Can Therapy Alone Heal Dissociative Identity Disorder When Demons Are Involved?
In this powerful episode of The Blind Exorcist, I sit down with Christian therapist Patrick Meese to share how we've been working side by side for nine months on one of the most complex cases we've ever encountered—Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID) entangled with deep demonic oppression.
When Patrick faced violent outbursts, blacked-out eyes, and spiritual manifestations in his therapy sessions, he realized traditional therapy had reached its limit. That’s when the client brought me in as an exorcist to confront the spiritual root of her torment. What followed was a groundbreaking partnership—therapist and exorcist combining efforts to bring full healing to a soul fractured by trauma and invaded by darkness.
For the first time, you’ll hear both sides of this collaboration—clinical and spiritual—as we reveal how deliverance and therapy can work together to bring freedom from both psychological trauma and demonic bondage.
📌 In this episode, you’ll learn:
✅ Why 90% of DID cases are misdiagnosed as schizophrenia
✅ How demons hide within dissociative parts and sabotage healing
✅ The difference between human alters and demonic entities
✅ Why therapy alone can’t break generational curses or spiritual strongholds
✅ How integration therapy and exorcism work hand-in-hand
✅ What Christian therapists must understand about spiritual warfare and authority
This client has gone from 23–30 fragmented personalities to real moments of peace, healing, and spiritual restoration through the combined efforts of therapy and deliverance in Jesus Christ.
🔥 A must-listen for Christian therapists, pastors, and anyone facing persistent trauma, having suicidal thoughts, or unexplained emotional torment. If therapy or pastoral care has hit a wall, this episode may reveal the missing spiritual component that unlocks true healing.
Contact Patrick Meese:
Patrick Meese
280 South Oak Street,
Manheim, Pa 17545
Email: patrick@jabbokccc.com
Website: https://jabbokccc.com/
Disclaimer: Links to guest websites or social media are for reference only and do not imply endorsement. The views expressed by guests do not necessarily reflect those of the host or The Blind Exorcist podcast.
💪 Book Your Deliverance Appointment – Join the community of Christians who have kicked out their demons and taken their freedom back!
🛡️ Not sure if you need deliverance? Schedule a free 20-minute consultation.
📰 Get Inspiring Christian Teachings on deliverance – Sign up for my newsletter at www.justind.com. Scroll to the bottom of the home page to join!
📱 Connect With Me – Have questions or thoughts? Tap "Send me a text message" above. 🎙️ I’ll answer selected questions on the podcast!
📝 One-Way Anonymous Communication – This is a one-way text messaging system. I won’t be able to respond, but I’ll read your message.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Blind Exercist.
I am Justin D, your host.
This is episode 32.
Thank you so much, my friend,for coming back and listening.
I appreciate it.
I know so many people listen tothis commuting while they're
working out, they're exercising,or just sitting down with a
(00:21):
coffee with their AirPods in andjust diving in.
People really find a lot ofinspiration from the podcast and
it's a sincere pleasure tobring this to you each month and
if you're new to the podcast,welcome.
Thank you so much for comingand joining us and I hope you
find this episode beneficial.
(00:43):
Joining us and I hope you findthis episode beneficial.
Today I sit down with PatrickMeese, who is a therapist,
highly trained, highly skilledin DID, which is Dissociative
Identity Disorder.
If you do not know whatDissociative Identity Disorder
is, I cover this in severalepisodes on my podcast.
(01:06):
You can scroll down through thetitles and look for DID or MPD.
Multiple personality disorderis what it used to be called.
Now it's called DID, and listento those because those are deep
dives into what it is and allthat.
So I'm not going to cover thatright now, but I do touch on it
lightly in the episode herecoming up.
(01:28):
I have had an amazingopportunity for the past nine
months to be working hand inhand with Patrick me as an
exorcist, him as the therapistwith a client who has DID.
This has been an amazingexperience and I'm so excited to
bring this to you guys so youcan actually see how does this
(01:52):
work.
Now, one of my passions forstarting this podcast is not
only to raise awareness thatChristians can have demons, but
secondly, that it's veryimportant for therapists and
exorcists to work together as ateam to help a client have a
(02:13):
more holistic approach toemotional healing, because
oftentimes people just go totherapy and if they have a
spiritual problem and if theyhave a spiritual problem, demons
therapy is not going to helpthat.
Likewise, if you come to anexorcist and you think you only
(02:34):
have demons, but yet you haveemotional trauma to work through
, exorcism can get rid of thedemons, but it's not going to
help you work through yourtrauma.
Therapy is essential.
So in my personal opinion, ittakes both therapy and exorcism
for a client to be emotionallyrestored.
This episode is definitely foranybody who is suffering in any
(02:59):
way.
You will find inspiration andencouragement in this episode,
but I think, outside of that,more importantly to me is get
this episode to any therapistyou know.
If you know a therapist, apsychologist, a psychiatrist or
(03:21):
even a social worker, I urge youActually let me be a little bit
stronger I plead with you toshare this out to them so that
they can begin to understandthat maybe the reason their
client isn't getting past acertain point, maybe they have
hit a wall and they don't knowwhy.
(03:42):
They've tried all the therapymodels and nothing seems to be
helping the client past acertain point.
Maybe they have demons and youare trying to address a
psychological problem.
Yes, they have a psychologicalproblem, but no, it's not all
psychological.
There's a spiritual componentto it where an exorcist can
(04:06):
assist you and you guys couldwork together.
So again, I encourage you toshare this out to any therapists
that you know.
Even pastors, get this to yourpastor, because oftentimes in
pastoral counseling pastors canonly go so far.
So then they're going to referpeople to therapy and when
(04:27):
pastoral counseling doesn't workall the way, and when therapy
doesn't work all the way, theydon't have any answers.
They're just like, well, we'vedone all we can, good luck.
So there's a missing ingredientthe spiritual component,
exorcism.
Okay, so this is going to be agreat, great episode, super
(04:49):
excited.
You guys are going to get allkinds of information.
I would like to encourage youto financially support the
ministry here.
If you have found inspirationand you have received
encouragement or even educationfrom the podcast, I'd invite you
(05:10):
right now to tap on support theshow in the show notes.
Any amount helps, no matterwhat it is.
It helps me continue to createthese amazing interviews that
you've been learning from andenjoying.
So thank you so much forconsidering that.
I appreciate it.
(05:31):
Last thing I'll mentionPatrick's contact information is
in the show notes, so if you'rea therapist and have questions,
or you're somebody that needshelp and has questions for
Patrick, feel free to reach outto him.
I'm also available.
So, as a therapist, if youwonder how does this work
(05:51):
between exercists and therapists, feel free to reach out to me
as well.
You can go to my website,justindcom, click on contact and
then send me a message.
Now we cover how this worksthroughout this episode, so I
encourage you to listen, enjoyit.
(06:11):
You're going to get a lot ofinformation and everybody out
there that is hurting and thatkeeps coming back for hope and
encouragement, back for hope andencouragement.
There is a lot here for you too.
This is just not for therapists.
Okay, here we go, get ready,buckle up.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Let's dive in, Patrick.
Welcome to the Blind Exorcist,Justin, it is so good to be with
you today.
I'm really looking forward toour talk and thank you for
having me.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
It's a pleasure, and I'm excited, very excited, to
dive into this.
As many of you know, who havebeen listening for a very long
(07:10):
time since episode one, I'vealways said it takes both
therapy and exorcism forsomebody to become whole, to
become well emotionally andrestored by the hand of Christ,
and so a passion of mine hasbeen in this ministry I've said
it almost in most episodes isthat they're not really
professions.
Like Patrick has a profession,this is a ministry, but these
two professions therapy andexorcism need to marry up so we
can help clients together.
(07:31):
It's been a sincere pleasureworking with Patrick, with our
client, for almost eight monthsnow, and we're just going to go
ahead and dive into this anddiscuss this and flush out some
of the details.
And before we do that, though,patrick, I'm going to come to
you and can you tell theaudience a little bit about your
education, where you went touniversity, what you went for
(07:55):
before you started your privatepractice.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Sure, absolutely.
Yeah, I'm a 57-year-old male,I've been married for 34 years,
I have five kids, five grandkids, and I've always been
interested in the field oftherapy, psychology,
spirituality and the mix, and soabout midlife I went back to
Evangelical Theological Seminaryand got my Master's in Marriage
(08:21):
and Family Psychotherapy, whichhas allowed me to really open
myself up to learning multiple,many, many models of therapy and
the integration thereof, and soit's really given me a great
platform for me to open up apractice.
We've done that.
We've had, you know, three,four employees working very much
(08:44):
in the Christian world, andalso with others that aren't
Christian, that choose to come,and I do a lot of work with
churches, with church leadership, with executives and with some
of the, I would say, the mostat-risk people, groups that have
multiple personality disorders,the borderline cluster B, which
is, you know, the histrionic,sociopathic kind of stuff.
(09:07):
So those are the kinds ofpeople that I work with in
addition to families, and sothat's just a little bit about
me.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Thank you, patrick.
Yes, and the credentials areamazing and the disassociation
work that you do, like you arereally into deep stuff.
