Never shut your pie hole

This week our guest is Robin Saks Frankel who Jamie worked with at her last job. After Jamie gushes over Robin's no-nonsense communication style and mentorship, we explore the themes of empowerment, especially among women, in the workplace. We talk about the importance of asking questions at work, even when it feels intimidating, and how Robin challenged the norm by always speaking up. Jamie outs herself as the office chatterbox who is always trying to convince others to ask questions, Rebecca reveals her not-so-hidden disdain for forced corporate coffee dates, and Robin shares her journey into creating video content for social media.

Amidst discussions of imposter syndrome and creative burnout, we all emphasize the importance of speaking up, empowering others and your community, and continually learning.

You can find  Robin on:

Instagram: @robinsaks
TikTok: @robinsaks

Have a suggestion for our next episode? A burnout story to share? Send us a text!

Support the show

The Burnout Collective Podcast is hosted by Jamie Young and Rebecca McCracken. We’ve had every ounce of inspiration sucked out by years of startups and hustle culture, and we’re trying to reclaim our creativity. Join us and our guests as we explore how to restart and reenergize our brains. Every Thursday at 5pm PT, we stream live on twitch.tv/TheBurnoutCollective.

Join our Discord community: discord.gg/ZwBjbmVfAF
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Music track: Snap Your Fingers by Aylex
Source: https://freetouse.com/music

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
You're very good at it though.
it just seems like it comes 2ndnature to you.
You are excellent at talking topeople and I am.
Not that's why we make a goodteam,

Jamie (00:13):
I'm Jamie.
And I'm Rebecca.
Welcome to the BurnoutCollective.
Hey, everybody.
Hello.
Welcome.
Hi.
It's Robin.
Hey, hey, it's Robin.
I don't know why I'm doing this.
You're supposed to do this.

(00:34):
You can do it.
Oh, look, it's Robin.
Today we have Robin SachsFrankel here, who I, that's
right, who I have been luckyenough to work with, when I was
at, wait, can we say names?
Sure.
It doesn't exist anymore.
I guess it exists, but notwithout us.

(00:54):
So it hardly exists.
Yeah.
I was just going to say Forbes,but.
I guess that works.
That works.
at my last job, we workedtogether and definitely whether
she meant to or likes it or not,definitely like a very awesome
mentor and like leader for me tolook up to.
I totally meant to totally meantto be all of those things and

(01:16):
more.
I meant to be a mentor.
but.
She's also just, and that's kindof a little bit of what we want
to talk about today, but myfirst experience with Robin was
when she kind of just toldpeople how it is in a Slack work
chat when that was my firstweek.
And I was like, I was likesomebody else who like speaks up
for what's right.

(01:37):
Or asks the right questions thatnobody is asking.
I wish I remember what it was orthat you remembered.
It was, it was really somethingreally insightful.
It was, it was something that Ithink was pretty unhinged if I,
if I, but it was greatnonetheless.
And that's when I was like, Ilike her.
mutual back at you.

(01:59):
do you want to go ahead andmaybe just share with everybody
like a little bit about yourselfand like your career and where
you were, where you at, whereyou're at now?
Sure.
clearly I'm a mentor at least toJamie.
That's really the most importantthing about just to me because
I'm very high maintenance.
yeah.
Yes, to Jamie, I have no timefor other mentees.

(02:21):
no, I'm a personal financewriter and editor, been doing it
for about a decade and I'm a momof 2 teen boys.
I know we went over this, but Idon't know what else to say
about myself.
I, I'm very happy to be here.
And happy to talk about all thethings.
Yeah, all of them.
We're yeah, we're happy for youto be here too.

