May 14, 2025 • 37 mins
Debbie Caudle, MS, LPC, NCC, is a licensed therapist with over 30 years of experience helping individuals and couples navigate complex relationship challenges. Known as the “Master Changemaker,” she blends clinical insight with biblical wisdom to guide clients through healing, communication, and personal growth. Debbie specializes in women's issues, marital and premarital counseling, and life transitions, offering virtual sessions through her practice, By Divine Design Coaching.
Debbie Caudle, MS, LPC, NCC
She is also the host of The High Ticket Woman podcast, where she explores topics at the intersection of faith, emotional health, and relational transformation.
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Debbie’s personal journey—including divorce, remarriage, and deep spiritual study—fuels her passion for helping others find clarity, connection, and the courage to change. Her approach is direct, compassionate, and rooted in the belief that lasting change is possible when we align with God’s design for our lives.
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A powerful exploration of healing, faith and mental health through the biblical story of the bleeding woman who touched Jesus's robe after 12 years of suffering. Licensed therapist Debbie Caudill joins us to unpack the profound mental and emotional dimensions of this brief but transformative encounter.
• The bleeding woman's physical condition made her socially "unclean" and isolated for 12 years
• True loneliness differs from being physically alone—one can be surrounded by people yet feel isolated
• The woman displayed extraordinary faith by breaking social norms to touch Jesus's tassel
• Jesus publicly acknowledges and validates her, calling her "daughter" and restoring her dignity
• Mental health struggles often involve feeling ostracized and losing your sense of identity
• Healing requires both faith and action—the woman didn't just pray at home but took initiative
• Suffering serves as a tool for growth and refinement when we maintain the right perspective
• Christianity and mental health therapy both acknowledge we can't control circumstances, only our responses
• Perception shapes our emotional intensity—changing our view of situations gives us power
If you're struggling with your mental health, remember it's not about how long healing takes, but about never giving up. Learn more about Debbie's work at www.debbiecaudle.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
David (00:02):
Welcome to the Boundless Bible.
My name is David Shapiro, hey,I'm Javi Marquez and I'm Jason
Holloway.
Hi guys, Excited today for ourguest, Debbie Caudill.
She is the host of the HighTicket Woman podcast.
She's a therapist that workswith individuals but who
specializes in couples, healingand connection.
She's a licensed therapist withover 30 years of experience and
(00:26):
works with couples virtually.
She is a hold no punches kindof therapist and she gets
results.
We like that.
I love that.
Welcome, Debbie.
Tell us a little bit about yourjourney and who you are.
Debbie (00:35):
Well, first of all, thanks for having me on the
podcast.
This is great.
As I was saying to you guysearlier, I've never been
interviewed by three people atall at once.
This is going to be a first forme.
I'm excited.
You know, I come from a line ofteachers and that was sort of
my path initially.
It got sidetracked the summerbetween my junior and senior
(00:56):
years of college and I read thisart therapy book and that just
intrigued me so much aboutpsychology that I went back and
I took everything I could andyou know my parents were a
little disappointed.
I think that I wasn't going tofollow, you know, in their
footsteps.
But I found my way back toteaching because so much of what
I do as a therapist is reallymore coaching.
(01:18):
I I've stepped away from sortof from this medical model of
everybody being, you know,disordered to really just
helping find solutions toeveryday problems for people in
the relationships.
Jason (01:32):
That's great.
I might need to call you afterthis episode, because I think I
need some help.
David (01:38):
That's so awesome.
So today, one of the thingsthat I felt would be really good
to jump into is we have thestory it's just called the story
of the bleeding woman, but thiscomes from Mark 5, 25 to 34, or
also Luke 8, 43 through 48.
Matthew 9 also has it.
But again, matthew has a verybrief summary of it.
(01:59):
If you really want to go indepth, mark, and Luke really has
.
Yeah, for sure, but just layingdown what's going on right now
uh, jesus is going to cavernum.
He is uh just gotten off hisboat, uh, in the sea of galilee,
and there's a crowd thatentered around him.
Yeah, and he's called to go inand help the leader of the
(02:19):
temple at that port, uh, his,his son, who's not well.
Yeah, and uh, what ends uphappening is this crowd circles
around him and this woman whohas been bleeding, they said,
for 12 years, 12 yearsnon-ending bleeding for 12 years
.
Uh, touches the hem of his robeand is healed instant.
Um, and, and I just want tokind of, before we go really
(02:40):
deep into the story, I just wantto start off with the first
part of uh, this woman, and youknow she really is going against
social norms right now becausewe know with judaism, levitical
laws say you know you're, ifyou're bleeding you're unclean
you shouldn't even be in thecrowd, not at all.
And here you have this bravery,uh, for her going in.
Let me just state reallyquickly you know mental health.
(03:04):
You have to be a fairly strongperson, or at the end of your
rope to get to that point.
Debbie, have you seen people inyour practice where they just
they're willing to do just aboutanything at this point, going
against social norms and allthat?
Debbie (03:17):
You know, especially, I think, early on in my, my
practice, my, my years of beinga therapist.
You know you are a generalist.
You know when you're learningand you're training and then
working towards your licensure,you see people of all ages, you
see all kinds of problems youand so I worked in Texas.
I worked in a I don't know ifthey have them now, but they're
(03:38):
called mental health and mentalretardation centers.
They're, you know, governmentfunded and of course that means
you're going to be dealing witha lot of low income.
You know people coming in.
And so when I think back tothose days, especially, you know
, especially in those days, yes,a lot of that people, you know,
(04:03):
when I think this woman withthe bleeding issue.
First of all, I'm reallyexcited that we're talking about
this, because how easy is it tojust sort of like gloss over
you know three scriptures, right?
This woman bleeding issue.
She touches his robe.
You know, on, we go with thestory, but it really made me
stop and think about what thatmust have been like for her.
And then the modern dayparallel, because when people
(04:26):
are dealing with mental illnessthere is such a societal stigma
we don't understand what it'slike for somebody to be mentally
ill or to struggle with somesort of serious mental health
disorder until we've walked intheir shoes.
We can be very critical, we canbe very judgmental, we can be
impatient.
You know, if you're married tosomebody with a mental illness
(04:48):
that's tough on the marriage.
Jason (04:50):
So there's so many parallels to what I think this
woman went through in biblicaltimes up as bleeding for 12
years because, like you said,sometimes you feel ostracized
from society as somebody who hasmental health, and in this case
you can really align the twothings, because she was
(05:13):
ostracized for being uncleanright, but you have to think
about what expounds from beingunclean or mentally unwell.
It comes, with being a pariah,being an outcast being without a
sense of self, or at least apositive sense of self, you
don't have a community.
The community doesn't, you know, embrace you.
(05:33):
The community pushes you out.
This woman spent 12 solid yearsalone.
Debbie (05:40):
She couldn't have a job, she couldn't have a friend, she
couldn't have a, you know shecouldn't have a job, she
couldn't have a friend, shecouldn't have a, you know a.
You couldn't worship in thetemple.
She couldn't worship well, shecouldn't participate in temple
worship.
Jason (05:49):
So that's one of my one of the biggest things I take
away.
It's not just that she losteverything which she did, and we
can't, we can't underestimatethat, but she also lost her
connection with god and herspirituality, like she was so in
the depths of the, the deepestabyss, that she was ready to do
what it took to get to what'snext yeah, and then at this time
(06:13):
, I think mark 5, 26 says shesuffered a great deal under the
care of many doctors and hasspent all she had yeah, yet
instead of getting better, shegrew worse yeah so she was just
getting worse and worse andworse.
And then you know, obviously shesaw the savior which, which we
could talk about, the symbolismin this too, right, it's like
it's really, it's really reallyclear what the bible, what, what
(06:34):
the bible is telling you aboutthis story.
Yeah, the things of man won'theal you, the things of god will
.
That's good, let's, yeah, we'll, we'll wrap back up into that,
but I mean that that's what thestory revolves around, right.
David (06:44):
What's great is Debbie.
You had mentioned before that,um, you know, when you started
your therapy practice, you wereusing kind of old methods that
people were using and and overtime you became kind of you, you
embraced more of your teachinguh side and and were able to see
things.
When you hear about them, thiswoman who had worked with other
(07:04):
doctors before, just so you knowagain, in ancient Israel what
this was, were rabbis.
These weren't ancientphysicians.
These were rabbis and what theywould do is they would concoct
different things.
If you read some of the oldmanuscripts, what they would do
is they would concoct avariation of drinks and they
would mix it with with wine andthey would say to drink it, and
(07:25):
those were ways that were goingto heal you.
