September 24, 2025 • 57 mins
In this episode, I chat with my friend and fellow author interviewer, Sara DiVello. Sara is a thriller author, and creator and host of Mystery and Thriller Mavens, a popular author interview series and interactive Facebook group. We met at the San Diego Writers Festival and have since become friends. Sara's boundless energy and verve for life and literature are contagious. Sara is a gem!
Have you ever stumbled upon the ruins of a castle in suburban America? For Sara DiVello, that chance discovery sparked a decade-long journey to uncover one of the Jazz Age's most fascinating unsolved murders.
Sara shares the remarkable story behind her historical thriller, Broadway Butterfly. The book resurrects the forgotten 1923 murder of Dot King, a case that implicated one of America's wealthiest families and exposed the complex social dynamics of Prohibition-era New York.
With candor and warmth, Sara reveals her own compelling journey from corporate burnout to published author. After a pivotal moment watching her mother face terminal illness, Sara confronted the question we all eventually face: if time were limited, would you spend it as you are now? This revelation led her to abandon her stable but unfulfilling career to pursue writing, with yoga teaching providing both financial support and the mental clarity essential for creativity.
What makes this conversation truly exceptional is Sara's deep dive into her meticulous research process. Drawing from over 1,800 primary sources, she reconstructed not just the crime but the textured world of 1920s Manhattan—from the cigarette-littered floors of newspaper offices to the complex racial dynamics facing Black Americans who had migrated north. Her approach to writing characters outside her own experience, particularly Ella Bradford (a Black woman in 1923), demonstrates remarkable care and ethical consideration.
Sara illuminates the eerie parallels between 1923 and today. "How much has changed and how little has changed," she observes, noting society's persistent fixation on controlling women's bodies and choices, and our collective reluctance to confront uncomfortable historical truths.
Ready to discover why forgotten stories like Dot King's matter now more than ever? Listen now, and consider what voices from our past still deserve to be heard.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Hi, my name is Mandy Jackson-Beverly and I'm a
bibliophile.
Welcome to the Bookshop Podcast.
Each week, I present interviewswith authors, independent
bookshop owners and booksellersfrom around the globe and
publishing professionals.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media, and remember to
(00:33):
subscribe and leave a reviewwherever you listen to this
podcast.
You're listening to episode 308.
And eight, hi, I hope you'rehaving a great week.
My goodness, the world is acrazy place right now, and I
certainly find solace within thebooks I'm reading.
(00:55):
It's hard to believe that herewe are in 2025.
And people are still scared.
They're still fearful of whatthey can learn in books.
It's mind-blowing to me, andnot in a good way.
What we read, what we watch,what we listen to is our
business.
(01:15):
I don't think it's anybodyelse's, and I, for one,
certainly like to have thechoice of what I can read or
watch or listen to, withoutanybody having to tell me what
to do or what to listen to orread or watch.
The real fear is not that thiscould happen, but rather it is
happening now in the UnitedStates of America.
(01:37):
Here's a reminder of the wordsin the First Amendment Congress
shall make no law respecting anestablishment of religion or
prohibiting the free exercisethereof, or abridging the
freedom of speech or of thepress, or of the right of the
people peaceably to assemble andto petition the government for
(01:59):
a redress of grievances.
A reminder that my specialguest at the Lunch with an
Author Literary Series event inSanta Barbara on October 16th is
Bruce Holsinger.
Bruce and I will chat about hislatest novel, culpability, and
what he's been up to since hislast visit to the Santa Barbara
Lunch with an Author LiterarySeries in 2023.
(02:21):
I highly recommend readingHolsinger's Backlist, starting
with the Displacements.
It's a well-written, fast-paced, fabulous and timely novel.
Okay, now let's get on withthis week's conversation.
Sarah DiBello is a true crimewriter and the creator-host of
Mystery and Thriller Mavens, apopular author interview series
(02:43):
and interactive Facebook group.
Her most recent book, broadwayButterfly, a Thriller, was a CBS
New York Book Club pick.
An Entertainment Weekly MostAnticipated Book, was featured
in Vanity Fair and earnedstarred reviews from Booklist
and Library Journal.
Divello also serves as theco-chair of the Nantucket Book
(03:05):
Festival and on the board of theNantucket Book Foundation, on
the Literary Committee of theBoston Book Festival and on the
board of Friends of the SouthEnd Library, where she curates
the Author-Speaker Series Forher weekly Mystery and Thriller
Mavens live events.
Sarah has interviewed over 400authors, ranging from the
(03:25):
best-selling and world-renownedto the buzziest debuts.
In her spare time she loves toteach yoga, cook and eat, garden
and go for leisurely walks withher husband and their beloved
rescue mutt Paluda.
Hi, sarah, and welcome to theshow.
It's great to see you again.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
I'm so thrilled to be here, mandy, I'm so excited to
chat with you.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Well, I have so many questions to ask you, so let's
get started.
I'd like to begin with learningabout you and your university
life.
Studying communications with asemester abroad at City of St
George's University of London in1997, followed in 1998 with a
semester abroad at theUniversity of Queensland, in my
(04:06):
home country.
Did you have fun in Australia,oh, Mandy?
Speaker 2 (04:11):
I loved Australia so much that I tried to move there
and the citizenship was.
It was tough to get at the timebut I loved Australia so much
that I even considered getting atattoo of the Australian flag
over my heart and ultimatelydidn't do that.
But Australia resides in myheart as such an incredible,
(04:34):
magical place and I loved everybit of it, from the red sands in
the middle to the beautifulwaters in Port Douglas, the
Cairns, up and down the coast,melbourne, the Gold Coast,
brisbane, where I lived, sydneyoh my gosh, I hiked the Olgas, I
(04:57):
went to Arras Rock, uluru.
I mean, I love Australia somuch and I continue to see the
family that I lived next door tohave become lifelong friends
and I talk to them all the timeand see them all the time and I
love my Aussies.
They're my Aussie family.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
I think you and I need to go down there and plan
some kind of a I don't know abook festival down there.
Wouldn't that be fun, oh mygosh.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yes, at UQ, at UQ, let's go.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
I'm in.
Okay, let's get back to you.
You worked in public relations,marketing and as a yoga
instructor before pivoting tothe realm of books.
Did you feel your identityevolve across these different
careers?
Speaker 2 (05:38):
That is such a great question.
And you know, mandy, I knewfrom the time that I was five
years old that I wanted to be awriter and actually it's
probably more like eight,because I thought that was when
I figured out that those bookson the library shelves didn't
just appear there, they werewritten by actual people.
But I grew up in a super poorfamily and books were luxury
(06:04):
items, which is why we went tothe library, because we couldn't
afford to buy books.
So every two weeks we went tothe library, we filled our
grocery bags with books, I tookthem home, I read them all and
then two weeks later we go backand repeat the process, and when
I ran out of books I wouldreread the entire children's
section, then the adult section,ya section, and work my way
into the adult section.
And I love books.
(06:26):
I was a voracious reader andthen I wanted to write books.
But because I grew up in suchchallenging circumstances, I
didn't feel like someone like mecould be a writer.
And I was the first one in myfamily to go to college and I
worked my way through college inthe university's public
(06:47):
relations office and when I came, and in spite of working my way
through, I still had to takeout a ton of student loans
because, unlike Australia,education is not affordable in
the United States.
Australia has an incredibleeducation system where they
really make it accessible andaffordable for all of their
students, which is one of themany, many things that I love
(07:08):
about Australia.
And so I came out and I had aton of students' debts and I
needed to get a reliable andhigh-paying job to pay those
student loans back andeventually to be, able to afford
a car payment and a mortgageand all of those real life
expenses that most of us have.
So I took that experience that Ihad garnered working my way
(07:30):
through college and went rightinto the corporate world working
in public relations andmarketing.
Now I knew on day one, by 9.15am, that this was not for me,
but it didn't feel like I had achoice because I had the student
loans and rent and all theother expenses of living to pay.
(07:51):
So I stayed and I worked thatjob and jobs like it for 13
years and I knew all the whilethat my heart yearned to write,
but it didn't feel possible withbills to pay.
And finally, a couple of thingscoalesced in my life where I
(08:12):
turned 30, which is the age thatmy teenage self and my young 20
self thought was the magicalage that I would have everything
figured out.
I would have a great wardrobe,obviously, a great boyfriend,
obviously, and a great careerthat I loved.
And I turned 30 and none ofthose things were really
(08:34):
happening.
I had a great boyfriend, whoeventually became a great
husband, but I didn't have agreat wardrobe, mostly because I
realized I was terrible atstyle and I hated my job.
At the same time, my mother wasdiagnosed with terminal breast
cancer and given six months tolive, and this was such a shock
(08:59):
because no one in my family hadever had cancer, and it was so
systemically shocking that shehad to stop and think about what
did she want to do with thoselast six months.
And I started thinking oh myGod, what would I do if I only
had six months to live?
As I was watching her wrestlethrough these decisions and then
it occurred to me that none ofus really know how much time we
(09:19):
have left.
I could step outside after thisinterview and get hit by a bus.
So how will I have spent thelast six months or last six
minutes or six years of my life?
And if I'm not doing what Iwould want to be doing in those
last hypothetical six months,why?
am I doing it at all, when Icould get hit by a bus in five
(09:40):
minutes, and it was this hugewake-up call.
The third thing that happenedthat was really motivating was
that I worked in financialservices, which at the time was
a super male-dominated field,and I worked in public relations
and marketing, which was theone little enclave where there
(10:00):
could be a woman in leadershipand I would walk in.
I was usually the only woman inthe room.
There'd be 90 guys, one me, andsometimes there would be one
other woman and she would be myboss.
So in my mind I'm thinking, hey, sister, let's be here together
in this world of men.
And she was thinking I hope youdie, oh my goodness, and I'm
(10:24):
going to stab you with the sharppoint of my stiletto and step
over your dead body to getmyself to the next level.
And I happen to work under aparade of what can only be
described as stupendously badfemale bosses.
And so these three things ofdealing with this backstabbing
and bitchery in a male-dominatedworkplace, with this
(10:46):
backstabbing and bitchery in amale-dominated workplace, my
mother having only six months tolive, and this secret lifelong
desire to become a writer,really started to coalesce
around the age of 30.
And I thought I got to get outof here.
I got to make a change and Igot to live a life that's
authentic to me and eventually Istarted saving my money and I
started making a plan andeventually I was able to quit my
corporate job and start writingmy book and, as an additional
(11:06):
source of stable income, Istarted teaching yoga.
So it took me five years towrite my first book.
I was teaching yoga the wholetime and that book is where, in
the MMI, it came out in 2013.
And it is about exactly thisthe you know, finding your path
and stepping away from what isfamiliar, convenient, easy,
(11:26):
expected, lucrative all of thesereassuring words to what is
real and terrifying and excitingand thrilling and authentic to
you.
Then I started writing my secondbook, which was Broadway
Butterfly.
That took me 10 years, keptteaching yoga and then I
actually took those skills of PRand marketing.
Because I quickly realized thatmost took those skills of PR
and marketing, because I quicklyrealized that authors most
(11:47):
authors are really struggle withPR and marketing and I started
putting them to use doingmarketing for authors and
organizations and book festivals.
And so the identity itselfnever changed I always wanted to
be a writer.
I always yearned to be a writer.
(12:07):
I always saw myself first andforemost as a writer, but the
external circumstances didn'tlet that happen for a while.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
But it ended up being okay, because the skills that I
garnered along the way ended upcoming in quite handy when I
finally was able to make thatleap to author and I think it's
great when you reach a certainstage and you can look back and
understand why you were learningthese other skills that at the
moment, you might have thought.
