May 6, 2024 • 70 mins
In this episode, of The Broken Pack: Stories of Adult Sibling Loss, Dr. Dean speaks with Randye, a surviving sibling, who shares her deeply personal story of losing her brother Mitch to cancer over 45 years ago. Her experience challenges the notion that grief fades with time, highlighting the enduring nature of sibling loss and its profound lifelong impact on surviving siblings.
Randye speaks to the ways loss transforms us while emphasizing the unbreakable bond that persists between siblings, even beyond death. This episode offers a unique perspective on grief, resilience, and the transformative power of love, making it essential listening for surviving siblings, young adult cancer support networks, and anyone seeking understanding about the complexities of grief - especially the disenfranchised loss of a sibling and anticipatory grief that Randye experienced with many of her losses including her brother, parents, and husband.
To learn more about Randye, her book, her writing, and other work, or to contact her, please visit her website: https://randyesundelwrites.com/.
Her Facebook page is https://www.facebook.com/randye.sundel/
On instagram, Randye is found at @randyesundel
Other links mentioned in this episode:
Cancer Support Community (formerly Gilda's Club): https://www.cancersupportcommunity.org/
If you would like more information or to share your own adult sibling loss story, please contact me, Dr. Angela Dean, at contact@thebrokenpack.com or go to our website, thebrokenpack.com.
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Thank you!
Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT
Credits:
The Broken Pack™ Podcast is produced by 27 Elephants Media
"If Tomorrow Starts Without Me" © ℗ 2023, 2024
Written by Joe Mylward and Brian Dean
Performed by Fuji Sounds (feat. MYLWD.)
Licensed for use by The Broken Pack™
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Dean (00:12):
Hello and welcome to the Broken Pack, a podcast
focused on giving adultsurvivors of sibling loss, a
platform to share their storiesand to be heard.
Something that many sibling losssurvivors state that they never
have had.
sibling loss is misunderstood.
The broken Pack exists to changethat and to support survivors.
(00:32):
I'm your host, Dr.
Angela Dean.
In today's episode I spoke withauthor, actress, and lyricist
Randyee Sundel.
Randyee has experienced muchloss in her life, including the
loss of her brother Mitch fromcancer nearly 45 years ago.
We discussed how grief hasshaped her and how she navigated
(00:53):
her parents illnesses and lossalone without her brother.
This is a concern so manygrieving siblings have and
anticipate.
Randye has been writing a memoirof living, loving, and loss, and
we also discussed how theproject has been a way to
continue her process and livewith her grief of many losses,
including the loss of herbrother Mitch.
(01:14):
Our conversation inspired me,and I hope it does you as well.
All right.
welcome to the show, Randye.
I was wondering how you want tointroduce yourself to myself and
our listeners.
Randye Sundel (01:34):
Thank you, Angela.
I am Randye Sundel.
I am an author, an actress, alyricist, and I have been a New
Yorker most of my life.
I am currently living inConnecticut.
I have been a sister, adaughter, and a wife, and my
(01:59):
only sibling, my parents, and myhusband are all gone.
And I was a caregiver to all ofthem, either directly or
indirectly, starting with mybrother Mitch.
Mitch died of Hodgkin's disease45 years ago next month,
Dr. Dean (02:16):
oh,wow
Randye Sundel (02:17):
at the age of 26.
Dr. Dean (02:20):
mm hmm
Randye Sundel (02:21):
And I am writing my memoir.
Sibling grief and the impact ofit is really at the core of the
book, which is called Role of aLifetime.
Dr. Dean (02:33):
Oh, I love the title.
Randye Sundel (02:35):
Thank you.
Dr. Dean (02:37):
And you've had quite a bit of loss.
I'm sorry that you've had thatmuch loss and that much
caregiving.
It sounds like what you'reexamining in your book is how
it's affected you overall.
Randye Sundel (02:47):
Absolutely, because it really does impact
every aspect of your life.
It has to, because
Dr. Dean (02:55):
Yeah,
Randye Sundel (02:56):
you change of necessity,
Dr. Dean (03:01):
Yeah.
So what would you like us toknow about Mitch?
Randye Sundel (03:04):
Mitch.
Mitch was probably the mostalive person I've ever known.
He was the whole package.
He was good looking.
He was super smart, especiallyin math, which was my nemesis.
He was an exceptional athlete.
He was funny.
(03:25):
He was caring.
And he In his 26 short years, hereally lived life to the
fullest.
He was the cool kid in highschool.
I still have a relationship withsome of his friends from those
days and they describe him as alightning rod.
(03:45):
My brother brought disparatepeople together, people who
would never have connected onany level,
Dr. Dean (03:52):
hmm.
Randye Sundel (03:52):
But, he brought them together and I think Mitch
was always finding worthiness inpeople that sometimes didn't
find it in themselves.
And I think, in his short life,I think he made a huge
contribution to helping people.
(04:13):
After his funeral, there was acolleague who came up to me and
said that she was strugglingwith drugs.
And that my brother said to her,"You're better than this, you
deserve better than this." Shesaid,"And the fact that he
showed me that concern and toldme I was better than the life I
(04:39):
was living,"she said,"I turnedmy life around and I owe that.
And I can't believe he's gone
Dr. Dean (04:47):
hmm.
Randye Sundel (04:47):
because it might have been me." So that tells you
who he was.
Dr. Dean (04:54):
hmm.
Mm hmm.
Sounds like he cared deeplyabout other people.
Randye Sundel (04:58):
Yes, he did.
That's how we grew up.
We grew up in a family where, wewere taught to take care of each
other.
Dr. Dean (05:06):
mmhmm
Randye Sundel (05:06):
That was the value.
And I think sometimes it got alittle muddied because we were
so busy trying to protect eachother that we didn't always get
what we needed.
Dr. Dean (05:18):
What do you mean?
Randye Sundel (05:19):
Because we made assumptions as to what, the
other one in the family needed,and we acted on that, as opposed
to asking what we needed
Dr. Dean (05:31):
Mm hmm.
Randye Sundel (05:32):
and telling others.
what we needed.
And so that was a long journeyfor me, being able to validate
my needs because I was so busytaking care of all my family
members
Dr. Dean (05:47):
mmmhmm
Randye Sundel (05:47):
and what I thought they needed from me.
Dr. Dean (05:51):
That is so common with caregivers for sure, that they
put everyone else's needs aheadof themselves, which you have to
do in the caregiving role, butthen somehow it sounds like
you've learned to do that forthe other parts of your life
too.
Randye Sundel (06:05):
Yes.
it's been a journey.
I'm still on it, but I'm stilllearning.
With my brother, The reason Ibecame his caregiver initially
was that my parents had retiredto Florida.
They had been living in NewYork.
And when my brother wasdiagnosed, I was with him doing
(06:29):
all of that because, One of hisfriend's fathers, who was a
pharmacist, had called to myattention that Mitch was
lethargic, which was never aword you'd use to describe him.
He said he was going to takeMitch to have a biopsy done.
I was newly married.
I was married less than twoyears.
(06:50):
And I took it from there.
When we got the diagnosis, whichtook some time, Mitch said,"I
need you to not tell mom anddad.
Not now
Dr. Dean (07:01):
Hmm.
Mm
Randye Sundel (07:02):
"not now." And I said,"How can I do that?" And he
said, They just retired.
This is their time.
And this will devastate them.
And frankly, I need time to cometo terms with what's happening
to me." He was all of 23.
And I was three and a half yearsolder.
(07:25):
I didn't realize, my choice waseither to protect him and lie to
my parents.
Or betray him and tell myparents the truth, which is an
impossible decision.
Dr. Dean (07:37):
Right.
Randye Sundel (07:38):
I decided he was the one who was ill and I would
protect him.
And I didn't realize all theimplications of that because
that meant that I was in chargeof his care.
I was in charge of dealing withthe doctors and paying his
medical bills.
He was one month shy of havingcoverage at his job.
(08:01):
He was, not quite a year out ofcollege.
it was very difficult.
I was just keeping everything tomyself.
I went down to visit my parentswith my husband, because we had
planned that, and I couldn'ttell them.
I had to look at them.
I had to smile at them.
(08:21):
And not tell them what was goingon with their son.
Dr. Dean (08:26):
I wonder if you felt put on the spot if they asked
how he was doing.
Randye Sundel (08:31):
Well, you know, in those years, there were no
cell phones or anything.
And my brother was very clever.
And he would call my parentsfrom a landline, which is all we
had.
And he would say, I'll give youa call.
Don't call me because I'm goingskiing this weekend with my
friends.
(08:52):
And when I finally did tellthem, months later.
I flew down to tell them becausethe oncologist was concerned
that it had spread, and I saidto Mitch,"I've done everything I
could do for you, but I can'tlet Mom and Dad know the first
(09:13):
thing that they learn is thatyou're gone," because he was
going to have to start chemo andhe was really weak.
And Mitch said,"No, thank you.
Thank you." And I just went downthere and I had to tell them
what had been going on.
And my mother's going, no, he'sbeen skiing.
I said, no, Mom.
(09:34):
he's been telling you that and,and I brought them up and I
said, you can respond any wayyou want outside his hospital
room, but in that room, you havegot to hold it together because
his worst fear was not that hehad cancer.
His worst fear is what hiscancer would do to you.
(09:55):
And they were amazing.
And I was so relieved to knowthat I wasn't alone.
Dr. Dean (10:03):
He had their support through it.
Yeah.
So that was the late 70s, early80s?
Randye Sundel (10:11):
That was, it was 76 when he was diagnosed.
He died in 79.
And, I had suffered amiscarriage during his illness.
And, my brother blamed himself.
Dr. Dean (10:27):
For your miscarriage?
Randye Sundel (10:28):
From a miscarriage, which was
preposterous, but that's how hefelt, and what he did in
response, sadly, was he pushedme away.
When I became pregnant again,and so there was a period when I
just didn't see him, and myparents were with him.
(10:50):
and it was really hard.
It was really hard to not bewith him and I regret that so
much.
I understand that he did thatbecause he was protecting me
and, and my fetus.
That's what I mean aboutprotecting without having a
(11:14):
conversation about what Ineeded, which was to spend time
with him.
Dr. Dean (11:19):
Yeah.
What was your relationship likewith him before all of that?
Randye Sundel (11:25):
We shared a bedroom from the time he was
able to sleep in a bed.
We were in a two bedroomapartment.
My parents had the masterbedroom and we shared a bedroom
until, the day I turned 13 andwe moved.
into a house.
As I got older, I changed to theliving room and we had one
(11:47):
bathroom.
My brother was very energetic.
He was one of the younger kidsand he wanted to do what
everybody else was doing and heprobably was able to do it
better.
than most of us.
And so he, he would just bargehis way in.
And I remember my parents had areally hard time getting a
(12:09):
babysitter who would come back asecond time because we were all
over each other.
And ultimately my cousin who wasa few years older and lived in
the neighborhood, she just hadno choice.
She was coerced into being oursitter.
And so That's what she did.
But we loved each other.
(12:29):
We were so clear about that.
And, we used to dress up.
I got him dressing up.
We were, Dale Evans, Roy Rogers,making, making our own with
brooms, running around theliving room and doing all of
that.
And we went to summer camptogether.
And, I remember the campdirector saying, Why aren't you
(12:51):
watching your brother?
He's playing in a championshiptennis tournament, and he was,
maybe all of 12, in hisdivision.
I said, my brother doesn't playtennis.
I had no idea.
Not only did he play, he wasamazing at it.
He ended up, head of the tennisteam in college and, he was
(13:11):
really a talented athlete andhad a roommate who had been
living with bone cancer, hadlost a leg to the cancer.
And somehow my brother got himup playing tennis.
I have no idea how he did that,but he did that.
and.
Mitch and I, we would just, we'dlaugh, we'd laugh at our
(13:33):
parents.
they wouldn't wait till visitingday to come see us.
And when we got the call,somebody came to get us off a
field or whatever, because myparents decided to come up, they
just had to see us.
All the other parents weredelighted to have, eight weeks
without their children, ourparents came up and so we go to
(13:56):
the chain link fence and we'dlook at each other like, Oh my
God, this is so embarrassing.
Dr. Dean (14:01):
Was it this, at college?
Randye Sundel (14:04):
No, this was summer back to summer camp,
when, yeah, and, I'm jumpingfrom venue to venue, but I'm
just thinking about all thesememories are rushing back.
It's 45 years.
since he's gone.
and so it gets a little muddysometimes.
Dr. Dean (14:22):
Yeah, I wonder what that'ss been like for you to
have these different memories.
Do you find that they clustertogether or there's a theme or
how has that been for you overthe years?
Randye Sundel (14:34):
I think the one theme since he's gone, is my
questioning who I am.
Because I was a sister for 26years.
I was honing my skills as asister.
I loved being a sister.
And I asked myself, am I still asister if I don't have a sibling
(14:58):
who's alive?
And I didn't know how to be asingle child because that's not
who I was.
And I wasn't sure what to makeof that.
