April 24, 2024 • 48 mins
This episode of The Broken Pack™: Stories of Adult Sibling Loss explores the enduring impact of sibling loss with guest Dawn Rodgers. Together, Dawn and Dr. Dean delve into Dawn's experience decades after losing her brother, offering support and strategies for navigating this complex and persistent grief.
Dawn Rodgers is a surviving sibling who found solace in photography after the loss of her brother. Her book,a photo essay, "Sorrow" acts as a powerful testament to the transformative nature of art in processing grief, honoring her brother's memory while guiding her through her unique experience of loss. This conversation sheds light on the often overlooked nature of sibling loss and offers hope for those navigating their grief journey.
Content Warning: This episode contains discussions of murder and violence, including: death of a sibling , grief and trauma related to a sibling's death by murder, the impact of violence on families, and the emotional and psychological challenges of coping with a sibling's murder
Key Discussion Points:
-The overlooked nature of sibling loss and its isolating effect on surviving siblings
-The importance of finding outlets for grief, such as artistic expression
-Creating a support system through therapy, support groups, or connections with those who understand
-The enduring nature and persistence of sibling grief: Dawn's story highlights that the pain of losing a sibling can persist even decades later
-Honoring a sibling's legacy and finding meaning after loss regardless of the time since the loss helped Dawn reconnect with her brother and her own grief
About our guest:
Purchase Dawn's photographic essay "Sorrow" and learn more about her and her work on her website: https://www.dawnrodgers.co.uk/
If you would like more information or to share your own adult sibling loss story, please contact me, Dr. Angela Dean, at contact@thebrokenpack.com or go to our website, thebrokenpack.com.
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Thank you!
Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT
Credits:
The Broken Pack™ Podcast is produced by 27 Elephants Media
"If Tomorrow Starts Without Me" © ℗ 2023, 2024
Written by Joe Mylward and Brian Dean
Performed by Fuji Sounds (feat. MYLWD.)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Dean (00:12):
Hello and welcome to The Broken Pack™, a podcast
focused on giving adultsurvivors of sibling loss a
platform to share their storiesand to be heard.
Something that many sibling losssurvivors state that they never
have had.
Sibling Loss, is Misunderstood™.
The Broken Pack™exists to changethat and to support survivors.
(00:32):
I'm your host, Dr.
Angela Dean.
Listen to this episode to hearDawn's sibling loss story about
losing Geoff, who was murdered30 years ago.
in this episode, we discuss herdelayed grief and the difficulty
that she had with speaking abouther brother.
We also explore how herdifficulty in processing her
loss for three decades hasmanifested into visual
(00:56):
processing of her grief in hernow published book called
Sorrow.
We also discuss where she is nowwith her grief and advice she
has for those of us who are muchearlier on in our sibling loss
journey.
Take a listen.
(01:20):
Content warning.
This episode includesdiscussions of sibling loss
through murder.
Listener discretion is advised.
All right.
So welcome to the show.
I'm wondering how you wanted tointroduce yourself to our
listeners.
Dawn Rodgers (01:33):
Most obvious way is to say that, I'm a teacher.
So I teach people photography,but I'm also a photographer and
those are my two kind of greatpassions in life is teaching
photography and actually doingit.
That just sums it up reallyquickly about what I do.
Dr. Dean (01:51):
What would you like us to know about Geoff before we
talk about losing him?
Dawn Rodgers (01:55):
My brother was quite a shy and quite reserved
person.
That's how I always saw him.
It's very very quiet and, and asthoughtful I think what I would
like to say about him.
But we were very close,, when wewere very young.
and I miss that closeness.
But it was fun to be around.
We both had a passion forsci-fi, and regularly visited
the cinema together, to go watchvarious things.
(02:18):
when we were young, we spent agreat deal of time together and.
I'm sure it'll come out in theconversation, but, it was partly
to do with, the fact that myfather was in the military.
So we moved around a lot.
So we generally tended to bequite close to each other for
that reason.
Dr. Dean (02:33):
Mm Hmm I've heard that from a lot of people that moving
around because the stability offriends changes so much that you
hang on to your siblings in adifferent way.,
Dawn Rodgers (02:42):
Yeah, definitely.
Dr. Dean (02:44):
What was the age difference like?
Dawn Rodgers (02:46):
It was 18 months.
So again, I think that played apart in the sort of closeness
that we had.
was that in age we were veryclose, but I very much took on
the role of the older sibling,looking after my brother,
although I can't remember doingthis, she tells me this a lot,
was at one point in primaryschool when we moved to a new
school and he just wouldn'tspeak to anybody because he was
(03:07):
very shy.
And, so they had to come andcollect me to come and speak to
him and for him, at thatparticular point.
But obviously as people grow, asthey change, but yeah, so very
much I was in a kind of caringrole for my brother.
Dr. Dean (03:21):
mmhmm So it sounds like your relationship was
pretty close as kids.
Did that change over time?
Dawn Rodgers (03:28):
No, I don't think So.
I think just circumstances,meant that it changed.
I left home at a quite a youngage and went off to pursue my
life and my career and wantingto be an artist.
It was my kind of focus.
So I moved and moved away fromour hometown, in my 20s, but I'd
left home by the time I was 17and went on to be self
(03:50):
sufficient.
I was quite an independentperson.
So we did stay in touch.
but I think, this is going backsort of 30 in touch was very
different from now where, youcan be in daily connection with
someone across the world.
But at that point, it wasn't.
So when I would go home, wewould see each other and
socialize together.
(04:11):
and it was funny the other day,I was just talking to another
sibling who had lost theirbrother.
And I don't know, it justoccurred to me, I don't have
photographs of us, the two of ustogether as adults.
and that was slightlymelancholic to realize that.
Dr. Dean (04:25):
Mmhmm.
Yeah it’s interesting to thinkabout that one because
photography and photographs areso important to you and also
yeah we didn't have a lot ofways of communicating back then
in the same way that we do now.
Like this conversation we werehaving probably wouldn't have
happened.
Dawn Rodgers (04:42):
No.
Dr. Dean (04:43):
You would have, I would have never known about you
or connected.
Dawn Rodgers (04:46):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (04:47):
Thank you for that perspective.
What would you like to shareabout losing Geoff?
Dawn Rodgers (04:50):
Because of doing the book and doing this project,
I've spoken to so many peopleabout their experiences.
I think the biggest thing for meis just not having that kind of
person there, that person thatsort of shares your past, that
remembers, the sort of in jokesthat you had; that remembers the
Christmases and all those sortof events growing up and the
(05:14):
time you spent together, likejust talking to you now, I'm
remembering when my brother andI decided to set up a shop at
home and, handcrafted things tosell to the neighbours, and it's
those little things that, Whenyou are with your family and
when you're with your siblings,they remember that, but they
also remember your perspectiveand your viewpoint on it.
(05:35):
Whereas your parents, theirperspective and everything is
completely different.
it's from that parentalperspective.
So you know the person that whenyou say, oh, that was so unfair,
whatever, that person thatwould, so that would say, yeah,
that's right.
That was really unfair, isn'tthere anymore.
And that's really, it's reallysad, but it's also, I think.
the future as well.
(05:57):
They like the future is takenaway.
So as we move on and grow older,your sibling is normally with
you and they're the ones thatremember the past with you.
And eventually obviously, whenmy parents aren't here anymore,
there will be no one that willreally remember the past in the
same way that he did.
And that connection and thatfamily bond, I think, just isn't
there, that won't be thereanymore.
(06:18):
I find that really sad as well.
I find that really hard.
And then the whole circumstancesaround losing him were not easy,
as well.
So it's all of those things.
It's all a bit messy, I think,in some ways.
ways
Dr. Dean (06:34):
mmhmm for sure.
I've been thinking about that alot lately too, It sounds like
you don't have other siblingseither.
Dawn Rodgers (06:40):
No, it's just me now.
Dr. Dean (06:42):
Yeah, so being the last one standing, if you will,
in your family of origin, that'sa difficult thing.
I'm sure difficult if you havesiblings too.
Dawn Rodgers (06:50):
I just think when, it's part of the natural order
when, eventually you lose yourparents and it's that person
there that would remember themwith you and will remember that
childhood that you had togetherand, suddenly that's not there.
And then, like I said, thefuture isn't there either.
the perspective.
prospect maybe of, he mightnever have married, but he also
might have.
(07:10):
And, had children and all ofthose things, nieces and nephews
aren't.
I don't know.
These are things that reallyoccurred to me in the very
early, early days.
They're not things that I thinkabout very much now.
Your question has prompted me tothink about that, but.
not very much now, but there'sstill a sort of sadness that
those, that future isn't there.
(07:32):
I think that's the biggestthing.
Dr. Dean (07:35):
Yeah.
How old was he when he died?
Dawn Rodgers (07:37):
But he was so young.
It was in 93.
So I think he literally just hadhis birthday.
He might've just turned 23 then.
Yeah.
So very young.
that was some of the things likewhen I've been creating my
artwork is, it's that loss ofpotential, that future
potential, that I thought abouta lot, all these kind of
experiences and things that havehappened in the world and all
(07:58):
this, like just talking aboutthe technological changes, which
I think he'd have found sointeresting.
He hasn't witnessed any of thator experienced any of that and
might have been part of that.
You don't know what a person'sfuture potential is.
And It's just incredibly sad tohave someone so young, no longer
there.
Dr. Dean (08:18):
Yeah.
So you've been carrying thisgrief and this loss of him for a
very long time.
Dawn Rodgers (08:23):
Yes.
Yeah.
last year was like 30 years,since he'd, passed away.
And like I said, in the earlypart of that, when I've spoken
to a lot of siblings, like laternow, cause it's obviously I
connect with these people.
there just wasn't that therewasn't any support there wasn't
anything there and it felt likein the beginning like you didn't
(08:47):
count and your grief didn'tcount and that you had to just
get on with things and you hadto be there you know you had to
be the one supporting everyoneelse because you were just the
sister or you're just thebrother or whatever.
I mean I had a particularexperience When, the police came
(09:09):
to my parents house and I openedthe door to them and they're
like, who are you?
And it was just that kind ofexperience really, hammers home
that.
So, it very much felt like therewasn't a space for me to grieve.
There wasn't anyone to talk to.
Any support was there forpartners or parents.
And even now, there's so muchmore now.
(09:31):
Which is why I was so passionateabout doing the project, because
I just wanted to tell thisstory.
And there is more there now, butstill not enough, I don't think.
So yeah, it's, it's felt like abig weight for a long time.
Dr. Dean (09:44):
Yeah.
that's why I founded thisproject, is because there was
very little, even just fouryears ago.
Thank you for sharing thatperspective.
It sounds like you're movingwith the grief in the ways that
you can.
You've mentioned the project acouple times, and I know what
you're talking about.
I'm very excited to See thatsoon.
But do you wanna share with ourlisteners the project you,
(10:06):
you've been doing?
Dawn Rodgers (10:07):
So when my brother passed away, just before that,
I'd also had my daughter and thecircumstances around that were
pretty traumatic as well.
