November 5, 2025 • 43 mins
Hi, this week I'm chatting with Amy Joyce and Gayle Weiswasser, co-owners of Wonderland Books in Bethesda, Maryland.
What turns a bookstore into a place where people feel part of a community? We asked Wonderland Books co-owners Amy Joyce and Gail Weiswasser, whose Bethesda shop blends sharp curation, joyful whimsy, and real community care—right down to a wall of Polaroids featuring every visiting dog.
We trace their unlikely routes into bookselling—Amy from nearly three decades at the Washington Post and Gail from law and corporate communications—and how those skills power everything from lease negotiations to handselling, newsletters, and event strategy. They open up about curating beyond their own tastes by leaning on staff with different genre passions, why a quarter of the store is devoted to children’s books, and how representation in kids’ publishing shapes what young readers reach for on the shelf.
Community is the through line. Hear how a creative Indiegogo campaign funded shelves and inventory while transforming donors into co-creators who curated displays, joined after-hours previews, and saw their book clubs’ names on the wall. We dig into school partnerships that put author-visit titles in students’ hands, hospital library donations made from damaged returns, and dog adoption events that turn the kids’ section into a gentle reading nook—even for a blind pup named Rex.
We also get practical about social media that works without a budget: staff-forward videos, playful trends, and a voice that feels human. Amy and Gail share what’s selling now—from dystopian classics to big-hearted novels—and offer thoughtful recommendations that build empathy, including Demon Copperhead, Nickel and Dimed, Nomadland, and The Secret Lives of Church Ladies. The philosophy is simple: welcome warmly, never hover, and let curiosity lead. If you love bookstores that feel like a sanctuary and a spark, this conversation will make you want to visit, linger, and read.
If this resonated, follow the show, leave a quick review, and share it with a friend who loves indie bookstores.
Demon Copperhead, Barbara Kingsolver
Some Great Nowhere, Ann Packer
The Loneliness of Sonia and Sunny, Kiren Desai
The Road to Tender Hearts, Annie Hartnett
Nickel and Dimed, Barbara Ehrenreich
The Secret Lives of Church Ladies, Deesha Philyaw
Mandy Jackson-Beverly - Lunch With An Author Literary Series
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:10):
Hi, my name is Mandy Jackson Beverly, and I'm a
bibliophile.
Welcome to the Bookshop Podcast.
Each week I present interviewswith authors, independent
bookshop owners and booksellersfrom around the globe, and
publishing professionals.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media.
(00:32):
And remember to subscribe andleave a review wherever you
listen to this podcast.
You're listening to episode 311.
Hi, here's a summary of whatI've been up to since our last
episode.
And yes, I did take some timeoff.
I was in Boston for the BostonBook Festival, where I moderated
(00:53):
a panel with Allegra Goodman,Princess Joy L.
Perry, and Nalinny Jones aboutthe new releases I Sola, This
Here is Love, and the UnbrokenCoast, respectively.
Lovely to meet up with authorfriends Dawn Tripp, Sarah
DeVello, and Stephen Kernan, andto experience the beauty of
Boston when the leaves werechanging.
(01:13):
This was my first time to thiscity, and I loved it.
It's always a plus being in awalkable city.
I want to give a shout out toFeedSpot for recognizing the
Bookshop Podcast as number onein the best indie book podcasts
for 2025, for an indie podcastthat doesn't advertise or have
major sponsors.
(01:35):
We appreciate this recognition.
Coming up on Thursday, November13th, Ivy Pakoda is my author
guest at the Santa Barbara Lunchwith an Author literary series.
Ivy and I will be chatting aboutone of my favourite backlist
books, These Women.
For more information, go towww.mandyjacksonbeverly.com
forward slash events.
(01:56):
My big news for 2026 is that I'mexpanding the literary series to
include OHI, California, and I'mpartnering with Hotel El Robla.
This gorgeous hotel wasestablished in 1919 and has
recently been renovated toinclude 50 rooms and bungalows,
two distinct dining venues heldby Jeff Brandon Boudet, and the
(02:18):
Condor Bar serving modernMexican cuisine and a guest-only
cafe offering breakfast andlunch.
The gardens are stunning, andthe serene pool area is set
against a backdrop of the scenicTopotopa Mountains.
The Santa Barbara LiteraryLunches will continue in 2026
with a new partnership with theUniversity Club.
(02:39):
Thank you to General ManagerSarah Rudd for her excitement
around these events.
In Los Angeles, the literarylunches are held at the
California Club, which issituated right next door to the
main Los Angeles library.
This location is for members ofthe club and their friends.
The dates and author informationwill be available on my website
in December along with ticketsales.
(03:01):
These events sell out quickly,so be sure to book early.
Okay, now let's get on with thisweek's episode.
Wonderland Books is anindependent bookstore in the
heart of Bethesda, Maryland,selling books for readers of all
ages.
Co-owners Amy Joyce and GailWeiswasser named the bookshop
Wonderland Books because theybelieve that reading and books
(03:24):
open worlds of wonder no matterwhere in life you are.
Hi, Gail and Amy, and welcome tothe show.
SPEAKER_00 (03:31):
Thanks for having us.
We're excited to be here.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (03:34):
My pleasure.
Now I like to start theseconversations with learning
about the people who are on theshow.
So, Gail, let's start with you.
You majored in American historyat Brown and attended Harvard
Law School before working incorporate communications.
What was your interest in theseareas?
What drew you to law school?
SPEAKER_02 (03:53):
I'm not so sure I ever had a want or a need to
study law, which is probably theproblem.
Um, you know, I went to lawschool, I kind of graduated into
a recession, and I went to lawschool because a lot of the
smart and interesting people Iknew were lawyers, and I tried a
lot of different aspects of law.
I worked in startups, I clerkedfor a judge, I did litigation, I
did transactional work, but noneof it really ever took as far as
(04:15):
kind of grabbing me my passion.
Um, you know, and uh I left, I Ihad twins 21 years ago, and I
left the law after they wereborn, and that's when I went
into corporate communications,and I spent about 20 years
working for um a number ofreally interesting corporate
clients.
I worked in social media, Iworked in crisis communications,
(04:38):
I've done all kinds of stuff.
I spent the last 10 years at atechnology startup running all
of communications and businessdevelopment for them, um, which
was all great, but none of itwas truly at the heart of what I
loved and what I wanted to do,which was to be around books and
to open a bookstore.
SPEAKER_01 (04:55):
Well, I'm glad you've landed doing something
you love.
Amy, you spent three decades asan award-winning journalist at
the Washington Post, and youauthored the book I Went to
College for This.
What led you to journalism?
SPEAKER_00 (05:08):
Well, I was an English lit major, and everybody
would say, Well, what are yougonna do with that?
I just I loved writing, I lovedreading.
Um, when I was in college, I gotinto the college paper.
Um, I started writing for thePittsburgh Post Gazette, my
hometown paper in the summerswhen I was home.
So I loved the excitement of it,um, but I loved the words and
(05:29):
the writing.
And so, you know, over the 28years that I was at the post, I
did a lot of different, I was ina lot of different roles.
Um in the last 10 years, I wasrunning the parenting section,
um, writing and editing.
And it was some of the bestyears of my life at the post.
I really, really enjoyed umediting a lot of personal
(05:49):
essays, uh, honestly lookingback, that were by novelists
that I admired.
Um, so I was constantly sort ofworking with and around books
and tiptoeing around that.
So I loved journalism and Iloved the excitement of it.
But I always wanted to open abookstore.
Uh, from the time I was verylittle, that was just my happy
place.
That was the place I felt mostinspired.
(06:10):
I loved reading from the momentI could read.
Um, it's sort of I think thestory of so many bookstore
owners, it was just always thereon my mind that, you know, I'd
always say, oh, someday I wouldlove to have a bookstore.
And the fact that it actuallyhappened still feels a little
bit like a dream.
And it's yes.
SPEAKER_01 (06:28):
I can imagine it does.
How did the two of you meet?
And what was the inspiration inopening an indie bookshop
together?
SPEAKER_02 (06:34):
Yeah, so we were in a book club together.
We've known each other from theneighborhood and mutual friends
for a very long time.
And, you know, I probably gotserious about the bookstore a
little before Amy.
I actually had a differentpartner that I was working with
kind of briefly until shedecided the timing was just not
right for her.
And when my other partnerexited, I called Amy and I said,
(06:56):
Hey, I know this is a long shot,but would you like to open a
bookstore with me?
And at first she said, No, it's,you know, I I've got this great
job and I've got, you know,family demands.
I don't think this is a goodtime.
And then one thing I love abouther husband is she said to him
that that night at dinner, Oh,Gail asked me if I wanted to
(07:17):
open the bookstore.
And he said, Well, you're gonnasay yes, right.
And that was a great sign.
So then we started talkingreally seriously about it and
you know, what would that looklike?
What would that look like forour our balance, work-life
balance and financially, whatwould it look like and where
would we do it?
And um, it, you know, it justkind of all went from there.
SPEAKER_00 (07:37):
Piece by piece.
Yeah, when Gail first mentionedthis to the book club, she said,
you know, guys, I've alwayswanted to open a bookstore.
And I was just rooting her onand and cheering her on um from
the beginning.
And yeah, it was just uh it'sit's funny that this worked out
the way it did.
SPEAKER_01 (07:53):
And let's talk about curation of the store.
Has your reading influenced thecuration?
And were there specificsections, genres you were
adamant about selling in thestore?
SPEAKER_00 (08:04):
Um we laugh that we wish we had different genres we
we liked to sort of spread outthe wealth, but we do like a lot
of the same.
We're both literary fictionreaders.
Um, we do diverge in some ways.
I like a little more magicalrealism than Gail does, and
probably read a little morenonfiction than you do.
Maybe a little more nonfiction.
Yeah.
Um after all my years as ajournalist, I need to break
(08:27):
that.
SPEAKER_02 (08:27):
But yeah, we overlap a lot.
Like we pick up the same booksall the time without realizing
we're reading the same book.
Yeah.
The good news is we have a greatstaff who um like a real variety
of books.
So we've got people on our staffwho love fantasy and romance.
We have um a number, oddly men,who read uh history and the
(08:49):
political stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (08:50):
And what about your children's section?
SPEAKER_00 (08:52):
So I also love children's books.
