February 4, 2025 • 47 mins
In this episode, we dive straight into the coping mechanisms we use every day to function (and survive). We discuss both helpful and harmful ways to dissociate and find comfort in the chaos (video games, shopping, tv shows, sleep) especially if you're neurodivergent. We focus on taking care of our mental health, the importance of therapy and meds, and the struggles of actually obtaining the diagnosis/medication you need. We also highlight the emotional impact of the pandemic—especially when it comes to kids.
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The Burnout Collective Podcast is hosted by Jamie Young and Rebecca McCracken. We’ve had every ounce of inspiration sucked out by years of startups and hustle culture, and we’re trying to reclaim our creativity. Join us and our guests as we explore how to restart and reenergize our brains. Every Thursday at 5pm PT, we stream live on twitch.tv/TheBurnoutCollective.
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Music track: Snap Your Fingers by Aylex
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
REBECCA (00:00):
Remember that whole autism thing?
(00:01):
I did not know.
I thought you were serious.
I
JAMIE (00:05):
know.
I'm sorry.
REBECCA (00:06):
You could get me to do a lot of stuff.
I
JAMIE (00:07):
know.
I know.
Now the wheels in my head areturning.
No, but I would never.
I'm Jamie.
And I'm Rebecca.
Welcome to the BurnoutCollective.
REBECCA (00:22):
I Hello, everybody.
Welcome back.
Welcome to episode nine.
We
JAMIE (00:27):
did it.
I can't believe we've done itfor this long.
I'm like, I know I'm, I'mlegitimately shocked because we
don't, we stick with things.
REBECCA (00:41):
I know.
I was expecting to spend 300 ona microphone and a headphones
and then just put them in acloset and three episodes and
we're at nine.
JAMIE (00:51):
I know.
That's great.
REBECCA (00:53):
That's great.
JAMIE (00:55):
Today
REBECCA (00:56):
into our topic.
Right.
JAMIE (00:57):
Mm hmm.
It's wellness.
Our topic is,
REBECCA (01:04):
well,
JAMIE (01:06):
coping, coping mechanisms,
REBECCA (01:09):
coping mechanism.
JAMIE (01:09):
Yeah.
Meds are wellness for sure.
Yeah, we can talk about it.
We can talk about it.
REBECCA (01:17):
meds are wellness in that we keep everyone alive
around us when we medicate.
No, it's not necessarilywellness for us.
It's wellness for you.
for everyone who we interactwith on a daily basis.
JAMIE (01:28):
Yeah, I medicate specifically for Rob Lasser.
Like, I specifically medicatefor him, so I don't murder him.
So, that's why I medicate.
Rebecca, why do you, why do youmedicate?
It's like one of thosecommercials, like, I medicate
for, for my kids.
REBECCA (01:46):
Okay, so this is a complete tangent, but I have to
tell you, there is a diabetescommercial now, where they're
all singing about, like, thisdiabetes medication, and it's
super happy.
But like one of the, you know,like they do that really fast
talking about the side effects.
One of them is like theinfection.
JAMIE (02:03):
Oh,
REBECCA (02:03):
no, an infection in your taint.
Oh, like what?
And it's horrific.
And every time it comes on, I'mjust doing nothing and not
paying attention.
And then that part comes on andI did a
JAMIE (02:14):
taint infection, if you will.
REBECCA (02:17):
Yeah, and it's like, Oh my god, they said it out loud on
TV.
And it's just What a hor—, like,who's gonna see that and be
like, yes, that medication forWait, they
JAMIE (02:25):
said taint infection?
REBECCA (02:28):
No, they said like the, the, what's the word?
The perineum.
So a rare but serious infectionof the perineum and genital area
can occur in people taking sodioglucose cotransporter 2
inhibitors, a class of diabetesmedication.
And they said all those words atonce.
A rare but serious infection.
JAMIE (02:47):
Oh, God.
REBECCA (02:48):
And I even think they said life threatening.
JAMIE (02:51):
Oh, no.
REBECCA (02:53):
I know.
So, sorry to tangent, but Iheard I mean,
JAMIE (02:56):
it was worth
REBECCA (02:57):
it.
JAMIE (02:58):
Absolutely worth it.
REBECCA (03:00):
But I medicate because everyone in my family is lacking
those chemicals in their brainthat allow them to function like
normal people.
and I have that genetic trait aswell.
JAMIE (03:15):
Well.
Medication.
Don't get it.
What is it?
REBECCA (03:19):
If you can't make your own serotonin, store bought is
fine?
That one?
Is that what they say?
JAMIE (03:24):
I don't know.
Is that what you say?
That's what
REBECCA (03:27):
that is.
Why do you medicate?
JAMIE (03:29):
I medicate to function.
I medicate honestly to likekeeping myself and my cats
alive.
it is, it's literally self carefor me.
And it's the same with therapy,meds.
Remember when I, I, I'vestruggled with many things.
(03:50):
Most of my life, like startingat a young age, like insomnia,
depression, anxiety.
I feel like my anxiety when Iwas younger was not that bad.
I think now that I've gottenolder, my anxiety has just
gotten worse.
REBECCA (04:07):
That's the kicker though.
As women get older, thosesymptoms like ramp up.
Yeah.
So fucking unfair.
JAMIE (04:15):
Yeah.
And I mean, same with ADHD.
Yeah.
Like, I mean, I definitely canlike, look back and see that I
did have ADHD.
My experiences with people who Iknew had ADHD back then, it was
mostly boys who were very justhyperactive and would have like
(04:39):
verbal, physical, like outburstsand stuff like that.
And, that wasn't me.
So although I, I suspected thatI had ADD back then, it
definitely didn't seem asprominent as it is now, for
sure.
REBECCA (04:52):
Well, it was in the eighties too, when.
ADHD was only being attributedto boys, and it was those very
specific, like, verbal, physicaltics.
But girls, because we'reconditioned to mask and be more
socially, quote, acceptable, itwas much easier for us to kind
of internalize it, but it wouldjust come out in other really
(05:13):
harmful ways.
JAMIE (05:14):
Yeah.
But, yeah, mostly just,distracted and always just Okay,
what can I do next?
What can I do while I'm doingthis thing?
And also I just feel like mybrain was so, I read so much
when I was a kid and I likedon't read now and I always
attributed it to being an editorand like I read all day long so
(05:38):
I don't really want to read forpleasure anymore even, which is
so sad! Again, that's anotherlike You know, the man's taken
away my creativity and, anoutlet for that.
REBECCA (05:53):
but you're making money off a hyper fixation though,
which I think is reallyinteresting.
Cause I was also the same.
I read a lot and now I get paidto do that.
JAMIE (06:02):
That's true.
Yeah.
REBECCA (06:03):
and let's not forget our favorite part about being
editors.
Jamie,
JAMIE (06:07):
we tell people what to do and we tell them they're wrong
and we're right.
And yeah, that's the best.
That's the best part of life,Rebecca.
Absolutely.
REBECCA (06:18):
I know.
Honestly, it's so good.
As we get older, men grow out ofA DHD, and women basically our
ability to mask and functionstarts to break down, and we
just become, especially whenparents feral,
JAMIE (06:33):
we become feral.
Feral,
REBECCA (06:35):
yes.
Legitimately.
Did your mom ever catch thatsomething was maybe different or
did you get more in trouble forthat when you were younger?
JAMIE (06:46):
I honestly think that.
My parents were, were surprisedwhen I was diagnosed with ADHD,
which was only, four years ago?
but it definitely has gottenworse.
But the thing is, because itwas, it had been so long of me
dealing with these things, evenlike depression and, insomnia
(07:08):
that I had.
my brain, on top of masking,like my brain also trained
myself to have workarounds tolike MacGyver my mental health
that I wasn't being treated forproperly.
so I had some things in placethat, that like were to me more
like a Band Aid, you know, likeyou had duct tape and a
(07:30):
paperclip and you were like, nowdepression's not that bad, you
know, now you can sleep a littlebit.
REBECCA (07:39):
My mother was not surprised as she looked at my
Star Trek engineer, a father.
And she took, she took me to thedoctor when I was super little
and was like, something is wrongand the doctor said, and this is
a direct quote.
And again, because it was the80s and autism was only studied
in boys.
He said, what do you want her tolike, sit in a corner and rock
(08:02):
and drool.
She's just one of those pain inthe ass kids.
So no one was surprised and noone got the help they needed
until
JAMIE (08:12):
Yeah.
I think that's happening for alot of millennials.
We were diagnosed just a fewyears ago
REBECCA (08:17):
I think a lot of this conversation came out of those
years of us finding our owncoping mechanisms before there
was therapy and or medication.
JAMIE (08:26):
Truly.
That, like, wasn't a thing.
REBECCA (08:30):
I remember before I was like, correctly medicated, it
was during the pandemic andtreatment.
I was sitting on my couch, andyou know those emails where,
like, we found your emailonline, and your password, and
we've been able to hack yourwebcam, pay us this much money,
right?
And I just laughed because Iknew that all I've been doing
(08:50):
for months now is sitting on mycouch eating Doritos And I was
like, fucking send it.
Do it.
I don't care what it is you'regonna do.
I feel like
JAMIE (08:55):
I dare you.
I dare you.
REBECCA (08:59):
Crying into a bag of Doritos.
Oh no.
That's how I knew it was reallybad.
JAMIE (09:06):
That's one of my favorites.
Rebecca's story is certainly.
REBECCA (09:11):
But that was one of my coping mechanisms.
That coping mechanism was justeating for the dopamine.
So coping mechanisms.
So Jamie, why do people docoping mechanisms aside from
existing?
Like being able to exist?
What's the point?
JAMIE (09:33):
To disassociate?
REBECCA (09:35):
To disassociate! My favorite.
JAMIE (09:39):
That's why I play games.
That's why I watch Law and OrderSVU over and over and over
again.
It's comforting.
REBECCA (09:51):
Because your brain doesn't have to do anything.
It's basically like screensavermode and your soul leaves your
body.
You don't have to exist for awhile.
It's comforting.
Great.
JAMIE (10:01):
I need something to just literally get me out of my head
and focus on something.
Like, that's why we play gameslike Farming Sins, right?
REBECCA (10:10):
Because I don't want to fucking clean but I sure as shit
can dig holes with a pretend hoeon a video game for hours at a
time.
JAMIE (10:20):
Rebecca, don't sell yourself short.
You a real hoe.
You a real one.
REBECCA (10:25):
Thank you.
But like, I can't do chores, butI can do pretend chores.
I can do real chores, but I willdo pretend chores all day long.
JAMIE (10:32):
Animal Crossing, Stardew Valley, Moonstone Island, and
recently, Sons of the Forest,which is my favorite thing
Rebecca plays with us.
I was like, Hey, you should getthis and play with me, and I was
like certain she would look atit and be like, absolutely not.
I think that's the problem.
(10:53):
I could really, I could easilytake advantage of you.
I feel like you just trust metoo much, Rebecca.
REBECCA (10:58):
I, I do.
Like that one game, there wasone game where like, yeah, I
think it's just like a videogame about taking care of
yourself in a game.
And I bought it.
And the next thing I know,there's like some horrific anime
thing behind me going like, whydon't you love me?