I had these two huge events thathappened, together that I've
buried for quite a long time andas time went by, I found it just
easier not to talk about mybrother, which I find now when I
think about that, really sad.
(10:30):
And then, when we had thelockdowns in the UK, I don't
know, I think a lot of peopleself reflected.
So one of the ways my griefmanifested itself, this buried
grief was consistent andpersistent anxiety constantly
about just about everything Icouldn't control, very much
trying to control things.
And before that I'd been to seea counsellor, I'd been talking
(10:52):
to her quite a And it washelping me to realize it was
okay to still be grieving afterall this time and putting it in
perspective.
But I decided to do my master'sdegree in photography and you
had to put in a, proposal forit.
And I decided I was going tolook at My own childhood.
And that just naturally led meto my brother.
So over two years, I startedthinking about how I could tell
(11:15):
the story of what happened to mybrother without having to reveal
lots of private details and tocreate something.
That other siblings couldpotentially relate to as well as
it being, hopefully, a beautifulwork of art.
I've created this photographicproject which has manifested
itself as a photo book.
but within it there is, there'snothing, there's no words,
(11:37):
there's the tiny title of theproject.
and the only information in itis my brother's death
certificate.
and it just tells his life storyin a very short and brief way,
but also the imagery I'vecreated in it is also an
expression of my feelings.
So this project took me twoyears of my MA and then I just
(11:58):
finished it.
It took me another year afterthat to get it to a place where
I really wanted it to be.
So, this has been a way thatI've been able to turn my grief
into something reallyproductive, but also to be
something, that I'm in controlof, that expresses how I felt
and through only way I know how,and that was to do it visually
(12:20):
because talking about it was toodifficult.
Dr. Dean (12:24):
Mm-Hmm.
Thank you for sharing that.
I wonder what it was like toprocess your grief in that way
after all of this time.
'cause grief does last forever,but it also sounds like you put
it off.
Dawn Rodgers (12:37):
Yeah I definitely put it off.
in the introduction to the book,I talk about, Like grief being
pushed down and being calcified.
I photograph a lot of rocks.
We grew up in Dorset.
So, anyone who knows the UK, theJurassic coast, if you look that
up, you'll see, geographically,there's lots of, chalk and
different kinds of stone andthey're formed under pressure.
(13:00):
And I think that was one of thekind of ways of being able to
say, because I couldn't say itin words.
Whenever I talk about whathappened and about him, I'd get
so anxious.
even doing this later on, I'llprobably have some mild anxiety
that I'll have to process andthen that's fine, but I can do
that now.
And it just felt like, if Ibeing under constant pressure, I
(13:20):
had a big realization this yearwhen I realized that I get
anxious because I thinksomething terrible is going to
happen just before theanniversary of his death,
because something terrible didhappen.
And that's quite a normalreaction to feel like that.
but now it's now that I knowthat it's, I can be prepared for
that and then obviously manageit better, but it was really
(13:41):
hard to start unpacking it all.
And so I did it very slowly andI did it in ways that just
suited me and just pleased meand I didn't feel any obligation
to anyone except for my mum anddad, to do it in any way
whatsoever.
And by obligation to my parents,what I mean was I wanted to take
into account their feelings intothis because we are very close
(14:05):
as a family, so it's not just methat this project might affect
it.
It's them.
But my mum was amazing andreally on board with it.
And they gave me theirblessings, so to speak, to do
it.
And my dad literally said, ifanyone can do it, you're his
sister.
So if anyone can do it, youshould do it.
And so once I knew that, thatwas it.
So I was very much in control ofhow much I was allowing, to come
(14:29):
out and to come and it was alldone through finding a visual
language.
So I didn't actually have to sayit, I could do it through
pictures.
If I say and through books, andinitially at the beginning, I
was using photographs of mybrother.
but I was only using photographsof him from behind and sometimes
only using photographs of hishands because that is one of the
(14:50):
really strong visual memories Ihave, like his face is faded
over time, but for some reason Iremember his, hands I think
that's because when we went tomy grandfather's funeral, we
held hands.
We were, quite young teenagersthen.
And I was very upset and mybrother held my hand.
So I just remember him holdinghis hand and what his hands
(15:13):
looked like.
So I could use all of thesethings and allow them to
naturally come out in a way thatI was very much in control of.
So It was difficult at times,but I was so in control of it
that actually helped.
I could just do it a bit at atime.
And the tutor team I was workingwith were really sensitive to it
(15:35):
and really supportive.
And so I looked at a lot ofother artworks that were dealing
with the same sort of issues.
There's an amazing book, I can'tremember the artist's name, but
the book is called, The Rules ofFighting.
And her father passed away whenshe was five, but when her
parents married, they said, ifwe're going to have a
disagreement, these are therules.
(15:55):
And that's where the title camefrom.
And the way that was done was.
Just really fantastic and mademe think, this is a way that I
can talk about my brother.
I can talk about what happenedto Geoff, but not actually, I
can only, I can reveal as muchas I want to.
And I made it a rule that I wasnever going to say his cause of
death in the book.
(16:16):
I didn't mind saying it topeople, but not many people.
because I didn't want it to,taint the work.
So that was the only thingpeople would remember when they
were looking at it.
So that was a good way of givingme control as well.
I don't have to tell youbecause, it's, you don't need to
know thing.
So it gave all the control tome.
Dr. Dean (16:36):
Yeah, I love that.
I find it interesting, too,that, you found comfort in him
holding your hand in your grieffor your grandfather.
And then it sounds like you werefinding comfort in his hand for
grief for him.
Dawn Rodgers (16:52):
Yeah, I've never thought of it, like that.
But yes, I think it was justsuch a strong memory.
And I think when you losesomeone, especially as time goes
by, one of the hardest things isforgetting what they look like,
which is why photography is soimportant.
It's, it's like a kind ofwormhole, isn't it?
to the past and, the things youremember and associated around
(17:14):
photographs are not, I think youtend to remember the photograph,
but it can also trigger aconversation.
So when I look at these images,I do remember events, around it.
and also, our memories are quitefallible, aren't they as well?
Dr. Dean (17:27):
Absolutely.
Dawn Rodgers (17:28):
So sometimes what we think we remember is not
necessarily what we do, but itwas.
It allowed me to go back andreally look at all these
photographs and go back into mypast in a really safe way.
Again, it was about control.
And I think a lot of thatcontrolling thing comes from the
fact that this massive eventhappened and I couldn't, control
(17:48):
it.
I wasn't even there.
So it was, quite, I feltterrible that I wasn't there to
do something for quite a longtime, which again is.
Gosh, it's so unproductive and,I couldn't have done anything
even if I had been there.
I wouldn't have been at home.
I would have been, because I hadmy daughter, my husband, we were
living elsewhere at that point.
yeah, so I these photographs didgive me comfort.
(18:10):
They allowed me to go back to atime when we were together and
to really remember funny things,sad things, happy things.
I don't remember fighting.
with my brother particularly atall, like siblings do.
Occasionally we'd havedisagreements like any sibling,
but not really.
We were just very close to eachother.
Dr. Dean (18:26):
hmm.
I know in the book that youmentioned, you didn't want to
share how he died.
Do you want to share that withus?
Dawn Rodgers (18:34):
Yeah.
I'm happy to share that here inthis context.
my brother was, was murdered.
So that comes with such aloaded, thing.
So much weight.
I don't even know how to say it.
it's very loaded.
And so when people ask, at onepoint when people used to ask me
that I would refuse to answer,
Dr. Dean (18:54):
Mm hmm.
Dawn Rodgers (18:55):
because of their reaction to it.
But now I've got the point ofview that if you ask me and I
tell you, then you've got todeal with that.
with what, yeah, with what Isay.
I don't go into it.
I wouldn't share the details ofit, but that is a huge thing to
happen.
when it did happen, my husband,was actually in Weymouth at the
(19:15):
time, so had to come To collectme and had to tell me.
So I was just woken up in themiddle of the night and my
father was injured as well atthe same time.
So yeah, it's not an easy thingto talk about and not an easy
thing to process.
And I think at that point.
And the reason I mentioned mydaughter earlier was that at
(19:36):
that point I'd been recoveringfrom postnatal depression.
I'd really struggled with it andI was feeling really good and
really well.
And I think I just shut myselfdown at that point and thought,
I'm not going to feel anything.
I can't feel anything.
that's another reason why Ididn't think about it.
I think I just couldn't feellike I'd felt previously having
to deal with the previous sortof experience.
Dr. Dean (19:59):
It's the funny thing about trying to shut down
emotions and, reactions andgrief is that they find their
way to come out eventually.
Dawn Rodgers (20:06):
yeah.
And they do, and they did, andthey came out, for me, in this
form of anxiety, of trying tocontrol every single situation,
scenario, which I wasn't awareof for many, for a long time.
Not all the time, it would comeand go,
Dr. Dean (20:21):
Yeah.
What I also love about whatyou're doing is there are
different ways of grieving.
A lot of people think I have totalk about it to feel better.
and I've posted about this onsocial media or talked about it.
I'll probably put something inthe show notes about it too.
But there are absolutely ways ofgrieving.
that are a little bit moreinstrumental and doing things
(20:43):
like engaging in photography orphysical activity or, and so
what I love is that you'renormalizing.
I don't have to talk about this.
I can't put this into words, butI can very much process this
visually.
So thank you.
I don't know if you have otherthoughts on that.
Dawn Rodgers (20:59):
Yeah, because I think, like you say, I think we
feel obliged to, I think that'swhat made me stop talking about
it.
I felt like I owed people anexplanation as to what had
happened, but actually, no, Idon't.
I didn't owe anyone anexplanation about it.
I had some really thoughtlesscomments, and Funnily enough, I
was talking to my mother thismorning about our conversation
today, and we were both saying,we both experienced people that
(21:22):
just avoided us because theydidn't want to talk about it to
us.
you would meet them and go, oh,by the way, here's this terrible
thing, and I'm going to tell youall about it.
And, I didn't want to speakabout it, and I'm not that kind
of person, really, I'm quite aprivate person, ironically.
I, By not having to speak aboutit, I don't have to go away and
examine, because that's part ofthe sort of anxiety thing, I
don't have to go away and reexamine everything I've said in
(21:43):
my head.
It was weird, I will say, doingthe book, the very first book I
made, and then the first one Isold, that felt very strange.
And then, I had to rationaliseit by the person it went to I
knew would really value it asboth as an object and the story
that was in it.
And so that kind of put it topeace a little bit.
(22:06):
And then making this book andthen selling it, it's weird,
it's a very strange thing.
that's the whole purpose of artis that you make a book and, or
you make a piece of artwork andthe hope is that somebody else
may want it and you might sellit to them or you might not, I
don't know.
It was really odd and there wasa lot of complex feelings tied
up in the whole creation of it.
(22:26):
But the main thing was I was incontrol of all that.
if I didn't want to sell it, Ididn't have to.
If I didn't want to talk aboutanything, I didn't have to.
It was just there.
It was in this thing, but Idon't know.
I've had such a positiveresponse, mainly from other
siblings that have contacted me,people who, some people I've met
and spoken to and formedfriendships with, because of it.
(22:50):
So it, it gave me the powerback.
