Unpacking Canine Neuroscience: Transforming Aggression and Building Resilience with Dr. Melanie Uhde

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
In this episode we're going to geek out a little bit
as we dive into the topic ofneuroscience and why it's so
important in our understandingof aggression.
Melanie Uda joins me and we'regoing to discuss fascinating
topics like dopamine andaggression, something called the
winner effect and fiveconsiderations from a
neuroscience perspective to bean effective dog trainer.

(00:22):
Melanie is a passionate caninespecialist, pioneer of
innovative training programs andeducator.
Her unique approach is rootedin deep understanding of dogs,
encompassing their behavior,neurochemistry and motivation.
Her expertise and research atColumbia University have left a
lasting impact on the field,with 16 peer-reviewed

(00:43):
publications in prestigiousscientific journals such as
Brain Behavior and Immunity inPsychiatry Research.
With qualifications thatinclude a PhD in Natural
Sciences and a Master's Degreein Biology, dr Mellie Uda
continues to push the boundariesof canine research and training
.
Additionally, she completedadvanced studies of anxiety
disorders at Stanford Universityand is a certified AKC

(01:07):
evaluator, further attesting toher dedication to the field.
But if there's one thing shecan't live without, other than
dogs, it's coffee, fiction booksand her loving husband.
And if you are enjoying thebitey end of the dog, you can
support the podcast by going toaggressivedogcom, where there's
a variety of resources to learnmore about helping dogs with
aggression issues, including theupcoming Aggression and Dogs

(01:29):
Conference happening fromOctober 11th to 13th 2024 in
Scottsdale, arizona, with bothin-person and online options.
You can also learn more aboutthe Aggression and Dogs Master
Course, which is the mostcomprehensive course available
anywhere in the world forlearning how to work with and
help dogs with aggression issues.
I also have a wide variety ofwebinars, upcoming courses,

(01:50):
videos and articles, all fromthe foremost experts in training
and behavior.
We are your one-stop shop forall things related to aggression
in dogs.
Hey, everyone, welcome back tothe Bitey End of the Dog dog.
This week I've got a veryspecial guest that I met at a
conference some couple yearsback, I think.

(02:11):
Dr melanie uda is here with usand she is a neuroscientist and
we're going to dive into thattopic today, especially in the
relationship to aggression.
So welcome to the show, melaniethank you so much.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
Super excited to be here.

Speaker 1 (02:24):
Thanks for having me thank you, and and one of the
things we actually chatted aboutat that conference was sort of
bringing the worlds of trainingand science together and why
that needs to be done much more.
And you know we see itsometimes.
But there can be a sort of atranslational wall that comes
between us sometimes where we'retrying to extrapolate
information from the sciences.

(02:44):
But one of your goals is toreally make it accessible and
understandable to folks like methat may not be academics or
know how to necessarily readpapers at the volume that you do
.
So talk a little bit more aboutwhat got you into that and your
background for us.

Speaker 2 (02:59):
Yeah, that's a really good question.
And you know, even just withinthe academic field there is a
subcategory of translationalresearch, because even there you
kind of want to do researchthat applies directly to, maybe,
patients.
This is very different frombasic research.
So that's pretty much what I'vebeen doing right before I

(03:20):
stepped more into hands-ontraining, which was at Columbia
University after my PhD inGermany, and there was really
basic research, some basicanimal behavior in terms of
experiments with rodents, not somuch targeted on animal
behavior, but how do animalsbehave if you manipulate the

(03:40):
genetics and all that fun stuffif you think it's fun?
Back then I thought it's fun.
And then I moved to to hamburgat the institute for tropical
medicine, because my firstinstinct was like, okay, what do
we do?
People who actually suffer fromcertain diseases, how does
whatever we find in animalmodels translate to, you know,

(04:02):
treating diseases?
And that was still too much oflike experimenting with animals
that I had moved to New YorkCity, to Columbia University,
and there it was very much into.
Hey, let's really see, whateverI do, how this impacts.
At the time it was patientsactually suffering from

(04:23):
gastrointestinal diseases.
At the time, was patientsactually suffering from
gastrointestinal diseases?
So, research-wise, this is howit started to be all about the
gut-brain axis.
So more so about how obviouslythe brain works to certain
nutrients and whatever you do,and how it affects also the
gastrointestinal tract and howit affects mental disorders or
how it causes mental disorders.

(04:43):
So I was working with patientsthat suffer from depression,
that suffered from anxiety, thathad fatigue that we all thought
are like just pure mentaldisorders, but again the
research was really based onimmunology and nutrition.
So from there, kind of inparallel, I did some volunteer
work in Thailand Because again Istill wanted to like, okay, now

(05:05):
help the people that are really, really in need or someone that
is in need.
And that was an eye-openingexperience because not only did
they not care what I was doingbehind the walls in my research
lab, they couldn't evenunderstand it, even if they
wanted to, and they also didn'tneed it.
So it was really very, verybasic things that I helped them

(05:25):
do by cleaning up Excel sheets.
And it was an eye-openingtwofold because one I thought,
wow, like now you do this stuffhere.
So much money goes into fundingresearch projects and then the
people that probably couldpotentially benefit the most
because they're the most in need, neither have access or know

(05:46):
what to do with it.
And then the other kind of siteevent that happened at the same
time and this was in 2016, soeight years ago was a lot of
village dogs.
Were there A lot of freeroaming dogs, and even though my
work was research driven, theoriginal idea why I got into

(06:07):
biology was like I love animals,all kinds of animals, I want to
do something with animals andwe have the most access to cats
and dogs.
And there are these dogshanging out there looking at me
and then starting to chase medown and barking at me.
And I'm on my little villagebike, you know, going to this
research lab in the junglealmost, and I didn't know what

(06:30):
to do with these dogs.
I didn't know how to read them,I didn't know if they're going
to attack me or not, if theywant to be friends with me, if
it's territoriality.
And that was the secondeye-opener because, again, just
because you think you understanddogs or just because you think
you've researched them for atthat time, 12 years, doesn't
mean that you know exactly whatto do when you're in real life

(06:52):
scenario, real life situation,where a dog chases you down.
So I thought this has to stopEnds here, not in Thailand, but
back in New York, where I thencompletely quit academia.
So that was kind of coming alltogether.
I was like I don't want to dothis anymore, I want to be more
hands-on stuff.
So I kind of had to supportthat transitioning by going

(07:15):
quickly for a very short timeinto corporate world and while
I'm setting up.
I was setting up my dogtraining, canine education kind
of business, and then six yearslater this is where we are now
with all the things that I hopeI can bring to the public and to
dog lovers and enthusiasts.

