January 1, 2025 • 35 mins
In this episode, we take our first deep dive into the Bible by exploring one of its most famous stories: Adam and Eve. But don’t expect a Sunday school retelling. Together, we unpack unique perspectives and interpretations that push traditional tellings, offering fresh, useful insights into this ancient tale.
Can we ever truly comprehend the balance between free will and divine foresight? Boundless Bible invites you to join us as we explore the story of Adam and Eve with fresh eyes, unraveling its layers of literal and symbolic meaning. From the moment of creation to the pivotal choice that led to humanity's fall, we examine this ancient narrative as a reflection of our own lives, teetering between curiosity and consequence. We promise you a journey that goes beyond the surface to question why choice was given if the outcome was foreseen, and how this timeless story continues to echo the universal human condition.
Whether you’re a Christian, a skeptic, or somewhere in between, we promise you’ll hear something new. Is this a story about sin, choice, consciousness, or something else entirely? We each bring a different lens—literal, poetic, and philosophical—to this foundational narrative and uncover layers of meaning that might just change the way you see it... or feel it.
What You’ll Learn in This Episode:
- How the story of Adam and Eve can be interpreted beyond literal readings.
- Why the Tree of Knowledge might represent more than just temptation.
- Perspectives on what this story says about humanity, choice, and consciousness.
Have a topic, verse, or story you'd like us to cover?
- Tell us on the socials at @theboundlessbible:
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
David Shapiro (00:02):
Welcome to the Boundless Bible.
My name is David Shapiro, hey,I'm Javi Marquez and I'm Jason
Holloway.
Javi Marquez (00:14):
All right, guys.
Well, today we're going to talkabout Genesis, but really what
we want to talk about iseveryone's favorite couple,
which is Adam and Eve.
Jason Holloway (00:22):
You think you know them, you think you know
the story, but do you Do youknow?
Javi Marquez (00:27):
Do you know the story of Adam and Eve?
Let's go deeper.
Let's go deeper, well, here.
Jason Holloway (00:32):
So the story is one that we all think that we
know.
In fact, it's so a part of ourculture that you ask anybody if
they know the Adam and Eve storyand they're going to go.
Yeah, adam came from earth andEve was pulled from his rib.
They lived in the Garden ofEden.
There was a tree.
They decided to eat from it andthe serpent did that and then
they got kicked out.
(00:52):
That's the story.
Everybody seems to know thatstory, right, but it's just not
that simple.
It's not that simple.
I mean, especially you guys.
Maybe you start talking aboutit because you guys are kind of
the more literal takers of it.
Javi Marquez (01:06):
I think.
Always reading it, I thinkabout the literals in seven days
and God made Adam through thedirt.
But I continue to look furtherinto it.
I'm a little bit more open tothe fact that maybe it's a
little bit poetic.
Genesis that is.
David Shapiro (01:14):
I happen to think it's actually both Agreed.
I think, literally, god madefirst man, first woman.
It had to have come at somepoint, first man, first woman
and named him Adam and Eve.
So I believe it literallyhappened.
However, if you look at Adamand Eve, or Adam and Chava as
their original names were, adammeans humanity or man, chava
(01:35):
means to breathe or life, so youliterally have both of those
things happening.
You have something very poetichappening here and you also have
something literally that'shappening.
And when they, when you look atthe tree and them eating of the
tree of knowledge, of good andevil, um, even the tree itself,
when you look at differentcultures of the tree and what
that represents, it's the roots,it's, uh, life, it's there's,
(01:57):
there's things that involve thetree, which I think is they
literally ate from somethingthey weren't supposed to, and
it's also very poetic what theyate from.
Jason Holloway (02:05):
Yeah, and that's kind of what we've been talking
about here is it doesn't haveto be one or the other, it can
be one and the other.
So for me, this was a story youknow I grew up with as a child
and I thought I knew it and Iwent okay, I know it, and it's
just a story about origin.
It's just a history rightlearned growing up where we come
from yeah, and then and then,as I got older, I started to
have challenges.
(02:25):
Personally, I started to havechallenge with that because
there's certain I don't knowphilosophical questions like why
did god give the choice at all?
If we were?
Ultimately, he knew we weregoing to sin and then we're
going to be kicked out, whywould he even give us that
choice?
Like you know, that wassomething I struggled with for a
long time.
Um, and we'll get that second.
You guys, I think a lot ofpeople struggle with that.
I something I struggled withfor a long time.
We'll get that in a second.
You guys got something to talkabout.
David Shapiro (02:45):
I think a lot of people struggle with that I
definitely think I hear that allthe time which is that struggle
between free will, which iswhat God ultimately gave us, and
giving us the free will when heknew what we were going to do
with it.
Javi Marquez (02:56):
Yeah, yeah.
I think the beauty of it is thefree will, although Adam and
eve went another way with it andand we did what humans do.
But free will is a beautifulthing when you really look at it
.
Just uh, I look at it as love,and you cannot love without
having free will yeah, for me.
Jason Holloway (03:17):
It took me a very you guys seem to be way
ahead of me, because it took mea very long time to figure that
out.
I mean, it was like for thelongest time I was like that
seems rude of God.
Why give me this choice whenyou know I'm going to take it,
and then it's my you know, andthen I have to blame you for
giving me that, and that's avery immature way of looking at
it.
God is so complicated, but asI've gotten older, I can see it
now and I'm like it doesn'tmatter.
(03:47):
It's still an origin story offree will and we are humans.
It's a nature of who we are.
Story, when presented with here, is everything you could ever
possibly need and want, and purehappiness and pure joy or the
unknown thing over there and I'mnot even going to call that sin
at this point, I'm going tocall it the unknown thing.
Yeah, that's what humans go forwe are notoriously curious, we
(04:10):
are notoriously drawn to thatwhich we don't know, and that's
what.
And that's what the story isfor me now absolutely.
David Shapiro (04:18):
And I also hear other people always saying you
know, hey, adam and eve causedthe first fall.
Adam and eve, this adam and evethat I'm going.
No, it is a story of man.
Every man would.
Other people always saying, youknow, hey, adam and Eve calls
the first fall.
Adam and Eve, this Adam and Eve, that I'm going.
No, it is a story of man.
Every man would have taken thatchoice.
We all do and I am going tocall it sin.
We all do sin.
And had I been back there andsomebody said, hey, you can be
(04:39):
God-like by eating this, okay, Imight want to try to take a you
know a little bite and seewhere that goes.
Uh, because we are human and wedo have that curiosity and we
always want more.
It's never enough, we want more.
Yeah, and and I understand thatperspective and going I do feel
like it's literal.
This is literally humans.
Uh, I do feel like god gave usfree will.
(05:01):
Um, I think about my kids andyou know this example has been
used before, which you, if mykids are forced to love me, is
it going to feel the same for me?
No, they have the free will tolove me.
That means a whole lot more.
God knows that he doesn't wantto force us to be robots.
No, he wants to feel that love,the way he loves us, which is
free will and freely so he gavethat to Adam and Eve and they
(05:25):
did what every one of us wouldhave done.
Jason Holloway (05:26):
They were definitely free, and we continue
to do it every day Like this isone of the stories that that
you know.
I've heard somebody say beforethat when you read the Bible,
don't read it as what happened.
Read it as what is happeningnow.
And I love this idea that it'snot about Adam and Eve or, again
, even in the Hebrew, it's notabout human and the breath of
life, and the human breath oflife being one in which did eat
(05:49):
from the tree, but it's one thatcontinues to eat from the tree.
We are Adam and Eve all thetime.
How many of us have not been inour lives and feeling very
comfortable and very satisfied?
And then some little likesomething wriggles in the back
of our brain.
I'm like like what if I didthat, or what would this be like
?
Like we're eating of the treeall the time.
It's just we're, we're satingour curiosity, which often leads
(06:11):
us to the worst parts of ourlives.
But this is the story, right,but or right?
Javi Marquez (06:18):
and wrong, if I could say.
I think in the story here theserpent went to the eve and kind
of brought that curiosity of it.
It wasn't really them exploringto see the tree and wanted to
try to get the apple.
Is that right In the sense ofshe didn't, they didn't think of
exploring out and tastinganything from that tree or or
trying anything from that treeuntil the serpent kind of came
(06:38):
in and gave them that curiosity?
Jason Holloway (06:40):
Well, to me, again, that's that.
That's, that's why the originof the devil story, the origin
of Satan's story, is the serpent.
Like we are guided by littleweird thoughts in our head that
tell us to pay attention to thisthing over there, and that's
what happened there.
David Shapiro (06:52):
And I think that what you said earlier, Jason,
about you know that there isgoing to be a feeling, a
downfall, after that feeling.
Even today, when we dosomething sinful, how we have
some sort of feeling, some sortof downfall.
At that point what happens isinstantly what do they do?
They clothe themselves, theystart to feel something where
they have to clothe themselvesand what that feeling is is
(07:14):
shame, Shame.
And that's the first time thatshame enters this world.
It did not exist beforehand.
Right, they were naked, livingwith God.
All of a sudden, there's thedownfall and they feel shameful
and they cover themselves up.
And I think that that's a partwhere you start to look at how
we are today.
