The Power of Nose Work for Canine Behavior and Enrichment with Nancy Reyes

What if you could turn your dog's natural sniffing instinct into a powerful tool for behavior modification and enrichment? Join us as we explore this intriguing idea with Nancy Reyes, a dog training expert with over thirty years of experience. Nancy takes us through the captivating evolution of nose work—a sport initially developed to help shelter dogs that has now garnered widespread recognition. Together, we navigate the fascinating world of scent detection activities, ranging from tracking to barn hunts, and discuss how utilizing a dog's sense of smell can revolutionize your approach to behavior modification and enrichment strategies.

About Nancy:

With three decades of professional experience, Nancy Reyes is a dedicated dog trainer whose journey began with a childhood fascination for animals. Over the years, her passion for understanding and training dogs has only grown stronger.

 Nancy's commitment extends beyond her professional pursuits; for the past 30 years, she has generously dedicated her time to working with shelter and rescue dogs throughout the Midwest. From providing training and evaluation assistance to fostering dogs in her own home, Nancy has truly made a difference in the lives of countless dogs.

In 2004, Nancy took the leap and established For Your K9 Inc., a thriving hub offering a diverse range of classes including Puppy, Basic Obedience, Agility, Barn Hunt, Rally, and  Nose Work located in Elmhurst, IL. She has worked extensively with a wide range of behavior issues from aggression to separation anxiety. At the heart of Nancy's training philosophy lies the belief in nurturing the bond between people and their dogs through effective communication and mutual respect.

A seasoned competitor in various canine activities such as obedience and agility, Nancy currently competing in nose work competitions. She holds multiple roles within the canine community, serving as a Certifying Official and Certified Instructor (CNWI) for NACSW (National Association of Canine Scent Work) and a CPE (Canine Performance Events) Scent Work judge, and  CWAGS (Canine Work and Games) judge.

She is an international speaker and presenter in the topic of behavior and nose work. Her travels have taken her to Japan and across the 50 states. 

Furthermore, beyond her training expertise, Nancy is also a certified Mental Management Instructor, coaching dog-handler teams to achieve their performance goals across different dog sports.

Nancy’s motto is: Become A Student of the Dog

http://www.foryourk9.com/

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
In many behavior change strategies in aggression
cases, we often focus on whatthe dog can see or hear, but how
often do we consider what thedog can smell and how that
impacts their behavior?
In this episode, I finally havethe opportunity to chat with
nose work expert Nancy Reyes,who has three decades of

(00:23):
professional experience as adedicated dog trainer, whose
journey began with a childhoodfascination for animals, she has
generously dedicated her timeto working with shelter and
rescue dogs throughout theMidwest.
From providing training andevaluation assistance to
fostering dogs in her own home,nancy has truly made a
difference in the lives ofcountless dogs.
Nancy established For yourCanine Incorporated a thriving

(00:46):
hub offering a diverse range ofclasses, including puppy basic
obedience, agility, barn hunt,rally and nose work.
Located in Elmhurst, illinois,she has worked extensively with
a wide range of behavior issues,from aggression to separation
anxiety.
Nancy believes in nurturing thebond between people and their
dogs through effectivecommunication and mutual respect

(01:08):
.
She's a seasoned competitor invarious canine activities, such
as obedience and agility, andcurrently competing in nose work
competitions.
She holds multiple roles withinthe canine community, serving
as certifying official andcertified instructor for NACSW,
which is the NationalAssociation of Canine Scent Work
, and a Canine PerformanceEvents, scent Work judge and

(01:30):
Canine Work and Games judge.
She's an international speakerand presenter on the topic of
behavior and nose work, and hertravels have taken her to Japan
and across the 50 states.
She's also a certified mentalmanagement instructor, coaching
dog handler teams to achievetheir performance goals across a
variety of dog sports.
Nancy's motto is become astudent of the dog, and if

(01:52):
you're enjoying the bitey end ofthe dog, you can support the
podcast by going toaggressivedogcom, where there's
a variety of resources to learnmore about helping dogs with
aggression issues, including theupcoming Aggression and Dogs
conference happening fromOctober 11th to 13th 2024 in
Scottsdale, arizona, with bothin-person and online options.
You can also learn more aboutthe Aggression and Dogs Master

(02:12):
Course, which is the mostcomprehensive course available
anywhere in the world forlearning how to work with and
help dogs with aggression issues.
I also have a wide variety ofwebinars, upcoming courses,
videos and articles.
I also have a wide variety ofwebinars, upcoming courses,
videos and articles, all fromthe foremost experts in training
and behavior.
We are your one-stop shop forall things related to aggression
in dogs.
Hey, everyone, welcome back tothe Bitey End of the Dog.

(02:37):
This week, we're going to betalking about nose work, and I
have none other than Nancy Reyeshere, who is an expert on that
topic, amongst many other things.
So welcome to the show, nancy.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
Thank you, I'm so excited to be here.

Speaker 1 (02:50):
So I want to jump right in because this may be a
topic that might not be asfamiliar to some of our
listeners and some might bedeeply involved.
So first let's start off likewhat is nose work.

Speaker 2 (03:00):
Well, nose work is a dot sport that was emulated from
detection work.
So back I think it's 2006,.
Seven in California, jill MaryO'Brien, amy Hero and Ron Gaunt
started working with shelterdogs to help them with
enrichment in that shelterenvironment, and then they had
some small classes doing nosework and so on and it became a

(03:24):
little bit picked up there outin California and then in 2010,
they started to take it on theroad a little bit.
People were starting to getinterested.
They heard all about it andthey went to the East Coast.
Then they came out to myfacility in the Midwest here in
2010.
And life has never been the sameafter that.

(03:44):
It's just become this great,wonderful sport that all of us
participate in.
And again, it's Mimic'sdetection work.
Obviously, we can't search fordrugs or anything like that,
like the detection dogs do, sothey start with essential oils
that we search for birch, aniseand clove, so they chose those

(04:05):
odors and that's what thesport's been based on.
And here we are, quite a fewyears later and it's a huge,
huge sport.
A lot of people participate init and it's been a game changer
for a lot of us that are in thedog sport world.

Speaker 1 (04:19):
Yeah, so it sounds like it's really branched out
quite a bit and there's anofficial association.
Now right for nose work.

Speaker 2 (04:26):
Yes, Amy and Jill and Ron developed the National
Association for Canine ScentWork, NACSW.
Since then, they were the onlygame in town for a very long
time, and now, you know, theother venues have picked it up
the AKC, UKC and so on.
So, yeah, it's huge, but thereis an official yes, they are the

(04:46):
official originators of thesport of nose work.

Speaker 1 (04:48):
And I got to dabble in one of those classes when I
was out in Lake Tahoe.
There was this beautiful dogcamp there and there was a class
for that and one of theinstructors was showing, with
the different scents you hadjust mentioned, and I thought it
was fascinating because justwatching those dogs work was a
lot different, of course, thanthe work I do with aggression
cases, and it had me thinking.
So there's a lot of differentactivities dogs will use their

(05:10):
noses for in the sense of ushumans, like oh, let's go do
this X, y or Z.
So you mentioned tracking anddrug detection and nose work.
Can you just kind of give us abrief overview of like the
different categories and when wethink about that, that'll help
us sort of wrap our mind aroundall those different categories,
like, say, like somebody wantsto do certain work, what would
they be looking for?

