a lot of it for me is the educational component in
that initial exchange with theclient just talking through
things how it's going to work soyou can set expectations.
It sounds very similar in thatregard.

Speaker 1 (36:53):
Very similar, very similar, and by doing that then
your owner can ask you thequestions and the owner can say,
but wait, so I mean he needs tolook good.
You know we have company comingover this weekend and we can
have those finer conversations,those more minute conversations
about let me see what I can doto make his head pretty, but
your dog isn't well prepared forthis.

(37:14):
Grooming is weird, it's reallyweird.
We are touching every little,teeny, tiny millimeter of that
dog, every little tiny spotwe're in their gums, we're
touching their teeth.
We're all over the place onthat dog and for a lot of our
dogs that is really scary.

Speaker 2 (37:33):
Yeah, now what's a conversation technique?
You would have to convince theclients a little bit more of
that, really advocating fortheir dog's needs and helping
them understand, rather than theclient wants a pretty dog for
their guests coming over thisweekend.
I'm sure that conversationcomes up a lot for you guys.
And what are some tips for that?
For groomers listening in?

Speaker 1 (37:54):
It does come up a lot and I know a lot of groomers
are worried about what does thatdog look like when they leave
my shop.
But that last little bit of Ineed to make him perfect is
probably at that dog's past thatdog's limit.
So I actually started my ownbusiness back in 2000 because I

(38:15):
was so tired of working withthese dogs during a grooming
appointment and getting them sothat they're really good and
having a boss tell me but youcan't go home looking like that,
you need to finish it.
But he can't go home lookinglike that, you need to finish it
.
And knowing that I had madesuch progress and that the last
10 minutes dissolved into, youknow, fear and snapping or

(38:35):
whatever that dog does when theyrespond to fear, which might be
aggression or it might betrying to jump off the table or
get away from us, you know.
So if in those last couple ofminutes at all just made all of
your work irrelevant andsometimes that's what groomers
need to hear and owners need tohear like, oh yeah, I don't want
to undo the good work thatwe're doing and also helping

(38:59):
them understand the futurePuppies that are being born
right now in January of 2024will have grooming needs till
2039.
Are we going to fight with thatdog that whole time?
It just doesn't even make senseand sometimes that's what helps
owners go whoa, yeah, that's along time of fighting with a dog
.
We can teach them to be good.

Speaker 2 (39:21):
Yeah, yeah, it puts things in perspective for sure
for them.
I want to take just a step backagain to the safety precautions
as well.
You had mentioned theElizabethan collar we had
touched based on muzzles thatcould be used in some contexts.
But what else would yourecommend for groomers?
Body language, reading likewhat are some of your top?
Like if you had a brand newgroomer and you're like you've

(39:41):
got to stay safe here, what arethe top?
Some of the top other thingsthat you would include.

Speaker 1 (39:46):
I can tell you that a lot of groomers are using tools
like belly bands and thehammocks and muzzles and
Elizabethan collars, and I'm notagainst those or really for
those.
I think that what's reallyimportant is that, no matter
what we are using, it's abouthow the dog perceives this
moment.
This moment matters.

(40:07):
Is the dog being held still sothat we can get something
completed, or is this dogactually finding this comforting
?
Things like hammocks and bellybands for an older dog who's
having trouble standing some ofthem relax into that.
Happy hoodies are another thingthat it's almost like a
terrycloth snood.
It just goes up around theirears.
It's almost like a terryclothsnood, like it just goes up
around their ears.

(40:27):
It's almost like a headband tohelp protect them from sound.
Some dogs find that reallyreassuring.
Other dogs find that reallyconstricting and scary.
So, no matter what we're using,our goal is to assess is this
helping this dog have a betterexperience today and also as
groomers?
If you are really worried abouta dog, I want you to take that

(40:48):
inner knowledge you're pickingup on something you know and say
am I in over my head?
Is this dog at a point thatthis is dangerous?
Groomers are masters at bodylanguage.
They learn that very, veryquickly and they're really good
at recognizing body language.
What we're not well trained onis why that body language is

(41:09):
happening, what it means andwhat we can do about it.