You look around social media,you look around TV, you look at
(07:35):
what you know our culture isdoing, and everything is about
how you look and how you presentyourself in the materialistic
world.
For sure and that's exactlywhere it entered in is that
moment you have shame thatenters the world, and some
people on social media do nothave shame.
Javi Marquez (07:50):
Very fair, yeah, very fair.
Jason Holloway (07:51):
You know I would .
I would also like to add alevel to what you just said.
You know, even again, the wordshame for me for a very long
time was a word like, well, Idon't feel shame.
Like shame, like.
Especially as a kid I was likeI don't feel shame.
Look, you just said the socialmedia.
People don't feel shame.
But you know what the word youmight use in place of that, if
somebody's having a problem withthe word shame, would be
(08:12):
self-awareness orself-criticality, you, they,
they immediately becameself-critical.
Yes, and critical didn't haveto mean they were, you know,
they hated themselves, but itmeans that they became aware of
themselves and their own faults,right where they had not been
previously.
And I'm going to go back a halfstep and say you know, for me
the origin story of Adam and Eveis also a story of the
separation of the animal natureof animals and the human nature
(08:35):
of humans.
And we separated, we partedthose two consciousness,
consciousness, awareness.
No animal feels the need toclothe itself because it's not
self-critical.
Humans feel the need to clothethemselves because they are
self-critical.
And it's the, besides, theorigin story of human, it's the
origin story of what separateshumans from animals.
David Shapiro (08:56):
I'm going to actually fast forward.
We will get back to Genesis,but I'm going to fast forward
for a second.
When you look at Mark 14, 51,52, this is the part in the
garden when Jesus is beingarrested yeah, and all of a
sudden there is this littlesection where a boy comes onto
the stage and a guard grabs him,he takes off his garment and
(09:19):
runs off naked and there's a lotof scholarly debate over who
this kid is.
Is this Mark putting himself,as you know?
A boy running away from Jesusand running away from his
responsibilities?
But what I actually think it isand it's a beautiful moment is
when we enter sin into the world.
When Adam and Eve started sin,they felt like they had to
(09:39):
clothe themselves.
They felt that self-confidenceissue and they felt ashamed and
they said I need to clothemyself.
Well, here's a moment whereJesus is about to do everything
to undo that, to connect us backwith the Lord, to give us that
path, that covenant, and whathappens is somebody takes their
clothes off.
It's just a beautiful moment ofyou don't have to feel this
(10:00):
shame anymore.
You're part of Jesus.
Jason Holloway (10:02):
Christ, and that's the night before he's
crucified too, which makes thateven stronger right.
David Shapiro (10:05):
Absolutely so I just feel like that moment and
it's a moment where listen.
There are a lot of scholars andpastors that don't even know
that that exists in the Bible.
It's just a very quick line,but I think it ties that up so
nicely, saying you don't have tobe ashamed anymore.
You can take your clothes offagain poetically, Poetically,
right.
You can take your clothes offagain poetically, poetically,
right.
Jason Holloway (10:24):
You can take your clothes off and be less
self-critical, because, becauseGod, because Jesus is cleansing
you, jesus's death, that'scoming the next day, is going to
cleanse you of thatself-criticality, of that shame,
that we made full circle ofshame, self-criticality,
self-criticality, back to shame.
And, and it does that, andthat's what, that's what makes
the Bible so beautiful is whenyou read it in all of its layers
, you can, you can always tiethese things back together and
(10:46):
you know, the other thing too is, right after the shame portion
is there's so much to talk aboutwith the shame portion, right,
like what's the first thing thatyou know?
First of all, god says whereare you?
David Shapiro (10:55):
Which is incredible, because God knows
where they are.
He knows that they're in thegarden, he knows exactly where
they are.
I think the where are you iswhere's your head at?
Yeah, where's your heart at?
Where are you?
It's a.
It's a much deeper questionthan just where are you, javi,
what do you think of?
Jason Holloway (11:11):
when you hear that.
Javi Marquez (11:13):
Where are you?
Um, yeah, I agree, I think,when God talks and says to Adam
and Eve where are you?
What did you do?
You know, I told youspecifically not to do this
thing, not to eat from the, the,the tree of knowledge.
You did, where are you?
Why?
(11:33):
Who kind?
Of who who kind of manipulatedyou, right?
I think it's also like you didnot know that you couldn't have
done that yourself.
What's going on?
Like what poisoned your mind?
Jason Holloway (11:44):
So that's what when I hear that, that's what I
think, like where are you, isthat?
And I've got a again.
This is something that when Iwas a child and as I'm an older
adult now I have to like look atmy before and after.
And before I said, okay, well,it's just, they're away from God
and it wasn't.
There wasn't much more to it.
And the more I read into it,the more I think you know.
God knows where you are.
(12:05):
So if he's asking you, it'sjust an illusion of space.
There wasn't space before.
God was with the humans, he wastogether, he was one with them,
and to be able and to have toask it all just means it's a way
of saying you are no longerwith me, you are no longer close
to me, you are no longer tiedto me in your thinking and your
feeling, and he knew where theywere.
(12:32):
It's just that the questionitself is for the reader.
It's not.
It's not for Adam and Eve.
The question is for the readerto understand that there is a
distance now between him andthem.
And that's what sin does.
It puts a distance between youand God, and every time you
choose yourself over him, youare creating distance between
you and God, and again see whatI mean.
Like this is like.
That's not the book I read whenI was 12 or 16 or even 20.
(12:54):
Like it's, it's only a bookthat I can read now, when I look
at it this way, and so, whetherit's true or not, and I, I
won't stand here and say it'snot true.
I say I.
I also, I always say I have astruggle with the literality.
But that's not me saying Idon't think it's true, it's just
saying I struggle with it.
But I'm able to open myself upto its meaning and to its impact
(13:16):
on my life when I take two orthree steps back and look at it
from this kind of distance.
Javi Marquez (13:20):
Well, I think, even listening to the story of
Adam and Eve and the shame, andI love how God still reconciles
that, although they were cursed,in a sense, they were still
loved.
He was still with them in a way, even though he kicked them out
of the garden and he, you know,he had to do certain things
(13:41):
like saying that, you know, manwill forever, you know, sweat
from their brow and work andwomen would always labor and go
through pain, labor pains orwhatever or not labor pains, but
just go through pains, right,the labor pains, I guess.
And I love how God stillreconciles that which brings us
to Jesus.
He had a sacrifice the way hedid.
(14:01):
He had a sacrifice for himselfto reconcile our relationship
back to God.
David Shapiro (14:05):
You know, jason, it's interesting that you said
that before about yourinterpretation of where are you.
I never really thought aboutthat way, but the next lines
actually bring it really closeto what you're saying.
It's kind of hits home for me,which all of a sudden just kind
of again, you just gave me alittle bit of color into my
black and white of this story.
Um, and the next thing that Godasks literally is is you know,
(14:27):
when he's asking where they are?
And they said we were scared,so we clothed ourselves, we were
naked.
And God says who told you youwere naked?
It's again more separation.
It's not how God intended themto be.
I created you this way.
It wasn't like that in thebeginning.
Yeah, you've separated yourselffrom me, and now he's going who
even told you you were naked?
That me.
And now he's going who eventold you you were naked?
(14:47):
That's not something that Iever told you.
It's not how I created you.
So it's really.
It's cool, cause now so manydifferent thoughts are rushing
through my head by you justsaying that I've never thought
about it that way and man itjust.
I almost want to go back andjust kind of study that.
Jason Holloway (14:59):
And read the whole thing again.
I mean, that's the thing islike.
That's the beauty I found thisyear is like it only.
It only takes one little clicklike that and all of a sudden 12
other things just fall right inplace.
Then you go back and read themand it's a whole different book
again.
Even, javi, what you were justsaying.
They were cursed right and theyhad to get sent out of the
garden.
A lot of people were likethat's really wrathful and
that's terrible.
Let's be honest, take a stepback in the book.
(15:22):
He told them when they ate fromthe tree of knowledge, they
would die.
That's what he told them.
If you eat that, you will die.
Yes, he did they notimmediately, right immediately.
David Shapiro (15:34):
He actually said you know?
Javi Marquez (15:34):
what I live like 900 years right I I love you and
I really wish he hadn't madethis 900 years.
Jason Holloway (15:43):
Is that I you?
know, absolutely yes.
But he didn't kill them.
In fact, he had mercy on themand he said instead of dying, as
I told you you would, I'm goingto have mercy on you and let
you continue to live, and I'mgoing to give you chance after
chance, including yourdescendants, to try and try and
try and rectify this sin as manytimes as you can.
(16:03):
And we're humans so we couldn't.
So what happened?
Just what you said.
He brought Jesus to the worldto fix what we were unable to
fix.
Now, in the beginning, that's aharsh story.
I kick you out of Eden, allgreatness is gone to you.
You have all these negatives,but eventually he's going to
rectify it in another way.
Javi Marquez (16:19):
Yeah, I'm glad you brought it up because it's true
.
I mean, you hear it, you readand you go wow, that's a harsh
God.
I don't want to serve a Godlike that, I don't want to pray
to a God like that, I don't wantto seek a God like that, a God
like that.