And I'm screaming every fiveminutes.
JAMIE (11:16):
The game is, the game is called My Side, by the way, M I
S I D E and You're like 15, 20minutes in, and all of a sudden
you go, I think there was blood.
And all of a sudden you go, Isthis a horror game?
And I was like, yeah.
And you're like, didn't knowthat.
(11:39):
You told me it was about selfcare.
I'm pretty sure I was beingpretty sardonic when I was like,
self care.
REBECCA (11:45):
Yeah.
Remember that whole autismthing?
I did not know.
I thought you were serious.
I
JAMIE (11:50):
know.
I'm sorry.
REBECCA (11:51):
You could get me to do a lot of stuff.
I
JAMIE (11:52):
know.
I know.
Now the wheels in my head areturning.
No, but I would never.
REBECCA (11:58):
That's the difference though between disassociating
and a hobby.
Like a hobby you do for fun andan activity to disassociate
means you're not even reallypresent there.
You're just like an autopilot.
JAMIE (12:12):
And that's what we have to do.
it's just like putting yourselfin recovery mode, or like, safe
mode.
That's why, like, for thelongest time, after work, I
would immediately end work.
And jump into gaming like withmy friends or by myself,
sometimes I couldn't even gamewith friends and that would be
(12:33):
like, I think depressioncreeping in because with
depression, you know, like, youdon't, or at least I don't, my
depression displays as like, Idon't want to be around anybody.
That's just what I had to do tobasically survive.
REBECCA (12:49):
And it's the survival thing too.
It's.
I can either kill myself or Ican just leave my body for a
while.
JAMIE (12:57):
I feel like we probably shouldn't say that
REBECCA (12:59):
sorry.
JAMIE (13:00):
No.
REBECCA (13:01):
Not sorry.
Cause really that's where wewere for a long time, The
downside, I was going to say, ofdisassociative activities,
though, is some of them arecompletely benign, like playing
games, but then some of them areactively harmful to you and are
not in your best interest.
And Even though they feel goodin the moment, like, I'll just
(13:28):
say it for me.
JAMIE (13:29):
Heroin.
Oh.
REBECCA (13:31):
Oh yeah, no, that too.
But, bitches be shopping.
And shoving.
Yep.
All the shopping.
All the money.
JAMIE (13:38):
Yeah.
same.
I definitely shop to cope.
sometimes it's not even very, Idon't know, it's not like a
conscious thing.
REBECCA (13:51):
Not to go back to the pandemic, but there was very
little to look forward to.
Yeah, just full disclosure.
My daughter at the verybeginning had to be
hospitalized.
Like she.
Almost died.
She got so sick and that fuckedwith me for a long time.
And so Everything wasterrifying.
And that little bit of like,something to look forward to and
(14:13):
something to like be excitedabout.
Like I latched onto that.
and I think that's when thingsreally ramped up.
JAMIE (14:20):
Yeah.
That messed a lot of things up.
I keep thinking.
And now I don't remember what mytrain of thought was.
REBECCA (14:27):
disassociating that can be harmful.
Stop to feel things.
you have sleeping on here, likethings like sleeping.
JAMIE (14:34):
Oh yeah.
So
REBECCA (14:35):
if you like good, but also oversleeping can actually
not be great for you either.
JAMIE (14:40):
Oh yeah.
Or when you like, what is itcalled?
What's it called when you'relike making yourself stay awake?
it's like revenge amphetamine.
basically meth.
No,
REBECCA (14:54):
I know what you're talking about though.
When like you're, I'm notfucking going to sleep.
Cause this is the only time Ihave to myself at night or I'm
going to do the thing.
JAMIE (15:02):
And I noticed that more and more.
And it's so funny because I'mactually very conscious about a
lot of my mental health, things,I'm very conscious of
everything.
So like, even in therapy, I'llbe talking to my therapist and
I'll be like, yeah, and I didthis and I know like, I
recognize that that's harmfuland that's not a good response.
(15:23):
but I mean, it doesn't matter.
Like that's still going to be myresponse.
REBECCA (15:27):
But that's the problem with neurodivergence though, is
we can intelligently andobjectively spot like what our
issues are, but actually puttingthings into practice.
We can intelligently talk aboutour own whatever all day long,
but it's the actual, like,changing things and putting
those into practice that wecan't do.
(15:49):
Which makes it very difficult togo to therapy and, like, be
successful.
Yeah.
JAMIE (15:55):
That's why I hate it, too, that, like, Getting,
getting medication, gettingdiagnosed, first of all, can be
so difficult.
and it can be just so drainingtoo.
And like getting diagnosed withanything, like I'm referring to
ADHD, but it could be anything.
it's such, it can be such along, frustrating process.
(16:20):
And, like, once, like, let'ssay, then you're put on meds for
ADHD and you're prescribed medsand some of them, you know,
like, ADHD meds are typically,not always, but typically
controlled substances and, youknow, I can't get those meds
delivered.
I have to physically go and getthe meds and show them my ID,
(16:41):
which to me, it's so hard for usto do these tasks.
And so it's taking everything inus to be able to.
get our medication.
So if something goes wrong andlike, even with like other, not
ailments, but like other mentalhealth conditions, like add
depression to ADHD.
(17:02):
And it's like, I'm toodepressed.
I'm not leaving my house.
And then I'm like.
REBECCA (17:06):
My fancy meth delivered.
Yeah.
My fancy meth needs to bedelivered to my house.
JAMIE (17:11):
Give me my fancy meth.
give me my, give me my legalmeth.
Goddammit.
yeah,
REBECCA (17:20):
But again, it's those that is those Disassociations
and like you have to hypeyourself up to go do it Don't
feel better until you get themeds and it's just a vicious
fucking cycle
JAMIE (17:30):
Yeah And I'll like I'll go days with that's what I did
just recently kind of is likeI'll go days Without meds and
I'll be like, oh, I don't havemeds Just gotta go get them Just
got to get up and go outside andgo get them and it's the hardest
thing sometimes
REBECCA (17:49):
Not throwing you under the bus, but as someone who
hasn't like used them for a longtime I've noticed that when
you're like, why am I crying?
I don't know and the answer islike did you take your meds?
You're like, oh no becauseyou're not used to it.
And so yeah used to itInternalized and just feeling
like shit all the time.
Yeah that You don't ever thinkit could be something that's not
you, and that's not an internalissue.
(18:11):
It's just you haven't taken yourmeds.
JAMIE (18:13):
It's very true.
I mean, and I also think that'sbecause it's like us.
And like, you know me so well,so you can recognize that.
Well,
REBECCA (18:20):
no, but I haven't had my ADHD meds in like a week
because I'm off work and I'mlike, Why do I have a migraine
and why do I want to killeverybody?
JAMIE (18:29):
And that's crazy.
Like I don't, I, I will go acouple of days here or there,
but, overall I can't do itbecause it's miserable.
And it's just like, I rememberit was the, so before, obviously
since I'm more recently on, ADHDmedication, I went on
antidepressants for the firsttime.
And again, literally.
(18:51):
have been suffering fromdepression and major depression,
like MDD, like since, I mean, atleast a teenager, and I went
that long even without going totherapy because back then, you
know, it's like, you're younger.
It's kind of like up to yourparents to send you to therapy.
But back in like the ninetiesand even the early aughts, you
(19:12):
know, that wasn't, a big thing.
I mean, just like ADHD wasn't ahuge thing, especially for,
girls.
so that's just not something, itwasn't very typical for people
to say, I need to send my kid totherapy or for your child to
say, like, I think I might needto go to therapy or I want to go
(19:33):
to therapy.
That just like, wasn't in atleast where I was, like in my
family, that just wasn't in thevocabulary, you know?
REBECCA (19:43):
And the ugly result of that is.
You make your own copingmechanisms.
JAMIE (19:47):
It's me.
I am the, I am the ugly result.
REBECCA (19:51):
No, I just mean you, as a result, like, you have to
figure out something.
And as a kid, you make your owncoping mechanisms.
And as an adult, when you haveaccess to potentially more
harmful coping mechanisms, itrolls into that, like drinking,
or I don't know, gambling, or
JAMIE (20:12):
And here I was gonna say, and then you're in your thirties
and still sleeping with astuffed animal and you're like,
drinking, gambling.
Oh yeah.
That, no.
Yeah.
Hard drugs.
Yeah.
And I'm like stuffed animals.
they're all coping mechanisms,but Yes.
smoking, ah, I never eventhought of this.
(20:33):
I was a smoker for such a longtime.
Early in my teens, I started.
And I quit a very long time ago.
Hardest thing I've ever done,but so glad I did.
REBECCA (20:44):
But isn't nicotine an upper, though?
Like, did you get, like, thatleveling out with ADHD that you
do with, like, ADHD meds?
Because it's kind of, like, anupper?
did it help even you out?
JAMIE (20:56):
It always, it was always kind of a thing that I was like,
it was very, like, soothing andcalming to me.
I never really thought about itas, like, me coping with
depression or ADHD or anxiety oranything, but that's a thousand
percent what it was.
at least part of it.
(21:16):
I mean, and it's, like, reallyaddictive.
So,
REBECCA (21:20):
Well, and caffeine, like, high caffeine levels, I
was never a soda drinker ever,but then like I found a our lord
and savior Diet Pepsi and man ohman.
And then like Alani, AlaniEnergy Drinks, oh my god.
JAMIE (21:33):
Oh I need to try those.
I can't do Energy Drinks.
REBECCA (21:37):
Talk about fancy meth.
Well I could, but I couldn'teither, but again I, instead of
like ramping me up I feel likethey level me out and weirdly I,
like I feel like I can be tired.
after caffeine.
JAMIE (21:50):
Oh.
REBECCA (21:51):
And I don't know if that's because my brain is
finally getting what it needs,so it can fucking relax and be
like, okay, now we can feelsomething else besides crazy,
and like, now we can be tired.
I don't know if that's it, but.
JAMIE (22:02):
That's, Crazy.
That is crazy.
I also drank coffee since a veryyoung age.
REBECCA (22:08):
Yeah.
JAMIE (22:08):
So like, I
REBECCA (22:09):
used to do that with kids with ADHD though in,
elementary school.
They would give little kidscoffee.
My friend is a therapist andshe, this is like way back in
the early 90s.
They would give kids coffee.
Mm hmm.
Like ADHD kids to keep themlevel.
JAMIE (22:22):
That's true.
I always say that like, Coffeeaddiction is my, my dad's fault
because I feel like starting atage 11, my dad was like, here,
you want to try this coffee?
And of course it was like coffeewith a teeny bit of sugar and a
teeny bit of cream.
And I tried it and I was like,yeah, coffee.
Cause I was just like trying tobe a bad ass and I took a sip
(22:44):
and I was like, Oh God, this isawful.
But given.
It was also probably churchcoffee at that time.
Thankfully, my, my father becameespecially, later on, but like
my father became kind of acoffee connoisseur.
So that changed pretty quickly.
Then it was like, all right, nowwe're going to have a Keurig.
(23:06):
Now we're going to have aNespresso.
but oh man, pot coffee,
REBECCA (23:12):
church coffee, coffee.