And a few weeks after my brotherdied, I gave birth to a son, I
(15:20):
just, I was not prepared to takecare of a baby.
I was just reeling fromeverything that had happened,
and that's what I mean aboutimpacting every aspect of my
life.
And it was really difficult.
(15:41):
When he was in the hospital, myhusband, I made so many demands
on him.
I said, you have to come afterwork.
You have to meet me at thehospital.
And he goes, but I'm exhausted.
I'm tired.
I'm putting in a full day.
And I'd say, yeah, but mybrother has cancer.
(16:02):
My whole life became my brother.
And it was not fair to myhusband.
It just was so important to me.
It was the most important thingin my life.
I'll tell you a little funnystory.
When I was at college and he wasin high school and he was going
(16:23):
to come up to visit me.
And, I was dating somebody whowas not treating me all that
well.
And I finally worked up thenerve to break up with him.
And when I told him we werethrough, I said, And you're
never going to meet my brother.
(16:44):
And to me, that was the worstpunishment that I could give him
because To me, my brother wasthe most precious gift, I was
going to deprive him of that.
That's the feeling, that we hadfor each other.
Dr. Dean (17:03):
That's beautiful.
I love how you've described yourrelationship with him.
I feel like I have a little bitof a sense of who he is or was.
So you took on this caregivingrole for him and it sounds like
it lasted for a few years.
Randye Sundel (17:19):
Well, the caregiving lasted with me
exclusively, for, months.
because then I got too nervous,and, And I was fighting
bureaucracy.
I was, I had to get money to payhis bills and the system just
kept letting me down and I keptthinking, who's going to help
(17:45):
me, who's going to help me.
And I think that one of thereasons that I'm writing my
story and one of the reasonsthat I want to talk to you and
add my voice to yours and agrowing group of voices is that
as a society, we have to dobetter.
(18:07):
We have to do better.
We have to figure out how wehelp each other because sooner
or later, we're all going to bein a position.
We're either, we're caregiving,or we need a caregiver, or we're
grieving, or we want to helpsomebody through the mourning
process.
I think about it as, we've gotto all get more comfortable
(18:30):
being uncomfortable.
Dr. Dean (18:32):
That wording is so perfect.
Yes, we definitely have tobecome more comfortable with the
uncomfortable.
Randye Sundel (18:40):
Because we can't help each other if we stay away
because we don't know what tosay.
I think, when people saw me asthis young woman with this young
child who had lost her brother,maybe they thought that could be
me.
(19:01):
I think that's a natural way tothink, and nobody wants to think
that,
Dr. Dean (19:09):
Right.
So, I don't know if you know thehistory of how the Industrial
Revolution impacted caregivingand death and dying.
Randye Sundel (19:18):
Tell me,
Dr. Dean (19:20):
Before that people died at home.
People were sick at home.
There was a comfort with that.
People from young ages, childrenand all the way up, knew people
that had died at home.
They watched that.
They were part of the caregivingprocess, bringing water and, all
of the things that they neededto do to make someone
comfortable in the process ofdying and in death.
(19:42):
But then it moved to hospitalsand we have separated ourselves
from that idea.
And so as a society, this isreflected because we don't talk
about death.
We're not comfortable with it.
And so we don't see it.
We're afraid of it.
And then when people arecaregiving or grieving or
mourning, we're also afraid ofthat because it's, like you
(20:02):
said, uncomfortable.
Randye Sundel (20:05):
In the.
Late 1970s, early 80s, there wasnothing in place, to, support
me, you didn't have homecomputers, you didn't have
online groups, you didn't havesupport groups.
One of the things I did, andthis was key to my making my way
forward to whatever extent was,I had an opportunity to work
(20:31):
setting up a Gilda's club
Dr. Dean (20:34):
Oh, that's lovely.
Randye Sundel (20:36):
near, near where I lived.
I had friends who were involved.
And.
I had a company, I had beenworking for a marketing agency,
closed its doors, and I justtook this on pro bono.
I did all the public relationsand media relations, and I
(20:57):
worked so hard.
My husband would say, come tobed, it's midnight, and I'd say,
no, this is really important tome, because I would have given
anything to have had that kindof infrastructure, to support
me.
And it was really interesting,Angela, because when people knew
(21:20):
that my brother was ill way backwhen and, if somebody said to
me, how's your brother doing?
I was naive.
I thought they really wanted toknow.
And I told them chapter andverse: every surgery, every
chemo, every radiationtreatment.
I quickly got the idea that,they were being polite.
(21:44):
And so then I would, if I gotthe question, I would say, not
so good or a little stronger orwhatever it was.
And I had such a need to talk.
And then I'd feel guilty becauseI'm thinking, I'm healthy.
What do I have to complainabout?
Dr. Dean (22:06):
So I know this from book knowledge, not from having
lived it from my past.
I still work with a lot ofcancer patients, but that used
to be exclusively what I did.
So the history of psychologistsand psychiatrists and social
workers in, cancer centersstarts around the same time that
your brother, was ill.
And my understanding, and maybeyou can confirm or deny this, is
(22:30):
that there was a stigma aroundcancer.
at the time too.
Randye Sundel (22:34):
Very much so.
Dr. Dean (22:35):
How did that impact you as far as being a caregiver
for him and then grieving him?
Randye Sundel (22:44):
Yeah, it was hard to say the word cancer.
It did set off all kinds ofbells and whistles in people's
minds.
Almost like you could catch it.
like it was contagious.
Even saying the word seemeddangerous in those years.
I hadn't remembered that untilyou started to talk about this.
(23:10):
And the guilt that I felt, Whywas I spared?
Why did he die?
and would I be healthy?
Would my child be healthy?
Is this genetic?
Dr. Dean (23:26):
Mm
Randye Sundel (23:28):
And it was difficult to find people who
wanted to engage with me, totalk about it.
My saving grace was my dearfriend, Joe, who was my vocal
coach and my music collaborator.
He was comfortable listening
Dr. Dean (23:50):
Mm
Randye Sundel (23:50):
and I found that through the music, I could get
my needs met.
I could be real.
I could tell the truth of what Iwas feeling.
Dr. Dean (24:05):
mmhmm
Randye Sundel (24:05):
Because I really couldn't do that around people.
I think, and you've experiencedthis with your brother Tony, and
I think when you're in thatposition, you don't want to turn
people away.
You need people in your life.
And so you're very cautious.
(24:27):
I was.
About what I said because Ididn't want anybody heading for
the hills because this was tooheavy for them to deal with.
And so I never really had thosekinds of conversations with
almost anybody.
Dr. Dean (24:43):
mmhmm
Randye Sundel (24:44):
And even my parents, we all responded
differently to my brother'sdeath.
My father did not utter mybrother's name until months
before he died.
18 years
Dr. Dean (24:58):
Mm hmm.
Randye Sundel (25:00):
When we heard him say, Mitch, we were just
stunned.
And what my father tried to do,his response was to go to his
place of worship and I think tryto bury his grief.
My mother felt betrayed and shedidn't set foot.
(25:23):
into a synagogue until my sonwas bar mitzvahed.
That was 13 years later.
And with me, I had tried tostrike a deal with God when I
knew I was likely to miscarry.
Dr. Dean (25:41):
hmm.
Randye Sundel (25:41):
And Mitch was so sick.
And I said, if you have to takethis fetus, let my brother live.
let my brother live.
I can't lose both.
And I lost both
Dr. Dean (25:56):
mm
Randye Sundel (25:57):
and I had to figure out what I was going to
do with that.
And I read Many Lives, ManyMasters by Brian Weiss, a
psychiatrist.
And when I read it, I justthought, I don't have enough
information to know what goes onand whether I can judge God.
Dr. Dean (26:23):
Mm hmm.
Randye Sundel (26:25):
And, I decided to give him a mulligan or her a
mulligan, and I thought I don'thave all the information I need,
but I believed that there was ananswer somewhere in the
universe.
I just wouldn't be able toaccess it until it was my time.
And, that was enough to let meput one foot in front of the
(26:50):
other.
So that was helpful to me.
But my mother and I would talkabout my brother.
My father could not do it.
And he developed Parkinson'sdisease.
I don't know if there was acorrelation.
My mother, who was the shy one,my father was the big
(27:11):
personality, and as he withdrew,she came forward.
And suddenly my mother wastalking to people who were in
situations like the ones we hadbeen in.
And she was trying to help them.
She was comforting them, and shewas talking about Mitch and
(27:33):
family and all the rest of this.
For me, working with Gilda'sClub, I find that when you're in
a bad place, one of the bestways to try to lift yourself up
is to help other people,
Dr. Dean (27:49):
mmhmm
Randye Sundel (27:50):
is to focus on other people and what you can do
for them.
That's what I'm hoping my bookwill do, will help people or
these kinds of conversationsthat you're having.
just having you say, tell meabout your brother is so
wonderful because we don't hearthat from people.
Dr. Dean (28:09):
Right, and I imagine you hear it less and less
Randye Sundel (28:12):
over time Of course.
And there are fewer people whoknew him, who were around.
and, so that was a gift you gaveme to just say, tell me about
Mitch.
Dr. Dean (28:23):
I'm glad that, and I will listen to you whenever you
want to talk about him.
Randye Sundel (28:27):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (28:29):
So I know what Gilda's Club is.
Our listeners may not.
I know the one here inPittsburgh the name has changed
and merged with anotherorganization.
Randye Sundel (28:36):
They've changed it to Cancer Community of
Greater, by me it was GreaterNew York and Connecticut.
And they did that, Gilda's Clubwas named for Gilda Radner, who
was a fabulous comedian andactress and famous for Saturday
Night Live.
Gilda died sadly too early ofovarian cancer, but Gilda's Club
(29:00):
was not about medical things.
Gilda's Club was all aboutcommunity.
It was an emotional and socialsupport community where people
could come and talk, and therewere, comedy, sessions.
There were people who would comein, and help you set up your day
(29:21):
so that you could functionbetter.
and, what I loved about Gilda'sClub and what I used to tell the
media who would cover Gilda'sClub is that don't say people
are battling cancer or cancer.
People are living with cancerbecause once you start putting
(29:41):
it in those terms and somebodydies, it's like they didn't
fight hard enough.
Dr. Dean (29:46):
Exactly.
Yes.
I say this all the time with mypatients.
Randye Sundel (29:50):
Right?
And I thought that's really sosmart.
So thank you for letting meexplain.
I should have explained whatGilda's Club was all about.
And now I guess as youngerpeople are coming to it.
They may not be familiar withGilda Radner.
And I guess that was the reasonfor the name change.
(30:10):
That's my understanding.
That's what they did.
but what a wonderful, I wouldurge anybody who either has a
family member or a friend andthey even had Noogie land for
kids.
So if you had, a sibling who wasliving with cancer, there was a
place for you where people knewhow to talk to you.
(30:34):
This is, this is really what weneed.
We need more of that.
We need more of that.
Dr. Dean (30:41):
There are some resources out there for siblings
whose siblings are sick or havedied.
but they're young.
What you and I have bothexperienced and many of our
listeners is that once you're anadult, there's not that support
either
Randye Sundel (30:57):
It's not top of mind, right?
That's what you say.
It's not top of mind.
Dr. Dean (31:02):
Exactly.
Randye Sundel (31:03):
People ask how your parents are doing, and they
just don't think about it.
Whenever I'm in a situationwhere people I know have lost, a
child, and there is a sibling.
I always say, I am happy to talkto your daughter who was the
(31:25):
sister.
I am happy to do that becauseshe needs attention and she
needs different kind ofattention.
And, I make it a point to alwaysask, even with caregivers,
everybody asks how the patientis.
I ask how the caregiver isdoing.
Dr. Dean (31:43):
Yeah.
I love that so much.
Randye Sundel (31:45):
It means so much.
Dr. Dean (31:47):
mmhmm
Randye Sundel (31:48):
I say that my brother's absence has had a huge
presence in my life.
And I say that, Angela, becauseI went through my parents'
illnesses alone, and I wanted totalk to him and I wanted his
advice.
(32:08):
Mitch always knew, I don't know,maybe he was here before.
I don't know, but he just seemedto have so much wisdom for a
young man.
I half joke saying that when itcame to caregiving for my
parents, the good news was thatI could make all decisions
(32:28):
unilaterally.
I didn't have a sibling who wassaying, no, don't do it that
way.
And the bad news was that I hadto make every decision
unilaterally.
It was a very lonely place tobe.
And after my brother died, I hadbeen a very self confident
(32:48):
person, and for a long time, Ijust didn't trust myself.
I didn't trust myself to raisemy son.
I didn't trust myself to makedecisions.
about what to do about myparents and their care.
I just questioned everything.
Dr. Dean (33:08):
hmm
Randye Sundel (33:09):
Because I was so sure that I could save him.
I jumped through hoops.
I did my research in libraries.
There was no Google.
Dr. Dean (33:21):
Right.
Randye Sundel (33:22):
I found, trials in Wiesbaden, Germany.
And my brother said, I'm notleaving.
I want to be here with my familyand friends.
