Author/Illustrator Dean Rankine on what it takes to make a career out of your craft

Episode Transcript
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(00:09):
This is the Book Deal Podcast.
Where you will discover theinspiring stories of the authors
behind your favourite books.
No matter what stage of writingyou are at, we've got you
covered.
I'm Tina Strong.
And I'm Madeline Cleary.
And join us as we pull back thecurtain of published authors.
One deal at a time.

(00:29):
The Book Deal Podcastacknowledges the traditional
owners of the land and waterswhich it's recorded on.
And pays respect to their elderspast, present, and emerging.

Tina Strachan (00:43):
Hello, I'm Tina Strachan, and in this episode of
The Book Deal, I am interviewingthe hugely successful author
illustrator, Dean Rankin.
Many listeners will know Deanfrom his prolific back catalogue
illustrating comics or from hismost recent series he not only
illustrated but also wrotecalled Death Metal Emo Elves.

(01:03):
Some of you may not realize thatyou are familiar with his work
until I read the list of hismost well known achievements in
the interview.
I know you would have heard ofat least some of them.
Unless, for some reason, youhave been hiding under a rock
for the last 30 years andhaven't heard of The Simpsons,
Futurama, or Rick and Morty, orthat little Australian celebrity
called Magda Szubanksi.
And that's only scraping thesurface.

(01:25):
The episode is an absolutegoldmine of top tips and advice,
not just for author illustratorstrying to sign books as both,
but Dean's advice about how tonavigate the industry, how to
make it profitable, and hisinspiring work ethic will
resonate with all creatives.
I hope you enjoy.
Welcome to the book deal, DeanRankin.

Dean Rankine (01:46):
Thank you for having me.
It's good to be here.

We are very excited to have you here on the
show because you are going tooffer something a little bit
different to our other gueststhat we've had so far, because
you're not only.
a writer of children's books,uh, but you're also an
illustrator of many more booksand you have even achieved the
pinnacle for many authorillustrators, which is to

(02:10):
illustrate your own books thatyou've actually written.

Yes.

So That's incredible.

been quite the journey to get to that point.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So predominantly I'm anillustrator.
I come from the illustration.
It was all I wanted to do as akid.
I wanted to draw.
I'd never knew exactly what Iwanted to do, but I knew I
wanted to draw pictures, whetherit would be in animation or kids
books or comics.
And in some ways I, it's always.

(02:36):
Still like that, still veryfluid and I'm still working
mainly between comic books andkids books is now where kind of
where both my focuses kind ofare and I work in that
conjunctively, you know, the,um, Um, yeah, yeah, but all in
the saying that though, I'vealso always written, it's not

(02:58):
like out of my skin, you know,people go, Oh, you're right.
They go, well, yeah, you kind oflike, as, as, as kids, you're
always right.
And I always imagined myself,you know, maybe doing, yeah,
writing my own picture books andcertainly when it comes to
comics.
I've written a lot of the comicsthat I've, I've illustrated.
Um, I just think I'm betterknown as an illustrator and I

(03:19):
think I'm a better illustratorthan I am as a writer.
Um, but it's not stopping mefrom doing it anyway.

Yeah, that's awesome.
So that's, it's something thatyou've always wanted to do.
So this is like achieving a bitof a dream for you.

Oh yeah.
Yeah.
I think the, it's, I neverwanted, I never wanted to do it.
I was a really shy kid,painfully shy.
I talked funny, really wasanxious, but by.
Drawing it was like that was thething that I had this sort of
positive feedback from.
So I'm very much a praisemonkey.

(03:53):
So when people, Oh, you're, oh,you're so, you know, when you're
a kid, I was like, you're sogood at that.
And you, and you go to your, forme as a kid, you go, I'm so good
at that.
That's the thing I'm good at.
Like, you know, I'm not, I'm badin sports.
Bad and everything else, butthis is what I'm good at and I
clunked that.
Looking back, I wasn't good.
I was no sort of child prodigyor anything like that.

(04:14):
I think I was maybe a doveaverage.
Um, um, but, um, sometimes, youknow, it was just, just a
passion.
It's just all I wanted to do.
Um, and any other thing is just,I don't know, even now I don't
want to really do anything else.
I just like to draw.

that's incredible.
And what a good passion to havethat you can, and that it's
something that you can doanywhere, anytime, isn't it?

yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
That way, you know, we, wetalked about AI very briefly
before starting the show.
Um, and I think that's why, oneof the reasons I, I mean, I hate
AI so much.
Um, so we're talking aboutgenerative, generative, like AI
that creates pictures and, and.
Who that correct writing andstuff that, because I feel like

(04:57):
it's stealing.
It's not only stealing, but it'sstealing from future
generations.
The opportunities that I hadfinding myself, because by doing
art, that's how I found myself.
That's my therapy, that's mypassion.
That's what I kind of live for,and to have that taken away for
the next generation, then that'swhat AI is basically doing is

Silence.
Silence.

writer.
Um, and I just, you know, Ithink I'm going to be okay.
Like I'll weather the storm,I've got, I've got a history
behind me, I've got connections,I can do lots of different
things, but the up and comingpeople though, I think they're
going to particularly strugglewith the changing scape of the

(05:54):
creative industries.

Yeah, yeah, it's a worry, isn't it?
Even my children, I didn'trealize, but, and I don't know
where they've got it from, or myeldest anyway, like they, um, it
must have come from somewhere,right?
Because he was doing it wellbefore I even kind of knew about
it, like using, um, those sortof AI generators as actual
research, as a research tool.

(06:18):
And.
Which I mean, in an ideal worldwould be fantastic if you could
like, you know, you're Googlingsomething to do your research,
you know, as you do as like auni student or when you're
researching a topic for a book.
Um, and it just, you know,brings it up and it's in this
really easy way for them tounderstand and to read, right.
But it's not really right.
But they, for some reason, andthey're so young and they just

(06:40):
think This is this is, this

this is active as well.
Yeah, and you see in these AIgenerated, they have, they have
biases.
And they're going, they're notactually just, just giving you
the facts.
They're going by, you know, verystrong bias in regards to the
information that they'regleaming from it.
So, it's, it's going, it'stroubling.
Um, we're not going to be ableto believe the videos we watch.

(07:06):
We're not going to be able tobelieve the things that we were
reading.
Um, so yeah, I think it's goingto hit it in all kinds of ways
that we don't even realize.
Um, so yeah, yeah, yeah.
I was like, we shouldn't talkabout this because it makes me
so upset and it's such a downer.
And I know the show isn't just abig downer, but yeah, it does
concern me.

Yeah, and I think, yeah, I think that's um,
something that's very concerningfor all, all authors and
illustrators, isn't it?
And yeah, we've just got to bandtogether to, Yeah.
join forces to try and hold itback.

Yeah.
Just kind of just really, justreally quickly on it.
Like, you know, I know it'slike.
New authors and stuff like that.
I think it's very tempting togo, Oh, we'll just get, you
know, generated art on my bookbecause then I don't have to pay
for an artist.
And I think you're, are youshooting yourself in your own
foot?
But also it's just, you know,the, you know, there's these

(08:01):
generators that's based onstolen artwork.
And I think morally we justcan't justify it.
I understand why people want touse it.
God, this is my, this is mychance to get published.
I just want to get published.
I understand that.
Um, but it's just such an awfulthing to do.
An awful thing to undermine.
The, like, you know, theillustrators in the industry and

(08:23):
also yourself.
It's like, you know, if you'rechoosing as a writer to use Chat
G GP or is to write your ownstuff, you're not writing shit,
you know, you're not, it's justit's all crazy

that's yeah, that's right.
No, that's fair enough.
And um, I think you can tellwith images as Well, when things
are AI

Well, yeah, at the moment we can, I think I, I can,
I'm pretty good at spotting it,but it, it's starting to get to
a point where it's, um, it'sharder, you know?

going to get

Um, because, you know, you know, the, the, it's
being generated, but then it'sgoing through Photoshop and
they're, you know, they're,they're fixing those little
things that you'd normally beable to spot about like how many
fingers, uh, I just saw a videothis morning that it was just
videos of people.
And I could tell every secondone was AI side, but it was
actually, everyone was AI.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.
Yeah.

know what else I actually saw?
Um, recently, was it one, I'mnot going to say the name, one
of the very famous shoe brands

Hmm.

created an ad that is 100 percent AI.
So no models, but it's allpeople.
So it's like any other ad thatyou see for shoes, where it's
got like athletes running andpeople dancing, not a single
model, not a single Artist.
really.
And it was like, I couldn't pickit.