That's great.
It is.
Ugh, church coffee is awful.
JAMIE (23:20):
I like how everything that's disgusting to you is just
gray.
It's just gray.
It
REBECCA (23:25):
is.
You can't tell me it doesn'ttaste gray.
That shit is disgusting.
Oh, it's,
JAMIE (23:28):
yeah, I'm like, thinking about it right now and I don't
like it.
I don't like it.
REBECCA (23:32):
I think the other thing too is like, the coping
mechanisms have come outphysically.
So, I'm not like, I used to cut,I, but like, I pick my, I pick
my cuticles, like, my neck getssuper tense and I have to like,
do this to unwind, I'll Crackyour
JAMIE (23:47):
knuckles.
I'm always Crack
REBECCA (23:48):
my knuckles.
Yeah, so there's like,physicality coping mechanisms
too, that, it's like, it'sspilling out and it has to go
somewhere, so, it spills overinto a physical situation.
JAMIE (24:00):
Yeah, and it's like a thing that you have to do,
Hypersexuality
REBECCA (24:05):
is another, like mechanism or complete
disinterest.
And so it goes both ways.
Wow.
This has been great.
JAMIE (24:19):
That's okay.
I love our, yeah.
I mean, it's just, we're just,we're just being honest and
we're just talking about whatit's like.
And we, we hope, and I thinkalso assume that, people
listening have had similarexperiences and maybe are
feeling a little more seen andheard.
(24:42):
And even like I said, like onthis show, like I even learned a
lot about myself, like even justtalking about smoking.
I was like, Oh wow.
I didn't even ever considerthat.
Me wanting to smoke cigarettesand me starting to smoke
cigarettes regularly and make ita habit like had anything to do
with my neurodivergence or notbeing properly a therapized or
(25:07):
medicated
REBECCA (25:10):
have you found that as you have become properly
therapized and medicated, thatI'm not gonna say they're gone,
because I know for me that someof those coping mechanisms or
disassociation needs are stillthere, but have you found
they've lessened, or you're ableto, like, power through a little
bit more?
JAMIE (25:26):
I think it depends on the day.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's true.
The week, the month, the year.
Like, this year has beenespecially, it's like, it's like
I'm, not tolerating it.
It's like I'm, I'm doing a goodjob.
The, like, the medication andthe therapy is helping a lot,
(25:49):
but it's helping with, like,whatever my baseline mental
health is.
And if my mental health
REBECCA (25:57):
You're staying a float?
Like, yeah.
Float.
Yeah.
Okay.
JAMIE (26:01):
And my, and it's like, but if There are other external
factors that are making thingsworse for me.
So like at work, like if work isreally stressful and my stress
levels are just raising andraising and raising, like
medication and therapy is likestill doing this much, it's like
putting, keeping me afloat abovelike this line very well, but
(26:23):
it's, it, it, it's not going todo anything because like the
stress is moving.
The line, and I'm just slowly,yeah.
REBECCA (26:36):
It's like you're drowning, you're still drowning
because you're still beingdragged down even though therapy
and medication are yourlifesaver.
JAMIE (26:42):
Yeah, they're like holding me up, but if, you know,
three more people, which is, youknow, let's say like work,
family, cats, are making mystress levels, you know, rise.
They're going to affect mymental health.
And if they jump on top of mewhile I'm being held up with
this life preserver, it'sprobably not going to hold all
(27:04):
four of us up.
So.
REBECCA (27:07):
No, that makes a ton of, I mean, that makes a ton of
sense.
Yeah.
that's true.
That makes sense.
Like, I'd like to get to apoint, ideally, where you can go
back to the drowning.
Like, you're not activelydrowning.
Like, you can kind of, I cankind of swim.
And to get to a point where Ican exist, but it feels a lot
like I swim and then say a floatand drown a little bit.
(27:27):
So it's kind of like, it'salways in a, in a, in a.
Changing state.
Like it hasn't been a steadyimprovement yet.
JAMIE (27:36):
Right.
And it's totally just like howyou said, you're like, and then
I'm drowning a little bit andthen I'm just drowning.
And that's life.
That's a little, yeah.
REBECCA (27:47):
A little water in your lungs.
JAMIE (27:48):
That's just the reality of it.
And I think our copingmechanisms are like a life
preserver too.
And.
I guess like when you're hangingout, why am I still going with
this life preserver metaphor
REBECCA (28:01):
because it's literally like medication and therapy.
I think personally have saved mylife,
JAMIE (28:05):
but even coping mechanisms.
Yeah.
Oh, same.
Yeah.
That's what I was going to sayearlier is I remember, I think I
started on antidepressants inlike 2020.
I had gone through probablyWell, maybe not the worst, but
one of the worst breakups of mylife was somebody who I was with
for a very long time.
(28:26):
And then the pandemic and all ofthose effects.
And so that's when I startedright before the pandemic is
when I started therapy, and I'mso glad I did.
But the moment that I took, likeI had to try obviously different
medications because that's howit works a lot of the time, but
the moment I even tried my firstantidepressant, which I was
(28:48):
actually severely allergic to.
That's another story.
It was like, I think even afterjust a week being on it, I was
like, Oh my God, like, it helpsagain, keep you at that baseline
where you're falling below andyou're drowning.
(29:08):
And some people I know are soagainst medication, but I really
wish people would understandthat.
It's not something that's gonnaalter you so much that
everything's just like fake androse colored.
It's literally something to helpyou, keep afloat.
REBECCA (29:29):
So if you have diabetes and you lack insulin, you take
insulin, right?
Mm hmm.
And people, obviously, you would take insulin.
But when you have depression,which is still a lack of
chemicals in your body, you Whywould you take medication?
Like you can just pray it awayor think positively.
You can't fucking thinkpositively at a medical
condition.
No.
You can't think positively orpray at diabetes.
You need to refill whateverchemical your deficit on and I
(29:53):
will fucking fight you if you'regonna tell me to think
positively through this friendwho I'm not naming right now.
Go fuck yourself.
JAMIE (30:01):
Yeah.
REBECCA (30:02):
Speaking of positivity, I have to go get my kid set up
for her therapy appointmentbecause when we come back I
really want to talk about howthis has affected kids too the
reason we had to take a break isbecause my daughter, who is
going to be 13 this next year,sees a therapist.
She's also on AuDHD.
And one of the things that wenoticed is she was developing
(30:25):
coping mechanisms that weren'tnecessarily helpful and were
actually pretty harmful.
So we figured setting her upnow, like, actually have
healthier habits than hermother.
and her father, let's be honest.
so she won't be having to havethis conversation with her best
friend in 20 years or with hertherapist.
She
JAMIE (30:44):
won't have to start a podcast, you know?
REBECCA (30:47):
Right.
She can hopefully be able tomove through the world in a way
that's less self destructive asher parents.
JAMIE (30:54):
I think we've talked about this before as well, but
if your parents go to therapy,You will likely have less of a
reason to go to therapy, or youcan have less of a reason to go
to therapy.
because think about it, yourparents raise you and also, you
know, the community that you'resurrounded by, I think.
(31:15):
and if they're mentally unwelland they're not getting help.
Then you're in a bad position tostart with.
and then if you suffer fromother mental health conditions
that just add to it and make itworse, then you're in a really
bad place.
So,
REBECCA (31:32):
My mother is a great fucking example.
because she also bitches beshopping and she also eats her
feelings.
JAMIE (31:39):
Yeah.
REBECCA (31:40):
Like, we are a, I learned it from watching you
kind of family.
JAMIE (31:43):
Oh, and the people pleasing dude too.
Like that's like, that can be soharmful.
Cause I know like my mom, likethat's my mom, like my mom.
And it's like, it's not even abad thing.
That's just like how I think,especially as women, we are
Trained to be.
I was just like, what?
(32:04):
Cosmic says, I play D& D becauseI can't afford therapy.
And like, yeah,
coping
mechanism.
Like all of my games are acoping mechanism.
Like, and I go to therapy.
I feel like
REBECCA (32:16):
it's that conflict avoidance though, which you are
not comfortable with usuallyuntil you go to therapy is
learning how to deal withconflict.
Yeah.
JAMIE (32:24):
Yeah.
But that's another thing is likemaking therapy accessible.
therapy and medication is soexpensive.
And then what if you don't havehealth insurance?
Why do you think that there areso many unmedicated, unhomed
people in the U S because ourhealthcare system is shit.
REBECCA (32:52):
And we decided to close down our mental health facility.
Looking at you, Portland,Phoenix, that actually help
people.
We are just let loose in thestreet because it's a temperate
climate.
They can survive
JAMIE (33:04):
But also it's like that like the unhomed like get blamed
even just get looked at acertain way and it's like I
REBECCA (33:12):
didn't mean there for I didn't mean they're fucking
gross sorry I meant it's fuckinggross that we shut it down and
just let go I didn't mean oh
JAMIE (33:18):
no no no I know I know oh yeah yeah I was just going off
on like a different tangent it'sjust like we act like it's their
fault and it's just, that's,that's not true.
It's like our system, like oursociety, our healthcare system,
for the majority, has causedthis.
REBECCA (33:39):
There's actually a place, an outreach program in
Portland for, for those peopleone of the very interesting
things I learned is that a lotof programs designed to help
those people are religiousbased.
They're not allowed to bringtheir pet or their partner, they
must be sober, and those are alot of conditions that people
can't meet or they have toparticipate in religious
activities.
And so they make these barriersto get that help extremely high
(34:02):
and not doable because I don'twant to come to a program
without my pet, like, I don'twant to leave my partner.
I mean, all these things that,that could provide them the
support they need.
These programs are designed tobe like, well, actually,
JAMIE (34:16):
again It's like, you know getting medication when you're
on medication.
It's like all of these barriersare in the way and They're
really in the way It's systemiclike the the barriers are in the
way like because people likedon't want to use funds and
spend money to help the peoplethat truly need to be helped.
(34:40):
So it's like, let's make this asdifficult as possible and put
all of these walls and barriersin the way.
and then, oh, oops, like, yes,you can't get medication then.
Or, oh, oops, you can't, I don'tknow.
come to this, shelter orsomething because you're not
gonna abide by X, Y, and Z.
And I get it.
Like, yes, there should be somethings that people there have to
(35:02):
abide by to keep everyone theresafe because everybody should
feel safe there.
REBECCA (35:06):
But it shouldn't be praying before a fucking dinner.
Like, let them eat their fuckingmeal one of the things, oh, the
other thing I was going to tellyou is that the one thing that
they've been seeing from thepandemic with little kids is
that little kids are no longerlike emotionally where they
should be.
They're reverting back to thingsthat make them feel safe.
Yeah.
(35:26):
So kids who normally wouldoutgrow X, Y, and Z are now
actually finding comfort inthat.
So things that you wouldn'tnecessarily think a kid would
play with like stuffed animals.
Like a
JAMIE (35:36):
stuffed animal when you're 30 something.
REBECCA (35:39):
Right.
Well, and pin in that, butthings that are quote, like
they're too old for, they'reactually going back into because
they find comfort in that.
And so they're reverting to aplace the last time that they
felt safe and they felt secure.
And as adults.
