June 11, 2025 • 36 mins
Pastor Dan Sutherland brings 50 years of ministry experience to this profound conversation on the true nature of discipleship. With disarming simplicity, he explains that discipleship isn't about mastering religious knowledge – it's about authentic relationships that transform us from the inside out.
"Take God more seriously and don't take yourself so seriously," Pastor Dan advises, setting the tone for a discussion that dismantles common barriers to discipleship. His refreshing perspective challenges the notion that you must be spiritually "advanced" to disciple others. Using the analogy of school grades, he explains how someone just ahead in their faith journey (a "fifth grader") can effectively guide someone newer (a "third grader") because they understand exactly what they're experiencing.
The conversation explores how Jesus himself modeled discipleship not through formal teaching sessions but by doing life together with his followers. Pastor Dan notes that Jesus taught more through stories and parables than Scripture quotations – not diminishing the importance of biblical knowledge but placing it in proper perspective as a tool rather than the goal.
This episode offers particular encouragement for those feeling inadequate about discipling others. "Knowledge equals responsibility," Pastor Dan explains. Once you learn something about following Christ, you're responsible both to live it out and to pass it on. This creates a beautiful chain of spiritual growth extending through generations.
Whether you're new to faith or have been following Christ for decades, this conversation will equip you with a freeing, practical understanding of discipleship that anyone can participate in. The transformative power of doing life together with God-centered purpose might be exactly what your spiritual journey needs right now.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Boundless Bible.
My name is David Shapiro, hey,I'm Javi Marquez and I'm Jason
Holloway.
Welcome guys.
How's it going?
Awesome, Very excited today.
Very excited Today.
I'm excited because we have avery special guest.
Today's guest is someone Ideeply admire, not just for what
(00:23):
he's done, but for who he is.
Pastor Dan Sutherland is akingdom-minded leader with a
heart that beats for the gospeland a vision that stretches
across nations.
He's planted churches both herein the US and overseas, but
more than that, he's poured intohis life, into mentoring
pastors and church planners whocarry the same fire.
Dan has a rare gift he meetspeople exactly where they are,
(00:45):
connects deeply and somehowleaves you walking away feeling
seen, stretched and stirred todo more for the kingdom.
He lives out Paul's wordsbecoming all things to all
people so that, by all means,some might be saved.
If you ever needed clarity,courage and confirmation in your
calling, this conversation willgive you just that.
Welcome Dan.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Thank you.
I'm kind of excited to meetthis guy, whoever he is.
It's quite an introduction.
David, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you, javi, appreciate it,so excited for this.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Why don't we just start off kind of telling a
little bit about yourself andwho you are and your journey
with Christ?
Speaker 3 (01:19):
A Texican, was raised in a Christian home.
Not sure that we were all in onfollowing Christ, but we were
church folks and we werebelieving folks and did not find
my own way to Christ until Iwas a 17-year-old senior.
(01:40):
In high school my youth pastorled me to Christ, which was
amazing.
I think she was the first realChrist follower I'd ever met and
I kind of came out of thatexperience just wanting to
pastor people and help othersfind their way to Jesus.
And that's what I've been doingthe last 50 years One wife, two
(02:03):
kids, seven grandkids.
Blessed to be back in SouthFlorida, god's good and we're
blessed to have you back here,Absolutely so.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
50 years.
You've been doing this for 50years in the industry.
Yes, sir, Just an off the cuffquestion is you know, what is
one thing you've learned in 50years that you did not expect to
learn when you?
Speaker 3 (02:25):
started.
Oh wow, there'd be hundreds ofthose things.
I think one of the things I'vehad to learn, david, is to take
God more seriously and not takemyself as seriously.
Oh wow, you know, to lighten upon me and to tighten up on him
has been a really good thing,and particularly around just who
(02:47):
Jesus is and who he wants to bein our lives.
That's been the fun part.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
That's awesome.
Yeah, I'm excited for this.
I I just love how you kind ofmake things that are complicated
.
It makes it so simple, easy todigest, easy to just kind of
like take practice and and moveforward.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
So and make practical right.
Yeah, you can use.
Every time I walk out of one ofyour sermons, it's like this is
something I can use today.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Well, thank you guys.
I think I'm a simpleton so Ihave to do that.
You know, I need to put thecookies on the bottom shelf so I
can reach them.
That's so good, that's funnythat helps.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
One of the things that I've heard you speak on
that is near and dear to all ofour hearts but definitely we
know it's to yours isdiscipleship.
We've heard you speak ondiscipleship quite a bit.
Why don't we just kind of gothrough the basics of what
discipleship means and then wecan go from there?
Some of the passages that I'veheard you speak about.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Thank you, bud.
I would love to do that.
I think we have to start withwhat's the definition of a
disciple?
So for me I've wrestled withthis some over the years but to
me a disciple is someone whodoes what Jesus does and obeys
what Jesus teaches.
So you're trying to followJesus in doing what he does, but
(04:00):
you're also really payingattention to what Scripture says
.
And we ask the questions allthe time at the church what's
Jesus teaching?
What are you doing about it?
So to me, that's the heart of adisciple.
So if I could get thatheartbeat, I'm well on my way.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Which leads right into 1 Corinthians 11.1, which
is Be imitators of me as I am ofChrist.
And that's exactly what youjust said.
But what does that passagereally mean to you?
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Well, in the simplest English I know that passage
means monkey see, monkey do yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
As simple as that.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
That's what the passage means.
It's I see what it means tofollow Christ and I do what it
means to follow Christ and Paulwas able to say that to the
Corinthians because he wassincerely trying to follow Jesus
.
He didn't have it perfect, buthe was ahead of them.
So it's kind of the conceptthat a fifth grader can disciple
(05:00):
a third grader and a middleschooler can disciple an
elementary kid and a middleschooler can disciple an
elementary kid and a highschooler can disciple a middle
schooler.
Sometimes the best person todisciple use the one that's just
ahead of you, not the onethat's you know 10 years ahead.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
And I love that you you said that, I heard you say
that before and to me thatopened up so much to with
discipleship and leadership in,uh, just in our walk, and I
think to me that's I could takeownership in that right, me
being maybe a fifth grader,maybe not a 10th grader, yeah, I
can still teach somebody elsethat's in third grade, second
(05:38):
grade, and play my part in in mywalk to getting you know, to
the higher grades, or maybe justcontinue to deepen in my
relationship with Jesus Christand my walk.
I could do that, anyone coulddo that, and I think, yeah, now
Right, and I love that you, thatconcept just opened up my walk
and my sense of my purpose andwhat God calls us to do, which
(06:01):
is the Great Commission, right,I think it helps me too, javi,
we're a little bit afraid of I'mnot deep enough yet, or I'm not
far enough yet, or I haven'tlearned enough yet, or I haven't
arrived yet.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
But again the concept is there's somebody ahead of me
, yeah, they disciple me.
There's somebody behind me, Idisciple me, there's somebody
behind me, I disciple them.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
Yeah, it eliminates the, the, the.
I'm not talented enough, I'mnot good enough, so I'm not
going to do it.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Yeah, it definitely disarms your, your inaccuracies.
That's what it does it disarmsit and you get to be part of the
kingdom story.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Well, I mean, that's kind of like the whole Christian
faith, right?
We always are waiting untilwe're good enough to approach
God, and this is one of thosetimes where you can really
practically see that.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
I don't need to be ready.
I think we don't understandthat the disciples were sent out
by Jesus, two by two, afterthey've been following him four
months, right Four months.
Not four years, not 40 yearsfour months.
And then Jesus leaves andleaves the whole thing in their
hand after three years, right,yeah, so these guys weren't
(07:11):
ready.
That's it For what they weredoing but they were ahead
spiritually of where the peoplethat they were leading were.
So fifth grader leading thethird grader.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
That's it, and it's so consistent with who God is
right Again, God doesn't waitfor you to be good enough to
come to him.
God says come to me as you are,I will help you grow and you
will help others grow.
And it's this beautifulsymmetry to the whole Christian
faith.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
Yeah, I think there's a lot there too, right?
I mean, you'll probably go intoit as far as maybe, how to
disciple, how to go out.
I think in discipleship,evangelism is involved in all
that right and just kind ofsharing your faith and all that.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
I know that when you look at 1 Corinthians 11.1, when
Paul says be like me, who islike Jesus, a lot of people
actually took that as him beingvain.
Is him saying you have?
Speaker 4 (08:00):
to be like me.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Yeah, yeah, but he's not.