The satanic ritual abuse, whichwe also deal with and you know,
this is what really brought ustogether guys is a client that
(09:35):
had, or has, disassociativeidentity disorder, who also has
demons from that, who also hasdemons from that.
So this is kind of what bridgedPatrick and I together, and
it's awesome that he is aChristian and I have spoken with
a lot of Christianpsychologists throughout the few
(09:55):
years here of me doing this,because they are interested in
this and learning how to bringthese two things together
because they see it in theirclients.
And this episode is for you,for therapists, also, for people
(10:16):
who are suffering.
This is going to give you someanswers.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Okay, patrick, I have a question.
When someone doesn't deal withtheir trauma, how do you think
that affects them emotionallyand spiritually?
It has energy that itconstantly gives off.
It's almost as if there's apart of you that is stuck in
that time, that is holding amassive burden, and it's usually
a younger part of you that isjust crying out for help.
(10:54):
And so when it's not dealt with, it can show up in many
different ways.
It can get into some verydysfunctional relationships and,
other than that, it can comeout in your health.
It can come out in grief anddepression over time, because
once again, it's giving offenergy that hasn't been
processed or dealt with and itdoesn't go away.
(11:16):
The body keeps the score.
There's a gentleman, besselVandekoff, who talks about that
and others, where we experiencethe trauma somatically and it
actually gets stored in ourbodies.
So oftentimes people will havemedical conditions that can't be
diagnosed or worked with andreally that's a result of the
lingering, unprocessed traumatrying to find a way to be
(11:38):
processed in that person.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Excellent points.
And this is so true whensomeone doesn't deal with trauma
.
I mean it's imprintedpsychologically into the person
plus physically, and so this iswhere people start to
self-medicate.
That I talk about a lot.
And Patrick mentioned gettinginto toxic relationships,
(12:02):
psychedelics, whatever it is tocope with that trauma.
Because it's there, the energyis there, the trauma's there,
it's not been healed.
And that's also when we getinto disassociation, which
Patrick deals with a lot and Ideal with a lot as an exorcist.
The other day I was working witha client and an eight-year-old
(12:22):
part of her came up with aclient and an eight-year-old
part of her came up, a littlechild talking, holding that
trauma, holding that pain thathad never been dealt with.
And trauma is like an openwound.
So if you think of, you know,if you had an open wound on your
body and you never tended to itor healed it, it would start to
(12:44):
get infected, it would start toreally get bad very quick.
And that's how it is in thesoul, our emotions, how we feel,
our thoughts, how we think.
When we experience trauma andit's not dealt with, demons
enter that trauma.
And so you know, I was workingwith that eight-year-old and
(13:04):
that eight-year-old part haddemons that were expelled and
the Holy Spirit brought healingto that part of that child.
So this is legitimately realand for those of you listening,
I know bottom line you haveunresolved trauma.
You and I both know that.
That's why you keep coming backand listening, because you know
(13:28):
this is truth.
And my encouragement to you hasbeen what I've said all along
get an exorcism, get in therapyand get well so you can walk in
the destiny that Jesus Christhas for your life.
Patrick, speaking about demonsduring therapy in some of your
(13:50):
cases, have you ever seen whereyou've hit a wall, where therapy
has not been effective andthere has been demonic influence
?
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Yes, I have.
As a matter of fact, the sharedclient that we are working with
is a prime example.
This particular client had, I'dsay, 23 to 30 different
personalities and as we'reworking through them, trying to
move them towards integration,meaning that they can release
their burdens and become onewith the core person and become
(14:21):
one with the core person, I raninto quite a bit of difficulty
with a number, especially aroundwith anger, suicidality, desire
to harm, hypercriticalityagainst themselves and others,
and you quickly realize thatyou're working against something
that's not normal nor part ofthe core person or core self.
(14:44):
And so when you identify that,especially if they're spiritual,
oftentimes what I would do isclaim the space that we're in,
pray through it, pray againstany spirits, anything that might
be influencing, and just claimthe space, the personhood, the
privacy through God, andoftentimes, when that's happened
(15:05):
, you'll see a major agitation,if not outright manifestation of
that anger, with the person.
In this particular case, hereyes went black and stood up,
threatened me, looked rightthrough me like I wasn't even
there, smashed some doors andwent out and went outside and
was carrying on.
(15:25):
So that would be an example ofstumbling into it, addressing it
and finding out that, yeah,there is something there.
Does that make sense, justin?
Speaker 1 (15:34):
It makes perfect sense and thank you for sharing
that.
So for any therapists listening, it's very key.
Look at the eyes.
If you see them dilate black,that's a demonic manifestation
and as exorcists, we're alwayslooking at the face, like
looking at the eyes, looking fortwitching, you know, around the
(15:54):
lips, looking for closing theeyes and pointing the head down,
like we're looking for visual,you know, manifestations of
demons.
And the jet black eyes are ourkey and this is one of the
reasons that I started workingwith this client is because of
the demonization.
(16:16):
This needed dealt with andwe're still working through this
.
This is an involved case andthere's many personalities like
this is an involved case andthere's many personalities and
each of those personalities needthe compassion and love of
Christ, eventually acceptingChrist so that we can expel the
associated demons.
And all of this goes back tolisten.
(16:39):
This is key a generationalcurse that's vexing this client.
This client has a generationalcurse from birth that led her
into all of this trauma, causingthe disassociation and
strengthening the possession.
So we're systematically Patrickand I together are
(17:03):
disassembling and disentanglingall of this interconnectedness
between this generational cursebecause ultimately, that's what
we're headed to is breaking thatand Patrick's working on
getting the client to integrateright when these parts of her
come into the core and unite andbecome healed.
(17:25):
That's what's meant byintegration.
You know the eight-year-oldchild.
The core does memory processingand remembers and works through
that in therapy for healing.
So it's a very powerfultechnique and many clients that
I work with and Patrick havefound tremendous healing by
(17:47):
using both therapists who areskilled man in disassociative
identity disorder.
If you're DID and you're justgoing to a normal therapist who
doesn't specialize indisassociation, then it's kind
of pointless in my personalopinion.
They're dealing with you asthough this is normal life,
(18:09):
normal depression, normalanxiety.
But it takes a specializedskill set to work with
disassociation and Patrick hasthat and I am again.
I mentioned this in the intro.
I'm going to link to Patrick'swebsite.
He practices in Pennsylvania,so if there's anybody that's
looking for someone that'squalified, I highly recommend
(18:31):
Patrick.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
So oftentimes when someone has DID and it begins to
emerge or present itself,they'll go to get diagnosed.
Go to a therapist.
A therapist who is not trainedin that will often almost 90%
misdiagnose what's going on infront of them as either
schizophrenia or paranoia orsomething like that.
(18:55):
So DID gets misdiagnosed allthe time at the detriment of the
client, and many times thattherapeutic experience can cause
more damage than it does good,actually increasing the level of
dissociation or multiplepersonalities that that person
experiences in a negative way.
So it's really important thatit's identified well and that
(19:19):
the person is treatedappropriately, like I said,
otherwise it causes damage forthem.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
I think that is a phenomenal call-out, excellent
call-out, so true.
So if you're ever diagnosedwith schizophrenia or these
other criteria that Patrick'stalking about, get tested for
disassociative identity disorderto make sure that that's not
what's going on.
And I agree with what he'ssaying.
(19:45):
The clients that I work withthat are DID.
They have been misdiagnosed andtraumatized and it takes a lot
of time, compassion and loveworking with them.
You know, to work through that.
So mission critical.
If you have been diagnosed withsevere mental illness like
(20:06):
schizophrenia or the othersPatrick was mentioning, consider
getting tested fordisassociative identity disorder
Very complex because you've gotpersonalities that have their
own voices, have their ownemotions, have their own
mannerisms.
Some of them are angry so theyact almost demonic-like.
(20:27):
So even in the deliverancerealm of Christian deliverance
ministry, a lot of times peoplethink these are just demons and
screaming at them, traumatizingthem, because they don't have
the understanding or training inDID.
So keep this in mind Even inthe deliverance circles people
(20:50):
don't have this kind of training.
The majority of people do not,and under Dr Larson's ministry
praise God I've had theopportunity to get trained in
this so that when I'm workingwith a client I can identify
what's demonic and what's ahuman part?
Speaker 2 (21:22):
That was a great point, that Justin destroy
relationships, get the person tocommit suicide, all these kinds
of harmful things.
They're usually one-dimensional, meaning they don't really have
a personality, but they kind ofhave an agenda that they're
pushing and working through.
And there are quite a few otherdifferent things.
For example, in therapy, ifyou're working with a part, they
(21:45):
have a personality.
That personality is distinctbut over time working in therapy
, that usually shifts.
When you're working with ademon, that will not shift.
They'll consistently pushtowards harm, self-harm, harm to
others and destroying arelationship.
So that's just a quick exampleand kind of underscores the
reason why it is so important tounderstand the difference
(22:07):
between parts and demons andalso someone who has parts and
schizophrenia or something else.
So thank you.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Yeah, that's a very good call out, patrick.
Mission critical, missioncritical Because here's the
thing like Patrick, you'veworked with clients that come to
you completely traumat, patrick, you've worked with clients
that come to you completelytraumatized.
I've worked with clients thathave came to me completely
traumatized by all of this.