I think millennials are doingthe same thing with
Squishmallows and gaming and allthose times when we felt quote
(36:00):
unquote safe, aka we didn't haveto be responsible adults.
Those are our coping mechanisms.
JAMIE (36:07):
I did watch Law and Order a lot when I was younger, so
that's probably why that's oneof my, like, comfort shows.
but it's funny, too, because alot of my comfort shows are,
like, shows from when I was inmiddle school.
you know, so it's like Buffy,Veronica Mars, or high school, I
guess.
Even, even some of like the,like, even like Dawson's Creek,
I don't, I haven't watchedDawson's Creek in a long time,
(36:29):
but like, I have done a rewatchof Dawson's Creek before because
it was like comforting.
For some reason, it's the, Idon't even know how to unpack
this, but for some reason, it'sthose shows of, I don't know,
those like coming of age teenshows?
REBECCA (36:46):
Like their biggest problem is like, I'm gonna lose
my virginity.
Like that's their biggestproblem.
And mine is We need to make atax payment of 5, 000.
Like,
JAMIE (36:54):
let's see.
Mine's like, how am I going toafford more rent when I got laid
off?
Right.
And the job market's awful.
Also, fuck Dawson.
Let me just say that.
Everybody knows that.
Ugh.
but yeah, but it is.
It's shows like that that Itypically don't watch.
yearn for when I'm in a state ofeither crisis or major
(37:16):
discomfort or depression orstress, anxiety.
Like, it's that type of thingthat I typically want to put on.
REBECCA (37:26):
They're called cozy games for a reason.
JAMIE (37:28):
True.
Yeah.
Cozy games, cozy shows.
Like, yeah.
Let's put
REBECCA (37:36):
Marina has her like cozy blanket like her electric
blanket that she retreats tolike she's like I'm going to my
blanket now like it's a cozything and
JAMIE (37:43):
cozy pets you know yeah having your cat on your lap
REBECCA (37:47):
yes yeah cozy pets I have to say though, give it up
for pets.
Who are, coping mechanisms.
They, they nap with you?
They cuddle with, they are,
JAMIE (37:56):
oh yeah, for sure.
REBECCA (37:58):
The best.
I just said give it up for petsand I hate myself.
JAMIE (38:02):
Everybody give it up for pets! Applause.
I have two cats.
Detective Snoop and his girlFriday.
he honestly is like way toosmart for his own good and it's
really annoying, but it's fine.
Rebecca, how many pets do youhave?
REBECCA (38:23):
Three and a half.
I have two dogs, an ancient cat.
And a poodle who is mentallylike,
JAMIE (38:37):
Harper is the one you're giving a half.
I thought you were giving thehalf to the cat.
REBECCA (38:42):
No, the cat gets more than a half.
Like she was legitimately hit inthe head so she tries, but
JAMIE (38:50):
oh my God, let
REBECCA (38:51):
her decided to have like a nice life.
And we don't expect a whole lotout of her.
I want to figure out a nice wayto say, like, without putting
myself in a position where ifanyone from work saw this, I
would be fired, but certainsubstances have also been very
useful in.
Coping and disassociating, butalso, like.
Giving your brain a space to bequiet.
JAMIE (39:14):
Yeah.
REBECCA (39:15):
Like silencing everything.
Just
JAMIE (39:19):
that's.
A lot of my insomnia too.
REBECCA (39:22):
It's so noisy up there all the time.
JAMIE (39:25):
Definitely that is a major coping mechanism and yeah,
I mean, even just like CBDgummies, you know?
REBECCA (39:38):
Yes, that's what it is.
CBD, taking CBD gummies andnothing else.
CBD gummies work.
CBD gummies.
JAMIE (39:46):
Don't fire me.
My favorite is that you're like,How do I say this without
getting fired?
Like that was like your introwas like, I need to be careful
and not get fired.
How do I say this?
And it's like, don't even, don'tintro it like that.
But it's fine.
Part of my problem with insomniatoo is like my brain never shuts
(40:09):
up to begin with, but as soon asI, like my head hits the pillow,
my brain's like, you rememberthat bitch in third grade that
stole your pen and you hadwritten your name on all your
pens?
And then when you were like,Courtney, this is my pen.
Why'd you steal it?
And she said, that's my pen.
And you said, But it has my nameon it.
(40:30):
It says Jamie and she says, Ijust wrote your name on my pen.
I
REBECCA (40:36):
go back to everything I've ever said that has led me
to gallons of humiliation.
JAMIE (40:42):
Yeah.
I just
REBECCA (40:44):
lay in bed awake.
mortified at that one thing Idid that one time.
JAMIE (40:49):
Or I lie in bed awake thinking, What did you do today?
Jamie, what did you do today?
You did nothing today.
Are you proud of yourself?
Are you happy now?
You did nothing.
You better do somethingtomorrow.
You better get your shittogether and do something
tomorrow.
Rinse, repeat.
REBECCA (41:08):
Anxiety.
That's rolling down into kids aswell.
kids are having more and moreanxiety these days.
Again, the pandemic reallyfucked up so many people, but
especially kids.
And so kids are now learning howto do like breathing exercises
and self centering and the, whatare the five things I can see.
JAMIE (41:28):
And how to hide and keep quiet during a school shooting
incident.
REBECCA (41:33):
Oh boy.
That's a whole other thing too.
Getting them to help now insteadof being like, ah, they'll be
fine.
I think it at least gives them abetter chance than we have.
JAMIE (41:43):
Yeah.
No, I agree.
I
REBECCA (41:45):
do have to say though, Jamie, we are fucking adults,
and we go shopping forgroceries, and we feed our pets,
and we are alive.
Up until recently, we both had10 jobs.
We will have one again.
That wasn't your fault.
Like, we are both, we are bothgainfully employed, and doing
really well.
Like,
JAMIE (42:05):
We were Jamie until you fucked it up.
Fucked it up, Jamie.
But that you were gainfullyemployed.
REBECCA (42:11):
All the energy goes into that and then you don't
have any energy left to like dothe stuff that you need to do to
survive anywhere else.
Like it goes into performinglike high performance at work
and then mm-hmm The end of theday, you're so wiped out.
You have no choice but to like
JAMIE (42:25):
curl up in a ball and cuddle a squish melow and a pet.
And watch and
REBECCA (42:31):
watch Dolphin's Creek.
JAMIE (42:32):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm Exactly.
REBECCA (42:34):
I'll just say Being aware of it though, and this is
not me trying to like put a likea, a happy face on it, but at
least being aware of it andtalking about it instead of just
like Stopping it down andpretending everything's fine,
which is what I think a lot ofwhat our parents do and did.
I think talking about it,though, has helped.
And so, again, not, I'm notputting, like, a, a kumbaya bow
(42:56):
on it, but I think having you,and the more you and I have
talked about it, and growncloser, I think being able to
talk to you, like, when I'm inthat mood, It feels less lonely
that you're in this headspace,and so the need to disassociate
is, is less because you're notlike in that boat,
JAMIE (43:16):
there's a lot going on and especially that's what I was
gonna say earlier was just likeit's, it's really true that as
millennials, we, we haveexperienced just like an insane
amount of, bullshit.
You know?
there's just so much and then ontop of it like the pandemic
(43:38):
which was just definitely notthe most fucked up thing that
has been going on but that thatreally like I don't know put
like a a scar on everyone a markon everybody.
REBECCA (43:57):
By the way, Pokemon is hiring.
I keep getting, like, job postsfor Pokemon, and if anyone is in
the Washington area, they arehiring, and there was an editor
job,
JAMIE (44:07):
Is it, in house only?
I
REBECCA (44:08):
feel like you could, no, it's hybrid, but I feel like
you could convince them to makeit remote.
Honestly.
Can I?
Because I was looking at thejob, you could 100 percent do
that.
JAMIE (44:19):
Yeah.
Well, maybe.
I'm just
REBECCA (44:21):
saying.
Pokemon has a weirdly weird tonof jobs open that I keep
getting, like, alerts for.
JAMIE (44:28):
Yeah.
REBECCA (44:30):
Twitch is also weirdly hiring a lot of software
engineers and data engineers.
JAMIE (44:40):
I guess this is also a good opportunity to talk about
discord, Rebecca,
REBECCA (44:43):
With our Discord, we have a community where we have
set up several channels.
I have learned how to useDiscord, which I'm very proud of
myself we do have multipleplaces for job seekers.
So, we have one for jobopenings.
We have one to network.
We have ones where you can shareyour shit.
So like, share your portfolios.
Share what you've created, sharewhat you're working on, like
JAMIE (45:05):
share your artwork.
The more
REBECCA (45:06):
people we have, yes, the more people we have in this
network to kind of collaboratewith and, and connect with.
There might be something outthere that someone has or knows
of that's open, that's a perfectfit for you.
You never know.
but job openings for yourcompany that you know of, just
drop it in there.
We have our co working and body,body doubling channels.
So there's co working for chattypeople.
(45:29):
There's co working for those whojust want to like silently work
together.
but again, it's just a niceplace where you don't have to be
alone with your thoughts.
Again, just building thatcommunity of people to support
you to get through all the hardthings that, like, you don't
necessarily want to do.
JAMIE (45:42):
Yeah.
REBECCA (45:43):
And it has been helpful.
I cleaned my, my whole office atone point just to be on a call
with you.
JAMIE (45:49):
That's what helps me a ton.
And it's so funny because I keepfinding out to, like, how
helpful that is to so manypeople.
REBECCA (45:58):
Yes.
It really, really is.
Yeah, come join.
There is a link on our website.
You can join it.
And you don't, I mean, you don'thave to do a lot in there.
You don't have to do anything inthere.
You can lurk, but if you needpeople.
I cannot recommend it enough.
JAMIE (46:14):
And we play games in there too.
Like, we play games with eachother.
We disassociate with each other.
You know,
REBECCA (46:20):
I'm looking at our share your shit channel now and
we have work outfits.
We have cats.
We have video game clips.
We have, artwork.
We have pictures of food.
Someone edited a D& D styleepisode for a client, they're
sharing theirs.
It's just fun.
It's fun and silly and it's,yeah, makes you feel less
isolated.
JAMIE (46:41):
Play games with us
REBECCA (46:42):
one over there.
JAMIE (46:43):
And also we're very like, we're there, like that's why we
do this for the community.
We do this to, I don't know,give people a place to hang and
give people a place to getsupported, especially if you
REBECCA (46:54):
also.
My sister recently joined.
JAMIE (46:57):
Okay.
So she still hasn't made it tothe podcast.
She hasn't made it to Twitch,but she joined our discord.
So that's a big first step.
good job, Rachel.
I'm proud of you.
REBECCA (47:09):
Yeah.
And if you tell mom about this,I'm going to tell them about
that thing.
So don't.
JAMIE (47:15):
Now we're resorting to threats.
That's fine.
That's what, that's what we dohere.
It's a safe space after all.
but thank you so much forcoming.
I guess you guys
REBECCA (47:23):
until we,
JAMIE (47:24):
yeah, we'll see you in a couple of weeks.
REBECCA (47:26):
Happy
JAMIE (47:27):
new year.
Have a happy new year.
All right.
Bye everybody.