Um and my sister-in-law isworking with us, and she
actually has a degree inchildren's literature, and then
we also have a wonderful umchildren's bookseller who helps
us a lot and comes in onSaturdays, and she's an expert
in the field, and um, so that'sbeen really helpful as we're
building that up.
SPEAKER_02 (09:10):
Our bookstore is about 25% uh children, so
there's a really big robustchildren's section.
SPEAKER_01 (09:15):
And thank goodness we're seeing more diversity in
book publishing for children,uh, because it's so important
that children see themselvesrepresented on bookshelves.
SPEAKER_00 (09:25):
Absolutely.
And the thing that's soimportant and so interesting
about this is the children.
People have been saying foryears, but it's so true.
Like it really helps to seeyourself in a book.
So even if their parents aren'tlooking for it, they will
automatically sort of walktoward the books where there are
characters that look like them.
And that alone tells you whyit's so important to have such
(09:48):
diverse titles and settings andcharacters and authors.
Um, it's important, it'simportant for them to see
themselves in these books andsee themselves as, you know,
main characters um and justregular everyday children in
these books, you know, savingthe world and poetry and just
solving mysteries.
Solving mysteries.
(10:08):
It's um going on adventures.
Yes.
So it's a it's a shame that ittook so long.
Um there were such few titles,you know, years ago, but it's
really changed a lot,thankfully.
Um and I'm just so happy when wesee a child pick up a book that
they're excited about or thatthey think it reminds them of
themselves or their friends ortheir family.
(10:30):
It's just so necessary.
SPEAKER_01 (10:32):
And can you talk a little about the diversity of
Bethesda?
SPEAKER_02 (10:36):
Yeah, so our bookstore is in Bethesda,
Maryland.
We're about um maybe two miles,two to three miles from the DC
border.
So it's just right over theline.
Um it is a relatively affluentsuburban area.
It's not the most diversepopulation, but we find that the
(10:59):
store does attract a prettydiverse readership.
So it may not be people who livewithin a mile of the store, but
maybe they work in theneighborhood or they're, you
know, just there.
So um I've actually beenpleasantly surprised by the
diversity of our clientele.
I think we were a little worriedin the beginning that it was
gonna feel really white and ithasn't, which is nice.
(11:20):
We do make a real effort tostock even beyond the kids'
section, diversity of authorsand voices and viewpoints and
perspectives.
And um, I would hope that anyonewalking into the store of any
background would find somethingon the shelf that either speaks
(11:40):
to their experience or thatthey, like Amy said, that they
can either identify with theauthor or identify with the
subject or something.
So it's um it's more diversethan we expected.
SPEAKER_01 (11:51):
And Gail, you've also hosted over 160 podcast
episodes on digital marketingand we also review books on your
blog every day I write the book.
Your experience in marketingmust come in handy when
promoting the bookshop.
How important is it for indiebookshops to have a presence on
social media?
(12:11):
And how important are personalhonor stories in social media
content?
SPEAKER_02 (12:16):
Well, I mean, I've spent my career basically
working in social media.
Um, I used to run social mediafor a large TV network, and it's
to me it's always been aboutestablishing a um genuine
connection with your audience,whether it's through humor,
whether it's through education,whether it's through
inspiration.
Social media is a fantasticvehicle for establishing that
(12:38):
type of connection.
I know social media has allkinds of problems and has led to
all kinds of problems.
But speaking about the positivesides of it, it does foster
community, is a really immediateand um authentic vehicle for
communicating and connecting.
And for us, social media hasbeen something we've done from
(13:00):
the beginning.
I mean, it's free, first of all,which is great.
I mean, unless you put paidspend behind it, but certainly
as a bookstore starting outwithout a big marketing budget,
or frankly, without anymarketing budget, um, social
media has been really effective.
And we have a great social mediamanager right now who comes in
with all kinds of ideas ofthings she has seen on Instagram
(13:20):
or TikTok and has us createthese silly videos in the store.
And people love them.
And we get comments all the timeabout our social media.
Oh, you guys are killing it onInstagram, or um, I learned
about this store on Instagram,or I loved what you know, I saw
this book on your TikTok.
And so we we know it's working.
(13:40):
You know, social media, it'sreally hard to actually
calculate an ROI.
I think it's sort of it's auseless task because so much of
social media is ephemeral andyou know it's it's intangible,
but we feel that our socialmedia platforms really reflect
who we are as or the personalityof our store, which is kind of
(14:02):
playful and friendly and open.
We try to make sure that all ofour employees get airtime, so we
have her come on a different dayof the week each time so that
she's getting different peoplewho are there.
And um it, I don't know.
I think it's a great engagementtool.
SPEAKER_01 (14:17):
I do too.
And as much negativity as we areuh confronted with with social
media, there's also the flipside, and I think it's really
difficult if you have a smallbusiness uh not to be on social
media.
It's a great way to buildcommunity.
I think if we take a good lookat what happened during lockdown
and how bookshops relied onsocial media to show what books
(14:41):
they had in the store so thatpeople could order them and
either come and pick them upoutside the bookshop or have
them delivered.
I don't know that we would havegotten through that if it hadn't
been for social media.
One thing that bothers me aboutplatforms such as Goodreads and
Amazon is that it's become thenorm for every man and his dog
to become a book reviewer.
(15:02):
And personally, I don't talkabout books that I don't like.
Uh I used to review books forthe New York Journal of Books
that is sadly closed.
But I just find that people arecriticizing books for the wrong
reasons.
Like I bought this book and Ididn't know it was going to be a
sci-fi book, and they'll give itone star.
(15:22):
And when you get a few of thosekinds of negative reviews and
silly reviews, it brings downthe overall rating for that
particular author's books.
I'd love your thoughts on this.
Amy, would you like to go first?
SPEAKER_00 (15:35):
Sure.
I mean, there are so manyexcellent books out there.
Why spend the time complainingabout a book, I guess?
Um, and that is one thing I loveabout doing so many things on
social media is that I justthere are so many books I want
to talk about, and Gail wants totalk about, and our booksellers
want to talk about.
And so um just putting that outthere because we want people to
(15:57):
know what's great out thereright now.
And so that's really the focus,and I think that's sort of the
important focus.
I think in general, I would muchrather share what we like and
and what we think people wouldlike than criticize books that
maybe aren't our thing.
And also I feel like many timesif I'm not that crazy about a
book, somebody else is, andthere is a reason for that.
SPEAKER_01 (16:20):
Um, whether it's you know, just like any art form,
it's subjective, right?
SPEAKER_00 (16:24):
Yeah, yeah.
We love to we love to share whatwe love to read and what we
think other people will love toread.
And I think that's the focus.
SPEAKER_01 (16:31):
Gail, you've been a book reviewer.
What are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_02 (16:34):
I have a slightly different perspective on that.
Um I was just gonna say, becauseI've spent 20 years writing this
book review blog.
And one of the things thatpeople always tell me about the
blog is they love how honest Iam.
And that if, you know, I havedefinitely written negative
reviews before.
Um, even authors I love, I'vewritten negative reviews of if I
just didn't love the book.
So transitioning to thebookstore has been a challenge
(16:57):
because I don't want to beputting out negative content
about books for many, manyreasons.
Like Amy said, you know, we wantto be championing great books.
There's so many good ones outthere.
Um, you never know when anauthor might be, you know,
looking into someplace to havean event.
And I would hate for them tofind something negative that I
wrote about a book.
So I've tried to really tempermy reviews.
(17:18):
I've skipped some reviews, um,which is something I never used
to do, but I've I've notreviewed some books that I've
read because I didn't love them,or I've just tried to be um more
balanced in the review, or justtry to focus on the positive, or
say, like, you know, this mightnot have worked for me, but
here's the reader that this bookwould be good for.
SPEAKER_01 (17:37):
Tell me about the Indiegogo campaign you both
created to raise money forconstruction and inventory of
Wonderland books.
And what ideas did you come upwith to gain interest in people
donating?
SPEAKER_02 (17:50):
We funded this bookstore really on our own.
Um, we didn't take out loans,you know, like small business
loans.
We we each contributed a certainamount of our own personal
money, you know, and for that wemight have taken out loans, but
it wasn't like uh something wedid for the books as a
bookstore.
But we did do an Indiegogocampaign, which was very
successful and helped us raiseforty two thousand dollars, was
(18:13):
it?
SPEAKER_00 (18:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (18:14):
So in order to get those forty-two thousand
dollars, we came up with kind ofa tier of things that you would
get depending on you know whatyou were comfortable donating.
And, you know, we started smallwith like a sticker and a
bookmark and then a water bottleand then a tote bag, and then we
kind of tried to get kind ofcreative and we did um, you
(18:35):
know, one thing we loved was for$500, you got to curate a shelf
in the store for I think wepromised a week, but it's really
turned out to be more like amonth.
Um, but you know, for somepeople, you know, they love the
idea of coming up with 15 or 20books that they love and seeing
their love to see what they picktoo.
SPEAKER_00 (18:52):
It's um definitely some different titles that maybe
we wouldn't have had on, youknow, it's been really fun.
SPEAKER_02 (18:58):
Absolutely.
And we put a little bio and aphoto of the person and uh they
really enjoy.
They come in and take a pictureof it.
And what were some of the otherthings we did?
Uh, signage on the wall.
We you for you know a certainamount of money, you've got your
name on the wall.
So we have a nice thing.
We also worked with some localbook clubs, and um, we got about
(19:18):
eight book clubs, and theycontributed um a certain amount
of money and they got their nameon the wall as a book club and
some special events in there umthat they've been able to
attend, like some holidaypreview type stuff or speed
dating with books where Amy andI will just recommend a whole
bunch of books, you know,quickly in succession.
Um, they got a special limitedhours.
SPEAKER_00 (19:40):
Yeah, they get to come in after hours.
We lock the doors and they getto hang out in the bookstore.
And it's yeah, right.
It's been a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_01 (19:47):
They're great ideas.
Did you use the money from theIndiegogo campaign mainly as
kind of inside construction ofthe shop, building bookshelves,
et cetera?
SPEAKER_02 (19:57):
Yeah, I just kind of went into the big fund.
SPEAKER_00 (19:59):
Yeah, although it sort of equaled, we were able to
dull it out and see exactly, youknow, what it did go to.
So it did go to the bookshelves.
SPEAKER_02 (20:08):
Yeah, the bookshelves.
