January 17, 2024 • 53 mins
Sibling Loss Decades Later : A Heartfelt Conversation with Eric Grace
Surviving sibling Eric Grace shares his sibling loss experience of losing his brother, Kyle, in a tragic car accident over 25 years ago. Through his story, Dr. Dean and Eric explore the complexities of sibling loss, grief, and the lasting impact on surviving siblings.
Eric and Dr. Dean explore the impact his sibling loss has had on his life, views about death and living, his work in helping others , and his purpose in living.
To learn more about Eric, see the following:
Website: https://www.eric-grace.com
Instagram: @soulfulrelationships and @ericfgrace
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ericfgrace
Clubhouse: The Wholly Human House at https://www.clubhouse.com/house/the-wholly-human-house-rrgxbbn5
If you would like more information or to share your own adult sibling loss story, please contact me, Dr. Angela Dean, at contact@thebrokenpack.com or go to our website, thebrokenpack.com.
Please like, subscribe, and share!
Please follow us on social media:
Facebook: @BrokenPack
Instagram: @thebrokenpack
TikTok: @the_broken_pack
YouTube: @thebrokenpack
Sign-up for Wild Grief™, our newsletter: https://thebrokenpack.com/newsletter
Thank you!
Angela M. Dean, PsyD, FT
Credits:
The Broken Pack™ Podcast is produced by 27 Elephants Media
"If Tomorrow Starts Without Me" © ℗ 2023, 2024
Written by Joe Mylward and Brian Dean
Performed by Fuji Sounds (feat. MYLWD.)
Licensed for use by The Broken Pack™
Now available on all streaming platforms including Apple Music & Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/3vx3kk46
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Dean (00:12):
Hello and welcome to the Broken Pack, a podcast
focused on giving adultsurvivors of sibling loss, a
platform to share their storiesand to be heard.
Something that many sibling losssurvivors state that they never
have had.
Sibling Loss is Misunderstood™.
The Broken Pack exists to changethat and to support survivors.
(00:32):
I'm your host, Dr.
Angela Dean.
In today's episode I spoke withEric about losing his brother
Kyle in a tragic motor vehicleaccident.
This accident, while it happenedmany years ago, has had a
significant impact on him andhow he has viewed life, viewed
death and living, how he workswith other people, and his
(00:53):
purpose in living.
Take a listen.
Welcome to the show.
Would you like to introduceyourself?
Eric Grace (01:07):
Yeah.
My name is Eric Grace and I ama, Emotive Body, Ensoulment
practitioner, and, I also havemy own cleaning business.
I think we're going to talktoday about I'm, I don't know
what the word is.
It's not quite survivor, but, myolder brother passed away back
in 1998, so we're going to diveinto that, and I'm also the host
(01:28):
of the Wholly Human House onClubhouse, that's another thing
I love to do, in addition tobeing a musician and a writer
and all sorts of fun things.
Dr. Dean (01:37):
Fantastic.
What is the wholly, I'm sorry,wholly
Eric Grace (01:40):
Wholly human house.
Yeah, so that's been going onfor a couple years now and
basically it's a space forpeople to come together and i've
done all sorts of courses onthere on different spiritual
teachings and psychologicalinquiry.
It's a group where people candiscover more about themselves
and relationality it's open toanyone, and it's free, but it's
(02:01):
an atmosphere of curiosity and,discovery and also just taking
time to see what's going oninside of us and, to be able to
share that with others in a waythat's, supportive and,
sometimes fun and sometimes,making room for the pain that's
there if there's grief orwhatever it might be.
(02:21):
So it's one of those safe spacesfor that.
Dr. Dean (02:24):
Sounds fantastic.
And are you a licensedpractitioner?
The
Eric Grace (02:28):
Yeah, I was trained in EBE for short, years ago,
back in early 2000s, and then Itook a break from all of that,
for many years and then startedup again not that long ago, a
couple years ago.
I've also been a watsupractitioner, an ordained
priest.
I was trained as a, death cafefacilitator as well.
(02:49):
And, Trillium awakening mentorand, went to school for
psychology and music andsociology and, economics was the
first thing that I actuallystudied in.
So yeah,
Dr. Dean (03:02):
Sound like you're a bit of a renaissance man.
Eric Grace (03:05):
something like that.
You bet.
Lots of things I've beeninterested in over the years.
Dr. Dean (03:10):
Yeah.
thank you for the greatintroduction.
before we dive into the story oflosing your brother, what would
you want our listeners to knowabout Kyle?
Eric Grace (03:18):
The interesting thing with Kyle is, his spirit
totally lives on, so I stillhave contact with him from time
to time, which is intriguing initself.
Not everybody has that whensomeone passes.
and I'll dive into that more aswe get into the story, but, Kyle
is a theatrical being, and wasfrom the get go, a lot of
vitality.
A lot of humor, quite a dork,goofy, in that way, but could be
(03:42):
very loud and funny and playfuland creative.
yeah, fun, silly.
And, I just love him so much.
Just love him.
And he loves me and loved me.
Someone that I felt so close to,from the get go when I was born,
he was there, he wasn't so onboard with me being there.
(04:03):
He was kind of like, who's thiskid coming on the scene.
He acclimated over time and, wespent a lot of good years
playing and we would create,little plays.
He became a director and ascreenplay, writer.
And, I would do all the voicesof the little puppets that we
had and stuff.
We put it on for our family.
So We had this wholecollaboration and creativity
component to our relationship.
(04:24):
And, yeah, he was, quite, quitea mensch, just a good guy.
Good
Dr. Dean (04:29):
Yeah.
So I think I remember from yourform that he was three years
older than you?
Eric Grace (04:34):
Yeah.
Three and a half.
August 1st was his birthday.
I'm born in April.
He was born in 74.
I was born in 77, so three and ahalf.
Dr. Dean (04:44):
Yeah.
And you said he wasn't terriblyexcited to have a little brother
at first, but how was yourrelationship after that?
Eric Grace (04:51):
I think he, endured that I was there, in the
beginning, and then he warmed upto me.
And we had a lot of fun years inthose, Early years, a lot of
play went on, and then as he gotolder, my dad was a, a
functional alcoholic, so a lotof the stuff there with my dad,
I think he still had PTSD fromhis father, stuff that happens
(05:12):
in the war, and then peoplebring it home, I think that
existed in my family, and thenalcohol got woven into that, My
dad was sometimes so reallyscary to be around and my older
brother took on a lot of that inthe beginning And then as he got
older, he started to send it tome So it was like the pass down
of the generational trauma, youknow That's how it went through
(05:33):
and so when I was eight nine tenThere was a lot more of tension
that he didn't want me around.
Especially as he got in his teenyears.
We'd get into major fights likeParents would be gone, we'd be
in
Dr. Dean (05:46):
hmm.
Mm hmm.
Eric Grace (05:47):
and a couple of hours wrestling to the point
where we'd almost, You get aperson to headlock and just be
squeezing so hard and they startto lose the air into their
brain.
it'd be like that kind of thing,very intense.
and we learned about ourstrength and power, in those
kind of conflicts.
culturally, like we would watchthe WWF and football and things
(06:10):
like that.
So there was this whole thingaround masculinity and that's
what guys do.
But also our dad could be reallyrough with us.
So we were trying to play outwhat was being sent our way
towards each other.
And then when I got to be about12 or 13, I was big enough to
stop him, to actually say, no,he can't do this anymore.
Dr. Dean (06:32):
To your dad or to your
Eric Grace (06:33):
brother To actually both.
It happened around that sametime.
I had a big altercation with mydad where, I knocked him down
after he was attacking me and Iran out of the house, but I
knocked it down.
And after that, he neverattacked me again.
And my brother right around thattime.
We were fighting, and I won.
And, after that, just stopped.
Dr. Dean (06:52):
Mm hmm.
Eric Grace (06:54):
what that did for our relationship, though, in
later years, is we knew, at areally instinctual level, each
other.
body to body, dominate, Survivalthat stuff was really we had
worked through a lot of that.
And then as we got older, wejust became really close
friends.
And once he had moved out of thehouse and went to college, and
(07:16):
then I moved out.
so yeah, when you have someonethat They've seen all the sides
of you like, just the things youdon't show everybody else, or
the things that kind ofrelationship really evokes that
doesn't always come out withother relationships.
there was a different kind oftrust that he and I had that we
could show any part of ourselvesand, we weren't, we were still
(07:38):
loving each other, and we couldnot only have the playful
creative components.
but if we got in a conflict,we'd be really honest with each
other.
And, we could trust each other'sfeedback and there was no BS.
Dr. Dean (07:52):
Sounds very much like the sibling relationship where,
friends don't always see all ofour sides and our parents don't
either.
So I think what you're speakingto is something unique in the
sibling relationship from thatearly age on.
Of course, you can develop otherrelationships that are similar,
Eric Grace (08:09):
Yeah.
And with our age difference, Ithink.
Different siblings can havedifferent forms of relationships
based on the age and the kind ofparenting experience they have.
Like my younger brother, he'sseven years different than me
and he was 11 years differentfrom my older brother and he got
a very different experience withour parents.
Then Kyle and I did.
(08:30):
Kyle and I were able to shareenough of that same window of
time with our parents to havesympathy and empathy for what we
went through.
whereas my younger brother, hejust had a different, he had his
own challenges with my parentshaving a divorce and everything,
and it's just, but he had adifferent relationship,
especially with our father.
Our father was kinder with him.
so I think that's anotherdimension with siblings is even
(08:53):
though you can have the sameparents depending on sometimes
gender and sometimes dependingon your age gap, the birth
order, all of that.
I
Dr. Dean (09:03):
Attachment.
Eric Grace (09:04):
yeah, exactly.
Attachment styles and with Kylebeing first and then I was
second and then Brent was third.
I saw in the beginning yearswhat it was like to be the
youngest child.
And I really loved being thebaby of family with getting that
kind of attention.
And then when Brent was born, Igot lost in the middle.
So I got to feel what that'slike to be the middle child.
(09:25):
And then when Kyle died, then Iwas the oldest.
And so I could feel like, oh,there's different pressures and
things that come with being theoldest and different challenges.
birth order really plays a partfor siblings as far as their
identity and their challengeswith one another in ways that
may not understand what, how oneanother is experiencing the
family.
Dr. Dean (09:45):
Yeah, I would agree with that.
I do think it's important tostate that there's.
not a blanket birth order, likenot all the oldest and not all
the youngest are a certain way,but because of all of those
other factors that you mentionedand family dynamics and ages and
stages and all of those things.
but I'm glad that you were ableto see how that played out.
(10:08):
So Brent is, you said sevenyears younger than you.
Okay.
are there other things that youwant to share about your
relationship with Kyle asadults?
How did that change?
Eric Grace (10:18):
Yeah, well, it changed Once he went up to
college, I really wanted toleave the house and go up to the
college, too.
We had a neighbor friend, Dan,who was my brother Kyle's really
good friend for many years andthen they roomed roommates
together up in college up inDuluth And I so wanted to go be
a part of their world it seemedlike they had freedom, you know
(10:38):
from all the shit was going onthat was going on at home and
that last year they were also ayear apart so Dan stayed behind
one year for his senior year andthat year he and I became close
we were in a musical togetherand all of that.
So When he left to go to UMD aswell and they were both living
there it was like I still wantto be a part of that And then I
(10:59):
just felt like the odd wheel outI would go and visit every once
in a while and Dan was amusician i'd get into you know
wanting to watch his band playmusic and all that and go see
Kyle's plays that he was a partof and just seemed like it was
so exciting, I wanted to be apart of the cool thing.
but then, at a certain point, Irealized that's just not where
I'm at., and I focused on therest of my life, other things
(11:20):
that were going on my life.