It gave me the right to decidewhat I said and when I said it.
And I think that was the mostimportant thing that's come out
of making it.
And also, I think artwork isquite a good way, no matter,
people often think of artwork ashaving to be a certain thing, a
certain standard or a certainthing, but it's such a good way,
(23:11):
even if you just writeeverything down and then set
fire to it, or you somehow getyour feelings out and down in
some way, whatever way that is.
I just think it's reallypositive and you're always in
control of it.
You don't have to do anythingwith it or whatever.
Dr. Dean (23:26):
Yeah, I love that.
it's interesting because in mywork with patients that are
struggling with anxiety, thisidea of control is so present,
but I think that's obviouslytrue in grief as well.
Like we want to be able tocontrol things and when we
can't, the emotions and otherresponses, physical or whatever,
catch us off guard.
(23:48):
I like that you were able totake control and still process
your, experience.
Dawn Rodgers (23:53):
the master's degree I did was online because
of the, it's online anyway, butwith the pandemic it was more,
more online than it had been.
And you create these sort ofseminar groups you build a trust
with the people.
So you're talking about yourwork as a piece of artwork.
So that was a really great wayfor me to talk about it.
Cause I could make it academicand I could read texts and I
(24:16):
could look at otherphotographers that have done it.
And I could create this languagethat was a little bit removed
that allowed me to then veryslowly, process it.
and I read a book, which Iwouldn't unless you're really
into photographic theory, youwouldn't want to read it, but it
was by Roland Barthes and it'sCameron Lucida, but there is
(24:38):
another book called The MorningDiaries where basically the
first book is about the death ofhis mother and photography's
relationship to that, but thenthis morning diaries is just a
few sentences when he just saystoday, I am so desperately sad.
And so he processes that.
I mean, that's been publishedafter his death, but it was, he
(24:59):
would just reveal these smallamounts of information to
himself.
So all this language allowed meto then, in return, I was able
to reveal small amounts ofinformation.
And as the time went on, I thencould talk about it.
And I've wrapped it up inmythology as well to make it a
little bit easier.
So as part of it, I was lookinga lot at Welsh mythology,
(25:23):
because I'm not a religiousperson, I have deep respect for
everyone else's beliefs, but I'mnot.
And but this Welsh, mythology,sort of told these sort of sagas
and stories.
And one of the things that cameout of it was this thing called
the other place.
And it's just another dimension.
So it goes back to my brotherand my love of science fiction
(25:44):
in a way, but it, they werelike, there are portals to the
other place all over the Englishcountryside and in Wales.
And, so I then started walkingas a way of, Kind of working
through it and I could go backto places where we've been as
children and I'd read abeautiful book by Robert
McFarlane and he talked abouthow we can tread memory into the
(26:06):
earth and we leave our presencebehind.
And so I would go back to theseplaces, there'd be a real like
comfort in the fact that we'dbeen there together and there
was a little bit of both of us.
left behind in that space fromour footsteps wearing a pathway.
so all of these sort of littlemetaphors and things all helped
me to keep processing my griefand over, over this sort of two
(26:30):
or three year period to thepoint now where I can have this
sort of conversation.
Dr. Dean (26:36):
Yeah.
Thank you.
This reminds me of last year.
I went to this conference.
I'm very excited because I'mgoing back It's on death dying
and bereavement and I went to aworkshop there and they had us
for homework that evening justwalk around the city that we
were in and take photographs ofsomething that reminded us of
(26:56):
our loss and It was supermeaningful to do.
I haven't really done it muchsince a few times, but it sounds
like that is what your bookreally was.
Yeah,definately.
I used to find that part of theprocess
Dawn Rodgers (27:13):
was I had to absorb myself, had to get into a
certain mindset to get into, tobe able to take the photographs.
And it was almost likeprojecting my grief through the
camera onto the landscape or,and vice versa.
And sometimes when you go tothese places, they are some are
really remote.
(27:33):
Some weren't, but you, becomequite peaceful.
I found that I was becomingquite peaceful.
they're often Iron Age sites,Dorset's full of them, standing
stones and barrows.
And like when I was in theseplaces, I'd be like, Oh, I can
see why this, stone circle wasbuilt here.
If you take away all thefarmer's fields and you've just
got this amazing view out tosea.
(27:55):
and so there was a sort ofthought process there where I
was thinking about it andprocessing it.
And I suppose just letting it gointo the environment.
So walking is, became reallyimportant.
And I would then just go andsit.
And then I had a few kind ofexperiences where like wildlife,
because you're so still, I'd beso still in these environments
(28:18):
that I would think like rabbitsand hares.
I had two experiences with ahare, where they just came out
of nowhere and it jumped over afence and it looked at me and I
looked at him or her, I lookedat them and they like we all,
they, then they ran away.
And then there's an amazingplace here in, not far from
Berkshire, it's called the,Uffington White Horse.
(28:40):
And if anyone, ever gets achance to go there or see it,
it's just this amazing chalkwhite horse.
But I went there one day on myown in the week.
So there's no visitors.
And again, I saw a hare.
So this hare in a strange way,Came to symbolize my brother.
And I felt like he was then likevery with me, when I was out
taking these photos and then in,in a way, obviously he was in
(29:01):
here, with me as I went out, butit, an amazing way to.
To process, feelings, to justget outside and reconnect with
nature became very important tome, and, to be able to do that
because you can just leave itall out there.
And in my case, I let it all outand then photographed it and
then took it back home andprocessed it in another way.
(29:23):
But so it did, it was an amazingthing.
I'm really, I'm so glad I didit.
I don't think I would be where Iam now.
Dr. Dean (29:30):
Yeah.
I'm glad that you were able todo that too.
It sounds like you, obviouslywith the hare, had that
connection with your brother.
Do you feel like you have anongoing relationship with him?
Dawn Rodgers (29:46):
I'm not quite sure in what way you mean, but he's
always there in my thoughts nowin a more peaceful way.
And I think I can talk about himand our relationship because I
couldn't before.
So maybe yes, in that way.
Yes.
But I do feel like, I can go andvisit him.
And so that I do occasionallywhen I go home to my parents go
(30:10):
to the crematorium where hisashes are interned and I'll go
and visit him.
that's how I see it.
And I'm, might have a littlechat.
I don't go very regular.
One time I was going quiteoften, but, occasionally my mum
will always on key dates.
put, flowers and things.
And I always think about him,because he died on Remembrance
(30:30):
Sunday, it's very hard to, orRemembrance Day, sorry, in the
UK, it's extremely hard to notremember because you're
surrounded by compulsoryremembrance, it feels like to
me, and So it's very difficult.
but it does mean that rememberhim, remembering him is now not
painful in the way that it was.
(30:51):
And it, the actual point of hisdeath will always be difficult,
but I can now remember all theother stuff.
it's not tainted by that onemoment.
Now I've been able to bring backall these really lovely memories
about him and remember themrather than the actual point of
his death.
Dr. Dean (31:10):
Thank you.
I think for a lot of our guestsand listeners, that's been
something many of them andmyself are a lot earlier in the
grief process and thinking aboutsometimes you don't want to
remember.
of course you don't want toremember how they died, but
sometimes that's where you getstuck.
So thank you for sharing yourperspective on that.
Dawn Rodgers (31:29):
yeah, I definitely agree with that.
I think you can get stuck.
I think I definitely got stuckbefore that.
At that point, I couldn't getpast that.
it was so big.
And I think because that moment,had to last a whole year because
of the event where we wentthrough all kinds of legal
processes.
So you weren't allowed to moveon for a, at all, to any kind of
(31:51):
space or place it felt like.
So you were a bit stuck in thatmoment and that was very hard.
Dr. Dean (31:57):
hmm.
You have a daughter.
Do you have other children?
Dawn Rodgers (32:01):
No, I just have my one lovely daughter, Jasmine.
Dr. Dean (32:04):
Have you shared with Jasmine about your brother?
Dawn Rodgers (32:09):
no, do you know, that's funny enough you saying,
I haven't actually, she knowsabout him and I do refer to it,
but I wouldn't say I'd sit downand have a conversation with her
about it.
I'm not sure why, maybe that'sthe next thing.
I think because for her, he is.
a very abstract figure becauseshe was three when he died.
(32:30):
So she has no memory of him atall.
And he did used to babysit forher, look after her.
And when we were talking about,things that you are taking, that
are taken from you, it's that'sanother relationship in some
ways, I know that have beentaken from her was this
relationship with her uncle.
So no, I don't, it's funny.
I haven't really thought aboutthat at all.
(32:51):
So no, I don't think.
Dr. Dean (32:53):
It's interesting because I can relate with her on
that.
My, father's brother wasmurdered in Italy before they
came here.
And it wasn't until I lost mybrother that I really started
asking more questions about myuncle.
I knew the story and I knew thatmy dad's brother had been
murdered, but I didn't reallyask questions.
(33:14):
Because it feels like thismythic, like you said, mythical
figure.
Dawn Rodgers (33:17):
Yeah, I think, when she was younger, it didn't
feel appropriate to talk aboutit with, and then I think it
becomes habit, doesn't it?
So you don't and it might besomething she asked me about at
some point later.
obviously I've talked about thebook to her.
and she knows what that's allabout, but again, that's just a
bit more abstract.
it's a piece of artwork.
She's used to me doing that, ifthat makes sense.
(33:39):
Like throughout her life, I'vealways made work.
so yeah, gosh, yeah.
I've never, it's maybe making methink I've never really spoken
to them.
Dr. Dean (33:50):
What would you say to him now about where you've come
since that time?
Dawn Rodgers (33:56):
Well, I think he'd probably be slightly embarrassed
by the fact I've made, a bookabout him So I probably wanna
talk to him about that.
I, to check he was okay withthat.
But then part of me knows thathe would,'cause he is such a
massive supporter of me, doingart when it wasn't necessarily,
approved of, I think growing upin there.
(34:16):
the 80s.
It's all about, leave school,get a job.
this is what you're going to do.
It's very prescribed for womenparticularly.
so my brother was always a hugesupporter of me doing my
artwork.
so yeah, I'd like to show him,I'd like to have a little chat
about it and see if he'd want tochange anything.
And I don't know, that'd bereally nice to just catch up
with him and find out how he'sbeen what he's been up to.
(34:40):
if that was a possibility to goback to, to talk to him now, as
he would be, it's, I think,gosh, he'd probably be really
horrified because I'm quite oldnow and he'd be still 22.
So the last time he saw me, Iwas 24, look very different.
I had, my hair wasn't white fora start, but yeah.
So it's it'd be quite a nicething, I think, quite a joyful
(35:00):
thing.
I'm not sure what we'd have acoffee or something
Dr. Dean (35:04):
Yeah,
Dawn Rodgers (35:05):
went.
Dr. Dean (35:07):
What do you miss most?
Dawn Rodgers (35:09):
I think it's the friendship.
that was the thing we weredeveloping, as like the
friendship of young adults,starting at our adult lives and
having our families.
And, I do feel, I used to feelreally envious of seeing people
with their brothers, and, beingat their weddings or, I noticed
(35:31):
these, all these big familyevents, but just spending time
with them and that friendshipand that companionship.