So I got him to this renownedHodgkin's expert at Sloan
Kettering, who was not taking onnew patients.
(33:44):
And I wrote him a letter andthen he took my brother on.
But it was a bad fit
Dr. Dean (33:52):
Mm.
Randye Sundel (33:52):
because he thought my brother was not
grateful enough.
My brother said, I will tradequantity of years for quality of
life.
Put me in experimentaltreatments.
They were using interferon atthe time.
And this oncologist, justthought, no, that's not how you
(34:15):
should do it.
And my brother said, isn't it mylife?
He said to me, and I said, yes.
if you want to go elsewhere, wewill find another doctor for
you.
And, he did ask for what heneeded, my brother.
He really did ask for what heneeded.
I talked about having him not bethere.
(34:37):
That is a hole.
You know that.
That is a hole you cannot fill.
it's like you've got this jigsawpuzzle of thousands of pieces.
And there's a piece that'smissing.
And you just can't put it backtogether the way it was.
It's just impossible.
(34:58):
I couldn't process my griefbecause I kept putting out fires
for everybody.
Dr. Dean (35:02):
Mm hmm.
Randye Sundel (35:04):
What I think the conclusion I came to was That if
you don't get grief out of yourbody, it will attack your body.
And I went through a periodwhere I had awful stomach pains.
I went to see, a social worker.
She said, Randye, you haven'tgrieved.
(35:29):
And I thought, No, I reallyhaven't.
I've been trying to take care ofmy little one.
And I went to the cemetery.
My husband was going to comewith me because he was alone.
He was nervous.
So Bob was going to come with meand I said, no, because if you
(35:50):
come with me, I'm going to beworried about your response to
how I am in that situation.
So, I need to be withoutjudgment and I'll be okay.
And I drove myself out there andI went to my brother's grave and
it was like a screen test.
I just ran the gamut ofemotions.
(36:12):
I was angry at him for leavingme.
I was so, so sad, the thoughtthat he would never know his
nephew, my son, because theywould have gotten on famously.
Oh, I see so much of Mitch.
in my son, Greg.
(36:32):
and some of Mitch's friendswho've met my son, tell me the
same thing.
There is just so much of hisgoodness in him and that makes
me feel really wonderful.
But being out in that cemetery,I just decided I was just going
to be however I was.
(36:53):
And I remember sitting on thegrass.
It was like the way we used tobe when he was in my apartment.
And I was feeding him a 24 houra day, buffet, trying to fatten
him up from his radiationtreatments.
And we would just talk.
I'm just sitting there with him.
(37:13):
I'm talking to him, and therewas something really wonderful
about that awful venue.
but I was connecting with him,which is what I think I love so
much about writing about him.
(37:34):
It's like reliving all of thesepainful moments, but it's
wonderful because I'm getting tospend time with my brother
Dr. Dean (37:43):
Yeah.
Randye Sundel (37:44):
and remembering the stuff when we were young and
remembering the laughter andremembering all those things.
I tell people, Write yourmemories.
You don't have to show it toanybody, but But it's wonderful.
That connection is absolutelywonderful.
(38:05):
So that's another way I thinkthat I've tried to make myself
whole again.
I think I've learned that griefis really love.
And in the beginning.
I was so afraid to let it goIt's so scary.
Dr. Dean (38:26):
Yeah.
Randye Sundel (38:27):
because you're not sure you're going to put
yourself back together again ifyou really just let it go.
And when I was at his grave, Ijust trusted that I could put
myself back together again and Ijust bawled.
it sounds so strange, but.
(38:49):
When I woke up the followingmorning, my stomach didn't hurt
anymore.
Dr. Dean (38:53):
Yeah, I think, things we don't talk about, in addition
to grief in general, is thatthere is a physical impact.
Everyone thinks it's onlyemotional, but there are many
other aspects to grief.
Randye Sundel (39:06):
Yeah,
Dr. Dean (39:07):
Yeah.
Randye Sundel (39:08):
but you have to trust that and that's a hard
thing to do.
It's a hard thing to do becauseyou're not sure if, you're
already feeling so fragile.
And you're in such a fog.
it's a scary place to be.
But There is no other way aroundgrief.
(39:30):
And I think what felt like aboulder initially, I'm 45 years
out from his death.
my dad died in 97, my mom in2013, my husband in 2015.
And So this has been part andparcel of my life, when I feel
(39:53):
grief, because it never leavesyou, right?
what I've found is, it doesn'tscare me anymore.
And when something reminds me,when I'm in that place, I just
think, okay, I see you.
I know you're there.
And I find by doing that, I takeaway a lot of its power because
(40:19):
it's going to keep poking at meuntil I acknowledge it.
It's going to find a way to getmy attention.
And so now I just, I, Think ofit as a reminder of love that I
shared with all of these people.
And now it's like this colorfultail on a kite that just lifts
(40:45):
me up and lets me soar becausethey really are the wind beneath
my wings.
They really are.
Dr. Dean (40:54):
It's a very sad movie that was the theme song
Randye Sundel (40:56):
yeah, but It's that love that really is
powerful.
That's what the grief is.
Cause you wouldn't feel sostrongly if it was not built on
love.
Dr. Dean (41:08):
Exactly, right?
I think the saying goes, griefis love with no place to go.
And also, you lose people andyou may not be affected by it,
right?
That you're not, that you don'tlove, like people we don't know
that are in the news orwhatever.
So I think that just highlightsexactly what you're saying.
Grief is love.
Randye Sundel (41:29):
Yeah.
I think once you can make thatconnection, it's not as
frightening, it's not
Dr. Dean (41:36):
hmm.
Mm hmm.
Randye Sundel (41:37):
and when it happens, I, sometimes I think
it's that pesky mosquito.
and sometimes that mosquito isgoing to bite you, it's going to
sting, and 45 years later, itwill still sting me, and I just
acknowledge it, and I think onceyou recognize that it's on this
(42:03):
trip with you forever, thatgrief, It's not going anywhere,
and sometimes it'll rear itshead in the, at the weirdest
times.
you're standing in line to checkout at a supermarket and
something just hits you,
Dr. Dean (42:19):
Yeah Oh, it's always the grocery store.
Randye Sundel (42:21):
right?
It's the grocery store is big.
you're just watching a movie andsuddenly you're just dissolving
into a puddle.
I remember right after Mitchdied, I'd look around at people
who were behaving in terribleways to other people, and I
(42:42):
would think, my wonderfulbrother is dead, and you get to
live making people's livesmiserable.
And I was so angry, because itjust felt so unjust.
The other thing that used to getto me, I guess it still does, is
(43:02):
when I talk to people who areestranged from siblings, and for
whatever reason they've chosento have no contact.
And that breaks my heart.
Because I would give anything,to have my brother with me.
Dr. Dean (43:17):
Yeah.
I think that's a difficult onebecause sometimes there are good
reasons for people to estrangethemselves Yes
Randye Sundel (43:22):
sometimes there are.
Dr. Dean (43:24):
And yet, I talked to Brandi and I think it was the
second season of this podcast.
She was estranged from her twin.
when he died.
I know that she's stillstruggling with her grief, and
will always, right, like all ofus, and has found ways to
reconcile the estrangement afterhis death.
So I think that it'scomplicated, but I also hear
(43:45):
that, right?
We lost our siblings and thenenvy that other people still
have them
Randye Sundel (43:49):
Yes.
Dr. Dean (43:50):
and may not have a relationship with them.
I think that's a challenge
Randye Sundel (43:54):
Yeah,
Dr. Dean (43:54):
only looking at it from our perspective.
Randye Sundel (43:58):
Yeah,
Dr. Dean (44:00):
You also had anticipatory grief with, it
sounds like all of your losses.
Randye Sundel (44:05):
yes.
Oh my gosh.
Dr. Dean (44:06):
Do you want to say more about that?
Randye Sundel (44:08):
Yeah.
Ah, it is so Frustrating seeingthis car coming right at you and
there isn't a thing you can doabout it.
your life shrinks so much, it'sa slow, it's a slow death for
the person watching.
(44:30):
with my husband, my life gotsmaller and smaller because he
was ill, throughout ourmarriage.
But at the end, I knew it wascritical.
And You change because you don'thave the same relationship with
that loved one, because youcan't,
Dr. Dean (44:51):
hmm.
Randye Sundel (44:52):
you can't, you're trying to be there for them, and
in doing so, you're not takingcare of Your own needs it's a
very lonely place to be becauseagain, who are you sharing this
with?
You can't share it with theperson who's dying.
I could share with my parentswhat I needed as it related with
(45:18):
my brother as a matter of fact.
My parents were with my brother,when he died.
I was not because I had gone tosee my brother, but my parents
called and remember I was eightmonths pregnant and told me he
was gone and told me he had beencoding and when they, he coded
(45:40):
this last time, they had toldthe medical staff the next time
he codes, let him go.
Cause I said, why didn't theybring him back?
And my mother said, cause wetold him to let him go.
He was ready to go.
And I said, but I didn't givepermission.
(46:05):
I didn't give permission to lethim go.
And then I felt so much guilt.
Because they had just lost theirson, and I was directing my
anger, my sadness at them.
And then I just said, I'm sosorry, Mom and Dad, I'm so
(46:26):
sorry.
And they said, it's okay, we'llsee you tomorrow.
And they said, Randye you knewhow sick he was.
And I did, but I didn't becauseI didn't want to believe it.
I didn't want to believe it.
(46:46):
And denial is such a powerfulfeeling that we have, so you
expect it.
And it's still a shock.
It's still a shock.
and that in between time is sodifficult to navigate
anticipating what's going to benot knowing how it's going To
(47:07):
impact your life when iteventually happens.
Dr. Dean (47:11):
hmm.
Randye Sundel (47:13):
but I think when the grieving starts before
somebody is gone.
I think it's different than whenit's a shock.
they both stink.
Dr. Dean (47:24):
Of course.
Randye Sundel (47:25):
It doesn't matter.
I don't compare.
everybody's grief is valid.
And every way that someonechooses to grieve is valid.
but it's different.
It's different when you have,been processing that this is
going to occur.
(47:46):
And for me, for every one of myloved ones, I had anticipatory
grief.
Because they all had lengthyillnesses.
Nobody just went like that.
And yet you're shocked it
Dr. Dean (48:03):
course.
Yeah.
I was just actually thinkingabout this.
I don't know if I actually saidit out loud to my husband the
other day, but they released thetheme song for this podcast as a
single that you can download.
And, I was thinking very muchabout this concept too, because.
If Tomorrow Starts Without Me isthe name of the song.
(48:24):
And even though you'reanticipating it, you still,
unless it's medical aid anddying, which is not legal in
most places, you still don'tknow exactly when that time or
that day will be.
You might know within a shortperiod of time before it
happens, but you generally don'tknow.
(48:46):
Oh, in three months on thisdate, this person even in
anticipatory grief, you have noidea.
So thank you for sharing thatbecause I, it validated what I
was thinking about the otherday.
Not that I need validation, butthank you.
And it's all painful.
Randye Sundel (49:04):
Yeah.
life is everything, right?
It's every emotion.
and nobody Gets off scott free.
Gets through this life withoutpaying
Dr. Dean (49:16):
Right.
Or dying.
Randye Sundel (49:17):
nobody or dying.
Yeah, nobody.
I will tell you that my brothertold my parents that he had the
best life.
That he had the best family andthe best friends.
And I thought, how at this time,knowing he was staring death in
(49:39):
the face, he found gratitude.
And I try to find gratitude.
I really do in everything.
I try to find gratitude.
That grounds me.
and he also asked my parents ifthey had seen the movie Heaven
Can Wait, which was a remakewith Warren Beatty where, this
(50:02):
athlete is taken with amotorcycle accident and he
wasn't supposed to die.
And so they keep putting himback into other bodies, and,
finding a place.
And he tells his love interest,I may not look like me, but if
you ever come across somebodyand you just have that sense
(50:24):
that this person is familiar insome way, that might be me.
and so I have looked for thesesigns and I have seen some of
these signs where things thatwere preposterous, it didn't
(50:45):
make sense other than somehowthat was, my brother letting me
know.
When my son was bar mitzvahed,this huge snapper turtle came.
And, a Jamaican friend said, infolklore, that's, that means
something.
That's the spirit coming back.
and she said, and how amazing,because my whole family was
(51:08):
gathered.
My parents were up from Florida.
We were all together.
That was the week.
And he was with us.
Through this turtle and turtlesfollowed my son throughout his
life.
Turtle was there when he, gothis acceptance in college.
My son wore a vineyard vine tiefor his wedding that had
(51:33):
turtles.
Never having met my brother, hebrought my brother to his
wedding for my mother and forme.
That is a big regret I have thatthey never were here, not for a
moment.
And it was like my brother leftand my son arrived.
(51:55):
Sometimes I'd confuse them, I'dcall my son Greg Mitch, I would
be pitching to him on thedriveway or something and he
just morphed into my brother.
I hope I didn't put too muchpressure on, on, on my son to
live for himself and my brother.