Yeah.
Yeah.
this

wouldn't have known because they touch those
videos up so much, right.
To make them bright and lightand glary.
So they sort of

Anyway.

to have that look about them Anyway.
to make it look like real

Slightly surreal look anyway, but yeah.
The, um, boring, you know,things like that.
Or the, the, the actors who makemajority of their living from
doing commercials, the, youknow, all that kind of stuff,
the musicians, the, the, uh, thecinematographers, all this kind
of stuff.
And I go, these images didn'tjust come from nowhere.

(10:18):
Like they've taken people'sphotos.
They've like scoured the web.
And I don't know why there's nomore, there's isn't more uproar.
From it'll go, you took ourstuff, photos of our kids on the
beach and you put them into thisstuff.
And you go, because you've addedother stuff that you can't quite
tell exactly who's who, they'vegot all gone away with the

(10:39):
theft.
So, um, yeah.
Hey viewers, we are going to getinto some good stuff.
We're not going to be dwellingon this the whole time.

No, but I think it's really good because I think
probably, you know, there are alot of people who don't
understand that that's what itactually is.
And it is taking from, and samewith words, like you could say
for, you know, authors put in,can you write me, you know, a
50, 000 word book on this, this,and this.
And they're using words thatactually other authors have
written to train the program towrite.
So it is, you know, maybe peoplejust don't understand what it
is, what it is actually, butthat's Yeah.

(11:10):
Oh, they don't care.
That's right.

I don't care and they're just awful.
And I just think, you know, whatabout you as creatives?
Like we're talking about yourbook that kind of just, you
know, just very recently, whichis.
Super exciting.
Um, the, for me to show my artand show my stories, it's like,
you're kind of like cracking abit of yourself, your chest
open, right?

(11:33):
You're cracking a little bit ofyourself open and you're showing
the world.

Mm

the world rejects it, right, it's really, it's
kind of hard because it's hardnot to take it personally
because you are showing yourselfand you have to be brave, right?
It's, you have to be brave andyou're sharing this important
little gem of yourself and thenwhat AI has done, you're taking
the words that I've formed in mymind over years of experience,
that's my story and now they'vetaken it and they're going to

(12:00):
use it for their own evil, youknow, uses.
Awful.
That's awful.
It's such a betrayal.
I, I, I think, you know, andthen for people then to readily
accept it and I'm, I'mdefinitely concerned it's going
to be just more and moreaccepting.
Oh, well, that's the way it is.

(12:20):
We're just going to, you know,we're just going to go on like
that, you know?
Um, but I, I'm still rallyingagainst it.
I feel like it's like, uh, we'rethrowing pebbles at a tsunami.

Yeah.

Um, trying to make a stop, but I'm, I still, I
don't think we're wrong.
I don't think, I don't thinkwe'll win.
Right.

Mm.
But you can't give up, right?

don't think we're wrong.

No, no, absolutely.
Well, this is like, that's awhole nother episode that, uh,
that we should probably record

we'll have to break this in two halves.
Dean's rant about AI that was 45minutes and then we'll do the
fun stuff.

No, but it's great.
And it's really relevant.
I mean, the, the people wholistened to the podcast, uh,
all, you know, mostly aspiringauthors and, and, or even, you
know, seasoned authors and, andillustrators as well.
So it's all, it's all veryrelevant and important, but I do
have lots of other

Okay.

for you, Dean.
So we have lots of, um,unpacking.
So I even asked some of myauthor illustrator friends as
well.
Um, if they had, um, anyquestions that they wanted to
ask on sort of how you become anauthor illustrator, I get how
you get to do both becausethat's the dream, but because I
know you'll have so muchsuccess, so much advice for

(13:34):
them, but I wanted to, um, Startby reading, um, all the works
that you have to your name,actually, sorry, not all the
works because we don't have timefor that.
That's, that's a whole notherepisode,

it's over, the, the, the,

but it's, it's so impressive, Dean, and it needs
to be acknowledged.
And so for those listeners thatmay not be familiar with their
work, I think once they hear thelist, they'll most certainly
know of at least a few.
So, um, So I guess some of yourbest known works, correct me if
I'm wrong with any of these or,you know, I'm, I'm going to

(14:07):
leave out quite a few, but someof your best known works.
So you've illustrated, um, MagdaSzubanski's Timmy the Ticked Off
Pony, Morris Gleitzman's ExtraTime and Help Around the House.
Uh, Brock the Croc and there'sgoing to be a Brock the Croc 2.

Croc 2 Make It Snappy is in stores on the 2nd
of

it snappy, that's great.
2nd of April.
okay, and on the first day ofschool, the funny thing that
happened to Simon's Sidebottomseries, the Mad Scientist, the
Stuff Happens series, and youwere also the author and
illustrator of Can You Find theEaster Bunny?
Which is a year round favoritein our house, I have to say.

(14:50):
Mrs.
Snitch is a witch and your mostrecent series, Death Metal Emo
Elves.
But that's not all.
You're also an illustrator formany hugely well known comics
such as Simpsons.
Rick and Morty, Futurama, andthe Riverdale Diaries.
All

yeah,

so I think we've just taken up all our time with

yeah, yeah, yeah.
Emo

such an outstanding list of works, Dean,
and many, many well known titlesand authors there that you're
working with.
But, um, so Brock the Croc 2coming out soon, but also the
fourth installment coming outsoon of Death Metal Emo Elves.
called Kingdom of Rock.
Love the title.
Love the book.
Also really funny.
The kids love it.
Can you tell us a little bitabout, um, the, the new book

(15:35):
that's coming out?

Yeah, um, so yeah, so it's the fourth book.
So Death Metal Emo Elves isabout a group of elves.
The original book is like, inelf world, everybody plays the,
like, the polka.
You know, like, um How do youdescribe the polka?
Polka music, right?
Is the, is the only music that,um, that elves play and this

(15:57):
young elf named Emo, um, throughhis grandmother finds out that,
um, the elves used to rock.
There was a performer namedElvish.
Paisley, I think I named him,um, who was a rock star and he
discovers that they used to rockand decides to, to form a death
metal band.
Um, and so then the, so the, andit goes from there, the insanity

(16:21):
goes from there.
Um, um.
Yeah.
So each book would be slightlydifferent, but each book you can
kind of read on your own.
It's not kind of rocket science.
You can read book four if youwant.
Book four focuses more onindividual, um, band members and
what happens during the daybefore band practice.

(16:43):
Um,

It's super fun.
And it's, Um, I feel likethere's a lot of yourself in
that.
Is it like it's,

think it's, I think it's like one of those
books, the, it's like, I want towrite this.
This is like, because, you know,like, because comics wise, I've
written for the Simpsons, I'mcurrently working on Rick and
Morty, which is fantastic.
Um, but also you're kind ofdoing it for other people.
It's not your stuff, right?
Um, And in some ways I wouldhave been, like, happily doing

(17:12):
that forever, but work isn'talways as consistent like that,
so you have to kind of make yourown stories.
Um, but to do Death Metalanyway, I was just like, oh, you
know, I like the name, I likethe concept, I like urban
fantasy as a kind of genre.
Um, and I think it's, it's fun,you know.
It's one of those books, like,you'll never see, like, a
really, there won't be a reallybig kid.

(17:32):
in their human child.
It's just the elves and let'slive in elf world.
Um, and I might go to, I don'tknow, Candy Town or something
like that, but it's, they'llnever sort of integrate, you
know, hit our world except formaybe some, a giant trash can
that happens to be in there.
Um, but yeah, yeah, that's oneof the, it was one of the works
I'm most proud of.

(17:53):
I think, um, I tried.
Cause I guess it's all aboutgetting published this podcast.
Yes, I wrote it and shopped itaround to, I don't know how many
publishers.
So I'm reasonably connected withpublishers because I've worked
for Scholastic.
And, um, yeah, I'm trying to,uh, yeah, Scholastic five mile.

(18:16):
Random house as an illustrator.
So naively I thought it would bereasonably easy.
This is so stupid of me Becausewell because I know them well,
they know me they know my workgo.
Hey, would you considerpublishing something that i've
written?
um and It was really hard.
It was like nobody would say yesto it.

(18:37):
Um, and it's not like I haven'tgot credentials or even writing
credentials, which mainlybecause in comics, but I've
still, I've still written.
Um, so yeah, I tried everybody.
And what I started to do was,okay, well, I'm going to draw
it.
I'm going to start drawing it.
So, um, every day I was workingon other stuff.
Every day I would do one page ofillustrations on this.

(19:00):
Um, it was about 200 pages.
something like that.
Very, very heavily illustrated.
Um, so I'm son, I just, I willdo it.
Like, and then I put onInstagram, like each day, this
is my, you know, this page.
So people would start toactually see it come together.
And I think in some ways itstarted to get a fan base.
Maybe, you know, I remember, Ithink it was about page 70,

(19:22):
something actually thought, Oh,this is, is this stupid, this is
like really dumb thing to do togo.
Is it just a waste of time?
But I kept pursuing and, um, itkept popping, sending it.
So I would send it then topublishers with, um, with the
illustrations with how manyillustrations I've had.