And, Then for a couple of years,we just didn't have that much
contact.
It was mainly through, at thattime, it was just snail mail,
because there really wasn'tanything else.
He would send me a poem that hewrote, or we'd write about what
was going on.
I don't think he really knewwhat He wasn't tracking the kind
of challenges in our family atthe time with my mom and dad
(11:41):
separating and just this stuffthat was happening around that.
I ended up going to college at adifferent place and then I left
after the first year and wenttraveling all around the country
and I ended up landing inArizona and Sedona and, had just
a lot of synchronicity, a lot ofmagic, a lot of beautiful life
experiences there.
(12:03):
And I started telling him aboutit, and he came and visited me
one time and stayed where I wasstaying, and he was inspired to
come down there and eventuallymoved down there.
in 97, he moved down and welived in the same space, and
then we were like roommatesliving together.
not long after, my mom ended upmoving down, and, there was this
(12:25):
place that opened up for all ofus to stay.
and my girlfriend at the timeand her daughter, we all moved
in together and it was like afamily redo 2.
0 or something, and thatrelationship then for Kyle and I
was closest.
I've probably ever been withsomeone.
Because we were, in thebeginning stages, it was him and
I were sharing a really largeroom space.
(12:47):
And, same kind of creativecollaborations on things.
He was a movie critic at thetime, and a writer, and a
waiter, and he was doingmultiple jobs.
And we'd go see films together,and he was working on a book, so
I would edit kind of some of thestuff he was doing.
it was just a lot of fun.
And in the family, house space,Game night, like just, it was a
(13:09):
really good time of about 10months.
We also, started doing the EBEprocess that I'm trained in.
We all started doing thattogether, going through that as
clients.
So there was a lot of growingand a lot of discovery that was
happening, internally that wewere sharing with one another.
It was a precious time and thatlasted about 10 months and then.
(13:31):
There was a girl still back in,Minnesota that had been his
friend for many years and waspartnered to one of his friends.
And, they had been pen pals andall that since he had moved down
to Sedona.
but he went back to visit inMinnesota and this was after he
wrote his book, Standing on theEdge, which was all about his
relationship with Dan and mydad.
(13:51):
And he ended up connecting withboth of them and talking about
their relationships.
It was a very healingexperience, I think, for all of
them.
But during that visit, while hewas doing that, he met up with
this girl Piper and Scott, herpartner and his friend.
And, it, during that visit, itbecame really apparent that
Piper and Kyle really wanted tobe together.
They were really interested ineach other and Scott and Piper
(14:14):
had been together for a whileand they decided that they were
going to end.
It was no longer a good fit forthem.
And so things really changed forKyle.
He was like, I want to be withPiper.
And so once he got back fromthat three week trip, he was
like, I'm going to drive upthere and, pick up Piper.
And then we're going to move outto Seattle together.
That was the.
(14:35):
Kind of the shift.
Dr. Dean (14:37):
Mm,
Eric Grace (14:38):
I was sad about that, but it felt right.
It was a really good happening,for both of them.
I felt like they were a reallygood fit for each other.
and then it was on that trip ashe was driving up that he died
in a car accident in 98 inSandpoint, Idaho.
really beautiful part of, Idaho.
(14:58):
and unexpected.
he wasn't the greatest driverand he was pretty reckless at
times.
when he was in high school, hehad messed up my parents car
once or twice.
He and I went in on a cartogether.
We bought a car together and hetotaled that car.
So I didn't get to drive it.
and.
There was always a little bit ofrecklessness in him, and so I
(15:20):
think he was driving down theroad and was trying to get like
a CD or something that was onthe passenger floor and then
swerved and then overcorrectedand went over the median and
then there was a FedEx truckthat just crashed into his small
little car and just basicallyrolled over the thing and he was
crushed and died instantly.
(15:40):
Yeah, pretty nasty, gory.
And, the driver of the truck,his name was Brent Allen Jessup.
And that's the first two namesof my younger brother.
Brent Allen McDonough was hisbirth name.
And it was one of thoseinteresting synchronicities.
We ended up getting to knowBrent to this guy, Brent Jessup
(16:02):
afterwards is my wife, my momand Piper and I all drove, flew
up there and then spent timelooking through
Dr. Dean (16:10):
Mm,
Eric Grace (16:11):
all the things, because when Kyle was taking
this drive, he put everything heowned in his car.
So when the car got smashed.
Everything got scattered all
Dr. Dean (16:21):
I have a while,
Eric Grace (16:21):
I mean, it was, there was like, we went to the
crash site and there was likebroken CDs and bits of the
computer that he had.
And it was just smashed allover.
and, so we went there to bothget his remains and, get the
last bits of what was left ofhis own things, his personal
items.
And we found a couple of thingsthat were really valuable, like
(16:44):
the journal he had been usingwhile he was on this trip, which
was really sweet, like some ofthe poetry he had written in
there and just the differentstories of his experiences.
and, I think the other thingthat was important was when he
had died, I knew we weren'tgoing to be able to get there
for a while, so I asked the, thecoroner or the mortician or
(17:05):
whatever they were called, Isaid, Can you take some pictures
of the body?
Because I somehow knew that if Ididn't have some kind of
concrete evidence.
It would be like he's still onvacation.
He's still gone somewhere likeit wouldn't register.
And since I knew he was going tobe, cremated before we came, I
(17:25):
needed something around his bodyto be like the remains weren't
going to mean much to me.
They would just, it would justseem like it was ash.
So the picture they took, whichwas a really gory picture of his
body after the crash, but itreally was important for me to
register the reality of himbeing gone.
And, everyone else is like, whydo you want to do that?
It's so gross.
But it's it really made sense tome and helped me come to at
(17:49):
least some kind of closure thatdid happen.
He did die.
I wasn't there to see it, but itdid really happen.
And, that could at least startthe process for part of me
around the grief.
Dr. Dean (18:00):
Yeah.
I think that's an interestingthing of people that I've talked
to is some people want toabsolutely see the body to get
that, sense that the person isgone.
I know, and I've shared thisbefore, is that I took a photo
of my brother in the casket forthat reason.
I knew that I would forget, notforget, but it wouldn't seem
real.
I was not going to forget, butother people don't want to see
(18:22):
it.
So that's, that had to be hardto look at.
Eric Grace (18:26):
it was surreal, to see, his body was really
mangled.
So there's one level it's like.
Wow, I didn't know a body couldlook like that.
Dr. Dean (18:35):
Mm.
Eric Grace (18:37):
there's no one home.
Like it's just flesh.
There's no, there's nothingthere.
So that's that those two thingsmade it really surreal, but it
was enough familiar that I knewit was his body, but I'm just
glad that I asked for that, andwith both my parents have passed
to and being with both theirphysical bodies after they
(18:59):
passed really did something forme.
in both of those instances.
I was really grateful.
I don't know how it would havebeen to actually see his
physical body mangled like that.
That might have been a littletoo much.
But the picture was just right.
Yeah.
in helping me, they start toreconcile what had actually
occurred.
With him and in my life.
Dr. Dean (19:19):
Did you go back to it after you looked at it?
Eric Grace (19:22):
yeah, several times
Dr. Dean (19:23):
Mm-Hmm?
Eric Grace (19:24):
Yeah, and then with his ashes We ended up going to
Duluth and put him at some ofthe ashes in Lake Superior where
he loved to be and a coupleother locations in Sedona since
he was there, too you know therewas steps along the way of how
we were processing grief aroundthat
Dr. Dean (19:41):
Yeah.
Eric Grace (19:42):
Yeah, but one of the things that I haven't mentioned
kind of alluded to it at thebeginning here was, I was in
Sedona when he died and it wasin the morning.
I'm sitting on the riversidejust watching the river.
I was actually going throughsome grief around my father and
some of the relationshipdynamics.
So I was already in a grief kindof place.
(20:02):
My mom walks down and she tellsme, Eric, I just talked to the
sheriff up in Idaho and yourbrother's, Pat, your brother
died in a car accident.
And it sunk so deep inside ofme, I just started saying no,
and started yelling and wailing.
And the way the canyon is setup, where this creek is, the
(20:28):
canyon walls are pretty close.
So I could hear my wailing,echoing, reverberating off the
walls.
It was that loud.
And, I remember registering thatand then Kyle showed up in front
of me, his spirit as if, likewhat people say when Jesus was
resurrected and showed up orlike when people see ghosts,
(20:50):
like his form was completely infront of me uh, about 20 feet
out and he was smiling.
And he said, there's no need forsorrow, only for joy.
And it was so clear.
That I immediately stoppedwailing and I started laughing
because I felt our connection Ifelt the truth of what he was
(21:11):
saying and the only thing Icould do was just start laughing
And so everyone's around methis, I'm a family members my
mom and they're like looking atwhat the hell is going on with
you like but it was so visceral
Dr. Dean (21:24):
Mm-Hmm.
Eric Grace (21:25):
And I could not deny that he was right there and I
was seeing, I was seeing areality.
it wasn't the same physicalreality that other people were
seeing.
I was seeing that too.
so that started a very strangeprocess around grief and His
death because on the one levelhis physical body was smushed
(21:48):
and I was never gonna hug himagain I was never gonna spend
time with him and there's allthose nevers And I knew on some
level that something was goingto happen and we even got a a
hint about it, too When he hadcome down to visit For the first
time in Sedona, I was living ata guy's house, Len, who was a
(22:08):
psychic He worked at the postoffice, but he was a closet
psychic.
and so Kyle was saying, Hey,what do you think about me
becoming here?
And Len said, here's great, butdon't go up into the Northwest.
I get a really bad, like, do notgo there at least for a while.
And this was just a year laterthat year and a half later that
(22:29):
he went up there and then hedied up there.
So there's this littleForeshadowing that something was
going to happen there And thenwhen he left the house to go on
this driving route, that morningHe got up pretty early to go in
his car and I go and I hug himand I just start sobbing you
know, I just start sobbing wheni'm hugging and I just Something
(22:51):
so deeply in me felt like Iwasn't ever going to see him
again.
And I said, I don't need I don'teven know why I'm doing this.
I miss you.
I miss you already.
Like it was that I, it reallyregistered in me.
So things like that werehappening.
And then this moment where heshows up happens.
And then it was like
Dr. Dean (23:12):
Mm-Hmm.
Eric Grace (23:13):
the process of dealing with.
He's not in my life anymore asmy closest friend, really felt
like a soulmate that kind ofclose But yet he was connected
to me still I was still having arelationship with him on another
level and he would show up indreams It was there was people,
(23:36):
Sedona was very I don't know ifyou're anything about Sedona was
a very like Cornucopia ofspirituality and psychological
modalities and, palm readers andvortexes and all that.
So I knew I had so many friendsthat were, they were able to
check in and could hear him tooand report what he was saying.
(23:56):
And that was aligned with thethings that I would be getting
in, in the dreams and all that.
So I had a lot of, validationfor what I was experiencing.
At the same time, it was alsovery real that.
Something ripped in me when hedied, my trust in life and with
people started to fray.
Dr. Dean (24:19):
Mhm.
Eric Grace (24:21):
it also, what had already started with that
process, the EBE process thatall of us has started, something
was starting to open anywaysthere and this just ripped it in
an unexpected side way.
And, I think there was a part ofme that gave up on, on life and
people after that.
Dr. Dean (24:40):
Mhm.