But when you bring it down tothe human aspect of it, of your
daily life, if you're a parentyourself and you have kids and
they do something wrong, you'renot going to clap and go, hey,
(16:41):
that's great.
Yeah, you're probably going topunish them, you're probably
going to discipline them andyou're going to tell them what's
right and wrong.
And that's what I love about God.
He did that, but also he stillreminded us that we still have a
relationship together.
He didn't separate and go well,you go over there and I never
want to talk to you, don't everseek me.
No, I'm still with you, right,moving through the life.
(17:04):
I still want a relationshipwith you.
I'm going to send you my son toto to reconcile our
relationship, because you guysmessed it up so many years.
Jason Holloway (17:11):
Sorry, I'm going in a rant no, you're great,
you're great, but you know.
I get so passionate about thisbecause God is so loving, even
though we messed up so manytimes but he puts any, but he
gives the responsibility to you,like I'm going to be with you
but you're going to have to makeyour choices, and this is where
that whole free will thing camefrom.
And again, another thing I hada lot of problem with for a long
(17:32):
time was free will versuspredestination Right.
But when I look back at Genesis,it's right there, we have free
will.
It's right there, we had he was.
He knew we had free will.
He's going to give us mercy andgrace and love and he was going
to walk us through that process, but he wasn't going to lay the
path out and go.
This is how you fix it, youknow.
Hold on, let me.
Let me take a step back.
Javi Marquez (17:56):
What I really mean to say there is that the path
is laid out, but it's still upto us to follow it.
And then people will say like,well then he, if it wasn't free
will?
He knew it was going to happen,because he's a guy who knows
what.
Why do it right?
Why even create them?
David Shapiro (18:05):
and I feel like his reaction is exactly right
well, I also knew that my childwas going to be a baby, needing
diapers changed, keeping me upat night, causing trouble as a
teenager why would I still hadthem, and I love them, but I
think we also forget one thing.
We look at original sin and wego, hey, the sin was the aid of
(18:26):
the tree.
But there's something thathappened afterwards, because and
this is I'm sorry for husbandand wives who are listening
right now, but you might end upstarting a battle over this um,
I believe god gave them a chanceto repent and what happened is
oh so good he did.
Eve turned around and said, hey, that's the snake's fault that
made me do it, and she did nottake responsibility.
(18:47):
What did adam say?
But adam got even worse becausehe said that it was eve and it
was god, because he goes, it wasyour creation, your creation,
that caused me to sin.
So adam didn't man up no, andhow many?
Times in a relationship, do youknow, husbands and wives threw
each other under the bus insteadof take responsibility and
protect each other.
(19:07):
I think that was a secondchance they had.
So God wasn't just being crueland going hey, you messed up
once, get out when everyone goes, man, that's really a wrathful
God.
No, no, he gave them theopportunity, I believe, to
repent.
He did, and they wentcompletely opposite way.
Go, I'm going to blame you, god.
And how?
Jason Holloway (19:24):
many times do we do that.
That's so good.
That's the present tense we'retalking about too, like.
Not only do we continue tochoose to eat from the tree, but
you know the the uh not onlydoes not only does he, you know,
do we continue to do that on adaily basis.
We continue to blame others forour own problems on a regular
basis, always.
(19:44):
And well, yeah, of course.
Of course, I mean like how many, how many atheists?
How many atheists are atheistsbecause they don't like what God
did to them?
Javi Marquez (19:51):
I say that only because, even as a Christian,
people do it too.
They still, they still blameGod for certain things, stuff
like that, and I get that we.
Who else to blame?
Right Is the God of all right,and he knows everything, and he
knows everything.
Why not stop it?
And I always have to bring itup only because so many people
walk away from God because ofthose things.
(20:12):
I agree Of the control aspect.
Well, I'm leaving it up to youand you're not doing what I want
you to do.
Jason Holloway (20:18):
I'll take matters in my own hand, but at
the same time, they're nottaking the responsibility for
themselves that they had increating their own issues and
this is nothing against anybody.
Yeah it's a little harsh, butlike, but it's, it's.
It's real, though.
I mean, look, if you areprobably making choices that are
facilitating the bad thingsthat might be happening to you,
and when you are able to takeresponsibility for that and at
(20:40):
least acknowledge the fact thatmaybe you're playing a bit of a
part in your own story, uh, youknow, all of a sudden you stop
blaming God and you start goingwell, maybe God was leading me
in the right direction.
I just kept making the wrongdecision.
What just?
David Shapiro (20:51):
hit me right now is we get very upset by this
free will idea.
People go no, I want the freewill to do what I want to do.
That's a good point, but wenever give God the free will.
Javi Marquez (21:01):
We get mad when God uses free will.
David Shapiro (21:08):
Whoa, his free will, whoa.
But we're okay, man, if wedon't have free will.
Um, and I think that we look atgod and we go.
I want the genie god.
I don't want the god who hashis free will to do things.
If he does something againstwhat I think is right, all of a
sudden he's bad and wrathful.
I'm not gonna believe in him Idon't have a mic big enough drop
.
Javi Marquez (21:20):
Oh my goodness.
Yeah, that's good.
God's free will wow.
Okay, so let's.
I haven't heard that.
That's a whole differentepisode, that's a whole episode
there, god's free will.
David Shapiro (21:31):
Sorry, again, it was one of those things.
You guys said something.
It just triggered that in mybrain and I realized that you
know we're trying to controlGod's thoughts and actions.
Meanwhile, we're asking him togive us to do what we want them
to do.
Bringing it back to Adam andEve.
Javi Marquez (21:44):
And what the serpent said was if you eat from
this tree, you will be like God.
And that's exactly what it isus knowing, or think we know our
finite brains that we controlour own destiny and our own
things, but not knowing thatwe're so limited so what happens
after the shame shame part?
David Shapiro (22:04):
well, this part I'm just kind of curious about
and is is adam and eve savedbecause they sinned?
And then we know they sin againby, you know not repenting um,
and we know they get kicked outand all that.
But and their final days, whenthey pass, where do they go?
Jason Holloway (22:25):
are they saved, and doesn't Romans say something
about, you know, when Paul's inRome, doesn't he?
Isn't he talking about theresponsibilities that the that
the Jews have to themselves andthe Gentiles that they have to
themselves, and that Jesus cameto save all people?
(22:46):
And I think he even sayssomething in Romans about saving
all those who came before himas well?
David Shapiro (22:54):
so that is a school of thought?
Yes, uh, he does.
He does mention that, and theconversation is that jesus came
to pay the sins past present andfuture right so, yes, there
there is that um, but there isalso the thought that that is
the new covenant, that the oldcovenant, before he came,
wouldn't have existed, um,because they weren't following
(23:16):
that.
So all they would have beenfollowing, all their sin would
have been, is I?
I was living with god, I sinnedagainst god, and that's it.
And that's another school ofthought where, uh, there are
people who feel like adam andeve went to sheol, which is in
in judaism, it's the place ofthe dead.
It has later been debated.
Is this hell?
Is this just kind of a holdingplace?
(23:36):
But, either way, it wasn'theaven.
It wasn't that they went toheaven.
But I have a different take onit, if you don't mind.
Yeah, please, they clothethemselves.
And if they clothe themselves,I believe that was the first
sacrifice.
I believe they sacrificed ananimal to clothe themselves.
Jason Holloway (23:54):
Oh, because they would have needed the hide.
Well, it wasn't the firstsacrifice done by God to clothe
them that's what I've heard toois that it may not have been
Adam and Eve who sacrificed and.
I don't remember where thisinformation comes from maybe I
gotta do a little research andfigure it out but that God was
the one who initiated the firstsacrifice in order to make them
close.
(24:14):
So he was giving the blood ofthe animals before.
That's what I heard also.
But again, I don't have anyenough to hold no, but it is.
David Shapiro (24:20):
There is a first sacrifice right for sure.
Yes, that's fair and and that's,and that would have been, the
repentance, for that's the blood.
That was the purpose.
Uh, the other thing is they didbelieve in God.
They did pass on what happenedin the garden, including their
fall, to their children.
How do we know that?
Because this was writtenhundreds of years later by Moses
(24:43):
.
This is who would have been theauthor of Genesis.
The only way he would haveknown that is for this knowledge
to have been passed down, andpassed down, and passed down.
So you have somebody whobelieves in God, who's admitting
to their sin to their children,who told that story to their
children, who told it to theirchildren, and I believe that
that would mean you have been umrepentant of your sins and
therefore accepted into heaven.
Javi Marquez (25:04):
That's my take and I believe there also are saved
because of those things, butalso because, even though the
covenant was not, the laws werenot out, were not done yet they
weren't out yet, in that senseof until we get they hadn't
dropped yet.
Yeah, they haven't dropped untilMoses and stuff like that.
But I look at Abraham and howhe was saved in that way too,
(25:28):
even before the law.
So I think Adam and Eve, therewas whatever ways that they,
whatever ways that theyreconciled their repentance with
God, happened, and I believethey were still saved without
needing the law and Jesus Christto go through.
You know, does that make sense?
It does.
David Shapiro (25:47):
And there's actually Orthodox thought.
