May 7, 2025 • 29 mins
The remarkable transformation of Saul the persecutor into Paul the apostle stands as one of Christianity's most powerful redemption stories. From actively hunting down and killing followers of Jesus to becoming Christianity's most influential evangelist, Paul's journey demonstrates the unfathomable depth of God's grace.
What would it feel like to sit beside someone who had killed your family and friends because of your faith, only to watch them stand and preach about that same faith? This jarring scenario frames our exploration of Paul's life—a Pharisee so dedicated to preserving Jewish tradition that he violently opposed the early Christian movement until a blinding encounter with Christ on the Damascus road changed everything.
The symbolism of Paul's temporary blindness runs deep. For three days he couldn't see, eat or drink—a period mirroring Jesus's time in the tomb and representing Paul's own spiritual death and rebirth. After years spent studying Scripture as a Pharisee, Paul suddenly found himself reinterpreting everything through a radically new lens. His unique background as both a Roman citizen and Jewish scholar positioned him perfectly to bridge worlds, explaining how Jesus fulfilled ancient prophecies while bringing this message to non-Jewish populations throughout the Mediterranean.
Though often criticized for his harsh rhetoric and strong opinions, Paul's forceful approach served a crucial purpose during Christianity's formative years. While the original disciples largely remained in Jerusalem, Paul traveled extensively, establishing churches across Asia Minor and Greece. His consistency in teaching helped create a doctrinal foundation that allowed Christianity to flourish beyond its Jewish origins. In his own words, "I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God, I am what I am."
Paul's story continues to resonate because it demolishes the notion that anyone is beyond redemption or usefulness in God's kingdom. If God could use someone with Paul's violent background to spread the gospel of peace, imagine how He might use you—with all your flaws, failures, and unique experiences. The question isn't whether you're worthy enough (none of us are), but whether you're willing to respond in obedience when called.
• Paul was a scholarly Pharisee who actively persecuted early Christians
• His encounter with God on the Damascus road left him blind for three days
• After conversion, Paul had to prove himself to the very people he had persecuted
• His background as a Roman citizen and Jewish scholar uniquely positioned him for ministry
• God used Paul's harsh experiences to forge a leader who could establish churches worldwide
• Paul's testimony gave him credibility when speaking to people of all backgrounds
• As writer of most of the New Testament, Paul helped translate Old Testament teaching into the new covenant
• Despite his past, Paul worked harder than all apostles through God's grace
• His bravery in facing imprisonment, beatings, shipwrecks and opposition models true commitment
• Paul's story reminds us to share our testimonies boldly, knowing our past mistakes can strengthen our witness
Go out and share the good news fearlessly. Be brave like Paul and remember t
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
David (00:02):
welcome to the boundless bible.
My name is david shapiro.
Hey, I'm hobby marquez and I'mjason holloway welcome back
everyone.
How's it going all good?
What's up?
I'm glad everyone's back withus.
Today we're going to be talkingabout, uh, an interesting
character today, a character bythe name of paul.
Um, and when I start with pa,with Paul, this is somebody who
(00:26):
I always looked at as he's veryharsh.
He has very strong opinions,especially on social issues.
But one of the things I look atis, let's say, you're sitting
at church right now and asyou're sitting there, this
person comes in and sits next toyou and you realize this is a
person who has killed all ofyour family and friends.
And they're sitting next to youand and how would you feel?
(00:47):
And then, all of a sudden, theyget up and they get behind the
pulpit and they start preaching.
Wow, I mean, this is, this issomething where you would look
at.
And you go I, how can I listento this person?
I absolutely despise what thisperson stands for, what you're
about to do, um, and now let merewind and tell you that this is
paul, and, and let me give yousome brief overview on Paul
before we go into today.
Yeah, please, paul was aPharisee, he was studied, yeah,
(01:10):
and he absolutely hatedfollowers of Christ.
He persecuted them, he killedthem.
He was there when they werestoning people.
He was the reason why so manypeople were killed.
By the faith of Christ Yep, thebeginning.
By the faith of Christ Yep, umthe beginning in the beginnings
of it.
Jason (01:28):
Yeah, yeah Well, the beginnings after, after, after
the, after the resurrectionafter the resurrection.
Javi (01:32):
Correct, that's a better way to say it.
Yeah, so.
David (01:34):
so this is somebody who was a Jewish scholar who wanted
to kill anybody who followedChrist, and that was his mission
.
Jason (01:45):
Yeah, kill anybody who followed christ, and that was
his mission.
Yeah, his mission was literallyto go around to find his
followers and he was very good,and he was good at it so you had
this guy who you know has thisexperience, and then, on the
road to damascus, bang.
David (01:56):
Yeah, god comes down and before we go into kind of what
happened, I look at the grace,grace of God and I'm going this
is somebody who is killing allof his believers, right, and
he's saying, yep, you're the one, you're the guy who.
I'm going to use to write mostof the New Testament to become
(02:20):
one of the biggest evangelistsever in the history of
Christianity Maybe the biggestyeah, like the history of
Christianity.
Maybe the biggest yeah, likeyou're the guy, yeah, man.
The grace of God For me to everfeel like I wasn't good enough.
Javi (02:32):
Yeah, well, for context, on that, it was a bright light
and with that he lost sight andGod didn't tell him right away
that he's going to be thiswriter for the New Testament and
all that stuff and do amazingthings that he did, but in time
he was revealed that, or in timethat it just happens to be that
(02:53):
way.
But he did say, hey, why areyou persecuting me?
Why are you going against mypeople?
Why are you killing them?
Yeah, and it's amazing that heused that guy.
David (03:04):
And I think I know why.
Well, you mentioned blindness.
Jason (03:07):
Yep, uh, he was blind for three days, three days, three
days interesting amount of dayshe was blind for his whole life.
David (03:13):
Oh, okay, I agree.
I mean, this was him restoringhis sight um, because he was
blind to jesus his whole life.
So I think this guy no, I agree.
Jason (03:24):
I mean I I think blindness has a lot of that
symbolism in the Bible, right, Ithink, most of the times that
Jesus heals a blind person, Ialso.
I found it recently, I thoughtit was interesting that he
didn't heal a blind person thesame way twice.
So, in every case he healed themdifferently, which you know.
Again, if you're speaking tolike the, the symbolism of being
(03:45):
blind, meaning you're notseeing in front of you.
Each person who's not seeingprobably doesn't see for a
different reason, and theyprobably need their own way out
of that out of that loss of youknow the lack of sight in Paul's
case.
However, he he needed, heneeded some blinding so he could
be real clear that you need toget your sight backs on.
Javi (04:04):
Yeah, yeah.
I think he needed something sodrastic like that to understand
that this is coming from God,and he had to humble him down a
little bit and he had to set himstraight.
David (04:15):
And talking about humbleness, I mean, first off, a
lot of people think that youknow, like Abraham, his name was
changed by God, that Godchanged his name from Saul to
Paul.
It's actually not true.
Paul changed his own name.
Jason (04:28):
He did, oh did he.
I didn't know that.
David (04:29):
He did.
He did Saul means prayed for.
Paul means little.
He actually changed his name tosound smaller than God, but
also it would be a more Gentilesounding name so he can go and
preach to the Gentiles.
Javi (04:44):
That's what I research on that, just to, just to help you
know, because some people willprobably say he changed his own
name and he changed his namefrom saul paul rather than, you
know, jesus and everybody else,like jesus and god, uh, you know
, changes people's names wherefor him he did change his name
to bring it down to a littlelittle saul, but also for that
reasons to like, blend in inthat sense.
David (05:06):
And and you're talking about you know, somebody who's
being knocked down humility andhumble, and so he had to knock
down his name.
