May 28, 2025 • 32 mins
Moses encounters God through a burning bush on Mount Horeb, leading to a profound dialogue about identity, purpose, and the nature of God's relationship with humanity.
• God calls Moses by name twice, showing He knows and recognizes Moses personally
• The burning bush represents a paradox – fire that doesn't consume – symbolizing God's transformative presence
• God instructs Moses to remove his sandals because he stands on holy ground
• The Hebrew term for "holy ground" (admat Kodash) is the same word used for the dirt from which Adam was formed
• Moses hides his face in fear, but God continues the conversation, meeting Moses in his unworthiness
• God reveals His name as "I AM WHO I AM," establishing His self-sufficient, independent nature
• Moses returns to the same mountain later to receive the Ten Commandments, demonstrating how God changes the person, not the place
• Personal relationship with God isn't meant to remain private but should flow outward into community
• Accountability and support from others helps sustain what begins in personal encounter
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Boundless Bible.
My name is David Shapiro, hey,I'm Javi Marquez and I'm Jason
Holloway.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Hey, what's going on, guys Doing?
Speaker 2 (00:15):
well, how are you guys, hey?
Speaker 3 (00:17):
good morning.
Always a pleasure to see you.
Same, javi.
Yes, I know, I know you guyscan't, but I can see you guys,
so we got a good one.
Today.
We're speaking about Moses, oneof our favorite characters, for
sure, and we're going to speakabout the Bernie Bush.
Well, if you don't know aboutthe Bernie Bush, David, tell us
about it.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Well, I'll tell you.
What is interesting about thisis, when you look at personal
relationships, a lot of peoplego.
You know I want a personalrelationship with God.
I know that that's.
What God wants with us ispersonal relationship, and we
always look at it from ourperspective.
What do we need to do in orderto get a personal relationship
with God?
And we've talked about prayerand reading your Bible and
things like that.
But there are things that Goddoes to show us that he wants a
(00:59):
personal relationship as well,and that comes out really
beautifully in this burning bushstory of how God is showing how
he wants this personalrelationship with us.
And it starts off with, you know, when he's calling Moses.
First of all, moses is, youknow, he's shepherding sheep.
At this point, he's doingsomething completely different
than trying to honor God or prayto God.
(01:20):
At this moment, he's just kindof living out his life and God
calls him in that very ordinaryplace of life and going hey,
moses.
And then he says it twice Moses, moses.
He's showing him that he knowshis name, he recognizes him.
He's calling him by name tocome over and to speak with him.
So this is a very personalmoment where Moses has to answer
(01:42):
.
And he goes and he sees thisburning bush, and it's not
consuming the bush, it's justburning Uh and and as he
approaches it again, thisbecomes an area where God has
put this holy ground for them tohave this discussion.
And Moses comes and.
And what does God say to Mosesbefore he steps on that ground?
Speaker 3 (02:03):
I love it, he goes.
Hey, take off your sandals.
Man, don't want to contaminatethis holy ground, Right.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
It's so interesting he does.
He said take off.
Now, what's interesting aboutthis is when you look at holy
ground the word for it, admatKodash, is the word in Hebrew
for it.
It is the exact same word thatwas used for the dirt that made
Adam, oh, wow.
So what he is saying is I'mtaking ordinary dirt and I am
making it holy by my presence.
(02:33):
He took the ordinary dirt andhe made it holy by making Adam
and and this is him starting offthe moment by telling Moses
this is holy ground, yeah, notonly by the words of saying, hey
, this is holy ground, but howhe's using that terminology by
saying this is exactly the samedirt that I made Adam out of.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Well, it also sounds like he's saying this is a place
of transformation.
That's really good, right, yeah?
And whether or not it's aboutthe place and the holiness of
the place, it's the dwellingplace of God in this moment in
which transformation is possible.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Wow, yeah, gee, I didn't even think about it in
that terms, and that's great.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Yeah, and look, I think I think this whole story
is interesting because we'retalking about personal
relationship.
And when I first came back tothe church, you know, one of the
things that I kept hearing wasthat, uh, you know, god wants a
personal relationship with youand you know, when you're
struggling with things, it'sabout the personal relationship.
And that wasn't something Iheard when I was growing up in
the church, so it was a newconcept to me and I did a little
bit of research on it.
And you know there's kind of alittle bit of controversy about
(03:33):
that.
A lot of people kind of say thatit's not a biblical concept per
se, that you know, the personalrelationship is what God wants.
But you know, as we've beentalking about this story kind of
even between us, it may not besomething that's explicit in the
Bible, but it is implicit and Ithink we can talk about it
today, about how it is implicit.
(03:53):
And you started by saying thatMoses was called by God directly
, by name, as an individual, tocome to this place and listen to
his word.
And you know that's the firstof many implicit, you know,
calls from God to a human to saylet's talk Absolutely, and also
the you know.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Going back to the holy ground part, you know,
although there are some you know, conflict on whether or not we
should be calling personal Godand things like that, it is very
important to remember that he'sinviting us close, but with
reverence.
Come speak to me, but this isholy ground, yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
I was going to say that you talk about personal
relationship and the first thingI think about is there's
certain approaches that we needto do.
God is saying hey, you can havea personal relationship with me
, but understand that there arecertain ways to approach me.
Agreed, there are certain waysto kind of understand that.
Let's understand ourrelationship too.
It's almost like I'll give youan example Jason, you and your
son right, there's a certain wayhow he needs to speak to you as
(04:51):
a father.
Right, or I'm not your friend,or else yeah, or else Just
kidding.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
No, look, and I think it's also really, really
important and I don't know ifyou guys agree with this, but I
think it's really important tosay in this example, god is
creating the personalrelationship with Moses and he
wants that personal relationshipwith Moses, but he's doing it
so that Moses can go out andhave a relationship with others.
So it's not that the religionor, you know, christ is looking
(05:17):
only for a personal relationship.
It's that he wants a personalrelationship and he wants us to
have a relationship with othersand sometimes he becomes the
facility.
The relationship that we havewith God is that facilitator
that we can have relationshipwith others.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Absolutely.
And the other thing he doeswhich is really just beautiful
is you know, we always say Godmeets you right where you are,
right, yeah, and you know, whenyou hear it long enough, you're
like I don't know what thatmeans to make me feel good.
Here's the moment where God isliterally doing that, and the
reason you know that is when hestarts talking to Moses and he
says I'm the God of Abraham andIsaac and Jacob.
(05:50):
Moses hid his face and he wasafraid to look at God.
Moses is feeling whether it'sshame from his life, whether
it's I shouldn't be here, myself-worth, whatever Moses is
feeling at that moment, he'shiding his face from God and God
is still appearing to himexactly where he is as a
shepherd, as a criminal who wasexiled, and God is going.
(06:15):
No, I'm here for you.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Let's talk for a second about what it means when
we say that God meets you whereyou are.
You know.
I think, I think again, like yousaid, I think it's a really
good point.
This is one of those thingsthat you hear a lot and yet it
kind of has either lost itsmeaning or you never fully
understood it.
You just went yeah, that soundsgood, and you kept moving.
But, like, what does it meanfor God to meet you where you
are?
It means, in one sense, it canmean that you don't feel worthy
(06:43):
of going to seek out God.
So you don't go seek out Godbecause you don't think it's
going to be a positiveexperience.
But God comes to you and saysI'm approaching you because I
want you to know that you'reworthy.
I'm approaching you in yourfault, because I see you
differently than you seeyourself.
(07:03):
And yet another way of lookingat it, especially in this, in a
really literal term, it's likeMoses didn't go to church for
this to happen.
Moses wasn't seeking it out,Moses was just doing his daily
work.
He was just going about hisregular life and bing.