Orthodox thought is that whenJesus was crucified and buried,
the three days that he wasburied, he went to Sheol to free
the souls from Sheol.
That's another Orthodox thought.
I'm not saying that's corrector incorrect, I'm just saying.
Another thought is if they werenot sent to heaven at that
moment for their belief in Godand their repentance.
(26:09):
There is those that say thatthey were also released from
Sheol at the time of JesusChrist.
Regardless.
And that's kind of where youcame in, jason, when you said
you know forgiven of sins past,present, future.
That could have been thatmoment where, according to some
scholars and some differentsects of religions, that they
are released at that moment,when he went back during the
(26:31):
three days, during the threedays, um.
So there's a lot of different,but I believe it all leads to
adam and eve being in heaven.
Yeah, I believe that we will atsome point meet them, which is
a crazy thought to think thatlisten when we, when we pass
away, we might actually be ableto see.
You'll be able to spot them withfig leaves, okay there you go
(26:52):
so might be a couple fightingbecause he blamed her, and
they're the ones fighting inheaven with his head held low.
Jason Holloway (27:04):
Can we go back?
I'm curious if we can go backbecause another thing that used
to get me since we're talkingabout Adam and Eve, why don't we
talk about how they werecreated?
I mean, I think there's somereally interesting stuff in
there too.
Again, the first time I readthe Bible years and years ago,
it was like okay, that's thestory.
God made Adam out of dust orearth and Adam walked around the
(27:25):
planet trying to do some stuffand he was bored and he didn't
have a good mate, and so Godpulled a rib out of Adam and
created Eve.
On the literal sense, like okay, like it's a cool story.
Right, it's a story, it's ahistory of a story that is
supernatural and metaphysical.
But that's all I got out of thetime.
(27:46):
Do you guys get anything elseout of it besides just that?
Javi Marquez (27:51):
As I think about it more, I would think about the
man.
Adam was made from dirt andwe're like us.
We're made through human right,we're right through our mother,
or human right, the beauty ofof man being made through dirt,
what's?
How is he made right?
(28:11):
And to me it's kind of likethat's when the soul was given
you know what?
Jason Holloway (28:16):
I'm saying like there's a spirit that's when the
soul was given to the, to theground, to the earth, to the
physical to man.
Javi Marquez (28:23):
I think.
I think it's a beauty part ofus and how we're made in so many
ways, us humans, of having, youknow, physical body, but also
also so we have a spirit.
David Shapiro (28:36):
My take on.
It is also going to cause morefighting between husbands and
wives, so I apologize.
I think that one of the thingsthey talk about specifically is
why the rib?
And people say, ok, it's theribs, so that way the woman is
alongside man.
But it very specifically in theBible says helper, helper of
man.
And that is something where youknow, men who have a lot of
(28:57):
machismo say, well, the womenare supposed to be here to be my
helper.
And women say, no, I'm here tobe your equal.
But when I look at the wordhelper, it's the same word that,
exactly the same word used whenthey talk about the Holy Spirit
, the Hebrew word as the HolySpirit being the helper.
The Hebrew word the Hebrew wordyeah as the Holy Spirit.
That's good.
So for women who are out therecheering now, your name is
(29:18):
actually equal to the HolySpirit in the Bible.
So you're not just a helper asin hey, come, plow this field,
yeah, but you're the one toactually give us counsel and
direction, right as the Holy.
Javi Marquez (29:28):
Spirit is, and, if I can say anything about that
with Adam and Eve.
That's the covenant too, right?
That's the agreement that theyhave.
He had God had with us iscultivate the land, right, I
want you to cultivate the land,I want you to take care of this,
the animals and stuff like that, and women.
I want you to give birth andkind of be a helper to man and
(29:50):
just kind of take care of this,this earth that I've given you
guys.
David Shapiro (29:54):
See, and that that's where the fighting comes
in is.
Is there, is that thought?
Of okay, man man is the onewho's responsible for taking
care of the land, taking care ofthe animals, and the woman is
there to help him, along withthat, um, and I believe that the
wording is very specific thatshe is to give counsel and
direction as an equal?
Um believe that the wording isvery specific, that she is to
give counsel, and but as anequal, as an equal right.
(30:15):
Um.
Jason Holloway (30:15):
So, women, you're allowed to tell your men
what to do according to thebible, as long as it's helpful,
absolutely um, no, but I thinkit is.
David Shapiro (30:20):
When we start looking at this creation story
again, if you take it literallyand I believe that he literally
did this I think he literallyput adam to sleep, took out one
of his ribs and made, yeah, why?
Because he's god and he can.
Um, and I think that,symbolically, what he did is
beautiful.
He took something so that way,women can be right about, right
aside him, um, that they areequal.
(30:40):
It is something that is next tohim.
His rib, it's not his head,it's not his feet, it's not
something that is greater orless than him.
Uh, so I think symbolicallyit's beautifully.
I think literally it'sbeautifully.
Yeah, uh, beautiful.
And I think that you have thisman and woman who are supposed
to now be in charge of theanimals and the fields and
(31:01):
forget about all the the fall,forget about all of their
cursing they had.
Jason Holloway (31:05):
It's just a beautiful story of man and woman
created by god, and how he didit yeah, and, and for me I'm,
I'm kind of right there with you, but with a, with a twist.
So for me it's like man kind, Iwon't even say man.
Mankind was made out of earth,right, but, and again, it's
either a story or it's anillusion to something bigger.
And to me now, as an adult, I'magain the made out of carbon
(31:28):
and nickel and you know allthese elements and all of the
things that nobody would knowabout at the time.
But it's made out of the samethings, like there's no, there's
only a limited amount of thingsthat can make everything, and
that's what happened.
So, whether it was made fromearth or made from the same
chemicals as there, there'ssomething in that.
So I think that that's true.
I think that then you get towoman being made from a part of
(31:51):
man, and the rib cage you knowyou've said before, it's the.
You know the rib cage is whatprotects your inside.
So the fact that it came fromthe rib is a way to say that
women was made to protect theman in certain ways.
But to me, I see it as, I seeit as the helper too, but I see
it as the helper of an equal,and what I think is so
fascinating about.
You know, the differencebetween male and female is that
(32:12):
they're different yet equal, andthe differences are what
strengthens both.
I think the differences that amale brings.
Javi Marquez (32:22):
It's just like any other partnership.
A hundred percent, If a goodpartnership.
If we all do the same thing,we're going to be missing one.
Jason Holloway (32:29):
A hundred percent.
Javi Marquez (32:29):
We're dropping the ball on the other side, right
one side we're going to bemissing 100.
We're not, we're just missing.
We're dropping the ball on theother side, right.
So if we're able to to uh splitthe work in a sense, you know,
we're able to um, achieve orjust right, it broadens the
capabilities, right like if.
Jason Holloway (32:41):
If the whole world would be populated by men,
it would be one very specifichomogenous thing.
If it were to be populated bywomen, it would be one specific
homogenous thing.
I I heard a Jewish rabbiactually once say that man and
woman are like two planksholding each other up in an
upside down V shape Because youcan't move one or the other.
They need each other to stand,they physically need one another
(33:04):
to be able to balance oneanother out.
Yeah, big time.
You take one out, the other onefalls.
You take the other one out, itfalls.
So it's about, it's a feelingof equality, of being different
but equal.
David Shapiro (33:15):
I'll tell you why .
I feel like literal and poeticwork hand in hand.
Again, jason, you saidsomething I didn't really think
about, but when you think aboutthe rib and what it protects, it
protects the heart, it protectsthe lungs.
Specifically, we look at lungsChava, eve's name the breath,
means breath, that's it.
And and he's literally takenfrom the rib protecting the
(33:36):
breath, um, and it's just again.
You have this poetic sound toit going hey, the rib which
protects the breath, which isher name, is what's used to
produce her.
Um.
But I also look at that asliteral, because there's only
god, there's only theall-powerful that can do
something so beautiful thatwe're talking about.
6,000 years later, we can stillbe debating and go this is the
most beautiful thing everwritten, ever created.
(33:58):
It had to have been done by acreator.
It just couldn't have been doneby happenstance.
I think it's the creator thatdid it.
It's the most incredible thingfor me and I'm going this is
both literal and poetic on alevel that I'll never understand
because I'm not God.
Jason Holloway (34:12):
And that's the thing I find I think I've said
this already on this podcast,but this is the thing that I
find to be so fascinating as Icome back to it Is that it just
has layers upon layers uponlayers upon layers and we're
probably scratching the surfaceof the surface, and it's, I mean
, only divinely inspired, only adivinely inspired creation
(34:35):
could have that much depth andprofundity to it, and I just
there's no, there's never an endto it.
Javi Marquez (34:42):
I mean it's boundless it is boundless indeed
.
Jason Holloway (34:46):
So, guys, I'm sure that we could probably talk
about this for another day ortwo easily.
We have, and we probably willagain.
But we thank you for, guys, I'msure that we could probably
talk about this for another dayor two easily.
We have, and we probably willagain, but we thank you for
tuning in.
If anybody has any addedthoughts, any added
interpretations orconsiderations or things to
throw at us, just so we can geekout over them, whether we do it
(35:07):
on the podcast or not, we'dlove to see that.