(52:16):
Because I know I put a lot ofpressure on myself to live both
our lives.
Dr. Dean (52:20):
Mm.
Randye Sundel (52:21):
Because I was here for a reason.
I was here for a reason and hewas shortchanged.
So I had to be even better.
I was all my parents had untilthey had their grandson.
You talk about the fog of grief.
Dr. Dean (52:37):
Mm
Randye Sundel (52:38):
A few weeks after my brother died, I had my son,
and I had said to my parents, ifyou don't want to come to the
hospital if you're not able tobe in a hospital setting again.
I won't be upset with you.
You could come visit me and thebaby at home.
My mother said, No, we will bethere.
(52:59):
And my parents came.
And when I saw the look on theirface, looking at their
grandchild, I thought, What wasI thinking?
Dr. Dean (53:09):
Mm.
Randye Sundel (53:10):
I was trying to protect them.
from what I thought, would be atraumatic experience to walk
into a hospital so soon.
Dr. Dean (53:21):
Was it traumatic for you, to walk into the hospital?
Randye Sundel (53:23):
No, I don't think I felt trauma.
I think I just felt cheated.
I just felt cheated.
Here was a case where the exactremedy for my parents was coming
to the hospital and seeing theirgrandchild.
that's what gave us all this newlife, a chance you.
(53:46):
He was the hope.
He was the great hope,
Dr. Dean (53:49):
mmhmm
Randye Sundel (53:50):
but I saw it as they needed my protection and
they, they needed the opposite.
They needed the opposite.
It
Dr. Dean (54:01):
Would you mind saying more about what it was like to
be the only person taking careof your parents?
I think that is something somany of the people I've talked
to, and myself included, aredreading.
And I'm just wondering what thatwas like for you.
Randye Sundel (54:17):
It is a very lonely place to be because you
are second guessing yourself allover the place.
I don't have all the answers.
I'm trying to figure out, wherethey should be.
With my dad, we had him in anursing home.
He escaped from one.
(54:38):
We had him in another one.
But before we had him in thenursing home, my mother was
taking care of him at home, andhe would cut himself, not
intentionally, he just I didn'tknow what he was doing and he
was shaking and I'd say, Mom,how long has this been going on?
She says, it's okay.
(54:58):
I call EMS.
I said, no, we're not doing thisanymore.
And I flew them up to New York.
I met with a neurologist at amajor New York hospital.
And when I saw the condition myfather was in and what my mother
was dealing with, I said, no, nomore.
Cause I was worried about mymother.
(55:19):
Because I'm thinking, she cannotbe doing this.
And so I flew down there and wewent around and we found a place
for him.
But my mother lived in darknessduring that time.
She got up in the morning, shedidn't open the shades.
She went right to the nursinghome and she stayed there the
(55:41):
entire day until he had hisdinner.
And then she went home indarkness.
And that was her life and shedid this every day and people at
the nursing home would say, gohome, it's, he's okay, go home.
And she didn't do that.
And I was terribly worried abouther.
(56:04):
Ultimately she developedAlzheimer's.
Before I even was willing toadmit that's.
was happening to her.
I kept rationalizing herbehavior because it was
unthinkable.
My father was gone.
My brother was gone.
(56:24):
My husband never did well withdifficult subjects.
there was so much, just so muchI could talk to him about it.
I did join support groups atthat point.
I am such a believer in all ofthat.
It was really helpful, but I wasnow trying to figure out what to
(56:48):
do with mom and I wanted her tohave socialization because she
was having none.
And I wanted her to be in a safeplace, because there had been a
hurricane and I couldn't get toher.
She couldn't get to me.
She couldn't get food.
She was eating crap.
So I said, okay, mom, here's thedeal.
(57:10):
I said, if you want to stay inFlorida, you can stay in
Florida, but you must besomewhere where I know you're
safe.
And I will fly back and forth tosee you.
And, I put her in initially as,independent living.
And then I quickly saw that mymother used to do crossword
(57:30):
puzzles in ink.
The Sunday New York Times inink..
And suddenly she couldn't wrapher head around this little
abstract concept.
Dr. Dean (57:41):
Mm
Randye Sundel (57:42):
And I thought, oh no, we got a bigger problem
here.
And so we went to address allthat.
I had my cousins.
My cousin Lonnie, who babysatMitch and me when we were kids.
She was living near mom, and shewas my eyes and ears when I
wasn't in Florida.
(58:02):
And my husband was in and out ofhospital.
So I was trying to clone myself,and I just couldn't do it.
but I tried.
These were momentous decisions.
These were life and death andquality of life decisions.
And I made them by myself.
And I would try, to talk topeople who had healthcare
(58:23):
companies providing aids anddoing all of that.
to please just give mesuggestions.
What do they think?
Because I knew I didn't have theanswers, and I remember talking
to my mother's doctor and said,if she has Alzheimer's, what
should I expect?
(58:44):
And he said to me, Do you have acomputer?
Google it.
Dr. Dean (58:49):
That's horrible.
Randye Sundel (58:50):
That was horrible.
That was horrible.
Because this was a doctor whohad cared for my mom for three
or more decades.
She and my dad were one of hisfirst patients, and as soon as
her mind was declining, hedidn't want to deal with it.
(59:10):
and she thought he was a god.
My
Dr. Dean (59:13):
hmm.
Randye Sundel (59:14):
adored him, and I was terribly disappointed, so he
was not anybody I could turn to.
As I said, I had to make allthese decisions unilaterally,
and the hardest decision I hadto make for mom was after she
was falling a lot.
I watched her in rehab, and theysaid you have to decide where
(59:34):
she's going to live when werelease her.
We can't tell you when we'regoing to release her, but we
have to decide, and I thought,could I send my mom back to the
place that she had lived forfive years with people who had
watched her decline?
and might judge her and if shehad a lucid moment, how would
(59:56):
that make her feel I was goingto have to get so much more help
for her and I decided to moveher into memory care unit and
she didn't live there very long.
My cousin said, Oh, she's goingto be the most high functioning
person there.
No.
My mom knew me almost to theend.
(01:00:18):
And I remember the day she said,What was your brother's name
again?
Dr. Dean (01:00:23):
Oh.
Randye Sundel (01:00:24):
And that just ripped me apart.
And then she didn't know myname.
she knew I was somebody who, wasnice to her.
I actually had a talk with mygrown son after my mom passed to
let him know that, should thatbe my fate?
(01:00:44):
Cause I don't know, shouldAlzheimer's be my fate, what my
wishes were and that they werenot for him to beat himself up
the way I beat myself up.
I wrote it in a funny way,because obviously he did not
want to have this conversationwith me.
(01:01:05):
But, that was my way of takingcontrol of the situation while I
had the wherewithal to have it.
It was a piece I had writtenthat I think helped people and
engage in those kinds ofconversations.
These are the kinds ofconversations.
that we all need to be havingand it destigmatizes things that
(01:01:28):
illnesses and grieving andeverything that we don't talk
about that.
Dr. Dean (01:01:34):
for sure Yeah.
Thank you.
Thanatology.
It's death, dying, bereavement,and just loss in general.
The, goal there is also to makethis a little bit more normal to
talk about and support peoplewith, What would you like to say
about the book and when that'scoming out?
Randye Sundel (01:01:49):
it's been a process.
Dr. Dean (01:01:50):
I'm sure it has.
Randye Sundel (01:01:51):
I am in revisions right now because it was very
important that my vulnerabilitybe out on the page so that
people could relate.
What I realized was it was veryWhat I thought was on the page
was not on the page, because Ibasically put on a show for
(01:02:13):
myself.
The performer put on a show forherself in order
Dr. Dean (01:02:18):
Mm
Randye Sundel (01:02:19):
to function.
And so what I'm doing in theserevisions is I'm going to those
dark places that I really feltbut couldn't put out there
except through my music.
and so I think once this isdone, I will have the book that
(01:02:39):
I intended to write, which was abook that would hopefully
inspire people going throughdifficult times to feel that
there is a way through it.
But you really have to gothrough it.
You can't walk around it.
There is no possible way, toleap over it, to push it down,
(01:03:04):
because it's gonna pop up.
and I've found a way to finallychoose me.
I am living in a way that Icould not live for many decades
of my life.
I joke to people.
I say I'm living in a hurrybecause there's so much I want
to do.
And I am throwing caution to thewind.
(01:03:27):
You asked me what I liked.
Absolutely.
I would like to do and, have aconversation with you.
I'm trying to make a difference.
That's important to me.
this book is my legacy and italso honors my family, my loving
family.
(01:03:47):
because, I was one of the luckyones.
Not everybody has a family, thatgives them unconditional love
and mine did.
It doesn't spare you fromheartbreak.
Dr. Dean (01:03:59):
Yeah.
Randye Sundel (01:04:00):
That's gonna find you.
but I think it helps.
If you've been reading books,there are so many authors now
who are talking about grief insuch positive and honest ways.
Colin Campbell wrote, Findingthe Words, and I've spoken with
him.
Colin, is saying to people,don't be afraid to tell me about
(01:04:25):
the person you knew who I loved,whether it's my children or my
brother, because You're notgoing to make me sad.
I'm already sad.
Dr. Dean (01:04:35):
Exactly.
We're already thinking aboutthem and sad.
Yeah.
Randye Sundel (01:04:39):
I know that they're gone.
Boy, it's wonderful, as you saidto me, tell me about your
brother.
It's wonderful to ask peoplethat question.
Because we want to talk aboutthem.
You want to talk about Tony.
Dr. Dean (01:04:56):
Yeah.
for sure.
On that vein, let's switch to,and I know you've shared a lot
already of these, but do youhave any favorite memories that
you want to share with us?
Randye Sundel (01:05:06):
I told you Mitch was very wise.
I was talking with him, tellinghim, this is when I had a
college roommate who just abusedme.
and I was telling my father, Isaid, I just feel like she
treats me like I'm the doormatand my dad.
in his form said, turn the othercheek, Randye and I'm going, no
(01:05:29):
dad, it doesn't feel right.
I shouldn't have to put up withthis.
And I'm telling Mitch and Mitchsays to me, Randye he says,
what's the matter with you?
He said, why must you try topersuade dad that he's wrong and
you're right.
He says, you know what I do?
(01:05:50):
I tell dad something.
He tells me what I should do.
I go, good idea, dad.
And I do what I want.
And I said, that's brilliant.
That's brilliant.
It would never have occurred tome to just not have to win this
battle.
Just do.
(01:06:11):
what feels right to me.
So that was just one of thewonderful memories and also Not
a wonderful memory, but I holdon to it because it's really the
last one I had.
I was able to visit my brotherwhen I was eight months
pregnant.
It didn't occur to me that hewas saying, yes, come, because
(01:06:32):
he knew he was dying.
It didn't occur to me.
I was just so happy that I wasgoing to get to see him.
And he looked great.
He had the nurses shave him.
They prettied him up.
He had a smile on his face.
We were laughing and joking.
And I thought, I know what myparents are telling me, but
(01:06:54):
maybe it's going to be allright.
Maybe it's going to be allright.
And he hadn't seen me sopregnant because he kept me
away.
And he goes, when's the babydue?
And I said, five weeks.
And he goes.
Oh, that's a long time.
And I said, what do you mean?
(01:07:15):
I've got a million things to do.
Not realizing he was saying, I'mnot not going to be here.
And all he wanted to know frommy parents when they gave him
permission to go was that Iwould be okay, my baby would be
(01:07:39):
okay, my husband would be okay,and our parents would be okay.
That's what he needed.
He needed permission, but heneeded to know we were going to
be okay.
And my parents gave himpermission, which is something
I've done for a lot of people,friends and all, at the end,
(01:08:03):
because I find people do needthat.
It gives them peace of mind toknow that their loved ones will
be okay.
Not that we can know forcertain, but we give that to
them.
And from my brother, when Iwasn't singing and he wanted to
know why I wasn't singing.
And I said, I just don't havethe confidence.
(01:08:25):
I'm tense about it.
What if I bomb?
And he goes, yeah, let's say yougo out on stage, Randye and you
stink up the place.
He said, is your husband, Bobgoing to leave you?
Are your friends gonna walk theother way, cross the street, not
to be And he got me laughing.
And he said, What's the worstthing that could happen?
(01:08:48):
If you really did something andyou failed, what's the worst?
And I hear his voice in my headevery time I put myself in a
position.
should I try this?
Should I take a risk and dothis?
Should I try, should I letmyself maybe fall in love again?
Which I did.
(01:09:11):
I hear that voice in my head,What's the worst thing that
could happen?
And It just lifts me up.
It's like a big hug.
And when I think of my brother,that's, just feel that big hug.
Dr. Dean (01:09:27):
Thank you for sharing that.
and sharing
Randye Sundel (01:09:29):
you for giving me a chance to, the book is giving
me time with him.
You've given me more time withhim, I'm very grateful
Dr. Dean (01:09:39):
You're welcome.
And I want to say that you saidearlier that you hope you make a
difference in people's lives AndI can tell you already, this
conversation has made adifference for me.
