July 26, 2023 • 50 mins
Coping with Sibling Loss: A Journey of Grief and Transformation with Stefanie Joseph
In this episode of The Broken Pack: Stories of Adult Sibling Loss, surviving sibling, Stefanie Joseph, shares her sibling loss experience of losing her sister Jen to bacterial meningitis during the pandemic. She shares how difficult losing her sister was and how her grief has influenced her work as a business coach and grief support specialist as well as changes in family dynamics, her somatic work, and her podcast (previously called and referenced to in the show as Moving Grief podcast).
Key points:
- Navigating the unique challenges of sibling loss and grief.
- The importance of support and understanding for surviving siblings.
- Using somatic work to cope with grief and trauma.
- How sibling loss can affect family dynamics.
- Finding strength and meaning after sibling loss.
Throughout the episode, Stefanie also discusses:
- How her experience has shaped her work as a business coach and grief support specialist.
- Continuing bonds with Jen
- The importance of raising awareness about the impact of sibling loss.
To learn more about Stefanie, please visit:
Her website: https://stefaniejoseph.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/StefanieJosephBrand/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/_stefaniejoseph/
Her podcast ( previously called Moving Grief): Stefanie Joseph Podcast - surrendering to life's journey
If you would like more information or to share your own adult sibling loss story, please contact me, Dr. Angela Dean, at contact@thebrokenpack.com or go to our website, thebrokenpack.com.
Please like, subscribe, and share!
Please follow us on social media:
Facebook: @BrokenPack
Instagram: @thebrokenpack
TikTok: @the_broken_pack
YouTube: @thebrokenpack
Sign-up for Wild Grief™, our newsletter: https://thebrokenpack.com/newsletter
Thank you!
Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT
Credits:
The Broken Pack™ Podcast is produced by 27 Elephants Media
"If Tomorrow Starts Without Me" © ℗ 2023, 2024
Written by Joe Mylward and Brian Dean
Performed by Fuji Sounds (feat. MYLWD.)
Licensed for use by The Broken Pack™
Now available on all streaming platforms including Apple Music & Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/3vx3kk46
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Dean (00:12):
Hello and welcome to the Broken Pack, a podcast
focused on giving adultsurvivors of sibling loss, a
platform to share their storiesand to be heard.
Something that many sibling losssurvivors state that they never
have had.
Sibling Loss is Misunderstood™.
The Broken Pack exists to changethat and to support survivors.
(00:32):
I'm your host, Dr.
Angela Dean.
Stefanie Joseph joined me fortoday's episode about losing her
sister Jen during the pandemicfrom meningitis.
She shares how difficult losingher sister was and how her grief
has influenced her work as abusiness coach and grief support
specialist.
We also discuss changes infamily dynamics, her somatic
(00:54):
work, and her Moving GriefPodcast.
Take a listen.
Welcome to the show.
I was wondering if you wanted tointroduce yourself.
Stefanie (01:10):
Yes, I would love to.
Hi, everybody, I'm StefanieJoseph.
Angela and I are meeting for thefirst time in the recording that
we've been following both ofeach other on Instagram.
And so thank you first of allfor having me on here.
I, first and foremost, am a Mom.
and that definitely is thehighlight of my world.
(01:31):
But in that I'm also amultifaceted entrepreneur.
We'll get more into that, as therecording goes on.
I live in Salt Lake City, Utah.
I love the summer, so I'menjoying this summer month and
this, last summer was verydifferent and so we're enjoying
just the slow.
Just normalcy of of it.
(01:51):
So I guess that's what I'mfeeling called to introduce,
cause I know we'll get into themeat of it as we get going.
Dr. Dean (01:57):
Thank you for that introduction.
Did you wanna say a little bitmore about what you do with
grief work?
Stefanie (02:02):
Yeah.
I do support people in grief.
It was a really interestingunfolding of how it comes about.
I've always been a pretty openbook when it comes to my socials
and sharing my journey and theentrepreneur world.
Losing my sister took it to awhole nother level and I
realized, all of the personalwork that I had done up to the
(02:23):
point of losing her last yearallowed me to really be present
in the experience while she wasin her coma.
And, I had a post go viral.
6 million people watched a videoof hers and it really allowed me
to see that there's so manypeople hurting.
There's so many people in grief,and it's also a very
uncomfortable topic for mostpeople.
(02:45):
So I'm like, okay, I can dothis.
And it's been a little bit of ajourney because I also honor my
capacity in being very active inmy grief, I'm only the first
year into losing my sister.
I do have a program out therethat, walks through the somatic
side of it and processing grieffrom the somatic lens.
And we also look at beliefs.
(03:05):
I have a beautiful exercise thatwalks you through shifting your
beliefs because I think thatdeath in particular, it gives
you the opportunity to look andsay, what do I really believe
in?
So it's a go at your own paceprogram.
then in that I do a once a monthgathering over Zoom that it's
not really grief support, it'sjust a space that we can come
(03:26):
together and talk.
I'm shifting more into lifeafter is what I'm calling it.
I wanted to create a space wherepeople can just talk about their
loved ones because I noticedthat as time goes on, more
people move on in their life andI still want to just share
everything and anything abouther.
(03:46):
And so that's that space that wemeet once a month over Zoom, and
I'm actually gonna open that uppublicly.
Before it was going to be justthose that participate in the
program, but it's gonna be openstarting this month.
Dr. Dean (03:57):
Thank you for sharing all of that.
What would you like us to knowabout Jennifer before she died?
Stefanie (04:03):
Jennifer was Jen, as I call her.
She was a traveler, a worldtraveler.
She liked to live in adventure.
She had just got her MBA fromthe University of Edinburgh.
You never can say that, right?
When you're out there, you sayvery differently, but.
She, she truly lived life andthis was an opportunity for her
(04:25):
that she was doing it on herterms.
She had gone through a lot ofstuff.
My dad passed away in 2014 andthe same year she actually went
through a divorce and she wentthrough a lot and I, I remember
talking to her before she tookoff.
She's I'm finally doingsomething for
Dr. Dean (04:41):
Mm.
Stefanie (04:42):
And that's to be able to watch her do that through a
pandemic.
At that, she still made the mostof it.
And, she graduated and then was,had moved back to California and
was working and then got sick.
But she just lived, she lived,she had a, a puppy that was her
baby.
Mr.
(05:02):
Jiggles was along for thejourney.
He actually ended up going toScotland with her.
He passed away out there.
he was 14, 15 years old, so shehad him for, it was her partner,
her partner in crime.
Dr. Dean (05:13):
So what was it like, what was your relationship like
with her?
Stefanie (05:17):
We really grew close over the last, I would say 10
years.
We're only three years apart,but there was six kids in the
family growing up, and betweenher and I, we were the break
between the big kids and thelittle kids.
And so it was a lot of just thatsibling, just sibling fighting
and she was the kid that stolemy clothes and all of that.
(05:39):
But in our early twenties wemoved in together and started
creating that bond from theadult connection where it's
okay, let bygones be bygones.
Let's let the past go.
We were kids.
And I would say that was thebeginning of really that
connection.
And she left Utah and was nevergoing to return to Utah.
(06:01):
And so she would come back.
She was like the travelingAuntie and the favorite Auntie
of my kids.
They, loved having her here.
But we built that bond reallyover the last five to 10 years
you We were very different.
Our personalities were verydifferent.
But I think that's what workedfor us because she could keep me
grounded and she keeps me, keptme in like the realistics of
(06:22):
life.
I, I'm a dreamer and alwayschasing the dreams and she was
more of a real realistic realismperson, that, life kind of sucks
sometimes.
and I was always that let's justsprinkle love and light on it.
Let's make sure, we're justsmiling through the pain and.
it definitely changed a lot ofmy perspectives when I lost her
(06:44):
and, realized that there issadness and that there is
suffering, and if we just bypassthat and ignore it, it
definitely finds its way out.
Dr. Dean (06:54):
Yeah, for sure.
I can see that that's even hardfor you to say right now.
Mm-hmm.
Stefanie (07:01):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (07:02):
So your relationship changed over time, and it sounds
like you were pretty close whenshe passed.
Stefanie (07:08):
Yeah, she actually, she came here.
This was, is an important partof it is, so she graduated in
December of 2021 and in betweenjobs she moved in with us.
So she was here for about threemonths staying with us, the
beginning of 2022.
And it was, being able to lookback and be so grateful that we
(07:31):
had that time together and, the,what was going to be happening
that year, that reallysolidified our time and also
opened up like we drove her backto California.
My kids and I, and theconversation driving back was
really fascinating because wehad opened up more than we
talked in a long time, You know,you realize sometimes life just
(07:52):
becomes surface, right?
You're just all going, doingyour own thing.
And, we had, 12 hours in a car,just the two of us talking.
And, we were able to talk aboutmy dad's death, which we hadn't
done in eight years, and, I'mvery grateful for it, and I'm
grateful that my kids got tohave that time with her.
Dr. Dean (08:11):
Does she have children?
Stefanie (08:13):
she doesn't.
Her puppy.
Dr. Dean (08:16):
So what are you comfortable sharing about losing
Jen?
Stefanie (08:21):
June 23rd, we got a call that she was on her way to
the hospital.
She had been sick with Covid andI had talked to her a couple
weeks before and then just textmessage here and there, from
that time.
And she was very independent andshe definitely was my father's
child.
He didn't go to the hospitalwhen he was sick.
And ultimately, we lost, he hadcancer.
(08:43):
It was a very different, death.
But, so yeah, she went into thehospital, just was complaining
of some headaches and somebackaches, thinking it was still
related to Covid.
She had talked to, a telehealthand they just said you gotta
rest, drink lots of fluids.
And, unfortunately it wasn'tjust Covid.
She had picked up bacterialmeningitis, along the way.
(09:04):
She made it to the hospital,made it to the ER, was checking
herself in, and then, she gotthere between 12 and two.
And then went into a, a coma byseven and, unresponsive.
And, I was, I was here in Utah,just her best friend was with
her and we were listening orgetting in the updates, in real
time.
But I could already look backand say how just instantly went
(09:27):
into that fight or flight, Justthat trauma response of not
knowing what was going on andthinking, okay, she's intubated,
she's not gonna make it.
Cuz that's what you would hearfrom the Covid side, right?
somebody got intubated, theywere, not gonna make it.
So I'm like, they can't do that.
And they're like, no, we don'treally have a choice.
and so anyway, I was workingwith the doctors overnight as
they were doing emergencyprocedures to just ultimately
(09:50):
try and save her life.
And the emergency procedureshelped.
She was in her coma for fiveweeks and we were able to see
some responses from her, somemovements through the eyes and
arms.
And until you face a traumaticbrain injury, you don't really
know what, it's not reallysomething people talk
Dr. Dean (10:10):
Right?
Stefanie (10:11):
trauma in general, but also it just becomes this
waiting game of finding out whatthe damage was done to, the
brain and ultimately thecombination of all the infection
and everything is whatultimately took her.
Dr. Dean (10:25):
Mm-hmm.
So you went out to Californiathen?
Stefanie (10:30):
Yeah, yeah.
I was, I was able, thankfully,was able to be out there for the
first 10 days while she was inthe hospital.
Dr. Dean (10:36):
Yeah.