I don't know what I'm doinghere, but okay, I'll do it,
(12:37):
Because, as an author especiallyin 2025, the skills you've
learned are now essential forauthors, right?
Yes, In 2013, your book when inthe Om Am I?
One Woman's Journey from theCorporate World to the Yoga Mat
was published.
Did you find that spiritualpractices like yoga and
(12:58):
mindfulness transformed not justlife choices but narrative
style and discipline?
Speaker 2 (13:10):
And that is why you are the renowned interviewer
that you are.
Mandy Jackson, beverly, yes,and in my you know how long has
it been?
15 years of doing this orhowever long it has been?
No one has ever asked me that,and I love that you asked me
that and the answer is aresounding yes, because when you
are writing, there's a lot toworry about.
Will I sell this book?
(13:32):
Will I find an agent?
Will my agent be able to sellthis book?
Will I get a publisher Assumingall of that happens when the
book comes out?
Will I get good reviews?
Will people like it?
Will I sell copies?
There's a lot of clutter and alot of worries that could really
bog a creative person and awriter down, but you can't
create in that state of chaosand worries.
(13:53):
A calm mind is a creative mindand I use yoga as a tool to calm
my mind and enter a state ofgroundedness and focus and
calmness and clarity, so that Ican put aside all of those
worries and just write the story.
And so that's the first way inwhich it helps.
(14:14):
The second way in which ithelps is that writing is often
uncomfortable because of theseworries and because you don't
know what's going to happen.
Will you be able to finish thebook, will you be able to sell
the book, will you be able totell the book in a way that will
garner good reviews or sales,or whatever it is.
So sitting in that discomfortis hard, and yoga is a tool that
(14:40):
helps you to sit in discomfort,be present in it and keep going
.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
And plus, it keeps you healthy mind, body, spirit.
Exactly Now, because you'vetraveled quite a bit and lived
in other countries, how hastravel and global perspectives
influenced your storytelling?
And let's face it, you can geton the internet now and look up
what a particular street lookedlike in 1650 or something like
(15:08):
that in London.
But I feel that visiting othercountries, and especially living
in other countries, even ifthey are English-speaking
countries, allows you to get afeel of the culture of that
history, how things smell in thestreet.
You know all that kind of thing, absolutely yes in two specific
(15:28):
ways.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
The first is that it's very easy for all of us to
stay where we are comfortable,where it is familiar, convenient
and easy.
And when you stay in a placewhere everyone looks like you,
sounds like you, speaks yourlanguage, has your food, has
(15:50):
your same accent, has your sameproducts, your same brands,
where you know where everythingis, where you know where the
pharmacy is, you have yourdoctor, you have the grocery
store, you know where everythingis and you're comfortable there
, it's very easy to stay there.
And I think there is nothingmore valuable than getting out
(16:12):
of your cozy corner and out intothe world to help you to
realize that A there is a bigand beautiful world out there.
There is a big and beautifulworld out there and it helps you
to realize your unique place init and to cultivate empathy for
those who are different.
And I think that empathy is keynot only to writing, but also
(16:40):
just to living a wholehearted,open-hearted human life.
And it's very easy to think thateveryone is like you when you
never leave your little cozycorner of the world, that
everyone thinks like you orlooks like you or votes like you
, or that this is so obvious orthis is how it's always been or
this is how it should be.
(17:02):
But when you get out in theworld and you are other, you are
different.
You're the one who looksdifferent, you're the one who
sounds different, you're the onewho doesn't speak the language.
You're the one who has to askfor help and you can't speak the
language, you can't rememberthe word and you're looking for
the translation.
And it's humbling and it's hard, and it makes you kinder and
(17:25):
more empathetic to those who,when you're back in your corner
of the world, are having thatsame struggle.
And it also makes you justrealize that when you know,
specifically as a writer, whenyou're writing people who are
not like you, that you canimagine and start to viscerally
feel what that would be like.
So, as a creative, but alsojust as a human, it's so
(17:47):
important to get out in theworld, it's so important to just
go.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Yeah, I completely agree.
Something that stood out to mewhile I was reading your novel
Broadway Butterfly is how wellyou set scenes, and I was
wondering if you'd like to readthe paragraph from page 97,
starting with back at the news.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Oh, I would be so honored.
And thank you for your verykind words, mandy.
This is one of my favorite, oneof my favorite paragraphs.
I can't believe you picked it.
So here we go Back at the news.
The city desk bustled, asalways, a cacophony of ringing
phones and overlappingconversations.
Press agents lurked, waitingfor their chance.
Reporters rushed out in pursuitof a source or rushed back in
(18:31):
fresh off a tip, everyone alwaysin a hurry.
The floor, as usual, was filthy, littered with detritus, ash,
cigarette butts, scraps of paper, containers of coffee and
remnants of sandwiches left in ahurry and never disposed of.
The old building's army of micewould be scurrying toward the
feast later and the copy boyswould reach for their makeshift
(18:53):
rubber band slingshots andpaperclips to wage their war
against the vermin.
Julia took her seat and tuckedinto writing her story.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Seedlessness.
Now you know why I love thatparagraph.
I mean, it completely sets themood.
The scene came alive.
I saw it in my mind as if I waswatching a film and the camera
was panning around the room.
An important part of writing isto be able to center yourself
so that you are in the mind ofthe person you're writing about.
(19:26):
The way Julia looks around theroom and this is what she sees
and you can tell by the lastsentence that you read about
Julia sitting down to write isthat she, like the author you,
has actually centered herself,and now she's about to start
writing.
So let's get back to yoga.
Would you say that yogapractice helped cultivate
(19:49):
presence, the moment andimagination in your writing?
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Yes, yes, 1000 times yes.
And what I really love aboutthis paragraph that you picked
is that every single one ofthose things that I mention are
1000% historically accurate anddrawn from the historical record
.
So I had found a memoir by oneof the other reporters that
(20:15):
Julia had worked alongside, aswell as a biography of Philip
Payne, her editor, and theytalked about how filthy the
floor was and how you know thatthey people, of course they
smoked like chimneys, all ofthem.
You know lung cancer, neverheard of it, and they would just
throw their cigarettes on thefloor and they would just, you
(20:38):
know, ball up the paper andthrow it on the floor and ash
their cigarette you know theircigarettes on the floor, or just
put the sandwich on the floor.
And of course, there was a mouseproblem, which is just so
disgusting I mean, it's justfilthy.
And they talked about the copyboys who would sit on the
benches and chase these mice.
And as someone who's scared ofmice, I mean there's nothing
(20:59):
more horrifying than picturingmyself like Julia trying to type
her article and little armiesof mice are scurrying around her
feet.
That would be very hard for meto work in that situation, mandy
, but I can picture it.
I can smell the cigarette smoke, I can hear the scurrying and
the squeaking and the shouts ofcopy boy and the copy boys
(21:22):
running over their littleleather shoes, pounding on the
floor, you know, to get the copyand run it out to the printer.
I mean, it's just it's.
I can transport myself thereimaginatively and visually, and
I want to transport my readersthere too, which you do
beautifully.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
You spent years researching and writing Broadway
Butterfly.
I'm interested to know whatinitially attracted you to the
story and what kept you going.
Let's face it, it takes a lotof courage and determination to
finish a novel.
So for anyone who's writing anovel and they're into year
(21:59):
three and you're thinking toyourself, oh my God, when am I
going to finish this thing Ithink it's helpful to know what
kept other writers going.
So that's my question to you.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
You're three years in .
Okay, perfect, you're a thirdof the way there.
Keep going, keep going.
Take a snack break and thenkeep going.
Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
It's exactly what you have to keep doing.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Yeah, exactly.
So I was home for Thanksgivingin Philadelphia visiting my aunt
and the day after Thanksgiving,Black Friday, not a lot
happening if you're not outhitting the sales which I am not
, because I hate crowds, andthat would be a nightmare almost
as bad as the mice runningaround my feet in Julia's
(22:44):
newsroom at the city desk.
So we're sitting around, we'rehaving our leftover turkey
sandwiches and mashed potatoesand whatever.
And my uncles start reminiscingthat back in the 1960s they
used to cut classes and sneakout of high school and they used
to go over to the old castleand they would sit on the stairs
(23:05):
of the castle and they wouldsneak cigarettes and sneak beer.
And my first thought was youknow, these are my stately
uncles.
I was so shocked to think ofthem, as you know, truant
students cutting class andsmoking cigarettes.
And I said, oh my, you guyswere really bad.
You were the bad boys ofCatholic high school.
(23:25):
And then my second thought waswait, did you say castle?
I'm sorry, castle, what castle?
And they said, yes, it's beentorn down.
Now, it was torn down in the1980s, but back in the 60s there
was a grand estate, a castle,an actual, a veritable mansion
(23:47):
half a mile away and my auntlives in a very normal, very
modest suburban neighborhoodwhere everything is a split
level ranch circa 1950, sixsteps up, six steps down, and
every house kind of looks thesame.
And so the idea that there wasa castle around was so crazy.
So, needless to say I needed togo take a look at this castle.
(24:10):
So all 11 of us pile into threecars and we caravan over to the
next suburban development, youknow, half a mile down the
street where in the between theSubarus and the tulip beds and
the split level ranches, Mandy,are the ruins of an actual
castle.
That's crazy.
And there are headless statuesof Diana and Zeus and the
(24:34):
remnants of a fountain that oncegurgled, and in the middle of a
soccer field is a grand curvingstaircase going to nothing,
coming from nothing.
And in someone's backyard arethese six 50-foot tall pillars
up to the sky, to nothing.
And it's so eerie, it is sobizarre to stand on what you
(25:00):
know was the foundation of thishouse, this enormous mansion,
147 rooms, and no, you couldjust feel in the same way that
when you visit a battlefield allthe hairs on the back of your
neck go up.
You're like some stuff happenedhere.
Okay, Some stuff went down, andso I went home and I learned
everything about this castle the147 rooms, 28 bathrooms, 24
(25:22):
fireplaces, its own ballroom,its own gymnasium, its own radio
station, its own movie theater,its own ballroom, 70 full-time
gardeners just to maintain theproperty.
These incredible statisticsyou're like, well, that's really
cool, but I'm not in the castleraiding business, so I moved on
.
But then I couldn't stopthinking about this castle and
(25:45):
this family and I could feel inthe marrow of my bones that
there was a story here.
And so I went back aroundValentine's Day, so three months
later, and I found this 1952book and it was something like
Scandalous Philadelphia, the 100most shocking things to ever
rock the Quaker city.
Now, obviously it doesn't takethat much to rock a Quaker.
(26:08):
Bless their hearts.
But this was scandalous becausethere was one page and one
paragraph that said you know, oh, the Stotesbury family, who
lived in this castle, who wasone of the 50 wealthiest
families in the world and whosethe father was the founding
partner of JP Morgan, with MrMorgan himself, with JP himself,
found themselves in anuncomfortable situation when the
(26:32):
son-in-law's mistress turned upmurdered in her bed in Midtown
Manhattan, and I got goosebumpsall over my body and I said
that's my story and I dove downthe research hole and it just
kept getting crazier.
And Dot King, who is themurdered scandalous flapper
(26:52):
found on West 57th Streetwearing a lace negligee that
barely reached her knees, youknow was fascinating.
And then Julia, the leadreporter that covered the case
at a time when less than 20percent of American women worked
outside the home and 1 percentof newspaper people who worked
in the newspaper world werewomen.
(27:13):
Of people who worked in thenewspaper world were women.
There were 3,500 members of theNew York Newspaper Union, 35
members of the Women inNewspaper Club, and she's my
main point of view, my maincharacter.