The Burnout Collective is hostedby me, Jamie Young.
REBECCA (47:35):
And me, Rebecca McCracken.
You can find all our episodes,plus show notes, at
burnoutcollective.
com.
JAMIE (47:42):
Follow the discord link on our website to join the
burnout community.
You can also find us on TikTokand Instagram.
REBECCA (47:48):
If you're interested in being a guest on a future
episode or have questions orfeedback.
You can email us at podcast atburnout collective.
com.
Remember that whole autism thing?
(00:01):
I did not know.
I thought you were serious.
I
JAMIE (00:05):
know.
I'm sorry.
REBECCA (00:06):
You could get me to do a lot of stuff.
I
JAMIE (00:07):
know.
I know.
Now the wheels in my head areturning.
No, but I would never.
I'm Jamie.
And I'm Rebecca.
Welcome to the BurnoutCollective.
REBECCA (00:22):
I Hello, everybody.
Welcome back.
Welcome to episode nine.
We
JAMIE (00:27):
did it.
I can't believe we've done itfor this long.
I'm like, I know I'm, I'mlegitimately shocked because we
don't, we stick with things.
REBECCA (00:41):
I know.
I was expecting to spend 300 ona microphone and a headphones
and then just put them in acloset and three episodes and
we're at nine.
JAMIE (00:51):
I know.
That's great.
REBECCA (00:53):
That's great.
JAMIE (00:55):
Today
REBECCA (00:56):
into our topic.
Right.
JAMIE (00:57):
Mm hmm.
It's wellness.
Our topic is,
REBECCA (01:04):
well,
JAMIE (01:06):
coping, coping mechanisms,
REBECCA (01:09):
coping mechanism.
JAMIE (01:09):
Yeah.
Meds are wellness for sure.
Yeah, we can talk about it.
We can talk about it.
REBECCA (01:17):
meds are wellness in that we keep everyone alive
around us when we medicate.
No, it's not necessarilywellness for us.
It's wellness for you.
for everyone who we interactwith on a daily basis.
JAMIE (01:28):
Yeah, I medicate specifically for Rob Lasser.
Like, I specifically medicatefor him, so I don't murder him.
So, that's why I medicate.
Rebecca, why do you, why do youmedicate?
It's like one of thosecommercials, like, I medicate
for, for my kids.
REBECCA (01:46):
Okay, so this is a complete tangent, but I have to
tell you, there is a diabetescommercial now, where they're
all singing about, like, thisdiabetes medication, and it's
super happy.
But like one of the, you know,like they do that really fast
talking about the side effects.
One of them is like theinfection.
JAMIE (02:03):
Oh,
REBECCA (02:03):
no, an infection in your taint.
Oh, like what?
And it's horrific.
And every time it comes on, I'mjust doing nothing and not
paying attention.
And then that part comes on andI did a
JAMIE (02:14):
taint infection, if you will.
REBECCA (02:17):
Yeah, and it's like, Oh my god, they said it out loud on
TV.
And it's just What a hor—, like,who's gonna see that and be
like, yes, that medication forWait, they
JAMIE (02:25):
said taint infection?
REBECCA (02:28):
No, they said like the, the, what's the word?
The perineum.
So a rare but serious infectionof the perineum and genital area
can occur in people taking sodioglucose cotransporter 2
inhibitors, a class of diabetesmedication.
And they said all those words atonce.
A rare but serious infection.
JAMIE (02:47):
Oh, God.
REBECCA (02:48):
And I even think they said life threatening.
JAMIE (02:51):
Oh, no.
REBECCA (02:53):
I know.
So, sorry to tangent, but Iheard I mean,
JAMIE (02:56):
it was worth
REBECCA (02:57):
it.
JAMIE (02:58):
Absolutely worth it.
REBECCA (03:00):
But I medicate because everyone in my family is lacking
those chemicals in their brainthat allow them to function like
normal people.
and I have that genetic trait aswell.
JAMIE (03:15):
Well.
Medication.
Don't get it.
What is it?
REBECCA (03:19):
If you can't make your own serotonin, store bought is
fine?
That one?
Is that what they say?
JAMIE (03:24):
I don't know.
Is that what you say?
That's what
REBECCA (03:27):
that is.
Why do you medicate?
JAMIE (03:29):
I medicate to function.
I medicate honestly to likekeeping myself and my cats
alive.
it is, it's literally self carefor me.
And it's the same with therapy,meds.
Remember when I, I, I'vestruggled with many things.
(03:50):
Most of my life, like startingat a young age, like insomnia,
depression, anxiety.
I feel like my anxiety when Iwas younger was not that bad.
I think now that I've gottenolder, my anxiety has just
gotten worse.
REBECCA (04:07):
That's the kicker though.
As women get older, thosesymptoms like ramp up.
Yeah.
So fucking unfair.
JAMIE (04:15):
Yeah.
And I mean, same with ADHD.
Yeah.
Like, I mean, I definitely canlike, look back and see that I
did have ADHD.
My experiences with people who Iknew had ADHD back then, it was
mostly boys who were very justhyperactive and would have like
(04:39):
verbal, physical, like outburstsand stuff like that.
And, that wasn't me.
So although I, I suspected thatI had ADD back then, it
definitely didn't seem asprominent as it is now, for
sure.
REBECCA (04:52):
Well, it was in the eighties too, when.
ADHD was only being attributedto boys, and it was those very
specific, like, verbal, physicaltics.
But girls, because we'reconditioned to mask and be more
socially, quote, acceptable, itwas much easier for us to kind
of internalize it, but it wouldjust come out in other really
(05:13):
harmful ways.
JAMIE (05:14):
Yeah.
But, yeah, mostly just,distracted and always just Okay,
what can I do next?
What can I do while I'm doingthis thing?
And also I just feel like mybrain was so, I read so much
when I was a kid and I likedon't read now and I always
attributed it to being an editorand like I read all day long so
(05:38):
I don't really want to read forpleasure anymore even, which is
so sad! Again, that's anotherlike You know, the man's taken
away my creativity and, anoutlet for that.
REBECCA (05:53):
but you're making money off a hyper fixation though,
which I think is reallyinteresting.
Cause I was also the same.
I read a lot and now I get paidto do that.
JAMIE (06:02):
That's true.
Yeah.
REBECCA (06:03):
and let's not forget our favorite part about being
editors.
Jamie,
JAMIE (06:07):
we tell people what to do and we tell them they're wrong
and we're right.
And yeah, that's the best.
That's the best part of life,Rebecca.
Absolutely.
REBECCA (06:18):
I know.
Honestly, it's so good.
As we get older, men grow out ofA DHD, and women basically our
ability to mask and functionstarts to break down, and we
just become, especially whenparents feral,
JAMIE (06:33):
we become feral.
Feral,
REBECCA (06:35):
yes.
Legitimately.
Did your mom ever catch thatsomething was maybe different or
did you get more in trouble forthat when you were younger?
JAMIE (06:46):
I honestly think that.
My parents were, were surprisedwhen I was diagnosed with ADHD,
which was only, four years ago?
but it definitely has gottenworse.
But the thing is, because itwas, it had been so long of me
dealing with these things, evenlike depression and, insomnia
(07:08):
that I had.
my brain, on top of masking,like my brain also trained
myself to have workarounds tolike MacGyver my mental health
that I wasn't being treated forproperly.
so I had some things in placethat, that like were to me more
like a Band Aid, you know, likeyou had duct tape and a
(07:30):
paperclip and you were like, nowdepression's not that bad, you
know, now you can sleep a littlebit.
REBECCA (07:39):
My mother was not surprised as she looked at my
Star Trek engineer, a father.
And she took, she took me to thedoctor when I was super little
and was like, something is wrongand the doctor said, and this is
a direct quote.
And again, because it was the80s and autism was only studied
in boys.
He said, what do you want her tolike, sit in a corner and rock
(08:02):
and drool.
She's just one of those pain inthe ass kids.
So no one was surprised and noone got the help they needed
until
JAMIE (08:12):
Yeah.
I think that's happening for alot of millennials.
We were diagnosed just a fewyears ago
REBECCA (08:17):
I think a lot of this conversation came out of those
years of us finding our owncoping mechanisms before there
was therapy and or medication.
JAMIE (08:26):
Truly.
That, like, wasn't a thing.
REBECCA (08:30):
I remember before I was like, correctly medicated, it
was during the pandemic andtreatment.
I was sitting on my couch, andyou know those emails where,
like, we found your emailonline, and your password, and
we've been able to hack yourwebcam, pay us this much money,
right?
And I just laughed because Iknew that all I've been doing
(08:50):
for months now is sitting on mycouch eating Doritos And I was
like, fucking send it.
Do it.
I don't care what it is you'regonna do.
I feel like
JAMIE (08:55):
I dare you.
I dare you.
REBECCA (08:59):
Crying into a bag of Doritos.
Oh no.
That's how I knew it was reallybad.
JAMIE (09:06):
That's one of my favorites.
Rebecca's story is certainly.
REBECCA (09:11):
But that was one of my coping mechanisms.
That coping mechanism was justeating for the dopamine.
So coping mechanisms.
So Jamie, why do people docoping mechanisms aside from
existing?
Like being able to exist?
What's the point?
JAMIE (09:33):
To disassociate?
REBECCA (09:35):
To disassociate! My favorite.
JAMIE (09:39):
That's why I play games.
That's why I watch Law and OrderSVU over and over and over
again.
It's comforting.
REBECCA (09:51):
Because your brain doesn't have to do anything.
It's basically like screensavermode and your soul leaves your
body.
You don't have to exist for awhile.
It's comforting.
Great.
JAMIE (10:01):
I need something to just literally get me out of my head
and focus on something.
Like, that's why we play gameslike Farming Sins, right?
REBECCA (10:10):
Because I don't want to fucking clean but I sure as shit
can dig holes with a pretend hoeon a video game for hours at a
time.
JAMIE (10:20):
Rebecca, don't sell yourself short.
You a real hoe.
You a real one.
REBECCA (10:25):
Thank you.
But like, I can't do chores, butI can do pretend chores.
I can do real chores, but I willdo pretend chores all day long.
JAMIE (10:32):
Animal Crossing, Stardew Valley, Moonstone Island, and
recently, Sons of the Forest,which is my favorite thing
Rebecca plays with us.
I was like, Hey, you should getthis and play with me, and I was
like certain she would look atit and be like, absolutely not.
I think that's the problem.
(10:53):
I could really, I could easilytake advantage of you.
I feel like you just trust metoo much, Rebecca.
REBECCA (10:58):
I, I do.
Like that one game, there wasone game where like, yeah, I
think it's just like a videogame about taking care of
yourself in a game.
And I bought it.
And the next thing I know,there's like some horrific anime
thing behind me going like, whydon't you love me?
And I'm screaming every fiveminutes.
JAMIE (11:16):
The game is, the game is called My Side, by the way, M I
S I D E and You're like 15, 20minutes in, and all of a sudden
you go, I think there was blood.
And all of a sudden you go, Isthis a horror game?
And I was like, yeah.
And you're like, didn't knowthat.
(11:39):
You told me it was about selfcare.
I'm pretty sure I was beingpretty sardonic when I was like,
self care.
