August 5, 2025 • 50 mins
Companies using ridiculous hiring practices, AI in content creation, and the gross secrecy around salaries—we've got it all this week. We discuss pay transparency, why some hiring managers are shady af, and why everyone should just post those salaries already. Once we started brainstorming solutions to the pay transparency problem, we realized we hadn't done enough (or our own) research. So, next up? Making the job market a fairer place.
tl;dr Basically, Jamie got upset by a LinkedIn post which made her make a LinkedIn post (but don't worry she's in recovery now). And now we've decided to use our dusty journalist brains. Stay tuned.
Have a suggestion for our next episode? A burnout story to share? Send us a text!
The Burnout Collective Podcast is hosted by Jamie Young and Rebecca McCracken. We’ve had every ounce of inspiration sucked out by years of startups and hustle culture, and we’re trying to reclaim our creativity. Join us and our guests as we explore how to restart and reenergize our brains. Every Thursday at 5pm PT, we stream live on twitch.tv/TheBurnoutCollective.
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Music track: Snap Your Fingers by Aylex
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jamie (00:00):
I got a little riled up about it and there's so much
more I want, I just, I thinklike bare minimum, especially
because it's the law.
(00:20):
Hey everybody.
Rebecca (00:21):
Hi, happy Friday.
Nope.
Thursday.
Happy Thursday.
Jamie (00:25):
When have we ever pod?
No, we actually have podcastedon a Friday.
I was gonna say, when have weever, yeah.
happy Thursday.
Rebecca (00:33):
yes.
Actual Thursday.
Happy actual Thursday.
Sorry,
Jamie (00:37):
I had some PR person actually email me and say that
happy almost Friday.
Rebecca (00:42):
Thursday.
Oh,
Jamie (00:43):
Friday.
And I was like, that's what Ithought.
I was like, no, that's gross.
Rebecca (00:47):
don't tease me with that.
It's not nice.
Jamie (00:49):
I still think the worst though is happy Monday.
Rebecca (00:52):
How's your week going?
Jamie (00:53):
It's going, working on a lot of stuff.
So that's been good.
I feel like we should do anepisode on ai.
'cause I have a lot of things tosay about that too.
We both do.
I know.
but there was an article todaythat I read where, oh, I can't
remember the company now, but.
(01:13):
They actually like, I don't knowif you guys are doing this, but
they're actually like searchingall the different chat bots for
like their pillar pieces.
And so they're like saying Hey,what's the best article on this?
And seeing what the, becauseit's like you have to figure out
what AI thinks now, right?
Because that's what Google'sshowing is what AI thinks.
(01:35):
and so they're trying to likemodel their content around ai,
which is just like blowing mymind.
Vogue just used AI models intheir newest magazine,
apparently.
Oh, AI models.
Wow.
Wow.
That's crazy.
Rebecca (01:51):
Imagine this.
It was a busty blonde,
Jamie (01:53):
A busty blonde.
Really?
Huh?
Surely she wasn't like alsowhite.
Rebecca (01:58):
I have a surprise for you, Jamie.
Jamie (02:00):
What?
Rebecca (02:00):
She was so white
Jamie (02:01):
I am shook.
Oh yeah.
But
Rebecca (02:04):
after our LinkedIn, convo last week.
LinkedIn has been extra spicy inserving me up some of the most
unhinged crazy shit.
Jamie (02:13):
You've been?
Rebecca (02:14):
I sent you a couple screenshots of just but my
sister messaged me and was like,I love this.
I love this subreddit.
She goes, this is amazing.
Jamie (02:20):
Oh, nice.
good.
yeah, so, uh, I kind of, I got alittle upset and then fell into
the LinkedIn trap today.
Rebecca (02:29):
When you messaged me, I posted on LinkedIn.
I just had, I tied out, oh,Jamie, no.
And then delete, delete, delete.
I was just like, Jamie, why?
Jamie (02:39):
So a little background.
I was talking to mysister-in-law, who, basically is
an influencer on LinkedIn.
she's great.
I love her content.
We talked about it last week,but I was telling her about the
show last week and how we weremaking fun of the, this
executive editor of Forbes orYahoo or whatever, like posting.
(03:02):
here's what I learned from beinglike a digital nomad, but then
posted a photo of like them in abikini and like how cringe.
Yeah.
Hot dog legs, how cringe thatis.
And my sister-in-law was like,you think it's cringe, but do
you think it's cringe that likepeople make money because Aw,
(03:24):
thanks for the Resub Marina.
Thank you.
Hello.
and she's'cause that's the typeof thing that LinkedIn rewards
the algorithm is rewarding rightnow is like photos.
Especially if they're like, oflike you or a person.
I was this close to alsothrowing a selfie on that post
(03:44):
randomly.
I was gonna do it.
I was like, I'm gonna do thisfor science.
And then I couldn't.
I had one attached and I waslike, this doesn't make sense.
I was like, why would I attachthis to this?
But that's
Rebecca (03:56):
gross.
Jamie (03:56):
yes, it does.
I don't like it.
I don't like it at all.
And so I was
Rebecca (04:00):
And when she says that's how they make money, how
is that not like basicallyprofessional prostitution,
genuinely asking.
Jamie (04:06):
that's what I mean, in a way, and I don't mean this like
in a derogatory way, but in away that's kinda what being as
an influencer is, prostitution.
Rebecca (04:15):
I know, but when she says, it's do you have a problem
with the making money?
Yeah.
again, on LinkedIn, A, who areyou making money from?
Then B, that means someone ownsyou and you're not being totally
ethical and you're like, itjust, it feels it icky.
It feels icky.
I don't know.
Jamie (04:30):
that's being in an influencer though, That's why
we're not influencers.
Rebecca (04:34):
We have bad attitudes.
Jamie (04:35):
'cause we have bad attitudes.
That's pretty accurate.
anyway, I didn't tell you thatpart until just now, but Yeah, I
was like this close and I waslike, I can't, this feels too
much.
Rebecca (04:46):
I would have made fun of you for so many
Jamie (04:49):
No, but do you know why I was tempted?
'cause I was just like, forscience, let's see, let's see if
I like get better reach thannormal.
but maybe one day, one day whenthere's some sort of a segue and
not let me talk about things Ihate and then attach a photo of
myself.
Rebecca (05:06):
Was that what the post was on?
On things you hate?
Jamie (05:09):
it was just about we know how hard it is to find a job
right now.
And the post is just about, I'msick of hiring managers, asking
Rebecca (05:20):
things you hate there you,
Jamie (05:22):
hiring managers, asking so much of candidates, and then
also like candidates, like wearen't getting anything in
return.
And to be clear, like I've beenon both sides clearly.
Most recently, obviously lookingfor work and I'm on the
candidate side.
but yeah, and I, and in the postI just said, and there are two
things that I can post itsomewhere.
(05:43):
Where is it?
Rebecca (05:44):
with, fuck you, Robert.
Jamie (05:46):
no, Rebecca was disappointed that I didn't do
that, but that's fine.
I don't even know where it is.
Oh, I'll find it later.
Rebecca (05:52):
in the next week you can post about your new
diagnosis of multiplepersonality disorder.
Jamie (05:57):
Here we go.
No, but I said these are all thethings, the hiring because Okay,
what have we talked about likein past episodes, right?
So obviously you need yourresume.
Rebecca (06:08):
Mm-hmm.
Jamie (06:09):
sometimes you need your resume in a specific format and
that can differ.
Rebecca (06:13):
writing?
Yep.
portfolio
Jamie (06:16):
portfolio samples of your work.
Sometimes
Rebecca (06:19):
videos.
That was a thing.
Jamie (06:21):
oh, I forgot about that.
Even a lot of people are askingfor videos, like a short video,
or sometimes they say oh, just ashort little blurb about like
why you're the best person forthe job.
in addition to a cover letter.
Like to me it's that's what thecover letter is.
Rebecca (06:36):
That exactly.
That's exactly what a cover
Jamie (06:38):
And in the application, what else do you do?
You fill out all these detailsthat are already in your resume
that you sent them.
So like you're doing this extrawork as well.
There's nothing I hate more.
it just really grinds my gearsis like doing the same thing or
like doing extra work for noreason at all.
Rebecca (06:58):
It's inefficient.
They're inefficient systems andprocesses.
Jamie (07:01):
pisses me off.
But, and so I was listing allthese things, that people
expect, that hiring managers,companies expect from you.
And then I said, and there'sreally, I think only two things,
two major things that like we ascandidates like are asking of
you.
And one is, first and foremostlike respect and just common.
(07:22):
I think decency.
just email us back even if youhave it automated.
On like your side, like that'sgreat to like email back
candidates to be like, oh no,we're full.
Or, I'm so sorry.
And try to do so as soon aspossible.
I know people don't want tountil they have a candidate
completely lined up and signedand like they have they're
(07:44):
starting in two weeks.
But dear God, like I have somany friends and me who've sent
hundreds upon hundreds ofapplications and we don't even
hear back.
Rebecca (07:56):
like even a confirmation email saying if
we're interested in movingforward, do a whole more thanks
for sending it in.
we'll get back in touch.
Yeah, that would be nice.
Jamie (08:03):
yeah.
and so that I think is just,that's just like respect and
commend.
And then the second thing was ispost the fucking salary post.
The rate post, the pay post, thecompensation.
In the job description.
it's ridiculous.
And that just somebody hadcommented and they were like,
(08:23):
oh, I don't even apply to jobsthat don't list it.
And I was like, yeah, that's howI am.
Except like I really needed ajob.
So I took a chance on some andand had to just apply anyway.
especially if I thought it wassomething that was a really good
fit.
but I don't wanna do that.
And then that makes me thinkthat then what are we doing
then?
Are we preying on people whoare, I don't wanna say
(08:45):
desperate, but almost, yeah, youneed to survive, you need money.
and so they're like, we don'thave to put the pay.
We will just like rope people inand take'em through the process.
And
Rebecca (08:56):
And I was just, I just looked at like the states that
are required to put salary inand there's
Jamie (09:03):
a lot.
Rebecca (09:04):
like four, no.
14,
Jamie (09:06):
Yeah, I mean I think that's a lot like,
Rebecca (09:08):
oh no, sorry, more than 14.
I can't fucking read or scrolldown.
It's still not 51 though.
Or 50.
Wow.
It's been a long day.
it's
Jamie (09:16):
it's numbers,
Rebecca (09:17):
Is any state that starts with an A isn't even in
here at all.
it's just more of the like thequote unquote blue states that
have them.
Jamie (09:25):
Yeah.
Rebecca (09:26):
And so I mean there's just, to your point, if they're
desperate, I'll just take whatthey can get.
Jamie (09:32):
but also what that means is, so it's like actually
illegal and I had to talk abouta company I worked for about
this.
If you have a job and it's opento remote, and typically when
people say like remote, that canbe anywhere in the US for
example.
so if you're open to anycandidate from any state in
(09:53):
including these states where it.
Where it's the law that you haveto include the salary, then you
have to include the salary.
You have to,
Rebecca (10:02):
remo, so remote positions essentially?
Yeah.
Jamie (10:05):
They have to.
And people say oh no.
Like I think a lot of peoplethink if they're based in, a
certain state, like if thecompany's HQ is in a certain
state, it goes by those rules.
No, it goes by the rules of thecandidates that you will get and
Rebecca (10:19):
A company in Arizona, let's say if they post a remote
job, they would have to includethe salary,'cause someone from
California or Connecticut couldpossibly apply.
Jamie (10:27):
Yes.
Yes.
Exactly.
And I had this come up with likeat a company I worked for and I
was like, oh, hey, I noticed.
'cause I think I, it was myfirst time at that company
hiring somebody and I was like,oh, I noticed, like we don't put
this in our job.
Descriptions, we should do that.
And I was like, it's actuallyillegal since we're doing this
(10:48):
remote.
And I never heard back and neverheard back.
And I finally asked my managerabout it and I was like, Hey,
did the higher up say anythingabout this?
And if they're gonna include it?
And they decided they knew thatit was illegal, but they don't
care because apparently it'sjust a slap on the wrist if
(11:08):
they're like caught or somebody,tattles on them.
I don't know like how it works.
Rebecca (11:13):
is between 100 to 10,000 per violation.
That's a pretty wide range, andI'm
Jamie (11:19):
that is a really
Rebecca (11:20):
it's not gonna be 10,000.
So if it's 100 per hand slap,
Jamie (11:25):
Yeah.
They're like, oh, we don't care.
And it's, but to me, like that'sinsane.
To be like, I don't care thatthis is illegal.
Rebecca (11:32):
the bigger thought behind it do you think though?
what's the bigger thought ofthem being like, f fuck it.
Is it because they, that meansthey get away with paying people
less.
Jamie (11:39):
I think so.
And I also think somebody hadposted too on my post that it's
very it seems deceptive and likesecretive and that's really it.
And it's just yeah, to low ballpeople, ash and, again, talking
about things feeling gross, likethat's disgusting to me.
why would you not?
(11:59):
and if you're a hiring managerat a place where they're like,
oh, we don't do that.
Yeah, we know we're supposed to,but we don't put it in there.
I've never been given a straightanswer, I just assume it's to be
able to low ball people.