And then Detective John DCoughlin, who's the head of the
NYPD detectives unit, with 1,200men reporting to him.
(27:33):
And the New York, who's thehead of the NYPD detectives unit
, with 1200 men reporting to him.
And the New Yorker did aprofile of him in 1926 and
called him the cop in the silkshirt because he would only wear
silk shirts and he had thisincredible photographic memory.
Now we would call himneurodiverse.
Then they said back then theycalled him that poor jerk
burdened with a terrible memorybecause he couldn't stop
(27:57):
remembering things.
So if you named an address, hewould start spouting out every
crime committed around therewithout being able to control.
He would just start spoutingout this long list of crimes
because he had it all in hishead, which I think is so
fascinating, but they were like.
That poor guy is odd.
He's the second lead creationand the world wake of the civil
(28:40):
war who came north and east toescape legalized racism and
discrimination down south.
And she's my third point ofview, and then Frances
Stotesbury is my fourth point ofview, and it's what kept me
going for those 10 long years is, first of all, I didn't know it
was going to take me 10 years,so I kept thinking I'm almost
done.
Oh my gosh Like a greyhound,reaching for that bone, racing
around the track.
I'm almost done.
(29:00):
But it was also learning howextraordinary these people were
and feeling the solemnity andthe burden and the honor of
being the one to tell theirstories, these real people, and
I just kept thinking if in 100years, someone wanted to tell my
story and they won't becauseI'm not that interesting but I
(29:21):
would be like don't rush.
Don't rush, like you know,don't get me on my best day,
don't get me on my worst day.
Capture the fullness of myhumanity, the complexity of my
humanity, and honoring them andtrying to do that was what kept
me going.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
And that brings up another question for me Can you
speak about the ethicalresponsibility in writing?
True crime inspired fiction andbalancing fact, speculation and
sensitivity, for example,changing names etc.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Thank you so much for raising that that is so
important.
And because they are realpeople, you really want to take
the time to get it right.
So for once, my good oldanxiety and OCD came in handy,
because I was going to get itright, mandy, and if it took me
10 years, I was going to get itright.
(30:13):
So I accumulated over 1800pieces of original research and
I stand firmly on the shouldersof my research and I can tell
you exactly the cost of daycareis accurate.
I mean, everything down to thecost of daycare per day is
factually accurate.
Because I really took the timeto get it right, because these
(30:34):
are real people and you have tohold their humanity gently and
carefully and really take thetime and care to get it right.
And when you are tellinganyone's true story, you want to
invest that time and don't takethe shortcuts.
True story you want to investthat time in there.
(30:55):
You don't take.
You know, don't take theshortcuts.
I didn't change anybody's name,except for the sort of
non-necessary characters in thepolice station, because I didn't
have another 10 years to makesure that I was capturing them
in the wholeness of theirhumanity, because they only had
three lines or whatever.
But I think that you know again, it's really about taking the
(31:21):
time and the care and holdingyourself to the highest ethical
standard that you would want astranger to hold themselves to
if they were writing your story.
The other thing that you wantto be really careful about is
when you are writing incharacters and voices that are
outside of your own experienceas I was you want to go to
(31:44):
expert sources for them.
So specifically, I'm thinkingabout Ella Bradford, and Ella
Bradford is a black Americanwoman and I will never know what
that experience is like to beblack in America, because I have
the privilege of walkingthrough life as a white woman
(32:05):
and so I will never knowpersonally the depths of that
experience.
So I went to expert sources.
I worked with my honorary auntsBernadine Nash-McClam Dr
Bernadine Nash-McClam, phd, mdiv, mba from Harvard who is the
(32:25):
most learned and brilliant womanI know, who holds a PhD and a
master's in divinity fromHarvard and an MBA from Harvard
and who is a black Americanwoman.
And I said I have no ego aboutthis.
Tell me how to tell Ella'sstory.
And I worked with her over thecourse of nine years to get it
(32:48):
right.
And I think you have to honorthat.
When someone who is in thatperson's experience, who's
telling you this is how it is,you have to say yes, absolutely,
and thank you and not getdefensive and take your ego out
of it and never think that yourimagination is better than their
lived experience.
And when she says you know,this is not how a black woman
(33:10):
talks, I say thank you, tell mehow a black woman talks and
really take the time to get itright.
And then I hired my ownsensitivity reader because I
don't ever want one person tohave to speak.
It wouldn't be fair to ask youto speak, for what is the
experience?
What's it like to be anAustralian woman?
You can only speak to yourexperience of being an
Australian woman.
What's it like for me to be awhite woman in America.
(33:31):
I can only speak to myexperience of being in the
Northeast, you know, so I can'tspeak for that whole experience,
and so I would never ask aperson of color to say you know,
tell me what it's like to beblack in America.
It's like, tell me what yourexperience was like.
And then I got to hire, spendmy time and energy and money to
hire a sensitivity reader.
(33:52):
I hired two because, again, I'mtaking care, and then my
publisher also hired asensitivity reader because I
really wanted to get it rightand to honor the truth of this
experience.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
And honestly I think it matters to the readers.
Most of my friends, who arereaders anyway, we appreciate
the research that goes intohistorical fiction.
Sarah, why is it that forgottenstories like Dot King's matter,
and what's at stake inresurrecting history's silent
voices?
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Oh, my God, I love this question so much.
So if I could, mandy, I wouldwrite books like this for every
single unsolved crime in theworld, because I believe that
every single person who has beenharmed and wronged in this way
deserves to have justice, andtheir families deserve to have
(34:47):
justice, and they deserve tohave their voices heard.
And so, if I could, I would doevery single one of them,
because it's a crime, if punintended, that they're first
harmed in this way of havingtheir life ended and not on
their terms, and then they'reharmed secondarily by not
getting justice and by beingdenied justice and not getting
(35:09):
their voice heard in the worldas more than just a victim.
And so that's why this matters,and I noticed that there's a
really dangerous trend right nowin America of wanting to turn
away from history and turn awayfrom the ugly parts of history,
and specifically I'm thinkingabout the part of the history of
(35:32):
enslaved Black Americans is nowa paragraph, I think, in sixth
grade history books, and somepeople in this country don't
want to talk about the Holocaust, they don't want to talk about
slavery, they don't want to talkabout anything ugly and hard,
and I think that's reallydangerous.
And here's why and hard, and Ithink that's really dangerous.
(35:54):
And here's why, if we don'tlook at our ugly and if we don't
look at our hard, we are nevergoing to do better going forward
.
We are doomed to repeatourselves.
And, mandy, we have to dobetter going forward.
We have to do better goingforward.
And the only way we're going todo better going forward is if
we look back, see what we didwrong, acknowledge it and then,
(36:15):
looking at those ramificationsand harm, use that as motivation
to make different choices goingforward.
And so, as I see history notbeing honored and as I also see
history repeating itself, now itfeels more important than ever
to write about this in thecontext of a page turning
(36:37):
hopefully page turning thrilleror historical book of any genre,
so that we can really start torealize that it's not so far
away, it wasn't so far behind us.
And I think one of the craziestthings that I noticed when
writing this book was that itwas 100 years later.
How much has changed.
Look at the technologycomputers, cell phones.
(36:59):
This crime would have beensolved now, but it could have
been solved then, except thatpolitical forces corrupted it.
And I think what shocked me ishow much has changed and how
little has changed, and I justcan't believe that we're talking
about some of the things thatwe shouldn't be talking about
anymore in terms of women'srights.
(37:20):
You know, and then it was soscandalous that you know, skirts
were going from, you know,ankle length to knee length and
you know that women were cuttingtheir hair for the first time
in history.
So shocking to bob your hair.
Women should have long hair andit's like why are we still
talking about what women shouldbe wearing or what they should
be doing with their bodies orhow they should cut their hair?
(37:41):
Why are we still talking aboutthis?
How are we still talking aboutthis?
And it's only when we look atthe fact that wow, we were
actually still talking aboutthis 100 years ago that it
becomes so ludicrous as to landnow with oh my God, why are we
still talking about this?
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Yeah, it's exhausting .
It's exhausting, sarah.
While Broadway Butterflycenters around Dot King's murder
, there are a multitude ofcharacters surrounding her story
.
Dot was murdered in 1923.
And in your author notes whichare wonderful, by the way you
explain how the telling of thestory required incorporating
(38:16):
certain elements of society.
So, with this in mind, can youset the scene in Manhattan 1923,
and discuss what made the citya dangerous place for people of
color and how this related toDot's personality and her trust
in Ella Bradford, to Dot'spersonality and her trust in
Ella Bradford?
Dot and Ella's friendship mademe realize that Dot must have
(38:37):
been a really special lady, aswas Ella.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
I think she was a really special lady.
So I think we have to look atthe fact that Ella Bradford was
born in Jacksonville, florida,around 1920.
They were not keeping carefulbirth records then, especially
not for black women, so I wasnever able to find her birth
certificate and I, after sixyears of searching, did find her
(39:02):
wedding certificate and it justsays birth year 1900,
approximate.
And you know that says a lotabout society already right, who
we keep careful records of andwho we don't.
In general, it's really hard tofind historical records of
women, much harder than the menElla Bradford went to at the age
(39:22):
of 19 years old, went to theJacksonville train station and
sat in the quote unquote coloredwaiting room because she could
not legally sit in the whitewaiting room.
And she got on a train Northand she had to sit in the
colored car because she was notallowed to sit in the white car
(39:46):
and because black people werenot allowed to sit with white
people.
And she had to stand in line toget food because they only had
one or maybe two tables in theback for black customers.
And go north to Washington DC,philadelphia, new York and
Chicago and live in a world thatwas colder than down south,
(40:21):
that was faster than down south,where maybe they didn't know
anyone and had to leaveeverything familiar and dear and
that sounded like home, smelledlike home, felt like home
Behind.
To create for the chance tocreate a better life for
themselves and their children isunbelievably courageous.
And at the time Jacksonville,florida and down south was
(40:41):
legally segregated.
Colored water fountains, whitewater fountains.
Colored waiting rooms, whitewaiting rooms.
But New York was integrated.
Ella Bradford could sit whereshe wanted to on the train, and
that was something that I openedwith that scene of what would
it have been like to sit, to berelegated to colored waiting
rooms your whole life and thento get to sit where you want,
(41:03):
and do you ever forget what thatwas like?
And so Ella Bradford sittingwhere she wants on the train is
the opening scene in this book.
When then, a page later, shewalks into her place of work and
finds her friend and heremployer, Dot King, dead.
We have to remember that in 1923, the term racism did not exist.
The term sexism did not exist.
If you do a search for thosewords, nothing comes up.
(41:26):
And these things were legaleven in the legally integrated
city of New York.
So one thing that I learnedearly on is I interviewed a
professor at Boston College whowrote a book about how crime was
portrayed by the media at theturn of the century and he said
(41:49):
what are you doing for research?
I said I have thesesubscriptions to all these
newspaper archives and whatever.
He said you're not just readingthe articles, are you?
I said yeah, I'm reading thearticles, I'm clipping them out,
I'm downloading them, I'mphotocopying them.
He's like no, no, no, you gotto read the ads.
You got to read the ads.
That's what tells you what lifeis like.
And so I.
Hair care women want beautifulhair Digestion.
People worried about digestiona lot.
Some of the brands were thesame Maybelline, wrigley's,
(42:19):
chewing Gum, some of them you'venever heard of.
But the want ads were reallyinteresting because you could
post an ad and people didadvertising the color of the
skin of the person you wanted tohire and they would say you
know, either colored okay orcolored not okay, you know white
(42:42):
only.
But then they would also saywhat ethnicity they wanted.
They would say German okay,because this is right after
World War I.
Or no, germans, and it just is.