Speaker 2 (41:14):
Tell me more.

Speaker 1 (41:15):
Yeah, so you know when you, when you reach into a
crate to pull a dog out, youknow I want you to think about
the dog grooming clientele,almost like shelter work.
You know, many times we don'tknow these dogs.
You know and you start noticingbody language.
You see that dog stiffen andgive you the eye, but are you

(41:36):
savvy enough with behavior toknow what that means or how to
help?
But if we're always thinking,can I help return this dog to
calm and help this dog cope withthe situation they're in,
that's a very safe mindset.
Does that answer your question?

Speaker 2 (41:51):
Totally, and it completely resonates with the
shelter side of things you werejust using that example where,
yes, they become really goodshelter handlers meaning they
are really good at reading bodylanguage and what could
potentially happen next in termsof biting, snapping, growling.

Speaker 1 (42:08):
Yeah, they're three chess moves ahead.
They see it and they're like Iknow what happens next.

Speaker 2 (42:14):
Yes, yeah, and that just comes from hands-on
experience.
That's why I recommend trainersvolunteer with shelters as much
as they can, because that's thebest way to get hands-on not
only with the dogs but readingthe dogs and reading recognizing
body language.
It's such a crucial skill tostay safe.
But the underlying you touchedon it really well there, chrissy
is that the underlying emotionsand what could be motivating

(42:35):
that dog's body language or theemotional responses we're seeing
, right, that can make thedifference with how to really
empathize and when to take nextsteps with that dog.
And so, in that regard, how doyou teach groomers to kind of
know when to push or stop orpush or stick?

(42:56):
Sometimes they call it intraining and you know you have.
We were talking like examplesbefore about you know you've got
a dog mid-shampoo and thensuddenly the dog is freezing or
showing some signs.
You're like uh-oh, you know.
So it's not a situation whereyou can be like, oh, we're going
to just stop because this dogis nervous.
You know there's certaininstances like that, but also
instances you could be likemid-shave and be like do I

(43:17):
continue with this shave?
So talk us through that alittle bit more.

Speaker 1 (43:21):
You know, I think if you can't get that dog to calm
down again, you know, if you'renot able to help return them to
calm and returning them to calmdoesn't necessarily mean you
have to all stop it might bethat you turn off a tool and
maybe this dog you've alreadyrealized that this dog likes a
little bit of petting Some ofour toy breeds like a good
snuggle.

(43:41):
You know Some of our goldensjust need somebody to.
You know, reassure them, givethem some baby talk.
You know some of our goldensjust need somebody to.
You know, reassure them, givethem some baby talk.
You know it really depends onthat dog and what that dog is
motivated by.
But if we circle back to, did Ieffectively help you calm down
again and how do you feel when Iturn the tool on?
And that's part of why we needto be thinking about how the dog

(44:03):
is experiencing this in thismoment.
Because if we just continuewhich is what I see a lot of
groomers who are like boy,something happened to this dog
in the past.
I don't know what's going on,but maybe he needs some training
.
Well, they're continuing withwhat is a really unfortunate
event in this dog's life.
You know this dog is having areally hard time and they're
having a hard time not giving usa hard time.

(44:25):
That's a a big mind shift formany groomers.
The dog grooming world is stillvery much um wrapped up in
dominance and you know I don'twant to say all groomers, but
it's still very, very common tohear things like he needs to
know better, he needs to respectyou, and most of these problems
we're seeing are not respectbased.