If you have questions, if youhave pushback or feedback, again
, we'd love to hear that stuff.
So go to our website,wwwtheboundlessbiblecom, send us
a message and we're going toget to it as soon as we possibly
can.
Javi Marquez (35:23):
Yes, yes, yeah, thank you guys for joining our
discussion on Adam and Eve.
Hopefully you guys learnedsomething.
If not, hopefully you guys wereentertained by our
conversations.
Just the stuff that we'rethinking in our heads.
Jason Holloway (35:37):
We've only got like 65 and three quarter books
left, so we're almost done.
Right, there we go.
Javi Marquez (35:44):
Later guys.
Jason Holloway (35:45):
Thank you, see you next time.
Welcome to the Boundless Bible.
My name is David Shapiro, hey,I'm Javi Marquez and I'm Jason
Holloway.
Javi Marquez (00:14):
All right, guys.
Well, today we're going to talkabout Genesis, but really what
we want to talk about iseveryone's favorite couple,
which is Adam and Eve.
Jason Holloway (00:22):
You think you know them, you think you know
the story, but do you Do youknow?
Javi Marquez (00:27):
Do you know the story of Adam and Eve?
Let's go deeper.
Let's go deeper, well, here.
Jason Holloway (00:32):
So the story is one that we all think that we
know.
In fact, it's so a part of ourculture that you ask anybody if
they know the Adam and Eve storyand they're going to go.
Yeah, adam came from earth andEve was pulled from his rib.
They lived in the Garden ofEden.
There was a tree.
They decided to eat from it andthe serpent did that and then
they got kicked out.
(00:52):
That's the story.
Everybody seems to know thatstory, right, but it's just not
that simple.
It's not that simple.
I mean, especially you guys.
Maybe you start talking aboutit because you guys are kind of
the more literal takers of it.
Javi Marquez (01:06):
I think.
Always reading it, I thinkabout the literals in seven days
and God made Adam through thedirt.
But I continue to look furtherinto it.
I'm a little bit more open tothe fact that maybe it's a
little bit poetic.
Genesis that is.
David Shapiro (01:14):
I happen to think it's actually both Agreed.
I think, literally, god madefirst man, first woman.
It had to have come at somepoint, first man, first woman
and named him Adam and Eve.
So I believe it literallyhappened.
However, if you look at Adamand Eve, or Adam and Chava as
their original names were, adammeans humanity or man, chava
(01:35):
means to breathe or life, so youliterally have both of those
things happening.
You have something very poetichappening here and you also have
something literally that'shappening.
And when they, when you look atthe tree and them eating of the
tree of knowledge, of good andevil, um, even the tree itself,
when you look at differentcultures of the tree and what
that represents, it's the roots,it's, uh, life, it's there's,
(01:57):
there's things that involve thetree, which I think is they
literally ate from somethingthey weren't supposed to, and
it's also very poetic what theyate from.
Jason Holloway (02:05):
Yeah, and that's kind of what we've been talking
about here is it doesn't haveto be one or the other, it can
be one and the other.
So for me, this was a story youknow I grew up with as a child
and I thought I knew it and Iwent okay, I know it, and it's
just a story about origin.
It's just a history rightlearned growing up where we come
from yeah, and then and then,as I got older, I started to
have challenges.
(02:25):
Personally, I started to havechallenge with that because
there's certain I don't knowphilosophical questions like why
did god give the choice at all?
If we were?
Ultimately, he knew we weregoing to sin and then we're
going to be kicked out, whywould he even give us that
choice?
Like you know, that wassomething I struggled with for a
long time.
Um, and we'll get that second.
You guys, I think a lot ofpeople struggle with that.
I something I struggled withfor a long time.
We'll get that in a second.
You guys got something to talkabout.
David Shapiro (02:45):
I think a lot of people struggle with that I
definitely think I hear that allthe time which is that struggle
between free will, which iswhat God ultimately gave us, and
giving us the free will when heknew what we were going to do
with it.
Javi Marquez (02:56):
Yeah, yeah.
I think the beauty of it is thefree will, although Adam and
eve went another way with it andand we did what humans do.
But free will is a beautifulthing when you really look at it
.
Just uh, I look at it as love,and you cannot love without
having free will yeah, for me.
Jason Holloway (03:17):
It took me a very you guys seem to be way
ahead of me, because it took mea very long time to figure that
out.
I mean, it was like for thelongest time I was like that
seems rude of God.
Why give me this choice whenyou know I'm going to take it,
and then it's my you know, andthen I have to blame you for
giving me that, and that's avery immature way of looking at
it.
God is so complicated, but asI've gotten older, I can see it
now and I'm like it doesn'tmatter.
(03:47):
It's still an origin story offree will and we are humans.
It's a nature of who we are.
Story, when presented with here, is everything you could ever
possibly need and want, and purehappiness and pure joy or the
unknown thing over there and I'mnot even going to call that sin
at this point, I'm going tocall it the unknown thing.
Yeah, that's what humans go forwe are notoriously curious, we
(04:10):
are notoriously drawn to thatwhich we don't know, and that's
what.
And that's what the story isfor me now absolutely.
David Shapiro (04:18):
And I also hear other people always saying you
know, hey, adam and eve causedthe first fall.
Adam and eve, this adam and evethat I'm going.
No, it is a story of man.
Every man would.
Other people always saying, youknow, hey, adam and Eve calls
the first fall.
Adam and Eve, this Adam and Eve, that I'm going.
No, it is a story of man.
Every man would have taken thatchoice.
We all do and I am going tocall it sin.
We all do sin.
And had I been back there andsomebody said, hey, you can be
(04:39):
God-like by eating this, okay, Imight want to try to take a you
know a little bite and seewhere that goes.
Uh, because we are human and wedo have that curiosity and we
always want more.
It's never enough, we want more.
Yeah, and and I understand thatperspective and going I do feel
like it's literal.
This is literally humans.
Uh, I do feel like god gave usfree will.
(05:01):
Um, I think about my kids andyou know this example has been
used before, which you, if mykids are forced to love me, is
it going to feel the same for me?
No, they have the free will tolove me.
That means a whole lot more.
God knows that he doesn't wantto force us to be robots.
No, he wants to feel that love,the way he loves us, which is
free will and freely so he gavethat to Adam and Eve and they
(05:25):
did what every one of us wouldhave done.
Jason Holloway (05:26):
They were definitely free, and we continue
to do it every day Like this isone of the stories that that
you know.
I've heard somebody say beforethat when you read the Bible,
don't read it as what happened.
Read it as what is happeningnow.
And I love this idea that it'snot about Adam and Eve or, again
, even in the Hebrew, it's notabout human and the breath of
life, and the human breath oflife being one in which did eat
(05:49):
from the tree, but it's one thatcontinues to eat from the tree.
We are Adam and Eve all thetime.
How many of us have not been inour lives and feeling very
comfortable and very satisfied?
And then some little likesomething wriggles in the back
of our brain.
I'm like like what if I didthat, or what would this be like
?
Like we're eating of the treeall the time.
It's just we're, we're satingour curiosity, which often leads
(06:11):
us to the worst parts of ourlives.
But this is the story, right,but or right?
Javi Marquez (06:18):
and wrong, if I could say.
I think in the story here theserpent went to the eve and kind
of brought that curiosity of it.
It wasn't really them exploringto see the tree and wanted to
try to get the apple.
Is that right In the sense ofshe didn't, they didn't think of
exploring out and tastinganything from that tree or or
trying anything from that treeuntil the serpent kind of came
(06:38):
in and gave them that curiosity?
Jason Holloway (06:40):
Well, to me, again, that's that.
That's, that's why the originof the devil story, the origin
of Satan's story, is the serpent.
Like we are guided by littleweird thoughts in our head that
tell us to pay attention to thisthing over there, and that's
what happened there.
David Shapiro (06:52):
And I think that what you said earlier, Jason,
about you know that there isgoing to be a feeling, a
downfall, after that feeling.
Even today, when we dosomething sinful, how we have
some sort of feeling, some sortof downfall.
At that point what happens isinstantly what do they do?
They clothe themselves, theystart to feel something where
they have to clothe themselvesand what that feeling is is
(07:14):
shame, Shame.
And that's the first time thatshame enters this world.
It did not exist beforehand.
Right, they were naked, livingwith God.
All of a sudden, there's thedownfall and they feel shameful
and they cover themselves up.
And I think that that's a partwhere you start to look at how
we are today.
You look around social media,you look around TV, you look at
(07:35):
what you know our culture isdoing, and everything is about
how you look and how you presentyourself in the materialistic
world.
For sure and that's exactlywhere it entered in is that
moment you have shame thatenters the world, and some
people on social media do nothave shame.
Javi Marquez (07:50):
Very fair, yeah, very fair.
Jason Holloway (07:51):
You know I would .
I would also like to add alevel to what you just said.
You know, even again, the wordshame for me for a very long
time was a word like, well, Idon't feel shame.
Like shame, like.
Especially as a kid I was likeI don't feel shame.
Look, you just said the socialmedia.
People don't feel shame.