And they would say recentlylanded like you're an immigrant,
you're okay or you had to beestablished, and just the idea
that this was not only okay butwas out there in the one ads is
so shocking to our modern daybrains.
(43:04):
And Dot King hired a black womanand I think that is so
interesting.
And Ella Bradford was herclosest friend and knew the most
about her.
She knew all her secrets, sheknew where the money was, she
knew who the lovers were, sheknew who the enemies were.
She became the most valuablesource of information for the
police.
(43:25):
And I think that Dot, who's thedaughter of two Irish immigrants
, her mother works at a laundry.
Interestingly, her mothereventually owns her own laundry.
Her dad, who's dead, was anight watchman at Wanamaker's,
which is a department store likeKohl's or, you know, clover or
you know.
Finally, whatever you know, thedepartment store is in your
(43:45):
neck of the woods and I thinkthat because Dot was from a very
poor immigrant family who movedaround a lot, so there's some
housing insecurity, maybethere's some food insecurity.
She's one of four children, hersort of being looked down on as
poor and Irish and the daughterof immigrants.
I think she only.
I don't know if she even madeit through high school probably
(44:07):
gave her an empathy and anopenness to saying maybe some
people don't wanna hire a smart,you know black woman who came
here for a better life, but I dobecause I know what it's like
to be overlooked ordiscriminated against for being
poor, irish and white.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
Yeah, I would like to know a little bit more about
those two.
They just seemed, like you know, so perfectly matched.
Let's talk about the mainreporter in the story, julia,
and how the press shapesnarrative truth.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
It's certainly a subject that can't be overlooked
, right now, mandy, I am so gladthat you asked this question
because this was top of mind forme as well.
Again, going back to that thingthat I noticed about how much
has changed in 100 years and howlittle has changed in 100 years
, and what is really alsoconcerning about me, about now,
(44:57):
to me is the lack of trust injournalists.
Journalism is considered thequote unquote fourth estate and
that is supposed to be oursafeguard keeping the government
in line and holding electedofficials accountable.
And the idea that journalistsaren't exactly that which they
are and they should be holdingthemselves to that highest
(45:17):
ethics, I think is reallydangerous for us.
And what is interesting to meis that for people who read on
e-readers, you can see whichparagraphs they highlight the
most, and one of the mosthighlighted paragraphs is this
this is the first, the mostpopularly highlighted line Quote
(45:39):
facts were facts, but thestoryteller steered the
narrative and the narrativesteered public perception.
It was an invisible power, andso Julia realizes that words
matter and how you tell thestory matters.
So when she's covering thecrime before this and the
(46:02):
murdered man's mistress isaccused of his murder and she
teams up and the wife, theestranged wife steps in to
defend the mistress, who almostcertainly is guilty and did in
fact shoot this man, and hedeserved it.
The newspapers that are run bymen reporting are freaking out
about this and the headlinesthat they use are really ugly
(46:26):
about the women.
And Julia's headlines arereally different and I loved
that and I thought that is thepower of when you say you know
scorned woman, and I canactually do.
You want me to go grab the bookand read these, or no?
Yeah, I'd love to hear them,thanks, I'm going to go grab the
book and read these, or no?
Yeah, I'd love to hear them,thanks.
So this is where this isJulia's first chapter and she's,
(46:48):
you know, in this maledominated newsroom and it says,
you know that she'd become thelead crime reporter at the paper
and one of the best in thewhole city.
And yet the pressure was alwayson to prove she deserved to be
there and had the chutzpah tostay.
That pressure would not endwith the story or the next.
The necessity to arrive earlier, stay later and work twice as
hard to get paid half as much,simply for the privilege to be
(47:15):
there, trailed her like aconstant shadow.
But it also meant that shefound herself with the power to
shape the narrative of the news,not only by which story she
covered, but also by how shecovered them.
So when, like in this case, theaccused was a woman and the
Brooklyn Daily Times headlineshad crowed state flays Wells
woman at start of murder trial,julia had ensured that her paper
(47:35):
headlines trumpeted innkeeper'swife aids.
Miss Wells calls Roadhouse Jima wastrel, and so it's putting
the onus back on this man who isa batterer and an abusive, who
is an alcoholic and violent andhas beaten not only his wife but
his mistress to bloody pulpsmultiple times.
(47:59):
But the male reporters aren'ttalking about that.
Julia can.
Speaker 1 (48:04):
Yeah, that's really interesting, I love this stuff.
Speaker 2 (48:08):
I could talk about this all day.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
I'm going to switch things up a little bit, because
there's a couple of other thingsI would like to talk with you
about, and that are the roles inthe literary organizations and
festivals that you are a part of.
Let's start with the Mysteryand Thriller Mavens and then
move on to the Nantucket BookFoundation and Festival.
Speaker 2 (48:29):
I would love to yes.
So I started Mystery andThriller Mavens as an authors
helping authors initiative tohelp my fellow authors get the
word out about their books asthe pandemic descended.
So originally I had hoped thatthis book would come out on
March 15, which was theanniversary of the crime 2020.
Now let's remember March 15th2020, the day the world shut
(48:51):
down, thank God, my book.
I wasn't able to finish my bookand get a book deal by then,
but I kept thinking, oh my God,what if I had?
Because all of my writerfriends whose books were coming
out found themselves in thisterrible position where they
couldn't.
There were no events, everyonewas stuck at home and books were
considered non-necessity, soyou couldn't even order books.
So I was at home, all of myevents were canceled, and I
(49:14):
thought how can I help?
What if it had been me?
How can I help those who are inthis position?
And so I started interviewingauthors the night before their
books come out.
And now it's been five and ahalf years and I'm still doing
it.
So every Monday for hashtagmystery Monday, I interview
mystery authors the night beforetheir weeks come out, because
we all know Mondays can bemurder, and I try to make them a
(49:36):
little bit less painful and getyour week off to a killer start
, and my goal is to connectreaders with their favorite
authors and to introduce them totheir next favorite authors.
And a year into that effort ofdoing those interviews, I was
doing them by myself.
I partnered with a woman-ownedindependent bookstore, which is
(49:57):
one of five, I think, or it's afew dedicated I should say a few
dedicated mystery and thrillerbookstores in the country Murder
by the Book in Houston, texas,and that is run by McKenna
Jordan and she is a legend andit has been an honor and a
(50:18):
pleasure to be her partner incrime streaming interviews for
five and a half years now and Ican queue up pre-orders for
authors, stream my interviews tomy audience as well as her
audience, and it just worksreally well for everybody.
So it's been an honor and apleasure, gosh that's wonderful.
Speaker 1 (50:34):
So you and I started about the same time five years
ago for exactly the same reasons.
I think that's really cute.
Speaker 2 (50:41):
It's so great because things were so dark and so dire
then, and the fact that goodthings came out of it and people
sort of banded together and didwhat they could with what they
had is so lovely Doing good inthe world even in the darkest of
times.
Speaker 1 (50:56):
Yeah, humanity is capable of fabulous things,
right, okay, well, what aboutthe Nantucket Book Foundation
and Festival?
Speaker 2 (51:03):
Yes, so I got invited to be a featured author in the
Nantucket Book Festival for myfirst book in 2014.
And then they invited me backfor Broadway Butterfly and I
loved it.
And then I started attendingwhenever I could after that,
just as an attendee, because theauthors are always incredible,
the interviews are alwaysthorough and thoughtful and
(51:24):
interesting andthought-provoking, and so I kept
coming back as often as I couldand then, when Broadway
Butterfly came out, they invitedme back and then I started
piping up.
I said, oh, I have some ideas.
And I thought they're nevergoing to want to hear this.
But this overactive hand of minejust kept flapping up with
raising ideas and they saidthese are some really great
(51:45):
ideas.
Would you like to be ourco-chair for the festival?
And I felt so honored, couldn'tbelieve it, thought they got
the wrong person, but since thenhave invited me back every year
to co-chair, and I just signedon to co-chair next year's 2026
Festival, which I'm very excitedabout and I believe so deeply
in the work that the NantucketBook Foundation does, which puts
(52:08):
on this book festival everyyear, as well as does incredible
things like run a book boommeal, providing free books to
the on island residents yearround, has young writer award,
has a scholarship, has avisiting author program so that
the kids never feel that they're30 miles out to sea, has a
children's book day, gives out200 free books in English and
(52:30):
Spanish really inspiring stuff.
So they invited me to join theboard a year ago and I am
thrilled to serve as a boardmember since then as well, and
thank you for all the great workyou do.
Speaker 1 (52:42):
Let's talk books.
What are you currently?
Speaker 2 (52:43):
reading.
I am currently reading PatriciaCornwell's next Kay Scarpetta
book and I am also reading thatbook on your shelf right there,
which is also on my shelf Vianne, which is the prequel to
Chocolat, which I am just soexcited about.
Speaker 1 (53:01):
Excuse the pun, but it is a delicious book.
There's one other thing Iwanted to ask you about the work
you do for the Boston PublicLibrary, and I mean you and I
met through our mutual authorfriend, dawn Tripp, when we were
both at the San Diego WritersConference, and I know we're
going to meet up again at theBoston Book Festival in October.
It's going to be fun.
Speaker 2 (53:21):
I can't wait to meet up in Boston with you, mandy,
after spending time with you inSan Diego at the Writers
Conference there.
So, yes, so I am thrilled to bepart of the Boston Book
Festivals Literary Committee,and that is one of the biggest
book festivals in the world withover 20,000 attendees.
And then I also serve as aboard member for the Friends of
(53:42):
the South End Library, which isthe branch of the Boston Public
Library, and in that role Icurate and host the South End
Author Series, which has aspring series and a fall series,
where we have author eventslike this, with food and drinks
and bookish community.
And that again is the South Endbranch of the Boston Public
Library, and I'm just so honoredto be a board member and to
(54:06):
host the author series there aswell.
Speaker 1 (54:08):
Well, sarah, thank you for all the work you do with
all these organizations.
I know how hard it is and it'soften voluntary and I appreciate
the work you do.
Now are you working on anotherbook?
I am working.
Speaker 2 (54:23):
I'm so excited to be.
I just wrapped up my researchand I'm just starting to write
my third book and my secondhistorical thriller, and I can't
wait to delve into my next truecrime case in the fabulous
world of historical, whereeverything somehow seems more
glamorous.
Speaker 1 (54:43):
Yeah, glamorous, and in some cases uglier too.
I think yes, sarah.
Thank you so much for being onthe show.
And I did want to point out myhusband also read Broadway
Butterfly, because I was tellinghim about all the characters in
the book and he said I knowthose characters from Boardwalk
Empire.
Speaker 2 (55:01):
Yes, oh, thank you for noticing that.
For Boardwalk Empire fans, NakiJohnson was Dot King's former
lover and Ben Hilda Ferguson'slover and Partners in Crime with
Arnold Rothstein, Dot King'slandlord, and you might
recognize a few other charactersas well.
Speaker 1 (55:19):
Yeah, I love the characters, I love the story,
and that the story is true makesit even better.
Sarah, thanks for being on theBookshop Podcast and I look
forward to seeing you on October25th.
Speaker 2 (55:31):
Thank you so much you are I mean such a legend in the
author space and the book spaceas an incredible interviewer,
and I can attest to that, havingsat in on your sessions at the
San Diego Writers Festival andnow as being so honored to be
your podcast guest.
The questions that you ask areso fascinating and somehow get
to the nucleus of the subjectbut yet leave it open-ended
(55:54):
enough to really have room toorganically explore.
And interviewing is a reallytough skill set, actually, and
you are incredible.
I've gotten to see you inaction twice now, so I'm such a
huge fan of yours and I've beenhad so much fun talking to you,
so thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (56:09):
A pleasure Now I'm blushing.