Stefanie (10:36):
Yeah, I'm a very spiritual person and I am one of
those people that, I, I live ina life of surrender.
I started that myself in 2021,where it's you know what?
I don't, I'm just gonna," Let,let go and let God" essentially
was my mantra, and I got laidoff in May of 2021.
Which was very fascinating andalso was not planned.
(10:58):
And so then to be able to godown there and I have, two
children, I'm married, I,thankfully had some family
support that was able to comeover and help while I went down
there and was able to be by herbedside the first, 10 days that
she was in the hospital.
I realize the privilege in thatand I'm also so very grateful
(11:20):
that we, me and her best friendwas also there and a lot of my
family came down and we wereable to tag team it the whole
time that she was in thehospital.
She very rarely, we missed a dayof having somebody in there
talking to her and, remindingher how much that she was loved.
And I'm just very grateful thatI was able to be there and watch
(11:41):
it and be very present in it.
and that it truly is where thesomatic work, supported me.
I took a class in the springjust for business.
I wanted to just get more intune with my body and bring
somatic work in my business.
And the last class was the weekthat she went into the hospital.
And to have that knowledge andthe awareness around being
(12:04):
present in my body to sit.
Her to sit with me and facingthat trauma and was like, I
don't know.
I'm glad to not know what itwould've been like without that,
Dr. Dean (12:17):
Mm-hmm.
Stefanie (12:18):
if that makes
Dr. Dean (12:19):
It does, and it's, it's fascinating when you have
that awareness of just how muchthe mind and the body are
connected.
That,
Stefanie (12:26):
Absolutely.
Dr. Dean (12:27):
Do you wanna say more about that?
Stefanie (12:29):
I would love to, because I come from, I'm not a
trained.
therapist or practitioner.
I'm a more on the coaching sideand the holistic coaching side.
So if when I share, I'm comingtruly from my own personal
bodily experience through this.
And for me, somatics allows meto be present with my body to
(12:51):
really witness the emotions thatwould come through.
And also when I was sitting withher, like feeling into her body,
she couldn't speak to us andcouldn't tell us.
You know what direction we weregoing.
She didn't have a healthdirective.
We had no clue from thelogistical side of what we
should be doing.
It was truly just trusting,trusting my body, trusting, my
(13:15):
family was involved in thedecision making, but I being
able to sit by her bedside andfeel.
What was going on with her andfeel what was going on with me.
That's, to me, was the somaticpiece that allowed me to be
present in that whole time thatI was there.
And I remember it just came upon my time hop.
I went to a coffee shop beforegoing to the hospital, and I
(13:38):
actually took time to enjoy thecoffee and I got some, they had
the most amazing avocado toasts,you know, Southern California
and.
I took the time, and just satwith it and had the, my coffee
and then the toast, and then Icalled my friend and I'm like, I
just wanna sit here.
I just wanna sit here.
And then the guilt came over oflike, I should be at the
(13:59):
hospital with her.
But the somatic piece is whatlet me sit with that guilt and
say, no, I deserve.
I'm a caretaker right now.
That's what I need right now.
And the nurses in her facilitywere amazing at letting us, or
reminding us that we arecaretaking and we have to keep
caretake for ourselves first.
But yeah, just processing thatguilt and then being able to go
(14:21):
to the hospital and be, okay,now I'm here.
This is where I'm at.
This is what we're here to do.
I, I don't know that I couldhave done that without that
awareness around.
I've done a lot of work on,shadow work and emotional
processing and all of that, butto physically feel it and to let
it move through, that's thepiece that was really big for me
(14:43):
because with my dad, he passedin 2014.
I just shoved it down.
We don't talk about it.
I don't like, I'm okay, and overtime I've ultimately, I've been
able to process it, but it was avery different experience of him
versus this loss of, no, I'mactually gonna feel it, because
feeling is healing to
Dr. Dean (15:02):
Mm-hmm.
Stefanie (15:03):
And if I can feel it, I can allow for more of, all the
emotions to come through.
Dr. Dean (15:08):
Have you continued that work into your grief?
Stefanie (15:13):
yes.
yes.
I've continued the work, so I,the, I follow holistic life
navigation is, the person that Ifollow on the somatic side, and
I'm now in a practitioner groupand we've been in calls of what
is your work?
And I have this strange like I'ma business coach and then I'm,
wanna support people in grief,which also includes supporting
(15:35):
me through the grief cuz there'sno timeline of healing.
There's no.
time that, let's just get overthis.
This is very, very present andI've realized how much grief is
present in my body.
in fact, I just saw a friendposted that, cliche thing about
your thoughts create yourreality.
And I'm like, oh, I used to bethat.
(15:57):
And I do think that there istruth in it.
I don't think it's all the truthbecause.
For me, my body shows me when mygrief is very, very present and
what my grief feels like.
And in the past it would've beenlike, if I don't think about the
sadness, if I can bypass it andplacate it or avoid it, if I can
(16:18):
just let it go right then I'mgonna create more, more things
to be grateful for.
All of that, that stuff.
And what the sematic piece hasshown me is that it will pop up
at very unexpected
Dr. Dean (16:30):
Mm-hmm.
Stefanie (16:31):
And I can't just suppress it and bypass it
because it changes like how Iinteract with my kids.
It changes how I interact withothers, changes how I interact
with my clients.
And so when it's very, verypresent in my body, I've, I get
to honor my body and I get tosee where my capacity is on a
day-to-day basis.
(16:52):
Instead of just that typicallike just push through
mentality.
Dr. Dean (16:57):
and I think that's so important to acknowledge and
something that's so difficult.
Especially, I think in oursociety to acknowledge that, any
emotions are affecting our bodyphysically.
But then grief is many emotions.
And I think what you're hintingat too is you can't really heal
from it.
We're living with it forever.
(17:19):
And so how, how do you learn tolive with it physically?
And I love that you're awarethat it's impacting your
children and your your familyand your work.
Stefanie (17:30):
Yeah.
And I, I think that's the piecethat's really interesting for
me.
Like I said, I wanted to sup, Isupport people in grief and then
I'm also in
Dr. Dean (17:39):
Mm-hmm.
Stefanie (17:40):
and, and you're doing the same thing.
It's like we we're creating thiscommunity and creating
connection to let people knowthat they're not alone in their
grief.
And sibling loss has a whole, I,I never really thought about
losing a sibling, right?
I have lost my father, and, thatis the natural timing, if there
is any of death.
(18:02):
But I, I really think it's superimportant that to honor that
peace in, especially for thoseof us that speak out about it,
right?
That we are going to havemoments where I don't have the
capacity to hold space for else,and it's my body that's gonna
show me that, and I can't denythat part.
Dr. Dean (18:22):
So what do you do with that when you start to realize
you're in a place where youcan't support other people?
Stefanie (18:28):
I'm very open, those that work with me understand
that part that there might be arescheduling or a time that we,
just, it's really fascinatingcuz it, it naturally comes out
that way.
I run a accountability group andwe meet weekly and last week we
all got on and there was justthis energy of I don't have this
(18:50):
capacity, but I personallydidn't speak out about it
because I was like, oh, I'm theone leading and it was really
interesting cuz electronicsweren't working right.
I couldn't get my computer towork.
It was just fascinating.
And one of my clients, she'slike, wait, are we supposed to
be doing something else?
And just that, that one pause ofwait a minute.
(19:11):
We, we said we were going to dothis, but what's going on?
So we all just took a minute ofjust okay, fill into our bodies,
what's going on?
And then we just opened up theconversation, just talk.
And I hadn't really thoughtabout it until you just asked
that question, but I am creatingan environment where each one of
us can honor our capacity.
(19:31):
And somebody might not be anactive grief that I'm working
with, but they know where I'mcoming from and that's why I
intertwine grief, Like I said,it's this weird combination of
here I want to intuitively coachin business and oh, I'm gonna
post about being sad oversomething and, thinking about
Jen, but I, I will attractpeople and I've set the
(19:53):
intention that people that arein my space will know this part
about me.
And as I grow and as I continueto move it, like you said, the
grief is with me.
And that has been a hugeacceptance.
And I talk about that all thetime, that cuz I've had many
people, well don't you justlike, why can't you be present
(20:15):
here?
I'm like, oh, I'm 100%
Dr. Dean (20:16):
Mm-hmm.
Stefanie (20:17):
I went for a walk with a friend and he was sharing his
experience of losing his bestfriend and he's like, you know
what I do is just, I'm here now.
And I'm oh yeah, I'm 100% herenow too.
That doesn't dismiss that a partof me and it moves in my body
that a part of me is longing forher.
Wishing that she can come onthis hike with us doesn't mean
(20:40):
that I'm not present.
It just means that I'm feelingit.
I went off on a little weird
Dr. Dean (20:45):
No, I think it's a
Stefanie (20:46):
through.
Dr. Dean (20:46):
tangent and I, I love how the, you're, you're bringing
grief alongside you, andsometimes that works.
And sometimes that's all right.
We're gotta take a break here.
yeah.
Stefanie (20:58):
Yeah, and I have a podcast.
It's been stagnant cuz it'scalled Moving Grief and I don't
know where to move with it.
It's been really interestingbecause, it came through in,
intuitively, it was definitelymeant to be birthed, to come
out.
And I was sharing stories ofgrief like you do, of bringing
people on and.
(21:20):
Over the last couple weeks.
I'm like, I don't, I don't knowwhat it is cuz I don't, I don't
know where I'm moving with mygrief right now, And so I'm
giving myself permission that Idon't have to know.
And I've received feedback thatthey've loved the episodes and
sometimes they're the mostrandom pieces cuz that's what
grief
Dr. Dean (21:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
Stefanie (21:39):
it's so random.
Dr. Dean (21:41):
Yeah, for sure.
You don't know what to expect orhow it's gonna show up sometimes
and it's adjusting to that.
Yeah.
Stefanie (21:48):
Yeah,
Dr. Dean (21:49):
It sounds like you find a lot of support
professionally.
Would you say that personallyyou've also had a lot of
support?
Stefanie (21:58):
Yeah.
I definitely have, a beautifulnetwork.
My family, like Jen and I, weredefinitely the closest in the
siblings.
I've learned to have compassionfor others that are grieving
her.
And, sometimes it feels like I'min this own, my own little
world, right?
Because I, I have myrelationship with her and then
so-and-so has a relationship andI feel a lot of times,
(22:21):
especially in family units, it'soh, you should be feeling this
way.
And.
it's been really interesting tojust kinda let it go and be
like, I can't, there, there'snot a right way to do any of
this.
And I think that's why I am socalled to share from my
experience, cuz this is myexperience of handling it.
Somebody could resonate with meand, and not resonate with what
(22:41):
I'm sharing.
But, through my family, we've,we've definitely become closer.
We, were communicating a lotwhile she was in the hospital
and afterwards, cuz we are very,I'd say a pretty disconnected
family, like we're on, on ourown little islands.
and so losing her brought ustogether.
that's like my extended my, mysibling family.
(23:03):
And then my, my little group, myhusband and my kids like, We
definitely, COVID really got uscentered into each other, so
there's another okay thankfulfor the timing of things.
Because, we've spent the lastthree years really grounding
into what our foundation is as afamily.
and then definitely the, thefriend network and that I picked
(23:26):
up some beautiful friends thatwere Jen's and, spending the
time in the hospital with herbest friend.