(02:42):
I was going to pull up our docbecause I did not have that up.
But yeah, we talked yesterdayjust about, just about kind of
just like our outline and whatwe're going to go over today
with Robin.
And like I said, the first thingwas, when I had talked with her
about being on the show, I waslike, I don't know, I kind of.
Want you to talk about maybebeing the person I was probably

(03:02):
projecting a lot because it'salso me because I'm like you in
this aspect but it was very muchjust kind of like being burnt
out like being Being the onlyone a lot of the time to speak
up and especially like the onlywoman at like in different teams
at different companies to askquestions and But yeah, one of

(03:26):
the things we had Discuss thatwe're going to talk about now is
that I am a huge question asker.
I don't think it's because I'mtrained as a journalist.
I think it's just I used toasking questions.
Right?
I think it is crazy.
This is exactly what we spokeyesterday.
If someone has the answer, whynot just ask the question?
Like I'm not, I know there's alot to be said for figuring

(03:48):
things out on your own.
And that's fine.
And you're like, okay, I have tofigure out how to get on this
podcast.
And I did have a little outsidehelp, but like just certain
things like that, You know, orfiguring out how to work
something new or how to putsomething together or whatever.
But when someone has the answer,literally, do I put a hyphen
here?
there's so many different rules,for example, on a copy desk.
And then the rules changebecause AP style changes, just

(04:09):
little things like that.
If someone has the answer, whywouldn't you ask?
And I think a lot of people justdon't ask.
And they're more reactive thanproactive.
And I'm really not saying I'mproactive in every area of my
life.
But in work, I certainly Try mybest to just get an answer.
I think that's more efficient.
You know, I'm kind of, I have alot of like mental energy at
work and I might call it hyper,but I just, I just don't see the

(04:35):
issue with speaking up.
I'm not afraid to speak up.
I'm going to ask the question.
I ask a lot of questions, evenif there's not answers.
I've learned to.
For better for worse camp itdown a little bit because a lot
of people do not respond well tothat energy.
I have learned.
I feel like they're eitherthreatened or I don't go ahead.
I think Rebecca was.

(04:55):
It wasn't a men men haveweaponized question asking place
where it's like, they don't wantto do any of the work.
And so they just ask them, theyknow what the answer is, but
with Robin, it sounds likeyou're asking questions to,
like, have a collaboration orto, to, have a conversation
versus just oh, I don't want tolook it up.
It's you know, I would like totalk to you about that.

(05:16):
You are the knowledge expert.
I, I don't know why people getso nonplussed by that.
I think sometimes I ask so, somany questions that people don't
have the time for it, or theyjust.
Feel like annoyed by all thequestions.
I'm just guessing.
I don't know what every singleperson I fire questions at, how
they're with, how they'reresponding.

(05:38):
I think sometimes people justdeflect'cause they don't wanna
do the work answer or they justdon't have the answer, you know,
or ask so many questions.
They're like, you know, slowyour roll.
Just why don't you try to dosomething on your own and get
the answer?
I don't know.
I don't really know.
you know, as we had spoken aboutbefore, I went to All Girls
School for 13 years where therewas not one iota of being taught
to be quiet.

(05:59):
It was like it was very cool tospeak up the people who spoke up
the most that was like superencouraged and wonderful and
That's cool.
I skew extroverted anyway yeah,I mean for introverts it was
amazing because they could speakup and not So weird about it as
extroverts like me, it's great.
I just assumed that I couldspeak up anywhere I went.
And then I remember I went tocollege and freshman year.

(06:22):
It was the first time I'd everbeen in class with boys.
Obviously I'd been around boys.
I didn't live this weird femaleonly world or anything just at
school, but, the girls did notspeak up in class.
It was the weirdest thing.
nobody raised their hand.
No one was enthusiastic.
Everyone just kind of like headdown.
it was really eyeopening.
Yeah, it was about just about, Idon't like muffled voices.

(06:44):
People don't want to stand out,which I think is, they're afraid
to speak up because they don'twant to stand out.
And I think that's not just ateenage thing, although it's
pretty common among teenagers.
And I think that's ageappropriate, but adults don't
want to be the squeaky wheel.
They don't want to, you know,they don't want to be the, yeah,
that's the troublemaker.
The annoying 1 or the 1 askingtoo many questions or call too

(07:04):
much attention to themselves or,you know, all the things that.
Yeah.
I do without thinking, I do theexact same thing.
and I'm an introvert too, but Idefinitely can be, I still think
I'm probably like a.
70, 30 or 80, 20 or somethinglike that.
But, you're not an introvert atwork, but at work we're all
remote and we're all just screenbased like this.