(44:46):
They are this is reallyuncomfortable, or this is
frightening, or maybe they'reuncomfortable because they are
sore.
We have a lot of health issueswith our dogs that are still
getting groomed.
You know some of these dogs areexperiencing hip pain and knee
pain while we're trying to standthem in a tub and stand them on
a table and pushing theirboundaries further than they can

(45:07):
handle.
So it's really important for usto look at that individual dog
and help our owners understandthat I am trying to do what's
right for your dog, for you andfor your dog, and this is about
helping your dog have the bestexperience so that we can
continue on for the rest oftheir life you on for the rest
of their life.

Speaker 2 (45:27):
Yeah, yeah, and I was just thinking along those lines
of just like training.
You start to get to know thatindividual dog and what, where
they can be sort of made to goalong a little bit further along
.
You kind of decide, okay, thisdog is ready for the next steps
versus this dog needs to stop,because you start to really
recognize the conversationyou're having with that
particular animal right.

Speaker 1 (45:45):
Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (45:48):
Do you have another thought on that?

Speaker 1 (45:50):
Well, I think that if we're helping the dogs be calm
and that's my mantra, I say itall the time but checking to see
if they're comfortable withthings, then you're also being
more aware of when that changehappens.
So if you're actively thinkingabout like okay, well, wait a
minute.
I noticed him get uncomfortablewhen I picked up the tool Well,
that's something that we canapply a particular process to

(46:14):
right.
We can create a new CER forthat.
But often we're just thinkinglike nail trimming is the thing
that that dog was worried about,but was it, you know, like
let's step back and notice whenwe lose that calmness, when that
dog starts to stiffen or giveus the eye or try to jump off
the table or whatever that thingmay be.

(46:34):
But if we're focusing in oncalm and always being aware of
what this dog is experiencing,we're more likely to notice when
the change happened and then wecan really assess how do we fix
that little piece?
There are lots of puzzle pieces, which is fascinating for us as
trainers For groomers.
That's the frustrating part,just teach me.

(46:54):
I don't want them to bite me.
They don't find that part neat.

Speaker 2 (47:00):
Yes.
So on that note of biting dogs,what are some considerations
for dogs that do have a bitehistory in a grooming setting?
So client comes to a groomer,like, okay, I've been trying
groomers but the last groomer wegot fired from because the dog
bit the groomer so we can muzzlethe dog.
We're working at a home withour trainer, so they're making

(47:20):
the steps.
But considerations for bothgroomers and trainers for dogs
that do have a bite history, doyou pick certain groomers or do
you have somebody that's veryexperienced?
Do you have like a network ofpeople?
Tell me more about what you dowith the dogs that bite.

Speaker 1 (47:34):
You know, I know a lot of groomers don't want to
use muzzles.
However, I feel that if youhave a dog with a bite history,
first thing I want to do isteach them to be comfortable
with a muzzle.
And to be comfortable with amuzzle, not just wear one, but
to be comfortable with one, sothat we can each perceive that
like, ah, biting is no longer onthe table, which for some dogs.

(47:54):
They realize that I know that'svery anthropomorphic and how
can I prove that?
But they change their tactic ifthey are wearing a muzzle and
we're still proceeding as ifthat dog's comfort is the most
important thing.
So hopefully they're learning.
Hmm wait, I wiggled a little bitand they tried to calm me down

(48:14):
again.
This isn't the party I had atthe last place.
You know.
This isn't the way it went downlast time.
We're making those efforts tohelp the dog be calm, but there
are.
If you are inexperienced oryou're worried, honor that and
send that dog to somebody else.
You know, and I don't want torecommend meds or not recommend

(48:36):
meds, but let's talk to ourveterinarian and have our owners
talk to our veterinarian about.
Is there something that thisdog maybe we can help this dog
have a better experience inthese moments and set it up for
the most success.

Speaker 2 (48:52):
Is there like, for instance, with the training
world?
We have folks like myself thatspecialize in aggression.
Do you see the same thinghappening in the grooming world,
where some groomers are like Iwill take the biting dogs
because that's my specialty.
I like working with the fearfuldogs.
The dogs that have issues withgrooming is like really at a
high level.
Are there people focusing onthat and your side of things?