We now.
are connected for life.
And, so yes, 100%.
I, I feel supported.
And I, it's interesting cuzsometimes, even as I'm talking,
sometimes I feel like I need todo it alone.
(23:48):
And I, I don't know if that'smiddle child syndrome, like I
gotta be the, the strong one.
I don't know, there's justsomething it's just bringing up
something as you were talkingright now of I have such amazing
support and I also still attimes don't reach out for that
support, especially when it'sthe heaviest times.
Dr. Dean (24:06):
Is it that you feel you need to do it alone or that
you want to do it alone?
Stefanie (24:11):
ooh, I think it more is along the the, I want to do
it alone.
Dr. Dean (24:16):
And I think let's normalize that.
That's okay that you can grievewith people, but it's so
personal.
It's a very personal experiencethat sometimes you don't want
that noise.
You wanna be able to workthrough it.
Stefanie (24:31):
Yeah.
Thank you for that.
Dr. Dean (24:32):
Mm-hmm.
You're welcome.
It's been true for me as well,but also people that I work
with, I've seen that.
Stefanie (24:40):
Why do you think that is?
Dr. Dean (24:42):
There were times that you had a relationship with your
sister that those moments wherenobody else had them, and I
think there's this sense of howcould you not need time to work
through that?
When that relationship is sounique and to you and her Also,
(25:02):
for me, I think personally it'sbeen, there's some people that
just don't understand what myrelationship was like with my
brother.
Cause it it, waxed and wanedover time or ages and phases
and, but there was a, a solidthread through that that people
may or may not have seendepending on when they met us.
(25:23):
And so I don't wanna beinvalidated, and sometimes I
just need to validate myself andthe way that I need to.
So I don't know if that's truefor you as well
Stefanie (25:33):
Yeah, that does resonate.
I was, I'm just, I was talkingto my daughter today about
siblings cuz they got in anargument.
My, my son and daughter got inan argument
Dr. Dean (25:42):
as
Stefanie (25:42):
she's like, mom, did you guys.
Yeah, I know.
And she says, did you guys fightwhen you were kids?
I'm like, yes, all of the time.
And so we were just talkingthrough that and I said, there's
something about your sibling.
You don't choose them.
Right?
Like you would a friend andthey're with you for life,
whether you know you, I knowsiblings can separate and like
(26:06):
you said, it, it can, and gothrough its natural ebb and
flow.
But I, there's like this innatebond and I also said I sometimes
the people that you love themost are the ones that drive you
the most nuts.
Right?
And Jen and I's relationship wasunique and I catch myself not
giving myself that permission toreally celebrate the uniqueness
(26:29):
because I know I wasn't her onlyclose person and she's not my
only close person.
So I love that you brought thatin because that is, it gives me
permission to really celebratethat thread that we had.
And I, I've said it before on mysocial media and to friends,
that parts of me died with her,and it's not something you can
(26:53):
plan for.
And also, I'm still figuring outwhat to do with that.
Dr. Dean (26:59):
Yeah.
and you're still very early inthe grief.
We both are like, a year is notthat.
When is the anniversary?
It's coming up, right?
Stefanie (27:09):
July 30th.
Yeah.
I feel that, she chose to go.
that's actually something I not,I don't talk publicly about, but
I do want to begin sharing that.
Because I, I remember when we,when I first got to the hospital
and seeing her in the state thatshe was.
So five weeks of yes, littleresponses, but ultimately in a
(27:32):
coma for that five weeks.
And I remember going into herroom and sitting with her after
the initial shock of it all andjust saying, SIS, you get to
choose this.
You have a team of doctors thatknow what they're doing from the
medical standpoint.
She was in an amazing hospitalwith great care.
Like state of the art, literallyno stones were not turned.
(27:53):
Like she, she truly had the bestcare.
And ultimately, I said, just youmake the choice because I don't
know if I'm strong enough tomake that choice for you.
And ultimately she did, like herdifferent organs started
shutting down.
I remember I saw her on a videocause I had come back home.
(28:14):
So I went back and forth in thefive weeks and we, we were able
to FaceTime while she was in thehospital.
And, just seeing her, I'm like,Ooh, something's different.
Something she's more restful.
She looked very peaceful, but itwas more restful.
And then it was July 22nd.
there was just so many.
I'm really big into signs andsynchronicities and, and there
(28:36):
was, a random guy that my friendand I ran into that his, his.
TikTok account was primal and hehad a shirt on that I didn't
even notice until a few weeksago if my sister-in-law pointed
out it says, something about,let the music, come out, just
these interesting signs.
And I came home that day afterbeing out and seeing her on the
camera and wondering if, and wehad also been told by the
(28:59):
doctors that they were startingto, not see the same eye
movements and the signs from herpupils.
And I was in the shower and Ijust said, Jen, just show me
where you're at.
Show me give me something tojust understand where you are.
And I saw a field of yellowflowers and her face and she
said, I'm happy.
(29:20):
That's all that was said.
And it gave me the peace.
And then also just this oh no,this might be the time.
And I went outside and wassitting on the deck.
And within 30 minutes her bestfriend texted me and she was
showing me a picture of a tattoothat she wanted, that Jen wanted
to get.
She wanted to get a bouquet offlowers of all the people that
were close to her.
(29:40):
And and I said, oh, that'sreally interesting.
I just had this vision of her inthese yellow flowers.
And she goes, oh, like this.
And she sent me a picture thatthey had taken years ago of Jen
in these yellow
Dr. Dean (29:51):
Oh wow.
Stefanie (29:52):
And it was like, I get chills even talking about it
now.
And I was like, she really ishappy.
And you know that yes, the grieflives within me and I feel the
sadness of the loss of her.
And then there's also this partof me that knows that she chose
and that she is happy.
Like I, I don't know what'sgonna happen after we all die,
(30:14):
but I.
I believe in my heart that wedon't physically die, it's just
the next phase.
but just to have thoseconfirmation and even like a
Dove, one single dove, it wasabout a teenager, she was a
smaller bird, came up on herfence and my husband was able to
almost touch the dove.
And I was like, she was lettingus know, like it just, yeah.
Dr. Dean (30:36):
What a beautiful connection and story.
it's more than a story, right?
there was definitely, I don'teven know what you call that,
but thank you for sharing.
Stefanie (30:45):
Yeah,
Dr. Dean (30:46):
Yeah.
Stefanie (30:47):
I have lots of them.
And one day I'm writing a book.
It's no words were spoken yet.
So much was said.
And it, it's yet to be writtenbecause I'm still processing and
like you said, it's only been ayear.
So I'm like, okay, I want likereally the correct message to be
Dr. Dean (31:03):
Yeah.
Stefanie (31:04):
because when you watch somebody transition out of this
world, for me, there was a lotof peace around it.
And then there's, there's alsothis, the part of the heaviness
and the sadness and so toliterally, it's this, this
juggling ball, I'm like, thisjuggling match my head of I know
(31:24):
she's okay and yet dammit, I'mhere without her like, Yes.
Dr. Dean (31:29):
In that moment, you are not okay.
Even though you know she is.
She is.
Yeah.
So were you there when shepassed?
Stefanie (31:38):
Yeah.
When we went back down, my momwent down and, my best friend
came as well.
You could tell.
You could tell.
and like I said, I, I said, justmake sure that we all know,
right?
Don't leave us questioning ifwe're making, any the health
decisions on her behalf.
And, one of the nurses that weworked with at the end, Peggy,
(32:00):
I'll never forget Peggy, becauseshe was just as real as they
come, as real as they come, andshe was just, she's look at your
sister.
She's, she's gonna be okay.
And she's also not okay in thisform, cuz when you're dealing
with the coma, right?
There's the thought of are theygonna be a paraplegic?
What is the, the outcome thatcan come from a brain injury and
(32:25):
so it could be this gamut ofpossibilities.
I know for her, and I love thatyou asked about the Jen before
she passed away, was theadventure Anything short of her
being able to travel and liveindependently was the Jen.
Peggy reminded us that, you knowwhat, sometimes life just sucks
and there's no answers and youpick up the pieces and you keep
(32:47):
moving.
It's not moving on.
Cuz I've definitely been throughthat.
It's just moving with it.
You pick up the pieces and youjust move.
Dr. Dean (32:53):
Yeah.
And I think that's also aconscious choice, right?
Like you could stay stuck, butit's not really a choice that we
have.
and moving on isn't, that seemsdismissive.
So I, I do think, I like how yousaid it, just moving.
Stefanie (33:09):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (33:10):
Has your relationship with your siblings, you said
you're closer now.
How about with your mom?
You hadn't mentioned her untiljust a few minutes ago, and feel
free to not answer any question.
Stefanie (33:22):
Yeah, no.
it goes back to what you weresaying, you ha grieving can be
an individual thing and let'snormalize that conversation
because my mom lost a daughterand the old version of Stefanie
would be like, okay Mom, whatdoes Mom need?
Because Mom got the biggestpain, right?
The biggest heartache.
(33:43):
Mom's surviving and she'sworking through, we are closer.
We are, I think, death, for usdeath reminded us how close it
can be, right?
And how unexpected any, any oneof us can go.
She's more of the Grandma thatstays on the sidelines, Grandma.
And I've seen her come around alot more and I've seen her
(34:06):
wanting to be involved and Idon't know if it's from the
perspective of she's 78 and herhealth isn't the best.
And so I'll just speak formyself.
I, I feel like.
Her coming more around is that,I'm sorry and I want to make the
most of what we have and there'sstill parts of me that I know I
(34:29):
can be better.
But then, so there's the partslike, I'm hurting too, and I
can, I can be okay with that.
Dr. Dean (34:38):
Yeah.
Stefanie (34:40):
I definitely took on a lot of the mother type duties
while Jen was in her coma.
But I didn't really give anybodya choice, and I'm gonna own that
because I, that was, that waswhere I needed to be.
And I, it was like no questionsasked.
I just get to be here.
I'm doing it right.
(35:00):
And, was some things thathappened at the very beginning,
which I won't share publicly,but there was some stuff that
happened that changed the waythat my role.
But then I also look, I'm like,I don't know that I would've
done it differently because I amthe take charge.
I was the kid that took chargeof all of the siblings, like
being the one that rallied usall together to, I remember when
(35:24):
I was probably like 10 yearsold, my little brother was in
the hospital and maybe eveneight.
Rallied us all together and wewalked to the hospital while my
mom was there.
I was always that kid.
And we've had a beautifulconversation where she thanked
me for being there.
And, I don't know that she, Idon't know that she would've
made some of the same decisions,in honor of Jen.
(35:47):
It would've been maybe more ofwhat she wanted, and she
acknowledges that.
Dr. Dean (35:53):
Yeah.
it sounds like you've been anentrepreneur since you were a
little kid, so it makes sensethat you would take charge in
difficult decisions.
Stefanie (36:03):
Yes.
And I, my uncle passed away, acouple years ago and I was able
to be there during that as well.
And I know that there's a partof my work here is not only in
grief, but also in the support
Dr. Dean (36:19):
Mm-hmm.
Stefanie (36:20):
because I do feel like there's a lot of forgiveness and
there's a lot of surrender andletting go that can happen
around death.
I don't know where that's gonnalead for me, and I'm just
allowing the path to unfold.