Speaker 2 (05:29):
Sure, sure, with nose work we are looking for scents
and we go to differentenvironments, so that's one way
where they can use their nose.
Then there's also barn hunt,little bit more regular, in that
the scene or the environment ispretty much the same.
It's a certain square footageof area with hay bales in it and

(05:50):
they're looking for a rat in atube, so they get to use their
nose there.
The difference with barn huntis the environment is pretty
much the same all the time.
Like in nose work, we go out tothe outside inside vehicles and
go to different areas.
Barn hunt it's a specific spaceand this is how it goes, and
tracking has been around for avery long time, even before nose

(06:11):
work.
You go and you find articlesand you just follow.
Human scent is what you'redoing there and that's been
around a very long time.
The challenge with trackingobviously is always finding the
space to do it.
You've got to have a big field.
The weather can be verychallenging for folks to be out
in the different elements, eventhough the tracking tests

(06:33):
they're going to be held nomatter what the weather is.
But tracking has been one ofthe first set sports, if you
will from many, many years ago.
And then nose work has justmade it easier for mostly
everybody to do it.
It's made it more available forthe rest of us to do it, if
those of us that don't want tobe out in the field in the
morning, walking long tracks andthings like that.

(06:53):
So it just made it moreavailable for us to do.
The other thing is nose work,all the other sports, agility,
obedience.
They are coming into our world.
We are telling them what to doand this is how it goes In scent
work, nose work, barn hunt,tracking.
We are going into their worldand I think that's what makes it
so challenging, because theyhave such a better scent ability

(07:16):
than we do and they're the onesthat run the game in that one,
which is hard for some of usthat are used to controlling
kind of what they do.
So nose work becomes a littlemore challenging for the handler
, the dogs.
It's so natural for them,that's what they do.
They sniff and they work.
They use their nose all thetime, every day, all their lives
.
It's the first thing they dowhen they're born, last thing

(07:37):
they do when they pass, unlessit's an illness that affects
that particular sense, but mostof the time, they're really
great at scenting better than wecan possibly ever imagine.
So it's interesting that we tryto control that sometimes and
you still see that because wewant to control everything.
But the dogs, we go into theirworld.
This is their game, not ours.

Speaker 1 (07:58):
I really love that how you put that.
We're going into their world,and I had to be thinking about
the different activities thatmany of us do with our dogs in
some format, some sport or someactivity in the ones that are,
we're going into their world orversus they're going into ours.
So it's really a lot on theactivities and their senses, you
know, and what they're able touse much better than us and we,

(08:19):
as you know, humans being muchmore visual, are using our
senses in that regard.
So if somebody wants to,somebody listening in is like
I've never tried scent work orany kind of exercise.
What do you think is theeasiest first step for them to
be like all right, I want to dothis with my dog Because I think
it's suitable for all dogs,right?

Speaker 2 (08:36):
Absolutely, absolutely.
It is suitable for all dogs.
So ideally you want to findsomebody who's teaching it.
Ideally you want to findsomebody who's a CNWI, because
we start dogs a certain way andthat is that instructor that's
certified through NACSW.
And the reason for that the wayNACSW starts dogs on odor does

(09:02):
make it available for all dogs.
All dogs can do it.
Some of the other ways peopleare starting dogs are directly
on odor and unfortunately, whenyou have a dog that has
reactivity issues or anxietyissues or anything like that,
it's very challenging to makethat odor important when the dog

(09:23):
is worried about their safetyand everything else.
So unfortunately, when youstart a dog that may have issues
like that directly on odor, itcauses a lot of stress for the
dog.
We take away their autonomy.
The odor is never going to beas important as food and the way
NACSW starts the dogs is.

(09:44):
It brings out their natural.
They start on food.
They bring out that naturalthing and if you make a mistake
on food, no big deal and thedog's still going to want to eat
, versus a dog If you scare themor they get worried or
something happens on that odor.
We've gotten dogs from othertrainers that have done that and
it's a tough gig to get themback to be okay with that

(10:06):
particular order.
So if you're going to start andyour dog has any potential
issues of anxiety, stress,reactivity, start with a CNWI
the dogs that have no issues andare great.
It doesn't matter how you startthem, they'll be great.

Speaker 1 (10:21):
That's a really good point, because you might be
listening in and thinking, ohhow can you screw up nose work?
You just got to let the dogs gosniff something.
But then when you get thosecases where it's easy to pair
certain stimuli with otherthings in the environment, you
got to be really, especially ifit's something so different than
what the dog typically wouldsmell.
You're like oh, there's thatsmell Like somebody's bad
cologne or something you can'tunforget it.

(10:45):
For me it's peach tree schnapps.
I had a really bad experiencein college with peach tree and
now I can't.
You know, it's just so aversiveto me, yeah and for me it's
southern comfort.
Can't even smell it now we'reaging ourselves yeah, exactly a
little bit so let's get intothat behavior aspect and how we

(11:06):
can help dogs with the behaviorissues and how powerful nose
work is you had mentionedearlier.
You know it's such a naturalbehavior.
You know, obviously smellingstuff for dogs is a naturally
occurring behavior versus someof the other activities which
may not be in their naturalrepertoire that we could be
incorporating in an aggressioncase.
So how would you start, like iflet's say and you've done this

(11:29):
a lot with dogs that havereactivity issues like what's
the first thing to start with?
Where do you start with?
Like how can we help this dogfeel better about the
environment they're in?

Speaker 2 (11:37):
Right.
So with dogs that havereactivity that's usually in
many cases have anxiety issuesas well is the first thing is
safety.
The environment should be setup where they can feel safe,
which is one of the hallmarks ofwhat NACSW does, where it's one
dog at a time, one dog works ata time.
All the other dogs in the classare crated, or if you're doing

(12:00):
a private lesson it doesn'tmatter.
The dog's by himself anyway.
So that's the number one ismake sure that that environment
is safe for the dog, because ifit isn't, it's going to be tough
.
So we've had cases where thedog at our facility too much,
too much noise, too much.
They can't handle it.
So we then do a private lessonbecause the class setting might

(12:21):
be too much.
So it's very dog dependent.
So you'd have to kind of see.
So the first thing set up asafe environment for the dog,
and safety is important becauseif the dog is too anxious, a lot
of dogs, as some of you know,may not eat.
In an environment that'sworrisome or stressful, they
won't eat, and so that's whywhen we start them, we start

(12:43):
them on food so hopefully theyfeel safe enough to eat, because
if they don't, then you have toback it even more.
But let's say, theenvironment's safe, they feel
good about it, they're eating.
Then we start with food in a box, because it's pretty
straightforward In an open boxyou put the food down in the box

(13:03):
, the dog goes and finds it andjust get him acclimated.
The food down in the box, thedog goes and finds it, and just
get him acclimated to findingfood in the box, because it's
not the norm, for most dogsaren't looking for food in the
box, right?
So you put that Once they startgetting comfortable with easy,
you put it down, the dog goes toit, so on and so forth, very
independently of the handler.
The handler is not reallyinvolved at this point.
The dog's just going out thereand looking for it.

