August 15, 2024 • 39 mins
"Our traumas can either be our greatest problem or our greatest superpower," (Dr. Robyn Koslowitz). Which do you believe it is? Reflect on childhood trauma with Dr. Koslowitz, a nationally recognized clinical psychologist, who dives deep into her personal journey and professional insights to help us understand how trauma can be hidden beneath a child's seemingly calm exterior. Dr. Koslowitz emphasizes the necessity for creating supportive environments for children who have faced significant hardships.
This episode offers valuable strategies to help traumatized students maintain a productive learning zone without crossing the threshold into overwhelm. Practical techniques such as allowing children to express their worries and teaching them how to compartmentalize their concerns are discussed. We also highlight the pivotal role of social and emotional learning (SEL) in aiding children to comprehend their stress responses and develop essential emotional regulation skills. Moreover, we provide guidance for teachers on recognizing when additional support is needed for students dealing with significant challenges.
Dr. Koslowitz shares insights from her upcoming book, "Post-Traumatic Parenting," to illustrate how trauma can manifest in everyday parenting scenarios. By examining the concept of secret ACEs and their influence on parenting, she offers tools they need for success. Join us for an enlightening conversation that bridges understanding and actionable advice, aimed at fostering resilience in both children and parents.
More:
Post-Traumatic Parenting podcast
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (00:09):
Welcome to the brighter side of education,
research, innovation andresources.
I'm your host, dr Lisa Hassler,here to enlighten and brighten
the classrooms in Americathrough focused conversation on
important topics in education.
In each episode, I discussproblems we as teachers and
parents are facing and whatpeople are doing in their
communities to fix it.
(00:29):
What are the variables and howcan we duplicate it to maximize
student outcomes?
Today's focus is on childhoodtrauma and teacher support.
Childhood trauma can occur whenstudents witness or experience a
frightening, dangerous, violentor life-threatening event
between the ages of 0 and 18.
However, not all overwhelmingand life-threatening experiences
(00:50):
are considered traumatic, aschildren interpret their unique
experiences differently.
A life event that is traumaticfor one child might not be
traumatic for another.
Trauma can be better understoodand defined through the three
E's of trauma event, experienceand effect.
Another related term is adversechildhood experiences, aces.
(01:11):
The ACE study is an ongoingresearch project exploring the
relationship between childhoodtrauma and long-term medical,
health and social consequences.
Results show that approximately65% of children experience at
least one adverse event duringtheir childhood and nearly 40%
two or more ACEs.
Now, the study found that thegreater the number of ACEs a
(01:33):
child is exposed to, the highertheir risk of developing
physical and mental healthproblems throughout their life.
Trauma-informed teachinginvolves a set of classroom
practices that teachers can useto mitigate the impact of trauma
on student learning.
Studies have found thatstudents exposed to these
strategies are better able toregulate their emotions, build
resilience, achieve greateracademic results and maintain
(01:55):
better attention in class.
It begins with understandingwhat trauma is and how it
affects the student's emotions,behavior and learning, enabling
teachers to respond to students'needs and create safe and
supportive learning environments.
Today, we are honored to welcomeDr Robin Koslowitz, a
nationally recognized clinicalpsychologist and expert in
childhood trauma and resilience.
(02:17):
Dr Koslowitz has been alicensed school psychologist
since 2002 and a licensedclinical psychologist since 2017
.
She holds a master's degree inschool psychology and a PhD in
school clinical child psychologyfrom New York University.
In addition to her clinicalwork, dr Koslowitz is a
parenting educator and the hostof the Post-Traumatic Parenting
(02:39):
Podcast.
She brings a wealth ofexperience from her previous
roles as a third and fourthgrade teacher.
Robin joins us today to shareher invaluable insights,
personal journey and to discussher forthcoming book,
post-traumatic Parenting.
Welcome, robin, it's a pleasureto have you with us.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (02:55):
Thank you so much for having me.
I am so excited to talk about,I think, the two topics that I'm
passionate about, which ispost-traumatic parenting and
trauma-informed education,because those are my absolute
passions in life.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (03:09):
Can you share your personal journey and how it
led you to becoming an experton childhood trauma and
resilience?
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (03:15):
Yeah, so I was a kid having the regular
trajectory of life.
I had a very kind ofchronically ill parent growing
up and my father actually diedunder very traumatic
circumstances when I was in highschool and then fast forward to
me being in graduate school and, unlike my classmates at NYU,
(03:36):
where people were very focusedand they really had their
research interests andeverything that they were doing
kind of synchronized, I foundmyself studying so many
different things.
I was studying kids who wereacting out In the clinic I was
working with.
I actually was working withkids who had encopresis and
aneurysis, kids who couldn'tcontrol their bowels, and I was
also at my research lab doingresearch in child temperament
(04:00):
and I remember thinking why am Iso all over the place Like
everybody else is studying, likeyou know, cutting in 35 year
olds or Piagetian cognitivedevelopment concepts in fourth
graders, you know like everyonewas like so consistent and I'm
all over the map.
And it suddenly hit me that whatI'm really studying is the
(04:21):
impact of trauma on childdevelopment and how it impacts
parenting.
Because as a young mom, I hadthis one major question, which
is I know I have PTSD, I knowthat I have like the full blown
condition.
How is my PTSD going to impactmy children?
(04:43):
And, being a research geek, Iwent to the books, because
that's what you do, and therewas nothing, there was no
research on this topic, wow.
And it suddenly hit me like abolt out of the blue like, oh,
I'm studying the impact oftrauma on child development and
parenting.
That's what I'm trying to do,because I'm trying to write the
book that I would like to read.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (05:04):
That's amazing , because it really takes such
inward insight to reflect onyour own patterns and interest,
to see why something so broadand yet so narrow at the same
time, because it's so veryspecific to you, and then how
you're able to help othersthrough that research.
So what kind of signs, then, dochildren exhibit?
(05:25):
What kind of warning signsshould parents and teachers be
noticing?
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (05:29):
So I think the first thing is, before we
even go into signs because Ithink that's important.
I think the first thing we haveto do is demystify the fact
that children do becometraumatized, even children who
seem to be fine on the surface,because a lot of times it's not
about looking for the signs,it's about not looking for the
(05:50):
signs.
Like this child went through atraumatic experience.
They are traumatized.
The fact that they look fine onthe surface is absolutely
meaningless.
I very often in my practice,because I treat a lot of
traumatized kids, I call itbeing a duck.
A duck, you know, looks soserene on the surface of the
(06:11):
water and they're just sort oflike floating there and then
under the water their legs arepedaling furiously and we only
look at the surface.
So we have to know that if achild experienced a traumatic
event and we're going to knowthat if the community
experienced a traumatic eventand the child was part of that
community like there was aschool shooting in the community
, or even a child in the school,maybe a few grades away, you
(06:33):
know, died of suddenly or diedof cancer or there was something
the assumption has to be thatthat experience was too big for
the kid's brain to metabolize.
Even if they seem fine, wedon't want to assume that
they're fine.
Because if you looked at me whenI was in high school, my way of
handling trauma is I becomemore productive, I hyper focus
(06:54):
on work because I'm good at work, I'm a geek, I'm good at
research.
So if you look at Freud'sdefinition of success in life to
live, love and work like I wasworking.
I was getting straight A's.
I was the captain of like theservice team in my school.
We had like a community serviceorganization.
I was the president of it and Iwas on the honor roll and I had
(07:15):
friends on every level.
I looked fine.
I was so very not fine but noone thought to say, oh, but is
she really fine?
Because I looked fine.
So I almost feel like when welook for the signs, if the signs
aren't there, we think, oh, thechild's fine.
If we define trauma as anexperience that's too big for
(07:36):
the brain to metabolize which ishow I like to look at trauma
then if an experience happenedthat you would say that is too
big for a brain to metabolize,then it's our job to sort of
help them digest it.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (07:48):
Okay.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (07:49):
And then there are also signs, obviously,
when you see a sudden change ina child, when you see
mysterious behavior, patternsthat don't make sense.
So to me, when a child is beingdefiant, when a child is, you
know, has every indicator thatthey could be successful in
school and yet they're not.
To me, that's one of two things.
There's either an invisibleskill that's lacking.
(08:09):
I was just in a school todayconsulting and there's a young
man who has an IQ that's off thecharts.
It's literally untestable.
I've tested a lot of kids.
I have never tested a kid thisbright, wow.
And he wasn't even anevaluation case of me.
I just wanted like to likesatisfy my own curiosity.
So like I pulled out theStanford banana and I was trying
one of the more challengingsubtests.
(08:31):
He's sealing out, meaning therewere no more questions to ask
him and he still was doing well,wow.
But the very basics of how toread a situation he didn't have.
This child is on the spectrum,so we have like a neurodiversity
issue.
So there we have a situationwhere it's like he lacks the
skill to handle this.
(08:51):
But if it wasn't that, if hewas neurotypical, and yet we're
seeing these baffling behaviors,that just doesn't make sense.
We're going to assume thatsomething is lacking that
child's ability to be successful.
If it isn't a skills deficit,then we're going to assume that
something is lacking thatchild's ability to be successful
.