So she's spending all of hermoney on things that you know
today we'd look at and consider.
Debbie (07:33):
quote unquote like voodoo magic and going, okay,
just drink this concoction.
David (07:36):
You're going to be great, and what it took was this new
method of Jesus coming and andhonestly doing the miraculous.
Coming, yeah, and and honestlydoing the miraculous.
Uh, which is it?
Jason (07:49):
really does say something about tradition versus a
thousand relationship, yeah,yeah.
David (07:52):
So let me just ask you really quick, because you know
it's.
It's very interesting to methat we kind of look at the, the
physical health, and everyonelooks at it and says it's about
the bleeding.
But really there is a mentalstruggle here and I almost go to
the show I don't know if you'veever seen it Debbie called
Alone.
There's a show where people arecamping but they're alone and
(08:12):
they stick them alone and whathappens is they're under these
horrible circumstances, maybe inthe middle of a cold wilderness
, and it's not the cold orstarvation that gets to them,
it's being alone, 100%.
It's not the cold or starvationthat gets to them, it's being
alone.
And this woman has been alonefor 12 years, 12 solid years.
So, from from your perspectiveas a therapist, what is being
(08:32):
alone?
Sometimes you're in arelationship and you feel like
you're alone.
Sometimes you're alone becauseyou choose to be alone.
Debbie (08:39):
What does that do to somebody's psyche?
Wow, what a what a powerfulquestion.
I think I think there's adifference between being alone
and being lonely.
I don't think they're the samething.
So you can be physically alone,right, but not be lonely,
because you are very muchrelying on God and and if you
(09:02):
have, if God is in your life andyou are connected to God and
you have that relationshipestablished with him, you're not
alone and you know you're notalone.
But you can feel lonely whilealone and you, as you pointed
out, you can feel lonely whilein a crowd of people.
So so they, so your alonenessdoesn't necessarily mean you are
(09:26):
lonely, and it really dependson what you're focusing on.
When you are lonely, you arefocusing on what you do not have
.
Okay, I do not have connectionwith people, I do not.
I'm isolated.
Nobody wants to talk to me,nobody wants to spend time with
me, nobody understands me orgets me, and that's only going
(09:47):
to increase your loneliness,it's only going to increase your
sense of isolation.
But when you take the focus offof what you don't have and you
put the focus on what you dohave, which is this amazing
opportunity to tap into yourrelationship with your heavenly
father, then that peace thatcomes from that, I believe,
(10:13):
takes away that loneliness.
I mean, that's definitelyhappened in my life at different
times.
I'm sure that you guys happenedin my life at different times.
I'm sure that you guys haveexperienced that too.
So, yeah, I don't describe themas being the same thing.
Jason (10:25):
Yeah, for me, a hundred percent.
I agree with that.
But that this story for me isso powerful because when you get
to the root of how lonely sheis, not just alone but truly
lonely, and then you realizethat she reached out.
But she didn't reach out.
She had been reaching out toother people, to the other
doctor, she'd been reaching outto other people, if you watch
(10:45):
Chosen, you know, even in thestory of Chosen you know she
would like go wash people'sclothes, like just because she
was trying to do something, Iguess.
But Chosen's not scripture, Iget it, but when?
But when you realize how deeplylonely she was, what was the
cure for it?
Going to Jesus, yeah, that wasit.
And you didn't.
She didn't even have to touchhim.
All she had to do was get closeenough to touch his tassel.
(11:06):
And I think we've all beenthere, we've been at this low,
deep, dark hole of a place andreached out for Jesus.
And no matter how close we got,it was enough.
Now, no matter how close we got, it was enough.
David (11:16):
Now I'll tell you something interesting Again,
going back to what she touchedand what significance that has
in symbolism.
She touched the tassel.
So in the laws God says that manshall wear four tassels on his
robe and in it will be one bluetassel, and that tassel is to
(11:37):
remind you of Levitical laws.
So this is to remind you of thelaws that God has given to
everybody.
So what you have is this womanwho is going against the law.
She's literally not followingwhat the law says by, by being
in a crowd in this unpureposition, and she is actually
(12:02):
touching the tassel that remindsthem of the law.
It's really beautiful, it's,it's this symbolic.
Hey, I'm gonna touch.
I'm gonna touch the law itselfthat I'm going against, um,
which to me, was always just anamazing thing.
Um, let me ask you somethingreally quickly, debbie um with
we, sometimes people focus onthe woman and what she does, um,
(12:22):
but just knowing she's in acrowd right now, right now,
where the crowd should not bearound her, they are now all
impure, yeah but then shetouches jesus, who knows this.
She touches the part of him, thetassel that reminds him of the
law, right, and not only does hepublicly say who touched me,
(12:43):
which he knows it was, but hecalls her out and says daughter,
daughter, yeah, by your faith,you're well.
He's pointing out to the crowdshe is unclean.
Yeah, it's an amount of lovethat you know.
One of the episodes we did,debbie, was when one of the sins
that Adam and Eve created wasthat when God asked Adam, you
(13:05):
know what'd you do?
He blamed the woman, he blamedEve.
And here Jesus could veryeasily blame the woman, and
doesn't?
He points out, actually, thefact that she is unclean.
I'm okay with it, she's healed,let's go on.
He's defending her Right.
Um, when you do your counseling, especially with couples, what
does that mean for you?
When you try to get people to,uh, support each other, not
(13:28):
blame each other, that's good.
Debbie (13:31):
Yeah, again, great question.
I am.
I am passionate about not.
Well, let me say this Women doa lot of things to screw up
their relationship.
You know, I think sometimes menare.
There's a stigma for men comingto therapy or coaching, right,
(13:53):
and I think there's even more ofa stigma of going to a female
therapist, because that femaletherapist is going to
automatically side with his wifeand it's going to, you know,
the two of them are going togang up.
So I'm really passionate aboutletting couples know right up
front look, I am not biased, Iam neutral there are things that
(14:13):
are going on between the two ofyou that are causing this.
You know, whatever yourstruggle is in your relationship
, it may not be 50 50.
But there is, there's ownershipon both sides here.
So what I do really is aboutand I always know when people
are going to be successful ornot because if they're coming to
me and they really just aretreating this as a space to
(14:36):
complain about their partner,you know the writing's on the
wall.
But if I can get both of themto start acknowledging their
part in the situation, you know,and that might involve, you
know, some sessions together,but then I get them separately.
I begin to identify things,patterns maybe that they brought
(14:58):
into the marriage, or patternswithin the marriage, and I want
to address that veryspecifically with the husband or
with the wife, and sometimes,you know, I'll hear.
In fact, I heard this recently,I don't know why you have to
talk to me so much.
He's doing this, this and this,and I say to both of them his
turn's coming, don't worry,we're focusing on you right now,
(15:21):
don't worry about him.
Or vice versa, we're focusingon you right now, don't worry
about her.
Because once they begin toshift to that inward look of
yeah, you know what, I'mresponsible for me I have to
stop blaming and I feel heard.
But I recognize that there's awhole lot more that needs to
(15:43):
happen here than just beingheard.
Then we get to, then we get tomake some progress.
I think what's so really, reallyinteresting too about this
woman with the bleeding issue isthat her, her story is, is, is
really interwoven with thatother story, right?
You know, jesus is on the wayto heal this daughter of a
prominent, respected malereligious leader.
(16:05):
So when, when jesus stops andacknowledges this woman, I mean
it's, this is not accidental,right, he is saying he is really
sort of speaking to the crowd,not just to her.
He's making a statement that'sgood, because he's healing her
not just from the bleeding, he'shealing her from the, the
(16:27):
societal stigma that has beenplaced on her, and I think
that's I think that's really keythat when she had enough
courage and faith to reach outfor help, you know, she sort of
snuck up on him, right shedidn't even expect him to turn
around.
She did.
I don't know that she evenexpected him to know that she
(16:47):
had touched his his robe.
I think she just thought I'mgonna touch his robe, I'm gonna
get healed and I can sneak backout and and everything's gonna
be fine.
But he actually stopped and heturned around.
Did he do that for her or didhe do that for everybody else?
yeah, when I think about workingwith couples like you know, men
and women.
I I want them both to hear.
(17:08):
I understand your pain, Iunderstand where you're coming
from and I need your spouse toknow that I get you I think it's
great that he answers her.
Jason (17:19):
I mean the words daughter , right, that's not a, that's a
choice use of words.