REBECCA (11:45):
Yeah.
Remember that whole autismthing?
I did not know.
I thought you were serious.
I
JAMIE (11:50):
know.
I'm sorry.
REBECCA (11:51):
You could get me to do a lot of stuff.
I
JAMIE (11:52):
know.
I know.
Now the wheels in my head areturning.
No, but I would never.
REBECCA (11:58):
That's the difference though between disassociating
and a hobby.
Like a hobby you do for fun andan activity to disassociate
means you're not even reallypresent there.
You're just like an autopilot.
JAMIE (12:12):
And that's what we have to do.
it's just like putting yourselfin recovery mode, or like, safe
mode.
That's why, like, for thelongest time, after work, I
would immediately end work.
And jump into gaming like withmy friends or by myself,
sometimes I couldn't even gamewith friends and that would be
(12:33):
like, I think depressioncreeping in because with
depression, you know, like, youdon't, or at least I don't, my
depression displays as like, Idon't want to be around anybody.
That's just what I had to do tobasically survive.
REBECCA (12:49):
And it's the survival thing too.
It's.
I can either kill myself or Ican just leave my body for a
while.
JAMIE (12:57):
I feel like we probably shouldn't say that
REBECCA (12:59):
sorry.
JAMIE (13:00):
No.
REBECCA (13:01):
Not sorry.
Cause really that's where wewere for a long time, The
downside, I was going to say, ofdisassociative activities,
though, is some of them arecompletely benign, like playing
games, but then some of them areactively harmful to you and are
not in your best interest.
And Even though they feel goodin the moment, like, I'll just
(13:28):
say it for me.
JAMIE (13:29):
Heroin.
Oh.
REBECCA (13:31):
Oh yeah, no, that too.
But, bitches be shopping.
And shoving.
Yep.
All the shopping.
All the money.
JAMIE (13:38):
Yeah.
same.
I definitely shop to cope.
sometimes it's not even very, Idon't know, it's not like a
conscious thing.
REBECCA (13:51):
Not to go back to the pandemic, but there was very
little to look forward to.
Yeah, just full disclosure.
My daughter at the verybeginning had to be
hospitalized.
Like she.
Almost died.
She got so sick and that fuckedwith me for a long time.
And so Everything wasterrifying.
And that little bit of like,something to look forward to and
(14:13):
something to like be excitedabout.
Like I latched onto that.
and I think that's when thingsreally ramped up.
JAMIE (14:20):
Yeah.
That messed a lot of things up.
I keep thinking.
And now I don't remember what mytrain of thought was.
REBECCA (14:27):
disassociating that can be harmful.
Stop to feel things.
you have sleeping on here, likethings like sleeping.
JAMIE (14:34):
Oh yeah.
So
REBECCA (14:35):
if you like good, but also oversleeping can actually
not be great for you either.
JAMIE (14:40):
Oh yeah.
Or when you like, what is itcalled?
What's it called when you'relike making yourself stay awake?
it's like revenge amphetamine.
basically meth.
No,
REBECCA (14:54):
I know what you're talking about though.
When like you're, I'm notfucking going to sleep.
Cause this is the only time Ihave to myself at night or I'm
going to do the thing.
JAMIE (15:02):
And I noticed that more and more.
And it's so funny because I'mactually very conscious about a
lot of my mental health, things,I'm very conscious of
everything.
So like, even in therapy, I'llbe talking to my therapist and
I'll be like, yeah, and I didthis and I know like, I
recognize that that's harmfuland that's not a good response.
(15:23):
but I mean, it doesn't matter.
Like that's still going to be myresponse.
REBECCA (15:27):
But that's the problem with neurodivergence though, is
we can intelligently andobjectively spot like what our
issues are, but actually puttingthings into practice.
We can intelligently talk aboutour own whatever all day long,
but it's the actual, like,changing things and putting
those into practice that wecan't do.
(15:49):
Which makes it very difficult togo to therapy and, like, be
successful.
Yeah.
JAMIE (15:55):
That's why I hate it, too, that, like, Getting,
getting medication, gettingdiagnosed, first of all, can be
so difficult.
and it can be just so drainingtoo.
And like getting diagnosed withanything, like I'm referring to
ADHD, but it could be anything.
it's such, it can be such along, frustrating process.
(16:20):
And, like, once, like, let'ssay, then you're put on meds for
ADHD and you're prescribed medsand some of them, you know,
like, ADHD meds are typically,not always, but typically
controlled substances and, youknow, I can't get those meds
delivered.
I have to physically go and getthe meds and show them my ID,
(16:41):
which to me, it's so hard for usto do these tasks.
And so it's taking everything inus to be able to.
get our medication.
So if something goes wrong andlike, even with like other, not
ailments, but like other mentalhealth conditions, like add
depression to ADHD.
(17:02):
And it's like, I'm toodepressed.
I'm not leaving my house.
And then I'm like.
REBECCA (17:06):
My fancy meth delivered.
Yeah.
My fancy meth needs to bedelivered to my house.
JAMIE (17:11):
Give me my fancy meth.
give me my, give me my legalmeth.
Goddammit.
yeah,
REBECCA (17:20):
But again, it's those that is those Disassociations
and like you have to hypeyourself up to go do it Don't
feel better until you get themeds and it's just a vicious
fucking cycle
JAMIE (17:30):
Yeah And I'll like I'll go days with that's what I did
just recently kind of is likeI'll go days Without meds and
I'll be like, oh, I don't havemeds Just gotta go get them Just
got to get up and go outside andgo get them and it's the hardest
thing sometimes
REBECCA (17:49):
Not throwing you under the bus, but as someone who
hasn't like used them for a longtime I've noticed that when
you're like, why am I crying?
I don't know and the answer islike did you take your meds?
You're like, oh no becauseyou're not used to it.
And so yeah used to itInternalized and just feeling
like shit all the time.
Yeah that You don't ever thinkit could be something that's not
you, and that's not an internalissue.
(18:11):
It's just you haven't taken yourmeds.
JAMIE (18:13):
It's very true.
I mean, and I also think that'sbecause it's like us.
And like, you know me so well,so you can recognize that.
Well,
REBECCA (18:20):
no, but I haven't had my ADHD meds in like a week
because I'm off work and I'mlike, Why do I have a migraine
and why do I want to killeverybody?
JAMIE (18:29):
And that's crazy.
Like I don't, I, I will go acouple of days here or there,
but, overall I can't do itbecause it's miserable.
And it's just like, I rememberit was the, so before, obviously
since I'm more recently on, ADHDmedication, I went on
antidepressants for the firsttime.
And again, literally.
(18:51):
have been suffering fromdepression and major depression,
like MDD, like since, I mean, atleast a teenager, and I went
that long even without going totherapy because back then, you
know, it's like, you're younger.
It's kind of like up to yourparents to send you to therapy.
But back in like the ninetiesand even the early aughts, you
(19:12):
know, that wasn't, a big thing.
I mean, just like ADHD wasn't ahuge thing, especially for,
girls.
so that's just not something, itwasn't very typical for people
to say, I need to send my kid totherapy or for your child to
say, like, I think I might needto go to therapy or I want to go
(19:33):
to therapy.
That just like, wasn't in atleast where I was, like in my
family, that just wasn't in thevocabulary, you know?
REBECCA (19:43):
And the ugly result of that is.
You make your own copingmechanisms.
JAMIE (19:47):
It's me.
I am the, I am the ugly result.
REBECCA (19:51):
No, I just mean you, as a result, like, you have to
figure out something.
And as a kid, you make your owncoping mechanisms.
And as an adult, when you haveaccess to potentially more
harmful coping mechanisms, itrolls into that, like drinking,
or I don't know, gambling, or
JAMIE (20:12):
And here I was gonna say, and then you're in your thirties
and still sleeping with astuffed animal and you're like,
drinking, gambling.
Oh yeah.
That, no.
Yeah.
Hard drugs.
Yeah.
And I'm like stuffed animals.
they're all coping mechanisms,but Yes.
smoking, ah, I never eventhought of this.
(20:33):
I was a smoker for such a longtime.
Early in my teens, I started.
And I quit a very long time ago.
Hardest thing I've ever done,but so glad I did.
REBECCA (20:44):
But isn't nicotine an upper, though?
Like, did you get, like, thatleveling out with ADHD that you
do with, like, ADHD meds?
Because it's kind of, like, anupper?
did it help even you out?
JAMIE (20:56):
It always, it was always kind of a thing that I was like,
it was very, like, soothing andcalming to me.
I never really thought about itas, like, me coping with
depression or ADHD or anxiety oranything, but that's a thousand
percent what it was.
at least part of it.
(21:16):
I mean, and it's, like, reallyaddictive.
So,
REBECCA (21:20):
Well, and caffeine, like, high caffeine levels, I
was never a soda drinker ever,but then like I found a our lord
and savior Diet Pepsi and man ohman.
And then like Alani, AlaniEnergy Drinks, oh my god.
JAMIE (21:33):
Oh I need to try those.
I can't do Energy Drinks.
REBECCA (21:37):
Talk about fancy meth.
Well I could, but I couldn'teither, but again I, instead of
like ramping me up I feel likethey level me out and weirdly I,
like I feel like I can be tired.
after caffeine.
JAMIE (21:50):
Oh.
REBECCA (21:51):
And I don't know if that's because my brain is
finally getting what it needs,so it can fucking relax and be
like, okay, now we can feelsomething else besides crazy,
and like, now we can be tired.
I don't know if that's it, but.
JAMIE (22:02):
That's, Crazy.
That is crazy.
I also drank coffee since a veryyoung age.
REBECCA (22:08):
Yeah.
JAMIE (22:08):
So like, I
REBECCA (22:09):
used to do that with kids with ADHD though in,
elementary school.
They would give little kidscoffee.
My friend is a therapist andshe, this is like way back in
the early 90s.
They would give kids coffee.
Mm hmm.
Like ADHD kids to keep themlevel.
JAMIE (22:22):
That's true.
I always say that like, Coffeeaddiction is my, my dad's fault
because I feel like starting atage 11, my dad was like, here,
you want to try this coffee?
And of course it was like coffeewith a teeny bit of sugar and a
teeny bit of cream.
And I tried it and I was like,yeah, coffee.
Cause I was just like trying tobe a bad ass and I took a sip
(22:44):
and I was like, Oh God, this isawful.
But given.
It was also probably churchcoffee at that time.
Thankfully, my, my father becameespecially, later on, but like
my father became kind of acoffee connoisseur.
So that changed pretty quickly.
Then it was like, all right, nowwe're going to have a Keurig.
(23:06):
Now we're going to have aNespresso.
but oh man, pot coffee,
REBECCA (23:12):
church coffee, coffee.
That's great.
It is.
Ugh, church coffee is awful.
JAMIE (23:20):
I like how everything that's disgusting to you is just
gray.
It's just gray.
It
REBECCA (23:25):
is.
You can't tell me it doesn'ttaste gray.
That shit is disgusting.
Oh, it's,
JAMIE (23:28):
yeah, I'm like, thinking about it right now and I don't
like it.
I don't like it.
REBECCA (23:32):
I think the other thing too is like, the coping
mechanisms have come outphysically.