So it takes a special person.
Anybody can do this if you havetraining.
(22:37):
And I think it's important tounderstand I call this out all
the time be careful whatdeliverance ministry you work
with.
Anybody could throw up aYouTube channel.
Anybody can have the rightverbiage, the right words.
They can say the right things.
You can go to them and getdamaged emotionally, especially
(22:58):
if they're not seriously trainedby somebody like Dr Larson
Again, you're talking.
Larson is in his 80s, he's doneover 50,000 exorcisms in over
100 countries and he has beenclinically trained on
disassociation.
So just some points to keep inmind.
(23:19):
So, patrick, you know workingwith this client that we've been
working with together.
Why do you think it's importantfor therapists and exorcists to
work together?
Speaker 2 (23:32):
What a great question .
Before I answer that, though, Ijust want to state that this
client has given us writtenpermission to have this
discussion without identifyingwho they are or where they're
from.
So just to make that reallyclear what happens here.
Therapy can only go so far ifthere's some kind of demonic
representation there.
(23:52):
That piece in and of itself isspiritually based, not
psychologically based, but tendsto reside in the soul, and so
the demons don't have fullpossession of a person, but they
antagonize, oppress and canattach themselves to very
specific parts.
The way they attach, the waythey hide they don't want to be
(24:15):
found.
It can be difficult to find one.
They will often hide within apart or hybrid with a part, in
such a way that it's hard totell that they're there.
And so, working psychologically,you know, we can heal the
person.
We work with the person to findtheir healing, to find the way
that they in particularly, canbegin to process their trauma,
(24:41):
reframe the reality and kind ofmove into the health.
However, if there's demonicpresence there, they're going to
continue to hide, they're goingto continue to come up, they're
going to continue to deflect,deny and just keep that client
absolutely stuck, and that'spart of the oppressive process,
(25:01):
finding different ways to causethat person to not be able to
feel safe or stable, and what wefind is that they can't even
act or perform well in normaldaily activities.
So it limits their ability tohave a career, to be in a
relationship, to have a familyand those kinds of things.
So it's really important, whenwe come across this, that we use
(25:25):
the expertise of someone likeyourself, justin, in combination
with what I'm doing, to kind ofwork holistically within the
soul of that person.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Amen.
I couldn't have said it anybetter.
This is my heart and passion,man, bringing these two fields
together, and it's been anamazing experience.
The client has been a sincerepleasure.
It's wonderful to be able tosit down and help people.
Patrick, you and I have beenworking together for eight
months.
How has it been possible onyour end for us to work together
(25:58):
and I'm thinking of therapistslistening right now, or even
deliverance ministers let's justcoach and help them for a
minute how has it been possibleon your end to work with me
without us stepping on oneanother's toes?
I have some thoughts I'll shareon that too, but you first.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah, I appreciate that question.
That's really a great questionand for therapists out there
that are listening to this aswell, we're working at that
levels, right on the edge of youknow what we can do
therapeutically with a license.
So keeping in our lanes, I think, is really truly important.
Justin has a, in my experiencehas a wonderful, deeply
(26:42):
wonderful now working knowledgeof people that suffer with DID
and demons and other things, andthat makes it very possible,
when the client allows for thatto happen and all the
paperwork's done and we'reallowed to talk back and forth,
to have a really rich dialogueabout what's going on and what I
(27:03):
see and what Justin might see,and the give and take of that
just really provides a deepcontext for the work that we
come at from multiple angleswith a person that's struggling
to be able to find safety and tobe able to move towards
stability.
So the conversation between thetwo of us can be based in both
(27:25):
spiritual language but also thetherapeutic language around
what's going on and they're verycomplementary.
I believe personally that aperson has a.
You know, they have their body,their mind and their spirit and
if they're Christian, they havethe Holy Spirit residing in a
temple of that person and Ithink working with that design
(27:47):
that God has made, that we havethese multiple aspects of
ourselves, helping them tobecome integrated and aligned
with what God would want forthem, is best done through the
multiple different techniquesthat we would use in combination
Justin focusing on thespiritual things, and us, me,
(28:08):
focusing on the therapeutic endof working with that client.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
All excellent advice and I agree with everything
Patrick's saying.
Now here's what I can telldeliverance ministers who are
trained in DID I've been trainedin disassociation using a
different model than whatPatrick has been trained in DID.
You know, I've been trained indisassociation using a different
model than what Patrick hasbeen trained in.
They both are amazing, theyboth help.
But what I did was I set asidemy training in DID and Patrick
(28:39):
is the therapist.
I'm following his lead, hismodel, right.
So I'm not trying to counterwhat he's saying or say what
about this or what about that?
No, I really respect Patrick asa therapist.
So I'm coming to the tablesimply as an exorcist, even
though I've been trained in DID.
(29:01):
In conversation, obviously, wetalk DID because of me being
trained in it.
I understand that universe,that paradigm.
So you know, of course we sharethoughts along these things,
along these lines.
So I think it's important forexorcists or deliverance
ministers to stay in your zone.
(29:23):
I stay in my zone as anexorcist.
In fact, there are times whenthe client will reach out to me
with emotional questions and Iwill avert the client to Patrick
, right, because Patrick's thetherapist.
He's dealing with the emotions,the disassociation as an
(29:43):
exorcist, I deal with thedisassociation, for example,
working with an altar or a partof the client that is demonized,
that has demons, and then workon expelling the demons from
that part in the client.
But I am not working onintegration or these types of
(30:06):
advanced concepts, because I amnot a therapist, I am an
exorcist and I have to haveenough understanding within DID
to be able to assist somebody toexpel the demon, and so that's
what my training is involved in.
But it's been a wonderfulexperience.
(30:26):
So the other thing I would sayto therapists and exorcists is
that Patrick and I meet often.
We share notes.
Sometimes that's just throughemail.
Here's what we've worked on,here's what I see, here's how I
think we should you know.
Here's how I think we shouldmove in the future.
(30:48):
What do you think?
And so you know the scriptureof iron sharpens iron.
So there's a lot ofcommunication back and forth and
Patrick is leading and I amfollowing.
I think that's important.
You can't have two peopleleading.
So as an exorcist, I allowPatrick and I prefer it actually
(31:09):
because he's the therapistright.
So he's leading the therapysessions and then I'm coming in
when necessary to expel andremove demons from parts that
come up.
So I think it's important.
These are just some guidelinesthat I've seen, at least from my
side.
That's worked very well andit's important.
(31:33):
Communication is key andstaying in our zones this is the
way that I found personally tostay in my zone.
Set aside my DID trainingstrictly be an exorcist, but
it's wonderful to communicatewith Patrick.
You know the therapist withregards to DID Patrick.
Any final thoughts on that onebefore we move on?
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Yeah, that's great.
I appreciate your comments.
This is very much of a teameffort that is brought about by
the client.
The client is asking for thisand wants to work in this way
and it's been a pleasure, anabsolute pleasure, working with
Justin, because he doesunderstand what we're doing and
why we're doing it and I have atremendous amount of respect for
(32:19):
his knowledge in the world ofdemonology, because he's talking
about things I don't understand.
But I'm learning and, as atherapist, to open my eyes, a
Christian therapist, to open myeyes to how some of that works,
has been wonderful.
The give and take, the back andforth, sharing of thoughts and
approaches has been wonderful.
(32:40):
We're making great progresswith this particular client.
One of the most difficult partsof this client recently shifted
to become a Christian and I wasable to share.
She says we don't know who weare and I was talking with
Justin hasn't even heard thisyet, but we were talking, I was
talking with the client and itjust came over me the armor of
(33:02):
God, you know, let's just go tothat.
And this client read it andbawled, absolutely found her new
identity in that and will beable to work with that within
her own system of parts in avery, very positive way, where
in the past it's been very, verydifficult to work with this
(33:25):
protective part.
So reframing who they are andgiving them a new job has been
just a wonderful, beautifulexperience.
And doing it in this way, whereit's combining the whole person
, their spirit, their mind,their body, their past, their
experiences, is very life-givingto this client, who has
expressed that overtly to us.
(33:46):
So those are my thoughts,justin.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
Yeah, excellent.
And it requires a lot ofpatience when working with
somebody with DID because you'renot just working with the core
person, you're working withother people that have
legitimate likes, dislikes.
Some may want to be a Christian, some may not want to be a
Christian, some may be atheists,some may be agnostic.
(34:13):
So you just have to work witheach part like they're real
people, because they are.
They are there with purpose.
You know the clients have gonethrough trauma and those
disassociative parts have camethere to protect, assist and
help.
And I wanted to swing backPatrick to you, mentioning about
(34:36):
learning a little bit moreabout demonology and exorcism.
And I just admire Patrickbecause he's interested.
I think this is important fortherapists.
He actually signed up for theInternational School of Exorcism
and the Advanced Academy ofDeliverance through Dr Larson's
ministry and as time permitswhich none of us have a lot of
(34:59):
time, but as time permitsPatrick is working through that
to gain a better understanding.
Whether he decides to become afull exorcist, you know that's
between him and God, but atleast he's going to have the
understanding so that if we dowork with other clients in the
(35:20):
future.
Now he's understanding myparadigm, my universe, a little
bit better and it juststrengthens the team effort.