Speaker 1 (07:36):
You've got me wanting to now dive into a hundred
different topics and I'm notsure where to start.
Sure where to start.
You've dived right into some ofmy favorite things.
You know talking about streetdogs and natural behavior that
we might see at differentenvironments.
You know whatever's natural tothat environment, I guess, but
also you know the neuroscienceof aggression as well.
This is a shout out to yourwebsite, because there's so many

(07:57):
great articles and blog poststhat do exactly what you're
trying to do is, you know,really extrapolate the science
and make it easy for folks likeme to understand.
So definitely appreciate that.
So check out Melanie's website.
I'll leave a link to that inthe show notes, as usual.
All right, so let's, let's kindof start with the easier stuff,
in a sense of theneurotransmitters and aggression
, just so we get a baseline onthis conversation, cause I have

(08:20):
other questions I want to ask.
but dopamine, right, that's themost common, or?
Well, I'll let you take it awayfrom there.
What's happening when a dogdisplays aggression towards
something and makes it go away?
Kind of the process there.

Speaker 2 (08:32):
Oh yeah, so that you know this is where it starts,
where I want to go supercomplicated, but probably not
necessarily the best way ofapproaching it.
Because for me, when I hearaggression my brain really jumps
to aggression that is wanted.
So I'm kind of like what isproactive aggression?

(08:52):
A doctor kind of wants to goout and has a goal in mind.
Right, what can this aggression, this aggressive behavior get
me?
And that part is, wheneversomething is very goal-oriented
in that sense to achievingsomething, being motivated to
behave that way, totally linkedto dopamine.

(09:15):
But when achieving somethingmeans getting away from the
threat, so pure threateningbehaviors, because you want to
increase the distance, you wantthis other dog to turn the
corner or this intruder to goaway.
There, it's almost like a relieffrom that threat and that is
the rewarding aspect of it,right?

(09:37):
So whenever, like something, say, this experience is actually
painful because it is driven,the dog gets super startled by
another dog that is lunging.
And the dog is young, it's neverexperienced that, it doesn't
know if it's safe, all the fear,all the stress, all the
threatening processes are beingactivated.
Now the dog is like whoa, Ican't have that.

(09:59):
I'm going to either hide or I'mgoing to threaten back and then
, as soon as this situation isover, it is kind of like a
relieving moment.
And that relieving moment isobviously the reinforcing part
of it, because the brain triesto get back to homeostasis.
And how you get back tohomeostasis when something was
really bad is well, you kind ofbring out a little bit more

(10:20):
feel-good hormones endorphins,maybe dopamine I don't think
there is anything thatparticularly measures that in
dogs or has been measured thatin dogs in those kind of moments
, because it would be reallyreally difficult to say that was
the original motivation forthat behavior.
But again, dopamine andendorphins and kind of thing

(10:40):
kind of play a role in achievingsomething motivated behavior,
goal-oriented behavior.

Speaker 1 (10:47):
And you had touched upon, you know, the difference
between proactive versusreactive.
So let's maybe use an example adog that is and you talk about
this in one of your posts aswell it's like where a dog is
kind of doing it more I don'twant to use the word sport, but
it's, you know versus, like youjust mentioned, like the first,
the young dog experiencingsomething very fearful for the

(11:09):
first time, versus, let's say, adog that is making other dogs
go away from its territory, itsproperty, and it does that
constantly, sort of like on adaily basis.
And so you might argue thatthere's different mechanisms
happening there, or so tell memore about that.

Speaker 2 (11:29):
Yeah.
So one of the very interestingresearches has been a focus
point of a lot of differentfields and studies is actually
rewarding aspects of aggressivebehavior, and that often is in
the context of proactivebehavior.
Proactive aggression, basicallydogs seeking out this kind of
conflict and enjoying it asthey're doing it, and you can
basically say again themotivation here how much is a

(11:51):
dog willing to work to be put ina situation where this conflict
can happen?
So we now know that there is avery, very particular brain area
that has very specific neuronsthat trigger the aggressive
behavior, or at least areinvolved in triggering the
aggressive behavior.
And the interesting part is,yes, they're also connected to

(12:13):
the amygdala.
I'm not talking about theamygdala, it's the hypothalamus,
but the hypothalamus and theamygdala both areas that we know
.
You know, fear-inducing threatreflects.
But you can be aggressivewithout being fearful.
I don't think that is somethingthat is surprising.
We have that feeling forourselves too sometimes.
So what is happening if theamygdala, the fear, falls apart

(12:36):
and it's just the aggressivebehavior?
Now we know in these kind ofresearch studies that mice
rodents.
They are willing to work inorder to get, to be put into a
fighting situation, and there issome genetic part to it, of
course, but also they get a kickout of it, and they get a kick
out of it especially if they winand especially if the other

(13:00):
mouse is a little bit moresubmissive.
So now again, how does thistranslate to dog aggression?
Right, most of the time westill kind of intervene in any
kind of dog fights that mighthappen at the dog park, the
doggy daycare, so it's not likeuntil the end, until someone
wins.
But the act of being aggressive, the act of chasing, pinning,

(13:24):
potentially biting, can berewarding for a dog, and that
might also happen as thebehavior is being rehearsed.
It might not have been theoriginal motivation when it
started out first, but over timeyou're like wait a second, it
actually feels pretty good, Iactually got a kick out of it,

(13:50):
and that also leads toreinforcement, as in I'm going
on a walk because I want tolunge and bark at the dog, not
because I'm scared anymore, butnow I'm really making it a sport
, like you said, and that'sbecause it can be rewarding in a
sense.

Speaker 1 (14:02):
Is that, like you mentioned the winner effect in
one of your articles as well is.
That's, that's kind of whatyou're talking about.
It's so interesting.
Now can we talk about emotionsa little bit too here.
What's going on?
So let's say we use thatexample again, the two examples
we had of the dog that's justexperiencing like a really
threatening thing for the firsttime.
So we might say that you know,the basic emotion is fear.

(14:22):
That's happening there.
But then let's say let's usethat same dog.
Let's say it is the dog goingout and barking and lunging.
Now it's like, okay, I've gotthis down.
I know how to make other dogsgo away.
I know how to accomplish mytask.
The more I bark and lunge, thebetter it gets.
And then they get that wintereffect happening where maybe
they've made contact, whateverit is that they've actually had
this reinforcing property to it.

(14:44):
What would you say?
The emotion is happening atthat point, maybe from an
effective neuroscience lensmaybe the systems like let's
unwrap this a little bit.