It says it's a familialrelationship, and what
relationship is closer than that?
So he's aligning himself withher in an emotionally connective
way and, like you said, he'snot just saying that to her,
(17:41):
he's saying that to the crowd.
He's saying that to say you toocould be here, and even though
you thought you couldn't, youcan Right.
David (17:48):
What also is really cool is you know, jairus is this
leader that he was going to see.
And everyone says, hey, jairusis this synagogue leader who put
his position on the linebecause at this point everybody
knew who Jesus was.
This is the person who alreadyhealed somebody on the Sabbath
in that same synagogue.
So everyone says, well, he hasall this faith.
(18:08):
But if you really look at it,this woman is showing more faith
, which is why he's spendingmore time with her.
There's a centurion thathappened before Jairus.
Okay, that said, I'm the leaderof many.
All you have to do is say theword right and you will heal.
And and jesus was like I'venever seen such faith in all the
israelites and here gyrus.
(18:29):
He could have just said jesus,you don't have to come here,
just say the words.
But he didn't.
But he needed him to come, himthere.
This woman is showing so muchmore faith in this moment,
bypassing what the leviticallaws is doing, all the things
she should be doing, just totouch his robe yeah, no, you're.
Javi (18:44):
I think you're right because I think in mark, what is
it?
Uh, luke, actually luke 8, 50.
It says to gyrus.
He goes hearing this becausegyrus said, um, she's already
dead.
Like you know, it's alreadydone.
He's like hearing this gyrus.
Uh, jesus said to jairus dodon't be afraid, just believe,
and she will be healed.
And I think there's a patternthere.
I think, going back to whatdebbie was saying, there is a
pattern between between what'shappening there and what
(19:06):
happened to the bleeding womanand going just believing in god.
He also says to to the womanlike, hey, daughter, your faith
has healed you.
You know, and I think I thinkfor us, we could learn from that
.
You know, just trusting in Godand trusting that he will be, we
will be healed, we will bebetter.
If we just trust in him, we goto him with our problems.
And I think it goes back to whatyou were saying before, david,
(19:28):
about Adam, right, and just kindof.
Just kind of admitting yourwrongs, right, right, confessing
your wrongs and saying, hey waswrong, I'm the one that did it,
not the woman, kind of thing,and and coming to god in that
and god is gonna go all right, Isee you.
That takes boldness for you todo that.
That takes bonus bleeding womento go to the crowd and come and
(19:49):
reach me and actually staythere.
When I said, when I'm askingwho touched me, you know that's,
that's also.
That's great, I think yeah.
David (19:56):
Well, what debbie also mentioned, which is is really
cool, is when she's meeting witha couple, she goes don't worry,
your time will come, I'll getto you in a minute.
Yeah, that's almost exclusivelywhat Jesus says to everybody
Don't worry about what I'm doingover here, worry about yourself
.
Yeah, we'll get there, and it'sreally cool.
Jason (20:13):
It's one of those things where people are this.
He was going to the house ofthe official to heal and he said
, no, no, you're first.
Debbie (20:20):
That's awesome.
Jason (20:21):
He put her first in that moment.
A woman, yeah, also Right Also.
Javi (20:25):
That's what I love about our faith.
I think In that ancient culturethat would have been a strange
thing.
You know, christianity facesthat dead on and go.
No, you're a daughter of theMost High.
You matter just as much asanybody else than anybody else.
David (20:35):
And here comes the next question I'm going to throw at
you, debbie, which is somepeople look at this and they go
well.
This woman is stealing, quoteunquote, a miracle versus
showing the faith and receivingthe miracle, because Jesus says
by your faith you are healed.
But some people go well, shejust touched him and stealing
(20:55):
like something came out withinme.
He felt his power come out.
Jason (20:57):
He said that didn't he, he did.
David (20:58):
So people go.
Well, she's stealing a miracle.
But relating that to mentalhealth and especially with, you
know, with people that arelooking to heal from something,
I think that you know people arealways looking for the miracle,
but would you say it is more ofthe hard work and the work that
you put into it, rather thanjust one day, hey, you wake up
and you go, I'm great, I'mfeeling good.
Debbie (21:24):
Well, I mean she, she waited 12 years, so it wasn't an
overnight miracle for her.
I mean, and you know, we, welive in a society that wants
quick fixes to everything and wedon't like hurting.
We go to the doctor, you know,if we're in pain and we want,
you know, medication to get ridof the pain.
I always say to people lookpain, god gave us pain for a
reason, yeah, and there'ssomething to be gained and
(21:44):
learned by pain, so don't runfrom it.
And you know, I think I thinkwhat I love about this story,
about her is that she hadn'tgiven up.
After 12 years, she, she, stillbelieved that there was, that
healing was possible.
And broken trust, betrayal,abandonment, childhood pain,
(22:17):
divorce, you name it right.
And maybe they've tried amultitude of self-help books or
even therapists.
They've prayed to God, they'vereached out, they've beseeched
him and they still feel unseenor un, un, un, you know, not
unheard is that a word?
(22:37):
Unheard?
Or even just unworthy, likeI've worked with a number of
people who get to this placewhere they just feel like I
don't deserve a better life, allright.
So with the, with the woman inthe bible, you know, had the
bleeding issue, her healing?
It didn't it.
(22:57):
Her healing process began longbefore she came into the crowd
right.
Her healing process began inher mind when she believed right
that she's worthy yeah.
That she was worthy enough topush through that crowd and to
touch this tassel of this rabbiwho had healed so many people
(23:20):
already.
Yeah, and that was the faiththat made Jesus stop and turn to
her and say by your faith,you've been healed.
Javi (23:28):
Yeah, that's good.
I feel like for anyone to go tomaybe one of your sessions,
right, they have to believe thatyou could help them to even
walk through the door to say yesfor this right.
It takes two.
I think I know some couplesthat when they talk about
marriage couples or marriagetherapy, one of the other don't
(23:48):
want to do it so they don'tright and you could try to force
the other one.
But it takes them to believethemselves to step forward.
Debbie (23:55):
Sometimes what I see is that one person will start and
this spouse, and the spousewho's not willing to come at all
begins to see positive changesin their spouse.
Because my focus with theperson who's in my office is
what do you need to change aboutyou that will communicate to
(24:18):
your partner that you, that youlove them, care about them and
want to be in this marriage?
So as they begin to make thosechanges, the spouse is going oh
you're, this isn't just abashing session of how terrible
I am.
I might want to actually talkto this woman.
David (24:35):
That's great.
So I forgot to mention thebeginning.
But the whole reason why wereached out to Debbie is that
the month of May is mentalhealth awareness month and it's
really important that there arepeople who right now, who are
suffering.
They are suffering withdepression, relational issues,
anxiety there's just a list ofthings that people suffer with
(24:57):
and Jesus knew them.
This is why he came down as ahuman.
He felt these things, he feltanxious, he felt sad for people
you saw him wep for his friends.
He had this feeling ofrelational issues with people.
He wanted to people be in arelationship and he also hurt
(25:18):
when they weren't.
When they focus so much on thepast, when they focus so much on
tradition and not so much onwho they are today and we see
time and time again.
He was very impressed withthose that just stepped out,
stepped out in faith and justbelieved that he could heal them
.
Let me just ask, as kind of afinal winding down Debbie, what
(25:44):
are some of the things that ifsomebody came to you say, hey,
I'm struggling, I'm strugglingwith whether it's depression,
anxiety, relationship, I'mstruggling, I'm struggling, I'm
struggling with whether it'sdepression, anxiety,
relationship, I'm struggling.
What are some?
Debbie (25:58):
of the things that you would say for them to do to
start the healing process forthem?
Javi (26:08):
Yeah, well, if they're a Christian.
Debbie (26:08):
I definitely want to know what their spiritual life
looks like and what theirconnection to God is.
But beyond that, the very firstfoundational tool that I work
with people is to help themidentify that they are not
victims of their situation andthat what really leads to them
feeling a certain way andbehaving a certain way is their
(26:29):
perception about the situation.
Way is their perception aboutthe situation.
When we can begin to change ourperception, we now have power
over ourself.
We have power over theintensity.
I mean, we can't go from angryto not angry.
You know like that, but we Ialways tell people we're going
(26:49):
to use a one to 10 scale tostart thinking about your
emotions in terms of intensity.
So if your initial intensitywas a 10, what do we need to
change about the way you'reviewing the situation that
brings that intensity down to a7 or 6 or 5?
Or six or five?
