July 12, 2023 • 42 mins
Sibling Loss and Running with Grief: Jen's Grief Marathon
In this episode, surviving sibling, Jen, shares her transformative journey of grief and advocacy following the suicide loss of her brother and her inspiring process to run marathons to honor his memory and others who have died by suicide. She is a mental health advocate, marathoner, and writer. Jen also is currently serving on the Massachusetts chapter of the board member of American Foundation for Suicide Prevention (AFSP).
- Discover how Jen’s journey of walking and running marathons helped her process her sibling loss grief and connect with others experiencing suicide and other loss.
- Early in her sibling loss journey, Jen tried to “be strong” and later realized that this was not a helpful approach. Listen to hear how her grief process has changed over time.
Content Warning: Information presented in this episode may be upsetting to some people. It contains talk of suicide.
- If you are in the US and would like support for yourself or someone else with substance use, suicidal thoughts, or other topics discussed in this episode, please call SAMHSA’s National Helpline at 1-800-662-HELP (4357) or Text your 5-digit ZIP Code to 435748 (HELP4U) or call a warmline. For more immediate crisis call 911, 988, or go to the nearest emergency room.
- If you believe you are witnessing an overdose, call 911 or your country’s emergency number immediately even if you are administering Narcan.
- In the USA an updated directory of warmlines by state can be found at https://warmline.org/warmdir.html
- A warmline directory for trained peer supports in over 20 countries can be found at https://www.supportiv.com/tools/international-resources-crisis-and-warmlines (some of these may be hotlines).
- For more information on the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention: https://afsp.org/
More information on Jen is available at:
Her Website: http://www.jenniferhoye.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jen.and.pen/
If you would like more information or to share your own adult sibling loss story, please contact me, Dr. Angela Dean, at contact@thebrokenpack.com or go to our website, thebrokenpack.com.
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Thank you!
Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT
Credits:
The Broken Pack™ Podcast is produced by 27 Elephants Media
"If Tomorrow Starts Without Me" © ℗ 2023, 2024
Written by Joe Mylward and Brian Dean
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Dean (00:12):
Hello and welcome to the Broken Pack, a podcast
focused on giving adultsurvivors of sibling loss, a
platform to share their storiesand to be heard.
Something that many sibling losssurvivors state that they never
have had.
Sibling loss is misunderstood.
The broken Pack exists to changethat and to support survivors.
(00:32):
I'm your host, Dr.
Angela Dean.
Content warning (00:37):
information presented in this episode may be
triggering to some people.
It contains talk of suicide.
I'm so excited to share thisconversation in which I spoke
with Jen Hoy.
Jen shares the story of losingher brother Teddy to suicide and
how she's been making meaningfrom that loss and learning to
live with her grief.
She's a mental health advocate,a marathoner and a writer.
(00:57):
She's also currently serving onthe board for the Massachusetts
chapter of the AmericanFoundation for Suicide
Prevention.
We discuss how beginning to walkfor her own peace has culminated
in running marathons to honorthe memories of others loved
ones who have been lost for manyreasons, primarily suicide.
Enjoy the episode.
(01:25):
Thank you for joining us today.
I was wondering what you wannatell our listeners about
yourself.
Jen Hoye (01:31):
Thank you for having me.
my name's Jen Hoye.
I am a passionate mental healthand suicide prevention advocate.
I'm a board member of AmericanFoundation for Suicide
Prevention Massachusettschapter, and I'm a suicide loss
survivor.
My brother, Teddy, died in Mayof 2017 and the experience of
(01:52):
losing Teddy and working throughthe grief and the trauma has
really set me on a path, ofpurpose.
And I, feel like I carry himwith me every day.
Dr. Dean (02:04):
Mm-hmm.
That's beautiful.
Is that how you got involved inthe, A F S P,
Jen Hoye (02:10):
Yeah.
A F S P.
Yep.
it, it is, I, I, I was having aparticularly rough kind of grief
night, well into the Covidpandemic, and I was up at late
at night scrolling through theinternet as we do at 2:00 AM.
and I saw this thing about amarathon in a month, and I
thought, Right now I'm walkingabout a marathon every couple of
(02:32):
days, so this would be a reallygreat way to honor my brother's
memory.
and you know what?
because I do a marathon everycouple days, why don't we commit
to 300 miles?
because my brother, he would'vewalked a million miles even if
it,
Dr. Dean (02:49):
Mm-hmm.
Jen Hoye (02:50):
It meant he could help alleviate someone's pain, even
for a small moment.
So I felt like that that was theright choice to do.
And once I got involved with A FS P, I really found a community
of, of like-minded people andpeople in this horrible club
that we're in, but who inspiredme and brought me tremendous
(03:10):
hope.
Dr. Dean (03:12):
Sounds like a good fit for you.
Jen Hoye (03:14):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (03:15):
before we talk about the loss and your grief and all
of those things, what do youwant us to know about Teddy?
I.
Jen Hoye (03:21):
Oh.
so my brother Teddy was bornfour months early in 1975.
he weighed half a pound.
he's a miracle.
he had a twin who didn't livemuch longer after they were
born.
My brother and I, Teddy and Iwere super close.
we fought every single day, butI was always his protector.
(03:45):
That was, that was my job, thatI took it very seriously.
and even into adulthood we werevery close.
We texted or talked multipletimes a day.
Usually just silly stuff becauseone thing about my brother is he
was a clown.
He was a clown from when he wasa little kid, into adulthood.
He helped my kids plan elaborateApril fool's jokes just to get
(04:10):
me riled up.
But he had so many friends andso many people who loved him,
because he was just a kind andgentle soul.
And that's something that I wasalways amazed by because I was
like the, the rough, toughsister.
And he was this sweet andgentle, blonde-haired angel
(04:31):
little boy.
And I was like out beatingpeople up if they made fun of
him when.
Dr. Dean (04:37):
So you were the protective older sister,
Jen Hoye (04:39):
Yes.
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (04:40):
so you really lost two siblings.
Jen Hoye (04:43):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (04:44):
Hmm.
Were you highly aware of thatbefore you lost Teddy?
That you lost his brother, or,your brother as
Jen Hoye (04:51):
well, we didn't talk about his twin Joseph much, if
at all, growing up.
and my brother was a handful.
Like we were punished probablyevery day, he would just do
things impulsively, that we allfound amusing, but probably not.
Like he would spray theneighbors with the hose just to
(05:13):
see what would happen when theywere on their way to a wedding
or, things like that.
one Teddy was probably more thanI.
Than any of us could handle.
But, after Teddy passed away,my, my youngest is named Joseph
Edward and Teddy's first name isEdward, and his twin was Joseph.
And, I do think a lot about,what losing that sibling meant
(05:37):
for my brother.
I'm sure that he felt kind oflost sometimes.
and my youngest, Joey is verymuch like his uncle in so many
ways that sometimes when I, I goto yell at him to stop doing
something, I accidentally callhim Teddy.
so I think it's, it's, it'sperfect that he has both of
(05:57):
those names.
Dr. Dean (05:58):
Mm-hmm.
How old is your son?
Jen Hoye (06:02):
my youngest is 12.
Dr. Dean (06:03):
Mm-hmm.
So he knew.
Your brother.
Jen Hoye (06:07):
Yes.
Yeah.
And they were, they were thickas thieves.
my brother taught him how tospell the word, but, and how to
sing all of the lyrics to babygot back and, Uncle Teddy was
the funnest uncle ever.
And anytime they were together,I usually ended up like, please
(06:30):
just calm down.
But now I think about that sparkand that chaos and the mischief,
and I don't want to discouragethat in my youngest.
I, I encourage it.
Dr. Dean (06:42):
Mm-hmm.
Because it reminds you of Teddy.
Jen Hoye (06:45):
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
Dr. Dean (06:47):
That's fun.
what a way, it's to stayconnected, through your son.
You said you have two kids?
Jen Hoye (06:54):
Three.
my oldest Jimmy will be 25 inNovember.
My middle Abigail is 21.
And then Joey, and each of themreminds me of Teddy, for
different reasons.
Abby has his like sweet andgentle nature, and Jimmy, we
used to joke that Teddy could bein the C I A because getting
(07:14):
information from him was like,impossible.
And Jimmy's a lot like that.
and we just, we laugh becauseit's oh my God, it's like Uncle
Teddy.
could you just give us ananswer?
I don't need to know statesecrets.
I just wanna know where you'regoing.
Dr. Dean (07:32):
Lovely.
and you were about two yearsapart?
Yes.
Jen Hoye (07:36):
A year and a half.
Yep.
Dr. Dean (07:37):
and a half.
Okay.
Before we get into a little bitmore, can you talk a little bit
about your role with thevolunteering that you do?
The advocacy,
Jen Hoye (07:47):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (07:47):
excuse me, advocacy.
Jen Hoye (07:49):
No, it started just with that marathon in a month.
and during that time, duringthat month, each day was
dedicated to somebody lost tosuicide.
and I had also.
met with some of our, our localpoliticians and to talk about
the work that I was doing.