If it isn't a skills deficit,then we're looking at trauma.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (09:09):
Okay, that makes sense.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (09:11):
And that's what I'm always looking at.
Do you get this Like seriously,looking at this boy and saying,
like in the words of DaleCarnegie, do you know how to win
friends and influence people?
No, you do not.
That's because we're dealingwith a neuro-atypicalityity.
Okay, we're going to teach youthen how to win friends and
influence people, because thenyou will do well in life.
And if you can do that in a waythat speaks to someone with
(09:31):
that level of an iq, you can dothat.
But if not, if, if there's noneuro atypicality that's causing
this, then and very often whenthat happens and I'm consulting
in a school, I'll say somethingand the person will say, oh yeah
, well, I mean, his grandma washis primary caregiver, like she
(09:52):
was basically the parent in thehome.
She died two years ago, but hehandled that fine.
So one of two things either no,he didn't Right, and now you're
starting to see it, orsometimes trauma actually
happens in the future, not thepast.
So what happens is your brainhas to hit the developmental
stage to comprehend whathappened to you, and then you
first become traumatized.
(10:13):
So maybe grandma died when hewas six and he didn't understand
the permanence of death, butnow he's eight and a half and
his brain can comprehendpermanence and suddenly he's
traumatized because it justhappened.
Grandma did not actually dietwo years ago.
Grandma died yesterday becausehis brain finally caught up to
what happened.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (10:32):
I never thought about it that way.
That makes so much sense.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (10:35):
Right.
And then we say they're beingmanipulative.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (10:37):
Those things happen so often, you would
wonder.
Well, yes, this did happen, butit was a while ago, and so now
it must be something new,something different, something
current.
I'd never thought about thebrain catching up to that when
it comes to developmentallybeing aware of a concept like
death.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (10:55):
It also sometimes is something new, in
consonance with something thathappened in the past.
I consult in some high schoolsand I had a girl who had lost I
feel like she lost her mother,maybe like in third grade.
She came into ninth grade andsuddenly she's saying things to
teachers like, well, I couldn'tdo my paper because I was really
(11:18):
sad because my mother died, andthe teacher thinking like this
happened last week, and then theschool had this idea that she's
being manipulative, like she'susing her story to get away with
something where I'm able tolook at the teacher and say
she's in a new situation, soit's new and unfamiliar, so she
feels vulnerable and unsafe andunsure of her capacity to handle
things.
Maybe she's hearing friends say, yeah, so my mom and I sat down
(11:41):
and we figured out a plan forthis term paper together and it
suddenly hit her that shedoesn't have a mom to do that
with.
And now it's happening.
Maybe her mother didn't die inthird grade, maybe her mother
died yesterday.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (11:53):
Yeah.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (11:53):
Right.
So it's the new stressorcoupled with the old fact
together that now she'straumatized.
And I actually, in thatsituation, sat down with a kid
who I had never met before and Iasked her.
I said, like tell me aboutwhat's going on.
And it's literally what shesaid.
Like the principal is shockedthat I like predicted it.
She's like I'm in high schoolnow and my friend's mothers are
(12:17):
picking them up or they're goingout, or there's like a one of
the clubs in the school ishaving like a mother-daughter
brunch and I have who to invite.
Like I'll invite my aunt, butit's, I don't have a mother.
It's hitting her now.
It was something about thetransition from elementary
school to high school and maybeher brain maturing and becoming
an adolescent that she wasprocessing it now.
(12:39):
So when the school understoodthat this is not an attempt at
manipulation, this is somethingelse entirely, their entire
focus on her changed because theprincipal was going like I
believe in tough love andaccountability and we're not
going to do her any favors if welet her go down this path.
I said I believe inaccountability, I believe in
love, I believe in making peoplebe responsible within the level
(13:00):
that their brain is capable ofhandling.
This is above that level.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (13:05):
Yeah.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (13:05):
Yeah and right.
Trauma is too big for yourbrain to metabolize.
This is too big.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (13:10):
When those things happen, you do some
target teaching with teachers.
Let's say you have this childand they've had this trauma.
I could only imagine howdistracting and how difficult it
is to be able to focus onlearning when things like that
are going through your brain andyou're being brought into this
trauma zone where maybe you'rethinking about, like oh, they're
talking about their mom and I'msitting here and I'm supposed
(13:32):
to be learning about additionand all I can think about is how
I don't have my mom right now.
How does a teacher cope withthat when it comes to helping
that child be able to learn andstay focused?
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (13:45):
It's such a good question.
I find that kids actually dovery well when you explain that
to them.
When you say to a child we wantto stress you out to the point
that you grow that analogy ofhow a muscle grows right, we
mildly rip the muscle fiber sothat more muscle fiber comes.
Even third graders can get that, but high school kids can
definitely get that.
(14:05):
I want to stress you out alittle bit.
I want you to be in that zoneof I'm trying, kind of failing,
trying again Now I got it.
I want you to be in thatlearning zone.
But when you're in that stresszone where it's too much, I need
you to be able to signal to meso that we can figure something
out, so that we can come up witha plan and then, depending on
(14:26):
the kid, we can individualize aplan of what we're going to do.
So then the child has to knowbecause if I help you with every
little thing, then you neverlearn how to handle adversity.
But when it's too big for you,you need to be able to tell me
that when there is something onyour brain.
And I consult with a lot ofschools and I had a school with
a third grade class where theteacher was really having a hard
(14:48):
time engaging them and therewas just like the class was all
over the place and there were alot of kids coping with some
serious adversity.
The simplest thing that weswitched was this idea that if
anybody has something a littletoo big on their brain that's
making it hard to learn Duringthe first like 10 minutes of the
day, like after the teacher didwhatever she did to start the
day.
If you need to, you can go tothe back of the room.
(15:09):
There's an MP3 player you cantalk into, like this recorder.
You can talk your two big worryinto it and then you can go
down and then you can go back toyour seat and the teacher is
going to listen to it.
At some point it became noteven in the day, it became some
point in the week and one we'retwo third grade classrooms.
One teacher was like this,they're just going to be silly,
they're going to whistle into it, they're going to this that.
(15:30):
The other teacher was likewe're going to try it.
So she was willing to try and,yeah, you had one or two kids
who blew off a little steam bymaking weird animal noises into
the MP3 player and then sittingback down, great.
So you got to play with thesystem.
I don't mind Play with thesystem.
(15:52):
This is what I want you to do,hey, if you make some weird
farting sounds into the mp3player and then you sit down, um
, and then you're like ready tolearn.
Fabulous, right, right, likeyou got that out.
Yeah, with farting glasses, Idon't care.
And then kids were saying theirworries and we taught them this
idea that you can sort of putyour worries into a box, focus
on what's going on in class, andthen you tell that part of you
like now I can check in with youlater.
And and then during social andemotional learning, we talked
about the idea that whateverthat worry was, that you said
(16:14):
into the box do you have anadult that you can go to with
that?
Who are your adults in school?
If it's a school-based issue,who are your adults at home?
And here and there we figuredout there were one or two kids
who didn't have an adult at home.
And then that meant now we knowexactly how to refer them
because like, oh, this kid needsmuch more support, we need to
get the school counselorinvolved, because they're saying
(16:36):
well, I would talk to my mom,but she's so stressed out about
the divorce that, like if I tellher anything upsetting about
the girl who's making fun of me,I won't sit next to me at
recess.
I'll stress her out too much.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (16:47):
Yeah.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (16:48):
So okay, that's why we have school
counselors, like you justreferred yourself.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (16:52):
I think that sometimes teachers they're
looking at an issue and they'rewondering is this something that
I can handle on my own?
How do you know when it is toobig for you and you need to go
to the counselor or you need tobring in a professional into
that situation to be able tohelp that traumatized child?
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (17:09):
So I think, the more we bring that social
and emotional learning into theclassroom, where the kids
themselves are learning abouttheir stress response, they're
understanding the idea of zonesof regulation, they're
understanding how emotionsfunction, they get all of that.
They know how to lower anuncomfortable emotion if they
need to, how to raise a positiveemotion if they need to.
Like they understand their ownbrains, like I call it the
(17:30):
science of me, right, likethat's what we're learning.
I had this in a school wherethe principal's very into his
fundamentals and he's like well,we teach.
Like reading, writing, math, weteach.
I was like psychology is ascience.
It's a soft science, but it's ascience, trust me.
I have a PhD from NYU.
They teach stuff there.
We don't flower a rage, right,like psychology is a science.
(17:51):
This is psychology.
We're going to learn how ourbrains work.
The more we know how our brainswork, the more we know how our
bodies work, the more we cantake ownership of that
information.
When a child says I get all ofthat and I still can't, that's
when we say okay, you need aprofessional.
So I try an intervention with akid who's a perfectionist and I
say you know what?
What you're going to do is weall agree.
(18:14):
So no one's going to be judgingyou.
The teacher's giving out 10math examples.
You're only allowed to do eightof them and one of them has to
be intentionally wrong and oneof them has to be written in
green crayon, right, whatever.
And the kid's like I totallyget it.
The Mr Worry in my brain isbossing me around and I don't
want to let Mr Worry that kid.
Actually it was ProfessorPerfectionist.