And, I've got friends now whohave siblings and the closeness,
just all of those things,really.
I think that's what I reallymiss.
And, Yeah, we used to play, weused to play Dungeons and
Dragons together.
That was one of the things wedid as a young adults.
(35:52):
And I kind of missed that.
They were always fun evenings.
We ate a lot of snacks when wedid that.
It was good.
Dr. Dean (35:58):
where can our listeners find your book and
Dawn Rodgers (36:02):
if they want to, see it, it is on, it's on my
website, that, so the actualbook to buy is on the website.
If they go to my Instagramthough, they can follow the
journey of development and howit's got to where it is.
And there are lots of examplesof all the photography I've done
and my thought processes are allthere.
And that's the best place to seeit really is on Instagram.
(36:23):
on my website, I do have a blog,which if you go back to the
beginning, explains how I got togot to where it is now in an
academic way.
but it's an easy read.
so yeah, if you said my websitewill eventually be updated with
the whole story, the Kickstarterhad that kind of, the talk, the,
the sort of beginning of it onit as well, and I think that is
(36:44):
still public.
if people find that they canactually read that as well.
So yeah.
Dr. Dean (36:49):
I'll put those links in the show
Dawn Rodgers (36:51):
Thank you.
Dr. Dean (36:52):
You're welcome.
Thank you for sharing that.
Are there things that you wishyou knew 30 years ago that
you've had to learn over the 30years for those of us that
aren't out that far?
Dawn Rodgers (37:04):
Yeah, I think, I wish I had just spoken about him
more.
I think it would be, I'd havemore, probably more memories
now.
I think the fact that I've.
not really spoken about it andnot thought about it means you
forget things.
And I think if I'd that was oneof the joys of doing the project
was, going through the photoswith my mum and my mum
remembering stuff.
And I was talking about it andfinding out things.
(37:27):
And I think I'd be more openabout it and less afraid of what
other people might think.
I think that's really hard whenyou're young.
perhaps to process that.
I think I would have taught, ifI could have connected with
other siblings, I think I wouldlove to have done that.
And it means so much to me nowwhen people contact me, to talk
(37:49):
to them about their brothers ortheir sisters.
I had a massive connection, withsomeone called Megan, who, she
was the first person I reallyspoke to it about and because of
the circumstance of her ownbrother's passing.
we really connected and it was,and it just felt such relief.
To talk to her and I'd neverhad, and I really wish I had
(38:12):
been able to do that.
I have a really dear friend whoI think without her probably
would've gone a bit mad, who waswho I could talk to, but I think
I just needed to relax about itall a bit.
which is really hard though,isn't it?
You're in this situation whereyou're so upset and I just
couldn't manage that and I thinkI should have just allowed that
to, to happen.
(38:33):
And I think probably spoken tosomeone about it much.
it sounds ridiculous and whatgot me really got me started on
the journey was I had a really,I'm a big dog lover and I had a
really beloved Labrador thatdied very dramatically and
suddenly in front of me and mymum rang me at the exact moment
(38:55):
and it was a massive trigger.
It triggered everything back tothe beginning and that was the
beginning of the journey ofrecovery.
And in fact, I met.
The lady who had been counselingme recently to give her a copy
of the book and I said to her Ithink that was my dog's last
gift to me.
That makes me really feel sadactually when I talk about that
(39:16):
because he allowed me to thenbegin the conversation, begin
the journey to being properlyfeeling healed about the whole
event.
So it was just I don't know,it's very, I'm so locked down
about my brother emotionallythat I think that event allowed
me to
Dr. Dean (39:34):
Mhm.
Dawn Rodgers (39:34):
out.
Dr. Dean (39:35):
You mentioned earlier that you were perceived as just
the sibling in that, in thoseearly days.
I wonder if that also impactedhow you shut down, even with
your parents or,
Dawn Rodgers (39:47):
yeah, I think, and that's not, I have to stress
that, it's not come from myparents at all, it's
Dr. Dean (39:53):
oh, good, good.
Dawn Rodgers (39:55):
It's just like societal, I think, but it did, I
think it did, I felt I wasn'taligned.
This could be completelyimagined.
I don't know.
But I really felt that I wasn'tallowed to be sad because I was
a sibling, and that I was thereto support everyone else and to
help them, cope with their griefand to be there for them.
(40:18):
And I didn't feel like there wasa space for me to, to be able to
grieve.
when I'm, when I'm sitting heretalking to you now and
remembering all sorts of.
things that are reallyupsetting.
but I couldn't really share themwith anyone.
And I just, it was all me.
It was all in this.
I was the one that put up thebarriers, I think.
(40:39):
but I don't remember anyoneasking me if I was okay, but
they might've done.
It might be that I just wasn'tready to hear it.
So.
It's not about placing blame onanyone or anything, but I did
feel like I, it wasn't, I, Iwasn't his partner.
I wasn't his parent.
I was his sister and I somehowfelt like I didn't have a space
(41:00):
to be able to grieve
Dr. Dean (41:04):
I don't think you're imagining that, because that's
been a pretty common theme withall of our guests and myself and
some of my patients, that's justunfortunately how society often
sees siblings until it happensto them.
And I don't think it's harmful,like you said, I don't think,
people are not asking you.
it's not intentional.
(41:24):
We just don't really think aboutthe sibling relationship in the
same way that it actually hasmeaning.
Dawn Rodgers (41:31):
I think as well, people Don't think there's a
sort of politeness maybe in theUK where people don't ask you
about those things.
They don't want to upset you.
Whereas actually you might wantto be upset or you might, I
might just, in the early days, Ijust wanted to like, when people
were talking, this is a reallyclear memory.
When people were talking abouttheir brothers and I would go,
(41:54):
Oh yeah, my brother used to dothat.
You just hear the silence.
It was like, like I dropped thebiggest clanger in the room.
And so that also stopped me fromtalking about him and.
It made me quite angry atpoints, but it just became
easier just to save otherpeople's discomfort.
and then maybe I'm a product ofmy generation, but all about not
(42:16):
upsetting anyone else.
So in the end, I just stoppedtalking about it because it
clearly upset other people tothink that might be a
possibility, for them, when youstart talking about someone in
the past tense and in thecircumstances, my, my brother's
death.
Yeah, it was really difficult.
If I met someone, this wasreally fascinating, her
experience.
So her brother died the exactsame year as mine.
(42:39):
Few months apart, but we wereboth had the same experience
that we were both at universitywhere people went, just need to
get this bit done really, if youcan just get on and do it.
And just like this kind ofpressure to like finish,
whereas, put that thing behindyou, this really big event
that's happened to you, likejust forget that and let's just
get on with doing your degree.
And it, and I don't think theymeant anything by it.
(43:01):
I'm not going to mentionanyone's name, but I don't think
they meant anything by it.
at all, but people just didn'tknow how to process that.
Whereas now, obviously, thatexperience would be completely
different for any, anybody of myage that was studying at the
time.
the support would be there, butat that time it was like, let's
just forget this and crack onand get your degree done.
(43:23):
So yeah, I made it through tothe end amazingly.
Dr. Dean (43:26):
I'm glad to hear that.
Do you have any favoritememories that you want to share
with us?
Dawn Rodgers (43:32):
Yeah, I think some of my favorites are Christmas
type memories, and being the onethat constantly woke my brother
up going, is it time to get up?
waiting for Christmas morningand constantly waiting, for him.
And just, there's one reallyclear memory and it's in one of
the first books that I made andMy brother and I were putting up
(43:57):
Christmas decorations with myfather and he obviously clearly
was ready for us to go to bed.
I don't know how late it was.
And he started going, Oh mygoodness.
Can you see?
Look, I can see Santa over thereon the rooftop.
And he literally convinced usboth that we could, see Santa on
the rooftop.
So we had to go to bed in casehe didn't come.
(44:18):
We were very young.
I mean, I think I was probablyonly about four or five when
that happened.
And so my brother would havebeen about two or three, I think
I was five.
But yeah, he totally convincedus it was time for us to go to
bed.
So we did.
And that, that really stays withme.
That always makes me chucklewhen I think about it.
Dr. Dean (44:38):
thank you for sharing that.
that's charming.
Imagining you as a child
Dawn Rodgers (44:44):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (44:44):
looking out The window for Santa.
Dawn Rodgers (44:46):
fishing.
Dr. Dean (44:47):
Fishing?
Dawn Rodgers (44:48):
Yeah.
My brother was a huge fan offishing and I remember him
trying to teach me to fish.
That was the other one that wasvery bad at it.
Dr. Dean (44:56):
Do you try now?
Dawn Rodgers (44:57):
a, Oh, no.
Goodness.
No I don't I'll leave that tohim.
Dr. Dean (45:03):
He tried to teach you though.
Dawn Rodgers (45:05):
he did try to teach me.
we did go out.
so we were very lucky becauseliving in Dorset, when we were
young, youngsters, weren't quiteteenagers, but we had to have a
lot of freedom to, to roamaround.
And we'd often go down to thebeach and, so my brother would
go fishing.
So one day I went with him andwas trying to get him to teach
me.
(45:26):
I think I managed to cast a lineeventually, but yeah, it wasn't
very good.
I have done it since than myhusband actually.
but yeah, that any lessons I hadfrom the past didn't help them
either.
Dr. Dean (45:39):
All right.
Was there anything else that youwanted to share or talk about
today that we didn't talk aboutyet?
Dawn Rodgers (45:44):
No, I I suppose just anyone who's listening to
this, there, there are peopleout there that are they will be
willing to listen and supportyou.
And, just, as, and when youfeel, don't feel like this
pressure to have to move on inyour grief until you're really
ready for it.
(46:05):
I think that would be thebiggest thing and don't do what
I didn't lock it down for solong.
cause it does it, I haveforgotten lots of things I think
because of that, which is ashame.
Dr. Dean (46:17):
Thank you for that actually leads me to one other
question.
I know it's slightly differentthere in the UK But it sounds
like you've had a incrediblegrief counselor to help you.
Dawn Rodgers (46:29):
Yeah, I was really lucky.
So I, I started having, so whenthe big event happened with my
dog, I started having my anxietyjust went through the roof and
I'm very, I was very lucky thatI had access to free counseling,
which is not always the case,but the counselor I had.
I went to talk to her aboutanxiety and ended up talking
(46:52):
about my brother all the time.
and I could see her as and when,even when we were in lockdown, I
could see her remotely.
it, it was so strange.
I think it was just so the righttime.
It didn't, it allowed me tounderstand that grief was just
this thing that was like, veryorganic and it didn't have to
(47:12):
follow a line and that it's, nowonder you felt anxious.
this thing happened and justhelped me to gain perspective
about it all and then being ableto process it through, artwork.
So I, I do sometimes just get intouch and not for counselling,
just to let her know when I madethe book and when I finished
that, I did get in touch thereand just to let her know that,
(47:34):
because I felt she was quiteinstrumental in helping me just
think and reflect on things, aswell.
So I just wanted her to knowthat it came out really well.
It was really helpful and thatit just, yeah, it was, I don't
know, it just felt all okay.