(13:25):
Then you can start moving thebox and putting it where the dog
has to actually look for it.
So because, if you think aboutit, our dogs don't really have
to look for food.
They just have to go to thekitchen and go.
Hey, it's mealtime, let's dothis right.
They're not hunting for theirfood like they would in a more
rural setting or an environmentwhere there are free roaming
dogs, that they find foodwherever Our pet dogs don't

(13:48):
really have to do that.
So it's interesting how somedogs some dogs are like I should
hunt for this.
Why should I look for food?
It's usually, usually it'savailable all the time.
So getting them looking for itand working out that, bringing
in that natural ability to huntand search for food, really

(14:09):
important.
So that's why we start them onfood and we get them problem
solving, which helps buildconfidence and autonomy and it
helps calm it down.
So if you want to start, that'sthe easiest way to start.
You can start them in your homein a quiet setting.
You can do a little bit of, youknow, just introducing that to

(14:29):
them and then as you progress,you can make the scent problem,
you can move the food and youcan make it a little harder as
you progress.

Speaker 1 (14:35):
That so I want to just jump back to a few
different things, just toclarify that when you say box,
it could be anybody's likeAmazon cardboard box with food
in it.

Speaker 2 (14:47):
Okay, absolutely, and some dogs may have
sensitivities to the box moving,so you could just use a lid
like a shoebox lid, even thoughI don't know if they make those
anymore.

Speaker 1 (14:53):
They don't detach anymore.
I think, exactly, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (14:57):
So, but you could put a low profile box and you could
put that in there.
It doesn't matter what you putit in, as long as the dog's
comfortable putting his head inthere, because you might have
dogs that are a little sensitiveto not wanting to put their
head in the box, so you canadjust it, it doesn't matter.
Okay, the goal is for the dogto go out and look for the food
and hunt for the food.
That's the first part of it.

(15:19):
That is the most important partright, getting the dogs,
because that's what builds adog's autonomy and confidence
and problem solving skills,which then really progress into
helping with anxiety and helpscalm the brain and it kind of
gets them in a more naturalstate, if you will.

Speaker 1 (15:37):
Do you also talk to your clients about contra
freeloading, where the dog ismore likely to do a task that
takes that effort versus justgiving them the food?
So there's been some studies onthis in animals, of course, but
do you mention that Be likethis is going to be better for
your training if we use thataspect?

Speaker 2 (15:53):
Right, absolutely.
And in some cases some of thedogs that aren't really don't
want to work that hard.
You can definitely feed themtheir breakfast that way.
You know, have to hunt fortheir breakfast and play that
game with them in theirbreakfast.
This is really great if youhave a very active dog, young
puppy that's active and busy.
Having them search and hunt fortheir food in the morning will

(16:15):
give you a nice little middaycalmness, because it does help
calm them down and just givethem that mental exercise that
is actually sometimes moreimportant than physical exercise
, right.

Speaker 1 (16:26):
Mm-hmm, and just to clarify on what it looks like
when we're doing that.
So like if somebody's juststarting this out, when you say
hunt for the food, is it justall in the box or is it kind of
scattered about, or no, no, no,it's all one box right.

Speaker 2 (16:39):
Thank you for clarifying that.
You put the food in one box andyou move that box around where
they have to look for it.
Excellent, Got it Right Becauseearly on there was a People
were putting the food in all theboxes so it was errorless
learning.
Well, it kind of took away thehunting piece of it, right,
Because it was not reallyhunting, because they were just

(17:00):
looking for food.
So the most efficient and kindof kicking in that natural
ability take one box, put food,move it, have them look for it,
eat it.
Put more food, move that boxsomewhere else, put it in there
and move it around.
Excellent so the dog has to findit.

Speaker 1 (17:17):
Okay.
And then one other questionjust to back up to.
We were talking about safetyand the use of food.
So the dog's usually going toeat if they're feeling safe
enough.
What about the cases?
There's just kind of thatfringe, those cases that the
dog's going to eat but not feelsafe.
So they can still be fearfuland be like looking at something
Sure.
So they can still be fearfuland be like looking at something
Sure.
How do you help clients?
Maybe with that fine line,let's say they're still going to

(17:38):
eat.
They're like, oh yeah.
So then we took it outside andwe went to the park and he was
still eating, but something wentsouth on them.

Speaker 2 (17:44):
Yes, well, you definitely want to be able to,
especially for clients like whatthat looks like when they're
eating, if they're eating andstretched out and not really
comfortable going into the box,and that's still not safe.
So you want to look at thewhole dog.
You want the dog happilyrunning and going to the food,
and some dogs aren't super foodmotivated.

(18:06):
So if they're not really foodiedogs but they like toys, you
can do the same thing with thetoy.
Hide the toy in a box.
Have them go look for it.
Have the toy in a box, go lookfor it.
Same, but the look should bethe same.
The dog should look comfortableand relaxed, not stretching to
get the food.
If their body language iscompressed and tense, you need
to back it down where the dog ishappily running looking for the

(18:28):
food, right, okay, and this iswhere.
If that doesn't look like thatin your house, don't go anywhere
else with that.
Got it Okay, that doesn't looklike that in your house, don't
go anywhere else with that Gotit.
And some dogs go really fast.
So at our facility we've haddogs come in.
They were a little worried butby the second or third round
they were fine.
They were able to get morecomfortable really quickly and
do the work, and some don't.

(18:49):
You know, some take a littlebit longer.

Speaker 1 (18:52):
And then, once the puppy finds, or the dog finds,
the box, do you put any kind ofmarker on that?
Or is it just you're allowingthat first activity to happen?

Speaker 2 (19:01):
Yep, you're not marking it, you're not anything.
You could say good dog, whichis technically a marker anyway.
But yeah, don't need to mark itBecause, think about it, the
dog, it's immediately gettingrewarded for finding that box
because there's food in it or atoy, right, it's immediate
reinforcement.
Like they find it, boom, theyget that reinforcement
immediately.

Speaker 1 (19:21):
And we can argue that the dopamine hit happens before
that.
So the activity of going toseek for that box right.

Speaker 2 (19:26):
Exactly right and that's what you want that
excitement to do, that work andgo in and search.
And with some of the dogs thathave had anxiety or have anxiety
or reactivity, that is such abeautiful progression because
you see the dog just blossom soquickly.
Back in the day when I workedwith a lot of the behavior cases
, we tried to do agility andsome of the other sports that

(19:48):
were available.
But agility is a pretty highlyaroused sport.
So for dogs that havereactivity issue or a lot of
anxiety, agility probably wasn'tgoing to be a great option.
So nose work gives them, it'scalm, it's more relaxed, they
progress so quickly in manycases.