(07:24):
This thing, you know, caughthis attention.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Yeah, your number's up Right.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
It caught his attention.
And, interestingly enough, itcaught his attention and he
didn't go seek it out, right,yeah.
And then it caught hisattention again.
He didn't seek it out, and thenhe was God.
Literally was like hey, youover here?
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
And you know, this is what we do too.
Like occasionally we're we'resitting in our daily lives and
we get this moment ofinspiration and we realize that
maybe we should be doing X, y orZ, but we're like yeah, yeah,
yeah, and we just ignore it andignore it, and ignore it.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
I think this is what God says Listen, dummy, pay
attention.
Yeah, what I what I feel whenthey say God meets you where
you're at.
It's God knows your struggles,god knows what you're going
through and he's meeting youwhere you're at.
He's understanding, he's beingcompassionate, he's being
empathetic is the right word.
(08:15):
It's to your feelings and whatyou've done and he's there with
you and he's going to walk alongwith you to overcome this
struggle and stuff this.
You know struggle and stufflike that.
And that's what I feel like whenI hear that, like God meets you
where you're at, he's going tobe there for you.
He knows what you've beenthrough, he's been, he
understands it.
You know what I'm saying andyou could go to him for anything
(08:36):
, for counsel, you go to him fordirection.
And I think God is beautiful inthat way.
And when I see this with Moseskind of showing up there he's
just calling Moses, his numberis up, meaning maybe he was
struggling with a certain thing,maybe he killed someone, right?
So he's struggling with thefact still through these days,
maybe like I've murderedsomebody, I'm not worthy, and
(08:59):
God is meeting him and going hey, now's the time, come here,
come here, my son.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Take off your shoes, but let's talk, take off your
shoes.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
But let's talk, right .
Yeah, well, we'll never qualifyourselves in the right way.
We always have our past, wealways have different things,
the doubts, um.
So god is qualifying us forthings that we would never
qualify ourselves for, uh, andthen it works in the same way.
Sometimes we qualify ourselvesfor things that we just
shouldn't.
We shouldn't, right.
And you know, and here god issaying very specifically hey,
hey, moses, yeah, you know, Isee you hide in your face.
(09:28):
Right, I have something for you.
And then he goes into what heneeds from him.
Right, he is.
I've been watching theIsraelites, I'm watching their
suffering and you're going to goand and work through me.
Yeah, you're going to free theIsraelites from the Egyptians.
And it's not a hey, can you dothis?
Right, I am qualifying you.
(09:49):
You are going to go and do this, whether you felt called to,
whether you felt qualified tobeforehand.
I am calling you and I amqualifying you.
And then Moses does somethingreally interesting.
Before he goes into the denialof no, I shouldn't do it, that's
not me, okay.
And before he goes into thedenial of no, I shouldn't do it,
that's not me, okay, he goesall right if I come to the
people of Israel because, again,I was raised Egyptian.
(10:11):
They don't see me as Israeli.
Right, who do I say you are?
How are they going to believeme?
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Now, before you go into that, I wanted to go back
into how God show up and speakinto him.
Okay, it was a bernie bush, yep, right.
Most of the part I thought hewas hallucinating or some some
sort to whatever it is, and Ijust feel like god shows up in
different ways to speak to usand that could go through a
friend, that could go through aprayer, that go through an
(10:38):
audible voice, um, you know, tous it could be through a dream
that god speaks to us now, tothis day, here.
It just so happens that hespoke to Moses through the
burning bush.
For many reasons, I do not knowwhy, but he did, and I just
thought that was kind ofinteresting.
Maybe there's something therewithin the Hebrew or something.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Not that I know of there very well, maybe.
Yeah, I think that when youthink of anything that's going
to catch your attention, whenyou see a burning bush
especially again, you're talkingabout somebody who is living
outdoors or living in thewilderness Things probably are.
They see smoke and thingsburning down all the time.
You have to be Right, right,right, but it's when it wasn't
(11:22):
consumed.
It's when something's on fireand it's not consumed, and that
could be symbolic for a lot of.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Well, that's what I was going to say.
Look this one.
I could spend a really longtime just going through all the
symbolism.
Yeah, because every time Ithink about it, I think of
something new.
Like right, in this very moment, what's going through my head
is that fire is not consuming amaterial substance.
Okay, which is the typicalthing the fire would do.
(11:49):
Right, fire doesn't burn, andso that's like us.
We are the material substance,and when God is in us, even the
fire doesn't burn us down thefire of hell, the fire of sin,
the fire of you know, the fierydepths of sin aren't burning us.
And it's him saying you know?
And then, on the other hand,there's a totally other side.
(12:09):
Where in the Old Testament,don't they also call God, you
know, god is the fire.
God is the fire of good, in theOld Testament as well.
So in this case you can look atthe bush and say we are still
the bush, except this time weare consumed by fire.
What do you say when you'rereally like, inspired by God,
you're on fire for the Lord.
You know, so maybe you know hewas.
He was coming to his own fireof himself and the bush
(12:33):
represented him and he was goingto be on fire for the Lord,
which he was, and like, I guessthis is a crazy one Cause.
And then there's anotherinterpretation.
I heard one time that hadsomething to do with the thorns
on on the bush, and that lifewill continue to.
You know, uh, stab at you andyou'll be burned, but nothing's
going to happen, you're going tobe okay, and so it just.
It's just so, so, so full andso rich of symbolism.
(12:54):
I think we have to askourselves what is our burning
bush, you know, in our own lives, when God is meeting us where
we are, what's the burning bushthat we're not paying attention
to?
What's the thing in our lifethat is an oxymoron?
What is the thing in our lifethat is, you know, defying
convention?
What is the thing in our lifethat doesn't seem possible but
(13:14):
is and here we are ignoring?
Speaker 1 (13:16):
it.
Or again, going to thesymbolism which it just kind of
hit me, is this a mirror ofMoses?
And the reason I say that isMoses feels small.
Okay, when we expect God toappear, it's going to be a
burning tree, a burning mountain.
It's a bush, yeah.
In Hebrew it's called sneh,it's small, so he is coming as a
(13:38):
small burning mountain.
It's a bush.
In Hebrew it's called sneh,it's small, so he is coming as a
small burning bush.
Again we have.
This image of this is fantastic.
I've never seen it, but he'scoming as something very small,
not what God could come as, andmaybe he's making himself
smaller Again as the mirror ofMoses.
You're coming to me very small,but look at all the power behind
this.
You're not going to be consumed.
Being as small as you arereleasing the Israelites, you
(14:02):
are not going to be consumed.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Again.
We can probably go on.
It occurs to me now too that inthis case, fire is probably not
hell and damnation.
Because, and I'll tell you why-Because in a few more chapters,
the fire is going to lead themthrough the desert at night in
order to guide them.
So in this case, fire is almostdefinitely a goodness.
(14:24):
It's the fire of God, it's thepower and the strength of God,
again being connected to a verytemporal biological substance,
but yet not burning it.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
No, no, I like what you said, david.
You said the fire.
Maybe it was.
It was small and it was just abush and it was.
It was a snake.
Maybe that's he had to approachit that way to Moses to not
maybe scare him off or something.
Right, it was to come down andsplit the heavens open to come
speak to him.
Maybe that could have been.
You know which he doeseventually, but you know at that
(14:56):
time it could have been toomuch.
Yeah, it could be overwhelmingwith what's going on.
So I think a burning bush orwhichever way, god, at times, I
think, speaks to us.
It's right for us.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Well, I think Jason hit the nail on the head, which
is we all have.
We hear the burning goes intoour mind, whether it came from a
movie you know the tencommandments, we watched that
whether it came from something,something comes to our mind and
we think of this glorious moment.