So I found that veryencouraging by Patrick signing
up for them courses, and I wouldencourage therapists,
psychologists, psychiatrists,that if you're going to work
(35:41):
with somebody that is anexorcist, see if they have any
training that you can, you know,take to become more aware of
their universe and helpstrengthen the team.
Okay, patrick, I got a questionfor you.
Walking through this case, didit shift your perspective on
(36:01):
spiritual warfare or did it justconfirm what you already knew?
Speaker 2 (36:07):
That's a great question, and I was kind of
thinking this as we werewrapping up the last comments is
that, as a therapist, if we'rea Christian and we recognize
that the world that God hascreated, the Holy Spirit, jesus,
the Trinity, is real, then wealso have to recognize Jesus,
(36:27):
the Trinity is real, then wealso have to recognize that the
rest of that story is real aswell.
And just as God has a verydefined authority structure that
he works within and when I saythat, I think of Jesus
converting the water to winebefore it was his time, but
because he was a human son ofMary and Mary requested it, he
(36:48):
honored that and so there'sdistinct authority structures,
both on the godly side of thingsand on the demonic side of
things.
And what I have learned is howthe demonic side of things is
structured, ordered, and howauthority passes down through
that.
And I've seen that.
I've learned that some throughJustin and through studying, and
(37:11):
it's fascinating and it youknow.
So that I would say, is the bigthing that I've come to
understand more and in greaterdepth, and to know how that
works is critically important toboth the work that Justin does
and the work that I do, and sothat would be my comment on that
, Justin.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Again a great call out here, Great thoughts that
you're sharing, patrick, andthis goes back to guys, the
point I've always made whereAmerican Christianity
westernized Christianity, acrossEurope, across Canada, they
don't believe Christians canhave demons.
And so what Patrick's pointingout here is that he's looking at
(37:55):
the entire quote-unquoteuniverse of God, the Trinity,
god the Father, god the Son, Godthe Holy Spirit, understanding
the spiritual aspects of demonsthat are in the Bible, and
saying wait a minute, wait aminute.
If this is going on in Christ'stimes— then this has to be
(38:17):
going on in today's times.
And he has seen it.
He has seen the eyes dilate, hehas seen the rage and anger
come up.
And so I think it's important,as a therapist, psychologist,
psychiatrist, counselor,whatever your profession is, if
you're that Christian thatbelieves that absolutely
(38:39):
Christians cannot have demonsvery limited in how you're going
to be able to help a ChristianI'm assuming you're a Christian
therapist right with a Christianclient, very limited on how
you're going to be able to helpthem if you're not addressing
the spiritual aspect.
(38:59):
It's twofold, I've always saidit.
You got to address theemotional aspect Awesome, but
you also have to address thespiritual aspect, the
demonization, in order for yourclient to be well.
So I'm challenging you, thetherapist listening, if you fall
into that camp that Christianscannot have demons, I challenge
(39:24):
you to rethink that.
Okay, you hear Patrick heresharing from his heart what he's
saying as a therapist thatthere are demons.
He's encountered them.
I have other psychiatrists thatI've spoken with as well who
have encountered them.
We have therapists and DrLarson's network, dwjd, do what
(39:45):
Jesus did they encounter demons,no questions.
So you, my friend listening,who's a therapist, I challenge
you to reconsider.
I challenge you to reconsiderbecause your client may be
demonized and need freedom, andI'll leave it at that can I ask
a question to you, could you?
Speaker 2 (40:08):
I think that what goes along with that is the idea
of being demon oppressed versusdemon possessed.
They're two very differentthings.
What are your thoughts on that,justin?
Could you maybe espouse thathere?
Speaker 1 (40:23):
Absolutely so.
Catholicism has the concept ofdemon possession.
I use that wording a lot on mypodcast, the Protestant
community.
They don't like that wordingbecause they feel that that
speaks of ownership, the wordpossession, and so they've came
(40:44):
up with the words of demonicoppression or demonized.
And there is some legitimacy tothe word demonized because if
you look back at the originalGreek in the Bible, where you
may read where it says theperson was demon-possessed.
But if you look at the originalGreek, it's going to be more
(41:05):
demonized, which means you knowa part of the person's soul,
their emotions, how they feel,their thoughts, how they think
have a demon.
So that would need expelled.
But at the end of the day, forme personally, whether it's
demon possession, demonization,demon oppression, those are just
(41:26):
words For me as an exorcist.
At the end of the day, a personhas a demon, however you want
to call that, to be comfortablewith it.
I encourage you.
But yeah, that's basically justwith those types of wordings,
patrick.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
My personal theology says that we have, if we're a
Christian and the Holy Spirithas indwelled us, that is a part
of us that is roped off.
The Holy Spirit can't bedemonized, right, but the soul,
the part of the person thatlives here in time and is moving
through time, is not fullysanctified yet and who moves,
(42:08):
has to work their way throughthis world, absolutely can be,
and so that's what I considerthe difference between
possession, which would betaking control of the whole
person, or oppression, which isthe idea that their soul, mind
and body may be suffering inthis day and age, yet they're
(42:28):
not fully taken over by a demon.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
Yes, all valid points , All valid points.
Hopefully you guys are startingto get challenged by some of
this, to reconsider the thingsthat you've been taught.
And I say it often on here andI agree with you, patrick like
the Spirit is sacred, the HolySpirit comes inside of your
spirit.
Many Protestant communitiescall that being born again, but
(42:56):
it's sealed.
Demons can't get into yourspirit.
They can get into your soul,right your emotions, how you
feel, your thoughts, how youthink, and they can get into
your body.
The other day I was working witha client and she stops and she
says, sir, I have to stop, I'mgoing to vomit and get sick.
And I was like oh no.
And I told the spirit that wasmanifested.
(43:19):
I cut it off from causingsickness on her stomach and I
told it to stop it in the nameof Jesus Christ and the sickness
went away instantly.
I see this often with demons.
I'm not suggesting that everysickness and disease is from
Satan, but I have seen this inexorcism.
Recently another exorcist I wasdiscussing this with a woman
(43:42):
couldn't hear.
Her ear was deaf, became deafduring session, Excruciating
pain, completely deaf.
She couldn't hear.
He cut the demon off from thatear and told it to stop it
through the authority of Christand instantly her ear was healed
and came back to beingcompletely normal, and they
continued during the session.
So demons do come up duringsession and cause physical pain.
(44:07):
I hear it often.
It's my neck, my neck, my backright.
I'm like listen, they're notgoing to kill you, let's keep
going and I'll cut them off andtell them to stop that.
So my point simply is that weare three parts spirit, soul and
body.
Spirit, born again, belongs toJesus Christ.
Soul, body demons can enter andcause torment.
(44:30):
Patrick, what would you say toa Christian therapist who's
starting to think that there's aspiritual aspect to the client
that they're working with?
What are some steps thattherapist could take?
You know they're working withthe client.
They're like maybe this isdemons.
What's some advice you can givethem?
What's some steps that theycould take?
Speaker 2 (44:52):
Wow, what a great question.
It's a great great question, Iwould say.
Take a stance of being curiousand being open and trying to
explore with the client.
It's okay, I think, to formsome assumptions, but I don't
think it's okay to act on them.
I think you have to test themto make sure that they have
validity before you do anything.
(45:13):
But being curious, being openand maybe begin to pray with the
client and see what you get.
Oftentimes, in my personalexperience and, justin, I'd love
to hear yours is that when I dobinding and separating prayers
meaning I bind up whatever mightbe present and separate it from
(45:35):
the person through prayer thatI'll get a deep.
I often have gotten a deepreaction as that part reacts to
that Us taking the space, takingthe room, god having that.
The other thing I would say isthat none of this, in my opinion
, happens through my own fleshor my own power.
This is all the power of Jesus,the power of the Holy Spirit,
(45:58):
the power of God working and theabsolute power that's contained
in the Word.
I know the first time I did thebinding and separating prayer
with a client and I got amassive reaction.
It just imprinted on me theabsolute power of the Word of
God, and so that's a tool thatcan be a diagnostic tool as well
(46:24):
, and I think just realizingthat this isn't among my
authority, but I'm allowed to bepresent, I'm allowed to be the
third person in the room, isjust a really good stance, a
good way to be with it.
And I would say reach out tosomeone who has had a lot of
experience in this andcoordinate with them, share your
(46:45):
experience, ask good questions,like Justin's doing, and, just
you know, get good counsel, butmake sure you get good counsel,
because there are so many people, organizations, whatever out
there that have bad advice, thatmaybe don't look at how fluid
and dynamic some of this can beand just put it in a very small
(47:10):
square box, and my experience isthat it's not like that.
There's many ways that peoplecan get demons sex outside of
marriage, some of the thingsthey read, some of the things
they do.
It's very complex.
So seek someone like Justin andI work together, seek someone
who knows and work together insuch a way that you're both
(47:30):
careful of the client and howyou provide care and compassion
towards them, and yet workingwithin the reality of what the
situation is.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
Excellent advice.
Excellent advice yes, findsomebody that knows what they're
doing, and if you havequestions, you can contact me
through my website, justindcom,and I can provide you resources
that are credible for you tostudy as a therapist.