Speaker 1 (20:05):
All right.
So now we've got a nicefoundation of how we start with
this let's talk about thatreactive or fearful dog and we
start, we get this nice baseline, we start getting them engaged
in using their nose and how tostart searching for things.
How do we start to transitionand be like how is this going to
help this dog out in the realworld with their issues?
So what would be like a nextstep?
Like you're working with aclient, their dog maybe has some

(20:26):
reactivity issues to, let's say, other dogs out in the world,
and we've got them engaged andstarting to get the.
Both the client and the dog arereally starting to understand
this foundational aspect of nosework.
What's the next step to starttransitioning?

Speaker 2 (20:39):
So the reason we start on the boxes because it's
the boxes are a cue like this iswhat's going to happen.
So I've had a couple ofreactive dogs that when they go
on their walk, so we usually weask the client to say, hey, why
don't you do a little bit ofnose work, couple searches
before you go on your walk?
That helps calm the brain,reduce that anxiety.
So when they go out to do awalk the dog is in a better

(21:01):
state to be less reactive.
Right, not going to be 100%,but it's going to help.
And so that's kind of where Iwould start with a reactive dog.
That's what I've done with afew of my clients.
Let's do some searching prior tohis walk and then you're going
to do all the other counterconditioning things right
Shorten the walk, make sure thatthe dog is comfortable, do all

(21:23):
the other things that you woulddo for this reactive dog, and
then add this part of the nosework and then go for a walk.
And this is measurable, right,because you should see the dog
be less vigilant and morerelaxed during his walk.
You should be able toimmediately see that, and if you
don't, then we may not be readyfor that long walk or, you know

(21:45):
, you might have to shorten it,go to a couple houses and then
come back, do a little bit morenose work and things like that,
because this is prettymeasurable.
You should be able to see thedog kind of be more relaxed as
they go out for their walk.

Speaker 1 (21:57):
And do you put anything on cue where you're
saying go sniff, or anythinglike that, like, what does the
setup look like?

Speaker 2 (22:03):
Yeah, After a while, because for some dogs you can
take it on the road.
You can take a few boxes, go tothe park, do the same thing.
The dog's going to be like, oh,we're doing this sport, and you
could say go sniff, find it,whatever it is.
At some point you can put a cueon it.
You may not go for walks, youmay just go to another area

(22:24):
where there might be some dogsin the distance and do some nose
work.
The boxes are just a big cue inthe beginning.
After a while you can condenseit down to a small container
with food to make it easier fortransport, once the dog really
understands what the game is.

Speaker 1 (22:36):
So it's almost serving as like a safety cue, in
a sense that the dog's likewhen you see this box, we're
going to keep you safe and youcan engage in this activity.
You feel safe with.

Speaker 2 (22:44):
Yep, and it keeps their brain occupied, working on
solving those problems, whichthen helps them.
Being so vigilant on the otherdogs isn't such a priority,
right?
I'm not going to say they'renot going to still be looking
around and checking it, but theycan get back to work and they
can let that go and that's whatyou see and that's so nice,
right?
I've had some extremelyreactive dogs.

(23:06):
They could be searching a dogcan pass a few feet away and the
dog just goes.
He may acknowledge it, buthe'll go back to doing his thing
, which is amazing, and it justreduces all that reactivity.
And then going back and forthin a class, going back and forth
, you should see that decreasein reactivity, going back to
their crate or whatever it is.

(23:26):
So it's pretty marked.
Like I said, when you do thenose work in the house and you
take them out for a walk, thedog should be looking a lot more
relaxed Not a lot, but morerelaxed than he was before.
Right?

Speaker 1 (23:37):
Tracking the data through body language and
behavior.
Yeah, In other words, the setupis the dog on a long line or
just on a six foot with theclient.

Speaker 2 (23:50):
Well, if you're just working on the reactivity piece,
I recommend a six foot just tokeep the dog from making bad
choices, especially if you'reout and about.
It's okay At some point.
Once the dog's more comfortable, you can probably transition to
a longer line.
But with dogs that havereactivity anxiety, you still
have to provide some kind ofsafety for them, that support
being on leash even thoughyou're not really guiding them.
They need to know that you'rethere.

(24:10):
For some dogs that's very, veryimportant.

Speaker 1 (24:13):
So staying close to the dog, but I'm assuming on a
loose leash we're just followingalong where the dog goes, so
we're not putting any tension onthat leash.
Right, right, right.

Speaker 2 (24:21):
So the dog knows you're there, but not worried
that he's all by himself.
And all that Because in a classsetting we do a lot of off
leash but it's usually a smallerarea, it's off leash, so the
dog has that autonomy.
But outside can be moreanxiety-producing being outside
and seeing other dogs.
You want to make sure the dogunderstands that the safety
thing is still a thing.

(24:41):
You have to keep them safe,even though in-house or in a
training scenario they can beoff-leash just fine because
they're safe then.
But outside if they're stillgoing to be worried, especially
if you live in a very busy doggyarea, you want to make sure
that the dog knows, hey he'ssafe here, it's not going to be

(25:03):
a problem.

Speaker 1 (25:03):
Okay, I'm following along, I think pretty nicely
here.
So I want to talk about let'suse a mock case.
We've got, let's say, a dogLabrador.
Let's use a Labrador namedJimmy.
Jimmy has issues with otherdogs at a distance and the
client lives in a nice apartmentacross the street from this
beautiful park they can go toand practice.
So they have the space, so theydo some baseline stuff in the
home to get that sort of initialcalmness you were talking about
in the home.

(25:24):
So they do a little bit of nosework first at home, start off,
and then they go to the park inthe next 10, 15 minutes later,
right, and they're working withJimmy, but they bring the boxes
or their food containers withthem.
So what does that look like inthe setup there?
Do they bring the containersand leave them?
Because you don't want to bringthem too close to other dogs,
of course, because that could bea problem.

(25:45):
Yeah, and do you like hide them?
Do you make it?
How difficult do you make itfor a dog like Jimmy?

Speaker 2 (25:58):
No for a dog like Jimmy that's got reactivity.
When he comes out he should seethe boxes and know immediately
this is what he's going to do.
He's like, oh, we're going todo that game thing instead of oh
, there's other dogs oreverything else.
So you definitely want that tobe pretty obvious.
Like, yeah, we're going to dothat game thing in the beginning
and then, once you put a cue onit, then the boxes aren't as
necessary right for the dog.
You can say, oh, go, sniffwhere it's hidden, more hidden,

(26:19):
and they have to work a littlebit harder for it.

Speaker 1 (26:21):
Do you differentiate, like if they're looking for
that actual box, versus so likego find or go sniff?

Speaker 2 (26:26):
Yep, go find, go sniff, seek.

Speaker 1 (26:29):
You could use whatever, so I should clarify,
like if you are using the boxes,we should use a separate cue,
or no same It'll be the sameIt'll translate Yep.
Even if there's nothing to gofind, it's just the dog's
engaging their nose in thatenvironment, right.