And especially now becausethat's what everybody's looking
to do.
they're laying off, their seniormost expert staff because they
(12:20):
get paid too much and they'retrying to hire people in that
don't have a lot of experience.
But we'll maybe do a decent jobfor half the pay.
Rebecca (12:29):
Yep.
Jamie (12:30):
What did Pat say here?
Rebecca (12:31):
I guess my question is if you were a company like that,
though.
And you have your competitorsout there.
Wouldn't you wanna hire the bestand the brightest in order to
beat your competitors?
Why would you roll the chanceson only getting applications
from people who aren't the bestof the best?
there are a lot of people outthere who's like I, they're not
listening to salary.
I'm not applying, like I'm notdoing that.
(12:52):
So why would you take thosechances of losing out on
potentially someone who canreally help or turn things
around or boost revenue orconversions?
Like what?
I guess that's the problem.
I guess that's what I reallyhave trouble wrapping my head
around.
Do they just not care?
This is a genuine question.
It's like I'm having funny, dothey just not care?
(13:13):
what is the reasoning behind it,do you think?
Jamie (13:15):
I don't know.
I think it must stem.
I, yeah, I think it must juststem from all this shame that
we've always had about money andtalking about money even with
our friends or with our familyor with like our coworkers,
especially oh, I would, I shouldbe making more than her, but I
bet she's making more than me.
And like I, we don't talk aboutit with each other.
(13:37):
And I.
Rebecca (13:38):
I think I've mentioned Ask a manager a few times, they
recently had a letter.
It was about someone who had ajob interview and asked about
afterwards, like asked about thesalary and benefits and they
told him that they were nolonger going to consider him
because it was so rude of him toask about the money that he
wants to be paying
Jamie (13:57):
That's what I'm saying.
I've been told that because Ialways ask, and I encourage
every single one of you to dothis.
Even if you're scared, do this.
Negotiate for yourself.
You are valuable.
You are so valuable, but justyou have to, if they don't, I
don't know if for some reasonthey don't have the salary or
(14:18):
pay listed and you apply anywayand you have an interview ask in
that first interview.
You don't have to wait.
You don't have to wait for themto bring it up.
Don't wait for them to bring itup.
You bring it up.
I've had that happen to methough, where I've brought it up
and somebody's been like, theydidn't like that.
I don't think it was veryexplicit that they weren't
moving forward with me becauseof that.
(14:38):
But it was very obvious to methat bothered
Rebecca (14:41):
And see, that's the thing.
It's like they want to hear, Ijust really wanna do this job
because I'm so fuckingpassionate about X, Y,
Jamie (14:48):
people need to live.
are you kidding me?
Rebecca (14:51):
Yes.
I need the Maslow's hierarchy ofneeds fulfilled, including
shelter and food.
Jamie (14:57):
Yeah.
I wanted to go back to some ofthe things that, pat said here
that I missed.
I saw some article also sayingthat places are cross checking
people's employment dates ontheir resume against their
LinkedIn.
I just feel like these job postsare just used as info farming
bullshit.
Yeah, and that could be too.
'cause there's a lot of that,especially on LinkedIn right
now.
Rebecca (15:17):
Is it also to train their AI systems though?
Do you think That's anotherthing I've heard going around is
it's meant to train their, likeAI hiring systems.
Jamie (15:25):
Yeah, but I also think that's so shitty.
It's just ugh.
It bothers me
Rebecca (15:31):
I worked at a place,
Jamie (15:33):
so much.
Rebecca (15:33):
no, I, I worked at a place where they just were like,
people wanna work here.
So we didn't have any job, likeroles open.
And they were just like, justpost that.
Like we have roles open andmaybe someone amazing will
apply, but you get all thesepeople who are just like, oh
yeah, but we didn't have the payon there.
We didn't have anything.
And it was like these peop wegot tons and tons of
applications for a job thatdidn't exist.
(15:55):
and, but that was a smallcompany.
So I think the rules of paydidn't.
Apply to them, but still like itwas just weird.
was it just to see who's themost desperate, I don't know.
It's weird.
Jamie (16:05):
Yeah, it just really seems like what Pat said, they
treat us Jesus.
There's that because they treatus like cogs that they can just
keep changing out and thenpocket the extra, that's exactly
what's happening and
Rebecca (16:17):
Except it costs more money to fire people and replace
them.
Or I guess, you know what, Iguess if you're not get paid,
getting paid a fair salary,maybe it isn't expensive because
they already saved money, notpaying you the amount you
deserve to be
Jamie (16:30):
They don't pay you the amount, you're the quite the
amount you deserve to be paidand then they bring in someone
else that they can pay even lessthan they deserve to be paid.
My god.
What do you mean you care moreabout the money than the
privilege to work here?
Yeah, that's been told to me.
We've talked about that before.
That's been told to us, like atcompanies we've already been at.
(16:50):
When we were asking to becompensated for, a role change
or a promotion, it's,
Rebecca (16:57):
And if you are applying with a company who gets
squirrely about you asking thefirst interview, that means that
you're likely not going to gofar salary wise if you do get a
job there, if they're that way,when you don't work there about
money conversations, it's likelynot going to be better.
Jamie (17:13):
no.
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
I didn't even think of that partof it.
Abso fucking, absolutely.
Rebecca (17:17):
And then to your point about people being weird to talk
about money, when you actuallydo have the job, if you're not
unionized, there's a lot of husharound salary and people
surprisingly don't talk abouthow much they make, which I
think is a mistake.
Jamie (17:34):
I think it's scary too.
This might be a good opportunityfor me to talk about, when we
worked at SLH, the company thatwe met at, I remember being on
the phone with our friend Kate.
She just got hired as the HRdirector there.
Like she just got hired.
This was like, I had alreadypretty much got the job, but she
(17:55):
had just started and they stillwanted her to talk to me.
So I was on the phone with herand she had said something to
the effect of, she was just liketelling me more like I was
asking questions and she wastelling me more about, what they
offer and what it's like.
And she had me mentioned thatthey had this completely
transparent, salary formula, inwhich not only was it
(18:18):
transparent, showing the formulaof how everyone is paid, to
show.
That everyone's being paidequal, including, living in LA
versus living in Kentucky orTennessee or wherever.
like I would get more,'cause Ilive in California'cause my cost
of living, so it would factor inthe cost of living.
but they also had this giantspreadsheet where everyone's
(18:42):
salary was on there from the CEOall the way down.
So everyone knew what everyonemade.
If you went to see, it's notlike you had to go look, but I
think who wouldn't, when, thisis the first time I'd ever come
across a company that did that.
And and I don't even know what Isaid, but she could tell that I
was ugh.
Because I was like, that's, itwas uncomfortable.
(19:03):
It was very uncomfortable.
And I think she said, she waslike, yeah, I know it's
uncomfortable.
She's I've never been at a placethat does this before either.
She's but I think it's a goodthing and.
Now, I wish everybody did that.
it was great.
I don't even, I don't even thinkthat it should have had as big
of an effect on everyone and howwe all felt about being paid and
(19:27):
being paid fairly as it did.
I think just like having thatout there and being upfront,
even the CEO, like this is whatthe CEO's making and, it's just
fair.
And then it's like when you knowyou're being paid fairly and you
don't have to like, question itconstantly, which we do a lot,
because we're not being paidfairly most of the time.
Rebecca (19:49):
Do you?
So for me, I just rip thebandaid off where I've been.
I just tell people what I'mmaking or like people who I know
are applying, here's what I'mmaking, here's what you should
expect.
Because it's the only way that Iknow to do my part as far as
them possibly making a fairsalary and something equal to
that or similar.
(20:10):
and you mentioned earlier thereare so many articles out there
who are like women.
You should talk to each otherabout your salaries more, which
fair?
But really, men should betalking to women about their
salaries.
Because historically and evencurrently, they still make more
than women for the same roles,even though they're not supposed
to do.
Somehow they do.
(20:30):
And so if men were a little morevocal in that and were
Jamie (20:34):
Allies.
Rebecca (20:35):
allies.
Exactly.
So
Jamie (20:38):
We need more.
More men Feminists.
Male feminists please.
Rebecca (20:41):
As much as the amount of shit that I give the people
of that company that we weretalking about, that's the first
time I've ever seen anyone inthat position of power who were
two men, two white men actually,who were doing something like
that.
So I have to give them the bareminimum award.
Ladies and gentlemen.
Yay.
Bare minimum.
Yay.
(21:02):
No.
Like I have to
Jamie (21:02):
just like the award for best hugger.
that's what they gave Rebecca,you guys, she hates
Rebecca (21:08):
Best Tucker.
yeah, so that's the first placeI've seen that done.
Jamie (21:11):
Okay?
Rebecca (21:12):
It's never been at women led companies, have never
worked at a company that didthat was led by women.
So they did set the bar.
They did set the bar on what Iexpected and have never gotten
ever again at any company.
Jamie (21:26):
Yep.
Yeah, same.
And it was like, and that was, Ithink there are.
A, like a good handful that Iknow of companies, like bigger
companies that do that.
And, but you just never seethat.
So I'm not asking for that whenI'm talking about pay
transparency, but I would lovethat.
Like I am such an advocate forthat.
Like I think that would begreat.
(21:47):
I think somebody posted, Ishould add that too.
I should have put that on myLinkedIn post.
this one guy did all of thisresearch.
He was a freelance writer andhad written for a ton of like
big name websites and companiesand he put together a
spreadsheet showing liketypically this is what they pay,
(22:08):
like including like this muchfor this number of words.
Or this company pays per word,this company pays a flat fee of
500, like this and that.
And I thought that was amazingthat somebody put that together
because that's super helpful forfreelancers when I.
When I first startedfreelancing, recently, this
(22:30):
year.
Yeah.
Rebecca, I had to ask Rebecca'cause I technically really have
never freelanced before,technically, and I had to ask
her, what should my rate be?
And what should I be factoringin?
And she was very helpful.
And like you said, that wasgreat you sharing that info with
me.
I don't think I share what Imake with first of all, just
(22:51):
anyone and not unprompted.
if like I had a friend that waslike, Hey, what do you make?
I would probably tell them, orespecially if it's
Rebecca (23:00):
I meant, sorry.
I meant with like coworkers.
I'm sorry.
I didn't mean just
Jamie (23:04):
oh.
Rebecca (23:04):
Hey friend, I'm sorry.
I meant with like coworkers,like someone who's in the same
job title as you, or likesomeone's in a role that you've
been in, so you can tell themlike what to expect.
I'm sorry, misspoke.
Jamie (23:15):
Oh no, that's okay.
Rebecca (23:17):
go to CVS and be like, Hey, guess how much money I
make?
Jamie (23:20):
that's what I was saying.
That's why I was like, Iwouldn't do it unprompted, but
like I didn't think that's whatyou meant, but I just wanted to,
I was specifying for me.
Rebecca (23:28):
I would like a cheeseburger and fries.
And would you like to know howmuch money I make a year?
Jamie (23:32):
No, it's not even would you?
It's and I make
Rebecca (23:35):
Let me tell
Jamie (23:36):
I make a hundred thousand dollars.
yeah, that's great.
I think, I don't wanna, I'm notgonna name names, but somebody I
know that I'm very close with,actually was sick of seeing
people get paid fairly at thecompany they worked at or
getting paid on unfairly.
Yes, I did, actually.
I misspoke.
(23:56):
and.
They started like secretly likestarting a spreadsheet to just
be like, Hey, this is why Ibelieve in pay transparency.
And I think it'd be cool if wedid it.
You don't have to, but if youfeel comfortable, add, and
slowly, employees started likeadding to this spreadsheet and
so they were sharing with eachother.
Sure.
There were some that were like,no, I'm not gonna do that.
(24:17):
And I don't think management orthe exec team liked that too
much, but like they never shutit down.
and this is a pretty open-mindedplace, so I'm surprised that
they didn't just go for it.
And maybe they have by now, Idon't know.
But like even doing somethinglike that, like it's not,
there's nothing wrong with that.
Rebecca (24:37):
What about companies who reevaluate what you make
each year and bring you up tolike market?
market pay, because I haven'thad a lot of companies, but, so
where I work, they do that, andthat was totally new to me.
Like I've never had, and it'snot like an a hundred extra
dollars, like they will bump youup if that's what you're, you
need to be bumped up and, that'sanother.
(24:59):
I'm just trying to figure outlike what to say, what to, like,
how to phrase it, but it's just,again, being so open about
here's how much money we'regoing to pay you and here's how
much more money we're gonna payyou is just not a conversation
Jamie (25:11):
knowing that so like that, like I definitely don't
see that, and I know this isn'twhat you were saying, but I
definitely don't see that assomething that should be in like
the job description.
But I think that would be greatif they were like, and we do,
yearly reviews, just like theysay like in bonuses and, But
during the interview process,like you should know that, you
should know exactly, what thepossibilities are for you to
(25:36):
move up in the company and getpromoted and the possibilities
for your compensation toincrease.
And that can be like your salaryfor sure, but also like little
cost of living.
oh my God, that's what I was sofrustrated with when I was laid
off and looking for jobs is thatall these jobs that I had been
doing and getting paid likedecently well for, it was like
(26:01):
some of these were like 70, 60%of that.