He got knocked down a bunch andnow he is going to go and
preach to people he waspersecuting.
I can't even imagine what thatwould be like for him.
Jason (05:24):
Let's go back for a second, because I'm sitting here
reading as you're talking aboutit, you know.
And he gets up to the groundand even though his eyes were
open, he could see nothing.
So they took him by the handand led him into Damascus, right
.
Here's the thing he was unableto see for three days and did
not eat or drink.
So not only did he have hissight taken away, but he had his
ability to eat and drink takenaway as well, it seems and or is
(05:46):
that a, you know, reference tofasting?
Probably a reference to fasting, right.
And then it says there was adisciple in Damascus named
Ananias, and the Lord said tohim in a vision Ananias, ananias
, ananias.
Hey, I like Ananias.
Javi (05:59):
I like that.
It's like Ananias.
What's up girl?
What up Ananias?
Jason (06:02):
anonymous.
So you know, he gets told to goto meet him and to take care of
him there.
And again, this is what you'resaying about.
And I love this story too,because Ananias knows who he is
and he's now being told, justlike Jonah was told to go.
You know, preach to thesepeople in Nineveh.
Ananias has to be saying Idon't want to do that, I believe
(06:25):
so.
Javi (06:26):
Yeah, I believe that he didn't want to go over there and
do the will of God and knowingthat, he probably was scared
that Paul was going to probablyget up and start hitting him
over the head with some stonesor something, Well, listen,
that's the rest of his story aregoing to be.
David (06:42):
Who's going to trust this man?
Right, you were just killingall of my friends and family,
like I said in that church.
Who's going to sit next to him?
Who's going to say, yeah, comeover here and tell me about this
man?
What?
What a way to humble him.
And one of the things I loveabout Paul that he does is he
acts in obedience, not anagreement.
This is somebody who does notagree, and I'll tell you the
(07:04):
subtle difference betweenobedience and agreement.
If I have my kids and I'mtalking to them and I want them
to be obedient, I say, hey, godo this.
And they go and do it.
They're being obedient.
If they go, why?
And I explain it to them andthen they go do it.
They're agreeing with what I amtelling them to do, so they're
acting in agreement.
So it's not hey, go and do this.
Well, why do I have to?
(07:24):
So that way this can happen.
Okay, no, this is go do thisbecause I told you to, because I
told you to.
And then he so he's acting infull obedience going, I am
persecuting all of the jesusfollowers and now I'm being told
to do something different.
And man, I mean again, we'rebeing told now you're going to
go and actually be really niceto all of them.
(07:45):
You're going.
We're being told now you'regoing to go and actually be
really nice to all of them.
You're going to be one of them,you're going to be the prime
person.
I mean, man, you don't want totalk about humility.
I don't even know what thatwould feel like to him or to the
other people.
Javi (07:57):
Yeah, seriously, and not only that, I think it took him a
couple of years to like-.
That was one of the things thatI was going to bring up.
Jason (08:03):
Galatians.
It actually tells his storyright.
It tells the fact that he waslike, I think he says he went
off by himself into the desertor something for like three
years and then he goes to, Ithink it's Damascus where he
meets the other disciples whoare basically like nuh-uh and he
has to prove himself.
And you know, I mean it's areally cool.
(08:23):
It's a really cool story allaround.
I also think it's important tonote that, like he wrote most of
the new Testament, what 13,some, some people say 14 books.
Right, hebrews is the onethat's kind of contested, but
he's not the one who wrote hisstory in Acts.
His story of his conversionhappens in Acts, which was
written by Luke, and you know, Ithink that's an important story
.
It's not that like when youstart looking at Paul and you go
(08:45):
, oh, paul is the most of thenew Testament.
Paul is like verified by.
You know, paul's story, beforePaul has anything to say, is
verified by Luke and, and quitea few times in fact, is verified
by the disciples themselves,having met him and spent time
with him.
So that gives him that level ofcredibility back.
So it's not like he just, youknow, was this like rogue
(09:07):
follower who had these coolideas and people were like, oh,
that's cool, I'm in you know, hegot, he got, he got official,
right, he got a very nice beard,yeah, you know he was
officially welcomed and approvedby those disciples and I think
that's an important, animportant distinction.
Javi (09:30):
Yeah, those disciples, and I think that's an important, an
important distinction.
Yeah, I think it's veryimportant to know that they did
approve of him and it was thesame teachings that he was
saying that the, the peter andjames, was teaching at the time.
David (09:34):
Yep, and also listen.
You look at historically, uh,it's also important because, uh,
people who say, hey, you knowwho's this paul.
He didn't walk with jesus.
How could he possibly talk inin his his way and how could he
know these things?
He did spend time with theapostles, which did make him now
eligible to speak and becomecanon.
So that's an important thing aswell, that he spent time with
(09:55):
the apostles.
He wasn't just somebody who hadthis conversion story, but kind
of getting back to God reallyquick.
Just to touch on this subjectof the grace of God, um, I think
about some of the things I'vedone wrong in my life and I feel
unworthy for certain things.
Um, there are times where Ifeel unworthy to be somebody
who's talking to somebody elseabout God, knowing my own
(10:16):
backstory and saying you know, Iwas a Jew turned into an
atheist.
How could I possibly speakabout you know God?
Um, and then I look at Paul andI go God's grace.
It goes beyond any of myability to comprehend, but what
a blessing for all of us torealize that somebody like Paul
and, to be honest, that's why Ilove Paul so much.
Javi (10:39):
You know to me I probably would not be well received into
receiving Christ or even gettingthe word to me, if it wasn't
for Paul, for Gentiles likemyself.
I'm not Jewish, I didn't growup in a Jewish home or even know
Jewish culture.
You know so to have that to me.
Paul is a staple for a lot ofus, and how he spread the word
(11:00):
to the Gentiles.
Jason (11:01):
Yeah, and I think, look, you're talking, david.
I think what you said is soimportant.
You know, he took this wildlyunworthy person and made him the
most worthy, which is a lessonthat we all need to learn about
the nature of God.
God is not looking for perfectpeople.
God is looking for people.
In fact, a little trauma isprobably connecting you with
(11:22):
other people.
That amount of pain that you'vegone through allows you to see
what it's like for other people,to relate to those people, but
also for other people, to seethat you can overcome those
things.
And I would even take it a stepfurther and say what's the line
I always forget, the line inthe Bible that says he will use
all things for good?
Yeah, for sure, one of thosethings.
Yeah, and it's like this is oneof those perfect situations
(11:43):
where he takes all the bad thatPaul has done and turns it into
the complete opposite, which ishumility which is seeing love
for others, you know where heused to hate, he loves Right.
Where love for others.
You know where he used to hatehe loves.
Javi (11:57):
Where he used to condemn, he submits to and I think Paul
was a great, was a great that hehim picking.
Paul was perfect.
Paul was this scholarlyPharisee that knows the Old
Testament, knows the laws there,right, that's a great point.
You know he's also a Romancitizen, right, so he's able to
(12:17):
get to certain circles and getto certain places.
Being a Roman and having thiscitizenship, you know he's a
person that's going to go to alllength to persecute Right, he
did that but also spread.
He spread the gospel Totallyand he's willing to do all these
things.
We see him.
He gets shipwrecked.
He to the.
He spread it out all throughout, uh, asia minor and and going
(12:40):
into greece and all that stuff,so, and maybe even spain and him
oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jason (12:44):
I mean, look at this.
I I love the fact that he's aex-pharisee, because who of all
people could have taken the oldtestament knowledge and
prophecies and been able tospeak to them in the New
Testament language and say whatit meant?
Was this what?
David (13:04):
they said was this what it means?
Jason (13:05):
is this.