Speaker 2 (26:44):
Yeah, go sniff, it's like I'm looking for whatever.
And then eventually, if youtransition to smaller containers
or a smaller area, they'regoing to understand that, hey,
when I hear this cue, go sniff,I'm going to be looking for
whatever it is.
And I'll be honest, for dogsthat have reactivity issues, we
keep them on food a very longtime and it's very dog dependent

(27:05):
.
Sometimes people get into thesport and they want to continue
doing it, which is awesome, butI want to make sure that dog is
absolutely comfortable and feelsafe, no matter what environment
they go in looking for whatthey're supposed to look for
before we put them on odor.
If that's a choosing of theclient, right, if they decide
they want to do that.

(27:25):
Some of the progression is veryquick for some dogs, like jimmy
might be like he's a labrador.
He might be like oh, this gameis awesome because I get to find
food and you might see himbeing able to ignore other dogs
way quicker than you mightanother dog.
So you want to take it on theroad, go to a different place,
go to a PetSmart parking lot.

(27:47):
You can go to the back of theparking lot.
Can he work there?
Can he work where he sees a dogin the distance.
If a dog happens to pass 10feet away, can he handle that
before you change too much?
Because people tend to want tomove too quickly and
unfortunately the dog's stilllearning the game, because some
of the dogs will get it rightaway.

(28:07):
They'll be like this is awesome, they'll just go and their
activity really diminishes.
But there's other dogs thathave a little more difficult
time and that's not to say we'vehad dogs that need meds,
behavioral meds and all thatbecause they were still too
anxious.
Nose work is a tool forreactivity and anxiety.
You still have to do all therest of it.

(28:28):
You might have to put them onbehavioral meds.
You might have to do all theother things to help the dog
feel safe, to go on and do thework right, to help the dog feel
safe to go on and do the workright.

Speaker 1 (28:38):
Yes, and that kind of has me segwaying into what's
working behind this, the sciencebehind it, so I'd love to talk
more about that, but we're goingto take a quick break to hear
from our sponsors and we'll beright back.
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I have a very special offerthat I am announcing again just
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(28:59):
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All right, we're back with NancyReyes.
We've been talking about nosework and helping dogs that do
have reactivity or aggressionissues, and what can we do?
How can we use the power of thenose to do that?
And we were just talking aboutthis sample case, Jimmy, where

(31:05):
it's a black lab, or I justassigned black lab to the dog I
have black lab.
So we were helping Jimmy and hegoes to the park and he's
starting to engage his nose andlet's say we do see a nice
reduced frequency of reactivity.
He's feeling more comfortable.
We're assessing that throughbody language and physiological
signs.
Let's talk about what's reallyworking there.

(31:27):
What's happening?
Is it the increased enrichment?
Is it classical conditioning?
Is it some particularassociation?
Is it desensitization?
How do you describe reachingthe goals that?

Speaker 2 (31:37):
the client's looking for Right.
So we are classicallyconditioning the dog right.
I know there's a big movementof people wanting to start with
operant conditioning on scentwork, but it's not the same when
it's classically conditioned togo find food and you make that
association if you decide to goon odor.

(31:58):
Odor brings a food that seemsto be so much more powerful for
the dog and it processes in thebrain a little differently than
operant.
Because here's what thechallenges with operant and
operant conditioning thebehavior will bring a click or a
marker.
You know when you see thebehavior happen right, a sit or

(32:19):
a down or whatever In nose work,are you sure the dog is
actually sniffing and are youclicking when the dog is
actually sniffing or is the dogdoing something else?
Because you can see, withclicker training sometimes you
click and you're like, oops.
The great thing about clickertraining is you can fix it.
But in stent work it's like ishe inhaling?

(32:42):
Is he sniffing that?
Is he sniffing the tin?
Is he processing that thingthat it's in?
What is he really processingwhen you're marking that
behavior?
Because you're marking it, notthe dog, right?
Not that it doesn't work forsome of the dogs that are very
drivey, which is some of thedetection.
People use it but dogs aresuper, super drivey and it's not
a problem.
But for our pet dogs they'repet dogs.

(33:04):
They're purposely bred to beour pets, not detection dogs.
So it's difficult to use someof the methodologies of the
detection world to work, toapply it to our dogs, because
our dogs don't live the same waythey do.
Our dogs live in our homes.
They sleep on our beds.
There's a whole different waythat we live.
The detection dogs aredifferent.

(33:25):
So the classical conditioning Ihave found over the years I
have helped tons of behaviorcases with nose work as well as
the dog sport.
We have produced many, manyelite champions and doing it the
same way.
Cause I know some of the thoughtprocess about operant is that
not starting them on food isthat they'll false alert on

(33:47):
distractors, which isn't true atall.
That doesn't happen when, ifyou do it properly in the
beginning, we were on food for ayear long time.
We don't do that anymorebecause it's most of the dogs
can move along faster if they'reinterested in the sport.
But we were on food for a longtime, never had problems with
false alerts on distractors.
I mean I have a very, veryhungry black lab that she loves

(34:10):
food, loves food, but sheunderstands that only odor
brings food.
So if there's food in theenvironment doesn, she
understands that only odorbrings food.
So if there's food in theenvironment, doesn't matter,
only the odor will get her food.
If you make that clear, it'snot a problem.
So with classical conditioningit's a more natural learning for
the dog.
It really taps into whatthey're bred to do and it just

(34:32):
makes it cleaner for the dogs tounderstand what you want.

Speaker 1 (34:37):
So, going back to Jimmy, if we're using classical
conditioning, what I'menvisioning here is that, jimmy,
this park where the dogs are,predicts the scent work or the
nose work.
You're going to be finding foodhere yeah.
So food happens in thisenvironment where the other dogs
are, yeah, and then just to.
So I can clarify this theoperant component you're talking
more kind of classically fordoing nose work, work for lack

(35:00):
of a better term.
And so what does the operantlook like?
Is it actually puttingsomething on cue, like a
particular?
behaviors we're looking forrather than just naturally
allowing the dog to sniff.

Speaker 2 (35:11):
Correct Right For operant.
You put the odor out, the dogputs her nose on it.
You click and reinforce that.
Okay, that's kind of yeah, gotit.
So that's kind of how they.
Hey, they do it.
But my behavior cases clientswith aggression or anxiety.
Those dogs never have to go onodor.
They can be on food forever.
It's not necessary.

(35:31):
If they're not interested indoing the dog sport, there is
really no reason for them to goon odor.
None Right.
If they're not going to do thesport, just use food.
It'll be fine.
It's like not everybody wantsto do it.
If you decide to do it later,that's fine too.
But people may not beinterested in doing that.
They might just want the dog tostop pulling and lunging at

(35:52):
other dogs.
They just that's all they want.

Speaker 1 (35:54):
Right.
I think it depends on whatwe're looking to do in the
process, so the procedure.
So, if we're looking for aclassical conditioning procedure
, food's probably going to beyour best bet, although of
course, we could do that with asense, but it adds extra steps.

