January 15, 2025 • 43 mins
This episode dives into the transformative power of tiny changes, elaborating on the Tiny Habits method developed by Dr. BJ Fogg and his new creative project, Habit Songs for Kids. Listeners gain insight into how simple behavior modifications, music, and emotional understanding can foster lasting change and kindness in children and adults alike in a deep dive discussion with BJ Fogg, Ph.D. and Stephanie Weldy, M.Ed.
About our guests:
BJ Fogg, PhD, founded the Behavior Design Lab at Stanford University. In addition to his research, Fogg teaches industry innovators how human behavior really works. He created the Tiny Habits Academy to help people around the world. He lives in Northern California and Maui.
Stephanie Weldy, M.Ed., is an expert at the intersection of Behavior Design and employee well-being. She works with BJ Fogg, PhD, to teach industry innovators how to use Behavior Design in the products and services they are building to help people be healthier and happier.
Resources:
Listen to the songs: Songs -- Good Habits for Kids
Watch the videos: https://www.youtube.com/habitsongsforkids
Links to musical:
Act 1: https://vimeo.com/bjfogg/act1
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
BJ Fogg, Ph.D. (00:00):
It used to be keep yourself motivated.
How do you keep yourselfmotivated?
And I rejected that.
I said, no, willpower andmotivation doesn't work in the
long term.
What does is to make sure it'sreally simple and easy so you
can do it every day and beconsistent.
Lacy Wolff (00:13):
Hi everyone and welcome to the Buena Vida
podcast.
I'm your host, Lacy Wolff.
I'm so excited to be kickingoff 2025 with an episode all
about behavior change, which isone of my favorite topics, with
one of the world's leadingexperts on this topic.
You may have noticed a bigchange, and that is the name of
our podcast.
You're still going to be ableto find all of the ERS Walk Talk
(00:35):
podcast episodes in the BuenaVida library, but, moving
forward, the podcast will befound under the name Buena Vida
Podcast, which reflects ourmission of helping our listeners
live a good life.
I could not be more thrilledabout today's guests, dr BJ Fogg
and Stephanie Weldy.
Bj is the founder of theBehavior Design Lab at Stanford
(00:56):
University and he is aworld-renowned expert in habit
formation.
His groundbreaking New YorkTimes bestselling book, tiny
Habits how Small Changes thatChange Everything, has inspired
millions, and his insights havealso made a lasting impact on my
life as well.
Stephanie Weldy has workedclosely with BJ for many years
and she's also an expert inbehavior design and well-being.
(01:19):
She's a certified Tiny Habitscoach and a certified Well
Coaches coach, and she's also afull-time working mom.
Together, bj and Stephanie andthe Tiny Habits team have
recently released their newproject Habit Songs for Kids.
These are fun, science-backedsongs that help kids and parents
alike build better habits,reduce stress and foster growth
(01:41):
at home.
Today, we're going to talk abouttheir project, and I'll be also
sharing some song clips alongthe way.
So, even if you're not a parentor a grandparent or a teacher,
I know you're going to take awaysome great insights from this
conversation, because all ofthese songs are rooted in the
principles of the tiny habitsmethod and are designed to help
anyone learn new behaviors in aneasy and joyful way.
(02:03):
So thanks so much for tuning in.
I'm looking forward to sharingthis conversation and I hope it
helps you get your 2025 startedoff in a really positive way.
Without further ado, here's myconversation with BJ and
Stephanie.
Thank you so much for joining meon the Buena Vida podcast.
I'm so excited to be with youtoday.
(02:24):
Much for joining me on theBuena Vida podcast.
I'm so excited to be with youtoday.
I am looking forward to reallyhearing about the innovative new
work that you're doing.
Dr Fogg, I think a lot ofpeople in my population know a
lot about your work, but forthose who don't, I was thinking
before we got started it wouldbe helpful maybe if you just
give a brief overview of thebehavior model, so that people
(02:46):
kind of know what we're talkingabout when we get into the songs
.
BJ Fogg, Ph.D. (02:48):
Great.
A little bit of context.
So I'm a behavior change guy.
I'm currently situated at theStanford School of Medicine.
They brought me there fromother part of Stanford to be the
applied practical behaviorchange guy and, yes, I've done
academic work in that area.
But I think even more importantis I've coached over 60,000
(03:09):
people personally, personally tocreate habits.
That started in 2011.
I did week after week afterweek for eight years.
So all that hands-on experiencegives you a real sense of what
works and what doesn't.
The method that I developed iscalled Tiny Habits, the book
Atomic Habits, which many peopleJames Clare took my course in
(03:32):
2013, and that got himinterested in habits.
You'll see my work in AtomicHabits, but I also published a
book called Tiny Habits.
The Tiny Habits method came tome because I'd created this
model called the Fog BehaviorModel and I won't go into super
details on that because I'd mapit out and there's visuals to
(03:55):
see.
But it is a model that says abehavior happens and habit is a
type of behavior.
When there's motivation to dothat behavior or habit, when
there's motivation to do thatbehavior or habit, when there's
ability to do that behavior orhabit and there's a prompt,
there's something that says doit now, and the implications of
the model.
There's a curved line on themodel and people can.
(04:16):
If you want to geek out, go tobehaviormodelorg.
The easier the behavior, themore likely that people are to
do it.
Okay, so that was one of theinsights.
There are others, such, themore motivated you are, the more
likely.
But it was me looking at my ownmodel in about 2009, 2010, and
(04:37):
saying, okay, here's what mymodel shows If the behavior or
habit is super, super easy to do, then you can do it, even if
your motivation is not very high.
So, with that insight, Istarted hacking my own behavior,
creating these habits that weresuper small, but I could be
very consistent and reliable.
(04:58):
At the time, this was acompletely maybe not completely,
but nobody was talking aboutmaking these very small, tiny
changes.
Now the landscape has changed.
You see it in wellness programs, you see it in James Clear of
Works, you see it elsewhere, butthat was the path that I went
down, even though people thoughtit was foolish at the time.
(05:19):
Now it's.
People just assume it's alwaysbeen that way.
It hasn't.
It used to be keep yourselfmotivated.
How do you keep yourselfmotivated?
And I rejected that I said nowillpower motivation doesn't
work in the long term.
What does is to make sure it'sreally simple and easy so you
can do it every day and beconsistent.
So fast forward, coachedthousands of people, trained
(05:41):
people to be coaches, and westill do that.
We have a really great trainingprogram so people can be
effective at helping otherchange.
And then there was a point CalStephanie it was probably three
years ago.
Stephanie works very close withme on pretty much everything.
Well, I just felt like kidsaren't going to read the Tiny
Habits book and it would be sogreat for kids to understand the
(06:06):
concepts of how to change andhow to change effectively and
well.
So I started pursuing the pathof creating songs for kids and I
found some songwriters tocollaborate which were fabulous,
found some studio people thatwere incredible, and so really
my contribution on the songs ison the content and making sure
(06:28):
the content's accurate and someinput on other aspects.
But I was working with awesomepros that are very, very good at
the music and the productionand the talent part of it.
And now we have 14 songs in thecollection that we call Habit
Songs for Kids and I'm reallyhappy with the collection
(06:48):
because it conveys some of thekey concepts that I think could
be really helpful for kids andfamilies to understand to make
their lives better, to behealthier and happier.
Lacy Wolff (07:04):
Yeah, I listened to all the songs on my last road
trip and I think there's a lotof gems in there for all of us,
for families, for anybody really.
Stephanie, tell me a little bitabout how you're using the
music and the songs.
I know that you also have twochildren and I don't know if you
can talk just a little bitabout your experience with
working with BJ and how you'reusing the songs in your own life
(07:27):
?
Stephanie Weldy M.Ed. (07:27):
Yeah.
So for context, bj splits histime between Stanford and
industry and I help on primarilythe industry side of things.
We train innovators who arebuilding a product or service in
this systematic approach.
We call it the broad umbrella,fog behavior design and the tiny
habits method and the fogbehavior model.
Some of these things sit underthat umbrella.
(07:49):
Now for my day-to-day life.
I'm practicing what I teach inraising two small kids.
I have kids age four and sixand my alarm goes off at 6, 15
and my feet hit the floor and Ido kind of the one prescribed,
if you will that use that wordhabit.
(08:09):
It's called the Maui habit andit goes like this After my feet
hit the floor, the first thingout of bed I will say it's going
to be a great day and I've donethis ever since.
Well, bj, what year would yousay you came up with the Maui
habit?
BJ Fogg, Ph.D. (08:27):
oh, probably about 2014 or 15, and then I
gave a talk, a TED talk, in Mauion this, so I decided to
recognize that.
I called it the Maui habit inthe TED talk.
Stephanie Weldy M.Ed. (08:38):
Yeah so you can see BJ reenacting the
habit in the TED talk, but I'vedone this ever since I got home
from the hospital with my brandnew baby and I heard that baby
crying for the first time in themiddle of the night, you know,
and my feet hit the floor.