So he was able to translate allof the Old Testament into what
would become the New Testament.
What was the new covenant?
What was the new teachings ofJesus?
Javi (13:15):
And nobody else could have done that.
Yeah, and going back to what Isaid before about Paul spreading
out the gospel, which you'llprobably get to David, I think
for me, paul was there from thebeginning, when he was there
persecuting the Christians, andhe was there when he was a part
of killing Steve, one of thefirst martyrs, or the first
(13:35):
martyr, stephen, stephen,stephen, sorry, sorry.
Jason (13:37):
I was showing so first name.
Yes, what's up?
Javi (13:40):
steve um and they scattered.
It says in acts 8, 4 yeahthat's right.
Jason (13:46):
Killed him and then they scattered.
Javi (13:47):
He was there from the beginning and then on top of
that he took that after hisconversion and took it and went
further.
David (13:52):
Yeah, uh, jason, just so you know, genesis 50, 20 is as
few.
You meant evil against me, butgod meant it for good, yeah, um,
so that.
So you know, genesis 50, 20 isas few.
You meant evil against me, butGod meant it for good, um, so
that's.
You know.
That's that quote that you werelooking at, uh, but for uh,
looking at at Paul, you know,one of the things that happens
and this is this is therelationship part, because we
always look at it as hey, listen, god is telling you to do
(14:14):
something and we either do it ordon't do it, and that's it.
And if we don't do it, god'sgoing to make you do it.
And you know, moses had astutter and didn't want to do it
, and God was like no, you'redoing it and, jonah, I'm putting
you in a fish and all, but mostof the time, most of the time,
god is giving us this free havevery easily said no was
(14:35):
absolutely not.
Yeah, you know I'm blind forthree days, so what, I don't
care, I'm persecuting youabsolutely because I believe
this wholeheartedly as apharisee, that this is against
what I believe, right, um, so Ilove the fact that god has this
amazing grace that I could notpossibly understand.
But paul has this convictionafterwards, um, where I think
(14:57):
about it and I go.
You know I've talked about thisbefore.
I love God, would I be able tobe a martyr, would I be able to
be in a situation where somebodywill kill me, imprison me?
You know, I am lucky enough to,you know, grow up and live in
the United States, where that'snot a fear.
But this is somebody now whohas to go.
You want to talk about humility.
I killed you and you're, and Ididn't kill you, you wouldn't be
(15:20):
here.
I killed your entire family andfriends.
And now I have to come to youin humbleness and talk to you
about Christ, after just killingyour family for the belief in
Christ, man Paul also had toshow a whole lot of.
So now, when I look at themistake I made, with him being
this harsh, strong opinion guy,Well, he is, though let's be
clear he is, but I can give himsome reprieve and go.
(15:42):
Man, this was a really harshsituation that he was put in For
sure, that he had to agree with, and he's now balancing.
You know, this is my oldperception of the Old Testament,
but this is my new perceptionof Jesus Christ and spending
time alone with him and spendingtime with the disciples, man,
(16:03):
this is what a transformation.
Jason (16:06):
To his credit, he is a human who now has the first of
many churches to oversee, and wetalk often in this podcast
about how humans are.
So it wasn't like he walked inand was like Jesus is Lord, and
they were like, oh yeah, andthen everything was good.
No, they screwed up over andover and over and they screwed
(16:28):
up more.
And can you imagine, like welook at, like you know, 13
stories of this, but it wasn't13 stories, it was probably 130
stories, 260 stories, and so atsome point he's going to be like
all right, lay in the hammerdown, I'm going to put it to you
hard and I'm going to make sureyou get this, and so, yeah,
he's harsh, he's very harsh insome cases, and he's harsh
(16:49):
because the world has been harshon him and because he's
noticing that just tellingpeople hey guys, probably
shouldn't do that isn't working.
David (16:58):
Yeah, I tell people all the time this is my little joke,
but I always say there's areason I'm not rich.
Um, because if I was rich, youknow, I would have spent a
million dollars at McDonald'sand I'd be 900 pounds Um because
I don't have the restraint,because I've never had money
that way.
I don't have that restraint.
Um, and I say that only becauseyou know no-transcript, my
(17:30):
personality and who I am.
Who knows what would come outof my mouth towards people I
have no idea.
Jason (17:36):
I might get in trouble for this too, but I was reading
in Galatians and one of thethings that he's pretty clear on
in Galatians that surprised me.
I didn't catch this the firsttwo times around.
He is condemning uh time andPeter and some of the original
disciples in Galatians becausethey have stopped living by what
Christ lived by and startedliving by the old ways again.
(17:59):
So I say this not to negate theimportance of those disciples,
but to say that, at least fromPaul, what we know historically
of Paul having something to sayabout this.
He now feels like he's the one,and only like.
These guys who were with Christare now won't feed with Christ,
are now won't feed withGentiles, they won't eat with
Gentiles.
That's one of the things hesays they won't do, and you know
(18:19):
so.
Now he feels his divine callingeven more, which, by the way,
is consistent with his character.
Right, he was already somebodywho cared about the Jewish
writings.
Yeah, because he was a Phariseeand he did this study.
He was already a devoted personto a religion, so for him to
newly devote, to the newreligion is not out of character
at all.
(18:39):
And so you know to already feellike the weight of the world on
you, only to find out that threeof the people who literally
trained you and I think it evensays 14 years, if I'm not
mistaken it says like 14 yearslater I go back to see how
they're doing, see if I've beenteaching in the wrong way, and
they're not even following it.
So again, got to give you, knowPaul, a little bit of love
there that he's.
He's still trying to stick towhat he believed in, even though
others yeah.
Javi (18:59):
I like to think of it.
You know God used him to preachto the Gentiles and God used,
you know, james and Peter topreach to the.
You know, the Jews that wasconverting to, you know,
christianity.
David (19:18):
Well, I think we also talked about the fact that, yes,
you know harsh and, and he'sgot some opinions, but one of
the things we talked about is,you know, he's also the lesser
of two evils.
Well, what if God did notproduce somebody like a Paul and
it was just hey, you know,you're going to have the old
Testament and some peopletalking about the new Testament
and Paul writing the majority ofthe new Testament.
You know, there would have beena whole bunch of different
doctrines and things written andwho knows how it would have
turned out.
God put somebody who needed tobe this forceful, possibly in
(19:41):
there for a reason?
Javi (19:42):
Yeah, because he said.
He said take this gospel.
You know the great commissionright, go out and spread the
gospel.
You guys are not doing that.
Yeah, that's fair.
Let me get this guy, paul.
Jason (19:51):
Yeah, you guys are hanging out in Jerusalem over
here and I'm out in, you know,Greece, and in Mykonos.
I'm in Ibiza telling thesepeople how to live.
I'm talking about Paul'sconversion.
Javi (20:03):
Dude, you guys are getting persecuted.
You're trying to spread thegospel, you're trying to do your
best where you can, and Godsaid, all right, this is enough,
I got to use this guy, boom.
You know right, this is enough,I gotta use this guy, boom.
You know.
Maybe I could be totally offhere, but like to me, there is
something there to say.
He used paul at a time thatmaybe the, the original apostles
, were not doing what maybe hereally called.
(20:24):
Well, they needed somebodyharsh who's in your face, listen
.
David (20:28):
Um, you know, just kind of bring it to to a parental
figure.
You have one parent who isgoing to be the the nice loving,
I don't want to reprimand mykid's parent, right?
And you have one parent who isgoing to be the nice loving, I
don't want to reprimand my kid'sparent.
Jason (20:37):
Right right.
David (20:38):
And then you have the other parent comes in and says,
no, I want them to grow up theright way.
I'm going to be the one who'sgoing to discipline them.