It all feels all okay now.
Dr. Dean (47:52):
Yeah thank you for that and congratulations on the
book.
Dawn Rodgers (47:57):
Thank you very much.
Dr. Dean (47:58):
You're welcome.
Thanks for chatting with metoday as well.
Dawn Rodgers (48:02):
It's been my pleasure.
It's been lovely.
Dr. Dean (48:04):
/Thank you so much for listening.
Our theme song was written byJoe Mylward and Brian Dean and
was performed by Fuji Sounds(feat.
MYLWD.).
If you would like moreinformation on The Broken Pack™,
go to our website,thebrokenpack.
com.
Be sure to sign up for ournewsletter, Wild Grief™, and to
learn about opportunities andreceive exclusive information
and content, as well as grievingtips for subscribers.
(48:26):
Information on that, our socialmedia and on our guest can be
found in the show notes whereveryou get your podcasts.
Please like, follow, rate,subscribe, and share.
Thanks again.
Hello and welcome to The Broken Pack™, a podcast
focused on giving adultsurvivors of sibling loss a
platform to share their storiesand to be heard.
Something that many sibling losssurvivors state that they never
have had.
Sibling Loss, is Misunderstood™.
The Broken Pack™exists to changethat and to support survivors.
(00:32):
I'm your host, Dr.
Angela Dean.
Listen to this episode to hearDawn's sibling loss story about
losing Geoff, who was murdered30 years ago.
in this episode, we discuss herdelayed grief and the difficulty
that she had with speaking abouther brother.
We also explore how herdifficulty in processing her
loss for three decades hasmanifested into visual
(00:56):
processing of her grief in hernow published book called
Sorrow.
We also discuss where she is nowwith her grief and advice she
has for those of us who are muchearlier on in our sibling loss
journey.
Take a listen.
(01:20):
Content warning.
This episode includesdiscussions of sibling loss
through murder.
Listener discretion is advised.
All right.
So welcome to the show.
I'm wondering how you wanted tointroduce yourself to our
listeners.
Dawn Rodgers (01:33):
Most obvious way is to say that, I'm a teacher.
So I teach people photography,but I'm also a photographer and
those are my two kind of greatpassions in life is teaching
photography and actually doingit.
That just sums it up reallyquickly about what I do.
Dr. Dean (01:51):
What would you like us to know about Geoff before we
talk about losing him?
Dawn Rodgers (01:55):
My brother was quite a shy and quite reserved
person.
That's how I always saw him.
It's very very quiet and, and asthoughtful I think what I would
like to say about him.
But we were very close,, when wewere very young.
and I miss that closeness.
But it was fun to be around.
We both had a passion forsci-fi, and regularly visited
the cinema together, to go watchvarious things.
(02:18):
when we were young, we spent agreat deal of time together and.
I'm sure it'll come out in theconversation, but, it was partly
to do with, the fact that myfather was in the military.
So we moved around a lot.
So we generally tended to bequite close to each other for
that reason.
Dr. Dean (02:33):
Mm Hmm I've heard that from a lot of people that moving
around because the stability offriends changes so much that you
hang on to your siblings in adifferent way.,
Dawn Rodgers (02:42):
Yeah, definitely.
Dr. Dean (02:44):
What was the age difference like?
Dawn Rodgers (02:46):
It was 18 months.
So again, I think that played apart in the sort of closeness
that we had.
was that in age we were veryclose, but I very much took on
the role of the older sibling,looking after my brother,
although I can't remember doingthis, she tells me this a lot,
was at one point in primaryschool when we moved to a new
school and he just wouldn'tspeak to anybody because he was
(03:07):
very shy.
And, so they had to come andcollect me to come and speak to
him and for him, at thatparticular point.
But obviously as people grow, asthey change, but yeah, so very
much I was in a kind of caringrole for my brother.
Dr. Dean (03:21):
mmhmm So it sounds like your relationship was
pretty close as kids.
Did that change over time?
Dawn Rodgers (03:28):
No, I don't think So.
I think just circumstances,meant that it changed.
I left home at a quite a youngage and went off to pursue my
life and my career and wantingto be an artist.
It was my kind of focus.
So I moved and moved away fromour hometown, in my 20s, but I'd
left home by the time I was 17and went on to be self
(03:50):
sufficient.
I was quite an independentperson.
So we did stay in touch.
but I think, this is going backsort of 30 in touch was very
different from now where, youcan be in daily connection with
someone across the world.
But at that point, it wasn't.
So when I would go home, wewould see each other and
socialize together.
(04:11):
and it was funny the other day,I was just talking to another
sibling who had lost theirbrother.
And I don't know, it justoccurred to me, I don't have
photographs of us, the two of ustogether as adults.
and that was slightlymelancholic to realize that.
Dr. Dean (04:25):
Mmhmm.
Yeah it’s interesting to thinkabout that one because
photography and photographs areso important to you and also
yeah we didn't have a lot ofways of communicating back then
in the same way that we do now.
Like this conversation we werehaving probably wouldn't have
happened.
Dawn Rodgers (04:42):
No.
Dr. Dean (04:43):
You would have, I would have never known about you
or connected.
Dawn Rodgers (04:46):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (04:47):
Thank you for that perspective.
What would you like to shareabout losing Geoff?
Dawn Rodgers (04:50):
Because of doing the book and doing this project,
I've spoken to so many peopleabout their experiences.
I think the biggest thing for meis just not having that kind of
person there, that person thatsort of shares your past, that
remembers, the sort of in jokesthat you had; that remembers the
Christmases and all those sortof events growing up and the
(05:14):
time you spent together, likejust talking to you now, I'm
remembering when my brother andI decided to set up a shop at
home and, handcrafted things tosell to the neighbours, and it's
those little things that, Whenyou are with your family and
when you're with your siblings,they remember that, but they
also remember your perspectiveand your viewpoint on it.
(05:35):
Whereas your parents, theirperspective and everything is
completely different.
it's from that parentalperspective.
So you know the person that whenyou say, oh, that was so unfair,
whatever, that person thatwould, so that would say, yeah,
that's right.
That was really unfair, isn'tthere anymore.
And that's really, it's reallysad, but it's also, I think.
the future as well.
(05:57):
They like the future is takenaway.
So as we move on and grow older,your sibling is normally with
you and they're the ones thatremember the past with you.
And eventually obviously, whenmy parents aren't here anymore,
there will be no one that willreally remember the past in the
same way that he did.
And that connection and thatfamily bond, I think, just isn't
there, that won't be thereanymore.
(06:18):
I find that really sad as well.
I find that really hard.
And then the whole circumstancesaround losing him were not easy,
as well.
So it's all of those things.
It's all a bit messy, I think,in some ways.
ways
Dr. Dean (06:34):
mmhmm for sure.
I've been thinking about that alot lately too, It sounds like
you don't have other siblingseither.
Dawn Rodgers (06:40):
No, it's just me now.
Dr. Dean (06:42):
Yeah, so being the last one standing, if you will,
in your family of origin, that'sa difficult thing.
I'm sure difficult if you havesiblings too.
Dawn Rodgers (06:50):
I just think when, it's part of the natural order
when, eventually you lose yourparents and it's that person
there that would remember themwith you and will remember that
childhood that you had togetherand, suddenly that's not there.
And then, like I said, thefuture isn't there either.
the perspective.
prospect maybe of, he mightnever have married, but he also
might have.
(07:10):
And, had children and all ofthose things, nieces and nephews
aren't.
I don't know.
These are things that reallyoccurred to me in the very
early, early days.
They're not things that I thinkabout very much now.
Your question has prompted me tothink about that, but.
not very much now, but there'sstill a sort of sadness that
those, that future isn't there.
(07:32):
I think that's the biggestthing.
Dr. Dean (07:35):
Yeah.
How old was he when he died?
Dawn Rodgers (07:37):
But he was so young.
It was in 93.
So I think he literally just hadhis birthday.
He might've just turned 23 then.
Yeah.
So very young.
that was some of the things likewhen I've been creating my
artwork is, it's that loss ofpotential, that future
potential, that I thought abouta lot, all these kind of
experiences and things that havehappened in the world and all
(07:58):
this, like just talking aboutthe technological changes, which
I think he'd have found sointeresting.
He hasn't witnessed any of thator experienced any of that and
might have been part of that.
You don't know what a person'sfuture potential is.
And It's just incredibly sad tohave someone so young, no longer
there.
Dr. Dean (08:18):
Yeah.
So you've been carrying thisgrief and this loss of him for a
very long time.
Dawn Rodgers (08:23):
Yes.
Yeah.
last year was like 30 years,since he'd, passed away.
And like I said, in the earlypart of that, when I've spoken
to a lot of siblings, like laternow, cause it's obviously I
connect with these people.
there just wasn't that therewasn't any support there wasn't
anything there and it felt likein the beginning like you didn't
(08:47):
count and your grief didn'tcount and that you had to just
get on with things and you hadto be there you know you had to
be the one supporting everyoneelse because you were just the
sister or you're just thebrother or whatever.
I mean I had a particularexperience When, the police came
(09:09):
to my parents house and I openedthe door to them and they're
like, who are you?
And it was just that kind ofexperience really, hammers home
that.
So, it very much felt like therewasn't a space for me to grieve.
There wasn't anyone to talk to.
Any support was there forpartners or parents.
And even now, there's so muchmore now.
(09:31):
Which is why I was so passionateabout doing the project, because
I just wanted to tell thisstory.
And there is more there now, butstill not enough, I don't think.
So yeah, it's, it's felt like abig weight for a long time.
Dr. Dean (09:44):
Yeah.
that's why I founded thisproject, is because there was
very little, even just fouryears ago.
Thank you for sharing thatperspective.
It sounds like you're movingwith the grief in the ways that
you can.
You've mentioned the project acouple times, and I know what
you're talking about.
I'm very excited to See thatsoon.
But do you wanna share with ourlisteners the project you,
(10:06):
you've been doing?
Dawn Rodgers (10:07):
So when my brother passed away, just before that,
I'd also had my daughter and thecircumstances around that were
pretty traumatic as well.
I had these two huge events thathappened, together that I've
buried for quite a long time andas time went by, I found it just
easier not to talk about mybrother, which I find now when I
think about that, really sad.
(10:30):
And then, when we had thelockdowns in the UK, I don't
know, I think a lot of peopleself reflected.
So one of the ways my griefmanifested itself, this buried
grief was consistent andpersistent anxiety constantly
about just about everything Icouldn't control, very much
trying to control things.
And before that I'd been to seea counsellor, I'd been talking
(10:52):
to her quite a And it washelping me to realize it was
okay to still be grieving afterall this time and putting it in
perspective.
But I decided to do my master'sdegree in photography and you
had to put in a, proposal forit.
And I decided I was going tolook at My own childhood.
And that just naturally led meto my brother.
So over two years, I startedthinking about how I could tell
(11:15):
the story of what happened to mybrother without having to reveal
lots of private details and tocreate something.
That other siblings couldpotentially relate to as well as
it being, hopefully, a beautifulwork of art.