You've been listening to myconversation with Sarah DeVello
about her book BroadwayButterfly.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media, and remember to
subscribe and leave a reviewwherever you listen to this
podcast.
To find out more about theBookshop Podcast, go to
(56:32):
thebookshoppodcastcom and makesure to subscribe and leave a
review wherever you listen tothe show.
You can also follow me at MandyJackson Beverly on Instagram
and Facebook and on YouTube atthe Bookshop Podcast.
If you have a favorite indiebookshop that you'd like to
suggest we have on the podcast,I'd love to hear from you via
(56:54):
the contact form atthebookshoppodcastcom.
The Bookshop Podcast is writtenand produced by me, mandy
Jackson Beverly, theme musicprovided by Brian Beverly, and
my executive assistant andgraphic designer is Adrian
Otterhan.
Thanks for listening and I'llsee you next time.
(57:29):
Thank you.
Hi, my name is Mandy Jackson-Beverly and I'm a
bibliophile.
Welcome to the Bookshop Podcast.
Each week, I present interviewswith authors, independent
bookshop owners and booksellersfrom around the globe and
publishing professionals.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media, and remember to
(00:33):
subscribe and leave a reviewwherever you listen to this
podcast.
You're listening to episode 308.
And eight, hi, I hope you'rehaving a great week.
My goodness, the world is acrazy place right now, and I
certainly find solace within thebooks I'm reading.
(00:55):
It's hard to believe that herewe are in 2025.
And people are still scared.
They're still fearful of whatthey can learn in books.
It's mind-blowing to me, andnot in a good way.
What we read, what we watch,what we listen to is our
business.
(01:15):
I don't think it's anybodyelse's, and I, for one,
certainly like to have thechoice of what I can read or
watch or listen to, withoutanybody having to tell me what
to do or what to listen to orread or watch.
The real fear is not that thiscould happen, but rather it is
happening now in the UnitedStates of America.
(01:37):
Here's a reminder of the wordsin the First Amendment Congress
shall make no law respecting anestablishment of religion or
prohibiting the free exercisethereof, or abridging the
freedom of speech or of thepress, or of the right of the
people peaceably to assemble andto petition the government for
(01:59):
a redress of grievances.
A reminder that my specialguest at the Lunch with an
Author Literary Series event inSanta Barbara on October 16th is
Bruce Holsinger.
Bruce and I will chat about hislatest novel, culpability, and
what he's been up to since hislast visit to the Santa Barbara
Lunch with an Author LiterarySeries in 2023.
(02:21):
I highly recommend readingHolsinger's Backlist, starting
with the Displacements.
It's a well-written, fast-paced, fabulous and timely novel.
Okay, now let's get on withthis week's conversation.
Sarah DiBello is a true crimewriter and the creator-host of
Mystery and Thriller Mavens, apopular author interview series
(02:43):
and interactive Facebook group.
Her most recent book, broadwayButterfly, a Thriller, was a CBS
New York Book Club pick.
An Entertainment Weekly MostAnticipated Book, was featured
in Vanity Fair and earnedstarred reviews from Booklist
and Library Journal.
Divello also serves as theco-chair of the Nantucket Book
(03:05):
Festival and on the board of theNantucket Book Foundation, on
the Literary Committee of theBoston Book Festival and on the
board of Friends of the SouthEnd Library, where she curates
the Author-Speaker Series Forher weekly Mystery and Thriller
Mavens live events.
Sarah has interviewed over 400authors, ranging from the
(03:25):
best-selling and world-renownedto the buzziest debuts.
In her spare time she loves toteach yoga, cook and eat, garden
and go for leisurely walks withher husband and their beloved
rescue mutt Paluda.
Hi, sarah, and welcome to theshow.
It's great to see you again.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
I'm so thrilled to be here, mandy, I'm so excited to
chat with you.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Well, I have so many questions to ask you, so let's
get started.
I'd like to begin with learningabout you and your university
life.
Studying communications with asemester abroad at City of St
George's University of London in1997, followed in 1998 with a
semester abroad at theUniversity of Queensland, in my
(04:06):
home country.
Did you have fun in Australia,oh, Mandy?
Speaker 2 (04:11):
I loved Australia so much that I tried to move there
and the citizenship was.
It was tough to get at the timebut I loved Australia so much
that I even considered getting atattoo of the Australian flag
over my heart and ultimatelydidn't do that.
But Australia resides in myheart as such an incredible,
(04:34):
magical place and I loved everybit of it, from the red sands in
the middle to the beautifulwaters in Port Douglas, the
Cairns, up and down the coast,melbourne, the Gold Coast,
brisbane, where I lived, sydneyoh my gosh, I hiked the Olgas, I
(04:57):
went to Arras Rock, uluru.
I mean, I love Australia somuch and I continue to see the
family that I lived next door tohave become lifelong friends
and I talk to them all the timeand see them all the time and I
love my Aussies.
They're my Aussie family.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
I think you and I need to go down there and plan
some kind of a I don't know abook festival down there.
Wouldn't that be fun, oh mygosh.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yes, at UQ, at UQ, let's go.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
I'm in.
Okay, let's get back to you.
You worked in public relations,marketing and as a yoga
instructor before pivoting tothe realm of books.
Did you feel your identityevolve across these different
careers?
Speaker 2 (05:38):
That is such a great question.
And you know, mandy, I knewfrom the time that I was five
years old that I wanted to be awriter and actually it's
probably more like eight,because I thought that was when
I figured out that those bookson the library shelves didn't
just appear there, they werewritten by actual people.
But I grew up in a super poorfamily and books were luxury
(06:04):
items, which is why we went tothe library, because we couldn't
afford to buy books.
So every two weeks we went tothe library, we filled our
grocery bags with books, I tookthem home, I read them all and
then two weeks later we go backand repeat the process, and when
I ran out of books I wouldreread the entire children's
section, then the adult section,ya section, and work my way
into the adult section.
And I love books.
(06:26):
I was a voracious reader andthen I wanted to write books.
But because I grew up in suchchallenging circumstances, I
didn't feel like someone like mecould be a writer.
And I was the first one in myfamily to go to college and I
worked my way through college inthe university's public
(06:47):
relations office and when I came, and in spite of working my way
through, I still had to takeout a ton of student loans
because, unlike Australia,education is not affordable in
the United States.
Australia has an incredibleeducation system where they
really make it accessible andaffordable for all of their
students, which is one of themany, many things that I love
(07:08):
about Australia.
And so I came out and I had aton of students' debts and I
needed to get a reliable andhigh-paying job to pay those
student loans back andeventually to be, able to afford
a car payment and a mortgageand all of those real life
expenses that most of us have.
So I took that experience that Ihad garnered working my way
(07:30):
through college and went rightinto the corporate world working
in public relations andmarketing.
Now I knew on day one, by 9.15am, that this was not for me,
but it didn't feel like I had achoice because I had the student
loans and rent and all theother expenses of living to pay.
(07:51):
So I stayed and I worked thatjob and jobs like it for 13
years and I knew all the whilethat my heart yearned to write,
but it didn't feel possible withbills to pay.
And finally, a couple of thingscoalesced in my life where I
(08:12):
turned 30, which is the age thatmy teenage self and my young 20
self thought was the magicalage that I would have everything
figured out.
I would have a great wardrobe,obviously, a great boyfriend,
obviously, and a great careerthat I loved.
And I turned 30 and none ofthose things were really
(08:34):
happening.
I had a great boyfriend, whoeventually became a great
husband, but I didn't have agreat wardrobe, mostly because I
realized I was terrible atstyle and I hated my job.
At the same time, my mother wasdiagnosed with terminal breast
cancer and given six months tolive, and this was such a shock
(08:59):
because no one in my family hadever had cancer, and it was so
systemically shocking that shehad to stop and think about what
did she want to do with thoselast six months.
And I started thinking oh myGod, what would I do if I only
had six months to live?
As I was watching her wrestlethrough these decisions and then
it occurred to me that none ofus really know how much time we
(09:19):
have left.
I could step outside after thisinterview and get hit by a bus.
So how will I have spent thelast six months or last six
minutes or six years of my life?
And if I'm not doing what Iwould want to be doing in those
last hypothetical six months,why?
am I doing it at all, when Icould get hit by a bus in five
(09:40):
minutes, and it was this hugewake-up call.
The third thing that happenedthat was really motivating was
that I worked in financialservices, which at the time was
a super male-dominated field,and I worked in public relations
and marketing, which was theone little enclave where there
(10:00):
could be a woman in leadershipand I would walk in.
I was usually the only woman inthe room.
There'd be 90 guys, one me, andsometimes there would be one
other woman and she would be myboss.
So in my mind I'm thinking, hey, sister, let's be here together
in this world of men.
And she was thinking I hope youdie, oh my goodness, and I'm
(10:24):
going to stab you with the sharppoint of my stiletto and step
over your dead body to getmyself to the next level.
And I happen to work under aparade of what can only be
described as stupendously badfemale bosses.
And so these three things ofdealing with this backstabbing
and bitchery in a male-dominatedworkplace, with this
(10:46):
backstabbing and bitchery in amale-dominated workplace, my
mother having only six months tolive, and this secret lifelong
desire to become a writer,really started to coalesce
around the age of 30.
And I thought I got to get outof here.
I got to make a change and Igot to live a life that's
authentic to me and eventually Istarted saving my money and I
started making a plan andeventually I was able to quit my
corporate job and start writingmy book and, as an additional
(11:06):
source of stable income, Istarted teaching yoga.
So it took me five years towrite my first book.
I was teaching yoga the wholetime and that book is where, in
the MMI, it came out in 2013.
And it is about exactly thisthe you know, finding your path
and stepping away from what isfamiliar, convenient, easy,
(11:26):
expected, lucrative all of thesereassuring words to what is
real and terrifying and excitingand thrilling and authentic to
you.
Then I started writing my secondbook, which was Broadway
Butterfly.
That took me 10 years, keptteaching yoga and then I
actually took those skills of PRand marketing.
Because I quickly realized thatmost took those skills of PR
and marketing, because I quicklyrealized that authors most
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authors are really struggle withPR and marketing and I started
putting them to use doingmarketing for authors and
organizations and book festivals.
And so the identity itselfnever changed I always wanted to
be a writer.
I always yearned to be a writer.
(12:07):
I always saw myself first andforemost as a writer, but the
external circumstances didn'tlet that happen for a while.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
But it ended up being okay, because the skills that I
garnered along the way ended upcoming in quite handy when I
finally was able to make thatleap to author and I think it's
great when you reach a certainstage and you can look back and
understand why you were learningthese other skills that at the
moment, you might have thought.
I don't know what I'm doinghere, but okay, I'll do it,
(12:37):
Because, as an author especiallyin 2025, the skills you've
learned are now essential forauthors, right?
Yes, In 2013, your book when inthe Om Am I?
One Woman's Journey from theCorporate World to the Yoga Mat
was published.
Did you find that spiritualpractices like yoga and
(12:58):
mindfulness transformed not justlife choices but narrative
style and discipline?
Speaker 2 (13:10):
And that is why you are the renowned interviewer
that you are.
Mandy Jackson, beverly, yes,and in my you know how long has
it been?
15 years of doing this orhowever long it has been?
No one has ever asked me that,and I love that you asked me
that and the answer is aresounding yes, because when you
are writing, there's a lot toworry about.
Will I sell this book?
(13:32):
Will I find an agent?
Will my agent be able to sellthis book?
Will I get a publisher Assumingall of that happens when the
book comes out?
Will I get good reviews?
Will people like it?
Will I sell copies?