Jason (20:43):
They take off the chunkler and somebody gets it.
Ooh, and you have thatdisciplinarian.
David (20:48):
So when you have that, you're like for the
disciplinarian because my kidsgrew up knowing right from wrong
versus the one who is like nowe're just.
You know, this is fine.
It's just a piece of chocolate.
You have three more?
Jason (20:59):
yeah, so I think this is exactly who who needed to be
there to spread christianityaround the world yeah, and and
he's very he is also veryconsistent in in his writings,
which I think is important,because it's not like you know,
I think there's some things thathe says that rub people the
wrong way.
(21:19):
And a lot of things that havebeen taken out of context and
you know there's a lot of thosethings with him, but I think
it's still important to notethat at least he's being
consistent and he's able to helpa church be built, a church
family be built, off of at leasta clear, consistent set of
guidelines, and there'ssomething to that as well.
David (21:38):
Yeah.
And when we say you know things, like hey, you know, paul is
saying things that you know,just tough to hear.
This is something that Ibelieve.
One of the reasons we have theBible that we have today is
because God wanted it that way.
Javi (21:52):
Yeah.
David (21:53):
And if he wanted pages to be different, if he wanted
something not to be there, hewould have arranged that to have
happened.
This is his word.
Yeah, and I think that it's.
We have what we have today fora reason.
Yeah, Agreed.
Javi (22:05):
I respect that.
I believe that.
Jason (22:07):
Yeah, I mean, look, we wouldn't have the church we have
today without him.
We wouldn't, we would have ifwe only had.
I mean, I almost want to readthrough the whole New Testament
minus Paul, just to see what itreads like, just to see what it
would have been like you knowwhat I mean.
Javi (22:23):
Yeah, well, just right now , you guys got a minute, you got
a minute, okay.
Jason (22:26):
You know, just to see what it would have been like,
but from what I, the foundationfor rules within the church, not
necessarily for how to beChrist-like, but how to run a
church.
Javi (22:38):
I have a verse for you guys.
Let me see 1 Corinthians, 15, 8through 10.
This is Paul writing to theCorinthians.
At last of all, he appeared tome also as to one abnormally
born, for I am the least of theapostles and do not even deserve
to be called an apostle becauseI persecuted the church of God.
(22:58):
But by the grace of God, I amwhat I am, and his grace to me
was not without effect.
No, I worked harder than all ofthem, yet not I, but the grace
of God that was with me.
I like the fact that Pauladmits that he is not greater,
he is lesser than the apostles.
He knows his stance of wherehe's at in the kingdom of God
(23:21):
and he's just trying to do hisbest to do what God called him
to be, and that's why I reallyrespect him for the great length
.
David (23:29):
And listen, I definitely not going to compare myself with
Paul, but much the same.
I was born Jewish.
I spent a lot of my life eitherJewish or atheist.
So when I became a Christian, Imet so many people that have
spent their entire lives atchurch 40, 50 years in church
and I had to do a lot ofstudying, to quote unquote catch
up and I felt like, well, Ineed to work harder.
(23:51):
I haven't been here for 40years, for 50 years, so I need
to work harder.
I haven't been here for 40years, for 50 years, so I need
to work harder to be able tohold my own in these
conversations.
So I do understand what you'resaying where it's hey, listen,
I'm.
I might not be this 40 year, 50year Christian.
Yeah, um, but maturity doesn'talways come with age.
Sometimes it comes with wisdomand knowledge, and and that was
(24:12):
where I was again that thatreads true to where I was in my
life.
Jason (24:16):
Yeah, I love that and the other thing yeah that's a good
one, I mean, it's reallyimportant.
He made himself feel worthy byhis devotion, and that's what we
should do as Christians, right?
Whether you're 40-year, 50-yearor brand new, we're never going
to be worthy, but the most thatwe can show that we're worthy is
by giving our all as much as wecan to try and try and catch up
(24:37):
to where we are, wherever webelieve we should be.
So the other thing that I that Ireally love about Paul, though
and I think this is not only didhe help us set the guidelines
and foundation for how to buildthe church, um, and how to
manage a church and manage thepeople of a church, but he also
he didn't do it.
One church, and I think wecan't forget that, right, I
already mentioned it could havebeen 130 or 260 or whatever, but
(25:00):
he is the reason it spread.
He is the one who you know, whoreally seems to have managed
the growth of the early churchand to make sure that it is what
we have today, and for that I'mever grateful, and I think that
that's the lesson that weshould take away.
Just as much as we're notworthy and he uses it, and God
uses unworthy people is the factthat this is what we should be
(25:21):
doing.
This is what we should be doingDiscipling to people,
evangelizing to people, tellingthem about our hurt, our
suffering, our humility and Godlove.
Javi (25:32):
You're right To be just like Paul, and I think for me,
paul was not afraid to sharethis good news, and that's what
he did, and for us, I think weshouldn't be afraid to share
this good news.
It's not ours anyway, so it'sfor us to give it away.
So just give it away.
David (25:48):
That's good.
Well, listen, the GreatCommission was to go out and
make disciples of all nations,and that's the specific part
where it's very easy for us tokind of fall into our own people
group, our own families, to go,hey, I'm talking to this person
or that person who I know, whois very similar and like-minded
as me, um, but you know, goddidn't say jesus did not come
(26:11):
down and say, hey, makedisciples of the friends or
neighbors next, to us it was goout of all people, all nations.
Um, so when we're called, it isyou know, listen, I'm going to
go and talk to everybody andevery you know anybody and
everybody about Jesus Christ andwhat he did for us, and I think
that that great commissionreally was attacked perfectly by
(26:33):
Paul.
I think, if we look at it likethat's, our mission is whether
you're going to be a missionary,whether you're going to be a
podcaster, whether you're goingto be somebody who's going to go
out there and go.
I'm just not talking to mypeople group.
Javi (26:43):
I'm going to talk to everybody about Jesus and use
what, use what God made you know, use your path, use your
testimony.
That's what I think.
Jason (26:52):
Paul had a great testimony, which is why Well, he
had a terrible testimony, butthat's why it was good.
Javi (27:03):
No, but like his, you know his divine encounter, you know,
maybe struck a chord withsomebody and he just shared that
and he shared the goodness ofGod and he shared, of course, to
repent and you know our flawednature and stuff.
So I think Paul used what hehad.
I think we all could use ourtestimony to share the gospel,
to that point.
Jason (27:15):
Think about it.
Who could possibly look at Paulafter Paul's terrible story in
conversion and say, well, no, mystory is worse than that, right
, right, think about that.
Nobody could, like he had to be.
Well, he says that too, right,like he probably does.
He's so humble, but not I wasgoing to say Paul's the most
unhumble, humble person, thoughI love it, it's fun to watch, so
.
But I mean, you know, thinkabout it.
Can you imagine him going tosomebody and them going?
(27:37):
I can't do this because of that.
And he's like you know what Iused to do, right, you know what
I mean.
Yeah, Like that that's a hugething.
Like, all of a sudden, he's onetoo easy.
What I did, like, yeah, me too,except I did it against their
god.
So come on over, you know whatI mean.
Like it's cool, like it's crazyhow that kind of thing works,
(27:58):
but like that's the kind ofthing that god does.
David (28:00):
That's beautiful and the bravery that you had to do it.
That's what I'm saying.
You know, for us, we're heretoday going you'll have some
bravery and go talk to somebodyabout it.
Jason (28:08):
Go talk to the person at publics and you're like hold on,
I don't know she might not likeit.
David (28:12):
Meanwhile, here's Paul with his story.
I'm going, man, what bravery.
Jason (28:16):
And he often says that he was beaten brutally right.
