December 6, 2023 • 54 mins
Sibling Loss and Organ Donation: A Conversation with Kelly Stiffler
In this episode, Dr. Dean speaks with Kelly Stiffler about losing her younger brother, Josh, from a seizure. Josh was an organ donor and Kelly shares how this loss has affected her and the family. We also explore how different roles and relationships mean grieving the same person differently, including how she is grieving differently from her sister, Kate who we heard from in the first episode of this season.
Dr. Dean and Kelly discuss how therapy can be a valuable resource to process sibling loss and a safe and supportive space to talk about her grief. They also discuss the physical symptoms of grief, emotional exhaustion, and brain fog.
To learn more about organ and tissue donation and to become a donor, please see:
In the US:
1. Donate Life America: https://donatelife.net
2. United Network for Organ Sharing (UNOS) - https://unos.org/transplant/facts/
For a list of organ donation organizations and informationby regions in the world, please see https://tts.org/isodp-resources/isodp-organ-donation-societies
If you would like more information or to share your own adult sibling loss story, please contact me, Dr. Angela Dean, at contact@thebrokenpack.com or go to our website, thebrokenpack.com.
Please like, subscribe, and share!
Please follow us on social media:
Facebook: @BrokenPack
Instagram: @thebrokenpack
TikTok: @the_broken_pack
YouTube: @thebrokenpack
Sign-up for Wild Grief™, our newsletter: https://thebrokenpack.com/newsletter
Thank you!
Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT
Credits:
The Broken Pack™ Podcast is produced by 27 Elephants Media
"If Tomorrow Starts Without Me" © ℗ 2023, 2024
Written by Joe Mylward and Brian Dean
Performed by Fuji Sounds (feat. MYLWD.)
Licensed for use by The Broken Pack™
Now available on all streaming platforms including Apple Music & Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/3vx3kk46
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Dean (00:12):
Hello and welcome to the Broken Pack, a podcast
focused on giving adultsurvivors of sibling loss, a
platform to share their storiesand to be heard.
Something that many sibling losssurvivors state that they never
have had.
Sibling Loss is Misunderstood™.
The Broken Pack exists to changethat and to support survivors.
(00:32):
I'm your host, Dr.
Angela Dean.
Today I spoke to Kelly aboutlosing her brother suddenly to a
medical incident.
He was an organ donor, his nameis Josh, and this story may
sound familiar, as I spoke withher sister earlier this season.
What's interesting is to hearthe differences and how Kelly
(00:53):
grieved from her sister Kate, sotake a listen, but also know
that we do plan to bring themtogether and have a conversation
next season about how they'redifferent and how they're doing
now.
(01:14):
Hello and welcome to the show.
I will let you introduceyourself.
Kelly Stiffler (01:20):
Okay, I'm Kelly Stifler.
I am a teacher, a mom to a 14year old just recently.
lover of sports and all things,I guess.
Dr. Dean (01:32):
Awesome.
What kind of sports?
Just outta curiosity.
Kelly Stiffler (01:35):
we're currently very much football parent and,
wrestling mom.
Dr. Dean (01:43):
Fantastic.
and obviously a sibling losssurvivor as we're here talking
today.
before we talk about losing yourbrother, I wondered what you
want us to know about Josh.
Kelly Stiffler (01:56):
Josh was kind of a crazy kid growing up, loved
every minute of just harassinghis big sister.
I am four years older than him.
I remember not so much when hewas born.
But I remember, the years afterthat, and, the time he, my mom
thought he broke my nose becauseshe wanted two minutes a piece
(02:17):
in the bathroom and he swung hismusical box rabbit and hit me
right smack dab in the face andgot me in the nose.
And the time that I broke hisfingers in the car door, cause
he was not where he was supposedto be.
And he came behind me to get inthe car and he was supposed to
be with mom.
he never really let me live thatdown, even though I don't think
he was old enough to rememberthat.
(02:40):
but obviously that story hadcome out multiple times and he
always sucked those middle twofingers and those were the
middle two fingers I broke.
yeah, he didn't let that go verywell.
and as we grew up.
he was just a good big brotherto my little sister Katie's 10
years younger than I am sixyears younger than.
Josh, but I remember going tosomething in eighth grade and my
(03:02):
mom having to like hire one ofthe neighbor boys to babysit
because she was afraid those twowould like just throw down or
burn the house down orsomething.
even though Josh was old enoughto like stay home for an hour
with her they were definitelynot in the space to stay home
together.
Obviously that changed as theygot older.
But as I went to college andthings like that, I knew he was
(03:24):
always super proud of me.
and he just turned into thislike amazing advocate for
people.
my dad was a special ed teacherand worked in a self contained
building until I was a junior inhigh school.
And so I think we grew up withthat, Advocacy and, everyone is
a person and all humans arehumans.
And, so he just turned intothat, he worked for, an agency
(03:49):
that cared for special needsclients.
And, so he was a huge advocate,would help parents at schools
with IEP meetings and differentthings.
And then, I saw a different sideof Josh when my son Kale was
born, so that made him an unclefor the first time.
And he was just so proud of Kaleevery time.
(04:10):
He talked to him and remember hecomes in and he goes, how does
your son know what an octagonis?
And I was like, I don't know whyhe goes, I don't know, but he
just showed me what an octagonwas.
And little do I know, two dayslater I watch and it's, Mickey
mouse clubhouse, right?
Like I didn't teach him that.
So that was much different forme.
so he was just all thingsamazing.
Dr. Dean (04:34):
Sounds like a great brother and a great uncle.
Kelly Stiffler (04:37):
yeah.
And then he became a dad andthat changed, then he was even
better.
Dr. Dean (04:42):
What was your relationship like with him as
adults?
Because I assume you stoppedbreaking Bones by accident.
Kelly Stiffler (04:48):
we did definitely stop breaking bones
by accident.
I would say, that typicalsibling relationship that you
have, and then he was veryprotective when he knew I had
met my husband.
I met my husband online.
and so then he called my cousinwho was a police officer.
And he's like, how do we findout if this guy's decent?
what do we do?
so very protective still, eventhough, I was older.
(05:11):
And then I remember very vividlyhaving a dream that he was,
dropped out of school and,making some poor choices and.
I hadn't seen him in a while.
And I ran into him randomly in aparking lot.
And I was like, wait, I need toask you a question.
Are you doing this?
And he's no, why?
I was like, did you quit school?
He's like, how do you know?
Don't tell mom and dad.
(05:32):
And I was like, okay.
And then he's like, how do youknow that?
I was like, I just had a dream.
And I remember you like tellingme these things.
And he's okay, don't tell momand dad.
I'm not ready to tell them.
I'm like, okay, I won't tellthem.
So that continued and he justreally struggled to find his
place.
Like in schooling school washard.
because not cause he wasn'tsmart.
(05:52):
Cause he's incredibly smart, butbecause he didn't want to play
the game.
He didn't want to jump throughthe hoops.
Like, why would I do homework ifI know how to do it?
so he went back and during theCOVID pandemic and probably
within the year of him passing,he got his BA degree, from
Western.
And so that was awesome for him,to have that diploma and that
(06:14):
graduation.
And then that allowed him to getthat final job that he had right
before he passed.
but we had a great relationship.
I would say not every day did wetext, but like randomly, that
kind of stuff, but definitelytext all the time about our
kids.
Cause you know, then once youwatch your brother become a dad,
it just changes everything andthey had to fight so hard to
(06:36):
have the kids.
so that was definitely a funside as we all became parents, I
remember when we had kale, wewould just take kale to
everything.
Cause he was like, the firstgrandchild and then also the
first cousin to have a kid thatlived locally on my dad's side
of the family and I rememberabout six months into my brother
(06:56):
having the twins he's like wewere kind of dicks like we went
to the breweries we went to thewineries and we just wanted you
to bring him with you and youdid but like we did not
recognize how much harder it isto do this with kids and how
maybe that's not the place youwant to go so You know, like
that self reflection was alwaysa big piece with him.
Dr. Dean (07:19):
hmm.
thank you for sharing that.
what would you like to shareabout losing him?
Kelly Stiffler (07:26):
it was a shock.
my little sister was verypregnant and I remember my
school is two stories and I wasstanding upstairs outside, right
before school started talkingto, some of my colleagues and my
phone rang and I looked downand, It was my sister and I was
like, Ooh, maybe baby's coming.
cause we were close enough thatit was definitely safe.
(07:47):
It was a little early.
and then she shared that he hadgone into cardiac arrest, from
the sudden medical incident.
And, I just was in shock anddidn't really know what to do.
And was like talking to her onthe way down the hall and went
down the steps one of thecounselors in my buildings like,
hey, let's come in here.
let's come in here.
(08:09):
And so I finished my call withmy sister found my principal and
my assistant principal.
And I'm like, I gotta go.
I don't know what's going on.
so I got my son and my husbandso we went to the Quad Cities
and.
had to break all the rulesbecause it was still very much
COVID time with limits in thehospitals and there was already
too many people there and blah,blah, blah.
(08:30):
But whatever, I, that's one ofthe most frustrating pieces of
his story is that piece, therecan only be two people in there
at a time.
And I'm like, he's dying.
but I know we had to beconscious of the people in the
other rooms.
So that was hard for all of us.
But, my husband jokes that hecouldn't believe how well I
(08:51):
could tell a lie because thesecurity guard was like, he has
to be 14.
And I was like, he is, and, heturned 14 last week, so he
wasn't clearly 14.
Dr. Dean (09:03):
But he knew your brother well.
Kelly Stiffler (09:05):
yeah.
Oh yeah.
fortunately for him, he has allthese memories of Josh.
Unfortunately for him, his kidsand my sister's kids are not
going to have the same memoriesthat Kale has.
Dr. Dean (09:21):
Yeah.
Kelly Stiffler (09:22):
so I feel incredibly blessed as the big
sister that he got to spend allthat time with him and, they
would come up and babysit himsometimes, or, just the times
that he did spend with them.
so then he was in the hospitalfor about a week.
Because.
he always wanted to be an organdonor, I think since 14 on when
(09:43):
you register in the state ofIowa to get your permit that was
checked.
Yes.
On his driver's license.
I think he was like, if I can'thave him, why shouldn't someone
else?
and so his wife consented tothat.
And then for those that don'tknow, that's a super long
process.
so they have to declare you deadin the hospital.
(10:05):
but then keep you alive,obviously, to harvest your
Dr. Dean (10:09):
Right.
Kelly Stiffler (10:10):
So the incident happened on a Monday, and they
didn't harvest his organs tillFriday.
So that's a lot of like, waitinggame and that limbo, and you
know he's gone, but physicallyhe's still there.
my sister and I have coined thatDead Brother Week.
Which some people look at uslike we're insane, but you got
(10:31):
to do what you got to do to getby.
And, all of us have differentdays of when was his actual
final day.
So it's that week.
And then they were able to find,recipients for his heart and his
lungs.
and his kidneys, and thenobviously bone and tissue as
well, and corneas.
So that was awesome.
Dr. Dean (10:52):
Awesome.
And also, like you said, there'sa whole week of, you're just
waiting.
It sounds like.
Kelly Stiffler (10:59):
Yeah, and I don't know if you weren't super
close to us, or checking in withus daily, you may not have even
known, what the process that wasgoing on or that kind of thing.
and you shut down to a littlebit as a family, like my little
sister found an Airbnb in theQuad Cities and we just stayed
(11:21):
there with her.
And her four boys, four now, buther son at the time and her
husband and my husband and mykid and my parents live in town,
and then our friends from highschool that, were around rallied
around us and drop stuff offand, tried to help pick up the
pieces wherever we could.
But yeah, it was, an intenseweek of lots of questions.
(11:45):
It was really important to myparents.
They really wanted, him toreceive, or for someone to
receive his heart.
That was really important to myparents.
and I have to say the Iowa organdonor network nurses and people
that were in the hospital weresuper fabulous and very aware.
And one night I was laying inthe Airbnb and my, I got a text
(12:07):
and it was like one or two inthe morning and she, it was one
of the nurses or.
I don't know if they weretechnically a nurse or, but does
the organ donation placement onJosh's case.
And she's like, are you awake?
And I was like, yeah, of course.
And so she called and it was themiddle of the night.
And she's like, Hey, I think wefound a match for your brother's
(12:28):
heart.
And I was like, that'sspectacular.
She's the only problem is thatit will back up.
Like we really wanted it done byFriday morning.
Like my sister in law was justready.
She was torn between being withher kids and with him.
All of us were torn between thetwo places.
And so she's like, but theycan't probably be at the
(12:49):
hospital until about two.