I'm like it's going to be agreat day.
I mean, it was probably 2 am,it was probably like not even
(09:01):
that much into the night, youknow.
And so now, you know, when mykids wake me up in the morning
or something goes haywire.
I have this anchored habitwhere it's like it's going to be
a great day and I we sometimesadd this moment like it's going
to be a great day somehow.
Or now my kids are young andthey're getting themselves out
(09:21):
of bed, and and we created asong and I think I think maybe I
created this when my son wasquite young it's like it's going
to be a great day, and it goeson and on and you keep saying it
.
But now we have this officialHabit Songs for Kids collection.
And now, once I get downstairs,I'm the cool mom, I have this
little portable speaker that Itake with me almost everywhere
(09:45):
and I put it in the stroller.
So when we walk to school inthe morning I hit a song and
it's like it's so uplifting,everybody loves it.
It's always different,sometimes my kids get to request
one, but that's a way you coulduse it.
Maybe you're driving your kidsto school, you could use them in
the car, maybe you have asports practice or an
after-school activity thatyou're going to.
(10:06):
We just see it as fitting intothe daily routine of families
and in fact sometimes I'll textBJ because my kids will be
sitting there and they'll belike hey, mom, play Wabi Sabi.
And I'm like, oh, okay, youknow.
Or hey, mom, my son was singingthe shine song the other day
(10:26):
after school and I had played itfor him before school.
So if that's a song stuck inhis head all day, what an
awesome melody to be reeling inhis in his brain all day.
Lacy Wolff (10:40):
Absolutely Shine.
I was thinking about and justlistening to you talk, bj, about
how hard it is to teach adultsemotion.
I feel like that's the hardestpart is getting people to
celebrate the win, which is themost important thing in almost
every presentation I give.
Now.
You said emotions create habits, not repetition, not frequency,
(11:07):
not fairy dust.
It's emotion and it's reallydifficult, I think, for people
to understand that.
But if we can teach themyounger, hopefully, then we
really embed that into theirlives.
BJ Fogg, Ph.D. (11:20):
Yeah, let's listen to a clip of the Shine
song and then I'll call out someof the lyrics that I think we
wrote all the lyrics for all thesongs very, very carefully.
But let's give people a senseof this song and then we can dig
in a little bit more.
Lacy Wolff (11:35):
Perfect.
Singer (11:38):
There's a magic potion that can give you a happy
emotion.
You can embrace it at yourcommand and watch darkness flee
and see the light expand.
This mighty emotion is divine.
(12:01):
Let's name it now.
BJ Fogg, Ph.D. (12:11):
Let's call it now.
Let's call it shine.
I really wanted to do a songthat would help kids and adults
and families understand thatthere's this emotion that we
feel that can help us getthrough tough things, but it
also wires in habits.
The feeling of success is whatcauses a habit to form.
It's not repetition.
But this feeling, this emotion,did not have a name until I
(12:32):
wrote the book Tiny Habits.
I talked to my academiccolleagues, experts in not only
psychology but emotions andwords for emotions, and I got in
touch and they're like no, wedo not have a word that talks
about that feeling of success.
It's not quite pride, it's notquite satisfaction.
And so I decided to name it,and I named it Shine.
(12:54):
And that's what this song isdoing it's teaching a word for
this emotion in the hopes thatkids and others will be able to
identify and feel that emotion.
When you have a word for anemotion, you will be able to
identify it better.
That's what research shows andyou can also talk about it.
So the verse starts in yourheart there's a magic potion
(13:18):
that can give you a happyemotion.
You can embrace it at yourcommand and watch darkness flee
and see the light expand.
Now in the next verse, Icontrast it with the opposite.
You might face a shade monstertelling you lies like you're an
(13:39):
imposter.
Push them out.
Throw those lies away.
Use your shine superpower tobring light to the day.
So this isn't exactly.
You know, emotions createhabits and celebrate to wire in
the habits.
It's more about helping peoplehave a word for this emotion
that we've all experienced.
That really helps us in manyways.
(14:01):
Really helps us in many ways.
And the collaborator on thesong, sarah Senatampo she's
awesome and she sings the songand she has kids and it was just
a blast to write and do.
Lacy Wolff (14:13):
I love that.
And Dr Brene Brown talks abouthow most humans can only
identify three emotions happy,sad and angry.
Right, I think was what shesaid in the book Atlas of the
Heart.
And to be able to providechildren just language around
emotion I think is so important.
And also you're even addressingimposter syndrome, which
(14:36):
everyone I think everyone has,so fantastic.
So one of the things you alsotalk quite a bit about with the
behavior model is motivation andhow motivation is fickle.
It's not something that is easyfor us always to come by, and I
like the song that you have inhere about motivation as well,
(14:58):
where you talk about motivationslike a wave.
Can you talk about that one aswell?
BJ Fogg, Ph.D. (15:03):
You know, in the collection that was quite
different.
It's guitar and a woman, whohelped write it, sings the song,
and what is?
It's kind of Beach Boy, kind ofJack Johnson, like you know.
She's sitting on the beachtalking about a motivation wave.
So again, there's thisexperience we've all had where
(15:46):
our motivation goes up and thenit comes back down, and it turns
out that this has never beennamed before.
So I look back in the history ofpsychology and research on
motivation and they hadcomplicated ways to describe it,
but there wasn't a simple term,and so years ago I named it,
along with a guy named DavidSobel who's at Kaiser Permanente
.
We decided let's call itMotivation Wave.
(16:06):
And so that's what this song isabout is to help kids and
parents and families in generalunderstand that your motivation
will go up and down and that'snormal.
That's not a flaw, it's not aweakness.
It's not a weakness.
Just like waves go up and down,they're different sizes, and
each song in this case again weare teaching a word or a phrase
(16:29):
for a psychological construct,in this case motivation wave.
But this song also applies it.
I won't go into the lyrics, butbasically it says when your
motivation is low, then justkick back and recharge or just
do very simple things, okay, anddon't feel bad about that.
That's how it works.
But then when your motivationgoes up, then you do the hard
(16:54):
things, then you go after youknow the big things in your life
, and that is so important for,I think, everybody to understand
that if your motivation's lowdon't beat yourself up Either
recharge or just do the tinysteps, and then when the
motivation's high, that's thetime to tackle hard and
challenging things.
(17:15):
And so it's not like we canalways tackle hard or big
projects, but certainly when themotivation wave goes up, then
take advantage of that.
Lacy Wolff (17:24):
You find that most people have sort of negative
self-talk when they're notmotivated, maybe kind of beating
themselves up or and I thinkthat resonates really throughout
your music is like be kind toyourself.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
BJ Fogg, Ph.D. (17:45):
Yeah you're exactly right.
The collection Habit Songs forKids shares like here's new
words that describe thisconstruct and some of the
techniques for creating habitssuccessfully.
But there's a philosophy aroundtiny habits and, I think,
living successfully, and one ofthose things is to not blame
(18:06):
yourself for not always havinghigh levels of motivation and
certainly don't feel bad aboutbeing imperfect, and one of the
songs in the collection iscalled Wabi Sabi imperfect.
And one of the songs in thecollection is called Wabi Sabi,
which is from Japanese Buddhisttradition, which is basically
I'm oversimplifying it.
The song is called Wabi Sabi andI want to do a song on Wabi
(18:28):
Sabi because I just love theword Wabi Sabi.
But more than that, it's a wayto appreciate things that are
imperfect and see the beauty andimperfection.
Whether it's our own lives,we're imperfect, but you don't
see that as ugly or bad.
You see the beauty of it.
And with others who may not bedoing things perfectly in our
(18:50):
view, but understand thateveryone's doing the best they
can that's a key part of thesong and then having compassion
for that person.
So it's a mix of understandingthat imperfect things are normal
and fine and even beautiful,and then, when the people around
us are imperfect, that's ouropportunity to have compassion
(19:11):
and understand they're doing thebest they can.
Now Stephanie has talked to meabout this song and her boys
actually quite a bit.
It has a really fun vibe to itand fun wordplay and we have two
boys two boys that sing thesong and we wanted it to be
playful and young and notperfect, and they just do a
(19:34):
great job on it.
Singer (19:36):
Let's play a clip of that one
Now we're dancing in the rainwhen, before we might pout, wabi
Sabi teaches us what we're allabout.
We're perfectly imperfect,doing the best we can.
Wabi Sabi, wabi Sabi, let'sgive it a hand.
Wabi Sabi, wabi Sabi.
BJ Fogg, Ph.D. (19:58):
So fun, perfectly imperfect, doing the
best we can.
Stephanie, I don't think it'sthat lyric that your boys are
resonating with, but certainlyit's sinking in.
What do you think it is foryour boys that they like about
this song?