(19:42):
So again, really clearly go, youcan see how the story, I don't
think it was a bad story.
You know, I don't think it wasthe best story.
I look, I was pretty good,pretty solid.
These are the illustrations.
Um, and yeah, and eventually.
Um, Redback Publishing, which isa small publisher in Sydney,
said yes to it.
Um, and which was amazing.

(20:06):
Um, and which also, what'sreally interesting about Redback
is like, they don't really, upto this point, they haven't
really published books likethis.
They kind of do things like, Idon't know, uh, this like books
about Adelaide.
This is Adelaide.
Adelaide has a population ofblah, blah, blah.
You don't, you know, that, that,those kinds of books, which is

(20:27):
great, but it was not the kindof book that they would normally
publish.
Um, but also fortunately I said,yes,

Yeah, well, I think everyone else is crazy not
to Dean, you know, got such a,

everybody,

yeah, So that's so good though.
So I just want to ask you aboutthat because a lot of people who
are sparring authors don'trealize that published authors
and even prolifically publishedauthors like yourself still get
rejected.

all the time.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
It's crazy all the time.
And even the, even if you thinkwhen I was.
I'll come back to this one.
I'll go first.
I'll finish up the Death MetalEmo albums.
So yeah, so I didn't like keptgoing and I said, we would like
to do more.
We would like to have it to be aseries.
And originally I hadn't, Ihadn't really thought about it

(21:13):
being a series.
Um, but I think it's a, it's a,it's a young sort of junior
fiction kind of.
book I think you'd class it as,or it's very, very much a comic
in some ways as well.
I have to say each page isbasically a panel of a comic.
Um, um, so yeah, so it's beenkind of going on, but there
doesn't make much money.
So I've had to, um, It's like,you know, we're, we're talking

(21:36):
about 200 paid, 200illustrations per book, really.
So, um, that's sort of hard tolike squeeze in.
It's hard for me to say no topaid work that I know it's going
to make.
This, this makes money, but nota Um, so yeah, so, but yeah, we,
we kick it on.
Yeah.
So book four comes out, um,March, I think.

(22:00):
Um, and then I'll start to tryto find a space in my schedule
to do number five.
Um, I would like to do like anongoing thing with it.
I enjoyed working on it.
Um, it'd be nice if it made moremoney.
Um, I, I did submit it toadaptable.
I think adaptable is like, youknow, I thought, Oh yeah.

(22:21):
for

Queensland Writers Centre.

Yeah, yeah, cool cartoon.
Um, but yeah, so to come backonto like your rejection thing,
I really want to sort ofemphasize that.
So for me, that, um, I havealways been rejected.
It's like this kind of, it's,it's the hustle and the grind of
being a creative.
You need to hustle for workconstantly.
And then it's the, it's like thegrind to get it worked.

(22:47):
You work on it.
I know this isn't books, butsay, say for instance, my stuff
on Rick and Morty, I.
So I, the, the publisher onlylike they open their books five
more, I don't know how manyyears ago now they opened the
book.
So I sent my, uh, resume in likea resume, not really like a

(23:07):
portfolio in, and then I said,Oh yeah, thanks for keeping on
file.
And then I reckon every maybe.
Four to six months afterwards, Icontacted them again, even maybe
more and said, Oh, just, justchecking in, want to show you
what we're working on now.
Like, you know, here's some newstuff.
And then you slowly, slowly kindof like, you know, you sort of

(23:30):
chip away.
You're always polite and youdon't, I would never send like
things off that.
You know, you're not sendingstuff off that you shouldn't be
like two people who shouldn't bereceiving it.
Um, because I think that'sreally important if there's, if
there's a, I, you know, I don'tbelieve in not doing the, uh,
submission process correctly,you know, but yeah, so I got in,

(23:50):
then I got to do a cover, whichwas great.
And then the company was sold,my editor left, and I think it
was, um, then I tried to, youknow, send to the same email,
you know, once again, oh, here Iam.
And then I reckon it was maybefive years before they contacted
again and said, Oh, we've gotthis, we've got this comic that

(24:14):
needs to get done.
You know, would you beinterested really short time?
And I said, yes, I'd beinterested.
Um, in, in the end it was goingto be.
I would have had to pencil twopages a day and ink one page a
day to hit, to hit deadline.
Most comic artists can normallyget a page a day done, right?

(24:37):
But not too, just even for me,I'm reasonably fast because I'm
very cartoony.
But even then I was not, youknow, after, even though I said,
yes, I said, this is going to bea struggle and they ended up
cutting in half and gettinganother artist to the second
half, which worked real well forthe comic.
So then since I've actually hadprogressively.
Um, sold work with Rick andMorty since then, I've done a

(24:58):
number of covers and number ofstories since then, which has
been really great.
But if I had gone, well, or, youknow, if I had gone, well, I
submitted stuff and they said,they said they'll put me on file
and then never heard back.
If I had just accepted that,then I would not have got that
work.
So I'm all, I'm all about beingconsistently contacting

(25:21):
publishers.
This is what I'm working on now.
This is my new story.
It look like if you send, youknow how also, I don't know if
this is okay, but you know, whenyou submit a manuscript and I'm
sorry, we'll get back to you innine months, right?
Or whatever, whatever, 12 monthsor whatever.
We didn't, I, I don't do that.
I will send it.

(25:42):
Sometimes I might wait a coupleof months, but otherwise I just,
I send it off to multiplepublishers because.
I'm sorry.
Like, you know, I know, Iunderstand that publishers are
busy, but if I was white,seriously, like I've had
rejection letters, I hadrejection letters for definitely
my elves for the first book,right.

(26:02):
When the second one had alreadybeen out and published like that
long, that long.
And you go, I, you know, you'veonly got.
You've only got limited time onthis planet, you, you, you know,
you have to be able to, youknow, I don't know if they, if
they come back, back and go, Oh,we swamped, we got like three
months, we'll, we'll look at itand get back to you.
No problem.
But if it's like that, kind ofjust open, Oh yeah, nine months

(26:25):
or 12 months, we'll get back toyou thing.

Or we, or we won't get back to you

Oh yeah, that's it.
I just, yeah, that's it.
That's the thing.
Just assume that we're notinterested.
I'm not doing it.
You know, I've got, I've got alist of, on which I write
another book called, um,pineapple comes to pizza town.
Right.
So it's this pineapple comes topizza town and she's trying to
make friends.
Um, and, and she ends up, youknow, saving the day and she's

(26:51):
finally accepted into pizzatown.
Right.
But I've got a list of one, two,three, four, five, six, seven,
eight, nine, 10, 11.
It's actually.
Out to, I've said that overtime, there's over a couple of
years to 11 publishers and Ihaven't heard back yet.
I think it's a fun story.
I think it's going to be cool,you know, and it's going to
happen, but yeah, you've got tobe persistent.

love that persistent and not just with the
sending it off to publishers,but with the writing or the, or
the, or the illustrations, youjust got to keep going.
Right.
So do you think you just do it?
You send it.
Don't let that stop you.
You just got to keep working on

In the meantime, you work on your craft.
Right.
You get better.
I'm working on my craft.
I'm working on my craft and I'msending stuff off.
Um, but I'm not just like, youknow, just sitting around
waiting for this to magicallyhappen.
I think I'm okay.
I'm an okay writer and I'm anokay artist, but I think.
that, you know, you talk aboutmy credits, what has given me

(27:50):
that stuff is because I'm superstubborn and crazy dogmatic
about, because this is what Iwant.
I want to do this.
Um, and I'll, you know, I'lljust, I'll, I'll push you that.
And over time I've become abetter writer, I've become a
better artist because of thework I've been doing in between.
I haven't just been sitting inmy laurels, but yeah, you have

(28:11):
to be persistent.
And even, and yeah, and youknow, I remember like reading
books about success in comics orsuccess in illustration and you
get your first, you know, youstart to go, Oh, you've worked
on this.
And then it solves your work.
Then it somehow magicallysnowballs.
And I've never had a magicalsnowball.
Uh, uh, effect, you know, thatsome are now the works coming in

(28:34):
plus four years.
I've been pretty solid, I haveto say, but like generally up
until that point, I still haveto hustle for work.
So things like something likeworking on the Simpsons was
very, um.
was a big moment in my career.
Um, I was 38 before I schooledthe Simpsons.
So I've been working all thetime.