Speaker 2 (36:06):
Right.

Speaker 1 (36:06):
So, with regards to good, powerful, classical
conditioning, the food seems tomake the most sense.
No-transcript nose work we'redoing at home.
What could be happening thereif that's part of the package of

(36:28):
saying, okay, let's do thisfirst before we go out into the
real world on that day for thatsession, for instance, Before we
go to the park, we're going todo a little nose work at home,
warm you up.
What do you think is happeningthere as part of helping this
overall process?

Speaker 2 (36:41):
Well, the way odor is processed in the brain.
It passes through where theymake the memories right, the
dopamine, and then it goesthrough the part of the brain
that makes memories.
So you want those memories tobe very positive and powerful
for the dog.
Because it is a dopamine hitevery time they go out to do
searches.
It makes them feel good.
And then being around the otherdogs or it doesn't matter,

(37:04):
there's a feel-good feelingaround that, that being around
in that environment, right?

Speaker 1 (37:08):
And so then they're kind of processing these
associations, I guess we cancall them and then they start to
pair Okay, when I'm smellingthis particular odor which is
the food, well, we can arguefirst that we get that calmness
and then we bring that outside,so we get that classical
conditioning.
But what about desensitizationhere?
So we could argue okay, we'rejust at a distance from dogs,

(37:33):
whether the dog is doing nosework or looking up at the sky or
doing agility or play way youknow, just playing with the
owner is all of those we couldbe exposed.
Or even bats, where we're justexposing the dog at a distance
to their particular triggers.
Do you think there's thatelement of desensitization when
you're doing the nose work aswell?

Speaker 2 (37:48):
Yeah, I always recommend for the reactive dogs
we do a lot of counter conditionand desensitization first
anyway, just to have those,especially if they're coming to
classes.
At my facility the handlersneed those tools right.
So we use a lot of Suzanne'sauto check-in, the relaxation
protocol, all those things.
We put those in place right.
So we use a lot of Suzanne'sauto check-in, the relaxation

(38:08):
protocol, all those things.
We put those in place first.
Then we add the nose work.
We have found that combinationof tools is work best for us.
Suzanne's auto check-in is avery powerful tool.
We use it for everything.
Anyway, we use it for puppybasic everything.
It's our mainstay of what we doat 4U Canine and the relaxation

(38:31):
protocol for dogs to learn howto just relax and do nothing.
Because a lot of thedesensitization that I see with
reactive dogs is a lot ofactivity.
Touch this that a lot ofactivity which increases arousal
, which is counterproductive tohaving a dog be calm around
other dogs.
So a reactive dog class, forexample, Suzanne always used to

(38:54):
say should be boring.
There shouldn't be a lot ofexcitement happening.
It should be dull, it should bethe dog can see another dog,
can be around another dog andnothing's happening.
That should be a goal.
You shouldn't have a reactivedog class where dogs are just
going off all the time.
I mean, the first time, firstclass can be very exciting, but
after that it's all being calmand relaxed around other dogs.

(39:17):
So these are the tools we usefor our reactive dog classes.
Right, we do auto check in.
We do it virtually, so they doit at home, so they have the
tools when they come in.
So when they come in theyalready have that and then we
introduce, we give them all theother tools you know the Leslie
McDivitt's one, two, three, theup-down game, things like that

(39:37):
as well so that they have thosein the case of an emergency.
But to make a lasting internalchange, the auto check-in,
relaxation and the nose workseems to just bring it all down
for the dog and they seem to bemore relaxed around the other
dogs, seeing another dog andbeing around another dog.
Obviously there are cases wheremedication is got to happen.

(40:00):
They need it.
So we do a lot of that work upfront before we introduce the
nose work so that it's effective, because if you do it too soon
before they have all those otherthings in place, it's not going
to be as effective because thedog's still going to be pretty
worried about the other dogs andall that stuff.

Speaker 1 (40:16):
So let me summarize this from my own brain.
For me it sounds like such agreat bang for your buck,
meaning you're getting so manybenefits in one exercise or kind
of like this.
So, like for Jimmy, we'remeeting his needs, you know,
because he's a lab that likesfood.
That's like a breed specifictrait, which is kind of silly to
say because it is a lab.

(40:36):
But enrichment is really what Iwas thinking of.
Something we didn't kind offocus on as much yet is the
enrichment components.
You're meeting needs, you'reproviding enrichment, you're
providing safety.
We're doing classicalconditioning or classical
counter conditioning,technically, if we're exposing
the dog in those environmentsand it's paired with food.

Speaker 2 (40:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (40:55):
And we are also doing desensitization if we're doing
it at a distance and the dog'slike, okay, these things are
around an environment, butthey're typically provocative
stimuli, so we're exposing thedog to those things and we're
doing a calming exercise that isless arousing than other things
.
So, especially for dogs thathave arousal issues, this can be
really super helpful.

(41:16):
So did I do a good jobsummarizing Perfect?

Speaker 2 (41:20):
Absolutely, because I think people are looking for
that wow factor.
Wow, this is when you have areactive dog.
Wow should not be ever whatyou're looking for.
You should be looking for.
He's calm, he's relaxed aroundthe other dogs, because being
aroused around the other dogs itjust it's like some dogs have a

(41:40):
longer fuse than others andsome dogs it's just they don't
need all that arousal.
And I think people look, youknow that's all that activity.
I remember I had a client thatwent to another trainer on a
reactive dog before she came toour reactive dog class and she
was doing touch and spin and allthis activity and I'm like, oh
my God, that is exhausting,first of all for the dog, second

(42:02):
for the handler.
Having to keep the dog busy sothat he ignores all the other
dogs, that is wow hard for mostpeople.
It is almost impossible for apet owner to sustain that.
It's hard.
So teaching the dog thatsometimes nothing's happening
and there might be a dog, thereis okay, sometimes nothing,

(42:22):
nothing happening is good.

Speaker 1 (42:23):
Yeah, it's interesting.
It's kind of like the evolutionof our dog training community
where things because technicallyyou know, look at me, watch me
spin, touch, all of those arebeautiful alternative behaviors
and when they've been trainedwith positive reinforcement we
can also argue that classicalconditioning is occurring
because the dog's like, okay, Ican do these behaviors when I
see those other dogs in the parkand so it's reinforcing for the

(42:44):
handler because the dog's notbarking and lunging and having
issues if they're engaging intouch and spin.
So totally understand that.
But I think we've evolved toalso learning that we need to
watch for the arousal levels,even though we might be sticking
with two positive, balancedemotional exercises.
You know it could be fun withyour handler or it could be, you
know, nose work.
But for me, just observing dogsout there in the world and you

(43:06):
see the activities of dogs thatare really not reacting to
anything, it's the dogs that arefree roaming and just sniffing,
using their nose and engagingin natural behaviors, not as you
had mentioned in the beginningof the show, which I loved.
You know where we're going totheir world and if they're in
their world and they're feelingsafe in their world, it's
different than bringing theminto our world and we're still

(43:28):
keeping them safe and stillusing reinforcers.
Sure, two kind of differentthings.