Yeah, and the symbolism isdifferent also for every once of
us, every one of us, and Ithink it's a beautiful thing too
(15:27):
, is like it doesn't need to beone of these symbolisms or not.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
It's like if you, you attach yourself to the one that
makes them impact in your lifeand hold on to that.
That's almost completely thewonder of the Bible.
Like it doesn't need to have asingular meaning.
It needs to have a singularmeaning that attaches to you,
which is a really great segue tothe personal relationship with
God.
Right, and this is, it doesn'thave to be the general
(15:53):
relationship with God.
It's about the uniqueindividual who's reading and
interpreting and then processingand how they do so.
And that's why you can read theburning bush and you can read
the burning bush and I can readthe burning bush and we see it
differently, we feel itdifferently, we understand it
differently, but it still leadsto the same place.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Absolutely.
I love that.
And then we get back into wherewe were going, which is, you
know, god says his name, andthis is the same thing.
This, over the years, hasdebated about what this means.
How do you interpret God's name?
Because he says I am that, I amRight, okay, which in Hebrew
Iyeh, asher, iyeh, okay, this is, I am that I am, but it has
(16:33):
been defined in different ways.
One is just how it is.
I am that I am, I'mself-existent, I'm self-defining
.
This is who I am.
I'm here.
Another one which I really lovethere there's a brilliant
professor that I heard this fromsaying I will be who I will be,
which is also the sametranslation, and this is ongoing
(16:53):
, active, present in our lives.
This is I will be.
I will be how I will be.
The way he puts it is I will bethere.
However, I shall be there.
That's good Kind of letting usknow I will always be God, I
will always be steady, I'llalways be me and I'll always be
there.
I am that I am.
And it's such a beautiful.
You want to talk about ablanket at night?
You?
Speaker 3 (17:12):
know selfish plug there.
We did the whole Gossconsistency episode and it just
shows you there even his name.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
This is one of the things that, philosophically,
I've probably spent one of themost amount of time on, because
I find this to be the core ofeverything.
Yeah, literally the core ofeverything.
Like he says, I am, that I am,which, again, that has different
translations.
I'm reading a couple othertranslations that are out there.
I am who I am.
I will become what I choose tobecome is another one.
(17:41):
I will be what I will be isanother one.
That's good, and one that Ilike.
I create whatever I create.
Okay, and last, I am theexisting one, yep, and I love
that this is so deep.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
You know why I love that so much?
Because I think when we speakabout, when we think about a
personal God, we want God to bethe way we want God to be.
And there's first of all, whenwe think about relationships.
That's the tough thing aboutrelationships.
You know I'm married, so youknow me and my wife.
Sometimes that's the toughthing about relationships.
You know I'm married, so youknow me and my wife.
Sometimes, well, the toughthing is I can't control her.
(18:21):
I can't whatever.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Not that I want to control her but, like you know,
she can't control you, she can'tcontrol me.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
And two people that you kind of have sometimes.
And when we talk about personalGod, I want God to do what I
want him to do when I want himto do it and say and speak to me
how I want it.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
It's so hard not to quote Talladega Nights right now
.
Oh, sorry.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
And then so hearing that and hearing the different
ways of kind of interpretationof that here I am, what is that?
Here I am, I am what I am andit's like he's going to come the
way he's going to come andthat's the way God is and we
have to be accepting of that andthat's how we could grow in our
relationship and we let go ofthe control that we want for God
.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Yeah, this is going to get deep, so bear with me for
a second.
I think that when we talkingabout I am what I am, you have
to think we always talk aboutGod being bigger than we can
imagine.
Right, and it's easy for us.
We kind of have to likepersonify God because that's the
way that we see him.
And when you do that, javi,like you said, you have
expectations for him.
You want him to show up in acertain way.
(19:24):
But if God is the, the universecreator, the force behind all
forces, the action, the reaction, the cause, the effect, the
connection to all things, thething that keeps all the energy
and the momentum that keeps lifemoving, that is far bigger than
(19:44):
anything that we're talkingabout here.
When we're looking at a person,right and I am what I am means
just that I am everything.
I am not the physicalmanifestation of the thing that
you love.
I'm not the food, I'm not theperson you love, I'm not the car
you drive, I'm not the woodthat you have to build your
house.
I am the force that made thosethings happen at all.
(20:07):
I am not you, I am the breath,I'm the reason you can breathe
at all.
And when you stop and take alook.
In fact, I was at a Bible studylast night.
We were kind of like touchingon this subject.
And it's not the car that youdrive that gets you to work that
you should be thankful for.
It's the fact that you have abreath in your lungs and the
heartbeat in your heart thateven allows you to wake up to do
(20:28):
it and, stepping even furtherdown that rabbit hole, it's the
fact that you have enough energyin your brain to be aware and
conscious of any of this stuff.
That's where God lives.
God is in the consciousness ofthe universe.
He's the maker and the creatorof all things.
When you take a moment torealize how big, how vast, how
(20:49):
powerful, how big, how vast, howpowerful, how awe-inspiring it
is that every molecule in thisuniverse hit every other
molecule and knocked into everyother molecule and connected
with every molecule to createthe things that have been
created.
To create the things that werecreated to ultimately mean that
I'm going to be able to sit hereright now and say a word and
you're able to understand it Wow.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
Yeah, to understand it.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Wow, yeah, love it.
Unbelievable, like gigantic,enormous, incredible, vast.
There's no words for it.
Right, and this is what I am.
What I am, yeah, I am all thatyou could ever think of, and
billions and trillions of timesmore.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Yeah, yeah, and it's okay that we can't grasp that.
We're human.
We will never grasp the size,the scope, no, everything you
just laid down.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
It's impossible right , we can't, but it's important
to have the context of it right.
And this is the thing when yourealize how vast that is, it
finally gives you context forhow vast you aren't.
And this is the reason why Ihave to be humble in my life and
I can't live my life for mebecause little, teeny,
insignificant me can't possiblyknow enough to make good
(22:00):
decisions, can't possibly knowenough to choose right over
wrong every time.
Can't you know what I?
Speaker 3 (22:06):
mean.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
And so, and so it's that humility that I have to
have in realizing myrelationship in contrast to god
that allows me to truly respectgod, to come with that sense of
reverence that we talked about.
Yeah, and when I have thatsense of reverence now, I'm
rightly aligned with god,because I see how big yeah
that's what I always mentioned.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
I always mentioned like, yeah, you know, god is
infinite and we're just fine,we're finite, super finite.
God is infinite and we'refinite, we're small, we're this
little speck, you know.
And once we understand, that,relationship rose in a sense we
could have a better relationship, we could live in unison in
(22:45):
that way with God.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
But the personal relationship that he's having
with us is he knows how he canunderstand exactly how large he
is.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
It's not a, it's not a one-way street, correct he?
Speaker 1 (22:56):
we know how big he is , but he also knows how small we
are and he knows how much weneed, and he still chooses to be
with us and then the I'm goingto do a really quick fast
forward in the story of moses,because you have moses who's at
the burning bush top of themountain.
He's having this conversationwith God.
Fast forward to through all ofEgypt.
He goes to Egypt, everythinghappens, they leave Egypt, they
(23:18):
come back and then he gets the10 commandments.
And what he's getting yeah,where he's getting the 10
commandments is on top of theexact same mountain the same
mountain, yeah, he's come
Speaker 2 (23:27):
full circle got.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Yep, god has put him full circle.
He goes.
Where you met me is whereyou're going to learn about me,
where I'm giving you the law,where I'm going to be with you,
where I'm going.
He is going full circle in therelationship and with us.
That's really comforting, alsobecause there are times where we
feel like, hey, I, I've met youhere.
I have this feeling.
(23:49):
Life happens.
It sometimes goes away.
I have doubt.
I have desert, I have, you know, uh, the fear of where the next
food's coming from.