(28:55):
So it was again, not somethingmagically happened, but I think,
so what the Simpsons do for meis that when you send something
off to someone, you say, I'veworked on the Simpsons.
People assume that you know whatyou're doing and I right?
You know, and that, so you can,maybe you can't, it doesn't
guarantee it doesn't, definitelydoesn't guarantee anything.
But it can crack that door opena little bit more.

(29:18):
They'll go, oh, they'll alwaysconsider it.
Go, oh, worked on some.
Now I say I was so, I was theworst Simpsons coming.
I have no doubt in my mind thatI was the worst one who's ever
existed, but my thinking isright.
There's such, so there's somereally, really good artists,
right?
But my thinking is.
And always continues with that.

(29:39):
You don't actually have to bethe best, right?
You just have to be good enoughto be the worst.
Right.
So do you, do you, do you knowwhat I mean?
Do you know if you're like, Iwant to play IFL or something.
I want to be the best.
You don't have to be the bestover.
You just have to be good enoughto be the worst of the alpha,
because then you get to play thegame.

Yeah.

And that's all I want to do.

Yeah.
Well, I have to say, me

be able to play

the kids.
Yeah, we could, like, we've,we've seen your comics that
you've drawn for Simpsons, andthey look great to me.
They look perfect!

The early ones are, the early ones are real
shaky.
Yeah,

a question about that?
Cause I've always wondered.
Um, and I guess, I mean, surelypeople know that there's
multiple illustrators for, causethere's no way that there's one
person drawing or all of that.
Um, how do you, do you, is thatself taught?
Do you teach yourself justthrough lots of practice or is
there like a Rick and Mortyschool where you like train

yeah, no, yeah, yeah.
So I'm, I'm, again, I'm, I'mvery cartoony and, but I have,
well, I think it was down toegotistical.
I have a pretty good ability toape.
other cartoony styles.
So if I, if I, so if I, as longas it's cartoon enough, like I
could never draw Batman forinstance.

(30:57):
I can, I cannot draw like that.
It's just not me.
Um, but if something like Rickand Morty, something like
Simpsons, then I have thecapacity to, to mimic that style
because I can look at it and go,okay, this is it.
Right.
So for the Simpsons, prior toSimpsons, I was like indie
artists and I'd done some likemagazine work and a couple of

(31:19):
books.
But my style, my anatomy was allover the place.
Like I would, people like werequite fond of my style.
They would be like eyes beloweyes and this kind of really out
there.
Right.
Um, so, but Simpsons, I'll tellyou my story.
I'll quickly tell you mySimpsons story about how it
happened.
Okay.
So I know we're looking at time.

(31:40):
This is going to be really bad.
So So I went, I was working onthese kids magazines that you
used to buy, be able to buy atthe supermarket.

Ha, ha,

D Mag, that kind of thing.
I was doing comics for those.
They didn't pay particularlywell, but I still wanted to draw
comics.
And the work dried up, so I wentto Coles.
Was that my night job?
I went to Coles to see what wasthere.
It was at the time that theywould still sell some comic
books at the supermarket.
And I picked up a Simpsons.
Um, and it all looked amazing,the art looked really good, but

(32:18):
there was one page that they'vegot some kind of guest artist
that was kind of really offmodel.
And, and I thought if I could,if I tried hard, I reckon I
could just about draw as good asthis guy here.
Right.
Just barely as good as him.
Um, so at the time you couldactually submit, there was an

(32:40):
email submission.
Which is unheard of and youcould submit your work to them.
So what I did was I didn't,like, I didn't show them, here's
my picture of Bart.
Right?
Like, because my drawings arebad, the average at best, but
what I did do is like, I sentthem two page, like a two page
comic.
It was, I did, I drew Apu and asnake holding up the Kwik E

(33:03):
Mart.
It's not, it's not good.
And I don't know why they said,yeah, but yeah.
I said yesterday, but yeah, Isaid off and I didn't really, I
don't know if I heard anythingback and then I sent something
off again and they got back tome and go, oh yeah, we're,
we're, we're going to, you know,use your, use your work.
Um, so then I thought, great.
So I would just send them stuffall the time.

(33:25):
And so.
Most of my work with Simpsonswas like two, four page backup
stories.
So the stories of the back, so Iwould write them like gag
stories, but there were thingsthat I wrote and I was like
fully, fully formed stories.
I would pencil, I would ink andI would color, send the whole
thing off.
So then Yeah, so yeah, then Iguess like they have this space

(33:46):
to fill and I go, I go, this isthe guy to fill the space.
So what that would then do, thatwould contact me and go, Oh, so
how about this Krusty the Clowncomic?
Would, you know, we're after atwo page, a two page story in
the back, back up story.
So, you know, because of thetime difference there in the
States.
So then I get it here inMelbourne.
So I would.

(34:06):
I would rough out stories likethroughout the day on pencil and
paper.
So again, I'm predominantly moreof a cartoonist than a writer.
So I wouldn't write a script.
I would actually roughly drawthe whole comic, but really
super rough to show them exactlywhat I had in mind, because a
lot of them was a visual gags.
It's hard to sometimes write avisual gag.
So, um, I would send it off andthen, so then.

(34:29):
It would be like magic.
So that would send it off.
So they'd send me an email,they'd go to bed, they'd wake up
and there'd be eight storiesthat they could choose from.
They can go, we'll do this oneand this one.
And then I, then I pencil andink it and some mostly color,
but then by the end of mytenure, they had something else
to color it.
Um, so, and so on the, whatwe're talking about, sort of

(34:49):
mimicking styles and that kindof thing.
So what I found, what I thoughtwas like, if I'm going to get
more work from them, I need tobe, I need to draw more like
Simpsons.
I need to be better.
So over the time I, you know, Iknuckled down, not just my goofy
versions of it, but more likemore on model.
Um, and I got better and betterover, over time.

(35:11):
I, so I'm the only Australian towork on the comic book,

Wow.
That's incredible.

so it was really cool.
yeah, sorry.

illustrator for them, just you know, they send
an email, they wake up the nextmorning and

It was, it was bad.
No, yeah, no problem.
I can draw it.
I can do it.
You know?
Oh yeah.
And so then it was like, it wasnice to be able to be a writer
and illustrator in that context.
They have a space to feel it andI can fill that space.
Um, there's this thick Simpsonshow to draw book.
It's like this and it becamelike, you know, my Bible.
I would just flick through it.

(35:44):
Um, because then you would,you'd have to change.
I would always just start withlike drawing a picture.
I start with the eyes and kindof build out.
There's something like Simpsons,they have a kind of a sub
structure.
Like, you know, you go, okay,Lisa to draw Lisa's head, you've
got a little bit like eightcircles.
You're going to start with theeye, then your circle, then you
do the head and then another,the, the bottom of her points of

(36:06):
her hair.
And then another one for the topof the points of her hair.
So it's quite a, you know, it's,it's quite a, quite a process.
So that will, that will be a,uh, A bit of time to change my
style and go, Oh, okay.
This is how I actually kind ofneed to work to, to draw like
that.
Um, the other thing I guess aswell, it's like, because you're

(36:26):
not just drawing the characters.
People can draw like, you know,if you haven't tried to draw the
Simpsons, you go, Oh, that's abit wonky.
Yeah, that's not bad.
But then you try to draw it.
Like you go, well, okay.
Now you're going to draw, drawJaime from a 45 degree angle
from behind or that kind ofthing.
So fortunately there's lots ofreference and stuff like that.
But yeah,

it, yeah.

And same with Rick and Morty.
I think as I've got better overtime, Rick and Morty is a very,
it's a style that suits me well,that I feel comfortable with.
Um, and so over time I've feltlike I've got better and better
with drawing those characters.
And blowback as well, becauseyou start to draw, you're
drawing the stuff all the time,

Mm.

so then it filters into your own style.
So something like Death MetalEmeralds.
It's a little bit Simpsons, alittle bit Rick and Morty, you
know, because it's just, youknow, definitely my elves is how
I draw, but you can't help butbe influenced back when you're
pushing that out in thatdirection, if you

Yeah.
No, I do.
I think it's like when you'rereading a book, or you're
reading a few books in aparticular genre and you're
writing, I really feel like itinfluences my writing.
Whatever, I'm reading at themoment, when I sit down and I'm,
and yeah, it takes a turn.
Whatever

Whatever, whatever it is.
Yeah, that's right.
That's the, that's yeah.
The beauty about it.
You're not, we're not stealinganything.
We actually like just be goingthrough our personal filter

It's what's in your

through us in another way.
So yeah.

That's incredible.

Oh yeah.
So let's see how to tell.
Yeah, so yeah, we always havecomic work and yeah, it's very,
sometimes you'll have like a,you know, a pencil and sometimes
you'll have an inker and acolorist because they have to
come up monthly, uh, often havecome up monthly.
So,

work.
That's incredible.
What an incredible story.
And like sort of something thatI didn't know anything about.
So I've always wanted to askthat question.
If

Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.