And I was invited to speak tothe city council and asked
(08:13):
Jessica Vanderstat, theexecutive director for the
Massachusetts chapter of A F SP, to come with me, to share a
little bit about what thepurpose and the mission of A F S
P was.
And that was the first day that,that I met Jessica, was maybe
almost two years ago.
but I feel like that day reallycemented what path I knew I
(08:36):
wanted to take.
Jessica and I walked togetherfor about a mile after the City
Council meeting and we talkedand shared a lot.
She offered me kind of somepathways to volunteering and it
could be anything fromvolunteering at one of their out
of the darkness walks or,hosting a fundraiser or applying
(08:57):
to run a larger race, that has afundraising commitment, to
support A F S P.
But there are so many differentopportunities.
I've also done some talk saveslives.
It's suicide prevention trainingjust for regular people because
we, we all have a role to playand we, we can prevent suicide.
Dr. Dean (09:16):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, sometimes I think we alsofeel like we can try to prevent
it in ways that we can't.
I don't know.
Yeah.
Jen Hoye (09:25):
Yes, I, I agree with that.
I think the stigma aroundsuicide, people are afraid to
ask, are you thinking of hurtingyourself?
And that really is the mostimportant question you can ask
somebody.
Dr. Dean (09:40):
I think, as a professional, I'm obviously a
little bit more comfortableasking that question than some,
but, I think the fear is thatif, if you ask that question,
that person will, oh, if theyweren't thinking about it, now
they're gonna think about it.
Which is not the
Jen Hoye (09:55):
That's not true at all.
Dr. Dean (09:57):
not how that works.
Mm-hmm.
Thank you for bringing that up.
So what are you comfortablesharing about losing Teddy?
Jen Hoye (10:05):
I've written a lot about how losing Teddy, really
shattered my family and my wholeworld.
I think of my life before Teddydied and after, in the early
days, obviously we we were inshock.
and I remember my parents werethinking of not having a
(10:28):
service.
They didn't think that theycould do that, but one of our
relatives was like, we want to,to honor him.
so we chose to do a gravesideservice.
And, I thought it was nice thatwe had an escort from the
funeral home to the cemetery.
I think it was state policebecause my brother was a ranger
(10:51):
at the Massachusetts State Housefor 20 years.
But what I didn't realize is thereason for that is because his
service had just about shut downthe city.
there were hundreds of people I,couldn't even see people, like
individuals.
There were a few people Iremember looking at directly,
but just the masses and thenumber of people who showed up
(11:14):
because my brother had touchedtheir lives in some way.
And, that really, really, Ithink, shattered my heart into
pieces
Dr. Dean (11:23):
Mm-hmm.
Jen Hoye (11:25):
He, he had affected so many people so positively in so
many different ways.
You think you should tell peoplethat you love them while they're
living because, after they'regone, what can you say?
And that was, I, I, it was just,it was overwhelming.
as the days went on, of courseeveryone goes back to their
(11:47):
lives and we were left to figureit out and honestly had no idea
how to figure it out, and Ididn't, for a long time.
Dr. Dean (11:59):
Mm-hmm.
It sounds like you think hedidn't know how many people
touched his life or how manylives he touched.
Jen Hoye (12:08):
Yeah.
He was just so kind all thetime.
Perfect strangers or somebodywould say, Hey, could you help
me move?
And he only kind of knew themand he would be like, sure, I'll
be right there.
He was one of those people and Ithink it was just who he was.
So he didn't ever expect, Ithink anything in return or, or
(12:29):
any recognition.
I know suicide is a, a complexevent.
And there are many things, manythings that contribute to a
person, choosing to die bysuicide.
But I, I do know that, he was,in a really difficult, like a,
having a difficult time.
He had lost his best friend justfour weeks before.
(12:52):
They worked together at theState House for the 20 years,
and she died from cancer.
And this was just months afterwe lost our grandma, who was our
world.
And so I, I think that those twodeaths really contributed to his
feelings of hopelessness.
But again, I don't know, andthat's one of those things that
(13:13):
has been really hard for me toprocess and that I've struggled
with all these years.
And they always talk about, whensuicide loss groups, the tyranny
of hindsight.
Like I'll think, oh, I, I thinkhe said this or I should have
done this.
And the, the why's and the whatifs, those are the things that
keep you up at night.
And I'm working hard to acceptthose feelings, but keep moving.
Dr. Dean (13:39):
Yeah, it's so hard with a lot of loss, but
especially a suicide loss to,try to make sense of it.
Do you live near where he livedor near your family?
Jen Hoye (13:53):
No, my whole family lives in Boston.
I live about 30 miles south ofthe city.
but he came to so many of myolder sons games- baseball,
soccer, everything.
We spent every Sunday at ourgrandma's.
We saw each other a lot,probably a lot more than than
most families.
Dr. Dean (14:13):
So where would you say that you are with your grieving
now?
We know grieving never ends, butI'm just wondering where you
Jen Hoye (14:20):
No, it certainly never ends.
We just learn to carry itdifferently.
I felt like I was in a reallygreat spot going into this year.
I had really done a lot of workto work through all of the
complex feelings associated withsuicide loss, and I'd built a, a
network of other lost survivorsor other advocates in the mental
(14:42):
health space, and I had plannedfor.
his day to spend it with a F S PA F S P, folks at one of their,
bigger events of the year.
Earlier this spring I had, acouple of moments where some of
the feelings surrounding Teddy'sdeath were triggered.
(15:06):
I don't really like that word,but it's really the only word to
use.
Dr. Dean (15:09):
Activated
Jen Hoye (15:10):
Activated.
Yeah.
And I found myself spiralinginto a really dark depression
myself, until the week beforehis, and I don't like the word
anniversary either, his Memorialday.
I, I finally said, I, I think Ineed some more support.
And honestly, that was probablythe best thing I could have
(15:33):
done.
But if I had not experienced allthat I have, through the loss
and through my advocacy, I don'tthink I would've known
Dr. Dean (15:42):
Mm-hmm.
Jen Hoye (15:43):
to ask that question.
Dr. Dean (15:45):
Which speaks to this idea of, there's such a
expectation on timeline,especially for enfranchised
losses such as sibling loss, butalso suicides, another type of
disenfranchised grief.
And so it's been how many yearssince he passed?
Jen Hoye (16:05):
Six.
Dr. Dean (16:06):
Six, which in the grand scheme of things, isn't
that long, and I wonder if, ifthat feels different to you?
If people have been like, whyare you still grieving or what
your experience has been?
Jen Hoye (16:21):
Yeah, so the first three years, after Teddy died, I
worked really hard to be strong,be the strong one, be strong for
my parents, be strong for myfamily, and I, I essentially
self-destructed.
I, I went to work and I tookcare of my family, but I wasn't
(16:42):
living.
I had severe insomnia cause Irefused to sleep at night and I
was, feeding my emotions.
I gained almost a hundredpounds.
I was unhealthy mentally andphysically.
And so I know that and peoplewere like, why aren't you over
it?
I'm not going to be over it, butuntil I like, actually I think
(17:05):
said to myself I'm not going tobe over it, that I wasn't able
to process a lot of thosefeelings.
And so I, I think, milestonesand anniversaries and birthdays
will always be difficult, butthen there could be a day where
you hear a song and it remindsyou of your loved one and you
just start crying in the middleof a supermarket.
(17:27):
it just,
Dr. Dean (17:27):
It's always the supermarket.
Not always, but yeah.
Jen Hoye (17:31):
But yeah, like I feel like, I carry it differently now
and I feel I have found somepurpose, out of this, this
horrible tragedy.
But sometimes it, it gets, itstill gets heavy and there are
moments in my kids' lives that Iwish Uncle Teddy was here to see
(17:53):
or, I think about as our parentsare getting older.
We were meant to care for themin their old age, and even when
I, I remember things I'm nowlike the memory keeper
Dr. Dean (18:08):
Yeah.
Jen Hoye (18:09):
He was always there to say that did happen, that
happened and someone was, noyou, that didn't happen.
Yes, it happened.
But now I don't have, so it'shard cuz you think is my history
still my history?
Dr. Dean (18:21):
Yeah.
I've heard that from a lot ofpeople.
I've experienced that myself,including when my mother tells
me something didn't happen andI, I want, I want my brother to
validate that it happened.
So I get it.
What would you tell yourselffrom either, three or six years
ago?
Jen Hoye (18:39):
Oh
Dr. Dean (18:39):
about.
Jen Hoye (18:40):
Don't be strong.
There's no reason there'snothing to gain from being
strong.
Feel what you're feeling.
Let it go through you and letyourself experience it.
Feeling sad and experiencinggrief doesn't make you weak.
Dr. Dean (18:55):
Mm-hmm.
Jen Hoye (18:56):
Living through it makes you strong.
Dr. Dean (18:59):
So it sounds like you're almost redefining your
perception of what strength wasback then from this societal
idea that we don't cry.
We don't deal with emotions intowhat actually vulnerability
Jen Hoye (19:14):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (19:15):
creates in strength.