And what he's saying I thinkthis is a beautiful thing is
anybody can be a disciple.
Of a disciple, anybody can giveknowledge and can share their
life, their testimony, theirknowledge of Christ with
somebody else.
And I think that that's abeautiful part of it and I think
that Paul was very wise in howhe formulated that sentence.
(08:22):
The other thing that leads intois you know, 2 Timothy 2.2,.
This now is when discipleshipis being passed on.
You see multiple people,multiple generations in this
statement.
Where you know a disciple, it'snot just hey, I'm discipled,
I'm a student, and then it endswhat happens after that?
Now, you've learned a littlebit, you feel like you're a
(08:43):
second or a fifth grader.
What happens after that?
Well, you've learned a littlebit, you feel like you're a
second or a fifth grader.
What happens?
Speaker 3 (08:45):
after that.
Well, to me, knowledge equalsresponsibility.
So the minute I learn something, david, I'm now responsible A
to live it and B to pass it on.
That's what discipleship is.
So the verse you're referringto in Timothy there are four
generations in that verse.
(09:06):
I think there's a fifth one,but the four that are in the
verse are Paul says the thingsyou've heard and learned from me
.
Pass these on to others whowill be able to teach others as
well.
So you got Paul to Timothy, toTimothy's disciple, to Timothy's
disciple's disciple.
(09:27):
If you go back to the early bookof Acts, barnabas discipled
Paul.
So you got five generations inthis picture.
So at the time Paul wasdiscipled by Barnabas, barnabas
was ahead of him, made sense.
Timothy wasn't even in thepicture yet, but now, years
later, timothy's in the picturewhen that verse is written in
(09:50):
Timothy.
Timothy's now a young pastor.
He's having to disciple people.
I guess it's this idea for me.
We are all children and we areall grandchildren and we all
have kids and we all havegrandkids and I'm talking about
spiritually Right, right.
So I look back at the men thatdiscipled me and realize
(10:11):
somebody discipled them.
I'm 69 now.
I've lived long enough to seemultiple generations of people
I've discipled.
That's the fun part You'rebuilding the family of God.
That's what discipleship is.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Yeah you have a way of putting things down that that
opens people's minds, and I'mgoing to try to see if I can do
that to you.
There might be a sixthgeneration in there, and the
sixth one is if you look atoriginal judaism, this you know,
the discipleship program wasn'ta christian notion.
Yeah, jewish people did this,where the rabbi would take on
(10:45):
students and they would teachthem.
And not only would the studentswant to learn the knowledge, but
they try to become like therabbi, exactly.
Um, it's part of it, and paul'srabbi was gamaliel.
Yeah, and he was somebody whopaul was supposed to.
Now Paul was way more extreme.
Gamaliel was actually somebodywho was known for being more
(11:08):
moderate and being morerespectful, especially to people
outside of Judaism, but he wasa highly respected Sanhedrin.
He was actually the grandson ofHillel, who is one of the
greatest sages, but he actuallystarted Paul in that learning,
so there might even be a sixthgeneration in there.
The reality is David.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
If you're talking about 2000 years of Christianity
, there are hundreds ofgenerations.
It's exponential.
You won't even be able todiagram this till we're in
heaven itself.
But this is why Jesus' commandto go make disciples is the
central command.
It's the idea of what I'vetaught you.
(11:49):
You now have the responsibilityA to live and B to teach
somebody else.
That's the fun part, yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Yeah, what would you say for somebody out there who
is studying the Bible?
They feel like they're doingthe right thing.
Hey, I pray.
When I wake up in the morningI'm reading my Bible, I'm
listening to worship music, I'mtrying to live a more
Christ-centered life.
But they get to the point where, hey, we know we're supposed to
go and evangelize or go andspread, and they're a little bit
(12:17):
nervous.
They're a little bit.
They're not feeling like that'stheir strong suit, they're
feeling a little inadequate andthey're kind of keeping it to
themselves.
What would some advice you'dgive to them.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
I think understanding the context of of the great
commission helps me here, david,we read it as go make disciples
.
Right, it's a little bit moreof as you go make disciples.
This is not the idea of I'msending you to South Africa to
(12:49):
make disciples or I'm sendingyou to New York City to make
disciples.
It's more the idea of in yourlife today, make disciples,
teach, baptize, share the gospel.
That's the idea.
So for me it becomes a littleless formidable if I understand
that Jesus simply wants me todisciple the people in my
(13:13):
circles, my neighbors, myfriends, guys I hang out with
people that I run into.
That's who I'm responsible for.
That's God's plan for reachingthe world.
He scatters us all over theworld, but he uses us each in
our own locality.
So to me I'm a little lessintimidated by that get up and
(13:35):
go thing If I read it as hey,lord, today I'm willing to share
you with.
Whoever you let me cross pathswith, just put them in my path.
Yeah, whoever you let me crosspaths with, just put them in my
path.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Yeah yeah, I don't recall the name.
I apologize, but there wassomebody who is responsible for
discipleship and who's discipledI mean thousands and thousands
of people who is an extremeintrovert, and one of the things
he told me is I don't need todisciple a thousand people, I
disciple one person who's anextrovert, and they can then go
(14:08):
out.
And so your reach is not basedjust on your own hands, it is
discipling somebody you know.
You start looking at some ofthese major evangelists.
People have been out there,have spoken to millions of
people.
They had a teacher who justtaught them.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Well, you only have to plant one seed to plant a
whole field, right, I mean it'sit.
It multiplies itself.
Speaker 4 (14:26):
Yeah, multiplication, yeah, it multiplies.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
And so one of the things that I'm interested in
again, I kind of have adifferent angle from all these
guys, because I'm still freshlyback into the faith and I'm kind
of relearning what it means asan adult, having learned it as a
child, and one of the thingsthat I'm kind of doing right now
is just realizing that one ofthe best ways I can disciple is
just by being a better versionof myself than I was before.
And when I'm.
When I do that and people knowwho I used to be and they know
who I am now, they start askingquestions.
(14:53):
And they start asking questions.
You know why you seem a littlebit more happy, or you know that
used to really frustrate you.
I usually get ticked off aboutthat.
You know five years ago what'sgoing on now and I find that's a
really easy way to likeintroduce.
Well, you know.
You know, like you said,sometimes people get
uncomfortable sharing it, butit's very easy when people come
to you for it yeah, sometimesthey could.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
I think we see that in the bible too.
I would say like, sometimes,when you do go to your locale,
sometimes people would rejectyou because they know you as
that way in the past or whateverit is, and we see that with
like uh, I, uh I don't know theverse, but I think Jesus talked
about um in your hometown theleast respect what is that I
forgot.
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
I don't know, profit without honor in their hometown.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
Right, and you know and and we see that I think
there's a way of going about itand um, but I liked the, the the
easy approach of that.
Like, hey, start with whereyou're at, start with your
friends, start with yourneighbors and just open up about
what's God done in your life.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Yeah, I think that's it.
Let me ask you, because youknow there is also this question
of biblical knowledge versusyour own testimony.
If you're going to disciplesomebody, where do you think the
best way to get the informationis to disciple?
Are you discipling someonebased on what Jesus has done for
you?
Based on biblical knowledge?
Based on both, yes.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
Right, it's got to be both.
Okay, yeah To me.
If it's just knowledge, david,then I am in an
information-based discipleship.
Discipleship at its best isrelationship-based.
Discipleship at its best isrelationship based, it's me and
you doing life together,learning about Jesus together,
(16:32):
learning new truths together,praying for each other, applying
them Is.
Is the Bible knowledge part, apiece of it?
Without a doubt, for sure it's.
It's a main tool.
Is it the goal?
No, right, it's the tool.
Is it the goal?
No, right, it's the tool.
We worship the living Word ofGod, not the written Word of God
(16:53):
.
Now, I grew up in a church.
I came pretty close toworshiping the written Word of
God.
It was about Bible knowledge.
It was about quoting Scripture,it was about understanding all
the eschatology and all thehistory and, honestly, it was
dry bones.
It did not have life for meuntil I found that relationship
(17:20):
with Christ as a senior in highschool.
So I believe that the bestdiscipleship is I'm going to
walk with you through your liferight now.
We're going to walk togetherand we're going to talk together
about what's Jesus teaching usand what are we doing about it.
And, by the way, studying thisbook together will be a big
piece.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
I love what you say about relationship, because one
of the first people I talked toin the church about all this
stuff was you and you know youand, and both pastor Eric also
said you know you both havingknown it or not known it you
both said the same thing, whichis you got a lot of information
but you really got to find thatrelationship.