Stephanie Weldy M.Ed. (20:23):
about this song.
Yeah, I think, as parentshelping kids stay curious,
experience the world but alsolearn how to be in the world,
it's important to both, as theparent, highlight the wabi-sabi
and not get lost in that, andthen actually to see it as a
positive and then same with thekids.
So I'll just give a basicexample.
But my kids will come home fromschool and they often are just
(20:46):
covered in whatever their dayheld, you know, and if the
parent you're like, oh mygoodness, more laundry stains.
Or you know, flipped upsidedown lunch boxes, sand in their
shoes, whatever it is.
And you know, flipped upsidedown lunch boxes, fanned in
their shoes, whatever it is.
And you know I have smallerkids so I'm still responsible
for these things almostprimarily with my partner.
Like a little paint on my son'sshirt, it's like, looks like
(21:10):
you did some art today, let'stalk about it.
So it invites the understandinginto his day.
You know, another thing mightbe when you're in the car and
your kids have something andthey break something off of it
or they drop it, it's like, oh,it's okay, you know we can three
wheels, the car will still go.
Or you know, you kind of justlook for the positive and not
(21:35):
throw shade.
I think.
I think it's it's aboutcreating shine, even in those
moments that are imperfect and,in fact, highlighting them.
Like my kid's favorite part ofthe song BJ is when the
teacher's chewing the bubble gum.
I think it's that part whereit's like chomping the gum and
he always says, like chomp,chomp, chomp.
You know, and I'm like, yes, Ilove that because people in your
(21:58):
life are going to have habitsthat kind of annoy you or make
you clench up or whatever.
So, um, and I'll give you areally practical example, like
(22:19):
my holiday cards, I want my kidsto be involved and I was
teaching my son here's how youput the stamps on and oh, by the
way, they're not stickers, youcan't just put them anywhere and
they're so expensive now.
But it's like, you know,letting the crooked stamp, the
little bit of wabi-sabi, be likethis shows that my kids
participated and put the returnaddress things on.
(22:43):
And you know, I just I think asa parent you want to embrace
that in your kid because it getsthem involved in family life.
It gets them involved inactivities that represent bigger
meanings and values in yourfamily and you don't get lost in
the perfection trap which gosh.
(23:04):
I'm a 40 year old woman.
I live listening to my friendstalk about getting stuck in the
perfection trap.
They have a plethora and we seethis with business people all
the time.
They have a plethora of waysthey can tell themselves you
missed the mark, you didn't getit right this time.
Don't even go because you don'tlook as great as you could.
(23:26):
They have so few ways oftelling themselves you did an
awesome job, you delivered agreat experience for your kids.
Good for you, stephanie, orgood for you, lacey.
And we really encourage peoplewho are learning how to form
habits or learning how to usethese songs in their
(23:46):
relationships, or really all themethods to create that list.
Create that, add to the list ofthose we call them celebrations
that tell yourself you're doinga good job.
Because we're very experiencedat the negative but less so in
the positive self-talk category.
Lacy Wolff (24:07):
Yeah, absolutely humans, just in general, I think
it's a seven to one, negativeto positive.
We really need skills to beable to stay positive and to
find that good, very muchconnected to the practice of
gratitude for this opportunity.
BJ Fogg, Ph.D. (24:23):
So, lacey, here's what was great at that
moment, About 15 seconds ago.
As soon as you said Wabi Sabi,we got a freeze in the
technology, and for me, the WabiSabi view of that is like how
amazing Stephanie could be oneside of the US.
I'm just thousands of milesaway and Lacey's there, and yet
we can talk, and there's thislittle glitch that reminded us
(24:46):
in this moment how amazing it isthat we're doing this, and so
the glitch is not the problem.
The glitch reminds us howwonderful and beautiful it is we
can have this conversation.
Lacy Wolff (24:58):
I love that.
I've noticed also throughoutthe songs you're talking a lot
about core values with justbeing a good person, and that's
not as much like if I read TinyHabits I think, the habits you
can use to build core values andthat there's integration there.
(25:18):
But these songs are reallyabout being a good person.
Can you talk a little bit aboutwhat that means and how you
integrated these core values?
BJ Fogg, Ph.D. (25:26):
Yeah, Thanks for recognizing that.
I mean, that wasn't theintention starting out in the
song collection, but for me,it's really important to convey
positive values, and one ofthose is kindness.
I think kindness matters somuch and more and more in our
culture.
I think we're seeing leadersand influencers who are getting
(25:50):
attention because they're notkind, and Stephanie said
something about this, oh, a yearand a half ago.
So, cause we were working on asong about kindness and she's
like this is you know for myboys?
I want them to grow up.
Sorry, Stephanie, I'm puttingwords in your mouth.
I will let you say that andthen I'll talk about that, just
by being kind.
So, Stephanie, when I wassharing this with you and
(26:11):
getting some feedback from you,you said something about why
this mattered for you.
Stephanie Weldy M.Ed. (26:16):
Well, yeah, I think, as a raising, I
always say I'm raising modernboys, boys who can experience
the full gamut of emotion, boyswho can be both soft and strong,
you know, and I think,especially with what they're
seeing in the world, to knowyou're raising boys that show
kindness and respect to peopleof all colors, all backgrounds,
(26:38):
all religions.
That's so important to me.
I feel like I'm raising someonewho shows up and understands
really important topics likeconsent, you know, and then also
everyday topics, like I'm inthe grocery line and I can help
someone right alongside me liftthat heavy thing onto the belt
or whatever.
So I think that was where itwas.
(26:59):
It's like I want kindness to bea core value, and especially in
boys.
I think it's even moreimportant maybe now than ever.
BJ Fogg, Ph.D. (27:07):
So the main song on this is called Just by
being Kind and it's a story songabout a boy who says, wow, can
I change a life by being kind?
And I'm kind of going to giveaway the story, right, the
punchline comes or the aha comeslater, but he gives all these
examples.
He's kind and he practiceskindness.
The boy singing on this we areso lucky to have him sing on it,
(27:31):
he is like a nationallyrecognized artist at that age
and anyway, we're so fortunatehe sang this.
But the punchline at the end isthe life he changed was his own
.
That's what he recognizes atthe end, that yes, he helped
people.
Now, what was interesting aboutthe collection Lacey is, in
(27:53):
order to help these 14 songs fittogether, because they're
different topics, differentstyles, different artists
singing these songs, as I wrote,basically a musical, a
three-act musical, to pull themall together and the thread that
goes through all of them isn't,you know, habits are good and
(28:14):
here are the habits to form.
The thread throughout iskindness.
So habits of kindness, and thissong, just by being Kind, comes
very early, but actuallywithout planning it.
Kindness comes up in many ofthe songs, so it does feel
coherent and there is this storymusical, basically, that maybe
(28:35):
you'll link to and people canlisten, and it's just in draft
form.
That talks about young kidswell, young teens figuring out
how to be kind and how to dothat in a realistic way and
bring it in their lives andtheir community.
And right now that it is a tinytitle the working title is Tiny
, is Mighty a musical storyabout kindness.
(28:57):
So there is kind of this values, and the one that I think
surfaces the most is the powerand importance of being kind.
Lacy Wolff (29:08):
That's amazing and you think about that.
You know, helping someone atthe grocery store makes your
heart happy, and I think also,stephanie, like for you, working
with workplace well-being right, we all want to work at a place
where people are nice and kind,just generally.
(29:28):
It can help our health on somany levels.
So, um, yeah, it makes makes alot of sense to me.
Should we play the song cliphere?
Yeah, let's go ahead and play aclip of just by being kind down
, could I make somebody smile ifI just listened?
Singer (29:47):
for a while, couldn't wait to see it, couldn't wait to
find if I could change a lifefor good just by being kind.
Yep, just by being kind.
BJ Fogg, Ph.D. (30:05):
Here's a side note, lacey we're so lucky to
get this boy, young teen, tosing it, and I had some people
listen and they all thought itwas a woman.
His voice is so beautiful andrefined and they're like, oh,
that's a woman singing.
It's like no, that's a very,very talented boy.
And so then I went in and saidhere's how we're going to fix
(30:25):
this and it worked is to havehim at the beginning saying a
teenage boy like me can make adifference in the world before
he starts singing.
And then there's a spoken partinside to help establish that
it's this boy singing it.
And then it changes the song,because if you think it's a
(30:45):
25-year-old woman, well, that'sone kind of song, but if it is a
13-year-old boy with thisbeautiful, angelic voice, that's
a different song.
And that's what the song is.
Is that?
Singer (30:58):
Even though I'm young, a teenage boy like me can make a
difference in the world.
This story starts with a dream,and in it I could see a lot of
people in need calling out to me, Feeling lonely, feeling lost
or just feeling blue.
(31:19):
Was there something I could?
Lacy Wolff (31:22):
do.