Because something I didn't knowis it's very common for the
heart surgeons to fly in.
And they actually remove theheart and then take it with
them.
and it has to be with like in afour hour window, or otherwise,
the heart isn't good I guess.
it had to be like a Midwestperson.
(13:10):
And that pushed it back to theafternoon and she's like, is
that going to be a problem?
I can't get a hold of your momor your sister in law.
and I was like, that's goodnews.
That must mean they're bothsleeping.
So that's fantastic.
Cause I don't think they hadslept much.
And then I was like, no, it'snot going to be a problem.
You're telling me that.
if we are selfish as a familyand say that it has to be done
by 10 or 11, someone doesn't geta heart and his heart goes in
(13:32):
the garbage.
no, that's ridiculous.
Like we are,
Dr. Dean (13:36):
Right.
Kelly Stiffler (13:37):
too important.
And so like, I just textedeverybody after I got off the
phone with her and I was like,they found a heart.
It's going to push everythingback.
I told them that was okay.
I hope that's okay with you.
and that's where we were withthat.
they did have a liver transplantrecipient ready, but then
something either on Josh's endor on the recipient, we don't
(14:00):
know.
It ended up not being viable,but like the kidneys went, the
lungs went.
And then my sister has writtenthat heart donor and received a
letter back and he's got youngkids too.
So like, how in the world couldwe knowingly be like.
No, we want this done, which,you very much do want it done.
but it was a good process.
Dr. Dean (14:23):
Were you there when he had his final?
I don't know what they callthat.
Kelly Stiffler (14:27):
The honor walk.
Yep.
it was much shorter than Ianticipated.
I don't know in my head, Ienvisioned it to be parade, like
we're going to go through thewhole hospital, but you really
don't go that far, but it wasvery
Dr. Dean (14:41):
Mm hmm.
Kelly Stiffler (14:42):
awesome to see all the people out in the
halls., I don't know how they doit in all hospitals, but they
make an announcement and thenyou, walk behind him.
yeah, it was pretty darn cool tosee those people come out and
just pay their respects becausethe heart donor nurses and
people there did say, he's ararity.
(15:05):
a lot of times you don't havesomeone that can donate so many
organs and so many things andhelp save so many
Dr. Dean (15:11):
Mm
Kelly Stiffler (15:12):
cause essentially when I was talking
to her on the phone, the onething that didn't work for him
at that point was his brain,right?
Everything else was working withmachines.
Dr. Dean (15:20):
hmm.
Right.
Kelly Stiffler (15:22):
it was awful.
cause you knew that was lasttime you were gonna.
see his physical body.
but he deserves that becausehe's saving all those people.
Dr. Dean (15:33):
yeah.
Kelly Stiffler (15:34):
Sorry.
Dr. Dean (15:36):
How incredible.
Oh, please don't apologize.
It seems normal that you wouldbe having emotions talking about
that.
what was it like in the, daysand weeks after that for you?
Did you?
go back to work or?
Kelly Stiffler (15:48):
yeah.
So I didn't work that wholeentire, like, as we've coined
it, dead brother week.
And then his memorial servicewas that following Monday.
and then, I didn't go back towork to Day, but I went back to
work Wednesday, Thursday,Friday, I had more time.
Like I could have stayed home alittle bit longer.
(16:09):
but it was spring break thatfollowing week.
Cause I'm a teacher and I waslike, if I don't go back in and
do something and just at leastsee people, I'm going to have a
heck of a time going back afteranother full week off.
Cause that would have been threeweeks off.
So I figured it was a nice,good, soft start to get me.
a little bit back to some sortof normalcy.
(16:32):
So that was good.
I needed that, was it hard andwas I just going through the
motions?
100%.
but it allowed me to show up formy kids, my students to see that
I was okay.
cause they didn't really haveany heads up that I was going to
be gone.
Cause clearly we didn't.
And then, I think people finallytold them what was going on, but
(16:52):
they wanted to make sure like Iwas good with that and things
like that.
I have some incredible notes inmy box from students and staff.
And if I wasn't in the buildingthat I was in.
I don't know if I could havegone back to work, but like they
just.
pick you up and, make sureyou're safe.
And, I remember there's a book,it's a great book by, it's
(17:14):
called crossover, spoiler alert,the dad dies in it, and goes to
the hospital.
And I've read that book out loudso many times to kids and we
were reading it out loud and Iliterally.
I don't know what, I don't knowif it was divine intervention.
I didn't read out loud that dayand I almost always in my co
taught classes offer to read outloud because the teachers have
(17:36):
to read it five times and I'monly in there once so let's give
you a break but I didn't read itout loud that day which was good
and I literally looked at herand I was like I gotta go and I
went to the counseling officebecause it was just the whole,
was he going to live?
Was he not going to live kind ofthing in the book?
And although it was this kid'sdad and that it was just too
(17:57):
fresh, too new.
but like knew that and theyjust, picked up the pieces.
I think at home I was unbearableat days.
I would guess that my husbandand my son would tell you very
irritable, quick to snap.
And when I finally went totherapy for the first time, my
therapist is like, well, that'sbecause they love you and
(18:18):
they're still going to be theretomorrow.
And you can't do that at work,or you're going to lose your
job.
And you don't do that to yourfriends because you still want
to have friends.
And I was like, Oh, and justthat awareness.
Of her, telling me that so thatlike, when I got home, I could
try.
No, I'm still not perfect by anymeans.
(18:38):
and have better days and weeksthan I have, but just try not to
be, I only had, he's only in myhouse five more years before he
goes to college.
I don't want that relationshipto be cruddy because of
everything that's happened in mylife.
Dr. Dean (18:53):
Mhm.
I love that you were able to getthat perspective.
it's sometimes hard to whenwe're in grief and we don't know
why we're irritable, or we mightbe, but then it comes out in
ways that we're unaware.
what grade do you teach?
Kelly Stiffler (19:10):
teach, so the year that he passed, I.
Was a seventh grade special edteacher.
And then I rotate with thosekids.
So last year I was in eighthgrade and then this year I'm
back in seventh grade.
it'll be interesting to see howit goes.
I'm back in the exact same roomand the exact same wing.
Cause I move rooms every year.
So I am back in that exact samelocation.
So it'll be interesting to seehow the month of February,
(19:33):
March, April, May, June go,cause that will
Dr. Dean (19:38):
Mhm.
Kelly Stiffler (19:38):
reliving all that trauma,
Dr. Dean (19:41):
And he died in 2021.
Kelly Stiffler (19:44):
Yes.
Yep.
It'll be two years in February.
or March,
Dr. Dean (19:49):
Mhm.
Kelly Stiffler (19:49):
you are.
Dr. Dean (19:51):
Does your family have different views of that
Kelly Stiffler (19:53):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (19:54):
When he died,
Kelly Stiffler (19:56):
I think for my sister in law, at least the last
time we talked about it, I thinkhers is like the day that it
happened in their home together,where I think my mom's might be
either the same as my sister andI's or it also might be she was
there.
they have to declare you dead.
And so she was there during thetest to verify that he was dead.
(20:18):
And so for her, I could see thatit would be that day.
cause that's a different daythan when they, we said goodbye
to him.
And so like mine is that day,the last day I like saw his
physical body.
cause I saw him most days thatweek.
I think I saw him every day thatweek.
So cause on that Monday, then wecame back home.
I didn't go back to school, butmy son went back to school for a
(20:40):
couple of days.
and then I think they came downeither Wednesday or Thursday of
that week.
And then we all stayed at theAirbnb together.
and did some stuff and we wentdown Tuesday and my sister
wasn't there because it's alonger drive for my sister but
then we were with my sister inlaw and my parents when they
told the kids that Josh hadpassed away.
(21:00):
we were in the Quad Cities everyday that week whether we were
staying the night or not.
yeah, we do all have I thinkdifferent.
and I don't know what the kids,what her kids, my brother's kids
will have is there, I don't knowthat they have any awareness of
the actual timeframe or the day.
So I don't know what that willlook like for them as they grow
older.
Dr. Dean (21:19):
we often talk about anniversaries with grief and how
that is challenging It soundslike the whole week must be some
sort of anniversary.
Kelly Stiffler (21:28):
Yeah.
definitely there's stuff everyweek and like my, again, my
principal.
is really great.
And so like we talked and, withmy therapist about days that
we're going to be triggering ordays, maybe I wouldn't be my
greatest teacher.
Dr. Dean (21:42):
Mm hmm
Kelly Stiffler (21:43):
I took that Monday.
It ended up being a Tuesday, butI took it that Tuesday this last
week, last year off.
And then the Friday, and thenthe Friday I went and spent with
my sister.
my kid stayed here and went toschool.
Her kids were in daycare.
And then we went and we actuallygot tattoos together.
and so I would assume,
Dr. Dean (22:03):
honoring Josh or
Kelly Stiffler (22:04):
Yeah.
Yep.
we both got, kiddos and then shehad already gotten her cardinal
tattoo with her guy and then Iwanted one.
and I really liked what he did.
And so then I got that one aswell with him, I didn't have a
tattoo till Josh and so it wasfun for just the two of us to
go.
And then when we went out forlunch and then.
(22:26):
Rowan is her son and he's allthings Aunt Kelly some days and
so we had a great time with,just hanging out and playing
with him and seeing the baby.
yeah, it needed to be done.
I think one of the things thatmaybe Is lost a little bit in
sibling grief is you find thatyou're picking up the pieces
(22:49):
for, trying to help your parentsor trying to help your sister in
law and her kids, and thenworrying about your own kid,
even though like he apparentlyis fine, I've stopped asking
because he's a middle school kidand whatever he says, he's fine.
So hopefully at some point, ifhe's ever not fine, he'll tell
us.
yeah.
Apparently, according to mycounselors, that's a very
(23:09):
standard response.
it's not here in the moment inhis face.
So it's not in his brain.
And I'm like, okay, I'm gladthat he can.
I'm glad he can think that way.
I can't.
so I think that was lost on us.
And so that day before I wenthome on.
Whatever the next day was welike sat in her kitchen and
she's like, we really haven'ttalked about Josh you know, you
(23:33):
tell stories when we're alltogether, but so that was really
a good empowering time where wehad those emotions and talked
about that kind of thing.
Because, while my parents, mymom was incredibly strong, and I
am pretty sure that I would haveto be locked up in a mental
institution, if it was me.
(23:54):
But, you still worry about them.
they went and did the funeralarrangements.
And so I was like, I'm going togo with you, I don't want you to
have to do this by yourself, andthings like that.
And you just forget to mayberemember that you need to look
at him as a sibling sometimes,because you're worried about
everyone else, which then, Ithink makes your grief a
(24:16):
thousand times worse when ithits you.
Dr. Dean (24:19):
so many people I've talked to talk about, and myself
included, that especially inthose first few weeks or months,
you're very worried about yourparents and taking care of them,
which kind of reinforces thisidea that other people have that
our grief is less, but it's notless, it's just different,
right?
But we somehow also fall intothat internalized belief, taking
(24:40):
care of everyone.
it's hierarchy.
Kelly Stiffler (24:43):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (24:44):
How has your relationship been with your
parents?
Kelly Stiffler (24:47):
my therapist would just say that's who I was
before too, was taking care ofeveryone else.
So she's like, it justmanifested and made it a whole
lot harder.
my relationship with my parentsis great.
unfortunately, COVID was adisaster in our family.
obviously couldn't stop working.
When we went back to work asteachers, my husband manages.
(25:08):
A local branch of FedEx.
So he never stopped working.
In fact, he was busier duringCOVID because it was so busy.
my sister and her husband wereable to work from home.
my son is a social being withonly one child at home and he
was tired of his mom.
So we obviously sent him back toschool.
and my, brother, they chose tostay home and my parents did as
(25:33):
well, I feel like, you kind ofgot robbed of some of that time
because of COVID.
Dr. Dean (25:38):
Mm hmm,
Kelly Stiffler (25:39):
but, you have to just work through that process
as well.
my relationship with my parentsis great.
It's sometimes I feel badbecause I probably don't reach
out as much as I should becauseI'm in my own grief.
So sometimes you don't want toadd grief to your own grief and
(26:00):
they don't do that.
that's not even who they are.
So I don't know why I feel thatway, but you just do.
Dr. Dean (26:07):
Mm
Kelly Stiffler (26:07):
they just came up last week to watch my son
play football because that wasone of the things my dad's I
miss so much watching kill playfootball and wrestling because
of this stupid COVID.
And so They came up last weekand then he's like, if it's nice
in two weeks, we're coming upagain.
And so there's just that regretalso so many people died from
(26:28):
COVID.