But you know what the word youmight use in place of that, if
somebody's having a problem withthe word shame, would be
(08:12):
self-awareness orself-criticality, you, they,
they immediately becameself-critical.
Yes, and critical didn't haveto mean they were, you know,
they hated themselves, but itmeans that they became aware of
themselves and their own faults,right where they had not been
previously.
And I'm going to go back a halfstep and say you know, for me
the origin story of Adam and Eveis also a story of the
separation of the animal natureof animals and the human nature
(08:35):
of humans.
And we separated, we partedthose two consciousness,
consciousness, awareness.
No animal feels the need toclothe itself because it's not
self-critical.
Humans feel the need to clothethemselves because they are
self-critical.
And it's the, besides, theorigin story of human, it's the
origin story of what separateshumans from animals.
David Shapiro (08:56):
I'm going to actually fast forward.
We will get back to Genesis,but I'm going to fast forward
for a second.
When you look at Mark 14, 51,52, this is the part in the
garden when Jesus is beingarrested yeah, and all of a
sudden there is this littlesection where a boy comes onto
the stage and a guard grabs him,he takes off his garment and
(09:19):
runs off naked and there's a lotof scholarly debate over who
this kid is.
Is this Mark putting himself,as you know?
A boy running away from Jesusand running away from his
responsibilities?
But what I actually think it isand it's a beautiful moment is
when we enter sin into the world.
When Adam and Eve started sin,they felt like they had to
(09:39):
clothe themselves.
They felt that self-confidenceissue and they felt ashamed and
they said I need to clothemyself.
Well, here's a moment whereJesus is about to do everything
to undo that, to connect us backwith the Lord, to give us that
path, that covenant, and whathappens is somebody takes their
clothes off.
It's just a beautiful moment ofyou don't have to feel this
(10:00):
shame anymore.
You're part of Jesus.
Jason Holloway (10:02):
Christ, and that's the night before he's
crucified too, which makes thateven stronger right.
David Shapiro (10:05):
Absolutely so I just feel like that moment and
it's a moment where listen.
There are a lot of scholars andpastors that don't even know
that that exists in the Bible.
It's just a very quick line,but I think it ties that up so
nicely, saying you don't have tobe ashamed anymore.
You can take your clothes offagain poetically, Poetically,
right.
You can take your clothes offagain poetically, poetically,
right.
Jason Holloway (10:24):
You can take your clothes off and be less
self-critical, because, becauseGod, because Jesus is cleansing
you, jesus's death, that'scoming the next day, is going to
cleanse you of thatself-criticality, of that shame,
that we made full circle ofshame, self-criticality,
self-criticality, back to shame.
And, and it does that, andthat's what, that's what makes
the Bible so beautiful is whenyou read it in all of its layers
, you can, you can always tiethese things back together and
(10:46):
you know, the other thing too is, right after the shame portion
is there's so much to talk aboutwith the shame portion, right,
like what's the first thing thatyou know?
First of all, god says whereare you?
David Shapiro (10:55):
Which is incredible, because God knows
where they are.
He knows that they're in thegarden, he knows exactly where
they are.
I think the where are you iswhere's your head at?
Yeah, where's your heart at?
Where are you?
It's a.
It's a much deeper questionthan just where are you, javi,
what do you think of?
Jason Holloway (11:11):
when you hear that.
Javi Marquez (11:13):
Where are you?
Um, yeah, I agree, I think,when God talks and says to Adam
and Eve where are you?
What did you do?
You know, I told youspecifically not to do this
thing, not to eat from the, the,the tree of knowledge.
You did, where are you?
Why?
(11:33):
Who kind?
Of who who kind of manipulatedyou, right?
I think it's also like you didnot know that you couldn't have
done that yourself.
What's going on?
Like what poisoned your mind?
Jason Holloway (11:44):
So that's what when I hear that, that's what I
think, like where are you, isthat?
And I've got a again.
This is something that when Iwas a child and as I'm an older
adult now I have to like look atmy before and after.
And before I said, okay, well,it's just, they're away from God
and it wasn't.
There wasn't much more to it.
And the more I read into it,the more I think you know.
God knows where you are.
(12:05):
So if he's asking you, it'sjust an illusion of space.
There wasn't space before.
God was with the humans, he wastogether, he was one with them,
and to be able and to have toask it all just means it's a way
of saying you are no longerwith me, you are no longer close
to me, you are no longer tiedto me in your thinking and your
feeling, and he knew where theywere.
(12:32):
It's just that the questionitself is for the reader.
It's not.
It's not for Adam and Eve.
The question is for the readerto understand that there is a
distance now between him andthem.
And that's what sin does.
It puts a distance between youand God, and every time you
choose yourself over him, youare creating distance between
you and God, and again see whatI mean.
Like this is like.
That's not the book I read whenI was 12 or 16 or even 20.
(12:54):
Like it's, it's only a bookthat I can read now, when I look
at it this way, and so, whetherit's true or not, and I, I
won't stand here and say it'snot true.
I say I.
I also, I always say I have astruggle with the literality.
But that's not me saying Idon't think it's true, it's just
saying I struggle with it.
But I'm able to open myself upto its meaning and to its impact
(13:16):
on my life when I take two orthree steps back and look at it
from this kind of distance.
Javi Marquez (13:20):
Well, I think, even listening to the story of
Adam and Eve and the shame, andI love how God still reconciles
that, although they were cursed,in a sense, they were still
loved.
He was still with them in a way, even though he kicked them out
of the garden and he, you know,he had to do certain things
(13:41):
like saying that, you know, manwill forever, you know, sweat
from their brow and work andwomen would always labor and go
through pain, labor pains orwhatever or not labor pains, but
just go through pains, right,the labor pains, I guess.
And I love how God stillreconciles that which brings us
to Jesus.
He had a sacrifice the way hedid.
(14:01):
He had a sacrifice for himselfto reconcile our relationship
back to God.
David Shapiro (14:05):
You know, jason, it's interesting that you said
that before about yourinterpretation of where are you.
I never really thought aboutthat way, but the next lines
actually bring it really closeto what you're saying.
It's kind of hits home for me,which all of a sudden just kind
of again, you just gave me alittle bit of color into my
black and white of this story.
Um, and the next thing that Godasks literally is is you know,
(14:27):
when he's asking where they are?
And they said we were scared,so we clothed ourselves, we were
naked.
And God says who told you youwere naked?
It's again more separation.
It's not how God intended themto be.
I created you this way.
It wasn't like that in thebeginning.
Yeah, you've separated yourselffrom me, and now he's going who
even told you you were naked?
That me.
And now he's going who eventold you you were naked?
(14:47):
That's not something that Iever told you.
It's not how I created you.
So it's really.
It's cool, cause now so manydifferent thoughts are rushing
through my head by you justsaying that I've never thought
about it that way and man itjust.
I almost want to go back andjust kind of study that.
Jason Holloway (14:59):
And read the whole thing again.
I mean, that's the thing islike.
That's the beauty I found thisyear is like it only.
It only takes one little clicklike that and all of a sudden 12
other things just fall right inplace.
Then you go back and read themand it's a whole different book
again.
Even, javi, what you were justsaying.
They were cursed right and theyhad to get sent out of the
garden.
A lot of people were likethat's really wrathful and
that's terrible.
Let's be honest, take a stepback in the book.
(15:22):
He told them when they ate fromthe tree of knowledge, they
would die.
That's what he told them.
If you eat that, you will die.
Yes, he did they notimmediately, right immediately.
David Shapiro (15:34):
He actually said you know?
Javi Marquez (15:34):
what I live like 900 years right I I love you and
I really wish he hadn't madethis 900 years.
Jason Holloway (15:43):
Is that I you?
know, absolutely yes.
But he didn't kill them.
In fact, he had mercy on themand he said instead of dying, as
I told you you would, I'm goingto have mercy on you and let
you continue to live, and I'mgoing to give you chance after
chance, including yourdescendants, to try and try and
try and rectify this sin as manytimes as you can.
(16:03):
And we're humans so we couldn't.
So what happened?
Just what you said.
He brought Jesus to the worldto fix what we were unable to
fix.
Now, in the beginning, that's aharsh story.
I kick you out of Eden, allgreatness is gone to you.
You have all these negatives,but eventually he's going to
rectify it in another way.
Javi Marquez (16:19):
Yeah, I'm glad you brought it up because it's true
.
I mean, you hear it, you readand you go wow, that's a harsh
God.
I don't want to serve a Godlike that, I don't want to pray
to a God like that, I don't wantto seek a God like that, a God
like that.
But when you bring it down tothe human aspect of it, of your
daily life, if you're a parentyourself and you have kids and
they do something wrong, you'renot going to clap and go, hey,
(16:41):
that's great.
Yeah, you're probably going topunish them, you're probably
going to discipline them andyou're going to tell them what's
right and wrong.
And that's what I love about God.
He did that, but also he stillreminded us that we still have a
relationship together.
He didn't separate and go well,you go over there and I never
want to talk to you, don't everseek me.
No, I'm still with you, right,moving through the life.
(17:04):
I still want a relationshipwith you.
I'm going to send you my son toto to reconcile our
relationship, because you guysmessed it up so many years.