I love that.
So what is your favorite song,BJ, on the album.
BJ Fogg, Ph.D. (31:29):
Depends on what mood I'm in.
There's a song called Easify.
So there's another song thatteaches a word and it's very
playful and fun, and Easify islike, hey, make things easy to
do.
But I think if I had to justpick one at the end of the
collection there's a song calledTwilight, which is a song about
ramping down your day andfollowing the rhythm of nature,
(31:53):
and there are two versions.
There's a version that isorchestrated and violins and so
on, and then we decided to do astripped back version that's
just guitar.
It is a very calming song.
It is a song that will bringout emotions of gratitude and
peace in me, and so even afterworking on the song for what?
(32:16):
Lots and lots of time it stillmoves me and there is kind of a
mantra in it that goes I amloved, I am safe, I am safe, I
am loved.
And.
And people are guided to putthat into a breathing pattern,
and I'll use that breathingpattern even when I'm not so the
song.
What I would love to see happenwith this song and we only
(32:40):
released it recently is to havefamilies play the song in the
evening as a way to wind down,and so if I had to pick one.
It's hard, but that would bethe one I'd pick right now.
Singer (32:53):
When it's my twilight and the day's done, I follow a
pattern just like the sun, Islow my body down, breathe
(33:14):
deeply in and out.
Lacy Wolff (33:21):
Stephanie.
How about you?
What's your favorite right now?
My?
Stephanie Weldy M.Ed. (33:23):
answer is probably similar from like
depends on the mood, depends onthe moment in the day.
Similar from like depends onthe mood, depends on the moment
in the day.
I think for me, you know busyworking parent just feels like
I'm firing all cylinders all thetime.
I think for me there's anothersong called I See Awesomeness,
and it helps me really orient tothe good of what's happening,
(33:51):
Even when I'm tidying my houseand there's like just you know
all this stuff, like where doesthis even come from?
Like I see awesomeness and Ibrought an example.
You know a little show and tell, but I'll be in the bathroom
and we have a towel hook and thetowel is nicely folded when I
leave the bathroom and pullingup the towel now, right, right.
But then when I come in, my boyswill have like crumpled it and
(34:12):
like put on the sink and I'mlike I see awesomeness, because
that means they wash their hands.
If they had to dry them, theyat least wash them or rinse them
with water.
Right, and same thing, likewith their little shoes.
If they're not in the shoebucket, I mean half the time
they are probably half the time.
They're'm like I seeawesomeness.
These are growing, growinglittle kids and those are the
(34:34):
shoes that fit them now, butthey won't soon, and that sand
won't be on this floor soon.
So I see it that way.
Part of the lyrics are you tryyour best at every level, right,
and it's like the skills youhave at four are different than
the skills you have at six.
So it's like celebrating andreally helping myself as a
parent feel good about wherethey are and then also seeing
(34:56):
they're going to blossom in newways.
They're going to change and Iwant them to see me as a source
of constant uplift andpositivity and listening in
their life.
And, by the way, we want thesesame things with our work
colleagues.
We want them with our partnersand peers.
You can take a conversation witha friend and you can use it to
(35:16):
pivot back to yourself, or youcan use it to say, wow, tell me
more, what was that like or whydid that resonate so much with
you?
So I feel like these are thesongs.
Yes, they're written for kidsbecause it's a channel to get
them into families and kids'lives.
But, wow, they're so pertinentin our conversations with our
partners or our conversationswith our neighbors and so on,
(35:39):
and just, there's no thresholdfor how much good we can create
using them, and so a song likethat really helps me see it as a
pathway to being that kind ofperson for other people.
I hope I'm a role model for mykids.
Lacy Wolff (35:53):
I mean, I think that's what so many parents are
also aiming for and it's so easyas a parent, especially when
they're little, to get caught upand it's frustrating.
(36:16):
You just clean this thing and Ihave this image that pops up
every year in my Facebookmemories of these little.
My kids had little GI Joe menall over the house all the time
and, like yarn, attaching them,and I posted this picture to
your point.
I said I'm going to miss thisone day and every year it pops
(36:37):
up and I go oh man, and it's amindset to see awesomeness in
these messes and these thingsthat are happening all around us
, especially when you've got alot going on.
BJ Fogg, Ph.D. (36:47):
Exactly, let me build on those points.
I would say 10 of the 14 songs,so 14 of the collection, 10 of
them.
If, if I, if we'd released analbum for adults.
People say great these.
So there's, there's some thatare really oriented toward kids,
but at least 10 of them aregreat for adults and we wrote
the lyrics and we brought in thetalent.
(37:08):
So it would be something wehope that parents like listening
to.
You know they're not likenursery rhyme songs.
I think the lyrics, every wordin the songs was carefully
chosen.
We revised, revised, revisedand for most of the songs the
music I think is sophisticated.
It's not like rap, it's notlike you, it's not like techno
(37:30):
dance music.
But we've had a lot of adultssay Tiny Habits for Kids songs.
I like these songs.
So even if somebody's listeningto this and like I don't have
kids, there are songs in thecollection that will help you
live a better life and that'sthe purpose of doing this.
Lacy Wolff (37:50):
I love it and I think I would work out to you.
BJ Fogg, Ph.D. (37:53):
Got this so yeah, and that one starts.
You may be quirky, you may beshy, but you've got everything
you need to live a great life.
And the singer on that.
We are so lucky to have him.
Now, some of the songs we havevideos for on there on YouTube.
Stephanie, what do we have?
Five of the songs have acorresponding video.
Lacy Wolff (38:15):
Yeah, I will put the links to the videos in the show
notes so people can access theYouTube videos.
We'll put the links to yourwebsite and as well as the
Spotify and Apple music playlistso people can get straight to
it if they want to listen to themusic.
I'm so grateful for both of youfor spending some time with me
(38:36):
to talk about the new musicthat's come out, and I'm also
just so grateful for all thework you do just to make the
world a better place.
Thank you both so much.
Before we close today, I justwanted to ask both of you this
is our first episode as theBuena Vida podcast.
Buena Vida means a good life,and we're trying to support our
(38:56):
state's workforce in building agood life, whatever that means
for you.
So I'm curious, bj, what does agood life look like for you?
BJ Fogg, Ph.D. (39:04):
So I grew up in a culture and a family that was
all about serving others.
That was like that waseverything, and so I think for
me and that still stays with meit's that I am doing things that
help people be happier andhealthier their physical health,
their relationships, theirconfidence, their ability to
achieve all of those things.
(39:25):
So, and I do feel like thesesongs, you know, in addition to
my book and other things butthese songs are a new and
different way for me to bringthat into the world, and so when
I feel like I'm succeeding onhelping other people be happier
and healthier, that for me isthe good life.
Lacy Wolff (39:44):
Absolutely.
I love that.
Stephanie Weldy M.Ed. (39:45):
And, stephanie, what's a good life
for you, gosh well, I think moreand more about living authentic
and fully as yourself, and Ilook at these tiny humans.
We raise the diversity allaround us and just letting that
surface and be celebrated.
I think for me, I've alwayskind of thought my work in the
(40:09):
world was about connectingpeople to resources that better
and improve their life.
And wow, the best way to dothat is to know yourself really
well and feel fully accepted andallowed and celebrated to be
who you are.
So you know, there's probablylike well-being things and
active in your hobbies and greatrelationships, but also just
(40:32):
accepting yourself where you aretoday and moving forward with
the right methods.
And you know we think the mosteffective ones are the tiny
habits method and using thesetools where you can make
progress in really small ways.
That turns out to betransformative.
Make progress in really smallways.
That turns out to betransformative.
So you know, the good life ishaving great conversations like
(40:54):
this, really examining ourselvesand then feeling confident we
can fully express that and feelsupported in the world to do so.
Lacy Wolff (41:03):
That's great, and I have no doubt that all the work
you're both doing is helping somany people live a good life.
So thank you for all you do and, again, just thank you so much
for spending some time with me.
I look forward to getting thisepisode out to our listeners.
BJ Fogg, Ph.D. (41:18):
Lacey, thank you so much for inviting us.
Stephanie Weldy M.Ed. (41:21):
Yes, thank you so much, lacey, and
here's to Buena Vida for all thelisteners, all right.
Lacy Wolff (41:28):
Thank you so much for joining us for this episode
of the Buena Vida podcast.
I hope you enjoyed listening toDr Fogg and Stephanie Weldy
talk about habit songs for kidsand how the tiny habits method
can help create lasting positivechange in our lives.
Be sure to check out our shownotes for links to all the
information shared in today'sepisode, including resources
(41:49):
from BJ and Stephanie, andsubscribe to the podcast if you
haven't already.
Coming up, in February, we'llbe hosting Dr Jane Morgan.
She is a cardiologist and isthe VP for medical affairs at
Hello Heart.
She specializes in women'shealth and cardiovascular
research and you will not wantto miss that conversation.