And so it was this massive paycut and I'm just like, this is
setting me back so far.
this was me like six years ago,six, seven years ago.
Rebecca (26:17):
I wonder too if just because of the current
environment they're in,companies feel comfortable, like
just asking for more and payingless.
they know people are out thereand desperate.
Jamie (26:27):
Yeah.
Rebecca (26:27):
They know that it's really difficult to find a job,
but I also don't know how,because just.
Journalism.
I don't know how otherindustries are.
Maybe it's just like what we'reseeing, like content people and
are, I would love to hear ifother industries are dealing
with the same thing, likegetting less from, getting more
for less.
Jamie (26:45):
actually interesting.
Rebecca (26:48):
also industries out there who are like unionized.
electricians, plumbers, the waymy sisters talks, my sister
talks about it, with her union.
It's like they're very openabout it and they make sure you
make at least x amount ofdollars and they show you how
much money you're going to makeas you progress throughout your
career.
And it's so like once you hitthis mark, then you're gonna
make this much money.
And once you hit this, you'regonna make this much money.
(27:09):
oh, see, are we talking about,we can't be talking about
unionizing, but also that's whypeople unionize.
I.
Jamie (27:16):
it's just, I guess
Rebecca (27:18):
There
Jamie (27:18):
patriarchy and consumerism.
Rebecca (27:20):
like New York, I think it's New York State has a
freelancers union.
I don't know if all the stateshave, and I don't know if you
have to live in New York tojoin, but there is a freelancers
union.
Jamie (27:28):
Oh yeah.
I did hear about that, but Idon't know much about it.
Rebecca (27:31):
Yeah.
And they do have like healthservices.
Actually, I'll just put it inthe chat.
Jamie (27:36):
I'm actually,
Rebecca (27:37):
they offer your insurance.
Jamie (27:40):
in my head right now.
Hi, Rob.
Hi.
Welcome.
I like now I'm just like,Rebecca, we're journalists.
Let's do this.
Like massive.
I'm sure somebody has done one,but I wanna do like a massive
study on pay transparency and Iwant to find out like who does
it and what their turnover rateis and what in industries have
(28:05):
better pay transparency.
if you're an engineer lookingfor a job, is your salary always
in that jd or the jobdescription or, or not?
Because you're right.
Rebecca (28:16):
great idea.
which makes me think some people
Jamie (28:19):
Yeah, that's what I said.
Yeah, I think, I'm sure.
I
Rebecca (28:21):
oh, sorry.
I'm sorry.
I was Googling, interesting.
So tech, okay, so tech is listedas like one with very strong
patron transparency, which.
Makes a lot of sense because Iguess for those you, I guess for
those you do wanna attract thebest of the best, especially if
you're a startup and or like amajor tech conglomerate, that,
that does make sense.
HR also government, and also Ithink government job jobs are
(28:45):
different, right?
Like government, jobs, I cannottalk today,
Jamie (28:48):
happens.
Rebecca (28:49):
it's just been hours of meetings all week long.
Sorry.
Governments have, likegovernment jobs have to post the
salaries, right?
aren't there federal laws wherethat has to be posted?
Jamie (28:58):
I don't know that for sure.
That sounds correct to me.
But,
Rebecca (29:03):
government.
Jamie (29:04):
I dunno the laws on that.
And I know it's at a state leveltoo, it's not all states, Ash
says, yes, government salarieshave to be public.
They're public, but does thatmean they have to include them
on the job description, Iwonder?
Rebecca (29:19):
Yeah, but then you, you can just look it up to get an
idea.
that's at least more paidtransparent.
Oh, and that's the other thing Iwanted to, I knew what I wanted
to mention.
So there are like, what is it,ZipRecruiter and Glassdoor out
there, they list the averagesalary.
And there have been multipletimes where I like think I, I've
gone in and we're not, are youfucking, no, that's far too
high.
We will not be paying that.
(29:39):
And it's like the average salaryand
Jamie (29:42):
I always find those to be very low on like Glassdoor at
least.
Hey Shep.
Rebecca (29:48):
yeah, I've had people low balling, but this was also,
I don't even know how many yearsago.
so things might have changed,but I don't know.
Jamie (29:56):
As someone who's been looking for a job, Rebecca.
I'm just kidding.
Rebecca (30:00):
Yeah.
Wow.
Again, another episode of thingswe don't
Jamie (30:03):
Yeah, I just, I got a little riled up about it and
there's so much more I want,that's like Jamie's wishlist for
pay transparency for everybody,at every company.
But yeah, I just, I think likebare minimum, especially because
it's the law.
If you're hiring remote fromanywhere in the us, put the
(30:27):
compensation in there, put thepay, don't put like,
compensation is commiseratewith, Ty, blah, blah,
Rebecca (30:34):
Oh, that, yes.
Oh, and then they ask you thenthey're not, wait, they're not,
that's they're not allowed toask you.
What you make, but they areallowed to ask you like what's
your ideal salary?
Which is,
Jamie (30:45):
do that.
Rebecca (30:46):
so you're right.
So you're weeded outPotentially.
But sometimes they're only likethe fields I've come up with
where it's you can only enter anumber.
you can't enter comm, measure itwith experience.
Jamie (30:56):
Oh, they can say that they cannot post the salary, and
they can tell you that's what itis.
But then when they ask you Yeah.
On your job application, it'slike a dropdown and you have to
like, choose
Rebecca (31:07):
And it's required.
Yes, and it's required.
Like you can't move forwardwithout hitting it.
I was like, oh my God.
Jamie (31:13):
I'm like, I'll put the top one, I'll put the highest.
and yeah, not everyone doesthose dropdowns, but those,
especially, those are fucked up.
Usually it's like a box and inthe box I say like I put, I
literally put like TBD, I'll belike TBDI do.
That's what I do.
Like it's that why, I'm notkidding.
That why I never got an emailback.
Rebecca (31:34):
CPD.
Jamie (31:35):
it's TBD.
It's like we're gonna discussit.
I'm not just gonna,
Rebecca (31:40):
apparently we're not gonna discuss it because that's
considered rude.
Also, in a very tangential vein,I found out that some high
managers have what's called thecoffee cup test, where they
offer you something to drinkduring your interview, and then
if you just leave afterwards, orif you just leave the cup or you
don't like, either offer to putit in the sink or throw it away,
they won't
Jamie (32:01):
Who's doing in-person interviews right now?
still, that's my question.
I know
Rebecca (32:06):
I don't
Jamie (32:06):
it's still a thing, but that's awful
Rebecca (32:09):
I know.
And I saw it on TikTok and I waslike, no, that can't be a thing.
And I was reading all thecomments.
I was like, oh my God, it issuch a thing.
It's not even funny.
Holy crap.
Jamie (32:17):
your gu.
These candidates are your guest.
Rebecca (32:19):
That's what so many people put, and they were like,
we're the guests like we are inyour home.
So the mindset is already thereon, they don't consider them
guests.
They consider them, you shouldbe grateful
Jamie (32:30):
it's just people being unhappy.
you're unhappy.
You've always had to, in thework before you got paid for it,
you've always had to do this,and so they, they don't want
that for other people, it'slike, I never had that,
Rebecca (32:44):
that you had that boss.
Remember you had the boss whoyou were like, who was like, I
had to work for free basicallyuntil I, like I was able to get
this salary.
And so even when there is quoteunquote transparency, the
conversations are still stuckway back when.
And these weird mindsets on whatsalary actually is and how much
you deserve.
Jamie (33:04):
Fuck you.
I got mine.
Just it's, yeah, it's insane.
It's just, and I think, okay,like at a state level, yes, that
would be great if all across theUS this was a thing and it had
to be you, like it was illegal.
For anybody not to put thesalary, that would be wonderful.
But I also think like it's up tothe hiring manager.
(33:27):
Because even if you're at acompany to an extent,'cause even
if you're at a company thatdoesn't do that, and says oh no,
we never put salary in our jobdescriptions.
We don't do that.
We don't do that.
I think it's up to you to say,Hey, wait a minute, why?
That's really not great.
don't we want to attract theright people and like the right
person for the job, andsometimes too this
Rebecca (33:49):
what I was saying, like what if we get a subpar
candidate?
Is it just bleed that stone tillit's dry and then get another
one?
what is the point?
Jamie (33:57):
it's not great.
Rebecca (33:58):
Jamie, how do we change this?
Jamie (34:00):
Don't put that on me.
Fuck.
Rebecca (34:02):
that's what I, that's what I mean.
the pay transparency startedthat we experienced in 2017,
which is almost 10 years ago,and I've never experienced it
again.
So it's not like something thatgot better or, it's not like
something that spread.
and I've worked at a lot ofcompanies since then, so I, who
pushes for it?
Is it the hiring?
Is it, to your point, the hiringmanagers, is it hr?
(34:24):
is it the people who run thecompany?
who
Jamie (34:26):
think it's all of us.
I think everybody in everyposition at every level, should
be doing something about it.
And a lot of times it's likesomething small, like I said,
like just bringing up to likeyour executive team or HR say
Hey, your recruitment team,whoever, Hey, I noticed we don't
do this.
And first of all, this isillegal, but second, since you
(34:48):
don't seem to care about that,like these are the reasons like
we'll get better people.
Likely.
not, that's not always true.
because I do think people arejust talking about money,
especially when it comes toprofessionally.
Is scary and people are afraidto do it.
People are afraid to ask whatthe pay is.
People are afraid to negotiate.
(35:10):
People just wanna take whatthey're given.
Even though, like when theyoffer you a salary, I would say
98% of the time you cannegotiate and get more.
Sometimes that may not be juststraight to your salary.
Sometimes that may benegotiating a signing bonus or,
some other benefits that theygive, but
Rebecca (35:31):
and that's where the mindset of who you are as a
worker needs to shift.
Except in today's currentclimate, that's likely not going
to happen.
But instead of you knowing yourworth, a lot of people are
afraid of oh, I don't get this.
we're so tight with salaries,we're living paycheck to
paycheck.
Most of America that it's like,if I don't get this job, I
(35:52):
default on my car loan, or Idefault on
Jamie (35:53):
that's what I'm saying.
Rebecca (35:54):
And so they're terrified.
And if everyone was like,actually, you need workers.
And if we all decided no, we'renot gonna do it, then that would
change.
But because there aren't,
Jamie (36:06):
Yeah.
Rebecca (36:06):
too many people are hurting.
So it's just, it's never, it'snot gonna get better anytime
soon.
Jamie (36:12):
this is depressing.
Rebecca (36:14):
I know again,
Jamie (36:14):
and we all die at the end of this, so
Rebecca (36:17):
Rob was like, are you guys playing, hitting animals
afterwards?
Jamie (36:20):
hitting animals.
Rebecca (36:22):
I was like, we hitting animals?
And I was like, that's
Jamie (36:25):
No.
Rebecca (36:25):
hitting animals.
It's no,
Jamie (36:27):
Now we sound like terrible people.
Rebecca (36:29):
I know.
I was like, that's not even,
Jamie (36:30):
Fuck you, Robert.
Rebecca (36:31):
know.
Jamie (36:32):
Fuck you, Rob.
Rebecca (36:33):
I was like, no, but also that's not the name.
But that's very funny.
But yeah, just not enough peopleare talking about it, not people
are having conversations and,okay, see, again, I keep
thinking we're, I, I keeprealizing we're talking
ourselves into communism.
'cause if the whole countrydecided to do that, but then
that's fucking communism andpeople who are afraid of that.
So that's again, not gonnahappen.
Jamie (36:52):
Yeah, Ash says, and even as many of us hurt from our
paychecks, too many peoplecontinue licking the boots of
our corporate overlords.
We need to take our power back.
Yeah, it's true.
And but it's I don't faultpeople for doing that.
because sometimes that's just aresponse to, trauma and also
just I really need this job.
(37:13):
I can't do anything that might,change that.
Like I don't wanna piss anybodyoff.
and I understand
Rebecca (37:20):
there are a large, I'm sorry.
I say there are a large numberof people out there who don't
want you to make as much moneyas they do.
Like they, they genuinely don'twant you to make as much and
they want to make more.
And they're not ever going to,raise all boats.
They don't wanna do any of that.
And that's just, I think thewhole American, me mindset,
Jamie (37:41):
it's sad, man.
Rebecca (37:42):
just.
It's ugly and sad, and yet weare stuck and unable to do
anything about it.
Jamie (37:49):
Yeah.
I don't know.
Maybe I'll go journalist, Jamieand do some crazy extensive
study.
Rebecca (37:56):
look at the US labor and statistics, and just break
that out.
You should break that out by, byindustry and then go from there.
But see, that's average though.
That's the thing that's average.
Those are averages and that'snot I dunno how we're gonna do
this.
Jamie (38:09):
Yeah.
Rebecca (38:10):
you have a project to work on.
Jamie (38:12):
I'm more referring to the people who act like temporarily
embarrassed millionaires and whowill never have the money of the
1% than the rest of us who aretraumatized,
Rebecca (38:22):
Temper.
Oh, no.
I'm a little rich now.
Don't look at me.
Jamie (38:25):
temporarily Embarrassed millionaires.
Yeah.
Rebecca (38:29):
Yep.
Again, I try to do what I can.
I work at a company that's alsovery open about pay, which I'm
very grateful for, but that is alarge company.