Speaker 2 (14:52):
Yeah, I think you would probably call it rage,
almost as the emotional statethat the brain is in, especially
if fear kind of goes away.
Brain is in, especially if fearkind of goes away, and rage
here is really similar tosomeone who's I don't know need

(15:14):
to let some steam out and goesto a bar for the sake of
starting picking a fight andactually getting into a fight.
Like there's some drivingmoments that already puts this
person or in our case the dogalready in a certain situation
or in a certain emotional state.
Now I don't say that it isactually rage, because the whole
topic of emotions in dogs westill don't know exactly how
that looks like, but I think theclosest that we can say or

(15:37):
describe it as is emotions as aneurobiological state where
hormones play a role,neurotransmitters play a role,
certain brain activities play arole and that state whether it's
rage or fear or happiness orexcitement that determines what
behavior follows andunderstanding what the

(15:57):
motivation is of that state.
That explains certain behaviorspotentially.

Speaker 1 (16:02):
But it's kind of like a black box still in many cases
explain certain behaviorspotentially, but it's kind of
like a black box still in manycases.
Yes, yeah, so interesting,cause I'm kind of thinking about
so many other guests that I'veinterviewed on the show and
similar lines of thinking aboutdifferent sciences, which is,
you know, it's so interesting,but it all kind of starts to tie
together when we're talkingabout it and I also want to ask
about when these things arehappening in that sequence, so

(16:24):
the changes in theneurotransmitters during a
particular sequence.
I'll give you an example.
Let's say it is that dog that'snow going out on the streets
and is looking to scare the dogsaway.
In a sense.
Is there's an anticipation ofthat?
Let's say, there's a dog itsees coming down the street but
it hasn't gone to the barkingand lunging yet.
Can you talk a little bit aboutwhat's happening from, I guess,

(16:45):
an anticipatory standpoint, orthe neurochemicals that are
starting to happen, and thenalso after the event, what
happens?

Speaker 2 (16:52):
Yeah, that's probably one of the biggest problems we
have with dogs that tend toreact super quickly with a super
short fuse, sometimes beforeyou as a human even see anything
.
As a handler, you can't prepareor be proactive because the dog
smells something.
Potentially, and in veryextreme cases, as soon as you

(17:13):
take the leash in your hands,the dog is anticipating.
Because we have created apicture for a dog that does not
just include another dog but itincludes going on a walk, being
outside, being outside and myowner most of the time not
engaging with me, being outside,my owner not engaging with me,

(17:34):
and it's daylight being outside,my owner not engaging, it's
daylight, and it's summertime.
All these things create apicture for the dog and it's
like a puzzle piece, the dog'sbrain.
Not that the dog is doing itconsciously, but memory is how
it works.
It's like one piece comestogether, then the next, and
they all fit perfectly and thedog gets closer and closer and

(17:57):
closer to this anticipationuntil just one little wagging
tail around the corner and boom,the dog reacts because it has
been anticipating that kind ofevent all along and that
obviously is the dopamine right,the motivation behind this.
It's if there might still besome fear involved.
You know, we don't know.

(18:17):
I wouldn't say it'severything's black or white.
Cortisol stress, right, doesn'thave to be bad, but activation
adrenaline is up.
So all of these kind of justgoing down the wrong path.
And when we then just startworking on directivity with
another dog and ignore all theseother little pieces, we're
going to have a very hard time.

(18:39):
Because the behavior seems tobe so persistent and consistent,
because we need to account forthe context in which it happens
to and so it's safe to say thedopamine hit is kind of
happening even before the event.

Speaker 1 (18:52):
And so because, logically, we think, okay, yeah,
the dog got relief from thetrigger.
And then we're like, okay, nowthe dopamine happens.
But you're saying it'shappening before it even starts,
before even the behavior reallykicks in to what we can observe
as humans.
Yes, it's happening before iteven starts, before even the
behavior really kicks in to whatwe can observe as humans.

Speaker 2 (19:06):
Yes, it's happening.
I wouldn't say way before, butthe anticipation is having the
biggest boost.
So it's like how we are mostexcited right before Christmas
and then Christmas happens to bea disaster for some because
everyone is like so anticipatoryand then it's not fulfilling
and everyone fights right.

Speaker 1 (19:21):
Everyone is like so anticipatory, and then it's not
fulfilling and everyone fights,right.

Speaker 2 (19:25):
Or the morning of Thanksgiving is when we're the
most hungry and are more excitedabout the meal, right?
So everything right before theanticipation makes us the most
wanting it.
And if the dog actually enjoysit, that's when the dog really
really wants something or goesfor it.
And right after, we often seethat too, and I see you know my
Melanor when she was still veryshe came as a reactive puppy, I

(19:47):
would say, and if she hadmoments where she actually
lunged and barked and everyonecan relate to this right after
the dog is much more likely tolunge and bark even faster.
Or again, even though the dogwould have not potentially
reacted to something without theinitial first event.
And that's because all thesystems they don't just shut

(20:08):
down right after the systems arestill up, especially neurons
that determine aggressivebehavior.
They stay on longer, they'reready to fire again immediately.
And we need to account for this, that if you have these kind of
moments where the dog actuallyreacts and it was really bad,
try to avoid go home.
It's probably the betterdecision than continue walking,

(20:32):
because chances are your dogwill explode even faster and
even easier.

Speaker 1 (20:35):
now yes, yeah, that's a really good argument through
how we as trainers have toreally be careful about the
environment and controlling theenvironment as best we can until
we can resolve the issue right.
It's just, you know, from aneuroscience perspective.
Now it's giving us the detailsof what can happen.
You had mentioned, like thesemental snapshots or these

(20:56):
pictures that kind of are takenin the dog's brain, what they
see in the environment during apotentially triggering or
stressful event, and I want todive more into that because we
have, let's say, the dogs thatexperience a negative event but
it doesn't elicit like traumaticresponses or things that we
might see in trauma in an animalor human.
I'd love to dive into thedetails of what's happening in

(21:18):
the brain there.
So the difference between thatdog that sees another dog's like
okay, I barked at you and it'slike, but we don't see
physiological changes like theawful diarrhea and like
pancaking and like all thetypical signs of really trauma
responses in a dog versus thedog that is actually.
You see those signs.
They experienced something thatis so significantly scary to

(21:40):
them that it has that lastingeffect of trauma.
So can you talk about whathappens in the brain for those
dogs that do experience traumaversus the dogs that were not
seeing the same signs?

Speaker 2 (21:50):
Yeah, that's a good question and I don't know what
exactly causes the difference.
I've seen puppies that wereattacked and one puppy got half
its jaw bitten off, went throughsurgery, went through rehab and
still loves all dogs.
I mean that's crazy.
That's crazy.
You would think, like this dogis traumatized.
And I mean I heard that it'slike, oh man, this dog is

(22:12):
traumatized for life.
I prepared myself to go throughthe whole rehab Nope, not
needed at all.
And then you have other dogsthat get startled because
someone rolled a trash can downthe driveway and it rumbled, and
then now they hate the street,the entire street, right.
So I think for one it kind ofhighlights that every dog is

(22:34):
different.
For one, personality reallymatters and the way whenever,
like behaviors that aremaladaptive show up, it's kind
of a matter of how stressful,how extreme the event for that
dog personally was, and theability to cope with stress, I
think, is one of the big factors.