Speaker 2 (43:32):
Right.

Speaker 1 (43:33):
I love that we talked about that.

Speaker 2 (43:34):
Yeah, because it's their world.
They sniff everything.
We're just there to observewhat they observe.
And sometimes coming into thatenvironment is so cool and
that's one of the reasons I lovecanine nose work.
Environment is so cool andthat's one of the reasons I love
canine nose work.
It's just as a competitor.

(43:56):
You get to see your dog work insuch a natural way without any
involvement from you, and theycommunicate with us.
And I did agility for many years.
But nose work it's different,the bond that you build with the
dog because you really get toknow them really well, versus
the other things.
Not that I don't enjoy theother sports still, because I
still do but I find that nosework I get to just observe and
watch, which we don't do enoughof as pet owners.

(44:19):
I don't think I can be guiltyof it too, because I work a lot,
but nose work gives me thatopportunity to say like, okay,
what do you find interesting?
What do you find fun?
What are you looking for?
And there's an additionalbenefit for us, right, you get
to be in their world for just afew moments, you know, during a
class or at a competition.

Speaker 1 (44:41):
And that's just for me such a fascinating thing and
activity is to let's watch thedogs, you know, rather than
trying to get them to engagewith us all the time, and it's
just our job to set those safeenvironments to do those
exercises.
So can I ask you about a recentstudy?
I don't know how recent it is,but there was a study it's
called Let Me Sniff and it wasfrom Durant and Harowitz, kind

(45:02):
of talking about the cognitivebias paradigm.
But it really was kind ofsummarizing, like looking at
optimism and pessimism in thedogs and they did heel work with
some of the dogs in the groupand then nose work with some of
the other dogs.
And they found I think they hadlike this ambiguous bucket
where sometimes would have foodand sometimes not, and the dogs
that they would go home and doheel work and some of them would

(45:24):
do nose work.
And then after two weeks theydiscovered that the dogs that
had done nose work there wasless latency, meaning they would
be faster to go check out theambiguous bucket Because
sometimes there'd be food andsometimes not and they'd be
faster.
So there'd be less latencybetween the dogs that were doing
heel work.
So the summarization was thatthe dogs that had done nose work

(45:46):
were more optimistic in that.
So what are your thoughts there?

Speaker 2 (45:51):
Oh, totally Absolutely.
And again, those two activitiesone is the dog-driven activity
and the other one isn't.
So, if you think about it, ifthe dogs are doing nose work,
they are the ones checking itout and making that discovery of
food or not, versus heel work.
We're telling them what to doand how to navigate it, so

(46:12):
they're waiting for us to givethem that instruction or learn
that pattern, right when in nosework they have the agency to go
check that out.
So there's a confidencebuilding there too, which helps
with being optimistic and morepositive and their world is a
lot more fun, if you will,because they're actually able to

(46:32):
make those discoveries on theirown.
We're not telling them to gofind it, or we can tell them to
go find it, but there's look,there's look what I found.
And that's why dogs that tend tohave anxiety with nose work,
they tend to be a lot moreconfident in the world.
They're more confident to gocheck out things and explore
things versus, you know, beingscared and not wanting to enjoy

(46:52):
the environment.
So that's why it's so importantthat dogs and nose work have
that agency to do the work right.
We're there to support they aredoing all that work, they're
figuring stuff out.
And if you think about it, whenwe figure something out right
and we figure out a problem,it's going to stick.
It really sticks because wefigured it out ourselves, versus

(47:14):
somebody telling us how to dothat right.
It's different.
It's a different part of thebrain that gets activated there.

Speaker 1 (47:21):
Yes, the way I wrap my mind around this is like when
we think about cognition andhow humans learn things.
You know, as children and allthrough development, we see
things and we just sort of likecataloging.
Like you know, we have ourphotos in our phone, like we're
taking photos constantly in ourbrains, deciding this was safe,
this was safe, that was not safe, and we're just through our
life taking these snapshots ofcertain situations or pictures

(47:43):
or stimuli With dogs.
It just makes me wonder howmuch that olfactory aspect comes
in and just how powerful is,how much they're cataloging
those things through their scent.
So I remember this scent and itwas a safe environment.
I remember that one.
It wasn't so safe, it just, youknow, it fascinates me thinking
about that and just how muchthey're taking in with their

(48:04):
nose.

Speaker 2 (48:05):
Right.
Well, and the olfactory bulb inthe dog's brain is huge
compared to ours.
Somebody gave a really goodexample their olfactory
abilities are like an eight anda half by 11 paper.
Ours is a postage stamp andthat is absolutely true.
But they can suss out in anenvironment is huge.

(48:28):
That's why it's like oh, hedidn't know the odor was there.
Oh, no, no, he did Right, heknew there was maybe soap over
here and there's a cookie overhere.
And those of you who havehounds I have a beagle and had a
beagle before I told my husbandmake sure that you don't drop
any kibble, because if it getsunder the fridge we're going to

(48:48):
have to move it because she'snot going to let it go.
And sure enough, that's exactlywhat happened.
The kibble slipped under thatfridge, that dog.
The minute she walked in thatroom she goes.
I know where it's at and Ireally want it.
And guess what?
We had to move that fridge toget that piece of kibble out
because she wasn't going to letit go.
Their sense of smell is amazingand how they, like you, said

(49:09):
how they process it if it'spositive or negative.
So I used to always say there'sno way you can mess up nose
work for the dog because theylove it so much.
Oh yeah, there is.
Oh yeah, there is, becausewe're humans, we can't help
ourselves.
We're going to try to want toget involved and so that's how
you can make a very negativeassociation and nose work.

(49:31):
And unfortunately I see thathappen, where the people get so
intense about it and make it notfun for the dog and then the
dog's like I really don't wantto find it because this game
stinks.

Speaker 1 (49:43):
Well, tell me more about what that looks like.
What's the problem?
That can happen.

Speaker 2 (49:45):
So people that tend to want to be more involved like
find it here.
They put a lot of pressure onthe dog doing the searches the
way they want.
Okay, Right Again from thedetection world, that's kind of
how they have to do it.
But they have to do it that waybecause they have to go to
court and prove that this dogwas correct.

(50:06):
Right, we don't have to go tocourt.
And so when we put thatpressure or check here and make
forcing them like somebodytelling you come on, check over
there, check over here, checkover there, After a while I'm
like, well, that's not fun atall, right, it's not fun.
You're like, oh God, and youcan see the dog's drive diminish
.

Speaker 1 (50:26):
Yeah, because that contingency is reinforcement
from the handler for findingthat scent, versus just letting
the dog explore the world.
Right.
Two different things.
Two different things,absolutely.
And we've heard that word,confidence.
I see it often when we'retalking about nose work.
What does that look like,though?
Because the behaviorist mightbe like how do you
operationalize confidence?
Like I don't know when the dogis showing confidence.