Yeah, and one of the thingsthat, like an analogy that I
used I might have even used inanother podcast is that the, the
bible and and relationship withGod is a lot like if you read a
(18:04):
book about basketball and howyou play it, you'd understand it
.
If you went to a basketballgame, you'd understand it a
whole lot differently.
And if you played the game,you'll understand it in a whole
different way because it's apart of your life, it's a part
of your action, part of youremotion.
You learn the details.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
So I think I could teach basketball from a book or
from a bench as a coach Rightfrom a book or from a bench as a
coach.
But I think if I truly want toexperience basketball with
somebody else, we're both on thefloor.
That's discipleship.
We're both on the floor.
I'm not just the coach, I'm notjust the person in the stands,
(18:40):
I'm not just the historiangiving you the information.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
I'm on the floor with you and you have to be the
person they're passing the ballto, and you got to be
comfortable enough to pass itback.
I mean, it's a.
It's a.
It's a very relational thing,and David and I have talked
about this a lot.
We read a million books andalways throwing them back and
forth to each other.
But one of the things that Irealized the other night as I
was reading is like I love thesebooks, I enjoy these books, but
I don't think any of thesebooks have brought me closer to
(19:04):
God.
I think they've filled the partof me I need filled, but what
fills my heart of God is beingin it for long enough to realize
why it all matters in the firstplace.
You know, being able to prayabout it and having an answer
from that prayer, or listeningto a worship song and having it
hit me in some deep place, sodeep I didn't even know it was
there.
And it's interesting, for Idon't know if everybody in this
(19:25):
world is so academic like someof the people here on this
podcast are, but it's importantfor me to remember the academics
are a part of me, but it's notthe only part and in fact, it's
not the most important part, andso this relationship is really
important.
I think discipleship is aboutthat too.
Speaker 4 (19:38):
No, I can relate to that.
I think when I first came toChrist and I wanted to know more
, I was diving into the books.
I was diving into you know justeverything about it and I even
at times Bible-thumped peopleand just kind of threw these
scriptures at people and justkind of lost relationships.
In that it was really sad.
But as I continue to grow in myfaith and finding a church like
(20:01):
ours and stuff like that, I'velearned that the walk matters
probably more and the life anddoing life for others and just
truly loving others, um, inChrist, and then you know really
having patience and reallyhaving to to share what's gone
in your life but also trying toraise them up and just dive
deeper with Christ and seekingGod first.
(20:22):
Um has taught me a big thingabout relationships and what God
wants for us in, in, in ourkingdom, you know, in the
kingdom.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Pastor Dan, what do you think some of the biggest
challenges people have withdiscipleship are?
Speaker 3 (20:34):
I think the biggest challenge is we don't understand
discipleship because we haven'tbeen discipled.
Oh, okay, it's.
It's kind of like marriage.
Yeah, you can study it, you canread about it, you can study it
, you can read about it, you canobserve it.
Until you're married, it's kindof hard to know fully what's
going on.
So I think many of our churchesif I could just go for it here
(21:00):
are all about Sunday morning orthey're all about Bible classes
or they're all about going upthrough a certain system of
learning, maybe not necessarilythat much about making disciples
Right, right.
So I think the thing that holdsus up the most is we just
(21:20):
haven't experienced it.
Once you have, you're hooked.
Yeah, I mean you guys arediscipling each other through
this podcast For sure you knowthat's happening.
You're sharper because you dothis together.
I've been thinking about that.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Still pretty dull, but I'm sharper.
Speaker 4 (21:37):
I've been thinking about that lately.
I think having a conversationwith you maybe earlier on this
year, and just having theperspective of multiplication as
a, as a, as a goal, as a, as apurpose, um means so much more
to me now in in my walk, ratherthan, you know, feeding myself
and learning more and just kindof doing that and just really
being well, what doesmultiplication looks like?
(21:58):
What does go and makediscipleship disciples look like
?
And that's truly, yeah, Doinglife, life to life.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
But he did not disciple the 12 by saying, hey
guys, let's work our way throughthe book of Isaiah.
There's no place in the threeyears where he pulls out the
scroll of Isaiah and says, okay,let's look at the first scroll.
What does this Hebrew word mean?
What is this about?
That's a great point.
He's not against that, but it'snot what he does.
(22:34):
Yeah, they do life together andin the doing of life they
disciple each other.
They talk about what's godteaching you.
What are you doing about it?
Jesus taught more parables.
He quoted more parables than hequoted verses of scripture.
Interesting, told lots ofstories.
Yep, uh, I'm not down onscripture.
(22:55):
Don't hear that.
I'm as up on scriptures anybodyI know.
But I have seen some people inchurches that know scripture
really well, but they're stillmean.
Son of a guns.
Yeah, the character hasn't beenchanged right.
So is discipleship working?
I Maybe not in that setting, soto me that's the fun.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
I think there's a logistical problem with being,
you know, with not disciplingright.
Like Jesus couldn't reach everyhuman being on his own right.
And some churches, like yousaid and it's not an accusation
or anything else, but somechurches are the leadership of
the team is who you need to payattention to, it's who you have
to connect with, it's who youhave to integrate with.
Leadership of the team is whoyou need to pay attention to.
It's who you have to connectwith.
It, too, you have to integratewith.
You got 10,000 people alltrying to deal with those five
people.
You know that's going to be.
You're going to have some, somebottlenecks, but you know Jesus
(23:42):
, like you said, four months hehad two of them going out at a
time, three years, it's on youguys.
And then it was expansion byexponentialism And's like I
don't need to be the head ofanything.
I'm just an arm, you know, oneof many, many arms in in a much
larger body, and that's bothfreeing and a sense of
(24:04):
responsibility.
It's both Right, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
I think that's part of having you know.
When we're talking about havingsomebody you know above you who
is discipling you, somebodybelow you you're discipling.
I think that also keeps youhonest.
You're looking at somebody,you're discipling, and you need
to make sure you're at your bestand doing the right thing for
them.
Yeah, for sure.
And the same thing, you'rekeeping the person above you
accountable, you know, a lot oftimes.
That's why they say studentscan teach the teacher, and
(24:25):
there's no better way to learnthan to teach.
Absolutely.
One of the other things thathappens and God does this, and
he's brilliant at this is heputs things in place in such a
way where you have Paul, which Imentioned.
He was more extreme than whohad taught him, um, and and what
ended up happening?
Is God, what he does, is heuses what is quote unquote evil.
(24:46):
So you have this man who ispersecuting all of the
Christians, who was doing allthis evil, but he's doing it
with this conviction um, changesit for good, and now he, with
this conviction um, changes itfor good, and now he has this
conviction for spreading thegospel.
Yeah, and it was only that typeof conviction and that type of
of gall to go out there thatneeded at that moment.
And god used that.
(25:06):
And I look at you know, listen,pastor dan is one of the people
who, when I started my journeyinto academics, I was meeting
with people who were collegeprofessors and part of academia,
and they were great people, butthey were.
Their focus was solely knowledge, right, and I was there and I
was like, no, this is where Ineed to be.
And then, at the time where Imet Pastor Dan, I was ready to
(25:29):
release some of that and realizethat the academics wasn't
everything, that there is thepart of the emotion, the
relationship, the testimony.
God did something in me thathad nothing to do with what I
was reading on a paper and andthat was just that time.
Again, god's timing was likehey, here's this person who has
this education, who has thisbackground, who has this
(25:51):
knowledge, and nobody would everknow it.
Um, because what he's going tolead from is he's going to lead
from a relationship, and it wasone of the most beautiful things
that I got to learn from you,just by being around you, not
even asking you to teach it, andthat's that doing the life
together, right, yeah, I meancan can you talk a little bit
more about that relationshipthing?
Speaker 2 (26:09):
I mean I'm, I'm getting, I'm starting to get
something I don't know if I everlike practically put into terms
before, but to get a betterrelationship with God.
You get to better relationshipwith people who follow God and
in watching their, their journey, you can then mold your journey
more.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
You do.
When the scripture talks aboutbad company corrupts good morals
, yeah, yeah, the flip side isalso true.
Good company helps produce goodmore.
Yeah, you become like thepeople you spend the most time
with, jason.
Yes, we just do.
Yes.
So if I can hang out with, dolife with, people that love
(26:49):
Jesus and are really going afterhim, that will help me to want
to do the same thing.
You guys have heard me tell thestory.