I've looked at going back toschool, I'm like, oh, do I wanna
do that?
But it's more of it's more fromthe spiritual side of it that I,
I have witnessed it now a coupletimes, and, I feel like we can,
(36:46):
as a society, we can do betteraround death.
Dr. Dean (36:50):
Yeah, for sure.
Stefanie (36:52):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (36:53):
May I ask if the Uncle you lost, was that your Mom's
brother?
Stefanie (36:58):
Yes.
Dr. Dean (36:59):
So it's interesting, were you able to connect with
her on sibling loss at all?
Stefanie (37:05):
It's the first time I've ever put those two
together.
It's really interesting.
No, not yet.
Dr. Dean (37:11):
I'm just thinking from my experience that has actually
actually forged the relationshipwith my dad closer, cause we
both can relate on that.
So I'll be interested to followup with you on that at some
point to see what happens.
Stefanie (37:25):
I definitely am going to, Yes.
Talk to her about that.
Strange.
That has never even crossed my
Dr. Dean (37:32):
Mm-hmm.
it's also, you said earlier, wedon't think about losing
siblings and you have, fivesiblings, right?
Stefanie (37:42):
There's six of us total.
Dr. Dean (37:43):
Yeah.
So it's out of order, right?
Like we're
Stefanie (37:48):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (37:49):
not at the age where that normally happens yet.
and that's hard to think about.
Stefanie (37:54):
And she's one the baby, not the baby baby.
I have a younger brother, butshe's our baby,
Dr. Dean (38:00):
Yeah.
Stefanie (38:01):
And like I said, there was that gap when we were
growing up of the big kids andthe little kids.
And her and my, my youngestbrother were the little ones,
and so she's not supposed to go.
Dr. Dean (38:12):
Yeah, that's hard.
I would love to connect with youon this journey that you're on
and figuring out how you cansupport people in, in grief and
death and loss.
So we should chat sometime otherthan this podcast.
Stefanie (38:27):
I would love that It's so interesting cuz I've always
connected with your work.
I love the idea of the pack.
that's such an interesting, I'mvery big into animals and, I
said I, I love signs andsynchronicities.
Animals are one of those thatplay out and.
The pack.
There's just something there of,now there's been this piece
(38:49):
removed from the pack, And Idon't know, there's something
yes,
Dr. Dean (38:56):
So I, I've shared this before on the podcast, and it's
on the website too.
But the reason for that is mybrother loved wolfs.
And wolves grieve their siblingmates when they pass or, or
lost.
It's actually pretty fascinatingto read some of those stories,
yeah.
Are there other things you wishpeople knew about grief or loss
(39:16):
or sibling loss in particularthat you wish you had known a
year ago?
Stefanie (39:21):
I think the thing that's coming is you cannot
prepare for it.
And the relatability comes afterit happens.
That's where when that post wentviral, it was a lot of people
connecting on, oh, I lost mysister.
And there was also her puppythat was in it.
That was Where's the puppy?
Like People cared about wherethe dog was.
So it's an interesting questionof what do I wish people would
(39:42):
know is I hope you never have to
Dr. Dean (39:43):
Mm.
Stefanie (39:45):
And when you do know that you're not alone.
It's not something you can everplan for.
And there's, there's no rightway to figure it out either.
She's not the first person Ilost, and that's why it's been
interesting, like, why now talkabout this?
My dad will come through everyonce in a while.
(40:06):
I've, I've really, I'm at peacewith my dad.
I don't know if I can be atpeace with her being gone.
I don't know that that'spossible, but you can't ever
plan to know what this feelslike.
I guess also what comes withthat too is I wish more people
(40:27):
would really think about whatthey say to somebody in grief
somebody, especially at thefirst aftermath We're so
uncomfortable with it that wejust put these placated
statements out there and withoutany thought.
And I don't think people are,they mean Ill intent by'em.
We just don't think about it.
Multiple people say, I can'timagine losing my sister.
(40:50):
Well, don't freaking imagine it.
Cause
Dr. Dean (40:53):
Cuz we couldn't have either.
Stefanie (40:55):
Exactly.
And I can't imagine not havingher now here now, and that's, I
think that was the beginning ofme speaking out about my grief
is because I was gettingfrustrated and, that, let me
know if you need anything.
Stop saying that period.
if I could give anybody advice,stop saying that cuz somebody
that's in grief doesn't knowwhat they want.
And if they do figure out whatthey want, it will be hard for
(41:17):
them to
Dr. Dean (41:17):
Exactly.
Yeah.
Stefanie (41:18):
And are you also gonna be willing to do anything Cuz
anything is a
Dr. Dean (41:23):
Right,
Stefanie (41:24):
But that was what I began speaking out because I was
like, what is this?
people they not, they don'tthink about what.
Dr. Dean (41:30):
Yes, for sure.
Stefanie (41:33):
So maybe just think about it and then also there
will come a time where otherswill move on from your
Dr. Dean (41:40):
Mm-hmm.
Stefanie (41:41):
I feel like I'm getting at that point now.
I think that there will, I'll behaving that anniversary coming
up, but I definitely have beenfeeling that people will move on
with life.
So find the few people that youreally can connect and reach out
to just saying, I don't knowwhy, but I'm just feeling this.
(42:01):
And then if you want to be thatfriend and, and really, I had a,
a person on my podcast thatshared this advice and I loved
it.
She said she put the death datein her calendar of like anytime
anybody would die, that wasclose to her.
And she goes, I put it in thecalendar and then I forget about
it cuz they weren't close to me,but I'm close to the person that
lost'em.
And so then on the anniversaryshe reaches out and I'm like,
(42:25):
that's huge.
Dr. Dean (42:27):
Yeah, that is huge.
Yeah.
Stefanie (42:28):
I have, somebody in my life that has done that with my
dad every single year withoutfail.
I think more check-ins, like ifI can invite people to do more
check-ins, I don't know why it'ssuch a hard thing to talk about
and we all go through it.
We're all gonna experience lossand death in some form, but
(42:48):
we're also awkward around it.
I'm generalizing.
Dr. Dean (42:52):
No, I think, I think cuz I'm, I'm pretty involved in
this work elsewhere, not just inmy personal life and, for fun, I
was just reading the history ofDeath and Dying this past
weekend.
And that has changed the historybehind that is actually rather
fascinating about how theindustrial age had a lot to do
(43:14):
with our changing beliefs andapproaches to and attitudes
around death.
But, it wasn't always this way,when people died in the home
and.
Wakes were like traditional inthe house, and there was a lot
more comfort and care andsupport in talking about that
(43:34):
than happens now.
Stefanie (43:37):
Makes
Dr. Dean (43:37):
and then that's also a cultural general statement
that's not true everywhere.
Like in our family, everyonetalks about death.
That's just fact.
My husband.
But one point I was like, oh,you guys all that, that's all
you talk about.
It's not all we talk about.
Yeah.
Stefanie (43:55):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (43:57):
Thank you for sharing that.
I was wondering if you wanted toshare some favorite stories of
you and Jen.
Stefanie (44:03):
Oh.
I think for me definitely alwaysthe things that stand out is our
traveling together.
We had an annual girls trip andthat we were in Chicago and she
wanted to karaoke so bad.
She wanted to karaoke so bad,and the group, that wasn't like
the consensus of what activitythey wanted to do, and she was
(44:25):
just such a dis pissed and likemoping around.
And then we finally, we didn'tend up karaoking, but we found
somewhere and she just had this,you know what, screw it up type
attitude.
I'm gonna just make the most ofit.
And that was her common thing.
Once she finally put her heartand mind to it, she had a blast
(44:47):
anywhere she went.
No matter if it's the mostpathetic crowd or we ended up in
a place where there was, I meanby this time we were in probably
early thirties, I guess she'sthree years younger, but a bunch
of 21 year olds.
Not our crowd of demographics,right?
And just made the most of it.
But then she also didn't takecrap from people.
(45:08):
She was the type, we would besomewhere and she was always the
single one.
in, in the group when we'd go onthese trips and, these guys
would come up and hit on her andshe's are you really talking to
me?
And she would blatantly saythat, and you, we could see it
in her face, and they wouldn'tbe like, come save me.
She could handle herself.
that, that friend, she couldhandle herself.
There was this one time whenthis guy actually even came to
(45:29):
her celebration of life.
We were, at a friend of mine'shouse and Jen had come with us
and this guy came up and he'slike, oh, I know you.
She's like, no, you don't.
He's no, I do.
Jennifer Eberhardt.
And she's yeah.
She's we went to high schooltogether, and she's like, Oh, oh
yeah, I think I was too cool foryou back then.
(45:51):
And so then he came likeafterwards and he came to her
celebration of life and nowwe're Facebook friends.
Cuz he is like, yeah, yoursister was too cool for me, but
she had no problem saying it,lots of adventures.
She was always up for going theadventures when she would stay
with the kids.
One of my last favorite memoriesof her, she came out in the
summer 2021, and we went andfloated the river and she was
(46:16):
very cautious during the covidtimes that my family was too.
So it was, a little bit like,it's can we get out?
And I live in Utah, which is avery conservative state and not
as many precautions here.
And I remember earlier she'slike, okay, the, the river's the
safest place that we can be incuz we can be in our own little
bubble just going down theriver.
We had an amazing time.
(46:37):
We had a little cooler that camewith us and yeah, I share those
videos quite often.
Cuz that's the last real justfond, fond memory of us just
being fully present and justhaving a great time.
We shared a lot of bingewatching silly shows, me falling
asleep.
I loved seeing her when she wasin Scotland.
I feel like that was a time shereally was able to come alive.
(46:59):
She went out with the intention.
She didn't know anybody, so shewas going out alone and she
loved Scotland.
She loved not having to drive acar.
She was in California for mostof her adult life, so you can
imagine the complete opposite ofCalifornia LA traffic.
And then she goes out to,Scotland, the UK and, but she
(47:20):
was, she became this littleleader, mom type person in the
group doing the party planning.
She was an excellent partyplanner, excellent party
planner.
That girl could throw somethingtogether and she never could
just do it simple like costumes.
And, she sewed a lot, so she'dmake things for friends and
(47:40):
they'd, do themed parties andstuff.
Yeah, just I was able to go outfor her graduation.
And just seeing her in thatspace where she really, it was
like one of a year and a half ofher life that she just didn't
have responsibilities except forgetting her MBA.
And so she was able to reallyjust live it and enjoy it.
(48:01):
Oh I could probably go on andon.
Dr. Dean (48:04):
Thank you.
Do you have ways that you planto spend the anniversary?
Stefanie (48:09):
No, I have realized I've let go of expectations.
In fact, I was giving thatadvice to one of my clients,
because she was gonna be goingback and traveling and like that
they're stomping grounds.
And I realized her birthday wasMay 20th and we had done, went
to a ice cream place here and itwas a beautiful day and also it
(48:32):
it didn't meet expectations andit also did So it's that I've
learned to really let go ofexpecting what it's going to be
like that day.
It's strange cuz it's only a fewweeks away, but from now until
that time there was a lot ofhighs and lows.
My body's holding onto a lot ofthat, that I don't, I don't know
(48:53):
right now that I have thecapacity to really think ahead
of what that day is gonna
Dr. Dean (48:57):
Right.
So actually you have a lot ofanniversaries between now and
then.