It's not a startup.
It's not a little company thatdoesn't have to follow those
laws.
And actually, maybe that's thething.
If it's a big enough companywhere you could really get a
payout if you know you werefined, or if someone did decide
(38:49):
to sue for not having that kindof information, maybe that's
what it is they're more likelyto follow the laws because they
have more to lose.
Jamie (38:57):
Wait, who are you talking about?
Who has more to lose,
Rebecca (38:59):
I'm talking about so I know our company is very good
about pay transparency, but it'sa very large company.
So I'm wondering if like, whenyou have large companies like
that, they're more likely to,they're more likely to do
something like that because ifsomeone were to li litigate
against them than they wouldhave a lot more to
Jamie (39:14):
right?
Rebecca (39:15):
plus they typically have more jobs, so there's more
potentials for fines.
I don't know.
I'm just trying to think about
Jamie (39:20):
Like why?
Yeah.
Rebecca (39:22):
we should have Kate on genuine.
Like I would genuinely love totalk to Kate about this and I
feel
Jamie (39:26):
so busy, but I would love to,
Rebecca (39:28):
I know we should talk to an HR professional'cause they
could, instead of us just going,woo, we don't know.
We should probably talk tosomeone who does
Jamie (39:35):
One thing I should point out that I had forgotten, I'm
pretty sure that having todisclose salary is only for
companies that are like morethan, I wanna say,
Rebecca (39:46):
people.
Jamie (39:47):
2015,
Rebecca (39:48):
I think so some of'em were 15, maybe it varies by
state.
I'm not
Jamie (39:52):
So if we were hiring for the Burnout Collective, for
example, we wouldn't have to,but would we?
Abso fucking Absolutely.
Of course we would, but, ugh.
Rebecca (40:00):
Oh, some of'em are just, some of them are like with
just at least one employee.
So Colorado, it's like you haveto, if you have even one
employee, you have to post it.
Jamie (40:07):
good for them.
Rebecca (40:08):
that's great.
Jamie (40:09):
Yeah.
Rebecca (40:10):
Hawaii is at least 50, but most of them are between one
to 15.
that's nice though.
You have to work there.
Jamie (40:18):
people.
Followed that, if people stuckto that.
Yeah.
I don't know what it is.
It does, it really just feelslike ego and it's, I don't know.
Rebecca (40:30):
I dunno if it's ego, I just, I think it's no regard and
kind of carelessness and it'slike we might, we've been
getting away with it for Xnumber, we're not gonna or
people saying it's not reallyimportant.
Kinda like compliance rules.
it's not really employer.
Like I've had people say that,but it, that's what I mean, is
Jamie (40:44):
you get
Rebecca (40:44):
of that laissez-faire attitude?
So
Jamie (40:47):
yeah,
Rebecca (40:47):
Or if there, or are the higher ups being like, if you
don't post it, if you have to,
Jamie (40:52):
yeah.
Gross.
And I think it's just, it's thatstigma too.
I think a lot of people likedon't even know the reason.
Like even some exec teams, ifyou were to ask, just be like
one, which is my
Rebecca (41:05):
because that's how it's always been,
Jamie (41:06):
That's how it's always been.
Yeah.
My fucking favorite answer ever.
it was at one company where thatwas their answer to me.
Anytime I brought up a way tostreamline a process or change
something for the better, tomake everything easier for
everybody, I'm like, why do wedo it this way?
Why don't we do it this way?
we've just always done it thatway.
(41:26):
I was like, guys, be better.
Do better.
Listen to yourselves.
Rebecca (41:32):
Yeah, I don't know.
I wish we had more, like moreinformation or a better
conclusion about this, butagain, it seems to be that we
are at the mercy of
Jamie (41:42):
Our corporate
Rebecca (41:42):
right now, and it's not the other way around.
Jamie (41:44):
yeah, that's always how it is and how it's been.
Rebecca (41:47):
We're just gonna change the name of this pod to why not
communism?
Jamie (41:50):
Or maybe communism.
Maybe communism,
Rebecca (41:53):
How about communism?
Jamie (41:55):
commie question mark.
Rebecca (41:56):
And here's the question, why?
Again, like I just, I, I can't,I continue to try to think my
way around this and I stillcannot wrap my head around
someone not wanting to helpsomeone else
Jamie (42:08):
Yeah,
Rebecca (42:09):
and Gate keeping that kind of information and not
wanting,
Jamie (42:13):
it is very gatekeeper.
Yeah.
Rebecca (42:15):
Yeah.
Do you perceive others as athreat and they could
potentially take over your job?
if you bring them up with you, Ijust, again,
Jamie (42:23):
why I say ego.
That's why I say it's ego too,not wholly, I think that's just
part of it that's people feelingthreatened.
like when my manager, when I waslike, oh yeah, what's the comp
increase for me taking on X, Y,and Z responsibilities in
addition to what I've beendoing?
Oh, you need to learn to, workfor it and like then we'll
(42:44):
compensate you.
That's what I did.
I worked my way up and I showedthem that's not how it's
supposed to work.
Rebecca (42:52):
I need to be like, I hate to break it to you, but you
were also taken advantage
Jamie (42:55):
Yeah.
Rebecca (42:56):
they were a person of color too, right?
Like they weren't a white guy,which, so they were exploited
too.
That makes it like double worse.
Jamie (43:04):
Yeah.
Rebecca (43:05):
That's such a bummer.
Jamie (43:07):
We just have to refuse to be complicit in our own
exploitation.
Ladies and gentlemen,
Rebecca (43:14):
Yep.
Again, communism question mark.
Jamie (43:17):
communism.
It's like one of those six feetunder commercials that they used
to do at the beginning of theseries.
They stopped doing that, Ithink, didn't they?
In the series?
I didn't like that they stoppedthat.
Rebecca (43:28):
Are you spoiling something for me, Jamie?
I think you just spoiled a TVshow for
Jamie (43:33):
I did not,
Rebecca (43:34):
No spoilers.
No spoilers about that25-year-old show.
Jamie (43:38):
it's also not a spoiler.
'cause I would never, Rebecca, Iwould never Communism.
Yes,
Rebecca (43:44):
I would actually like us to, so I just, we can talk
more with Mike, but I actuallythink you and I should play
journalist and I would like todo a follow up episode on our
own show about this,
Jamie (43:55):
Yeah.
Rebecca (43:56):
right now I feel a little too dumb cu talking, even
though it's not, but I'm justlike,
Jamie (44:00):
Yeah,
Rebecca (44:00):
I wanna have numbers, like I wanna have numbers, you
know what I mean?
And then I wanna be likecommunist.
So I do I, yeah, I think weshould have that.
I would really love to do thatwith you.
Jamie (44:10):
Yeah, I would too.
Rebecca (44:11):
oh my God.
We get to do writing.
Research journalism, andactually as I'm saying this out
loud and realizing we have ourown discord, there's nothing
stopping us from creatingsomething similar like we have
friends in similar industries,or we could even start our own
database to start gatheringinformation
Jamie (44:29):
That's actually really cool.
Rebecca (44:30):
positions.
State to state,
Jamie (44:32):
should do that.
That should be part of it.
Rebecca (44:34):
all three of our listeners let us,
Jamie (44:36):
email us at.
podcast@burnoutcollective.com.
Tell us.
Rebecca (44:42):
can have an open Google sheet.
Why don't we, hold on, let'sjust, let's start like an open
sheet, we'll start a thing.
We'll organize it first, but Ireally do think that would be
Jamie (44:50):
It should be a form
Rebecca (44:51):
useful and helpful.
Jamie (44:53):
Yeah,
Rebecca (44:54):
Cool.
No, I like that a
Jamie (44:55):
be awesome.
Let's do that.
Look.
Look at us doing
Rebecca (45:00):
We turn that around.
I'm proud of us.
Turn that around.
'cause it was, I was like, Idon't wanna sit here and bitch
and moan, but I feel like Idon't know what to do either.
But this, again, I think it'sjust information.
I, it's the lack of informationand I want and people
Jamie (45:14):
It is.
Yeah.
What do they say?
Information's power.
Knowledge is power.
Rebecca (45:18):
I forgot where I read it, but someone was like, if you
are the only person who, peoplewho knows how to do that one
thing and you are not allowed togo on vacation, you're not
getting paid enough.
Jamie (45:27):
Never be the only person who can do something.
Rebecca (45:30):
that's the kind of mentality I want people if when
they're asking for salary, youdeserve so much money for what
you do.
And to not be afraid.
And I wish we were there yet,we're not there yet.
companies unfortunately stillhold the cards or whatever was
said, but I would like to beable to get to a point where
people show up asking for theirvalue.
Jamie (45:49):
Yeah.
That's hard to do.
But also if any of you everneed.
Advice on doing that, whetherlike negotiating a salary or a
raise or asking for a raise and'cause there is that stigma.
I was like that too, and it tooka fucking white man to, tell me
like, no, you need to be doingthis.
(46:10):
Don't tell them how much youexpect.
They need to give you a numberand then you work off that.
Now though, I will tell themwhat I expect and what I expect
is like on the fucking high end,because if you're gonna ask me,
that's what I expect.
but I get that it's hard and itis scary.
And I think that's one of the, Idon't wanna say problems, but I
(46:33):
think that's a big part of it,is that a lot of people are
afraid for different reasons to
Rebecca (46:40):
Because enough people have lost opportunities because
they dared to ask.
And so again, I would sayproportionally it's smaller, but
those are the ones that stickout of you, and people don't
wanna be that one person wholost out on a job opportunity.
Jamie (46:53):
Yeah, I like this
Rebecca (46:55):
It sucks that there's a level of fear.
I'm also wondering
Jamie (46:58):
be clear.
I don't like this.
I'm just what we're gonna do, goon.
Rebecca (47:01):
Again, I'm wondering if there's any, anything into how
people are raised, if it's in areligion or if it's in a
religious household and the waythat money is talked about or
not talked about, and how theremight be not a lot of critical
thinking skills, or you'retaught to what is it?
Like work with a happy heart.
Do you know what I mean?
Like you're taught all thesethings that don't.
I'm
Jamie (47:20):
I know.
I know you're serious.
But I'm gonna start saying thatto you.
If like you complain aboutsomething, you're like, Ugh, I
hate this.
I'm gonna be like, Rebecca, youshould really be working with a
happy heart right now.
Rebecca (47:31):
Yeah, but I, so there's a, there's an inherent guilt for
people to either ask for moremoney or feel like they deserve
more because it's I should justbe happy.
Do you know what I mean?
So I think there's a lot thereto, to figure out, like, why, I
swear to God, if we and thispodcast and someone's already
written this thesis paper, I'mgonna be so fucking mad.
Jamie (47:49):
I'm sure there's studies and like I want us to use those,
like to our benefit and toinclude that.
But I don't know if someone didexactly what we're thinking.
Maybe they did.
Rebecca (48:00):
Alright.
Jamie (48:00):
shit, what was I just gonna tell you?
Oh look, it's the raccoonreport.
Rebecca (48:04):
I'm not reading that.
Jamie (48:05):
what, come on.
While you were talking, therewas something I thought of.
Rebecca (48:09):
God punishing you for saying you're gonna tell me to
have a happy heart.
Every time I complain,
Jamie (48:13):
Rebecca, please.
Really, you should just beworking with a happy heart.
Rebecca (48:17):
God's already punishing us.
What are you talking
Jamie (48:19):
And also yeah.
why do you think we only havethree listeners?
We're just kidding.
We love you guys.
We love you so much.
Rebecca (48:25):
We love all
Jamie (48:26):
just very self-deprecating.
the bot summary of my commentsis sending me dead.
Yeah.
Dead.
Dead.
Yeah.
Rebecca (48:34):
we are still working on getting guests for our next two
episodes.
Jamie (48:37):
If you'd like to be a guest, please let
Rebecca (48:40):
you know what?
We should also reach out toMorgan,'cause Morgan is in HR
and like talent development andtalent.
Yeah.
We should also reach out toMorgan.
I feel like Morgan would havesome good answers for this too.
Jamie (48:51):
And Kate?
Yeah.
Aw, thanks Ash.
Yeah, that's all I got.
Now let's go work on this.
Rebecca (48:57):
that feeling.
Thank you guys for joining us.
We really appreciate it.
we're on episode 33, which iscrazy to me.
So
Jamie (49:04):
doing it.
Rebecca (49:04):
we're,
Jamie (49:05):
so happy.
We're so neuro divergent andwe're yeah, we're even LinkedIn
official.
We're not hiding it anymore.
Rebecca (49:11):
We came out on LinkedIn.
Jamie (49:13):
Oh my God.
We did.
It's true.
yeah, so follow the BurnoutCollective on LinkedIn.
there's nothing
Rebecca (49:19):
Joiner discard
Jamie (49:20):
even know how to add Rebecca to the group.
yeah, join our discard.
and we love talking about thisstuff too.
So if you're listening to thisand you're like, oh, I have so
much to say, and I have opinionson this and this, and feel free,
email us or, if you can contactus in another way, if you're
like a good friend and you wannatext us or Discord message us,
please join the Discord.
(49:41):
And, talk about it there, let'sdiscuss it there.
we would love that.
Rebecca (49:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Please do.