You're still feeling that, butbecause that intensity has been
(27:14):
lowered, the way you react tothe situation changes, which
means we now have a differentoutcome.
Jason (27:21):
Yeah, debbie, I'm so glad you said that, because I had
this thought this week that youknow, when trying to think of
you know, how does mental healthand Christianity fit together?
And I think they fit togetherlike perfect puzzle pieces,
right.
Like the thing about therapythat I understand is that none
of us control what happens to usin our lives.
We only control how we react toit, and a lot of therapy is
(27:45):
saying this happened to you, buthow you respond to it is going
to define your future, right?
So you have the story of youknow two twins who grows up with
an alcoholic, abusive fatherand one of them grows up to be
an abusive alcoholic father totheir children and the other one
grows up to be you know anynumber of wonderful things who
help people in those samesituations.
They came from the same action,but they reacted to it
(28:07):
differently so far.
Is that a fair generalization?
Yeah, no a hundred percent.
Debbie (28:11):
I mean therapy or coaching.
You know I use those wordsinterchangeably, although
they're slightly different, butit's not going to work if
somebody isn't already in aplace of.
You know, I have brought myselfto this place in my life and I
am unhappy and it's up to me todo something about it.
(28:34):
If they are just there to vent,I mean, I'm fairly quick to
point that out.
You know, one of the thingsthat I'm continually asking in
therapy is what do you need fromme?
I mean, that kind of stopspeople in their tracks right
away If they just want to vent.
You know, I had someone say tome once you know, debbie, if I
(28:57):
really just wanted to paysomeone to vent, I'd go pay my
tree on the backyard and saidwell, that's really.
You know to your point.
My job is to move you from thisplace of venting and being
unhappy with your situation tostepping up and going okay, what
do I need to do about that?
So yeah, absolutely.
Jason (29:13):
And so what I thought was interesting about that is the
Bible actually does the exactsame thing.
And, debbie, I'm a rebornChristian.
I was a Christian as a child.
I left the faith for 20 blah,blah, blah years a very long
time.
I'm old and I came back abouttwo years ago, and so I've been
like re-imagining this andreinventing it and
(29:34):
re-understanding it, and thething that I realized is all the
things you just said areinherent in the Bible.
They're inherent in therelationship with Jesus.
The Bible has never said you'renot going to go through things.
It's only given you a playbookby which to get through them.
It's never said you're notgoing to have dark days, that
you're not going to havedepression to get through them.
It's never said you're notgoing to have dark days, that
you're not going to havedepression, that you're not
going to feel far from God andyou're going to feel low, and
(29:55):
you know, and deeply abysmal andchaotic.
All of all of uh, you know,david's story past, his, you
know, and his downfall is aboutthat.
Job's story is about that.
But in all of them, what theyoffer you is a guide by which to
(30:16):
react to all the bad thingsthat happen in your life, so
that you then can find truthagain, so you can find goodness
again, so you can find God againand Jesus again and forgiveness
and salvation and love.
And I'm just so fascinated bythe concept that it's all been
sitting there since thebeginning of time.
We just have to look at it andpay attention and follow the
instructions.
Debbie (30:33):
Yeah, 100% for sure.
We can go on and on about that.
Undoubtedly, I think.
When I look at the Bible, I seea giant love story.
That's what I see.
I see God's love for mankindplayed out through his promises
to the patriarch, Abraham, andthen the nation of Israel, you
(30:56):
know, and rescuing them fromEgypt and bringing them out of
slavery, and establishing theselaws and making them a nation.
And then you know the period ofthe judges, where they're
turning from God, turning backto God, turning to God, turning
back from God.
And you know his old covenantand then his new covenant, and
then Jesus coming down to earthand giving his life.
(31:17):
It is a giant love story, butyou're right.
At no point does it say I'mgoing to rescue you from hard
things.
No, it says I'm going to refineyou through the hard things.
Jason (31:29):
And you're going to lose yourself.
You know, this whole storywe're talking about today is
about a woman who completelylost herself.
She lost her sense of who shewas, she lost her belonging.
She even lost her faith because, literally, the Jewish
community wouldn't allow herinto the temple, right, it
wouldn't allow her to be aroundher people.
It lost everything.
But at the end of the day, youknow, one of the things we've
(31:51):
talked about before is that atthe end of the day, we're all
children of God and no matterwhat identity you give yourself,
no matter what victimizationyou give yourself, you are a
child of God.
Your identity is secure in ourGod.
And I think this is what peoplelose through traumas of life,
through the acts that happen intheir life.
(32:11):
They lose their sense of wonderand imagination and excitement
and innocence, and it's replacedwith self-defense mechanism
after self-defense mechanismafter self-defense mechanism, to
the point where sometimes yourentire personality is just one
big self-defense mechanism.
And for me, when I got back intothe religion, or, you know,
back into following God, andrealized that my identity was in
(32:33):
God, my identity was in Jesus,my identity was was pure,
although, although I wasn't, myidentity is I was able to
realign my life around that factinstead of continuingly, you
know, castigating myself for,for who I had become and who I
didn't want to be.
And I just again, I can't.
(32:54):
I can't stress enough how muchI feel it's nothing like therapy
or counseling.
I think that's a reallyimportant part for a lot of
people to be able to unraveltheir, their own selves and and
find those ways to update andupgrade themselves.
But I just find the Bible to besuch an amazing foundation for
that.
Debbie (33:15):
Yeah, no, absolutely, and unfortunately, I think
people don't like.
They don't like to suffer,right?
So I think the challenge ishelping people to understand
God's love while you're walkingthrough a season of suffering.
You know, why doesn't god justcome down and take this pain
away from me, and why does helet you know innocent people
(33:37):
suffer or good people suffer?
I think that's a you know, andyou guys probably talk about
that in lots of other episodes,but I think that is the
conundrum that a lot of peoplestruggle with.
That affects their faith.
But, but I but I believe youknow, is it?
I think it's in James, where ittalks about count all joy,
(33:58):
suffering.
I believe suffering is such animportant tool for growth.
And so there you, there, youhave that mindset shift
Suffering is either bad orsuffering is a necessary tool
for refinement and growth.
Jason (34:13):
Yeah, you know.
Debbie (34:14):
so, debbie, as we get ready to wrap up, I wish we
didn't have to, but, if you know, if, as we get ready to wrap up
, are there any final wordsyou'd like to impart, just on
whether it's on the story orsomething else, or I think
probably, when I think aboutthis woman and I think about
what she endured over 12 yearsand the fact that she didn't
give up, I think I think thething that I want to say to
(34:35):
people is look, no, it's notabout how long it takes to find
that healing.
It's about never giving up,never stop believing that
healing is possible.
God doesn't.
Just because we reach out tohim and ask for healing, in
whatever way that looks like itdoesn't and you don't get that
answer right away, it doesn'tmean that God isn't listening.
(35:00):
So when I pray for people'shealing, I pray God, you know
what's the timing that's bestfor this person.
In the meantime, help them tolearn what they need to learn
through this process.
Person in the meantime, helpthem to learn what they need to
learn through this process.
That's what I want people toreally hear is that, in your
time, until God does heal youbecause he will in this season
(35:22):
of waiting, use that.
Use that to refine, to berefined, use that to look inward
.
Use that to improve yourrelationship with God, to turn
to him, not get discouraged.
Jason (35:42):
And turn away from him and to be bold in doing so.
You know she didn't sit at homeand say God, heal me and he'd
go.
You're healed.
She did have to go out of herway.
Debbie (35:47):
She had to do something.
Yes, she had to do something.
She had to take action.
Yeah.
Jason (35:51):
We didn't talk about it, but what would the consequences
have been had she not beenhealed and she just walked into
a crowd of people like that?
I mean, the consequences had tohave been humongous.
David (36:02):
Well, yes, At that point I mean, everybody was on their
way, you know, to shul to temple.
At that point None of themwould have been admitted, none
of them would have been admitted, none of them would have been
allowed.
I mean, jesus would not havebeen able to heal the next
person.
Every, every one of them wouldhave to live by Levitical laws.
Jason (36:16):
So I mean to your point, debbie.
You know he will heal you.
You have to be patient, but youalso have to be willing to do
the work.
You have to be willing to bebold, to stand up and to do
something that's uncomfortablein order to get that blessing.
Javi (36:34):
Yeah, you also have to trust.
Jason (36:35):
I know, joel, that's scary oh my goodness, I can't
imagine.
Can you imagine?
David (36:40):
Debbie, thank you so much for being here, thank you so
much for just sharing some timewith us and talking on.