I've created this photographicproject which has manifested
itself as a photo book.
but within it there is, there'snothing, there's no words,
(11:37):
there's the tiny title of theproject.
and the only information in itis my brother's death
certificate.
and it just tells his life storyin a very short and brief way,
but also the imagery I'vecreated in it is also an
expression of my feelings.
So this project took me twoyears of my MA and then I just
(11:58):
finished it.
It took me another year afterthat to get it to a place where
I really wanted it to be.
So, this has been a way thatI've been able to turn my grief
into something reallyproductive, but also to be
something, that I'm in controlof, that expresses how I felt
and through only way I know how,and that was to do it visually
(12:20):
because talking about it was toodifficult.
Dr. Dean (12:24):
Mm-Hmm.
Thank you for sharing that.
I wonder what it was like toprocess your grief in that way
after all of this time.
'cause grief does last forever,but it also sounds like you put
it off.
Dawn Rodgers (12:37):
Yeah I definitely put it off.
in the introduction to the book,I talk about, Like grief being
pushed down and being calcified.
I photograph a lot of rocks.
We grew up in Dorset.
So, anyone who knows the UK, theJurassic coast, if you look that
up, you'll see, geographically,there's lots of, chalk and
different kinds of stone andthey're formed under pressure.
(13:00):
And I think that was one of thekind of ways of being able to
say, because I couldn't say itin words.
Whenever I talk about whathappened and about him, I'd get
so anxious.
even doing this later on, I'llprobably have some mild anxiety
that I'll have to process andthen that's fine, but I can do
that now.
And it just felt like, if Ibeing under constant pressure, I
(13:20):
had a big realization this yearwhen I realized that I get
anxious because I thinksomething terrible is going to
happen just before theanniversary of his death,
because something terrible didhappen.
And that's quite a normalreaction to feel like that.
but now it's now that I knowthat it's, I can be prepared for
that and then obviously manageit better, but it was really
(13:41):
hard to start unpacking it all.
And so I did it very slowly andI did it in ways that just
suited me and just pleased meand I didn't feel any obligation
to anyone except for my mum anddad, to do it in any way
whatsoever.
And by obligation to my parents,what I mean was I wanted to take
into account their feelings intothis because we are very close
(14:05):
as a family, so it's not just methat this project might affect
it.
It's them.
But my mum was amazing andreally on board with it.
And they gave me theirblessings, so to speak, to do
it.
And my dad literally said, ifanyone can do it, you're his
sister.
So if anyone can do it, youshould do it.
And so once I knew that, thatwas it.
So I was very much in control ofhow much I was allowing, to come
(14:29):
out and to come and it was alldone through finding a visual
language.
So I didn't actually have to sayit, I could do it through
pictures.
If I say and through books, andinitially at the beginning, I
was using photographs of mybrother.
but I was only using photographsof him from behind and sometimes
only using photographs of hishands because that is one of the
(14:50):
really strong visual memories Ihave, like his face is faded
over time, but for some reason Iremember his, hands I think
that's because when we went tomy grandfather's funeral, we
held hands.
We were, quite young teenagersthen.
And I was very upset and mybrother held my hand.
So I just remember him holdinghis hand and what his hands
(15:13):
looked like.
So I could use all of thesethings and allow them to
naturally come out in a way thatI was very much in control of.
So It was difficult at times,but I was so in control of it
that actually helped.
I could just do it a bit at atime.
And the tutor team I was workingwith were really sensitive to it
(15:35):
and really supportive.
And so I looked at a lot ofother artworks that were dealing
with the same sort of issues.
There's an amazing book, I can'tremember the artist's name, but
the book is called, The Rules ofFighting.
And her father passed away whenshe was five, but when her
parents married, they said, ifwe're going to have a
disagreement, these are therules.
(15:55):
And that's where the title camefrom.
And the way that was done was.
Just really fantastic and mademe think, this is a way that I
can talk about my brother.
I can talk about what happenedto Geoff, but not actually, I
can only, I can reveal as muchas I want to.
And I made it a rule that I wasnever going to say his cause of
death in the book.
(16:16):
I didn't mind saying it topeople, but not many people.
because I didn't want it to,taint the work.
So that was the only thingpeople would remember when they
were looking at it.
So that was a good way of givingme control as well.
I don't have to tell youbecause, it's, you don't need to
know thing.
So it gave all the control tome.
Dr. Dean (16:36):
Yeah, I love that.
I find it interesting, too,that, you found comfort in him
holding your hand in your grieffor your grandfather.
And then it sounds like you werefinding comfort in his hand for
grief for him.
Dawn Rodgers (16:52):
Yeah, I've never thought of it, like that.
But yes, I think it was justsuch a strong memory.
And I think when you losesomeone, especially as time goes
by, one of the hardest things isforgetting what they look like,
which is why photography is soimportant.
It's, it's like a kind ofwormhole, isn't it?
to the past and, the things youremember and associated around
(17:14):
photographs are not, I think youtend to remember the photograph,
but it can also trigger aconversation.
So when I look at these images,I do remember events, around it.
and also, our memories are quitefallible, aren't they as well?
Dr. Dean (17:27):
Absolutely.
Dawn Rodgers (17:28):
So sometimes what we think we remember is not
necessarily what we do, but itwas.
It allowed me to go back andreally look at all these
photographs and go back into mypast in a really safe way.
Again, it was about control.
And I think a lot of thatcontrolling thing comes from the
fact that this massive eventhappened and I couldn't, control
(17:48):
it.
I wasn't even there.
So it was, quite, I feltterrible that I wasn't there to
do something for quite a longtime, which again is.
Gosh, it's so unproductive and,I couldn't have done anything
even if I had been there.
I wouldn't have been at home.
I would have been, because I hadmy daughter, my husband, we were
living elsewhere at that point.
yeah, so I these photographs didgive me comfort.
(18:10):
They allowed me to go back to atime when we were together and
to really remember funny things,sad things, happy things.
I don't remember fighting.
with my brother particularly atall, like siblings do.
Occasionally we'd havedisagreements like any sibling,
but not really.
We were just very close to eachother.
Dr. Dean (18:26):
hmm.
I know in the book that youmentioned, you didn't want to
share how he died.
Do you want to share that withus?
Dawn Rodgers (18:34):
Yeah.
I'm happy to share that here inthis context.
my brother was, was murdered.
So that comes with such aloaded, thing.
So much weight.
I don't even know how to say it.
it's very loaded.
And so when people ask, at onepoint when people used to ask me
that I would refuse to answer,
Dr. Dean (18:54):
Mm hmm.
Dawn Rodgers (18:55):
because of their reaction to it.
But now I've got the point ofview that if you ask me and I
tell you, then you've got todeal with that.
with what, yeah, with what Isay.
I don't go into it.
I wouldn't share the details ofit, but that is a huge thing to
happen.
when it did happen, my husband,was actually in Weymouth at the
(19:15):
time, so had to come To collectme and had to tell me.
So I was just woken up in themiddle of the night and my
father was injured as well atthe same time.
So yeah, it's not an easy thingto talk about and not an easy
thing to process.
And I think at that point.
And the reason I mentioned mydaughter earlier was that at
(19:36):
that point I'd been recoveringfrom postnatal depression.
I'd really struggled with it andI was feeling really good and
really well.
And I think I just shut myselfdown at that point and thought,
I'm not going to feel anything.
I can't feel anything.
that's another reason why Ididn't think about it.
I think I just couldn't feellike I'd felt previously having
to deal with the previous sortof experience.
Dr. Dean (19:59):
It's the funny thing about trying to shut down
emotions and, reactions andgrief is that they find their
way to come out eventually.
Dawn Rodgers (20:06):
yeah.
And they do, and they did, andthey came out, for me, in this
form of anxiety, of trying tocontrol every single situation,
scenario, which I wasn't awareof for many, for a long time.
Not all the time, it would comeand go,
Dr. Dean (20:21):
Yeah.
What I also love about whatyou're doing is there are
different ways of grieving.
A lot of people think I have totalk about it to feel better.
and I've posted about this onsocial media or talked about it.
I'll probably put something inthe show notes about it too.
But there are absolutely ways ofgrieving.
that are a little bit moreinstrumental and doing things
(20:43):
like engaging in photography orphysical activity or, and so
what I love is that you'renormalizing.
I don't have to talk about this.
I can't put this into words, butI can very much process this
visually.
So thank you.
I don't know if you have otherthoughts on that.
Dawn Rodgers (20:59):
Yeah, because I think, like you say, I think we
feel obliged to, I think that'swhat made me stop talking about
it.
I felt like I owed people anexplanation as to what had
happened, but actually, no, Idon't.
I didn't owe anyone anexplanation about it.
I had some really thoughtlesscomments, and Funnily enough, I
was talking to my mother thismorning about our conversation
today, and we were both saying,we both experienced people that
(21:22):
just avoided us because theydidn't want to talk about it to
us.
you would meet them and go, oh,by the way, here's this terrible
thing, and I'm going to tell youall about it.
And, I didn't want to speakabout it, and I'm not that kind
of person, really, I'm quite aprivate person, ironically.
I, By not having to speak aboutit, I don't have to go away and
examine, because that's part ofthe sort of anxiety thing, I
don't have to go away and reexamine everything I've said in
(21:43):
my head.
It was weird, I will say, doingthe book, the very first book I
made, and then the first one Isold, that felt very strange.
And then, I had to rationaliseit by the person it went to I
knew would really value it asboth as an object and the story
that was in it.
And so that kind of put it topeace a little bit.
(22:06):
And then making this book andthen selling it, it's weird,
it's a very strange thing.
that's the whole purpose of artis that you make a book and, or
you make a piece of artwork andthe hope is that somebody else
may want it and you might sellit to them or you might not, I
don't know.
It was really odd and there wasa lot of complex feelings tied
up in the whole creation of it.
(22:26):
But the main thing was I was incontrol of all that.
if I didn't want to sell it, Ididn't have to.
If I didn't want to talk aboutanything, I didn't have to.
It was just there.
It was in this thing, but Idon't know.
I've had such a positiveresponse, mainly from other
siblings that have contacted me,people who, some people I've met
and spoken to and formedfriendships with, because of it.
(22:50):
So it, it gave me the powerback.
It gave me the right to decidewhat I said and when I said it.
And I think that was the mostimportant thing that's come out
of making it.
And also, I think artwork isquite a good way, no matter,
people often think of artwork ashaving to be a certain thing, a
certain standard or a certainthing, but it's such a good way,
(23:11):
even if you just writeeverything down and then set
fire to it, or you somehow getyour feelings out and down in
some way, whatever way that is.
I just think it's reallypositive and you're always in
control of it.
You don't have to do anythingwith it or whatever.
Dr. Dean (23:26):
Yeah, I love that.
it's interesting because in mywork with patients that are
struggling with anxiety, thisidea of control is so present,
but I think that's obviouslytrue in grief as well.
Like we want to be able tocontrol things and when we
can't, the emotions and otherresponses, physical or whatever,
catch us off guard.
(23:48):
I like that you were able totake control and still process
your, experience.
Dawn Rodgers (23:53):
the master's degree I did was online because
of the, it's online anyway, butwith the pandemic it was more,
more online than it had been.