Speaker 1 (49:12):
You know there really are.
There are a lot of people outthere saying like, hey, we can
do better.
There are lots of differentapproaches, but there are people
who are definitely like, yeah,I will.
I want to work with your shypup, I want to work with your
shy pup, I want to work withyour scared pup or I want to
work with your aggressive dog.
I train some of those people,so I have some of those people
going through my course.
But there are other ways to doit too.

(49:37):
I know a lot of groomers havetaken the fear-free
certifications because they arereally interested in this.
But what happens is is that itcan be really tricky if they
work for somebody and they havea business owner telling them
like I don't understand how wemake money on this.
You know, I don't understandhow this works.
We do haircuts, but sometimes Ican help them reach that

(49:57):
business owner by saying aninjured dog can cost you
thousands of dollars and this isunsafe.
Doing it the old way is unsafe.
If we set this up to be as safeas possible and we're charging
for our time, we have lostnothing.

Speaker 2 (50:14):
Yes, I like that, and an injured employee will cost
thousands more when you thinkabout it.
So you know, you want somebodytaking every step to ensure that
dog doesn't bite.

Speaker 1 (50:24):
I mean, I have business insurance, but I have a
$500 deductible.
You know, a nicked dog couldeasily cost a thousand, a couple
thousand.
You know like injuries happen.
We are using sharp instrumentsand often we are a millimeter
away from their skin.

Speaker 2 (50:41):
think about what it takes to trim near an eye yeah,
a lot of skill yeah in my mind,because that's not my area of
expertise now and nor do I wantit to be at this point, but so
so let's talk about food alittle bit, because we haven't
talked about using food.
With regards to safety anddistraction, you know you've

(51:03):
seen some.
I've seen some techniques whereyou know, somebody might smear
peanut butter on the side of ascale or use some sort of food
tube or something that the dogcan be distracted by while the
procedure is being done.
Do you see that commonly usedwe're seeing it more and more.

Speaker 1 (51:18):
But there are some concerns with using food in a
grooming environment, and partof that is related to how much
history you took on thatindividual dog, Because some of
our dogs are resource guardersand owners are never going to
think to tell a groomer that.
So there should be, if you'regoing to use food, some
discussions about what is helike with food.
Should be, if you're going touse food, some discussions about

(51:39):
what is he like with food.
Because if you can imagine adog that doesn't want anyone to
go near his dish and you'retrying to trim his nails while
he licks a lick mat, that couldbe really dangerous.
But also all of the other dogsin the room could have an effect
because of that food.
You know, like I smell peanutbutter, there's bacon happening
over there, or the squeezecheese, and maybe it just makes
them extra silly and wiggly.

(52:00):
Maybe they start resourceguarding Like this table smells
like something awesome and Idon't want anyone near my table,
you know.
So we have to really thinkabout that.
In the grooming setting, we arenot just working with one dog
and it's not our dog.
I don't know this dog the sameway I know my own dogs.
It's a little bit more likewould you do it with a shelter

(52:21):
dog in a room full of othershelter dogs.
You know a dog that maybe youdon't know all that well and
doesn't know you.
But for people who are usingtreats often what they're doing
is using, like the liver treatsor something like that that
doesn't create a mess, it's beeasier to clean up, Doesn't have
lingering scent you know thatwell.

(52:42):
We can't really perceive whatdogs smell, but isn't super
charged up scent, right Likeit's just kind of a treat,
something yummy, some morsel ofsomething or other, and doing a
lot of cleaning in between,probably booking their day
differently so that they canhave a dog with a really treat
heavy session, which oftenrequires two people.