Eric Grace (24:41):
Just feel like I'm never gonna have that kind of
relationship again with someonewhere I trust that deeply.
it took me several years to cometo terms with that reality that,
that rip that was inside of me.
Dr. Dean (24:56):
Mhm.
Eric Grace (24:57):
The loss and, the only person I could talk about
that with was Piper, who inKyle's leaving, she came and
visited us for a good month, wereally started to develop a new,
it's like I gained a sister,lost a brother, gained a sister
is what it felt like, and sothere was some ways I had
(25:17):
someone to commiserate with whatthe experience was like, but
the, that rip, It just felt likethat was never going to go away
and the grieving process wasreally wonky, and I think that
can be for many people, somepeople, like I remember my mom,
as a parent, losing a child,they've got their own process
(25:40):
and things that come with that.
Like for her, like holidays andstuff were really important, big
for bringing up feelings to sortout.
And for me, it would be like amovie I would watch.
I remember there was this onewith Tom Hanks.
It was all about 9 11.
And him losing someone and man,there was just a part in that
film where I just crackedwatching.
(26:01):
I just sobbed for a good twohours straight, so there'd be
like moments where Some kind oftrigger would bring it up and I
would just pull like everythingwould just come all out.
That was, still just buildinglike a dam, like the water
surrounding rather than acertain point.
And that happened for, manyyears, it was more palpable the
(26:25):
first year, like seeing theFedEx trucks or like
butterflies, like those things.
There were certain symbols thatgot connected to him around that
time that we all felt, or someof us felt.
And then.
Other things over time, GoodwillHunting, like there was there's
films and music.
I think we're a thing he and Ireally connected on.
(26:47):
So stuff like that would justreally stir the ache, the long
longing for that connection thatbrotherly connection.
and also just The loss and thenthat loss of trust with people,
that I really wrestled with fora long time, which I think is on
(27:10):
a soul level, some things I hadto deal with anyways, and his
death has helped me process hashelped bring that forward to
actually work through that,maybe I wouldn't have worked
through it in the same way withwithout him passing.
yeah, I guess I just want toemphasize how complicated that
was.
Thanks.
(27:30):
Knowing he was fine and feelingour connection still exists and
we'll probably have otherlifetimes together.
And when I leave this plan, heand I, when I leave this plane
of existence, we're going to behaving conversations similar to
what I experienced in our, inthe dream space.
so there's one way everything'sfine, but there is a very
(27:51):
specific dimension of where thatloss and grief existed and still
in moments, I was probably twoweeks ago.
I was being with a part of methat part still missed my
brother and I could feel mybrother come in the room
Dr. Dean (28:07):
hmm.
Eric Grace (28:08):
he was holding my left hand.
I could feel a presence aroundmy hand and him right there and
I just again another justletting go like feeling the sobs
and it felt so good to just feelthe love and the grief and let
it all be there.
Dr. Dean (28:24):
Yeah.
Thank you for sharing thatbecause I think for a lot of our
listeners and a lot of even ourguests, have lost their siblings
in recent years.
There's definitely a few thatit's been decades, but, I think
what you're highlighting is,grief lasts forever, and it
sounds like it's just aspalpable to you in moments now
(28:45):
than it was in 1998.
Eric Grace (28:48):
Yeah, the poignancy of it, say it's like the
waveform is in the beginning.
There's more of those punctuatedmoments of poignancy, and then
there's greater spans in betweenthe poignant moments now.
So it might be a year or two andthen boom, wow, there it is
again, and I've grown andmatured as a person and done a
(29:10):
lot of healing around that lossof trust and I'm more able to
open up with people now.
So like some of those dimensionsare not as poignant.
and there's when the weepingcomes, it feels more beautiful.
there's this, The beauty of thelove and the connection.
And, I can really, savor it, Iguess is the way to say, whereas
(29:34):
in the past it was like, therewas more like pleading or
wrestling with, or there's anacceptance now, real deep
acceptance.
But I totally welcome thepoignant moments when they crack
through and it's there and Ijust feel the love and the
beauty and the goodness of ourconnection.
Dr. Dean (29:54):
Sounds like that joy that he encouraged you to have
in the beginning is somethingthat you've been able to feel in
your, even with your sorrow.
Eric Grace (30:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Good point.
Dr. Dean (30:04):
hmm.
Mm
Eric Grace (30:06):
I had a lot of years after that, where I was in a lot
of suffering and struggle.
And now in a point in my lifewhere there's so much more joy.
So I think that phrase of howjoy is usually unprocessed love,
like that there's so much lovein the grief.
I think there's a lot of truthto that.
And if we open up more and moreto the love that we are, that
(30:27):
we're made of, that changes ourrelationship to grief and to
those that we lose.
Yeah,
Dr. Dean (30:35):
That's beautifully stated.
Thank you.
So I'm curious, about the deathcafe and how you ended up
facilitating that, where you arewith it, what that was like for
you,
Eric Grace (30:48):
Yeah.
so the death cafe is thisinternational organization.
Lots of pilots.
So different groups are going tobe different experiences for
sure.
But the one in Ashland, someyears ago, I learned of it.
It was a quarterly meeting thatwas held at a, it was a, at a
synagogue, actually.
And the first time I went, theyhad six or seven facilitators
(31:10):
there.
and it's open to a donation, butit can be free as well.
And the amount of people thatshowed up beyond the
facilitators was, I think it waslike 50 to 70 people, something
like that.
And then you just broke up intogroups of eight to 10 in
separate spaces.
And it was for two hours,basically, they would open up
(31:30):
the whole group together and oneperson would lead with saying,
sharing, like a poem orsomething in relationship to
grief, death, dying, living, andthen everyone would go into
their groups and we'd have thisbasic outline that you could use
as a reference, but you didn'thave to use it as far as
questions you could explorearound death and dying, and
(31:53):
grief and life where Thefacilitators were simply they
were there as participants aswell, so they could share their
own experience and they werebasically there just to make
sure no one hugs all the spaceor no one is cutting someone
else off or, those kind ofthings, right?
So It was just a space wherepeople could come together and
(32:15):
talk about these topics, whichtend to be taboo in our culture,
like most people don't talkabout it.
It seems too depressing ormorose or whatever, but this was
a space where in the sharing andit was really wide open.
You could talk about preparingfor your death.
So many elderly people would bethere talking about, I've lost
many friends.
I can see this is coming for me,and their thoughts, feelings
(32:38):
around that, or people that hadquestions like, Hey, what do I
do to prepare?
do I need to do an advanceddirective?
so practically kind of stuff, orHey, I just lost my mom and I am
just racked with grief, or Ijust lost my dad and I feel
relief.
What do I do with that?
Like it was the whole range or Idon't know anything about death.
(33:00):
I haven't lost anybody.
And I just want to hear otherpeople talk about death.
so it was, anything was welcomeand I love that.
death is something we all shareat some point, we're going to
experience it with someone inour lives passing most likely
and our own death is in thefuture.
So it's a common denominator,which we could all connect on
(33:22):
and find a dignity and Arealness around experience or
lack of experience and inquiryand curiosity around that topic.
So it was a great environmentand I went to several after that
and at a certain point I thinkthey asked me or I talked to one
of the people they're allwonderful people the
facilitators I said, what do youknow?
(33:44):
How do you become one of theseor i'm interested and they
invited me on and I ended updoing it for several years And
every time it's like a group ofpeople, strangers you'd never
met, and you start talking aboutdeath.
And it's like the stories thatcome out, the contemplations
about what do you want to, whatdo I want to do with my body
(34:06):
after it's, after I've died?
Some people want to just, it wasjust one guy that was like, I've
got this huge plot of land outin Grants Pass, and I just want
to put my body out and I wantthe birds to peck at it.
and I've talked to the city andby getting permits to make sure
that's okay, like all thesepeople have their different
preferences of what they wantwith their body, green burial.
(34:27):
I want to casket, the wholerange.
So those kind of conversationswould be had.
people having experiences likesome, there's a few that had
experiences like I did with mybrother, interacting with me
afterwards.
yeah.
It was just a rich space forconnection and conversation and
as a facilitator and as aparticipant and I did that for
(34:50):
many years I also inspired usreaching out to the university
To host them there so youngerpeople could have an opportunity
also to do that So we did thatthen we started working with the
nursing program that was a partof the university to help them
because they were you know beingworking with hospice and all
these different individuals thatare preparing so a lot of good
(35:11):
came out of that and Then COVIDstarted and we couldn't host in
person meetings anymore.
So then I felt like that was mytime to transition out, of doing
that, but it was such a richexperience.
And it really
Dr. Dean (35:23):
hmm.
Eric Grace (35:23):
me be that much more at point with my own
relationship with death and mybrother Kyle.
and I mean, I've lost a lot ofpeople on all my grandparents.
My aunt, godmother, my mom, mydad, my brother, a lot of
people.
I don't really have any familyfor the most part left besides
my younger brother and I, and myson.
Dr. Dean (35:44):
Yeah.
Eric Grace (35:45):
So that was a space where I could keep on reflecting
on where am I at
Dr. Dean (35:50):
Mm
Eric Grace (35:51):
relationships and the people that have passed.
And is there anything elsethat's called for here in
honoring them or honoringrelationship or feeling in a way
that I haven't felt yet?
Welcoming that, which causeevery death is unique.
when my mom died, I had a panicattack and I went into rage.
(36:14):
I felt rage and panic.
Because of our relationship withmy dad, when I was by his body,
I felt closer to my father whenhe was dead than when he was
ever alive.
And I felt so much peace andlove.
And so it's like each death isunique enough to itself, just
like the relationships andgiving oneself the permission to
(36:34):
really feel what you feel inrelationship to that person.
I find that's the most helpfulin supporting people to be real
with the experience versus anyshoulds that you might think.
You're trying to hold on toaround it, right?
Dr. Dean (36:50):
Right, shoulds are, yeah, they're problematic for
lots of reasons, but easy tofall into.
so you mentioned just nowchanges in the relationship, and
I think earlier you said evenseeing yourself as the oldest
brother now, like how is yourrelationship with Brent since
Kyle passed, right?
Eric Grace (37:09):
it's gone through a lot of stages cause that was a
98, 24 on this now it's beenpast the 20, 25 year mark.
he got into drugs and alcohol,when this all happened when he
was a teenager.
And where we were in, in Sedona,he got in with the wrong crowd.
He had a tough several yearsthere.
(37:32):
And then I fell into the role oftrying to take care of him.
and, having some form ofidentity tied into that as well.
And we need, we both needed tobreak from that dynamic.
I think that was overbearing forhim, for me towards him.
And for me, it felt like aburden at times of, I don't know
(37:52):
what to do.
Like with, I don't know how tohelp him.
When he finally found his waythrough all of that and got some
good support we started toreconnect.
And it also was like, we eachhad our own relationship with,
with Kyle, and there was just noway Either of us could be that
(38:13):
for the other.
So there was a little bit ofthat had to sort out, I think.
and over the last, I'd sayprobably eight years, something
like that, eight, 10 years,something like that.
We have found our own uniquerelationship post Kyle's death.
which is beautiful.
I think it's found its ownrhythm now.
And we've had a few visits, likehe's on the East coast now, with
(38:34):
his partner, Crystal, and we hada couple of nice visits back and
forth and, we connect a littlebit about music, a little bit
about football.
Those are the things that weare, our connection is.
There's, we don't spend lots oftime together, but I love him
and he loves me and we enjoyeach other when we're around
each other.
I think that's evolved in a goodway.