Jen Hoye (19:17):
Yeah.
And that's, that's one of thereasons I'm so open and my
social media posts, because Ifeel like.
I think if my brother had beenable to read things like that,
he would've been okay, I can askfor help or it's okay to feel
this.
It doesn't make me weak, or itdoesn't make me wrong.
(19:38):
It's just part of being aperson.
Dr. Dean (19:41):
Mm-hmm.
Did you wanna talk about thewalking and the marathons and,
and what that is?
Jen Hoye (19:48):
When my brother was alive, he was the most prepared
person on earth.
He packed for his July campingtrip in March.
Usually like it was, his bag waspacked and ready to go.
When I would think about theCovid pandemic, I would think of
all of the people to livethrough this, he's not here.
Cause he would've been prepared.
(20:08):
He would've told me what to doand he would've kept us all
laughing through the wholething.
I was a remote worker, so I wasused to being home alone, with
just my dogs and suddenlyeverybody's home and I have all
of this unresolved grief andtrauma and I just wanna be
alone.
So, you know, a hundred poundsoverweight without sleeping more
(20:29):
than an hour a night, I decideI'm gonna go for a walk.
Took my dog, Penelope, and Imade it to the end of our
street, which is not even like a10th of a mile, and I, I had to
take a break.
But I thought, I'm gonna trythis again, and when I went out
in my mind I would be talking tomy brother, like, how could you
do this?
I am stuck here in this pandemicwithout you.
(20:51):
I need you.
And I would just talk to him.
And initially I was so angry allthe time.
All the time.
but eventually, I was a littlekinder to him in my mind.
And I would hear songs thatreminded me of our free range
childhood and memories that mademe happy.
And each day I went a little bitfurther.
(21:12):
and as I walked further andfurther I realized I'm actually
feeling a little bit more calm.
That baseline anxiety anddepression was, was lessening,
and I, I, I felt better able tofunction.
and so we were scheduled to do awalk in September of 2020, but
everything was canceled.
(21:32):
So I decided I would do thevirtual walk, but I wanted to do
something to honor my brother,and so I started doing these
healing miles remembrance walks.
And so the first 5K of every daythat September, I dedicated to a
different person.
I met all of these people onsocial media.
but within those first few days,my inbox was, was filled and I
(21:55):
realized I could walk every dayfor the rest of my life and not
even impact a fraction ofpeople.
And so I.
I decided to keep going, but formy, my own mental wellness, I
had to step back from doingevery day, and doing as they,
(22:15):
they came up and rather thanfilling every day because that's
a lot to carry.
And so after the marathon in themonth, when I did the walk, 300
miles, A F S P had sent out aninvite to apply for the Boston
Marathon, and I thought, whynot?
We're from Boston, Teddy lovedthe marathon.
Teddy loved everything about thecity of Boston.
(22:38):
the only problem was I hadn'trun since 1990 in high school
and we were the worst crosscountry team ever.
Our, our coach was, was a nun.
She was amazing, but she wouldrun behind us to make sure we
didn't like, ditch the course.
So I was not a good runner ever.
(22:58):
So I applied and I got acceptedand my whole family was like, I
I, I don't think you, I don'tthink you can do this, and what
do you mean?
And my Joey was like, you'regonna win.
I was not gonna win, but I'mgonna finish.
That's how I got started withrunning and my first Boston
marathon was the October of2021.
It was the first time it hadbeen run in October, and I
(23:21):
remember I was at a mile 24 andI was thinking, I don't think I
can fit it.
I think they're right.
I can't finish.
And I saw somebody I knew fromhigh school in the crowd and she
was like,"What are you doinghere?" And I said,"I'm running."
and then I kind of like, in myhead I was like, that's pretty
(23:42):
funny that I would see her afterall of these years and I felt
like it was my brother, beinglike, you can do this.
Like you got this.
You, you can do it, and Ifinished.
And that's how running marathonsgot started.
But now every race that I do, Itry to dedicate a mile to a
different person, and alwayssave the last mile for my
(24:03):
brother, cause when I need itthe most, I'm gonna be like,
Ted, get me to the end please.
Dr. Dean (24:10):
So you started walking the marathons.
You said a marathon in a month.
Was it
Jen Hoye (24:15):
It was like a.
Dr. Dean (24:16):
like 26 miles to walk, but
Jen Hoye (24:18):
26 miles.
Commit to 26 miles in a monthand raise funds for A F S P.
But because I don't do anythingthe easy way, I thought, well,
26 miles in a month is nothing
Dr. Dean (24:31):
Mm-hmm.
Jen Hoye (24:32):
I, I don't even know where I came up with 300.
I just decided 300.
It seemed like a lot.
Okay, we'll do that.
And that, I was just walking atthat point.
And now, this morning, I textedmy husband and I said, oh, I
just went to the gym.
He said,"What'd you do?" I said,"Just five miles." And he's"Just
five miles?
Most people can't run fivemiles." And I was like,"I'm not
(24:54):
fast." And I, I think thatthat's the thing, I'll never be
like a fast runner, but I'llnever give up because I feel
like I.
A, I am too stubborn, and B, I'mcarrying my brother.
and I wanna get him to the endeach time.
Dr. Dean (25:11):
So it sounds like you shifted, it's almost
metaphorical, like carrying theweight of the grief into this
healthy, like shedding that andbeing able to carry him and the
connection with you.
Jen Hoye (25:23):
Yes.
Yeah,
Dr. Dean (25:25):
Yeah?
And just five miles?
I can't run.
I'm not a runner.
You keep qualifying all of thesethings you did with like just,
or in other ways it's hard for
Jen Hoye (25:33):
I know and I know I shouldn't do that like I run, so
I'm a runner, but in my head,I'm still that high school
student with the nun followingbehind me, threatening to tell
my mother if I didn't finish thecourse cause I was so slow.
After I finished my run, Ialways like, share, whatever,
and one of my husband's auntscommented,"You're always smiling
(25:55):
at the end of a run." And I feellike I usually am smiling like
the very end of the run becauseI'm just so excited that I was
able to do it, and prove tomyself that I could do something
that's really hard.
And so either when I'm running,I'm, I either have a horrible
scowl or a maniacal smilethere's no in between.
Dr. Dean (26:19):
So are you doing fundraising during these, these
runs?
Is
Jen Hoye (26:23):
Yeah.
The Boston Marathon in 2021 and2022 I fundraised.
for the Massachusetts chapter.
I did the Los Angeles MarathonCharity, half Like the Half
Marathon, and raised funds for,the Los Angeles chapter.
This past fall did the same forChicago Marathon.
(26:43):
And.
next weekend we're going toMinnesota.
My husband and I are bothrunning.
We raised, money for theMinnesota chapter, so my hope is
to represent A F S P or raisefunds for every chapter in the
country at some point in mylifetime.
Dr. Dean (26:59):
Well if you make it to the Pittsburgh Marathon, let me
know.
We can connect.
I won't run.
I'll watch you.
I will watch you.
I'm not a runner, but apparentlyit's hard cause nothing here is
flat.
yeah.
Thank you for sharing thatinformation.
You have a great social mediaat, at least I follow you on
Instagram.
Are you anywhere else?
Jen Hoye (27:19):
Yep.
I'm on Facebook as well and allof my posts related to mental
health and advocacy, they're allpublic.
Dr. Dean (27:25):
Do you wanna talk more about that?
Jen Hoye (27:26):
Sure.
So I, I'm a writer by professionthat, that's what I've done for
years and years, and so it'seasier for me to express myself
in writing.
And I, I found that sharing alot of the feelings that I was
experiencing, really helped memake connections with other
(27:47):
people.
I would receive messages thatsaid thank you for sharing that.
I needed to hear that today, andso that's how that started.
And then with Healing Miles, Ialways share about the person
that I'm remembering a littlebit about what their family
loves most about the person andthings like that.
And then with the walks and theruns, all of these things I
share daily and I try to sharesome resources or if I'm
(28:12):
experiencing something, likesharing how I'm feeling so that
other people know that they'renot alone.
And I always try to share thesuicide, crisis 9 88 number, for
talk and text and, and thingslike that.
And I think, a lot of times,it's, it's a lot to, to keep up
with.
(28:33):
but I feel like it's animportant piece of reaching
other people and, and lettingpeople know that it's, it's okay
to not be okay.
Dr. Dean (28:42):
For sure, and I think there's such shame and stigma
around suicide loss.
It feels to me like it's openedup that space for people to be
able to talk about it.
Jen Hoye (28:52):
Absolutely.
And just from my sharing,several people have reached out
when they were supportingsomeone in crisis or in crisis
themselves, and felt like theycould come to me as a safe
person, which that is my goal.
If I can help just one personknow that I'm safe to talk to
(29:12):
and I will try to connect them,with, with help or resources,
then it will all be worth it.
I would trade it all to have mybrother back, but I feel like
this is important.
Dr. Dean (29:26):
Yeah, I've said that too.
As much as what I love I'm doinghere.
I.
Give it all up.
If I could have my brother back.