SPEAKER_00 (20:09):
Um, and it did go to inventory.
And um, you know, it was it wasstrange to set it up.
I was very nervous about it.
It felt weird, but the thingthat was amazing was people
wanted to.
They were coming to us andasking to do it.
Um, and then the like sort ofamazing part of it is they're
(20:30):
all a little part of thebookstore now.
And I think it feels good.
Either whether their name is onthe wall or we had special bags
made up for people who donatedsome money that we it says
Wonderland Superstar.
So, like the people that we seewith the superstar bags, we know
they were there from thebeginning.
And it's just, I think they werehappy to be a part of it.
And we just feel so much warmthwhen we're out there and we know
(20:51):
these people supported us to getthe bookstore up and running.
It's been um, there's a lot morebenefit than the the money that
went with it.
SPEAKER_01 (20:58):
Yeah.
I'm glad you brought up the wordcommunity because to me that's
what indie bookshops are aboutbuilding community inside and
outside the store.
Can you talk about how you'vedone both, whether it's through
school programs, donating booksto hospitals or prisons?
And I do want to hear about yourpet adoption program.
SPEAKER_02 (21:19):
Yeah, yeah.
One of the things that's beenthe most effective in building
community, and we we borrowedthis idea from another
bookstore, so we don't takecredit for it, but we take a
Polaroid photo of every dog thatcomes into the store and we post
it on the wall with their nameon it because we're a very
dog-friendly store.
And someone was doing a littlearticle about this and asked us,
(21:40):
and I think this was alreadythree weeks ago.
I counted, we have 560 pictures.
SPEAKER_01 (21:46):
Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_02 (21:47):
And we only opened in December.
So we love the fact that peoplebring their dogs in.
Sometimes they come in just forthe purpose of getting their dog
on the wall.
SPEAKER_00 (21:55):
We've had three cats, yeah, and there are three
cats on the wall.
SPEAKER_02 (21:58):
Um, yeah, we've had dogs who have passed away since
their pictures were taken andtheir owners come back in.
So the dog wall is a greatcommunity builder.
We have also done two dogadoption events.
Um we have participated in somecommunity events that have taken
place in other areas like umcommunity center, um, like
(22:22):
artisan fairs, or where we'vepartnered with um a local
synagogue and we're doing a bookclub program with them.
We've got three authors comingin.
That's part of a Wednesday'swriting, Wednesday reading club
thing that they're doing.
SPEAKER_00 (22:38):
Um we've partnered with an open book foundation.
So Title I schools that arehaving an author visit um our
customers, and we buy books.
So every child who sees thatauthor gets to walk out of that
school with one of those books.
We donate books to the hospital,Catholic charities was looking
for um books for new refugees,uh, so children who were trying
(23:02):
to learn English, and we've beenable to do that.
SPEAKER_02 (23:04):
Bookstores get a lot of damaged books.
Uh, they come in from thepublisher and they've they're
damaged.
So we report them, we get creditfor them, and then they say you
can donate or destroy them.
So what we do with them is webox them up, and then actually
she's coming today.
Uh, there's a woman who works atGeorgetown Hospital, and she
collects those books and hascreated a library for patients
(23:27):
in the hospital.
And in fact, she's expanding itnow to include nurses.
So they're going to create alittle library in like the
nurses' station, too.
So, I mean, it's this is aneffortless thing for us.
All we have to do is tell herthat the books are available,
but it's nice that we feel likethe books are going to a good
place and they're being used.
SPEAKER_01 (23:45):
Yeah, that's wonderful.
I just love that pet adoptionidea, but it must have been
crazy in the bookshop.
SPEAKER_00 (23:51):
It was pretty crazy both times.
The second time there was asweet dog that I still think
about.
His name was Rex, and he'sblind.
And they put him on a little dogbed in the children's section,
and all day long children couldsit down and read read books to
him, and it was just delightful.
It was so sweet.
SPEAKER_01 (24:06):
Oh my goodness, that's so heartwarming to hear.
He sounds like the perfect dogfor the bookshop.
You both attended the indiebookstore owner boot camp run by
Mark Kaufman and his wife, DonnaPaz Kaufman.
How did this prepare you forbecoming an indie bookstore
owner?
And were the classes primarilyabout the economics of running a
business?
(24:27):
Or did you also learn aboutcuration, ordering, and the
design of an indie bookshop?
SPEAKER_00 (24:32):
Well, it was a great concentrated what is it, three
days in Florida at their lovelybookstore, um, Story and Song.
And they went over everything.
We saw, um, and this was beforewe had the store, so it was all
overwhelming and new to us, butthey really did break it down um
in a way that felt digestible.
(24:52):
Um, and we saw, you know, at theend of the day, like sort of how
they ran the numbers and whatbooks they would return for
damages, what it was like toreceive books.
So they took us through thewhole process, and it was great.
It was in a way, there was somuch information coming at us.
It was almost overwhelming, butthey sent us home with a binder.
(25:12):
So it was all in there.
And one of the great benefits ofthis was there were 20 people in
our class and we're still intouch.
So we have a uh a WhatsApp groupand we um help each other out,
we ask for advice, and themajority of them have opened
bookstores since all of them.
So um the community that itbuilt was amazing.
Um, but it did give us a nicelook into how to open and run a
(25:36):
bookstore.
SPEAKER_01 (25:37):
And have you both found that the work you've done
previously, whether it be in lawor journalism or corporate
communications, how would yousay this work has helped you
when you were opening thebookshop and as you uh are
working in it on a day-to-daybasis?
SPEAKER_02 (25:54):
Absolutely.
I mean, yeah, I look back on mycareer and it like absolutely
led me to this point.
You know, the all thecommunications uh experience I
have has been really helpfulwith, you know, writing
newsletters or doing marketingstrategy, reaching out when
we're having a particular eventand figuring out how to, you
know, who do we want to reachout to.
Um, yeah, the legal backgroundis helpful when you're reading a
(26:17):
contract or a lease, negotiatinga lease.
Um, and then certainly all thoseyears and years and years of
book reviewing and immersingmyself in the book world and
listening to book podcasts andgoing to book expo in New York.
I mean, I did I've done that forso, so, so long.
I mean, it's great to kind of bedoing it now professionally
instead of as a hobbyist, butit's all the culmination has all
(26:41):
led me here.
And I was thinking about thisall those years, I'm sure you
feel this way, of wrappingpresents at Christmas and
Hanukkah.
Like we wrap presents all daylong.
We wrap books all day long.
So, like, there's just all theselittle things in my life anyway,
that I feel like I draw on everyday at the store.
And what about you, Amy?
SPEAKER_00 (27:00):
Um, journalism too.
There's definitely, you know, alittle Venn diagram, a little
overlap.
I'm very close with a lot ofpeople I worked with at the post
and people I edited.
So we have a lot of writerscoming in who either wrote for
me or I worked with a lotbecause they they all
journalists all write writebooks or essayists all have
novels.
And so that's been a big help.
(27:22):
I read so much as a living, um,that helps me now, you know,
that was my whole career.
I would read all day and I'dcome home and I'd read at night.
And so, you know, it I think Ithat helps me sort of discern
what I like and what thebookstore should have.
And being a journalist, you movequickly.
And I think that's really helpedme too.
(27:42):
Like you just million tasks aday and you have to think fast
and move fast.
And that I think was somethingthat was just in me.
And that's really helped settingup the bookstore too.
And also as a journalist, youcan't be too intimidated or too
scared.
And so I think that's helpedjust sort of help me plow
forward.
SPEAKER_01 (27:59):
I love that about growing older.
Uh, we can look at our past andthe work we've done, the people
we've met, the locations we'vebeen in, and it starts to all
come together and make sense.
I just love that.
I I think it's really a fun wayto look at life.
Gail, in an article written byDeborah Lynn Bloomberg, you set
of your customers and customersto be, quote, we just want them
(28:23):
to know we're here.
We don't view an interactionwith a customer that doesn't end
up as a sale as a wastedexperience.
End quote.
I see this as the fundamentalphilosophy behind bookselling.
Creating a space where everyonefeels welcome.
It's not just about saying helloor that latest thing, welcome
(28:43):
in, which drives me nuts.
Um, it's about bookselleretiquette and how and when to
speak with people.
What are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_02 (28:52):
Yeah, I mean, we instruct our booksellers that
whenever someone comes in towelcome them in, maybe we do say
welcome in, but we, you know, wesay hello.
We want them to, we don't wantanyone to feel ignored when they
come in, but we also don't wantthem to feel like we're
hovering.
One of the great joys of beingin a bookstore is to wander and
(29:13):
to, you know, get a little lostin it and discover.
And I also think that bookbuying is a really decent
personal thing.
And the books that you choose toread, you know, may reflect very
personal things.
And so um personally, I try notto comment on what people are
buying.
I mean, unless it's a book likeI've just read, um, or it's a
(29:35):
book I've written a shelf talkerfor or something like that.
I I try to give them theirpersonal space, let them, you
know, let that act of buying thebook be private, but at the same
time be friendly.
So maybe we don't talk to themabout what the book is, but we
comment on the weather orsomething that they're wearing.
Say that's a lovely sweater,something like that.
You know, just some personalconnection.
(29:56):
Um, the dog thing really helpsbecause people come in with dogs
all the time and And as a veryeasy way to approach somebody is
just to say, Do you mind if Ipet your dog?
Because we always, there'salways one of us who wants to
pet a dog.
So, and you know, back to thatquote about it's not a waste if
somebody comes in and doesn'tbuy a book.
Well, if they come in and theyhave a positive experience
either with our staff or theyfind something interesting or
(30:18):
they bought a card or something,the likely it is they'll come
back.
You know, the next time theyneed a book or they doing
holidays, they need to buy agift or they're it's Christmas
or whatever, they'll think ofus.
And we want that experience theycame in the first time to have
been positive, but not somethingthat felt like pressure.
SPEAKER_00 (30:37):
I think in general, when people come in, we do
welcome them and we say, let usknow if you need help with
anything.
Um, and I find myself a lot oftimes just saying, just enjoy
yourself.
You know, you're here.
Enjoy yourself.
And, you know, the DC area is ina strange state right now.
Um, a lot of people arefurloughed.
Uh, they might not be spendingtoo much money, but they do look
(30:59):
for a place to go and feel somecomfort.