Jamie (49:48):
And tell us how much money you make.
I'm just kidding.
all right, everybody, thank youso much.
Rebecca (49:54):
Go away.
We're done.
Jamie (49:55):
Goodbye.
Rebecca (49:57):
I stole my favorite.
Sign up for yours.
Go away.
We're done.
Jamie (49:59):
I don't even know why I said that.
Rebecca (50:01):
I don't either, but still my favorite.
Jamie (50:03):
All right, Finn.
Rebecca (50:04):
Okay, love you.
Bye.
I got a little riled up about it and there's so much
more I want, I just, I thinklike bare minimum, especially
because it's the law.
(00:20):
Hey everybody.
Rebecca (00:21):
Hi, happy Friday.
Nope.
Thursday.
Happy Thursday.
Jamie (00:25):
When have we ever pod?
No, we actually have podcastedon a Friday.
I was gonna say, when have weever, yeah.
happy Thursday.
Rebecca (00:33):
yes.
Actual Thursday.
Happy actual Thursday.
Sorry,
Jamie (00:37):
I had some PR person actually email me and say that
happy almost Friday.
Rebecca (00:42):
Thursday.
Oh,
Jamie (00:43):
Friday.
And I was like, that's what Ithought.
I was like, no, that's gross.
Rebecca (00:47):
don't tease me with that.
It's not nice.
Jamie (00:49):
I still think the worst though is happy Monday.
Rebecca (00:52):
How's your week going?
Jamie (00:53):
It's going, working on a lot of stuff.
So that's been good.
I feel like we should do anepisode on ai.
'cause I have a lot of things tosay about that too.
We both do.
I know.
but there was an article todaythat I read where, oh, I can't
remember the company now, but.
(01:13):
They actually like, I don't knowif you guys are doing this, but
they're actually like searchingall the different chat bots for
like their pillar pieces.
And so they're like saying Hey,what's the best article on this?
And seeing what the, becauseit's like you have to figure out
what AI thinks now, right?
Because that's what Google'sshowing is what AI thinks.
(01:35):
and so they're trying to likemodel their content around ai,
which is just like blowing mymind.
Vogue just used AI models intheir newest magazine,
apparently.
Oh, AI models.
Wow.
Wow.
That's crazy.
Rebecca (01:51):
Imagine this.
It was a busty blonde,
Jamie (01:53):
A busty blonde.
Really?
Huh?
Surely she wasn't like alsowhite.
Rebecca (01:58):
I have a surprise for you, Jamie.
Jamie (02:00):
What?
Rebecca (02:00):
She was so white
Jamie (02:01):
I am shook.
Oh yeah.
But
Rebecca (02:04):
after our LinkedIn, convo last week.
LinkedIn has been extra spicy inserving me up some of the most
unhinged crazy shit.
Jamie (02:13):
You've been?
Rebecca (02:14):
I sent you a couple screenshots of just but my
sister messaged me and was like,I love this.
I love this subreddit.
She goes, this is amazing.
Jamie (02:20):
Oh, nice.
good.
yeah, so, uh, I kind of, I got alittle upset and then fell into
the LinkedIn trap today.
Rebecca (02:29):
When you messaged me, I posted on LinkedIn.
I just had, I tied out, oh,Jamie, no.
And then delete, delete, delete.
I was just like, Jamie, why?
Jamie (02:39):
So a little background.
I was talking to mysister-in-law, who, basically is
an influencer on LinkedIn.
she's great.
I love her content.
We talked about it last week,but I was telling her about the
show last week and how we weremaking fun of the, this
executive editor of Forbes orYahoo or whatever, like posting.
(03:02):
here's what I learned from beinglike a digital nomad, but then
posted a photo of like them in abikini and like how cringe.
Yeah.
Hot dog legs, how cringe thatis.
And my sister-in-law was like,you think it's cringe, but do
you think it's cringe that likepeople make money because Aw,
(03:24):
thanks for the Resub Marina.
Thank you.
Hello.
and she's'cause that's the typeof thing that LinkedIn rewards
the algorithm is rewarding rightnow is like photos.
Especially if they're like, oflike you or a person.
I was this close to alsothrowing a selfie on that post
(03:44):
randomly.
I was gonna do it.
I was like, I'm gonna do thisfor science.
And then I couldn't.
I had one attached and I waslike, this doesn't make sense.
I was like, why would I attachthis to this?
But that's
Rebecca (03:56):
gross.
Jamie (03:56):
yes, it does.
I don't like it.
I don't like it at all.
And so I was
Rebecca (04:00):
And when she says that's how they make money, how
is that not like basicallyprofessional prostitution,
genuinely asking.
Jamie (04:06):
that's what I mean, in a way, and I don't mean this like
in a derogatory way, but in away that's kinda what being as
an influencer is, prostitution.
Rebecca (04:15):
I know, but when she says, it's do you have a problem
with the making money?
Yeah.
again, on LinkedIn, A, who areyou making money from?
Then B, that means someone ownsyou and you're not being totally
ethical and you're like, itjust, it feels it icky.
It feels icky.
I don't know.
Jamie (04:30):
that's being in an influencer though, That's why
we're not influencers.
Rebecca (04:34):
We have bad attitudes.
Jamie (04:35):
'cause we have bad attitudes.
That's pretty accurate.
anyway, I didn't tell you thatpart until just now, but Yeah, I
was like this close and I waslike, I can't, this feels too
much.
Rebecca (04:46):
I would have made fun of you for so many
Jamie (04:49):
No, but do you know why I was tempted?
'cause I was just like, forscience, let's see, let's see if
I like get better reach thannormal.
but maybe one day, one day whenthere's some sort of a segue and
not let me talk about things Ihate and then attach a photo of
myself.
Rebecca (05:06):
Was that what the post was on?
On things you hate?
Jamie (05:09):
it was just about we know how hard it is to find a job
right now.
And the post is just about, I'msick of hiring managers, asking
Rebecca (05:20):
things you hate there you,
Jamie (05:22):
hiring managers, asking so much of candidates, and then
also like candidates, like wearen't getting anything in
return.
And to be clear, like I've beenon both sides clearly.
Most recently, obviously lookingfor work and I'm on the
candidate side.
but yeah, and I, and in the postI just said, and there are two
things that I can post itsomewhere.
(05:43):
Where is it?
Rebecca (05:44):
with, fuck you, Robert.
Jamie (05:46):
no, Rebecca was disappointed that I didn't do
that, but that's fine.
I don't even know where it is.
Oh, I'll find it later.
Rebecca (05:52):
in the next week you can post about your new
diagnosis of multiplepersonality disorder.
Jamie (05:57):
Here we go.
No, but I said these are all thethings, the hiring because Okay,
what have we talked about likein past episodes, right?
So obviously you need yourresume.
Rebecca (06:08):
Mm-hmm.
Jamie (06:09):
sometimes you need your resume in a specific format and
that can differ.
Rebecca (06:13):
writing?
Yep.
portfolio
Jamie (06:16):
portfolio samples of your work.
Sometimes
Rebecca (06:19):
videos.
That was a thing.
Jamie (06:21):
oh, I forgot about that.
Even a lot of people are askingfor videos, like a short video,
or sometimes they say oh, just ashort little blurb about like
why you're the best person forthe job.
in addition to a cover letter.
Like to me it's that's what thecover letter is.
Rebecca (06:36):
That exactly.
That's exactly what a cover
Jamie (06:38):
And in the application, what else do you do?
You fill out all these detailsthat are already in your resume
that you sent them.
So like you're doing this extrawork as well.
There's nothing I hate more.
it just really grinds my gearsis like doing the same thing or
like doing extra work for noreason at all.
Rebecca (06:58):
It's inefficient.
They're inefficient systems andprocesses.
Jamie (07:01):
pisses me off.
But, and so I was listing allthese things, that people
expect, that hiring managers,companies expect from you.
And then I said, and there'sreally, I think only two things,
two major things that like we ascandidates like are asking of
you.
And one is, first and foremostlike respect and just common.
(07:22):
I think decency.
just email us back even if youhave it automated.
On like your side, like that'sgreat to like email back
candidates to be like, oh no,we're full.
Or, I'm so sorry.
And try to do so as soon aspossible.
I know people don't want tountil they have a candidate
completely lined up and signedand like they have they're
(07:44):
starting in two weeks.
But dear God, like I have somany friends and me who've sent
hundreds upon hundreds ofapplications and we don't even
hear back.
Rebecca (07:56):
like even a confirmation email saying if
we're interested in movingforward, do a whole more thanks
for sending it in.
we'll get back in touch.
Yeah, that would be nice.
Jamie (08:03):
yeah.
and so that I think is just,that's just like respect and
commend.
And then the second thing was ispost the fucking salary post.
The rate post, the pay post, thecompensation.
In the job description.
it's ridiculous.
And that just somebody hadcommented and they were like,
(08:23):
oh, I don't even apply to jobsthat don't list it.
And I was like, yeah, that's howI am.
Except like I really needed ajob.
So I took a chance on some andand had to just apply anyway.
especially if I thought it wassomething that was a really good
fit.
but I don't wanna do that.
And then that makes me thinkthat then what are we doing
then?
Are we preying on people whoare, I don't wanna say
(08:45):
desperate, but almost, yeah, youneed to survive, you need money.
and so they're like, we don'thave to put the pay.
We will just like rope people inand take'em through the process.
And
Rebecca (08:56):
And I was just, I just looked at like the states that
are required to put salary inand there's
Jamie (09:03):
a lot.
Rebecca (09:04):
like four, no.
14,
Jamie (09:06):
Yeah, I mean I think that's a lot like,
Rebecca (09:08):
oh no, sorry, more than 14.
I can't fucking read or scrolldown.
It's still not 51 though.
Or 50.
Wow.
It's been a long day.
it's
Jamie (09:16):
it's numbers,
Rebecca (09:17):
Is any state that starts with an A isn't even in
here at all.
it's just more of the like thequote unquote blue states that
have them.
Jamie (09:25):
Yeah.
Rebecca (09:26):
And so I mean there's just, to your point, if they're
desperate, I'll just take whatthey can get.
Jamie (09:32):
but also what that means is, so it's like actually
illegal and I had to talk abouta company I worked for about
this.
If you have a job and it's opento remote, and typically when
people say like remote, that canbe anywhere in the US for
example.
so if you're open to anycandidate from any state in
(09:53):
including these states where it.
Where it's the law that you haveto include the salary, then you
have to include the salary.
You have to,
Rebecca (10:02):
remo, so remote positions essentially?
Yeah.
Jamie (10:05):
They have to.
And people say oh no.
Like I think a lot of peoplethink if they're based in, a
certain state, like if thecompany's HQ is in a certain
state, it goes by those rules.
No, it goes by the rules of thecandidates that you will get and
Rebecca (10:19):
A company in Arizona, let's say if they post a remote
job, they would have to includethe salary,'cause someone from
California or Connecticut couldpossibly apply.
Jamie (10:27):
Yes.
Yes.
Exactly.
And I had this come up with likeat a company I worked for and I
was like, oh, hey, I noticed.
'cause I think I, it was myfirst time at that company
hiring somebody and I was like,oh, I noticed, like we don't put
this in our job.
Descriptions, we should do that.
And I was like, it's actuallyillegal since we're doing this
(10:48):
remote.
And I never heard back and neverheard back.
And I finally asked my managerabout it and I was like, Hey,
did the higher up say anythingabout this?
And if they're gonna include it?
And they decided they knew thatit was illegal, but they don't
care because apparently it'sjust a slap on the wrist if
(11:08):
they're like caught or somebody,tattles on them.
I don't know like how it works.
Rebecca (11:13):
is between 100 to 10,000 per violation.
That's a pretty wide range, andI'm
Jamie (11:19):
that is a really
Rebecca (11:20):
it's not gonna be 10,000.
So if it's 100 per hand slap,
Jamie (11:25):
Yeah.
They're like, oh, we don't care.
And it's, but to me, like that'sinsane.
To be like, I don't care thatthis is illegal.
Rebecca (11:32):
the bigger thought behind it do you think though?
what's the bigger thought ofthem being like, f fuck it.
Is it because they, that meansthey get away with paying people
less.
Jamie (11:39):
I think so.
And I also think somebody hadposted too on my post that it's
very it seems deceptive and likesecretive and that's really it.
And it's just yeah, to low ballpeople, ash and, again, talking
about things feeling gross, likethat's disgusting to me.
why would you not?
(11:59):
and if you're a hiring managerat a place where they're like,
oh, we don't do that.
Yeah, we know we're supposed to,but we don't put it in there.
I've never been given a straightanswer, I just assume it's to be
able to low ball people.
And especially now becausethat's what everybody's looking
to do.
they're laying off, their seniormost expert staff because they
(12:20):
get paid too much and they'retrying to hire people in that
don't have a lot of experience.
But we'll maybe do a decent jobfor half the pay.
Rebecca (12:29):
Yep.
Jamie (12:30):
What did Pat say here?
Rebecca (12:31):
I guess my question is if you were a company like that,
though.
And you have your competitorsout there.
Wouldn't you wanna hire the bestand the brightest in order to
beat your competitors?