(07:26):
There was no like small talk.
It was like purposeful talk.
and it was in brief bursts, youknow, if it was once or twice a
week, that was it.
you know, it was a, it's aunique scenario.
I wonder too, if it's frompretty early on, women are
taught to, you know, not speakout, not make a lot of noise or
we're annoying or we're askingtoo many questions.
Yeah.

(07:47):
Like without being encouraged,which is amazing.
Sorry.
I interrupted you.
Yeah, no, but I was going to saywhat, what you were describing,
I think bucks, the trend ofwhat, you know, we usually see.
And so.
I don't know.
Have you noticed like when, whenyou get to a workplace and you
start doing that, have younoticed that you kind of
encourage that I think I'musually the loudest person

(08:10):
wherever I've worked or go inthe most.
Outspoken and it's not acompliment.
Sometimes I should shut my piehole.
but I definitely feel you shouldnever shut your pie hole.
Never.
I'm serious.
I'm not okay.
sometimes it's just notappropriate to speak up all the
time.
Sometimes I need to have alittle patience and wait and
listen, because someone mighthave been about to say the
question.

(08:30):
I was I just asked.
I have a little bit of apatience problem, I think, but,
I just, I don't know.
I don't know some of its natureand some of its nurture, I
think.
but I never, yeah, I think if Ihad gone to school with boys
growing up, I might have had alittle bit of that,
outspokenness hampered down alittle bit just because of, you

(08:52):
know, gender norms and, and all,you know, all the things.
That's really interesting.
The way you grew up withoutbeing tamped down.
that's experienced.
Most people I know don't have.
Yeah.
I don't, I didn't realize howweird it was until I tell people
I went to all girls school for13 years and they're like,
really?
I'm like, yeah, I wore a uniformfor 12 of those years.
Just not kindergarten.

(09:12):
I loved it.
I had a great time.
I loved uniforms.
It was so easy not to have tothink about what to wear.
I would wear a uniform now if Icould.
if you want to go change, like,we'll wait if you want to go
change.
Oh, yeah.
I don't have the uniformsanymore.
I don't think they'd fit meeither.
I am certainly not a genderstudies expert.
I, you know, and I don't, Idon't even know that I have

(09:33):
super strong feelings about allthat stuff.
I just know how I was raised andhow it is.
What the path that I have takenand it is a very loud 1 well,
but unconsciously we, when wewere talking yesterday, you
said, 1 of the things that driveto do is, you want to know how
to balance a check, but you wantto know where things and for

(09:53):
you, it almost seems like thisis.
I don't want to say knowledge ispower because that's so gross,
but maybe, in power, I think,you know, anything.
Super empowering to work inpersonal finance, don't you?
you feel you know, so much moreabout personal finance than,
than even, than even people whohave been like, maybe, I don't

(10:13):
know, managing their personalfinances since a very, very
young age or whose parentstaught them well, because I know
a heck of a lot about just frombeing in this industry, I didn't
know that I would know the insand outs of balance transfer
cards, or I don't know, evenjust a high yield.
Even like high yield CDs or justthings that like you don't
usually talk about or care Butmost people know the very basics

(10:36):
and I feel like I have veryempowering You know the
difference if someone startstalking to me about refinancing
their mortgage I could actuallyhave an intelligent conversation
with them about it because Ifollow these things as opposed
to alright, that's cool Goodluck.
I hope you get a good rate.
I know what a good rate is And Iknow, I don't know, the
difference between an arm and a,you know, jumbo mortgage and a,

(10:56):
you know, just all the, all theboring adulting things.
I find it very empowering.
I don't like to feel left, Idon't want to say it makes me
feel smarter, but it'sdefinitely nice to know the
things, right?
The things that make you dobetter at life financially.
Yeah, you're not passive aboutit.
Yeah, I know nothing aboutsports and I don't care to know

(11:20):
a lot about sports, but when I'maround a bunch of people
watching sports, like my kidsand my husband and they make
talk about these plays and that,I'm like, that must be very
empowering for my kids asthey've grown up to be able to
talk so deeply and intelligentlyabout something that they enjoy
and with their peers and withtheir father.
And, you know, so that's kind ofhow I feel about personal
finance, but it's more useful.