It's matured.
(38:56):
and we can talk about, our mom,our dad, and Kyle all being gone
and those relationships.
And I'm really curious about hisfeelings about them because
they're very different thanmine.
Dr. Dean (39:06):
Mhm.
He was a teenager when Kyledied.
Eric Grace (39:10):
yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (39:13):
Yeah, so I'm guessing that would be a different
experience, especially with theage difference and like you
said, the differentrelationships with each other.
Eric Grace (39:21):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (39:23):
Yeah.
are there other things that youwish people knew about losing a
sibling specifically?
Or wish that you had known?
Eric Grace (39:32):
some of the things that come to say about that was
going back to the shoulds, towhat was really beautiful around
that time.
I was in a very open, magicalperiod of my life where there
was a lot of freedom, a lot ofdiscovery.
And when his death happened,where I was living and how we
(39:52):
were living, we were very opento reflect, how do we want to be
with this?
Dr. Dean (40:00):
Mm hmm.
Eric Grace (40:00):
there's, depending on where you live in the world
and the communities you're apart of, and it's this is what
we do when someone dies.
And we were not like that.
And there was so much room toexperiment and feel into that
with many different people'sperspectives.
I really like how that happenedbecause I think sometimes we're
so conditioned about a certainthing that's just what we do,
(40:24):
and it's not actually what wouldnourish us.
Dr. Dean (40:27):
Right.
Eric Grace (40:28):
And so with all of those deaths in my life, they've
been very unique as far as theresponse and how I've responded
and how I participated in thepost death processes with
Kyle's.
There was a lot of people thatparticipated and.
When we went to, Minnesota tohave the memorial, our pastor
(40:52):
was so, welcoming because ourwhole family had spent so many
years there, even though wehadn't been there for many
years, he was just open door.
What do you want to do?
I will help facilitate whateveryou want to do.
Dr. Dean (41:05):
Mm hmm.
Eric Grace (41:07):
we call, we did a Native American thing of calling
in the four directions in aLutheran church while I sang
John Lennon's, Imagine in achurch, which says, even in the
tagline in there, in one of thelyrics is imagine if there's no,
religion.
it was, There was so much spacefor us to just do what we wanted
to do, and we made a beautiful,video that we played, and I sang
(41:32):
a song, and then, or Dan sang asong, and it was, we made this
beautiful mural of all picturesand artwork and his writing,
poetries and stuff, it wasgorgeous what we did, and I
think giving oneself the freedomto be in the unknown and listen
to what your own source ofinspiration.
(41:53):
Inklings are around it thatmaybe hadn't even considered
before.
Death can be a, an opening, areal opening to new life.
new experiences, new ways ofrelating to yourself and others.
And, that, that time was reallyprecious.
Now, on the other side, I thinkit's important to say too, since
(42:14):
all of us had gotten so closeramidst all that, at a certain
point, the grieving process,after like months, 2, 3, 4 being
around all the same people andeverybody's grieving.
It got to be too much.
It was like, oh, I just, I wentdown and I, I, I was in the
(42:35):
thick of it and I felt that I'm,and now I'm on the other side,
but now they and they are.
Now they're there and it wasjust like kept on cycling and We
eventually had to break apartand just, I think, get some
space from one another inprocessing and digesting what we
were going through.
And I think that was natural.
It was painful, but it was partof the process.
so that whole, the differentstages of grieving and how
(42:58):
unique that is to therelationship.
And if it's a mother or fatheror sibling, I think there was
room for me to really.
Own what I was going through andfor Piper and all that, but from
what I can tell in a lot ofinstances, siblings, this is why
(43:19):
I love what you're doing.
Siblings don't always get thesame amount of space and ideally
in every family system everyoneshould have room to really feel
what they feel and to beconsidered and what it might
what their experience might belike, not just mentally, but
emotively to feel that kind ofpresence support and support,
Dr. Dean (43:39):
Thank you for those words.
I think our society has thisunstated and maybe it's even
sometimes stated hierarchy ofwhose grief is worse or harder
or, and that's ludicrous, but Ithink it's implied.
And it sounds like you felt thatto some extent, but also there
was some equality in your familyunit at that time.
(43:59):
Mm hmm.
Eric Grace (44:00):
oh,
Dr. Dean (44:01):
Mm hmm.
Mm
Eric Grace (44:02):
When I made that move to Sedona, I was claiming
my own life.
And I said, I don't care whatother people think anymore, I'm
going to do what I need to dofor me.
and so that made space for myown experience in a way that I
hadn't up to that point.
And then when Kyle moved downand my mom moved down and like
we started having this new wayof living, there was more room
(44:23):
for Instead of the oldtraditional structure of the
family, where the parents orspecifically the father, like my
dad took up a lot of space inour family with his kind of
underground seething anger andstuff, and then the alcoholism
and how that impacts.
And like that, our familystructure changed after a
certain point.
And then he did participate inThe memorial and he came down
(44:46):
and visited us.
he really opened up during thattime in a new way.
And his second wife, Sabrina,she did as well.
so I think there was an openingand I guess I would just.
Encourage that to like I wassaying, like death is a doorway
like things can really open upunexpectedly because of the
power just like in birth.
(45:07):
Like when you're around a baby,you're like, wow.
Newborns are so powerful whatthey bring into the room, and
same thing with death and my momand my, My stepmom, Sabrina,
they both had memories of beingsexually abused within a couple
of weeks of Kyle's death.
So it opened up for both of themdeep seated repressed realities
(45:30):
that they were completely out oftouch with up until the cracking
that grief did for them.
It can be an opening in a goodway, and I think that was
positive, but it was really hardfor them to be with that, right?
they're, not only were theygrieving for Kyle, but then they
had all this other stuff thatcame along with that.
And just like I was saying, myown form of that was around
(45:52):
trust.
I had deeper seated issues thathad nothing to do with Kyle that
the grief process then broughtup to feel.
And I think that's not alwaystalked about, that grief is a
doorway.
And yes, some, sometimes it isabout the actual relationship,
But a lot of times it's justunprocessed stuff.
We haven't come to terms withyet in our lives.
(46:12):
And that can be an opportunityfor us to do so.
Dr. Dean (46:15):
Yes.
I wholeheartedly agree with thatand have experienced that
myself, so thank you for puttingwords to it.
before we wrap up, I'm wonderingif you have some favorite
memories that you want to shareabout you and Kyle.
Eric Grace (46:28):
the things that kind of twinkle down right now are
playing Legos when we're likeseven years old, 10 and seven,
building castles out of Legos,going to Valley Fair, which was
an amusement park in, Minnesota.
And he had a horrible singingvoice, horrible, just horrible
singing voice.
(46:49):
And they had one of thosestudios.
where you could sing the songyou loved to the backing track,
and he did it to Stairway toHeaven.
And then we listened to thecassette on the way home of him
singing to that, and it was sohorrid.
But there was something soprecious about that moment.
Like he just, he was, he couldreally let it out there.
(47:10):
Like he could just, Let thechips fall where they're at and
he just sang and it was sohorrible But it was he really
put himself into it, like thatwas a sweet moment
Dr. Dean (47:20):
Do you still have the cassette?
Eric Grace (47:21):
no, I don't it went somewhere.
It went somewhere.
Thank
Dr. Dean (47:24):
get rid of that.
Eric Grace (47:25):
Yes Yeah, so that was something Us going to a film
together like when we saw I'mpretty sure it was Good Will
Hunting and we were so deeplytouched by that film We got up
and we ran out of the theater Wewere just so giddy, and that,
(47:46):
that spirit of joy andplayfulness and creativity, it
just wove itself through in somany different instances, and he
was much more theatrical than I,but he invited that out in me.
Dr. Dean (47:58):
hmm.
Eric Grace (48:01):
the other thing I would say, this was something
that Brent and he and I didtogether, one of the last things
we did together as brothers, wasto go to a Pearl Jam concert.
And, just sharing in that loveof music together and, yeah,
having those times, I, Brent andI ended up going to a Pearl Jam
concert not long ago, a coupleof years ago, and it was sweet
(48:21):
to have that full circle.
It was like 20 years since I'dbeen to, to see them play since
then.
And, yeah, whenever I hear PearlJam, I think of my brother.
and the other thing I would sayis when we were living in Sedona
together, those nights where wewere roommates again.
And the lights were off and wewould just stay up for a couple
(48:42):
of hours talking, the lights areoff You're laying in bed, and
you're just chatting There'sthat there's this certain kind
of intimacy you can have with asibling with a brother for me
with brother just feeling sodeeply known and be able to talk
about whatever you want to talkabout, It can be goofy.
It can be mundane, it can bedeep it can be vulnerable the
(49:04):
whole range and just knowingthat there's someone that you
can share that with and thatthey can share that with you,
the preciousness of that.
Dr. Dean (49:14):
Absolutely.
Yeah, for sure.
Eric Grace (49:16):
yeah.
Dr. Dean (49:18):
What do you miss most about him?
I'm sure everything, but.
Eric Grace (49:21):
that's really, besides us hugging, and feeling
his little scruff.
Dr. Dean (49:28):
Mm hmm.
Mm
Eric Grace (49:29):
it's theatrical.
We were just kooky together.
I've got a couple of friendsthat I can be that way with, but
I got really serious after hedied, and, being able to have
someone to share in thatkookiness was so precious to me.
and just creating together andhaving someone that knew me so
well.
Dr. Dean (49:48):
hmm.
Eric Grace (49:49):
And if I was BSing myself that they could call me
out and say, come on, like justthat, that the way the way our
relationship was.
Was really dear to me, reallydear and felt like a once in a
lifetime kind of thing.
Dr. Dean (50:05):
thank you for all of that.
I know on your website, there'sso many other things that you
offer and that you've done tohelp you through this grief and
help other people as well.
Do you want to comment on any ofthat?
Eric Grace (50:17):
all of that really speaks to my deeper like mission
or soul purpose why I'm here.
And I think Kyle and myrelationship with him and how
that wove in through my life andhis death and that's all so very
much part of that like myprocess of evolving as a person
and growing and unearthing who Iam and what got hidden and What
(50:40):
felt like it was broken.
And, one of the things I reallydig about myself is I really
wanted to get to the core, thislife, so what makes me.
tick what really I'm made of,and so that I can then pay it
forward.
So I can bring what's in mybasket of gifts to others to
help them really blossom intheir experience.
(51:02):
and now I'm doing that now, andI just love it.
So That's just another dimensionof where the joy comes out
because seeing people on earththeir own soulfulness into their
lives and and that shows up inso many ways, you know the
relationship dynamics andparenting and or death that's
one component of it.
Dr. Dean (51:20):
Mm hmm.
Eric Grace (51:21):
and the Death Cafe, doing that being a watsu
practitioner for the time.
I was that I there was so manythings I was trained in and
explored that just brought akind of well roundedness to how
I can be with people now, tosupport them in their growth
(51:41):
that I just feel I feel reallygrateful and blessed how chaotic
and crazy my life has been tobring me to the point where like
anything someone brings to thetable.
I'm like, Oh, I've been there orI can relate with that or like
there's I can get with that, sothat's the gift of having that
much death and suffering andchaos and all those kinds of
(52:05):
things is I got a lot ofcompassion for others and
Dr. Dean (52:09):
hmm.
Eric Grace (52:09):
be dealing with.
Dr. Dean (52:11):
And I think that's very evident in our conversation
today.
And so I'm hopeful that ourlisteners will garner some of
that.
thank you so much for thisconversation, and I look forward
to staying in touch.