Why would you roll the chanceson only getting applications
from people who aren't the bestof the best?
there are a lot of people outthere who's like I, they're not
listening to salary.
I'm not applying, like I'm notdoing that.
(12:52):
So why would you take thosechances of losing out on
potentially someone who canreally help or turn things
around or boost revenue orconversions?
Like what?
I guess that's the problem.
I guess that's what I reallyhave trouble wrapping my head
around.
Do they just not care?
This is a genuine question.
It's like I'm having funny, dothey just not care?
(13:13):
what is the reasoning behind it,do you think?
Jamie (13:15):
I don't know.
I think it must stem.
I, yeah, I think it must juststem from all this shame that
we've always had about money andtalking about money even with
our friends or with our familyor with like our coworkers,
especially oh, I would, I shouldbe making more than her, but I
bet she's making more than me.
And like I, we don't talk aboutit with each other.
(13:37):
And I.
Rebecca (13:38):
I think I've mentioned Ask a manager a few times, they
recently had a letter.
It was about someone who had ajob interview and asked about
afterwards, like asked about thesalary and benefits and they
told him that they were nolonger going to consider him
because it was so rude of him toask about the money that he
wants to be paying
Jamie (13:57):
That's what I'm saying.
I've been told that because Ialways ask, and I encourage
every single one of you to dothis.
Even if you're scared, do this.
Negotiate for yourself.
You are valuable.
You are so valuable, but justyou have to, if they don't, I
don't know if for some reasonthey don't have the salary or
(14:18):
pay listed and you apply anywayand you have an interview ask in
that first interview.
You don't have to wait.
You don't have to wait for themto bring it up.
Don't wait for them to bring itup.
You bring it up.
I've had that happen to methough, where I've brought it up
and somebody's been like, theydidn't like that.
I don't think it was veryexplicit that they weren't
moving forward with me becauseof that.
(14:38):
But it was very obvious to methat bothered
Rebecca (14:41):
And see, that's the thing.
It's like they want to hear, Ijust really wanna do this job
because I'm so fuckingpassionate about X, Y,
Jamie (14:48):
people need to live.
are you kidding me?
Rebecca (14:51):
Yes.
I need the Maslow's hierarchy ofneeds fulfilled, including
shelter and food.
Jamie (14:57):
Yeah.
I wanted to go back to some ofthe things that, pat said here
that I missed.
I saw some article also sayingthat places are cross checking
people's employment dates ontheir resume against their
LinkedIn.
I just feel like these job postsare just used as info farming
bullshit.
Yeah, and that could be too.
'cause there's a lot of that,especially on LinkedIn right
now.
Rebecca (15:17):
Is it also to train their AI systems though?
Do you think That's anotherthing I've heard going around is
it's meant to train their, likeAI hiring systems.
Jamie (15:25):
Yeah, but I also think that's so shitty.
It's just ugh.
It bothers me
Rebecca (15:31):
I worked at a place,
Jamie (15:33):
so much.
Rebecca (15:33):
no, I, I worked at a place where they just were like,
people wanna work here.
So we didn't have any job, likeroles open.
And they were just like, justpost that.
Like we have roles open andmaybe someone amazing will
apply, but you get all thesepeople who are just like, oh
yeah, but we didn't have the payon there.
We didn't have anything.
And it was like these peop wegot tons and tons of
applications for a job thatdidn't exist.
(15:55):
and, but that was a smallcompany.
So I think the rules of paydidn't.
Apply to them, but still like itwas just weird.
was it just to see who's themost desperate, I don't know.
It's weird.
Jamie (16:05):
Yeah, it just really seems like what Pat said, they
treat us Jesus.
There's that because they treatus like cogs that they can just
keep changing out and thenpocket the extra, that's exactly
what's happening and
Rebecca (16:17):
Except it costs more money to fire people and replace
them.
Or I guess, you know what, Iguess if you're not get paid,
getting paid a fair salary,maybe it isn't expensive because
they already saved money, notpaying you the amount you
deserve to be
Jamie (16:30):
They don't pay you the amount, you're the quite the
amount you deserve to be paidand then they bring in someone
else that they can pay even lessthan they deserve to be paid.
My god.
What do you mean you care moreabout the money than the
privilege to work here?
Yeah, that's been told to me.
We've talked about that before.
That's been told to us, like atcompanies we've already been at.
(16:50):
When we were asking to becompensated for, a role change
or a promotion, it's,
Rebecca (16:57):
And if you are applying with a company who gets
squirrely about you asking thefirst interview, that means that
you're likely not going to gofar salary wise if you do get a
job there, if they're that way,when you don't work there about
money conversations, it's likelynot going to be better.
Jamie (17:13):
no.
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
I didn't even think of that partof it.
Abso fucking, absolutely.
Rebecca (17:17):
And then to your point about people being weird to talk
about money, when you actuallydo have the job, if you're not
unionized, there's a lot of husharound salary and people
surprisingly don't talk abouthow much they make, which I
think is a mistake.
Jamie (17:34):
I think it's scary too.
This might be a good opportunityfor me to talk about, when we
worked at SLH, the company thatwe met at, I remember being on
the phone with our friend Kate.
She just got hired as the HRdirector there.
Like she just got hired.
This was like, I had alreadypretty much got the job, but she
(17:55):
had just started and they stillwanted her to talk to me.
So I was on the phone with herand she had said something to
the effect of, she was just liketelling me more like I was
asking questions and she wastelling me more about, what they
offer and what it's like.
And she had me mentioned thatthey had this completely
transparent, salary formula, inwhich not only was it
(18:18):
transparent, showing the formulaof how everyone is paid, to
show.
That everyone's being paidequal, including, living in LA
versus living in Kentucky orTennessee or wherever.
like I would get more,'cause Ilive in California'cause my cost
of living, so it would factor inthe cost of living.
but they also had this giantspreadsheet where everyone's
(18:42):
salary was on there from the CEOall the way down.
So everyone knew what everyonemade.
If you went to see, it's notlike you had to go look, but I
think who wouldn't, when, thisis the first time I'd ever come
across a company that did that.
And and I don't even know what Isaid, but she could tell that I
was ugh.
Because I was like, that's, itwas uncomfortable.
(19:03):
It was very uncomfortable.
And I think she said, she waslike, yeah, I know it's
uncomfortable.
She's I've never been at a placethat does this before either.
She's but I think it's a goodthing and.
Now, I wish everybody did that.
it was great.
I don't even, I don't even thinkthat it should have had as big
of an effect on everyone and howwe all felt about being paid and
(19:27):
being paid fairly as it did.
I think just like having thatout there and being upfront,
even the CEO, like this is whatthe CEO's making and, it's just
fair.
And then it's like when you knowyou're being paid fairly and you
don't have to like, question itconstantly, which we do a lot,
because we're not being paidfairly most of the time.
Rebecca (19:49):
Do you?
So for me, I just rip thebandaid off where I've been.
I just tell people what I'mmaking or like people who I know
are applying, here's what I'mmaking, here's what you should
expect.
Because it's the only way that Iknow to do my part as far as
them possibly making a fairsalary and something equal to
that or similar.
(20:10):
and you mentioned earlier thereare so many articles out there
who are like women.
You should talk to each otherabout your salaries more, which
fair?
But really, men should betalking to women about their
salaries.
Because historically and evencurrently, they still make more
than women for the same roles,even though they're not supposed
to do.
Somehow they do.
(20:30):
And so if men were a little morevocal in that and were
Jamie (20:34):
Allies.
Rebecca (20:35):
allies.
Exactly.
So
Jamie (20:38):
We need more.
More men Feminists.
Male feminists please.
Rebecca (20:41):
As much as the amount of shit that I give the people
of that company that we weretalking about, that's the first
time I've ever seen anyone inthat position of power who were
two men, two white men actually,who were doing something like
that.
So I have to give them the bareminimum award.
Ladies and gentlemen.
Yay.
Bare minimum.
Yay.
(21:02):
No.
Like I have to
Jamie (21:02):
just like the award for best hugger.
that's what they gave Rebecca,you guys, she hates
Rebecca (21:08):
Best Tucker.
yeah, so that's the first placeI've seen that done.
Jamie (21:11):
Okay?
Rebecca (21:12):
It's never been at women led companies, have never
worked at a company that didthat was led by women.
So they did set the bar.
They did set the bar on what Iexpected and have never gotten
ever again at any company.
Jamie (21:26):
Yep.
Yeah, same.
And it was like, and that was, Ithink there are.
A, like a good handful that Iknow of companies, like bigger
companies that do that.
And, but you just never seethat.
So I'm not asking for that whenI'm talking about pay
transparency, but I would lovethat.
Like I am such an advocate forthat.
Like I think that would begreat.
(21:47):
I think somebody posted, Ishould add that too.
I should have put that on myLinkedIn post.
this one guy did all of thisresearch.
He was a freelance writer andhad written for a ton of like
big name websites and companiesand he put together a
spreadsheet showing liketypically this is what they pay,
(22:08):
like including like this muchfor this number of words.
Or this company pays per word,this company pays a flat fee of
500, like this and that.
And I thought that was amazingthat somebody put that together
because that's super helpful forfreelancers when I.
When I first startedfreelancing, recently, this
(22:30):
year.
Yeah.
Rebecca, I had to ask Rebecca'cause I technically really have
never freelanced before,technically, and I had to ask
her, what should my rate be?
And what should I be factoringin?
And she was very helpful.
And like you said, that wasgreat you sharing that info with
me.
I don't think I share what Imake with first of all, just
(22:51):
anyone and not unprompted.
if like I had a friend that waslike, Hey, what do you make?
I would probably tell them, orespecially if it's
Rebecca (23:00):
I meant, sorry.
I meant with like coworkers.
I'm sorry.
I didn't mean just
Jamie (23:04):
oh.
Rebecca (23:04):
Hey friend, I'm sorry.
I meant with like coworkers,like someone who's in the same
job title as you, or likesomeone's in a role that you've
been in, so you can tell themlike what to expect.
I'm sorry, misspoke.
Jamie (23:15):
Oh no, that's okay.
Rebecca (23:17):
go to CVS and be like, Hey, guess how much money I
make?
Jamie (23:20):
that's what I was saying.
That's why I was like, Iwouldn't do it unprompted, but
like I didn't think that's whatyou meant, but I just wanted to,
I was specifying for me.
Rebecca (23:28):
I would like a cheeseburger and fries.
And would you like to know howmuch money I make a year?
Jamie (23:32):
No, it's not even would you?
It's and I make
Rebecca (23:35):
Let me tell
Jamie (23:36):
I make a hundred thousand dollars.
yeah, that's great.
I think, I don't wanna, I'm notgonna name names, but somebody I
know that I'm very close with,actually was sick of seeing
people get paid fairly at thecompany they worked at or
getting paid on unfairly.
Yes, I did, actually.
I misspoke.
(23:56):
and.
They started like secretly likestarting a spreadsheet to just
be like, Hey, this is why Ibelieve in pay transparency.
And I think it'd be cool if wedid it.
You don't have to, but if youfeel comfortable, add, and
slowly, employees started likeadding to this spreadsheet and
so they were sharing with eachother.
Sure.
There were some that were like,no, I'm not gonna do that.
(24:17):
And I don't think management orthe exec team liked that too
much, but like they never shutit down.
and this is a pretty open-mindedplace, so I'm surprised that
they didn't just go for it.
And maybe they have by now, Idon't know.
But like even doing somethinglike that, like it's not,
there's nothing wrong with that.
Rebecca (24:37):
What about companies who reevaluate what you make
each year and bring you up tolike market?
market pay, because I haven'thad a lot of companies, but, so
where I work, they do that, andthat was totally new to me.
Like I've never had, and it'snot like an a hundred extra
dollars, like they will bump youup if that's what you're, you
need to be bumped up and, that'sanother.
(24:59):
I'm just trying to figure outlike what to say, what to, like,
how to phrase it, but it's just,again, being so open about
here's how much money we'regoing to pay you and here's how
much more money we're gonna payyou is just not a conversation
Jamie (25:11):
knowing that so like that, like I definitely don't
see that, and I know this isn'twhat you were saying, but I
definitely don't see that assomething that should be in like
the job description.
But I think that would be greatif they were like, and we do,
yearly reviews, just like theysay like in bonuses and, But
during the interview process,like you should know that, you
should know exactly, what thepossibilities are for you to
(25:36):
move up in the company and getpromoted and the possibilities
for your compensation toincrease.
And that can be like your salaryfor sure, but also like little
cost of living.
oh my God, that's what I was sofrustrated with when I was laid
off and looking for jobs is thatall these jobs that I had been
doing and getting paid likedecently well for, it was like
(26:01):
some of these were like 70, 60%of that.
And so it was this massive paycut and I'm just like, this is
setting me back so far.
this was me like six years ago,six, seven years ago.
Rebecca (26:17):
I wonder too if just because of the current
environment they're in,companies feel comfortable, like
just asking for more and payingless.
they know people are out thereand desperate.
Jamie (26:27):
Yeah.
Rebecca (26:27):
They know that it's really difficult to find a job,
but I also don't know how,because just.
Journalism.
I don't know how otherindustries are.
Maybe it's just like what we'reseeing, like content people and
are, I would love to hear ifother industries are dealing
with the same thing, likegetting less from, getting more
for less.