I have a third grade grandson.
He was third grade at the timethat was diagnosed with severe
dyslexia very bright, but sawall his words backwards and
(27:11):
scram.
So they got him in a new schoolwith a dyslexia expert at the
school, somebody that hadgraduate degrees in dyslexia
that could work with him.
She worked with him.
His parents worked with him.
The most effective person todisciple him as a third grader
was his fifth grade brother.
(27:32):
No way, because his fifth gradebrother could say I understand
what you're dealing with here,try this, try this, and
literally walked him throughthat.
Yeah.
So again, sometimes it's notsitting at the feet of a master
that changes your life.
It can.
Yeah, it's these relationshipswhere iron on iron, as the old
(27:56):
testament describes, where it'sabout the relationship.
If my relationship with god isthe goal, then these
relationships can help me getthere.
Yeah, yeah and vice versa yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
And again, it's interesting because I kept
hearing you have to haverelationship with god.
You have to relationship withgod and I'm like how do I do
that?
I'm reading the bible, I'mpraying, I'm doing these things,
but I'm not changing very much.
I'm getting to know him, butthat's not a personal
relationship.
And it's only been kind ofrecently, in Ava even maybe in
this moment, that I'm kind ofrealizing that how we get closer
to God is literally by seeinghim reflected in the people that
(28:30):
we're spending time with.
And also, side note, my dadused to tell me when I was a kid
you hang out with people belowyou, they'll pull you down.
You hang out with people aboveyou, they'll pull you up.
Oh wow.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Well, it seems to be true.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Same concept, less biblical, but same concept there
.
But it is true and that's whatI.
It wasn't because God didn'tcall me or because people didn't
call me, or because I didn'tcall me.
It was because I didn't have acommunity, I didn't have the
discipleship of the peoplearound me to bring me up and
instead I had people bringing medown, and it just.
These types of things are soimportant.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
Yeah, that's what I love about churches.
I think church is a good way tofind community with people that
are going through life justlike you and wanting to know God
a little bit further.
And I think those people ifanyone out there is really
struggling with going tochurches or finding a good
church, please go and try tofind a good church.
Churches are meant to shape you, to help you, to lift you, to
(29:31):
give you a community where youcould be able to lean on someone
on a practical level, ratherthan like searching it from
someone on the pulpit.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Sometimes it's hard to you know that's a strong
statement right there.
Rather than searching for yoursafety from someone in the
pulpits, search for your safetyand your knowledge.
Speaker 4 (29:45):
Yeah, seriously, I mean, it's you know it's kind of
hard to really I'm not.
I'm a wait to be discipledbecause I want the person on the
pulpit disciple because he'sthe one that knows.
No, there's other people aroundyou that going through same
thing you're going through.
You know and and could help youlift you up.
I love the fact that you justsaid, pastor dan, your, your
third grade, your fifth graderwas teaching your third grade
(30:05):
what it is is also the fifthgrade.
You said something there thatwas really key for me was the
fifth grader knows what you'regoing through because I just I
just went through that, ratherthan maybe somebody that was in
10th grade and going I'm alreadyabove what you're going through
, cause I just I just wentthrough that rather than maybe
somebody that was in 10th gradeand going.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
I'm already above what you're.
Speaker 4 (30:18):
I can't really see the little finite stuff that
you're going through, because II'm not thinking about that,
rather than I'm thinking aboutsomething else.
You know far from what you'rethinking about.
Wait, I'm in fifth grade, Iknow I went through that just
yesterday, so I know whereyou're going to that little
municipal thing.
So I think that's big Totallyand I think churches and
relationships are are huge inour faith and I hold tight to
(30:40):
that because relationships Ijust.
The more I read the Bible, themore I see that it's all about
relationships.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
It's funny because our again, I'm still new to this
, and three years ago, if youtold me I was going to have a
series of friends who were menthat we met with on a regular
basis, I would have told you noway, that's just.
That's not how our societyworks anymore.
Our society is not built aroundcommunities anymore, you know,
and and that's reallydetrimental to our society.
And it's funny, because now I'mthinking that there was this
(31:08):
meme.
You ever seen this meme thatthe greatest miracle that Jesus
ever, uh, ever, made come truewas the fact that he had 12
friends after the age of 30.
Speaker 4 (31:16):
I think I've seen that.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
I thought that was hysterical, but I mean it's true
, like the, the, the ability tohave community at this age, the
ability to be able to have agroup of people who I have a
covenantal you know relationshipwith.
You know it's not.
We don't just hang out to havefun, we hang out to talk about
stuff, and when things aren'tgoing good, we talk.
(31:38):
And when things are going good,we talk.
And that's not the relationshipthat most men and I don't know
about women, but that's not therelationship most men have after
the age of 30.
And so being able to do so in aGod-centered environment around
a God-centered philosophy isprobably the most valuable thing
.
Anybody who's listening to this, who doesn't have that, can get
themselves into.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
I'll say that you know, we talk about God and
Jesus, how they model everythingfor us, and this is what we're
looking at.
We're looking at what wasmodeled for us.
When I look at the 12 disciplesand I see how they were
discipled.
I even look at people whoweren't even part of Jesus.
And when you look at God andwhat he could have done, he
could have sent a slew of rabbisto go and teach everybody he
could have done.
Speaker 4 (32:17):
He could have snapped his fingers and everybody would
have already had it and what hedid was.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
you know we look at the, the timing at which jesus
was crucified.
You know this was done onpurpose and what it was is.
This is the holiday of passover.
This is where the pilgrimage Ithink about this a lot the
mandatory pilgrimage was for thejews to come back to Jerusalem,
so you have the most amount ofJewish people from all these
other nations there witnessingthe crucifixion of Jesus, and
(32:43):
they stayed because Shavuot wasnow seven weeks later, which is
the other pilgrimage, so they'realso seeing the resurrection.
Oh, I didn't know that.
Yes, so now you have all ofthese people who God has placed
there for relationship to thosenext 40 days I'm seeing.
I'm, yeah, and I'm seeing thecrucifixion.
I'm hearing about theresurrection, and now I'm
(33:05):
hearing this new preaching, and,and it's amazing that God had
created this for relationship.
He wanted people to be togetherat the same place at the same
time, and it wasn't.
Hey, you're going to be here tolisten to one person, one
master.
You're going to be there toshare this, to witness this
together.
Um, it's just one of thosethings where I'm going.
You know, God had it right fromthe beginning, Um, and and it's
(33:28):
funny that you know so manypeople today still don't get it
right.
We'd still understand it.
He's been doing it right for somany, you know, for so many
years.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
I imagine there's more stuff that you've learned
and forgotten in your life thanI'll ever learn.
I doubt that.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
There's a lot I have forgotten.
No doubt about that.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
But I, you know, I wonder, like I, a question,
maybe a kind of a selfishquestion, especially when I
first got back in.
When you really start being adisciple which which I give the
terminology of being anapprentice really right, Like
that's what you're trying to do.
You're trying to be like Christand one of the biggest things
that comes up when you try to belike Christ is, the closer you
get to being like Christ, themore far you realize you're from
ever being actually like Christ.
Do you find that people give upin that moment, or that they
(34:14):
have a crisis of faith in thatmoment when they realize that
they're just not there?
Like, what's your advice forsomebody who's trying to be a
disciple, trying to apprenticeto be like God, like Jesus, but
are having a hard time?
Speaker 3 (34:25):
I don't see as many people giving up because they
realize that it's unattainable,because I think what you also
get to see, jason and you'veseen it is you see the life
change in your own life.
So, yes, the closer you get toJesus, the more you realize how
(34:46):
far you are.
Yeah, it's the idea of walkinginto the light.
The more you're in the light,the more you see the shadow and
the darkness in your own soul.
But when I can look back at thelife change that has occurred,
if I had no other proof of thereality of Jesus other than the
(35:07):
way he's changed my life, that'senough.
I agree, the way he's changedmy daughter's life, my friend's
life, my grandson's life.
So the fun part to me is's life, my grandson's life.
So the fun part to me is, yes,I have more questions.
Yes, I realize how vast God isthe closer I get to him, but yes
, I'm impressed with what he'sdone.
(35:28):
That's it.
That's the counterbalance.
That's a beautiful answer.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Thank you, that's great.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
Well, listen, we can talk about this for days and
days and days.
Speaker 4 (35:37):
I kind of want to.
I don't really want to let.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Dan go, pastor Dan, I really appreciate you coming
out here and having thisconversation with us.