So, I'm not like, I used to cut,I, but like, I pick my, I pick
my cuticles, like, my neck getssuper tense and I have to like,
do this to unwind, I'll Crackyour
JAMIE (23:47):
knuckles.
I'm always Crack
REBECCA (23:48):
my knuckles.
Yeah, so there's like,physicality coping mechanisms
too, that, it's like, it'sspilling out and it has to go
somewhere, so, it spills overinto a physical situation.
JAMIE (24:00):
Yeah, and it's like a thing that you have to do,
Hypersexuality
REBECCA (24:05):
is another, like mechanism or complete
disinterest.
And so it goes both ways.
Wow.
This has been great.
JAMIE (24:19):
That's okay.
I love our, yeah.
I mean, it's just, we're just,we're just being honest and
we're just talking about whatit's like.
And we, we hope, and I thinkalso assume that, people
listening have had similarexperiences and maybe are
feeling a little more seen andheard.
(24:42):
And even like I said, like onthis show, like I even learned a
lot about myself, like even justtalking about smoking.
I was like, Oh wow.
I didn't even ever considerthat.
Me wanting to smoke cigarettesand me starting to smoke
cigarettes regularly and make ita habit like had anything to do
with my neurodivergence or notbeing properly a therapized or
(25:07):
medicated
REBECCA (25:10):
have you found that as you have become properly
therapized and medicated, thatI'm not gonna say they're gone,
because I know for me that someof those coping mechanisms or
disassociation needs are stillthere, but have you found
they've lessened, or you're ableto, like, power through a little
bit more?
JAMIE (25:26):
I think it depends on the day.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's true.
The week, the month, the year.
Like, this year has beenespecially, it's like, it's like
I'm, not tolerating it.
It's like I'm, I'm doing a goodjob.
The, like, the medication andthe therapy is helping a lot,
(25:49):
but it's helping with, like,whatever my baseline mental
health is.
And if my mental health
REBECCA (25:57):
You're staying a float?
Like, yeah.
Float.
Yeah.
Okay.
JAMIE (26:01):
And my, and it's like, but if There are other external
factors that are making thingsworse for me.
So like at work, like if work isreally stressful and my stress
levels are just raising andraising and raising, like
medication and therapy is likestill doing this much, it's like
putting, keeping me afloat abovelike this line very well, but
(26:23):
it's, it, it, it's not going todo anything because like the
stress is moving.
The line, and I'm just slowly,yeah.
REBECCA (26:36):
It's like you're drowning, you're still drowning
because you're still beingdragged down even though therapy
and medication are yourlifesaver.
JAMIE (26:42):
Yeah, they're like holding me up, but if, you know,
three more people, which is, youknow, let's say like work,
family, cats, are making mystress levels, you know, rise.
They're going to affect mymental health.
And if they jump on top of mewhile I'm being held up with
this life preserver, it'sprobably not going to hold all
(27:04):
four of us up.
So.
REBECCA (27:07):
No, that makes a ton of, I mean, that makes a ton of
sense.
Yeah.
that's true.
That makes sense.
Like, I'd like to get to apoint, ideally, where you can go
back to the drowning.
Like, you're not activelydrowning.
Like, you can kind of, I cankind of swim.
And to get to a point where Ican exist, but it feels a lot
like I swim and then say a floatand drown a little bit.
(27:27):
So it's kind of like, it'salways in a, in a, in a.
Changing state.
Like it hasn't been a steadyimprovement yet.
JAMIE (27:36):
Right.
And it's totally just like howyou said, you're like, and then
I'm drowning a little bit andthen I'm just drowning.
And that's life.
That's a little, yeah.
REBECCA (27:47):
A little water in your lungs.
JAMIE (27:48):
That's just the reality of it.
And I think our copingmechanisms are like a life
preserver too.
And.
I guess like when you're hangingout, why am I still going with
this life preserver metaphor
REBECCA (28:01):
because it's literally like medication and therapy.
I think personally have saved mylife,
JAMIE (28:05):
but even coping mechanisms.
Yeah.
Oh, same.
Yeah.
That's what I was going to sayearlier is I remember, I think I
started on antidepressants inlike 2020.
I had gone through probablyWell, maybe not the worst, but
one of the worst breakups of mylife was somebody who I was with
for a very long time.
(28:26):
And then the pandemic and all ofthose effects.
And so that's when I startedright before the pandemic is
when I started therapy, and I'mso glad I did.
But the moment that I took, likeI had to try obviously different
medications because that's howit works a lot of the time, but
the moment I even tried my firstantidepressant, which I was
(28:48):
actually severely allergic to.
That's another story.
It was like, I think even afterjust a week being on it, I was
like, Oh my God, like, it helpsagain, keep you at that baseline
where you're falling below andyou're drowning.
(29:08):
And some people I know are soagainst medication, but I really
wish people would understandthat.
It's not something that's gonnaalter you so much that
everything's just like fake androse colored.
It's literally something to helpyou, keep afloat.
REBECCA (29:29):
So if you have diabetes and you lack insulin, you take
insulin, right?
Mm hmm.
And people, obviously, you would take insulin.
But when you have depression,which is still a lack of
chemicals in your body, you Whywould you take medication?
Like you can just pray it awayor think positively.
You can't fucking thinkpositively at a medical
condition.
No.
You can't think positively orpray at diabetes.
You need to refill whateverchemical your deficit on and I
(29:53):
will fucking fight you if you'regonna tell me to think
positively through this friendwho I'm not naming right now.
Go fuck yourself.
JAMIE (30:01):
Yeah.
REBECCA (30:02):
Speaking of positivity, I have to go get my kid set up
for her therapy appointmentbecause when we come back I
really want to talk about howthis has affected kids too the
reason we had to take a break isbecause my daughter, who is
going to be 13 this next year,sees a therapist.
She's also on AuDHD.
And one of the things that wenoticed is she was developing
(30:25):
coping mechanisms that weren'tnecessarily helpful and were
actually pretty harmful.
So we figured setting her upnow, like, actually have
healthier habits than hermother.
and her father, let's be honest.
so she won't be having to havethis conversation with her best
friend in 20 years or with hertherapist.
She
JAMIE (30:44):
won't have to start a podcast, you know?
REBECCA (30:47):
Right.
She can hopefully be able tomove through the world in a way
that's less self destructive asher parents.
JAMIE (30:54):
I think we've talked about this before as well, but
if your parents go to therapy,You will likely have less of a
reason to go to therapy, or youcan have less of a reason to go
to therapy.
because think about it, yourparents raise you and also, you
know, the community that you'resurrounded by, I think.
(31:15):
and if they're mentally unwelland they're not getting help.
Then you're in a bad position tostart with.
and then if you suffer fromother mental health conditions
that just add to it and make itworse, then you're in a really
bad place.
So,
REBECCA (31:32):
My mother is a great fucking example.
because she also bitches beshopping and she also eats her
feelings.
JAMIE (31:39):
Yeah.
REBECCA (31:40):
Like, we are a, I learned it from watching you
kind of family.
JAMIE (31:43):
Oh, and the people pleasing dude too.
Like that's like, that can be soharmful.
Cause I know like my mom, likethat's my mom, like my mom.
And it's like, it's not even abad thing.
That's just like how I think,especially as women, we are
Trained to be.
I was just like, what?
(32:04):
Cosmic says, I play D& D becauseI can't afford therapy.
And like, yeah,
coping
mechanism.
Like all of my games are acoping mechanism.
Like, and I go to therapy.
I feel like
REBECCA (32:16):
it's that conflict avoidance though, which you are
not comfortable with usuallyuntil you go to therapy is
learning how to deal withconflict.
Yeah.
JAMIE (32:24):
Yeah.
But that's another thing is likemaking therapy accessible.
therapy and medication is soexpensive.
And then what if you don't havehealth insurance?
Why do you think that there areso many unmedicated, unhomed
people in the U S because ourhealthcare system is shit.
REBECCA (32:52):
And we decided to close down our mental health facility.
Looking at you, Portland,Phoenix, that actually help
people.
We are just let loose in thestreet because it's a temperate
climate.
They can survive
JAMIE (33:04):
But also it's like that like the unhomed like get blamed
even just get looked at acertain way and it's like I
REBECCA (33:12):
didn't mean there for I didn't mean they're fucking
gross sorry I meant it's fuckinggross that we shut it down and
just let go I didn't mean oh
JAMIE (33:18):
no no no I know I know oh yeah yeah I was just going off
on like a different tangent it'sjust like we act like it's their
fault and it's just, that's,that's not true.
It's like our system, like oursociety, our healthcare system,
for the majority, has causedthis.
REBECCA (33:39):
There's actually a place, an outreach program in
Portland for, for those peopleone of the very interesting
things I learned is that a lotof programs designed to help
those people are religiousbased.
They're not allowed to bringtheir pet or their partner, they
must be sober, and those are alot of conditions that people
can't meet or they have toparticipate in religious
activities.
And so they make these barriersto get that help extremely high
(34:02):
and not doable because I don'twant to come to a program
without my pet, like, I don'twant to leave my partner.
I mean, all these things that,that could provide them the
support they need.
These programs are designed tobe like, well, actually,
JAMIE (34:16):
again It's like, you know getting medication when you're
on medication.
It's like all of these barriersare in the way and They're
really in the way It's systemiclike the the barriers are in the
way like because people likedon't want to use funds and
spend money to help the peoplethat truly need to be helped.
(34:40):
So it's like, let's make this asdifficult as possible and put
all of these walls and barriersin the way.
and then, oh, oops, like, yes,you can't get medication then.
Or, oh, oops, you can't, I don'tknow.
come to this, shelter orsomething because you're not
gonna abide by X, Y, and Z.
And I get it.
Like, yes, there should be somethings that people there have to
(35:02):
abide by to keep everyone theresafe because everybody should
feel safe there.
REBECCA (35:06):
But it shouldn't be praying before a fucking dinner.
Like, let them eat their fuckingmeal one of the things, oh, the
other thing I was going to tellyou is that the one thing that
they've been seeing from thepandemic with little kids is
that little kids are no longerlike emotionally where they
should be.
They're reverting back to thingsthat make them feel safe.
Yeah.
(35:26):
So kids who normally wouldoutgrow X, Y, and Z are now
actually finding comfort inthat.
So things that you wouldn'tnecessarily think a kid would
play with like stuffed animals.
Like a
JAMIE (35:36):
stuffed animal when you're 30 something.
REBECCA (35:39):
Right.
Well, and pin in that, butthings that are quote, like
they're too old for, they'reactually going back into because
they find comfort in that.
And so they're reverting to aplace the last time that they
felt safe and they felt secure.
And as adults.
I think millennials are doingthe same thing with
Squishmallows and gaming and allthose times when we felt quote
(36:00):
unquote safe, aka we didn't haveto be responsible adults.
Those are our coping mechanisms.
JAMIE (36:07):
I did watch Law and Order a lot when I was younger, so
that's probably why that's oneof my, like, comfort shows.
but it's funny, too, because alot of my comfort shows are,
like, shows from when I was inmiddle school.
you know, so it's like Buffy,Veronica Mars, or high school, I
guess.