(42:10):
As we move to a once a monthschedule for 2025, I'll continue
to bring you impactfulinterviews and insights to
support you living your goodlife.
Thanks again for tuning in.
Until next time, take care andremember that small changes
really can change everything.
And as you move into 2025, I'mgoing to leave you with one more
clip from the Habit Songs forKids album.
(42:31):
Whatever you're working on,stay positive, stay hopeful and
remember you've got this.
Take care everyone.
You got this.
You're better every day, evenwhen it seems that everything is
(42:56):
going wrong.
Thank you.
It used to be keep yourself motivated.
How do you keep yourselfmotivated?
And I rejected that.
I said, no, willpower andmotivation doesn't work in the
long term.
What does is to make sure it'sreally simple and easy so you
can do it every day and beconsistent.
Lacy Wolff (00:13):
Hi everyone and welcome to the Buena Vida
podcast.
I'm your host, Lacy Wolff.
I'm so excited to be kickingoff 2025 with an episode all
about behavior change, which isone of my favorite topics, with
one of the world's leadingexperts on this topic.
You may have noticed a bigchange, and that is the name of
our podcast.
You're still going to be ableto find all of the ERS Walk Talk
(00:35):
podcast episodes in the BuenaVida library, but, moving
forward, the podcast will befound under the name Buena Vida
Podcast, which reflects ourmission of helping our listeners
live a good life.
I could not be more thrilledabout today's guests, dr BJ Fogg
and Stephanie Weldy.
Bj is the founder of theBehavior Design Lab at Stanford
(00:56):
University and he is aworld-renowned expert in habit
formation.
His groundbreaking New YorkTimes bestselling book, tiny
Habits how Small Changes thatChange Everything, has inspired
millions, and his insights havealso made a lasting impact on my
life as well.
Stephanie Weldy has workedclosely with BJ for many years
and she's also an expert inbehavior design and well-being.
(01:19):
She's a certified Tiny Habitscoach and a certified Well
Coaches coach, and she's also afull-time working mom.
Together, bj and Stephanie andthe Tiny Habits team have
recently released their newproject Habit Songs for Kids.
These are fun, science-backedsongs that help kids and parents
alike build better habits,reduce stress and foster growth
(01:41):
at home.
Today, we're going to talk abouttheir project, and I'll be also
sharing some song clips alongthe way.
So, even if you're not a parentor a grandparent or a teacher,
I know you're going to take awaysome great insights from this
conversation, because all ofthese songs are rooted in the
principles of the tiny habitsmethod and are designed to help
anyone learn new behaviors in aneasy and joyful way.
(02:03):
So thanks so much for tuning in.
I'm looking forward to sharingthis conversation and I hope it
helps you get your 2025 startedoff in a really positive way.
Without further ado, here's myconversation with BJ and
Stephanie.
Thank you so much for joining meon the Buena Vida podcast.
I'm so excited to be with youtoday.
(02:24):
Much for joining me on theBuena Vida podcast.
I'm so excited to be with youtoday.
I am looking forward to reallyhearing about the innovative new
work that you're doing.
Dr Fogg, I think a lot ofpeople in my population know a
lot about your work, but forthose who don't, I was thinking
before we got started it wouldbe helpful maybe if you just
give a brief overview of thebehavior model, so that people
(02:46):
kind of know what we're talkingabout when we get into the songs
.
BJ Fogg, Ph.D. (02:48):
Great.
A little bit of context.
So I'm a behavior change guy.
I'm currently situated at theStanford School of Medicine.
They brought me there fromother part of Stanford to be the
applied practical behaviorchange guy and, yes, I've done
academic work in that area.
But I think even more importantis I've coached over 60,000
(03:09):
people personally, personally tocreate habits.
That started in 2011.
I did week after week afterweek for eight years.
So all that hands-on experiencegives you a real sense of what
works and what doesn't.
The method that I developed iscalled Tiny Habits, the book
Atomic Habits, which many peopleJames Clare took my course in
(03:32):
2013, and that got himinterested in habits.
You'll see my work in AtomicHabits, but I also published a
book called Tiny Habits.
The Tiny Habits method came tome because I'd created this
model called the Fog BehaviorModel and I won't go into super
details on that because I'd mapit out and there's visuals to
(03:55):
see.
But it is a model that says abehavior happens and habit is a
type of behavior.
When there's motivation to dothat behavior or habit, when
there's motivation to do thatbehavior or habit, when there's
ability to do that behavior orhabit and there's a prompt,
there's something that says doit now, and the implications of
the model.
There's a curved line on themodel and people can.
(04:16):
If you want to geek out, go tobehaviormodelorg.
The easier the behavior, themore likely that people are to
do it.
Okay, so that was one of theinsights.
There are others, such, themore motivated you are, the more
likely.
But it was me looking at my ownmodel in about 2009, 2010, and
(04:37):
saying, okay, here's what mymodel shows If the behavior or
habit is super, super easy to do, then you can do it, even if
your motivation is not very high.
So, with that insight, Istarted hacking my own behavior,
creating these habits that weresuper small, but I could be
very consistent and reliable.
(04:58):
At the time, this was acompletely maybe not completely,
but nobody was talking aboutmaking these very small, tiny
changes.
Now the landscape has changed.
You see it in wellness programs, you see it in James Clear of
Works, you see it elsewhere, butthat was the path that I went
down, even though people thoughtit was foolish at the time.
(05:19):
Now it's.
People just assume it's alwaysbeen that way.
It hasn't.
It used to be keep yourselfmotivated.
How do you keep yourselfmotivated?
And I rejected that I said nowillpower motivation doesn't
work in the long term.
What does is to make sure it'sreally simple and easy so you
can do it every day and beconsistent.
So fast forward, coachedthousands of people, trained
(05:41):
people to be coaches, and westill do that.
We have a really great trainingprogram so people can be
effective at helping otherchange.
And then there was a point CalStephanie it was probably three
years ago.
Stephanie works very close withme on pretty much everything.
Well, I just felt like kidsaren't going to read the Tiny
Habits book and it would be sogreat for kids to understand the
(06:06):
concepts of how to change andhow to change effectively and
well.
So I started pursuing the pathof creating songs for kids and I
found some songwriters tocollaborate which were fabulous,
found some studio people thatwere incredible, and so really
my contribution on the songs ison the content and making sure
(06:28):
the content's accurate and someinput on other aspects.
But I was working with awesomepros that are very, very good at
the music and the productionand the talent part of it.
And now we have 14 songs in thecollection that we call Habit
Songs for Kids and I'm reallyhappy with the collection
(06:48):
because it conveys some of thekey concepts that I think could
be really helpful for kids andfamilies to understand to make
their lives better, to behealthier and happier.
Lacy Wolff (07:04):
Yeah, I listened to all the songs on my last road
trip and I think there's a lotof gems in there for all of us,
for families, for anybody really.
Stephanie, tell me a little bitabout how you're using the
music and the songs.
I know that you also have twochildren and I don't know if you
can talk just a little bitabout your experience with
working with BJ and how you'reusing the songs in your own life
(07:27):
?
Stephanie Weldy M.Ed. (07:27):
Yeah.
So for context, bj splits histime between Stanford and
industry and I help on primarilythe industry side of things.
We train innovators who arebuilding a product or service in
this systematic approach.
We call it the broad umbrella,fog behavior design and the tiny
habits method and the fogbehavior model.
Some of these things sit underthat umbrella.
(07:49):
Now for my day-to-day life.
I'm practicing what I teach inraising two small kids.
I have kids age four and sixand my alarm goes off at 6, 15
and my feet hit the floor and Ido kind of the one prescribed,
if you will that use that wordhabit.
(08:09):
It's called the Maui habit andit goes like this After my feet
hit the floor, the first thingout of bed I will say it's going
to be a great day and I've donethis ever since.
Well, bj, what year would yousay you came up with the Maui
habit?
BJ Fogg, Ph.D. (08:27):
oh, probably about 2014 or 15, and then I
gave a talk, a TED talk, in Mauion this, so I decided to
recognize that.
I called it the Maui habit inthe TED talk.
Stephanie Weldy M.Ed. (08:38):
Yeah so you can see BJ reenacting the
habit in the TED talk, but I'vedone this ever since I got home
from the hospital with my brandnew baby and I heard that baby
crying for the first time in themiddle of the night, you know,
and my feet hit the floor.
I'm like it's going to be agreat day.
I mean, it was probably 2 am,it was probably like not even
(09:01):
that much into the night, youknow.
And so now, you know, when mykids wake me up in the morning
or something goes haywire.
I have this anchored habitwhere it's like it's going to be
a great day and I we sometimesadd this moment like it's going
to be a great day somehow.
Or now my kids are young andthey're getting themselves out
(09:21):
of bed, and and we created asong and I think I think maybe I
created this when my son wasquite young it's like it's going
to be a great day, and it goeson and on and you keep saying it
.