If you have questions, if youwant to get in touch with Pastor
Dan, dansatthelocalchurchcom iswhere you can get in touch with
him, and then you can also getin touch with us as well.
Is where you can get in touchwith him, and then you can also
get in touch with us as well.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Yeah, guys, this has been awesome.
Having Pastor Dan on here hasbeen a dream come true.
But that's going to be it fortoday's episode of the Boundless
Bible.
So if you enjoyed thisconversation, don't forget to
hit follow so you never miss anepisode.
We'd love to hear from you,leave a review, drop us a rating
on your favorite podcast appand, hey, share it with a friend
(36:17):
if they need to hear it.
So thanks for spending timewith us and we'll see you next
time.
Thanks, thanks, guys.
Welcome to the Boundless Bible.
My name is David Shapiro, hey,I'm Javi Marquez and I'm Jason
Holloway.
Welcome guys.
How's it going?
Awesome, Very excited today.
Very excited Today.
I'm excited because we have avery special guest.
Today's guest is someone Ideeply admire, not just for what
(00:23):
he's done, but for who he is.
Pastor Dan Sutherland is akingdom-minded leader with a
heart that beats for the gospeland a vision that stretches
across nations.
He's planted churches both herein the US and overseas, but
more than that, he's poured intohis life, into mentoring
pastors and church planners whocarry the same fire.
Dan has a rare gift he meetspeople exactly where they are,
(00:45):
connects deeply and somehowleaves you walking away feeling
seen, stretched and stirred todo more for the kingdom.
He lives out Paul's wordsbecoming all things to all
people so that, by all means,some might be saved.
If you ever needed clarity,courage and confirmation in your
calling, this conversation willgive you just that.
Welcome Dan.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Thank you.
I'm kind of excited to meetthis guy, whoever he is.
It's quite an introduction.
David, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you, javi, appreciate it,so excited for this.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Why don't we just start off kind of telling a
little bit about yourself andwho you are and your journey
with Christ?
Speaker 3 (01:19):
A Texican, was raised in a Christian home.
Not sure that we were all in onfollowing Christ, but we were
church folks and we werebelieving folks and did not find
my own way to Christ until Iwas a 17-year-old senior.
(01:40):
In high school my youth pastorled me to Christ, which was
amazing.
I think she was the first realChrist follower I'd ever met and
I kind of came out of thatexperience just wanting to
pastor people and help othersfind their way to Jesus.
And that's what I've been doingthe last 50 years One wife, two
(02:03):
kids, seven grandkids.
Blessed to be back in SouthFlorida, god's good and we're
blessed to have you back here,Absolutely so.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
50 years.
You've been doing this for 50years in the industry.
Yes, sir, Just an off the cuffquestion is you know, what is
one thing you've learned in 50years that you did not expect to
learn when you?
Speaker 3 (02:25):
started.
Oh wow, there'd be hundreds ofthose things.
I think one of the things I'vehad to learn, david, is to take
God more seriously and not takemyself as seriously.
Oh wow, you know, to lighten upon me and to tighten up on him
has been a really good thing,and particularly around just who
(02:47):
Jesus is and who he wants to bein our lives.
That's been the fun part.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
That's awesome.
Yeah, I'm excited for this.
I I just love how you kind ofmake things that are complicated
.
It makes it so simple, easy todigest, easy to just kind of
like take practice and and moveforward.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
So and make practical right.
Yeah, you can use.
Every time I walk out of one ofyour sermons, it's like this is
something I can use today.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Well, thank you guys.
I think I'm a simpleton so Ihave to do that.
You know, I need to put thecookies on the bottom shelf so I
can reach them.
That's so good, that's funnythat helps.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
One of the things that I've heard you speak on
that is near and dear to all ofour hearts but definitely we
know it's to yours isdiscipleship.
We've heard you speak ondiscipleship quite a bit.
Why don't we just kind of gothrough the basics of what
discipleship means and then wecan go from there?
Some of the passages that I'veheard you speak about.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Thank you, bud.
I would love to do that.
I think we have to start withwhat's the definition of a
disciple?
So for me I've wrestled withthis some over the years but to
me a disciple is someone whodoes what Jesus does and obeys
what Jesus teaches.
So you're trying to followJesus in doing what he does, but
(04:00):
you're also really payingattention to what Scripture says
.
And we ask the questions allthe time at the church what's
Jesus teaching?
What are you doing about it?
So to me, that's the heart of adisciple.
So if I could get thatheartbeat, I'm well on my way.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Which leads right into 1 Corinthians 11.1, which
is Be imitators of me as I am ofChrist.
And that's exactly what youjust said.
But what does that passagereally mean to you?
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Well, in the simplest English I know that passage
means monkey see, monkey do yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
As simple as that.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
That's what the passage means.
It's I see what it means tofollow Christ and I do what it
means to follow Christ and Paulwas able to say that to the
Corinthians because he wassincerely trying to follow Jesus
.
He didn't have it perfect, buthe was ahead of them.
So it's kind of the conceptthat a fifth grader can disciple
(05:00):
a third grader and a middleschooler can disciple an
elementary kid and a middleschooler can disciple an
elementary kid and a highschooler can disciple a middle
schooler.
Sometimes the best person todisciple use the one that's just
ahead of you, not the onethat's you know 10 years ahead.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
And I love that you you said that, I heard you say
that before and to me thatopened up so much to with
discipleship and leadership in,uh, just in our walk, and I
think to me that's I could takeownership in that right, me
being maybe a fifth grader,maybe not a 10th grader, yeah, I
can still teach somebody elsethat's in third grade, second
(05:38):
grade, and play my part in in mywalk to getting you know, to
the higher grades, or maybe justcontinue to deepen in my
relationship with Jesus Christand my walk.
I could do that, anyone coulddo that, and I think, yeah, now
Right, and I love that you, thatconcept just opened up my walk
and my sense of my purpose andwhat God calls us to do, which
(06:01):
is the Great Commission, right,I think it helps me too, javi,
we're a little bit afraid of I'mnot deep enough yet, or I'm not
far enough yet, or I haven'tlearned enough yet, or I haven't
arrived yet.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
But again the concept is there's somebody ahead of me
, yeah, they disciple me.
There's somebody behind me, Idisciple me, there's somebody
behind me, I disciple them.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
Yeah, it eliminates the, the, the.
I'm not talented enough, I'mnot good enough, so I'm not
going to do it.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Yeah, it definitely disarms your, your inaccuracies.
That's what it does it disarmsit and you get to be part of the
kingdom story.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Well, I mean, that's kind of like the whole Christian
faith, right?
We always are waiting untilwe're good enough to approach
God, and this is one of thosetimes where you can really
practically see that.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
I don't need to be ready.
I think we don't understandthat the disciples were sent out
by Jesus, two by two, afterthey've been following him four
months, right Four months.
Not four years, not 40 yearsfour months.
And then Jesus leaves andleaves the whole thing in their
hand after three years, right,yeah, so these guys weren't
(07:11):
ready.
That's it For what they weredoing but they were ahead
spiritually of where the peoplethat they were leading were.
So fifth grader leading thethird grader.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
That's it, and it's so consistent with who God is
right Again, God doesn't waitfor you to be good enough to
come to him.
God says come to me as you are,I will help you grow and you
will help others grow.
And it's this beautifulsymmetry to the whole Christian
faith.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
Yeah, I think there's a lot there too, right?
I mean, you'll probably go intoit as far as maybe, how to
disciple, how to go out.
I think in discipleship,evangelism is involved in all
that right and just kind ofsharing your faith and all that.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
I know that when you look at 1 Corinthians 11.1, when
Paul says be like me, who islike Jesus, a lot of people
actually took that as him beingvain.
Is him saying you have?
Speaker 4 (08:00):
to be like me.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Yeah, yeah, but he's not.
And what he's saying I thinkthis is a beautiful thing is
anybody can be a disciple.
Of a disciple, anybody can giveknowledge and can share their
life, their testimony, theirknowledge of Christ with
somebody else.
And I think that that's abeautiful part of it and I think
that Paul was very wise in howhe formulated that sentence.
(08:22):
The other thing that leads intois you know, 2 Timothy 2.2,.
This now is when discipleshipis being passed on.
You see multiple people,multiple generations in this
statement.
Where you know a disciple, it'snot just hey, I'm discipled,
I'm a student, and then it endswhat happens after that?
Now, you've learned a littlebit, you feel like you're a
(08:43):
second or a fifth grader.
What happens after that?