So like Professor Perfectionistis bossing me around, so I this
(18:34):
was something I advised theteacher to do like, not as a
therapist, as a schoolconsultant.
So you know, professorPerfectionist is bossing me
around, I'm going to boss heraround.
I tried.
I can't do it.
All right, now we need aprofessional, because if it's
too big for me to handle, thenwe need a professional.
If that intervention likeprofessor perfectionist and the
teacher giving silly ideas of,like you're going to mess up,
(18:54):
you're going to write itbackwards and the kid can do it,
great, then that's within theclassroom setting, provided, of
course, that we're freeing theteacher up to have an individual
relationship with her students.
If you have a teacher who'sgoing from classroom to
classroom with 60 kids in theclass and she has 30 minutes to
teach math, then we're notsetting her or the kids up for
success.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (19:13):
No, you're not going to be able to have that
connection or know your studentswell enough to be able to have
those types of conversations andbe aware of what is different
for them when it comes to theirbehavior.
I had a child whose father haddied and every once in a while
something would happen and hewould get so angry and then you
know, as you would approach him,he would go to the back of the
(19:35):
room, sit in the corner and justcry and you couldn't even go
near him.
So at that point we would justallow him to have that space and
calm down and he was able torejoin the classroom when he
knew he was calm again.
But at that point, how does ateacher regain control of a
class when something like thathas happened?
(19:56):
What kind of things would yourecommend?
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (19:58):
So I think we make this mistake of thinking
like kids don't notice thingsright.
I like to talk about elephantsin the room, so saying it looks
like James's emotions got waytoo big for his body.
We're going to give him timeand what I like to do how I cue
kids to get their attention backis show me without words that
you're interested in what I haveto say.
Oh right, and then like,automatically shoulders go up,
(20:19):
back and down, whatever.
And then I say, now show methat you're interested in what I
have to say on steroids and Iteach them to like, sparkle
their eyes at me.
Oh, you know, I do that.
I always do this idea where Iwant to give ownership to the
kids.
So I always say to them youthink that your teacher teaches
you, but you actually teach yourteacher, because when you sit
there and you look like you'reready to learn and you sparkle
(20:39):
your eyes, then you're teachingme that you are a student that I
want to engage with, that youwant to learn.
When a kid says to me my teacherplays favorites, I say okay,
did you teach her that you'reher favorite?
Yet it's on you to teach herthat.
You can teach her that yousparkle your eyes at her.
You sit there in class with alistening posture.
Most teachers yeah, will therebe some outliers who honestly
(21:04):
went into teaching for all thewrong reasons.
Of course I can't account forall of that, but on the whole,
most teachers teach because theyreally like teaching kids.
So you teach her to like you,she will like you.
So I say that to the class.
I say we're going to give himthe space to contain his
emotions.
The rest of us you're going toshow me without words that
you're interested and you'regoing to do him the respect of
(21:24):
giving him his space, and then Iwould have a conversation with
him about everything he didright in that situation.
You know, you were really mad.
You're mad, got so big andinstead of lashing out and
hurting someone, you went to theback of the room.
You made that really goodchoice.
That's amazing.
That's an amount ofself-regulation that some
grownups don't have.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (21:43):
So how can social emotional learning then
be a factor that prevents astressful situation from
becoming traumatic?
So I like to really have kidsunderstand their stress response
and understand the idea thatwhen something's stressful, it's
not dangerous.
Right, we have to getcomfortable.
Being uncomfortable when it'sdangerous is when it feels too
(22:04):
big, too much, too fast and I'mall alone in coping with it.
If I have those factors, thatmeans I need the help of someone
else and there's no shame inthat.
That means like if I'm smart,I'm going to get help.
When I'm dealing with somethingthat's too big, too much, too
fast, the first thing I do isoutsource some of it.
Right, I try to like recruithelp.
(22:25):
That's my go-to strategy.
So when we teach them theirbrains and they get it, then
they can say that back to us.
Like they can say you know, Iwas feeling kind of overwhelmed
so I pushed off starting thisproject and now I'm really
behind.
What should I do about it whenthey know that it doesn't lead
to the level?
(22:45):
This is too much and I justgive up and I can't.
And it's so noxious and I'mjust running away because they
have words to put on theirexperience, the idea of having
like a mixed emotion, the ideaof feeling you know less than or
not good enough compared to theother kids, the more they have
words for that, or even like thesocial skill of how do I
(23:06):
resolve a problem with a friend.
I have a technique of five waysyou can answer back when people
are starting relationalaggression, where they're
starting to mess with you, like,and you want to keep it at the
level of a game before itbecomes bullying, right?
So I look at it as a game oftennis.
You know, you serve the ball tome, I want to serve the ball
right back to you, so there's aserve and return.
So you threw that comment outat me and I immediately had a
(23:29):
response to throw it back to youand we kept it at that playful
level.
So it never turned into thefist fight and the I'm being
bullied and no one in the gradelikes me and no one wants to sit
next to me because we kept itat that level.
The more they know this stuff,the less we have to deal with
like power struggles, classroomdynamics.
You know the undercurrent oftension in the room because
(23:50):
there was some sort of a fightat recess and now we're sitting
and like nobody's ready.
You know when I notice anundercurrent of tension in a
room.
When I come in to do social,emotional learning in schools, I
ask the kids like sounds likethere's stuff on people's minds,
what's going on?
Like, yeah, let's you know,let's clear the air.
And then I always have.
We have two options.
(24:11):
We can clear the air and putthe worries away and focus.
We can resolve this right now.
Or we can make our bodies feelbetter to make our brains ready
for learning.
What do you guys want to do?
Those are always your threeoptions.
How do you make your bodies feel better to
be able to move on withouttalking about it?
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (24:22):
So movement right, like we're going to do
jumping jacks until we're out ofbreath and then we're going to
breathe in for four, hold forfour and blow out as far in the
ABC as I can get Right.
We're going to do a lion faceand then we're going to relax.
We're going to do I'm JuliaCook has some cute ones in her
books for like you do, push,pull, dangle.
Like push down on your chair ashard as you can, pull up on
your chair as hard as you can,and then you dangle.
(24:44):
You know, and the idea is okay.
Now my body feels calmer andbetter, so my brain is ready to
work.
The problem is still the problem, but it's a little distant.
It's not quite as large.
And then I asked him does itseem as large?
You're all freaking out aboutthis.
You know this final that youjust found out about, or this
(25:04):
term paper, or this canceledtrip, or whatever.
Does it seem as big as before?
We started.
And then I just threw that inand then I go on with the lesson
, like it's like a little nuggetand then I go on with the
lesson.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (25:16):
I like that.
I've not heard of those beforein relation to being able to
address tension in the room, tohave that physical.
I've done the brain gymactivities when students get
tired or disinterested or you'vebeen sitting for too long, but
I like connecting it tosomething that is causing them
some tension within the room tohandle it a little bit
differently.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (25:35):
Yeah, I like to really remind them that
anger identifies a problem.
Problems are things withsolutions.
Right, Every problem has asolution.
Therefore, people can't beproblems because people can't be
solved.
Oh, I like that.
So the fight is not you versusme.
Like you cheated, you didn'tcheat.
The problem becomes one ofdifference of opinions regarding
the rules.
I like that Right or differenceof opinions regarding how we
(25:57):
measure what constitutes out ornot Nice.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (26:00):
Yes, right.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (26:00):
Well, that's really what we're arguing
about, or like insufficientresources, right?
One court, two classes thatboth want it.
So this is not a class B is aterrible class and we're class A
and we hate them.
We only have one court that twoclasses want to use.
What's an equitable way that wecan figure this out for the
future, so that we don't wasteevery single recess fighting
over the court?
Dr. Lisa Hassler (26:21):
Right, nice.
And then, when you think aboutteachers having trauma and being
able to manage the stress andemotions that they are going
through, how can teachers managetheir own traumas and stresses
so that it does not affect theirteaching?
So I think the first thing isgoing back to.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (26:40):
Teachers are just grown up kids, right?
Yeah, I think in the 80s we dida lot of like defining trauma
out of existence, like, oh, I'mnot traumatized, it wasn't that
bad, I'm fine, and we thoughtthat that was healthy and strong
.
That's not healthy and strongIf you don't have emotions.
Your emotions have you right.
Yeah, if you're feelingtraumatized and you're feeling
(27:02):
stressed, I think as aresponsible teacher who really
wants to connect, you have tomake yourself available to be
present.
If you're present with yourtrauma, you're not present with
your students.
And that means handling andaddressing your trauma.
That might mean going totherapy, that might mean
journaling, that might meantalking it out with you know
some sort of an advisor whoisn't like a formal therapist.
But the idea is, because traumadoes happen in the future, you
(27:23):
might suddenly becometraumatized by something that
happened years ago and nowyou're overwhelmed.
Talking it through, sortingthat through in your brain,
taking that experience that'stoo big to metabolize and
breaking it down and digestingit, means that experience
doesn't have to keep knocking atthe door.
Something I show adults a lot is, you know, the beginning of the
Harry Potter movie, whenthey're trying to deliver the
(27:45):
letter from Hogwarts to HarryPotter.