To the point where he wasmedically infirm because of the
way he was treated, and he talksabout his scars and his lashes
and his imprisonment Like theycaught again most humble,
unhumble guy, right, but hetalks about it and he tells them
like I've gone through it.
You guys better listen to me.
Javi (28:35):
Yeah, all the way to the old age of two, I think, 40, 50s
, right and well at the time,right To even to reach that age.
And I think you know he wasshipwrecked, you know he was bit
by a snake, you know he wasjailed, in jail or he was in
(28:59):
prison and just he was, he justkept going, he just found
strength within god.
That's it, yeah, you know to,to continue to move forward.
He said you know what?
I'm not done yet I'm stillalive, so I'm gonna keep.
Jason (29:06):
He actually says that in one verse.
He says I, I yearn for the, forthe to see my, my god, I yearn
to see my God.
To live is Christ, to die isgain.
Javi (29:16):
Yeah, like it was nuts right.
Jason (29:18):
So I hope that everybody listening can take a little bit
of that and try and be a littlebit more like Paul today.
Be out there talking to people.
Be out there, you know, notbeing afraid of what the
backlash is going to be, and youknow, do it because God has
been good to you.
Javi (29:32):
And just know, he got you, he got you, that's it, that's
it.
Jason (29:36):
So thanks, guys.
Appreciate your time.
This has been a lot of fun andlooking forward to the next one.
See you next time.
See you guys later.
welcome to the boundless bible.
My name is david shapiro.
Hey, I'm hobby marquez and I'mjason holloway welcome back
everyone.
How's it going all good?
What's up?
I'm glad everyone's back withus.
Today we're going to be talkingabout, uh, an interesting
character today, a character bythe name of paul.
Um, and when I start with pa,with Paul, this is somebody who
(00:26):
I always looked at as he's veryharsh.
He has very strong opinions,especially on social issues.
But one of the things I look atis, let's say, you're sitting
at church right now and asyou're sitting there, this
person comes in and sits next toyou and you realize this is a
person who has killed all ofyour family and friends.
And they're sitting next to youand and how would you feel?
(00:47):
And then, all of a sudden, theyget up and they get behind the
pulpit and they start preaching.
Wow, I mean, this is, this issomething where you would look
at.
And you go I, how can I listento this person?
I absolutely despise what thisperson stands for, what you're
about to do, um, and now let merewind and tell you that this is
paul, and, and let me give yousome brief overview on Paul
before we go into today.
Yeah, please, paul was aPharisee, he was studied, yeah,
(01:10):
and he absolutely hatedfollowers of Christ.
He persecuted them, he killedthem.
He was there when they werestoning people.
He was the reason why so manypeople were killed.
By the faith of Christ Yep, thebeginning.
By the faith of Christ Yep, umthe beginning in the beginnings
of it.
Jason (01:28):
Yeah, yeah Well, the beginnings after, after, after
the, after the resurrectionafter the resurrection.
Javi (01:32):
Correct, that's a better way to say it.
Yeah, so.
David (01:34):
so this is somebody who was a Jewish scholar who wanted
to kill anybody who followedChrist, and that was his mission
.
Jason (01:45):
Yeah, kill anybody who followed christ, and that was
his mission.
Yeah, his mission was literallyto go around to find his
followers and he was very good,and he was good at it so you had
this guy who you know has thisexperience, and then, on the
road to damascus, bang.
David (01:56):
Yeah, god comes down and before we go into kind of what
happened, I look at the grace,grace of God and I'm going this
is somebody who is killing allof his believers, right, and
he's saying, yep, you're the one, you're the guy who.
I'm going to use to write mostof the New Testament to become
(02:20):
one of the biggest evangelistsever in the history of
Christianity Maybe the biggestyeah, like the history of
Christianity.
Maybe the biggest yeah, likeyou're the guy, yeah, man.
The grace of God For me to everfeel like I wasn't good enough.
Javi (02:32):
Yeah, well, for context, on that, it was a bright light
and with that he lost sight andGod didn't tell him right away
that he's going to be thiswriter for the New Testament and
all that stuff and do amazingthings that he did, but in time
he was revealed that, or in timethat it just happens to be that
(02:53):
way.
But he did say, hey, why areyou persecuting me?
Why are you going against mypeople?
Why are you killing them?
Yeah, and it's amazing that heused that guy.
David (03:04):
And I think I know why.
Well, you mentioned blindness.
Jason (03:07):
Yep, uh, he was blind for three days, three days, three
days interesting amount of dayshe was blind for his whole life.
David (03:13):
Oh, okay, I agree.
I mean, this was him restoringhis sight um, because he was
blind to jesus his whole life.
So I think this guy no, I agree.
Jason (03:24):
I mean I I think blindness has a lot of that
symbolism in the Bible, right, Ithink, most of the times that
Jesus heals a blind person, Ialso.
I found it recently, I thoughtit was interesting that he
didn't heal a blind person thesame way twice.
So, in every case he healed themdifferently, which you know.
Again, if you're speaking tolike the, the symbolism of being
(03:45):
blind, meaning you're notseeing in front of you.
Each person who's not seeingprobably doesn't see for a
different reason, and theyprobably need their own way out
of that out of that loss of youknow the lack of sight in Paul's
case.
However, he he needed, heneeded some blinding so he could
be real clear that you need toget your sight backs on.
Javi (04:04):
Yeah, yeah.
I think he needed something sodrastic like that to understand
that this is coming from God,and he had to humble him down a
little bit and he had to set himstraight.
David (04:15):
And talking about humbleness, I mean, first off, a
lot of people think that youknow, like Abraham, his name was
changed by God, that Godchanged his name from Saul to
Paul.
It's actually not true.
Paul changed his own name.
Jason (04:28):
He did, oh did he.
I didn't know that.
David (04:29):
He did.
He did Saul means prayed for.
Paul means little.
He actually changed his name tosound smaller than God, but
also it would be a more Gentilesounding name so he can go and
preach to the Gentiles.
Javi (04:44):
That's what I research on that, just to, just to help you
know, because some people willprobably say he changed his own
name and he changed his namefrom saul paul rather than, you
know, jesus and everybody else,like jesus and god, uh, you know
, changes people's names wherefor him he did change his name
to bring it down to a littlelittle saul, but also for that
reasons to like, blend in inthat sense.
David (05:06):
And and you're talking about you know, somebody who's
being knocked down humility andhumble, and so he had to knock
down his name.
He got knocked down a bunch andnow he is going to go and
preach to people he waspersecuting.
I can't even imagine what thatwould be like for him.
Jason (05:24):
Let's go back for a second, because I'm sitting here
reading as you're talking aboutit, you know.
And he gets up to the groundand even though his eyes were
open, he could see nothing.
So they took him by the handand led him into Damascus, right
.
Here's the thing he was unableto see for three days and did
not eat or drink.
So not only did he have hissight taken away, but he had his
ability to eat and drink takenaway as well, it seems and or is
(05:46):
that a, you know, reference tofasting?
Probably a reference to fasting, right.
And then it says there was adisciple in Damascus named
Ananias, and the Lord said tohim in a vision Ananias, ananias
, ananias.
Hey, I like Ananias.
Javi (05:59):
I like that.
It's like Ananias.
What's up girl?
What up Ananias?
Jason (06:02):
anonymous.
So you know, he gets told to goto meet him and to take care of
him there.
And again, this is what you'resaying about.
And I love this story too,because Ananias knows who he is
and he's now being told, justlike Jonah was told to go.
You know, preach to thesepeople in Nineveh.
Ananias has to be saying Idon't want to do that, I believe
(06:25):
so.
Javi (06:26):
Yeah, I believe that he didn't want to go over there and
do the will of God and knowingthat, he probably was scared
that Paul was going to probablyget up and start hitting him
over the head with some stonesor something, Well, listen,
that's the rest of his story aregoing to be.