Well, you've learned a littlebit, you feel like you're a
second or a fifth grader.
What happens?
Speaker 3 (08:45):
after that.
Well, to me, knowledge equalsresponsibility.
So the minute I learn something, david, I'm now responsible A
to live it and B to pass it on.
That's what discipleship is.
So the verse you're referringto in Timothy there are four
generations in that verse.
(09:06):
I think there's a fifth one,but the four that are in the
verse are Paul says the thingsyou've heard and learned from me
.
Pass these on to others whowill be able to teach others as
well.
So you got Paul to Timothy, toTimothy's disciple, to Timothy's
disciple's disciple.
(09:27):
If you go back to the early bookof Acts, barnabas discipled
Paul.
So you got five generations inthis picture.
So at the time Paul wasdiscipled by Barnabas, barnabas
was ahead of him, made sense.
Timothy wasn't even in thepicture yet, but now, years
later, timothy's in the picturewhen that verse is written in
(09:50):
Timothy.
Timothy's now a young pastor.
He's having to disciple people.
I guess it's this idea for me.
We are all children and we areall grandchildren and we all
have kids and we all havegrandkids and I'm talking about
spiritually Right, right.
So I look back at the men thatdiscipled me and realize
(10:11):
somebody discipled them.
I'm 69 now.
I've lived long enough to seemultiple generations of people
I've discipled.
That's the fun part You'rebuilding the family of God.
That's what discipleship is.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Yeah you have a way of putting things down that that
opens people's minds, and I'mgoing to try to see if I can do
that to you.
There might be a sixthgeneration in there, and the
sixth one is if you look atoriginal judaism, this you know,
the discipleship program wasn'ta christian notion.
Yeah, jewish people did this,where the rabbi would take on
(10:45):
students and they would teachthem.
And not only would the studentswant to learn the knowledge, but
they try to become like therabbi, exactly.
Um, it's part of it, and paul'srabbi was gamaliel.
Yeah, and he was somebody whopaul was supposed to.
Now Paul was way more extreme.
Gamaliel was actually somebodywho was known for being more
(11:08):
moderate and being morerespectful, especially to people
outside of Judaism, but he wasa highly respected Sanhedrin.
He was actually the grandson ofHillel, who is one of the
greatest sages, but he actuallystarted Paul in that learning,
so there might even be a sixthgeneration in there.
The reality is David.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
If you're talking about 2000 years of Christianity
, there are hundreds ofgenerations.
It's exponential.
You won't even be able todiagram this till we're in
heaven itself.
But this is why Jesus' commandto go make disciples is the
central command.
It's the idea of what I'vetaught you.
(11:49):
You now have the responsibilityA to live and B to teach
somebody else.
That's the fun part, yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Yeah, what would you say for somebody out there who
is studying the Bible?
They feel like they're doingthe right thing.
Hey, I pray.
When I wake up in the morningI'm reading my Bible, I'm
listening to worship music, I'mtrying to live a more
Christ-centered life.
But they get to the point where, hey, we know we're supposed to
go and evangelize or go andspread, and they're a little bit
(12:17):
nervous.
They're a little bit.
They're not feeling like that'stheir strong suit, they're
feeling a little inadequate andthey're kind of keeping it to
themselves.
What would some advice you'dgive to them.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
I think understanding the context of of the great
commission helps me here, david,we read it as go make disciples
.
Right, it's a little bit moreof as you go make disciples.
This is not the idea of I'msending you to South Africa to
(12:49):
make disciples or I'm sendingyou to New York City to make
disciples.
It's more the idea of in yourlife today, make disciples,
teach, baptize, share the gospel.
That's the idea.
So for me it becomes a littleless formidable if I understand
that Jesus simply wants me todisciple the people in my
(13:13):
circles, my neighbors, myfriends, guys I hang out with
people that I run into.
That's who I'm responsible for.
That's God's plan for reachingthe world.
He scatters us all over theworld, but he uses us each in
our own locality.
So to me I'm a little lessintimidated by that get up and
(13:35):
go thing If I read it as hey,lord, today I'm willing to share
you with.
Whoever you let me cross pathswith, just put them in my path.
Yeah, whoever you let me crosspaths with, just put them in my
path.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Yeah yeah, I don't recall the name.
I apologize, but there wassomebody who is responsible for
discipleship and who's discipledI mean thousands and thousands
of people who is an extremeintrovert, and one of the things
he told me is I don't need todisciple a thousand people, I
disciple one person who's anextrovert, and they can then go
(14:08):
out.
And so your reach is not basedjust on your own hands, it is
discipling somebody you know.
You start looking at some ofthese major evangelists.
People have been out there,have spoken to millions of
people.
They had a teacher who justtaught them.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Well, you only have to plant one seed to plant a
whole field, right, I mean it'sit.
It multiplies itself.
Speaker 4 (14:26):
Yeah, multiplication, yeah, it multiplies.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
And so one of the things that I'm interested in
again, I kind of have adifferent angle from all these
guys, because I'm still freshlyback into the faith and I'm kind
of relearning what it means asan adult, having learned it as a
child, and one of the thingsthat I'm kind of doing right now
is just realizing that one ofthe best ways I can disciple is
just by being a better versionof myself than I was before.
And when I'm.
When I do that and people knowwho I used to be and they know
who I am now, they start askingquestions.
(14:53):
And they start asking questions.
You know why you seem a littlebit more happy, or you know that
used to really frustrate you.
I usually get ticked off aboutthat.
You know five years ago what'sgoing on now and I find that's a
really easy way to likeintroduce.
Well, you know.
You know, like you said,sometimes people get
uncomfortable sharing it, butit's very easy when people come
to you for it yeah, sometimesthey could.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
I think we see that in the bible too.
I would say like, sometimes,when you do go to your locale,
sometimes people would rejectyou because they know you as
that way in the past or whateverit is, and we see that with
like uh, I, uh I don't know theverse, but I think Jesus talked
about um in your hometown theleast respect what is that I
forgot.
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
I don't know, profit without honor in their hometown.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
Right, and you know and and we see that I think
there's a way of going about itand um, but I liked the, the the
easy approach of that.
Like, hey, start with whereyou're at, start with your
friends, start with yourneighbors and just open up about
what's God done in your life.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Yeah, I think that's it.
Let me ask you, because youknow there is also this question
of biblical knowledge versusyour own testimony.
If you're going to disciplesomebody, where do you think the
best way to get the informationis to disciple?
Are you discipling someonebased on what Jesus has done for
you?
Based on biblical knowledge?
Based on both, yes.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
Right, it's got to be both.
Okay, yeah To me.
If it's just knowledge, david,then I am in an
information-based discipleship.
Discipleship at its best isrelationship-based.
Discipleship at its best isrelationship based, it's me and
you doing life together,learning about Jesus together,
(16:32):
learning new truths together,praying for each other, applying
them Is.
Is the Bible knowledge part, apiece of it?
Without a doubt, for sure it's.
It's a main tool.
Is it the goal?
No, right, it's the tool.
Is it the goal?
No, right, it's the tool.
We worship the living Word ofGod, not the written Word of God
(16:53):
.
Now, I grew up in a church.
I came pretty close toworshiping the written Word of
God.
It was about Bible knowledge.
It was about quoting Scripture,it was about understanding all
the eschatology and all thehistory and, honestly, it was
dry bones.
It did not have life for meuntil I found that relationship
(17:20):
with Christ as a senior in highschool.
So I believe that the bestdiscipleship is I'm going to
walk with you through your liferight now.
We're going to walk togetherand we're going to talk together
about what's Jesus teaching usand what are we doing about it.
And, by the way, studying thisbook together will be a big
piece.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
I love what you say about relationship, because one
of the first people I talked toin the church about all this
stuff was you and you know youand, and both pastor Eric also
said you know you both havingknown it or not known it you
both said the same thing, whichis you got a lot of information
but you really got to find thatrelationship.
Yeah, and one of the thingsthat, like an analogy that I
used I might have even used inanother podcast is that the, the
bible and and relationship withGod is a lot like if you read a
(18:04):
book about basketball and howyou play it, you'd understand it
.
If you went to a basketballgame, you'd understand it a
whole lot differently.
And if you played the game,you'll understand it in a whole
different way because it's apart of your life, it's a part
of your action, part of youremotion.
You learn the details.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
So I think I could teach basketball from a book or
from a bench as a coach Rightfrom a book or from a bench as a
coach.
But I think if I truly want toexperience basketball with
somebody else, we're both on thefloor.