So
Randye Sundel (01:09:50):
Oh,
Dr. Dean (01:09:51):
Thank you,
Randye Sundel (01:09:52):
Thank you, Angela.
That means everything.
That means everything.
Dr. Dean (01:09:55):
You're welcome.
/Thank you so much forlistening.
Our theme song was written byJoe Mylward and Brian Dean and
was performed by Fuji Sounds(feat.
MYLWD.).
If you would like moreinformation on The Broken Pack™,
go to our website,thebrokenpack.
com.
Be sure to sign up for ournewsletter, Wild Grief™, and to
learn about opportunities andreceive exclusive information
and content, as well as grievingtips for subscribers.
(01:10:18):
Information on that, our socialmedia and on our guest can be
found in the show notes whereveryou get your podcasts.
Please like, follow, rate,subscribe, and share.
Thanks again.
Hello and welcome to the Broken Pack, a podcast
focused on giving adultsurvivors of sibling loss, a
platform to share their storiesand to be heard.
Something that many sibling losssurvivors state that they never
have had.
sibling loss is misunderstood.
The broken Pack exists to changethat and to support survivors.
(00:32):
I'm your host, Dr.
Angela Dean.
In today's episode I spoke withauthor, actress, and lyricist
Randyee Sundel.
Randyee has experienced muchloss in her life, including the
loss of her brother Mitch fromcancer nearly 45 years ago.
We discussed how grief hasshaped her and how she navigated
(00:53):
her parents illnesses and lossalone without her brother.
This is a concern so manygrieving siblings have and
anticipate.
Randye has been writing a memoirof living, loving, and loss, and
we also discussed how theproject has been a way to
continue her process and livewith her grief of many losses,
including the loss of herbrother Mitch.
(01:14):
Our conversation inspired me,and I hope it does you as well.
All right.
welcome to the show, Randye.
I was wondering how you want tointroduce yourself to myself and
our listeners.
Randye Sundel (01:34):
Thank you, Angela.
I am Randye Sundel.
I am an author, an actress, alyricist, and I have been a New
Yorker most of my life.
I am currently living inConnecticut.
I have been a sister, adaughter, and a wife, and my
(01:59):
only sibling, my parents, and myhusband are all gone.
And I was a caregiver to all ofthem, either directly or
indirectly, starting with mybrother Mitch.
Mitch died of Hodgkin's disease45 years ago next month,
Dr. Dean (02:16):
oh,wow
Randye Sundel (02:17):
at the age of 26.
Dr. Dean (02:20):
mm hmm
Randye Sundel (02:21):
And I am writing my memoir.
Sibling grief and the impact ofit is really at the core of the
book, which is called Role of aLifetime.
Dr. Dean (02:33):
Oh, I love the title.
Randye Sundel (02:35):
Thank you.
Dr. Dean (02:37):
And you've had quite a bit of loss.
I'm sorry that you've had thatmuch loss and that much
caregiving.
It sounds like what you'reexamining in your book is how
it's affected you overall.
Randye Sundel (02:47):
Absolutely, because it really does impact
every aspect of your life.
It has to, because
Dr. Dean (02:55):
Yeah,
Randye Sundel (02:56):
you change of necessity,
Dr. Dean (03:01):
Yeah.
So what would you like us toknow about Mitch?
Randye Sundel (03:04):
Mitch.
Mitch was probably the mostalive person I've ever known.
He was the whole package.
He was good looking.
He was super smart, especiallyin math, which was my nemesis.
He was an exceptional athlete.
He was funny.
(03:25):
He was caring.
And he In his 26 short years, hereally lived life to the
fullest.
He was the cool kid in highschool.
I still have a relationship withsome of his friends from those
days and they describe him as alightning rod.
(03:45):
My brother brought disparatepeople together, people who
would never have connected onany level,
Dr. Dean (03:52):
hmm.
Randye Sundel (03:52):
But, he brought them together and I think Mitch
was always finding worthiness inpeople that sometimes didn't
find it in themselves.
And I think, in his short life,I think he made a huge
contribution to helping people.
(04:13):
After his funeral, there was acolleague who came up to me and
said that she was strugglingwith drugs.
And that my brother said to her,"You're better than this, you
deserve better than this." Shesaid,"And the fact that he
showed me that concern and toldme I was better than the life I
(04:39):
was living,"she said,"I turnedmy life around and I owe that.
And I can't believe he's gone
Dr. Dean (04:47):
hmm.
Randye Sundel (04:47):
because it might have been me." So that tells you
who he was.
Dr. Dean (04:54):
hmm.
Mm hmm.
Sounds like he cared deeplyabout other people.
Randye Sundel (04:58):
Yes, he did.
That's how we grew up.
We grew up in a family where, wewere taught to take care of each
other.
Dr. Dean (05:06):
mmhmm
Randye Sundel (05:06):
That was the value.
And I think sometimes it got alittle muddied because we were
so busy trying to protect eachother that we didn't always get
what we needed.
Dr. Dean (05:18):
What do you mean?
Randye Sundel (05:19):
Because we made assumptions as to what, the
other one in the family needed,and we acted on that, as opposed
to asking what we needed
Dr. Dean (05:31):
Mm hmm.
Randye Sundel (05:32):
and telling others.
what we needed.
And so that was a long journeyfor me, being able to validate
my needs because I was so busytaking care of all my family
members
Dr. Dean (05:47):
mmmhmm
Randye Sundel (05:47):
and what I thought they needed from me.
Dr. Dean (05:51):
That is so common with caregivers for sure, that they
put everyone else's needs aheadof themselves, which you have to
do in the caregiving role, butthen somehow it sounds like
you've learned to do that forthe other parts of your life
too.
Randye Sundel (06:05):
Yes.
it's been a journey.
I'm still on it, but I'm stilllearning.
With my brother, The reason Ibecame his caregiver initially
was that my parents had retiredto Florida.
They had been living in NewYork.
And when my brother wasdiagnosed, I was with him doing
(06:29):
all of that because, One of hisfriend's fathers, who was a
pharmacist, had called to myattention that Mitch was
lethargic, which was never aword you'd use to describe him.
He said he was going to takeMitch to have a biopsy done.
I was newly married.
I was married less than twoyears.
(06:50):
And I took it from there.
When we got the diagnosis, whichtook some time, Mitch said,"I
need you to not tell mom anddad.
Not now
Dr. Dean (07:01):
Hmm.
Mm
Randye Sundel (07:02):
"not now." And I said,"How can I do that?" And he
said, They just retired.
This is their time.
And this will devastate them.
And frankly, I need time to cometo terms with what's happening
to me." He was all of 23.
And I was three and a half yearsolder.
(07:25):
I didn't realize, my choice waseither to protect him and lie to
my parents.
Or betray him and tell myparents the truth, which is an
impossible decision.
Dr. Dean (07:37):
Right.
Randye Sundel (07:38):
I decided he was the one who was ill and I would
protect him.
And I didn't realize all theimplications of that because
that meant that I was in chargeof his care.
I was in charge of dealing withthe doctors and paying his
medical bills.
He was one month shy of havingcoverage at his job.
(08:01):
He was, not quite a year out ofcollege.
it was very difficult.
I was just keeping everything tomyself.
I went down to visit my parentswith my husband, because we had
planned that, and I couldn'ttell them.
I had to look at them.
I had to smile at them.
(08:21):
And not tell them what was goingon with their son.
Dr. Dean (08:26):
I wonder if you felt put on the spot if they asked
how he was doing.
Randye Sundel (08:31):
Well, you know, in those years, there were no
cell phones or anything.
And my brother was very clever.
And he would call my parentsfrom a landline, which is all we
had.
And he would say, I'll give youa call.
Don't call me because I'm goingskiing this weekend with my
friends.
(08:52):
And when I finally did tellthem, months later.
I flew down to tell them becausethe oncologist was concerned
that it had spread, and I saidto Mitch,"I've done everything I
could do for you, but I can'tlet Mom and Dad know the first
(09:13):
thing that they learn is thatyou're gone," because he was
going to have to start chemo andhe was really weak.
And Mitch said,"No, thank you.
Thank you." And I just went downthere and I had to tell them
what had been going on.
And my mother's going, no, he'sbeen skiing.
I said, no, Mom.
(09:34):
he's been telling you that and,and I brought them up and I
said, you can respond any wayyou want outside his hospital
room, but in that room, you havegot to hold it together because
his worst fear was not that hehad cancer.
His worst fear is what hiscancer would do to you.
(09:55):
And they were amazing.
And I was so relieved to knowthat I wasn't alone.
Dr. Dean (10:03):
He had their support through it.
Yeah.
So that was the late 70s, early80s?
Randye Sundel (10:11):
That was, it was 76 when he was diagnosed.
He died in 79.
And, I had suffered amiscarriage during his illness.
And, my brother blamed himself.
Dr. Dean (10:27):
For your miscarriage?
Randye Sundel (10:28):
From a miscarriage, which was
preposterous, but that's how hefelt, and what he did in
response, sadly, was he pushedme away.
When I became pregnant again,and so there was a period when I
just didn't see him, and myparents were with him.
(10:50):
and it was really hard.
It was really hard to not bewith him and I regret that so
much.
I understand that he did thatbecause he was protecting me
and, and my fetus.
That's what I mean aboutprotecting without having a
(11:14):
conversation about what Ineeded, which was to spend time
with him.
Dr. Dean (11:19):
Yeah.
What was your relationship likewith him before all of that?
Randye Sundel (11:25):
We shared a bedroom from the time he was
able to sleep in a bed.
We were in a two bedroomapartment.
My parents had the masterbedroom and we shared a bedroom
until, the day I turned 13 andwe moved.
into a house.
As I got older, I changed to theliving room and we had one
(11:47):
bathroom.
My brother was very energetic.
He was one of the younger kidsand he wanted to do what
everybody else was doing and heprobably was able to do it
better.
than most of us.
And so he, he would just bargehis way in.
And I remember my parents had areally hard time getting a
(12:09):
babysitter who would come back asecond time because we were all
over each other.
And ultimately my cousin who wasa few years older and lived in
the neighborhood, she just hadno choice.
She was coerced into being oursitter.
And so That's what she did.
But we loved each other.
(12:29):
We were so clear about that.
And, we used to dress up.
I got him dressing up.
We were, Dale Evans, Roy Rogers,making, making our own with
brooms, running around theliving room and doing all of
that.
And we went to summer camptogether.
And, I remember the campdirector saying, Why aren't you
(12:51):
watching your brother?
He's playing in a championshiptennis tournament, and he was,
maybe all of 12, in hisdivision.
I said, my brother doesn't playtennis.
I had no idea.
Not only did he play, he wasamazing at it.
He ended up, head of the tennisteam in college and, he was
(13:11):
really a talented athlete andhad a roommate who had been
living with bone cancer, hadlost a leg to the cancer.
And somehow my brother got himup playing tennis.
I have no idea how he did that,but he did that.
and.
Mitch and I, we would just, we'dlaugh, we'd laugh at our
(13:33):
parents.
they wouldn't wait till visitingday to come see us.
And when we got the call,somebody came to get us off a
field or whatever, because myparents decided to come up, they
just had to see us.
All the other parents weredelighted to have, eight weeks
without their children, ourparents came up and so we go to
(13:56):
the chain link fence and we'dlook at each other like, Oh my
God, this is so embarrassing.
Dr. Dean (14:01):
Was it this, at college?
Randye Sundel (14:04):
No, this was summer back to summer camp,
when, yeah, and, I'm jumpingfrom venue to venue, but I'm
just thinking about all thesememories are rushing back.
It's 45 years.
since he's gone.
and so it gets a little muddysometimes.
Dr. Dean (14:22):
Yeah, I wonder what that'ss been like for you to
have these different memories.
Do you find that they clustertogether or there's a theme or
how has that been for you overthe years?
Randye Sundel (14:34):
I think the one theme since he's gone, is my
questioning who I am.
Because I was a sister for 26years.
I was honing my skills as asister.
I loved being a sister.
And I asked myself, am I still asister if I don't have a sibling
(14:58):
who's alive?
And I didn't know how to be asingle child because that's not
who I was.
And I wasn't sure what to makeof that.
And a few weeks after my brotherdied, I gave birth to a son, I
(15:20):
just, I was not prepared to takecare of a baby.
I was just reeling fromeverything that had happened,
and that's what I mean aboutimpacting every aspect of my
life.
And it was really difficult.
(15:41):
When he was in the hospital, myhusband, I made so many demands
on him.
I said, you have to come afterwork.
You have to meet me at thehospital.
And he goes, but I'm exhausted.
I'm tired.
I'm putting in a full day.
And I'd say, yeah, but mybrother has cancer.
(16:02):
My whole life became my brother.
And it was not fair to myhusband.
It just was so important to me.
It was the most important thingin my life.
I'll tell you a little funnystory.
When I was at college and he wasin high school and he was going
(16:23):
to come up to visit me.
And, I was dating somebody whowas not treating me all that
well.
And I finally worked up thenerve to break up with him.