So, again, honestly, I'm notgoing to be able to just meet
(48:07):
for hours and train you, but Ican point you to resources that
are very helpful to help youbecome educated on deliverance
ministry, exorcism ministry andthings along those lines.
So we've covered a lot heretoday.
(48:27):
Patrick, I thank you very muchfor coming on, and at the end of
every episode, I always have myguests share some words of
encouragement.
So if there, for example, is atherapist listening, a pastor, a
pastor or a Christian orsomebody who feels like they may
(48:51):
be demonized, what's one thingthat you would like them to walk
away?
Speaker 2 (48:54):
with from our interview.
Well, great question, I think,an openness and a curiosity to
the possibility that somethingmore or different might be
happening.
I think, being open toexploring what's going on with
this person, what are the thingsthat I can definitely
understand and put my fingers onand what are the things that
(49:15):
just feel kind of nefarious andwhat might they be?
How do I be curious about thatand how do I hold both the
spiritual part of that person intension with the psychological
part of that person, in such away that it's holistic, that
it's looking at all of it?
And so, just being open andbeing curious, I would say to
(49:37):
the person who might think theyhave something going on, to find
a qualified, experienced personwho can work with you,
one-on-one, very specifically toyou, and be able to work to
discern what's going on and beable to then address it as well.
Welcome to the Blind Exercist.
I am Justin D, your host.
This is episode 32.
Thank you so much, my friend,for coming back and listening.
I appreciate it.
I know so many people listen tothis commuting while they're
working out, they're exercising,or just sitting down with a
(00:21):
coffee with their AirPods in andjust diving in.
People really find a lot ofinspiration from the podcast and
it's a sincere pleasure tobring this to you each month and
if you're new to the podcast,welcome.
Thank you so much for comingand joining us and I hope you
find this episode beneficial.
(00:43):
Joining us and I hope you findthis episode beneficial.
Today I sit down with PatrickMeese, who is a therapist,
highly trained, highly skilledin DID, which is Dissociative
Identity Disorder.
If you do not know whatDissociative Identity Disorder
is, I cover this in severalepisodes on my podcast.
(01:06):
You can scroll down through thetitles and look for DID or MPD.
Multiple personality disorderis what it used to be called.
Now it's called DID, and listento those because those are deep
dives into what it is and allthat.
So I'm not going to cover thatright now, but I do touch on it
lightly in the episode herecoming up.
(01:28):
I have had an amazingopportunity for the past nine
months to be working hand inhand with Patrick me as an
exorcist, him as the therapistwith a client who has DID.
This has been an amazingexperience and I'm so excited to
bring this to you guys so youcan actually see how does this
(01:52):
work.
Now, one of my passions forstarting this podcast is not
only to raise awareness thatChristians can have demons, but
secondly, that it's veryimportant for therapists and
exorcists to work together as ateam to help a client have a
(02:13):
more holistic approach toemotional healing, because
oftentimes people just go totherapy and if they have a
spiritual problem and if theyhave a spiritual problem, demons
therapy is not going to helpthat.
Likewise, if you come to anexorcist and you think you only
(02:34):
have demons, but yet you haveemotional trauma to work through
, exorcism can get rid of thedemons, but it's not going to
help you work through yourtrauma.
Therapy is essential.
So in my personal opinion, ittakes both therapy and exorcism
for a client to be emotionallyrestored.
This episode is definitely foranybody who is suffering in any
(02:59):
way.
You will find inspiration andencouragement in this episode,
but I think, outside of that,more importantly to me is get
this episode to any therapistyou know.
If you know a therapist, apsychologist, a psychiatrist or
(03:21):
even a social worker, I urge youActually let me be a little bit
stronger I plead with you toshare this out to them so that
they can begin to understandthat maybe the reason their
client isn't getting past acertain point, maybe they have
hit a wall and they don't knowwhy.
(03:42):
They've tried all the therapymodels and nothing seems to be
helping the client past acertain point.
Maybe they have demons and youare trying to address a
psychological problem.
Yes, they have a psychologicalproblem, but no, it's not all
psychological.
There's a spiritual componentto it where an exorcist can
(04:06):
assist you and you guys couldwork together.
So again, I encourage you toshare this out to any therapists
that you know.
Even pastors, get this to yourpastor, because oftentimes in
pastoral counseling pastors canonly go so far.
So then they're going to referpeople to therapy and when
(04:27):
pastoral counseling doesn't workall the way, and when therapy
doesn't work all the way, theydon't have any answers.
They're just like, well, we'vedone all we can, good luck.
So there's a missing ingredientthe spiritual component,
exorcism.
Okay, so this is going to be agreat, great episode, super
(04:49):
excited.
You guys are going to get allkinds of information.
I would like to encourage youto financially support the
ministry here.
If you have found inspirationand you have received
encouragement or even educationfrom the podcast, I'd invite you
(05:10):
right now to tap on support theshow in the show notes.
Any amount helps, no matterwhat it is.
It helps me continue to createthese amazing interviews that
you've been learning from andenjoying.
So thank you so much forconsidering that.
I appreciate it.
(05:31):
Last thing I'll mentionPatrick's contact information is
in the show notes, so if you'rea therapist and have questions,
or you're somebody that needshelp and has questions for
Patrick, feel free to reach outto him.
I'm also available.
So, as a therapist, if youwonder how does this work
(05:51):
between exercists and therapists, feel free to reach out to me
as well.
You can go to my website,justindcom, click on contact and
then send me a message.
Now we cover how this worksthroughout this episode, so I
encourage you to listen, enjoyit.
(06:11):
You're going to get a lot ofinformation and everybody out
there that is hurting and thatkeeps coming back for hope and
encouragement, back for hope andencouragement.
There is a lot here for you too.
This is just not for therapists.
Okay, here we go, get ready,buckle up.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Let's dive in, Patrick.
Welcome to the Blind Exorcist,Justin, it is so good to be with
you today.
I'm really looking forward toour talk and thank you for
having me.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
It's a pleasure, and I'm excited, very excited, to
dive into this.
As many of you know, who havebeen listening for a very long
(07:10):
time since episode one, I'vealways said it takes both
therapy and exorcism forsomebody to become whole, to
become well emotionally andrestored by the hand of Christ,
and so a passion of mine hasbeen in this ministry I've said
it almost in most episodes isthat they're not really
professions.
Like Patrick has a profession,this is a ministry, but these
two professions therapy andexorcism need to marry up so we
can help clients together.
(07:31):
It's been a sincere pleasureworking with Patrick, with our
client, for almost eight monthsnow, and we're just going to go
ahead and dive into this anddiscuss this and flush out some
of the details.
And before we do that, though,patrick, I'm going to come to
you and can you tell theaudience a little bit about your
education, where you went touniversity, what you went for
(07:55):
before you started your privatepractice.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Sure, absolutely.
Yeah, I'm a 57-year-old male,I've been married for 34 years,
I have five kids, five grandkids, and I've always been
interested in the field oftherapy, psychology,
spirituality and the mix, and soabout midlife I went back to
Evangelical Theological Seminaryand got my Master's in Marriage
(08:21):
and Family Psychotherapy, whichhas allowed me to really open
myself up to learning multiple,many, many models of therapy and
the integration thereof, and soit's really given me a great
platform for me to open up apractice.
We've done that.
We've had, you know, three,four employees working very much
(08:44):
in the Christian world, andalso with others that aren't
Christian, that choose to come,and I do a lot of work with
churches, with church leadership, with executives and with some
of the, I would say, the mostat-risk people, groups that have
multiple personality disorders,the borderline cluster B, which
is, you know, the histrionic,sociopathic kind of stuff.
(09:07):
So those are the kinds ofpeople that I work with in
addition to families, and sothat's just a little bit about
me.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Thank you, patrick.
Yes, and the credentials areamazing and the disassociation
work that you do, like you arereally into deep stuff.
The satanic ritual abuse, whichwe also deal with and you know,
this is what really brought ustogether guys is a client that
(09:35):
had, or has, disassociativeidentity disorder, who also has
demons from that, who also hasdemons from that.
So this is kind of what bridgedPatrick and I together, and
it's awesome that he is aChristian and I have spoken with
a lot of Christianpsychologists throughout the few
(09:55):
years here of me doing this,because they are interested in
this and learning how to bringthese two things together
because they see it in theirclients.
And this episode is for you,for therapists, also, for people
(10:16):
who are suffering.
This is going to give you someanswers.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Okay, patrick, I have a question.
When someone doesn't deal withtheir trauma, how do you think
that affects them emotionallyand spiritually?
It has energy that itconstantly gives off.
It's almost as if there's apart of you that is stuck in
that time, that is holding amassive burden, and it's usually
a younger part of you that isjust crying out for help.
(10:54):
And so when it's not dealt with, it can show up in many
different ways.
It can get into some verydysfunctional relationships and,
other than that, it can comeout in your health.
It can come out in grief anddepression over time, because
once again, it's giving offenergy that hasn't been
processed or dealt with and itdoesn't go away.
(11:16):
The body keeps the score.
There's a gentleman, besselVandekoff, who talks about that
and others, where we experiencethe trauma somatically and it
actually gets stored in ourbodies.