I fear of my enemies, but by atmy back it just it.
You know, life creeps up, yeah,and then, at the very end of
that, god still meets us exactlywhere he is, where we are, and
(24:11):
it's full circle and it goes.
He's always there.
I am what I am.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
It reminds me back Agreed, what we were talking
about before, with the wholepersonal and just kind of like
God and and how to approach himand stuff like that.
I think the 10 commandments isjust that.
I think it's we've we.
We are made to yearn fordiscipline, we just are.
We want to be free and we arefree in many ways.
But discipline helps us to grow, helps us to cultivate, it
(24:37):
helps us to build relationshipswith God, especially in that way
.
Sometimes people look at rulesand it's kind of like, oh my God
, but God is personal, he's alsothere, loving and all this
other stuff.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Well, I think the personal relationship with God
is how we create a betterversion of ourselves, because I
know I'm not capable of runningmy own life well, but when I
have that personal relationshipwith God and I have my prayer
life right with God and Iunderstand my place is very,
very low on the totem poleversus God and I keep my eyes
(25:11):
towards God and I try to actmore like God, I'm going to end
up being better.
I'm going to end up beingbetter, not because I'm better,
but because he's making mebetter and yeah, the thing about
that.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
you sparked the thing in my head right now, in my
mind.
You know you're talking aboutlife.
Life is we don't do life alone,meaning you could do life alone
and be alone, but there'severything that's happening
around us.
That's happening as well, like.
I'll give you an example, inthe sense of things are
happening.
We have to deal with people atthe grocery store, we have to
(25:45):
deal with circumstances thathappens to our life, and how do
we approach those things withouthaving some kind of direction,
you know approach to approachingthose things.
You know I'm not trying to veeroff too much, but you made me
think about that.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
I think this is right , I mean this is right, though,
like again, the idea is that Iam insufficient in my own will
and in my own knowledge.
Will and in my own knowledge,and on a daily basis, by being
closer to God, by having thatpersonal relationship which he
offers me.
It's just like having a supportsystem of people around me,
(26:18):
because he's telling me theright thing to do and when I
start going the wrong way, hegoes.
Nope, not that way.
Now, granted, I do want to segueinto.
I don't think that Christianitycan be a solo relationship or
an only personal relationship,because that's not how this
works.
Like we are still flawedcharacters and we live in our
own heads with if we live in ourown heads, we're going to end
up in the wrong place, and Ithink that the importance of
(26:39):
what Moses is being called to dois he isn't being called to
have a personal relationship andstay on top of that mountain by
himself.
He's being called to go backinto Egypt to collect his people
, to reinvest what God is givinghim into those people, and then
all of them keep themselves andlook what happens when they
leave Egypt.
The minute he goes up to thetop to go get those 10
(27:03):
commandments you talked about,those people fell apart.
They created an idol becausethey couldn't wait a couple of
days to figure out what to do,and they created this idol.
And so this is again.
It turns into a great storyabout how the personal
relationship that God isoffering you is for the benefit
of you, but also so that you canbenefit others.
That's good.
That's exactly what I wastrying to get at.
(27:23):
Yeah, and then once you benefitthose others.
Now they can benefit you backand this is where you get this
really beautiful cycle ofcommunity.
And a community who believestogether holds one another
accountable.
And that accountability I thinkaccountability in our society
today has a negative connotation, but accountability is what we
all need, right?
We all need the accountabilityto say that I'm on the right
(27:46):
track.
I'm staying on the right track.
If you guys were to see megoing in the wrong direction,
you would tell me hey, look, youshould probably pray about that
, or you should probably do this.
Or hey, why don't you come withme to something else to not do
those things?
Like it's all related, but thepersonal relationship is the
beginning of it all.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Yeah, and I think just you know, this is one of
those episodes where feelingjust convicted, just to recap
really quickly, and you knowthere's a lot here, and we're
talking about personalrelationships.
I'm kind of looking at it going.
You know, we have a story herewhere somebody was not looking
for God.
God reached down and startedthe conversation, initiated it.
(28:22):
So, yes, I love God.
Knowing that God initiated thatlove first, I responded with
love.
God has reached out to all ofus.
We are responding with thatcommunication back that love
back, and it's for many purposesit's for our own symbolism,
it's for relationships that wehave in our lives.
But if we answer the call oflove, if we answer the
(28:44):
communication, the personalrelationship God's looking to
have with us, as massive as itseems, as huge as things that
we're not going to be able toever, ever understand, um, we
just have to know that he isthere, he is talking to us and
he's showing us love and we justneed to respond with such just
talk back and show love back.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Yeah, yeah, I totally agree.
You know the.
The other thing I think isreally interesting, when you
mentioned the idea that he goesback to the same mountain again,
is I've mentioned there's.
There's an asian, uh quote thatI there's actually, I think
even even earlier, related toheraclitus, and he says a man
never steps in the same rivertwice, and I think this is the
(29:26):
other beautiful thing about godis like moses started on that
mountain, not connected to God,and later he comes back to that
same mountain, totally changed,yep.
So even you know I think that'swhat what God does.
He doesn't change the place, hechanges the person.
That's great Right and and he'schanging the person of Moses in
(29:47):
the same way that if he'scalling you with his burning
bush today, he's going to changeyou as well.
He's going to you, may.
You may live in the same house,you may have the same family,
you may have the same friends,you may do the same things,
roughly, or, but you're going tobe changed.
Yeah, If you accept that calland if you accept the, the love
and the, the love and the andthe personal relationship with.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
Jesus, yeah, and I think you're.
You're really, I mean not tonot to like dabble in heretical
thing, but like I think yourpersonal relationship with you,
with God, is your personalrelationship, meaning he's going
to speak to you in a certainway.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
In a way that you need to be spoken to, that you
need to be spoken to.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
You know, and and I think that's a beautiful thing,
because for me to hear it, andthe way David maybe hears God in
that way or God has called himto do, I probably won't be able
to do, or for you, jason, hecalls to me in my abilities you
could say, or whatever I coulddo, or whatever he speaks to me,
how I could understand whathe's saying to me.
(30:44):
It's personal.
I don't think it's heretical atall.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
I think we see that in the Bible over and over and
over again.
Yeah, for sure.
I mean you say God reaching out.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Well, even Paul, you know Paul, and when he's
speaking to the Romans he speaksdifferently than when he speaks
to Hebrews.
I mean, he literally changes.
He uses their philosophers inHebrews.
I think it is Right, his points, and I think it's really
interesting that that's there,that it doesn't have to be the
same.
Like you said, it doesn't haveto be the same.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
We're going to speak about that in a second About you
know, Is it really a secondImaginizing?
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Well, we'll talk about it.
Well, guys, anything else youwant to add to this topic?
Speaker 1 (31:23):
No, I think that if, right now, you're sitting at
home and you are feelingconvicted and you're having this
conversation and you feel thetug on your heart and you hear
God speaking to you and you wantthis personal relationship with
God I think you know we set itfor here which is just
everyone's going to have theirown version of their
relationship with God as far ashow he calls out to them.
You have to speak back, youhave to show him love, the way
(31:44):
he's showing you, and if you'restill confused or you feel like,
hey, I was put in thiscommunity and, and god wants me
to talk more about this, we'rehere, so open up and have a
conversation with us, talk to uson our socials.
Uh, let's talk about it.
You know, this is one of thosemoments where you know god is
really trying to have a personalrelationship with us, which,
(32:05):
with everything that jason laiddown, really should astound you.
Somebody who, who can doeverything that God has done,
wants to have a relationshipwith us, and we can see this
being true and lived out in theBible.
You know, this is an amazingthing.
So I just I paid everything.