You know, one of the stories ofthe Bible and again it's a
short, it's a very quick passage, uh, but it has so much meaning
in there and and a lot of love,showing what God truly feels
about us and calling himdaughter.
You know, calling her daughter.
It's just a, it's a huge, it'sa huge blessing to go over the
(37:01):
story with you.
So thank you, thank you.
Debbie (37:03):
Thank you for having me.
Thanks for being with us,Debbie.
Jason (37:06):
Well thanks everybody for listening.
Uh, another great episode.
Another great episode, anothergreat guest.
We're so thankful for Debbiefor spending some time with us.
We ask you to reach out on oursocials if you want to get a
hold of Debbie.
Debbie, how would they get ahold of you?
Debbie (37:20):
Oh, best way is my website, debbiecoddlecom.
My phone number's there, myemail's there, yeah.
Jason (37:26):
Fantastic, wonderful.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
We appreciate it and we'll seeyou guys next week.
Javi (37:30):
Thank, you, thank you.
Welcome to the Boundless Bible.
My name is David Shapiro, hey,I'm Javi Marquez and I'm Jason
Holloway.
Hi guys, Excited today for ourguest, Debbie Caudill.
She is the host of the HighTicket Woman podcast.
She's a therapist that workswith individuals but who
specializes in couples, healingand connection.
She's a licensed therapist withover 30 years of experience and
(00:26):
works with couples virtually.
She is a hold no punches kindof therapist and she gets
results.
We like that.
I love that.
Welcome, Debbie.
Tell us a little bit about yourjourney and who you are.
Debbie (00:35):
Well, first of all, thanks for having me on the
podcast.
This is great.
As I was saying to you guysearlier, I've never been
interviewed by three people atall at once.
This is going to be a first forme.
I'm excited.
You know, I come from a line ofteachers and that was sort of
my path initially.
It got sidetracked the summerbetween my junior and senior
(00:56):
years of college and I read thisart therapy book and that just
intrigued me so much aboutpsychology that I went back and
I took everything I could andyou know my parents were a
little disappointed.
I think that I wasn't going tofollow, you know, in their
footsteps.
But I found my way back toteaching because so much of what
I do as a therapist is reallymore coaching.
(01:18):
I I've stepped away from sortof from this medical model of
everybody being, you know,disordered to really just
helping find solutions toeveryday problems for people in
the relationships.
Jason (01:32):
That's great.
I might need to call you afterthis episode, because I think I
need some help.
David (01:38):
That's so awesome.
So today, one of the thingsthat I felt would be really good
to jump into is we have thestory it's just called the story
of the bleeding woman, but thiscomes from Mark 5, 25 to 34, or
also Luke 8, 43 through 48.
Matthew 9 also has it.
But again, matthew has a verybrief summary of it.
(01:59):
If you really want to go indepth, mark, and Luke really has
.
Yeah, for sure, but just layingdown what's going on right now
uh, jesus is going to cavernum.
He is uh just gotten off hisboat, uh, in the sea of galilee,
and there's a crowd thatentered around him.
Yeah, and he's called to go inand help the leader of the
(02:19):
temple at that port, uh, his,his son, who's not well.
Yeah, and uh, what ends uphappening is this crowd circles
around him and this woman whohas been bleeding, they said,
for 12 years, 12 yearsnon-ending bleeding for 12 years
.
Uh, touches the hem of his robeand is healed instant.
Um, and, and I just want tokind of, before we go really
(02:40):
deep into the story, I just wantto start off with the first
part of uh, this woman, and youknow she really is going against
social norms right now becausewe know with judaism, levitical
laws say you know you're, ifyou're bleeding you're unclean
you shouldn't even be in thecrowd, not at all.
And here you have this bravery,uh, for her going in.
Let me just state reallyquickly you know mental health.
(03:04):
You have to be a fairly strongperson, or at the end of your
rope to get to that point.
Debbie, have you seen people inyour practice where they just
they're willing to do just aboutanything at this point, going
against social norms and allthat?
Debbie (03:17):
You know, especially, I think, early on in my, my
practice, my, my years of beinga therapist.
You know you are a generalist.
You know when you're learningand you're training and then
working towards your licensure,you see people of all ages, you
see all kinds of problems youand so I worked in Texas.
I worked in a I don't know ifthey have them now, but they're
(03:38):
called mental health and mentalretardation centers.
They're, you know, governmentfunded and of course that means
you're going to be dealing witha lot of low income.
You know people coming in.
And so when I think back tothose days, especially, you know
, especially in those days, yes,a lot of that people, you know,
(04:03):
when I think this woman withthe bleeding issue.
First of all, I'm reallyexcited that we're talking about
this, because how easy is it tojust sort of like gloss over
you know three scriptures, right?
This woman bleeding issue.
She touches his robe.
You know, on, we go with thestory, but it really made me
stop and think about what thatmust have been like for her.
And then the modern dayparallel, because when people
(04:26):
are dealing with mental illnessthere is such a societal stigma
we don't understand what it'slike for somebody to be mentally
ill or to struggle with somesort of serious mental health
disorder until we've walked intheir shoes.
We can be very critical, we canbe very judgmental, we can be
impatient.
You know, if you're married tosomebody with a mental illness
(04:48):
that's tough on the marriage.
Jason (04:50):
So there's so many parallels to what I think this
woman went through in biblicaltimes up as bleeding for 12
years because, like you said,sometimes you feel ostracized
from society as somebody who hasmental health, and in this case
you can really align the twothings, because she was
(05:13):
ostracized for being uncleanright, but you have to think
about what expounds from beingunclean or mentally unwell.
It comes, with being a pariah,being an outcast being without a
sense of self, or at least apositive sense of self, you
don't have a community.
The community doesn't, you know, embrace you.
(05:33):
The community pushes you out.
This woman spent 12 solid yearsalone.
Debbie (05:40):
She couldn't have a job, she couldn't have a friend, she
couldn't have a, you know shecouldn't have a job, she
couldn't have a friend, shecouldn't have a, you know a.
You couldn't worship in thetemple.
She couldn't worship well, shecouldn't participate in temple
worship.
Jason (05:49):
So that's one of my one of the biggest things I take
away.
It's not just that she losteverything which she did, and we
can't, we can't underestimatethat, but she also lost her
connection with god and herspirituality, like she was so in
the depths of the, the deepestabyss, that she was ready to do
what it took to get to what'snext yeah, and then at this time
(06:13):
, I think mark 5, 26 says shesuffered a great deal under the
care of many doctors and hasspent all she had yeah, yet
instead of getting better, shegrew worse yeah so she was just
getting worse and worse andworse.
And then you know, obviously shesaw the savior which, which we
could talk about, the symbolismin this too, right, it's like
it's really, it's really reallyclear what the bible, what, what
(06:34):
the bible is telling you aboutthis story.
Yeah, the things of man won'theal you, the things of god will
.
That's good, let's, yeah, we'll, we'll wrap back up into that,
but I mean that that's what thestory revolves around, right.
David (06:44):
What's great is Debbie.
You had mentioned before that,um, you know, when you started
your therapy practice, you wereusing kind of old methods that
people were using and and overtime you became kind of you, you
embraced more of your teachinguh side and and were able to see
things.
When you hear about them, thiswoman who had worked with other
(07:04):
doctors before, just so you knowagain, in ancient Israel what
this was, were rabbis.
These weren't ancientphysicians.
These were rabbis and what theywould do is they would concoct
different things.
If you read some of the oldmanuscripts, what they would do
is they would concoct avariation of drinks and they
would mix it with with wine andthey would say to drink it, and
(07:25):
those were ways that were goingto heal you.
So she's spending all of hermoney on things that you know
today we'd look at and consider.
Debbie (07:33):
quote unquote like voodoo magic and going, okay,
just drink this concoction.
David (07:36):
You're going to be great, and what it took was this new
method of Jesus coming and andhonestly doing the miraculous.
Coming, yeah, and and honestlydoing the miraculous.
Uh, which is it?
Jason (07:49):
really does say something about tradition versus a
thousand relationship, yeah,yeah.
David (07:52):
So let me just ask you really quick, because you know
it's.
It's very interesting to methat we kind of look at the, the
physical health, and everyonelooks at it and says it's about
the bleeding.
But really there is a mentalstruggle here and I almost go to
the show I don't know if you'veever seen it Debbie called
Alone.
There's a show where people arecamping but they're alone and
(08:12):
they stick them alone and whathappens is they're under these
horrible circumstances, maybe inthe middle of a cold wilderness
, and it's not the cold orstarvation that gets to them,
it's being alone, 100%.