There's a lot of clutter and alot of worries that could really
bog a creative person and awriter down, but you can't
create in that state of chaosand worries.
(13:53):
A calm mind is a creative mindand I use yoga as a tool to calm
my mind and enter a state ofgroundedness and focus and
calmness and clarity, so that Ican put aside all of those
worries and just write the story.
And so that's the first way inwhich it helps.
(14:14):
The second way in which ithelps is that writing is often
uncomfortable because of theseworries and because you don't
know what's going to happen.
Will you be able to finish thebook, will you be able to sell
the book, will you be able totell the book in a way that will
garner good reviews or sales,or whatever it is.
So sitting in that discomfortis hard, and yoga is a tool that
(14:40):
helps you to sit in discomfort,be present in it and keep going
.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
And plus, it keeps you healthy mind, body, spirit.
Exactly Now, because you'vetraveled quite a bit and lived
in other countries, how hastravel and global perspectives
influenced your storytelling?
And let's face it, you can geton the internet now and look up
what a particular street lookedlike in 1650 or something like
(15:08):
that in London.
But I feel that visiting othercountries, and especially living
in other countries, even ifthey are English-speaking
countries, allows you to get afeel of the culture of that
history, how things smell in thestreet.
You know all that kind of thing, absolutely yes in two specific
(15:28):
ways.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
The first is that it's very easy for all of us to
stay where we are comfortable,where it is familiar, convenient
and easy.
And when you stay in a placewhere everyone looks like you,
sounds like you, speaks yourlanguage, has your food, has
(15:50):
your same accent, has your sameproducts, your same brands,
where you know where everythingis, where you know where the
pharmacy is, you have yourdoctor, you have the grocery
store, you know where everythingis and you're comfortable there
, it's very easy to stay there.
And I think there is nothingmore valuable than getting out
(16:12):
of your cozy corner and out intothe world to help you to
realize that A there is a bigand beautiful world out there.
There is a big and beautifulworld out there and it helps you
to realize your unique place init and to cultivate empathy for
those who are different.
And I think that empathy is keynot only to writing, but also
(16:40):
just to living a wholehearted,open-hearted human life.
And it's very easy to think thateveryone is like you when you
never leave your little cozycorner of the world, that
everyone thinks like you orlooks like you or votes like you
, or that this is so obvious orthis is how it's always been or
this is how it should be.
(17:02):
But when you get out in theworld and you are other, you are
different.
You're the one who looksdifferent, you're the one who
sounds different, you're the onewho doesn't speak the language.
You're the one who has to askfor help and you can't speak the
language, you can't rememberthe word and you're looking for
the translation.
And it's humbling and it's hard, and it makes you kinder and
(17:25):
more empathetic to those who,when you're back in your corner
of the world, are having thatsame struggle.
And it also makes you justrealize that when you know,
specifically as a writer, whenyou're writing people who are
not like you, that you canimagine and start to viscerally
feel what that would be like.
So, as a creative, but alsojust as a human, it's so
(17:47):
important to get out in theworld, it's so important to just
go.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Yeah, I completely agree.
Something that stood out to mewhile I was reading your novel
Broadway Butterfly is how wellyou set scenes, and I was
wondering if you'd like to readthe paragraph from page 97,
starting with back at the news.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Oh, I would be so honored.
And thank you for your verykind words, mandy.
This is one of my favorite, oneof my favorite paragraphs.
I can't believe you picked it.
So here we go Back at the news.
The city desk bustled, asalways, a cacophony of ringing
phones and overlappingconversations.
Press agents lurked, waitingfor their chance.
Reporters rushed out in pursuitof a source or rushed back in
(18:31):
fresh off a tip, everyone alwaysin a hurry.
The floor, as usual, was filthy, littered with detritus, ash,
cigarette butts, scraps of paper, containers of coffee and
remnants of sandwiches left in ahurry and never disposed of.
The old building's army of micewould be scurrying toward the
feast later and the copy boyswould reach for their makeshift
(18:53):
rubber band slingshots andpaperclips to wage their war
against the vermin.
Julia took her seat and tuckedinto writing her story.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Seedlessness.
Now you know why I love thatparagraph.
I mean, it completely sets themood.
The scene came alive.
I saw it in my mind as if I waswatching a film and the camera
was panning around the room.
An important part of writing isto be able to center yourself
so that you are in the mind ofthe person you're writing about.
(19:26):
The way Julia looks around theroom and this is what she sees
and you can tell by the lastsentence that you read about
Julia sitting down to write isthat she, like the author you,
has actually centered herself,and now she's about to start
writing.
So let's get back to yoga.
Would you say that yogapractice helped cultivate
(19:49):
presence, the moment andimagination in your writing?
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Yes, yes, 1000 times yes.
And what I really love aboutthis paragraph that you picked
is that every single one ofthose things that I mention are
1000% historically accurate anddrawn from the historical record
.
So I had found a memoir by oneof the other reporters that
(20:15):
Julia had worked alongside, aswell as a biography of Philip
Payne, her editor, and theytalked about how filthy the
floor was and how you know thatthey people, of course they
smoked like chimneys, all ofthem.
You know lung cancer, neverheard of it, and they would just
throw their cigarettes on thefloor and they would just, you
(20:38):
know, ball up the paper andthrow it on the floor and ash
their cigarette you know theircigarettes on the floor, or just
put the sandwich on the floor.
And of course, there was a mouseproblem, which is just so
disgusting I mean, it's justfilthy.
And they talked about the copyboys who would sit on the
benches and chase these mice.
And as someone who's scared ofmice, I mean there's nothing
(20:59):
more horrifying than picturingmyself like Julia trying to type
her article and little armiesof mice are scurrying around her
feet.
That would be very hard for meto work in that situation, mandy
, but I can picture it.
I can smell the cigarette smoke, I can hear the scurrying and
the squeaking and the shouts ofcopy boy and the copy boys
(21:22):
running over their littleleather shoes, pounding on the
floor, you know, to get the copyand run it out to the printer.
I mean, it's just it's.
I can transport myself thereimaginatively and visually, and
I want to transport my readersthere too, which you do
beautifully.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
You spent years researching and writing Broadway
Butterfly.
I'm interested to know whatinitially attracted you to the
story and what kept you going.
Let's face it, it takes a lotof courage and determination to
finish a novel.
So for anyone who's writing anovel and they're into year
(21:59):
three and you're thinking toyourself, oh my God, when am I
going to finish this thing Ithink it's helpful to know what
kept other writers going.
So that's my question to you.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
You're three years in .
Okay, perfect, you're a thirdof the way there.
Keep going, keep going.
Take a snack break and thenkeep going.
Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
It's exactly what you have to keep doing.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Yeah, exactly.
So I was home for Thanksgivingin Philadelphia visiting my aunt
and the day after Thanksgiving,Black Friday, not a lot
happening if you're not outhitting the sales which I am not
, because I hate crowds, andthat would be a nightmare almost
as bad as the mice runningaround my feet in Julia's
(22:44):
newsroom at the city desk.
So we're sitting around, we'rehaving our leftover turkey
sandwiches and mashed potatoesand whatever.
And my uncles start reminiscingthat back in the 1960s they
used to cut classes and sneakout of high school and they used
to go over to the old castleand they would sit on the stairs
(23:05):
of the castle and they wouldsneak cigarettes and sneak beer.
And my first thought was youknow, these are my stately
uncles.
I was so shocked to think ofthem, as you know, truant
students cutting class andsmoking cigarettes.
And I said, oh my, you guyswere really bad.
You were the bad boys ofCatholic high school.
(23:25):
And then my second thought waswait, did you say castle?
I'm sorry, castle, what castle?
And they said, yes, it's beentorn down.
Now, it was torn down in the1980s, but back in the 60s there
was a grand estate, a castle,an actual, a veritable mansion
(23:47):
half a mile away and my auntlives in a very normal, very
modest suburban neighborhoodwhere everything is a split
level ranch circa 1950, sixsteps up, six steps down, and
every house kind of looks thesame.
And so the idea that there wasa castle around was so crazy.
So, needless to say I needed togo take a look at this castle.
(24:10):
So all 11 of us pile into threecars and we caravan over to the
next suburban development, youknow, half a mile down the
street where in the between theSubarus and the tulip beds and
the split level ranches, Mandy,are the ruins of an actual
castle.
That's crazy.
And there are headless statuesof Diana and Zeus and the
(24:34):
remnants of a fountain that oncegurgled, and in the middle of a
soccer field is a grand curvingstaircase going to nothing,
coming from nothing.
And in someone's backyard arethese six 50-foot tall pillars
up to the sky, to nothing.
And it's so eerie, it is sobizarre to stand on what you
(25:00):
know was the foundation of thishouse, this enormous mansion,
147 rooms, and no, you couldjust feel in the same way that
when you visit a battlefield allthe hairs on the back of your
neck go up.
You're like some stuff happenedhere.
Okay, Some stuff went down, andso I went home and I learned
everything about this castle the147 rooms, 28 bathrooms, 24
(25:22):
fireplaces, its own ballroom,its own gymnasium, its own radio
station, its own movie theater,its own ballroom, 70 full-time
gardeners just to maintain theproperty.
These incredible statisticsyou're like, well, that's really
cool, but I'm not in the castleraiding business, so I moved on
.
But then I couldn't stopthinking about this castle and
(25:45):
this family and I could feel inthe marrow of my bones that
there was a story here.
And so I went back aroundValentine's Day, so three months
later, and I found this 1952book and it was something like
Scandalous Philadelphia, the 100most shocking things to ever
rock the Quaker city.
Now, obviously it doesn't takethat much to rock a Quaker.
(26:08):
Bless their hearts.
But this was scandalous becausethere was one page and one
paragraph that said you know, oh, the Stotesbury family, who
lived in this castle, who wasone of the 50 wealthiest
families in the world and whosethe father was the founding
partner of JP Morgan, with MrMorgan himself, with JP himself,
found themselves in anuncomfortable situation when the
(26:32):
son-in-law's mistress turned upmurdered in her bed in Midtown
Manhattan, and I got goosebumpsall over my body and I said
that's my story and I dove downthe research hole and it just
kept getting crazier.
And Dot King, who is themurdered scandalous flapper
(26:52):
found on West 57th Streetwearing a lace negligee that
barely reached her knees, youknow was fascinating.
And then Julia, the leadreporter that covered the case
at a time when less than 20percent of American women worked
outside the home and 1 percentof newspaper people who worked
in the newspaper world werewomen.
(27:13):
Of people who worked in thenewspaper world were women.
There were 3,500 members of theNew York Newspaper Union, 35
members of the Women inNewspaper Club, and she's my
main point of view, my maincharacter.
And then Detective John DCoughlin, who's the head of the
NYPD detectives unit, with 1,200men reporting to him.
(27:33):
And the New York, who's thehead of the NYPD detectives unit
, with 1200 men reporting to him.
And the New Yorker did aprofile of him in 1926 and
called him the cop in the silkshirt because he would only wear
silk shirts and he had thisincredible photographic memory.
Now we would call himneurodiverse.
Then they said back then theycalled him that poor jerk
burdened with a terrible memorybecause he couldn't stop
(27:57):
remembering things.
So if you named an address, hewould start spouting out every
crime committed around therewithout being able to control.
He would just start spoutingout this long list of crimes
because he had it all in hishead, which I think is so
fascinating, but they were like.
That poor guy is odd.
He's the second lead creationand the world wake of the civil
(28:40):
war who came north and east toescape legalized racism and
discrimination down south.
And she's my third point ofview, and then Frances
Stotesbury is my fourth point ofview, and it's what kept me
going for those 10 long years is, first of all, I didn't know it
was going to take me 10 years,so I kept thinking I'm almost
done.