(22:55):
And again, there's somegenetics that go into this, but
most of the time it's how oftenis the dog being put in a minor
stressful situation to learnthat bigger stressful situations
aren't as traumatic or aren'tas bad?
It's more like a scale right.
There's still some memorylearning happening, even if the

(23:17):
dog doesn't show extremephysiological responses to some
stressful events.
This dog still might have nothad a good time right and it
memorized it, but it doesn'tcause this kind of trauma effect
that we see in other dogs thatbecome now maladaptive in
situations where there isn'tnecessarily a threatening
situation, and I think that's amatter of coping with stress.

Speaker 1 (23:40):
Interesting, and so stress resiliency is something
we often talk about.
It's kind of a hot topic in thedog training world and building
stress resiliency, but likenobody really has a concrete way
of doing that, like there's noblueprint that says, okay, you
do this and this and expose yourdog to that and it's going to
build their resiliency.
So I'd love to kind of get yourthoughts on that, because you'd

(24:00):
also, you know, in one of yourarticles talk about the cost of
constant pleasure and is thatkind of related to stress
resilience or the ability tokind of cope with frustration,
for instance, for not gettingreinforcers?
So let's dive into that alittle bit, yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yeah, I think it's a super fascinating topic because
it just highlights how much thebrain thrives to create balance.
That brain thrives to createbalance In whatever shape or
form anything happens, it'salways about balance, because

(24:34):
balance is what keeps you alivethe longest.
You can't be out of whack inany kind of scenario, and that
includes positive and negativeexperiences too.
Now, in a relatable way, howthe brain creates balance is yes
, dogs love food.
Most dogs are food motivated.
I know there are some that arenot, but they enjoy eating their
treats.
So it's a wonderful, powerfulway to train a dog, to motivate

(24:56):
a dog to do certain things.
That has literallyrevolutionized our dog training
world, because the power of foodis very obvious.
But we all run at some pointinto this problem of well, this
food is not as valuable to mydog anymore.
I have to level up my value formy food.
Now let's think about why thatis.
Because the brain is like thisis a little too much of this

(25:16):
goody, goody, goody.
Got to bring down the value alittle bit.
We balance that out and whathappens is the value decreases
because there's a little bit ofan aversion to it that decreases
the value of that particularfood.
Let's say kibbles right, thedog is like I don't care about
kibbles anymore because thebrain is like this is too much

(25:37):
of this.
We need to balance out ourdopamine spikes.
We can't just get excited everysingle time we see a kibble.
There are so many other thingswe need to get excited about.
We can't waste our dopamine toomuch.
So I was like okay, let's putsome aversion into it, some pain
pathways, some like I don'twant this anymore.
That's like the smaller versionof how we balance that out.

(25:58):
But it can also get to thepoint where the dog expects
reinforcement every single time.
Now there's so much balancingout to do for the dog's brain
that everything is then at somepoint not as pleasurable anymore
.
But we have totally put thedog's balance homeostasis in the

(26:19):
wrong direction and now the doghas such a desire to be
reinforced.
Nothing is as reinforcinganymore.
The dog gets anxious to findthe next kick.
It's almost like an addictionin that sense, seeking out the
next kind of really goodexperience.
And then this kind of it makesit very fragile, and that also

(26:41):
includes how you cope withstress, because the good
experiences are not as goodanymore and the painful,
stressful experiences are evenmore stressful and that you see,
when the dog hasn't learned tonecessarily cope with stress, in
the way that it's not justhere's some treats or here's
some reward, but also you'regoing to be fine.

(27:02):
Let's work through the stresstogether as a team, even though
I don't give you food constantly.

Speaker 1 (27:09):
I love this where this conversation is going,
because I think some of thelisteners are going to be like
what would you do?
So the dog trainer side ofMelanie?
So we've got the neuroscientistside, but the dog trainer side
of you.
If somebody's like, okay, Iwant to do that, I want to make
sure my dog you know I've got apuppy, I'm getting them out in
the world, I'm doing this wholesocialization thing that
everybody talks about.
But I also want to help mypuppy learn resiliency to things

(27:31):
in life without necessarilypurposely, like inflicting pain
or any kind of super stressfulmoments.
Right, most of us aren't goingto be like, yeah, I'm going to
do these bad things to my puppyin the name of building stress
resiliency, but to my puppy inthe name of building stress
resiliency, but sort of thestress inoculation or getting
your puppy out there what aresome things you might recommend?

Speaker 2 (27:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:49):
It's obviously not standard for every dog, but what
would you suggest?

Speaker 2 (27:54):
Yeah, I think this is where nuances matter and I
think this is where goodtrainers come out as amazing
trainers If they see not just.
Oh, I hear stress and my doghas to learn to go through
stress.
So I'm just going to put my doginto a stressful situation.
That's it.
Everything still happens in thecontext of training and you are

(28:15):
still the one who is in control, or has to be in control of the
situation, and it's stillteamwork.
You have to be able tocommunicate with your dog
situation, and it's stillteamwork.
You have to be able tocommunicate with your dog.
Then you can set up situationswhere the dog learns to go
through stress.
So for my maybe I give like anexample, my personal dog again,
my, my Melanoa.
She is very neurotic, veryanxious.

(28:37):
She has a hard time, or had ahard time, coming back to
balance when she wasexperiencing something she has
never experienced before.
So I was working a lot with heron this mental resilience to
stressful situations, comingback to balance when she was
experiencing something she hasnever experienced before.
So I was working a lot with heron this mental resilience to
stressful situations, and thereare three things that I do that
helped her a lot.
So for one, you will see howdifferent kind of nature these
experiences have, but they stillkind of go into the same

(29:00):
category of mental resilience.
So for one, when I actuallyplay with her, so we tug, we
play fetch with the ball and itgoes into a tugging, me being
very conscious of how much Ichallenge her in terms of you
don't get the ball or now I'mgoing to get the ball from you
is totally underestimated.
This is really challenging orstressful for a dog who really

(29:23):
wants the ball and has to kindof adjust by.
I'm fighting back but I alsocan't fight too much because it
still has to be friendly, right.
Or sometimes, when she isreally into it, I cap the energy
by saying before you get theball, go into a down, but very
smooth.
I don't want to wait 10 minutesfor her to go into a down

(29:43):
because she, you know, needs tocalm down.
I want her to go really quicklyinto a down and then she gets
the ball back.
It's like brain jiu-jitsu, it'slike hyperactive going to a
down, hyperactive going to adown, fighting back In two
minutes, five minutes in, she'scompletely exhausted from it.
So that's more like the fun way.
Then she also loves my other dog.