Jamie (26:45):
actually interesting.
Rebecca (26:48):
also industries out there who are like unionized.
electricians, plumbers, the waymy sisters talks, my sister
talks about it, with her union.
It's like they're very openabout it and they make sure you
make at least x amount ofdollars and they show you how
much money you're going to makeas you progress throughout your
career.
And it's so like once you hitthis mark, then you're gonna
make this much money.
And once you hit this, you'regonna make this much money.
(27:09):
oh, see, are we talking about,we can't be talking about
unionizing, but also that's whypeople unionize.
I.
Jamie (27:16):
it's just, I guess
Rebecca (27:18):
There
Jamie (27:18):
patriarchy and consumerism.
Rebecca (27:20):
like New York, I think it's New York State has a
freelancers union.
I don't know if all the stateshave, and I don't know if you
have to live in New York tojoin, but there is a freelancers
union.
Jamie (27:28):
Oh yeah.
I did hear about that, but Idon't know much about it.
Rebecca (27:31):
Yeah.
And they do have like healthservices.
Actually, I'll just put it inthe chat.
Jamie (27:36):
I'm actually,
Rebecca (27:37):
they offer your insurance.
Jamie (27:40):
in my head right now.
Hi, Rob.
Hi.
Welcome.
I like now I'm just like,Rebecca, we're journalists.
Let's do this.
Like massive.
I'm sure somebody has done one,but I wanna do like a massive
study on pay transparency and Iwant to find out like who does
it and what their turnover rateis and what in industries have
(28:05):
better pay transparency.
if you're an engineer lookingfor a job, is your salary always
in that jd or the jobdescription or, or not?
Because you're right.
Rebecca (28:16):
great idea.
which makes me think some people
Jamie (28:19):
Yeah, that's what I said.
Yeah, I think, I'm sure.
I
Rebecca (28:21):
oh, sorry.
I'm sorry.
I was Googling, interesting.
So tech, okay, so tech is listedas like one with very strong
patron transparency, which.
Makes a lot of sense because Iguess for those you, I guess for
those you do wanna attract thebest of the best, especially if
you're a startup and or like amajor tech conglomerate, that,
that does make sense.
HR also government, and also Ithink government job jobs are
(28:45):
different, right?
Like government, jobs, I cannottalk today,
Jamie (28:48):
happens.
Rebecca (28:49):
it's just been hours of meetings all week long.
Sorry.
Governments have, likegovernment jobs have to post the
salaries, right?
aren't there federal laws wherethat has to be posted?
Jamie (28:58):
I don't know that for sure.
That sounds correct to me.
But,
Rebecca (29:03):
government.
Jamie (29:04):
I dunno the laws on that.
And I know it's at a state leveltoo, it's not all states, Ash
says, yes, government salarieshave to be public.
They're public, but does thatmean they have to include them
on the job description, Iwonder?
Rebecca (29:19):
Yeah, but then you, you can just look it up to get an
idea.
that's at least more paidtransparent.
Oh, and that's the other thing Iwanted to, I knew what I wanted
to mention.
So there are like, what is it,ZipRecruiter and Glassdoor out
there, they list the averagesalary.
And there have been multipletimes where I like think I, I've
gone in and we're not, are youfucking, no, that's far too
high.
We will not be paying that.
(29:39):
And it's like the average salaryand
Jamie (29:42):
I always find those to be very low on like Glassdoor at
least.
Hey Shep.
Rebecca (29:48):
yeah, I've had people low balling, but this was also,
I don't even know how many yearsago.
so things might have changed,but I don't know.
Jamie (29:56):
As someone who's been looking for a job, Rebecca.
I'm just kidding.
Rebecca (30:00):
Yeah.
Wow.
Again, another episode of thingswe don't
Jamie (30:03):
Yeah, I just, I got a little riled up about it and
there's so much more I want,that's like Jamie's wishlist for
pay transparency for everybody,at every company.
But yeah, I just, I think likebare minimum, especially because
it's the law.
If you're hiring remote fromanywhere in the us, put the
(30:27):
compensation in there, put thepay, don't put like,
compensation is commiseratewith, Ty, blah, blah,
Rebecca (30:34):
Oh, that, yes.
Oh, and then they ask you thenthey're not, wait, they're not,
that's they're not allowed toask you.
What you make, but they areallowed to ask you like what's
your ideal salary?
Which is,
Jamie (30:45):
do that.
Rebecca (30:46):
so you're right.
So you're weeded outPotentially.
But sometimes they're only likethe fields I've come up with
where it's you can only enter anumber.
you can't enter comm, measure itwith experience.
Jamie (30:56):
Oh, they can say that they cannot post the salary, and
they can tell you that's what itis.
But then when they ask you Yeah.
On your job application, it'slike a dropdown and you have to
like, choose
Rebecca (31:07):
And it's required.
Yes, and it's required.
Like you can't move forwardwithout hitting it.
I was like, oh my God.
Jamie (31:13):
I'm like, I'll put the top one, I'll put the highest.
and yeah, not everyone doesthose dropdowns, but those,
especially, those are fucked up.
Usually it's like a box and inthe box I say like I put, I
literally put like TBD, I'll belike TBDI do.
That's what I do.
Like it's that why, I'm notkidding.
That why I never got an emailback.
Rebecca (31:34):
CPD.
Jamie (31:35):
it's TBD.
It's like we're gonna discussit.
I'm not just gonna,
Rebecca (31:40):
apparently we're not gonna discuss it because that's
considered rude.
Also, in a very tangential vein,I found out that some high
managers have what's called thecoffee cup test, where they
offer you something to drinkduring your interview, and then
if you just leave afterwards, orif you just leave the cup or you
don't like, either offer to putit in the sink or throw it away,
they won't
Jamie (32:01):
Who's doing in-person interviews right now?
still, that's my question.
I know
Rebecca (32:06):
I don't
Jamie (32:06):
it's still a thing, but that's awful
Rebecca (32:09):
I know.
And I saw it on TikTok and I waslike, no, that can't be a thing.
And I was reading all thecomments.
I was like, oh my God, it issuch a thing.
It's not even funny.
Holy crap.
Jamie (32:17):
your gu.
These candidates are your guest.
Rebecca (32:19):
That's what so many people put, and they were like,
we're the guests like we are inyour home.
So the mindset is already thereon, they don't consider them
guests.
They consider them, you shouldbe grateful
Jamie (32:30):
it's just people being unhappy.
you're unhappy.
You've always had to, in thework before you got paid for it,
you've always had to do this,and so they, they don't want
that for other people, it'slike, I never had that,
Rebecca (32:44):
that you had that boss.
Remember you had the boss whoyou were like, who was like, I
had to work for free basicallyuntil I, like I was able to get
this salary.
And so even when there is quoteunquote transparency, the
conversations are still stuckway back when.
And these weird mindsets on whatsalary actually is and how much
you deserve.
Jamie (33:04):
Fuck you.
I got mine.
Just it's, yeah, it's insane.
It's just, and I think, okay,like at a state level, yes, that
would be great if all across theUS this was a thing and it had
to be you, like it was illegal.
For anybody not to put thesalary, that would be wonderful.
But I also think like it's up tothe hiring manager.
(33:27):
Because even if you're at acompany to an extent,'cause even
if you're at a company thatdoesn't do that, and says oh no,
we never put salary in our jobdescriptions.
We don't do that.
We don't do that.
I think it's up to you to say,Hey, wait a minute, why?
That's really not great.
don't we want to attract theright people and like the right
person for the job, andsometimes too this
Rebecca (33:49):
what I was saying, like what if we get a subpar
candidate?
Is it just bleed that stone tillit's dry and then get another
one?
what is the point?
Jamie (33:57):
it's not great.
Rebecca (33:58):
Jamie, how do we change this?
Jamie (34:00):
Don't put that on me.
Fuck.
Rebecca (34:02):
that's what I, that's what I mean.
the pay transparency startedthat we experienced in 2017,
which is almost 10 years ago,and I've never experienced it
again.
So it's not like something thatgot better or, it's not like
something that spread.
and I've worked at a lot ofcompanies since then, so I, who
pushes for it?
Is it the hiring?
Is it, to your point, the hiringmanagers, is it hr?
(34:24):
is it the people who run thecompany?
who
Jamie (34:26):
think it's all of us.
I think everybody in everyposition at every level, should
be doing something about it.
And a lot of times it's likesomething small, like I said,
like just bringing up to likeyour executive team or HR say
Hey, your recruitment team,whoever, Hey, I noticed we don't
do this.
And first of all, this isillegal, but second, since you
(34:48):
don't seem to care about that,like these are the reasons like
we'll get better people.
Likely.
not, that's not always true.
because I do think people arejust talking about money,
especially when it comes toprofessionally.
Is scary and people are afraidto do it.
People are afraid to ask whatthe pay is.
People are afraid to negotiate.
(35:10):
People just wanna take whatthey're given.
Even though, like when theyoffer you a salary, I would say
98% of the time you cannegotiate and get more.
Sometimes that may not be juststraight to your salary.
Sometimes that may benegotiating a signing bonus or,
some other benefits that theygive, but
Rebecca (35:31):
and that's where the mindset of who you are as a
worker needs to shift.
Except in today's currentclimate, that's likely not going
to happen.
But instead of you knowing yourworth, a lot of people are
afraid of oh, I don't get this.
we're so tight with salaries,we're living paycheck to
paycheck.
Most of America that it's like,if I don't get this job, I
(35:52):
default on my car loan, or Idefault on
Jamie (35:53):
that's what I'm saying.
Rebecca (35:54):
And so they're terrified.
And if everyone was like,actually, you need workers.
And if we all decided no, we'renot gonna do it, then that would
change.
But because there aren't,
Jamie (36:06):
Yeah.
Rebecca (36:06):
too many people are hurting.
So it's just, it's never, it'snot gonna get better anytime
soon.
Jamie (36:12):
this is depressing.
Rebecca (36:14):
I know again,
Jamie (36:14):
and we all die at the end of this, so
Rebecca (36:17):
Rob was like, are you guys playing, hitting animals
afterwards?
Jamie (36:20):
hitting animals.
Rebecca (36:22):
I was like, we hitting animals?
And I was like, that's
Jamie (36:25):
No.
Rebecca (36:25):
hitting animals.
It's no,
Jamie (36:27):
Now we sound like terrible people.
Rebecca (36:29):
I know.
I was like, that's not even,
Jamie (36:30):
Fuck you, Robert.
Rebecca (36:31):
know.
Jamie (36:32):
Fuck you, Rob.
Rebecca (36:33):
I was like, no, but also that's not the name.
But that's very funny.
But yeah, just not enough peopleare talking about it, not people
are having conversations and,okay, see, again, I keep
thinking we're, I, I keeprealizing we're talking
ourselves into communism.
'cause if the whole countrydecided to do that, but then
that's fucking communism andpeople who are afraid of that.
So that's again, not gonnahappen.
Jamie (36:52):
Yeah, Ash says, and even as many of us hurt from our
paychecks, too many peoplecontinue licking the boots of
our corporate overlords.
We need to take our power back.
Yeah, it's true.
And but it's I don't faultpeople for doing that.
because sometimes that's just aresponse to, trauma and also
just I really need this job.
(37:13):
I can't do anything that might,change that.
Like I don't wanna piss anybodyoff.
and I understand
Rebecca (37:20):
there are a large, I'm sorry.
I say there are a large numberof people out there who don't
want you to make as much moneyas they do.
Like they, they genuinely don'twant you to make as much and
they want to make more.
And they're not ever going to,raise all boats.
They don't wanna do any of that.
And that's just, I think thewhole American, me mindset,
Jamie (37:41):
it's sad, man.
Rebecca (37:42):
just.
It's ugly and sad, and yet weare stuck and unable to do
anything about it.
Jamie (37:49):
Yeah.
I don't know.
Maybe I'll go journalist, Jamieand do some crazy extensive
study.
Rebecca (37:56):
look at the US labor and statistics, and just break
that out.
You should break that out by, byindustry and then go from there.
But see, that's average though.
That's the thing that's average.
Those are averages and that'snot I dunno how we're gonna do
this.
Jamie (38:09):
Yeah.
Rebecca (38:10):
you have a project to work on.
Jamie (38:12):
I'm more referring to the people who act like temporarily
embarrassed millionaires and whowill never have the money of the
1% than the rest of us who aretraumatized,
Rebecca (38:22):
Temper.
Oh, no.
I'm a little rich now.
Don't look at me.
Jamie (38:25):
temporarily Embarrassed millionaires.
Yeah.
Rebecca (38:29):
Yep.
Again, I try to do what I can.
I work at a company that's alsovery open about pay, which I'm
very grateful for, but that is alarge company.
It's not a startup.
It's not a little company thatdoesn't have to follow those
laws.
And actually, maybe that's thething.
If it's a big enough companywhere you could really get a
payout if you know you werefined, or if someone did decide
(38:49):
to sue for not having that kindof information, maybe that's
what it is they're more likelyto follow the laws because they
have more to lose.
Jamie (38:57):
Wait, who are you talking about?
Who has more to lose,
Rebecca (38:59):
I'm talking about so I know our company is very good
about pay transparency, but it'sa very large company.