Oh my gosh Like a greyhound,reaching for that bone, racing
around the track.
I'm almost done.
(29:00):
But it was also learning howextraordinary these people were
and feeling the solemnity andthe burden and the honor of
being the one to tell theirstories, these real people, and
I just kept thinking if in 100years, someone wanted to tell my
story and they won't becauseI'm not that interesting but I
(29:21):
would be like don't rush.
Don't rush, like you know,don't get me on my best day,
don't get me on my worst day.
Capture the fullness of myhumanity, the complexity of my
humanity, and honoring them andtrying to do that was what kept
me going.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
And that brings up another question for me Can you
speak about the ethicalresponsibility in writing?
True crime inspired fiction andbalancing fact, speculation and
sensitivity, for example,changing names etc.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Thank you so much for raising that that is so
important.
And because they are realpeople, you really want to take
the time to get it right.
So for once, my good oldanxiety and OCD came in handy,
because I was going to get itright, mandy, and if it took me
10 years, I was going to get itright.
(30:13):
So I accumulated over 1800pieces of original research and
I stand firmly on the shouldersof my research and I can tell
you exactly the cost of daycareis accurate.
I mean, everything down to thecost of daycare per day is
factually accurate.
Because I really took the timeto get it right, because these
(30:34):
are real people and you have tohold their humanity gently and
carefully and really take thetime and care to get it right.
And when you are tellinganyone's true story, you want to
invest that time and don't takethe shortcuts.
True story you want to investthat time in there.
(30:55):
You don't take.
You know, don't take theshortcuts.
I didn't change anybody's name,except for the sort of
non-necessary characters in thepolice station, because I didn't
have another 10 years to makesure that I was capturing them
in the wholeness of theirhumanity, because they only had
three lines or whatever.
But I think that you know again, it's really about taking the
(31:21):
time and the care and holdingyourself to the highest ethical
standard that you would want astranger to hold themselves to
if they were writing your story.
The other thing that you wantto be really careful about is
when you are writing incharacters and voices that are
outside of your own experienceas I was you want to go to
(31:44):
expert sources for them.
So specifically, I'm thinkingabout Ella Bradford, and Ella
Bradford is a black Americanwoman and I will never know what
that experience is like to beblack in America, because I have
the privilege of walkingthrough life as a white woman
(32:05):
and so I will never knowpersonally the depths of that
experience.
So I went to expert sources.
I worked with my honorary auntsBernadine Nash-McClam Dr
Bernadine Nash-McClam, phd, mdiv, mba from Harvard who is the
(32:25):
most learned and brilliant womanI know, who holds a PhD and a
master's in divinity fromHarvard and an MBA from Harvard
and who is a black Americanwoman.
And I said I have no ego aboutthis.
Tell me how to tell Ella'sstory.
And I worked with her over thecourse of nine years to get it
(32:48):
right.
And I think you have to honorthat.
When someone who is in thatperson's experience, who's
telling you this is how it is,you have to say yes, absolutely,
and thank you and not getdefensive and take your ego out
of it and never think that yourimagination is better than their
lived experience.
And when she says you know,this is not how a black woman
(33:10):
talks, I say thank you, tell mehow a black woman talks and
really take the time to get itright.
And then I hired my ownsensitivity reader because I
don't ever want one person tohave to speak.
It wouldn't be fair to ask youto speak, for what is the
experience?
What's it like to be anAustralian woman?
You can only speak to yourexperience of being an
Australian woman.
What's it like for me to be awhite woman in America.
(33:31):
I can only speak to myexperience of being in the
Northeast, you know, so I can'tspeak for that whole experience,
and so I would never ask aperson of color to say you know,
tell me what it's like to beblack in America.
It's like, tell me what yourexperience was like.
And then I got to hire, spendmy time and energy and money to
hire a sensitivity reader.
(33:52):
I hired two because, again, I'mtaking care, and then my
publisher also hired asensitivity reader because I
really wanted to get it rightand to honor the truth of this
experience.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
And honestly I think it matters to the readers.
Most of my friends, who arereaders anyway, we appreciate
the research that goes intohistorical fiction.
Sarah, why is it that forgottenstories like Dot King's matter,
and what's at stake inresurrecting history's silent
voices?
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Oh, my God, I love this question so much.
So if I could, mandy, I wouldwrite books like this for every
single unsolved crime in theworld, because I believe that
every single person who has beenharmed and wronged in this way
deserves to have justice, andtheir families deserve to have
(34:47):
justice, and they deserve tohave their voices heard.
And so, if I could, I would doevery single one of them,
because it's a crime, if punintended, that they're first
harmed in this way of havingtheir life ended and not on
their terms, and then they'reharmed secondarily by not
getting justice and by beingdenied justice and not getting
(35:09):
their voice heard in the worldas more than just a victim.
And so that's why this matters,and I noticed that there's a
really dangerous trend right nowin America of wanting to turn
away from history and turn awayfrom the ugly parts of history,
and specifically I'm thinkingabout the part of the history of
(35:32):
enslaved Black Americans is nowa paragraph, I think, in sixth
grade history books, and somepeople in this country don't
want to talk about the Holocaust, they don't want to talk about
slavery, they don't want to talkabout anything ugly and hard,
and I think that's reallydangerous.
And here's why and hard, and Ithink that's really dangerous.
(35:54):
And here's why, if we don'tlook at our ugly and if we don't
look at our hard, we are nevergoing to do better going forward
.
We are doomed to repeatourselves.
And, mandy, we have to dobetter going forward.
We have to do better goingforward.
And the only way we're going todo better going forward is if
we look back, see what we didwrong, acknowledge it and then,
(36:15):
looking at those ramificationsand harm, use that as motivation
to make different choices goingforward.
And so, as I see history notbeing honored and as I also see
history repeating itself, now itfeels more important than ever
to write about this in thecontext of a page turning
(36:37):
hopefully page turning thrilleror historical book of any genre,
so that we can really start torealize that it's not so far
away, it wasn't so far behind us.
And I think one of the craziestthings that I noticed when
writing this book was that itwas 100 years later.
How much has changed.
Look at the technologycomputers, cell phones.
(36:59):
This crime would have beensolved now, but it could have
been solved then, except thatpolitical forces corrupted it.
And I think what shocked me ishow much has changed and how
little has changed, and I justcan't believe that we're talking
about some of the things thatwe shouldn't be talking about
anymore in terms of women'srights.
(37:20):
You know, and then it was soscandalous that you know, skirts
were going from, you know,ankle length to knee length and
you know that women were cuttingtheir hair for the first time
in history.
So shocking to bob your hair.
Women should have long hair andit's like why are we still
talking about what women shouldbe wearing or what they should
be doing with their bodies orhow they should cut their hair?
(37:41):
Why are we still talking aboutthis?
How are we still talking aboutthis?
And it's only when we look atthe fact that wow, we were
actually still talking aboutthis 100 years ago that it
becomes so ludicrous as to landnow with oh my God, why are we
still talking about this?
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Yeah, it's exhausting .
It's exhausting, sarah.
While Broadway Butterflycenters around Dot King's murder
, there are a multitude ofcharacters surrounding her story
.
Dot was murdered in 1923.
And in your author notes whichare wonderful, by the way you
explain how the telling of thestory required incorporating
(38:16):
certain elements of society.
So, with this in mind, can youset the scene in Manhattan 1923,
and discuss what made the citya dangerous place for people of
color and how this related toDot's personality and her trust
in Ella Bradford, to Dot'spersonality and her trust in
Ella Bradford?
Dot and Ella's friendship mademe realize that Dot must have
(38:37):
been a really special lady, aswas Ella.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
I think she was a really special lady.
So I think we have to look atthe fact that Ella Bradford was
born in Jacksonville, florida,around 1920.
They were not keeping carefulbirth records then, especially
not for black women, so I wasnever able to find her birth
certificate and I, after sixyears of searching, did find her
(39:02):
wedding certificate and it justsays birth year 1900,
approximate.
And you know that says a lotabout society already right, who
we keep careful records of andwho we don't.
In general, it's really hard tofind historical records of
women, much harder than the menElla Bradford went to at the age
(39:22):
of 19 years old, went to theJacksonville train station and
sat in the quote unquote coloredwaiting room because she could
not legally sit in the whitewaiting room.
And she got on a train Northand she had to sit in the
colored car because she was notallowed to sit in the white car
(39:46):
and because black people werenot allowed to sit with white
people.
And she had to stand in line toget food because they only had
one or maybe two tables in theback for black customers.
And go north to Washington DC,philadelphia, new York and
Chicago and live in a world thatwas colder than down south,
(40:21):
that was faster than down south,where maybe they didn't know
anyone and had to leaveeverything familiar and dear and
that sounded like home, smelledlike home, felt like home
Behind.
To create for the chance tocreate a better life for
themselves and their children isunbelievably courageous.
And at the time Jacksonville,florida and down south was
(40:41):
legally segregated.
Colored water fountains, whitewater fountains.
Colored waiting rooms, whitewaiting rooms.
But New York was integrated.
Ella Bradford could sit whereshe wanted to on the train, and
that was something that I openedwith that scene of what would
it have been like to sit, to berelegated to colored waiting
rooms your whole life and thento get to sit where you want,
(41:03):
and do you ever forget what thatwas like?
And so Ella Bradford sittingwhere she wants on the train is
the opening scene in this book.
When then, a page later, shewalks into her place of work and
finds her friend and heremployer, Dot King, dead.
We have to remember that in 1923, the term racism did not exist.
The term sexism did not exist.
If you do a search for thosewords, nothing comes up.
(41:26):
And these things were legaleven in the legally integrated
city of New York.
So one thing that I learnedearly on is I interviewed a
professor at Boston College whowrote a book about how crime was
portrayed by the media at theturn of the century and he said
(41:49):
what are you doing for research?
I said I have thesesubscriptions to all these
newspaper archives and whatever.
He said you're not just readingthe articles, are you?
I said yeah, I'm reading thearticles, I'm clipping them out,
I'm downloading them, I'mphotocopying them.
He's like no, no, no, you gotto read the ads.
You got to read the ads.
That's what tells you what lifeis like.
And so I.
Hair care women want beautifulhair Digestion.
People worried about digestiona lot.
Some of the brands were thesame Maybelline, wrigley's,
(42:19):
chewing Gum, some of them you'venever heard of.
But the want ads were reallyinteresting because you could
post an ad and people didadvertising the color of the
skin of the person you wanted tohire and they would say you
know, either colored okay orcolored not okay, you know white
(42:42):
only.
But then they would also saywhat ethnicity they wanted.
They would say German okay,because this is right after
World War I.
Or no, germans, and it just is.
And they would say recentlylanded like you're an immigrant,
you're okay or you had to beestablished, and just the idea
that this was not only okay butwas out there in the one ads is
so shocking to our modern daybrains.
(43:04):
And Dot King hired a black womanand I think that is so
interesting.
And Ella Bradford was herclosest friend and knew the most
about her.
She knew all her secrets, sheknew where the money was, she
knew who the lovers were, sheknew who the enemies were.
She became the most valuablesource of information for the
police.
(43:25):
And I think that Dot, who's thedaughter of two Irish immigrants
, her mother works at a laundry.
Interestingly, her mothereventually owns her own laundry.
Her dad, who's dead, was anight watchman at Wanamaker's,
which is a department store likeKohl's or, you know, clover or
you know.
Finally, whatever you know, thedepartment store is in your
(43:45):
neck of the woods and I thinkthat because Dot was from a very
poor immigrant family who movedaround a lot, so there's some
housing insecurity, maybethere's some food insecurity.