So you totally get it too, butnow that it's over and you can't
do it over because you think ofthe time you're going to have
years with everyone.
Dr. Dean (26:40):
Which is such a hard lesson when we lose people
unexpectedly and out of order.
Kelly Stiffler (26:46):
Correct.
Yeah.
You don't really realize thatthere's a death order.
Until something happens and it'sout of order.
Dr. Dean (26:55):
Right.
In the grief literature andworld, we call that out of order
loss.
Quite literally what it'scalled.
Kelly Stiffler (27:05):
it makes total sense.
And it's that you don't reallyknow realize until it happens to
you.
And also you realize you weren'tyour best friend to people that
have gone through this before,like you thought you were doing
the thing.
But you have no flipping ideawhat people actually really
need.
And I think you realize quicklyevery person is different.
(27:29):
One of the best things we got,when my brother passed was the
two counselors and thecounseling secretary, and
they're all very good friends ofmine.
they sent me a DoorDash giftcard.
And while that seems supertrivial to some people, it was
the greatest thing.
We came home that first nightfrom being in the Quad Cities
(27:51):
and Chad's we don't havegroceries.
Like we don't have food.
We haven't been here for a week.
what do you want for dinner?
Do you want to go somewhere?
I was like, I don't want to seepeople.
And so we could pick from allthese restaurants, ordered
DoorDash, had it delivered.
I didn't, I put leave on thefront porch.
I didn't even have to talk tothe delivery driver.
It was so.
empowering for something thatsimple to go that far because,
(28:16):
they did a meal train for mylittle, for my sister in law and
they did some stuff for myparents as well, like her, their
church, but My sister in lawdidn't want to see people, so
they had the meals dropped offat someone else's house and then
that person would bring themover.
So now that's like my go to giftwhen someone is having something
going on is, and it's so simplebecause you can text it to them.
(28:38):
You don't need their mailingaddress.
You don't need anything.
And then they can feel that theydon't have to go out and do
something, right?
they don't have to see people ifthey don't want
Dr. Dean (28:48):
Right.
Kelly Stiffler (28:48):
to people.
Dr. Dean (28:50):
for sure, I love it too because other guests and I
have joked about, it's nice whenpeople want to bring you food,
but then you end up with Afreezer full of food or things
that you may or may not eat.
So the DoorDash gives you the,or the delivery of some sort,
gives you that opportunity tochoose.
Yeah.
What a great, great gift.
(29:10):
And also it sounds like yourfriends, especially being
counselors, understood how tosupport you and just even
emotionally when you went backto work.
Kelly Stiffler (29:18):
Oh, yeah.
they sent the emails for me toKale School because I was like,
I, and I wanted to make surenobody pulled him out of class
or any of that kind of thingbecause he would be so mad if
someone pulled him out of classto talk about that.
But the gym teacher there, itwasn't his gym teacher, but is
also one of his wrestlingcoaches.
And I was like, so please makesure he knows because that would
(29:40):
be one of the people that killwould talk to if he was, if he
wanted to talk to somebody oralso his teachers.
My building got split up and soboth his teachers were friends
of mine from, when they were inmy building.
I wanted to make sure that theright people knew and they
handled all of that for me.
(30:01):
yes, very fortunate.
lots of people.
And not just them, but lots ofpeople picked up.
and did things for me.
one of my friends I had taughtwith who had reached, who had
retired and was subbing, shewent and subbed in my classroom
and I was like, I'll try to getyou lesson plans tonight.
she's absolutely not.
She's like, I will get in there.
I will figure it out.
I will talk to the teachersaround you.
(30:22):
You just need to be with yourfamily.
And just those little blessingsthat they don't even maybe know
was such a blessing, was a hugeblessing.
Dr. Dean (30:32):
Mm-Hmm.
Kelly Stiffler (30:33):
it was good.
Dr. Dean (30:35):
Do you feel still supported in the same way?
Kelly Stiffler (30:39):
yes, but sometimes I think, I don't want
my friends to listen to this andthink Oh, we don't do a good job
supporting her, because that'snot what I'm saying.
But sometimes I feel like thatsupport fades or sometimes
you'll still get the questionlike, how are your parents?
How's your sister in law?
How are the babies?
And then you're like, wait, youmissed the, how are you
(31:01):
question?
and Which I do appreciate peoplecaring about all of those
people.
That is incredibly important aswell.
but I also, sometimes I'm like,I am not good, but if you're not
going to ask, I'm not going totell you because I don't reach
out.
I don't ask for help.
Dr. Dean (31:19):
Well, and that speaks to you being the caregiving
type.
Kelly Stiffler (31:23):
Oh yeah, that's true.
Good point.
actually had a good conversationwith my therapist yesterday
about all of that and justreaching out and asking for help
more along me talking to mydoctor about, changing my
medication.
that kind of thing just, it'skind of crazy in the grand
scheme of life.
Dr. Dean (31:42):
It sounds like you also have a great therapist.
Not everyone has had thatexperience after grief to find
people with
Kelly Stiffler (31:51):
is really we would be friends in another life
if we weren't, patient, doctorrules.
She's just good and she'srelatable and she doesn't care
when I come in and drop the Fbombs or, or she gets my brain
that's all over the place thatspews like random stuff at her
nonstop and may or may not berelated I remember probably two
(32:15):
months after I, started seeingher and, I had a pretty
traumatic birth with story withkale and almost died.
And there's a lot there.
And so I struggled with anxietyafter he was born.
just very fearful that, the nextthing was going to kill me.
and I said to her, I was like,but I'm very proud of myself.
(32:36):
I've never really beendepressed.
And this was after Josh died.
And she looks at me and she'slike, Hey, don't read your
medical file then, becauseyou're going to be surprised by
what your diagnosis says.
And I was like, Oh, really?
She's yeah, you have all thoseclassic symptoms that you didn't
want to know that you had.
And I was like, Oh, and then Iwas like, tell me about it.
And then we like talked throughit and I was like, Oh yeah.
(32:59):
Yeah.
Okay.
And so then that's what wetalked about yesterday is that
nothing in my medication hasever been changed since he
passed when we were truly justtreating anxiety before.
And so maybe we need to look atsomething that would maybe
treat.
them both together.
so we'll see.
Gonna call the doctor, make anappointment for that.
(33:22):
I think having thoseconversations and finding that
person that you can talk throughit with is pretty critical to
getting through this.
if I can recommend it, and now Idon't know why I ever thought
therapy was weird or, and Idon't know that I ever thought
it was weird, but I was like,well, I don't need it.
And I don't know why, becauseeveryone should have a therapist
that they talk to, even if it'sonce a year.
(33:44):
That they connect with becauseit just takes that piece out of
like it having to be You beinghard on someone at home or you I
don't know I just I wouldadvocate for it for everyone.
Dr. Dean (33:59):
I do too, but I'm a little biased.
Kelly Stiffler (34:02):
I know there's not enough
Dr. Dean (34:03):
that is correct.
For sure.
We all have waitlists, I thinkright now, partly to the.
pandemic normalizing therapy andgrief and loss and struggle in
many ways.
Kelly Stiffler (34:16):
That's true, too.
Yeah, I never thought about likethat
Dr. Dean (34:20):
Yeah, you mentioned people not working during the
pandemic.
I think that I actually workedmore during the pandemic.
Kelly Stiffler (34:26):
Yeah, that would make sense.
Absolutely.
And you had to change
Dr. Dean (34:30):
in truth, some of that was my grief.
That was my avoidance in mygrief.
This podcast is about you.
Kelly Stiffler (34:36):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (34:37):
I do want to share like, so sometimes you find
these connections, to how youstay connected to your sibling.
And I had this moment when youfirst started talking about Josh
that I want to share because Ifeel connected to you and your
brother in a way that will makesense in a second.
So you said that he sucked thetwo middle fingers.
My brother is in most of hispictures in childhood.
(35:00):
And for people not watching onvideo, you can't see this, but
he had those same two middlefingers in his mouth.
facing upward all the time.
And so when you said that, Ifelt this, really, strange
connection, something I'dforgotten about till you said
that.
So I wanted to share.
Kelly Stiffler (35:16):
No, thank you for sharing that.
Yeah.
And those are just those momentsthat you have, That bring you
full circle back to remembering.
Dr. Dean (35:24):
for sure.
are there other ways that griefand sibling loss has affected
you that you wish you had knownbefore?
Because you, you hinted at, Iwasn't the best of friends in
supporting other grievingpeople, but are there things
that you know now?
That you wish you had known asyou went into this.
Kelly Stiffler (35:43):
I had a, an associate who was a good friend
of mine who lost her brother andhe was a wrestler and into that
kind of stuff.
And I remember we were watchingvideos in one of our classes for
teaching perseverance orsomething.
And, we could pick, like fivedifferent ones as a teacher.
And I loved the wrestling one.
(36:04):
It was about a kid who didn'thave, He couldn't really use his
legs, but was still able towrestle.
And, I remember putting that onand having it on for like two or
three minutes and she looks atme and she just leaves the room.
and I felt horrible at the timeafterwards, but she had to make
that connection for me, but nowlooking back, I'm like, man, I
was an a hole like I could havepicked the sprint runner one,
(36:26):
or, all these things.
Or I could have said Hey, stepout of the room.
you don't need to be here forthis 30 minutes because.
This isn't going to be
Dr. Dean (36:32):
hm, mm hm,
Kelly Stiffler (36:34):
and just looking back in those moments and also
like realizing, it's a club thatyou don't know exists until it
happens to you that nobodyshould want to ever, I don't, I
wouldn't wish it on my worstenemy, like to be part of this
club.
Cause you feel like part ofyourself is missing.
Cause you grew up.
He was the middle child.
(36:55):
He always lets you know he wasthe middle child.
Dr. Dean (36:58):
In what way?
Kelly Stiffler (37:00):
every way, my sister got braces, he didn't, he
desperately needed them,according to him, the dentist
said, nah, really, they had thesame teeth, they had my mom's
crummy teeth, that was on her.
and then I had my dad's teethand I had the good teeth.
So he didn't get braces, Katiegot braces, Kelly got the good
(37:20):
teeth.
He was balding.
That was from my mom.
like just all the middle childthings that he could do, he
would do and let you know.
and he was the only boy, right?
So there was that too.
Not all people want to talkabout their siblings, I would
assume, ask me anything you wantto know, because talking about
him or hearing a story about howhe tried to light a fart on fire
(37:41):
when he was in high school at aparty, that reminds me of him
and brings him back in my brain,and the longer he's gone, the
more you don't have those.
New stories.
So bring them back all the time.
I don't care if they're filledwith every F word under the sun,
bring them back, And so that's,I think the part where I just
(38:02):
told Katie, cause I was like,this is probably going to come
out in the podcast that like.
I'm jealous of her because I was18, went to college, moved, two
hours away, two and a half hoursaway.
He was 14.
She would have been eight.
And so she was home for his highschool years.
(38:23):
I wasn't.
And so I don't have some ofthose memories that she has, I
knew several of his friends andas he got older and I lived in
the Quad Cities again, I knewmore of them, but some of them
that came in at the memorial,I'd be like, Katie, and she's
like, that's so and so.
And I was like, okay, I don'tknow how you figured out that's
who that was, because also theywere grownups.
(38:44):
And, the last time I'd seen someof them, they were 18, 19, but I
don't have some of those corememories that she would have
because I wasn't there.
And you do kind of start to showyour personality in high school
and he was spicy before.
And so I'm sure he was spicywhen he was in high school.
so there is that piece that'sdang, I got robbed.
(39:04):
And then I moved back home.
I taught muscatine for fouryears and then I moved back to
the Quad Cities and taught therefor four years before I met my
husband.
so I was around for likeeverything my little sister did
in high school, I went to allthe plays, but when you move to
college and you don't have acar, you just aren't home as
much.
I do have those jealousy momentswhere I'm like, Oh, I wasn't
(39:26):
here for that because I was incollege, which is a normal life
thing that you don't know you'reever going to be jealous of,
right?
Dr. Dean (39:33):
hmm.
Right.
It's interesting because youwere there when he was little
too.
Like she wouldn't have had thosetypes of memories.
Kelly Stiffler (39:40):
That's true.
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (39:42):
Yeah.
And for our listeners that Yoursister was on a prior episode.
So I think maybe we can cometogether and have a conversation
about this together.
Like all both of you, if you'reup to that.
Kelly Stiffler (39:57):
yeah, of course,
Dr. Dean (39:58):
Have you talked to her about that?
What it was like to not
Kelly Stiffler (40:02):
just recently, like I
Dr. Dean (40:04):
same memories?