David (06:42):
Who's going to trust this man?
Right, you were just killingall of my friends and family,
like I said in that church.
Who's going to sit next to him?
Who's going to say, yeah, comeover here and tell me about this
man?
What?
What a way to humble him.
And one of the things I loveabout Paul that he does is he
acts in obedience, not anagreement.
This is somebody who does notagree, and I'll tell you the
(07:04):
subtle difference betweenobedience and agreement.
If I have my kids and I'mtalking to them and I want them
to be obedient, I say, hey, godo this.
And they go and do it.
They're being obedient.
If they go, why?
And I explain it to them andthen they go do it.
They're agreeing with what I amtelling them to do, so they're
acting in agreement.
So it's not hey, go and do this.
Well, why do I have to?
(07:24):
So that way this can happen.
Okay, no, this is go do thisbecause I told you to, because I
told you to.
And then he so he's acting infull obedience going, I am
persecuting all of the jesusfollowers and now I'm being told
to do something different.
And man, I mean again, we'rebeing told now you're going to
go and actually be really niceto all of them.
(07:45):
You're going.
We're being told now you'regoing to go and actually be
really nice to all of them.
You're going to be one of them,you're going to be the prime
person.
I mean, man, you don't want totalk about humility.
I don't even know what thatwould feel like to him or to the
other people.
Javi (07:57):
Yeah, seriously, and not only that, I think it took him a
couple of years to like-.
That was one of the things thatI was going to bring up.
Jason (08:03):
Galatians.
It actually tells his storyright.
It tells the fact that he waslike, I think he says he went
off by himself into the desertor something for like three
years and then he goes to, Ithink it's Damascus where he
meets the other disciples whoare basically like nuh-uh and he
has to prove himself.
And you know, I mean it's areally cool.
(08:23):
It's a really cool story allaround.
I also think it's important tonote that, like he wrote most of
the new Testament, what 13,some, some people say 14 books.
Right, hebrews is the onethat's kind of contested, but
he's not the one who wrote hisstory in Acts.
His story of his conversionhappens in Acts, which was
written by Luke, and you know, Ithink that's an important story
.
It's not that like when youstart looking at Paul and you go
(08:45):
, oh, paul is the most of thenew Testament.
Paul is like verified by.
You know, paul's story, beforePaul has anything to say, is
verified by Luke and, and quitea few times in fact, is verified
by the disciples themselves,having met him and spent time
with him.
So that gives him that level ofcredibility back.
So it's not like he just, youknow, was this like rogue
(09:07):
follower who had these coolideas and people were like, oh,
that's cool, I'm in you know, hegot, he got, he got official,
right, he got a very nice beard,yeah, you know he was
officially welcomed and approvedby those disciples and I think
that's an important, animportant distinction.
Javi (09:30):
Yeah, those disciples, and I think that's an important, an
important distinction.
Yeah, I think it's veryimportant to know that they did
approve of him and it was thesame teachings that he was
saying that the, the peter andjames, was teaching at the time.
David (09:34):
Yep, and also listen.
You look at historically, uh,it's also important because, uh,
people who say, hey, you knowwho's this paul.
He didn't walk with jesus.
How could he possibly talk inin his his way and how could he
know these things?
He did spend time with theapostles, which did make him now
eligible to speak and becomecanon.
So that's an important thing aswell, that he spent time with
(09:55):
the apostles.
He wasn't just somebody who hadthis conversion story, but kind
of getting back to God reallyquick.
Just to touch on this subjectof the grace of God, um, I think
about some of the things I'vedone wrong in my life and I feel
unworthy for certain things.
Um, there are times where Ifeel unworthy to be somebody
who's talking to somebody elseabout God, knowing my own
(10:16):
backstory and saying you know, Iwas a Jew turned into an
atheist.
How could I possibly speakabout you know God?
Um, and then I look at Paul andI go God's grace.
It goes beyond any of myability to comprehend, but what
a blessing for all of us torealize that somebody like Paul
and, to be honest, that's why Ilove Paul so much.
Javi (10:39):
You know to me I probably would not be well received into
receiving Christ or even gettingthe word to me, if it wasn't
for Paul, for Gentiles likemyself.
I'm not Jewish, I didn't growup in a Jewish home or even know
Jewish culture.
You know so to have that to me.
Paul is a staple for a lot ofus, and how he spread the word
(11:00):
to the Gentiles.
Jason (11:01):
Yeah, and I think, look, you're talking, david.
I think what you said is soimportant.
You know, he took this wildlyunworthy person and made him the
most worthy, which is a lessonthat we all need to learn about
the nature of God.
God is not looking for perfectpeople.
God is looking for people.
In fact, a little trauma isprobably connecting you with
(11:22):
other people.
That amount of pain that you'vegone through allows you to see
what it's like for other people,to relate to those people, but
also for other people, to seethat you can overcome those
things.
And I would even take it a stepfurther and say what's the line
I always forget, the line inthe Bible that says he will use
all things for good?
Yeah, for sure, one of thosethings.
Yeah, and it's like this is oneof those perfect situations
(11:43):
where he takes all the bad thatPaul has done and turns it into
the complete opposite, which ishumility which is seeing love
for others, you know where heused to hate, he loves Right.
Where love for others.
You know where he used to hatehe loves.
Javi (11:57):
Where he used to condemn, he submits to and I think Paul
was a great, was a great that hehim picking.
Paul was perfect.
Paul was this scholarlyPharisee that knows the Old
Testament, knows the laws there,right, that's a great point.
You know he's also a Romancitizen, right, so he's able to
(12:17):
get to certain circles and getto certain places.
Being a Roman and having thiscitizenship, you know he's a
person that's going to go to alllength to persecute Right, he
did that but also spread.
He spread the gospel Totallyand he's willing to do all these
things.
We see him.
He gets shipwrecked.
He to the.
He spread it out all throughout, uh, asia minor and and going
(12:40):
into greece and all that stuff,so, and maybe even spain and him
oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jason (12:44):
I mean, look at this.
I I love the fact that he's aex-pharisee, because who of all
people could have taken the oldtestament knowledge and
prophecies and been able tospeak to them in the New
Testament language and say whatit meant?
Was this what?
David (13:04):
they said was this what it means?
Jason (13:05):
is this.
So he was able to translate allof the Old Testament into what
would become the New Testament.
What was the new covenant?
What was the new teachings ofJesus?
Javi (13:15):
And nobody else could have done that.
Yeah, and going back to what Isaid before about Paul spreading
out the gospel, which you'llprobably get to David, I think
for me, paul was there from thebeginning, when he was there
persecuting the Christians, andhe was there when he was a part
of killing Steve, one of thefirst martyrs, or the first
(13:35):
martyr, stephen, stephen,stephen, sorry, sorry.
Jason (13:37):
I was showing so first name.
Yes, what's up?
Javi (13:40):
steve um and they scattered.
It says in acts 8, 4 yeahthat's right.
Jason (13:46):
Killed him and then they scattered.
Javi (13:47):
He was there from the beginning and then on top of
that he took that after hisconversion and took it and went
further.
David (13:52):
Yeah, uh, jason, just so you know, genesis 50, 20 is as
few.
You meant evil against me, butgod meant it for good, yeah, um,
so that.
So you know, genesis 50, 20 isas few.
You meant evil against me, butGod meant it for good, um, so
that's.
You know.
That's that quote that you werelooking at, uh, but for uh,
looking at at Paul, you know,one of the things that happens
and this is this is therelationship part, because we
always look at it as hey, listen, god is telling you to do
(14:14):
something and we either do it ordon't do it, and that's it.