She's one of four children, hersort of being looked down on as
poor and Irish and the daughterof immigrants.
I think she only.
I don't know if she even madeit through high school probably
(44:07):
gave her an empathy and anopenness to saying maybe some
people don't wanna hire a smart,you know black woman who came
here for a better life, but I dobecause I know what it's like
to be overlooked ordiscriminated against for being
poor, irish and white.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
Yeah, I would like to know a little bit more about
those two.
They just seemed, like you know, so perfectly matched.
Let's talk about the mainreporter in the story, julia,
and how the press shapesnarrative truth.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
It's certainly a subject that can't be overlooked
, right now, mandy, I am so gladthat you asked this question
because this was top of mind forme as well.
Again, going back to that thingthat I noticed about how much
has changed in 100 years and howlittle has changed in 100 years
, and what is really alsoconcerning about me, about now,
(44:57):
to me is the lack of trust injournalists.
Journalism is considered thequote unquote fourth estate and
that is supposed to be oursafeguard keeping the government
in line and holding electedofficials accountable.
And the idea that journalistsaren't exactly that which they
are and they should be holdingthemselves to that highest
(45:17):
ethics, I think is reallydangerous for us.
And what is interesting to meis that for people who read on
e-readers, you can see whichparagraphs they highlight the
most, and one of the mosthighlighted paragraphs is this
this is the first, the mostpopularly highlighted line Quote
(45:39):
facts were facts, but thestoryteller steered the
narrative and the narrativesteered public perception.
It was an invisible power, andso Julia realizes that words
matter and how you tell thestory matters.
So when she's covering thecrime before this and the
(46:02):
murdered man's mistress isaccused of his murder and she
teams up and the wife, theestranged wife steps in to
defend the mistress, who almostcertainly is guilty and did in
fact shoot this man, and hedeserved it.
The newspapers that are run bymen reporting are freaking out
about this and the headlinesthat they use are really ugly
(46:26):
about the women.
And Julia's headlines arereally different and I loved
that and I thought that is thepower of when you say you know
scorned woman, and I canactually do.
You want me to go grab the bookand read these, or no?
Yeah, I'd love to hear them,thanks, I'm going to go grab the
book and read these, or no?
Yeah, I'd love to hear them,thanks.
So this is where this isJulia's first chapter and she's,
(46:48):
you know, in this maledominated newsroom and it says,
you know that she'd become thelead crime reporter at the paper
and one of the best in thewhole city.
And yet the pressure was alwayson to prove she deserved to be
there and had the chutzpah tostay.
That pressure would not endwith the story or the next.
The necessity to arrive earlier, stay later and work twice as
hard to get paid half as much,simply for the privilege to be
(47:15):
there, trailed her like aconstant shadow.
But it also meant that shefound herself with the power to
shape the narrative of the news,not only by which story she
covered, but also by how shecovered them.
So when, like in this case, theaccused was a woman and the
Brooklyn Daily Times headlineshad crowed state flays Wells
woman at start of murder trial,julia had ensured that her paper
(47:35):
headlines trumpeted innkeeper'swife aids.
Miss Wells calls Roadhouse Jima wastrel, and so it's putting
the onus back on this man who isa batterer and an abusive, who
is an alcoholic and violent andhas beaten not only his wife but
his mistress to bloody pulpsmultiple times.
(47:59):
But the male reporters aren'ttalking about that.
Julia can.
Speaker 1 (48:04):
Yeah, that's really interesting, I love this stuff.
Speaker 2 (48:08):
I could talk about this all day.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
I'm going to switch things up a little bit, because
there's a couple of other thingsI would like to talk with you
about, and that are the roles inthe literary organizations and
festivals that you are a part of.
Let's start with the Mysteryand Thriller Mavens and then
move on to the Nantucket BookFoundation and Festival.
Speaker 2 (48:29):
I would love to yes.
So I started Mystery andThriller Mavens as an authors
helping authors initiative tohelp my fellow authors get the
word out about their books asthe pandemic descended.
So originally I had hoped thatthis book would come out on
March 15, which was theanniversary of the crime 2020.
Now let's remember March 15th2020, the day the world shut
(48:51):
down, thank God, my book.
I wasn't able to finish my bookand get a book deal by then,
but I kept thinking, oh my God,what if I had?
Because all of my writerfriends whose books were coming
out found themselves in thisterrible position where they
couldn't.
There were no events, everyonewas stuck at home and books were
considered non-necessity, soyou couldn't even order books.
So I was at home, all of myevents were canceled, and I
(49:14):
thought how can I help?
What if it had been me?
How can I help those who are inthis position?
And so I started interviewingauthors the night before their
books come out.
And now it's been five and ahalf years and I'm still doing
it.
So every Monday for hashtagmystery Monday, I interview
mystery authors the night beforetheir weeks come out, because
we all know Mondays can bemurder, and I try to make them a
(49:36):
little bit less painful and getyour week off to a killer start
, and my goal is to connectreaders with their favorite
authors and to introduce them totheir next favorite authors.
And a year into that effort ofdoing those interviews, I was
doing them by myself.
I partnered with a woman-ownedindependent bookstore, which is
(49:57):
one of five, I think, or it's afew dedicated I should say a few
dedicated mystery and thrillerbookstores in the country Murder
by the Book in Houston, texas,and that is run by McKenna
Jordan and she is a legend andit has been an honor and a
(50:18):
pleasure to be her partner incrime streaming interviews for
five and a half years now and Ican queue up pre-orders for
authors, stream my interviews tomy audience as well as her
audience, and it just worksreally well for everybody.
So it's been an honor and apleasure, gosh that's wonderful.
Speaker 1 (50:34):
So you and I started about the same time five years
ago for exactly the same reasons.
I think that's really cute.
Speaker 2 (50:41):
It's so great because things were so dark and so dire
then, and the fact that goodthings came out of it and people
sort of banded together and didwhat they could with what they
had is so lovely Doing good inthe world even in the darkest of
times.
Speaker 1 (50:56):
Yeah, humanity is capable of fabulous things,
right, okay, well, what aboutthe Nantucket Book Foundation
and Festival?
Speaker 2 (51:03):
Yes, so I got invited to be a featured author in the
Nantucket Book Festival for myfirst book in 2014.
And then they invited me backfor Broadway Butterfly and I
loved it.
And then I started attendingwhenever I could after that,
just as an attendee, because theauthors are always incredible,
the interviews are alwaysthorough and thoughtful and
(51:24):
interesting andthought-provoking, and so I kept
coming back as often as I couldand then, when Broadway
Butterfly came out, they invitedme back and then I started
piping up.
I said, oh, I have some ideas.
And I thought they're nevergoing to want to hear this.
But this overactive hand of minejust kept flapping up with
raising ideas and they saidthese are some really great
(51:45):
ideas.
Would you like to be ourco-chair for the festival?
And I felt so honored, couldn'tbelieve it, thought they got
the wrong person, but since thenhave invited me back every year
to co-chair, and I just signedon to co-chair next year's 2026
Festival, which I'm very excitedabout and I believe so deeply
in the work that the NantucketBook Foundation does, which puts
(52:08):
on this book festival everyyear, as well as does incredible
things like run a book boommeal, providing free books to
the on island residents yearround, has young writer award,
has a scholarship, has avisiting author program so that
the kids never feel that they're30 miles out to sea, has a
children's book day, gives out200 free books in English and
(52:30):
Spanish really inspiring stuff.
So they invited me to join theboard a year ago and I am
thrilled to serve as a boardmember since then as well, and
thank you for all the great workyou do.
Speaker 1 (52:42):
Let's talk books.
What are you currently?
Speaker 2 (52:43):
reading.
I am currently reading PatriciaCornwell's next Kay Scarpetta
book and I am also reading thatbook on your shelf right there,
which is also on my shelf Vianne, which is the prequel to
Chocolat, which I am just soexcited about.
Speaker 1 (53:01):
Excuse the pun, but it is a delicious book.
There's one other thing Iwanted to ask you about the work
you do for the Boston PublicLibrary, and I mean you and I
met through our mutual authorfriend, dawn Tripp, when we were
both at the San Diego WritersConference, and I know we're
going to meet up again at theBoston Book Festival in October.
It's going to be fun.
Speaker 2 (53:21):
I can't wait to meet up in Boston with you, mandy,
after spending time with you inSan Diego at the Writers
Conference there.
So, yes, so I am thrilled to bepart of the Boston Book
Festivals Literary Committee,and that is one of the biggest
book festivals in the world withover 20,000 attendees.
And then I also serve as aboard member for the Friends of
(53:42):
the South End Library, which isthe branch of the Boston Public
Library, and in that role Icurate and host the South End
Author Series, which has aspring series and a fall series,
where we have author eventslike this, with food and drinks
and bookish community.
And that again is the South Endbranch of the Boston Public
Library, and I'm just so honoredto be a board member and to
(54:06):
host the author series there aswell.
Speaker 1 (54:08):
Well, sarah, thank you for all the work you do with
all these organizations.
I know how hard it is and it'soften voluntary and I appreciate
the work you do.
Now are you working on anotherbook?
I am working.
Speaker 2 (54:23):
I'm so excited to be.
I just wrapped up my researchand I'm just starting to write
my third book and my secondhistorical thriller, and I can't
wait to delve into my next truecrime case in the fabulous
world of historical, whereeverything somehow seems more
glamorous.
Speaker 1 (54:43):
Yeah, glamorous, and in some cases uglier too.
I think yes, sarah.
Thank you so much for being onthe show.
And I did want to point out myhusband also read Broadway
Butterfly, because I was tellinghim about all the characters in
the book and he said I knowthose characters from Boardwalk
Empire.
Speaker 2 (55:01):
Yes, oh, thank you for noticing that.
For Boardwalk Empire fans, NakiJohnson was Dot King's former
lover and Ben Hilda Ferguson'slover and Partners in Crime with
Arnold Rothstein, Dot King'slandlord, and you might
recognize a few other charactersas well.
Speaker 1 (55:19):
Yeah, I love the characters, I love the story,
and that the story is true makesit even better.
Sarah, thanks for being on theBookshop Podcast and I look
forward to seeing you on October25th.
Speaker 2 (55:31):
Thank you so much you are I mean such a legend in the
author space and the book spaceas an incredible interviewer,
and I can attest to that, havingsat in on your sessions at the
San Diego Writers Festival andnow as being so honored to be
your podcast guest.
The questions that you ask areso fascinating and somehow get
to the nucleus of the subjectbut yet leave it open-ended
(55:54):
enough to really have room toorganically explore.
And interviewing is a reallytough skill set, actually, and
you are incredible.
I've gotten to see you inaction twice now, so I'm such a
huge fan of yours and I've beenhad so much fun talking to you,
so thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (56:09):
A pleasure Now I'm blushing.
You've been listening to myconversation with Sarah DeVello
about her book BroadwayButterfly.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media, and remember to
subscribe and leave a reviewwherever you listen to this
podcast.
To find out more about theBookshop Podcast, go to
(56:32):
thebookshoppodcastcom and makesure to subscribe and leave a
review wherever you listen tothe show.
You can also follow me at MandyJackson Beverly on Instagram
and Facebook and on YouTube atthe Bookshop Podcast.
If you have a favorite indiebookshop that you'd like to
suggest we have on the podcast,I'd love to hear from you via
(56:54):
the contact form atthebookshoppodcastcom.
The Bookshop Podcast is writtenand produced by me, mandy
Jackson Beverly, theme musicprovided by Brian Beverly, and
my executive assistant andgraphic designer is Adrian
Otterhan.
Thanks for listening and I'llsee you next time.
(57:29):
Thank you.
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