And when I told him we werethrough, I said, And you're
never going to meet my brother.
(16:44):
And to me, that was the worstpunishment that I could give him
because To me, my brother wasthe most precious gift, I was
going to deprive him of that.
That's the feeling, that we hadfor each other.
Dr. Dean (17:03):
That's beautiful.
I love how you've described yourrelationship with him.
I feel like I have a little bitof a sense of who he is or was.
So you took on this caregivingrole for him and it sounds like
it lasted for a few years.
Randye Sundel (17:19):
Well, the caregiving lasted with me
exclusively, for, months.
because then I got too nervous,and, And I was fighting
bureaucracy.
I was, I had to get money to payhis bills and the system just
kept letting me down and I keptthinking, who's going to help
(17:45):
me, who's going to help me.
And I think that one of thereasons that I'm writing my
story and one of the reasonsthat I want to talk to you and
add my voice to yours and agrowing group of voices is that
as a society, we have to dobetter.
(18:07):
We have to do better.
We have to figure out how wehelp each other because sooner
or later, we're all going to bein a position.
We're either, we're caregiving,or we need a caregiver, or we're
grieving, or we want to helpsomebody through the mourning
process.
I think about it as, we've gotto all get more comfortable
(18:30):
being uncomfortable.
Dr. Dean (18:32):
That wording is so perfect.
Yes, we definitely have tobecome more comfortable with the
uncomfortable.
Randye Sundel (18:40):
Because we can't help each other if we stay away
because we don't know what tosay.
I think, when people saw me asthis young woman with this young
child who had lost her brother,maybe they thought that could be
me.
(19:01):
I think that's a natural way tothink, and nobody wants to think
that,
Dr. Dean (19:09):
Right.
So, I don't know if you know thehistory of how the Industrial
Revolution impacted caregivingand death and dying.
Randye Sundel (19:18):
Tell me,
Dr. Dean (19:20):
Before that people died at home.
People were sick at home.
There was a comfort with that.
People from young ages, childrenand all the way up, knew people
that had died at home.
They watched that.
They were part of the caregivingprocess, bringing water and, all
of the things that they neededto do to make someone
comfortable in the process ofdying and in death.
(19:42):
But then it moved to hospitalsand we have separated ourselves
from that idea.
And so as a society, this isreflected because we don't talk
about death.
We're not comfortable with it.
And so we don't see it.
We're afraid of it.
And then when people arecaregiving or grieving or
mourning, we're also afraid ofthat because it's, like you
(20:02):
said, uncomfortable.
Randye Sundel (20:05):
In the.
Late 1970s, early 80s, there wasnothing in place, to, support
me, you didn't have homecomputers, you didn't have
online groups, you didn't havesupport groups.
One of the things I did, andthis was key to my making my way
forward to whatever extent was,I had an opportunity to work
(20:31):
setting up a Gilda's club
Dr. Dean (20:34):
Oh, that's lovely.
Randye Sundel (20:36):
near, near where I lived.
I had friends who were involved.
And.
I had a company, I had beenworking for a marketing agency,
closed its doors, and I justtook this on pro bono.
I did all the public relationsand media relations, and I
(20:57):
worked so hard.
My husband would say, come tobed, it's midnight, and I'd say,
no, this is really important tome, because I would have given
anything to have had that kindof infrastructure, to support
me.
And it was really interesting,Angela, because when people knew
(21:20):
that my brother was ill way backwhen and, if somebody said to
me, how's your brother doing?
I was naive.
I thought they really wanted toknow.
And I told them chapter andverse: every surgery, every
chemo, every radiationtreatment.
I quickly got the idea that,they were being polite.
(21:44):
And so then I would, if I gotthe question, I would say, not
so good or a little stronger orwhatever it was.
And I had such a need to talk.
And then I'd feel guilty becauseI'm thinking, I'm healthy.
What do I have to complainabout?
Dr. Dean (22:06):
So I know this from book knowledge, not from having
lived it from my past.
I still work with a lot ofcancer patients, but that used
to be exclusively what I did.
So the history of psychologistsand psychiatrists and social
workers in, cancer centersstarts around the same time that
your brother, was ill.
And my understanding, and maybeyou can confirm or deny this, is
(22:30):
that there was a stigma aroundcancer.
at the time too.
Randye Sundel (22:34):
Very much so.
Dr. Dean (22:35):
How did that impact you as far as being a caregiver
for him and then grieving him?
Randye Sundel (22:44):
Yeah, it was hard to say the word cancer.
It did set off all kinds ofbells and whistles in people's
minds.
Almost like you could catch it.
like it was contagious.
Even saying the word seemeddangerous in those years.
I hadn't remembered that untilyou started to talk about this.
(23:10):
And the guilt that I felt, Whywas I spared?
Why did he die?
and would I be healthy?
Would my child be healthy?
Is this genetic?
Dr. Dean (23:26):
Mm
Randye Sundel (23:28):
And it was difficult to find people who
wanted to engage with me, totalk about it.
My saving grace was my dearfriend, Joe, who was my vocal
coach and my music collaborator.
He was comfortable listening
Dr. Dean (23:50):
Mm
Randye Sundel (23:50):
and I found that through the music, I could get
my needs met.
I could be real.
I could tell the truth of what Iwas feeling.
Dr. Dean (24:05):
mmhmm
Randye Sundel (24:05):
Because I really couldn't do that around people.
I think, and you've experiencedthis with your brother Tony, and
I think when you're in thatposition, you don't want to turn
people away.
You need people in your life.
And so you're very cautious.
(24:27):
I was.
About what I said because Ididn't want anybody heading for
the hills because this was tooheavy for them to deal with.
And so I never really had thosekinds of conversations with
almost anybody.
Dr. Dean (24:43):
mmhmm
Randye Sundel (24:44):
And even my parents, we all responded
differently to my brother'sdeath.
My father did not utter mybrother's name until months
before he died.
18 years
Dr. Dean (24:58):
Mm hmm.
Randye Sundel (25:00):
When we heard him say, Mitch, we were just
stunned.
And what my father tried to do,his response was to go to his
place of worship and I think tryto bury his grief.
My mother felt betrayed and shedidn't set foot.
(25:23):
into a synagogue until my sonwas bar mitzvahed.
That was 13 years later.
And with me, I had tried tostrike a deal with God when I
knew I was likely to miscarry.
Dr. Dean (25:41):
hmm.
Randye Sundel (25:41):
And Mitch was so sick.
And I said, if you have to takethis fetus, let my brother live.
let my brother live.
I can't lose both.
And I lost both
Dr. Dean (25:56):
mm
Randye Sundel (25:57):
and I had to figure out what I was going to
do with that.
And I read Many Lives, ManyMasters by Brian Weiss, a
psychiatrist.
And when I read it, I justthought, I don't have enough
information to know what goes onand whether I can judge God.
Dr. Dean (26:23):
Mm hmm.
Randye Sundel (26:25):
And, I decided to give him a mulligan or her a
mulligan, and I thought I don'thave all the information I need,
but I believed that there was ananswer somewhere in the
universe.
I just wouldn't be able toaccess it until it was my time.
And, that was enough to let meput one foot in front of the
(26:50):
other.
So that was helpful to me.
But my mother and I would talkabout my brother.
My father could not do it.
And he developed Parkinson'sdisease.
I don't know if there was acorrelation.
My mother, who was the shy one,my father was the big
(27:11):
personality, and as he withdrew,she came forward.
And suddenly my mother wastalking to people who were in
situations like the ones we hadbeen in.
And she was trying to help them.
She was comforting them, and shewas talking about Mitch and
(27:33):
family and all the rest of this.
For me, working with Gilda'sClub, I find that when you're in
a bad place, one of the bestways to try to lift yourself up
is to help other people,
Dr. Dean (27:49):
mmhmm
Randye Sundel (27:50):
is to focus on other people and what you can do
for them.
That's what I'm hoping my bookwill do, will help people or
these kinds of conversationsthat you're having.
just having you say, tell meabout your brother is so
wonderful because we don't hearthat from people.
Dr. Dean (28:09):
Right, and I imagine you hear it less and less
Randye Sundel (28:12):
over time Of course.
And there are fewer people whoknew him, who were around.
and, so that was a gift you gaveme to just say, tell me about
Mitch.
Dr. Dean (28:23):
I'm glad that, and I will listen to you whenever you
want to talk about him.
Randye Sundel (28:27):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (28:29):
So I know what Gilda's Club is.
Our listeners may not.
I know the one here inPittsburgh the name has changed
and merged with anotherorganization.
Randye Sundel (28:36):
They've changed it to Cancer Community of
Greater, by me it was GreaterNew York and Connecticut.
And they did that, Gilda's Clubwas named for Gilda Radner, who
was a fabulous comedian andactress and famous for Saturday
Night Live.
Gilda died sadly too early ofovarian cancer, but Gilda's Club
(29:00):
was not about medical things.
Gilda's Club was all aboutcommunity.
It was an emotional and socialsupport community where people
could come and talk, and therewere, comedy, sessions.
There were people who would comein, and help you set up your day
(29:21):
so that you could functionbetter.
and, what I loved about Gilda'sClub and what I used to tell the
media who would cover Gilda'sClub is that don't say people
are battling cancer or cancer.
People are living with cancerbecause once you start putting
(29:41):
it in those terms and somebodydies, it's like they didn't
fight hard enough.
Dr. Dean (29:46):
Exactly.
Yes.
I say this all the time with mypatients.
Randye Sundel (29:50):
Right?
And I thought that's really sosmart.
So thank you for letting meexplain.
I should have explained whatGilda's Club was all about.
And now I guess as youngerpeople are coming to it.
They may not be familiar withGilda Radner.
And I guess that was the reasonfor the name change.
(30:10):
That's my understanding.
That's what they did.
but what a wonderful, I wouldurge anybody who either has a
family member or a friend andthey even had Noogie land for
kids.
So if you had, a sibling who wasliving with cancer, there was a
place for you where people knewhow to talk to you.
(30:34):
This is, this is really what weneed.
We need more of that.
We need more of that.
Dr. Dean (30:41):
There are some resources out there for siblings
whose siblings are sick or havedied.
but they're young.
What you and I have bothexperienced and many of our
listeners is that once you're anadult, there's not that support
either
Randye Sundel (30:57):
It's not top of mind, right?
That's what you say.
It's not top of mind.
Dr. Dean (31:02):
Exactly.
Randye Sundel (31:03):
People ask how your parents are doing, and they
just don't think about it.
Whenever I'm in a situationwhere people I know have lost, a
child, and there is a sibling.
I always say, I am happy to talkto your daughter who was the
(31:25):
sister.
I am happy to do that becauseshe needs attention and she
needs different kind ofattention.
And, I make it a point to alwaysask, even with caregivers,
everybody asks how the patientis.
I ask how the caregiver isdoing.
Dr. Dean (31:43):
Yeah.
I love that so much.
Randye Sundel (31:45):
It means so much.
Dr. Dean (31:47):
mmhmm
Randye Sundel (31:48):
I say that my brother's absence has had a huge
presence in my life.
And I say that, Angela, becauseI went through my parents'
illnesses alone, and I wanted totalk to him and I wanted his
advice.
(32:08):
Mitch always knew, I don't know,maybe he was here before.
I don't know, but he just seemedto have so much wisdom for a
young man.
I half joke saying that when itcame to caregiving for my
parents, the good news was thatI could make all decisions
(32:28):
unilaterally.
I didn't have a sibling who wassaying, no, don't do it that
way.
And the bad news was that I hadto make every decision
unilaterally.
It was a very lonely place tobe.
And after my brother died, I hadbeen a very self confident
(32:48):
person, and for a long time, Ijust didn't trust myself.
I didn't trust myself to raisemy son.
I didn't trust myself to makedecisions.
about what to do about myparents and their care.
I just questioned everything.
Dr. Dean (33:08):
hmm
Randye Sundel (33:09):
Because I was so sure that I could save him.
I jumped through hoops.
I did my research in libraries.
There was no Google.
Dr. Dean (33:21):
Right.
Randye Sundel (33:22):
I found, trials in Wiesbaden, Germany.
And my brother said, I'm notleaving.
I want to be here with my familyand friends.
So I got him to this renownedHodgkin's expert at Sloan
Kettering, who was not taking onnew patients.
(33:44):
And I wrote him a letter andthen he took my brother on.
But it was a bad fit
Dr. Dean (33:52):
Mm.
Randye Sundel (33:52):
because he thought my brother was not
grateful enough.
My brother said, I will tradequantity of years for quality of
life.
Put me in experimentaltreatments.
They were using interferon atthe time.
And this oncologist, justthought, no, that's not how you
(34:15):
should do it.
And my brother said, isn't it mylife?
He said to me, and I said, yes.
if you want to go elsewhere, wewill find another doctor for
you.
And, he did ask for what heneeded, my brother.
He really did ask for what heneeded.
I talked about having him not bethere.
(34:37):
That is a hole.
You know that.
That is a hole you cannot fill.
it's like you've got this jigsawpuzzle of thousands of pieces.