I'm a bit sad.
There's No Rick and Mortyschool, but that's fine.

Yeah.
No worries.
Yeah.

but.

Cause neither of the numbers ever said to me, you
should be more on model.
You should, can you please drawmore model?
No, it's ever spoke to me, butI've, I've chosen to try to be
on more

that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, that makes sense.

Emma Pignatiello (38:33):
Hi everyone, my name is Emma Pignatello and
I'm the author of Last Shot,which comes out on the 28th of
January with Penguin RandomHouse Australia.
I'm very grateful to Madelineand Tina for this opportunity to
tell you all a little bit aboutmy debut novel.
So Last Shot is an enemies tolovers romantic suspense novel

(38:54):
based in a fictional town in theMargaret River region of Western
Australia.
And the premise is that someoneis going to murder millionaire
winemaker Giovanni Barberanitomorrow night.
And the only two people who canstop the murder from happening
are ex con Maxella Conrad andthe Barberani's loyal fixer,
Grayson Hawke.

(39:15):
That is, if they don't kill eachother first.
If you're a fan of Lucy Score,Devni Perry and Catherine
Cowles, And, if you enjoy banterand twists and turns of
plotlines and bedsheets, I thinkyou will enjoy Last Shot.
I wrote this story because itwas simply something I wanted to
read, but I couldn't really findon the shelves.

(39:38):
I remember looking at mytowering, to be read pile filled
with romance novels and crimenovels and not really feeling in
the mood for either.
So I thought, why can't we haveboth?
And that's when I started to getreally excited about a murder
mystery romance with both kindsof guns, the weapons and the arm
muscles.

(39:59):
Thank you so much to Madelineand Tina for the chance to talk
about Last Shot on the podcastand good luck everyone with all
your writing and publishinggoals as you work towards that
book deal.

So it's notoriously difficult to be
accepted as both or your, yourwork to be accepted where you're
pitching to be both aillustrator and the writer as
well.
And

Why?
Why is that?

I don't know, but you know, for a lot of, for a
lot of maybe for the listenerswho don't.
who aren't in that space of, youknow, children's books that are
illustrated.
It's, it's, um, so for thosepeople who are author
illustrators, often when you,um, pitch, you're told only to
pitch words always, like, unlessyou're specific or you're
specifically just pitchingyourself as an artist that you'd

(40:46):
like a publisher to considermight fit particular books
written by somebody else.
But if you're trying to do both,like, so you're often asked, um,
you know, Uh, only send thewords, um, no illustrations with
the submissions, don't, don'teven put like illustrator notes
sometimes.
Um, and sometimes there'sactually even nowhere to submit

(41:07):
illustrations if there's like anonline submissions form.
Um, and, and that can bebecause, you know, the
publishers like to readsomething and, you know, make
their own sort of idea of.
What they think would work, orthey might know artists who they
think would work with thosewords, um, or it's something
just completely different, butoften, Yeah.

(41:28):
it's, it's tricky.
And so some of the questionsthat I had from author
illustrated friends was just,how do you navigate this
process?
Like, how do you, I mean, at themoment you're, you are, you've
nailed that you're, you canprobably pitch anything you
want, but you know, do you haveany advice, but

my list of, you know, pineapple comes to pizza
town.
I'm still looking at it.
It hasn't been picked up.
So maybe I'm doing it.
Maybe I'm doing it wrong.
I like, so, so the, yeah.
So.
I guess I'll just briefly talkabout how I've, I've had some
things published and I guessmaybe the listening can glean
because what happens is what Ifind is like a door opens and

(42:10):
you go through it right and thenit closes behind you so you
don't miss can't necessarily dothe exact same thing.
Someone else can't do the exactsame thing that I did to the
picture.
So, I don't know.
So, the thing that's popping inmy head isn't a writer
illustrator thing.
It was, sorry, Brock the Croc.
Um, um, Adrian Beck, the author,we've been in contact for years.

(42:35):
He said, well, we'd like to worktogether.
Let's work together onsomething.
And he said, oh, we've got thisthing to do some character
designs.
To go with the pitch.
And so I, I drew those, I sentthem in and he said, okay,
great.
Here's the pictures that you'recool with that guy.
Yeah.
He sent it off and it wasimproved in two hours.
Right.

So can I ask?

I don't know.
Is it, is that because, becauseof him,

Yes.

the story, do the illustrations help me being a
part of that process because ofwhat I've worked on help or, you
know, so I don't, so I don'tknow what

never know.
Did he send it directly to apublisher?
Did you know?
So he had like an in an inroadthere, so he sort of had that

And it worked with that before.

Yeah.

Um, so I don't know what the, so that's, that's
how that worked.
Then it was something like, so,Pineapple comes to Pizza Town,
for instance, I would, you'reright, there's not normally a
place for illustrations, but ifthere's normally a place for it,
you send the PDF off.
So I have a cover that I'vedrawn.
For that though, it's enough to,to give it a sense of the, the

(43:46):
story.
I, I struggled because of,because I do both.
I struggle with just sending offthe ill and I have, um, and so
something like definitely myelves, I sent multiple places
who I thought would be.
reasonably open to it who dothose kind of books without

(44:06):
illustrations originally andeverybody said no.

Mm.

Um, so then I added illustration.
I started illustrating it andthen I said, yes, was that just
because of the, the, the time orthe, the lack of it or, but I
just think that illustrating issuch a part of me and so
important in my.
Storytelling process that Ican't imagine, um, not putting

(44:34):
in,

Yeah.

I don't know.
So, um, something like, so Mrs.
Finch is a witch.
That was

Mm.

so Mrs.
Finch is a, is a picture book.
So I guess the first picturebook that I've written or
second, kind of, that I haven'tself published, um, and that I'd
sent that through again, anumber of.
Um, a number of publishers thatI, so I, I, I'd written, I'd
written and I'd drawn it rightwithout, without a publisher,

(45:03):
um, once again, um, and thepublisher picked it up and
basically said, cause I thinkthe reason I picked it up was
because they had a certainamount of books that had to be
sold or that ship out at acertain time.
And it was over sort ofHalloween and they go, Oh,
that's a witch story that wouldfit really nicely into it.
So basically I had a book thatwas ready to go.

Yeah.
Yes.
You're making it easy for them.
Yeah,

I'm making it easy for them to go, but it's a hell
of a, but you can't just, youknow, it's a, it's a hell of a
thing to be drawing your booksconstantly because you don't,
you don't know what format theywant to publish it in.
And this, so there had to besome changes to that as

Mm hm.
Mm hm.

And I guess the other thing that I've been
working on now is like, so yeah,can you find the Easter bunny?
But can you find the Easterbunny?
But can you find the peas comingup,

Can you find the P's?

biggies, piggies.
Can you find the piggies,

P's?

the piggies,

That'd be hard.

So I wrote that, but so can you find book?
It's about these, the threelittle pigs.
They're in, they're in, they'rein, you know, pig town, wherever
they live.
And they're sick of the wolfblowing their houses down.
So they, um, they go, we have toget out of town.
No, we have to get out of thisfairy tale.
So they employ the fairly goodmother.
She's not great, but she'sfairly good and, uh, very, very

(46:20):
good.
And she, um, does a magicalspell.
And then sort of throughout the,in those gaps, so throughout
the, can you find each of the,can you find spreads is a
different fairy tale that theyland in there, so they land in
Hamlin.
So you're going to find the pigsand then you go, Oh, count the
racks.
And you've got this kind of

That's So cool.

yeah, it's, it's a fun, great thing to work on.
And right now I'm working on,can you find the Christmas
elves?
So the way those kind of values.
Scholastic contacted me andsaid, Oh, you, the editor of
Timmy the Tick Tock Pony hadrecommended me

Wow.

I needed, so for this kind of thing, you don't
really, I'm writing them, butyou don't really miss it.
Like the writing is kind of verysecondary to the, to the
illustrations.
You need it to make sense.
So I kind of needed atheoretical writer and
illustrator for those books.
So that's what we're working onat the moment.

(47:14):
Um, so.
I, I can't like, so just saywhat I mean.
So none of them specifically,uh, I'm a writer illustrator and
you know,

I

my, my success has been random or because of being
dogmatic outside of it and just,just going for it.
So yeah, a couple of thosethings I actually drew first,
which I don't know if I wouldrecommend it.
I'm not sure if I would.
I want this to be a book.
And if I, if no one, if no onepublished it, I would have

(47:46):
published it, just selfpublished it.