Even, even some of like the,like, even like Dawson's Creek,
I don't, I haven't watchedDawson's Creek in a long time,
(36:29):
but like, I have done a rewatchof Dawson's Creek before because
it was like comforting.
For some reason, it's the, Idon't even know how to unpack
this, but for some reason, it'sthose shows of, I don't know,
those like coming of age teenshows?
REBECCA (36:46):
Like their biggest problem is like, I'm gonna lose
my virginity.
Like that's their biggestproblem.
And mine is We need to make atax payment of 5, 000.
Like,
JAMIE (36:54):
let's see.
Mine's like, how am I going toafford more rent when I got laid
off?
Right.
And the job market's awful.
Also, fuck Dawson.
Let me just say that.
Everybody knows that.
Ugh.
but yeah, but it is.
It's shows like that that Itypically don't watch.
yearn for when I'm in a state ofeither crisis or major
(37:16):
discomfort or depression orstress, anxiety.
Like, it's that type of thingthat I typically want to put on.
REBECCA (37:26):
They're called cozy games for a reason.
JAMIE (37:28):
True.
Yeah.
Cozy games, cozy shows.
Like, yeah.
Let's put
REBECCA (37:36):
Marina has her like cozy blanket like her electric
blanket that she retreats tolike she's like I'm going to my
blanket now like it's a cozything and
JAMIE (37:43):
cozy pets you know yeah having your cat on your lap
REBECCA (37:47):
yes yeah cozy pets I have to say though, give it up
for pets.
Who are, coping mechanisms.
They, they nap with you?
They cuddle with, they are,
JAMIE (37:56):
oh yeah, for sure.
REBECCA (37:58):
The best.
I just said give it up for petsand I hate myself.
JAMIE (38:02):
Everybody give it up for pets! Applause.
I have two cats.
Detective Snoop and his girlFriday.
he honestly is like way toosmart for his own good and it's
really annoying, but it's fine.
Rebecca, how many pets do youhave?
REBECCA (38:23):
Three and a half.
I have two dogs, an ancient cat.
And a poodle who is mentallylike,
JAMIE (38:37):
Harper is the one you're giving a half.
I thought you were giving thehalf to the cat.
REBECCA (38:42):
No, the cat gets more than a half.
Like she was legitimately hit inthe head so she tries, but
JAMIE (38:50):
oh my God, let
REBECCA (38:51):
her decided to have like a nice life.
And we don't expect a whole lotout of her.
I want to figure out a nice wayto say, like, without putting
myself in a position where ifanyone from work saw this, I
would be fired, but certainsubstances have also been very
useful in.
Coping and disassociating, butalso, like.
Giving your brain a space to bequiet.
JAMIE (39:14):
Yeah.
REBECCA (39:15):
Like silencing everything.
Just
JAMIE (39:19):
that's.
A lot of my insomnia too.
REBECCA (39:22):
It's so noisy up there all the time.
JAMIE (39:25):
Definitely that is a major coping mechanism and yeah,
I mean, even just like CBDgummies, you know?
REBECCA (39:38):
Yes, that's what it is.
CBD, taking CBD gummies andnothing else.
CBD gummies work.
CBD gummies.
JAMIE (39:46):
Don't fire me.
My favorite is that you're like,How do I say this without
getting fired?
Like that was like your introwas like, I need to be careful
and not get fired.
How do I say this?
And it's like, don't even, don'tintro it like that.
But it's fine.
Part of my problem with insomniatoo is like my brain never shuts
(40:09):
up to begin with, but as soon asI, like my head hits the pillow,
my brain's like, you rememberthat bitch in third grade that
stole your pen and you hadwritten your name on all your
pens?
And then when you were like,Courtney, this is my pen.
Why'd you steal it?
And she said, that's my pen.
And you said, But it has my nameon it.
(40:30):
It says Jamie and she says, Ijust wrote your name on my pen.
I
REBECCA (40:36):
go back to everything I've ever said that has led me
to gallons of humiliation.
JAMIE (40:42):
Yeah.
I just
REBECCA (40:44):
lay in bed awake.
mortified at that one thing Idid that one time.
JAMIE (40:49):
Or I lie in bed awake thinking, What did you do today?
Jamie, what did you do today?
You did nothing today.
Are you proud of yourself?
Are you happy now?
You did nothing.
You better do somethingtomorrow.
You better get your shittogether and do something
tomorrow.
Rinse, repeat.
REBECCA (41:08):
Anxiety.
That's rolling down into kids aswell.
kids are having more and moreanxiety these days.
Again, the pandemic reallyfucked up so many people, but
especially kids.
And so kids are now learning howto do like breathing exercises
and self centering and the, whatare the five things I can see.
JAMIE (41:28):
And how to hide and keep quiet during a school shooting
incident.
REBECCA (41:33):
Oh boy.
That's a whole other thing too.
Getting them to help now insteadof being like, ah, they'll be
fine.
I think it at least gives them abetter chance than we have.
JAMIE (41:43):
Yeah.
No, I agree.
I
REBECCA (41:45):
do have to say though, Jamie, we are fucking adults,
and we go shopping forgroceries, and we feed our pets,
and we are alive.
Up until recently, we both had10 jobs.
We will have one again.
That wasn't your fault.
Like, we are both, we are bothgainfully employed, and doing
really well.
Like,
JAMIE (42:05):
We were Jamie until you fucked it up.
Fucked it up, Jamie.
But that you were gainfullyemployed.
REBECCA (42:11):
All the energy goes into that and then you don't
have any energy left to like dothe stuff that you need to do to
survive anywhere else.
Like it goes into performinglike high performance at work
and then mm-hmm The end of theday, you're so wiped out.
You have no choice but to like
JAMIE (42:25):
curl up in a ball and cuddle a squish melow and a pet.
And watch and
REBECCA (42:31):
watch Dolphin's Creek.
JAMIE (42:32):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm Exactly.
REBECCA (42:34):
I'll just say Being aware of it though, and this is
not me trying to like put a likea, a happy face on it, but at
least being aware of it andtalking about it instead of just
like Stopping it down andpretending everything's fine,
which is what I think a lot ofwhat our parents do and did.
I think talking about it,though, has helped.
And so, again, not, I'm notputting, like, a, a kumbaya bow
(42:56):
on it, but I think having you,and the more you and I have
talked about it, and growncloser, I think being able to
talk to you, like, when I'm inthat mood, It feels less lonely
that you're in this headspace,and so the need to disassociate
is, is less because you're notlike in that boat,
JAMIE (43:16):
there's a lot going on and especially that's what I was
gonna say earlier was just likeit's, it's really true that as
millennials, we, we haveexperienced just like an insane
amount of, bullshit.
You know?
there's just so much and then ontop of it like the pandemic
(43:38):
which was just definitely notthe most fucked up thing that
has been going on but that thatreally like I don't know put
like a a scar on everyone a markon everybody.
REBECCA (43:57):
By the way, Pokemon is hiring.
I keep getting, like, job postsfor Pokemon, and if anyone is in
the Washington area, they arehiring, and there was an editor
job,
JAMIE (44:07):
Is it, in house only?
I
REBECCA (44:08):
feel like you could, no, it's hybrid, but I feel like
you could convince them to makeit remote.
Honestly.
Can I?
Because I was looking at thejob, you could 100 percent do
that.
JAMIE (44:19):
Yeah.
Well, maybe.
I'm just
REBECCA (44:21):
saying.
Pokemon has a weirdly weird tonof jobs open that I keep
getting, like, alerts for.
JAMIE (44:28):
Yeah.
REBECCA (44:30):
Twitch is also weirdly hiring a lot of software
engineers and data engineers.
JAMIE (44:40):
I guess this is also a good opportunity to talk about
discord, Rebecca,
REBECCA (44:43):
With our Discord, we have a community where we have
set up several channels.
I have learned how to useDiscord, which I'm very proud of
myself we do have multipleplaces for job seekers.
So, we have one for jobopenings.
We have one to network.
We have ones where you can shareyour shit.
So like, share your portfolios.
Share what you've created, sharewhat you're working on, like
JAMIE (45:05):
share your artwork.
The more
REBECCA (45:06):
people we have, yes, the more people we have in this
network to kind of collaboratewith and, and connect with.
There might be something outthere that someone has or knows
of that's open, that's a perfectfit for you.
You never know.
but job openings for yourcompany that you know of, just
drop it in there.
We have our co working and body,body doubling channels.
So there's co working for chattypeople.
(45:29):
There's co working for those whojust want to like silently work
together.
but again, it's just a niceplace where you don't have to be
alone with your thoughts.
Again, just building thatcommunity of people to support
you to get through all the hardthings that, like, you don't
necessarily want to do.
JAMIE (45:42):
Yeah.
REBECCA (45:43):
And it has been helpful.
I cleaned my, my whole office atone point just to be on a call
with you.
JAMIE (45:49):
That's what helps me a ton.
And it's so funny because I keepfinding out to, like, how
helpful that is to so manypeople.
REBECCA (45:58):
Yes.
It really, really is.
Yeah, come join.
There is a link on our website.
You can join it.
And you don't, I mean, you don'thave to do a lot in there.
You don't have to do anything inthere.
You can lurk, but if you needpeople.
I cannot recommend it enough.
JAMIE (46:14):
And we play games in there too.
Like, we play games with eachother.
We disassociate with each other.
You know,
REBECCA (46:20):
I'm looking at our share your shit channel now and
we have work outfits.
We have cats.
We have video game clips.
We have, artwork.
We have pictures of food.
Someone edited a D& D styleepisode for a client, they're
sharing theirs.
It's just fun.
It's fun and silly and it's,yeah, makes you feel less
isolated.
JAMIE (46:41):
Play games with us
REBECCA (46:42):
one over there.
JAMIE (46:43):
And also we're very like, we're there, like that's why we
do this for the community.
We do this to, I don't know,give people a place to hang and
give people a place to getsupported, especially if you
REBECCA (46:54):
also.
My sister recently joined.
JAMIE (46:57):
Okay.
So she still hasn't made it tothe podcast.
She hasn't made it to Twitch,but she joined our discord.
So that's a big first step.
good job, Rachel.
I'm proud of you.
REBECCA (47:09):
Yeah.
And if you tell mom about this,I'm going to tell them about
that thing.
So don't.
JAMIE (47:15):
Now we're resorting to threats.
That's fine.
That's what, that's what we dohere.
It's a safe space after all.
but thank you so much forcoming.
I guess you guys
REBECCA (47:23):
until we,
JAMIE (47:24):
yeah, we'll see you in a couple of weeks.
REBECCA (47:26):
Happy
JAMIE (47:27):
new year.
Have a happy new year.
All right.
Bye everybody.
The Burnout Collective is hostedby me, Jamie Young.
REBECCA (47:35):
And me, Rebecca McCracken.
You can find all our episodes,plus show notes, at
burnoutcollective.
com.
JAMIE (47:42):
Follow the discord link on our website to join the
burnout community.
You can also find us on TikTokand Instagram.
REBECCA (47:48):
If you're interested in being a guest on a future
episode or have questions orfeedback.
You can email us at podcast atburnout collective.
com.
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