And there's a piece that'smissing.
And you just can't put it backtogether the way it was.
It's just impossible.
(34:58):
I couldn't process my griefbecause I kept putting out fires
for everybody.
Dr. Dean (35:02):
Mm hmm.
Randye Sundel (35:04):
What I think the conclusion I came to was That if
you don't get grief out of yourbody, it will attack your body.
And I went through a periodwhere I had awful stomach pains.
I went to see, a social worker.
She said, Randye, you haven'tgrieved.
(35:29):
And I thought, No, I reallyhaven't.
I've been trying to take care ofmy little one.
And I went to the cemetery.
My husband was going to comewith me because he was alone.
He was nervous.
So Bob was going to come with meand I said, no, because if you
(35:50):
come with me, I'm going to beworried about your response to
how I am in that situation.
So, I need to be withoutjudgment and I'll be okay.
And I drove myself out there andI went to my brother's grave and
it was like a screen test.
I just ran the gamut ofemotions.
(36:12):
I was angry at him for leavingme.
I was so, so sad, the thoughtthat he would never know his
nephew, my son, because theywould have gotten on famously.
Oh, I see so much of Mitch.
in my son, Greg.
(36:32):
and some of Mitch's friendswho've met my son, tell me the
same thing.
There is just so much of hisgoodness in him and that makes
me feel really wonderful.
But being out in that cemetery,I just decided I was just going
to be however I was.
(36:53):
And I remember sitting on thegrass.
It was like the way we used tobe when he was in my apartment.
And I was feeding him a 24 houra day, buffet, trying to fatten
him up from his radiationtreatments.
And we would just talk.
I'm just sitting there with him.
(37:13):
I'm talking to him, and therewas something really wonderful
about that awful venue.
but I was connecting with him,which is what I think I love so
much about writing about him.
(37:34):
It's like reliving all of thesepainful moments, but it's
wonderful because I'm getting tospend time with my brother
Dr. Dean (37:43):
Yeah.
Randye Sundel (37:44):
and remembering the stuff when we were young and
remembering the laughter andremembering all those things.
I tell people, Write yourmemories.
You don't have to show it toanybody, but But it's wonderful.
That connection is absolutelywonderful.
(38:05):
So that's another way I thinkthat I've tried to make myself
whole again.
I think I've learned that griefis really love.
And in the beginning.
I was so afraid to let it goIt's so scary.
Dr. Dean (38:26):
Yeah.
Randye Sundel (38:27):
because you're not sure you're going to put
yourself back together again ifyou really just let it go.
And when I was at his grave, Ijust trusted that I could put
myself back together again and Ijust bawled.
it sounds so strange, but.
(38:49):
When I woke up the followingmorning, my stomach didn't hurt
anymore.
Dr. Dean (38:53):
Yeah, I think, things we don't talk about, in addition
to grief in general, is thatthere is a physical impact.
Everyone thinks it's onlyemotional, but there are many
other aspects to grief.
Randye Sundel (39:06):
Yeah,
Dr. Dean (39:07):
Yeah.
Randye Sundel (39:08):
but you have to trust that and that's a hard
thing to do.
It's a hard thing to do becauseyou're not sure if, you're
already feeling so fragile.
And you're in such a fog.
it's a scary place to be.
But There is no other way aroundgrief.
(39:30):
And I think what felt like aboulder initially, I'm 45 years
out from his death.
my dad died in 97, my mom in2013, my husband in 2015.
And So this has been part andparcel of my life, when I feel
(39:53):
grief, because it never leavesyou, right?
what I've found is, it doesn'tscare me anymore.
And when something reminds me,when I'm in that place, I just
think, okay, I see you.
I know you're there.
And I find by doing that, I takeaway a lot of its power because
(40:19):
it's going to keep poking at meuntil I acknowledge it.
It's going to find a way to getmy attention.
And so now I just, I, Think ofit as a reminder of love that I
shared with all of these people.
And now it's like this colorfultail on a kite that just lifts
(40:45):
me up and lets me soar becausethey really are the wind beneath
my wings.
They really are.
Dr. Dean (40:54):
It's a very sad movie that was the theme song
Randye Sundel (40:56):
yeah, but It's that love that really is
powerful.
That's what the grief is.
Cause you wouldn't feel sostrongly if it was not built on
love.
Dr. Dean (41:08):
Exactly, right?
I think the saying goes, griefis love with no place to go.
And also, you lose people andyou may not be affected by it,
right?
That you're not, that you don'tlove, like people we don't know
that are in the news orwhatever.
So I think that just highlightsexactly what you're saying.
Grief is love.
Randye Sundel (41:29):
Yeah.
I think once you can make thatconnection, it's not as
frightening, it's not
Dr. Dean (41:36):
hmm.
Mm hmm.
Randye Sundel (41:37):
and when it happens, I, sometimes I think
it's that pesky mosquito.
and sometimes that mosquito isgoing to bite you, it's going to
sting, and 45 years later, itwill still sting me, and I just
acknowledge it, and I think onceyou recognize that it's on this
(42:03):
trip with you forever, thatgrief, It's not going anywhere,
and sometimes it'll rear itshead in the, at the weirdest
times.
you're standing in line to checkout at a supermarket and
something just hits you,
Dr. Dean (42:19):
Yeah Oh, it's always the grocery store.
Randye Sundel (42:21):
right?
It's the grocery store is big.
you're just watching a movie andsuddenly you're just dissolving
into a puddle.
I remember right after Mitchdied, I'd look around at people
who were behaving in terribleways to other people, and I
(42:42):
would think, my wonderfulbrother is dead, and you get to
live making people's livesmiserable.
And I was so angry, because itjust felt so unjust.
The other thing that used to getto me, I guess it still does, is
(43:02):
when I talk to people who areestranged from siblings, and for
whatever reason they've chosento have no contact.
And that breaks my heart.
Because I would give anything,to have my brother with me.
Dr. Dean (43:17):
Yeah.
I think that's a difficult onebecause sometimes there are good
reasons for people to estrangethemselves Yes
Randye Sundel (43:22):
sometimes there are.
Dr. Dean (43:24):
And yet, I talked to Brandi and I think it was the
second season of this podcast.
She was estranged from her twin.
when he died.
I know that she's stillstruggling with her grief, and
will always, right, like all ofus, and has found ways to
reconcile the estrangement afterhis death.
So I think that it'scomplicated, but I also hear
(43:45):
that, right?
We lost our siblings and thenenvy that other people still
have them
Randye Sundel (43:49):
Yes.
Dr. Dean (43:50):
and may not have a relationship with them.
I think that's a challenge
Randye Sundel (43:54):
Yeah,
Dr. Dean (43:54):
only looking at it from our perspective.
Randye Sundel (43:58):
Yeah,
Dr. Dean (44:00):
You also had anticipatory grief with, it
sounds like all of your losses.
Randye Sundel (44:05):
yes.
Oh my gosh.
Dr. Dean (44:06):
Do you want to say more about that?
Randye Sundel (44:08):
Yeah.
Ah, it is so Frustrating seeingthis car coming right at you and
there isn't a thing you can doabout it.
your life shrinks so much, it'sa slow, it's a slow death for
the person watching.
(44:30):
with my husband, my life gotsmaller and smaller because he
was ill, throughout ourmarriage.
But at the end, I knew it wascritical.
And You change because you don'thave the same relationship with
that loved one, because youcan't,
Dr. Dean (44:51):
hmm.
Randye Sundel (44:52):
you can't, you're trying to be there for them, and
in doing so, you're not takingcare of Your own needs it's a
very lonely place to be becauseagain, who are you sharing this
with?
You can't share it with theperson who's dying.
I could share with my parentswhat I needed as it related with
(45:18):
my brother as a matter of fact.
My parents were with my brother,when he died.
I was not because I had gone tosee my brother, but my parents
called and remember I was eightmonths pregnant and told me he
was gone and told me he had beencoding and when they, he coded
(45:40):
this last time, they had toldthe medical staff the next time
he codes, let him go.
Cause I said, why didn't theybring him back?
And my mother said, cause wetold him to let him go.
He was ready to go.
And I said, but I didn't givepermission.
(46:05):
I didn't give permission to lethim go.
And then I felt so much guilt.
Because they had just lost theirson, and I was directing my
anger, my sadness at them.
And then I just said, I'm sosorry, Mom and Dad, I'm so
(46:26):
sorry.
And they said, it's okay, we'llsee you tomorrow.
And they said, Randye you knewhow sick he was.
And I did, but I didn't becauseI didn't want to believe it.
I didn't want to believe it.
(46:46):
And denial is such a powerfulfeeling that we have, so you
expect it.
And it's still a shock.
It's still a shock.
and that in between time is sodifficult to navigate
anticipating what's going to benot knowing how it's going To
(47:07):
impact your life when iteventually happens.
Dr. Dean (47:11):
hmm.
Randye Sundel (47:13):
but I think when the grieving starts before
somebody is gone.
I think it's different than whenit's a shock.
they both stink.
Dr. Dean (47:24):
Of course.
Randye Sundel (47:25):
It doesn't matter.
I don't compare.
everybody's grief is valid.
And every way that someonechooses to grieve is valid.
but it's different.
It's different when you have,been processing that this is
going to occur.
(47:46):
And for me, for every one of myloved ones, I had anticipatory
grief.
Because they all had lengthyillnesses.
Nobody just went like that.
And yet you're shocked it
Dr. Dean (48:03):
course.
Yeah.
I was just actually thinkingabout this.
I don't know if I actually saidit out loud to my husband the
other day, but they released thetheme song for this podcast as a
single that you can download.
And, I was thinking very muchabout this concept too, because.
If Tomorrow Starts Without Me isthe name of the song.
(48:24):
And even though you'reanticipating it, you still,
unless it's medical aid anddying, which is not legal in
most places, you still don'tknow exactly when that time or
that day will be.
You might know within a shortperiod of time before it
happens, but you generally don'tknow.
(48:46):
Oh, in three months on thisdate, this person even in
anticipatory grief, you have noidea.
So thank you for sharing thatbecause I, it validated what I
was thinking about the otherday.
Not that I need validation, butthank you.
And it's all painful.
Randye Sundel (49:04):
Yeah.
life is everything, right?
It's every emotion.
and nobody Gets off scott free.
Gets through this life withoutpaying
Dr. Dean (49:16):
Right.
Or dying.
Randye Sundel (49:17):
nobody or dying.
Yeah, nobody.
I will tell you that my brothertold my parents that he had the
best life.
That he had the best family andthe best friends.
And I thought, how at this time,knowing he was staring death in
(49:39):
the face, he found gratitude.
And I try to find gratitude.
I really do in everything.
I try to find gratitude.
That grounds me.
and he also asked my parents ifthey had seen the movie Heaven
Can Wait, which was a remakewith Warren Beatty where, this
(50:02):
athlete is taken with amotorcycle accident and he
wasn't supposed to die.
And so they keep putting himback into other bodies, and,
finding a place.
And he tells his love interest,I may not look like me, but if
you ever come across somebodyand you just have that sense
(50:24):
that this person is familiar insome way, that might be me.
and so I have looked for thesesigns and I have seen some of
these signs where things thatwere preposterous, it didn't
(50:45):
make sense other than somehowthat was, my brother letting me
know.
When my son was bar mitzvahed,this huge snapper turtle came.
And, a Jamaican friend said, infolklore, that's, that means
something.
That's the spirit coming back.
and she said, and how amazing,because my whole family was
(51:08):
gathered.
My parents were up from Florida.
We were all together.
That was the week.
And he was with us.
Through this turtle and turtlesfollowed my son throughout his
life.
Turtle was there when he, gothis acceptance in college.
My son wore a vineyard vine tiefor his wedding that had
(51:33):
turtles.
Never having met my brother, hebrought my brother to his
wedding for my mother and forme.
That is a big regret I have thatthey never were here, not for a
moment.
And it was like my brother leftand my son arrived.
(51:55):
Sometimes I'd confuse them, I'dcall my son Greg Mitch, I would
be pitching to him on thedriveway or something and he
just morphed into my brother.
I hope I didn't put too muchpressure on, on, on my son to
live for himself and my brother.
(52:16):
Because I know I put a lot ofpressure on myself to live both
our lives.
Dr. Dean (52:20):
Mm.
Randye Sundel (52:21):
Because I was here for a reason.
I was here for a reason and hewas shortchanged.
So I had to be even better.
I was all my parents had untilthey had their grandson.
You talk about the fog of grief.
Dr. Dean (52:37):
Mm
Randye Sundel (52:38):
A few weeks after my brother died, I had my son,
and I had said to my parents, ifyou don't want to come to the
hospital if you're not able tobe in a hospital setting again.
I won't be upset with you.
You could come visit me and thebaby at home.
My mother said, No, we will bethere.
(52:59):
And my parents came.
And when I saw the look on theirface, looking at their
grandchild, I thought, What wasI thinking?
Dr. Dean (53:09):
Mm.