Jason Holloway (17:11):
Sorry, I'm going in a rant no, you're great,
you're great, but you know.
I get so passionate about thisbecause God is so loving, even
though we messed up so manytimes but he puts any, but he
gives the responsibility to you,like I'm going to be with you
but you're going to have to makeyour choices, and this is where
that whole free will thing camefrom.
And again, another thing I hada lot of problem with for a long
(17:32):
time was free will versuspredestination Right.
But when I look back at Genesis,it's right there, we have free
will.
It's right there, we had he was.
He knew we had free will.
He's going to give us mercy andgrace and love and he was going
to walk us through that process, but he wasn't going to lay the
path out and go.
This is how you fix it, youknow.
Hold on, let me.
Let me take a step back.
Javi Marquez (17:56):
What I really mean to say there is that the path
is laid out, but it's still upto us to follow it.
And then people will say like,well then he, if it wasn't free
will?
He knew it was going to happen,because he's a guy who knows
what.
Why do it right?
Why even create them?
David Shapiro (18:05):
and I feel like his reaction is exactly right
well, I also knew that my childwas going to be a baby, needing
diapers changed, keeping me upat night, causing trouble as a
teenager why would I still hadthem, and I love them, but I
think we also forget one thing.
We look at original sin and wego, hey, the sin was the aid of
(18:26):
the tree.
But there's something thathappened afterwards, because and
this is I'm sorry for husbandand wives who are listening
right now, but you might end upstarting a battle over this um,
I believe god gave them a chanceto repent and what happened is
oh so good he did.
Eve turned around and said, hey, that's the snake's fault that
made me do it, and she did nottake responsibility.
(18:47):
What did adam say?
But adam got even worse becausehe said that it was eve and it
was god, because he goes, it wasyour creation, your creation,
that caused me to sin.
So adam didn't man up no, andhow many?
Times in a relationship, do youknow, husbands and wives threw
each other under the bus insteadof take responsibility and
protect each other.
(19:07):
I think that was a secondchance they had.
So God wasn't just being crueland going hey, you messed up
once, get out when everyone goes, man, that's really a wrathful
God.
No, no, he gave them theopportunity, I believe, to
repent.
He did, and they wentcompletely opposite way.
Go, I'm going to blame you, god.
And how?
Jason Holloway (19:24):
many times do we do that.
That's so good.
That's the present tense we'retalking about too, like.
Not only do we continue tochoose to eat from the tree, but
you know the the uh not onlydoes not only does he, you know,
do we continue to do that on adaily basis.
We continue to blame others forour own problems on a regular
basis, always.
(19:44):
And well, yeah, of course.
Of course, I mean like how many, how many atheists?
How many atheists are atheistsbecause they don't like what God
did to them?
Javi Marquez (19:51):
I say that only because, even as a Christian,
people do it too.
They still, they still blameGod for certain things, stuff
like that, and I get that we.
Who else to blame?
Right Is the God of all right,and he knows everything, and he
knows everything.
Why not stop it?
And I always have to bring itup only because so many people
walk away from God because ofthose things.
(20:12):
I agree Of the control aspect.
Well, I'm leaving it up to youand you're not doing what I want
you to do.
Jason Holloway (20:18):
I'll take matters in my own hand, but at
the same time, they're nottaking the responsibility for
themselves that they had increating their own issues and
this is nothing against anybody.
Yeah it's a little harsh, butlike, but it's, it's.
It's real, though.
I mean, look, if you areprobably making choices that are
facilitating the bad thingsthat might be happening to you,
and when you are able to takeresponsibility for that and at
(20:40):
least acknowledge the fact thatmaybe you're playing a bit of a
part in your own story, uh, youknow, all of a sudden you stop
blaming God and you start goingwell, maybe God was leading me
in the right direction.
I just kept making the wrongdecision.
What just?
David Shapiro (20:51):
hit me right now is we get very upset by this
free will idea.
People go no, I want the freewill to do what I want to do.
That's a good point, but wenever give God the free will.
Javi Marquez (21:01):
We get mad when God uses free will.
David Shapiro (21:08):
Whoa, his free will, whoa.
But we're okay, man, if wedon't have free will.
Um, and I think that we look atgod and we go.
I want the genie god.
I don't want the god who hashis free will to do things.
If he does something againstwhat I think is right, all of a
sudden he's bad and wrathful.
I'm not gonna believe in him Idon't have a mic big enough drop
.
Javi Marquez (21:20):
Oh my goodness.
Yeah, that's good.
God's free will wow.
Okay, so let's.
I haven't heard that.
That's a whole differentepisode, that's a whole episode
there, god's free will.
David Shapiro (21:31):
Sorry, again, it was one of those things.
You guys said something.
It just triggered that in mybrain and I realized that you
know we're trying to controlGod's thoughts and actions.
Meanwhile, we're asking him togive us to do what we want them
to do.
Bringing it back to Adam andEve.
Javi Marquez (21:44):
And what the serpent said was if you eat from
this tree, you will be like God.
And that's exactly what it isus knowing, or think we know our
finite brains that we controlour own destiny and our own
things, but not knowing thatwe're so limited so what happens
after the shame shame part?
David Shapiro (22:04):
well, this part I'm just kind of curious about
and is is adam and eve savedbecause they sinned?
And then we know they sin againby, you know not repenting um,
and we know they get kicked outand all that.
But and their final days, whenthey pass, where do they go?
Jason Holloway (22:25):
are they saved, and doesn't Romans say something
about, you know, when Paul's inRome, doesn't he?
Isn't he talking about theresponsibilities that the that
the Jews have to themselves andthe Gentiles that they have to
themselves, and that Jesus cameto save all people?
(22:46):
And I think he even sayssomething in Romans about saving
all those who came before himas well?
David Shapiro (22:54):
so that is a school of thought?
Yes, uh, he does.
He does mention that, and theconversation is that jesus came
to pay the sins past present andfuture right so, yes, there
there is that um, but there isalso the thought that that is
the new covenant, that the oldcovenant, before he came,
wouldn't have existed, um,because they weren't following
(23:16):
that.
So all they would have beenfollowing, all their sin would
have been, is I?
I was living with god, I sinnedagainst god, and that's it.
And that's another school ofthought where, uh, there are
people who feel like adam andeve went to sheol, which is in
in judaism, it's the place ofthe dead.
It has later been debated.
Is this hell?
Is this just kind of a holdingplace?
(23:36):
But, either way, it wasn'theaven.
It wasn't that they went toheaven.
But I have a different take onit, if you don't mind.
Yeah, please, they clothethemselves.
And if they clothe themselves,I believe that was the first
sacrifice.
I believe they sacrificed ananimal to clothe themselves.
Jason Holloway (23:54):
Oh, because they would have needed the hide.
Well, it wasn't the firstsacrifice done by God to clothe
them that's what I've heard toois that it may not have been
Adam and Eve who sacrificed and.
I don't remember where thisinformation comes from maybe I
gotta do a little research andfigure it out but that God was
the one who initiated the firstsacrifice in order to make them
close.
(24:14):
So he was giving the blood ofthe animals before.
That's what I heard also.
But again, I don't have anyenough to hold no, but it is.
David Shapiro (24:20):
There is a first sacrifice right for sure.
Yes, that's fair and and that's,and that would have been, the
repentance, for that's the blood.
That was the purpose.
Uh, the other thing is they didbelieve in God.
They did pass on what happenedin the garden, including their
fall, to their children.
How do we know that?
Because this was writtenhundreds of years later by Moses
(24:43):
.
This is who would have been theauthor of Genesis.
The only way he would haveknown that is for this knowledge
to have been passed down, andpassed down, and passed down.
So you have somebody whobelieves in God, who's admitting
to their sin to their children,who told that story to their
children, who told it to theirchildren, and I believe that
that would mean you have been umrepentant of your sins and
therefore accepted into heaven.
Javi Marquez (25:04):
That's my take and I believe there also are saved
because of those things, butalso because, even though the
covenant was not, the laws werenot out, were not done yet they
weren't out yet, in that senseof until we get they hadn't
dropped yet.
Yeah, they haven't dropped untilMoses and stuff like that.
But I look at Abraham and howhe was saved in that way too,
(25:28):
even before the law.
So I think Adam and Eve, therewas whatever ways that they,
whatever ways that theyreconciled their repentance with
God, happened, and I believethey were still saved without
needing the law and Jesus Christto go through.
You know, does that make sense?
It does.
David Shapiro (25:47):
And there's actually Orthodox thought.
Orthodox thought is that whenJesus was crucified and buried,
the three days that he wasburied, he went to Sheol to free
the souls from Sheol.
That's another Orthodox thought.
I'm not saying that's corrector incorrect, I'm just saying.
Another thought is if they werenot sent to heaven at that
moment for their belief in Godand their repentance.
(26:09):
There is those that say thatthey were also released from
Sheol at the time of JesusChrist.
Regardless.
And that's kind of where youcame in, jason, when you said
you know forgiven of sins past,present, future.
That could have been thatmoment where, according to some
scholars and some differentsects of religions, that they
are released at that moment,when he went back during the
(26:31):
three days, during the threedays, um.
So there's a lot of different,but I believe it all leads to
adam and eve being in heaven.