So oftentimes people will havemedical conditions that can't be
diagnosed or worked with andreally that's a result of the
lingering, unprocessed traumatrying to find a way to be
(11:38):
processed in that person.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Excellent points.
And this is so true whensomeone doesn't deal with trauma
.
I mean it's imprintedpsychologically into the person
plus physically, and so this iswhere people start to
self-medicate.
That I talk about a lot.
And Patrick mentioned gettinginto toxic relationships,
(12:02):
psychedelics, whatever it is tocope with that trauma.
Because it's there, the energyis there, the trauma's there,
it's not been healed.
And that's also when we getinto disassociation, which
Patrick deals with a lot and Ideal with a lot as an exorcist.
The other day I was working witha client and an eight-year-old
(12:22):
part of her came up with aclient and an eight-year-old
part of her came up, a littlechild talking, holding that
trauma, holding that pain thathad never been dealt with.
And trauma is like an openwound.
So if you think of, you know,if you had an open wound on your
body and you never tended to itor healed it, it would start to
(12:44):
get infected, it would start toreally get bad very quick.
And that's how it is in thesoul, our emotions, how we feel,
our thoughts, how we think.
When we experience trauma andit's not dealt with, demons
enter that trauma.
And so you know, I was workingwith that eight-year-old and
(13:04):
that eight-year-old part haddemons that were expelled and
the Holy Spirit brought healingto that part of that child.
So this is legitimately realand for those of you listening,
I know bottom line you haveunresolved trauma.
You and I both know that.
That's why you keep coming backand listening, because you know
(13:28):
this is truth.
And my encouragement to you hasbeen what I've said all along
get an exorcism, get in therapyand get well so you can walk in
the destiny that Jesus Christhas for your life.
Patrick, speaking about demonsduring therapy in some of your
(13:50):
cases, have you ever seen whereyou've hit a wall, where therapy
has not been effective andthere has been demonic influence
?
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Yes, I have.
As a matter of fact, the sharedclient that we are working with
is a prime example.
This particular client had, I'dsay, 23 to 30 different
personalities and as we'reworking through them, trying to
move them towards integration,meaning that they can release
their burdens and become onewith the core person and become
(14:21):
one with the core person, I raninto quite a bit of difficulty
with a number, especially aroundwith anger, suicidality, desire
to harm, hypercriticalityagainst themselves and others,
and you quickly realize thatyou're working against something
that's not normal nor part ofthe core person or core self.
(14:44):
And so when you identify that,especially if they're spiritual,
oftentimes what I would do isclaim the space that we're in,
pray through it, pray againstany spirits, anything that might
be influencing, and just claimthe space, the personhood, the
privacy through God, andoftentimes, when that's happened
(15:05):
, you'll see a major agitation,if not outright manifestation of
that anger, with the person.
In this particular case, hereyes went black and stood up,
threatened me, looked rightthrough me like I wasn't even
there, smashed some doors andwent out and went outside and
was carrying on.
(15:25):
So that would be an example ofstumbling into it, addressing it
and finding out that, yeah,there is something there.
Does that make sense, justin?
Speaker 1 (15:34):
It makes perfect sense and thank you for sharing
that.
So for any therapists listening, it's very key.
Look at the eyes.
If you see them dilate black,that's a demonic manifestation
and as exorcists, we're alwayslooking at the face, like
looking at the eyes, looking fortwitching, you know, around the
(15:54):
lips, looking for closing theeyes and pointing the head down,
like we're looking for visual,you know, manifestations of
demons.
And the jet black eyes are ourkey and this is one of the
reasons that I started workingwith this client is because of
the demonization.
(16:16):
This needed dealt with andwe're still working through this
.
This is an involved case andthere's many personalities like
this is an involved case andthere's many personalities and
each of those personalities needthe compassion and love of
Christ, eventually acceptingChrist so that we can expel the
associated demons.
And all of this goes back tolisten.
(16:39):
This is key a generationalcurse that's vexing this client.
This client has a generationalcurse from birth that led her
into all of this trauma, causingthe disassociation and
strengthening the possession.
So we're systematically Patrickand I together are
(17:03):
disassembling and disentanglingall of this interconnectedness
between this generational cursebecause ultimately, that's what
we're headed to is breaking thatand Patrick's working on
getting the client to integrateright when these parts of her
come into the core and unite andbecome healed.
(17:25):
That's what's meant byintegration.
You know the eight-year-oldchild.
The core does memory processingand remembers and works through
that in therapy for healing.
So it's a very powerfultechnique and many clients that
I work with and Patrick havefound tremendous healing by
(17:47):
using both therapists who areskilled man in disassociative
identity disorder.
If you're DID and you're justgoing to a normal therapist who
doesn't specialize indisassociation, then it's kind
of pointless in my personalopinion.
They're dealing with you asthough this is normal life,
(18:09):
normal depression, normalanxiety.
But it takes a specializedskill set to work with
disassociation and Patrick hasthat and I am again.
I mentioned this in the intro.
I'm going to link to Patrick'swebsite.
He practices in Pennsylvania,so if there's anybody that's
looking for someone that'squalified, I highly recommend
(18:31):
Patrick.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
So oftentimes when someone has DID and it begins to
emerge or present itself,they'll go to get diagnosed.
Go to a therapist.
A therapist who is not trainedin that will often almost 90%
misdiagnose what's going on infront of them as either
schizophrenia or paranoia orsomething like that.
(18:55):
So DID gets misdiagnosed allthe time at the detriment of the
client, and many times thattherapeutic experience can cause
more damage than it does good,actually increasing the level of
dissociation or multiplepersonalities that that person
experiences in a negative way.
So it's really important thatit's identified well and that
(19:19):
the person is treatedappropriately, like I said,
otherwise it causes damage forthem.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
I think that is a phenomenal call-out, excellent
call-out, so true.
So if you're ever diagnosedwith schizophrenia or these
other criteria that Patrick'stalking about, get tested for
disassociative identity disorderto make sure that that's not
what's going on.
And I agree with what he'ssaying.
(19:45):
The clients that I work withthat are DID.
They have been misdiagnosed andtraumatized and it takes a lot
of time, compassion and loveworking with them.
You know, to work through that.
So mission critical.
If you have been diagnosed withsevere mental illness like
(20:06):
schizophrenia or the othersPatrick was mentioning, consider
getting tested fordisassociative identity disorder
Very complex because you've gotpersonalities that have their
own voices, have their ownemotions, have their own
mannerisms.
Some of them are angry so theyact almost demonic-like.
(20:27):
So even in the deliverancerealm of Christian deliverance
ministry, a lot of times peoplethink these are just demons and
screaming at them, traumatizingthem, because they don't have
the understanding or training inDID.
So keep this in mind Even inthe deliverance circles people
(20:50):
don't have this kind of training.
The majority of people do not,and under Dr Larson's ministry
praise God I've had theopportunity to get trained in
this so that when I'm workingwith a client I can identify
what's demonic and what's ahuman part?
Speaker 2 (21:22):
That was a great point, that Justin destroy
relationships, get the person tocommit suicide, all these kinds
of harmful things.
They're usually one-dimensional, meaning they don't really have
a personality, but they kind ofhave an agenda that they're
pushing and working through.
And there are quite a few otherdifferent things.
For example, in therapy, ifyou're working with a part, they
(21:45):
have a personality.
That personality is distinctbut over time working in therapy
, that usually shifts.
When you're working with ademon, that will not shift.
They'll consistently pushtowards harm, self-harm, harm to
others and destroying arelationship.
So that's just a quick exampleand kind of underscores the
reason why it is so important tounderstand the difference
(22:07):
between parts and demons andalso someone who has parts and
schizophrenia or something else.
So thank you.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Yeah, that's a very good call out, patrick.
Mission critical, missioncritical Because here's the
thing like Patrick, you'veworked with clients that come to
you completely traumat, patrick, you've worked with clients
that come to you completelytraumatized.
I've worked with clients thathave came to me completely
traumatized by all of this.
So it takes a special person.
Anybody can do this if you havetraining.
(22:37):
And I think it's important tounderstand I call this out all
the time be careful whatdeliverance ministry you work
with.
Anybody could throw up aYouTube channel.
Anybody can have the rightverbiage, the right words.
They can say the right things.
You can go to them and getdamaged emotionally, especially
(22:58):
if they're not seriously trainedby somebody like Dr Larson
Again, you're talking.
Larson is in his 80s, he's doneover 50,000 exorcisms in over
100 countries and he has beenclinically trained on
disassociation.
So just some points to keep inmind.
(23:19):
So, patrick, you know workingwith this client that we've been
working with together.
Why do you think it's importantfor therapists and exorcists to
work together?
Speaker 2 (23:32):
What a great question .
Before I answer that, though, Ijust want to state that this
client has given us writtenpermission to have this
discussion without identifyingwho they are or where they're
from.
So just to make that reallyclear what happens here.
Therapy can only go so far ifthere's some kind of demonic
representation there.
(23:52):
That piece in and of itself isspiritually based, not
psychologically based, but tendsto reside in the soul, and so
the demons don't have fullpossession of a person, but they
antagonize, oppress and canattach themselves to very
specific parts.
The way they attach, the waythey hide they don't want to be
(24:15):
found.