Eric Grace (52:22):
Yeah.
Thank you for what you're doingin bringing this whole
consideration out with siblingsand making more room for
siblings to reflect on theirrelationships.
And maybe in a way that maybethey didn't think they had the
room to before,
Dr. Dean (52:38):
Yeah, of course.
You're welcome.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for listening.
Our theme song was written byJoe Mylwood and Brian Dean, and
was performed by Joe Mylwood.
If you would like moreinformation on the Broken Pack,
go to our website, the brokenpack.com.
Be sure to sign up for ournewsletter, Wild Grief, to learn
about opportunities and receiveexclusive information and
(53:00):
grieving tips for subscribers.
Information on that, our socialmedia and on our guests can be
found in the show notes whereveryou get your podcasts.
Please like, follow, subscribe,and share.
Thanks again.
Hello and welcome to the Broken Pack, a podcast
focused on giving adultsurvivors of sibling loss, a
platform to share their storiesand to be heard.
Something that many sibling losssurvivors state that they never
have had.
Sibling Loss is Misunderstood™.
The Broken Pack exists to changethat and to support survivors.
(00:32):
I'm your host, Dr.
Angela Dean.
In today's episode I spoke withEric about losing his brother
Kyle in a tragic motor vehicleaccident.
This accident, while it happenedmany years ago, has had a
significant impact on him andhow he has viewed life, viewed
death and living, how he workswith other people, and his
(00:53):
purpose in living.
Take a listen.
Welcome to the show.
Would you like to introduceyourself?
Eric Grace (01:07):
Yeah.
My name is Eric Grace and I ama, Emotive Body, Ensoulment
practitioner, and, I also havemy own cleaning business.
I think we're going to talktoday about I'm, I don't know
what the word is.
It's not quite survivor, but, myolder brother passed away back
in 1998, so we're going to diveinto that, and I'm also the host
(01:28):
of the Wholly Human House onClubhouse, that's another thing
I love to do, in addition tobeing a musician and a writer
and all sorts of fun things.
Dr. Dean (01:37):
Fantastic.
What is the wholly, I'm sorry,wholly
Eric Grace (01:40):
Wholly human house.
Yeah, so that's been going onfor a couple years now and
basically it's a space forpeople to come together and i've
done all sorts of courses onthere on different spiritual
teachings and psychologicalinquiry.
It's a group where people candiscover more about themselves
and relationality it's open toanyone, and it's free, but it's
(02:01):
an atmosphere of curiosity and,discovery and also just taking
time to see what's going oninside of us and, to be able to
share that with others in a waythat's, supportive and,
sometimes fun and sometimes,making room for the pain that's
there if there's grief orwhatever it might be.
(02:21):
So it's one of those safe spacesfor that.
Dr. Dean (02:24):
Sounds fantastic.
And are you a licensedpractitioner?
The
Eric Grace (02:28):
Yeah, I was trained in EBE for short, years ago,
back in early 2000s, and then Itook a break from all of that,
for many years and then startedup again not that long ago, a
couple years ago.
I've also been a watsupractitioner, an ordained
priest.
I was trained as a, death cafefacilitator as well.
(02:49):
And, Trillium awakening mentorand, went to school for
psychology and music andsociology and, economics was the
first thing that I actuallystudied in.
So yeah,
Dr. Dean (03:02):
Sound like you're a bit of a renaissance man.
Eric Grace (03:05):
something like that.
You bet.
Lots of things I've beeninterested in over the years.
Dr. Dean (03:10):
Yeah.
thank you for the greatintroduction.
before we dive into the story oflosing your brother, what would
you want our listeners to knowabout Kyle?
Eric Grace (03:18):
The interesting thing with Kyle is, his spirit
totally lives on, so I stillhave contact with him from time
to time, which is intriguing initself.
Not everybody has that whensomeone passes.
and I'll dive into that more aswe get into the story, but, Kyle
is a theatrical being, and wasfrom the get go, a lot of
vitality.
A lot of humor, quite a dork,goofy, in that way, but could be
(03:42):
very loud and funny and playfuland creative.
yeah, fun, silly.
And, I just love him so much.
Just love him.
And he loves me and loved me.
Someone that I felt so close to,from the get go when I was born,
he was there, he wasn't so onboard with me being there.
(04:03):
He was kind of like, who's thiskid coming on the scene.
He acclimated over time and, wespent a lot of good years
playing and we would create,little plays.
He became a director and ascreenplay, writer.
And, I would do all the voicesof the little puppets that we
had and stuff.
We put it on for our family.
So We had this wholecollaboration and creativity
component to our relationship.
(04:24):
And, yeah, he was, quite, quitea mensch, just a good guy.
Good
Dr. Dean (04:29):
Yeah.
So I think I remember from yourform that he was three years
older than you?
Eric Grace (04:34):
Yeah.
Three and a half.
August 1st was his birthday.
I'm born in April.
He was born in 74.
I was born in 77, so three and ahalf.
Dr. Dean (04:44):
Yeah.
And you said he wasn't terriblyexcited to have a little brother
at first, but how was yourrelationship after that?
Eric Grace (04:51):
I think he, endured that I was there, in the
beginning, and then he warmed upto me.
And we had a lot of fun years inthose, Early years, a lot of
play went on, and then as he gotolder, my dad was a, a
functional alcoholic, so a lotof the stuff there with my dad,
I think he still had PTSD fromhis father, stuff that happens
(05:12):
in the war, and then peoplebring it home, I think that
existed in my family, and thenalcohol got woven into that, My
dad was sometimes so reallyscary to be around and my older
brother took on a lot of that inthe beginning And then as he got
older, he started to send it tome So it was like the pass down
of the generational trauma, youknow That's how it went through
(05:33):
and so when I was eight nine tenThere was a lot more of tension
that he didn't want me around.
Especially as he got in his teenyears.
We'd get into major fights likeParents would be gone, we'd be
in
Dr. Dean (05:46):
hmm.
Mm hmm.
Eric Grace (05:47):
and a couple of hours wrestling to the point
where we'd almost, You get aperson to headlock and just be
squeezing so hard and they startto lose the air into their
brain.
it'd be like that kind of thing,very intense.
and we learned about ourstrength and power, in those
kind of conflicts.
culturally, like we would watchthe WWF and football and things
(06:10):
like that.
So there was this whole thingaround masculinity and that's
what guys do.
But also our dad could be reallyrough with us.
So we were trying to play outwhat was being sent our way
towards each other.
And then when I got to be about12 or 13, I was big enough to
stop him, to actually say, no,he can't do this anymore.
Dr. Dean (06:32):
To your dad or to your
Eric Grace (06:33):
brother To actually both.
It happened around that sametime.
I had a big altercation with mydad where, I knocked him down
after he was attacking me and Iran out of the house, but I
knocked it down.
And after that, he neverattacked me again.
And my brother right around thattime.
We were fighting, and I won.
And, after that, just stopped.
Dr. Dean (06:52):
Mm hmm.
Eric Grace (06:54):
what that did for our relationship, though, in
later years, is we knew, at areally instinctual level, each
other.
body to body, dominate, Survivalthat stuff was really we had
worked through a lot of that.
And then as we got older, wejust became really close
friends.
And once he had moved out of thehouse and went to college, and
(07:16):
then I moved out.
so yeah, when you have someonethat They've seen all the sides
of you like, just the things youdon't show everybody else, or
the things that kind ofrelationship really evokes that
doesn't always come out withother relationships.
there was a different kind oftrust that he and I had that we
could show any part of ourselvesand, we weren't, we were still
(07:38):
loving each other, and we couldnot only have the playful
creative components.
but if we got in a conflict,we'd be really honest with each
other.
And, we could trust each other'sfeedback and there was no BS.
Dr. Dean (07:52):
Sounds very much like the sibling relationship where,
friends don't always see all ofour sides and our parents don't
either.
So I think what you're speakingto is something unique in the
sibling relationship from thatearly age on.
Of course, you can develop otherrelationships that are similar,
Eric Grace (08:09):
Yeah.
And with our age difference, Ithink.
Different siblings can havedifferent forms of relationships
based on the age and the kind ofparenting experience they have.
Like my younger brother, he'sseven years different than me
and he was 11 years differentfrom my older brother and he got
a very different experience withour parents.
Then Kyle and I did.
(08:30):
Kyle and I were able to shareenough of that same window of
time with our parents to havesympathy and empathy for what we
went through.
whereas my younger brother, hejust had a different, he had his
own challenges with my parentshaving a divorce and everything,
and it's just, but he had adifferent relationship,
especially with our father.
Our father was kinder with him.
so I think that's anotherdimension with siblings is even
(08:53):
though you can have the sameparents depending on sometimes
gender and sometimes dependingon your age gap, the birth
order, all of that.
I
Dr. Dean (09:03):
Attachment.
Eric Grace (09:04):
yeah, exactly.
Attachment styles and with Kylebeing first and then I was
second and then Brent was third.
I saw in the beginning yearswhat it was like to be the
youngest child.
And I really loved being thebaby of family with getting that
kind of attention.
And then when Brent was born, Igot lost in the middle.
So I got to feel what that'slike to be the middle child.
(09:25):
And then when Kyle died, then Iwas the oldest.
And so I could feel like, oh,there's different pressures and
things that come with being theoldest and different challenges.
birth order really plays a partfor siblings as far as their
identity and their challengeswith one another in ways that
may not understand what, how oneanother is experiencing the
family.
Dr. Dean (09:45):
Yeah, I would agree with that.
I do think it's important tostate that there's.
not a blanket birth order, likenot all the oldest and not all
the youngest are a certain way,but because of all of those
other factors that you mentionedand family dynamics and ages and
stages and all of those things.
but I'm glad that you were ableto see how that played out.
(10:08):
So Brent is, you said sevenyears younger than you.
Okay.
are there other things that youwant to share about your
relationship with Kyle asadults?
How did that change?
Eric Grace (10:18):
Yeah, well, it changed Once he went up to
college, I really wanted toleave the house and go up to the
college, too.
We had a neighbor friend, Dan,who was my brother Kyle's really
good friend for many years andthen they roomed roommates
together up in college up inDuluth And I so wanted to go be
a part of their world it seemedlike they had freedom, you know
(10:38):
from all the shit was going onthat was going on at home and
that last year they were also ayear apart so Dan stayed behind
one year for his senior year andthat year he and I became close
we were in a musical togetherand all of that.
So When he left to go to UMD aswell and they were both living
there it was like I still wantto be a part of that And then I
(10:59):
just felt like the odd wheel outI would go and visit every once
in a while and Dan was amusician i'd get into you know
wanting to watch his band playmusic and all that and go see
Kyle's plays that he was a partof and just seemed like it was
so exciting, I wanted to be apart of the cool thing.
but then, at a certain point, Irealized that's just not where
I'm at., and I focused on therest of my life, other things
(11:20):
that were going on my life.
And, Then for a couple of years,we just didn't have that much
contact.
It was mainly through, at thattime, it was just snail mail,
because there really wasn'tanything else.
He would send me a poem that hewrote, or we'd write about what
was going on.
I don't think he really knewwhat He wasn't tracking the kind
of challenges in our family atthe time with my mom and dad
(11:41):
separating and just this stuffthat was happening around that.
I ended up going to college at adifferent place and then I left
after the first year and wenttraveling all around the country
and I ended up landing inArizona and Sedona and, had just
a lot of synchronicity, a lot ofmagic, a lot of beautiful life
experiences there.