Yeah, so they're trying todeliver the letter and Harry has
this evil uncle that doesn'twant to let the letter get
delivered.
So the uncle, like, nails downthe mailbox.
So then it starts coming inthrough the chimney.
So he nails shut the chimney,so it starts coming in through
the window.
Right, and because it's amagical letter, it can.
It has you know many, many,many ways to come in.
When you don't want to acceptthe letter, the letter is going
(28:08):
to keep on coming.
If you just open the door andtake the letter, the letter
stops coming.
So if trauma is knocking atyour door saying like, hi, I'm
here, let it in, and be like,yeah, that was messed up, there
are people who are right nowbecoming traumatized about COVID
.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (28:22):
Wow.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (28:23):
Because we were in survival mode for a lot
of families and it was just likeweird, like my gosh, where's my
next paycheck coming from?
How am I working and having mykids home and managing their
education and managing all ofthese stressors.
And then, like the world wentback to normal and now that
their brains feel safe, they'resaying like suddenly now they're
(28:43):
feeling all this tension andstress that they didn't feel
because now they're safe enoughto feel it.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (28:50):
You just get into that survival mode like
you're autopilot, you just getthrough, and then, when you're
done with it, all of a suddenit's like now you're tired, now
you're exhausted, now you'relooking back, going how did I
ever do that?
And it is.
It's that survival mode.
And then that reflection, thatmoment when you get to kind of
like, oh my gosh, I'm going tofinally stop for a moment.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (29:14):
Then it seems to catch up with you, yeah
, and that's when you have to dosomething about it.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (29:16):
You have a book called Post-Traumatic
Parenting and you teach parentshow to handle their own life's
trauma so they can model greatresilience for their own
children.
And so can you talk about theconcept of post-traumatic
parenting and then your hopesfor the future.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (29:30):
Yeah.
So Post-Traumatic Parenting is,like I said, the book that I
wanted to read when I became amom.
I remember when I gave birth tomy oldest daughter and right,
I'm a clinical childpsychologist and I remember the
nurses in the hospital saying tome like, oh my gosh, wow, she's
the luckiest kid in the world.
She's being raised by someonewho, like, literally at that
point I was doing research ontemperament based parenting and
(29:54):
I remember having this thoughtof like poor kid she has me for
a mom and my PTSD, like mydamage, is definitely going to
damage her.
So I needed this book.
So when I was working on thebook, I started to realize that
trauma does impact our parentingin certain specific and
(30:15):
predictable ways.
But when we acknowledge thoseways and when we actively and
mindfully say, oh, that's thetrauma app in my brain that was
born from my trauma.
It's trying to make me feelsafe again and therefore it's
making me do these parentingbehaviors that I know are
inconsistent with my values.
(30:36):
So I need to recognize thetrauma app, recognize what it's
doing and sort of shut off itspermissions because I will make
me feel safe again.
Like to give a concrete example,I had this with a mom who
herself was a literacy educatorand her son was dyslexic and she
(30:57):
became obsessed with teachinghim how to read.
So she was drilling and killingphonics and she knew that this
is not how our brains learn,like there's a point where his
brain has reached saturation.
I've got to let him be a kid,I've got to let him play.
But her trauma app in her brainwas there's a problem, fix it,
close the tab, make it better.
This has to stop, because hertrauma taught her that when
(31:20):
there is a problem, you have tosolve it immediately.
So she was relating to her sonas a problem instead of her son
as a dyslexic child who willeventually learn how to read.
But it's going to be a bumpyroad because when you have this,
I suppose particularly he hadsurface dyslexia, which meant
phonics instruction anywaywasn't going to work, but that
was a separate conversation.
But her brain was like anytimeshe wasn't trying to actively
(31:44):
teach him how to read, she feltpanicky, like she could be
making dinner, which is what amom should be doing and she's
feeling guilty because she's notdrilling him reading right now.
Yeah, because her trauma appwas like if he can't read by the
time he's a grown up, reallybad things are going to happen,
like he's in second grade.
Children grow up slowly.
You have time.
(32:04):
There are many, many, manypaths to reading.
He will learn how to read,particularly if you don't make
it noxious and you don't drilland kill and you work with him
and you work with a readingspecialist, you'll get there.
But her trauma app couldn't lether let it go, and she knew
this.
She was so frustrated withherself and that's where we go.
Oh, this is not you, it's yourtrauma, right, you're not
(32:26):
parenting your kid right now.
Your trauma is.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (32:34):
You're not teaching your child, your trauma
is.
That's pretty profound.
I look at ACEs and I think tomyself it's life.
We don't get out of lifewithout events.
When it comes down to death,possibly poverty, there's so
many different parts that we atsome point come to.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (32:49):
Yeah, I think there's also in the book I
have a chapter on something Icall S ACEs, which is secret
ACEs.
So there's a lot of things thataren't on the ACE list that are
just as traumatic you knowhaving really critical and cold
parents, having a parent who's afunctional alcoholic so right,
there's no poverty and in factthe family looks perfect on the
(33:11):
surface.
Right, but does that home feelsafe?
We think of the four S's ofattachment.
Right, we want our kids to feelsafe, soothed, seen and secure.
Does the child have any ofthose things in a home with a
functional alcoholic for aparent?
But it's secret becausenobody's in prison and no one's
in poverty and nobody's.
You know, we haven't moved sixtimes and nobody's beating
(33:33):
anybody, maybe with words, maybebehind closed doors, but
there's no safety in that home.
Everybody's walking oneggshells, everybody's scurrying
around being afraid to be seen.
That child can also betraumatized.
We can see the aces, right.
Very often you look at a familyand, like you know, you see a
kid who comes to school with abruise.
You know there's trauma there.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (33:53):
Right.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (33:53):
You know, assuming it's not like a bruise
from gymnastics, but thatsomebody was beating that kid
and we can mobilize.
Yeah, do you see?
Those invisible bruises of mymom just subjected me to a
tirade for an hour about, not,you know, washing the dishes?
(34:16):
precisely the way she wantedthem, watched and told me that
I'm like a waste of oxygen andshe wishes she never gave birth
to me.
And I'm in third grade.
You're not going to see thosebruises.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (34:21):
No, you're not so silent, aces, there's a lot
of good stuff in your book.
It comes out next year.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (34:24):
It comes out in 2025.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (34:26):
Yeah, okay, all right, and there's an ebook
right now.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (34:35):
So now I have an ebook just to start
people people off on managingyour trauma, like just like a
post-traumatic parent survivalguide, like the way you start,
because I think for a lot ofpeople it's traumatic to
acknowledge that they'retraumatized.
I would agree, right, yes.
It's like oh yeah, that was somessed up.
I've had this in so manyparenting classes where someone
will say, or even when I go to aschool and I'm speaking about
trauma and a teacher will comeup to me and she'll say, yeah,
(34:56):
let's say my mom telling me thatI'm I'm a waste of space in
third grade.
Now that I teach third grade,third graders are really little.
Yeah, like I wouldn't speakthat way to a third grader.
Does that mean I'm traumatized?
And it's like you actually justbecame traumatized when you
realized that that was verymessed up and no, you're not a
waste of space and your momshould not have said that to you
(35:16):
.
That's not okay.
And now we can start thehealing process.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (35:21):
You have so many different things that you
do to support and educateparents and teachers, your
website.
You have not only your therapypractice.
You've got classes, targetparenting, target teaching
seminars that you offer.
You've got your eBooks.
You have to tell us how to getthe eBook.
You also have a podcast onpost-traumatic parenting and
(35:42):
you've got a YouTube channel.
So how can people find it?
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (35:46):
So the podcast and the YouTube channel
are both Post-TraumaticParenting, so there's a theme
here.
So they can just find it likethat.
My website is drrobincoslowitz.
com.
When you go to the website, I'mpretty sure there's a pop-up
that says if you sign up for ournewsletter, you get the free
ebook.
I'm also on Instagram at @Drkoslowitzp sychology, and that's
(36:06):
really where the Post-TraumaticParenting community hangs out.
I have much more one-on-oneinteraction with people, like
through the DMs, through theposts.
It's also where I go to letpeople ask me questions and that
generates what we're actuallytalking about, like how do I
handle my five-year-old who'sway too exuberant, so that we
can give those answers from thatpost-traumatic parenting lens,
because I find thatpost-traumatic parents really
(36:29):
struggle with I don't want to bepunitive like my parents.
Traumatic parents reallystruggle with I don't want to be
punitive like my parents, buton the other hand, I do have to
teach my child skills on how tohandle life.
So how do I manage that?
Because my trauma app is likeoh no, no, no, no, you're
heading into like abusiveterritory.
Don't ever do that.
So how do we balance that?
Dr. Lisa Hassler (36:46):
Right, I would like to end with your words Our
traumas can either be ourgreatest problem or our greatest
superpower.
Knowing how to relate to ourtrauma can help us grow as
people and as parents, and Ifound a lot of hope in those
words.
So thank you so much for takingthe time to talk to us about
trauma and to give us all ofyour insights.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (37:07):
Thank you so much for having me.
I love the way your podcastreally helps teachers who are
just passionate about educationand want to keep doing it better
and better.
Because I feel like theteachers want to be able to
succeed.