I love that.
Yeah.
It's because it's, you know,it's, Yeah, it's nice to make
some money from it, butrealistically we, um, we do it
because writing andillustrating, because it's in us
and it's joyful and fun.
And if you find joy in writingdeath metal emo elves, then you
just got to do it.
yeah, And just go.
And if it gets published, youknow, that's kind of like a

(48:08):
cherry on the top, isn't it?

so.
And it is, it is not, I think,you know, I really liked it, you
know, as opposed to selfpublishing, I really like to be
published because in some waysit says to me, um, validates it.
Someone else has seen, someoneelse has seen the work and go,
I, I believe in this,

Yes.
And they do the publishers do alot of work.
It's just, you know.
I admire people who are selfpublished because just the work
that goes on behind the scenes,like even yeah.
Now, like I'm experiencing that,you know, with Harper Collins
and they have an amazing teamand you know, there's still a
lot of work that goes on and youdon't even know what it is that
they're doing half the time, butit's, it, you know, cause
they've got all those industrysort of leads and contacts and

(48:48):
they know what to do.
It's, it's, um, yes, it's a lotof work.

Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
The, um, the, the, the EasterBunny book I got, um, good news
is being, um, so it's beingpicked up by, uh, Canada or
somewhere another scholastic, soit's not just classic Australia.
So that's the other thing aswell, to go through a
publishing, get the, uh,international distribution, you
can get royalties, you know,those kind of things are, you
know, really important becauseYeah, yeah, yeah.

(49:14):
We still gotta pay the bills.

Yeah.
Can I ask you a practicalquestion, Dean?
I think you just sort of touchedon it before with sometimes
you'll just draw like the coverart or something if you did want
to submit illustrations withwork, with something that you've
written.
Um, yeah.
Do you suggest that just maybedrew one or two sample pictures
or some storyboards?
What do you reckon?

Let me see, I don't, I don't know, because I
don't, I don't, like, you'resaying you have a, like, you
know, they, there's, somespecifically say don't include
illustrations.
So, um, I'll, I'll, if I'venever come across that
specifically.
So if I want to, like, if I wantto, again, because I'm an
illustrator and I need, youknow, I want to, if I'm planning

(49:54):
on drawing it, I feel like Ishould have the opportunity to
say how I would draw it.
So I would, I think if I, yeah,if it's something like a picture
book, if you're planning ondrawing the picture book.
Then I say, yeah, draw, like dothe, at least the cover,

Mm hmm.

the, I mean, I don't know, I don't want to, you
know, I don't want to leadanybody up the garden path and
say, this is how you do itbecause I don't know how to do
it over my years because thenthings change and I don't know
how to do it.
Um, I just know that you, um,need to be brave and you need to
do it.
Um, but you know, and maybe Iguess, I guess as an

(50:31):
illustrator, maybe you want tocheck with friends A family, you
go, if you'll go, maybe yourillustration isn't up to
scratch.
You know, I think, you know, youknow, maybe, you know, you know,
I just, you know, I, I hatenegative feedback.
I, I struggle with accepting anykind of feedback on my work that
I don't like, but I think that,um, so maybe, you know, maybe

(50:53):
that would be helpful, but maybeit's just not, you know, you
know, maybe how you drawcharacters isn't best for served
for this story, for instance,you know, I, I think that,

guess I can't help her to include somewhere on
your submissions that, I alsoillustrate and would love to
show you my work because youknow, I think I've got stuff
that would fit that

there's a, if there's a, like a portfolio link
or

Yeah.

absolutely, you

Yeah, Because the publishers are going to start
looking, if they accept yourwords, they're going to start
looking for the rightillustrator for it.
And you've got to at least atthat point be like throwing,
throwing your hat in the ringfor that.
Surely.

I think so.
I think that's the goal.
If you're ill, right,illiterate, you want to draw
your own books.
So, and I think, you know, butin the meantime, when you're
still submitting stuff, you justhave to be continuing to work on
your.
Know, so yeah, I don't, I don't,I dunno what the answer is.
I say, I say Yeah, draw it

Yeah.
Yeah.

but yeah,

As you can.
Yeah.

unless you've got, you've got nothing else going,
you might as well draw it, youknow,

Yeah,

and have,

right.
Um, that's really good advice.
So, so, uh, obviously you'reworking on a lot of things and
this is Writing and illustratingbooks is, um, predominantly your
job, your predominant job.
Um, except so you do workpart-time, you were saying, but,

(52:16):
you know, for many authors andwrite and illustrators, you
know, making enough money or, orfine.
Getting, getting any profit atall from, you know, their books
or, or the illustrations is, um,is the dream.
Do you

I think it doesn't, like you've got some
really successful.
Authors, I think it's likeAngela Slater or something like,
like, it's incredibly like, um,great author and well known and
published a lot, but she wouldstill take, she was doing
classes and running classes anddoing critiques.
So everybody still seems to havea side gig and that doesn't get

(52:51):
talked about very much in theindustry.
It's like, almost like, I hearpeople that go, Oh, but I'm only
doing this part time.
Like it's a, like it's a badthing.
Like you haven't quite made, I'mnot quite cutting it because
very, you know, and I thinkit's, it's getting harder and
harder to be creative.

(53:12):
And I think the side hustleisn't, I don't know, it's just.
Part of life, you know, I justthink so.
Yeah.
So what I mentioned is that Ihave a 12 hour a week job that I
work on an outreach needle andsyringe program, drive around at
night, give out cleaninginjecting equipment I've done
for 24 years.
I don't, some, some days Istruggle with it.

(53:32):
Most days or evenings, I don't,I don't dislike it.
Um, the, but also the, so thatpays my super.
You know, it's a small amount ofsuper, I've got a little bit of
super, you know, and this kindof things that has at least a
steady amount of paycheck comingin.
So I'm not anti the, the, the,the, the side gigs, because also

(53:53):
that means maybe because of thatside gig, if work comes in that
I don't really want to do,

Mm,

know, they go, Oh, I don't, you know, it's not
something that.
Is I don't know ethically thatI'm really into or it might just
be something that I don't thinkI'm a particularly good fit that
I can say no to it.
You know, I don't have to takeup everything because I know,
you know, you know, I have tostill draw and have to still.

(54:20):
To illustrate, for money aswell, um, but I, I don't feel
quite as slave to the system ifI've got options.
So it's not, yeah, I don't knowif it's all as bad as people
think by going, oh yeah, I justwant to be a full time, you
know, of course we, you know, wewant to just do it, but

think we just want to do our own thing and not
have a

we want

like have anyone like do I set an alarm and just
work however we

Yeah, you know,

more what it is, do

know.
in, in some ways also, in someways also that I, I, it's sort
like, you know, and like lookingat you, your work schedule, you
know, the, um, I know how likeit's how strict you have to be
that I have to get this done.
I have to get, I, I work inbetween here and here, but, you
know, kids stuff, all this kindastuff that have, that I have to
work at.
I always, like, you're probablydoing, you, you're probably

(55:09):
doing a, like, being moreproductive in that period than
if you had the whole day or whatyou know, that you go, okay,
I've got x amount of time I'mgonna work.
I'm always amazed if I don'tfeel like working, I'll set an
alarm for like 20 minutes, 30minutes just as a start, like a
promodoro technique to getmoving.
And I'm amazed with how much Ican get done in 30 minutes.

(55:30):
Like, you know, I had to go andlike I can procrastinate all day
and go once I actually start,I'm amazed.
So, yeah, so I don't, I'm notsure if the, the, the dream is
ultimately the, the best thingfor us as creatives.
You don't want to be, you don'twant to be like so exhausted
that you can't work, but I thinkto have some boundaries, some

(55:52):
time boundaries and stuff likethat, you know, like this whole,
like, I don't know about you,this whole, I'm, you know, oh,
can you work when you're notinspired?
Yeah, like, of course I can,like, you know, they have this,
people who aren't working in thecreative Sphere kind of thing.
Oh, you just sit around anddrink some wine and think about
inspiration, and then you doublesome paint on the page and you

(56:13):
go, it's just not how I, how Ioperate and it's not how I work.
I'm very much a, I always thinkI'm like a mechanic, like, okay,
I'm broke down.
Okay, what do I have to do?
I break it down, okay, now I'vegotta do this and this and this
and this and this.
You know, this is my, myprocess.
Also, it helps with my anxietyas well.
My, this is my latest, um.