But now we have this officialHabit Songs for Kids collection.
And now, once I get downstairs,I'm the cool mom, I have this
little portable speaker that Itake with me almost everywhere
(09:45):
and I put it in the stroller.
So when we walk to school inthe morning I hit a song and
it's like it's so uplifting,everybody loves it.
It's always different,sometimes my kids get to request
one, but that's a way you coulduse it.
Maybe you're driving your kidsto school, you could use them in
the car, maybe you have asports practice or an
after-school activity thatyou're going to.
(10:06):
We just see it as fitting intothe daily routine of families
and in fact sometimes I'll textBJ because my kids will be
sitting there and they'll belike hey, mom, play Wabi Sabi.
And I'm like, oh, okay, youknow.
Or hey, mom, my son was singingthe shine song the other day
(10:26):
after school and I had played itfor him before school.
So if that's a song stuck inhis head all day, what an
awesome melody to be reeling inhis in his brain all day.
Lacy Wolff (10:40):
Absolutely Shine.
I was thinking about and justlistening to you talk, bj, about
how hard it is to teach adultsemotion.
I feel like that's the hardestpart is getting people to
celebrate the win, which is themost important thing in almost
every presentation I give.
Now.
You said emotions create habits, not repetition, not frequency,
(11:07):
not fairy dust.
It's emotion and it's reallydifficult, I think, for people
to understand that.
But if we can teach themyounger, hopefully, then we
really embed that into theirlives.
BJ Fogg, Ph.D. (11:20):
Yeah, let's listen to a clip of the Shine
song and then I'll call out someof the lyrics that I think we
wrote all the lyrics for all thesongs very, very carefully.
But let's give people a senseof this song and then we can dig
in a little bit more.
Lacy Wolff (11:35):
Perfect.
Singer (11:38):
There's a magic potion that can give you a happy
emotion.
You can embrace it at yourcommand and watch darkness flee
and see the light expand.
This mighty emotion is divine.
(12:01):
Let's name it now.
BJ Fogg, Ph.D. (12:11):
Let's call it now.
Let's call it shine.
I really wanted to do a songthat would help kids and adults
and families understand thatthere's this emotion that we
feel that can help us getthrough tough things, but it
also wires in habits.
The feeling of success is whatcauses a habit to form.
It's not repetition.
But this feeling, this emotion,did not have a name until I
(12:32):
wrote the book Tiny Habits.
I talked to my academiccolleagues, experts in not only
psychology but emotions andwords for emotions, and I got in
touch and they're like no, wedo not have a word that talks
about that feeling of success.
It's not quite pride, it's notquite satisfaction.
And so I decided to name it,and I named it Shine.
(12:54):
And that's what this song isdoing it's teaching a word for
this emotion in the hopes thatkids and others will be able to
identify and feel that emotion.
When you have a word for anemotion, you will be able to
identify it better.
That's what research shows andyou can also talk about it.
So the verse starts in yourheart there's a magic potion
(13:18):
that can give you a happyemotion.
You can embrace it at yourcommand and watch darkness flee
and see the light expand.
Now in the next verse, Icontrast it with the opposite.
You might face a shade monstertelling you lies like you're an
(13:39):
imposter.
Push them out.
Throw those lies away.
Use your shine superpower tobring light to the day.
So this isn't exactly.
You know, emotions createhabits and celebrate to wire in
the habits.
It's more about helping peoplehave a word for this emotion
that we've all experienced.
That really helps us in manyways.
(14:01):
Really helps us in many ways.
And the collaborator on thesong, sarah Senatampo she's
awesome and she sings the songand she has kids and it was just
a blast to write and do.
Lacy Wolff (14:13):
I love that.
And Dr Brene Brown talks abouthow most humans can only
identify three emotions happy,sad and angry.
Right, I think was what shesaid in the book Atlas of the
Heart.
And to be able to providechildren just language around
emotion I think is so important.
And also you're even addressingimposter syndrome, which
(14:36):
everyone I think everyone has,so fantastic.
So one of the things you alsotalk quite a bit about with the
behavior model is motivation andhow motivation is fickle.
It's not something that is easyfor us always to come by, and I
like the song that you have inhere about motivation as well,
(14:58):
where you talk about motivationslike a wave.
Can you talk about that one aswell?
BJ Fogg, Ph.D. (15:03):
You know, in the collection that was quite
different.
It's guitar and a woman, whohelped write it, sings the song,
and what is?
It's kind of Beach Boy, kind ofJack Johnson, like you know.
She's sitting on the beachtalking about a motivation wave.
So again, there's thisexperience we've all had where
(15:46):
our motivation goes up and thenit comes back down, and it turns
out that this has never beennamed before.
So I look back in the history ofpsychology and research on
motivation and they hadcomplicated ways to describe it,
but there wasn't a simple term,and so years ago I named it,
along with a guy named DavidSobel who's at Kaiser Permanente
.
We decided let's call itMotivation Wave.
(16:06):
And so that's what this song isabout is to help kids and
parents and families in generalunderstand that your motivation
will go up and down and that'snormal.
That's not a flaw, it's not aweakness.
It's not a weakness.
Just like waves go up and down,they're different sizes, and
each song in this case again weare teaching a word or a phrase
(16:29):
for a psychological construct,in this case motivation wave.
But this song also applies it.
I won't go into the lyrics, butbasically it says when your
motivation is low, then justkick back and recharge or just
do very simple things, okay, anddon't feel bad about that.
That's how it works.
But then when your motivationgoes up, then you do the hard
(16:54):
things, then you go after youknow the big things in your life
, and that is so important for,I think, everybody to understand
that if your motivation's lowdon't beat yourself up Either
recharge or just do the tinysteps, and then when the
motivation's high, that's thetime to tackle hard and
challenging things.
(17:15):
And so it's not like we canalways tackle hard or big
projects, but certainly when themotivation wave goes up, then
take advantage of that.
Lacy Wolff (17:24):
You find that most people have sort of negative
self-talk when they're notmotivated, maybe kind of beating
themselves up or and I thinkthat resonates really throughout
your music is like be kind toyourself.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
BJ Fogg, Ph.D. (17:45):
Yeah you're exactly right.
The collection Habit Songs forKids shares like here's new
words that describe thisconstruct and some of the
techniques for creating habitssuccessfully.
But there's a philosophy aroundtiny habits and, I think,
living successfully, and one ofthose things is to not blame
(18:06):
yourself for not always havinghigh levels of motivation and
certainly don't feel bad aboutbeing imperfect, and one of the
songs in the collection iscalled Wabi Sabi imperfect.
And one of the songs in thecollection is called Wabi Sabi,
which is from Japanese Buddhisttradition, which is basically
I'm oversimplifying it.
The song is called Wabi Sabi andI want to do a song on Wabi
(18:28):
Sabi because I just love theword Wabi Sabi.
But more than that, it's a wayto appreciate things that are
imperfect and see the beauty andimperfection.
Whether it's our own lives,we're imperfect, but you don't
see that as ugly or bad.
You see the beauty of it.
And with others who may not bedoing things perfectly in our
(18:50):
view, but understand thateveryone's doing the best they
can that's a key part of thesong and then having compassion
for that person.
So it's a mix of understandingthat imperfect things are normal
and fine and even beautiful,and then, when the people around
us are imperfect, that's ouropportunity to have compassion
(19:11):
and understand they're doing thebest they can.
Now Stephanie has talked to meabout this song and her boys
actually quite a bit.
It has a really fun vibe to itand fun wordplay and we have two
boys two boys that sing thesong and we wanted it to be
playful and young and notperfect, and they just do a
(19:34):
great job on it.
Singer (19:36):
Let's play a clip of that one
Now we're dancing in the rainwhen, before we might pout, wabi
Sabi teaches us what we're allabout.
We're perfectly imperfect,doing the best we can.
Wabi Sabi, wabi Sabi, let'sgive it a hand.
Wabi Sabi, wabi Sabi.
BJ Fogg, Ph.D. (19:58):
So fun, perfectly imperfect, doing the
best we can.
Stephanie, I don't think it'sthat lyric that your boys are
resonating with, but certainlyit's sinking in.
What do you think it is foryour boys that they like about
this song?
Stephanie Weldy M.Ed. (20:23):
about this song.
Yeah, I think, as parentshelping kids stay curious,
experience the world but alsolearn how to be in the world,
it's important to both, as theparent, highlight the wabi-sabi
and not get lost in that, andthen actually to see it as a
positive and then same with thekids.
So I'll just give a basicexample.
But my kids will come home fromschool and they often are just
(20:46):
covered in whatever their dayheld, you know, and if the
parent you're like, oh mygoodness, more laundry stains.
Or you know, flipped upsidedown lunch boxes, sand in their
shoes, whatever it is.