We just have to give them thetools and free them up to be
able to do that.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (37:28):
If you have a story about what's working in
your schools that you'd like toshare, you can email me at lisa
at drlisahassler.
com, or visit my website at www.
drlisahassler.
com and send me a message.
If you like this podcast,subscribe and tell a friend.
The more people that know, thebigger impact it will have.
And if you find value to thecontent in this podcast,
(37:50):
consider becoming a supporter byclicking on the supporter link
in the show notes.
It is the mission of thispodcast to shine light on the
good in education so that itspreads, affecting positive
change.
So let's keep working togetherto find solutions that focus on
our children's success.
Welcome to the brighter side of education,
research, innovation andresources.
I'm your host, dr Lisa Hassler,here to enlighten and brighten
the classrooms in Americathrough focused conversation on
important topics in education.
In each episode, I discussproblems we as teachers and
parents are facing and whatpeople are doing in their
communities to fix it.
(00:29):
What are the variables and howcan we duplicate it to maximize
student outcomes?
Today's focus is on childhoodtrauma and teacher support.
Childhood trauma can occur whenstudents witness or experience a
frightening, dangerous, violentor life-threatening event
between the ages of 0 and 18.
However, not all overwhelmingand life-threatening experiences
(00:50):
are considered traumatic, aschildren interpret their unique
experiences differently.
A life event that is traumaticfor one child might not be
traumatic for another.
Trauma can be better understoodand defined through the three
E's of trauma event, experienceand effect.
Another related term is adversechildhood experiences, aces.
(01:11):
The ACE study is an ongoingresearch project exploring the
relationship between childhoodtrauma and long-term medical,
health and social consequences.
Results show that approximately65% of children experience at
least one adverse event duringtheir childhood and nearly 40%
two or more ACEs.
Now, the study found that thegreater the number of ACEs a
(01:33):
child is exposed to, the highertheir risk of developing
physical and mental healthproblems throughout their life.
Trauma-informed teachinginvolves a set of classroom
practices that teachers can useto mitigate the impact of trauma
on student learning.
Studies have found thatstudents exposed to these
strategies are better able toregulate their emotions, build
resilience, achieve greateracademic results and maintain
(01:55):
better attention in class.
It begins with understandingwhat trauma is and how it
affects the student's emotions,behavior and learning, enabling
teachers to respond to students'needs and create safe and
supportive learning environments.
Today, we are honored to welcomeDr Robin Koslowitz, a
nationally recognized clinicalpsychologist and expert in
childhood trauma and resilience.
(02:17):
Dr Koslowitz has been alicensed school psychologist
since 2002 and a licensedclinical psychologist since 2017
.
She holds a master's degree inschool psychology and a PhD in
school clinical child psychologyfrom New York University.
In addition to her clinicalwork, dr Koslowitz is a
parenting educator and the hostof the Post-Traumatic Parenting
(02:39):
Podcast.
She brings a wealth ofexperience from her previous
roles as a third and fourthgrade teacher.
Robin joins us today to shareher invaluable insights,
personal journey and to discussher forthcoming book,
post-traumatic Parenting.
Welcome, robin, it's a pleasureto have you with us.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (02:55):
Thank you so much for having me.
I am so excited to talk about,I think, the two topics that I'm
passionate about, which ispost-traumatic parenting and
trauma-informed education,because those are my absolute
passions in life.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (03:09):
Can you share your personal journey and how it
led you to becoming an experton childhood trauma and
resilience?
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (03:15):
Yeah, so I was a kid having the regular
trajectory of life.
I had a very kind ofchronically ill parent growing
up and my father actually diedunder very traumatic
circumstances when I was in highschool and then fast forward to
me being in graduate school and, unlike my classmates at NYU,
(03:36):
where people were very focusedand they really had their
research interests andeverything that they were doing
kind of synchronized, I foundmyself studying so many
different things.
I was studying kids who wereacting out In the clinic I was
working with.
I actually was working withkids who had encopresis and
aneurysis, kids who couldn'tcontrol their bowels, and I was
also at my research lab doingresearch in child temperament
(04:00):
and I remember thinking why am Iso all over the place Like
everybody else is studying, likeyou know, cutting in 35 year
olds or Piagetian cognitivedevelopment concepts in fourth
graders, you know like everyonewas like so consistent and I'm
all over the map.
And it suddenly hit me that whatI'm really studying is the
(04:21):
impact of trauma on childdevelopment and how it impacts
parenting.
Because as a young mom, I hadthis one major question, which
is I know I have PTSD, I knowthat I have like the full blown
condition.
How is my PTSD going to impactmy children?
(04:43):
And, being a research geek, Iwent to the books, because
that's what you do, and therewas nothing, there was no
research on this topic, wow.
And it suddenly hit me like abolt out of the blue like, oh,
I'm studying the impact oftrauma on child development and
parenting.
That's what I'm trying to do,because I'm trying to write the
book that I would like to read.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (05:04):
That's amazing , because it really takes such
inward insight to reflect onyour own patterns and interest,
to see why something so broadand yet so narrow at the same
time, because it's so veryspecific to you, and then how
you're able to help othersthrough that research.
So what kind of signs, then, dochildren exhibit?
(05:25):
What kind of warning signsshould parents and teachers be
noticing?
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (05:29):
So I think the first thing is, before we
even go into signs because Ithink that's important.
I think the first thing we haveto do is demystify the fact
that children do becometraumatized, even children who
seem to be fine on the surface,because a lot of times it's not
about looking for the signs,it's about not looking for the
(05:50):
signs.
Like this child went through atraumatic experience.
They are traumatized.
The fact that they look fine onthe surface is absolutely
meaningless.
I very often in my practice,because I treat a lot of
traumatized kids, I call itbeing a duck.
A duck, you know, looks soserene on the surface of the
(06:11):
water and they're just sort oflike floating there and then
under the water their legs arepedaling furiously and we only
look at the surface.
So we have to know that if achild experienced a traumatic
event and we're going to knowthat if the community
experienced a traumatic eventand the child was part of that
community like there was aschool shooting in the community
, or even a child in the school,maybe a few grades away, you
(06:33):
know, died of suddenly or diedof cancer or there was something
the assumption has to be thatthat experience was too big for
the kid's brain to metabolize.
Even if they seem fine, wedon't want to assume that
they're fine.
Because if you looked at me whenI was in high school, my way of
handling trauma is I becomemore productive, I hyper focus
(06:54):
on work because I'm good at work, I'm a geek, I'm good at
research.
So if you look at Freud'sdefinition of success in life to
live, love and work like I wasworking.
I was getting straight A's.
I was the captain of like theservice team in my school.
We had like a community serviceorganization.
I was the president of it and Iwas on the honor roll and I had
(07:15):
friends on every level.
I looked fine.
I was so very not fine but noone thought to say, oh, but is
she really fine?
Because I looked fine.
So I almost feel like when welook for the signs, if the signs
aren't there, we think, oh, thechild's fine.
If we define trauma as anexperience that's too big for
(07:36):
the brain to metabolize which ishow I like to look at trauma
then if an experience happenedthat you would say that is too
big for a brain to metabolize,then it's our job to sort of
help them digest it.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (07:48):
Okay.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (07:49):
And then there are also signs, obviously,
when you see a sudden change ina child, when you see
mysterious behavior, patternsthat don't make sense.
So to me, when a child is beingdefiant, when a child is, you
know, has every indicator thatthey could be successful in
school and yet they're not.
To me, that's one of two things.
There's either an invisibleskill that's lacking.
(08:09):
I was just in a school todayconsulting and there's a young
man who has an IQ that's off thecharts.
It's literally untestable.
I've tested a lot of kids.
I have never tested a kid thisbright, wow.
And he wasn't even anevaluation case of me.
I just wanted like to likesatisfy my own curiosity.
So like I pulled out theStanford banana and I was trying
one of the more challengingsubtests.
(08:31):
He's sealing out, meaning therewere no more questions to ask
him and he still was doing well,wow.
But the very basics of how toread a situation he didn't have.
This child is on the spectrum,so we have like a neurodiversity
issue.
So there we have a situationwhere it's like he lacks the
skill to handle this.
(08:51):
But if it wasn't that, if hewas neurotypical, and yet we're
seeing these baffling behaviors,that just doesn't make sense.
We're going to assume thatsomething is lacking that
child's ability to be successful.
If it isn't a skills deficit,then we're going to assume that
something is lacking thatchild's ability to be successful
.
If it isn't a skills deficit,then we're looking at trauma.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (09:09):
Okay, that makes sense.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (09:11):
And that's what I'm always looking at.
Do you get this Like seriously,looking at this boy and saying,
like in the words of DaleCarnegie, do you know how to win
friends and influence people?
No, you do not.
That's because we're dealingwith a neuro-atypicalityity.
Okay, we're going to teach youthen how to win friends and
influence people, because thenyou will do well in life.
And if you can do that in a waythat speaks to someone with
(09:31):
that level of an iq, you can dothat.
But if not, if, if there's noneuro atypicality that's causing
this, then and very often whenthat happens and I'm consulting
in a school, I'll say somethingand the person will say, oh yeah
, well, I mean, his grandma washis primary caregiver, like she
(09:52):
was basically the parent in thehome.