Kelly Stiffler (40:05):
yeah, just recently, I told her, I'm like,
this is going to probably comeout.
I'm like, because I've reallybeen working through it
internally, like being jealous.
And she's like, Oh, I don'tthink she saw that.
But then she's like, but thatmakes sense.
cause you weren't there and it'sjust by birth order.
I wasn't there.
and so when they would go do alot of their political stuff
(40:26):
where he would take her placeswith him, I didn't live there,
so I didn't do those things withthem.
As I moved back home, I know shetold you the story or told
listeners at this point, thestory of picking him up when he
was drunk downtown, and himsmelling terrible and all those
things.
so we do have some of those corememories together, of him and
(40:47):
his, Wilder stage, and I neverthought about it for her.
That she would not remember himas much as the younger him.
So that's a good, although hewas naughty.
So maybe some of those memoriesshe doesn't want to remember.
Dr. Dean (41:06):
that sounds like.
Part of his spiciness, as yousaid, right?
Kelly Stiffler (41:09):
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
And it was, kicking a hole inthe door in the bathroom because
it was the only room in thehouse that locked and I had
tagged him last.
So I ran into the bathroom andhid and locked the door and then
he was mad.
So he kicked the door and cheapdoors are hollow.
And so you put your foot throughit.
Parents weren't very happy
Dr. Dean (41:25):
Mm hmm.
Kelly Stiffler (41:27):
Pretty sure that's still in the upstairs
Dr. Dean (41:28):
I bet Before I ask you the last question about memories
Is there anything else youwanted to share that you that we
would talk about today?
Kelly Stiffler (41:38):
just that sibling grief is something that
is way harder than I thinkpeople know or anticipate.
Dr. Dean (41:47):
Mm
Kelly Stiffler (41:48):
and like those.
Anniversaries that seem silly,and that's one thing I've worked
through is I'm usually good inthe day, which again, like you
said, leads to thecharacteristic of taking care of
people.
like, on his birthday or on hisdeath day or on, the first
(42:09):
Christmas, like I'm pretty goodin those days.
I can handle myself, but thenAfter that is the hardest for
me, his birthday is January 2nd.
We typically have that day offfrom school.
but this year, I didn't go backto school till January 4th.
my therapist and I are like,you're not going to be ready to
be around people that day.
(42:30):
so we made an appointment.
So I went and saw her on thatday and that kind of thing.
And so I think identifying.
When your body knows, like whenyour body is going to let you
know and have those, thephysical symptoms, one of the
biggest struggles I've beenhaving right now is just the
emotional exhaustion and thebrain fog, right?
(42:51):
the last two weeks of school,I'm I'm here, but I'm not sure
I'm here as my best self.
And so being aware of that forpeople who.
are listening to this becausethey just lost a sibling, or
being aware of that as someonewho's supporting someone who's
lost a sibling.
it'll be two years in February,March and that, still hits
(43:12):
randomly at any time and I thinkwhat I've realized is during the
summer when you have one ofthose emotionally taxing days as
a teacher, then the next day Icould just really Not talk to
anyone, turn on a TV show, allowmy mental self to recuperate.
when you're going to schoolevery day and you're around
people, which I love my job, I'mnot gonna, I don't want to
(43:34):
change that, nor do I wantanyone to think I don't, but
your body doesn't get the timeto recuperate that it needs from
being around people.
And I have found that to be mostchallenging for me.
And also I don't like to goplaces anymore.
My husband will say I'm alwaysfine once I get there, but it's
hard to get me to agree to go,especially if he's not going,
(43:57):
because I just don't want to bein that situation where I'm
constantly feeling thatemotional exhaustion.
Dr. Dean (44:07):
That's such great awareness, and thank you for
sharing that.
I think that's a lot of goodadvice in there.
So are there some favoritememories you want to share about
you and Josh?
No,
Kelly Stiffler (44:21):
many.
Dr. Dean (44:22):
fine.
Kelly Stiffler (44:25):
know what Katie shared, so I don't know if any
of them would overlap.
but I rented a house in the QuadCities when I taught there and
my cousins were all in town andI don't even know what everybody
was in town for but we went overto my uncle's house who lives in
the Quad Cities as well and youknow he grilled out and we were
(44:46):
hanging out and then we were thecousins.
Minus my little sister.
Cause she was still too young atthis point, I believe we're
going to go to the bar and, heapparently had taken Benadryl
that day because of hisallergies or he wasn't feeling
good or something.
I don't remember what, and thenhad alcohol on top of that.
(45:07):
And he like lost his ever livingminds, like hanging out of the
sunroof of my cousin's car,calling names.
And then He got mad at me whenwe got back to my house I don't
know what I said.
I don't remember what I said tohim, but he refused to come in
the house then.
so he was like laying in myfront yard.
and then I was like, dude, theneighbors are going to call the
(45:27):
cops.
Like you cannot lay in my frontyard.
this is a quiet littleneighborhood.
And so then he went and laid onthe back of the picnic table.
And then he had called my littlesister.
So she came and got him in hiscar.
Luckily, because then at thebottom of my big hill, he had to
open the door and lost hisdinner.
and so then we reflected okay,Benadryl and liquor, not quite a
(45:49):
good mix for you, Joshua.
And fast forward to two weekslater, you could laugh really
hard at it.
And the moment he was super madat me because I told him he
couldn't go out with us becausehe couldn't handle his stuff.
And he could, Kelly, but hecould not.
That was one of those where, youjust look at it and you laugh
and just all the times like hewould be with kale like all the
(46:10):
things or like combing throughmy kids text messages, because,
that's I guess one positive tomy son having a cell phone is
combing through and he wouldrandomly get a text from him
about how proud he was.
And I was like, I didn't know hesent him those texts, he would
tell me, but I didn't know hejust would reach directly out to
him.
(46:31):
And so that was cool.
and then, watching him become adad and my nieces are adopted
through foster care.
And so watching them, becometheirs and get to change their
last name to Brennan.
That was a pretty awesome day.
he was a big kid, but reallydidn't have any desire to play
(46:52):
competitive sports like thatjust wasn't in him.
And so when he went to highschool, he was fearful.
That the football coaches wouldgive him a hard time because he
was a good sized kid, but he's Idon't really want to do it have
any desire to and, I rememberhim calling me or seeing him and
he's like, Hey, coach asked mewhy I didn't play football.
And I said, I didn't really liketo play competitive sports.
(47:14):
He's okay, cool.
And then he's been nice to meever since.
And I was like, yeah, I told youit would be fine.
And, he's Yeah, he was realcool.
He's real cool about it.
the number of times he tried toget me to hide my report card or
my progress reports from myparents because he wouldn't play
the game.
And so his were never what theywere supposed to be.
(47:34):
And mine always were, fairlywhat they were supposed to be.
And, depending on where we wereat in our life, whether I would
be like, no, I'm going to ratyou out.
or I'd be like, okay, fine.
I'll just leave them in mybackpack.
But it would depend, was hegoing to do something for me?
Were we currently fighting?
Were we currently at our best?
So it always depended.
and the number of times he wouldbe like, dude, could you have
(47:56):
been just a little bit of a rulebreaker when you were in high
school?
So these teachers would not belike, you're Kelly's brother.
And I'd be like, Oh, sorry.
I don't know what to tell you.
I was like, well, my senioryear, I walked around a lot
during homeroom.
He's like, yeah, but you signedin every day in the guidance
office.
So they never counted youabsent.
I was like, well, yeah, but theydidn't figure out that's what I
did.
(48:17):
And he's like, yeah, that's notreally breaking the rules.
And I was like, I tried, I don'tknow what to tell you.
Cause he went to high school,obviously right after I
graduated.
So he had many of the sameteachers and harassed me about,
and then I think my sister gotit on the flip side.
some of the teachers didn'tremember me as much anymore, but
they're like, you're Josh'ssister.
Cause of all the students, shewas the best probably.
(48:39):
Cause she cared more than I, Igot good grades without really.
trying too hard, but I was inhigh school to socialize.
And I think she went for thewhole, like academics and
socialization.
So I just was more about,hanging out with my friends.
looking back, I realized incollege that it was hard and I
(49:00):
should have studied, but, Andthe number of times I remember
him fighting with my parents andmy mom threatening to send them
to boy's town, which I don'teven know if that's a thing or
what that is.
but Him just him getting to thepoint where he's you're not
going to do it.
You've said you're going to doit for a hundred times and
you're not going to do it.
And just, just him, callingtheir bluff clearly.
(49:21):
And I wouldn't say he was everlike, he didn't break laws or
like, I don't want people tothink he was out stealing cars.
Cause he didn't do any of thatkind of stuff.
He just wasn't going to play agame in a society that he, when
he knew how to do stuff andthings like that.
And that also meant at home.
Where like, even if you werelike, I remember them clearly
getting into a fight about himgoing to a party.
(49:44):
Cause like my mom, you don'tdrink underage.
You don't go to those parties.
And my brother was like, mom,I'm gonna go to that party.
I'm not going to drink, but I'mgoing to drive my friends home.
That might drink so that nobodygets in an accident.
I feel like he was still eventhen advocating for his friends,
right?
they're going to do somethingstupid and I want to make sure
they're safe.
Where I probably wasn't, Ididn't have that nerve, to do
(50:06):
that.
When I would have never told myparents I was going to a party
if I went to a party withalcohol at it.
And he just was like, I'm goingand you're not much you're going
to do about it.
cause I think he was like asenior.
And she's and she clearly wasn'thappy about it, but, in his
mind, he wanted everyone to gethome safe.
I remember one of him, himtelling me after the fact that
(50:29):
several of his friends werelike, Hey, will your sister buy
us alcohol?
cause I was 22 when they were 18and he's like, no.
And they're like, you didn'teven ask her.
He's like, yeah, I don't wanther to lose her teaching
license.
So she's not going to buy usalcohol.
Get over yourselves.
And so like just him having thatawareness, like he never even
brought it up to me until he waslike telling me the story, oh,
so and so asked me to ask you tobuy alcohol.
(50:51):
And I was like, really?
And he's like, yeah.
And he's like, I said, no.
So still just, sticking up, notputting you in
Dr. Dean (50:59):
Yeah.
Mm.
Kelly Stiffler (51:00):
that's just.
Yes, 100%.
I remember, I don't remember alot of childbirth after Kale was
born, but I remember, they alldid officially, come up and were
in the waiting room waiting, andthen, things went a little
crazy, and, they let my familyhave the room next to us because
(51:23):
there wasn't anybody in there,and at one point, when they were
in the room working with me, mymom had Kale, Next door.
They let her take him next door.
and I remember hearing from mybrother later, how traumatized
he was because the nurse hadpulled off kills the cap on his
head and was like, do you wantto see what 10 centimeters looks
(51:45):
like?
Cause you could like, there waslike a ring on his poor little
head.
And my brother was like, Oh.
No, thank you.
And walked away and, I justremember those kind of core
memories and then just him beingthe best human, my husband ended
up with cellulitis when I waspregnant with kale and, spiked a
high fever, we went to thehospital.
(52:07):
and then they were like, if hehas a blood clot, we're going to
send him home.
And they had to do differenttests.
And I was like, he can barelywalk.
how am I going to get him in thehouse?
And I remember texting with mymom and my parents and, talking
to them.
And so lo and behold, My brothershows up an hour and a half
later and he had driven up hereto be here that if he had to
(52:29):
help because he's like you can'tget him into the house if he's
you know if he's coming home andso like just that blessing of
having my brother there and thenhe came home with me and stayed
because they admitted Chadobviously and he was there for
several days but he came homeand stayed with me and you know
made sure everything was goodhere and Chad's a big guy.
I'm a big guy.
(52:49):
If we need to get him in thehouse, it's not going to be you.
So he didn't think anything ofit and drove up and it was after
10, it was probably midnightwhen he got there, but he's
like, well, mom and dad can'tcome because they have to work.
I'm, I just said I couldn't bethere tomorrow morning.
And I was like, that just meantso much because I didn't know.
I was panicked, and you go intothat, like, how am I going to
(53:10):
take care of this person thathas to be here?
Cause I was like, he can barelywalk.
How's he going to get to thebathroom?
Josh is like, I'll just stay.
so just those kinds of thingsthat you don't even ask for, but
he'd just show up and do.
Dr. Dean (53:22):
Yeah, it sounds like his insistence on being an organ
donor was this last act ofmaking sure every, he could take
care of as many people as hecould.
So how fitting.
Kelly Stiffler (53:35):
Yeah.
we always talk that we didn'tget the miracle we were praying
for, but several people got themiracles that gosh only knows
how long they were praying for,right?
one of the kidney donors, he, hehad to go to dialysis all day.