Jen Hoye (29:33):
I'm sorry.
Dr. Dean (29:35):
That's how we connected.
But that's also, it's like thehidden thing that I think we
don't say.
Jen Hoye (29:41):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Dean (29:42):
Are there other things that you feel like people should
know about losing a sibling orsuicide loss in general?
Jen Hoye (29:52):
One thing that I wasn't prepared for and you
don't read about anywhere,really is, is how you experience
so many secondary losses relatedto the death.
There were friends that I had ormy parents had that just
disappeared.
We never heard from them, noteven a text.
(30:12):
And in the beginning I was like,why, like why would, but it's
really understanding that a lotof people are so uncomfortable
with the topic and then they'renot sure what to say, and so
they say nothing.
And then over time that thatkind of grows and they just
(30:35):
disappear.
And it's not about you.
It's about how they feel aboutthe topic.
And so I think for people, Whoknow others who, have lost
someone to suicide.
You don't have to know the rightthing to say.
Just be there.
Probably one of the most helpfulthings that happened in the
first weeks after my brotherdied was my best friend just
(30:58):
drove down an hour from herhouse to bring me a cup of
coffee and we just sat on thecouch.
I don't even think we talked.
Just being there is, isimportant and you don't have to
know the right thing to saycause there is nothing that's,
that can be said.
And then the, the sibling losinga sibling.
we're supposed to, it's supposedto be our longest relationship
as your, your sibling.
(31:19):
and so I, I think a lot aboutkind of what I've lost, in that
respect, but also it changes thewhole dynamic of, of an entire
family.
And so relearning, all of yourroles in the family is, it's a
process and it's not going to bethe same.
(31:42):
But it's important that you findyour path.
Dr. Dean (31:46):
Right.
You had said, I felt.
I'd lost my parents who hadsuffered the greatest loss so
parents could endure.
And then you do talk aboutlosing friends and, that
discomfort piece.
But I, I wonder if you stillfeel like you've lost your
parents or that that has changedin
Jen Hoye (32:06):
I lost the parents I had before my brother died.
They're, they're irreparablychanged.
I, I can't even imagine how aparent could recover from that.
But our relationship has gottenstronger, over the last several
years.
In, in part, I think because ofthe work that I'm doing.
(32:28):
I think initially it wasdifficult for my parents to, to
see or hear about the stuff thatI was doing and, and talking
about my brother and talkingabout grief.
I think it's hard for people ofthat generation.
Over time I, I think it hashelped all of us as a family.
I don't feel like I've lost themforever, but I lost who they
were
Dr. Dean (32:49):
Mm-hmm.
It sounds like you'renormalizing grief, but also
normalized talking about suicideloss within your own family, and
that's so key.
Hey, I had this thought as youwere saying that, and I, I've
had this conversation with otherguests and other people in my
life where like our parentsdefinitely change after this,
(33:11):
and that's understandable.
I wonder, you said they'reirreparably changed you.
Yes.
I wonder, and neither of us aregonna have this answer, but I
wonder if our parents feel thesame way about us.
Jen Hoye (33:27):
I would say yes.
I know I am a very differentperson than I was even three
years ago.
And I, I think, my parents are,have told me recently that how
proud they are of the work thatI'm doing, but also excited to
see me passionate aboutsomething.
(33:47):
I am, not the same person it wasbefore Teddy died, or even the
three years following.
Even my entire world and circleof friends has changed.
And I, I think in a positiveway,
Dr. Dean (34:01):
Mm.
Jen Hoye (34:02):
I'm more like the protector of Teddy and the
school schoolyard, that I waswhen I was a kid.
and less concerned about do Ifit in this box kind of thing.
And I think that that is notlost on anyone.
I think it's pretty apparent.
Dr. Dean (34:22):
Mm-hmm.
it definitely comes off in yourmedia and even in this
conversation, more so in thisconversation, even that just how
passionate you are about thework that you're doing.
Thank you for, for doing thatwork.
It's hard.
Jen Hoye (34:36):
Thank you.
I feel like it's important and Iwish that, I wish that we were
able to normalize it to a pointwhere this is just a normal
conversation that you have startwith kids starting, at a young
age.
Cause I think if we normalizethose conversations, it makes it
(34:57):
easier for people to seek help.
Dr. Dean (34:59):
Absolutely.
Yeah, for sure.
I, I wonder what the right wayis to start to talk about that
with kids when we don't have asociety of adults that can even
talk about this.
So that's a, that's a hugevision.
I think it's needed, but I don'tknow where
Jen Hoye (35:15):
It is, A F S P has a ton of resources available for
kids, starting in earlyelementary with they have this
Gizmo's Possum Adventure and itnormalizes talking about big
feelings.
one thing that I always did withmy youngest, cuz he was only
five when we lost six, when we,we lost Teddy.
I just started asking him openquestions, tell me everything
(35:36):
that's in your brain.
And it, he could tell mesomething about Minecraft or
Lego, but then he might say I'mnervous to go to sleep because
when I went to sleep last time,Uncle Teddy died.
Dr. Dean (35:46):
Mm.
Jen Hoye (35:47):
And just making it, okay it to have big emotions,
it's, and not be like, oh no,don't cry.
Like, why don't we talk aboutstuff?
And I think that that's, that'skey.
A lot of.
as a parent, like you want tofix everything for your kids.
And I think not jumping to dothat has been hard for me, but
(36:11):
it has in part, fostered likeopen communication.
Dr. Dean (36:15):
Yeah, I, I don't work with kids anymore, but I did
have some training in playtherapy and those are also some
safe ways that therapists teachparents how to have those,
conversations.
So I'm glad that you are gladthat you are working on that.
So with your parents, it soundslike you're closer now.
Are there other people thatsurprised you?
(36:39):
I, I know you mentioned friends,but are there other people or
professionals that surprised youin their support or lack of
support?
Jen Hoye (36:46):
Yes.
some of the people that I've meton this Healing Miles journey.
I count now among my closestfriends.
and the same with, these team, AF S P races, the connections
that I've made through those,those races and the teammates
I've run with it, it's, I, Idon't wanna call them my family,
(37:07):
but they're like my family now.
Some of these people I've nevermet in real life.
And yet I feel closer to themthan I do people I've known for,
for many years.
That said, I, I do have severalfriends who stuck by me, never
left my side, and they alwaysknow, to ask, how are you doing
(37:30):
today?
My, my best friend, we were 13when we met, and so essentially
she grew up with my brother aswell.
She has been my rock.
We've been through so muchtogether in our lifetime.
She has supported me through allof it and when I was applying to
run for the first marathon, shewas like, yes, you do this,
(37:52):
you've got this, you can dothis.
And in the, my second marathon,I slowed down at mile 20, I had
hurt my back and I had my phoneon Do Not Disturb, but she's one
of the people that whosemessages still come through.
And she sent me a message in allcaps like, I know you're
hurting, get moving.
You've got this.
(38:12):
Like she's just, I feel likeshe, everyone needs like one of
her in their lifetime to betheir biggest cheerleader.
and like I said, my circle offriends has changed
dramatically, in the bestpossible way.
I'm surrounding myself now Ithink with people who inspire me
to be better, and to do better,and who understand all of this.
(38:37):
We have a shared experience thatwe can support one another and
just send a random text like,hey, thinking of you.
And it's really been justwonderful.
Dr. Dean (38:49):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Thank you.
Do you have any favoritememories of you and Teddy that
you want to share?
Jen Hoye (38:56):
So many.
Dr. Dean (38:58):
many as you want.
Jen Hoye (39:00):
We had a pretty free range childhood, like most kids
in the seventies and eighties.
We were just like streeturchins.
and we lived in thisneighborhood with tons of kids,
and you just went outside andthat was your life.
Like you were outside, youcouldn't come inside for any
reason.
Even if somebody was bleeding,it didn't matter.
(39:21):
And we, we did everythingtogether.
We fought all, like when I saywe fought all the time, like
there was a period of time whereour parents were like, okay, you
cannot step foot in each other'srooms, because we would just go
in and just do stuff to annoyone another.
But one thing that I love to dowith him is, I had this like
(39:43):
pretty big closet in my bedroomand my grandma would sneak us
these big candy bars and I wouldkeep them in a bag in my closet.
And I loved to read.
and so I would sit in my closetwith my candy bars and my
strawberry shortcake sleepingbag and a, a light, and I would
read and my brother would comein and sit with me and he would
play cars and we would just staythere for, for hours until
(40:06):
somebody was like, where areyou?
A lot of times he was just, likeyou would be like, oh, Teddy,
like all the time.
what are you doing now?
but it was so funny.
It was so always so funny.
and growing up we lived inwalking distance of our
grandparents' house and a lot ofour relatives and we have, set
(40:29):
of cousins who, the girl cousinis 25 days older than me, and
the boy is close in age, wasclose in age to my brother, and
the four of us were raised likesiblings.
We spent a lot of time at mygrandparents' house with my
cousins.
And some of our best memoriesare just, us getting, I don't
remember what we did leading upto it, but we always got in
(40:51):
trouble for something.