She died two years ago, but hehandled that fine.
So one of two things either no,he didn't Right, and now you're
starting to see it, orsometimes trauma actually
happens in the future, not thepast.
So what happens is your brainhas to hit the developmental
stage to comprehend whathappened to you, and then you
first become traumatized.
(10:13):
So maybe grandma died when hewas six and he didn't understand
the permanence of death, butnow he's eight and a half and
his brain can comprehendpermanence and suddenly he's
traumatized because it justhappened.
Grandma did not actually dietwo years ago.
Grandma died yesterday becausehis brain finally caught up to
what happened.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (10:32):
I never thought about it that way.
That makes so much sense.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (10:35):
Right.
And then we say they're beingmanipulative.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (10:37):
Those things happen so often, you would
wonder.
Well, yes, this did happen, butit was a while ago, and so now
it must be something new,something different, something
current.
I'd never thought about thebrain catching up to that when
it comes to developmentallybeing aware of a concept like
death.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (10:55):
It also sometimes is something new, in
consonance with something thathappened in the past.
I consult in some high schoolsand I had a girl who had lost I
feel like she lost her mother,maybe like in third grade.
She came into ninth grade andsuddenly she's saying things to
teachers like, well, I couldn'tdo my paper because I was really
(11:18):
sad because my mother died, andthe teacher thinking like this
happened last week, and then theschool had this idea that she's
being manipulative, like she'susing her story to get away with
something where I'm able tolook at the teacher and say
she's in a new situation, soit's new and unfamiliar, so she
feels vulnerable and unsafe andunsure of her capacity to handle
things.
Maybe she's hearing friends say, yeah, so my mom and I sat down
(11:41):
and we figured out a plan forthis term paper together and it
suddenly hit her that shedoesn't have a mom to do that
with.
And now it's happening.
Maybe her mother didn't die inthird grade, maybe her mother
died yesterday.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (11:53):
Yeah.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (11:53):
Right.
So it's the new stressorcoupled with the old fact
together that now she'straumatized.
And I actually, in thatsituation, sat down with a kid
who I had never met before and Iasked her.
I said, like tell me aboutwhat's going on.
And it's literally what shesaid.
Like the principal is shockedthat I like predicted it.
She's like I'm in high schoolnow and my friend's mothers are
(12:17):
picking them up or they're goingout, or there's like a one of
the clubs in the school ishaving like a mother-daughter
brunch and I have who to invite.
Like I'll invite my aunt, butit's, I don't have a mother.
It's hitting her now.
It was something about thetransition from elementary
school to high school and maybeher brain maturing and becoming
an adolescent that she wasprocessing it now.
(12:39):
So when the school understoodthat this is not an attempt at
manipulation, this is somethingelse entirely, their entire
focus on her changed because theprincipal was going like I
believe in tough love andaccountability and we're not
going to do her any favors if welet her go down this path.
I said I believe inaccountability, I believe in
love, I believe in making peoplebe responsible within the level
(13:00):
that their brain is capable ofhandling.
This is above that level.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (13:05):
Yeah.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (13:05):
Yeah and right.
Trauma is too big for yourbrain to metabolize.
This is too big.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (13:10):
When those things happen, you do some
target teaching with teachers.
Let's say you have this childand they've had this trauma.
I could only imagine howdistracting and how difficult it
is to be able to focus onlearning when things like that
are going through your brain andyou're being brought into this
trauma zone where maybe you'rethinking about, like oh, they're
talking about their mom and I'msitting here and I'm supposed
(13:32):
to be learning about additionand all I can think about is how
I don't have my mom right now.
How does a teacher cope withthat when it comes to helping
that child be able to learn andstay focused?
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (13:45):
It's such a good question.
I find that kids actually dovery well when you explain that
to them.
When you say to a child we wantto stress you out to the point
that you grow that analogy ofhow a muscle grows right, we
mildly rip the muscle fiber sothat more muscle fiber comes.
Even third graders can get that, but high school kids can
definitely get that.
(14:05):
I want to stress you out alittle bit.
I want you to be in that zoneof I'm trying, kind of failing,
trying again Now I got it.
I want you to be in thatlearning zone.
But when you're in that stresszone where it's too much, I need
you to be able to signal to meso that we can figure something
out, so that we can come up witha plan and then, depending on
(14:26):
the kid, we can individualize aplan of what we're going to do.
So then the child has to knowbecause if I help you with every
little thing, then you neverlearn how to handle adversity.
But when it's too big for you,you need to be able to tell me
that when there is something onyour brain.
And I consult with a lot ofschools and I had a school with
a third grade class where theteacher was really having a hard
(14:48):
time engaging them and therewas just like the class was all
over the place and there were alot of kids coping with some
serious adversity.
The simplest thing that weswitched was this idea that if
anybody has something a littletoo big on their brain that's
making it hard to learn Duringthe first like 10 minutes of the
day, like after the teacher didwhatever she did to start the
day.
If you need to, you can go tothe back of the room.
(15:09):
There's an MP3 player you cantalk into, like this recorder.
You can talk your two big worryinto it and then you can go
down and then you can go back toyour seat and the teacher is
going to listen to it.
At some point it became noteven in the day, it became some
point in the week and one we'retwo third grade classrooms.
One teacher was like this,they're just going to be silly,
they're going to whistle into it, they're going to this that.
(15:30):
The other teacher was likewe're going to try it.
So she was willing to try and,yeah, you had one or two kids
who blew off a little steam bymaking weird animal noises into
the MP3 player and then sittingback down, great.
So you got to play with thesystem.
I don't mind Play with thesystem.
(15:52):
This is what I want you to do,hey, if you make some weird
farting sounds into the mp3player and then you sit down, um
, and then you're like ready tolearn.
Fabulous, right, right, likeyou got that out.
Yeah, with farting glasses, Idon't care.
And then kids were saying theirworries and we taught them this
idea that you can sort of putyour worries into a box, focus
on what's going on in class, andthen you tell that part of you
like now I can check in with youlater.
And and then during social andemotional learning, we talked
about the idea that whateverthat worry was, that you said
(16:14):
into the box do you have anadult that you can go to with
that?
Who are your adults in school?
If it's a school-based issue,who are your adults at home?
And here and there we figuredout there were one or two kids
who didn't have an adult at home.
And then that meant now we knowexactly how to refer them
because like, oh, this kid needsmuch more support, we need to
get the school counselorinvolved, because they're saying
(16:36):
well, I would talk to my mom,but she's so stressed out about
the divorce that, like if I tellher anything upsetting about
the girl who's making fun of me,I won't sit next to me at
recess.
I'll stress her out too much.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (16:47):
Yeah.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (16:48):
So okay, that's why we have school
counselors, like you justreferred yourself.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (16:52):
I think that sometimes teachers they're
looking at an issue and they'rewondering is this something that
I can handle on my own?
How do you know when it is toobig for you and you need to go
to the counselor or you need tobring in a professional into
that situation to be able tohelp that traumatized child?
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (17:09):
So I think, the more we bring that social
and emotional learning into theclassroom, where the kids
themselves are learning abouttheir stress response, they're
understanding the idea of zonesof regulation, they're
understanding how emotionsfunction, they get all of that.
They know how to lower anuncomfortable emotion if they
need to, how to raise a positiveemotion if they need to.
Like they understand their ownbrains, like I call it the
(17:30):
science of me, right, likethat's what we're learning.
I had this in a school wherethe principal's very into his
fundamentals and he's like well,we teach.
Like reading, writing, math, weteach.
I was like psychology is ascience.
It's a soft science, but it's ascience, trust me.
I have a PhD from NYU.
They teach stuff there.
We don't flower a rage, right,like psychology is a science.
(17:51):
This is psychology.
We're going to learn how ourbrains work.
The more we know how our brainswork, the more we know how our
bodies work, the more we cantake ownership of that
information.
When a child says I get all ofthat and I still can't, that's
when we say okay, you need aprofessional.
So I try an intervention with akid who's a perfectionist and I
say you know what?
What you're going to do is weall agree.
(18:14):
So no one's going to be judgingyou.
The teacher's giving out 10math examples.
You're only allowed to do eightof them and one of them has to
be intentionally wrong and oneof them has to be written in
green crayon, right, whatever.
And the kid's like I totallyget it.
The Mr Worry in my brain isbossing me around and I don't
want to let Mr Worry that kid.
Actually it was ProfessorPerfectionist.
So like Professor Perfectionistis bossing me around, so I this
(18:34):
was something I advised theteacher to do like, not as a
therapist, as a schoolconsultant.
So you know, professorPerfectionist is bossing me
around, I'm going to boss heraround.
I tried.
I can't do it.
All right, now we need aprofessional, because if it's
too big for me to handle, thenwe need a professional.
If that intervention likeprofessor perfectionist and the
teacher giving silly ideas of,like you're going to mess up,
(18:54):
you're going to write itbackwards and the kid can do it,
great, then that's within theclassroom setting, provided, of
course, that we're freeing theteacher up to have an individual
relationship with her students.