That's discipleship.
We're both on the floor.
I'm not just the coach, I'm notjust the person in the stands,
(18:40):
I'm not just the historiangiving you the information.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
I'm on the floor with you and you have to be the
person they're passing the ballto, and you got to be
comfortable enough to pass itback.
I mean, it's a.
It's a.
It's a very relational thing,and David and I have talked
about this a lot.
We read a million books andalways throwing them back and
forth to each other.
But one of the things that Irealized the other night as I
was reading is like I love thesebooks, I enjoy these books, but
I don't think any of thesebooks have brought me closer to
(19:04):
God.
I think they've filled the partof me I need filled, but what
fills my heart of God is beingin it for long enough to realize
why it all matters in the firstplace.
You know, being able to prayabout it and having an answer
from that prayer, or listeningto a worship song and having it
hit me in some deep place, sodeep I didn't even know it was
there.
And it's interesting, for Idon't know if everybody in this
(19:25):
world is so academic like someof the people here on this
podcast are, but it's importantfor me to remember the academics
are a part of me, but it's notthe only part and in fact, it's
not the most important part, andso this relationship is really
important.
I think discipleship is aboutthat too.
Speaker 4 (19:38):
No, I can relate to that.
I think when I first came toChrist and I wanted to know more
, I was diving into the books.
I was diving into you know justeverything about it and I even
at times Bible-thumped peopleand just kind of threw these
scriptures at people and justkind of lost relationships.
In that it was really sad.
But as I continue to grow in myfaith and finding a church like
(20:01):
ours and stuff like that, I'velearned that the walk matters
probably more and the life anddoing life for others and just
truly loving others, um, inChrist, and then you know really
having patience and reallyhaving to to share what's gone
in your life but also trying toraise them up and just dive
deeper with Christ and seekingGod first.
(20:22):
Um has taught me a big thingabout relationships and what God
wants for us in, in, in ourkingdom, you know, in the
kingdom.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Pastor Dan, what do you think some of the biggest
challenges people have withdiscipleship are?
Speaker 3 (20:34):
I think the biggest challenge is we don't understand
discipleship because we haven'tbeen discipled.
Oh, okay, it's.
It's kind of like marriage.
Yeah, you can study it, you canread about it, you can study it
, you can read about it, you canobserve it.
Until you're married, it's kindof hard to know fully what's
going on.
So I think many of our churchesif I could just go for it here
(21:00):
are all about Sunday morning orthey're all about Bible classes
or they're all about going upthrough a certain system of
learning, maybe not necessarilythat much about making disciples
Right, right.
So I think the thing that holdsus up the most is we just
(21:20):
haven't experienced it.
Once you have, you're hooked.
Yeah, I mean you guys arediscipling each other through
this podcast For sure you knowthat's happening.
You're sharper because you dothis together.
I've been thinking about that.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Still pretty dull, but I'm sharper.
Speaker 4 (21:37):
I've been thinking about that lately.
I think having a conversationwith you maybe earlier on this
year, and just having theperspective of multiplication as
a, as a, as a goal, as a, as apurpose, um means so much more
to me now in in my walk, ratherthan, you know, feeding myself
and learning more and just kindof doing that and just really
being well, what doesmultiplication looks like?
(21:58):
What does go and makediscipleship disciples look like
?
And that's truly, yeah, Doinglife, life to life.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
But he did not disciple the 12 by saying, hey
guys, let's work our way throughthe book of Isaiah.
There's no place in the threeyears where he pulls out the
scroll of Isaiah and says, okay,let's look at the first scroll.
What does this Hebrew word mean?
What is this about?
That's a great point.
He's not against that, but it'snot what he does.
(22:34):
Yeah, they do life together andin the doing of life they
disciple each other.
They talk about what's godteaching you.
What are you doing about it?
Jesus taught more parables.
He quoted more parables than hequoted verses of scripture.
Interesting, told lots ofstories.
Yep, uh, I'm not down onscripture.
(22:55):
Don't hear that.
I'm as up on scriptures anybodyI know.
But I have seen some people inchurches that know scripture
really well, but they're stillmean.
Son of a guns.
Yeah, the character hasn't beenchanged right.
So is discipleship working?
I Maybe not in that setting, soto me that's the fun.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
I think there's a logistical problem with being,
you know, with not disciplingright.
Like Jesus couldn't reach everyhuman being on his own right.
And some churches, like yousaid and it's not an accusation
or anything else, but somechurches are the leadership of
the team is who you need to payattention to, it's who you have
to connect with, it's who youhave to integrate with.
Leadership of the team is whoyou need to pay attention to.
It's who you have to connectwith.
It, too, you have to integratewith.
You got 10,000 people alltrying to deal with those five
people.
You know that's going to be.
You're going to have some, somebottlenecks, but you know Jesus
(23:42):
, like you said, four months hehad two of them going out at a
time, three years, it's on youguys.
And then it was expansion byexponentialism And's like I
don't need to be the head ofanything.
I'm just an arm, you know, oneof many, many arms in in a much
larger body, and that's bothfreeing and a sense of
(24:04):
responsibility.
It's both Right, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
I think that's part of having you know.
When we're talking about havingsomebody you know above you who
is discipling you, somebodybelow you you're discipling.
I think that also keeps youhonest.
You're looking at somebody,you're discipling, and you need
to make sure you're at your bestand doing the right thing for
them.
Yeah, for sure.
And the same thing, you'rekeeping the person above you
accountable, you know, a lot oftimes.
That's why they say studentscan teach the teacher, and
(24:25):
there's no better way to learnthan to teach.
Absolutely.
One of the other things thathappens and God does this, and
he's brilliant at this is heputs things in place in such a
way where you have Paul, which Imentioned.
He was more extreme than whohad taught him, um, and and what
ended up happening?
Is God, what he does, is heuses what is quote unquote evil.
(24:46):
So you have this man who ispersecuting all of the
Christians, who was doing allthis evil, but he's doing it
with this conviction um, changesit for good, and now he, with
this conviction um, changes itfor good, and now he has this
conviction for spreading thegospel.
Yeah, and it was only that typeof conviction and that type of
of gall to go out there thatneeded at that moment.
And god used that.
(25:06):
And I look at you know, listen,pastor dan is one of the people
who, when I started my journeyinto academics, I was meeting
with people who were collegeprofessors and part of academia,
and they were great people, butthey were.
Their focus was solely knowledge, right, and I was there and I
was like, no, this is where Ineed to be.
And then, at the time where Imet Pastor Dan, I was ready to
(25:29):
release some of that and realizethat the academics wasn't
everything, that there is thepart of the emotion, the
relationship, the testimony.
God did something in me thathad nothing to do with what I
was reading on a paper and andthat was just that time.
Again, god's timing was likehey, here's this person who has
this education, who has thisbackground, who has this
(25:51):
knowledge, and nobody would everknow it.
Um, because what he's going tolead from is he's going to lead
from a relationship, and it wasone of the most beautiful things
that I got to learn from you,just by being around you, not
even asking you to teach it, andthat's that doing the life
together, right, yeah, I meancan can you talk a little bit
more about that relationshipthing?
Speaker 2 (26:09):
I mean I'm, I'm getting, I'm starting to get
something I don't know if I everlike practically put into terms
before, but to get a betterrelationship with God.
You get to better relationshipwith people who follow God and
in watching their, their journey, you can then mold your journey
more.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
You do.
When the scripture talks aboutbad company corrupts good morals
, yeah, yeah, the flip side isalso true.
Good company helps produce goodmore.
Yeah, you become like thepeople you spend the most time
with, jason.
Yes, we just do.
Yes.
So if I can hang out with, dolife with, people that love
(26:49):
Jesus and are really going afterhim, that will help me to want
to do the same thing.
You guys have heard me tell thestory.
I have a third grade grandson.
He was third grade at the timethat was diagnosed with severe
dyslexia very bright, but sawall his words backwards and
(27:11):
scram.
So they got him in a new schoolwith a dyslexia expert at the
school, somebody that hadgraduate degrees in dyslexia
that could work with him.
She worked with him.
His parents worked with him.
The most effective person todisciple him as a third grader
was his fifth grade brother.
(27:32):
No way, because his fifth gradebrother could say I understand
what you're dealing with here,try this, try this, and
literally walked him throughthat.
Yeah.
So again, sometimes it's notsitting at the feet of a master
that changes your life.
It can.
Yeah, it's these relationshipswhere iron on iron, as the old
(27:56):
testament describes, where it'sabout the relationship.