And you create these sort ofseminar groups you build a trust
with the people.
So you're talking about yourwork as a piece of artwork.
So that was a really great wayfor me to talk about it.
Cause I could make it academicand I could read texts and I
(24:16):
could look at otherphotographers that have done it.
And I could create this languagethat was a little bit removed
that allowed me to then veryslowly, process it.
and I read a book, which Iwouldn't unless you're really
into photographic theory, youwouldn't want to read it, but it
was by Roland Barthes and it'sCameron Lucida, but there is
(24:38):
another book called The MorningDiaries where basically the
first book is about the death ofhis mother and photography's
relationship to that, but thenthis morning diaries is just a
few sentences when he just saystoday, I am so desperately sad.
And so he processes that.
I mean, that's been publishedafter his death, but it was, he
(24:59):
would just reveal these smallamounts of information to
himself.
So all this language allowed meto then, in return, I was able
to reveal small amounts ofinformation.
And as the time went on, I thencould talk about it.
And I've wrapped it up inmythology as well to make it a
little bit easier.
So as part of it, I was lookinga lot at Welsh mythology,
(25:23):
because I'm not a religiousperson, I have deep respect for
everyone else's beliefs, but I'mnot.
And but this Welsh, mythology,sort of told these sort of sagas
and stories.
And one of the things that cameout of it was this thing called
the other place.
And it's just another dimension.
So it goes back to my brotherand my love of science fiction
(25:44):
in a way, but it, they werelike, there are portals to the
other place all over the Englishcountryside and in Wales.
And, so I then started walkingas a way of, Kind of working
through it and I could go backto places where we've been as
children and I'd read abeautiful book by Robert
McFarlane and he talked abouthow we can tread memory into the
(26:06):
earth and we leave our presencebehind.
And so I would go back to theseplaces, there'd be a real like
comfort in the fact that we'dbeen there together and there
was a little bit of both of us.
left behind in that space fromour footsteps wearing a pathway.
so all of these sort of littlemetaphors and things all helped
me to keep processing my griefand over, over this sort of two
(26:30):
or three year period to thepoint now where I can have this
sort of conversation.
Dr. Dean (26:36):
Yeah.
Thank you.
This reminds me of last year.
I went to this conference.
I'm very excited because I'mgoing back It's on death dying
and bereavement and I went to aworkshop there and they had us
for homework that evening justwalk around the city that we
were in and take photographs ofsomething that reminded us of
(26:56):
our loss and It was supermeaningful to do.
I haven't really done it muchsince a few times, but it sounds
like that is what your bookreally was.
Yeah,definately.
I used to find that part of theprocess
Dawn Rodgers (27:13):
was I had to absorb myself, had to get into a
certain mindset to get into, tobe able to take the photographs.
And it was almost likeprojecting my grief through the
camera onto the landscape or,and vice versa.
And sometimes when you go tothese places, they are some are
really remote.
(27:33):
Some weren't, but you, becomequite peaceful.
I found that I was becomingquite peaceful.
they're often Iron Age sites,Dorset's full of them, standing
stones and barrows.
And like when I was in theseplaces, I'd be like, Oh, I can
see why this, stone circle wasbuilt here.
If you take away all thefarmer's fields and you've just
got this amazing view out tosea.
(27:55):
and so there was a sort ofthought process there where I
was thinking about it andprocessing it.
And I suppose just letting it gointo the environment.
So walking is, became reallyimportant.
And I would then just go andsit.
And then I had a few kind ofexperiences where like wildlife,
because you're so still, I'd beso still in these environments
(28:18):
that I would think like rabbitsand hares.
I had two experiences with ahare, where they just came out
of nowhere and it jumped over afence and it looked at me and I
looked at him or her, I lookedat them and they like we all,
they, then they ran away.
And then there's an amazingplace here in, not far from
Berkshire, it's called the,Uffington White Horse.
(28:40):
And if anyone, ever gets achance to go there or see it,
it's just this amazing chalkwhite horse.
But I went there one day on myown in the week.
So there's no visitors.
And again, I saw a hare.
So this hare in a strange way,Came to symbolize my brother.
And I felt like he was then likevery with me, when I was out
taking these photos and then in,in a way, obviously he was in
(29:01):
here, with me as I went out, butit, an amazing way to.
To process, feelings, to justget outside and reconnect with
nature became very important tome, and, to be able to do that
because you can just leave itall out there.
And in my case, I let it all outand then photographed it and
then took it back home andprocessed it in another way.
(29:23):
But so it did, it was an amazingthing.
I'm really, I'm so glad I didit.
I don't think I would be where Iam now.
Dr. Dean (29:30):
Yeah.
I'm glad that you were able todo that too.
It sounds like you, obviouslywith the hare, had that
connection with your brother.
Do you feel like you have anongoing relationship with him?
Dawn Rodgers (29:46):
I'm not quite sure in what way you mean, but he's
always there in my thoughts nowin a more peaceful way.
And I think I can talk about himand our relationship because I
couldn't before.
So maybe yes, in that way.
Yes.
But I do feel like, I can go andvisit him.
And so that I do occasionallywhen I go home to my parents go
(30:10):
to the crematorium where hisashes are interned and I'll go
and visit him.
that's how I see it.
And I'm, might have a littlechat.
I don't go very regular.
One time I was going quiteoften, but, occasionally my mum
will always on key dates.
put, flowers and things.
And I always think about him,because he died on Remembrance
(30:30):
Sunday, it's very hard to, orRemembrance Day, sorry, in the
UK, it's extremely hard to notremember because you're
surrounded by compulsoryremembrance, it feels like to
me, and So it's very difficult.
but it does mean that rememberhim, remembering him is now not
painful in the way that it was.
(30:51):
And it, the actual point of hisdeath will always be difficult,
but I can now remember all theother stuff.
it's not tainted by that onemoment.
Now I've been able to bring backall these really lovely memories
about him and remember themrather than the actual point of
his death.
Dr. Dean (31:10):
Thank you.
I think for a lot of our guestsand listeners, that's been
something many of them andmyself are a lot earlier in the
grief process and thinking aboutsometimes you don't want to
remember.
of course you don't want toremember how they died, but
sometimes that's where you getstuck.
So thank you for sharing yourperspective on that.
Dawn Rodgers (31:29):
yeah, I definitely agree with that.
I think you can get stuck.
I think I definitely got stuckbefore that.
At that point, I couldn't getpast that.
it was so big.
And I think because that moment,had to last a whole year because
of the event where we wentthrough all kinds of legal
processes.
So you weren't allowed to moveon for a, at all, to any kind of
(31:51):
space or place it felt like.
So you were a bit stuck in thatmoment and that was very hard.
Dr. Dean (31:57):
hmm.
You have a daughter.
Do you have other children?
Dawn Rodgers (32:01):
No, I just have my one lovely daughter, Jasmine.
Dr. Dean (32:04):
Have you shared with Jasmine about your brother?
Dawn Rodgers (32:09):
no, do you know, that's funny enough you saying,
I haven't actually, she knowsabout him and I do refer to it,
but I wouldn't say I'd sit downand have a conversation with her
about it.
I'm not sure why, maybe that'sthe next thing.
I think because for her, he is.
a very abstract figure becauseshe was three when he died.
(32:30):
So she has no memory of him atall.
And he did used to babysit forher, look after her.
And when we were talking about,things that you are taking, that
are taken from you, it's that'sanother relationship in some
ways, I know that have beentaken from her was this
relationship with her uncle.
So no, I don't, it's funny.
I haven't really thought aboutthat at all.
(32:51):
So no, I don't think.
Dr. Dean (32:53):
It's interesting because I can relate with her on
that.
My, father's brother wasmurdered in Italy before they
came here.
And it wasn't until I lost mybrother that I really started
asking more questions about myuncle.
I knew the story and I knew thatmy dad's brother had been
murdered, but I didn't reallyask questions.
(33:14):
Because it feels like thismythic, like you said, mythical
figure.
Dawn Rodgers (33:17):
Yeah, I think, when she was younger, it didn't
feel appropriate to talk aboutit with, and then I think it
becomes habit, doesn't it?
So you don't and it might besomething she asked me about at
some point later.
obviously I've talked about thebook to her.
and she knows what that's allabout, but again, that's just a
bit more abstract.
it's a piece of artwork.
She's used to me doing that, ifthat makes sense.
(33:39):
Like throughout her life, I'vealways made work.
so yeah, gosh, yeah.
I've never, it's maybe making methink I've never really spoken
to them.
Dr. Dean (33:50):
What would you say to him now about where you've come
since that time?
Dawn Rodgers (33:56):
Well, I think he'd probably be slightly embarrassed
by the fact I've made, a bookabout him So I probably wanna
talk to him about that.
I, to check he was okay withthat.
But then part of me knows thathe would,'cause he is such a
massive supporter of me, doingart when it wasn't necessarily,
approved of, I think growing upin there.
(34:16):
the 80s.
It's all about, leave school,get a job.
this is what you're going to do.
It's very prescribed for womenparticularly.
so my brother was always a hugesupporter of me doing my
artwork.
so yeah, I'd like to show him,I'd like to have a little chat
about it and see if he'd want tochange anything.
And I don't know, that'd bereally nice to just catch up
with him and find out how he'sbeen what he's been up to.
(34:40):
if that was a possibility to goback to, to talk to him now, as
he would be, it's, I think,gosh, he'd probably be really
horrified because I'm quite oldnow and he'd be still 22.
So the last time he saw me, Iwas 24, look very different.
I had, my hair wasn't white fora start, but yeah.
So it's it'd be quite a nicething, I think, quite a joyful
(35:00):
thing.
I'm not sure what we'd have acoffee or something
Dr. Dean (35:04):
Yeah,
Dawn Rodgers (35:05):
went.
Dr. Dean (35:07):
What do you miss most?
Dawn Rodgers (35:09):
I think it's the friendship.
that was the thing we weredeveloping, as like the
friendship of young adults,starting at our adult lives and
having our families.
And, I do feel, I used to feelreally envious of seeing people
with their brothers, and, beingat their weddings or, I noticed
(35:31):
these, all these big familyevents, but just spending time
with them and that friendshipand that companionship.
And, I've got friends now whohave siblings and the closeness,
just all of those things,really.
I think that's what I reallymiss.
And, Yeah, we used to play, weused to play Dungeons and
Dragons together.
That was one of the things wedid as a young adults.
(35:52):
And I kind of missed that.
They were always fun evenings.
We ate a lot of snacks when wedid that.
It was good.
Dr. Dean (35:58):
where can our listeners find your book and
Dawn Rodgers (36:02):
if they want to, see it, it is on, it's on my
website, that, so the actualbook to buy is on the website.
If they go to my Instagramthough, they can follow the
journey of development and howit's got to where it is.
And there are lots of examplesof all the photography I've done
and my thought processes are allthere.
And that's the best place to seeit really is on Instagram.