And if one of us got punished,all four of us got punished and
each of us had a different spotin my grandma's house where you
had to have your like, time out.
But my brother had to be in aspot where he couldn't see
anybody because he would justmake everybody laugh.
Dr. Dean (41:06):
Mm.
Sounds like a really goodbrother, and that you were
really close.
Jen Hoye (41:15):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (41:16):
Yeah.
Thank you for sharing all ofthis and this conversation.
I'm so glad that we finallyconnected.
Jen Hoye (41:23):
Thank you.
Dr. Dean (41:24):
You're welcome.
Thanks for being on.
Thank you so much for listening.
Our theme song was written byJoe Mylwood and Brian Dean, and
was performed by Joe Mylwood.
If you would like moreinformation on the broken pack,
go to our website, the brokenpack.com.
Be sure to sign up for ournewsletter, Wild Grief, to learn
about opportunities and receiveexclusive information and
(41:44):
grieving tips for subscribers.
Information on that, our socialmedia and on our guests can be
found in the show notes whereveryou get your podcasts.
Please like, follow, subscribe,and share.
Thanks again.
Hello and welcome to the Broken Pack, a podcast
focused on giving adultsurvivors of sibling loss, a
platform to share their storiesand to be heard.
Something that many sibling losssurvivors state that they never
have had.
Sibling loss is misunderstood.
The broken Pack exists to changethat and to support survivors.
(00:32):
I'm your host, Dr.
Angela Dean.
Content warning (00:37):
information presented in this episode may be
triggering to some people.
It contains talk of suicide.
I'm so excited to share thisconversation in which I spoke
with Jen Hoy.
Jen shares the story of losingher brother Teddy to suicide and
how she's been making meaningfrom that loss and learning to
live with her grief.
She's a mental health advocate,a marathoner and a writer.
(00:57):
She's also currently serving onthe board for the Massachusetts
chapter of the AmericanFoundation for Suicide
Prevention.
We discuss how beginning to walkfor her own peace has culminated
in running marathons to honorthe memories of others loved
ones who have been lost for manyreasons, primarily suicide.
Enjoy the episode.
(01:25):
Thank you for joining us today.
I was wondering what you wannatell our listeners about
yourself.
Jen Hoye (01:31):
Thank you for having me.
my name's Jen Hoye.
I am a passionate mental healthand suicide prevention advocate.
I'm a board member of AmericanFoundation for Suicide
Prevention Massachusettschapter, and I'm a suicide loss
survivor.
My brother, Teddy, died in Mayof 2017 and the experience of
(01:52):
losing Teddy and working throughthe grief and the trauma has
really set me on a path, ofpurpose.
And I, feel like I carry himwith me every day.
Dr. Dean (02:04):
Mm-hmm.
That's beautiful.
Is that how you got involved inthe, A F S P,
Jen Hoye (02:10):
Yeah.
A F S P.
Yep.
it, it is, I, I, I was having aparticularly rough kind of grief
night, well into the Covidpandemic, and I was up at late
at night scrolling through theinternet as we do at 2:00 AM.
and I saw this thing about amarathon in a month, and I
thought, Right now I'm walkingabout a marathon every couple of
(02:32):
days, so this would be a reallygreat way to honor my brother's
memory.
and you know what?
because I do a marathon everycouple days, why don't we commit
to 300 miles?
because my brother, he would'vewalked a million miles even if
it,
Dr. Dean (02:49):
Mm-hmm.
Jen Hoye (02:50):
It meant he could help alleviate someone's pain, even
for a small moment.
So I felt like that that was theright choice to do.
And once I got involved with A FS P, I really found a community
of, of like-minded people andpeople in this horrible club
that we're in, but who inspiredme and brought me tremendous
(03:10):
hope.
Dr. Dean (03:12):
Sounds like a good fit for you.
Jen Hoye (03:14):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (03:15):
before we talk about the loss and your grief and all
of those things, what do youwant us to know about Teddy?
I.
Jen Hoye (03:21):
Oh.
so my brother Teddy was bornfour months early in 1975.
he weighed half a pound.
he's a miracle.
he had a twin who didn't livemuch longer after they were
born.
My brother and I, Teddy and Iwere super close.
we fought every single day, butI was always his protector.
(03:45):
That was, that was my job, thatI took it very seriously.
and even into adulthood we werevery close.
We texted or talked multipletimes a day.
Usually just silly stuff becauseone thing about my brother is he
was a clown.
He was a clown from when he wasa little kid, into adulthood.
He helped my kids plan elaborateApril fool's jokes just to get
(04:10):
me riled up.
But he had so many friends andso many people who loved him,
because he was just a kind andgentle soul.
And that's something that I wasalways amazed by because I was
like the, the rough, toughsister.
And he was this sweet andgentle, blonde-haired angel
(04:31):
little boy.
And I was like out beatingpeople up if they made fun of
him when.
Dr. Dean (04:37):
So you were the protective older sister,
Jen Hoye (04:39):
Yes.
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (04:40):
so you really lost two siblings.
Jen Hoye (04:43):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (04:44):
Hmm.
Were you highly aware of thatbefore you lost Teddy?
That you lost his brother, or,your brother as
Jen Hoye (04:51):
well, we didn't talk about his twin Joseph much, if
at all, growing up.
and my brother was a handful.
Like we were punished probablyevery day, he would just do
things impulsively, that we allfound amusing, but probably not.
Like he would spray theneighbors with the hose just to
(05:13):
see what would happen when theywere on their way to a wedding
or, things like that.
one Teddy was probably more thanI.
Than any of us could handle.
But, after Teddy passed away,my, my youngest is named Joseph
Edward and Teddy's first name isEdward, and his twin was Joseph.
And, I do think a lot about,what losing that sibling meant
(05:37):
for my brother.
I'm sure that he felt kind oflost sometimes.
and my youngest, Joey is verymuch like his uncle in so many
ways that sometimes when I, I goto yell at him to stop doing
something, I accidentally callhim Teddy.
so I think it's, it's, it'sperfect that he has both of
(05:57):
those names.
Dr. Dean (05:58):
Mm-hmm.
How old is your son?
Jen Hoye (06:02):
my youngest is 12.
Dr. Dean (06:03):
Mm-hmm.
So he knew.
Your brother.
Jen Hoye (06:07):
Yes.
Yeah.
And they were, they were thickas thieves.
my brother taught him how tospell the word, but, and how to
sing all of the lyrics to babygot back and, Uncle Teddy was
the funnest uncle ever.
And anytime they were together,I usually ended up like, please
(06:30):
just calm down.
But now I think about that sparkand that chaos and the mischief,
and I don't want to discouragethat in my youngest.
I, I encourage it.
Dr. Dean (06:42):
Mm-hmm.
Because it reminds you of Teddy.
Jen Hoye (06:45):
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
Dr. Dean (06:47):
That's fun.
what a way, it's to stayconnected, through your son.
You said you have two kids?
Jen Hoye (06:54):
Three.
my oldest Jimmy will be 25 inNovember.
My middle Abigail is 21.
And then Joey, and each of themreminds me of Teddy, for
different reasons.
Abby has his like sweet andgentle nature, and Jimmy, we
used to joke that Teddy could bein the C I A because getting
(07:14):
information from him was like,impossible.
And Jimmy's a lot like that.
and we just, we laugh becauseit's oh my God, it's like Uncle
Teddy.
could you just give us ananswer?
I don't need to know statesecrets.
I just wanna know where you'regoing.
Dr. Dean (07:32):
Lovely.
and you were about two yearsapart?
Yes.
Jen Hoye (07:36):
A year and a half.
Yep.
Dr. Dean (07:37):
and a half.
Okay.
Before we get into a little bitmore, can you talk a little bit
about your role with thevolunteering that you do?
The advocacy,
Jen Hoye (07:47):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (07:47):
excuse me, advocacy.
Jen Hoye (07:49):
No, it started just with that marathon in a month.
and during that time, duringthat month, each day was
dedicated to somebody lost tosuicide.
and I had also.
met with some of our, our localpoliticians and to talk about
the work that I was doing.
And I was invited to speak tothe city council and asked
(08:13):
Jessica Vanderstat, theexecutive director for the
Massachusetts chapter of A F SP, to come with me, to share a
little bit about what thepurpose and the mission of A F S
P was.
And that was the first day that,that I met Jessica, was maybe
almost two years ago.
but I feel like that day reallycemented what path I knew I
(08:36):
wanted to take.
Jessica and I walked togetherfor about a mile after the City
Council meeting and we talkedand shared a lot.
She offered me kind of somepathways to volunteering and it
could be anything fromvolunteering at one of their out
of the darkness walks or,hosting a fundraiser or applying
(08:57):
to run a larger race, that has afundraising commitment, to
support A F S P.
But there are so many differentopportunities.
I've also done some talk saveslives.
It's suicide prevention trainingjust for regular people because
we, we all have a role to playand we, we can prevent suicide.