(12:03):
And I started telling him aboutit, and he came and visited me
one time and stayed where I wasstaying, and he was inspired to
come down there and eventuallymoved down there.
in 97, he moved down and welived in the same space, and
then we were like roommatesliving together.
not long after, my mom ended upmoving down, and, there was this
(12:25):
place that opened up for all ofus to stay.
and my girlfriend at the timeand her daughter, we all moved
in together and it was like afamily redo 2.
0 or something, and thatrelationship then for Kyle and I
was closest.
I've probably ever been withsomeone.
Because we were, in thebeginning stages, it was him and
I were sharing a really largeroom space.
(12:47):
And, same kind of creativecollaborations on things.
He was a movie critic at thetime, and a writer, and a
waiter, and he was doingmultiple jobs.
And we'd go see films together,and he was working on a book, so
I would edit kind of some of thestuff he was doing.
it was just a lot of fun.
And in the family, house space,Game night, like just, it was a
(13:09):
really good time of about 10months.
We also, started doing the EBEprocess that I'm trained in.
We all started doing thattogether, going through that as
clients.
So there was a lot of growingand a lot of discovery that was
happening, internally that wewere sharing with one another.
It was a precious time and thatlasted about 10 months and then.
(13:31):
There was a girl still back in,Minnesota that had been his
friend for many years and waspartnered to one of his friends.
And, they had been pen pals andall that since he had moved down
to Sedona.
but he went back to visit inMinnesota and this was after he
wrote his book, Standing on theEdge, which was all about his
relationship with Dan and mydad.
(13:51):
And he ended up connecting withboth of them and talking about
their relationships.
It was a very healingexperience, I think, for all of
them.
But during that visit, while hewas doing that, he met up with
this girl Piper and Scott, herpartner and his friend.
And, it, during that visit, itbecame really apparent that
Piper and Kyle really wanted tobe together.
They were really interested ineach other and Scott and Piper
(14:14):
had been together for a whileand they decided that they were
going to end.
It was no longer a good fit forthem.
And so things really changed forKyle.
He was like, I want to be withPiper.
And so once he got back fromthat three week trip, he was
like, I'm going to drive upthere and, pick up Piper.
And then we're going to move outto Seattle together.
That was the.
(14:35):
Kind of the shift.
Dr. Dean (14:37):
Mm,
Eric Grace (14:38):
I was sad about that, but it felt right.
It was a really good happening,for both of them.
I felt like they were a reallygood fit for each other.
and then it was on that trip ashe was driving up that he died
in a car accident in 98 inSandpoint, Idaho.
really beautiful part of, Idaho.
(14:58):
and unexpected.
he wasn't the greatest driverand he was pretty reckless at
times.
when he was in high school, hehad messed up my parents car
once or twice.
He and I went in on a cartogether.
We bought a car together and hetotaled that car.
So I didn't get to drive it.
and.
There was always a little bit ofrecklessness in him, and so I
(15:20):
think he was driving down theroad and was trying to get like
a CD or something that was onthe passenger floor and then
swerved and then overcorrectedand went over the median and
then there was a FedEx truckthat just crashed into his small
little car and just basicallyrolled over the thing and he was
crushed and died instantly.
(15:40):
Yeah, pretty nasty, gory.
And, the driver of the truck,his name was Brent Allen Jessup.
And that's the first two namesof my younger brother.
Brent Allen McDonough was hisbirth name.
And it was one of thoseinteresting synchronicities.
We ended up getting to knowBrent to this guy, Brent Jessup
(16:02):
afterwards is my wife, my momand Piper and I all drove, flew
up there and then spent timelooking through
Dr. Dean (16:10):
Mm,
Eric Grace (16:11):
all the things, because when Kyle was taking
this drive, he put everything heowned in his car.
So when the car got smashed.
Everything got scattered all
Dr. Dean (16:21):
I have a while,
Eric Grace (16:21):
I mean, it was, there was like, we went to the
crash site and there was likebroken CDs and bits of the
computer that he had.
And it was just smashed allover.
and, so we went there to bothget his remains and, get the
last bits of what was left ofhis own things, his personal
items.
And we found a couple of thingsthat were really valuable, like
(16:44):
the journal he had been usingwhile he was on this trip, which
was really sweet, like some ofthe poetry he had written in
there and just the differentstories of his experiences.
and, I think the other thingthat was important was when he
had died, I knew we weren'tgoing to be able to get there
for a while, so I asked the, thecoroner or the mortician or
(17:05):
whatever they were called, Isaid, Can you take some pictures
of the body?
Because I somehow knew that if Ididn't have some kind of
concrete evidence.
It would be like he's still onvacation.
He's still gone somewhere likeit wouldn't register.
And since I knew he was going tobe, cremated before we came, I
(17:25):
needed something around his bodyto be like the remains weren't
going to mean much to me.
They would just, it would justseem like it was ash.
So the picture they took, whichwas a really gory picture of his
body after the crash, but itreally was important for me to
register the reality of himbeing gone.
And, everyone else is like, whydo you want to do that?
It's so gross.
But it's it really made sense tome and helped me come to at
(17:49):
least some kind of closure thatdid happen.
He did die.
I wasn't there to see it, but itdid really happen.
And, that could at least startthe process for part of me
around the grief.
Dr. Dean (18:00):
Yeah.
I think that's an interestingthing of people that I've talked
to is some people want toabsolutely see the body to get
that, sense that the person isgone.
I know, and I've shared thisbefore, is that I took a photo
of my brother in the casket forthat reason.
I knew that I would forget, notforget, but it wouldn't seem
real.
I was not going to forget, butother people don't want to see
(18:22):
it.
So that's, that had to be hardto look at.
Eric Grace (18:26):
it was surreal, to see, his body was really
mangled.
So there's one level it's like.
Wow, I didn't know a body couldlook like that.
Dr. Dean (18:35):
Mm.
Eric Grace (18:37):
there's no one home.
Like it's just flesh.
There's no, there's nothingthere.
So that's that those two thingsmade it really surreal, but it
was enough familiar that I knewit was his body, but I'm just
glad that I asked for that, andwith both my parents have passed
to and being with both theirphysical bodies after they
(18:59):
passed really did something forme.
in both of those instances.
I was really grateful.
I don't know how it would havebeen to actually see his
physical body mangled like that.
That might have been a littletoo much.
But the picture was just right.
Yeah.
in helping me, they start toreconcile what had actually
occurred.
With him and in my life.
Dr. Dean (19:19):
Did you go back to it after you looked at it?
Eric Grace (19:22):
yeah, several times
Dr. Dean (19:23):
Mm-Hmm?
Eric Grace (19:24):
Yeah, and then with his ashes We ended up going to
Duluth and put him at some ofthe ashes in Lake Superior where
he loved to be and a coupleother locations in Sedona since
he was there, too you know therewas steps along the way of how
we were processing grief aroundthat
Dr. Dean (19:41):
Yeah.
Eric Grace (19:42):
Yeah, but one of the things that I haven't mentioned
kind of alluded to it at thebeginning here was, I was in
Sedona when he died and it wasin the morning.
I'm sitting on the riversidejust watching the river.
I was actually going throughsome grief around my father and
some of the relationshipdynamics.
So I was already in a grief kindof place.
(20:02):
My mom walks down and she tellsme, Eric, I just talked to the
sheriff up in Idaho and yourbrother's, Pat, your brother
died in a car accident.
And it sunk so deep inside ofme, I just started saying no,
and started yelling and wailing.
And the way the canyon is setup, where this creek is, the
(20:28):
canyon walls are pretty close.
So I could hear my wailing,echoing, reverberating off the
walls.
It was that loud.
And, I remember registering thatand then Kyle showed up in front
of me, his spirit as if, likewhat people say when Jesus was
resurrected and showed up orlike when people see ghosts,
(20:50):
like his form was completely infront of me uh, about 20 feet
out and he was smiling.
And he said, there's no need forsorrow, only for joy.
And it was so clear.
That I immediately stoppedwailing and I started laughing
because I felt our connection Ifelt the truth of what he was
(21:11):
saying and the only thing Icould do was just start laughing
And so everyone's around methis, I'm a family members my
mom and they're like looking atwhat the hell is going on with
you like but it was so visceral
Dr. Dean (21:24):
Mm-Hmm.
Eric Grace (21:25):
And I could not deny that he was right there and I
was seeing, I was seeing areality.
it wasn't the same physicalreality that other people were
seeing.
I was seeing that too.
so that started a very strangeprocess around grief and His
death because on the one levelhis physical body was smushed
(21:48):
and I was never gonna hug himagain I was never gonna spend
time with him and there's allthose nevers And I knew on some
level that something was goingto happen and we even got a a
hint about it, too When he hadcome down to visit For the first
time in Sedona, I was living ata guy's house, Len, who was a
(22:08):
psychic He worked at the postoffice, but he was a closet
psychic.
and so Kyle was saying, Hey,what do you think about me
becoming here?
And Len said, here's great, butdon't go up into the Northwest.
I get a really bad, like, do notgo there at least for a while.
And this was just a year laterthat year and a half later that
(22:29):
he went up there and then hedied up there.
So there's this littleForeshadowing that something was
going to happen there And thenwhen he left the house to go on
this driving route, that morningHe got up pretty early to go in
his car and I go and I hug himand I just start sobbing you
know, I just start sobbing wheni'm hugging and I just Something
(22:51):
so deeply in me felt like Iwasn't ever going to see him
again.
And I said, I don't need I don'teven know why I'm doing this.
I miss you.
I miss you already.
Like it was that I, it reallyregistered in me.
So things like that werehappening.
And then this moment where heshows up happens.
And then it was like
Dr. Dean (23:12):
Mm-Hmm.
Eric Grace (23:13):
the process of dealing with.
He's not in my life anymore asmy closest friend, really felt
like a soulmate that kind ofclose But yet he was connected
to me still I was still having arelationship with him on another
level and he would show up indreams It was there was people,
(23:36):
Sedona was very I don't know ifyou're anything about Sedona was
a very like Cornucopia ofspirituality and psychological
modalities and, palm readers andvortexes and all that.
So I knew I had so many friendsthat were, they were able to
check in and could hear him tooand report what he was saying.
(23:56):
And that was aligned with thethings that I would be getting
in, in the dreams and all that.
So I had a lot of, validationfor what I was experiencing.
At the same time, it was alsovery real that.
Something ripped in me when hedied, my trust in life and with
people started to fray.
Dr. Dean (24:19):
Mhm.
Eric Grace (24:21):
it also, what had already started with that
process, the EBE process thatall of us has started, something
was starting to open anywaysthere and this just ripped it in
an unexpected side way.
And, I think there was a part ofme that gave up on, on life and
people after that.
Dr. Dean (24:40):
Mhm.
Eric Grace (24:41):
Just feel like I'm never gonna have that kind of
relationship again with someonewhere I trust that deeply.
it took me several years to cometo terms with that reality that,
that rip that was inside of me.
Dr. Dean (24:56):
Mhm.
Eric Grace (24:57):
The loss and, the only person I could talk about
that with was Piper, who inKyle's leaving, she came and
visited us for a good month, wereally started to develop a new,
it's like I gained a sister,lost a brother, gained a sister
is what it felt like, and sothere was some ways I had
(25:17):
someone to commiserate with whatthe experience was like, but
the, that rip, It just felt likethat was never going to go away
and the grieving process wasreally wonky, and I think that
can be for many people, somepeople, like I remember my mom,
as a parent, losing a child,they've got their own process
(25:40):
and things that come with that.