I think it was three or fourtimes a week.
And so now he, when he would beable to spend time with his
family and his grandkids, it's apretty big blessing for that
(53:56):
family.
Dr. Dean (53:56):
thank you for sharing all of this and chatting and I
look forward to staying intouch.
Kelly Stiffler (54:02):
Yeah.
100%.
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (54:05):
Thank you so much for listening.
Our theme song was written byJoe Mylwood and Brian Dean, and
was performed by Joe Mylwood.
If you would like moreinformation on the Broken Pack,
go to our website, the brokenpack.com.
Be sure to sign up for ournewsletter, Wild Grief, to learn
about opportunities and receiveexclusive information and
grieving tips for subscribers.
(54:25):
Information on that, our socialmedia and on our guests can be
found in the show notes whereveryou get your podcasts.
Please follow, subscribe, andshare.
Thanks again.
Hello and welcome to the Broken Pack, a podcast
focused on giving adultsurvivors of sibling loss, a
platform to share their storiesand to be heard.
Something that many sibling losssurvivors state that they never
have had.
Sibling Loss is Misunderstood™.
The Broken Pack exists to changethat and to support survivors.
(00:32):
I'm your host, Dr.
Angela Dean.
Today I spoke to Kelly aboutlosing her brother suddenly to a
medical incident.
He was an organ donor, his nameis Josh, and this story may
sound familiar, as I spoke withher sister earlier this season.
What's interesting is to hearthe differences and how Kelly
(00:53):
grieved from her sister Kate, sotake a listen, but also know
that we do plan to bring themtogether and have a conversation
next season about how they'redifferent and how they're doing
now.
(01:14):
Hello and welcome to the show.
I will let you introduceyourself.
Kelly Stiffler (01:20):
Okay, I'm Kelly Stifler.
I am a teacher, a mom to a 14year old just recently.
lover of sports and all things,I guess.
Dr. Dean (01:32):
Awesome.
What kind of sports?
Just outta curiosity.
Kelly Stiffler (01:35):
we're currently very much football parent and,
wrestling mom.
Dr. Dean (01:43):
Fantastic.
and obviously a sibling losssurvivor as we're here talking
today.
before we talk about losing yourbrother, I wondered what you
want us to know about Josh.
Kelly Stiffler (01:56):
Josh was kind of a crazy kid growing up, loved
every minute of just harassinghis big sister.
I am four years older than him.
I remember not so much when hewas born.
But I remember, the years afterthat, and, the time he, my mom
thought he broke my nose becauseshe wanted two minutes a piece
(02:17):
in the bathroom and he swung hismusical box rabbit and hit me
right smack dab in the face andgot me in the nose.
And the time that I broke hisfingers in the car door, cause
he was not where he was supposedto be.
And he came behind me to get inthe car and he was supposed to
be with mom.
he never really let me live thatdown, even though I don't think
he was old enough to rememberthat.
(02:40):
but obviously that story hadcome out multiple times and he
always sucked those middle twofingers and those were the
middle two fingers I broke.
yeah, he didn't let that go verywell.
and as we grew up.
he was just a good big brotherto my little sister Katie's 10
years younger than I am sixyears younger than.
Josh, but I remember going tosomething in eighth grade and my
(03:02):
mom having to like hire one ofthe neighbor boys to babysit
because she was afraid those twowould like just throw down or
burn the house down orsomething.
even though Josh was old enoughto like stay home for an hour
with her they were definitelynot in the space to stay home
together.
Obviously that changed as theygot older.
But as I went to college andthings like that, I knew he was
(03:24):
always super proud of me.
and he just turned into thislike amazing advocate for
people.
my dad was a special ed teacherand worked in a self contained
building until I was a junior inhigh school.
And so I think we grew up withthat, Advocacy and, everyone is
a person and all humans arehumans.
And, so he just turned intothat, he worked for, an agency
(03:49):
that cared for special needsclients.
And, so he was a huge advocate,would help parents at schools
with IEP meetings and differentthings.
And then, I saw a different sideof Josh when my son Kale was
born, so that made him an unclefor the first time.
And he was just so proud of Kaleevery time.
(04:10):
He talked to him and remember hecomes in and he goes, how does
your son know what an octagonis?
And I was like, I don't know whyhe goes, I don't know, but he
just showed me what an octagonwas.
And little do I know, two dayslater I watch and it's, Mickey
mouse clubhouse, right?
Like I didn't teach him that.
So that was much different forme.
so he was just all thingsamazing.
Dr. Dean (04:34):
Sounds like a great brother and a great uncle.
Kelly Stiffler (04:37):
yeah.
And then he became a dad andthat changed, then he was even
better.
Dr. Dean (04:42):
What was your relationship like with him as
adults?
Because I assume you stoppedbreaking Bones by accident.
Kelly Stiffler (04:48):
we did definitely stop breaking bones
by accident.
I would say, that typicalsibling relationship that you
have, and then he was veryprotective when he knew I had
met my husband.
I met my husband online.
and so then he called my cousinwho was a police officer.
And he's like, how do we findout if this guy's decent?
what do we do?
so very protective still, eventhough, I was older.
(05:11):
And then I remember very vividlyhaving a dream that he was,
dropped out of school and,making some poor choices and.
I hadn't seen him in a while.
And I ran into him randomly in aparking lot.
And I was like, wait, I need toask you a question.
Are you doing this?
And he's no, why?
I was like, did you quit school?
He's like, how do you know?
Don't tell mom and dad.
(05:32):
And I was like, okay.
And then he's like, how do youknow that?
I was like, I just had a dream.
And I remember you like tellingme these things.
And he's okay, don't tell momand dad.
I'm not ready to tell them.
I'm like, okay, I won't tellthem.
So that continued and he justreally struggled to find his
place.
Like in schooling school washard.
because not cause he wasn'tsmart.
(05:52):
Cause he's incredibly smart, butbecause he didn't want to play
the game.
He didn't want to jump throughthe hoops.
Like, why would I do homework ifI know how to do it?
so he went back and during theCOVID pandemic and probably
within the year of him passing,he got his BA degree, from
Western.
And so that was awesome for him,to have that diploma and that
(06:14):
graduation.
And then that allowed him to getthat final job that he had right
before he passed.
but we had a great relationship.
I would say not every day did wetext, but like randomly, that
kind of stuff, but definitelytext all the time about our
kids.
Cause you know, then once youwatch your brother become a dad,
it just changes everything andthey had to fight so hard to
(06:36):
have the kids.
so that was definitely a funside as we all became parents, I
remember when we had kale, wewould just take kale to
everything.
Cause he was like, the firstgrandchild and then also the
first cousin to have a kid thatlived locally on my dad's side
of the family and I rememberabout six months into my brother
(06:56):
having the twins he's like wewere kind of dicks like we went
to the breweries we went to thewineries and we just wanted you
to bring him with you and youdid but like we did not
recognize how much harder it isto do this with kids and how
maybe that's not the place youwant to go so You know, like
that self reflection was alwaysa big piece with him.
Dr. Dean (07:19):
hmm.
thank you for sharing that.
what would you like to shareabout losing him?
Kelly Stiffler (07:26):
it was a shock.
my little sister was verypregnant and I remember my
school is two stories and I wasstanding upstairs outside, right
before school started talkingto, some of my colleagues and my
phone rang and I looked downand, It was my sister and I was
like, Ooh, maybe baby's coming.
cause we were close enough thatit was definitely safe.
(07:47):
It was a little early.
and then she shared that he hadgone into cardiac arrest, from
the sudden medical incident.
And, I just was in shock anddidn't really know what to do.
And was like talking to her onthe way down the hall and went
down the steps one of thecounselors in my buildings like,
hey, let's come in here.
let's come in here.
(08:09):
And so I finished my call withmy sister found my principal and
my assistant principal.
And I'm like, I gotta go.
I don't know what's going on.
so I got my son and my husbandso we went to the Quad Cities
and.
had to break all the rulesbecause it was still very much
COVID time with limits in thehospitals and there was already
too many people there and blah,blah, blah.
(08:30):
But whatever, I, that's one ofthe most frustrating pieces of
his story is that piece, therecan only be two people in there
at a time.
And I'm like, he's dying.
but I know we had to beconscious of the people in the
other rooms.
So that was hard for all of us.
But, my husband jokes that hecouldn't believe how well I
(08:51):
could tell a lie because thesecurity guard was like, he has
to be 14.
And I was like, he is, and, heturned 14 last week, so he
wasn't clearly 14.
Dr. Dean (09:03):
But he knew your brother well.
Kelly Stiffler (09:05):
yeah.
Oh yeah.
fortunately for him, he has allthese memories of Josh.
Unfortunately for him, his kidsand my sister's kids are not
going to have the same memoriesthat Kale has.
Dr. Dean (09:21):
Yeah.
Kelly Stiffler (09:22):
so I feel incredibly blessed as the big
sister that he got to spend allthat time with him and, they
would come up and babysit himsometimes, or, just the times
that he did spend with them.
so then he was in the hospitalfor about a week.
Because.
he always wanted to be an organdonor, I think since 14 on when
(09:43):
you register in the state ofIowa to get your permit that was
checked.
Yes.
On his driver's license.
I think he was like, if I can'thave him, why shouldn't someone
else?
and so his wife consented tothat.
And then for those that don'tknow, that's a super long
process.
so they have to declare you deadin the hospital.
(10:05):
but then keep you alive,obviously, to harvest your
Dr. Dean (10:09):
Right.
Kelly Stiffler (10:10):
So the incident happened on a Monday, and they
didn't harvest his organs tillFriday.
So that's a lot of like, waitinggame and that limbo, and you
know he's gone, but physicallyhe's still there.
my sister and I have coined thatDead Brother Week.
Which some people look at uslike we're insane, but you got
(10:31):
to do what you got to do to getby.
And, all of us have differentdays of when was his actual
final day.
So it's that week.
And then they were able to find,recipients for his heart and his
lungs.
and his kidneys, and thenobviously bone and tissue as
well, and corneas.
So that was awesome.
Dr. Dean (10:52):
Awesome.
And also, like you said, there'sa whole week of, you're just
waiting.
It sounds like.
Kelly Stiffler (10:59):
Yeah, and I don't know if you weren't super
close to us, or checking in withus daily, you may not have even
known, what the process that wasgoing on or that kind of thing.
and you shut down to a littlebit as a family, like my little
sister found an Airbnb in theQuad Cities and we just stayed
(11:21):
there with her.
And her four boys, four now, buther son at the time and her
husband and my husband and mykid and my parents live in town,
and then our friends from highschool that, were around rallied
around us and drop stuff offand, tried to help pick up the
pieces wherever we could.
But yeah, it was, an intenseweek of lots of questions.
(11:45):
It was really important to myparents.
They really wanted, him toreceive, or for someone to
receive his heart.
That was really important to myparents.
and I have to say the Iowa organdonor network nurses and people
that were in the hospital weresuper fabulous and very aware.
And one night I was laying inthe Airbnb and my, I got a text
(12:07):
and it was like one or two inthe morning and she, it was one
of the nurses or.
I don't know if they weretechnically a nurse or, but does
the organ donation placement onJosh's case.
And she's like, are you awake?
And I was like, yeah, of course.
And so she called and it was themiddle of the night.
And she's like, Hey, I think wefound a match for your brother's
(12:28):
heart.
And I was like, that'sspectacular.
She's the only problem is thatit will back up.
Like we really wanted it done byFriday morning.
Like my sister in law was justready.
She was torn between being withher kids and with him.
All of us were torn between thetwo places.
And so she's like, but theycan't probably be at the
(12:49):
hospital until about two.
Because something I didn't knowis it's very common for the
heart surgeons to fly in.
And they actually remove theheart and then take it with
them.
and it has to be with like in afour hour window, or otherwise,
the heart isn't good I guess.
it had to be like a Midwestperson.
(13:10):
And that pushed it back to theafternoon and she's like, is
that going to be a problem?
I can't get a hold of your momor your sister in law.
and I was like, that's goodnews.
That must mean they're bothsleeping.
So that's fantastic.
Cause I don't think they hadslept much.
And then I was like, no, it'snot going to be a problem.
You're telling me that.
if we are selfish as a familyand say that it has to be done
by 10 or 11, someone doesn't geta heart and his heart goes in
(13:32):
the garbage.
no, that's ridiculous.
Like we are,
Dr. Dean (13:36):
Right.
Kelly Stiffler (13:37):
too important.
And so like, I just textedeverybody after I got off the
phone with her and I was like,they found a heart.