Stefanie (49:02):
Yeah.
Yeah, a lot.
And it started a few weeks ago.
This just was a time of,unexpected it last year.
It feels like a freakinglifetime ago, and yet it was
only a year ago.
So I think what's on my agendais to just be present each day
(49:23):
and, allow the moments, talkthrough the moments and we'll
see.
Dr. Dean (49:33):
Sounds like a good plan, to take it as you need it.
Thank you so much.
I really enjoyed talking to you.
Stefanie (49:43):
Oh, thank you.
Me too.
Dr. Dean (49:46):
Thank you so much for listening.
Our theme song was written byJoe Mylwood and Brian Dean, and
was performed by Joe Mylwood.
If you would like moreinformation on the Broken Pack,
go to our website, the brokenpack.com.
Be sure to sign up for ournewsletter, Wild Grief, to learn
about opportunities and receiveexclusive information and
grieving tips for subscribers.
(50:06):
Information on that, our socialmedia and on our guests can be
found in the show notes whereveryou get your podcasts.
Please follow, subscribe, andshare.
Thanks again.
Hello and welcome to the Broken Pack, a podcast
focused on giving adultsurvivors of sibling loss, a
platform to share their storiesand to be heard.
Something that many sibling losssurvivors state that they never
have had.
Sibling Loss is Misunderstood™.
The Broken Pack exists to changethat and to support survivors.
(00:32):
I'm your host, Dr.
Angela Dean.
Stefanie Joseph joined me fortoday's episode about losing her
sister Jen during the pandemicfrom meningitis.
She shares how difficult losingher sister was and how her grief
has influenced her work as abusiness coach and grief support
specialist.
We also discuss changes infamily dynamics, her somatic
(00:54):
work, and her Moving GriefPodcast.
Take a listen.
Welcome to the show.
I was wondering if you wanted tointroduce yourself.
Stefanie (01:10):
Yes, I would love to.
Hi, everybody, I'm StefanieJoseph.
Angela and I are meeting for thefirst time in the recording that
we've been following both ofeach other on Instagram.
And so thank you first of allfor having me on here.
I, first and foremost, am a Mom.
and that definitely is thehighlight of my world.
(01:31):
But in that I'm also amultifaceted entrepreneur.
We'll get more into that, as therecording goes on.
I live in Salt Lake City, Utah.
I love the summer, so I'menjoying this summer month and
this, last summer was verydifferent and so we're enjoying
just the slow.
Just normalcy of of it.
(01:51):
So I guess that's what I'mfeeling called to introduce,
cause I know we'll get into themeat of it as we get going.
Dr. Dean (01:57):
Thank you for that introduction.
Did you wanna say a little bitmore about what you do with
grief work?
Stefanie (02:02):
Yeah.
I do support people in grief.
It was a really interestingunfolding of how it comes about.
I've always been a pretty openbook when it comes to my socials
and sharing my journey and theentrepreneur world.
Losing my sister took it to awhole nother level and I
realized, all of the personalwork that I had done up to the
(02:23):
point of losing her last yearallowed me to really be present
in the experience while she wasin her coma.
And, I had a post go viral.
6 million people watched a videoof hers and it really allowed me
to see that there's so manypeople hurting.
There's so many people in grief,and it's also a very
uncomfortable topic for mostpeople.
(02:45):
So I'm like, okay, I can dothis.
And it's been a little bit of ajourney because I also honor my
capacity in being very active inmy grief, I'm only the first
year into losing my sister.
I do have a program out therethat, walks through the somatic
side of it and processing grieffrom the somatic lens.
And we also look at beliefs.
(03:05):
I have a beautiful exercise thatwalks you through shifting your
beliefs because I think thatdeath in particular, it gives
you the opportunity to look andsay, what do I really believe
in?
So it's a go at your own paceprogram.
then in that I do a once a monthgathering over Zoom that it's
not really grief support, it'sjust a space that we can come
(03:26):
together and talk.
I'm shifting more into lifeafter is what I'm calling it.
I wanted to create a space wherepeople can just talk about their
loved ones because I noticedthat as time goes on, more
people move on in their life andI still want to just share
everything and anything abouther.
(03:46):
And so that's that space that wemeet once a month over Zoom, and
I'm actually gonna open that uppublicly.
Before it was going to be justthose that participate in the
program, but it's gonna be openstarting this month.
Dr. Dean (03:57):
Thank you for sharing all of that.
What would you like us to knowabout Jennifer before she died?
Stefanie (04:03):
Jennifer was Jen, as I call her.
She was a traveler, a worldtraveler.
She liked to live in adventure.
She had just got her MBA fromthe University of Edinburgh.
You never can say that, right?
When you're out there, you sayvery differently, but.
She, she truly lived life andthis was an opportunity for her
(04:25):
that she was doing it on herterms.
She had gone through a lot ofstuff.
My dad passed away in 2014 andthe same year she actually went
through a divorce and she wentthrough a lot and I, I remember
talking to her before she tookoff.
She's I'm finally doingsomething for
Dr. Dean (04:41):
Mm.
Stefanie (04:42):
And that's to be able to watch her do that through a
pandemic.
At that, she still made the mostof it.
And, she graduated and then was,had moved back to California and
was working and then got sick.
But she just lived, she lived,she had a, a puppy that was her
baby.
Mr.
(05:02):
Jiggles was along for thejourney.
He actually ended up going toScotland with her.
He passed away out there.
he was 14, 15 years old, so shehad him for, it was her partner,
her partner in crime.
Dr. Dean (05:13):
So what was it like, what was your relationship like
with her?
Stefanie (05:17):
We really grew close over the last, I would say 10
years.
We're only three years apart,but there was six kids in the
family growing up, and betweenher and I, we were the break
between the big kids and thelittle kids.
And so it was a lot of just thatsibling, just sibling fighting
and she was the kid that stolemy clothes and all of that.
(05:39):
But in our early twenties wemoved in together and started
creating that bond from theadult connection where it's
okay, let bygones be bygones.
Let's let the past go.
We were kids.
And I would say that was thebeginning of really that
connection.
And she left Utah and was nevergoing to return to Utah.
(06:01):
And so she would come back.
She was like the travelingAuntie and the favorite Auntie
of my kids.
They, loved having her here.
But we built that bond reallyover the last five to 10 years
you We were very different.
Our personalities were verydifferent.
But I think that's what workedfor us because she could keep me
grounded and she keeps me, keptme in like the realistics of
(06:22):
life.
I, I'm a dreamer and alwayschasing the dreams and she was
more of a real realistic realismperson, that, life kind of sucks
sometimes.
and I was always that let's justsprinkle love and light on it.
Let's make sure, we're justsmiling through the pain and.
it definitely changed a lot ofmy perspectives when I lost her
(06:44):
and, realized that there issadness and that there is
suffering, and if we just bypassthat and ignore it, it
definitely finds its way out.
Dr. Dean (06:54):
Yeah, for sure.
I can see that that's even hardfor you to say right now.
Mm-hmm.
Stefanie (07:01):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (07:02):
So your relationship changed over time, and it sounds
like you were pretty close whenshe passed.
Stefanie (07:08):
Yeah, she actually, she came here.
This was, is an important partof it is, so she graduated in
December of 2021 and in betweenjobs she moved in with us.
So she was here for about threemonths staying with us, the
beginning of 2022.
And it was, being able to lookback and be so grateful that we
(07:31):
had that time together and, the,what was going to be happening
that year, that reallysolidified our time and also
opened up like we drove her backto California.
My kids and I, and theconversation driving back was
really fascinating because wehad opened up more than we
talked in a long time, You know,you realize sometimes life just
(07:52):
becomes surface, right?
You're just all going, doingyour own thing.
And, we had, 12 hours in a car,just the two of us talking.
And, we were able to talk aboutmy dad's death, which we hadn't
done in eight years, and, I'mvery grateful for it, and I'm
grateful that my kids got tohave that time with her.
Dr. Dean (08:11):
Does she have children?
Stefanie (08:13):
she doesn't.
Her puppy.
Dr. Dean (08:16):
So what are you comfortable sharing about losing
Jen?
Stefanie (08:21):
June 23rd, we got a call that she was on her way to
the hospital.
She had been sick with Covid andI had talked to her a couple
weeks before and then just textmessage here and there, from
that time.
And she was very independent andshe definitely was my father's
child.
He didn't go to the hospitalwhen he was sick.
And ultimately, we lost, he hadcancer.
(08:43):
It was a very different, death.
But, so yeah, she went into thehospital, just was complaining
of some headaches and somebackaches, thinking it was still
related to Covid.
She had talked to, a telehealthand they just said you gotta
rest, drink lots of fluids.
And, unfortunately it wasn'tjust Covid.
She had picked up bacterialmeningitis, along the way.
(09:04):
She made it to the hospital,made it to the ER, was checking
herself in, and then, she gotthere between 12 and two.
And then went into a, a coma byseven and, unresponsive.
And, I was, I was here in Utah,just her best friend was with
her and we were listening orgetting in the updates, in real
time.
But I could already look backand say how just instantly went
(09:27):
into that fight or flight, Justthat trauma response of not
knowing what was going on andthinking, okay, she's intubated,
she's not gonna make it.
Cuz that's what you would hearfrom the Covid side, right?
somebody got intubated, theywere, not gonna make it.
So I'm like, they can't do that.
And they're like, no, we don'treally have a choice.
and so anyway, I was workingwith the doctors overnight as
they were doing emergencyprocedures to just ultimately
(09:50):
try and save her life.
And the emergency procedureshelped.
She was in her coma for fiveweeks and we were able to see
some responses from her, somemovements through the eyes and
arms.
And until you face a traumaticbrain injury, you don't really
know what, it's not reallysomething people talk
Dr. Dean (10:10):
Right?
Stefanie (10:11):
trauma in general, but also it just becomes this
waiting game of finding out whatthe damage was done to, the
brain and ultimately thecombination of all the infection
and everything is whatultimately took her.
Dr. Dean (10:25):
Mm-hmm.
So you went out to Californiathen?
Stefanie (10:30):
Yeah, yeah.
I was, I was able, thankfully,was able to be out there for the
first 10 days while she was inthe hospital.
Dr. Dean (10:36):
Yeah.
Stefanie (10:36):
Yeah, I'm a very spiritual person and I am one of
those people that, I, I live ina life of surrender.
I started that myself in 2021,where it's you know what?
I don't, I'm just gonna," Let,let go and let God" essentially
was my mantra, and I got laidoff in May of 2021.
Which was very fascinating andalso was not planned.
(10:58):
And so then to be able to godown there and I have, two
children, I'm married, I,thankfully had some family
support that was able to comeover and help while I went down
there and was able to be by herbedside the first, 10 days that
she was in the hospital.
I realize the privilege in thatand I'm also so very grateful
(11:20):
that we, me and her best friendwas also there and a lot of my
family came down and we wereable to tag team it the whole
time that she was in thehospital.
She very rarely, we missed a dayof having somebody in there
talking to her and, remindingher how much that she was loved.
And I'm just very grateful thatI was able to be there and watch
(11:41):
it and be very present in it.
and that it truly is where thesomatic work, supported me.
I took a class in the springjust for business.
I wanted to just get more intune with my body and bring
somatic work in my business.
And the last class was the weekthat she went into the hospital.