If my relationship with god isthe goal, then these
relationships can help me getthere.
Yeah, yeah and vice versa yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
And again, it's interesting because I kept
hearing you have to haverelationship with god.
You have to relationship withgod and I'm like how do I do
that?
I'm reading the bible, I'mpraying, I'm doing these things,
but I'm not changing very much.
I'm getting to know him, butthat's not a personal
relationship.
And it's only been kind ofrecently, in Ava even maybe in
this moment, that I'm kind ofrealizing that how we get closer
to God is literally by seeinghim reflected in the people that
(28:30):
we're spending time with.
And also, side note, my dadused to tell me when I was a kid
you hang out with people belowyou, they'll pull you down.
You hang out with people aboveyou, they'll pull you up.
Oh wow.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Well, it seems to be true.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Same concept, less biblical, but same concept there
.
But it is true and that's whatI.
It wasn't because God didn'tcall me or because people didn't
call me, or because I didn'tcall me.
It was because I didn't have acommunity, I didn't have the
discipleship of the peoplearound me to bring me up and
instead I had people bringing medown, and it just.
These types of things are soimportant.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
Yeah, that's what I love about churches.
I think church is a good way tofind community with people that
are going through life justlike you and wanting to know God
a little bit further.
And I think those people ifanyone out there is really
struggling with going tochurches or finding a good
church, please go and try tofind a good church.
Churches are meant to shape you, to help you, to lift you, to
(29:31):
give you a community where youcould be able to lean on someone
on a practical level, ratherthan like searching it from
someone on the pulpit.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Sometimes it's hard to you know that's a strong
statement right there.
Rather than searching for yoursafety from someone in the
pulpits, search for your safetyand your knowledge.
Speaker 4 (29:45):
Yeah, seriously, I mean, it's you know it's kind of
hard to really I'm not.
I'm a wait to be discipledbecause I want the person on the
pulpit disciple because he'sthe one that knows.
No, there's other people aroundyou that going through same
thing you're going through.
You know and and could help youlift you up.
I love the fact that you justsaid, pastor dan, your, your
third grade, your fifth graderwas teaching your third grade
(30:05):
what it is is also the fifthgrade.
You said something there thatwas really key for me was the
fifth grader knows what you'regoing through because I just I
just went through that, ratherthan maybe somebody that was in
10th grade and going I'm alreadyabove what you're going through
, cause I just I just wentthrough that rather than maybe
somebody that was in 10th gradeand going.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
I'm already above what you're.
Speaker 4 (30:18):
I can't really see the little finite stuff that
you're going through, because II'm not thinking about that,
rather than I'm thinking aboutsomething else.
You know far from what you'rethinking about.
Wait, I'm in fifth grade, Iknow I went through that just
yesterday, so I know whereyou're going to that little
municipal thing.
So I think that's big Totallyand I think churches and
relationships are are huge inour faith and I hold tight to
(30:40):
that because relationships Ijust.
The more I read the Bible, themore I see that it's all about
relationships.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
It's funny because our again, I'm still new to this
, and three years ago, if youtold me I was going to have a
series of friends who were menthat we met with on a regular
basis, I would have told you noway, that's just.
That's not how our societyworks anymore.
Our society is not built aroundcommunities anymore, you know,
and and that's reallydetrimental to our society.
And it's funny, because now I'mthinking that there was this
(31:08):
meme.
You ever seen this meme thatthe greatest miracle that Jesus
ever, uh, ever, made come truewas the fact that he had 12
friends after the age of 30.
Speaker 4 (31:16):
I think I've seen that.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
I thought that was hysterical, but I mean it's true
, like the, the, the ability tohave community at this age, the
ability to be able to have agroup of people who I have a
covenantal you know relationshipwith.
You know it's not.
We don't just hang out to havefun, we hang out to talk about
stuff, and when things aren'tgoing good, we talk.
(31:38):
And when things are going good,we talk.
And that's not the relationshipthat most men and I don't know
about women, but that's not therelationship most men have after
the age of 30.
And so being able to do so in aGod-centered environment around
a God-centered philosophy isprobably the most valuable thing
.
Anybody who's listening to this, who doesn't have that, can get
themselves into.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
I'll say that you know, we talk about God and
Jesus, how they model everythingfor us, and this is what we're
looking at.
We're looking at what wasmodeled for us.
When I look at the 12 disciplesand I see how they were
discipled.
I even look at people whoweren't even part of Jesus.
And when you look at God andwhat he could have done, he
could have sent a slew of rabbisto go and teach everybody he
could have done.
Speaker 4 (32:17):
He could have snapped his fingers and everybody would
have already had it and what hedid was.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
you know we look at the, the timing at which jesus
was crucified.
You know this was done onpurpose and what it was is.
This is the holiday of passover.
This is where the pilgrimage Ithink about this a lot the
mandatory pilgrimage was for thejews to come back to Jerusalem,
so you have the most amount ofJewish people from all these
other nations there witnessingthe crucifixion of Jesus, and
(32:43):
they stayed because Shavuot wasnow seven weeks later, which is
the other pilgrimage, so they'realso seeing the resurrection.
Oh, I didn't know that.
Yes, so now you have all ofthese people who God has placed
there for relationship to thosenext 40 days I'm seeing.
I'm, yeah, and I'm seeing thecrucifixion.
I'm hearing about theresurrection, and now I'm
(33:05):
hearing this new preaching, and,and it's amazing that God had
created this for relationship.
He wanted people to be togetherat the same place at the same
time, and it wasn't.
Hey, you're going to be here tolisten to one person, one
master.
You're going to be there toshare this, to witness this
together.
Um, it's just one of thosethings where I'm going.
You know, God had it right fromthe beginning, Um, and and it's
(33:28):
funny that you know so manypeople today still don't get it
right.
We'd still understand it.
He's been doing it right for somany, you know, for so many
years.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
I imagine there's more stuff that you've learned
and forgotten in your life thanI'll ever learn.
I doubt that.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
There's a lot I have forgotten.
No doubt about that.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
But I, you know, I wonder, like I, a question,
maybe a kind of a selfishquestion, especially when I
first got back in.
When you really start being adisciple which which I give the
terminology of being anapprentice really right, Like
that's what you're trying to do.
You're trying to be like Christand one of the biggest things
that comes up when you try to belike Christ is, the closer you
get to being like Christ, themore far you realize you're from
ever being actually like Christ.
Do you find that people give upin that moment, or that they
(34:14):
have a crisis of faith in thatmoment when they realize that
they're just not there?
Like, what's your advice forsomebody who's trying to be a
disciple, trying to apprenticeto be like God, like Jesus, but
are having a hard time?
Speaker 3 (34:25):
I don't see as many people giving up because they
realize that it's unattainable,because I think what you also
get to see, jason and you'veseen it is you see the life
change in your own life.
So, yes, the closer you get toJesus, the more you realize how
(34:46):
far you are.
Yeah, it's the idea of walkinginto the light.
The more you're in the light,the more you see the shadow and
the darkness in your own soul.
But when I can look back at thelife change that has occurred,
if I had no other proof of thereality of Jesus other than the
(35:07):
way he's changed my life, that'senough.
I agree, the way he's changedmy daughter's life, my friend's
life, my grandson's life.
So the fun part to me is's life, my grandson's life.
So the fun part to me is, yes,I have more questions.
Yes, I realize how vast God isthe closer I get to him, but yes
, I'm impressed with what he'sdone.
(35:28):
That's it.
That's the counterbalance.
That's a beautiful answer.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Thank you, that's great.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
Well, listen, we can talk about this for days and
days and days.
Speaker 4 (35:37):
I kind of want to.
I don't really want to let.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Dan go, pastor Dan, I really appreciate you coming
out here and having thisconversation with us.
If you have questions, if youwant to get in touch with Pastor
Dan, dansatthelocalchurchcom iswhere you can get in touch with
him, and then you can also getin touch with us as well.
Is where you can get in touchwith him, and then you can also
get in touch with us as well.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Yeah, guys, this has been awesome.
Having Pastor Dan on here hasbeen a dream come true.
But that's going to be it fortoday's episode of the Boundless
Bible.
So if you enjoyed thisconversation, don't forget to
hit follow so you never miss anepisode.
We'd love to hear from you,leave a review, drop us a rating
on your favorite podcast appand, hey, share it with a friend
(36:17):
if they need to hear it.
So thanks for spending timewith us and we'll see you next
time.
Thanks, thanks, guys.
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