(36:23):
on my website, I do have a blog,which if you go back to the
beginning, explains how I got togot to where it is now in an
academic way.
but it's an easy read.
so yeah, if you said my websitewill eventually be updated with
the whole story, the Kickstarterhad that kind of, the talk, the,
the sort of beginning of it onit as well, and I think that is
(36:44):
still public.
if people find that they canactually read that as well.
So yeah.
Dr. Dean (36:49):
I'll put those links in the show
Dawn Rodgers (36:51):
Thank you.
Dr. Dean (36:52):
You're welcome.
Thank you for sharing that.
Are there things that you wishyou knew 30 years ago that
you've had to learn over the 30years for those of us that
aren't out that far?
Dawn Rodgers (37:04):
Yeah, I think, I wish I had just spoken about him
more.
I think it would be, I'd havemore, probably more memories
now.
I think the fact that I've.
not really spoken about it andnot thought about it means you
forget things.
And I think if I'd that was oneof the joys of doing the project
was, going through the photoswith my mum and my mum
remembering stuff.
And I was talking about it andfinding out things.
(37:27):
And I think I'd be more openabout it and less afraid of what
other people might think.
I think that's really hard whenyou're young.
perhaps to process that.
I think I would have taught, ifI could have connected with
other siblings, I think I wouldlove to have done that.
And it means so much to me nowwhen people contact me, to talk
(37:49):
to them about their brothers ortheir sisters.
I had a massive connection, withsomeone called Megan, who, she
was the first person I reallyspoke to it about and because of
the circumstance of her ownbrother's passing.
we really connected and it was,and it just felt such relief.
To talk to her and I'd neverhad, and I really wish I had
(38:12):
been able to do that.
I have a really dear friend whoI think without her probably
would've gone a bit mad, who waswho I could talk to, but I think
I just needed to relax about itall a bit.
which is really hard though,isn't it?
You're in this situation whereyou're so upset and I just
couldn't manage that and I thinkI should have just allowed that
to, to happen.
(38:33):
And I think probably spoken tosomeone about it much.
it sounds ridiculous and whatgot me really got me started on
the journey was I had a really,I'm a big dog lover and I had a
really beloved Labrador thatdied very dramatically and
suddenly in front of me and mymum rang me at the exact moment
(38:55):
and it was a massive trigger.
It triggered everything back tothe beginning and that was the
beginning of the journey ofrecovery.
And in fact, I met.
The lady who had been counselingme recently to give her a copy
of the book and I said to her Ithink that was my dog's last
gift to me.
That makes me really feel sadactually when I talk about that
(39:16):
because he allowed me to thenbegin the conversation, begin
the journey to being properlyfeeling healed about the whole
event.
So it was just I don't know,it's very, I'm so locked down
about my brother emotionallythat I think that event allowed
me to
Dr. Dean (39:34):
Mhm.
Dawn Rodgers (39:34):
out.
Dr. Dean (39:35):
You mentioned earlier that you were perceived as just
the sibling in that, in thoseearly days.
I wonder if that also impactedhow you shut down, even with
your parents or,
Dawn Rodgers (39:47):
yeah, I think, and that's not, I have to stress
that, it's not come from myparents at all, it's
Dr. Dean (39:53):
oh, good, good.
Dawn Rodgers (39:55):
It's just like societal, I think, but it did, I
think it did, I felt I wasn'taligned.
This could be completelyimagined.
I don't know.
But I really felt that I wasn'tallowed to be sad because I was
a sibling, and that I was thereto support everyone else and to
help them, cope with their griefand to be there for them.
(40:18):
And I didn't feel like there wasa space for me to, to be able to
grieve.
when I'm, when I'm sitting heretalking to you now and
remembering all sorts of.
things that are reallyupsetting.
but I couldn't really share themwith anyone.
And I just, it was all me.
It was all in this.
I was the one that put up thebarriers, I think.
(40:39):
but I don't remember anyoneasking me if I was okay, but
they might've done.
It might be that I just wasn'tready to hear it.
So.
It's not about placing blame onanyone or anything, but I did
feel like I, it wasn't, I, Iwasn't his partner.
I wasn't his parent.
I was his sister and I somehowfelt like I didn't have a space
(41:00):
to be able to grieve
Dr. Dean (41:04):
I don't think you're imagining that, because that's
been a pretty common theme withall of our guests and myself and
some of my patients, that's justunfortunately how society often
sees siblings until it happensto them.
And I don't think it's harmful,like you said, I don't think,
people are not asking you.
it's not intentional.
(41:24):
We just don't really think aboutthe sibling relationship in the
same way that it actually hasmeaning.
Dawn Rodgers (41:31):
I think as well, people Don't think there's a
sort of politeness maybe in theUK where people don't ask you
about those things.
They don't want to upset you.
Whereas actually you might wantto be upset or you might, I
might just, in the early days, Ijust wanted to like, when people
were talking, this is a reallyclear memory.
When people were talking abouttheir brothers and I would go,
(41:54):
Oh yeah, my brother used to dothat.
You just hear the silence.
It was like, like I dropped thebiggest clanger in the room.
And so that also stopped me fromtalking about him and.
It made me quite angry atpoints, but it just became
easier just to save otherpeople's discomfort.
and then maybe I'm a product ofmy generation, but all about not
(42:16):
upsetting anyone else.
So in the end, I just stoppedtalking about it because it
clearly upset other people tothink that might be a
possibility, for them, when youstart talking about someone in
the past tense and in thecircumstances, my, my brother's
death.
Yeah, it was really difficult.
If I met someone, this wasreally fascinating, her
experience.
So her brother died the exactsame year as mine.
(42:39):
Few months apart, but we wereboth had the same experience
that we were both at universitywhere people went, just need to
get this bit done really, if youcan just get on and do it.
And just like this kind ofpressure to like finish,
whereas, put that thing behindyou, this really big event
that's happened to you, likejust forget that and let's just
get on with doing your degree.
And it, and I don't think theymeant anything by it.
(43:01):
I'm not going to mentionanyone's name, but I don't think
they meant anything by it.
at all, but people just didn'tknow how to process that.
Whereas now, obviously, thatexperience would be completely
different for any, anybody of myage that was studying at the
time.
the support would be there, butat that time it was like, let's
just forget this and crack onand get your degree done.
(43:23):
So yeah, I made it through tothe end amazingly.
Dr. Dean (43:26):
I'm glad to hear that.
Do you have any favoritememories that you want to share
with us?
Dawn Rodgers (43:32):
Yeah, I think some of my favorites are Christmas
type memories, and being the onethat constantly woke my brother
up going, is it time to get up?
waiting for Christmas morningand constantly waiting, for him.
And just, there's one reallyclear memory and it's in one of
the first books that I made andMy brother and I were putting up
(43:57):
Christmas decorations with myfather and he obviously clearly
was ready for us to go to bed.
I don't know how late it was.
And he started going, Oh mygoodness.
Can you see?
Look, I can see Santa over thereon the rooftop.
And he literally convinced usboth that we could, see Santa on
the rooftop.
So we had to go to bed in casehe didn't come.
(44:18):
We were very young.
I mean, I think I was probablyonly about four or five when
that happened.
And so my brother would havebeen about two or three, I think
I was five.
But yeah, he totally convincedus it was time for us to go to
bed.
So we did.
And that, that really stays withme.
That always makes me chucklewhen I think about it.
Dr. Dean (44:38):
thank you for sharing that.
that's charming.
Imagining you as a child
Dawn Rodgers (44:44):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (44:44):
looking out The window for Santa.
Dawn Rodgers (44:46):
fishing.
Dr. Dean (44:47):
Fishing?
Dawn Rodgers (44:48):
Yeah.
My brother was a huge fan offishing and I remember him
trying to teach me to fish.
That was the other one that wasvery bad at it.
Dr. Dean (44:56):
Do you try now?
Dawn Rodgers (44:57):
a, Oh, no.
Goodness.
No I don't I'll leave that tohim.
Dr. Dean (45:03):
He tried to teach you though.
Dawn Rodgers (45:05):
he did try to teach me.
we did go out.
so we were very lucky becauseliving in Dorset, when we were
young, youngsters, weren't quiteteenagers, but we had to have a
lot of freedom to, to roamaround.
And we'd often go down to thebeach and, so my brother would
go fishing.
So one day I went with him andwas trying to get him to teach
me.
(45:26):
I think I managed to cast a lineeventually, but yeah, it wasn't
very good.
I have done it since than myhusband actually.
but yeah, that any lessons I hadfrom the past didn't help them
either.
Dr. Dean (45:39):
All right.
Was there anything else that youwanted to share or talk about
today that we didn't talk aboutyet?
Dawn Rodgers (45:44):
No, I I suppose just anyone who's listening to
this, there, there are peopleout there that are they will be
willing to listen and supportyou.
And, just, as, and when youfeel, don't feel like this
pressure to have to move on inyour grief until you're really
ready for it.
(46:05):
I think that would be thebiggest thing and don't do what
I didn't lock it down for solong.
cause it does it, I haveforgotten lots of things I think
because of that, which is ashame.
Dr. Dean (46:17):
Thank you for that actually leads me to one other
question.
I know it's slightly differentthere in the UK But it sounds
like you've had a incrediblegrief counselor to help you.
Dawn Rodgers (46:29):
Yeah, I was really lucky.
So I, I started having, so whenthe big event happened with my
dog, I started having my anxietyjust went through the roof and
I'm very, I was very lucky thatI had access to free counseling,
which is not always the case,but the counselor I had.
I went to talk to her aboutanxiety and ended up talking
(46:52):
about my brother all the time.
and I could see her as and when,even when we were in lockdown, I
could see her remotely.
it, it was so strange.
I think it was just so the righttime.
It didn't, it allowed me tounderstand that grief was just
this thing that was like, veryorganic and it didn't have to
(47:12):
follow a line and that it's, nowonder you felt anxious.
this thing happened and justhelped me to gain perspective
about it all and then being ableto process it through, artwork.
So I, I do sometimes just get intouch and not for counselling,
just to let her know when I madethe book and when I finished
that, I did get in touch thereand just to let her know that,
(47:34):
because I felt she was quiteinstrumental in helping me just
think and reflect on things, aswell.
So I just wanted her to knowthat it came out really well.
It was really helpful and thatit just, yeah, it was, I don't
know, it just felt all okay.
It all feels all okay now.
Dr. Dean (47:52):
Yeah thank you for that and congratulations on the
book.
Dawn Rodgers (47:57):
Thank you very much.
Dr. Dean (47:58):
You're welcome.
Thanks for chatting with metoday as well.
Dawn Rodgers (48:02):
It's been my pleasure.
It's been lovely.
Dr. Dean (48:04):
/Thank you so much for listening.
Our theme song was written byJoe Mylward and Brian Dean and
was performed by Fuji Sounds(feat.
MYLWD.).
If you would like moreinformation on The Broken Pack™,
go to our website,thebrokenpack.
com.
Be sure to sign up for ournewsletter, Wild Grief™, and to
learn about opportunities andreceive exclusive information
and content, as well as grievingtips for subscribers.
(48:26):
Information on that, our socialmedia and on our guest can be
found in the show notes whereveryou get your podcasts.
Please like, follow, rate,subscribe, and share.
Thanks again.
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