(56:35):
Actually, what now has become mything starting on Rick and Morty
late last year.
Okay.
Okay.
I'm so anxious about this blankpage of so you get the script
and then I do a thumbnail.
I'm not sure if everybody knowswhat a thumbnail is.
So you get it.
Yes.
So then you do A thumbnail is,you kind of break up, really
small, you break up the page andyou go, okay, so you know, so

(56:57):
Rick will stand there, so youchoose your shots, like being a
director, okay, so often, youknow, most comics start with an
establishing shot to show thereader what's happening, so each
is important you choose yourshots right about what's the
most what's the best way to tellthis story visually you're
drawing really rough then i'lldraw up all the uh like the the

(57:21):
panels and then what i didbecause i was so overwhelmed
i'll go i'm just going to drawrick So I draw Rick, I go Rick's
here, Rick's going to bestanding here, and the next
panel will be standing here, andI'll draw Rick the entire thing.
Only Rick.
Rick, Rick, Rick, Rick.
Then I'll go, okay, now I'mgoing to draw Morty.
Morty.
You know, in the positions,because I know where they're
going to be standing.

(57:42):
And then I'll go, yeah, thewhole thing, and then I'll put
backgrounds in.
I did this weird, weird reversething, until it's done.
So my thinking is go, You don'thave to be, don't get anxious
about this.
You're just drawing Rick.
You can draw Rick.
It's fine.
You know?
And so it's just game.
It's kind of this game I playnow about just getting through
everything.
You go, you go, I'm just drawingone character.

(58:04):
And then when it comes to inkingthe, so that's the black line
that goes over the top.
I, I don't start at the start ofthe comic and then go to the
back.
I'll choose.
Okay.
I'm going to, maybe on the lastpage, I'm going to do one panel.
So you do one panel and you gonext panel.
And then, so if I'm tired andI'm not doing my best, then I'm

(58:25):
hoping that that say, if it's,if it's a panel that's a bit
shaky, then I'll have these goodpanels around it.
So it won't look quite as bad,you know what I mean?
So, and then I'll just gothrough it.
So this is how I break up mysort of work day and how I work.
It's a very systemic, likesystematic about how I work and
not, not flowery.

(58:46):
I don't drink tea and play withwater is not

no.
Oh, that's a shame.
No, I didn't think that you didthough.
I had to see it as I did.

Yeah, I

but you know, you gotta do what works for you and
it's practical and it's, youknow.
treating it like a job.
I remember someone saying.
Um, once they, you know.
they've been writing forever andit wasn't until they started
treating it like a job, whichdoesn't sound very romantic and
like creative, does it?
But, but the reality is, Yeah.
you know, if you start treatingit like a job, as in like, I'm

(59:16):
going to show up for this everyday between this time and try
and get X amount of words down.
for example, or drawings down.
And um, that's when it reallystarts to sort of flow.
And

Yeah.

what's that saying?
Is it like, if you wantsomething to get done, you give
it to a busy person?
Is that the

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it.
Yeah, that's it.

it's true.

Yeah, absolutely, and we all are, you know.
Sometimes I like it to be alittle bit easier.
You know, sometimes I do getanxious when there's Too many
deadlines or something likethat.
And, you know, Oh God, thispublisher is going to ask you
about this.
And I'm right now, I'm stilltrying to get this work done on
this thing.
So that's because you have tosometimes work on multiple
things at once.
Um, that's a little bit of ahassle, but yeah, I, yeah, I

(59:56):
still, you know, I like what Ido and I just, it's, I think
it's okay to have your ownprocess about how to, how to go
about doing things, but yeah,yeah, you know, but publishes a
schedule, I mean, that's my, youknow, don't miss deadlines.
That's not, you know, I don't,you know, I, I, I, yeah, I'm not
the kind of, you know, if you'rea prima donna author that

(01:00:17):
you're, Oh no, I'm going to beanother 12 months.
So that might be, you can getaway with that.
But most of the, they, they,they need that by that time and
get it done by that time.

Tina Strachan (01:00:23):
Yeah.
Cause there's a lot of peoplethat are working on it, a huge
amount of people that are

Dean Rankine (01:00:27):
Absolutely.
They plan it like 12 months inadvance.
Like, you know, like,

Yeah.
Yeah.
yeah, But things, things happen.
Don't they?
Sometimes.
And you know, so it's not

Yeah, absolutely.
It also be nice to yourself.
Yeah.
I've been, uh, last month it'sbeen very leisurely for me.
I haven't like rocked up intothe, I'm working on two things
at once, but nothing's crazy.
So you know, I don't, you know,I, I can just like, you know, I
can work on a little bit in theday and it's been actually read
a book, you know, a little bitsometime.

(01:00:59):
I know it's unheard of, like,you know, two years ago I read
two books cause I just drewevery day.
But like I drew, I do draw everyday.
I do draw every day.
Even if I'm not doing a lot.
Um, every day I'll go to thestudio and

of something.
Yeah.
Um, well, speaking of it,treating it like a job and, you
know, when it does come to jobsand earning money, uh, you know,
sort of touched on it beforeabout sometimes just selling the
actual product, like the book onthe shelf for many authors.
That's not how they make themost, I guess, um, income in a
year, but it's, it can be from,um, you know, writing or

(01:01:33):
illustrating, um, related.
Um, events and courses thatthey're running or, um,
appearances or, um, things likethat.
You know, can you talk a littlebit to that because you do a lot
of that and school visits andyou do all the comic con fests
and stuff, which, which I justthink you just do for fun.
Really?

Yeah, they're pretty, they're pretty funny.
You get away, you get away forthe weekend, drink too much, you
know.
So the, uh, yeah.
So, um, I've been very fortunatethat I get to be.
I've been get to be a guest atcomic conventions.
Um, so I wanna, I wanna, I, Iguess I have to put a caveat on
that as a warning.
Don't tell me because I get,like, I get my, like flights

(01:02:15):
accommodation covered for myinterstate flight at interstate
conventions.
So I'm a guest, right?
If you are going.
So, yeah.
So what I, sorry.
Comic convention.
I should talk about commonconventions.
Comic conventions are a blast.
People cosplay, there's stalls,there's artists, there's actors,
there's, you know, voice actorsfrom your, you know, favorite,
you know, animated TV shows.

(01:02:36):
So people rock up like this, youknow, supernova people rock up.
Well, I saw your Gold Coastsupernova, is that right?
That's

Yep.

So, so great day, great day, great day for the
kids, everybody.
I highly encourage anyone ifyou've never done a convention
before to check it out.

They're fun.

Um, yeah, so, so our conventions is a thing
called Artist Alley, and inArtist Alley, you'll have comic
creators.
So yeah, so more mainstreamcomic creators like I am, and
then you have like independentcomic creators, um, and also
authors.
So they'll have, um, they'llhave, um, so they'll have author

(01:03:13):
guests who are there, um, andthey'll be like, you know, in a
booth normally.
I think it's that time they hadthe author from, is it fourth
wing fourth

Yes.

And I've never seen lines like it on, uh, she
was so popular, incrediblypopular.
Um, so you have like, you'llhave like bunch of authors, um,
who, who'll be the, the sort ofselling books and signing books,
but also as an independentauthor, or you can just, you can
take your books, you can, you,you, you buy a table for the
weekend, you know, hire a table.

(01:03:46):
And, um, and the idea is thatyou sell your stuff at the
conventions that can be trickyfor an independent creator
because, you know, Big, bigdreams about getting new
readers.
Um, uh, but it can be a hard gigbecause if your work isn't a
well known IP, then a lot ofpeople might just walk past it.

(01:04:09):
So.
You know, people like it, like alot of money selling prints.
Like, oh, here's my Deadpoolprint, for instance, and they'll
draw, here's my picture andthey'll, they'll, they'll sell
that.
Um, so what I do is I do atconventions, I sell like, you
know, my comics and books thatI've worked on, do signings, um,
I'll do panels and stuff likethat.
Like people ask me about, youknow, Being a, a comic artist

(01:04:32):
and illustrator.
And, um, I draw, so I drawpeople like they're a Simpsons
character as well.
And also I draw their heads andjars like their fu armor.
So that's been a, that's beenreally good for me.
So it's not an easy place todraw at a comic convention.
Like some artists will do fullcommissions, like color
commissions and stuff like that.
I don't love to do that.

(01:04:53):
Um, it's not, I, I generallywork now digitally, so when it
comes to, okay, at a, at aconvention, something like that.
Um, yeah, it's the first timeI've picked up a marker to draw
in some time often.
Uh, but yeah, so I draw peoplelike they're a Simpsons
character.
Um, so yeah, and I come backwith some money each, each time.
So, you know, have a good time,go around the country.

(01:05:16):
You know, I've had done someinternational conventions
before.
There was a blast.
Um, you get to hang out with thefamous people.
That's really nice.
Um, and you get your name outthere.
I think it's really important.
So that's one thing that I.
No, I do.
I think last year I didsomething like 15 conventions
because like regional towns andstuff like that are doing
conventions now.
Um, so that's really nice.