It's not the cold or starvationthat gets to them, it's being
alone.
And this woman has been alonefor 12 years, 12 solid years.
So, from from your perspectiveas a therapist, what is being
(08:32):
alone?
Sometimes you're in arelationship and you feel like
you're alone.
Sometimes you're alone becauseyou choose to be alone.
Debbie (08:39):
What does that do to somebody's psyche?
Wow, what a what a powerfulquestion.
I think I think there's adifference between being alone
and being lonely.
I don't think they're the samething.
So you can be physically alone,right, but not be lonely,
because you are very muchrelying on God and and if you
(09:02):
have, if God is in your life andyou are connected to God and
you have that relationshipestablished with him, you're not
alone and you know you're notalone.
But you can feel lonely whilealone and you, as you pointed
out, you can feel lonely whilein a crowd of people.
So so they, so your alonenessdoesn't necessarily mean you are
(09:26):
lonely, and it really dependson what you're focusing on.
When you are lonely, you arefocusing on what you do not have
.
Okay, I do not have connectionwith people, I do not.
I'm isolated.
Nobody wants to talk to me,nobody wants to spend time with
me, nobody understands me orgets me, and that's only going
(09:47):
to increase your loneliness,it's only going to increase your
sense of isolation.
But when you take the focus offof what you don't have and you
put the focus on what you dohave, which is this amazing
opportunity to tap into yourrelationship with your heavenly
father, then that peace thatcomes from that, I believe,
(10:13):
takes away that loneliness.
I mean, that's definitelyhappened in my life at different
times.
I'm sure that you guys happenedin my life at different times.
I'm sure that you guys haveexperienced that too.
So, yeah, I don't describe themas being the same thing.
Jason (10:25):
Yeah, for me, a hundred percent.
I agree with that.
But that this story for me isso powerful because when you get
to the root of how lonely sheis, not just alone but truly
lonely, and then you realizethat she reached out.
But she didn't reach out.
She had been reaching out toother people, to the other
doctor, she'd been reaching outto other people, if you watch
(10:45):
Chosen, you know, even in thestory of Chosen you know she
would like go wash people'sclothes, like just because she
was trying to do something, Iguess.
But Chosen's not scripture, Iget it, but when?
But when you realize how deeplylonely she was, what was the
cure for it?
Going to Jesus, yeah, that wasit.
And you didn't.
She didn't even have to touchhim.
All she had to do was get closeenough to touch his tassel.
(11:06):
And I think we've all beenthere, we've been at this low,
deep, dark hole of a place andreached out for Jesus.
And no matter how close we got,it was enough.
Now, no matter how close we got, it was enough.
David (11:16):
Now I'll tell you something interesting Again,
going back to what she touchedand what significance that has
in symbolism.
She touched the tassel.
So in the laws God says that manshall wear four tassels on his
robe and in it will be one bluetassel, and that tassel is to
(11:37):
remind you of Levitical laws.
So this is to remind you of thelaws that God has given to
everybody.
So what you have is this womanwho is going against the law.
She's literally not followingwhat the law says by, by being
in a crowd in this unpureposition, and she is actually
(12:02):
touching the tassel that remindsthem of the law.
It's really beautiful, it's,it's this symbolic.
Hey, I'm gonna touch.
I'm gonna touch the law itselfthat I'm going against, um,
which to me, was always just anamazing thing.
Um, let me ask you somethingreally quickly, debbie um with
we, sometimes people focus onthe woman and what she does, um,
(12:22):
but just knowing she's in acrowd right now, right now,
where the crowd should not bearound her, they are now all
impure, yeah but then shetouches jesus, who knows this.
She touches the part of him, thetassel that reminds him of the
law, right, and not only does hepublicly say who touched me,
(12:43):
which he knows it was, but hecalls her out and says daughter,
daughter, yeah, by your faith,you're well.
He's pointing out to the crowdshe is unclean.
Yeah, it's an amount of lovethat you know.
One of the episodes we did,debbie, was when one of the sins
that Adam and Eve created wasthat when God asked Adam, you
(13:05):
know what'd you do?
He blamed the woman, he blamedEve.
And here Jesus could veryeasily blame the woman, and
doesn't?
He points out, actually, thefact that she is unclean.
I'm okay with it, she's healed,let's go on.
He's defending her Right.
Um, when you do your counseling, especially with couples, what
does that mean for you?
When you try to get people to,uh, support each other, not
(13:28):
blame each other, that's good.
Debbie (13:31):
Yeah, again, great question.
I am.
I am passionate about not.
Well, let me say this Women doa lot of things to screw up
their relationship.
You know, I think sometimes menare.
There's a stigma for men comingto therapy or coaching, right,
(13:53):
and I think there's even more ofa stigma of going to a female
therapist, because that femaletherapist is going to
automatically side with his wifeand it's going to, you know,
the two of them are going togang up.
So I'm really passionate aboutletting couples know right up
front look, I am not biased, Iam neutral there are things that
(14:13):
are going on between the two ofyou that are causing this.
You know, whatever yourstruggle is in your relationship
, it may not be 50 50.
But there is, there's ownershipon both sides here.
So what I do really is aboutand I always know when people
are going to be successful ornot because if they're coming to
me and they really just aretreating this as a space to
(14:36):
complain about their partner,you know the writing's on the
wall.
But if I can get both of themto start acknowledging their
part in the situation, you know,and that might involve, you
know, some sessions together,but then I get them separately.
I begin to identify things,patterns maybe that they brought
(14:58):
into the marriage, or patternswithin the marriage, and I want
to address that veryspecifically with the husband or
with the wife, and sometimes,you know, I'll hear.
In fact, I heard this recently,I don't know why you have to
talk to me so much.
He's doing this, this and this,and I say to both of them his
turn's coming, don't worry,we're focusing on you right now,
(15:21):
don't worry about him.
Or vice versa, we're focusingon you right now, don't worry
about her.
Because once they begin toshift to that inward look of
yeah, you know what, I'mresponsible for me I have to
stop blaming and I feel heard.
But I recognize that there's awhole lot more that needs to
(15:43):
happen here than just beingheard.
Then we get to, then we get tomake some progress.
I think what's so really, reallyinteresting too about this
woman with the bleeding issue isthat her, her story is, is, is
really interwoven with thatother story, right?
You know, jesus is on the wayto heal this daughter of a
prominent, respected malereligious leader.
(16:05):
So when, when jesus stops andacknowledges this woman, I mean
it's, this is not accidental,right, he is saying he is really
sort of speaking to the crowd,not just to her.
He's making a statement that'sgood, because he's healing her
not just from the bleeding, he'shealing her from the, the
(16:27):
societal stigma that has beenplaced on her, and I think
that's I think that's really keythat when she had enough
courage and faith to reach outfor help, you know, she sort of
snuck up on him, right shedidn't even expect him to turn
around.
She did.
I don't know that she evenexpected him to know that she
(16:47):
had touched his his robe.
I think she just thought I'mgonna touch his robe, I'm gonna
get healed and I can sneak backout and and everything's gonna
be fine.
But he actually stopped and heturned around.
Did he do that for her or didhe do that for everybody else?
yeah, when I think about workingwith couples like you know, men
and women.
I I want them both to hear.
(17:08):
I understand your pain, Iunderstand where you're coming
from and I need your spouse toknow that I get you I think it's
great that he answers her.
Jason (17:19):
I mean the words daughter , right, that's not a, that's a
choice use of words.
It says it's a familialrelationship, and what
relationship is closer than that?
So he's aligning himself withher in an emotionally connective
way and, like you said, he'snot just saying that to her,
(17:41):
he's saying that to the crowd.
He's saying that to say you toocould be here, and even though
you thought you couldn't, youcan Right.
David (17:48):
What also is really cool is you know, jairus is this
leader that he was going to see.
And everyone says, hey, jairusis this synagogue leader who put
his position on the linebecause at this point everybody
knew who Jesus was.
This is the person who alreadyhealed somebody on the Sabbath
in that same synagogue.
So everyone says, well, he hasall this faith.
(18:08):
But if you really look at it,this woman is showing more faith
, which is why he's spendingmore time with her.
There's a centurion thathappened before Jairus.
Okay, that said, I'm the leaderof many.
All you have to do is say theword right and you will heal.
And and jesus was like I'venever seen such faith in all the
israelites and here gyrus.
(18:29):
He could have just said jesus,you don't have to come here,
just say the words.