So I'm wondering if like, whenyou have large companies like
that, they're more likely to,they're more likely to do
something like that because ifsomeone were to li litigate
against them than they wouldhave a lot more to
Jamie (39:14):
right?
Rebecca (39:15):
plus they typically have more jobs, so there's more
potentials for fines.
I don't know.
I'm just trying to think about
Jamie (39:20):
Like why?
Yeah.
Rebecca (39:22):
we should have Kate on genuine.
Like I would genuinely love totalk to Kate about this and I
feel
Jamie (39:26):
so busy, but I would love to,
Rebecca (39:28):
I know we should talk to an HR professional'cause they
could, instead of us just going,woo, we don't know.
We should probably talk tosomeone who does
Jamie (39:35):
One thing I should point out that I had forgotten, I'm
pretty sure that having todisclose salary is only for
companies that are like morethan, I wanna say,
Rebecca (39:46):
people.
Jamie (39:47):
2015,
Rebecca (39:48):
I think so some of'em were 15, maybe it varies by
state.
I'm not
Jamie (39:52):
So if we were hiring for the Burnout Collective, for
example, we wouldn't have to,but would we?
Abso fucking Absolutely.
Of course we would, but, ugh.
Rebecca (40:00):
Oh, some of'em are just, some of them are like with
just at least one employee.
So Colorado, it's like you haveto, if you have even one
employee, you have to post it.
Jamie (40:07):
good for them.
Rebecca (40:08):
that's great.
Jamie (40:09):
Yeah.
Rebecca (40:10):
Hawaii is at least 50, but most of them are between one
to 15.
that's nice though.
You have to work there.
Jamie (40:18):
people.
Followed that, if people stuckto that.
Yeah.
I don't know what it is.
It does, it really just feelslike ego and it's, I don't know.
Rebecca (40:30):
I dunno if it's ego, I just, I think it's no regard and
kind of carelessness and it'slike we might, we've been
getting away with it for Xnumber, we're not gonna or
people saying it's not reallyimportant.
Kinda like compliance rules.
it's not really employer.
Like I've had people say that,but it, that's what I mean, is
Jamie (40:44):
you get
Rebecca (40:44):
of that laissez-faire attitude?
So
Jamie (40:47):
yeah,
Rebecca (40:47):
Or if there, or are the higher ups being like, if you
don't post it, if you have to,
Jamie (40:52):
yeah.
Gross.
And I think it's just, it's thatstigma too.
I think a lot of people likedon't even know the reason.
Like even some exec teams, ifyou were to ask, just be like
one, which is my
Rebecca (41:05):
because that's how it's always been,
Jamie (41:06):
That's how it's always been.
Yeah.
My fucking favorite answer ever.
it was at one company where thatwas their answer to me.
Anytime I brought up a way tostreamline a process or change
something for the better, tomake everything easier for
everybody, I'm like, why do wedo it this way?
Why don't we do it this way?
we've just always done it thatway.
(41:26):
I was like, guys, be better.
Do better.
Listen to yourselves.
Rebecca (41:32):
Yeah, I don't know.
I wish we had more, like moreinformation or a better
conclusion about this, butagain, it seems to be that we
are at the mercy of
Jamie (41:42):
Our corporate
Rebecca (41:42):
right now, and it's not the other way around.
Jamie (41:44):
yeah, that's always how it is and how it's been.
Rebecca (41:47):
We're just gonna change the name of this pod to why not
communism?
Jamie (41:50):
Or maybe communism.
Maybe communism,
Rebecca (41:53):
How about communism?
Jamie (41:55):
commie question mark.
Rebecca (41:56):
And here's the question, why?
Again, like I just, I, I can't,I continue to try to think my
way around this and I stillcannot wrap my head around
someone not wanting to helpsomeone else
Jamie (42:08):
Yeah,
Rebecca (42:09):
and Gate keeping that kind of information and not
wanting,
Jamie (42:13):
it is very gatekeeper.
Yeah.
Rebecca (42:15):
Yeah.
Do you perceive others as athreat and they could
potentially take over your job?
if you bring them up with you, Ijust, again,
Jamie (42:23):
why I say ego.
That's why I say it's ego too,not wholly, I think that's just
part of it that's people feelingthreatened.
like when my manager, when I waslike, oh yeah, what's the comp
increase for me taking on X, Y,and Z responsibilities in
addition to what I've beendoing?
Oh, you need to learn to, workfor it and like then we'll
(42:44):
compensate you.
That's what I did.
I worked my way up and I showedthem that's not how it's
supposed to work.
Rebecca (42:52):
I need to be like, I hate to break it to you, but you
were also taken advantage
Jamie (42:55):
Yeah.
Rebecca (42:56):
they were a person of color too, right?
Like they weren't a white guy,which, so they were exploited
too.
That makes it like double worse.
Jamie (43:04):
Yeah.
Rebecca (43:05):
That's such a bummer.
Jamie (43:07):
We just have to refuse to be complicit in our own
exploitation.
Ladies and gentlemen,
Rebecca (43:14):
Yep.
Again, communism question mark.
Jamie (43:17):
communism.
It's like one of those six feetunder commercials that they used
to do at the beginning of theseries.
They stopped doing that, Ithink, didn't they?
In the series?
I didn't like that they stoppedthat.
Rebecca (43:28):
Are you spoiling something for me, Jamie?
I think you just spoiled a TVshow for
Jamie (43:33):
I did not,
Rebecca (43:34):
No spoilers.
No spoilers about that25-year-old show.
Jamie (43:38):
it's also not a spoiler.
'cause I would never, Rebecca, Iwould never Communism.
Yes,
Rebecca (43:44):
I would actually like us to, so I just, we can talk
more with Mike, but I actuallythink you and I should play
journalist and I would like todo a follow up episode on our
own show about this,
Jamie (43:55):
Yeah.
Rebecca (43:56):
right now I feel a little too dumb cu talking, even
though it's not, but I'm justlike,
Jamie (44:00):
Yeah,
Rebecca (44:00):
I wanna have numbers, like I wanna have numbers, you
know what I mean?
And then I wanna be likecommunist.
So I do I, yeah, I think weshould have that.
I would really love to do thatwith you.
Jamie (44:10):
Yeah, I would too.
Rebecca (44:11):
oh my God.
We get to do writing.
Research journalism, andactually as I'm saying this out
loud and realizing we have ourown discord, there's nothing
stopping us from creatingsomething similar like we have
friends in similar industries,or we could even start our own
database to start gatheringinformation
Jamie (44:29):
That's actually really cool.
Rebecca (44:30):
positions.
State to state,
Jamie (44:32):
should do that.
That should be part of it.
Rebecca (44:34):
all three of our listeners let us,
Jamie (44:36):
email us at.
podcast@burnoutcollective.com.
Tell us.
Rebecca (44:42):
can have an open Google sheet.
Why don't we, hold on, let'sjust, let's start like an open
sheet, we'll start a thing.
We'll organize it first, but Ireally do think that would be
Jamie (44:50):
It should be a form
Rebecca (44:51):
useful and helpful.
Jamie (44:53):
Yeah,
Rebecca (44:54):
Cool.
No, I like that a
Jamie (44:55):
be awesome.
Let's do that.
Look.
Look at us doing
Rebecca (45:00):
We turn that around.
I'm proud of us.
Turn that around.
'cause it was, I was like, Idon't wanna sit here and bitch
and moan, but I feel like Idon't know what to do either.
But this, again, I think it'sjust information.
I, it's the lack of informationand I want and people
Jamie (45:14):
It is.
Yeah.
What do they say?
Information's power.
Knowledge is power.
Rebecca (45:18):
I forgot where I read it, but someone was like, if you
are the only person who, peoplewho knows how to do that one
thing and you are not allowed togo on vacation, you're not
getting paid enough.
Jamie (45:27):
Never be the only person who can do something.
Rebecca (45:30):
that's the kind of mentality I want people if when
they're asking for salary, youdeserve so much money for what
you do.
And to not be afraid.
And I wish we were there yet,we're not there yet.
companies unfortunately stillhold the cards or whatever was
said, but I would like to beable to get to a point where
people show up asking for theirvalue.
Jamie (45:49):
Yeah.
That's hard to do.
But also if any of you everneed.
Advice on doing that, whetherlike negotiating a salary or a
raise or asking for a raise and'cause there is that stigma.
I was like that too, and it tooka fucking white man to, tell me
like, no, you need to be doingthis.
(46:10):
Don't tell them how much youexpect.
They need to give you a numberand then you work off that.
Now though, I will tell themwhat I expect and what I expect
is like on the fucking high end,because if you're gonna ask me,
that's what I expect.
but I get that it's hard and itis scary.
And I think that's one of the, Idon't wanna say problems, but I
(46:33):
think that's a big part of it,is that a lot of people are
afraid for different reasons to
Rebecca (46:40):
Because enough people have lost opportunities because
they dared to ask.
And so again, I would sayproportionally it's smaller, but
those are the ones that stickout of you, and people don't
wanna be that one person wholost out on a job opportunity.
Jamie (46:53):
Yeah, I like this
Rebecca (46:55):
It sucks that there's a level of fear.
I'm also wondering
Jamie (46:58):
be clear.
I don't like this.
I'm just what we're gonna do, goon.
Rebecca (47:01):
Again, I'm wondering if there's any, anything into how
people are raised, if it's in areligion or if it's in a
religious household and the waythat money is talked about or
not talked about, and how theremight be not a lot of critical
thinking skills, or you'retaught to what is it?
Like work with a happy heart.
Do you know what I mean?
Like you're taught all thesethings that don't.
I'm
Jamie (47:20):
I know.
I know you're serious.
But I'm gonna start saying thatto you.
If like you complain aboutsomething, you're like, Ugh, I
hate this.
I'm gonna be like, Rebecca, youshould really be working with a
happy heart right now.
Rebecca (47:31):
Yeah, but I, so there's a, there's an inherent guilt for
people to either ask for moremoney or feel like they deserve
more because it's I should justbe happy.
Do you know what I mean?
So I think there's a lot thereto, to figure out, like, why, I
swear to God, if we and thispodcast and someone's already
written this thesis paper, I'mgonna be so fucking mad.
Jamie (47:49):
I'm sure there's studies and like I want us to use those,
like to our benefit and toinclude that.
But I don't know if someone didexactly what we're thinking.
Maybe they did.
Rebecca (48:00):
Alright.
Jamie (48:00):
shit, what was I just gonna tell you?
Oh look, it's the raccoonreport.
Rebecca (48:04):
I'm not reading that.
Jamie (48:05):
what, come on.
While you were talking, therewas something I thought of.
Rebecca (48:09):
God punishing you for saying you're gonna tell me to
have a happy heart.
Every time I complain,
Jamie (48:13):
Rebecca, please.
Really, you should just beworking with a happy heart.
Rebecca (48:17):
God's already punishing us.
What are you talking
Jamie (48:19):
And also yeah.
why do you think we only havethree listeners?
We're just kidding.
We love you guys.
We love you so much.
Rebecca (48:25):
We love all
Jamie (48:26):
just very self-deprecating.
the bot summary of my commentsis sending me dead.
Yeah.
Dead.
Dead.
Yeah.
Rebecca (48:34):
we are still working on getting guests for our next two
episodes.
Jamie (48:37):
If you'd like to be a guest, please let
Rebecca (48:40):
you know what?
We should also reach out toMorgan,'cause Morgan is in HR
and like talent development andtalent.
Yeah.
We should also reach out toMorgan.
I feel like Morgan would havesome good answers for this too.
Jamie (48:51):
And Kate?
Yeah.
Aw, thanks Ash.
Yeah, that's all I got.
Now let's go work on this.
Rebecca (48:57):
that feeling.
Thank you guys for joining us.
We really appreciate it.
we're on episode 33, which iscrazy to me.
So
Jamie (49:04):
doing it.
Rebecca (49:04):
we're,
Jamie (49:05):
so happy.
We're so neuro divergent andwe're yeah, we're even LinkedIn
official.
We're not hiding it anymore.
Rebecca (49:11):
We came out on LinkedIn.
Jamie (49:13):
Oh my God.
We did.
It's true.
yeah, so follow the BurnoutCollective on LinkedIn.
there's nothing
Rebecca (49:19):
Joiner discard
Jamie (49:20):
even know how to add Rebecca to the group.
yeah, join our discard.
and we love talking about thisstuff too.
So if you're listening to thisand you're like, oh, I have so
much to say, and I have opinionson this and this, and feel free,
email us or, if you can contactus in another way, if you're
like a good friend and you wannatext us or Discord message us,
please join the Discord.
(49:41):
And, talk about it there, let'sdiscuss it there.
we would love that.
Rebecca (49:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Please do.
Jamie (49:48):
And tell us how much money you make.
I'm just kidding.
all right, everybody, thank youso much.
Rebecca (49:54):
Go away.
We're done.
Jamie (49:55):
Goodbye.
Rebecca (49:57):
I stole my favorite.
Sign up for yours.
Go away.
We're done.
Jamie (49:59):
I don't even know why I said that.
Rebecca (50:01):
I don't either, but still my favorite.
Jamie (50:03):
All right, Finn.
Rebecca (50:04):
Okay, love you.
Bye.
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