And we're finding in thebookstore uh someone will come
up to the register and you know,they buy a book.
Well, I have time to read nowbecause I was furloughed and
somebody else pops their headup.
Oh, I was furloughed too.
And so it we're finding thatcommunity there.
And we want people to knowthey're welcome to come in and
let this be the place where theyjust need to sit and breathe for
a minute.
Um, so we don't like to hover,like Gail said, we don't like to
(31:22):
pester people and and act likethey need to buy something.
Like you said earlier, we'rebuilding a community.
So it feels like they, if theyknow we're there and they know
we're not pressuring them,they'll they'll come back.
We'll be on their radar, they'llbe thinking of us.
Um, and that makes us happiertoo.
It just makes it for a verypleasant day.
SPEAKER_01 (31:42):
Yeah, I will say some of my favorite
conversations have been inindependent bookshops, not just
with booksellers, but when uhanother person is in there and
they start talking to you abouta book they've read, or you can
see them just about to go for abook that you've read, and you
can't help yourself.
You have to start talking aboutthat book.
Indie bookshops are aboutcommunity for me and and
(32:03):
conversations.
SPEAKER_00 (32:04):
We love it ourselves.
I don't mean to speak for Gail,but that's I think our favorite
part of the day.
Um, you know, when people starttalking about books or tell us
how much they loved a certainbook and we have that
conversation.
SPEAKER_01 (32:15):
Okay, well, with that idea in mind, I'm gonna ask
you one question and thenanother one.
Uh, but you'll have time tothink about this first one.
If there were a couple of booksthat you would love everyone to
read, what would they be?
Or it be?
Could we just be one book?
And the other is what are youcurrently reading?
SPEAKER_00 (32:33):
Oh boy.
SPEAKER_02 (32:34):
Well, we're kind of reading the same book.
SPEAKER_00 (32:36):
Yeah, again, we're reading the same book and loving
it.
SPEAKER_02 (32:39):
Yeah.
So I think we're both listeningon audio to Buckeye by Patrick
Ryan, which is historicalfiction set in 1939.
39, um ish.
Ish, actually into the four intothe 40s.
And then I think it'll sweep allthe way up to like present day,
um, or at least like at leastlike 2000 or something.
(33:00):
So we're both enjoying that.
It's sort of a traditionalsweeping.
Somebody described it asbig-hearted.
Did you tell me that?
Yeah, yeah, big-hearted book.
SPEAKER_00 (33:10):
Jeffrey, another bookseller.
SPEAKER_02 (33:11):
One of our booksellers, yeah.
So we're both reading that.
Um, I'm also reading a bookcalled Some Bright Nowhere by
Ann Packer, who's going to bevisiting the store the second
week in November.
Um, I read a book by her manyyears ago called The Die from
Clausen's Pier.
Came out in 2005.
So we're talking 20 years ago.
This is a very, very sad bookthat I'm not going to recommend
(33:36):
to everybody because it's sosad.
It's about a husband and a wife.
The wife is in the end stages ofterminal cancer.
And um, it's really about thedynamic between the two of them
and how at her, as she'sapproaching the end of her life,
she actually asks him to moveout.
And she has her two best friendsmove in because she wants this
(33:59):
kind of experience of leavingher life to be with them and not
with him.
And so, of course, it creates alot of hurt and confusion on his
part.
And it's like a very, verydetailed, minute exploration of
the decline in health and all ofthe things that happen.
(34:20):
So it's both emotional andphysical.
It's very hard.
I'm really liking it.
I love her writing style, it'sextremely detailed, but it is
very sad.
And certainly for people whohave been through this with a
loved one, it might be verytriggering.
So this would be, you know,something to keep in mind before
picking that book up.
SPEAKER_01 (34:38):
What an interesting subject to write about.
SPEAKER_02 (34:40):
Yeah, and I think that anyone reading it would
develop great empathy for boththe caregiver and the person
who's ill, just seeing all ofthis perspective.
Um, so I this is a book thatwill probably stay with me for a
very long time.
I'm really, really excited tomeet the author when she's in
town.
She's coming to read at thestore, and I'm looking forward
(35:04):
to that.
SPEAKER_01 (35:04):
Okay, Amy, your turn.
SPEAKER_00 (35:06):
Okay, so I'm listening to Buckeye.
Um, and I just started uh TheLoneliness of Sonia and Sonny.
Um, the the big epic novel by isit Kieran Desai?
SPEAKER_02 (35:18):
I think so.
SPEAKER_00 (35:18):
I think I'm saying that correctly.
Um and it's it's just gonna bewonderful.
Um, and I also just finishedRoad to Tender Hearts uh by
Annie Hartnett, and she's gonnabe in the store on Wednesday.
Um and that book, oh my gosh, Ithat one too, I said was full of
heart and hope.
It was, you know, justmulti-layered moments were very
(35:42):
funny.
Um, there were moments that werevery sad, but it was just, yeah,
it was a delight.
So I'm excited to to listen toher on Wednesday at the store.
SPEAKER_01 (35:50):
And now that second part of the question, which was
if there was a book you couldrecommend for everyone to read,
what would it be?
And I'm I'm not saying you'regonna shove it down their
throat.
It's just that a book that youwish in your heart everyone
would read.
Gail, why don't you start?
SPEAKER_02 (36:06):
For me, it's gonna be a pair of books.
They're nonfiction, they're bothabout working.
One is called Nickel and Dime,it's by Barb Barbara Ehrenreich,
it's an old book, and one iscalled Nomad Land by Jessica
Broder.
And that is, I think it'sBroder.
And that is a new-ish book thatwas made into a movie by the
same name, Nomad Land.
(36:27):
And Nickel and Dimed is aboutpeople who work menial jobs, you
know, they work um as maids inhotels or cleaning people, or
they are working in big boxstores.
Um, and it's about the life ofpeople who live jobs that are
not necessarily fulfillingfinancially or uh
(36:52):
intellectually, and how hard ofa life that is.
You know, I've worked I'veworked in white-collar jobs my
whole life and have never everthought once about the fact that
if I need to use the bathroom, Igo and use the bathroom.
And I was reading nickel anddimed about people who had to
schedule, they were only alloweda certain number of bathroom
(37:14):
breaks a day.
And, you know, maybe they'reworking on a factory floor,
they're working in, you know, abig warehouse.
And the fact that you have tothink about that before getting
up from your desk, um, that waslike eye-opening to me.
And I think about that bookalmost every day.
And no man is about um itinerantworkers who are people that have
(37:35):
to follow, they have to kind ofdrive to find jobs.
And you know, maybe they'reworking in an Amazon work um
warehouse at Christmas time, andthat's that's a temporary need
because Amazon needs more peoplepicking stuff off shelves and
putting them in boxes atChristmas time than it does the
rest of the year, or maybethey're working on a berry farm
(37:56):
in the summer.
But it's people who drive allacross the country in search of
work because they don't havework where they live.
And the loneliness of thatexistence, the exhaustion, the
living out of a van, um, and thecommunities that have sprung up
among these nomad workers, Ijust found that to be a
fascinating book.
And then an equally beautifuland fascinating movie, which I
(38:19):
adored.
So those two books combined, Ithink, especially where we live,
would be eye-opening to peoplebecause it's so foreign from
what they think of as work andwhat they do.
And I think it's gives you atremendous amount of compassion
for the vast majority of peoplein this country and how they
make a living.
SPEAKER_01 (38:39):
Well, they both sound great.
Thank you.
And I'll make sure to put all ofthe books that we talk about in
the show notes.
Amy, what about you?
SPEAKER_00 (38:47):
It's almost cliche because so many people have read
it, but I've also heard from somany people who said they didn't
feel like they had to read itbecause they sort of knew the
story.
But um, Demon Copperhead byBarbara King Salver.
Um, I think the thing I lovedabout that book, and I read it
when it first came out, it stuckwith me.
It was in even in my dreams, thecharacters, um, which has never
(39:07):
happened before.
Talk about getting empathy froma novel.
Um, you know, it's focused onpeople who live in poverty and
Appalachia, who um fall under,you know, end up as drug
addicts.
And it just, they were somultidimensional.
And I just ended up loving everycharacter in that book.
(39:28):
Um, I just think it's reallyimportant that people read it.
I think that it's just sort ofnecessary reading, um, really
humanizes a population of peoplein the US that are often
forgotten or just looked downupon.
So I think pretty much anythingBarbara King Silver does is
amazing.
But this book in particular,just it was so um open-hearted
(39:48):
and I think important for peopleto read this day and age.
That was one.
And then one that I always goback to, and I think Gail liked
this book too long, long ago,um, is the Secret Lives of
Church Ladies.
You like that one too, right?
Um, by Deisha Filia.
Um, is that I that's how we sayher name, but it's just um it's
(40:09):
short stories, and a lot oftimes people say they don't like
short stories, but I think theydo, they just don't see a lot of
um short story books.
But hers is just this great lookat um black women and girls who
are like daring to follow theirdreams, and it just again, it
just shows you a different sideof society and people that maybe
(40:32):
you know you gloss over.
So um again, verymultidimensional, um, just
really loving and human.
SPEAKER_01 (40:39):
I can see why you two get on so well.
Well, because of the differentbooks you've chosen.
They're both to do with empathy.
SPEAKER_02 (40:46):
We're very similar, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (40:48):
Which we didn't know when this all started too much,
but yeah, it's funny.
SPEAKER_02 (40:51):
We now will show up to work and like half the time
we're wearing the same thing.
Yeah.
Unplanned, it just happens.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:58):
And what books are you selling in the store that
are becoming really popularright now?
SPEAKER_02 (41:03):
Well, there's lots of books being sold right now
about tyranny and autocracy andum democracy or the lack
thereof.
Those books are people areleaning in on those or
dystopian.
I mean, this is not just ourstore, this is happening all
over the country, but 1984,Handmaid's Tale.
So those are good, and then onthe other side, there's people
(41:24):
who come in and they don't wantto hear about any of that.
They want to escape, they wantsomething to ease their anxiety
and stress a little bit, andthey come in and they want
wedding people, or they want umFrederick Bachman, or, you know,
like you said, the um AnnieHartnett book.
I think they're looking for justsome reminders about the good in
(41:46):
humanity as opposed to justbeing dashed over the head with
what's going on around us.
SPEAKER_01 (41:50):
Well, thank you so much for being guests on the
show today.