But he didn't.
But he needed him to come, himthere.
This woman is showing so muchmore faith in this moment,
bypassing what the leviticallaws is doing, all the things
she should be doing, just totouch his robe yeah, no, you're.
Javi (18:44):
I think you're right because I think in mark, what is
it?
Uh, luke, actually luke 8, 50.
It says to gyrus.
He goes hearing this becausegyrus said, um, she's already
dead.
Like you know, it's alreadydone.
He's like hearing this gyrus.
Uh, jesus said to jairus dodon't be afraid, just believe,
and she will be healed.
And I think there's a patternthere.
I think, going back to whatdebbie was saying, there is a
pattern between between what'shappening there and what
(19:06):
happened to the bleeding womanand going just believing in god.
He also says to to the womanlike, hey, daughter, your faith
has healed you.
You know, and I think I thinkfor us, we could learn from that
.
You know, just trusting in Godand trusting that he will be, we
will be healed, we will bebetter.
If we just trust in him, we goto him with our problems.
And I think it goes back to whatyou were saying before, david,
(19:28):
about Adam, right, and just kindof.
Just kind of admitting yourwrongs, right, right, confessing
your wrongs and saying, hey waswrong, I'm the one that did it,
not the woman, kind of thing,and and coming to god in that
and god is gonna go all right, Isee you.
That takes boldness for you todo that.
That takes bonus bleeding womento go to the crowd and come and
(19:49):
reach me and actually staythere.
When I said, when I'm askingwho touched me, you know that's,
that's also.
That's great, I think yeah.
David (19:56):
Well, what debbie also mentioned, which is is really
cool, is when she's meeting witha couple, she goes don't worry,
your time will come, I'll getto you in a minute.
Yeah, that's almost exclusivelywhat Jesus says to everybody
Don't worry about what I'm doingover here, worry about yourself
.
Yeah, we'll get there, and it'sreally cool.
Jason (20:13):
It's one of those things where people are this.
He was going to the house ofthe official to heal and he said
, no, no, you're first.
Debbie (20:20):
That's awesome.
Jason (20:21):
He put her first in that moment.
A woman, yeah, also Right Also.
Javi (20:25):
That's what I love about our faith.
I think In that ancient culturethat would have been a strange
thing.
You know, christianity facesthat dead on and go.
No, you're a daughter of theMost High.
You matter just as much asanybody else than anybody else.
David (20:35):
And here comes the next question I'm going to throw at
you, debbie, which is somepeople look at this and they go
well.
This woman is stealing, quoteunquote, a miracle versus
showing the faith and receivingthe miracle, because Jesus says
by your faith you are healed.
But some people go well, shejust touched him and stealing
(20:55):
like something came out withinme.
He felt his power come out.
Jason (20:57):
He said that didn't he, he did.
David (20:58):
So people go.
Well, she's stealing a miracle.
But relating that to mentalhealth and especially with, you
know, with people that arelooking to heal from something,
I think that you know people arealways looking for the miracle,
but would you say it is more ofthe hard work and the work that
you put into it, rather thanjust one day, hey, you wake up
and you go, I'm great, I'mfeeling good.
Debbie (21:24):
Well, I mean she, she waited 12 years, so it wasn't an
overnight miracle for her.
I mean, and you know, we, welive in a society that wants
quick fixes to everything and wedon't like hurting.
We go to the doctor, you know,if we're in pain and we want,
you know, medication to get ridof the pain.
I always say to people lookpain, god gave us pain for a
reason, yeah, and there'ssomething to be gained and
(21:44):
learned by pain, so don't runfrom it.
And you know, I think I thinkwhat I love about this story,
about her is that she hadn'tgiven up.
After 12 years, she, she, stillbelieved that there was, that
healing was possible.
And broken trust, betrayal,abandonment, childhood pain,
(22:17):
divorce, you name it right.
And maybe they've tried amultitude of self-help books or
even therapists.
They've prayed to God, they'vereached out, they've beseeched
him and they still feel unseenor un, un, un, you know, not
unheard is that a word?
(22:37):
Unheard?
Or even just unworthy, likeI've worked with a number of
people who get to this placewhere they just feel like I
don't deserve a better life, allright.
So with the, with the woman inthe bible, you know, had the
bleeding issue, her healing?
It didn't it.
(22:57):
Her healing process began longbefore she came into the crowd
right.
Her healing process began inher mind when she believed right
that she's worthy yeah.
That she was worthy enough topush through that crowd and to
touch this tassel of this rabbiwho had healed so many people
(23:20):
already.
Yeah, and that was the faiththat made Jesus stop and turn to
her and say by your faith,you've been healed.
Javi (23:28):
Yeah, that's good.
I feel like for anyone to go tomaybe one of your sessions,
right, they have to believe thatyou could help them to even
walk through the door to say yesfor this right.
It takes two.
I think I know some couplesthat when they talk about
marriage couples or marriagetherapy, one of the other don't
(23:48):
want to do it so they don'tright and you could try to force
the other one.
But it takes them to believethemselves to step forward.
Debbie (23:55):
Sometimes what I see is that one person will start and
this spouse, and the spousewho's not willing to come at all
begins to see positive changesin their spouse.
Because my focus with theperson who's in my office is
what do you need to change aboutyou that will communicate to
(24:18):
your partner that you, that youlove them, care about them and
want to be in this marriage?
So as they begin to make thosechanges, the spouse is going oh
you're, this isn't just abashing session of how terrible
I am.
I might want to actually talkto this woman.
David (24:35):
That's great.
So I forgot to mention thebeginning.
But the whole reason why wereached out to Debbie is that
the month of May is mentalhealth awareness month and it's
really important that there arepeople who right now, who are
suffering.
They are suffering withdepression, relational issues,
anxiety there's just a list ofthings that people suffer with
(24:57):
and Jesus knew them.
This is why he came down as ahuman.
He felt these things, he feltanxious, he felt sad for people
you saw him wep for his friends.
He had this feeling ofrelational issues with people.
He wanted to people be in arelationship and he also hurt
(25:18):
when they weren't.
When they focus so much on thepast, when they focus so much on
tradition and not so much onwho they are today and we see
time and time again.
He was very impressed withthose that just stepped out,
stepped out in faith and justbelieved that he could heal them
.
Let me just ask, as kind of afinal winding down Debbie, what
(25:44):
are some of the things that ifsomebody came to you say, hey,
I'm struggling, I'm strugglingwith whether it's depression,
anxiety, relationship, I'mstruggling, I'm struggling, I'm
struggling with whether it'sdepression, anxiety,
relationship, I'm struggling.
What are some?
Debbie (25:58):
of the things that you would say for them to do to
start the healing process forthem?
Javi (26:08):
Yeah, well, if they're a Christian.
Debbie (26:08):
I definitely want to know what their spiritual life
looks like and what theirconnection to God is.
But beyond that, the very firstfoundational tool that I work
with people is to help themidentify that they are not
victims of their situation andthat what really leads to them
feeling a certain way andbehaving a certain way is their
(26:29):
perception about the situation.
Way is their perception aboutthe situation.
When we can begin to change ourperception, we now have power
over ourself.
We have power over theintensity.
I mean, we can't go from angryto not angry.
You know like that, but we Ialways tell people we're going
(26:49):
to use a one to 10 scale tostart thinking about your
emotions in terms of intensity.
So if your initial intensitywas a 10, what do we need to
change about the way you'reviewing the situation that
brings that intensity down to a7 or 6 or 5?
Or six or five?
You're still feeling that, butbecause that intensity has been
(27:14):
lowered, the way you react tothe situation changes, which
means we now have a differentoutcome.
Jason (27:21):
Yeah, debbie, I'm so glad you said that, because I had
this thought this week that youknow, when trying to think of
you know, how does mental healthand Christianity fit together?
And I think they fit togetherlike perfect puzzle pieces,
right.
Like the thing about therapythat I understand is that none
of us control what happens to usin our lives.
We only control how we react toit, and a lot of therapy is
(27:45):
saying this happened to you, buthow you respond to it is going
to define your future, right?
So you have the story of youknow two twins who grows up with
an alcoholic, abusive fatherand one of them grows up to be
an abusive alcoholic father totheir children and the other one
grows up to be you know anynumber of wonderful things who
help people in those samesituations.
They came from the same action,but they reacted to it
(28:07):
differently so far.
Is that a fair generalization?
Yeah, no a hundred percent.
Debbie (28:11):
I mean therapy or coaching.