I just said I'm going to stepback and All right, guys.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Well, look, that was great, that was really great,
and if this podcast is yourburning bush, we'd love to hear
about it.
Amen, thanks a lot, guys.
Socials you know how to get ahold of us.
David's got a discussion groupon Facebook.
Facebook discussion group andplease, with the subscribes and
the likes and the ratings arereally, really helpful for us
(32:45):
guys.
We'd appreciate that and, asalways, we appreciate your time.
Thanks a lot.
See, you have a great day.
Welcome to the Boundless Bible.
My name is David Shapiro, hey,I'm Javi Marquez and I'm Jason
Holloway.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
Hey, what's going on, guys Doing?
Speaker 2 (00:15):
well, how are you guys, hey?
Speaker 3 (00:17):
good morning.
Always a pleasure to see you.
Same, javi.
Yes, I know, I know you guyscan't, but I can see you guys,
so we got a good one.
Today.
We're speaking about Moses, oneof our favorite characters, for
sure, and we're going to speakabout the Bernie Bush.
Well, if you don't know aboutthe Bernie Bush, David, tell us
about it.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Well, I'll tell you.
What is interesting about thisis, when you look at personal
relationships, a lot of peoplego.
You know I want a personalrelationship with God.
I know that that's.
What God wants with us ispersonal relationship, and we
always look at it from ourperspective.
What do we need to do in orderto get a personal relationship
with God?
And we've talked about prayerand reading your Bible and
things like that.
But there are things that Goddoes to show us that he wants a
(00:59):
personal relationship as well,and that comes out really
beautifully in this burning bushstory of how God is showing how
he wants this personalrelationship with us.
And it starts off with, you know, when he's calling Moses.
First of all, moses is, youknow, he's shepherding sheep.
At this point, he's doingsomething completely different
than trying to honor God or prayto God.
(01:20):
At this moment, he's just kindof living out his life and God
calls him in that very ordinaryplace of life and going hey,
moses.
And then he says it twice Moses, moses.
He's showing him that he knowshis name, he recognizes him.
He's calling him by name tocome over and to speak with him.
So this is a very personalmoment where Moses has to answer
(01:42):
.
And he goes and he sees thisburning bush, and it's not
consuming the bush, it's justburning Uh and and as he
approaches it again, thisbecomes an area where God has
put this holy ground for them tohave this discussion.
And Moses comes and.
And what does God say to Mosesbefore he steps on that ground?
Speaker 3 (02:03):
I love it, he goes.
Hey, take off your sandals.
Man, don't want to contaminatethis holy ground, Right.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
It's so interesting he does.
He said take off.
Now, what's interesting aboutthis is when you look at holy
ground the word for it, admatKodash, is the word in Hebrew
for it.
It is the exact same word thatwas used for the dirt that made
Adam, oh, wow.
So what he is saying is I'mtaking ordinary dirt and I am
making it holy by my presence.
(02:33):
He took the ordinary dirt andhe made it holy by making Adam
and and this is him starting offthe moment by telling Moses
this is holy ground, yeah, notonly by the words of saying, hey
, this is holy ground, but howhe's using that terminology by
saying this is exactly the samedirt that I made Adam out of.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Well, it also sounds like he's saying this is a place
of transformation.
That's really good, right, yeah?
And whether or not it's aboutthe place and the holiness of
the place, it's the dwellingplace of God in this moment in
which transformation is possible.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Wow, yeah, gee, I didn't even think about it in
that terms, and that's great.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Yeah, and look, I think I think this whole story
is interesting because we'retalking about personal
relationship.
And when I first came back tothe church, you know, one of the
things that I kept hearing wasthat, uh, you know, god wants a
personal relationship with youand you know, when you're
struggling with things, it'sabout the personal relationship.
And that wasn't something Iheard when I was growing up in
the church, so it was a newconcept to me and I did a little
bit of research on it.
And you know there's kind of alittle bit of controversy about
(03:33):
that.
A lot of people kind of say thatit's not a biblical concept per
se, that you know, the personalrelationship is what God wants.
But you know, as we've beentalking about this story kind of
even between us, it may not besomething that's explicit in the
Bible, but it is implicit and Ithink we can talk about it
today, about how it is implicit.
(03:53):
And you started by saying thatMoses was called by God directly
, by name, as an individual, tocome to this place and listen to
his word.
And you know that's the firstof many implicit, you know,
calls from God to a human to saylet's talk Absolutely, and also
the you know.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Going back to the holy ground part, you know,
although there are some you know, conflict on whether or not we
should be calling personal Godand things like that, it is very
important to remember that he'sinviting us close, but with
reverence.
Come speak to me, but this isholy ground, yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
I was going to say that you talk about personal
relationship and the first thingI think about is there's
certain approaches that we needto do.
God is saying hey, you can havea personal relationship with me
, but understand that there arecertain ways to approach me.
Agreed, there are certain waysto kind of understand that.
Let's understand ourrelationship too.
It's almost like I'll give youan example Jason, you and your
son right, there's a certain wayhow he needs to speak to you as
(04:51):
a father.
Right, or I'm not your friend,or else yeah, or else Just
kidding.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
No, look, and I think it's also really, really
important and I don't know ifyou guys agree with this, but I
think it's really important tosay in this example, god is
creating the personalrelationship with Moses and he
wants that personal relationshipwith Moses, but he's doing it
so that Moses can go out andhave a relationship with others.
So it's not that the religionor, you know, christ is looking
(05:17):
only for a personal relationship.
It's that he wants a personalrelationship and he wants us to
have a relationship with othersand sometimes he becomes the
facility.
The relationship that we havewith God is that facilitator
that we can have relationshipwith others.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Absolutely.
And the other thing he doeswhich is really just beautiful
is you know, we always say Godmeets you right where you are,
right, yeah, and you know, whenyou hear it long enough, you're
like I don't know what thatmeans to make me feel good.
Here's the moment where God isliterally doing that, and the
reason you know that is when hestarts talking to Moses and he
says I'm the God of Abraham andIsaac and Jacob.
(05:50):
Moses hid his face and he wasafraid to look at God.
Moses is feeling whether it'sshame from his life, whether
it's I shouldn't be here, myself-worth, whatever Moses is
feeling at that moment, he'shiding his face from God and God
is still appearing to himexactly where he is as a
shepherd, as a criminal who wasexiled, and God is going.
(06:15):
No, I'm here for you.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Let's talk for a second about what it means when
we say that God meets you whereyou are.
You know.
I think, I think again, like yousaid, I think it's a really
good point.
This is one of those thingsthat you hear a lot and yet it
kind of has either lost itsmeaning or you never fully
understood it.
You just went yeah, that soundsgood, and you kept moving.
But, like, what does it meanfor God to meet you where you
are?
It means, in one sense, it canmean that you don't feel worthy
(06:43):
of going to seek out God.
So you don't go seek out Godbecause you don't think it's
going to be a positiveexperience.
But God comes to you and saysI'm approaching you because I
want you to know that you'reworthy.
I'm approaching you in yourfault, because I see you
differently than you seeyourself.
(07:03):
And yet another way of lookingat it, especially in this, in a
really literal term, it's likeMoses didn't go to church for
this to happen.
Moses wasn't seeking it out,Moses was just doing his daily
work.
He was just going about hisregular life and bing.
(07:24):
This thing, you know, caughthis attention.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Yeah, your number's up Right.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
It caught his attention.
And, interestingly enough, itcaught his attention and he
didn't go seek it out, right,yeah.
And then it caught hisattention again.
He didn't seek it out, and thenhe was God.
Literally was like hey, youover here?
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
And you know, this is what we do too.
Like occasionally we're we'resitting in our daily lives and
we get this moment ofinspiration and we realize that
maybe we should be doing X, y orZ, but we're like yeah, yeah,
yeah, and we just ignore it andignore it, and ignore it.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
I think this is what God says Listen, dummy, pay
attention.