And if we don't do it, god'sgoing to make you do it.
And you know, moses had astutter and didn't want to do it
, and God was like no, you'redoing it and, jonah, I'm putting
you in a fish and all, but mostof the time, most of the time,
god is giving us this free havevery easily said no was
(14:35):
absolutely not.
Yeah, you know I'm blind forthree days, so what, I don't
care, I'm persecuting youabsolutely because I believe
this wholeheartedly as apharisee, that this is against
what I believe, right, um, so Ilove the fact that god has this
amazing grace that I could notpossibly understand.
But paul has this convictionafterwards, um, where I think
(14:57):
about it and I go.
You know I've talked about thisbefore.
I love God, would I be able tobe a martyr, would I be able to
be in a situation where somebodywill kill me, imprison me?
You know, I am lucky enough to,you know, grow up and live in
the United States, where that'snot a fear.
But this is somebody now whohas to go.
You want to talk about humility.
I killed you and you're, and Ididn't kill you, you wouldn't be
(15:20):
here.
I killed your entire family andfriends.
And now I have to come to youin humbleness and talk to you
about Christ, after just killingyour family for the belief in
Christ, man Paul also had toshow a whole lot of.
So now, when I look at themistake I made, with him being
this harsh, strong opinion guy,Well, he is, though let's be
clear he is, but I can give himsome reprieve and go.
(15:42):
Man, this was a really harshsituation that he was put in For
sure, that he had to agree with, and he's now balancing.
You know, this is my oldperception of the Old Testament,
but this is my new perceptionof Jesus Christ and spending
time alone with him and spendingtime with the disciples, man,
(16:03):
this is what a transformation.
Jason (16:06):
To his credit, he is a human who now has the first of
many churches to oversee, and wetalk often in this podcast
about how humans are.
So it wasn't like he walked inand was like Jesus is Lord, and
they were like, oh yeah, andthen everything was good.
No, they screwed up over andover and over and they screwed
(16:28):
up more.
And can you imagine, like welook at, like you know, 13
stories of this, but it wasn't13 stories, it was probably 130
stories, 260 stories, and so atsome point he's going to be like
all right, lay in the hammerdown, I'm going to put it to you
hard and I'm going to make sureyou get this, and so, yeah,
he's harsh, he's very harsh insome cases, and he's harsh
(16:49):
because the world has been harshon him and because he's
noticing that just tellingpeople hey guys, probably
shouldn't do that isn't working.
David (16:58):
Yeah, I tell people all the time this is my little joke,
but I always say there's areason I'm not rich.
Um, because if I was rich, youknow, I would have spent a
million dollars at McDonald'sand I'd be 900 pounds Um because
I don't have the restraint,because I've never had money
that way.
I don't have that restraint.
Um, and I say that only becauseyou know no-transcript, my
(17:30):
personality and who I am.
Who knows what would come outof my mouth towards people I
have no idea.
Jason (17:36):
I might get in trouble for this too, but I was reading
in Galatians and one of thethings that he's pretty clear on
in Galatians that surprised me.
I didn't catch this the firsttwo times around.
He is condemning uh time andPeter and some of the original
disciples in Galatians becausethey have stopped living by what
Christ lived by and startedliving by the old ways again.
(17:59):
So I say this not to negate theimportance of those disciples,
but to say that, at least fromPaul, what we know historically
of Paul having something to sayabout this.
He now feels like he's the one,and only like.
These guys who were with Christare now won't feed with Christ,
are now won't feed withGentiles, they won't eat with
Gentiles.
That's one of the things hesays they won't do, and you know
(18:19):
so.
Now he feels his divine callingeven more, which, by the way,
is consistent with his character.
Right, he was already somebodywho cared about the Jewish
writings.
Yeah, because he was a Phariseeand he did this study.
He was already a devoted personto a religion, so for him to
newly devote, to the newreligion is not out of character
at all.
(18:39):
And so you know to already feellike the weight of the world on
you, only to find out that threeof the people who literally
trained you and I think it evensays 14 years, if I'm not
mistaken it says like 14 yearslater I go back to see how
they're doing, see if I've beenteaching in the wrong way, and
they're not even following it.
So again, got to give you, knowPaul, a little bit of love
there that he's.
He's still trying to stick towhat he believed in, even though
others yeah.
Javi (18:59):
I like to think of it.
You know God used him to preachto the Gentiles and God used,
you know, james and Peter topreach to the.
You know, the Jews that wasconverting to, you know,
christianity.
David (19:18):
Well, I think we also talked about the fact that, yes,
you know harsh and, and he'sgot some opinions, but one of
the things we talked about is,you know, he's also the lesser
of two evils.
Well, what if God did notproduce somebody like a Paul and
it was just hey, you know,you're going to have the old
Testament and some peopletalking about the new Testament
and Paul writing the majority ofthe new Testament.
You know, there would have beena whole bunch of different
doctrines and things written andwho knows how it would have
turned out.
God put somebody who needed tobe this forceful, possibly in
(19:41):
there for a reason?
Javi (19:42):
Yeah, because he said.
He said take this gospel.
You know the great commissionright, go out and spread the
gospel.
You guys are not doing that.
Yeah, that's fair.
Let me get this guy, paul.
Jason (19:51):
Yeah, you guys are hanging out in Jerusalem over
here and I'm out in, you know,Greece, and in Mykonos.
I'm in Ibiza telling thesepeople how to live.
I'm talking about Paul'sconversion.
Javi (20:03):
Dude, you guys are getting persecuted.
You're trying to spread thegospel, you're trying to do your
best where you can, and Godsaid, all right, this is enough,
I got to use this guy, boom.
You know right, this is enough,I gotta use this guy, boom.
You know.
Maybe I could be totally offhere, but like to me, there is
something there to say.
He used paul at a time thatmaybe the, the original apostles
, were not doing what maybe hereally called.
(20:24):
Well, they needed somebodyharsh who's in your face, listen
.
David (20:28):
Um, you know, just kind of bring it to to a parental
figure.
You have one parent who isgoing to be the the nice loving,
I don't want to reprimand mykid's parent, right?
And you have one parent who isgoing to be the nice loving, I
don't want to reprimand my kid'sparent.
Jason (20:37):
Right right.
David (20:38):
And then you have the other parent comes in and says,
no, I want them to grow up theright way.
I'm going to be the one who'sgoing to discipline them.
Jason (20:43):
They take off the chunkler and somebody gets it.
Ooh, and you have thatdisciplinarian.
David (20:48):
So when you have that, you're like for the
disciplinarian because my kidsgrew up knowing right from wrong
versus the one who is like nowe're just.
You know, this is fine.
It's just a piece of chocolate.
You have three more?
Jason (20:59):
yeah, so I think this is exactly who who needed to be
there to spread christianityaround the world yeah, and and
he's very he is also veryconsistent in in his writings,
which I think is important,because it's not like you know,
I think there's some things thathe says that rub people the
wrong way.
(21:19):
And a lot of things that havebeen taken out of context and
you know there's a lot of thosethings with him, but I think
it's still important to notethat at least he's being
consistent and he's able to helpa church be built, a church
family be built, off of at leasta clear, consistent set of
guidelines, and there'ssomething to that as well.
David (21:38):
Yeah.
And when we say you know things, like hey, you know, paul is
saying things that you know,just tough to hear.
This is something that Ibelieve.
One of the reasons we have theBible that we have today is
because God wanted it that way.
Javi (21:52):
Yeah.
David (21:53):
And if he wanted pages to be different, if he wanted
something not to be there, hewould have arranged that to have
happened.
This is his word.
Yeah, and I think that it's.
We have what we have today fora reason.
Yeah, Agreed.
Javi (22:05):
I respect that.