Like for her, like holidays andstuff were really important, big
for bringing up feelings to sortout.
And for me, it would be like amovie I would watch.
I remember there was this onewith Tom Hanks.
It was all about 9 11.
And him losing someone and man,there was just a part in that
film where I just crackedwatching.
(26:01):
I just sobbed for a good twohours straight, so there'd be
like moments where Some kind oftrigger would bring it up and I
would just pull like everythingwould just come all out.
That was, still just buildinglike a dam, like the water
surrounding rather than acertain point.
And that happened for, manyyears, it was more palpable the
(26:25):
first year, like seeing theFedEx trucks or like
butterflies, like those things.
There were certain symbols thatgot connected to him around that
time that we all felt, or someof us felt.
And then.
Other things over time, GoodwillHunting, like there was there's
films and music.
I think we're a thing he and Ireally connected on.
(26:47):
So stuff like that would justreally stir the ache, the long
longing for that connection thatbrotherly connection.
and also just The loss and thenthat loss of trust with people,
that I really wrestled with fora long time, which I think is on
(27:10):
a soul level, some things I hadto deal with anyways, and his
death has helped me process hashelped bring that forward to
actually work through that,maybe I wouldn't have worked
through it in the same way withwithout him passing.
yeah, I guess I just want toemphasize how complicated that
was.
Thanks.
(27:30):
Knowing he was fine and feelingour connection still exists and
we'll probably have otherlifetimes together.
And when I leave this plan, heand I, when I leave this plane
of existence, we're going to behaving conversations similar to
what I experienced in our, inthe dream space.
so there's one way everything'sfine, but there is a very
(27:51):
specific dimension of where thatloss and grief existed and still
in moments, I was probably twoweeks ago.
I was being with a part of methat part still missed my
brother and I could feel mybrother come in the room
Dr. Dean (28:07):
hmm.
Eric Grace (28:08):
he was holding my left hand.
I could feel a presence aroundmy hand and him right there and
I just again another justletting go like feeling the sobs
and it felt so good to just feelthe love and the grief and let
it all be there.
Dr. Dean (28:24):
Yeah.
Thank you for sharing thatbecause I think for a lot of our
listeners and a lot of even ourguests, have lost their siblings
in recent years.
There's definitely a few thatit's been decades, but, I think
what you're highlighting is,grief lasts forever, and it
sounds like it's just aspalpable to you in moments now
(28:45):
than it was in 1998.
Eric Grace (28:48):
Yeah, the poignancy of it, say it's like the
waveform is in the beginning.
There's more of those punctuatedmoments of poignancy, and then
there's greater spans in betweenthe poignant moments now.
So it might be a year or two andthen boom, wow, there it is
again, and I've grown andmatured as a person and done a
(29:10):
lot of healing around that lossof trust and I'm more able to
open up with people now.
So like some of those dimensionsare not as poignant.
and there's when the weepingcomes, it feels more beautiful.
there's this, The beauty of thelove and the connection.
And, I can really, savor it, Iguess is the way to say, whereas
(29:34):
in the past it was like, therewas more like pleading or
wrestling with, or there's anacceptance now, real deep
acceptance.
But I totally welcome thepoignant moments when they crack
through and it's there and Ijust feel the love and the
beauty and the goodness of ourconnection.
Dr. Dean (29:54):
Sounds like that joy that he encouraged you to have
in the beginning is somethingthat you've been able to feel in
your, even with your sorrow.
Eric Grace (30:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Good point.
Dr. Dean (30:04):
hmm.
Mm
Eric Grace (30:06):
I had a lot of years after that, where I was in a lot
of suffering and struggle.
And now in a point in my lifewhere there's so much more joy.
So I think that phrase of howjoy is usually unprocessed love,
like that there's so much lovein the grief.
I think there's a lot of truthto that.
And if we open up more and moreto the love that we are, that
(30:27):
we're made of, that changes ourrelationship to grief and to
those that we lose.
Yeah,
Dr. Dean (30:35):
That's beautifully stated.
Thank you.
So I'm curious, about the deathcafe and how you ended up
facilitating that, where you arewith it, what that was like for
you,
Eric Grace (30:48):
Yeah.
so the death cafe is thisinternational organization.
Lots of pilots.
So different groups are going tobe different experiences for
sure.
But the one in Ashland, someyears ago, I learned of it.
It was a quarterly meeting thatwas held at a, it was a, at a
synagogue, actually.
And the first time I went, theyhad six or seven facilitators
(31:10):
there.
and it's open to a donation, butit can be free as well.
And the amount of people thatshowed up beyond the
facilitators was, I think it waslike 50 to 70 people, something
like that.
And then you just broke up intogroups of eight to 10 in
separate spaces.
And it was for two hours,basically, they would open up
(31:30):
the whole group together and oneperson would lead with saying,
sharing, like a poem orsomething in relationship to
grief, death, dying, living, andthen everyone would go into
their groups and we'd have thisbasic outline that you could use
as a reference, but you didn'thave to use it as far as
questions you could explorearound death and dying, and
(31:53):
grief and life where Thefacilitators were simply they
were there as participants aswell, so they could share their
own experience and they werebasically there just to make
sure no one hugs all the spaceor no one is cutting someone
else off or, those kind ofthings, right?
So It was just a space wherepeople could come together and
(32:15):
talk about these topics, whichtend to be taboo in our culture,
like most people don't talkabout it.
It seems too depressing ormorose or whatever, but this was
a space where in the sharing andit was really wide open.
You could talk about preparingfor your death.
So many elderly people would bethere talking about, I've lost
many friends.
I can see this is coming for me,and their thoughts, feelings
(32:38):
around that, or people that hadquestions like, Hey, what do I
do to prepare?
do I need to do an advanceddirective?
so practically kind of stuff, orHey, I just lost my mom and I am
just racked with grief, or Ijust lost my dad and I feel
relief.
What do I do with that?
Like it was the whole range or Idon't know anything about death.
(33:00):
I haven't lost anybody.
And I just want to hear otherpeople talk about death.
so it was, anything was welcomeand I love that.
death is something we all shareat some point, we're going to
experience it with someone inour lives passing most likely
and our own death is in thefuture.
So it's a common denominator,which we could all connect on
(33:22):
and find a dignity and Arealness around experience or
lack of experience and inquiryand curiosity around that topic.
So it was a great environmentand I went to several after that
and at a certain point I thinkthey asked me or I talked to one
of the people they're allwonderful people the
facilitators I said, what do youknow?
(33:44):
How do you become one of theseor i'm interested and they
invited me on and I ended updoing it for several years And
every time it's like a group ofpeople, strangers you'd never
met, and you start talking aboutdeath.
And it's like the stories thatcome out, the contemplations
about what do you want to, whatdo I want to do with my body
(34:06):
after it's, after I've died?
Some people want to just, it wasjust one guy that was like, I've
got this huge plot of land outin Grants Pass, and I just want
to put my body out and I wantthe birds to peck at it.
and I've talked to the city andby getting permits to make sure
that's okay, like all thesepeople have their different
preferences of what they wantwith their body, green burial.
(34:27):
I want to casket, the wholerange.
So those kind of conversationswould be had.
people having experiences likesome, there's a few that had
experiences like I did with mybrother, interacting with me
afterwards.
yeah.
It was just a rich space forconnection and conversation and
as a facilitator and as aparticipant and I did that for
(34:50):
many years I also inspired usreaching out to the university
To host them there so youngerpeople could have an opportunity
also to do that So we did thatthen we started working with the
nursing program that was a partof the university to help them
because they were you know beingworking with hospice and all
these different individuals thatare preparing so a lot of good
(35:11):
came out of that and Then COVIDstarted and we couldn't host in
person meetings anymore.
So then I felt like that was mytime to transition out, of doing
that, but it was such a richexperience.
And it really
Dr. Dean (35:23):
hmm.
Eric Grace (35:23):
me be that much more at point with my own
relationship with death and mybrother Kyle.
and I mean, I've lost a lot ofpeople on all my grandparents.
My aunt, godmother, my mom, mydad, my brother, a lot of
people.
I don't really have any familyfor the most part left besides
my younger brother and I, and myson.
Dr. Dean (35:44):
Yeah.
Eric Grace (35:45):
So that was a space where I could keep on reflecting
on where am I at
Dr. Dean (35:50):
Mm
Eric Grace (35:51):
relationships and the people that have passed.
And is there anything elsethat's called for here in
honoring them or honoringrelationship or feeling in a way
that I haven't felt yet?
Welcoming that, which causeevery death is unique.
when my mom died, I had a panicattack and I went into rage.
(36:14):
I felt rage and panic.
Because of our relationship withmy dad, when I was by his body,
I felt closer to my father whenhe was dead than when he was
ever alive.
And I felt so much peace andlove.
And so it's like each death isunique enough to itself, just
like the relationships andgiving oneself the permission to
(36:34):
really feel what you feel inrelationship to that person.
I find that's the most helpfulin supporting people to be real
with the experience versus anyshoulds that you might think.
You're trying to hold on toaround it, right?
Dr. Dean (36:50):
Right, shoulds are, yeah, they're problematic for
lots of reasons, but easy tofall into.
so you mentioned just nowchanges in the relationship, and
I think earlier you said evenseeing yourself as the oldest
brother now, like how is yourrelationship with Brent since
Kyle passed, right?
Eric Grace (37:09):
it's gone through a lot of stages cause that was a
98, 24 on this now it's beenpast the 20, 25 year mark.
he got into drugs and alcohol,when this all happened when he
was a teenager.
And where we were in, in Sedona,he got in with the wrong crowd.
He had a tough several yearsthere.
(37:32):
And then I fell into the role oftrying to take care of him.
and, having some form ofidentity tied into that as well.
And we need, we both needed tobreak from that dynamic.
I think that was overbearing forhim, for me towards him.
And for me, it felt like aburden at times of, I don't know
(37:52):
what to do.
Like with, I don't know how tohelp him.
When he finally found his waythrough all of that and got some
good support we started toreconnect.
And it also was like, we eachhad our own relationship with,
with Kyle, and there was just noway Either of us could be that
(38:13):
for the other.
So there was a little bit ofthat had to sort out, I think.
and over the last, I'd sayprobably eight years, something
like that, eight, 10 years,something like that.
We have found our own uniquerelationship post Kyle's death.
which is beautiful.
I think it's found its ownrhythm now.
And we've had a few visits, likehe's on the East coast now, with
(38:34):
his partner, Crystal, and we hada couple of nice visits back and
forth and, we connect a littlebit about music, a little bit
about football.
Those are the things that weare, our connection is.
There's, we don't spend lots oftime together, but I love him
and he loves me and we enjoyeach other when we're around
each other.
I think that's evolved in a goodway.
It's matured.
(38:56):
and we can talk about, our mom,our dad, and Kyle all being gone
and those relationships.
And I'm really curious about hisfeelings about them because
they're very different thanmine.
Dr. Dean (39:06):
Mhm.
He was a teenager when Kyledied.
Eric Grace (39:10):
yeah.
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (39:13):
Yeah, so I'm guessing that would be a different
experience, especially with theage difference and like you
said, the differentrelationships with each other.
Eric Grace (39:21):
Yeah.
Dr. Dean (39:23):
Yeah.
are there other things that youwish people knew about losing a
sibling specifically?
Or wish that you had known?
Eric Grace (39:32):
some of the things that come to say about that was
going back to the shoulds, towhat was really beautiful around
that time.
I was in a very open, magicalperiod of my life where there
was a lot of freedom, a lot ofdiscovery.