And you know, flipped upsidedown lunch boxes, fanned in
their shoes, whatever it is.
And you know I have smallerkids so I'm still responsible
for these things almostprimarily with my partner.
Like a little paint on my son'sshirt, it's like, looks like
(21:10):
you did some art today, let'stalk about it.
So it invites the understandinginto his day.
You know, another thing mightbe when you're in the car and
your kids have something andthey break something off of it
or they drop it, it's like, oh,it's okay, you know we can three
wheels, the car will still go.
Or you know, you kind of justlook for the positive and not
(21:35):
throw shade.
I think.
I think it's it's aboutcreating shine, even in those
moments that are imperfect and,in fact, highlighting them.
Like my kid's favorite part ofthe song BJ is when the
teacher's chewing the bubble gum.
I think it's that part whereit's like chomping the gum and
he always says, like chomp,chomp, chomp.
You know, and I'm like, yes, Ilove that because people in your
(21:58):
life are going to have habitsthat kind of annoy you or make
you clench up or whatever.
So, um, and I'll give you areally practical example, like
(22:19):
my holiday cards, I want my kidsto be involved and I was
teaching my son here's how youput the stamps on and oh, by the
way, they're not stickers, youcan't just put them anywhere and
they're so expensive now.
But it's like, you know,letting the crooked stamp, the
little bit of wabi-sabi, be likethis shows that my kids
participated and put the returnaddress things on.
(22:43):
And you know, I just I think asa parent you want to embrace
that in your kid because it getsthem involved in family life.
It gets them involved inactivities that represent bigger
meanings and values in yourfamily and you don't get lost in
the perfection trap which gosh.
(23:04):
I'm a 40 year old woman.
I live listening to my friendstalk about getting stuck in the
perfection trap.
They have a plethora and we seethis with business people all
the time.
They have a plethora of waysthey can tell themselves you
missed the mark, you didn't getit right this time.
Don't even go because you don'tlook as great as you could.
(23:26):
They have so few ways oftelling themselves you did an
awesome job, you delivered agreat experience for your kids.
Good for you, stephanie, orgood for you, lacey.
And we really encourage peoplewho are learning how to form
habits or learning how to usethese songs in their
(23:46):
relationships, or really all themethods to create that list.
Create that, add to the list ofthose we call them celebrations
that tell yourself you're doinga good job.
Because we're very experiencedat the negative but less so in
the positive self-talk category.
Lacy Wolff (24:07):
Yeah, absolutely humans, just in general, I think
it's a seven to one, negativeto positive.
We really need skills to beable to stay positive and to
find that good, very muchconnected to the practice of
gratitude for this opportunity.
BJ Fogg, Ph.D. (24:23):
So, lacey, here's what was great at that
moment, About 15 seconds ago.
As soon as you said Wabi Sabi,we got a freeze in the
technology, and for me, the WabiSabi view of that is like how
amazing Stephanie could be oneside of the US.
I'm just thousands of milesaway and Lacey's there, and yet
we can talk, and there's thislittle glitch that reminded us
(24:46):
in this moment how amazing it isthat we're doing this, and so
the glitch is not the problem.
The glitch reminds us howwonderful and beautiful it is we
can have this conversation.
Lacy Wolff (24:58):
I love that.
I've noticed also throughoutthe songs you're talking a lot
about core values with justbeing a good person, and that's
not as much like if I read TinyHabits I think, the habits you
can use to build core values andthat there's integration there.
(25:18):
But these songs are reallyabout being a good person.
Can you talk a little bit aboutwhat that means and how you
integrated these core values?
BJ Fogg, Ph.D. (25:26):
Yeah, Thanks for recognizing that.
I mean, that wasn't theintention starting out in the
song collection, but for me,it's really important to convey
positive values, and one ofthose is kindness.
I think kindness matters somuch and more and more in our
culture.
I think we're seeing leadersand influencers who are getting
(25:50):
attention because they're notkind, and Stephanie said
something about this, oh, a yearand a half ago.
So, cause we were working on asong about kindness and she's
like this is you know for myboys?
I want them to grow up.
Sorry, Stephanie, I'm puttingwords in your mouth.
I will let you say that andthen I'll talk about that, just
by being kind.
So, Stephanie, when I wassharing this with you and
(26:11):
getting some feedback from you,you said something about why
this mattered for you.
Stephanie Weldy M.Ed. (26:16):
Well, yeah, I think, as a raising, I
always say I'm raising modernboys, boys who can experience
the full gamut of emotion, boyswho can be both soft and strong,
you know, and I think,especially with what they're
seeing in the world, to knowyou're raising boys that show
kindness and respect to peopleof all colors, all backgrounds,
(26:38):
all religions.
That's so important to me.
I feel like I'm raising someonewho shows up and understands
really important topics likeconsent, you know, and then also
everyday topics, like I'm inthe grocery line and I can help
someone right alongside me liftthat heavy thing onto the belt
or whatever.
So I think that was where itwas.
(26:59):
It's like I want kindness to bea core value, and especially in
boys.
I think it's even moreimportant maybe now than ever.
BJ Fogg, Ph.D. (27:07):
So the main song on this is called Just by
being Kind and it's a story songabout a boy who says, wow, can
I change a life by being kind?
And I'm kind of going to giveaway the story, right, the
punchline comes or the aha comeslater, but he gives all these
examples.
He's kind and he practiceskindness.
The boy singing on this we areso lucky to have him sing on it,
(27:31):
he is like a nationallyrecognized artist at that age
and anyway, we're so fortunatehe sang this.
But the punchline at the end isthe life he changed was his own
.
That's what he recognizes atthe end, that yes, he helped
people.
Now, what was interesting aboutthe collection Lacey is, in
(27:53):
order to help these 14 songs fittogether, because they're
different topics, differentstyles, different artists
singing these songs, as I wrote,basically a musical, a
three-act musical, to pull themall together and the thread that
goes through all of them isn't,you know, habits are good and
(28:14):
here are the habits to form.
The thread throughout iskindness.
So habits of kindness, and thissong, just by being Kind, comes
very early, but actuallywithout planning it.
Kindness comes up in many ofthe songs, so it does feel
coherent and there is this storymusical, basically, that maybe
(28:35):
you'll link to and people canlisten, and it's just in draft
form.
That talks about young kidswell, young teens figuring out
how to be kind and how to dothat in a realistic way and
bring it in their lives andtheir community.
And right now that it is a tinytitle the working title is Tiny
, is Mighty a musical storyabout kindness.
(28:57):
So there is kind of this values, and the one that I think
surfaces the most is the powerand importance of being kind.
Lacy Wolff (29:08):
That's amazing and you think about that.
You know, helping someone atthe grocery store makes your
heart happy, and I think also,stephanie, like for you, working
with workplace well-being right, we all want to work at a place
where people are nice and kind,just generally.
(29:28):
It can help our health on somany levels.
So, um, yeah, it makes makes alot of sense to me.
Should we play the song cliphere?
Yeah, let's go ahead and play aclip of just by being kind down
, could I make somebody smile ifI just listened?
Singer (29:47):
for a while, couldn't wait to see it, couldn't wait to
find if I could change a lifefor good just by being kind.
Yep, just by being kind.
BJ Fogg, Ph.D. (30:05):
Here's a side note, lacey we're so lucky to
get this boy, young teen, tosing it, and I had some people
listen and they all thought itwas a woman.
His voice is so beautiful andrefined and they're like, oh,
that's a woman singing.
It's like no, that's a very,very talented boy.
And so then I went in and saidhere's how we're going to fix
(30:25):
this and it worked is to havehim at the beginning saying a
teenage boy like me can make adifference in the world before
he starts singing.
And then there's a spoken partinside to help establish that
it's this boy singing it.
And then it changes the song,because if you think it's a
(30:45):
25-year-old woman, well, that'sone kind of song, but if it is a
13-year-old boy with thisbeautiful, angelic voice, that's
a different song.
And that's what the song is.
Is that?
Singer (30:58):
Even though I'm young, a teenage boy like me can make a
difference in the world.
This story starts with a dream,and in it I could see a lot of
people in need calling out to me, Feeling lonely, feeling lost
or just feeling blue.
(31:19):
Was there something I could?
Lacy Wolff (31:22):
do.
I love that.
So what is your favorite song,BJ, on the album.
BJ Fogg, Ph.D. (31:29):
Depends on what mood I'm in.
There's a song called Easify.
So there's another song thatteaches a word and it's very
playful and fun, and Easify islike, hey, make things easy to
do.
But I think if I had to justpick one at the end of the
collection there's a song calledTwilight, which is a song about
ramping down your day andfollowing the rhythm of nature,
(31:53):
and there are two versions.
There's a version that isorchestrated and violins and so
on, and then we decided to do astripped back version that's
just guitar.
It is a very calming song.