It's going to push everythingback.
I told them that was okay.
I hope that's okay with you.
and that's where we were withthat.
they did have a liver transplantrecipient ready, but then
something either on Josh's endor on the recipient, we don't
(14:00):
know.
It ended up not being viable,but like the kidneys went, the
lungs went.
And then my sister has writtenthat heart donor and received a
letter back and he's got youngkids too.
So like, how in the world couldwe knowingly be like.
No, we want this done, which,you very much do want it done.
but it was a good process.
Dr. Dean (14:23):
Were you there when he had his final?
I don't know what they callthat.
Kelly Stiffler (14:27):
The honor walk.
Yep.
it was much shorter than Ianticipated.
I don't know in my head, Ienvisioned it to be parade, like
we're going to go through thewhole hospital, but you really
don't go that far, but it wasvery
Dr. Dean (14:41):
Mm hmm.
Kelly Stiffler (14:42):
awesome to see all the people out in the
halls., I don't know how they doit in all hospitals, but they
make an announcement and thenyou, walk behind him.
yeah, it was pretty darn cool tosee those people come out and
just pay their respects becausethe heart donor nurses and
people there did say, he's ararity.
(15:05):
a lot of times you don't havesomeone that can donate so many
organs and so many things andhelp save so many
Dr. Dean (15:11):
Mm
Kelly Stiffler (15:12):
cause essentially when I was talking
to her on the phone, the onething that didn't work for him
at that point was his brain,right?
Everything else was working withmachines.
Dr. Dean (15:20):
hmm.
Right.
Kelly Stiffler (15:22):
it was awful.
cause you knew that was lasttime you were gonna.
see his physical body.
but he deserves that becausehe's saving all those people.
Dr. Dean (15:33):
yeah.
Kelly Stiffler (15:34):
Sorry.
Dr. Dean (15:36):
How incredible.
Oh, please don't apologize.
It seems normal that you wouldbe having emotions talking about
that.
what was it like in the, daysand weeks after that for you?
Did you?
go back to work or?
Kelly Stiffler (15:48):
yeah.
So I didn't work that wholeentire, like, as we've coined
it, dead brother week.
And then his memorial servicewas that following Monday.
and then, I didn't go back towork to Day, but I went back to
work Wednesday, Thursday,Friday, I had more time.
Like I could have stayed home alittle bit longer.
(16:09):
but it was spring break thatfollowing week.
Cause I'm a teacher and I waslike, if I don't go back in and
do something and just at leastsee people, I'm going to have a
heck of a time going back afteranother full week off.
Cause that would have been threeweeks off.
So I figured it was a nice,good, soft start to get me.
a little bit back to some sortof normalcy.
(16:32):
So that was good.
I needed that, was it hard andwas I just going through the
motions?
100%.
but it allowed me to show up formy kids, my students to see that
I was okay.
cause they didn't really haveany heads up that I was going to
be gone.
Cause clearly we didn't.
And then, I think people finallytold them what was going on, but
(16:52):
they wanted to make sure like Iwas good with that and things
like that.
I have some incredible notes inmy box from students and staff.
And if I wasn't in the buildingthat I was in.
I don't know if I could havegone back to work, but like they
just.
pick you up and, make sureyou're safe.
And, I remember there's a book,it's a great book by, it's
(17:14):
called crossover, spoiler alert,the dad dies in it, and goes to
the hospital.
And I've read that book out loudso many times to kids and we
were reading it out loud and Iliterally.
I don't know what, I don't knowif it was divine intervention.
I didn't read out loud that dayand I almost always in my co
taught classes offer to read outloud because the teachers have
(17:36):
to read it five times and I'monly in there once so let's give
you a break but I didn't read itout loud that day which was good
and I literally looked at herand I was like I gotta go and I
went to the counseling officebecause it was just the whole,
was he going to live?
Was he not going to live kind ofthing in the book?
And although it was this kid'sdad and that it was just too
(17:57):
fresh, too new.
but like knew that and theyjust, picked up the pieces.
I think at home I was unbearableat days.
I would guess that my husbandand my son would tell you very
irritable, quick to snap.
And when I finally went totherapy for the first time, my
therapist is like, well, that'sbecause they love you and
(18:18):
they're still going to be theretomorrow.
And you can't do that at work,or you're going to lose your
job.
And you don't do that to yourfriends because you still want
to have friends.
And I was like, Oh, and justthat awareness.
Of her, telling me that so thatlike, when I got home, I could
try.
No, I'm still not perfect by anymeans.
(18:38):
and have better days and weeksthan I have, but just try not to
be, I only had, he's only in myhouse five more years before he
goes to college.
I don't want that relationshipto be cruddy because of
everything that's happened in mylife.
Dr. Dean (18:53):
Mhm.
I love that you were able to getthat perspective.
it's sometimes hard to whenwe're in grief and we don't know
why we're irritable, or we mightbe, but then it comes out in
ways that we're unaware.
what grade do you teach?
Kelly Stiffler (19:10):
teach, so the year that he passed, I.
Was a seventh grade special edteacher.
And then I rotate with thosekids.
So last year I was in eighthgrade and then this year I'm
back in seventh grade.
it'll be interesting to see howit goes.
I'm back in the exact same roomand the exact same wing.
Cause I move rooms every year.
So I am back in that exact samelocation.
So it'll be interesting to seehow the month of February,
(19:33):
March, April, May, June go,cause that will
Dr. Dean (19:38):
Mhm.
Kelly Stiffler (19:38):
reliving all that trauma,
Dr. Dean (19:41):
And he died in 2021.
Kelly Stiffler (19:44):
Yes.
Yep.
It'll be two years in February.
or March,
Dr. Dean (19:49):
Mhm.
Kelly Stiffler (19:49):
you are.
Dr. Dean (19:51):
Does your family have different views of that
Kelly Stiffler (19:53):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (19:54):
When he died,
Kelly Stiffler (19:56):
I think for my sister in law, at least the last
time we talked about it, I thinkhers is like the day that it
happened in their home together,where I think my mom's might be
either the same as my sister andI's or it also might be she was
there.
they have to declare you dead.
And so she was there during thetest to verify that he was dead.
(20:18):
And so for her, I could see thatit would be that day.
cause that's a different daythan when they, we said goodbye
to him.
And so like mine is that day,the last day I like saw his
physical body.
cause I saw him most days thatweek.
I think I saw him every day thatweek.
So cause on that Monday, then wecame back home.
I didn't go back to school, butmy son went back to school for a
(20:40):
couple of days.
and then I think they came downeither Wednesday or Thursday of
that week.
And then we all stayed at theAirbnb together.
and did some stuff and we wentdown Tuesday and my sister
wasn't there because it's alonger drive for my sister but
then we were with my sister inlaw and my parents when they
told the kids that Josh hadpassed away.
(21:00):
we were in the Quad Cities everyday that week whether we were
staying the night or not.
yeah, we do all have I thinkdifferent.
and I don't know what the kids,what her kids, my brother's kids
will have is there, I don't knowthat they have any awareness of
the actual timeframe or the day.
So I don't know what that willlook like for them as they grow
older.
Dr. Dean (21:19):
we often talk about anniversaries with grief and how
that is challenging It soundslike the whole week must be some
sort of anniversary.
Kelly Stiffler (21:28):
Yeah.
definitely there's stuff everyweek and like my, again, my
principal.
is really great.
And so like we talked and, withmy therapist about days that
we're going to be triggering ordays, maybe I wouldn't be my
greatest teacher.
Dr. Dean (21:42):
Mm hmm
Kelly Stiffler (21:43):
I took that Monday.
It ended up being a Tuesday, butI took it that Tuesday this last
week, last year off.
And then the Friday, and thenthe Friday I went and spent with
my sister.
my kid stayed here and went toschool.
Her kids were in daycare.
And then we went and we actuallygot tattoos together.
and so I would assume,
Dr. Dean (22:03):
honoring Josh or
Kelly Stiffler (22:04):
Yeah.
Yep.
we both got, kiddos and then shehad already gotten her cardinal
tattoo with her guy and then Iwanted one.
and I really liked what he did.
And so then I got that one aswell with him, I didn't have a
tattoo till Josh and so it wasfun for just the two of us to
go.
And then when we went out forlunch and then.
(22:26):
Rowan is her son and he's allthings Aunt Kelly some days and
so we had a great time with,just hanging out and playing
with him and seeing the baby.
yeah, it needed to be done.
I think one of the things thatmaybe Is lost a little bit in
sibling grief is you find thatyou're picking up the pieces
(22:49):
for, trying to help your parentsor trying to help your sister in
law and her kids, and thenworrying about your own kid,
even though like he apparentlyis fine, I've stopped asking
because he's a middle school kidand whatever he says, he's fine.
So hopefully at some point, ifhe's ever not fine, he'll tell
us.
yeah.
Apparently, according to mycounselors, that's a very
(23:09):
standard response.
it's not here in the moment inhis face.
So it's not in his brain.
And I'm like, okay, I'm gladthat he can.
I'm glad he can think that way.
I can't.
so I think that was lost on us.
And so that day before I wenthome on.
Whatever the next day was welike sat in her kitchen and
she's like, we really haven'ttalked about Josh you know, you
(23:33):
tell stories when we're alltogether, but so that was really
a good empowering time where wehad those emotions and talked
about that kind of thing.
Because, while my parents, mymom was incredibly strong, and I
am pretty sure that I would haveto be locked up in a mental
institution, if it was me.
(23:54):
But, you still worry about them.
they went and did the funeralarrangements.
And so I was like, I'm going togo with you, I don't want you to
have to do this by yourself, andthings like that.
And you just forget to mayberemember that you need to look
at him as a sibling sometimes,because you're worried about
everyone else, which then, Ithink makes your grief a
(24:16):
thousand times worse when ithits you.
Dr. Dean (24:19):
so many people I've talked to talk about, and myself
included, that especially inthose first few weeks or months,
you're very worried about yourparents and taking care of them,
which kind of reinforces thisidea that other people have that
our grief is less, but it's notless, it's just different,
right?
But we somehow also fall intothat internalized belief, taking
(24:40):
care of everyone.
it's hierarchy.
Kelly Stiffler (24:43):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (24:44):
How has your relationship been with your
parents?
Kelly Stiffler (24:47):
my therapist would just say that's who I was
before too, was taking care ofeveryone else.
So she's like, it justmanifested and made it a whole
lot harder.
my relationship with my parentsis great.
unfortunately, COVID was adisaster in our family.
obviously couldn't stop working.
When we went back to work asteachers, my husband manages.
(25:08):
A local branch of FedEx.
So he never stopped working.
In fact, he was busier duringCOVID because it was so busy.
my sister and her husband wereable to work from home.
my son is a social being withonly one child at home and he
was tired of his mom.
So we obviously sent him back toschool.
and my, brother, they chose tostay home and my parents did as
(25:33):
well, I feel like, you kind ofgot robbed of some of that time
because of COVID.
Dr. Dean (25:38):
Mm hmm,
Kelly Stiffler (25:39):
but, you have to just work through that process
as well.
my relationship with my parentsis great.
It's sometimes I feel badbecause I probably don't reach
out as much as I should becauseI'm in my own grief.
So sometimes you don't want toadd grief to your own grief and
(26:00):
they don't do that.
that's not even who they are.
So I don't know why I feel thatway, but you just do.
Dr. Dean (26:07):
Mm
Kelly Stiffler (26:07):
they just came up last week to watch my son
play football because that wasone of the things my dad's I
miss so much watching kill playfootball and wrestling because
of this stupid COVID.
And so They came up last weekand then he's like, if it's nice
in two weeks, we're coming upagain.
And so there's just that regretalso so many people died from
(26:28):
COVID.
So you totally get it too, butnow that it's over and you can't
do it over because you think ofthe time you're going to have
years with everyone.
Dr. Dean (26:40):
Which is such a hard lesson when we lose people
unexpectedly and out of order.
Kelly Stiffler (26:46):
Correct.
Yeah.
You don't really realize thatthere's a death order.
Until something happens and it'sout of order.
Dr. Dean (26:55):
Right.
In the grief literature andworld, we call that out of order
loss.
Quite literally what it'scalled.
Kelly Stiffler (27:05):
it makes total sense.
And it's that you don't reallyknow realize until it happens to
you.
And also you realize you weren'tyour best friend to people that
have gone through this before,like you thought you were doing
the thing.
But you have no flipping ideawhat people actually really
need.
And I think you realize quicklyevery person is different.
(27:29):
One of the best things we got,when my brother passed was the
two counselors and thecounseling secretary, and
they're all very good friends ofmine.
they sent me a DoorDash giftcard.