It can be difficult to find one.
They will often hide within apart or hybrid with a part, in
such a way that it's hard totell that they're there.
And so, working psychologically,you know, we can heal the
person.
We work with the person to findtheir healing, to find the way
that they in particularly, canbegin to process their trauma,
(24:41):
reframe the reality and kind ofmove into the health.
However, if there's demonicpresence there, they're going to
continue to hide, they're goingto continue to come up, they're
going to continue to deflect,deny and just keep that client
absolutely stuck, and that'spart of the oppressive process,
(25:01):
finding different ways to causethat person to not be able to
feel safe or stable, and what wefind is that they can't even
act or perform well in normaldaily activities.
So it limits their ability tohave a career, to be in a
relationship, to have a familyand those kinds of things.
So it's really important, whenwe come across this, that we use
(25:25):
the expertise of someone likeyourself, justin, in combination
with what I'm doing, to kind ofwork holistically within the
soul of that person.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Amen.
I couldn't have said it anybetter.
This is my heart and passion,man, bringing these two fields
together, and it's been anamazing experience.
The client has been a sincerepleasure.
It's wonderful to be able tosit down and help people.
Patrick, you and I have beenworking together for eight
months.
How has it been possible onyour end for us to work together
(25:58):
and I'm thinking of therapistslistening right now, or even
deliverance ministers let's justcoach and help them for a
minute how has it been possibleon your end to work with me
without us stepping on oneanother's toes?
I have some thoughts I'll shareon that too, but you first.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah, I appreciate that question.
That's really a great questionand for therapists out there
that are listening to this aswell, we're working at that
levels, right on the edge of youknow what we can do
therapeutically with a license.
So keeping in our lanes, I think, is really truly important.
Justin has a, in my experiencehas a wonderful, deeply
(26:42):
wonderful now working knowledgeof people that suffer with DID
and demons and other things, andthat makes it very possible,
when the client allows for thatto happen and all the
paperwork's done and we'reallowed to talk back and forth,
to have a really rich dialogueabout what's going on and what I
(27:03):
see and what Justin might see,and the give and take of that
just really provides a deepcontext for the work that we
come at from multiple angleswith a person that's struggling
to be able to find safety and tobe able to move towards
stability.
So the conversation between thetwo of us can be based in both
(27:25):
spiritual language but also thetherapeutic language around
what's going on and they're verycomplementary.
I believe personally that aperson has a.
You know, they have their body,their mind and their spirit and
if they're Christian, they havethe Holy Spirit residing in a
temple of that person and Ithink working with that design
(27:47):
that God has made, that we havethese multiple aspects of
ourselves, helping them tobecome integrated and aligned
with what God would want forthem, is best done through the
multiple different techniquesthat we would use in combination
Justin focusing on thespiritual things, and us, me,
(28:08):
focusing on the therapeutic endof working with that client.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
All excellent advice and I agree with everything
Patrick's saying.
Now here's what I can telldeliverance ministers who are
trained in DID I've been trainedin disassociation using a
different model than whatPatrick has been trained in DID.
You know, I've been trained indisassociation using a different
model than what Patrick hasbeen trained in.
They both are amazing, theyboth help.
But what I did was I set asidemy training in DID and Patrick
(28:39):
is the therapist.
I'm following his lead, hismodel, right.
So I'm not trying to counterwhat he's saying or say what
about this or what about that?
No, I really respect Patrick asa therapist.
So I'm coming to the tablesimply as an exorcist, even
though I've been trained in DID.
(29:01):
In conversation, obviously, wetalk DID because of me being
trained in it.
I understand that universe,that paradigm.
So you know, of course we sharethoughts along these things,
along these lines.
So I think it's important forexorcists or deliverance
ministers to stay in your zone.
(29:23):
I stay in my zone as anexorcist.
In fact, there are times whenthe client will reach out to me
with emotional questions and Iwill avert the client to Patrick
, right, because Patrick's thetherapist.
He's dealing with the emotions,the disassociation as an
(29:43):
exorcist, I deal with thedisassociation, for example,
working with an altar or a partof the client that is demonized,
that has demons, and then workon expelling the demons from
that part in the client.
But I am not working onintegration or these types of
(30:06):
advanced concepts, because I amnot a therapist, I am an
exorcist and I have to haveenough understanding within DID
to be able to assist somebody toexpel the demon, and so that's
what my training is involved in.
But it's been a wonderfulexperience.
(30:26):
So the other thing I would sayto therapists and exorcists is
that Patrick and I meet often.
We share notes.
Sometimes that's just throughemail.
Here's what we've worked on,here's what I see, here's how I
think we should you know.
Here's how I think we shouldmove in the future.
(30:48):
What do you think?
And so you know the scriptureof iron sharpens iron.
So there's a lot ofcommunication back and forth and
Patrick is leading and I amfollowing.
I think that's important.
You can't have two peopleleading.
So as an exorcist, I allowPatrick and I prefer it actually
(31:09):
because he's the therapistright.
So he's leading the therapysessions and then I'm coming in
when necessary to expel andremove demons from parts that
come up.
So I think it's important.
These are just some guidelinesthat I've seen, at least from my
side.
That's worked very well andit's important.
(31:33):
Communication is key andstaying in our zones this is the
way that I found personally tostay in my zone.
Set aside my DID trainingstrictly be an exorcist, but
it's wonderful to communicatewith Patrick.
You know the therapist withregards to DID Patrick.
Any final thoughts on that onebefore we move on?
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Yeah, that's great.
I appreciate your comments.
This is very much of a teameffort that is brought about by
the client.
The client is asking for thisand wants to work in this way
and it's been a pleasure, anabsolute pleasure, working with
Justin, because he doesunderstand what we're doing and
why we're doing it and I have atremendous amount of respect for
(32:19):
his knowledge in the world ofdemonology, because he's talking
about things I don't understand.
But I'm learning and, as atherapist, to open my eyes, a
Christian therapist, to open myeyes to how some of that works,
has been wonderful.
The give and take, the back andforth, sharing of thoughts and
approaches has been wonderful.
(32:40):
We're making great progresswith this particular client.
One of the most difficult partsof this client recently shifted
to become a Christian and I wasable to share.
She says we don't know who weare and I was talking with
Justin hasn't even heard thisyet, but we were talking, I was
talking with the client and itjust came over me the armor of
(33:02):
God, you know, let's just go tothat.
And this client read it andbawled, absolutely found her new
identity in that and will beable to work with that within
her own system of parts in avery, very positive way, where
in the past it's been very, verydifficult to work with this
(33:25):
protective part.
So reframing who they are andgiving them a new job has been
just a wonderful, beautifulexperience.
And doing it in this way, whereit's combining the whole person
, their spirit, their mind,their body, their past, their
experiences, is very life-givingto this client, who has
expressed that overtly to us.
(33:46):
So those are my thoughts,justin.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
Yeah, excellent.
And it requires a lot ofpatience when working with
somebody with DID because you'renot just working with the core
person, you're working withother people that have
legitimate likes, dislikes.
Some may want to be a Christian, some may not want to be a
Christian, some may be atheists,some may be agnostic.
(34:13):
So you just have to work witheach part like they're real
people, because they are.
They are there with purpose.
You know the clients have gonethrough trauma and those
disassociative parts have camethere to protect, assist and
help.
And I wanted to swing backPatrick to you, mentioning about
(34:36):
learning a little bit moreabout demonology and exorcism.
And I just admire Patrickbecause he's interested.
I think this is important fortherapists.
He actually signed up for theInternational School of Exorcism
and the Advanced Academy ofDeliverance through Dr Larson's
ministry and as time permitswhich none of us have a lot of
(34:59):
time, but as time permitsPatrick is working through that
to gain a better understanding.
Whether he decides to become afull exorcist, you know that's
between him and God, but atleast he's going to have the
understanding so that if we dowork with other clients in the
(35:20):
future.
Now he's understanding myparadigm, my universe, a little
bit better and it juststrengthens the team effort.
So I found that veryencouraging by Patrick signing
up for them courses, and I wouldencourage therapists,
psychologists, psychiatrists,that if you're going to work
(35:41):
with somebody that is anexorcist, see if they have any
training that you can, you know,take to become more aware of
their universe and helpstrengthen the team.
Okay, patrick, I got a questionfor you.
Walking through this case, didit shift your perspective on
(36:01):
spiritual warfare or did it justconfirm what you already knew?
Speaker 2 (36:07):
That's a great question, and I was kind of
thinking this as we werewrapping up the last comments is
that, as a therapist, if we'rea Christian and we recognize
that the world that God hascreated, the Holy Spirit, jesus,
the Trinity, is real, then wealso have to recognize Jesus,
(36:27):
the Trinity is real, then wealso have to recognize that the
rest of that story is real aswell.
And just as God has a verydefined authority structure that
he works within and when I saythat, I think of Jesus
converting the water to winebefore it was his time, but
because he was a human son ofMary and Mary requested it, he
(36:48):
honored that and so there'sdistinct authority structures,
both on the godly side of thingsand on the demonic side of
things.
And what I have learned is howthe demonic side of things is
structured, ordered, and howauthority passes down through
that.
And I've seen that.