Randye Sundel (53:10):
I was trying to protect them.
from what I thought, would be atraumatic experience to walk
into a hospital so soon.
Dr. Dean (53:21):
Was it traumatic for you, to walk into the hospital?
Randye Sundel (53:23):
No, I don't think I felt trauma.
I think I just felt cheated.
I just felt cheated.
Here was a case where the exactremedy for my parents was coming
to the hospital and seeing theirgrandchild.
that's what gave us all this newlife, a chance you.
(53:46):
He was the hope.
He was the great hope,
Dr. Dean (53:49):
mmhmm
Randye Sundel (53:50):
but I saw it as they needed my protection and
they, they needed the opposite.
They needed the opposite.
It
Dr. Dean (54:01):
Would you mind saying more about what it was like to
be the only person taking careof your parents?
I think that is something somany of the people I've talked
to, and myself included, aredreading.
And I'm just wondering what thatwas like for you.
Randye Sundel (54:17):
It is a very lonely place to be because you
are second guessing yourself allover the place.
I don't have all the answers.
I'm trying to figure out, wherethey should be.
With my dad, we had him in anursing home.
He escaped from one.
(54:38):
We had him in another one.
But before we had him in thenursing home, my mother was
taking care of him at home, andhe would cut himself, not
intentionally, he just I didn'tknow what he was doing and he
was shaking and I'd say, Mom,how long has this been going on?
She says, it's okay.
(54:58):
I call EMS.
I said, no, we're not doing thisanymore.
And I flew them up to New York.
I met with a neurologist at amajor New York hospital.
And when I saw the condition myfather was in and what my mother
was dealing with, I said, no, nomore.
Cause I was worried about mymother.
(55:19):
Because I'm thinking, she cannotbe doing this.
And so I flew down there and wewent around and we found a place
for him.
But my mother lived in darknessduring that time.
She got up in the morning, shedidn't open the shades.
She went right to the nursinghome and she stayed there the
(55:41):
entire day until he had hisdinner.
And then she went home indarkness.
And that was her life and shedid this every day and people at
the nursing home would say, gohome, it's, he's okay, go home.
And she didn't do that.
And I was terribly worried abouther.
(56:04):
Ultimately she developedAlzheimer's.
Before I even was willing toadmit that's.
was happening to her.
I kept rationalizing herbehavior because it was
unthinkable.
My father was gone.
My brother was gone.
(56:24):
My husband never did well withdifficult subjects.
there was so much, just so muchI could talk to him about it.
I did join support groups atthat point.
I am such a believer in all ofthat.
It was really helpful, but I wasnow trying to figure out what to
(56:48):
do with mom and I wanted her tohave socialization because she
was having none.
And I wanted her to be in a safeplace, because there had been a
hurricane and I couldn't get toher.
She couldn't get to me.
She couldn't get food.
She was eating crap.
So I said, okay, mom, here's thedeal.
(57:10):
I said, if you want to stay inFlorida, you can stay in
Florida, but you must besomewhere where I know you're
safe.
And I will fly back and forth tosee you.
And, I put her in initially as,independent living.
And then I quickly saw that mymother used to do crossword
(57:30):
puzzles in ink.
The Sunday New York Times inink..
And suddenly she couldn't wrapher head around this little
abstract concept.
Dr. Dean (57:41):
Mm
Randye Sundel (57:42):
And I thought, oh no, we got a bigger problem
here.
And so we went to address allthat.
I had my cousins.
My cousin Lonnie, who babysatMitch and me when we were kids.
She was living near mom, and shewas my eyes and ears when I
wasn't in Florida.
(58:02):
And my husband was in and out ofhospital.
So I was trying to clone myself,and I just couldn't do it.
but I tried.
These were momentous decisions.
These were life and death andquality of life decisions.
And I made them by myself.
And I would try, to talk topeople who had healthcare
(58:23):
companies providing aids anddoing all of that.
to please just give mesuggestions.
What do they think?
Because I knew I didn't have theanswers, and I remember talking
to my mother's doctor and said,if she has Alzheimer's, what
should I expect?
(58:44):
And he said to me, Do you have acomputer?
Google it.
Dr. Dean (58:49):
That's horrible.
Randye Sundel (58:50):
That was horrible.
That was horrible.
Because this was a doctor whohad cared for my mom for three
or more decades.
She and my dad were one of hisfirst patients, and as soon as
her mind was declining, hedidn't want to deal with it.
(59:10):
and she thought he was a god.
My
Dr. Dean (59:13):
hmm.
Randye Sundel (59:14):
adored him, and I was terribly disappointed, so he
was not anybody I could turn to.
As I said, I had to make allthese decisions unilaterally,
and the hardest decision I hadto make for mom was after she
was falling a lot.
I watched her in rehab, and theysaid you have to decide where
(59:34):
she's going to live when werelease her.
We can't tell you when we'regoing to release her, but we
have to decide, and I thought,could I send my mom back to the
place that she had lived forfive years with people who had
watched her decline?
and might judge her and if shehad a lucid moment, how would
(59:56):
that make her feel I was goingto have to get so much more help
for her and I decided to moveher into memory care unit and
she didn't live there very long.
My cousin said, Oh, she's goingto be the most high functioning
person there.
No.
My mom knew me almost to theend.
(01:00:18):
And I remember the day she said,What was your brother's name
again?
Dr. Dean (01:00:23):
Oh.
Randye Sundel (01:00:24):
And that just ripped me apart.
And then she didn't know myname.
she knew I was somebody who, wasnice to her.
I actually had a talk with mygrown son after my mom passed to
let him know that, should thatbe my fate?
(01:00:44):
Cause I don't know, shouldAlzheimer's be my fate, what my
wishes were and that they werenot for him to beat himself up
the way I beat myself up.
I wrote it in a funny way,because obviously he did not
want to have this conversationwith me.
(01:01:05):
But, that was my way of takingcontrol of the situation while I
had the wherewithal to have it.
It was a piece I had writtenthat I think helped people and
engage in those kinds ofconversations.
These are the kinds ofconversations.
that we all need to be havingand it destigmatizes things that
(01:01:28):
illnesses and grieving andeverything that we don't talk
about that.
Dr. Dean (01:01:34):
for sure Yeah.
Thank you.
Thanatology.
It's death, dying, bereavement,and just loss in general.
The, goal there is also to makethis a little bit more normal to
talk about and support peoplewith, What would you like to say
about the book and when that'scoming out?
Randye Sundel (01:01:49):
it's been a process.
Dr. Dean (01:01:50):
I'm sure it has.
Randye Sundel (01:01:51):
I am in revisions right now because it was very
important that my vulnerabilitybe out on the page so that
people could relate.
What I realized was it was veryWhat I thought was on the page
was not on the page, because Ibasically put on a show for
(01:02:13):
myself.
The performer put on a show forherself in order
Dr. Dean (01:02:18):
Mm
Randye Sundel (01:02:19):
to function.
And so what I'm doing in theserevisions is I'm going to those
dark places that I really feltbut couldn't put out there
except through my music.
and so I think once this isdone, I will have the book that
(01:02:39):
I intended to write, which was abook that would hopefully
inspire people going throughdifficult times to feel that
there is a way through it.
But you really have to gothrough it.
You can't walk around it.
There is no possible way, toleap over it, to push it down,
(01:03:04):
because it's gonna pop up.
and I've found a way to finallychoose me.
I am living in a way that Icould not live for many decades
of my life.
I joke to people.
I say I'm living in a hurrybecause there's so much I want
to do.
And I am throwing caution to thewind.
(01:03:27):
You asked me what I liked.
Absolutely.
I would like to do and, have aconversation with you.
I'm trying to make a difference.
That's important to me.
this book is my legacy and italso honors my family, my loving
family.
(01:03:47):
because, I was one of the luckyones.
Not everybody has a family, thatgives them unconditional love
and mine did.
It doesn't spare you fromheartbreak.
Dr. Dean (01:03:59):
Yeah.
Randye Sundel (01:04:00):
That's gonna find you.
but I think it helps.
If you've been reading books,there are so many authors now
who are talking about grief insuch positive and honest ways.
Colin Campbell wrote, Findingthe Words, and I've spoken with
him.
Colin, is saying to people,don't be afraid to tell me about
(01:04:25):
the person you knew who I loved,whether it's my children or my
brother, because You're notgoing to make me sad.
I'm already sad.
Dr. Dean (01:04:35):
Exactly.
We're already thinking aboutthem and sad.
Yeah.
Randye Sundel (01:04:39):
I know that they're gone.
Boy, it's wonderful, as you saidto me, tell me about your
brother.
It's wonderful to ask peoplethat question.
Because we want to talk aboutthem.
You want to talk about Tony.
Dr. Dean (01:04:56):
Yeah.
for sure.
On that vein, let's switch to,and I know you've shared a lot
already of these, but do youhave any favorite memories that
you want to share with us?
Randye Sundel (01:05:06):
I told you Mitch was very wise.
I was talking with him, tellinghim, this is when I had a
college roommate who just abusedme.
and I was telling my father, Isaid, I just feel like she
treats me like I'm the doormatand my dad.
in his form said, turn the othercheek, Randye and I'm going, no
(01:05:29):
dad, it doesn't feel right.
I shouldn't have to put up withthis.
And I'm telling Mitch and Mitchsays to me, Randye he says,
what's the matter with you?
He said, why must you try topersuade dad that he's wrong and
you're right.
He says, you know what I do?
(01:05:50):
I tell dad something.
He tells me what I should do.
I go, good idea, dad.
And I do what I want.
And I said, that's brilliant.
That's brilliant.
It would never have occurred tome to just not have to win this
battle.
Just do.
(01:06:11):
what feels right to me.
So that was just one of thewonderful memories and also Not
a wonderful memory, but I holdon to it because it's really the
last one I had.
I was able to visit my brotherwhen I was eight months
pregnant.
It didn't occur to me that hewas saying, yes, come, because
(01:06:32):
he knew he was dying.
It didn't occur to me.
I was just so happy that I wasgoing to get to see him.
And he looked great.
He had the nurses shave him.
They prettied him up.
He had a smile on his face.
We were laughing and joking.
And I thought, I know what myparents are telling me, but
(01:06:54):
maybe it's going to be allright.
Maybe it's going to be allright.
And he hadn't seen me sopregnant because he kept me
away.
And he goes, when's the babydue?
And I said, five weeks.
And he goes.
Oh, that's a long time.
And I said, what do you mean?
(01:07:15):
I've got a million things to do.
Not realizing he was saying, I'mnot not going to be here.
And all he wanted to know frommy parents when they gave him
permission to go was that Iwould be okay, my baby would be
(01:07:39):
okay, my husband would be okay,and our parents would be okay.
That's what he needed.
He needed permission, but heneeded to know we were going to
be okay.
And my parents gave himpermission, which is something
I've done for a lot of people,friends and all, at the end,
(01:08:03):
because I find people do needthat.
It gives them peace of mind toknow that their loved ones will
be okay.
Not that we can know forcertain, but we give that to
them.
And from my brother, when Iwasn't singing and he wanted to
know why I wasn't singing.
And I said, I just don't havethe confidence.
(01:08:25):
I'm tense about it.
What if I bomb?
And he goes, yeah, let's say yougo out on stage, Randye and you
stink up the place.
He said, is your husband, Bobgoing to leave you?
Are your friends gonna walk theother way, cross the street, not
to be And he got me laughing.
And he said, What's the worstthing that could happen?
(01:08:48):
If you really did something andyou failed, what's the worst?
And I hear his voice in my headevery time I put myself in a
position.
should I try this?
Should I take a risk and dothis?
Should I try, should I letmyself maybe fall in love again?
Which I did.
(01:09:11):
I hear that voice in my head,What's the worst thing that
could happen?
And It just lifts me up.
It's like a big hug.
And when I think of my brother,that's, just feel that big hug.
Dr. Dean (01:09:27):
Thank you for sharing that.
and sharing
Randye Sundel (01:09:29):
you for giving me a chance to, the book is giving
me time with him.
You've given me more time withhim, I'm very grateful
Dr. Dean (01:09:39):
You're welcome.
And I want to say that you saidearlier that you hope you make a
difference in people's lives AndI can tell you already, this
conversation has made adifference for me.
So
Randye Sundel (01:09:50):
Oh,
Dr. Dean (01:09:51):
Thank you,
Randye Sundel (01:09:52):
Thank you, Angela.
That means everything.
That means everything.
Dr. Dean (01:09:55):
You're welcome.
/Thank you so much forlistening.
Our theme song was written byJoe Mylward and Brian Dean and
was performed by Fuji Sounds(feat.
MYLWD.).
If you would like moreinformation on The Broken Pack™,
go to our website,thebrokenpack.
com.
Be sure to sign up for ournewsletter, Wild Grief™, and to
learn about opportunities andreceive exclusive information
and content, as well as grievingtips for subscribers.
(01:10:18):
Information on that, our socialmedia and on our guest can be
found in the show notes whereveryou get your podcasts.
Please like, follow, rate,subscribe, and share.
Thanks again.
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