Yeah, what I what I feel whenthey say God meets you where
you're at.
It's God knows your struggles,god knows what you're going
through and he's meeting youwhere you're at.
He's understanding, he's beingcompassionate, he's being
empathetic is the right word.
(08:15):
It's to your feelings and whatyou've done and he's there with
you and he's going to walk alongwith you to overcome this
struggle and stuff this.
You know struggle and stufflike that.
And that's what I feel like whenI hear that, like God meets you
where you're at, he's going tobe there for you.
He knows what you've beenthrough, he's been, he
understands it.
You know what I'm saying andyou could go to him for anything
(08:36):
, for counsel, you go to him fordirection.
And I think God is beautiful inthat way.
And when I see this with Moseskind of showing up there he's
just calling Moses, his numberis up, meaning maybe he was
struggling with a certain thing,maybe he killed someone, right?
So he's struggling with thefact still through these days,
maybe like I've murderedsomebody, I'm not worthy, and
(08:59):
God is meeting him and going hey, now's the time, come here,
come here, my son.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Take off your shoes, but let's talk, take off your
shoes.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
But let's talk, right .
Yeah, well, we'll never qualifyourselves in the right way.
We always have our past, wealways have different things,
the doubts, um.
So god is qualifying us forthings that we would never
qualify ourselves for, uh, andthen it works in the same way.
Sometimes we qualify ourselvesfor things that we just
shouldn't.
We shouldn't, right.
And you know, and here god issaying very specifically hey,
hey, moses, yeah, you know, Isee you hide in your face.
(09:28):
Right, I have something for you.
And then he goes into what heneeds from him.
Right, he is.
I've been watching theIsraelites, I'm watching their
suffering and you're going to goand and work through me.
Yeah, you're going to free theIsraelites from the Egyptians.
And it's not a hey, can you dothis?
Right, I am qualifying you.
(09:49):
You are going to go and do this, whether you felt called to,
whether you felt qualified tobeforehand.
I am calling you and I amqualifying you.
And then Moses does somethingreally interesting.
Before he goes into the denialof no, I shouldn't do it, that's
not me, okay.
And before he goes into thedenial of no, I shouldn't do it,
that's not me, okay, he goesall right if I come to the
people of Israel because, again,I was raised Egyptian.
(10:11):
They don't see me as Israeli.
Right, who do I say you are?
How are they going to believeme?
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Now, before you go into that, I wanted to go back
into how God show up and speakinto him.
Okay, it was a bernie bush, yep, right.
Most of the part I thought hewas hallucinating or some some
sort to whatever it is, and Ijust feel like god shows up in
different ways to speak to usand that could go through a
friend, that could go through aprayer, that go through an
(10:38):
audible voice, um, you know, tous it could be through a dream
that god speaks to us now, tothis day, here.
It just so happens that hespoke to Moses through the
burning bush.
For many reasons, I do not knowwhy, but he did, and I just
thought that was kind ofinteresting.
Maybe there's something therewithin the Hebrew or something.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Not that I know of there very well, maybe.
Yeah, I think that when youthink of anything that's going
to catch your attention, whenyou see a burning bush
especially again, you're talkingabout somebody who is living
outdoors or living in thewilderness Things probably are.
They see smoke and thingsburning down all the time.
You have to be Right, right,right, but it's when it wasn't
(11:22):
consumed.
It's when something's on fireand it's not consumed, and that
could be symbolic for a lot of.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Well, that's what I was going to say.
Look this one.
I could spend a really longtime just going through all the
symbolism.
Yeah, because every time Ithink about it, I think of
something new.
Like right, in this very moment, what's going through my head
is that fire is not consuming amaterial substance.
Okay, which is the typicalthing the fire would do.
(11:49):
Right, fire doesn't burn, andso that's like us.
We are the material substance,and when God is in us, even the
fire doesn't burn us down thefire of hell, the fire of sin,
the fire of you know, the fierydepths of sin aren't burning us.
And it's him saying you know?
And then, on the other hand,there's a totally other side.
(12:09):
Where in the Old Testament,don't they also call God, you
know, god is the fire.
God is the fire of good, in theOld Testament as well.
So in this case you can look atthe bush and say we are still
the bush, except this time weare consumed by fire.
What do you say when you'rereally like, inspired by God,
you're on fire for the Lord.
You know, so maybe you know hewas.
He was coming to his own fireof himself and the bush
(12:33):
represented him and he was goingto be on fire for the Lord,
which he was, and like, I guessthis is a crazy one Cause.
And then there's anotherinterpretation.
I heard one time that hadsomething to do with the thorns
on on the bush, and that lifewill continue to.
You know, uh, stab at you andyou'll be burned, but nothing's
going to happen, you're going tobe okay, and so it just.
It's just so, so, so full andso rich of symbolism.
(12:54):
I think we have to askourselves what is our burning
bush, you know, in our own lives, when God is meeting us where
we are, what's the burning bushthat we're not paying attention
to?
What's the thing in our lifethat is an oxymoron?
What is the thing in our lifethat is, you know, defying
convention?
What is the thing in our lifethat doesn't seem possible but
(13:14):
is and here we are ignoring?
Speaker 1 (13:16):
it.
Or again, going to thesymbolism which it just kind of
hit me, is this a mirror ofMoses?
And the reason I say that isMoses feels small.
Okay, when we expect God toappear, it's going to be a
burning tree, a burning mountain.
It's a bush, yeah.
In Hebrew it's called sneh,it's small, so he is coming as a
(13:38):
small burning mountain.
It's a bush.
In Hebrew it's called sneh,it's small, so he is coming as a
small burning bush.
Again we have.
This image of this is fantastic.
I've never seen it, but he'scoming as something very small,
not what God could come as, andmaybe he's making himself
smaller Again as the mirror ofMoses.
You're coming to me very small,but look at all the power behind
this.
You're not going to be consumed.
Being as small as you arereleasing the Israelites, you
(14:02):
are not going to be consumed.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Again.
We can probably go on.
It occurs to me now too that inthis case, fire is probably not
hell and damnation.
Because, and I'll tell you why-Because in a few more chapters,
the fire is going to lead themthrough the desert at night in
order to guide them.
So in this case, fire is almostdefinitely a goodness.
(14:24):
It's the fire of God, it's thepower and the strength of God,
again being connected to a verytemporal biological substance,
but yet not burning it.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
No, no, I like what you said, david.
You said the fire.
Maybe it was.
It was small and it was just abush and it was.
It was a snake.
Maybe that's he had to approachit that way to Moses to not
maybe scare him off or something.
Right, it was to come down andsplit the heavens open to come
speak to him.
Maybe that could have been.
You know which he doeseventually, but you know at that
(14:56):
time it could have been toomuch.
Yeah, it could be overwhelmingwith what's going on.
So I think a burning bush orwhichever way, god, at times, I
think, speaks to us.
It's right for us.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Well, I think Jason hit the nail on the head, which
is we all have.
We hear the burning goes intoour mind, whether it came from a
movie you know the tencommandments, we watched that
whether it came from something,something comes to our mind and
we think of this glorious moment.
Yeah, and the symbolism isdifferent also for every once of
us, every one of us, and Ithink it's a beautiful thing too
(15:27):
, is like it doesn't need to beone of these symbolisms or not.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
It's like if you, you attach yourself to the one that
makes them impact in your lifeand hold on to that.
That's almost completely thewonder of the Bible.
Like it doesn't need to have asingular meaning.
It needs to have a singularmeaning that attaches to you,
which is a really great segue tothe personal relationship with
God.
Right, and this is, it doesn'thave to be the general
(15:53):
relationship with God.