I've learned that some throughJustin and through studying, and
(37:11):
it's fascinating and it youknow.
So that I would say, is the bigthing that I've come to
understand more and in greaterdepth, and to know how that
works is critically important toboth the work that Justin does
and the work that I do, and sothat would be my comment on that
, Justin.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Again a great call out here, Great thoughts that
you're sharing, patrick, andthis goes back to guys, the
point I've always made whereAmerican Christianity
westernized Christianity, acrossEurope, across Canada, they
don't believe Christians canhave demons.
And so what Patrick's pointingout here is that he's looking at
(37:55):
the entire quote-unquoteuniverse of God, the Trinity,
god the Father, god the Son, Godthe Holy Spirit, understanding
the spiritual aspects of demonsthat are in the Bible, and
saying wait a minute, wait aminute.
If this is going on in Christ'stimes— then this has to be
(38:17):
going on in today's times.
And he has seen it.
He has seen the eyes dilate, hehas seen the rage and anger
come up.
And so I think it's important,as a therapist, psychologist,
psychiatrist, counselor,whatever your profession is, if
you're that Christian thatbelieves that absolutely
(38:39):
Christians cannot have demonsvery limited in how you're going
to be able to help a ChristianI'm assuming you're a Christian
therapist right with a Christianclient, very limited on how
you're going to be able to helpthem if you're not addressing
the spiritual aspect.
(38:59):
It's twofold, I've always saidit.
You got to address theemotional aspect Awesome, but
you also have to address thespiritual aspect, the
demonization, in order for yourclient to be well.
So I'm challenging you, thetherapist listening, if you fall
into that camp that Christianscannot have demons, I challenge
(39:24):
you to rethink that.
Okay, you hear Patrick heresharing from his heart what he's
saying as a therapist thatthere are demons.
He's encountered them.
I have other psychiatrists thatI've spoken with as well who
have encountered them.
We have therapists and DrLarson's network, dwjd, do what
(39:45):
Jesus did they encounter demons,no questions.
So you, my friend listening,who's a therapist, I challenge
you to reconsider.
I challenge you to reconsiderbecause your client may be
demonized and need freedom, andI'll leave it at that can I ask
a question to you, could you?
Speaker 2 (40:08):
I think that what goes along with that is the idea
of being demon oppressed versusdemon possessed.
They're two very differentthings.
What are your thoughts on that,justin?
Could you maybe espouse thathere?
Speaker 1 (40:23):
Absolutely so.
Catholicism has the concept ofdemon possession.
I use that wording a lot on mypodcast, the Protestant
community.
They don't like that wordingbecause they feel that that
speaks of ownership, the wordpossession, and so they've came
(40:44):
up with the words of demonicoppression or demonized.
And there is some legitimacy tothe word demonized because if
you look back at the originalGreek in the Bible, where you
may read where it says theperson was demon-possessed.
But if you look at the originalGreek, it's going to be more
(41:05):
demonized, which means you knowa part of the person's soul,
their emotions, how they feel,their thoughts, how they think
have a demon.
So that would need expelled.
But at the end of the day, forme personally, whether it's
demon possession, demonization,demon oppression, those are just
(41:26):
words For me as an exorcist.
At the end of the day, a personhas a demon, however you want
to call that, to be comfortablewith it.
I encourage you.
But yeah, that's basically justwith those types of wordings,
patrick.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
My personal theology says that we have, if we're a
Christian and the Holy Spirithas indwelled us, that is a part
of us that is roped off.
The Holy Spirit can't bedemonized, right, but the soul,
the part of the person thatlives here in time and is moving
through time, is not fullysanctified yet and who moves,
(42:08):
has to work their way throughthis world, absolutely can be,
and so that's what I considerthe difference between
possession, which would betaking control of the whole
person, or oppression, which isthe idea that their soul, mind
and body may be suffering inthis day and age, yet they're
(42:28):
not fully taken over by a demon.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
Yes, all valid points , All valid points.
Hopefully you guys are startingto get challenged by some of
this, to reconsider the thingsthat you've been taught.
And I say it often on here andI agree with you, patrick like
the Spirit is sacred, the HolySpirit comes inside of your
spirit.
Many Protestant communitiescall that being born again, but
(42:56):
it's sealed.
Demons can't get into yourspirit.
They can get into your soul,right your emotions, how you
feel, your thoughts, how youthink, and they can get into
your body.
The other day I was working witha client and she stops and she
says, sir, I have to stop, I'mgoing to vomit and get sick.
And I was like oh no.
And I told the spirit that wasmanifested.
(43:19):
I cut it off from causingsickness on her stomach and I
told it to stop it in the nameof Jesus Christ and the sickness
went away instantly.
I see this often with demons.
I'm not suggesting that everysickness and disease is from
Satan, but I have seen this inexorcism.
Recently another exorcist I wasdiscussing this with a woman
(43:42):
couldn't hear.
Her ear was deaf, became deafduring session, Excruciating
pain, completely deaf.
She couldn't hear.
He cut the demon off from thatear and told it to stop it
through the authority of Christand instantly her ear was healed
and came back to beingcompletely normal, and they
continued during the session.
So demons do come up duringsession and cause physical pain.
(44:07):
I hear it often.
It's my neck, my neck, my backright.
I'm like listen, they're notgoing to kill you, let's keep
going and I'll cut them off andtell them to stop that.
So my point simply is that weare three parts spirit, soul and
body.
Spirit, born again, belongs toJesus Christ.
Soul, body demons can enter andcause torment.
(44:30):
Patrick, what would you say toa Christian therapist who's
starting to think that there's aspiritual aspect to the client
that they're working with?
What are some steps thattherapist could take?
You know they're working withthe client.
They're like maybe this isdemons.
What's some advice you can givethem?
What's some steps that theycould take?
Speaker 2 (44:52):
Wow, what a great question.
It's a great great question, Iwould say.
Take a stance of being curiousand being open and trying to
explore with the client.
It's okay, I think, to formsome assumptions, but I don't
think it's okay to act on them.
I think you have to test themto make sure that they have
validity before you do anything.
(45:13):
But being curious, being openand maybe begin to pray with the
client and see what you get.
Oftentimes, in my personalexperience and, justin, I'd love
to hear yours is that when I dobinding and separating prayers
meaning I bind up whatever mightbe present and separate it from
(45:35):
the person through prayer thatI'll get a deep.
I often have gotten a deepreaction as that part reacts to
that Us taking the space, takingthe room, god having that.
The other thing I would say isthat none of this, in my opinion
, happens through my own fleshor my own power.
This is all the power of Jesus,the power of the Holy Spirit,
(45:58):
the power of God working and theabsolute power that's contained
in the Word.
I know the first time I did thebinding and separating prayer
with a client and I got amassive reaction.
It just imprinted on me theabsolute power of the Word of
God, and so that's a tool thatcan be a diagnostic tool as well
(46:24):
, and I think just realizingthat this isn't among my
authority, but I'm allowed to bepresent, I'm allowed to be the
third person in the room, isjust a really good stance, a
good way to be with it.
And I would say reach out tosomeone who has had a lot of
experience in this andcoordinate with them, share your
(46:45):
experience, ask good questions,like Justin's doing, and, just
you know, get good counsel, butmake sure you get good counsel,
because there are so many people, organizations, whatever out
there that have bad advice, thatmaybe don't look at how fluid
and dynamic some of this can beand just put it in a very small
(47:10):
square box, and my experience isthat it's not like that.
There's many ways that peoplecan get demons sex outside of
marriage, some of the thingsthey read, some of the things
they do.
It's very complex.
So seek someone like Justin andI work together, seek someone
who knows and work together insuch a way that you're both
(47:30):
careful of the client and howyou provide care and compassion
towards them, and yet workingwithin the reality of what the
situation is.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
Excellent advice.
Excellent advice yes, findsomebody that knows what they're
doing, and if you havequestions, you can contact me
through my website, justindcom,and I can provide you resources
that are credible for you tostudy as a therapist.
So, again, honestly, I'm notgoing to be able to just meet
(48:07):
for hours and train you, but Ican point you to resources that
are very helpful to help youbecome educated on deliverance
ministry, exorcism ministry andthings along those lines.
So we've covered a lot heretoday.
(48:27):
Patrick, I thank you very muchfor coming on, and at the end of
every episode, I always have myguests share some words of
encouragement.
So if there, for example, is atherapist listening, a pastor, a
pastor or a Christian orsomebody who feels like they may
(48:51):
be demonized, what's one thingthat you would like them to walk
away?
Speaker 2 (48:54):
with from our interview.
Well, great question, I think,an openness and a curiosity to
the possibility that somethingmore or different might be
happening.
I think, being open toexploring what's going on with
this person, what are the thingsthat I can definitely
understand and put my fingers onand what are the things that
(49:15):
just feel kind of nefarious andwhat might they be?
How do I be curious about thatand how do I hold both the
spiritual part of that person intension with the psychological
part of that person, in such away that it's holistic, that
it's looking at all of it?
And so, just being open andbeing curious, I would say to
(49:37):
the person who might think theyhave something going on, to find
a qualified, experienced personwho can work with you,
one-on-one, very specifically toyou, and be able to work to
discern what's going on and beable to then address it as well.
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