I feel like I've had a littlepeek inside your bookshop
window.
It's wonderful.
SPEAKER_00 (41:58):
Well, thank you so much for having us on.
It's such a treat.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (42:02):
You've been listening to my conversation
with Amy Joyce and GailWeiswasser, co-owners of
Wonderland Books in Bethesda,Maryland.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media.
And remember to subscribe andleave a review wherever you
listen to this podcast.
To find out more about theBookshop Podcast, go to
(42:24):
thebookshoppodcast.com.
And make sure to subscribe andleave a review wherever you
listen to the show.
You can also follow me at MandyJackson Beverly, on Instagram
and Facebook, and on YouTube atthe Bookshop Podcast.
If you have a favorite indiebookshop that you'd like to
suggest we have on the podcast,I'd love to hear from you via
(42:46):
the contact form atthebookshoppodcast.com.
The Bookshop Podcast is writtenand produced by me, Mandy
Jackson Beverly.
Theme music provided by BrianBeverly, and a big thank you to
my assistant, Kaylee Duchinger.
Thanks for listening, and I'llsee you next time.
Hi, my name is Mandy Jackson Beverly, and I'm a
bibliophile.
Welcome to the Bookshop Podcast.
Each week I present interviewswith authors, independent
bookshop owners and booksellersfrom around the globe, and
publishing professionals.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media.
(00:32):
And remember to subscribe andleave a review wherever you
listen to this podcast.
You're listening to episode 311.
Hi, here's a summary of whatI've been up to since our last
episode.
And yes, I did take some timeoff.
I was in Boston for the BostonBook Festival, where I moderated
(00:53):
a panel with Allegra Goodman,Princess Joy L.
Perry, and Nalinny Jones aboutthe new releases I Sola, This
Here is Love, and the UnbrokenCoast, respectively.
Lovely to meet up with authorfriends Dawn Tripp, Sarah
DeVello, and Stephen Kernan, andto experience the beauty of
Boston when the leaves werechanging.
(01:13):
This was my first time to thiscity, and I loved it.
It's always a plus being in awalkable city.
I want to give a shout out toFeedSpot for recognizing the
Bookshop Podcast as number onein the best indie book podcasts
for 2025, for an indie podcastthat doesn't advertise or have
major sponsors.
(01:35):
We appreciate this recognition.
Coming up on Thursday, November13th, Ivy Pakoda is my author
guest at the Santa Barbara Lunchwith an Author literary series.
Ivy and I will be chatting aboutone of my favourite backlist
books, These Women.
For more information, go towww.mandyjacksonbeverly.com
forward slash events.
(01:56):
My big news for 2026 is that I'mexpanding the literary series to
include OHI, California, and I'mpartnering with Hotel El Robla.
This gorgeous hotel wasestablished in 1919 and has
recently been renovated toinclude 50 rooms and bungalows,
two distinct dining venues heldby Jeff Brandon Boudet, and the
(02:18):
Condor Bar serving modernMexican cuisine and a guest-only
cafe offering breakfast andlunch.
The gardens are stunning, andthe serene pool area is set
against a backdrop of the scenicTopotopa Mountains.
The Santa Barbara LiteraryLunches will continue in 2026
with a new partnership with theUniversity Club.
(02:39):
Thank you to General ManagerSarah Rudd for her excitement
around these events.
In Los Angeles, the literarylunches are held at the
California Club, which issituated right next door to the
main Los Angeles library.
This location is for members ofthe club and their friends.
The dates and author informationwill be available on my website
in December along with ticketsales.
(03:01):
These events sell out quickly,so be sure to book early.
Okay, now let's get on with thisweek's episode.
Wonderland Books is anindependent bookstore in the
heart of Bethesda, Maryland,selling books for readers of all
ages.
Co-owners Amy Joyce and GailWeiswasser named the bookshop
Wonderland Books because theybelieve that reading and books
(03:24):
open worlds of wonder no matterwhere in life you are.
Hi, Gail and Amy, and welcome tothe show.
SPEAKER_00 (03:31):
Thanks for having us.
We're excited to be here.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (03:34):
My pleasure.
Now I like to start theseconversations with learning
about the people who are on theshow.
So, Gail, let's start with you.
You majored in American historyat Brown and attended Harvard
Law School before working incorporate communications.
What was your interest in theseareas?
What drew you to law school?
SPEAKER_02 (03:53):
I'm not so sure I ever had a want or a need to
study law, which is probably theproblem.
Um, you know, I went to lawschool, I kind of graduated into
a recession, and I went to lawschool because a lot of the
smart and interesting people Iknew were lawyers, and I tried a
lot of different aspects of law.
I worked in startups, I clerkedfor a judge, I did litigation, I
did transactional work, but noneof it really ever took as far as
(04:15):
kind of grabbing me my passion.
Um, you know, and uh I left, I Ihad twins 21 years ago, and I
left the law after they wereborn, and that's when I went
into corporate communications,and I spent about 20 years
working for um a number ofreally interesting corporate
clients.
I worked in social media, Iworked in crisis communications,
(04:38):
I've done all kinds of stuff.
I spent the last 10 years at atechnology startup running all
of communications and businessdevelopment for them, um, which
was all great, but none of itwas truly at the heart of what I
loved and what I wanted to do,which was to be around books and
to open a bookstore.
SPEAKER_01 (04:55):
Well, I'm glad you've landed doing something
you love.
Amy, you spent three decades asan award-winning journalist at
the Washington Post, and youauthored the book I Went to
College for This.
What led you to journalism?
SPEAKER_00 (05:08):
Well, I was an English lit major, and everybody
would say, Well, what are yougonna do with that?
I just I loved writing, I lovedreading.
Um, when I was in college, I gotinto the college paper.
Um, I started writing for thePittsburgh Post Gazette, my
hometown paper in the summerswhen I was home.
So I loved the excitement of it,um, but I loved the words and
(05:29):
the writing.
And so, you know, over the 28years that I was at the post, I
did a lot of different, I was ina lot of different roles.
Um in the last 10 years, I wasrunning the parenting section,
um, writing and editing.
And it was some of the bestyears of my life at the post.
I really, really enjoyed umediting a lot of personal
(05:49):
essays, uh, honestly lookingback, that were by novelists
that I admired.
Um, so I was constantly sort ofworking with and around books
and tiptoeing around that.
So I loved journalism and Iloved the excitement of it.
But I always wanted to open abookstore.
Uh, from the time I was verylittle, that was just my happy
place.
That was the place I felt mostinspired.
(06:10):
I loved reading from the momentI could read.
Um, it's sort of I think thestory of so many bookstore
owners, it was just always thereon my mind that, you know, I'd
always say, oh, someday I wouldlove to have a bookstore.
And the fact that it actuallyhappened still feels a little
bit like a dream.
And it's yes.
SPEAKER_01 (06:28):
I can imagine it does.
How did the two of you meet?
And what was the inspiration inopening an indie bookshop
together?
SPEAKER_02 (06:34):
Yeah, so we were in a book club together.
We've known each other from theneighborhood and mutual friends
for a very long time.
And, you know, I probably gotserious about the bookstore a
little before Amy.
I actually had a differentpartner that I was working with
kind of briefly until shedecided the timing was just not
right for her.
And when my other partnerexited, I called Amy and I said,
(06:56):
Hey, I know this is a long shot,but would you like to open a
bookstore with me?
And at first she said, No, it's,you know, I I've got this great
job and I've got, you know,family demands.
I don't think this is a goodtime.
And then one thing I love abouther husband is she said to him
that that night at dinner, Oh,Gail asked me if I wanted to
(07:17):
open the bookstore.
And he said, Well, you're gonnasay yes, right.
And that was a great sign.
So then we started talkingreally seriously about it and
you know, what would that looklike?
What would that look like forour our balance, work-life
balance and financially, whatwould it look like and where
would we do it?
And um, it, you know, it justkind of all went from there.
SPEAKER_00 (07:37):
Piece by piece.
Yeah, when Gail first mentionedthis to the book club, she said,
you know, guys, I've alwayswanted to open a bookstore.
And I was just rooting her onand and cheering her on um from
the beginning.
And yeah, it was just uh it'sit's funny that this worked out
the way it did.
SPEAKER_01 (07:53):
And let's talk about curation of the store.
Has your reading influenced thecuration?
And were there specificsections, genres you were
adamant about selling in thestore?
SPEAKER_00 (08:04):
Um we laugh that we wish we had different genres we
we liked to sort of spread outthe wealth, but we do like a lot
of the same.
We're both literary fictionreaders.
Um, we do diverge in some ways.
I like a little more magicalrealism than Gail does, and
probably read a little morenonfiction than you do.
Maybe a little more nonfiction.
Yeah.
Um after all my years as ajournalist, I need to break
(08:27):
that.
SPEAKER_02 (08:27):
But yeah, we overlap a lot.
Like we pick up the same booksall the time without realizing
we're reading the same book.
Yeah.
The good news is we have a greatstaff who um like a real variety
of books.
So we've got people on our staffwho love fantasy and romance.
We have um a number, oddly men,who read uh history and the
(08:49):
political stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (08:50):
And what about your children's section?
SPEAKER_00 (08:52):
So I also love children's books.
Um and my sister-in-law isworking with us, and she
actually has a degree inchildren's literature, and then
we also have a wonderful umchildren's bookseller who helps
us a lot and comes in onSaturdays, and she's an expert
in the field, and um, so that'sbeen really helpful as we're
building that up.
SPEAKER_02 (09:10):
Our bookstore is about 25% uh children, so
there's a really big robustchildren's section.
SPEAKER_01 (09:15):
And thank goodness we're seeing more diversity in
book publishing for children,uh, because it's so important
that children see themselvesrepresented on bookshelves.
SPEAKER_00 (09:25):
Absolutely.
And the thing that's soimportant and so interesting
about this is the children.
People have been saying foryears, but it's so true.
Like it really helps to seeyourself in a book.
So even if their parents aren'tlooking for it, they will
automatically sort of walktoward the books where there are
characters that look like them.
And that alone tells you whyit's so important to have such
(09:48):
diverse titles and settings andcharacters and authors.
Um, it's important, it'simportant for them to see
themselves in these books andsee themselves as, you know,
main characters um and justregular everyday children in
these books, you know, savingthe world and poetry and just
solving mysteries.