(30:05):
She's obsessed with him to apoint where nothing else matters
.
So for her being able to go ona walk and not playing with my
other dog is also very stressfulfor her.
I don't demand strict, superperfect heel work with my dogs.
I don't think any pet dogreally really needs that.
I think they need to understandhow to not pull on the leash

(30:27):
crazily, but they don't have tohave this perfect, you know,
right by my knees kind of thingor at least my dogs don't.
But she still, you know, has towalk with me and sometimes my
other dog is in front of me,sometimes behind me, and she
still kind of has to engage withme and still have fun with me.
So that's very stressful forher too and I set that up very
consciously.

(30:48):
And then the third thing is andthat's really in the context of
touch, desensitization andhandling because obviously there
will be some vet visits therehad been some vet visits
anything related to muscletraining, holding still being
touched, anything related tomuscle training holding still
being touched.
Even though she doesn't want to,she has to work through my

(31:08):
holding, her through my grip,for one second longer when I
realized she gets to her limitjust one second longer holding
still before I release her.
That has created so much mentalresilience and her being able
to not freak out and startpacing, because for her the
first response is pace, pace,pace, pace, pace.
You know, I'm stressed so forher to be able to hold still

(31:31):
even though everything insideher says move, that has helped
her too.
So queuing in hold, holdingstill me kind of lifting her
tail, touching her paws, allthese things, and then she
starts wiggling a little bit,it's like I don't want any more,
you know, and it's just onesecond, two seconds longer, then
I release her has helped a lottoo.

(31:52):
So and that's different forevery dog, right, some dogs
don't care about these things.
So finding things that theydon't like that you have control
over, and then work up to itincrementally, little by little,
will really really change themental resilience.

Speaker 1 (32:06):
So that was a long answer no, I love it because you
cover what's so important in inall of these relationships is
the trust aspect your doglearning to trust you and
working as a team through thesestressful moments where they can
trust you that you're going toguide them through the process.
I think it's such an importantaspect of it because you know,
let's face it, we have new petguard.
Is it confused?

(32:27):
Oh, what does that mean?
Socialization, what is stress?
Inoculation it can be all theseinteresting terms that aren't
concrete, but the nuances, butif you learned that trust there
and the dog trusts you, that'sreally the most foundational
aspect of it when we think aboutit.
Right?
Yeah, so we're going to take aquick break to hear a word from
our sponsors and when we comeback, I would love to talk about
the element of pain in positivereinforcement.

(32:50):
Hey friends, it's me again andI hope you are enjoying this
episode.
Don't forget to join me for thefifth annual Aggression and Dogs
Conference, either in person oronline, from Scottsdale,
arizona, from October 11th tothe 13th 2024.
This year's lineup includesmany incredible speakers,

(33:11):
including Dr Clive Wynn, drJessica Heckman, emma Parsons,
sarah Kallnice, lori Lawless,carmeletta Ofterheide, jess
Feliciano, dr Amy Cook and manymore.
Head on over toaggressivedogcom and click on
the conference tab to learn moreabout the exciting agenda on
everything from advancedconcepts in dog body language to
working with aggression inshelter environments, to genetic

(33:33):
influences on behavior.
Dr Amy Cook will be bringingher entertaining and energetic
personality to the grandreception and cocktail party,
which, by the way, will be livestreamed as well as in person,
and, as usual, you'll find awonderful, kind, caring and
supportive community at theconference, both in person and
online.
I also want to take a moment tothank one of our wonderful

(33:55):
sponsors this year Pets for Vets.
Did you know that approximately1 million shelter animals are
euthanized in the US every year?
At the same time, many of ourcountry's veterans are
experiencing post-traumaticstress disorder, traumatic brain
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Pets for Vets founder andexecutive director, clarissa

(34:17):
Black, created a solution forthese problems by rescuing and
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Pets for Vets has a uniqueprogram model that customizes
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(34:38):
behavior and human personality,to ensure a successful,
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Pets for Vets has a positivereinforcement mentality at its
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In addition to helping veteransand rescue animals, clurisr has
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(34:59):
Trainers are able toparticipate anywhere in the US
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Pets for Vets is also seekingnew partnerships with animal
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For more information, pleasevisit petsforvetscom.
All right, we're back here withDr Melanie Uda and we've been

(35:26):
talking about all thingsneuroscience and aggression, and
one of the things I want tojump into now is you mentioned
there's this element of painwhen it comes to positive
reinforcement, or maybe I'm notphrasing it quite correctly, but
that's an interesting talkingpoint, I think, so let's dive
into that.
What do you mean when you saythat?

Speaker 2 (35:44):
Yeah.
So again, there is no black andwhite in how the brain works.
And when we processreinforcement let's just take
the example of food it could bereally anything that is
reinforcing or rewarding.
When we talk about rewards, thebrain makes sure that, again,
it doesn't go too far, where thedog would get addicted.

(36:06):
And we do see dogs that getaddicted to fetch right, chasing
up all these kind of thingswhen it gets too far.
So the brain is very smart inthat way and it's like okay,
dopamine goes up theanticipation.
We love our reinforcement, butsome pain pathways are being
activated almost at the sametime.
And why do we know that?

(36:27):
We know that because that painpathway ultimately is a little
more complex than that butultimately makes dopamine also
come back to the baseline orsupports dopamine being back to
the baseline.
So the dog is available for thenext kind of reward.
And there have been some veryinteresting studies.

(36:48):
It wasn't with dogs, it wasn'tmonkeys, where reward is being
given and dopamine is beingmeasured, spike right before the
treat is being given and itgoes back to baseline.
Spike back to baseline, andthen they stopped giving the
reward.
The anticipation was stillthere, but then the dopamine
tanked even more, because nowdopamine wasn't there to kind of

(37:13):
like okay, I'm ingesting, I'mfeeling good.
Now it's more like the painpathways that took over and
because of the discrepancy ofthe spike and how, how much it
dropped without actually givingthe reward, is the pain pathway
saying, well, that was not good,like what just happened, right.
So we kind of need both tounderstand what is the

(37:35):
expectation, what is reality.
And pain pleasure helps us,helps dogs do that.
So you have to have pain inorder to understand pleasure
better and you have to havepleasure in order to understand
pain better.
And they kind of almostcommunicate with each other and
if something is too much, one orthe other, then it becomes a
problem it's so interestingbecause when you say the word

(37:57):
pain, we're talking about thepathways and not you know.