Dr. Dean (09:16):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, sometimes I think we alsofeel like we can try to prevent
it in ways that we can't.
I don't know.
Yeah.
Jen Hoye (09:25):
Yes, I, I agree with that.
I think the stigma aroundsuicide, people are afraid to
ask, are you thinking of hurtingyourself?
And that really is the mostimportant question you can ask
somebody.
Dr. Dean (09:40):
I think, as a professional, I'm obviously a
little bit more comfortableasking that question than some,
but, I think the fear is thatif, if you ask that question,
that person will, oh, if theyweren't thinking about it, now
they're gonna think about it.
Which is not the
Jen Hoye (09:55):
That's not true at all.
Dr. Dean (09:57):
not how that works.
Mm-hmm.
Thank you for bringing that up.
So what are you comfortablesharing about losing Teddy?
Jen Hoye (10:05):
I've written a lot about how losing Teddy, really
shattered my family and my wholeworld.
I think of my life before Teddydied and after, in the early
days, obviously we we were inshock.
and I remember my parents werethinking of not having a
(10:28):
service.
They didn't think that theycould do that, but one of our
relatives was like, we want to,to honor him.
so we chose to do a gravesideservice.
And, I thought it was nice thatwe had an escort from the
funeral home to the cemetery.
I think it was state policebecause my brother was a ranger
(10:51):
at the Massachusetts State Housefor 20 years.
But what I didn't realize is thereason for that is because his
service had just about shut downthe city.
there were hundreds of people I,couldn't even see people, like
individuals.
There were a few people Iremember looking at directly,
but just the masses and thenumber of people who showed up
(11:14):
because my brother had touchedtheir lives in some way.
And, that really, really, Ithink, shattered my heart into
pieces
Dr. Dean (11:23):
Mm-hmm.
Jen Hoye (11:25):
He, he had affected so many people so positively in so
many different ways.
You think you should tell peoplethat you love them while they're
living because, after they'regone, what can you say?
And that was, I, I, it was just,it was overwhelming.
as the days went on, of courseeveryone goes back to their
(11:47):
lives and we were left to figureit out and honestly had no idea
how to figure it out, and Ididn't, for a long time.
Dr. Dean (11:59):
Mm-hmm.
It sounds like you think hedidn't know how many people
touched his life or how manylives he touched.
Jen Hoye (12:08):
Yeah.
He was just so kind all thetime.
Perfect strangers or somebodywould say, Hey, could you help
me move?
And he only kind of knew themand he would be like, sure, I'll
be right there.
He was one of those people and Ithink it was just who he was.
So he didn't ever expect, Ithink anything in return or, or
(12:29):
any recognition.
I know suicide is a, a complexevent.
And there are many things, manythings that contribute to a
person, choosing to die bysuicide.
But I, I do know that, he was,in a really difficult, like a,
having a difficult time.
He had lost his best friend justfour weeks before.
(12:52):
They worked together at theState House for the 20 years,
and she died from cancer.
And this was just months afterwe lost our grandma, who was our
world.
And so I, I think that those twodeaths really contributed to his
feelings of hopelessness.
But again, I don't know, andthat's one of those things that
(13:13):
has been really hard for me toprocess and that I've struggled
with all these years.
And they always talk about, whensuicide loss groups, the tyranny
of hindsight.
Like I'll think, oh, I, I thinkhe said this or I should have
done this.
And the, the why's and the whatifs, those are the things that
keep you up at night.
And I'm working hard to acceptthose feelings, but keep moving.
Dr. Dean (13:39):
Yeah, it's so hard with a lot of loss, but
especially a suicide loss to,try to make sense of it.
Do you live near where he livedor near your family?
Jen Hoye (13:53):
No, my whole family lives in Boston.
I live about 30 miles south ofthe city.
but he came to so many of myolder sons games- baseball,
soccer, everything.
We spent every Sunday at ourgrandma's.
We saw each other a lot,probably a lot more than than
most families.
Dr. Dean (14:13):
So where would you say that you are with your grieving
now?
We know grieving never ends, butI'm just wondering where you
Jen Hoye (14:20):
No, it certainly never ends.
We just learn to carry itdifferently.
I felt like I was in a reallygreat spot going into this year.
I had really done a lot of workto work through all of the
complex feelings associated withsuicide loss, and I'd built a, a
network of other lost survivorsor other advocates in the mental
(14:42):
health space, and I had plannedfor.
his day to spend it with a F S PA F S P, folks at one of their,
bigger events of the year.
Earlier this spring I had, acouple of moments where some of
the feelings surrounding Teddy'sdeath were triggered.
(15:06):
I don't really like that word,but it's really the only word to
use.
Dr. Dean (15:09):
Activated
Jen Hoye (15:10):
Activated.
Yeah.
And I found myself spiralinginto a really dark depression
myself, until the week beforehis, and I don't like the word
anniversary either, his Memorialday.
I, I finally said, I, I think Ineed some more support.
And honestly, that was probablythe best thing I could have
(15:33):
done.
But if I had not experienced allthat I have, through the loss
and through my advocacy, I don'tthink I would've known
Dr. Dean (15:42):
Mm-hmm.
Jen Hoye (15:43):
to ask that question.
Dr. Dean (15:45):
Which speaks to this idea of, there's such a
expectation on timeline,especially for enfranchised
losses such as sibling loss, butalso suicides, another type of
disenfranchised grief.
And so it's been how many yearssince he passed?
Jen Hoye (16:05):
Six.
Dr. Dean (16:06):
Six, which in the grand scheme of things, isn't
that long, and I wonder if, ifthat feels different to you?
If people have been like, whyare you still grieving or what
your experience has been?
Jen Hoye (16:21):
Yeah, so the first three years, after Teddy died, I
worked really hard to be strong,be the strong one, be strong for
my parents, be strong for myfamily, and I, I essentially
self-destructed.
I, I went to work and I tookcare of my family, but I wasn't
(16:42):
living.
I had severe insomnia cause Irefused to sleep at night and I
was, feeding my emotions.
I gained almost a hundredpounds.
I was unhealthy mentally andphysically.
And so I know that and peoplewere like, why aren't you over
it?
I'm not going to be over it, butuntil I like, actually I think
(17:05):
said to myself I'm not going tobe over it, that I wasn't able
to process a lot of thosefeelings.
And so I, I think, milestonesand anniversaries and birthdays
will always be difficult, butthen there could be a day where
you hear a song and it remindsyou of your loved one and you
just start crying in the middleof a supermarket.
(17:27):
it just,
Dr. Dean (17:27):
It's always the supermarket.
Not always, but yeah.
Jen Hoye (17:31):
But yeah, like I feel like, I carry it differently now
and I feel I have found somepurpose, out of this, this
horrible tragedy.
But sometimes it, it gets, itstill gets heavy and there are
moments in my kids' lives that Iwish Uncle Teddy was here to see
(17:53):
or, I think about as our parentsare getting older.
We were meant to care for themin their old age, and even when
I, I remember things I'm nowlike the memory keeper
Dr. Dean (18:08):
Yeah.
Jen Hoye (18:09):
He was always there to say that did happen, that
happened and someone was, noyou, that didn't happen.
Yes, it happened.
But now I don't have, so it'shard cuz you think is my history
still my history?
Dr. Dean (18:21):
Yeah.
I've heard that from a lot ofpeople.
I've experienced that myself,including when my mother tells
me something didn't happen andI, I want, I want my brother to
validate that it happened.
So I get it.
What would you tell yourselffrom either, three or six years
ago?
Jen Hoye (18:39):
Oh
Dr. Dean (18:39):
about.
Jen Hoye (18:40):
Don't be strong.
There's no reason there'snothing to gain from being
strong.
Feel what you're feeling.
Let it go through you and letyourself experience it.
Feeling sad and experiencinggrief doesn't make you weak.
Dr. Dean (18:55):
Mm-hmm.
Jen Hoye (18:56):
Living through it makes you strong.
Dr. Dean (18:59):
So it sounds like you're almost redefining your
perception of what strength wasback then from this societal
idea that we don't cry.
We don't deal with emotions intowhat actually vulnerability
Jen Hoye (19:14):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (19:15):
creates in strength.
Jen Hoye (19:17):
Yeah.
And that's, that's one of thereasons I'm so open and my
social media posts, because Ifeel like.
I think if my brother had beenable to read things like that,
he would've been okay, I can askfor help or it's okay to feel
this.
It doesn't make me weak, or itdoesn't make me wrong.
(19:38):
It's just part of being aperson.
Dr. Dean (19:41):
Mm-hmm.
Did you wanna talk about thewalking and the marathons and,
and what that is?
Jen Hoye (19:48):
When my brother was alive, he was the most prepared
person on earth.
He packed for his July campingtrip in March.
Usually like it was, his bag waspacked and ready to go.
When I would think about theCovid pandemic, I would think of
all of the people to livethrough this, he's not here.
Cause he would've been prepared.
(20:08):
He would've told me what to doand he would've kept us all
laughing through the wholething.