Solving mysteries.
(10:08):
It's um going on adventures.
Yes.
So it's a it's a shame that ittook so long.
Um there were such few titles,you know, years ago, but it's
really changed a lot,thankfully.
Um and I'm just so happy when wesee a child pick up a book that
they're excited about or thatthey think it reminds them of
themselves or their friends ortheir family.
(10:30):
It's just so necessary.
SPEAKER_01 (10:32):
And can you talk a little about the diversity of
Bethesda?
SPEAKER_02 (10:36):
Yeah, so our bookstore is in Bethesda,
Maryland.
We're about um maybe two miles,two to three miles from the DC
border.
So it's just right over theline.
Um it is a relatively affluentsuburban area.
It's not the most diversepopulation, but we find that the
(10:59):
store does attract a prettydiverse readership.
So it may not be people who livewithin a mile of the store, but
maybe they work in theneighborhood or they're, you
know, just there.
So um I've actually beenpleasantly surprised by the
diversity of our clientele.
I think we were a little worriedin the beginning that it was
gonna feel really white and ithasn't, which is nice.
(11:20):
We do make a real effort tostock even beyond the kids'
section, diversity of authorsand voices and viewpoints and
perspectives.
And um, I would hope that anyonewalking into the store of any
background would find somethingon the shelf that either speaks
(11:40):
to their experience or thatthey, like Amy said, that they
can either identify with theauthor or identify with the
subject or something.
So it's um it's more diversethan we expected.
SPEAKER_01 (11:51):
And Gail, you've also hosted over 160 podcast
episodes on digital marketingand we also review books on your
blog every day I write the book.
Your experience in marketingmust come in handy when
promoting the bookshop.
How important is it for indiebookshops to have a presence on
social media?
(12:11):
And how important are personalhonor stories in social media
content?
SPEAKER_02 (12:16):
Well, I mean, I've spent my career basically
working in social media.
Um, I used to run social mediafor a large TV network, and it's
to me it's always been aboutestablishing a um genuine
connection with your audience,whether it's through humor,
whether it's through education,whether it's through
inspiration.
Social media is a fantasticvehicle for establishing that
(12:38):
type of connection.
I know social media has allkinds of problems and has led to
all kinds of problems.
But speaking about the positivesides of it, it does foster
community, is a really immediateand um authentic vehicle for
communicating and connecting.
And for us, social media hasbeen something we've done from
(13:00):
the beginning.
I mean, it's free, first of all,which is great.
I mean, unless you put paidspend behind it, but certainly
as a bookstore starting outwithout a big marketing budget,
or frankly, without anymarketing budget, um, social
media has been really effective.
And we have a great social mediamanager right now who comes in
with all kinds of ideas ofthings she has seen on Instagram
(13:20):
or TikTok and has us createthese silly videos in the store.
And people love them.
And we get comments all the timeabout our social media.
Oh, you guys are killing it onInstagram, or um, I learned
about this store on Instagram,or I loved what you know, I saw
this book on your TikTok.
And so we we know it's working.
(13:40):
You know, social media, it'sreally hard to actually
calculate an ROI.
I think it's sort of it's auseless task because so much of
social media is ephemeral andyou know it's it's intangible,
but we feel that our socialmedia platforms really reflect
who we are as or the personalityof our store, which is kind of
(14:02):
playful and friendly and open.
We try to make sure that all ofour employees get airtime, so we
have her come on a different dayof the week each time so that
she's getting different peoplewho are there.
And um it, I don't know.
I think it's a great engagementtool.
SPEAKER_01 (14:17):
I do too.
And as much negativity as we areuh confronted with with social
media, there's also the flipside, and I think it's really
difficult if you have a smallbusiness uh not to be on social
media.
It's a great way to buildcommunity.
I think if we take a good lookat what happened during lockdown
and how bookshops relied onsocial media to show what books
(14:41):
they had in the store so thatpeople could order them and
either come and pick them upoutside the bookshop or have
them delivered.
I don't know that we would havegotten through that if it hadn't
been for social media.
One thing that bothers me aboutplatforms such as Goodreads and
Amazon is that it's become thenorm for every man and his dog
to become a book reviewer.
(15:02):
And personally, I don't talkabout books that I don't like.
Uh I used to review books forthe New York Journal of Books
that is sadly closed.
But I just find that people arecriticizing books for the wrong
reasons.
Like I bought this book and Ididn't know it was going to be a
sci-fi book, and they'll give itone star.
(15:22):
And when you get a few of thosekinds of negative reviews and
silly reviews, it brings downthe overall rating for that
particular author's books.
I'd love your thoughts on this.
Amy, would you like to go first?
SPEAKER_00 (15:35):
Sure.
I mean, there are so manyexcellent books out there.
Why spend the time complainingabout a book, I guess?
Um, and that is one thing I loveabout doing so many things on
social media is that I justthere are so many books I want
to talk about, and Gail wants totalk about, and our booksellers
want to talk about.
And so um just putting that outthere because we want people to
(15:57):
know what's great out thereright now.
And so that's really the focus,and I think that's sort of the
important focus.
I think in general, I would muchrather share what we like and
and what we think people wouldlike than criticize books that
maybe aren't our thing.
And also I feel like many timesif I'm not that crazy about a
book, somebody else is, andthere is a reason for that.
SPEAKER_01 (16:20):
Um, whether it's you know, just like any art form,
it's subjective, right?
SPEAKER_00 (16:24):
Yeah, yeah.
We love to we love to share whatwe love to read and what we
think other people will love toread.
And I think that's the focus.
SPEAKER_01 (16:31):
Gail, you've been a book reviewer.
What are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_02 (16:34):
I have a slightly different perspective on that.
Um I was just gonna say, becauseI've spent 20 years writing this
book review blog.
And one of the things thatpeople always tell me about the
blog is they love how honest Iam.
And that if, you know, I havedefinitely written negative
reviews before.
Um, even authors I love, I'vewritten negative reviews of if I
just didn't love the book.
So transitioning to thebookstore has been a challenge
(16:57):
because I don't want to beputting out negative content
about books for many, manyreasons.
Like Amy said, you know, we wantto be championing great books.
There's so many good ones outthere.
Um, you never know when anauthor might be, you know,
looking into someplace to havean event.
And I would hate for them tofind something negative that I
wrote about a book.
So I've tried to really tempermy reviews.
(17:18):
I've skipped some reviews, um,which is something I never used
to do, but I've I've notreviewed some books that I've
read because I didn't love them,or I've just tried to be um more
balanced in the review, or justtry to focus on the positive, or
say, like, you know, this mightnot have worked for me, but
here's the reader that this bookwould be good for.
SPEAKER_01 (17:37):
Tell me about the Indiegogo campaign you both
created to raise money forconstruction and inventory of
Wonderland books.
And what ideas did you come upwith to gain interest in people
donating?
SPEAKER_02 (17:50):
We funded this bookstore really on our own.
Um, we didn't take out loans,you know, like small business
loans.
We we each contributed a certainamount of our own personal
money, you know, and for that wemight have taken out loans, but
it wasn't like uh something wedid for the books as a
bookstore.
But we did do an Indiegogocampaign, which was very
successful and helped us raiseforty two thousand dollars, was
(18:13):
it?
SPEAKER_00 (18:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (18:14):
So in order to get those forty-two thousand
dollars, we came up with kind ofa tier of things that you would
get depending on you know whatyou were comfortable donating.
And, you know, we started smallwith like a sticker and a
bookmark and then a water bottleand then a tote bag, and then we
kind of tried to get kind ofcreative and we did um, you
(18:35):
know, one thing we loved was for$500, you got to curate a shelf
in the store for I think wepromised a week, but it's really
turned out to be more like amonth.
Um, but you know, for somepeople, you know, they love the
idea of coming up with 15 or 20books that they love and seeing
their love to see what they picktoo.
SPEAKER_00 (18:52):
It's um definitely some different titles that maybe
we wouldn't have had on, youknow, it's been really fun.
SPEAKER_02 (18:58):
Absolutely.
And we put a little bio and aphoto of the person and uh they
really enjoy.
They come in and take a pictureof it.
And what were some of the otherthings we did?
Uh, signage on the wall.
We you for you know a certainamount of money, you've got your
name on the wall.
So we have a nice thing.
We also worked with some localbook clubs, and um, we got about
(19:18):
eight book clubs, and theycontributed um a certain amount
of money and they got their nameon the wall as a book club and
some special events in there umthat they've been able to
attend, like some holidaypreview type stuff or speed
dating with books where Amy andI will just recommend a whole
bunch of books, you know,quickly in succession.
Um, they got a special limitedhours.
SPEAKER_00 (19:40):
Yeah, they get to come in after hours.
We lock the doors and they getto hang out in the bookstore.
And it's yeah, right.
It's been a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_01 (19:47):
They're great ideas.
Did you use the money from theIndiegogo campaign mainly as
kind of inside construction ofthe shop, building bookshelves,
et cetera?
SPEAKER_02 (19:57):
Yeah, I just kind of went into the big fund.
SPEAKER_00 (19:59):
Yeah, although it sort of equaled, we were able to
dull it out and see exactly, youknow, what it did go to.
So it did go to the bookshelves.
SPEAKER_02 (20:08):
Yeah, the bookshelves.
SPEAKER_00 (20:09):
Um, and it did go to inventory.
And um, you know, it was it wasstrange to set it up.
I was very nervous about it.
It felt weird, but the thingthat was amazing was people
wanted to.
They were coming to us andasking to do it.
Um, and then the like sort ofamazing part of it is they're
(20:30):
all a little part of thebookstore now.
And I think it feels good.
Either whether their name is onthe wall or we had special bags
made up for people who donatedsome money that we it says
Wonderland Superstar.
So, like the people that we seewith the superstar bags, we know
they were there from thebeginning.
And it's just, I think they werehappy to be a part of it.
And we just feel so much warmthwhen we're out there and we know
(20:51):
these people supported us to getthe bookstore up and running.
It's been um, there's a lot morebenefit than the the money that
went with it.
SPEAKER_01 (20:58):
Yeah.
I'm glad you brought up the wordcommunity because to me that's
what indie bookshops are aboutbuilding community inside and
outside the store.
Can you talk about how you'vedone both, whether it's through
school programs, donating booksto hospitals or prisons?
And I do want to hear about yourpet adoption program.