Yeah, I believe that we will atsome point meet them, which is
a crazy thought to think thatlisten when we, when we pass
away, we might actually be ableto see.
You'll be able to spot them withfig leaves, okay there you go
(26:52):
so might be a couple fightingbecause he blamed her, and
they're the ones fighting inheaven with his head held low.
Jason Holloway (27:04):
Can we go back?
I'm curious if we can go backbecause another thing that used
to get me since we're talkingabout Adam and Eve, why don't we
talk about how they werecreated?
I mean, I think there's somereally interesting stuff in
there too.
Again, the first time I readthe Bible years and years ago,
it was like okay, that's thestory.
God made Adam out of dust orearth and Adam walked around the
(27:25):
planet trying to do some stuffand he was bored and he didn't
have a good mate, and so Godpulled a rib out of Adam and
created Eve.
On the literal sense, like okay, like it's a cool story.
Right, it's a story, it's ahistory of a story that is
supernatural and metaphysical.
But that's all I got out of thetime.
(27:46):
Do you guys get anything elseout of it besides just that?
Javi Marquez (27:51):
As I think about it more, I would think about the
man.
Adam was made from dirt andwe're like us.
We're made through human right,we're right through our mother,
or human right, the beauty ofof man being made through dirt,
what's?
How is he made right?
(28:11):
And to me it's kind of likethat's when the soul was given
you know what?
Jason Holloway (28:16):
I'm saying like there's a spirit that's when the
soul was given to the, to theground, to the earth, to the
physical to man.
Javi Marquez (28:23):
I think.
I think it's a beauty part ofus and how we're made in so many
ways, us humans, of having, youknow, physical body, but also
also so we have a spirit.
David Shapiro (28:36):
My take on.
It is also going to cause morefighting between husbands and
wives, so I apologize.
I think that one of the thingsthey talk about specifically is
why the rib?
And people say, ok, it's theribs, so that way the woman is
alongside man.
But it very specifically in theBible says helper, helper of
man.
And that is something where youknow, men who have a lot of
(28:57):
machismo say, well, the womenare supposed to be here to be my
helper.
And women say, no, I'm here tobe your equal.
But when I look at the wordhelper, it's the same word that,
exactly the same word used whenthey talk about the Holy Spirit
, the Hebrew word as the HolySpirit being the helper.
The Hebrew word the Hebrew wordyeah as the Holy Spirit.
That's good.
So for women who are out therecheering now, your name is
(29:18):
actually equal to the HolySpirit in the Bible.
So you're not just a helper asin hey, come, plow this field,
yeah, but you're the one toactually give us counsel and
direction, right as the Holy.
Javi Marquez (29:28):
Spirit is, and, if I can say anything about that
with Adam and Eve.
That's the covenant too, right?
That's the agreement that theyhave.
He had God had with us iscultivate the land, right, I
want you to cultivate the land,I want you to take care of this,
the animals and stuff like that, and women.
I want you to give birth andkind of be a helper to man and
(29:50):
just kind of take care of this,this earth that I've given you
guys.
David Shapiro (29:54):
See, and that that's where the fighting comes
in is.
Is there, is that thought?
Of okay, man man is the onewho's responsible for taking
care of the land, taking care ofthe animals, and the woman is
there to help him, along withthat, um, and I believe that the
wording is very specific thatshe is to give counsel and
direction as an equal?
Um believe that the wording isvery specific, that she is to
give counsel, and but as anequal, as an equal right.
(30:15):
Um.
Jason Holloway (30:15):
So, women, you're allowed to tell your men
what to do according to thebible, as long as it's helpful,
absolutely um, no, but I thinkit is.
David Shapiro (30:20):
When we start looking at this creation story
again, if you take it literallyand I believe that he literally
did this I think he literallyput adam to sleep, took out one
of his ribs and made, yeah, why?
Because he's god and he can.
Um, and I think that,symbolically, what he did is
beautiful.
He took something so that way,women can be right about, right
aside him, um, that they areequal.
(30:40):
It is something that is next tohim.
His rib, it's not his head,it's not his feet, it's not
something that is greater orless than him.
Uh, so I think symbolicallyit's beautifully.
I think literally it'sbeautifully.
Yeah, uh, beautiful.
And I think that you have thisman and woman who are supposed
to now be in charge of theanimals and the fields and
(31:01):
forget about all the the fall,forget about all of their
cursing they had.
Jason Holloway (31:05):
It's just a beautiful story of man and woman
created by god, and how he didit yeah, and, and for me I'm,
I'm kind of right there with you, but with a, with a twist.
So for me it's like man kind, Iwon't even say man.
Mankind was made out of earth,right, but, and again, it's
either a story or it's anillusion to something bigger.
And to me now, as an adult, I'magain the made out of carbon
(31:28):
and nickel and you know allthese elements and all of the
things that nobody would knowabout at the time.
But it's made out of the samethings, like there's no, there's
only a limited amount of thingsthat can make everything, and
that's what happened.
So, whether it was made fromearth or made from the same
chemicals as there, there'ssomething in that.
So I think that that's true.
I think that then you get towoman being made from a part of
(31:51):
man, and the rib cage you knowyou've said before, it's the.
You know the rib cage is whatprotects your inside.
So the fact that it came fromthe rib is a way to say that
women was made to protect theman in certain ways.
But to me, I see it as, I seeit as the helper too, but I see
it as the helper of an equal,and what I think is so
fascinating about.
You know, the differencebetween male and female is that
(32:12):
they're different yet equal, andthe differences are what
strengthens both.
I think the differences that amale brings.
Javi Marquez (32:22):
It's just like any other partnership.
A hundred percent, If a goodpartnership.
If we all do the same thing,we're going to be missing one.
Jason Holloway (32:29):
A hundred percent.
Javi Marquez (32:29):
We're dropping the ball on the other side, right
one side we're going to bemissing 100.
We're not, we're just missing.
We're dropping the ball on theother side, right.
So if we're able to to uh splitthe work in a sense, you know,
we're able to um, achieve orjust right, it broadens the
capabilities, right like if.
Jason Holloway (32:41):
If the whole world would be populated by men,
it would be one very specifichomogenous thing.
If it were to be populated bywomen, it would be one specific
homogenous thing.
I I heard a Jewish rabbiactually once say that man and
woman are like two planksholding each other up in an
upside down V shape Because youcan't move one or the other.
They need each other to stand,they physically need one another
(33:04):
to be able to balance oneanother out.
Yeah, big time.
You take one out, the other onefalls.
You take the other one out, itfalls.
So it's about, it's a feelingof equality, of being different
but equal.
David Shapiro (33:15):
I'll tell you why .
I feel like literal and poeticwork hand in hand.
Again, jason, you saidsomething I didn't really think
about, but when you think aboutthe rib and what it protects, it
protects the heart, it protectsthe lungs.
Specifically, we look at lungsChava, eve's name the breath,
means breath, that's it.
And and he's literally takenfrom the rib protecting the
(33:36):
breath, um, and it's just again.
You have this poetic sound toit going hey, the rib which
protects the breath, which isher name, is what's used to
produce her.
Um.
But I also look at that asliteral, because there's only
god, there's only theall-powerful that can do
something so beautiful thatwe're talking about.
6,000 years later, we can stillbe debating and go this is the
most beautiful thing everwritten, ever created.
(33:58):
It had to have been done by acreator.
It just couldn't have been doneby happenstance.
I think it's the creator thatdid it.
It's the most incredible thingfor me and I'm going this is
both literal and poetic on alevel that I'll never understand
because I'm not God.
Jason Holloway (34:12):
And that's the thing I find I think I've said
this already on this podcast,but this is the thing that I
find to be so fascinating as Icome back to it Is that it just
has layers upon layers uponlayers upon layers and we're
probably scratching the surfaceof the surface, and it's, I mean
, only divinely inspired, only adivinely inspired creation
(34:35):
could have that much depth andprofundity to it, and I just
there's no, there's never an endto it.
Javi Marquez (34:42):
I mean it's boundless it is boundless indeed
.
Jason Holloway (34:46):
So, guys, I'm sure that we could probably talk
about this for another day ortwo easily.
We have, and we probably willagain.
But we thank you for, guys, I'msure that we could probably
talk about this for another dayor two easily.
We have, and we probably willagain, but we thank you for
tuning in.
If anybody has any addedthoughts, any added
interpretations orconsiderations or things to
throw at us, just so we can geekout over them, whether we do it
(35:07):
on the podcast or not, we'dlove to see that.
If you have questions, if youhave pushback or feedback, again
, we'd love to hear that stuff.
So go to our website,wwwtheboundlessbiblecom, send us
a message and we're going toget to it as soon as we possibly
can.
Javi Marquez (35:23):
Yes, yes, yeah, thank you guys for joining our
discussion on Adam and Eve.
Hopefully you guys learnedsomething.
If not, hopefully you guys wereentertained by our
conversations.
Just the stuff that we'rethinking in our heads.
Jason Holloway (35:37):
We've only got like 65 and three quarter books
left, so we're almost done.
Right, there we go.
Javi Marquez (35:44):
Later guys.
Jason Holloway (35:45):
Thank you, see you next time.
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