Speaker 2 (53:02):
That's what I was just going to ask you is how to?
Because you had mentionedearlier, there's so many tools.
We've got so much going on withour hands already.
It's almost impossible ifyou're going to be treating a
dog while grooming or doing someactual procedure.
So that's where those lickymats or those food tubes
something that can dispense thefood without having your hands
on can be helpful.
But yes, it's absolutelyimportant to look at the

(53:25):
resource guarding component aswell.

Speaker 1 (53:28):
And also is it going to create a mess on that dog's
face that you're trying to trim.
Right, you know that dog's nowlicking everything and you're
like I got your face all niceand dry, I think, because as
humans we often get our haircutwet.
You might not know that to do anice, proper dog haircut, we do
that dry.
So they've been bathed, driedand now we're doing a haircut.

(53:51):
And if there's peanut butter intheir hair that's not going to
be very helpful.

Speaker 2 (53:57):
So it's very context.
In situation specific, itsounds like when you're going to
use food, when you can't usefood, and you know.
Something else I thought about,as well as the comorbidity with
some resource guarding dogsalso have handling issues, so
they don't want to be touchedand as trainers we sometimes see
this a resource guarding casedog that guards their food bowl
also doesn't like to be handledand that typically is revealed

(54:24):
in the historical data wecollect or the information we
get from the client whichcustomers don't really give
groomers that information which?

Speaker 1 (54:28):
is why I encourage those four questions Like know
what you're getting into?
Because owners think, well, I'mjust going to pay to have
somebody do it, you know.
And they don't realize thatthat's it's not our job to get
hurt.
A lot of these owners don'trealize they have a problem.
Of course he goes crazy ifsomebody goes near his food dish
or I would never go near him ifhe had a bone on the couch.
We can't sit on the couch ifhe's chewing a toy, but they

(54:50):
don't tell us that.
So even if we want to usesomething like treats, it
requires a little bit moreforethought to find out what's
going on with this particulardog.
But maybe we didn't think aboutthat with the dog two tables
down.

Speaker 2 (55:03):
Yeah, yeah, a lot of these issues can be alleviated
by just good communication withthe client and asking the right
questions, and I love thatthere's like this educational
component to it too for ourclients, meaning we're them or
or giving them the informationthey need to be.
What else to be aware of?
It's not just send the dog offlike to to auto body shop and

(55:23):
it's like boom comes back.
It's.

Speaker 1 (55:25):
There's a lot of details we want to know about to
ensure the best possibleoutcome for all involved and I
use auto body shop examples thatthere's a point where if I
bring my car to the shop, theygive me the brake job I need or
they don't do the brake work.
I don't get to pick and choosewhat happens in my brake job,
you know.
So if we're like listen, asyour groomer, I need to help him

(55:48):
be comfortable with this.
I can't give you the nail trimyou thought you wanted If it
involves like four people and amuzzle and just get it done,
like that's trying to tell themechanic how to do my breaks.
And as a professional we needto be able to say like listen,
we know that makes it worse,that's dangerous.
Someone's going to get hurt,much like your break job.
If you don't get your break jobdone right, it's going to make

(56:10):
things worse.

Speaker 2 (56:12):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good analogy.
So let's segue into a littlebit about breeds, because we do
like to talk about breedcharacteristics on this show.
So we could talk about it froma grooming and a training
standpoint.
So grooming, obviously youmight think of doodles or
something where it's going to bedifferent than grooming a
Doberman.
But what about from thebehavior aspect?
So from your trainer lens, ifyou were to say, okay, we've got

(56:34):
to be considerate around thisparticular breed because they're
more prone to be suspicious ofhandling or touching, would you
say there's any particularbreeds you're cautious of or
just more aware of when you'restarting the grooming process?