It's about the uniqueindividual who's reading and
interpreting and then processingand how they do so.
And that's why you can read theburning bush and you can read
the burning bush and I can readthe burning bush and we see it
differently, we feel itdifferently, we understand it
differently, but it still leadsto the same place.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Absolutely.
I love that.
And then we get back into wherewe were going, which is, you
know, god says his name, andthis is the same thing.
This, over the years, hasdebated about what this means.
How do you interpret God's name?
Because he says I am that, I amRight, okay, which in Hebrew
Iyeh, asher, iyeh, okay, this is, I am that I am, but it has
(16:33):
been defined in different ways.
One is just how it is.
I am that I am, I'mself-existent, I'm self-defining
.
This is who I am.
I'm here.
Another one which I really lovethere there's a brilliant
professor that I heard this fromsaying I will be who I will be,
which is also the sametranslation, and this is ongoing
(16:53):
, active, present in our lives.
This is I will be.
I will be how I will be.
The way he puts it is I will bethere.
However, I shall be there.
That's good Kind of letting usknow I will always be God, I
will always be steady, I'llalways be me and I'll always be
there.
I am that I am.
And it's such a beautiful.
You want to talk about ablanket at night?
You?
Speaker 3 (17:12):
know selfish plug there.
We did the whole Gossconsistency episode and it just
shows you there even his name.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
This is one of the things that, philosophically,
I've probably spent one of themost amount of time on, because
I find this to be the core ofeverything.
Yeah, literally the core ofeverything.
Like he says, I am, that I am,which, again, that has different
translations.
I'm reading a couple othertranslations that are out there.
I am who I am.
I will become what I choose tobecome is another one.
(17:41):
I will be what I will be isanother one.
That's good, and one that Ilike.
I create whatever I create.
Okay, and last, I am theexisting one, yep, and I love
that this is so deep.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
You know why I love that so much?
Because I think when we speakabout, when we think about a
personal God, we want God to bethe way we want God to be.
And there's first of all, whenwe think about relationships.
That's the tough thing aboutrelationships.
You know I'm married, so youknow me and my wife.
Sometimes that's the toughthing about relationships.
You know I'm married, so youknow me and my wife.
Sometimes, well, the toughthing is I can't control her.
(18:21):
I can't whatever.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Not that I want to control her but, like you know,
she can't control you, she can'tcontrol me.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
And two people that you kind of have sometimes.
And when we talk about personalGod, I want God to do what I
want him to do when I want himto do it and say and speak to me
how I want it.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
It's so hard not to quote Talladega Nights right now
.
Oh, sorry.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
And then so hearing that and hearing the different
ways of kind of interpretationof that here I am, what is that?
Here I am, I am what I am andit's like he's going to come the
way he's going to come andthat's the way God is and we
have to be accepting of that andthat's how we could grow in our
relationship and we let go ofthe control that we want for God
.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
Yeah, this is going to get deep, so bear with me for
a second.
I think that when we talkingabout I am what I am, you have
to think we always talk aboutGod being bigger than we can
imagine.
Right, and it's easy for us.
We kind of have to likepersonify God because that's the
way that we see him.
And when you do that, javi,like you said, you have
expectations for him.
You want him to show up in acertain way.
(19:24):
But if God is the, the universecreator, the force behind all
forces, the action, the reaction, the cause, the effect, the
connection to all things, thething that keeps all the energy
and the momentum that keeps lifemoving, that is far bigger than
(19:44):
anything that we're talkingabout here.
When we're looking at a person,right and I am what I am means
just that I am everything.
I am not the physicalmanifestation of the thing that
you love.
I'm not the food, I'm not theperson you love, I'm not the car
you drive, I'm not the woodthat you have to build your
house.
I am the force that made thosethings happen at all.
(20:07):
I am not you, I am the breath,I'm the reason you can breathe
at all.
And when you stop and take alook.
In fact, I was at a Bible studylast night.
We were kind of like touchingon this subject.
And it's not the car that youdrive that gets you to work that
you should be thankful for.
It's the fact that you have abreath in your lungs and the
heartbeat in your heart thateven allows you to wake up to do
(20:28):
it and, stepping even furtherdown that rabbit hole, it's the
fact that you have enough energyin your brain to be aware and
conscious of any of this stuff.
That's where God lives.
God is in the consciousness ofthe universe.
He's the maker and the creatorof all things.
When you take a moment torealize how big, how vast, how
(20:49):
powerful, how big, how vast, howpowerful, how awe-inspiring it
is that every molecule in thisuniverse hit every other
molecule and knocked into everyother molecule and connected
with every molecule to createthe things that have been
created.
To create the things that werecreated to ultimately mean that
I'm going to be able to sit hereright now and say a word and
you're able to understand it Wow.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
Yeah, to understand it.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Wow, yeah, love it.
Unbelievable, like gigantic,enormous, incredible, vast.
There's no words for it.
Right, and this is what I am.
What I am, yeah, I am all thatyou could ever think of, and
billions and trillions of timesmore.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Yeah, yeah, and it's okay that we can't grasp that.
We're human.
We will never grasp the size,the scope, no, everything you
just laid down.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
It's impossible right , we can't, but it's important
to have the context of it right.
And this is the thing when yourealize how vast that is, it
finally gives you context forhow vast you aren't.
And this is the reason why Ihave to be humble in my life and
I can't live my life for mebecause little, teeny,
insignificant me can't possiblyknow enough to make good
(22:00):
decisions, can't possibly knowenough to choose right over
wrong every time.
Can't you know what I?
Speaker 3 (22:06):
mean.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
And so, and so it's that humility that I have to
have in realizing myrelationship in contrast to god
that allows me to truly respectgod, to come with that sense of
reverence that we talked about.
Yeah, and when I have thatsense of reverence now, I'm
rightly aligned with god,because I see how big yeah
that's what I always mentioned.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
I always mentioned like, yeah, you know, god is
infinite and we're just fine,we're finite, super finite.
God is infinite and we'refinite, we're small, we're this
little speck, you know.
And once we understand, that,relationship rose in a sense we
could have a better relationship, we could live in unison in
(22:45):
that way with God.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
But the personal relationship that he's having
with us is he knows how he canunderstand exactly how large he
is.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
It's not a, it's not a one-way street, correct he?
Speaker 1 (22:56):
we know how big he is , but he also knows how small we
are and he knows how much weneed, and he still chooses to be
with us and then the I'm goingto do a really quick fast
forward in the story of moses,because you have moses who's at
the burning bush top of themountain.
He's having this conversationwith God.
Fast forward to through all ofEgypt.
He goes to Egypt, everythinghappens, they leave Egypt, they
(23:18):
come back and then he gets the10 commandments.
And what he's getting yeah,where he's getting the 10
commandments is on top of theexact same mountain the same
mountain, yeah, he's come
Speaker 2 (23:27):
full circle got.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Yep, god has put him full circle.
He goes.
Where you met me is whereyou're going to learn about me,
where I'm giving you the law,where I'm going to be with you,
where I'm going.
He is going full circle in therelationship and with us.
That's really comforting, alsobecause there are times where we
feel like, hey, I, I've met youhere.
I have this feeling.
(23:49):
Life happens.
It sometimes goes away.
I have doubt.
I have desert, I have, you know, uh, the fear of where the next
food's coming from.
I fear of my enemies, but by atmy back it just it.
You know, life creeps up, yeah,and then, at the very end of
that, god still meets us exactlywhere he is, where we are, and
(24:11):
it's full circle and it goes.
He's always there.
I am what I am.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
It reminds me back Agreed, what we were talking
about before, with the wholepersonal and just kind of like
God and and how to approach himand stuff like that.
I think the 10 commandments isjust that.