And to have that knowledge andthe awareness around being
(12:04):
present in my body to sit.
Her to sit with me and facingthat trauma and was like, I
don't know.
I'm glad to not know what itwould've been like without that,
Dr. Dean (12:17):
Mm-hmm.
Stefanie (12:18):
if that makes
Dr. Dean (12:19):
It does, and it's, it's fascinating when you have
that awareness of just how muchthe mind and the body are
connected.
That,
Stefanie (12:26):
Absolutely.
Dr. Dean (12:27):
Do you wanna say more about that?
Stefanie (12:29):
I would love to, because I come from, I'm not a
trained.
therapist or practitioner.
I'm a more on the coaching sideand the holistic coaching side.
So if when I share, I'm comingtruly from my own personal
bodily experience through this.
And for me, somatics allows meto be present with my body to
(12:51):
really witness the emotions thatwould come through.
And also when I was sitting withher, like feeling into her body,
she couldn't speak to us andcouldn't tell us.
You know what direction we weregoing.
She didn't have a healthdirective.
We had no clue from thelogistical side of what we
should be doing.
It was truly just trusting,trusting my body, trusting, my
(13:15):
family was involved in thedecision making, but I being
able to sit by her bedside andfeel.
What was going on with her andfeel what was going on with me.
That's, to me, was the somaticpiece that allowed me to be
present in that whole time thatI was there.
And I remember it just came upon my time hop.
I went to a coffee shop beforegoing to the hospital, and I
(13:38):
actually took time to enjoy thecoffee and I got some, they had
the most amazing avocado toasts,you know, Southern California
and.
I took the time, and just satwith it and had the, my coffee
and then the toast, and then Icalled my friend and I'm like, I
just wanna sit here.
I just wanna sit here.
And then the guilt came over oflike, I should be at the
(13:59):
hospital with her.
But the somatic piece is whatlet me sit with that guilt and
say, no, I deserve.
I'm a caretaker right now.
That's what I need right now.
And the nurses in her facilitywere amazing at letting us, or
reminding us that we arecaretaking and we have to keep
caretake for ourselves first.
But yeah, just processing thatguilt and then being able to go
(14:21):
to the hospital and be, okay,now I'm here.
This is where I'm at.
This is what we're here to do.
I, I don't know that I couldhave done that without that
awareness around.
I've done a lot of work on,shadow work and emotional
processing and all of that, butto physically feel it and to let
it move through, that's thepiece that was really big for me
(14:43):
because with my dad, he passedin 2014.
I just shoved it down.
We don't talk about it.
I don't like, I'm okay, and overtime I've ultimately, I've been
able to process it, but it was avery different experience of him
versus this loss of, no, I'mactually gonna feel it, because
feeling is healing to
Dr. Dean (15:02):
Mm-hmm.
Stefanie (15:03):
And if I can feel it, I can allow for more of, all the
emotions to come through.
Dr. Dean (15:08):
Have you continued that work into your grief?
Stefanie (15:13):
yes.
yes.
I've continued the work, so I,the, I follow holistic life
navigation is, the person that Ifollow on the somatic side, and
I'm now in a practitioner groupand we've been in calls of what
is your work?
And I have this strange like I'ma business coach and then I'm,
wanna support people in grief,which also includes supporting
(15:35):
me through the grief cuz there'sno timeline of healing.
There's no.
time that, let's just get overthis.
This is very, very present andI've realized how much grief is
present in my body.
in fact, I just saw a friendposted that, cliche thing about
your thoughts create yourreality.
And I'm like, oh, I used to bethat.
(15:57):
And I do think that there istruth in it.
I don't think it's all the truthbecause.
For me, my body shows me when mygrief is very, very present and
what my grief feels like.
And in the past it would've beenlike, if I don't think about the
sadness, if I can bypass it andplacate it or avoid it, if I can
(16:18):
just let it go right then I'mgonna create more, more things
to be grateful for.
All of that, that stuff.
And what the sematic piece hasshown me is that it will pop up
at very unexpected
Dr. Dean (16:30):
Mm-hmm.
Stefanie (16:31):
And I can't just suppress it and bypass it
because it changes like how Iinteract with my kids.
It changes how I interact withothers, changes how I interact
with my clients.
And so when it's very, verypresent in my body, I've, I get
to honor my body and I get tosee where my capacity is on a
day-to-day basis.
(16:52):
Instead of just that typicallike just push through
mentality.
Dr. Dean (16:57):
and I think that's so important to acknowledge and
something that's so difficult.
Especially, I think in oursociety to acknowledge that, any
emotions are affecting our bodyphysically.
But then grief is many emotions.
And I think what you're hintingat too is you can't really heal
from it.
We're living with it forever.
(17:19):
And so how, how do you learn tolive with it physically?
And I love that you're awarethat it's impacting your
children and your your familyand your work.
Stefanie (17:30):
Yeah.
And I, I think that's the piecethat's really interesting for
me.
Like I said, I wanted to sup, Isupport people in grief and then
I'm also in
Dr. Dean (17:39):
Mm-hmm.
Stefanie (17:40):
and, and you're doing the same thing.
It's like we we're creating thiscommunity and creating
connection to let people knowthat they're not alone in their
grief.
And sibling loss has a whole, I,I never really thought about
losing a sibling, right?
I have lost my father, and, thatis the natural timing, if there
is any of death.
(18:02):
But I, I really think it's superimportant that to honor that
peace in, especially for thoseof us that speak out about it,
right?
That we are going to havemoments where I don't have the
capacity to hold space for else,and it's my body that's gonna
show me that, and I can't denythat part.
Dr. Dean (18:22):
So what do you do with that when you start to realize
you're in a place where youcan't support other people?
Stefanie (18:28):
I'm very open, those that work with me understand
that part that there might be arescheduling or a time that we,
just, it's really fascinatingcuz it, it naturally comes out
that way.
I run a accountability group andwe meet weekly and last week we
all got on and there was justthis energy of I don't have this
(18:50):
capacity, but I personallydidn't speak out about it
because I was like, oh, I'm theone leading and it was really
interesting cuz electronicsweren't working right.
I couldn't get my computer towork.
It was just fascinating.
And one of my clients, she'slike, wait, are we supposed to
be doing something else?
And just that, that one pause ofwait a minute.
(19:11):
We, we said we were going to dothis, but what's going on?
So we all just took a minute ofjust okay, fill into our bodies,
what's going on?
And then we just opened up theconversation, just talk.
And I hadn't really thoughtabout it until you just asked
that question, but I am creatingan environment where each one of
us can honor our capacity.
(19:31):
And somebody might not be anactive grief that I'm working
with, but they know where I'mcoming from and that's why I
intertwine grief, Like I said,it's this weird combination of
here I want to intuitively coachin business and oh, I'm gonna
post about being sad oversomething and, thinking about
Jen, but I, I will attractpeople and I've set the
(19:53):
intention that people that arein my space will know this part
about me.
And as I grow and as I continueto move it, like you said, the
grief is with me.
And that has been a hugeacceptance.
And I talk about that all thetime, that cuz I've had many
people, well don't you justlike, why can't you be present
(20:15):
here?
I'm like, oh, I'm 100%
Dr. Dean (20:16):
Mm-hmm.
Stefanie (20:17):
I went for a walk with a friend and he was sharing his
experience of losing his bestfriend and he's like, you know
what I do is just, I'm here now.
And I'm oh yeah, I'm 100% herenow too.
That doesn't dismiss that a partof me and it moves in my body
that a part of me is longing forher.
Wishing that she can come onthis hike with us doesn't mean
(20:40):
that I'm not present.
It just means that I'm feelingit.
I went off on a little weird
Dr. Dean (20:45):
No, I think it's a
Stefanie (20:46):
through.
Dr. Dean (20:46):
tangent and I, I love how the, you're, you're bringing
grief alongside you, andsometimes that works.
And sometimes that's all right.
We're gotta take a break here.
yeah.
Stefanie (20:58):
Yeah, and I have a podcast.
It's been stagnant cuz it'scalled Moving Grief and I don't
know where to move with it.
It's been really interestingbecause, it came through in,
intuitively, it was definitelymeant to be birthed, to come
out.
And I was sharing stories ofgrief like you do, of bringing
people on and.
(21:20):
Over the last couple weeks.
I'm like, I don't, I don't knowwhat it is cuz I don't, I don't
know where I'm moving with mygrief right now, And so I'm
giving myself permission that Idon't have to know.
And I've received feedback thatthey've loved the episodes and
sometimes they're the mostrandom pieces cuz that's what
grief
Dr. Dean (21:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
Stefanie (21:39):
it's so random.
Dr. Dean (21:41):
Yeah, for sure.
You don't know what to expect orhow it's gonna show up sometimes
and it's adjusting to that.
Yeah.
Stefanie (21:48):
Yeah,
Dr. Dean (21:49):
It sounds like you find a lot of support
professionally.
Would you say that personallyyou've also had a lot of
support?
Stefanie (21:58):
Yeah.
I definitely have, a beautifulnetwork.
My family, like Jen and I, weredefinitely the closest in the
siblings.
I've learned to have compassionfor others that are grieving
her.
And, sometimes it feels like I'min this own, my own little
world, right?
Because I, I have myrelationship with her and then
so-and-so has a relationship andI feel a lot of times,
(22:21):
especially in family units, it'soh, you should be feeling this
way.
And.
it's been really interesting tojust kinda let it go and be
like, I can't, there, there'snot a right way to do any of
this.
And I think that's why I am socalled to share from my
experience, cuz this is myexperience of handling it.
Somebody could resonate with meand, and not resonate with what
(22:41):
I'm sharing.
But, through my family, we've,we've definitely become closer.
We, were communicating a lotwhile she was in the hospital
and afterwards, cuz we are very,I'd say a pretty disconnected
family, like we're on, on ourown little islands.
and so losing her brought ustogether.
that's like my extended my, mysibling family.
(23:03):
And then my, my little group, myhusband and my kids like, We
definitely, COVID really got uscentered into each other, so
there's another okay thankfulfor the timing of things.
Because, we've spent the lastthree years really grounding
into what our foundation is as afamily.
and then definitely the, thefriend network and that I picked
(23:26):
up some beautiful friends thatwere Jen's and, spending the
time in the hospital with herbest friend.
We now.
are connected for life.
And, so yes, 100%.
I, I feel supported.
And I, it's interesting cuzsometimes, even as I'm talking,
sometimes I feel like I need todo it alone.
(23:48):
And I, I don't know if that'smiddle child syndrome, like I
gotta be the, the strong one.
I don't know, there's justsomething it's just bringing up
something as you were talkingright now of I have such amazing
support and I also still attimes don't reach out for that
support, especially when it'sthe heaviest times.
Dr. Dean (24:06):
Is it that you feel you need to do it alone or that
you want to do it alone?
Stefanie (24:11):
ooh, I think it more is along the the, I want to do
it alone.
Dr. Dean (24:16):
And I think let's normalize that.
That's okay that you can grievewith people, but it's so
personal.
It's a very personal experiencethat sometimes you don't want
that noise.
You wanna be able to workthrough it.
Stefanie (24:31):
Yeah.
Thank you for that.
Dr. Dean (24:32):
Mm-hmm.
You're welcome.
It's been true for me as well,but also people that I work
with, I've seen that.