Speaker 1 (38:00):
yeah, we're not inflicting physical pain to the
dog, but the same pathways arehappening and it's really
important to look at it fromthat angle, from the
neuroscience lens.
When we're talking about thatand there's some other things
that might cause pain, I guessyou would say like social
rejection, emotional distress.
Can you talk more about that aswell?
And even like I think you alsomentioned something like you can

(38:24):
see a reduction in that if aperson's on Tylenol, for
instance, because it's meant toaddress pain, because it's
working on those receptors.
So tell us more.

Speaker 2 (38:34):
Yeah, this is one of an example where I totally
sometimes forget somewhat handson with dogs all the time, what
it means to them to hear pain.
Because for me, from aneuroscience perspective, pain
is we all kind of want to seepain as like a much broader
spectrum than just physical pain.
For one, physical pain, howdogs experience is probably very
, very different than how weexperience it.

(38:54):
Hard to measure, even in humansit's hard to measure and so
subjective, right?
So we don't know.
And two, we also know that verysensitive dogs are much more
likely to see social rejectionas more painful than if there
was a physical pain, even ifthey're like stepped on glass,
you know, and they hurt theirpaws.
We all have seen dogs thatcontinue walking, bleeding

(39:17):
because they don't experience itas painful, but social
rejections say still no, andthey don't look at you the rest
of the day, right?
So the pathways are overlappingand it's not so much physical
versus social versus somethingelse, it kind of all overlaps
and signals what is painsignaling?
Most likely, avoid, get out ofhere.

(39:38):
That's the main goal of this.
And we know how socialrejection feels because we know
that there have been studies Idon't remember if it was with
kids or adults I want to saykids, but I would have been
really cruel to do this withkids, poor kids.
But I think there were somesort of experiments where they

(40:00):
told not to include one kid inthe social game, which sounds
really cool to us and obviouslyI feel socially rejected, and
painkillers that you would thinkis just there to reduce the
physical pain made thatexperience less painful, meaning
they felt less sociallyrejected Again, another way of
saying they're overlapping thesepathways.

(40:22):
And I would say for dogs,especially dogs that are very
much into teamwork and very muchin tune with their owners,
social rejection is probablymuch more dominant or important
to understand in detail thanphysical pain or physical
correction or whatnot.

Speaker 1 (40:42):
Yes, it's so interesting because you think
about, you know, a dog thatexperiences separation anxiety,
you know, and then the loss ofthat social, you know, just the
person walking out of the homecould be such a significantly
aversive event.
Yeah, and how much they would.
Actually, you know, some dogswould do painful things to get
back to them, like going throughthat glass window or trying to
scratch through a wall.

(41:02):
Those kinds of things which wecan argue would be very painful
for us if we tried to do that,but just to relieve the pain of
not being next to their person.
You know it also makes you thinkabout.
It may not be something likethat.
It could be just the moment ofwithholding a treat for some
dogs that it's so significantlya powerful event that those
receptors are in play, would yousay that's kind of a good

(41:25):
statement, or not a goodstatement, but a correct
statement.

Speaker 2 (41:29):
Yeah, yeah.
So whether this is just notgiving a treat, you turning your
back or like you do somethingand then you withhold the treat
and the dog doesn't understandwhy.
It's not just that there wasn'ta treat, it's like you didn't
give that treat and that, forsome dogs, can be very
frustrating and what you thensee is, you know, they might get
a little more bitey mouthy,they might get, you know,

(41:52):
seemingly misbehave even morebecause before they jumped on
you then they don't get thetreat and now they jump even
more.
Like there are nuances to itwhere I see a dog that is really
frustrated and, without sayingin the human context, but
feeling hurt because they didn'tunderstand the situation.
It's not so much that they wantto misbehave even more.
I think it's sometimes anoutlet of that kind of

(42:15):
perception of the situation.

Speaker 1 (42:18):
Interesting and I want to go back to.
You were talking about fetchand some of these other
activities and we can also talkabout drive and motivation in a
moment, but sort of these highenergy activities.
What's the issue with it forour listeners that might be
playing fetch and they're justthrowing nonstop and the dog's
just going and catching the ball.
From a neuroscience perspective, what's going on there that it

(42:39):
could be detrimental to ourdog's behavior or to what we
want when we're asking them todo something?

Speaker 2 (42:47):
I think the biggest problem is that it gets out of
control, so that the dog him orherself has very little control
over and it becomes a matter ofjust throw the ball again.
It's not a matter of teamworkanymore, it's not a matter of
you play together.
Everyone at this point canpotentially throw the ball and,

(43:08):
more importantly, if the ballgoes away, that dog might also
kind of lose his or her mind andcrumble like a cookie, because
the only thing that kept thisdog alive was the ball.
That severity and you know howthis developed Again, not every
dog develops this kind ofaddiction, I think is the the
prevalence of falling intocertain motor patterns that are

(43:31):
very specific to a certain breed.
You know fetching, or likerunning and being agile.
Some dogs, just like you, dothis often enough and it becomes
like oh, really like this, oh,I was born to do this in a way.
And if I was born to do thisand we do, and if I was born to
do this and we do this all thetime, I want to do it even more
right.
And some dogs couldn't careless about fetching or getting a

(43:52):
frisbee, just becauseinherently they don't find it
internally as rewarding.
So that drive that comes inthere and all the motivation for
that kind of play instinctivelymight come into.
Yes, it might be the prey drivebecause I'm chasing after the
frisbee, but it's really kind ofthis motor pattern that has
been activated over and over.
It is so inherent in that dog'sgenetics and all the other

(44:16):
things, maybe there's no otheroutlet.
This is the only time the dogreally gets to run like that,
the only time they get to playlike this.
All these other factors makethis like a really addictive
behavior, which is addiction isnever good right, ever.
This for humans or dogs verydifficult to handle them and get
out of the dog again.

Speaker 1 (44:34):
And that boils back down to the dopamine that the
dog is seeking out and justconstantly needs to meet that in
the brain.

Speaker 2 (44:41):
Yeah, yeah, because now the spike is really high.
But if the spike is really high, it also tanks very low.
And that's the craving of thenext run after the ball to get
the spike again, and then ittanks really low and then
eventually the spike is not ashigh anymore, but it still tanks
really low and then it becomeslike I need to, I need to, I

(45:01):
need to.
So it's really this going fromI want to to I need to that
makes it very addicting or verydangerous.

Speaker 1 (45:09):
Hmm.
So for the listeners probablylike, oh my gosh, I can never
play fetch again with my dog, orI can't do any of these
activities because my dog couldget addicted and stop listening
to me.
What are some things you put inplace?
Because you know, let's say youhave a Malinois, let's say it's
tug, for instance, and we allknow Malis like to grab things
and hold them with their mouth.
So what are some things you putinto practice?