SPEAKER_02 (21:19):
Yeah, yeah.
One of the things that's beenthe most effective in building
community, and we we borrowedthis idea from another
bookstore, so we don't takecredit for it, but we take a
Polaroid photo of every dog thatcomes into the store and we post
it on the wall with their nameon it because we're a very
dog-friendly store.
And someone was doing a littlearticle about this and asked us,
(21:40):
and I think this was alreadythree weeks ago.
I counted, we have 560 pictures.
SPEAKER_01 (21:46):
Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_02 (21:47):
And we only opened in December.
So we love the fact that peoplebring their dogs in.
Sometimes they come in just forthe purpose of getting their dog
on the wall.
SPEAKER_00 (21:55):
We've had three cats, yeah, and there are three
cats on the wall.
SPEAKER_02 (21:58):
Um, yeah, we've had dogs who have passed away since
their pictures were taken andtheir owners come back in.
So the dog wall is a greatcommunity builder.
We have also done two dogadoption events.
Um we have participated in somecommunity events that have taken
place in other areas like umcommunity center, um, like
(22:22):
artisan fairs, or where we'vepartnered with um a local
synagogue and we're doing a bookclub program with them.
We've got three authors comingin.
That's part of a Wednesday'swriting, Wednesday reading club
thing that they're doing.
SPEAKER_00 (22:38):
Um we've partnered with an open book foundation.
So Title I schools that arehaving an author visit um our
customers, and we buy books.
So every child who sees thatauthor gets to walk out of that
school with one of those books.
We donate books to the hospital,Catholic charities was looking
for um books for new refugees,uh, so children who were trying
(23:02):
to learn English, and we've beenable to do that.
SPEAKER_02 (23:04):
Bookstores get a lot of damaged books.
Uh, they come in from thepublisher and they've they're
damaged.
So we report them, we get creditfor them, and then they say you
can donate or destroy them.
So what we do with them is webox them up, and then actually
she's coming today.
Uh, there's a woman who works atGeorgetown Hospital, and she
collects those books and hascreated a library for patients
(23:27):
in the hospital.
And in fact, she's expanding itnow to include nurses.
So they're going to create alittle library in like the
nurses' station, too.
So, I mean, it's this is aneffortless thing for us.
All we have to do is tell herthat the books are available,
but it's nice that we feel likethe books are going to a good
place and they're being used.
SPEAKER_01 (23:45):
Yeah, that's wonderful.
I just love that pet adoptionidea, but it must have been
crazy in the bookshop.
SPEAKER_00 (23:51):
It was pretty crazy both times.
The second time there was asweet dog that I still think
about.
His name was Rex, and he'sblind.
And they put him on a little dogbed in the children's section,
and all day long children couldsit down and read read books to
him, and it was just delightful.
It was so sweet.
SPEAKER_01 (24:06):
Oh my goodness, that's so heartwarming to hear.
He sounds like the perfect dogfor the bookshop.
You both attended the indiebookstore owner boot camp run by
Mark Kaufman and his wife, DonnaPaz Kaufman.
How did this prepare you forbecoming an indie bookstore
owner?
And were the classes primarilyabout the economics of running a
business?
(24:27):
Or did you also learn aboutcuration, ordering, and the
design of an indie bookshop?
SPEAKER_00 (24:32):
Well, it was a great concentrated what is it, three
days in Florida at their lovelybookstore, um, Story and Song.
And they went over everything.
We saw, um, and this was beforewe had the store, so it was all
overwhelming and new to us, butthey really did break it down um
in a way that felt digestible.
(24:52):
Um, and we saw, you know, at theend of the day, like sort of how
they ran the numbers and whatbooks they would return for
damages, what it was like toreceive books.
So they took us through thewhole process, and it was great.
It was in a way, there was somuch information coming at us.
It was almost overwhelming, butthey sent us home with a binder.
(25:12):
So it was all in there.
And one of the great benefits ofthis was there were 20 people in
our class and we're still intouch.
So we have a uh a WhatsApp groupand we um help each other out,
we ask for advice, and themajority of them have opened
bookstores since all of them.
So um the community that itbuilt was amazing.
Um, but it did give us a nicelook into how to open and run a
(25:36):
bookstore.
SPEAKER_01 (25:37):
And have you both found that the work you've done
previously, whether it be in lawor journalism or corporate
communications, how would yousay this work has helped you
when you were opening thebookshop and as you uh are
working in it on a day-to-daybasis?
SPEAKER_02 (25:54):
Absolutely.
I mean, yeah, I look back on mycareer and it like absolutely
led me to this point.
You know, the all thecommunications uh experience I
have has been really helpfulwith, you know, writing
newsletters or doing marketingstrategy, reaching out when
we're having a particular eventand figuring out how to, you
know, who do we want to reachout to.
Um, yeah, the legal backgroundis helpful when you're reading a
(26:17):
contract or a lease, negotiatinga lease.
Um, and then certainly all thoseyears and years and years of
book reviewing and immersingmyself in the book world and
listening to book podcasts andgoing to book expo in New York.
I mean, I did I've done that forso, so, so long.
I mean, it's great to kind of bedoing it now professionally
instead of as a hobbyist, butit's all the culmination has all
(26:41):
led me here.
And I was thinking about thisall those years, I'm sure you
feel this way, of wrappingpresents at Christmas and
Hanukkah.
Like we wrap presents all daylong.
We wrap books all day long.
So, like, there's just all theselittle things in my life anyway,
that I feel like I draw on everyday at the store.
And what about you, Amy?
SPEAKER_00 (27:00):
Um, journalism too.
There's definitely, you know, alittle Venn diagram, a little
overlap.
I'm very close with a lot ofpeople I worked with at the post
and people I edited.
So we have a lot of writerscoming in who either wrote for
me or I worked with a lotbecause they they all
journalists all write writebooks or essayists all have
novels.
And so that's been a big help.
(27:22):
I read so much as a living, um,that helps me now, you know,
that was my whole career.
I would read all day and I'dcome home and I'd read at night.
And so, you know, it I think Ithat helps me sort of discern
what I like and what thebookstore should have.
And being a journalist, you movequickly.
And I think that's really helpedme too.
(27:42):
Like you just million tasks aday and you have to think fast
and move fast.
And that I think was somethingthat was just in me.
And that's really helped settingup the bookstore too.
And also as a journalist, youcan't be too intimidated or too
scared.
And so I think that's helpedjust sort of help me plow
forward.
SPEAKER_01 (27:59):
I love that about growing older.
Uh, we can look at our past andthe work we've done, the people
we've met, the locations we'vebeen in, and it starts to all
come together and make sense.
I just love that.
I I think it's really a fun wayto look at life.
Gail, in an article written byDeborah Lynn Bloomberg, you set
of your customers and customersto be, quote, we just want them
(28:23):
to know we're here.
We don't view an interactionwith a customer that doesn't end
up as a sale as a wastedexperience.
End quote.
I see this as the fundamentalphilosophy behind bookselling.
Creating a space where everyonefeels welcome.
It's not just about saying helloor that latest thing, welcome
(28:43):
in, which drives me nuts.
Um, it's about bookselleretiquette and how and when to
speak with people.
What are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_02 (28:52):
Yeah, I mean, we instruct our booksellers that
whenever someone comes in towelcome them in, maybe we do say
welcome in, but we, you know, wesay hello.
We want them to, we don't wantanyone to feel ignored when they
come in, but we also don't wantthem to feel like we're
hovering.
One of the great joys of beingin a bookstore is to wander and
(29:13):
to, you know, get a little lostin it and discover.
And I also think that bookbuying is a really decent
personal thing.
And the books that you choose toread, you know, may reflect very
personal things.
And so um personally, I try notto comment on what people are
buying.
I mean, unless it's a book likeI've just read, um, or it's a
(29:35):
book I've written a shelf talkerfor or something like that.
I I try to give them theirpersonal space, let them, you
know, let that act of buying thebook be private, but at the same
time be friendly.
So maybe we don't talk to themabout what the book is, but we
comment on the weather orsomething that they're wearing.
Say that's a lovely sweater,something like that.
You know, just some personalconnection.
(29:56):
Um, the dog thing really helpsbecause people come in with dogs
all the time and And as a veryeasy way to approach somebody is
just to say, Do you mind if Ipet your dog?
Because we always, there'salways one of us who wants to
pet a dog.
So, and you know, back to thatquote about it's not a waste if
somebody comes in and doesn'tbuy a book.
Well, if they come in and theyhave a positive experience
either with our staff or theyfind something interesting or
(30:18):
they bought a card or something,the likely it is they'll come
back.
You know, the next time theyneed a book or they doing
holidays, they need to buy agift or they're it's Christmas
or whatever, they'll think ofus.
And we want that experience theycame in the first time to have
been positive, but not somethingthat felt like pressure.
SPEAKER_00 (30:37):
I think in general, when people come in, we do
welcome them and we say, let usknow if you need help with
anything.
Um, and I find myself a lot oftimes just saying, just enjoy
yourself.
You know, you're here.
Enjoy yourself.
And, you know, the DC area is ina strange state right now.
Um, a lot of people arefurloughed.
Uh, they might not be spendingtoo much money, but they do look
(30:59):
for a place to go and feel somecomfort.
And we're finding in thebookstore uh someone will come
up to the register and you know,they buy a book.
Well, I have time to read nowbecause I was furloughed and
somebody else pops their headup.
Oh, I was furloughed too.
And so it we're finding thatcommunity there.
And we want people to knowthey're welcome to come in and
let this be the place where theyjust need to sit and breathe for
a minute.
Um, so we don't like to hover,like Gail said, we don't like to
(31:22):
pester people and and act likethey need to buy something.
Like you said earlier, we'rebuilding a community.
So it feels like they, if theyknow we're there and they know
we're not pressuring them,they'll they'll come back.
We'll be on their radar, they'llbe thinking of us.
Um, and that makes us happiertoo.
It just makes it for a verypleasant day.
SPEAKER_01 (31:42):
Yeah, I will say some of my favorite
conversations have been inindependent bookshops, not just
with booksellers, but when uhanother person is in there and
they start talking to you abouta book they've read, or you can
see them just about to go for abook that you've read, and you
can't help yourself.
You have to start talking aboutthat book.
Indie bookshops are aboutcommunity for me and and
(32:03):
conversations.