You know I use those wordsinterchangeably, although
they're slightly different, butit's not going to work if
somebody isn't already in aplace of.
You know, I have brought myselfto this place in my life and I
am unhappy and it's up to me todo something about it.
(28:34):
If they are just there to vent,I mean, I'm fairly quick to
point that out.
You know, one of the thingsthat I'm continually asking in
therapy is what do you need fromme?
I mean, that kind of stopspeople in their tracks right
away If they just want to vent.
You know, I had someone say tome once you know, debbie, if I
(28:57):
really just wanted to paysomeone to vent, I'd go pay my
tree on the backyard and saidwell, that's really.
You know to your point.
My job is to move you from thisplace of venting and being
unhappy with your situation tostepping up and going okay, what
do I need to do about that?
So yeah, absolutely.
Jason (29:13):
And so what I thought was interesting about that is the
Bible actually does the exactsame thing.
And, debbie, I'm a rebornChristian.
I was a Christian as a child.
I left the faith for 20 blah,blah, blah years a very long
time.
I'm old and I came back abouttwo years ago, and so I've been
like re-imagining this andreinventing it and
(29:34):
re-understanding it, and thething that I realized is all the
things you just said areinherent in the Bible.
They're inherent in therelationship with Jesus.
The Bible has never said you'renot going to go through things.
It's only given you a playbookby which to get through them.
It's never said you're notgoing to have dark days, that
you're not going to havedepression to get through them.
It's never said you're notgoing to have dark days, that
you're not going to havedepression, that you're not
going to feel far from God andyou're going to feel low, and
(29:55):
you know, and deeply abysmal andchaotic.
All of all of uh, you know,david's story past, his, you
know, and his downfall is aboutthat.
Job's story is about that.
But in all of them, what theyoffer you is a guide by which to
(30:16):
react to all the bad thingsthat happen in your life, so
that you then can find truthagain, so you can find goodness
again, so you can find God againand Jesus again and forgiveness
and salvation and love.
And I'm just so fascinated bythe concept that it's all been
sitting there since thebeginning of time.
We just have to look at it andpay attention and follow the
instructions.
Debbie (30:33):
Yeah, 100% for sure.
We can go on and on about that.
Undoubtedly, I think.
When I look at the Bible, I seea giant love story.
That's what I see.
I see God's love for mankindplayed out through his promises
to the patriarch, Abraham, andthen the nation of Israel, you
(30:56):
know, and rescuing them fromEgypt and bringing them out of
slavery, and establishing theselaws and making them a nation.
And then you know the period ofthe judges, where they're
turning from God, turning backto God, turning to God, turning
back from God.
And you know his old covenantand then his new covenant, and
then Jesus coming down to earthand giving his life.
(31:17):
It is a giant love story, butyou're right.
At no point does it say I'mgoing to rescue you from hard
things.
No, it says I'm going to refineyou through the hard things.
Jason (31:29):
And you're going to lose yourself.
You know, this whole storywe're talking about today is
about a woman who completelylost herself.
She lost her sense of who shewas, she lost her belonging.
She even lost her faith because, literally, the Jewish
community wouldn't allow herinto the temple, right, it
wouldn't allow her to be aroundher people.
It lost everything.
But at the end of the day, youknow, one of the things we've
(31:51):
talked about before is that atthe end of the day, we're all
children of God and no matterwhat identity you give yourself,
no matter what victimizationyou give yourself, you are a
child of God.
Your identity is secure in ourGod.
And I think this is what peoplelose through traumas of life,
through the acts that happen intheir life.
(32:11):
They lose their sense of wonderand imagination and excitement
and innocence, and it's replacedwith self-defense mechanism
after self-defense mechanismafter self-defense mechanism, to
the point where sometimes yourentire personality is just one
big self-defense mechanism.
And for me, when I got back intothe religion, or, you know,
back into following God, andrealized that my identity was in
(32:33):
God, my identity was in Jesus,my identity was was pure,
although, although I wasn't, myidentity is I was able to
realign my life around that factinstead of continuingly, you
know, castigating myself for,for who I had become and who I
didn't want to be.
And I just again, I can't.
(32:54):
I can't stress enough how muchI feel it's nothing like therapy
or counseling.
I think that's a reallyimportant part for a lot of
people to be able to unraveltheir, their own selves and and
find those ways to update andupgrade themselves.
But I just find the Bible to besuch an amazing foundation for
that.
Debbie (33:15):
Yeah, no, absolutely, and unfortunately, I think
people don't like.
They don't like to suffer,right?
So I think the challenge ishelping people to understand
God's love while you're walkingthrough a season of suffering.
You know, why doesn't god justcome down and take this pain
away from me, and why does helet you know innocent people
(33:37):
suffer or good people suffer?
I think that's a you know, andyou guys probably talk about
that in lots of other episodes,but I think that is the
conundrum that a lot of peoplestruggle with.
That affects their faith.
But, but I but I believe youknow, is it?
I think it's in James, where ittalks about count all joy,
(33:58):
suffering.
I believe suffering is such animportant tool for growth.
And so there you, there, youhave that mindset shift
Suffering is either bad orsuffering is a necessary tool
for refinement and growth.
Jason (34:13):
Yeah, you know.
Debbie (34:14):
so, debbie, as we get ready to wrap up, I wish we
didn't have to, but, if you know, if, as we get ready to wrap up
, are there any final wordsyou'd like to impart, just on
whether it's on the story orsomething else, or I think
probably, when I think aboutthis woman and I think about
what she endured over 12 yearsand the fact that she didn't
give up, I think I think thething that I want to say to
(34:35):
people is look, no, it's notabout how long it takes to find
that healing.
It's about never giving up,never stop believing that
healing is possible.
God doesn't.
Just because we reach out tohim and ask for healing, in
whatever way that looks like itdoesn't and you don't get that
answer right away, it doesn'tmean that God isn't listening.
(35:00):
So when I pray for people'shealing, I pray God, you know
what's the timing that's bestfor this person.
In the meantime, help them tolearn what they need to learn
through this process.
Person in the meantime, helpthem to learn what they need to
learn through this process.
That's what I want people toreally hear is that, in your
time, until God does heal youbecause he will in this season
(35:22):
of waiting, use that.
Use that to refine, to berefined, use that to look inward
.
Use that to improve yourrelationship with God, to turn
to him, not get discouraged.
Jason (35:42):
And turn away from him and to be bold in doing so.
You know she didn't sit at homeand say God, heal me and he'd
go.
You're healed.
She did have to go out of herway.
Debbie (35:47):
She had to do something.
Yes, she had to do something.
She had to take action.
Yeah.
Jason (35:51):
We didn't talk about it, but what would the consequences
have been had she not beenhealed and she just walked into
a crowd of people like that?
I mean, the consequences had tohave been humongous.
David (36:02):
Well, yes, At that point I mean, everybody was on their
way, you know, to shul to temple.
At that point None of themwould have been admitted, none
of them would have been admitted, none of them would have been
allowed.
I mean, jesus would not havebeen able to heal the next
person.
Every, every one of them wouldhave to live by Levitical laws.
Jason (36:16):
So I mean to your point, debbie.
You know he will heal you.
You have to be patient, but youalso have to be willing to do
the work.
You have to be willing to bebold, to stand up and to do
something that's uncomfortablein order to get that blessing.
Javi (36:34):
Yeah, you also have to trust.
Jason (36:35):
I know, joel, that's scary oh my goodness, I can't
imagine.
Can you imagine?
David (36:40):
Debbie, thank you so much for being here, thank you so
much for just sharing some timewith us and talking on.
You know, one of the stories ofthe Bible and again it's a
short, it's a very quick passage, uh, but it has so much meaning
in there and and a lot of love,showing what God truly feels
about us and calling himdaughter.
You know, calling her daughter.
It's just a, it's a huge, it'sa huge blessing to go over the
(37:01):
story with you.
So thank you, thank you.
Debbie (37:03):
Thank you for having me.
Thanks for being with us,Debbie.
Jason (37:06):
Well thanks everybody for listening.
Uh, another great episode.
Another great episode, anothergreat guest.
We're so thankful for Debbiefor spending some time with us.
We ask you to reach out on oursocials if you want to get a
hold of Debbie.
Debbie, how would they get ahold of you?
Debbie (37:20):
Oh, best way is my website, debbiecoddlecom.
My phone number's there, myemail's there, yeah.
Jason (37:26):
Fantastic, wonderful.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
We appreciate it and we'll seeyou guys next week.
Javi (37:30):
Thank, you, thank you.
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