(50:47):
And I'd be like how do youoperationalize confidence Like I
don't know when the dog isshowing confidence, and is it
the nose work doing that, or isit just desensitization?
So what's your argument forthat?

Speaker 2 (50:52):
The way I measure it right Confidence, if you will is
the dog's interest and abilityto work independently of their
handler.
For example, if you have a dogthat comes in and they don't
want to be too far away, they'rea little worried.
They're not very exploratory,you know you could see the dog's

(51:13):
not sure about checking thingsout and then after a few
sessions of nose work, thatdog's like hold my beer, I'm
going to go and check that andfind that right.
So that's what that confidencelooks like.
Right, it just looks like thedog's like safety and it looks
different than counterconditioning, because counter
conditioning is still contingenton the handler, right, in many

(51:35):
cases.
In this case, the dog's likeyeah, I know what I'm doing
because they're able to havethat freedom.
So it looks I don't know.
I guess it's hard to put it inscientific terms, but you can
see the dog just like yeah, Ican do this without you.
Versus the counter conditioningone, it's very, still very
contingent on you.
Good distinction, it's verydifferent.

(51:56):
It's like the dog's like I gotthis, just keep up, and they
wait for us to get there.
They tell us come over here andfeed me because I found it.
Versus with the counterconditioning, you're like, okay,
you've got to be there, are youcoming?
There's a lot of other thingsthat the dog needs to have there
to be able to do that.
So, because before nose workthat's what I did is a lot of

(52:17):
counter conditioning and youknow that's that's what we did
then.
That's all we, it's all we had.
So nose work, you see that itjust goes quickly, more
exponentially, and it becomesmore of who the dog is.
I guess it's the dog becomingmore of who that dog is.
Whatever that is, it's adifferent stage of some dogs,
they really come out of theshell and they're great.
And other dogs, you know, theymight come out a little bit more

(52:40):
, but not, you know, everybodyis going to be in a different
place and limited by theirgenetics and everything else
that's there.
So it's not like every dogwould be like whoa, this is
great.
You're going to have some dogsthat are like this is as good as
it gets.

Speaker 1 (52:54):
I still need you to be with me, but I can do this
now better than I could before,right, I would say, though I
would argue that nose work isprobably the activity that
you're going to see most dogsengage in.
Out of any other activity thatwe might use with this kind of
work helping dogs withreactivity and aggression issues
too, because they're going todo it anyways, they're using

(53:16):
their nose anyways.
How we use it to help us is upto the procedure, and that has
me thinking that nose work, outof all the things we might ask
to do, versus, you know, playingcertain activities or engaging
in certain exercises you knowwhether it's a particular
protocol that we're using, it'sprobably most likely for your
clients to participate in thatkind of activity right or versus

(53:39):
asking them to do many thingsbecause it can be fun for them
as well.
It's a fun activity for theclient to incorporate that in
their work with, like, areactive dog out in the park and
we're putting his you know nosework and sniffing versus some
of the other protocols.
Would you agree?

Speaker 2 (53:55):
I would agree.
And the other thing and I knowwe've talked about it briefly is
compliance.
When you have a dog that'sreactive or a dog that has
anxiety the client thecompliance is better because
it's a game and it can get thosekids.
If you have kids or familymembers involved in you know,

(54:16):
hiding the food for the dog andall that, and it just becomes a
whole family thing.
So the compliance is there.
So the dogs tend to progressmore and as a sport, yeah, it's
wonderful.
Dogs tend to progress more andas a sport, yeah, it's wonderful
.
Something everybody can do,whether the limitations of the
dog or the person are there, andyou get to really engage with

(54:36):
the dog and again going intotheir world.
Right.
But for compliance purposes andwe all as dog trainers have
dealt with that or deal withthat all the time this seems to
be if there's kids or families,they tend to really do it
because it's a game and thechildren actually are the ones
that are like we've got to playthe game with you know, fluffy,

(54:59):
and help that dog with thatanxiety and just make it make
him a more confident dog.
Also, those families with youngkids and very energetic puppies
nose work is a game changer,because that mental work that it
takes to do nose work helpskind of bring that puppy energy
down, especially at the witchinghour that we call where the
puppies are getting the zoomies.

(55:19):
Doing a little bit of nose workprior to that not a bad thing
and it helps keep that down.
So, yeah, compliance seems tobe a little bit better in many
cases with the nose work thansome of the other things that we
give people to work on.

Speaker 1 (55:35):
And in that note, if you had one take home message
for everybody listening in rightnow and how nose work can be so
powerful, for let's not justeven talk reactivity and
aggression, but any behaviorissues we're seeing what would

(55:56):
that message be?

Speaker 2 (55:57):
I think the message would be go into the dog's world
, Let them show you what they'redoing.
Let them show you Be a studentof your dog, Because I think
you'll get so much moreunderstanding.
Because I think that's withaggression and reactivity
understanding is so hard.
They don't understand why thisis happening and sometimes just
being a student of your dog isjust.

(56:18):
You'll learn so much more, andnose work really helps us see
that a little more clearly thansome of the other things that we
do.

Speaker 1 (56:25):
Very well said.
Very well said, Nancy.
This has been wonderfulchatting.
Where can people find you ifthey want to learn more about
what you're up to?

Speaker 2 (56:34):
Yes, well, you can go to my website for your canine,
f-o-r-y-o-u-r, the letter K, thenumber nine dot com, or you can
also find me, nancy Q Reyes, onFacebook, or my business page
For your Canine on Facebook andFor your Canine Training on
Instagram, and you can alsoemail me at nancy, at for your

(56:56):
canine, if you're interested ingetting more information.

Speaker 1 (56:58):
And you mentioned you have a course coming out later
this year.

Speaker 2 (57:01):
Yes, I did a course last year.
It was the first inauguralcourse on step-by-step how to
use nose work for reactive dogs.
We've revamped it, we've madeit better and we're going to
offer it again after theaggression and dogs conference
at the end of the year.
I'll have Mike put the link toget on that mailing list in the

(57:21):
show notes.
That way you can join us if youchoose.

Speaker 1 (57:26):
Excellent, nancy.
Thanks so much.
It was really great chattingwith you and I hope to see you
again in the future.
All right, thank you so much.
This was awesome, had a greattime.
It's always a pleasure chattingwith Nancy and I'm really happy
we're able to dive into whatthe dog's nose knows, and I
think we are.
We're really just scratchingthe surface of what dog's
olfactory senses are capable ofand how our further

(57:49):
understanding of this incrediblypowerful sense will help us
help dogs.
And don't forget to head on overto AggressiveDogcom for more
information about helping dogswith aggression, from the
Aggression in Dogs Master Courseto webinars from world-renowned
experts and even an annualconference.
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(58:09):
more about aggression in dogs.
We also have the Help for Dogswith Aggression bonus episodes
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These are solo shows where Iwalk you through how to work
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You can find a link tosubscribe in the show notes or

(58:30):
by hitting the subscribe buttonif you're listening in on Apple
Podcasts.
Thanks for listening in and, asalways, stay well, my friends.
Bye.