I was a remote worker, so I wasused to being home alone, with
just my dogs and suddenlyeverybody's home and I have all
of this unresolved grief andtrauma and I just wanna be
alone.
So, you know, a hundred poundsoverweight without sleeping more
(20:29):
than an hour a night, I decideI'm gonna go for a walk.
Took my dog, Penelope, and Imade it to the end of our
street, which is not even like a10th of a mile, and I, I had to
take a break.
But I thought, I'm gonna trythis again, and when I went out
in my mind I would be talking tomy brother, like, how could you
do this?
I am stuck here in this pandemicwithout you.
(20:51):
I need you.
And I would just talk to him.
And initially I was so angry allthe time.
All the time.
but eventually, I was a littlekinder to him in my mind.
And I would hear songs thatreminded me of our free range
childhood and memories that mademe happy.
And each day I went a little bitfurther.
(21:12):
and as I walked further andfurther I realized I'm actually
feeling a little bit more calm.
That baseline anxiety anddepression was, was lessening,
and I, I, I felt better able tofunction.
and so we were scheduled to do awalk in September of 2020, but
everything was canceled.
(21:32):
So I decided I would do thevirtual walk, but I wanted to do
something to honor my brother,and so I started doing these
healing miles remembrance walks.
And so the first 5K of every daythat September, I dedicated to a
different person.
I met all of these people onsocial media.
but within those first few days,my inbox was, was filled and I
(21:55):
realized I could walk every dayfor the rest of my life and not
even impact a fraction ofpeople.
And so I.
I decided to keep going, but formy, my own mental wellness, I
had to step back from doingevery day, and doing as they,
(22:15):
they came up and rather thanfilling every day because that's
a lot to carry.
And so after the marathon in themonth, when I did the walk, 300
miles, A F S P had sent out aninvite to apply for the Boston
Marathon, and I thought, whynot?
We're from Boston, Teddy lovedthe marathon.
Teddy loved everything about thecity of Boston.
(22:38):
the only problem was I hadn'trun since 1990 in high school
and we were the worst crosscountry team ever.
Our, our coach was, was a nun.
She was amazing, but she wouldrun behind us to make sure we
didn't like, ditch the course.
So I was not a good runner ever.
(22:58):
So I applied and I got acceptedand my whole family was like, I
I, I don't think you, I don'tthink you can do this, and what
do you mean?
And my Joey was like, you'regonna win.
I was not gonna win, but I'mgonna finish.
That's how I got started withrunning and my first Boston
marathon was the October of2021.
It was the first time it hadbeen run in October, and I
(23:21):
remember I was at a mile 24 andI was thinking, I don't think I
can fit it.
I think they're right.
I can't finish.
And I saw somebody I knew fromhigh school in the crowd and she
was like,"What are you doinghere?" And I said,"I'm running."
and then I kind of like, in myhead I was like, that's pretty
(23:42):
funny that I would see her afterall of these years and I felt
like it was my brother, beinglike, you can do this.
Like you got this.
You, you can do it, and Ifinished.
And that's how running marathonsgot started.
But now every race that I do, Itry to dedicate a mile to a
different person, and alwayssave the last mile for my
(24:03):
brother, cause when I need itthe most, I'm gonna be like,
Ted, get me to the end please.
Dr. Dean (24:10):
So you started walking the marathons.
You said a marathon in a month.
Was it
Jen Hoye (24:15):
It was like a.
Dr. Dean (24:16):
like 26 miles to walk, but
Jen Hoye (24:18):
26 miles.
Commit to 26 miles in a monthand raise funds for A F S P.
But because I don't do anythingthe easy way, I thought, well,
26 miles in a month is nothing
Dr. Dean (24:31):
Mm-hmm.
Jen Hoye (24:32):
I, I don't even know where I came up with 300.
I just decided 300.
It seemed like a lot.
Okay, we'll do that.
And that, I was just walking atthat point.
And now, this morning, I textedmy husband and I said, oh, I
just went to the gym.
He said,"What'd you do?" I said,"Just five miles." And he's"Just
five miles?
Most people can't run fivemiles." And I was like,"I'm not
(24:54):
fast." And I, I think thatthat's the thing, I'll never be
like a fast runner, but I'llnever give up because I feel
like I.
A, I am too stubborn, and B, I'mcarrying my brother.
and I wanna get him to the endeach time.
Dr. Dean (25:11):
So it sounds like you shifted, it's almost
metaphorical, like carrying theweight of the grief into this
healthy, like shedding that andbeing able to carry him and the
connection with you.
Jen Hoye (25:23):
Yes.
Yeah,
Dr. Dean (25:25):
Yeah?
And just five miles?
I can't run.
I'm not a runner.
You keep qualifying all of thesethings you did with like just,
or in other ways it's hard for
Jen Hoye (25:33):
I know and I know I shouldn't do that like I run, so
I'm a runner, but in my head,I'm still that high school
student with the nun followingbehind me, threatening to tell
my mother if I didn't finish thecourse cause I was so slow.
After I finished my run, Ialways like, share, whatever,
and one of my husband's auntscommented,"You're always smiling
(25:55):
at the end of a run." And I feellike I usually am smiling like
the very end of the run becauseI'm just so excited that I was
able to do it, and prove tomyself that I could do something
that's really hard.
And so either when I'm running,I'm, I either have a horrible
scowl or a maniacal smilethere's no in between.
Dr. Dean (26:19):
So are you doing fundraising during these, these
runs?
Is
Jen Hoye (26:23):
Yeah.
The Boston Marathon in 2021 and2022 I fundraised.
for the Massachusetts chapter.
I did the Los Angeles MarathonCharity, half Like the Half
Marathon, and raised funds for,the Los Angeles chapter.
This past fall did the same forChicago Marathon.
(26:43):
And.
next weekend we're going toMinnesota.
My husband and I are bothrunning.
We raised, money for theMinnesota chapter, so my hope is
to represent A F S P or raisefunds for every chapter in the
country at some point in mylifetime.
Dr. Dean (26:59):
Well if you make it to the Pittsburgh Marathon, let me
know.
We can connect.
I won't run.
I'll watch you.
I will watch you.
I'm not a runner, but apparentlyit's hard cause nothing here is
flat.
yeah.
Thank you for sharing thatinformation.
You have a great social mediaat, at least I follow you on
Instagram.
Are you anywhere else?
Jen Hoye (27:19):
Yep.
I'm on Facebook as well and allof my posts related to mental
health and advocacy, they're allpublic.
Dr. Dean (27:25):
Do you wanna talk more about that?
Jen Hoye (27:26):
Sure.
So I, I'm a writer by professionthat, that's what I've done for
years and years, and so it'seasier for me to express myself
in writing.
And I, I found that sharing alot of the feelings that I was
experiencing, really helped memake connections with other
(27:47):
people.
I would receive messages thatsaid thank you for sharing that.
I needed to hear that today, andso that's how that started.
And then with Healing Miles, Ialways share about the person
that I'm remembering a littlebit about what their family
loves most about the person andthings like that.
And then with the walks and theruns, all of these things I
share daily and I try to sharesome resources or if I'm
(28:12):
experiencing something, likesharing how I'm feeling so that
other people know that they'renot alone.
And I always try to share thesuicide, crisis 9 88 number, for
talk and text and, and thingslike that.
And I think, a lot of times,it's, it's a lot to, to keep up
with.
(28:33):
but I feel like it's animportant piece of reaching
other people and, and lettingpeople know that it's, it's okay
to not be okay.
Dr. Dean (28:42):
For sure, and I think there's such shame and stigma
around suicide loss.
It feels to me like it's openedup that space for people to be
able to talk about it.
Jen Hoye (28:52):
Absolutely.
And just from my sharing,several people have reached out
when they were supportingsomeone in crisis or in crisis
themselves, and felt like theycould come to me as a safe
person, which that is my goal.
If I can help just one personknow that I'm safe to talk to
(29:12):
and I will try to connect them,with, with help or resources,
then it will all be worth it.
I would trade it all to have mybrother back, but I feel like
this is important.
Dr. Dean (29:26):
Yeah, I've said that too.
As much as what I love I'm doinghere.
I.
Give it all up.
If I could have my brother back.
Jen Hoye (29:33):
I'm sorry.
Dr. Dean (29:35):
That's how we connected.
But that's also, it's like thehidden thing that I think we
don't say.
Jen Hoye (29:41):
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Dean (29:42):
Are there other things that you feel like people should
know about losing a sibling orsuicide loss in general?
Jen Hoye (29:52):
One thing that I wasn't prepared for and you
don't read about anywhere,really is, is how you experience
so many secondary losses relatedto the death.
There were friends that I had ormy parents had that just
disappeared.
We never heard from them, noteven a text.
(30:12):
And in the beginning I was like,why, like why would, but it's
really understanding that a lotof people are so uncomfortable
with the topic and then they'renot sure what to say, and so
they say nothing.
And then over time that thatkind of grows and they just
(30:35):
disappear.
And it's not about you.
It's about how they feel aboutthe topic.
And so I think for people, Whoknow others who, have lost
someone to suicide.