Speaker 1 (56:48):
I would say I talk to a lot of groomers about
understanding our terriersbetter.
Because if we look at whatterriers were bred to do, their
I'm uncomfortable response isoften aggressive, like hey, I'm
uncomfortable, they're not goingto freeze, they're not going to
try to run away Like that.
We bred that into them.
So to know that ahead of timeand just help them be

(57:09):
comfortable so that we don't seethat response.
They aren't particularlyaggressive.
They're not naughty dogs and Ihate the term spicy, but people
use spicy but if we look at whatthey were bred to do, when
they're uncomfortable, yeah,they're going to go off and do a
kill rat behavior.
So we need to think about that.
But also, I'd say it's not somuch the breeds as much as it's

(57:32):
some of these doodles.
These poodle mixes have reallycomplicated coats and lots of
complicated grooming needs.
So there are a lot of problemswith those breeds if they are
not well-versed in the kind ofthings we need to do.
Because by five months old adoodle is probably matted and
they're coming in for theirfirst grooming at five months

(57:53):
old.
They probably need to beclipped down all the way,
probably need to be clipped downall the way and that's
exhausting, first of all, likethe.
The kind of expectations forsome of these coat types and
their grooming needs mean thatthey need to do a longer
endurance run.
They get touched all over withmore stuff and things, so my
border collies don't know whatit's like to have their body

(58:14):
clipped, because that's not partof what their breed gets.
But these doodles and we'reseeing so many of them we need
to think about like this dog isgoing to be asked a lot more.
They're going to need to do alot more than like the average
golden.

Speaker 2 (58:28):
Yeah, yeah, doodles are the talk of the town for, I
think, trainers and groomers,and I love them.

Speaker 1 (58:35):
I love them, but if you're not thinking about their
we referenced Kim Brophy's bookquite a bit like but the
standard poodle and a goldenretriever, that's a golden
doodle, that's all hunting dogLike we would.
We would not expect a younggolden retriever to put up with
the kind of things that we'retrying to do with a young doodle
.
You know they're an adolescent,they're goofy.

(58:57):
Young doodle.
They're an adolescent, they'regoofy.
They have no patience at all.
Yet they have a coat typethat's going to take two hours
or more.

Speaker 2 (59:08):
Yeah yeah, interesting point, interesting
point.
So I'd like to hear about maybeone case that you've had a
grooming experience that reallyresonated in your mind, whether
it was something reallydifficult or something that had
a really wonderful outcome.
Can you think of something youcan share with the audience?

Speaker 1 (59:24):
So I had a little old dog who when she would get
excited she was, she came to meas a new customer because she
was starting to have seizures ifshe got really excited.
So at 16, like starting up witha new groomer and they thought,
you know, let's just dowhatever we can with her and
trying to help her becomfortable with things that

(59:44):
maybe she was never comfortablewith before.
And we did, and we did not haveany seizures, we didn't get her
worked up and I think a lot ofpeople would have given up on
the dog that age.
But she can't be sedated forgrooming, she's much too old for
that.
She's frail, she's fragile, shehas health issues.
So to think about, how can wecome up with a plan that's going

(01:00:06):
to work for an older dog withknown medical issues?
And I circle back to can wejust work on calm, comfortable
and know?
And that's what we did, becauseeven an older dog who may not
have the cognitive ability tolearn new things can respond
well to someone trying to helpthem feel comfortable.

Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
Yeah, it resonates so much when you think about an
example of somebody you knowrestraining an old, a senior
person you know, and justholding it about, just getting
it done with, and just how awfulthat would be and we don't
think about that sometimes withdogs.

Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
And if I had known her earlier in her life, we
might have avoided all of thatinstead of groomings that she
never felt comfortable with, butnow, as an older, frail dog,
the behavior became hard for thegroomer to complete.
Does that make sense?

Speaker 2 (01:00:58):
Absolutely yes.
It's more about what the dog isexperiencing than what the
groomer to complete.
Does that make sense?
Absolutely yes, it's more aboutwhat the dog is experiencing
than what the groomer isexperiencing.
Yes, the moral here is let'sget our dogs into these grooming
environments early on and let'sget them acclimated in the way
we want them to so they'recomfortable.