Stefanie (24:40):
Why do you think that is?
Dr. Dean (24:42):
There were times that you had a relationship with your
sister that those moments wherenobody else had them, and I
think there's this sense of howcould you not need time to work
through that?
When that relationship is sounique and to you and her Also,
(25:02):
for me, I think personally it'sbeen, there's some people that
just don't understand what myrelationship was like with my
brother.
Cause it it, waxed and wanedover time or ages and phases
and, but there was a, a solidthread through that that people
may or may not have seendepending on when they met us.
(25:23):
And so I don't wanna beinvalidated, and sometimes I
just need to validate myself andthe way that I need to.
So I don't know if that's truefor you as well
Stefanie (25:33):
Yeah, that does resonate.
I was, I'm just, I was talkingto my daughter today about
siblings cuz they got in anargument.
My, my son and daughter got inan argument
Dr. Dean (25:42):
as
Stefanie (25:42):
she's like, mom, did you guys.
Yeah, I know.
And she says, did you guys fightwhen you were kids?
I'm like, yes, all of the time.
And so we were just talkingthrough that and I said, there's
something about your sibling.
You don't choose them.
Right?
Like you would a friend andthey're with you for life,
whether you know you, I knowsiblings can separate and like
(26:06):
you said, it, it can, and gothrough its natural ebb and
flow.
But I, there's like this innatebond and I also said I sometimes
the people that you love themost are the ones that drive you
the most nuts.
Right?
And Jen and I's relationship wasunique and I catch myself not
giving myself that permission toreally celebrate the uniqueness
(26:29):
because I know I wasn't her onlyclose person and she's not my
only close person.
So I love that you brought thatin because that is, it gives me
permission to really celebratethat thread that we had.
And I, I've said it before on mysocial media and to friends,
that parts of me died with her,and it's not something you can
(26:53):
plan for.
And also, I'm still figuring outwhat to do with that.
Dr. Dean (26:59):
Yeah.
and you're still very early inthe grief.
We both are like, a year is notthat.
When is the anniversary?
It's coming up, right?
Stefanie (27:09):
July 30th.
Yeah.
I feel that, she chose to go.
that's actually something I not,I don't talk publicly about, but
I do want to begin sharing that.
Because I, I remember when we,when I first got to the hospital
and seeing her in the state thatshe was.
So five weeks of yes, littleresponses, but ultimately in a
(27:32):
coma for that five weeks.
And I remember going into herroom and sitting with her after
the initial shock of it all andjust saying, SIS, you get to
choose this.
You have a team of doctors thatknow what they're doing from the
medical standpoint.
She was in an amazing hospitalwith great care.
Like state of the art, literallyno stones were not turned.
(27:53):
Like she, she truly had the bestcare.
And ultimately, I said, just youmake the choice because I don't
know if I'm strong enough tomake that choice for you.
And ultimately she did, like herdifferent organs started
shutting down.
I remember I saw her on a videocause I had come back home.
(28:14):
So I went back and forth in thefive weeks and we, we were able
to FaceTime while she was in thehospital.
And, just seeing her, I'm like,Ooh, something's different.
Something she's more restful.
She looked very peaceful, but itwas more restful.
And then it was July 22nd.
there was just so many.
I'm really big into signs andsynchronicities and, and there
(28:36):
was, a random guy that my friendand I ran into that his, his.
TikTok account was primal and hehad a shirt on that I didn't
even notice until a few weeksago if my sister-in-law pointed
out it says, something about,let the music, come out, just
these interesting signs.
And I came home that day afterbeing out and seeing her on the
camera and wondering if, and wehad also been told by the
(28:59):
doctors that they were startingto, not see the same eye
movements and the signs from herpupils.
And I was in the shower and Ijust said, Jen, just show me
where you're at.
Show me give me something tojust understand where you are.
And I saw a field of yellowflowers and her face and she
said, I'm happy.
(29:20):
That's all that was said.
And it gave me the peace.
And then also just this oh no,this might be the time.
And I went outside and wassitting on the deck.
And within 30 minutes her bestfriend texted me and she was
showing me a picture of a tattoothat she wanted, that Jen wanted
to get.
She wanted to get a bouquet offlowers of all the people that
were close to her.
(29:40):
And and I said, oh, that'sreally interesting.
I just had this vision of her inthese yellow flowers.
And she goes, oh, like this.
And she sent me a picture thatthey had taken years ago of Jen
in these yellow
Dr. Dean (29:51):
Oh wow.
Stefanie (29:52):
And it was like, I get chills even talking about it
now.
And I was like, she really ishappy.
And you know that yes, the grieflives within me and I feel the
sadness of the loss of her.
And then there's also this partof me that knows that she chose
and that she is happy.
Like I, I don't know what'sgonna happen after we all die,
(30:14):
but I.
I believe in my heart that wedon't physically die, it's just
the next phase.
but just to have thoseconfirmation and even like a
Dove, one single dove, it wasabout a teenager, she was a
smaller bird, came up on herfence and my husband was able to
almost touch the dove.
And I was like, she was lettingus know, like it just, yeah.
Dr. Dean (30:36):
What a beautiful connection and story.
it's more than a story, right?
there was definitely, I don'teven know what you call that,
but thank you for sharing.
Stefanie (30:45):
Yeah,
Dr. Dean (30:46):
Yeah.
Stefanie (30:47):
I have lots of them.
And one day I'm writing a book.
It's no words were spoken yet.
So much was said.
And it, it's yet to be writtenbecause I'm still processing and
like you said, it's only been ayear.
So I'm like, okay, I want likereally the correct message to be
Dr. Dean (31:03):
Yeah.
Stefanie (31:04):
because when you watch somebody transition out of this
world, for me, there was a lotof peace around it.
And then there's, there's alsothis, the part of the heaviness
and the sadness and so toliterally, it's this, this
juggling ball, I'm like, thisjuggling match my head of I know
(31:24):
she's okay and yet dammit, I'mhere without her like, Yes.
Dr. Dean (31:29):
In that moment, you are not okay.
Even though you know she is.
She is.
Yeah.
So were you there when shepassed?
Stefanie (31:38):
Yeah.
When we went back down, my momwent down and, my best friend
came as well.
You could tell.
You could tell.
and like I said, I, I said, justmake sure that we all know,
right?
Don't leave us questioning ifwe're making, any the health
decisions on her behalf.
And, one of the nurses that weworked with at the end, Peggy,
(32:00):
I'll never forget Peggy, becauseshe was just as real as they
come, as real as they come, andshe was just, she's look at your
sister.
She's, she's gonna be okay.
And she's also not okay in thisform, cuz when you're dealing
with the coma, right?
There's the thought of are theygonna be a paraplegic?
What is the, the outcome thatcan come from a brain injury and
(32:25):
so it could be this gamut ofpossibilities.
I know for her, and I love thatyou asked about the Jen before
she passed away, was theadventure Anything short of her
being able to travel and liveindependently was the Jen.
Peggy reminded us that, you knowwhat, sometimes life just sucks
and there's no answers and youpick up the pieces and you keep
(32:47):
moving.
It's not moving on.
Cuz I've definitely been throughthat.
It's just moving with it.
You pick up the pieces and youjust move.
Dr. Dean (32:53):
Yeah.
And I think that's also aconscious choice, right?
Like you could stay stuck, butit's not really a choice that we
have.
and moving on isn't, that seemsdismissive.
So I, I do think, I like how yousaid it, just moving.
Stefanie (33:09):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (33:10):
Has your relationship with your siblings, you said
you're closer now.
How about with your mom?
You hadn't mentioned her untiljust a few minutes ago, and feel
free to not answer any question.
Stefanie (33:22):
Yeah, no.
it goes back to what you weresaying, you ha grieving can be
an individual thing and let'snormalize that conversation
because my mom lost a daughterand the old version of Stefanie
would be like, okay Mom, whatdoes Mom need?
Because Mom got the biggestpain, right?
The biggest heartache.
(33:43):
Mom's surviving and she'sworking through, we are closer.
We are, I think, death, for usdeath reminded us how close it
can be, right?
And how unexpected any, any oneof us can go.
She's more of the Grandma thatstays on the sidelines, Grandma.
And I've seen her come around alot more and I've seen her
(34:06):
wanting to be involved and Idon't know if it's from the
perspective of she's 78 and herhealth isn't the best.
And so I'll just speak formyself.
I, I feel like.
Her coming more around is that,I'm sorry and I want to make the
most of what we have and there'sstill parts of me that I know I
(34:29):
can be better.
But then, so there's the partslike, I'm hurting too, and I
can, I can be okay with that.
Dr. Dean (34:38):
Yeah.
Stefanie (34:40):
I definitely took on a lot of the mother type duties
while Jen was in her coma.
But I didn't really give anybodya choice, and I'm gonna own that
because I, that was, that waswhere I needed to be.
And I, it was like no questionsasked.
I just get to be here.
I'm doing it right.
(35:00):
And, was some things thathappened at the very beginning,
which I won't share publicly,but there was some stuff that
happened that changed the waythat my role.
But then I also look, I'm like,I don't know that I would've
done it differently because I amthe take charge.
I was the kid that took chargeof all of the siblings, like
being the one that rallied usall together to, I remember when
(35:24):
I was probably like 10 yearsold, my little brother was in
the hospital and maybe eveneight.
Rallied us all together and wewalked to the hospital while my
mom was there.
I was always that kid.
And we've had a beautifulconversation where she thanked
me for being there.
And, I don't know that she, Idon't know that she would've
made some of the same decisions,in honor of Jen.
(35:47):
It would've been maybe more ofwhat she wanted, and she
acknowledges that.
Dr. Dean (35:53):
Yeah.
it sounds like you've been anentrepreneur since you were a
little kid, so it makes sensethat you would take charge in
difficult decisions.
Stefanie (36:03):
Yes.
And I, my uncle passed away, acouple years ago and I was able
to be there during that as well.
And I know that there's a partof my work here is not only in
grief, but also in the support
Dr. Dean (36:19):
Mm-hmm.
Stefanie (36:20):
because I do feel like there's a lot of forgiveness and
there's a lot of surrender andletting go that can happen
around death.
I don't know where that's gonnalead for me, and I'm just
allowing the path to unfold.
I've looked at going back toschool, I'm like, oh, do I wanna
do that?
But it's more of it's more fromthe spiritual side of it that I,
I have witnessed it now a coupletimes, and, I feel like we can,
(36:46):
as a society, we can do betteraround death.
Dr. Dean (36:50):
Yeah, for sure.
Stefanie (36:52):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (36:53):
May I ask if the Uncle you lost, was that your Mom's
brother?
Stefanie (36:58):
Yes.
Dr. Dean (36:59):
So it's interesting, were you able to connect with
her on sibling loss at all?
Stefanie (37:05):
It's the first time I've ever put those two
together.
It's really interesting.
No, not yet.
Dr. Dean (37:11):
I'm just thinking from my experience that has actually
actually forged the relationshipwith my dad closer, cause we
both can relate on that.
So I'll be interested to followup with you on that at some
point to see what happens.
Stefanie (37:25):
I definitely am going to, Yes.
Talk to her about that.
Strange.
That has never even crossed my
Dr. Dean (37:32):
Mm-hmm.
it's also, you said earlier, wedon't think about losing
siblings and you have, fivesiblings, right?