(45:31):
Let's say, you do want to playfetch, but you want to put
controls on it.
You want to control things likethe arousal, the frustration,
all those problems air quoteshere that can come into the mix.
What do you recommend to?
Let's say it's?

Speaker 2 (45:43):
one of your clients.
I think again, balance is ahomeostasis we want to use the
scientific term is really thethe key to all of these, all of
these things.
Right, I play tug and all kindsof bitey things with my Mal and
as soon as she sees that toyshe's like you can see her
saliva coming and dripping, butshe's not addicted to the point

(46:04):
where it becomes unhealthy,because obviously it's not the
only activity we do.
Like I said, there has to be alot of things that start out
with the engagement with mefirst, and you kind of can put
some and I want to say rules,because that kind of sounds too
much like taking away the fun.
But you can put some trafficsigns around the activity by

(46:26):
just saying, okay, well, beforewe do this, let's do this first.
Right, we do this and now we dothat together.
And if you don't want to gothrough, like some food games
with me first or some othergames that doesn't involve the
frisbee, maybe it's not the timefor you to play frisbee right
now and you try again fiveminutes later, right?

(46:46):
So it's just kind of creatingdifferent pictures of what it
means for the dog to playfrisbee.
It's not about the frisbee.
It's about you and I dosomething together and maybe we
interrupt it and do some otherfun stuff in between.
I also would say, if your dogreally likes this kind of
activity, to do that indifferent environments,

(47:07):
different times, not just in theyard, because then the yard
becomes again the kind ofanticipation of I'm only playing
frisbee in the yard.
So whenever you go in the yard,again the kind of anticipation
of I'm only playing frisbee inthe yard.
So whenever you go in the yardyou have to stand back barking
for the frisbee because the dogis put in that situation and
keep that unpredictable for thedog.
That's really it kind of youknow, stay away from oh, my dog

(47:28):
loves it so much.
Although I need to give it moreand more and more and more to
my dog loves it so much, how canI link it to other things?

Speaker 1 (47:35):
that kind of brings my dog back to work with me that
makes sense and I love theactual traffic sign analogy
because you kind of think aboutyou know you give your teenager
a sports car.
There's got to be some rules inplace, right it's a lot of fun.
It'd be a lot of fun, but, yeah,traffic signs, that's a great
analogy, that's a good one touse.
Now we talk a little bit aboutwell, we talk a lot about drive

(47:58):
in these terms drive andmotivation in the dog training
world but they can mean so manydifferent things depending on
who you're talking to, and so Ithink I would love to hear your
definition of drive and ormotivation from a neuroscience
perspective.

Speaker 2 (48:12):
So I think actually it's a good question.
I haven't thought about thistoo much before because I think
for me, coming from what'shappening in the brain, it just
comes again back down to what isreinforcing.
What is the dog seeking?
What is the goal here?
And drive?
I think we often put this intolike hunger drive.

(48:34):
Right, we don't reallynecessarily associate this with
motivation.
But there's this hunger drive.
I must eat and the motivationthen comes in play and saying
I'm motivated to go hunting eventhough I might not be
successful.
But there's this initial hungerdrive, that kind of kicks in
Prey drive or predatory drive.
It's kind of like the samething and the motivation really

(48:55):
is kind of the movementassociated with this.
Motivation equals behavior,equals movement, so it makes the
dog do something to achievesomething in the future.
But then there is themotivation that is maybe
unrelated to certain drives, tocertain motor patterns that you
can teach a dog to be motivatedfor, which is oftentimes

(49:16):
obedience.
No dog comes with a drive to beobedient, comes with a drive to
do certain things, but you canteach a dog to be motivated to
work with you.
You can teach a dog to bemotivated to stay on the place
bed for an hour, right Giventhere's something coming after.
You can teach a dog to bemotivated to hold eye contact

(49:37):
and keep walking next to youwhen there's a trigger.
And this is very little to dowith drive, it's just the
motivation for certain work thatyou put in place.
And that's the beauty of likethe control we have over a dog's
behavior.

Speaker 1 (49:50):
Well put.
I like that.
It kind of makes things easierfor me to understand from that
perspective as well.
Because, again, we were talkingearlier on in the show about
the need to be clear in ourdefinitions, especially when
we're talking from the differentsciences, and one thing the dog
training world does is weextrapolate information from
many different sciences andthat's where it can get a little
muddy because the terminologymight be different depending on

(50:12):
who you're talking to, becausethe terminology might be
different depending on whoyou're talking to.
So that's where some confusioncomes in, because I've heard
people say oh, there's no suchthing as drive, it's all
stimulus control.
So there's different angles, butI think that's because of the
confusion in the terminology Oneof the things as part of your

(50:34):
work.
You also talk about theseeffective dog training
neuroscience factors that you'dlike to have.
So you mentioned these five keyfactors in training from a
neuroscience perspective.
Can we dive into some of those?
So like alertness attentionrests, which is really important
in my book in aggression cases,but let's dive into those.
So alertness attention, what doyou mean by that and how does
that relate to the neurosciencelens?

Speaker 2 (50:52):
Yeah, so it comes from me wanting to communicate
these things really comes from aperspective of making it easier
for dog owners, who may have adog with challenging behaviors,
but also full-time job and kidsat home and a husband or wife or
partner and, hopefully, othersocial activities.

(51:14):
So not everything is alwaysabout the dog, because that kind
of gets you to burn out.
So what can we do to make allthe work that you're already
doing more effective, maybefaster, maybe easier on you?
And none of these things arelike the ultimate solution to
everything, but there aresometimes, again, the nuances
that can make something stick.

(51:35):
And that's all we want, right,like all the training we put in
place, all the work we do andthese five things that I have
put on this blog and this videois really something coming from
seeing owners trying so hard,where I want to say let's just
take a step back Before youstart working with your dog,
check in and see if your dog iswith you.

(51:58):
That's very easy.
Often our living home kind ofphenomenon, right.
It's like, yeah, of coursethere's nothing else your dog
might be interested in right now, but what is it in a group
setting?
Right, if you have reactivitygroup classes.
For some dogs they're superbeneficial, for others not so
much.
How do you know If your dog hasabsolutely no way of just being

(52:23):
with you and doesn't have to bein a sit?
I don't care if my dog isstanding walking on the leash
next to me.
As long as my dog has theability to focus on me, have
attention on what I have to sayto him or her, then you have the
chance of actually learning orlike helping your dog to learn.
Now the problem with, likeputting the dog in the sit or
down or the problem with theliving room kind of training

(52:48):
setups.
We don't want to put our dogsin such a calm state and push
down all the activation thatmight be happening in more
stressful situations, because wedo need activation to learn.
So these two requirements isfocus and activation, adrenaline
and acetylcholine.
There's some other things too,but I kind of think of it like

(53:12):
when your dog is sleepy it's adark room, and when your dog is
activated you turn on the lightin the dark room.
That's activation.
But now you also need to put aspotlight on one thing that you
want to work on, which is you,because you're the one who gives
cues.
That's the focus.
So turning on the light andputting a spotlight on one thing
, that's what you need.
And if your dog is sleepy, ifyour dog is too scatterbrained,

(53:41):
looking all aware, barelyglancing at you, you're just not
in a state of mind where yourdog can learn.
So all you do either takes much, much longer or won't go
anywhere.
So then reset other situation,try again next day.