SPEAKER_00 (32:04):
We love it ourselves.
I don't mean to speak for Gail,but that's I think our favorite
part of the day.
Um, you know, when people starttalking about books or tell us
how much they loved a certainbook and we have that
conversation.
SPEAKER_01 (32:15):
Okay, well, with that idea in mind, I'm gonna ask
you one question and thenanother one.
Uh, but you'll have time tothink about this first one.
If there were a couple of booksthat you would love everyone to
read, what would they be?
Or it be?
Could we just be one book?
And the other is what are youcurrently reading?
SPEAKER_00 (32:33):
Oh boy.
SPEAKER_02 (32:34):
Well, we're kind of reading the same book.
SPEAKER_00 (32:36):
Yeah, again, we're reading the same book and loving
it.
SPEAKER_02 (32:39):
Yeah.
So I think we're both listeningon audio to Buckeye by Patrick
Ryan, which is historicalfiction set in 1939.
39, um ish.
Ish, actually into the four intothe 40s.
And then I think it'll sweep allthe way up to like present day,
um, or at least like at leastlike 2000 or something.
(33:00):
So we're both enjoying that.
It's sort of a traditionalsweeping.
Somebody described it asbig-hearted.
Did you tell me that?
Yeah, yeah, big-hearted book.
SPEAKER_00 (33:10):
Jeffrey, another bookseller.
SPEAKER_02 (33:11):
One of our booksellers, yeah.
So we're both reading that.
Um, I'm also reading a bookcalled Some Bright Nowhere by
Ann Packer, who's going to bevisiting the store the second
week in November.
Um, I read a book by her manyyears ago called The Die from
Clausen's Pier.
Came out in 2005.
So we're talking 20 years ago.
This is a very, very sad bookthat I'm not going to recommend
(33:36):
to everybody because it's sosad.
It's about a husband and a wife.
The wife is in the end stages ofterminal cancer.
And um, it's really about thedynamic between the two of them
and how at her, as she'sapproaching the end of her life,
she actually asks him to moveout.
And she has her two best friendsmove in because she wants this
(33:59):
kind of experience of leavingher life to be with them and not
with him.
And so, of course, it creates alot of hurt and confusion on his
part.
And it's like a very, verydetailed, minute exploration of
the decline in health and all ofthe things that happen.
(34:20):
So it's both emotional andphysical.
It's very hard.
I'm really liking it.
I love her writing style, it'sextremely detailed, but it is
very sad.
And certainly for people whohave been through this with a
loved one, it might be verytriggering.
So this would be, you know,something to keep in mind before
picking that book up.
SPEAKER_01 (34:38):
What an interesting subject to write about.
SPEAKER_02 (34:40):
Yeah, and I think that anyone reading it would
develop great empathy for boththe caregiver and the person
who's ill, just seeing all ofthis perspective.
Um, so I this is a book thatwill probably stay with me for a
very long time.
I'm really, really excited tomeet the author when she's in
town.
She's coming to read at thestore, and I'm looking forward
(35:04):
to that.
SPEAKER_01 (35:04):
Okay, Amy, your turn.
SPEAKER_00 (35:06):
Okay, so I'm listening to Buckeye.
Um, and I just started uh TheLoneliness of Sonia and Sonny.
Um, the the big epic novel by isit Kieran Desai?
SPEAKER_02 (35:18):
I think so.
SPEAKER_00 (35:18):
I think I'm saying that correctly.
Um and it's it's just gonna bewonderful.
Um, and I also just finishedRoad to Tender Hearts uh by
Annie Hartnett, and she's gonnabe in the store on Wednesday.
Um and that book, oh my gosh, Ithat one too, I said was full of
heart and hope.
It was, you know, justmulti-layered moments were very
(35:42):
funny.
Um, there were moments that werevery sad, but it was just, yeah,
it was a delight.
So I'm excited to to listen toher on Wednesday at the store.
SPEAKER_01 (35:50):
And now that second part of the question, which was
if there was a book you couldrecommend for everyone to read,
what would it be?
And I'm I'm not saying you'regonna shove it down their
throat.
It's just that a book that youwish in your heart everyone
would read.
Gail, why don't you start?
SPEAKER_02 (36:06):
For me, it's gonna be a pair of books.
They're nonfiction, they're bothabout working.
One is called Nickel and Dime,it's by Barb Barbara Ehrenreich,
it's an old book, and one iscalled Nomad Land by Jessica
Broder.
And that is, I think it'sBroder.
And that is a new-ish book thatwas made into a movie by the
same name, Nomad Land.
(36:27):
And Nickel and Dimed is aboutpeople who work menial jobs, you
know, they work um as maids inhotels or cleaning people, or
they are working in big boxstores.
Um, and it's about the life ofpeople who live jobs that are
not necessarily fulfillingfinancially or uh
(36:52):
intellectually, and how hard ofa life that is.
You know, I've worked I'veworked in white-collar jobs my
whole life and have never everthought once about the fact that
if I need to use the bathroom, Igo and use the bathroom.
And I was reading nickel anddimed about people who had to
schedule, they were only alloweda certain number of bathroom
(37:14):
breaks a day.
And, you know, maybe they'reworking on a factory floor,
they're working in, you know, abig warehouse.
And the fact that you have tothink about that before getting
up from your desk, um, that waslike eye-opening to me.
And I think about that bookalmost every day.
And no man is about um itinerantworkers who are people that have
(37:35):
to follow, they have to kind ofdrive to find jobs.
And you know, maybe they'reworking in an Amazon work um
warehouse at Christmas time, andthat's that's a temporary need
because Amazon needs more peoplepicking stuff off shelves and
putting them in boxes atChristmas time than it does the
rest of the year, or maybethey're working on a berry farm
(37:56):
in the summer.
But it's people who drive allacross the country in search of
work because they don't havework where they live.
And the loneliness of thatexistence, the exhaustion, the
living out of a van, um, and thecommunities that have sprung up
among these nomad workers, Ijust found that to be a
fascinating book.
And then an equally beautifuland fascinating movie, which I
(38:19):
adored.
So those two books combined, Ithink, especially where we live,
would be eye-opening to peoplebecause it's so foreign from
what they think of as work andwhat they do.
And I think it's gives you atremendous amount of compassion
for the vast majority of peoplein this country and how they
make a living.
SPEAKER_01 (38:39):
Well, they both sound great.
Thank you.
And I'll make sure to put all ofthe books that we talk about in
the show notes.
Amy, what about you?
SPEAKER_00 (38:47):
It's almost cliche because so many people have read
it, but I've also heard from somany people who said they didn't
feel like they had to read itbecause they sort of knew the
story.
But um, Demon Copperhead byBarbara King Salver.
Um, I think the thing I lovedabout that book, and I read it
when it first came out, it stuckwith me.
It was in even in my dreams, thecharacters, um, which has never
(39:07):
happened before.
Talk about getting empathy froma novel.
Um, you know, it's focused onpeople who live in poverty and
Appalachia, who um fall under,you know, end up as drug
addicts.
And it just, they were somultidimensional.
And I just ended up loving everycharacter in that book.
(39:28):
Um, I just think it's reallyimportant that people read it.
I think that it's just sort ofnecessary reading, um, really
humanizes a population of peoplein the US that are often
forgotten or just looked downupon.
So I think pretty much anythingBarbara King Silver does is
amazing.
But this book in particular,just it was so um open-hearted
(39:48):
and I think important for peopleto read this day and age.
That was one.
And then one that I always goback to, and I think Gail liked
this book too long, long ago,um, is the Secret Lives of
Church Ladies.
You like that one too, right?
Um, by Deisha Filia.
Um, is that I that's how we sayher name, but it's just um it's
(40:09):
short stories, and a lot oftimes people say they don't like
short stories, but I think theydo, they just don't see a lot of
um short story books.
But hers is just this great lookat um black women and girls who
are like daring to follow theirdreams, and it just again, it
just shows you a different sideof society and people that maybe
(40:32):
you know you gloss over.
So um again, verymultidimensional, um, just
really loving and human.
SPEAKER_01 (40:39):
I can see why you two get on so well.
Well, because of the differentbooks you've chosen.
They're both to do with empathy.
SPEAKER_02 (40:46):
We're very similar, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (40:48):
Which we didn't know when this all started too much,
but yeah, it's funny.
SPEAKER_02 (40:51):
We now will show up to work and like half the time
we're wearing the same thing.
Yeah.
Unplanned, it just happens.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:58):
And what books are you selling in the store that
are becoming really popularright now?
SPEAKER_02 (41:03):
Well, there's lots of books being sold right now
about tyranny and autocracy andum democracy or the lack
thereof.
Those books are people areleaning in on those or
dystopian.
I mean, this is not just ourstore, this is happening all
over the country, but 1984,Handmaid's Tale.
So those are good, and then onthe other side, there's people
(41:24):
who come in and they don't wantto hear about any of that.
They want to escape, they wantsomething to ease their anxiety
and stress a little bit, andthey come in and they want
wedding people, or they want umFrederick Bachman, or, you know,
like you said, the um AnnieHartnett book.
I think they're looking for justsome reminders about the good in
(41:46):
humanity as opposed to justbeing dashed over the head with
what's going on around us.
SPEAKER_01 (41:50):
Well, thank you so much for being guests on the
show today.
I feel like I've had a littlepeek inside your bookshop
window.
It's wonderful.
SPEAKER_00 (41:58):
Well, thank you so much for having us on.
It's such a treat.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (42:02):
You've been listening to my conversation
with Amy Joyce and GailWeiswasser, co-owners of
Wonderland Books in Bethesda,Maryland.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media.
And remember to subscribe andleave a review wherever you
listen to this podcast.
To find out more about theBookshop Podcast, go to
(42:24):
thebookshoppodcast.com.
And make sure to subscribe andleave a review wherever you
listen to the show.
You can also follow me at MandyJackson Beverly, on Instagram
and Facebook, and on YouTube atthe Bookshop Podcast.
If you have a favorite indiebookshop that you'd like to
suggest we have on the podcast,I'd love to hear from you via
(42:46):
the contact form atthebookshoppodcast.com.
The Bookshop Podcast is writtenand produced by me, Mandy
Jackson Beverly.
Theme music provided by BrianBeverly, and a big thank you to
my assistant, Kaylee Duchinger.
Thanks for listening, and I'llsee you next time.
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