I believe that.
Jason (22:07):
Yeah, I mean, look, we wouldn't have the church we have
today without him.
We wouldn't, we would have ifwe only had.
I mean, I almost want to readthrough the whole New Testament
minus Paul, just to see what itreads like, just to see what it
would have been like you knowwhat I mean.
Javi (22:23):
Yeah, well, just right now , you guys got a minute, you got
a minute, okay.
Jason (22:26):
You know, just to see what it would have been like,
but from what I, the foundationfor rules within the church, not
necessarily for how to beChrist-like, but how to run a
church.
Javi (22:38):
I have a verse for you guys.
Let me see 1 Corinthians, 15, 8through 10.
This is Paul writing to theCorinthians.
At last of all, he appeared tome also as to one abnormally
born, for I am the least of theapostles and do not even deserve
to be called an apostle becauseI persecuted the church of God.
(22:58):
But by the grace of God, I amwhat I am, and his grace to me
was not without effect.
No, I worked harder than all ofthem, yet not I, but the grace
of God that was with me.
I like the fact that Pauladmits that he is not greater,
he is lesser than the apostles.
He knows his stance of wherehe's at in the kingdom of God
(23:21):
and he's just trying to do hisbest to do what God called him
to be, and that's why I reallyrespect him for the great length
.
David (23:29):
And listen, I definitely not going to compare myself with
Paul, but much the same.
I was born Jewish.
I spent a lot of my life eitherJewish or atheist.
So when I became a Christian, Imet so many people that have
spent their entire lives atchurch 40, 50 years in church
and I had to do a lot ofstudying, to quote unquote catch
up and I felt like, well, Ineed to work harder.
(23:51):
I haven't been here for 40years, for 50 years, so I need
to work harder.
I haven't been here for 40years, for 50 years, so I need
to work harder to be able tohold my own in these
conversations.
So I do understand what you'resaying where it's hey, listen,
I'm.
I might not be this 40 year, 50year Christian.
Yeah, um, but maturity doesn'talways come with age.
Sometimes it comes with wisdomand knowledge, and and that was
(24:12):
where I was again that thatreads true to where I was in my
life.
Jason (24:16):
Yeah, I love that and the other thing yeah that's a good
one, I mean, it's reallyimportant.
He made himself feel worthy byhis devotion, and that's what we
should do as Christians, right?
Whether you're 40-year, 50-yearor brand new, we're never going
to be worthy, but the most thatwe can show that we're worthy is
by giving our all as much as wecan to try and try and catch up
(24:37):
to where we are, wherever webelieve we should be.
So the other thing that I that Ireally love about Paul, though
and I think this is not only didhe help us set the guidelines
and foundation for how to buildthe church, um, and how to
manage a church and manage thepeople of a church, but he also
he didn't do it.
One church, and I think wecan't forget that, right, I
already mentioned it could havebeen 130 or 260 or whatever, but
(25:00):
he is the reason it spread.
He is the one who you know, whoreally seems to have managed
the growth of the early churchand to make sure that it is what
we have today, and for that I'mever grateful, and I think that
that's the lesson that weshould take away.
Just as much as we're notworthy and he uses it, and God
uses unworthy people is the factthat this is what we should be
(25:21):
doing.
This is what we should be doingDiscipling to people,
evangelizing to people, tellingthem about our hurt, our
suffering, our humility and Godlove.
Javi (25:32):
You're right To be just like Paul, and I think for me,
paul was not afraid to sharethis good news, and that's what
he did, and for us, I think weshouldn't be afraid to share
this good news.
It's not ours anyway, so it'sfor us to give it away.
So just give it away.
David (25:48):
That's good.
Well, listen, the GreatCommission was to go out and
make disciples of all nations,and that's the specific part
where it's very easy for us tokind of fall into our own people
group, our own families, to go,hey, I'm talking to this person
or that person who I know, whois very similar and like-minded
as me, um, but you know, goddidn't say jesus did not come
(26:11):
down and say, hey, makedisciples of the friends or
neighbors next, to us it was goout of all people, all nations.
Um, so when we're called, it isyou know, listen, I'm going to
go and talk to everybody andevery you know anybody and
everybody about Jesus Christ andwhat he did for us, and I think
that that great commissionreally was attacked perfectly by
(26:33):
Paul.
I think, if we look at it likethat's, our mission is whether
you're going to be a missionary,whether you're going to be a
podcaster, whether you're goingto be somebody who's going to go
out there and go.
I'm just not talking to mypeople group.
Javi (26:43):
I'm going to talk to everybody about Jesus and use
what, use what God made you know, use your path, use your
testimony.
That's what I think.
Jason (26:52):
Paul had a great testimony, which is why Well, he
had a terrible testimony, butthat's why it was good.
Javi (27:03):
No, but like his, you know his divine encounter, you know,
maybe struck a chord withsomebody and he just shared that
and he shared the goodness ofGod and he shared, of course, to
repent and you know our flawednature and stuff.
So I think Paul used what hehad.
I think we all could use ourtestimony to share the gospel,
to that point.
Jason (27:15):
Think about it.
Who could possibly look at Paulafter Paul's terrible story in
conversion and say, well, no, mystory is worse than that, right
, right, think about that.
Nobody could, like he had to be.
Well, he says that too, right,like he probably does.
He's so humble, but not I wasgoing to say Paul's the most
unhumble, humble person, thoughI love it, it's fun to watch, so
.
But I mean, you know, thinkabout it.
Can you imagine him going tosomebody and them going?
(27:37):
I can't do this because of that.
And he's like you know what Iused to do, right, you know what
I mean.
Yeah, Like that that's a hugething.
Like, all of a sudden, he's onetoo easy.
What I did, like, yeah, me too,except I did it against their
god.
So come on over, you know whatI mean.
Like it's cool, like it's crazyhow that kind of thing works,
(27:58):
but like that's the kind ofthing that god does.
David (28:00):
That's beautiful and the bravery that you had to do it.
That's what I'm saying.
You know, for us, we're heretoday going you'll have some
bravery and go talk to somebodyabout it.
Jason (28:08):
Go talk to the person at publics and you're like hold on,
I don't know she might not likeit.
David (28:12):
Meanwhile, here's Paul with his story.
I'm going, man, what bravery.
Jason (28:16):
And he often says that he was beaten brutally right.
To the point where he wasmedically infirm because of the
way he was treated, and he talksabout his scars and his lashes
and his imprisonment Like theycaught again most humble,
unhumble guy, right, but hetalks about it and he tells them
like I've gone through it.
You guys better listen to me.
Javi (28:35):
Yeah, all the way to the old age of two, I think, 40, 50s
, right and well at the time,right To even to reach that age.
And I think you know he wasshipwrecked, you know he was bit
by a snake, you know he wasjailed, in jail or he was in
(28:59):
prison and just he was, he justkept going, he just found
strength within god.
That's it, yeah, you know to,to continue to move forward.
He said you know what?
I'm not done yet I'm stillalive, so I'm gonna keep.
Jason (29:06):
He actually says that in one verse.
He says I, I yearn for the, forthe to see my, my god, I yearn
to see my God.
To live is Christ, to die isgain.
Javi (29:16):
Yeah, like it was nuts right.
Jason (29:18):
So I hope that everybody listening can take a little bit
of that and try and be a littlebit more like Paul today.
Be out there talking to people.
Be out there, you know, notbeing afraid of what the
backlash is going to be, and youknow, do it because God has
been good to you.
Javi (29:32):
And just know, he got you, he got you, that's it, that's
it.
Jason (29:36):
So thanks, guys.
Appreciate your time.
This has been a lot of fun andlooking forward to the next one.
See you next time.
See you guys later.
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