And while that seems supertrivial to some people, it was
the greatest thing.
We came home that first nightfrom being in the Quad Cities
(27:51):
and Chad's we don't havegroceries.
Like we don't have food.
We haven't been here for a week.
what do you want for dinner?
Do you want to go somewhere?
I was like, I don't want to seepeople.
And so we could pick from allthese restaurants, ordered
DoorDash, had it delivered.
I didn't, I put leave on thefront porch.
I didn't even have to talk tothe delivery driver.
It was so.
empowering for something thatsimple to go that far because,
(28:16):
they did a meal train for mylittle, for my sister in law and
they did some stuff for myparents as well, like her, their
church, but My sister in lawdidn't want to see people, so
they had the meals dropped offat someone else's house and then
that person would bring themover.
So now that's like my go to giftwhen someone is having something
going on is, and it's so simplebecause you can text it to them.
(28:38):
You don't need their mailingaddress.
You don't need anything.
And then they can feel that theydon't have to go out and do
something, right?
they don't have to see people ifthey don't want
Dr. Dean (28:48):
Right.
Kelly Stiffler (28:48):
to people.
Dr. Dean (28:50):
for sure, I love it too because other guests and I
have joked about, it's nice whenpeople want to bring you food,
but then you end up with Afreezer full of food or things
that you may or may not eat.
So the DoorDash gives you the,or the delivery of some sort,
gives you that opportunity tochoose.
Yeah.
What a great, great gift.
(29:10):
And also it sounds like yourfriends, especially being
counselors, understood how tosupport you and just even
emotionally when you went backto work.
Kelly Stiffler (29:18):
Oh, yeah.
they sent the emails for me toKale School because I was like,
I, and I wanted to make surenobody pulled him out of class
or any of that kind of thingbecause he would be so mad if
someone pulled him out of classto talk about that.
But the gym teacher there, itwasn't his gym teacher, but is
also one of his wrestlingcoaches.
And I was like, so please makesure he knows because that would
(29:40):
be one of the people that killwould talk to if he was, if he
wanted to talk to somebody oralso his teachers.
My building got split up and soboth his teachers were friends
of mine from, when they were inmy building.
I wanted to make sure that theright people knew and they
handled all of that for me.
(30:01):
yes, very fortunate.
lots of people.
And not just them, but lots ofpeople picked up.
and did things for me.
one of my friends I had taughtwith who had reached, who had
retired and was subbing, shewent and subbed in my classroom
and I was like, I'll try to getyou lesson plans tonight.
she's absolutely not.
She's like, I will get in there.
I will figure it out.
I will talk to the teachersaround you.
(30:22):
You just need to be with yourfamily.
And just those little blessingsthat they don't even maybe know
was such a blessing, was a hugeblessing.
Dr. Dean (30:32):
Mm-Hmm.
Kelly Stiffler (30:33):
it was good.
Dr. Dean (30:35):
Do you feel still supported in the same way?
Kelly Stiffler (30:39):
yes, but sometimes I think, I don't want
my friends to listen to this andthink Oh, we don't do a good job
supporting her, because that'snot what I'm saying.
But sometimes I feel like thatsupport fades or sometimes
you'll still get the questionlike, how are your parents?
How's your sister in law?
How are the babies?
And then you're like, wait, youmissed the, how are you
(31:01):
question?
and Which I do appreciate peoplecaring about all of those
people.
That is incredibly important aswell.
but I also, sometimes I'm like,I am not good, but if you're not
going to ask, I'm not going totell you because I don't reach
out.
I don't ask for help.
Dr. Dean (31:19):
Well, and that speaks to you being the caregiving
type.
Kelly Stiffler (31:23):
Oh yeah, that's true.
Good point.
actually had a good conversationwith my therapist yesterday
about all of that and justreaching out and asking for help
more along me talking to mydoctor about, changing my
medication.
that kind of thing just, it'skind of crazy in the grand
scheme of life.
Dr. Dean (31:42):
It sounds like you also have a great therapist.
Not everyone has had thatexperience after grief to find
people with
Kelly Stiffler (31:51):
is really we would be friends in another life
if we weren't, patient, doctorrules.
She's just good and she'srelatable and she doesn't care
when I come in and drop the Fbombs or, or she gets my brain
that's all over the place thatspews like random stuff at her
nonstop and may or may not berelated I remember probably two
(32:15):
months after I, started seeingher and, I had a pretty
traumatic birth with story withkale and almost died.
And there's a lot there.
And so I struggled with anxietyafter he was born.
just very fearful that, the nextthing was going to kill me.
and I said to her, I was like,but I'm very proud of myself.
(32:36):
I've never really beendepressed.
And this was after Josh died.
And she looks at me and she'slike, Hey, don't read your
medical file then, becauseyou're going to be surprised by
what your diagnosis says.
And I was like, Oh, really?
She's yeah, you have all thoseclassic symptoms that you didn't
want to know that you had.
And I was like, Oh, and then Iwas like, tell me about it.
And then we like talked throughit and I was like, Oh yeah.
(32:59):
Yeah.
Okay.
And so then that's what wetalked about yesterday is that
nothing in my medication hasever been changed since he
passed when we were truly justtreating anxiety before.
And so maybe we need to look atsomething that would maybe
treat.
them both together.
so we'll see.
Gonna call the doctor, make anappointment for that.
(33:22):
I think having thoseconversations and finding that
person that you can talk throughit with is pretty critical to
getting through this.
if I can recommend it, and now Idon't know why I ever thought
therapy was weird or, and Idon't know that I ever thought
it was weird, but I was like,well, I don't need it.
And I don't know why, becauseeveryone should have a therapist
that they talk to, even if it'sonce a year.
(33:44):
That they connect with becauseit just takes that piece out of
like it having to be You beinghard on someone at home or you I
don't know I just I wouldadvocate for it for everyone.
Dr. Dean (33:59):
I do too, but I'm a little biased.
Kelly Stiffler (34:02):
I know there's not enough
Dr. Dean (34:03):
that is correct.
For sure.
We all have waitlists, I thinkright now, partly to the.
pandemic normalizing therapy andgrief and loss and struggle in
many ways.
Kelly Stiffler (34:16):
That's true, too.
Yeah, I never thought about likethat
Dr. Dean (34:20):
Yeah, you mentioned people not working during the
pandemic.
I think that I actually workedmore during the pandemic.
Kelly Stiffler (34:26):
Yeah, that would make sense.
Absolutely.
And you had to change
Dr. Dean (34:30):
in truth, some of that was my grief.
That was my avoidance in mygrief.
This podcast is about you.
Kelly Stiffler (34:36):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (34:37):
I do want to share like, so sometimes you find
these connections, to how youstay connected to your sibling.
And I had this moment when youfirst started talking about Josh
that I want to share because Ifeel connected to you and your
brother in a way that will makesense in a second.
So you said that he sucked thetwo middle fingers.
My brother is in most of hispictures in childhood.
(35:00):
And for people not watching onvideo, you can't see this, but
he had those same two middlefingers in his mouth.
facing upward all the time.
And so when you said that, Ifelt this, really, strange
connection, something I'dforgotten about till you said
that.
So I wanted to share.
Kelly Stiffler (35:16):
No, thank you for sharing that.
Yeah.
And those are just those momentsthat you have, That bring you
full circle back to remembering.
Dr. Dean (35:24):
for sure.
are there other ways that griefand sibling loss has affected
you that you wish you had knownbefore?
Because you, you hinted at, Iwasn't the best of friends in
supporting other grievingpeople, but are there things
that you know now?
That you wish you had known asyou went into this.
Kelly Stiffler (35:43):
I had a, an associate who was a good friend
of mine who lost her brother andhe was a wrestler and into that
kind of stuff.
And I remember we were watchingvideos in one of our classes for
teaching perseverance orsomething.
And, we could pick, like fivedifferent ones as a teacher.
And I loved the wrestling one.
(36:04):
It was about a kid who didn'thave, He couldn't really use his
legs, but was still able towrestle.
And, I remember putting that onand having it on for like two or
three minutes and she looks atme and she just leaves the room.
and I felt horrible at the timeafterwards, but she had to make
that connection for me, but nowlooking back, I'm like, man, I
was an a hole like I could havepicked the sprint runner one,
(36:26):
or, all these things.
Or I could have said Hey, stepout of the room.
you don't need to be here forthis 30 minutes because.
This isn't going to be
Dr. Dean (36:32):
hm, mm hm,
Kelly Stiffler (36:34):
and just looking back in those moments and also
like realizing, it's a club thatyou don't know exists until it
happens to you that nobodyshould want to ever, I don't, I
wouldn't wish it on my worstenemy, like to be part of this
club.
Cause you feel like part ofyourself is missing.
Cause you grew up.
He was the middle child.
(36:55):
He always lets you know he wasthe middle child.
Dr. Dean (36:58):
In what way?
Kelly Stiffler (37:00):
every way, my sister got braces, he didn't, he
desperately needed them,according to him, the dentist
said, nah, really, they had thesame teeth, they had my mom's
crummy teeth, that was on her.
and then I had my dad's teethand I had the good teeth.
So he didn't get braces, Katiegot braces, Kelly got the good
(37:20):
teeth.
He was balding.
That was from my mom.
like just all the middle childthings that he could do, he
would do and let you know.
and he was the only boy, right?
So there was that too.
Not all people want to talkabout their siblings, I would
assume, ask me anything you wantto know, because talking about
him or hearing a story about howhe tried to light a fart on fire
(37:41):
when he was in high school at aparty, that reminds me of him
and brings him back in my brain,and the longer he's gone, the
more you don't have those.
New stories.
So bring them back all the time.
I don't care if they're filledwith every F word under the sun,
bring them back, And so that's,I think the part where I just
(38:02):
told Katie, cause I was like,this is probably going to come
out in the podcast that like.
I'm jealous of her because I was18, went to college, moved, two
hours away, two and a half hoursaway.
He was 14.
She would have been eight.
And so she was home for his highschool years.
(38:23):
I wasn't.
And so I don't have some ofthose memories that she has, I
knew several of his friends andas he got older and I lived in
the Quad Cities again, I knewmore of them, but some of them
that came in at the memorial,I'd be like, Katie, and she's
like, that's so and so.
And I was like, okay, I don'tknow how you figured out that's
who that was, because also theywere grownups.
(38:44):
And, the last time I'd seen someof them, they were 18, 19, but I
don't have some of those corememories that she would have
because I wasn't there.
And you do kind of start to showyour personality in high school
and he was spicy before.
And so I'm sure he was spicywhen he was in high school.
so there is that piece that'sdang, I got robbed.
(39:04):
And then I moved back home.
I taught muscatine for fouryears and then I moved back to
the Quad Cities and taught therefor four years before I met my
husband.
so I was around for likeeverything my little sister did
in high school, I went to allthe plays, but when you move to
college and you don't have acar, you just aren't home as
much.
I do have those jealousy momentswhere I'm like, Oh, I wasn't
(39:26):
here for that because I was incollege, which is a normal life
thing that you don't know you'reever going to be jealous of,
right?
Dr. Dean (39:33):
hmm.
Right.
It's interesting because youwere there when he was little
too.
Like she wouldn't have had thosetypes of memories.
Kelly Stiffler (39:40):
That's true.
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (39:42):
Yeah.
And for our listeners that Yoursister was on a prior episode.
So I think maybe we can cometogether and have a conversation
about this together.
Like all both of you, if you'reup to that.
Kelly Stiffler (39:57):
yeah, of course,
Dr. Dean (39:58):
Have you talked to her about that?
What it was like to not
Kelly Stiffler (40:02):
just recently, like I
Dr. Dean (40:04):
same memories?
Kelly Stiffler (40:05):
yeah, just recently, I told her, I'm like,
this is going to probably comeout.
I'm like, because I've reallybeen working through it
internally, like being jealous.
And she's like, Oh, I don'tthink she saw that.
But then she's like, but thatmakes sense.
cause you weren't there and it'sjust by birth order.
I wasn't there.
and so when they would go do alot of their political stuff
(40:26):
where he would take her placeswith him, I didn't live there,
so I didn't do those things withthem.
As I moved back home, I know shetold you the story or told
listeners at this point, thestory of picking him up when he
was drunk downtown, and himsmelling terrible and all those
things.
so we do have some of those corememories together, of him and
(40:47):
his, Wilder stage, and I neverthought about it for her.
That she would not remember himas much as the younger him.
So that's a good, although hewas naughty.
So maybe some of those memoriesshe doesn't want to remember.
Dr. Dean (41:06):
that sounds like.