It is a song that will bringout emotions of gratitude and
peace in me, and so even afterworking on the song for what?
(32:16):
Lots and lots of time it stillmoves me and there is kind of a
mantra in it that goes I amloved, I am safe, I am safe, I
am loved.
And.
And people are guided to putthat into a breathing pattern,
and I'll use that breathingpattern even when I'm not so the
song.
What I would love to see happenwith this song and we only
(32:40):
released it recently is to havefamilies play the song in the
evening as a way to wind down,and so if I had to pick one.
It's hard, but that would bethe one I'd pick right now.
Singer (32:53):
When it's my twilight and the day's done, I follow a
pattern just like the sun, Islow my body down, breathe
(33:14):
deeply in and out.
Lacy Wolff (33:21):
Stephanie.
How about you?
What's your favorite right now?
My?
Stephanie Weldy M.Ed. (33:23):
answer is probably similar from like
depends on the mood, depends onthe moment in the day.
Similar from like depends onthe mood, depends on the moment
in the day.
I think for me, you know busyworking parent just feels like
I'm firing all cylinders all thetime.
I think for me there's anothersong called I See Awesomeness,
and it helps me really orient tothe good of what's happening,
(33:51):
Even when I'm tidying my houseand there's like just you know
all this stuff, like where doesthis even come from?
Like I see awesomeness and Ibrought an example.
You know a little show and tell, but I'll be in the bathroom
and we have a towel hook and thetowel is nicely folded when I
leave the bathroom and pullingup the towel now, right, right.
But then when I come in, my boyswill have like crumpled it and
(34:12):
like put on the sink and I'mlike I see awesomeness, because
that means they wash their hands.
If they had to dry them, theyat least wash them or rinse them
with water.
Right, and same thing, likewith their little shoes.
If they're not in the shoebucket, I mean half the time
they are probably half the time.
They're'm like I seeawesomeness.
These are growing, growinglittle kids and those are the
(34:34):
shoes that fit them now, butthey won't soon, and that sand
won't be on this floor soon.
So I see it that way.
Part of the lyrics are you tryyour best at every level, right,
and it's like the skills youhave at four are different than
the skills you have at six.
So it's like celebrating andreally helping myself as a
parent feel good about wherethey are and then also seeing
(34:56):
they're going to blossom in newways.
They're going to change and Iwant them to see me as a source
of constant uplift andpositivity and listening in
their life.
And, by the way, we want thesesame things with our work
colleagues.
We want them with our partnersand peers.
You can take a conversation witha friend and you can use it to
(35:16):
pivot back to yourself, or youcan use it to say, wow, tell me
more, what was that like or whydid that resonate so much with
you?
So I feel like these are thesongs.
Yes, they're written for kidsbecause it's a channel to get
them into families and kids'lives.
But, wow, they're so pertinentin our conversations with our
partners or our conversationswith our neighbors and so on,
(35:39):
and just, there's no thresholdfor how much good we can create
using them, and so a song likethat really helps me see it as a
pathway to being that kind ofperson for other people.
I hope I'm a role model for mykids.
Lacy Wolff (35:53):
I mean, I think that's what so many parents are
also aiming for and it's so easyas a parent, especially when
they're little, to get caught upand it's frustrating.
(36:16):
You just clean this thing and Ihave this image that pops up
every year in my Facebookmemories of these little.
My kids had little GI Joe menall over the house all the time
and, like yarn, attaching them,and I posted this picture to
your point.
I said I'm going to miss thisone day and every year it pops
(36:37):
up and I go oh man, and it's amindset to see awesomeness in
these messes and these thingsthat are happening all around us
, especially when you've got alot going on.
BJ Fogg, Ph.D. (36:47):
Exactly, let me build on those points.
I would say 10 of the 14 songs,so 14 of the collection, 10 of
them.
If, if I, if we'd released analbum for adults.
People say great these.
So there's, there's some thatare really oriented toward kids,
but at least 10 of them aregreat for adults and we wrote
the lyrics and we brought in thetalent.
(37:08):
So it would be something wehope that parents like listening
to.
You know they're not likenursery rhyme songs.
I think the lyrics, every wordin the songs was carefully
chosen.
We revised, revised, revisedand for most of the songs the
music I think is sophisticated.
It's not like rap, it's notlike you, it's not like techno
(37:30):
dance music.
But we've had a lot of adultssay Tiny Habits for Kids songs.
I like these songs.
So even if somebody's listeningto this and like I don't have
kids, there are songs in thecollection that will help you
live a better life and that'sthe purpose of doing this.
Lacy Wolff (37:50):
I love it and I think I would work out to you.
BJ Fogg, Ph.D. (37:53):
Got this so yeah, and that one starts.
You may be quirky, you may beshy, but you've got everything
you need to live a great life.
And the singer on that.
We are so lucky to have him.
Now, some of the songs we havevideos for on there on YouTube.
Stephanie, what do we have?
Five of the songs have acorresponding video.
Lacy Wolff (38:15):
Yeah, I will put the links to the videos in the show
notes so people can access theYouTube videos.
We'll put the links to yourwebsite and as well as the
Spotify and Apple music playlistso people can get straight to
it if they want to listen to themusic.
I'm so grateful for both of youfor spending some time with me
(38:36):
to talk about the new musicthat's come out, and I'm also
just so grateful for all thework you do just to make the
world a better place.
Thank you both so much.
Before we close today, I justwanted to ask both of you this
is our first episode as theBuena Vida podcast.
Buena Vida means a good life,and we're trying to support our
(38:56):
state's workforce in building agood life, whatever that means
for you.
So I'm curious, bj, what does agood life look like for you?
BJ Fogg, Ph.D. (39:04):
So I grew up in a culture and a family that was
all about serving others.
That was like that waseverything, and so I think for
me and that still stays with meit's that I am doing things that
help people be happier andhealthier their physical health,
their relationships, theirconfidence, their ability to
achieve all of those things.
(39:25):
So, and I do feel like thesesongs, you know, in addition to
my book and other things butthese songs are a new and
different way for me to bringthat into the world, and so when
I feel like I'm succeeding onhelping other people be happier
and healthier, that for me isthe good life.
Lacy Wolff (39:44):
Absolutely.
I love that.
Stephanie Weldy M.Ed. (39:45):
And, stephanie, what's a good life
for you, gosh well, I think moreand more about living authentic
and fully as yourself, and Ilook at these tiny humans.
We raise the diversity allaround us and just letting that
surface and be celebrated.
I think for me, I've alwayskind of thought my work in the
(40:09):
world was about connectingpeople to resources that better
and improve their life.
And wow, the best way to dothat is to know yourself really
well and feel fully accepted andallowed and celebrated to be
who you are.
So you know, there's probablylike well-being things and
active in your hobbies and greatrelationships, but also just
(40:32):
accepting yourself where you aretoday and moving forward with
the right methods.
And you know we think the mosteffective ones are the tiny
habits method and using thesetools where you can make
progress in really small ways.
That turns out to betransformative.
Make progress in really smallways.
That turns out to betransformative.
So you know, the good life ishaving great conversations like
(40:54):
this, really examining ourselvesand then feeling confident we
can fully express that and feelsupported in the world to do so.
Lacy Wolff (41:03):
That's great, and I have no doubt that all the work
you're both doing is helping somany people live a good life.
So thank you for all you do and, again, just thank you so much
for spending some time with me.
I look forward to getting thisepisode out to our listeners.
BJ Fogg, Ph.D. (41:18):
Lacey, thank you so much for inviting us.
Stephanie Weldy M.Ed. (41:21):
Yes, thank you so much, lacey, and
here's to Buena Vida for all thelisteners, all right.
Lacy Wolff (41:28):
Thank you so much for joining us for this episode
of the Buena Vida podcast.
I hope you enjoyed listening toDr Fogg and Stephanie Weldy
talk about habit songs for kidsand how the tiny habits method
can help create lasting positivechange in our lives.
Be sure to check out our shownotes for links to all the
information shared in today'sepisode, including resources
(41:49):
from BJ and Stephanie, andsubscribe to the podcast if you
haven't already.
Coming up, in February, we'llbe hosting Dr Jane Morgan.
She is a cardiologist and isthe VP for medical affairs at
Hello Heart.
She specializes in women'shealth and cardiovascular
research and you will not wantto miss that conversation.
(42:10):
As we move to a once a monthschedule for 2025, I'll continue
to bring you impactfulinterviews and insights to
support you living your goodlife.
Thanks again for tuning in.
Until next time, take care andremember that small changes
really can change everything.
And as you move into 2025, I'mgoing to leave you with one more
clip from the Habit Songs forKids album.
(42:31):
Whatever you're working on,stay positive, stay hopeful and
remember you've got this.
Take care everyone.
You got this.
You're better every day, evenwhen it seems that everything is
(42:56):
going wrong.
Thank you.
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