Speaker 1 (53:52):
What about the making mistakes part of this?
You also mentioned repetitions,of course, which I think most
trainers know how to do, butmaking mistakes that has a lot
of debate in our world too, andthe dog training world should be
errorless learning.
Or should the dog be given theopportunity to make mistakes?
Because you talk aboutsomething the reward contingency
gap so tell us more about that.

Speaker 2 (54:14):
So this is often in relation to, let's say, you
wanted to teach certainobedience commands.
The jump is a good example, butmaybe something more day-to-day
basis like sit down or well,sit down is very easy, but
really anything where the doghas to move too, so some
movement is involved in it tobehave a certain way.

(54:34):
Retrieving all these things,not chewing on a dumbbell,
whatever it is.
The brain's most powerfulability is to learn from
mistakes without having to beconscious about what the mistake
was.
So what does it mean if you setup repetitions, dark jumps,

(54:57):
taking the example of jumps,because it's so easy to
understand the dark jumps overthe lowest bar, doesn't touch
the bar, great, gets reinforced.
Here's a treat Jumps again,doesn't touch the bar, gets
reinforced.
10 times, 20 times.
You lift, you make it higherand higher and higher.
Now the dog jumps and hits thebar and it falls.

(55:18):
That's a mistake.
You don't, just don't give atreat, right.
So now the dog is like wait asecond.
I thought when I jump I get thetreat.
Now, the dog didn't get thetreat, you reset, you don't have
to do anything.
Obviously you can't explainanyways why the dog didn't get
reinforced, but you just resetand let the dog try again, but

(55:42):
the brain is active now.
Now the brain is like what justhappened?
We must change something.
There's something we don't know, but we'll change something and
see what happens, kind of.
Now the dog mightsubconsciously jump a little
higher, push the legs a littlemore away instead of running
against the bar.
Something will change and nowthe dog gets reinforced and the

(56:04):
brain will be like that wasbetter, let's do that again.
And that kind of learning frommistake happens subconsciously
automatically.
If there is an expectation of areward, that is being then
violated.
Right, and that's beautiful.
I think that is wonderfulbecause it kind of speeds up the
process and really lets the doglearn what is expected.

(56:24):
Of course there is the otherway of making the bar higher in
such super tiny small steps thatthe dog never makes it fall.
That would be errorlesslearning, in that sense of like
not letting your dog make anyerrors.
Will you get to the same result?
Probably maybe.
I know, if you're really goodwith this, you can.

(56:46):
But I don't think the dog fullyunderstands what it means.
What is actually the task?
Because now it's just jumping,jumping, jumping.
But it's jumping and nottouching it.
And that's the beauty of littlemistakes Now you can't make.
The error has to becommunicated in the way that the
dog still feels motivated, notwants to avoid it, because now

(57:09):
it's scared of making errors.
We don't want that.
It can't happen too late in theprocess because then the dog is
I don't care anymore, this isfun.
I'm getting too often rewarded.
It can't happen too early inthe process because the dog has
to have a set of rewards first.
But if you time it just right,it's just one or two mistakes

(57:29):
that the dog makes.
You will get really bulletproofbehaviors.

Speaker 1 (57:34):
And these are the nuances we were talking about
earlier too, because we canthink about the dog makes you
will get like really bulletproofbehaviors.
And these are the nuances wewere talking about earlier too,
because we can think about thedog that has very poor
resiliency, right.
So they have make that mistake.
They don't get their reinforcerand that's significantly
aversive or frustrating for them.
Where that can be a problem andthat's the nuances that we as
trainers have to really or thedog's guardian really just

(57:54):
watching for and learning toadapt our training based on that
.
So, so interesting tying all ofthis together, so I could go on
for days talking to you.
This has been reallyfascinating and interesting, but
I want to give people theopportunity to hear more about
what you're up to, or can theyfind you?

Speaker 2 (58:11):
Yeah, so I think everything is some way
accessible, collected on mywebsite.
It's probably the easiest wayto get access to my blog and
find the links to my YouTubechannel and my social media
accounts.
I think whenever you put incanine decoded, I think it
should get you wherever you needto go.
Canine decodedcom is my website, and on Instagram it's canine

(58:32):
decoded, on Facebook it's caninedecoded, it's canine decoded.
Everywhere.
It should come up there in oneway or another.
And then YouTube, also caninedecoded, where I put out not as
regular as I want to, because weall know YouTube and social
media can be quite timeconsuming, but I have a lot more
expert guests coming there too,and everything is translated

(58:52):
into a blog post or whatever onmy website.

Speaker 1 (58:59):
Wonderful.

Speaker 2 (58:59):
Melanie, expert guests coming there too, and
everything is translated into ablog post or whatever on my
website.
Wonderful, melanie.

Speaker 1 (59:02):
Thank you so much for coming on and I hope to see you
again in the future.
Yeah, thank you.
It was a pleasure being here.
It's so great to see the topicsof neuroscience and
neurobiology becoming moremainstream in the dog training
and behavior community.
It's always been my goal tobring together the many
scientific lenses of behaviorand I'm so fortunate to be able
to do that in this podcast.
And I couldn't do that withoutyou and all of the other
wonderful listeners who supportthis show by tuning in.

(59:25):
So thank you for your supportand don't forget to head on over
to aggressivedogcom for moreinformation about helping dogs
with aggression, from theaggression and dogs master
course to webinars fromworld-renowned experts and even
an annual conference.
We have options for both petpros and pet owners to learn
more about aggression and dogs.
We also have the help for dogswith aggression bonus episodes

(59:47):
that you can subscribe to.
These are solo shows where Iwalk you through how to work
with a variety of types ofaggressions, such as resource
guarding, dog-to-dog aggression,territorial aggression,
fear-based aggression and much,much more.
You can find a link tosubscribe in the show notes or
by hitting the subscribe buttonif you're listening in on Apple
Podcasts.

(01:00:07):
Thanks for listening in and, asalways, stay well, my friends.

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