I think it's we've we.
We are made to yearn fordiscipline, we just are.
We want to be free and we arefree in many ways.
But discipline helps us to grow, helps us to cultivate, it
(24:37):
helps us to build relationshipswith God, especially in that way
.
Sometimes people look at rulesand it's kind of like, oh my God
, but God is personal, he's alsothere, loving and all this
other stuff.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Well, I think the personal relationship with God
is how we create a betterversion of ourselves, because I
know I'm not capable of runningmy own life well, but when I
have that personal relationshipwith God and I have my prayer
life right with God and Iunderstand my place is very,
very low on the totem poleversus God and I keep my eyes
(25:11):
towards God and I try to actmore like God, I'm going to end
up being better.
I'm going to end up beingbetter, not because I'm better,
but because he's making mebetter and yeah, the thing about
that.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
you sparked the thing in my head right now, in my
mind.
You know you're talking aboutlife.
Life is we don't do life alone,meaning you could do life alone
and be alone, but there'severything that's happening
around us.
That's happening as well, like.
I'll give you an example, inthe sense of things are
happening.
We have to deal with people atthe grocery store, we have to
(25:45):
deal with circumstances thathappens to our life, and how do
we approach those things withouthaving some kind of direction,
you know approach to approachingthose things.
You know I'm not trying to veeroff too much, but you made me
think about that.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
I think this is right , I mean this is right, though,
like again, the idea is that Iam insufficient in my own will
and in my own knowledge.
Will and in my own knowledge,and on a daily basis, by being
closer to God, by having thatpersonal relationship which he
offers me.
It's just like having a supportsystem of people around me,
(26:18):
because he's telling me theright thing to do and when I
start going the wrong way, hegoes.
Nope, not that way.
Now, granted, I do want to segueinto.
I don't think that Christianitycan be a solo relationship or
an only personal relationship,because that's not how this
works.
Like we are still flawedcharacters and we live in our
own heads with if we live in ourown heads, we're going to end
up in the wrong place, and Ithink that the importance of
(26:39):
what Moses is being called to dois he isn't being called to
have a personal relationship andstay on top of that mountain by
himself.
He's being called to go backinto Egypt to collect his people
, to reinvest what God is givinghim into those people, and then
all of them keep themselves andlook what happens when they
leave Egypt.
The minute he goes up to thetop to go get those 10
(27:03):
commandments you talked about,those people fell apart.
They created an idol becausethey couldn't wait a couple of
days to figure out what to do,and they created this idol.
And so this is again.
It turns into a great storyabout how the personal
relationship that God isoffering you is for the benefit
of you, but also so that you canbenefit others.
That's good.
That's exactly what I wastrying to get at.
(27:23):
Yeah, and then once you benefitthose others.
Now they can benefit you backand this is where you get this
really beautiful cycle ofcommunity.
And a community who believestogether holds one another
accountable.
And that accountability I thinkaccountability in our society
today has a negative connotation, but accountability is what we
all need, right?
We all need the accountabilityto say that I'm on the right
(27:46):
track.
I'm staying on the right track.
If you guys were to see megoing in the wrong direction,
you would tell me hey, look, youshould probably pray about that
, or you should probably do this.
Or hey, why don't you come withme to something else to not do
those things?
Like it's all related, but thepersonal relationship is the
beginning of it all.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Yeah, and I think just you know, this is one of
those episodes where feelingjust convicted, just to recap
really quickly, and you knowthere's a lot here, and we're
talking about personalrelationships.
I'm kind of looking at it going.
You know, we have a story herewhere somebody was not looking
for God.
God reached down and startedthe conversation, initiated it.
(28:22):
So, yes, I love God.
Knowing that God initiated thatlove first, I responded with
love.
God has reached out to all ofus.
We are responding with thatcommunication back that love
back, and it's for many purposesit's for our own symbolism,
it's for relationships that wehave in our lives.
But if we answer the call oflove, if we answer the
(28:44):
communication, the personalrelationship God's looking to
have with us, as massive as itseems, as huge as things that
we're not going to be able toever, ever understand, um, we
just have to know that he isthere, he is talking to us and
he's showing us love and we justneed to respond with such just
talk back and show love back.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Yeah, yeah, I totally agree.
You know the.
The other thing I think isreally interesting, when you
mentioned the idea that he goesback to the same mountain again,
is I've mentioned there's.
There's an asian, uh quote thatI there's actually, I think
even even earlier, related toheraclitus, and he says a man
never steps in the same rivertwice, and I think this is the
(29:26):
other beautiful thing about godis like moses started on that
mountain, not connected to God,and later he comes back to that
same mountain, totally changed,yep.
So even you know I think that'swhat what God does.
He doesn't change the place, hechanges the person.
That's great Right and and he'schanging the person of Moses in
(29:47):
the same way that if he'scalling you with his burning
bush today, he's going to changeyou as well.
He's going to you, may.
You may live in the same house,you may have the same family,
you may have the same friends,you may do the same things,
roughly, or, but you're going tobe changed.
Yeah, If you accept that calland if you accept the, the love
and the, the love and the andthe personal relationship with.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
Jesus, yeah, and I think you're.
You're really, I mean not tonot to like dabble in heretical
thing, but like I think yourpersonal relationship with you,
with God, is your personalrelationship, meaning he's going
to speak to you in a certainway.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
In a way that you need to be spoken to, that you
need to be spoken to.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
You know, and and I think that's a beautiful thing,
because for me to hear it, andthe way David maybe hears God in
that way or God has called himto do, I probably won't be able
to do, or for you, jason, hecalls to me in my abilities you
could say, or whatever I coulddo, or whatever he speaks to me,
how I could understand whathe's saying to me.
(30:44):
It's personal.
I don't think it's heretical atall.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
I think we see that in the Bible over and over and
over again.
Yeah, for sure.
I mean you say God reaching out.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Well, even Paul, you know Paul, and when he's
speaking to the Romans he speaksdifferently than when he speaks
to Hebrews.
I mean, he literally changes.
He uses their philosophers inHebrews.
I think it is Right, his points, and I think it's really
interesting that that's there,that it doesn't have to be the
same.
Like you said, it doesn't haveto be the same.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
We're going to speak about that in a second About you
know, Is it really a secondImaginizing?
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Well, we'll talk about it.
Well, guys, anything else youwant to add to this topic?
Speaker 1 (31:23):
No, I think that if, right now, you're sitting at
home and you are feelingconvicted and you're having this
conversation and you feel thetug on your heart and you hear
God speaking to you and you wantthis personal relationship with
God I think you know we set itfor here which is just
everyone's going to have theirown version of their
relationship with God as far ashow he calls out to them.
You have to speak back, youhave to show him love, the way
(31:44):
he's showing you, and if you'restill confused or you feel like,
hey, I was put in thiscommunity and, and god wants me
to talk more about this, we'rehere, so open up and have a
conversation with us, talk to uson our socials.
Uh, let's talk about it.
You know, this is one of thosemoments where you know god is
really trying to have a personalrelationship with us, which,
(32:05):
with everything that jason laiddown, really should astound you.
Somebody who, who can doeverything that God has done,
wants to have a relationshipwith us, and we can see this
being true and lived out in theBible.
You know, this is an amazingthing.
So I just I paid everything.
I just said I'm going to stepback and All right, guys.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Well, look, that was great, that was really great,
and if this podcast is yourburning bush, we'd love to hear
about it.
Amen, thanks a lot, guys.
Socials you know how to get ahold of us.
David's got a discussion groupon Facebook.
Facebook discussion group andplease, with the subscribes and
the likes and the ratings arereally, really helpful for us
(32:45):
guys.
We'd appreciate that and, asalways, we appreciate your time.
Thanks a lot.
See, you have a great day.
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