Stefanie (37:42):
There's six of us total.
Dr. Dean (37:43):
Yeah.
So it's out of order, right?
Like we're
Stefanie (37:48):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (37:49):
not at the age where that normally happens yet.
and that's hard to think about.
Stefanie (37:54):
And she's one the baby, not the baby baby.
I have a younger brother, butshe's our baby,
Dr. Dean (38:00):
Yeah.
Stefanie (38:01):
And like I said, there was that gap when we were
growing up of the big kids andthe little kids.
And her and my, my youngestbrother were the little ones,
and so she's not supposed to go.
Dr. Dean (38:12):
Yeah, that's hard.
I would love to connect with youon this journey that you're on
and figuring out how you cansupport people in, in grief and
death and loss.
So we should chat sometime otherthan this podcast.
Stefanie (38:27):
I would love that It's so interesting cuz I've always
connected with your work.
I love the idea of the pack.
that's such an interesting, I'mvery big into animals and, I
said I, I love signs andsynchronicities.
Animals are one of those thatplay out and.
The pack.
There's just something there of,now there's been this piece
(38:49):
removed from the pack, And Idon't know, there's something
yes,
Dr. Dean (38:56):
So I, I've shared this before on the podcast, and it's
on the website too.
But the reason for that is mybrother loved wolfs.
And wolves grieve their siblingmates when they pass or, or
lost.
It's actually pretty fascinatingto read some of those stories,
yeah.
Are there other things you wishpeople knew about grief or loss
(39:16):
or sibling loss in particularthat you wish you had known a
year ago?
Stefanie (39:21):
I think the thing that's coming is you cannot
prepare for it.
And the relatability comes afterit happens.
That's where when that post wentviral, it was a lot of people
connecting on, oh, I lost mysister.
And there was also her puppythat was in it.
That was Where's the puppy?
Like People cared about wherethe dog was.
So it's an interesting questionof what do I wish people would
(39:42):
know is I hope you never have to
Dr. Dean (39:43):
Mm.
Stefanie (39:45):
And when you do know that you're not alone.
It's not something you can everplan for.
And there's, there's no rightway to figure it out either.
She's not the first person Ilost, and that's why it's been
interesting, like, why now talkabout this?
My dad will come through everyonce in a while.
(40:06):
I've, I've really, I'm at peacewith my dad.
I don't know if I can be atpeace with her being gone.
I don't know that that'spossible, but you can't ever
plan to know what this feelslike.
I guess also what comes withthat too is I wish more people
(40:27):
would really think about whatthey say to somebody in grief
somebody, especially at thefirst aftermath We're so
uncomfortable with it that wejust put these placated
statements out there and withoutany thought.
And I don't think people are,they mean Ill intent by'em.
We just don't think about it.
Multiple people say, I can'timagine losing my sister.
(40:50):
Well, don't freaking imagine it.
Cause
Dr. Dean (40:53):
Cuz we couldn't have either.
Stefanie (40:55):
Exactly.
And I can't imagine not havingher now here now, and that's, I
think that was the beginning ofme speaking out about my grief
is because I was gettingfrustrated and, that, let me
know if you need anything.
Stop saying that period.
if I could give anybody advice,stop saying that cuz somebody
that's in grief doesn't knowwhat they want.
And if they do figure out whatthey want, it will be hard for
(41:17):
them to
Dr. Dean (41:17):
Exactly.
Yeah.
Stefanie (41:18):
And are you also gonna be willing to do anything Cuz
anything is a
Dr. Dean (41:23):
Right,
Stefanie (41:24):
But that was what I began speaking out because I was
like, what is this?
people they not, they don'tthink about what.
Dr. Dean (41:30):
Yes, for sure.
Stefanie (41:33):
So maybe just think about it and then also there
will come a time where otherswill move on from your
Dr. Dean (41:40):
Mm-hmm.
Stefanie (41:41):
I feel like I'm getting at that point now.
I think that there will, I'll behaving that anniversary coming
up, but I definitely have beenfeeling that people will move on
with life.
So find the few people that youreally can connect and reach out
to just saying, I don't knowwhy, but I'm just feeling this.
(42:01):
And then if you want to be thatfriend and, and really, I had a,
a person on my podcast thatshared this advice and I loved
it.
She said she put the death datein her calendar of like anytime
anybody would die, that wasclose to her.
And she goes, I put it in thecalendar and then I forget about
it cuz they weren't close to me,but I'm close to the person that
lost'em.
And so then on the anniversaryshe reaches out and I'm like,
(42:25):
that's huge.
Dr. Dean (42:27):
Yeah, that is huge.
Yeah.
Stefanie (42:28):
I have, somebody in my life that has done that with my
dad every single year withoutfail.
I think more check-ins, like ifI can invite people to do more
check-ins, I don't know why it'ssuch a hard thing to talk about
and we all go through it.
We're all gonna experience lossand death in some form, but
(42:48):
we're also awkward around it.
I'm generalizing.
Dr. Dean (42:52):
No, I think, I think cuz I'm, I'm pretty involved in
this work elsewhere, not just inmy personal life and, for fun, I
was just reading the history ofDeath and Dying this past
weekend.
And that has changed the historybehind that is actually rather
fascinating about how theindustrial age had a lot to do
(43:14):
with our changing beliefs andapproaches to and attitudes
around death.
But, it wasn't always this way,when people died in the home
and.
Wakes were like traditional inthe house, and there was a lot
more comfort and care andsupport in talking about that
(43:34):
than happens now.
Stefanie (43:37):
Makes
Dr. Dean (43:37):
and then that's also a cultural general statement
that's not true everywhere.
Like in our family, everyonetalks about death.
That's just fact.
My husband.
But one point I was like, oh,you guys all that, that's all
you talk about.
It's not all we talk about.
Yeah.
Stefanie (43:55):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (43:57):
Thank you for sharing that.
I was wondering if you wanted toshare some favorite stories of
you and Jen.
Stefanie (44:03):
Oh.
I think for me definitely alwaysthe things that stand out is our
traveling together.
We had an annual girls trip andthat we were in Chicago and she
wanted to karaoke so bad.
She wanted to karaoke so bad,and the group, that wasn't like
the consensus of what activitythey wanted to do, and she was
(44:25):
just such a dis pissed and likemoping around.
And then we finally, we didn'tend up karaoking, but we found
somewhere and she just had this,you know what, screw it up type
attitude.
I'm gonna just make the most ofit.
And that was her common thing.
Once she finally put her heartand mind to it, she had a blast
(44:47):
anywhere she went.
No matter if it's the mostpathetic crowd or we ended up in
a place where there was, I meanby this time we were in probably
early thirties, I guess she'sthree years younger, but a bunch
of 21 year olds.
Not our crowd of demographics,right?
And just made the most of it.
But then she also didn't takecrap from people.
(45:08):
She was the type, we would besomewhere and she was always the
single one.
in, in the group when we'd go onthese trips and, these guys
would come up and hit on her andshe's are you really talking to
me?
And she would blatantly saythat, and you, we could see it
in her face, and they wouldn'tbe like, come save me.
She could handle herself.
that, that friend, she couldhandle herself.
There was this one time whenthis guy actually even came to
(45:29):
her celebration of life.
We were, at a friend of mine'shouse and Jen had come with us
and this guy came up and he'slike, oh, I know you.
She's like, no, you don't.
He's no, I do.
Jennifer Eberhardt.
And she's yeah.
She's we went to high schooltogether, and she's like, Oh, oh
yeah, I think I was too cool foryou back then.
(45:51):
And so then he came likeafterwards and he came to her
celebration of life and nowwe're Facebook friends.
Cuz he is like, yeah, yoursister was too cool for me, but
she had no problem saying it,lots of adventures.
She was always up for going theadventures when she would stay
with the kids.
One of my last favorite memoriesof her, she came out in the
summer 2021, and we went andfloated the river and she was
(46:16):
very cautious during the covidtimes that my family was too.
So it was, a little bit like,it's can we get out?
And I live in Utah, which is avery conservative state and not
as many precautions here.
And I remember earlier she'slike, okay, the, the river's the
safest place that we can be incuz we can be in our own little
bubble just going down theriver.
We had an amazing time.
(46:37):
We had a little cooler that camewith us and yeah, I share those
videos quite often.
Cuz that's the last real justfond, fond memory of us just
being fully present and justhaving a great time.
We shared a lot of bingewatching silly shows, me falling
asleep.
I loved seeing her when she wasin Scotland.
I feel like that was a time shereally was able to come alive.
(46:59):
She went out with the intention.
She didn't know anybody, so shewas going out alone and she
loved Scotland.
She loved not having to drive acar.
She was in California for mostof her adult life, so you can
imagine the complete opposite ofCalifornia LA traffic.
And then she goes out to,Scotland, the UK and, but she
(47:20):
was, she became this littleleader, mom type person in the
group doing the party planning.
She was an excellent partyplanner, excellent party
planner.
That girl could throw somethingtogether and she never could
just do it simple like costumes.
And, she sewed a lot, so she'dmake things for friends and
(47:40):
they'd, do themed parties andstuff.
Yeah, just I was able to go outfor her graduation.
And just seeing her in thatspace where she really, it was
like one of a year and a half ofher life that she just didn't
have responsibilities except forgetting her MBA.
And so she was able to reallyjust live it and enjoy it.
(48:01):
Oh I could probably go on andon.
Dr. Dean (48:04):
Thank you.
Do you have ways that you planto spend the anniversary?
Stefanie (48:09):
No, I have realized I've let go of expectations.
In fact, I was giving thatadvice to one of my clients,
because she was gonna be goingback and traveling and like that
they're stomping grounds.
And I realized her birthday wasMay 20th and we had done, went
to a ice cream place here and itwas a beautiful day and also it
(48:32):
it didn't meet expectations andit also did So it's that I've
learned to really let go ofexpecting what it's going to be
like that day.
It's strange cuz it's only a fewweeks away, but from now until
that time there was a lot ofhighs and lows.
My body's holding onto a lot ofthat, that I don't, I don't know
(48:53):
right now that I have thecapacity to really think ahead
of what that day is gonna
Dr. Dean (48:57):
Right.
So actually you have a lot ofanniversaries between now and
then.
Stefanie (49:02):
Yeah.
Yeah, a lot.
And it started a few weeks ago.
This just was a time of,unexpected it last year.
It feels like a freakinglifetime ago, and yet it was
only a year ago.
So I think what's on my agendais to just be present each day
(49:23):
and, allow the moments, talkthrough the moments and we'll
see.
Dr. Dean (49:33):
Sounds like a good plan, to take it as you need it.
Thank you so much.
I really enjoyed talking to you.
Stefanie (49:43):
Oh, thank you.
Me too.
Dr. Dean (49:46):
Thank you so much for listening.
Our theme song was written byJoe Mylwood and Brian Dean, and
was performed by Joe Mylwood.
If you would like moreinformation on the Broken Pack,
go to our website, the brokenpack.com.
Be sure to sign up for ournewsletter, Wild Grief, to learn
about opportunities and receiveexclusive information and
grieving tips for subscribers.
(50:06):
Information on that, our socialmedia and on our guests can be
found in the show notes whereveryou get your podcasts.
Please follow, subscribe, andshare.
Thanks again.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.