If you have a teacher who'sgoing from classroom to
classroom with 60 kids in theclass and she has 30 minutes to
teach math, then we're notsetting her or the kids up for
success.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (19:13):
No, you're not going to be able to have that
connection or know your studentswell enough to be able to have
those types of conversations andbe aware of what is different
for them when it comes to theirbehavior.
I had a child whose father haddied and every once in a while
something would happen and hewould get so angry and then you
know, as you would approach him,he would go to the back of the
(19:35):
room, sit in the corner and justcry and you couldn't even go
near him.
So at that point we would justallow him to have that space and
calm down and he was able torejoin the classroom when he
knew he was calm again.
But at that point, how does ateacher regain control of a
class when something like thathas happened?
(19:56):
What kind of things would yourecommend?
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (19:58):
So I think we make this mistake of thinking
like kids don't notice thingsright.
I like to talk about elephantsin the room, so saying it looks
like James's emotions got waytoo big for his body.
We're going to give him timeand what I like to do how I cue
kids to get their attention backis show me without words that
you're interested in what I haveto say.
Oh right, and then like,automatically shoulders go up,
(20:19):
back and down, whatever.
And then I say, now show methat you're interested in what I
have to say on steroids and Iteach them to like, sparkle
their eyes at me.
Oh, you know, I do that.
I always do this idea where Iwant to give ownership to the
kids.
So I always say to them youthink that your teacher teaches
you, but you actually teach yourteacher, because when you sit
there and you look like you'reready to learn and you sparkle
(20:39):
your eyes, then you're teachingme that you are a student that I
want to engage with, that youwant to learn.
When a kid says to me my teacherplays favorites, I say okay,
did you teach her that you'reher favorite?
Yet it's on you to teach herthat.
You can teach her that yousparkle your eyes at her.
You sit there in class with alistening posture.
Most teachers yeah, will therebe some outliers who honestly
(21:04):
went into teaching for all thewrong reasons.
Of course I can't account forall of that, but on the whole,
most teachers teach because theyreally like teaching kids.
So you teach her to like you,she will like you.
So I say that to the class.
I say we're going to give himthe space to contain his
emotions.
The rest of us you're going toshow me without words that
you're interested and you'regoing to do him the respect of
(21:24):
giving him his space, and then Iwould have a conversation with
him about everything he didright in that situation.
You know, you were really mad.
You're mad, got so big andinstead of lashing out and
hurting someone, you went to theback of the room.
You made that really goodchoice.
That's amazing.
That's an amount ofself-regulation that some
grownups don't have.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (21:43):
So how can social emotional learning then
be a factor that prevents astressful situation from
becoming traumatic?
So I like to really have kidsunderstand their stress response
and understand the idea thatwhen something's stressful, it's
not dangerous.
Right, we have to getcomfortable.
Being uncomfortable when it'sdangerous is when it feels too
(22:04):
big, too much, too fast and I'mall alone in coping with it.
If I have those factors, thatmeans I need the help of someone
else and there's no shame inthat.
That means like if I'm smart,I'm going to get help.
When I'm dealing with somethingthat's too big, too much, too
fast, the first thing I do isoutsource some of it.
Right, I try to like recruithelp.
(22:25):
That's my go-to strategy.
So when we teach them theirbrains and they get it, then
they can say that back to us.
Like they can say you know, Iwas feeling kind of overwhelmed
so I pushed off starting thisproject and now I'm really
behind.
What should I do about it whenthey know that it doesn't lead
to the level?
(22:45):
This is too much and I justgive up and I can't.
And it's so noxious and I'mjust running away because they
have words to put on theirexperience, the idea of having
like a mixed emotion, the ideaof feeling you know less than or
not good enough compared to theother kids, the more they have
words for that, or even like thesocial skill of how do I
(23:06):
resolve a problem with a friend.
I have a technique of five waysyou can answer back when people
are starting relationalaggression, where they're
starting to mess with you, like,and you want to keep it at the
level of a game before itbecomes bullying, right?
So I look at it as a game oftennis.
You know, you serve the ball tome, I want to serve the ball
right back to you, so there's aserve and return.
So you threw that comment outat me and I immediately had a
(23:29):
response to throw it back to youand we kept it at that playful
level.
So it never turned into thefist fight and the I'm being
bullied and no one in the gradelikes me and no one wants to sit
next to me because we kept itat that level.
The more they know this stuff,the less we have to deal with
like power struggles, classroomdynamics.
You know the undercurrent oftension in the room because
(23:50):
there was some sort of a fightat recess and now we're sitting
and like nobody's ready.
You know when I notice anundercurrent of tension in a
room.
When I come in to do social,emotional learning in schools, I
ask the kids like sounds likethere's stuff on people's minds,
what's going on?
Like, yeah, let's you know,let's clear the air.
And then I always have.
We have two options.
(24:11):
We can clear the air and putthe worries away and focus.
We can resolve this right now.
Or we can make our bodies feelbetter to make our brains ready
for learning.
What do you guys want to do?
Those are always your threeoptions.
How do you make your bodies feel better to
be able to move on withouttalking about it?
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (24:22):
So movement right, like we're going to do
jumping jacks until we're out ofbreath and then we're going to
breathe in for four, hold forfour and blow out as far in the
ABC as I can get Right.
We're going to do a lion faceand then we're going to relax.
We're going to do I'm JuliaCook has some cute ones in her
books for like you do, push,pull, dangle.
Like push down on your chair ashard as you can, pull up on
your chair as hard as you can,and then you dangle.
(24:44):
You know, and the idea is okay.
Now my body feels calmer andbetter, so my brain is ready to
work.
The problem is still the problem, but it's a little distant.
It's not quite as large.
And then I asked him does itseem as large?
You're all freaking out aboutthis.
You know this final that youjust found out about, or this
(25:04):
term paper, or this canceledtrip, or whatever.
Does it seem as big as before?
We started.
And then I just threw that inand then I go on with the lesson
, like it's like a little nuggetand then I go on with the
lesson.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (25:16):
I like that.
I've not heard of those beforein relation to being able to
address tension in the room, tohave that physical.
I've done the brain gymactivities when students get
tired or disinterested or you'vebeen sitting for too long, but
I like connecting it tosomething that is causing them
some tension within the room tohandle it a little bit
differently.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (25:35):
Yeah, I like to really remind them that
anger identifies a problem.
Problems are things withsolutions.
Right, Every problem has asolution.
Therefore, people can't beproblems because people can't be
solved.
Oh, I like that.
So the fight is not you versusme.
Like you cheated, you didn'tcheat.
The problem becomes one ofdifference of opinions regarding
the rules.
I like that Right or differenceof opinions regarding how we
(25:57):
measure what constitutes out ornot Nice.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (26:00):
Yes, right.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (26:00):
Well, that's really what we're arguing
about, or like insufficientresources, right?
One court, two classes thatboth want it.
So this is not a class B is aterrible class and we're class A
and we hate them.
We only have one court that twoclasses want to use.
What's an equitable way that wecan figure this out for the
future, so that we don't wasteevery single recess fighting
over the court?
Dr. Lisa Hassler (26:21):
Right, nice.
And then, when you think aboutteachers having trauma and being
able to manage the stress andemotions that they are going
through, how can teachers managetheir own traumas and stresses
so that it does not affect theirteaching?
So I think the first thing isgoing back to.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (26:40):
Teachers are just grown up kids, right?
Yeah, I think in the 80s we dida lot of like defining trauma
out of existence, like, oh, I'mnot traumatized, it wasn't that
bad, I'm fine, and we thoughtthat that was healthy and strong
.
That's not healthy and strongIf you don't have emotions.
Your emotions have you right.
Yeah, if you're feelingtraumatized and you're feeling
(27:02):
stressed, I think as aresponsible teacher who really
wants to connect, you have tomake yourself available to be
present.
If you're present with yourtrauma, you're not present with
your students.
And that means handling andaddressing your trauma.
That might mean going totherapy, that might mean
journaling, that might meantalking it out with you know
some sort of an advisor whoisn't like a formal therapist.
But the idea is, because traumadoes happen in the future, you
(27:23):
might suddenly becometraumatized by something that
happened years ago and nowyou're overwhelmed.
Talking it through, sortingthat through in your brain,
taking that experience that'stoo big to metabolize and
breaking it down and digestingit, means that experience
doesn't have to keep knocking atthe door.
Something I show adults a lot is, you know, the beginning of the
Harry Potter movie, whenthey're trying to deliver the
(27:45):
letter from Hogwarts to HarryPotter.
Yeah, so they're trying todeliver the letter and Harry has
this evil uncle that doesn'twant to let the letter get
delivered.
So the uncle, like, nails downthe mailbox.
So then it starts coming inthrough the chimney.
So he nails shut the chimney,so it starts coming in through
the window.
Right, and because it's amagical letter, it can.
It has you know many, many,many ways to come in.
When you don't want to acceptthe letter, the letter is going
(28:08):
to keep on coming.
If you just open the door andtake the letter, the letter
stops coming.
So if trauma is knocking atyour door saying like, hi, I'm
here, let it in, and be like,yeah, that was messed up, there
are people who are right nowbecoming traumatized about COVID
.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (28:22):
Wow.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (28:23):
Because we were in survival mode for a lot
of families and it was just likeweird, like my gosh, where's my
next paycheck coming from?