(01:05:36):
I've seen parts of Australiathat I would never have gone to
before.
Like I went to casino.
Yeah.
I didn't hear the casino, youknow, who would have done that?
You know, um, And so the otherthing I do is run workshops.
So I've got two going to be soonthree booking services that, so
libraries and schools cancontact me.

(01:05:57):
Um, so, so how like a lot ofauthors I'll do author talks and
I don't particularly enjoyauthor talks for me.
This is for, me because.
They'll put you up in front of,I don't know, I've had some
really bad experiences like, Idon't know, 200 year sevens, um,
who are not interested in your,you know, even if you're doing

(01:06:18):
comics, they're not interested,right?
So what I've tried to, and I'vetried to convince my booking
services that I don't want to dothose and say, okay, maximum of
70 young people.
And I run a comic book workshop.
So I start with stick figuresand by the end of it, they've
done their stick figures and bythe end of drawn their own comic

(01:06:39):
page.
And I find that for me much morefulfilling and much, I think
better for them as well.
I'll try to get you to have alot more students cause more
bang for their buck.
Um, but I, yeah, I, I, I likeit.
Like, yeah, yeah.
I just silly stuff, you know,um, The silly ways that they can
then generate ideas forcharacters I do.

(01:07:02):
Um, and, um, yeah, it's, it's a,it's a fun little session.
So I did 34 of those last year.
Um, so that was, yeah, authorsdo more.
I love, I've, I've heard a lot,a lot, like, you know, doing,

job in itself, just

oh, August, book week goes, book week goes for
like six weeks.

Yeah.
Yeah.
it.
does now, doesn't it?

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So yeah, yeah,

Oh, well, hang on.
Week.
It

Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Any librarians or, you know, orteachers just get us in other
times besides August, please.
Uh, so, um, so that's beenmoney's great.
I would like, I would like, um,the booking services originally
was like, this is how much wecharge.
I was like, Oh my God, this isgreat.

(01:07:48):
Um, and I would never have donethat.
But now I can't go yet.
No, it's like, yeah.

that's

this is my, this is my minimum of amount of money
that I would, I would likeduring my, um, for my session.
Um, I'm an introvert.
You wouldn't think so how muchI've talked today, but I'm a,
I'm pretty introverted and Ifind them enjoyable, but
draining.

Oh, I

Like I'm, I've kind of spent after the, after
the time, um, and, um, I kind ofthink if I was like a, like a
theater kid.
If I was like, if you're kind oflike really like to perform,
you'll do very well in that kindof context and have a good time.
Um, I, yeah, I was kind of atheater kid, but I worked in the

(01:08:30):
background.
So like, it was like, no, I findit.
Yeah.
I like it by fine.
I do find it tiring.

Yeah.
Yeah.
I know what you mean.
And I think though, um, causeI've, you know, I see a lot of
all the talks as well and I'veseen the full spectrum of people
who are basically clowns on, onThe stage, which is, you know,
gray and I've got so muchenergy.
And then, and then I've seen thecomplete opposite of people who
are really quite quiet and just.
be themselves and just stand upthere doing their thing.
And, you know, I think that justsome appeal to some and some

(01:08:58):
just don't, appeal to others,you know, and, you know, I think
it can be, I think it canactually be either way.
And you're going to appeal to,you're not going to appeal to
every single person in you.
yeah, You don't have to be aclown.
I think a lot of

I don't, yeah, yeah,

by that and think that's what you have to do to
entertain the children.
And it's not always that, well,I'm hoping it's not that because
I can't be a clown.

wanted to be, I wanted to have some substance as
well.
I wanted to take, like, when youhear things like, uh, this kid
who doesn't really do anybodylife's comics, and I've had
times where they go, like, thekid who was really quiet, they
will start, they continueworking on their comic.
During recess, afterwards, thoseare the kinds of things that I

(01:09:42):
find really important.
And those are the things thatgo, you know what, as a kid,
that's the kind of kid that Iwould have been.
That, so it's, you know, notjust engaging the, the
gregarious kids, but the oneswho are quiet and more
contemplative.
Um, so yeah, so yeah, also, youknow, if I wasn't getting paid
for it, I wouldn't do it.
I don't want you to think it'saltruism, um, at all.

(01:10:03):
But I think it is.
a good way.
And I think in some ways, Ithink you'll find some authors
basically that's what they'renot writing for, but that's what
they're actually generatingtheir main income from doing all
the talks.
That's where most of their moneyactually coming from.
Not the, not the illustrationpart or the, um, the writing

The authoring

I just find it interesting.
I just think, yeah, good, goodas well.
A good string to your bow.
If you can, if you can get it.
So, yeah.

Yeah, no, that's awesome.
Thank you.
So that's all really good tipsand, um, but do you have like a
number one top tip for authorsor illustrators or someone who
wants to be an authorillustrator?
Like what's your number one toptip?

I think you, yeah, I think you need to be brave.
You need to work hard, um, andyou need to put yourself out
there and don't roll with thoserejections.
Um, work on your craft.
I'm just, I know it's like 5,000 things work on your craft in
the meantime, but yeah, don't,I'm not saying be rude, but you
know, just go, you know, youcan, you can submit.

(01:11:08):
More than once, unless they'vesaid no, stop it, no more
submissions, you know, justsubmit again.
Um, it might have, you know,might have like rolled, you
know, might have been a bad dayfrom someone.
You might find there's adifferent editor looking at it
now.
It's, you know, you know, thingschange, are always changing.
So yeah, don't, maybe don'tthink, okay, I was rejected by

(01:11:31):
them or I didn't hear back.
I don't, I don't think there'sanything wrong with circling
back.
down the, down the track.
Um, and yeah, it's, yeah, andyeah, you have to be stubborn.
That's the diplomatic.
Absolutely.
And I think Yeah, yeah.

the second time that they see your name, right?
So then that's starting to, youknow, maybe form in their mind a
little bit or just, Oh, Iremember that.
No.

I don't know what the answer is.
I mean, you almost, you need tohave like someone on the other
side of the fence is almost likea champion on your behalf or
someone who'll go, Oh, actuallyyou, I believe in this book.
I believe in this person.
Um, I know one, um, I don't knowif it's bad to me.
I won't mention who it is.
who it was, but I know one, onestory I was told that a recent

(01:12:21):
picture book that they, theirfriend basically walked it up to
the editor inside, they musthave another author said, you
need to publish this book.
You know, that, you know, youneed to like, have a look at
this and it's been rejected athousand times.
And so.
It's like nothing is like, yeah,there's no clear rules.

(01:12:42):
Um, I think the, there's this,it's like this pulp series years
ago, I read, it's called thestainless steel rat.
And it's about this guy who's athief, right?
You like, you like, it was like,it's like being a rat.
Like, you know, in the old daysyou would be able to scuttle
just through like wooden brick.
But now in the future, if you'relike a, if you're.
A rat, you have to, it's astainless steel world that we

(01:13:03):
live in.
And so, and I kind of thinkabout that as well when it comes
to creatives, they go tostainless steel and we're rats
in stainless steel world.
And we have to be smart, um, andbe creative about the way we
promote ourselves, the way weget in.
There's no clear thing, but youhave to be.
You have to be tough, you know,you will, you will take it, take

(01:13:25):
the, take the blows.
Um, this is going to be, youmight have to cut this story,
but I guess that the

No.

the story about working in Hollywood and it's
like that you.
It's like, it's like climbing amountain of shit to get to a
single rose, right?
So you climb the mountain ofshit, and by the time you get to
the rose, you've lost all senseof smell.
Right, right, right.
There's, and I just, in someway, I think it's, you know, so

(01:13:54):
I guess I'm philosophical aboutmy success.
You know, you go, I've donethis, this, I really feel really
proud of one of these awards,but, but I know what it's taken
to get there.
That is just love to get there.
So you're, you're, you'rethankful, but it's not, you
know, yeah, it hurts.
You go, you, you, you don't, youknow, in some ways, if you're

(01:14:16):
not hurting, you're not doing itright because there, there is,
there's, there's this.
There's a, there's a price topay, you know, so, um, but yeah,
Daniel, a positive note, still,still really great.
Still, I don't, there's nothingI want to do other than I want
to do.
I just want to do this.
Um, I just want to play thegame.

(01:14:36):
I want to be good enough to bethe worst and play the game.
And if there's nothing, youknow, um, it's all I want to do.
And if there's a price to pay,then I'm willing to pay it.

That's great.
That's a great point to end on.
Thank you, Dean.
Thank you so much for being onthe podcast.

No worries.
It was great.
Great training.

Thank you for listening to the book deal
podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe to the pod so
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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Author/Illustrator Dean Rankine on what it takes to make a career out of your craft

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