And when his death happened,where I was living and how we
(39:52):
were living, we were very opento reflect, how do we want to be
with this?
Dr. Dean (40:00):
Mm hmm.
Eric Grace (40:00):
there's, depending on where you live in the world
and the communities you're apart of, and it's this is what
we do when someone dies.
And we were not like that.
And there was so much room toexperiment and feel into that
with many different people'sperspectives.
I really like how that happenedbecause I think sometimes we're
so conditioned about a certainthing that's just what we do,
(40:24):
and it's not actually what wouldnourish us.
Dr. Dean (40:27):
Right.
Eric Grace (40:28):
And so with all of those deaths in my life, they've
been very unique as far as theresponse and how I've responded
and how I participated in thepost death processes with
Kyle's.
There was a lot of people thatparticipated and.
When we went to, Minnesota tohave the memorial, our pastor
(40:52):
was so, welcoming because ourwhole family had spent so many
years there, even though wehadn't been there for many
years, he was just open door.
What do you want to do?
I will help facilitate whateveryou want to do.
Dr. Dean (41:05):
Mm hmm.
Eric Grace (41:07):
we call, we did a Native American thing of calling
in the four directions in aLutheran church while I sang
John Lennon's, Imagine in achurch, which says, even in the
tagline in there, in one of thelyrics is imagine if there's no,
religion.
it was, There was so much spacefor us to just do what we wanted
to do, and we made a beautiful,video that we played, and I sang
(41:32):
a song, and then, or Dan sang asong, and it was, we made this
beautiful mural of all picturesand artwork and his writing,
poetries and stuff, it wasgorgeous what we did, and I
think giving oneself the freedomto be in the unknown and listen
to what your own source ofinspiration.
(41:53):
Inklings are around it thatmaybe hadn't even considered
before.
Death can be a, an opening, areal opening to new life.
new experiences, new ways ofrelating to yourself and others.
And, that, that time was reallyprecious.
Now, on the other side, I thinkit's important to say too, since
(42:14):
all of us had gotten so closeramidst all that, at a certain
point, the grieving process,after like months, 2, 3, 4 being
around all the same people andeverybody's grieving.
It got to be too much.
It was like, oh, I just, I wentdown and I, I, I was in the
(42:35):
thick of it and I felt that I'm,and now I'm on the other side,
but now they and they are.
Now they're there and it wasjust like kept on cycling and We
eventually had to break apartand just, I think, get some
space from one another inprocessing and digesting what we
were going through.
And I think that was natural.
It was painful, but it was partof the process.
so that whole, the differentstages of grieving and how
(42:58):
unique that is to therelationship.
And if it's a mother or fatheror sibling, I think there was
room for me to really.
Own what I was going through andfor Piper and all that, but from
what I can tell in a lot ofinstances, siblings, this is why
(43:19):
I love what you're doing.
Siblings don't always get thesame amount of space and ideally
in every family system everyoneshould have room to really feel
what they feel and to beconsidered and what it might
what their experience might belike, not just mentally, but
emotively to feel that kind ofpresence support and support,
Dr. Dean (43:39):
Thank you for those words.
I think our society has thisunstated and maybe it's even
sometimes stated hierarchy ofwhose grief is worse or harder
or, and that's ludicrous, but Ithink it's implied.
And it sounds like you felt thatto some extent, but also there
was some equality in your familyunit at that time.
(43:59):
Mm hmm.
Eric Grace (44:00):
oh,
Dr. Dean (44:01):
Mm hmm.
Mm
Eric Grace (44:02):
When I made that move to Sedona, I was claiming
my own life.
And I said, I don't care whatother people think anymore, I'm
going to do what I need to dofor me.
and so that made space for myown experience in a way that I
hadn't up to that point.
And then when Kyle moved downand my mom moved down and like
we started having this new wayof living, there was more room
(44:23):
for Instead of the oldtraditional structure of the
family, where the parents orspecifically the father, like my
dad took up a lot of space inour family with his kind of
underground seething anger andstuff, and then the alcoholism
and how that impacts.
And like that, our familystructure changed after a
certain point.
And then he did participate inThe memorial and he came down
(44:46):
and visited us.
he really opened up during thattime in a new way.
And his second wife, Sabrina,she did as well.
so I think there was an openingand I guess I would just.
Encourage that to like I wassaying, like death is a doorway
like things can really open upunexpectedly because of the
power just like in birth.
(45:07):
Like when you're around a baby,you're like, wow.
Newborns are so powerful whatthey bring into the room, and
same thing with death and my momand my, My stepmom, Sabrina,
they both had memories of beingsexually abused within a couple
of weeks of Kyle's death.
So it opened up for both of themdeep seated repressed realities
(45:30):
that they were completely out oftouch with up until the cracking
that grief did for them.
It can be an opening in a goodway, and I think that was
positive, but it was really hardfor them to be with that, right?
they're, not only were theygrieving for Kyle, but then they
had all this other stuff thatcame along with that.
And just like I was saying, myown form of that was around
(45:52):
trust.
I had deeper seated issues thathad nothing to do with Kyle that
the grief process then broughtup to feel.
And I think that's not alwaystalked about, that grief is a
doorway.
And yes, some, sometimes it isabout the actual relationship,
But a lot of times it's justunprocessed stuff.
We haven't come to terms withyet in our lives.
(46:12):
And that can be an opportunityfor us to do so.
Dr. Dean (46:15):
Yes.
I wholeheartedly agree with thatand have experienced that
myself, so thank you for puttingwords to it.
before we wrap up, I'm wonderingif you have some favorite
memories that you want to shareabout you and Kyle.
Eric Grace (46:28):
the things that kind of twinkle down right now are
playing Legos when we're likeseven years old, 10 and seven,
building castles out of Legos,going to Valley Fair, which was
an amusement park in, Minnesota.
And he had a horrible singingvoice, horrible, just horrible
singing voice.
(46:49):
And they had one of thosestudios.
where you could sing the songyou loved to the backing track,
and he did it to Stairway toHeaven.
And then we listened to thecassette on the way home of him
singing to that, and it was sohorrid.
But there was something soprecious about that moment.
Like he just, he was, he couldreally let it out there.
(47:10):
Like he could just, Let thechips fall where they're at and
he just sang and it was sohorrible But it was he really
put himself into it, like thatwas a sweet moment
Dr. Dean (47:20):
Do you still have the cassette?
Eric Grace (47:21):
no, I don't it went somewhere.
It went somewhere.
Thank
Dr. Dean (47:24):
get rid of that.
Eric Grace (47:25):
Yes Yeah, so that was something Us going to a film
together like when we saw I'mpretty sure it was Good Will
Hunting and we were so deeplytouched by that film We got up
and we ran out of the theater Wewere just so giddy, and that,
(47:46):
that spirit of joy andplayfulness and creativity, it
just wove itself through in somany different instances, and he
was much more theatrical than I,but he invited that out in me.
Dr. Dean (47:58):
hmm.
Eric Grace (48:01):
the other thing I would say, this was something
that Brent and he and I didtogether, one of the last things
we did together as brothers, wasto go to a Pearl Jam concert.
And, just sharing in that loveof music together and, yeah,
having those times, I, Brent andI ended up going to a Pearl Jam
concert not long ago, a coupleof years ago, and it was sweet
(48:21):
to have that full circle.
It was like 20 years since I'dbeen to, to see them play since
then.
And, yeah, whenever I hear PearlJam, I think of my brother.
and the other thing I would sayis when we were living in Sedona
together, those nights where wewere roommates again.
And the lights were off and wewould just stay up for a couple
(48:42):
of hours talking, the lights areoff You're laying in bed, and
you're just chatting There'sthat there's this certain kind
of intimacy you can have with asibling with a brother for me
with brother just feeling sodeeply known and be able to talk
about whatever you want to talkabout, It can be goofy.
It can be mundane, it can bedeep it can be vulnerable the
(49:04):
whole range and just knowingthat there's someone that you
can share that with and thatthey can share that with you,
the preciousness of that.
Dr. Dean (49:14):
Absolutely.
Yeah, for sure.
Eric Grace (49:16):
yeah.
Dr. Dean (49:18):
What do you miss most about him?
I'm sure everything, but.
Eric Grace (49:21):
that's really, besides us hugging, and feeling
his little scruff.
Dr. Dean (49:28):
Mm hmm.
Mm
Eric Grace (49:29):
it's theatrical.
We were just kooky together.
I've got a couple of friendsthat I can be that way with, but
I got really serious after hedied, and, being able to have
someone to share in thatkookiness was so precious to me.
and just creating together andhaving someone that knew me so
well.
Dr. Dean (49:48):
hmm.
Eric Grace (49:49):
And if I was BSing myself that they could call me
out and say, come on, like justthat, that the way the way our
relationship was.
Was really dear to me, reallydear and felt like a once in a
lifetime kind of thing.
Dr. Dean (50:05):
thank you for all of that.
I know on your website, there'sso many other things that you
offer and that you've done tohelp you through this grief and
help other people as well.
Do you want to comment on any ofthat?
Eric Grace (50:17):
all of that really speaks to my deeper like mission
or soul purpose why I'm here.
And I think Kyle and myrelationship with him and how
that wove in through my life andhis death and that's all so very
much part of that like myprocess of evolving as a person
and growing and unearthing who Iam and what got hidden and What
(50:40):
felt like it was broken.
And, one of the things I reallydig about myself is I really
wanted to get to the core, thislife, so what makes me.
tick what really I'm made of,and so that I can then pay it
forward.
So I can bring what's in mybasket of gifts to others to
help them really blossom intheir experience.
(51:02):
and now I'm doing that now, andI just love it.
So That's just another dimensionof where the joy comes out
because seeing people on earththeir own soulfulness into their
lives and and that shows up inso many ways, you know the
relationship dynamics andparenting and or death that's
one component of it.
Dr. Dean (51:20):
Mm hmm.
Eric Grace (51:21):
and the Death Cafe, doing that being a watsu
practitioner for the time.
I was that I there was so manythings I was trained in and
explored that just brought akind of well roundedness to how
I can be with people now, tosupport them in their growth
(51:41):
that I just feel I feel reallygrateful and blessed how chaotic
and crazy my life has been tobring me to the point where like
anything someone brings to thetable.
I'm like, Oh, I've been there orI can relate with that or like
there's I can get with that, sothat's the gift of having that
much death and suffering andchaos and all those kinds of
(52:05):
things is I got a lot ofcompassion for others and
Dr. Dean (52:09):
hmm.
Eric Grace (52:09):
be dealing with.
Dr. Dean (52:11):
And I think that's very evident in our conversation
today.
And so I'm hopeful that ourlisteners will garner some of
that.
thank you so much for thisconversation, and I look forward
to staying in touch.
Eric Grace (52:22):
Yeah.
Thank you for what you're doingin bringing this whole
consideration out with siblingsand making more room for
siblings to reflect on theirrelationships.
And maybe in a way that maybethey didn't think they had the
room to before,
Dr. Dean (52:38):
Yeah, of course.
You're welcome.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for listening.
Our theme song was written byJoe Mylwood and Brian Dean, and
was performed by Joe Mylwood.
If you would like moreinformation on the Broken Pack,
go to our website, the brokenpack.com.
Be sure to sign up for ournewsletter, Wild Grief, to learn
about opportunities and receiveexclusive information and
(53:00):
grieving tips for subscribers.
Information on that, our socialmedia and on our guests can be
found in the show notes whereveryou get your podcasts.
Please like, follow, subscribe,and share.
Thanks again.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.