Part of his spiciness, as yousaid, right?
Kelly Stiffler (41:09):
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
And it was, kicking a hole inthe door in the bathroom because
it was the only room in thehouse that locked and I had
tagged him last.
So I ran into the bathroom andhid and locked the door and then
he was mad.
So he kicked the door and cheapdoors are hollow.
And so you put your foot throughit.
Parents weren't very happy
Dr. Dean (41:25):
Mm hmm.
Kelly Stiffler (41:27):
Pretty sure that's still in the upstairs
Dr. Dean (41:28):
I bet Before I ask you the last question about memories
Is there anything else youwanted to share that you that we
would talk about today?
Kelly Stiffler (41:38):
just that sibling grief is something that
is way harder than I thinkpeople know or anticipate.
Dr. Dean (41:47):
Mm
Kelly Stiffler (41:48):
and like those.
Anniversaries that seem silly,and that's one thing I've worked
through is I'm usually good inthe day, which again, like you
said, leads to thecharacteristic of taking care of
people.
like, on his birthday or on hisdeath day or on, the first
(42:09):
Christmas, like I'm pretty goodin those days.
I can handle myself, but thenAfter that is the hardest for
me, his birthday is January 2nd.
We typically have that day offfrom school.
but this year, I didn't go backto school till January 4th.
my therapist and I are like,you're not going to be ready to
be around people that day.
(42:30):
so we made an appointment.
So I went and saw her on thatday and that kind of thing.
And so I think identifying.
When your body knows, like whenyour body is going to let you
know and have those, thephysical symptoms, one of the
biggest struggles I've beenhaving right now is just the
emotional exhaustion and thebrain fog, right?
(42:51):
the last two weeks of school,I'm I'm here, but I'm not sure
I'm here as my best self.
And so being aware of that forpeople who.
are listening to this becausethey just lost a sibling, or
being aware of that as someonewho's supporting someone who's
lost a sibling.
it'll be two years in February,March and that, still hits
(43:12):
randomly at any time and I thinkwhat I've realized is during the
summer when you have one ofthose emotionally taxing days as
a teacher, then the next day Icould just really Not talk to
anyone, turn on a TV show, allowmy mental self to recuperate.
when you're going to schoolevery day and you're around
people, which I love my job, I'mnot gonna, I don't want to
(43:34):
change that, nor do I wantanyone to think I don't, but
your body doesn't get the timeto recuperate that it needs from
being around people.
And I have found that to be mostchallenging for me.
And also I don't like to goplaces anymore.
My husband will say I'm alwaysfine once I get there, but it's
hard to get me to agree to go,especially if he's not going,
(43:57):
because I just don't want to bein that situation where I'm
constantly feeling thatemotional exhaustion.
Dr. Dean (44:07):
That's such great awareness, and thank you for
sharing that.
I think that's a lot of goodadvice in there.
So are there some favoritememories you want to share about
you and Josh?
No,
Kelly Stiffler (44:21):
many.
Dr. Dean (44:22):
fine.
Kelly Stiffler (44:25):
know what Katie shared, so I don't know if any
of them would overlap.
but I rented a house in the QuadCities when I taught there and
my cousins were all in town andI don't even know what everybody
was in town for but we went overto my uncle's house who lives in
the Quad Cities as well and youknow he grilled out and we were
(44:46):
hanging out and then we were thecousins.
Minus my little sister.
Cause she was still too young atthis point, I believe we're
going to go to the bar and, heapparently had taken Benadryl
that day because of hisallergies or he wasn't feeling
good or something.
I don't remember what, and thenhad alcohol on top of that.
(45:07):
And he like lost his ever livingminds, like hanging out of the
sunroof of my cousin's car,calling names.
And then He got mad at me whenwe got back to my house I don't
know what I said.
I don't remember what I said tohim, but he refused to come in
the house then.
so he was like laying in myfront yard.
and then I was like, dude, theneighbors are going to call the
(45:27):
cops.
Like you cannot lay in my frontyard.
this is a quiet littleneighborhood.
And so then he went and laid onthe back of the picnic table.
And then he had called my littlesister.
So she came and got him in hiscar.
Luckily, because then at thebottom of my big hill, he had to
open the door and lost hisdinner.
and so then we reflected okay,Benadryl and liquor, not quite a
(45:49):
good mix for you, Joshua.
And fast forward to two weekslater, you could laugh really
hard at it.
And the moment he was super madat me because I told him he
couldn't go out with us becausehe couldn't handle his stuff.
And he could, Kelly, but hecould not.
That was one of those where, youjust look at it and you laugh
and just all the times like hewould be with kale like all the
(46:10):
things or like combing throughmy kids text messages, because,
that's I guess one positive tomy son having a cell phone is
combing through and he wouldrandomly get a text from him
about how proud he was.
And I was like, I didn't know hesent him those texts, he would
tell me, but I didn't know hejust would reach directly out to
him.
(46:31):
And so that was cool.
and then, watching him become adad and my nieces are adopted
through foster care.
And so watching them, becometheirs and get to change their
last name to Brennan.
That was a pretty awesome day.
he was a big kid, but reallydidn't have any desire to play
(46:52):
competitive sports like thatjust wasn't in him.
And so when he went to highschool, he was fearful.
That the football coaches wouldgive him a hard time because he
was a good sized kid, but he's Idon't really want to do it have
any desire to and, I rememberhim calling me or seeing him and
he's like, Hey, coach asked mewhy I didn't play football.
And I said, I didn't really liketo play competitive sports.
(47:14):
He's okay, cool.
And then he's been nice to meever since.
And I was like, yeah, I told youit would be fine.
And, he's Yeah, he was realcool.
He's real cool about it.
the number of times he tried toget me to hide my report card or
my progress reports from myparents because he wouldn't play
the game.
And so his were never what theywere supposed to be.
(47:34):
And mine always were, fairlywhat they were supposed to be.
And, depending on where we wereat in our life, whether I would
be like, no, I'm going to ratyou out.
or I'd be like, okay, fine.
I'll just leave them in mybackpack.
But it would depend, was hegoing to do something for me?
Were we currently fighting?
Were we currently at our best?
So it always depended.
and the number of times he wouldbe like, dude, could you have
(47:56):
been just a little bit of a rulebreaker when you were in high
school?
So these teachers would not belike, you're Kelly's brother.
And I'd be like, Oh, sorry.
I don't know what to tell you.
I was like, well, my senioryear, I walked around a lot
during homeroom.
He's like, yeah, but you signedin every day in the guidance
office.
So they never counted youabsent.
I was like, well, yeah, but theydidn't figure out that's what I
did.
(48:17):
And he's like, yeah, that's notreally breaking the rules.
And I was like, I tried, I don'tknow what to tell you.
Cause he went to high school,obviously right after I
graduated.
So he had many of the sameteachers and harassed me about,
and then I think my sister gotit on the flip side.
some of the teachers didn'tremember me as much anymore, but
they're like, you're Josh'ssister.
Cause of all the students, shewas the best probably.
(48:39):
Cause she cared more than I, Igot good grades without really.
trying too hard, but I was inhigh school to socialize.
And I think she went for thewhole, like academics and
socialization.
So I just was more about,hanging out with my friends.
looking back, I realized incollege that it was hard and I
(49:00):
should have studied, but, Andthe number of times I remember
him fighting with my parents andmy mom threatening to send them
to boy's town, which I don'teven know if that's a thing or
what that is.
but Him just him getting to thepoint where he's you're not
going to do it.
You've said you're going to doit for a hundred times and
you're not going to do it.
And just, just him, callingtheir bluff clearly.
(49:21):
And I wouldn't say he was everlike, he didn't break laws or
like, I don't want people tothink he was out stealing cars.
Cause he didn't do any of thatkind of stuff.
He just wasn't going to play agame in a society that he, when
he knew how to do stuff andthings like that.
And that also meant at home.
Where like, even if you werelike, I remember them clearly
getting into a fight about himgoing to a party.
(49:44):
Cause like my mom, you don'tdrink underage.
You don't go to those parties.
And my brother was like, mom,I'm gonna go to that party.
I'm not going to drink, but I'mgoing to drive my friends home.
That might drink so that nobodygets in an accident.
I feel like he was still eventhen advocating for his friends,
right?
they're going to do somethingstupid and I want to make sure
they're safe.
Where I probably wasn't, Ididn't have that nerve, to do
(50:06):
that.
When I would have never told myparents I was going to a party
if I went to a party withalcohol at it.
And he just was like, I'm goingand you're not much you're going
to do about it.
cause I think he was like asenior.
And she's and she clearly wasn'thappy about it, but, in his
mind, he wanted everyone to gethome safe.
I remember one of him, himtelling me after the fact that
(50:29):
several of his friends werelike, Hey, will your sister buy
us alcohol?
cause I was 22 when they were 18and he's like, no.
And they're like, you didn'teven ask her.
He's like, yeah, I don't wanther to lose her teaching
license.
So she's not going to buy usalcohol.
Get over yourselves.
And so like just him having thatawareness, like he never even
brought it up to me until he waslike telling me the story, oh,
so and so asked me to ask you tobuy alcohol.
(50:51):
And I was like, really?
And he's like, yeah.
And he's like, I said, no.
So still just, sticking up, notputting you in
Dr. Dean (50:59):
Yeah.
Mm.
Kelly Stiffler (51:00):
that's just.
Yes, 100%.
I remember, I don't remember alot of childbirth after Kale was
born, but I remember, they alldid officially, come up and were
in the waiting room waiting, andthen, things went a little
crazy, and, they let my familyhave the room next to us because
(51:23):
there wasn't anybody in there,and at one point, when they were
in the room working with me, mymom had Kale, Next door.
They let her take him next door.
and I remember hearing from mybrother later, how traumatized
he was because the nurse hadpulled off kills the cap on his
head and was like, do you wantto see what 10 centimeters looks
(51:45):
like?
Cause you could like, there waslike a ring on his poor little
head.
And my brother was like, Oh.
No, thank you.
And walked away and, I justremember those kind of core
memories and then just him beingthe best human, my husband ended
up with cellulitis when I waspregnant with kale and, spiked a
high fever, we went to thehospital.
(52:07):
and then they were like, if hehas a blood clot, we're going to
send him home.
And they had to do differenttests.
And I was like, he can barelywalk.
how am I going to get him in thehouse?
And I remember texting with mymom and my parents and, talking
to them.
And so lo and behold, My brothershows up an hour and a half
later and he had driven up hereto be here that if he had to
(52:29):
help because he's like you can'tget him into the house if he's
you know if he's coming home andso like just that blessing of
having my brother there and thenhe came home with me and stayed
because they admitted Chadobviously and he was there for
several days but he came homeand stayed with me and you know
made sure everything was goodhere and Chad's a big guy.
I'm a big guy.
(52:49):
If we need to get him in thehouse, it's not going to be you.
So he didn't think anything ofit and drove up and it was after
10, it was probably midnightwhen he got there, but he's
like, well, mom and dad can'tcome because they have to work.
I'm, I just said I couldn't bethere tomorrow morning.
And I was like, that just meantso much because I didn't know.
I was panicked, and you go intothat, like, how am I going to
(53:10):
take care of this person thathas to be here?
Cause I was like, he can barelywalk.
How's he going to get to thebathroom?
Josh is like, I'll just stay.
so just those kinds of thingsthat you don't even ask for, but
he'd just show up and do.
Dr. Dean (53:22):
Yeah, it sounds like his insistence on being an organ
donor was this last act ofmaking sure every, he could take
care of as many people as hecould.
So how fitting.
Kelly Stiffler (53:35):
Yeah.
we always talk that we didn'tget the miracle we were praying
for, but several people got themiracles that gosh only knows
how long they were praying for,right?
one of the kidney donors, he, hehad to go to dialysis all day.
I think it was three or fourtimes a week.
And so now he, when he would beable to spend time with his
family and his grandkids, it's apretty big blessing for that
(53:56):
family.
Dr. Dean (53:56):
thank you for sharing all of this and chatting and I
look forward to staying intouch.
Kelly Stiffler (54:02):
Yeah.
100%.
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (54:05):
Thank you so much for listening.
Our theme song was written byJoe Mylwood and Brian Dean, and
was performed by Joe Mylwood.
If you would like moreinformation on the Broken Pack,
go to our website, the brokenpack.com.
Be sure to sign up for ournewsletter, Wild Grief, to learn
about opportunities and receiveexclusive information and
grieving tips for subscribers.
(54:25):
Information on that, our socialmedia and on our guests can be
found in the show notes whereveryou get your podcasts.
Please follow, subscribe, andshare.
Thanks again.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.