You don't have to know the rightthing to say.
Just be there.
Probably one of the most helpfulthings that happened in the
first weeks after my brotherdied was my best friend just
(30:58):
drove down an hour from herhouse to bring me a cup of
coffee and we just sat on thecouch.
I don't even think we talked.
Just being there is, isimportant and you don't have to
know the right thing to saycause there is nothing that's,
that can be said.
And then the, the sibling losinga sibling.
we're supposed to, it's supposedto be our longest relationship
as your, your sibling.
(31:19):
and so I, I think a lot aboutkind of what I've lost, in that
respect, but also it changes thewhole dynamic of, of an entire
family.
And so relearning, all of yourroles in the family is, it's a
process and it's not going to bethe same.
(31:42):
But it's important that you findyour path.
Dr. Dean (31:46):
Right.
You had said, I felt.
I'd lost my parents who hadsuffered the greatest loss so
parents could endure.
And then you do talk aboutlosing friends and, that
discomfort piece.
But I, I wonder if you stillfeel like you've lost your
parents or that that has changedin
Jen Hoye (32:06):
I lost the parents I had before my brother died.
They're, they're irreparablychanged.
I, I can't even imagine how aparent could recover from that.
But our relationship has gottenstronger, over the last several
years.
In, in part, I think because ofthe work that I'm doing.
(32:28):
I think initially it wasdifficult for my parents to, to
see or hear about the stuff thatI was doing and, and talking
about my brother and talkingabout grief.
I think it's hard for people ofthat generation.
Over time I, I think it hashelped all of us as a family.
I don't feel like I've lost themforever, but I lost who they
were
Dr. Dean (32:49):
Mm-hmm.
It sounds like you'renormalizing grief, but also
normalized talking about suicideloss within your own family, and
that's so key.
Hey, I had this thought as youwere saying that, and I, I've
had this conversation with otherguests and other people in my
life where like our parentsdefinitely change after this,
(33:11):
and that's understandable.
I wonder, you said they'reirreparably changed you.
Yes.
I wonder, and neither of us aregonna have this answer, but I
wonder if our parents feel thesame way about us.
Jen Hoye (33:27):
I would say yes.
I know I am a very differentperson than I was even three
years ago.
And I, I think, my parents are,have told me recently that how
proud they are of the work thatI'm doing, but also excited to
see me passionate aboutsomething.
(33:47):
I am, not the same person it wasbefore Teddy died, or even the
three years following.
Even my entire world and circleof friends has changed.
And I, I think in a positiveway,
Dr. Dean (34:01):
Mm.
Jen Hoye (34:02):
I'm more like the protector of Teddy and the
school schoolyard, that I waswhen I was a kid.
and less concerned about do Ifit in this box kind of thing.
And I think that that is notlost on anyone.
I think it's pretty apparent.
Dr. Dean (34:22):
Mm-hmm.
it definitely comes off in yourmedia and even in this
conversation, more so in thisconversation, even that just how
passionate you are about thework that you're doing.
Thank you for, for doing thatwork.
It's hard.
Jen Hoye (34:36):
Thank you.
I feel like it's important and Iwish that, I wish that we were
able to normalize it to a pointwhere this is just a normal
conversation that you have startwith kids starting, at a young
age.
Cause I think if we normalizethose conversations, it makes it
(34:57):
easier for people to seek help.
Dr. Dean (34:59):
Absolutely.
Yeah, for sure.
I, I wonder what the right wayis to start to talk about that
with kids when we don't have asociety of adults that can even
talk about this.
So that's a, that's a hugevision.
I think it's needed, but I don'tknow where
Jen Hoye (35:15):
It is, A F S P has a ton of resources available for
kids, starting in earlyelementary with they have this
Gizmo's Possum Adventure and itnormalizes talking about big
feelings.
one thing that I always did withmy youngest, cuz he was only
five when we lost six, when we,we lost Teddy.
I just started asking him openquestions, tell me everything
(35:36):
that's in your brain.
And it, he could tell mesomething about Minecraft or
Lego, but then he might say I'mnervous to go to sleep because
when I went to sleep last time,Uncle Teddy died.
Dr. Dean (35:46):
Mm.
Jen Hoye (35:47):
And just making it, okay it to have big emotions,
it's, and not be like, oh no,don't cry.
Like, why don't we talk aboutstuff?
And I think that that's, that'skey.
A lot of.
as a parent, like you want tofix everything for your kids.
And I think not jumping to dothat has been hard for me, but
(36:11):
it has in part, fostered likeopen communication.
Dr. Dean (36:15):
Yeah, I, I don't work with kids anymore, but I did
have some training in playtherapy and those are also some
safe ways that therapists teachparents how to have those,
conversations.
So I'm glad that you are gladthat you are working on that.
So with your parents, it soundslike you're closer now.
Are there other people thatsurprised you?
(36:39):
I, I know you mentioned friends,but are there other people or
professionals that surprised youin their support or lack of
support?
Jen Hoye (36:46):
Yes.
some of the people that I've meton this Healing Miles journey.
I count now among my closestfriends.
and the same with, these team, AF S P races, the connections
that I've made through those,those races and the teammates
I've run with it, it's, I, Idon't wanna call them my family,
(37:07):
but they're like my family now.
Some of these people I've nevermet in real life.
And yet I feel closer to themthan I do people I've known for,
for many years.
That said, I, I do have severalfriends who stuck by me, never
left my side, and they alwaysknow, to ask, how are you doing
(37:30):
today?
My, my best friend, we were 13when we met, and so essentially
she grew up with my brother aswell.
She has been my rock.
We've been through so muchtogether in our lifetime.
She has supported me through allof it and when I was applying to
run for the first marathon, shewas like, yes, you do this,
(37:52):
you've got this, you can dothis.
And in the, my second marathon,I slowed down at mile 20, I had
hurt my back and I had my phoneon Do Not Disturb, but she's one
of the people that whosemessages still come through.
And she sent me a message in allcaps like, I know you're
hurting, get moving.
You've got this.
(38:12):
Like she's just, I feel likeshe, everyone needs like one of
her in their lifetime to betheir biggest cheerleader.
and like I said, my circle offriends has changed
dramatically, in the bestpossible way.
I'm surrounding myself now Ithink with people who inspire me
to be better, and to do better,and who understand all of this.
(38:37):
We have a shared experience thatwe can support one another and
just send a random text like,hey, thinking of you.
And it's really been justwonderful.
Dr. Dean (38:49):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Thank you.
Do you have any favoritememories of you and Teddy that
you want to share?
Jen Hoye (38:56):
So many.
Dr. Dean (38:58):
many as you want.
Jen Hoye (39:00):
We had a pretty free range childhood, like most kids
in the seventies and eighties.
We were just like streeturchins.
and we lived in thisneighborhood with tons of kids,
and you just went outside andthat was your life.
Like you were outside, youcouldn't come inside for any
reason.
Even if somebody was bleeding,it didn't matter.
(39:21):
And we, we did everythingtogether.
We fought all, like when I saywe fought all the time, like
there was a period of time whereour parents were like, okay, you
cannot step foot in each other'srooms, because we would just go
in and just do stuff to annoyone another.
But one thing that I love to dowith him is, I had this like
(39:43):
pretty big closet in my bedroomand my grandma would sneak us
these big candy bars and I wouldkeep them in a bag in my closet.
And I loved to read.
and so I would sit in my closetwith my candy bars and my
strawberry shortcake sleepingbag and a, a light, and I would
read and my brother would comein and sit with me and he would
play cars and we would just staythere for, for hours until
(40:06):
somebody was like, where areyou?
A lot of times he was just, likeyou would be like, oh, Teddy,
like all the time.
what are you doing now?
but it was so funny.
It was so always so funny.
and growing up we lived inwalking distance of our
grandparents' house and a lot ofour relatives and we have, set
(40:29):
of cousins who, the girl cousinis 25 days older than me, and
the boy is close in age, wasclose in age to my brother, and
the four of us were raised likesiblings.
We spent a lot of time at mygrandparents' house with my
cousins.
And some of our best memoriesare just, us getting, I don't
remember what we did leading upto it, but we always got in
(40:51):
trouble for something.
And if one of us got punished,all four of us got punished and
each of us had a different spotin my grandma's house where you
had to have your like, time out.
But my brother had to be in aspot where he couldn't see
anybody because he would justmake everybody laugh.
Dr. Dean (41:06):
Mm.
Sounds like a really goodbrother, and that you were
really close.
Jen Hoye (41:15):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (41:16):
Yeah.
Thank you for sharing all ofthis and this conversation.
I'm so glad that we finallyconnected.
Jen Hoye (41:23):
Thank you.
Dr. Dean (41:24):
You're welcome.
Thanks for being on.
Thank you so much for listening.
Our theme song was written byJoe Mylwood and Brian Dean, and
was performed by Joe Mylwood.
If you would like moreinformation on the broken pack,
go to our website, the brokenpack.com.
Be sure to sign up for ournewsletter, Wild Grief, to learn
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(41:44):
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