Speaker 1 (01:01:14):
Yeah, I love it, and dogs that came to me fairly
young, with a fairly young with.
You know a bite history.
I'm thinking of one particularBichon.
When I got him used to it andcalm about it that never came
back.
I remember one day we weregrooming and I nicked his pad.
So here he's bleeding and itdidn't come back.
You know that trust is longlasting and if they can learn to

(01:01:39):
be comfortable with the process, I felt so awful.
The poor little guy.
But we're using sharp tools onmoving dogs and it wasn't really
his fault, just you know.
But it did not turn into.
I'm going to bite you now.
It did not revert back to whathe was when I met him.

Speaker 2 (01:01:56):
Yes, that trust and that relationship was built.

Speaker 1 (01:01:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:59):
That currency was in that account for you for that
little time teaching them to becomfortable with the things.

Speaker 1 (01:02:04):
So therefore it wasn't a thing that hurt him.
Does that make sense?
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:02:10):
Absolutely, chrissy.
Where can people find you ifyou want?
They want to learn more aboutyour courses, what you're
teaching, where can they go?

Speaker 1 (01:02:23):
So I have a podcast Creating Great Grooming Dogs,
which each episode is a20-minute training session,
really a discussion sessionabout some aspect of teaching
dogs to be good for grooming orother types of cooperative care.
Right now there are 192episodes, which is about 63
hours of free content.
I also teach at Whole PetGrooming Academy and I'm one of
the educators there and I teachthe Master Groomer Behavior

(01:02:44):
Specialist Diploma Program there.
So that's another good way tofind me, and I have another
podcast that I started up, butthe Knowledgeable Pet Owner.
I started that up with a coupleother groomer friends one who's
also a vet tech and one whodoes a lot of business speaking
for the grooming industry.
That was another project we'redoing to help owners and help
owners understand a little bitmore about owning their dog and

(01:03:07):
neat things that they can dowith their dog.

Speaker 2 (01:03:09):
Fantastic, and as usual, I'll link to all of those
in the show notes.
And Chrissy will also be doingsomething special for
aggressivedogcom later this year, so stay tuned for that as well
.
Chrissy, thank you so much.
This was wonderful talking withyou and I hope to have you on
again in the future.

Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 2 (01:03:30):
I'm really glad we had the opportunity to do an
episode on all things groomingand enjoyed this conversation
with Christine.
Things grooming and enjoyedthis conversation with Christine
.
Stay tuned, because Christineis also giving a course, along
with our good friend andcolleague, monique Fairchild,
for AggressiveDogcom in the fallof 2024, on safe handling, for
any time we need to provide carefor dogs, whether in the

(01:03:52):
grooming setting or in theveterinary setting, which is
Monique's specialty.
These two have teamed up tocreate a one-of-a-kind course
that is not available anywhereelse.
So stay tuned for more detailson that, as I'll be sending out
an email to everyone subscribedto the newsletter, which you can
do, if you haven't already doneso, by going to
aggressivedogcom and don'tforget, while you're there.

(01:04:14):
You can learn more about helpingdogs with aggression, from the
Aggression in Dogs Master Courseto webinars from world-renowned
experts and even an annualconference.
We have options for both petpros and pet owners to learn
more about aggression in dogs.
We also have the Help for Dogswith Aggression bonus episodes
that you can subscribe to.
These are solo shows where Iwalk you through how to work

(01:04:34):
with a variety of types ofaggression, such as resource
guarding, dog-to-dog aggression,territorial aggression,
fear-based aggression and much,much more.
You can find a link tosubscribe in the show notes or
by hitting the subscribe buttonif you're listening in on Apple
Podcasts.
Thanks for listening in and, asalways, stay well, my friends,
friends, friends, friends,friends, friends, friends,

(01:05:06):
friends friends, friends,friends, my friends.

Speaker 1 (01:05:19):
I smell peanut butter .
There's bacon happening overthere.