How am I working and having mykids home and managing their
education and managing all ofthese stressors.
And then, like the world wentback to normal and now that
their brains feel safe, they'resaying like suddenly now they're
(28:43):
feeling all this tension andstress that they didn't feel
because now they're safe enoughto feel it.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (28:50):
You just get into that survival mode like
you're autopilot, you just getthrough, and then, when you're
done with it, all of a suddenit's like now you're tired, now
you're exhausted, now you'relooking back, going how did I
ever do that?
And it is.
It's that survival mode.
And then that reflection, thatmoment when you get to kind of
like, oh my gosh, I'm going tofinally stop for a moment.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (29:14):
Then it seems to catch up with you, yeah
, and that's when you have to dosomething about it.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (29:16):
You have a book called Post-Traumatic
Parenting and you teach parentshow to handle their own life's
trauma so they can model greatresilience for their own
children.
And so can you talk about theconcept of post-traumatic
parenting and then your hopesfor the future.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (29:30):
Yeah.
So Post-Traumatic Parenting is,like I said, the book that I
wanted to read when I became amom.
I remember when I gave birth tomy oldest daughter and right,
I'm a clinical childpsychologist and I remember the
nurses in the hospital saying tome like, oh my gosh, wow, she's
the luckiest kid in the world.
She's being raised by someonewho, like, literally at that
point I was doing research ontemperament based parenting and
(29:54):
I remember having this thoughtof like poor kid she has me for
a mom and my PTSD, like mydamage, is definitely going to
damage her.
So I needed this book.
So when I was working on thebook, I started to realize that
trauma does impact our parentingin certain specific and
(30:15):
predictable ways.
But when we acknowledge thoseways and when we actively and
mindfully say, oh, that's thetrauma app in my brain that was
born from my trauma.
It's trying to make me feelsafe again and therefore it's
making me do these parentingbehaviors that I know are
inconsistent with my values.
(30:36):
So I need to recognize thetrauma app, recognize what it's
doing and sort of shut off itspermissions because I will make
me feel safe again.
Like to give a concrete example,I had this with a mom who
herself was a literacy educatorand her son was dyslexic and she
(30:57):
became obsessed with teachinghim how to read.
So she was drilling and killingphonics and she knew that this
is not how our brains learn,like there's a point where his
brain has reached saturation.
I've got to let him be a kid,I've got to let him play.
But her trauma app in her brainwas there's a problem, fix it,
close the tab, make it better.
This has to stop, because hertrauma taught her that when
(31:20):
there is a problem, you have tosolve it immediately.
So she was relating to her sonas a problem instead of her son
as a dyslexic child who willeventually learn how to read.
But it's going to be a bumpyroad because when you have this,
I suppose particularly he hadsurface dyslexia, which meant
phonics instruction anywaywasn't going to work, but that
was a separate conversation.
But her brain was like anytimeshe wasn't trying to actively
(31:44):
teach him how to read, she feltpanicky, like she could be
making dinner, which is what amom should be doing and she's
feeling guilty because she's notdrilling him reading right now.
Yeah, because her trauma appwas like if he can't read by the
time he's a grown up, reallybad things are going to happen,
like he's in second grade.
Children grow up slowly.
You have time.
(32:04):
There are many, many, manypaths to reading.
He will learn how to read,particularly if you don't make
it noxious and you don't drilland kill and you work with him
and you work with a readingspecialist, you'll get there.
But her trauma app couldn't lether let it go, and she knew
this.
She was so frustrated withherself and that's where we go.
Oh, this is not you, it's yourtrauma, right, you're not
(32:26):
parenting your kid right now.
Your trauma is.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (32:34):
You're not teaching your child, your trauma
is.
That's pretty profound.
I look at ACEs and I think tomyself it's life.
We don't get out of lifewithout events.
When it comes down to death,possibly poverty, there's so
many different parts that we atsome point come to.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (32:49):
Yeah, I think there's also in the book I
have a chapter on something Icall S ACEs, which is secret
ACEs.
So there's a lot of things thataren't on the ACE list that are
just as traumatic you knowhaving really critical and cold
parents, having a parent who's afunctional alcoholic so right,
there's no poverty and in factthe family looks perfect on the
(33:11):
surface.
Right, but does that home feelsafe?
We think of the four S's ofattachment.
Right, we want our kids to feelsafe, soothed, seen and secure.
Does the child have any ofthose things in a home with a
functional alcoholic for aparent?
But it's secret becausenobody's in prison and no one's
in poverty and nobody's.
You know, we haven't moved sixtimes and nobody's beating
(33:33):
anybody, maybe with words, maybebehind closed doors, but
there's no safety in that home.
Everybody's walking oneggshells, everybody's scurrying
around being afraid to be seen.
That child can also betraumatized.
We can see the aces, right.
Very often you look at a familyand, like you know, you see a
kid who comes to school with abruise.
You know there's trauma there.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (33:53):
Right.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (33:53):
You know, assuming it's not like a bruise
from gymnastics, but thatsomebody was beating that kid
and we can mobilize.
Yeah, do you see?
Those invisible bruises of mymom just subjected me to a
tirade for an hour about, not,you know, washing the dishes?
(34:16):
precisely the way she wantedthem, watched and told me that
I'm like a waste of oxygen andshe wishes she never gave birth
to me.
And I'm in third grade.
You're not going to see thosebruises.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (34:21):
No, you're not so silent, aces, there's a lot
of good stuff in your book.
It comes out next year.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (34:24):
It comes out in 2025.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (34:26):
Yeah, okay, all right, and there's an ebook
right now.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (34:35):
So now I have an ebook just to start
people people off on managingyour trauma, like just like a
post-traumatic parent survivalguide, like the way you start,
because I think for a lot ofpeople it's traumatic to
acknowledge that they'retraumatized.
I would agree, right, yes.
It's like oh yeah, that was somessed up.
I've had this in so manyparenting classes where someone
will say, or even when I go to aschool and I'm speaking about
trauma and a teacher will comeup to me and she'll say, yeah,
(34:56):
let's say my mom telling me thatI'm I'm a waste of space in
third grade.
Now that I teach third grade,third graders are really little.
Yeah, like I wouldn't speakthat way to a third grader.
Does that mean I'm traumatized?
And it's like you actually justbecame traumatized when you
realized that that was verymessed up and no, you're not a
waste of space and your momshould not have said that to you
(35:16):
.
That's not okay.
And now we can start thehealing process.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (35:21):
You have so many different things that you
do to support and educateparents and teachers, your
website.
You have not only your therapypractice.
You've got classes, targetparenting, target teaching
seminars that you offer.
You've got your eBooks.
You have to tell us how to getthe eBook.
You also have a podcast onpost-traumatic parenting and
(35:42):
you've got a YouTube channel.
So how can people find it?
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (35:46):
So the podcast and the YouTube channel
are both Post-TraumaticParenting, so there's a theme
here.
So they can just find it likethat.
My website is drrobincoslowitz.
com.
When you go to the website, I'mpretty sure there's a pop-up
that says if you sign up for ournewsletter, you get the free
ebook.
I'm also on Instagram at @Drkoslowitzp sychology, and that's
(36:06):
really where the Post-TraumaticParenting community hangs out.
I have much more one-on-oneinteraction with people, like
through the DMs, through theposts.
It's also where I go to letpeople ask me questions and that
generates what we're actuallytalking about, like how do I
handle my five-year-old who'sway too exuberant, so that we
can give those answers from thatpost-traumatic parenting lens,
because I find thatpost-traumatic parents really
(36:29):
struggle with I don't want to bepunitive like my parents.
Traumatic parents reallystruggle with I don't want to be
punitive like my parents, buton the other hand, I do have to
teach my child skills on how tohandle life.
So how do I manage that?
Because my trauma app is likeoh no, no, no, no, you're
heading into like abusiveterritory.
Don't ever do that.
So how do we balance that?
Dr. Lisa Hassler (36:46):
Right, I would like to end with your words Our
traumas can either be ourgreatest problem or our greatest
superpower.
Knowing how to relate to ourtrauma can help us grow as
people and as parents, and Ifound a lot of hope in those
words.
So thank you so much for takingthe time to talk to us about
trauma and to give us all ofyour insights.
Dr. Robin Koslowitz (37:07):
Thank you so much for having me.
I love the way your podcastreally helps teachers who are
just passionate about educationand want to keep doing it better
and better.
Because I feel like theteachers want to be able to
succeed.
We just have to give them thetools and free them up to be
able to do that.
Dr. Lisa Hassler (37:28):
If you have a story about what's working in
your schools that you'd like toshare, you can email me at lisa
at drlisahassler.
com, or visit my website at www.
drlisahassler.
com and send me a message.
If you like this podcast,subscribe and tell a friend.
The more people that know, thebigger impact it will have.
And if you find value to thecontent in this podcast,
(37:50):
consider becoming a supporter byclicking on the supporter link
in the show notes.
It is the mission of thispodcast to shine light on the
good in education so that itspreads, affecting positive
change.
So let's keep working togetherto find solutions that focus on
our children's success.
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