(11:41):
Yeah, I always say that yeah, Ijust, I stumbled into it because
like when my first personalfinance job recruited me and I
literally told them, I don'tknow anything about finance.
I don't have any, I was doinglike tech and app stuff, and
games and stuff like that.
And I was like, I don't knowanything about finance.
And they're like, Oh no, no, no,you can learn, you know?

(12:01):
And I had to learn very quicklyand I did.
And then I feel like, Yeah.
After a few years, all of asudden, I'm like, I'm kind of a
personal finance expert, youknow, like I'm quoted by people
as being a personal financeexpert.
It's amazing.
I didn't know.
I didn't know anything aboutcredit card.
I started Bankrate and they werelike, we're going to start
credit cards vertical.

(12:21):
And I started writing aboutcredit cards, Bankrate, and I
became.
They're a credit cards personand here I am, you know, 8 years
later, I'm the credit cardsexpert and, it makes me wonder
what else could I be an expertin if I were to dedicate a lot
of time to learning about it?
who has that kind of time?
Twitch, you'd be streaming onTwitch every week.
I could be.
I could have multiple Twitchchannels.

(12:43):
Yeah, I applied myself.
You sure could.
You sure could.
I don't know what I would dowith them.
I don't know why you would havemultiple.
I think you should just haveone.
Oh, but Robin's like, I can havea ton.
I could be on Twitch all daylong, switching away, putting up
all kinds of artwork of littleraccoons and trash cans and

(13:05):
coming soon.
I could do that, but I couldpick my own animal.
Yeah.
Definitely good.
I reached out to me and waslike, Hey, there's a job at
Student Loan Hero, and I waslike, eh, no, no, I don't do
money.
And she's no, it's a greatcompany.
You have to join.
I blew her off two to threetimes, and finally she was just
like, get a fucking Suze Ormanbook, Sue Orman.

(13:25):
Wait, who told you to apply forit?
Cat.
Oh, okay.
That sense?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've met her.
Yeah.
Card con.
I think I know who she is.
Yeah, she's a longtimefreelancer.
I don't do money, but things andbecause I didn't, I don't know
anything about it.
I didn't know student loan.
Hero was your 1st finance job,but I guess maybe I did know

(13:46):
that.
It's awesome.
Oh, that's okay.
Yeah, so here we are, we justkind of fell into it.
I guess here we are personalfinance experts.
This is how it's done.
We just fell in there.
I'm just kidding years ofcareful study and application
has gotten us to where we are.
But obviously you have anaffinity for it, or you don't
stay with it, right?

(14:07):
you wouldn't, you wouldn't workin something that you were super
bored by and couldn't stand, orI mean you would, but then you
would be actively seeking tomake a pivot and find a topic
you enjoyed.
I, I love Rebecca's face rightnow.
I don't know if it's like theoppositional defiance disorder
in me, but I really like findingthe, the scammy stuff or like

(14:30):
the loopholes and like trying topick apart oh.
I actually mean this, this, andthis.
It's not really oppositionaldisorder, but a lot of credit
card, quote unquote, hackers,they are engineers, or they have
engineer like minds, and they,Approach everything with how can
I extract the maximum value andthey're really into geeking out
on the spreadsheets and the, andit's, I think the reward of

(14:52):
getting more than what that cardwas intended to give them is
more satisfying than the trips.
For some people, just the ideaof, it's no different.
Look, when you find somethingyou really like on sale at a
store and you feel like you'vegot such a great deal, it's the
same thing.
It's just multiplied by multiplecards and understanding these
complex travel rewards and allthat stuff.

(15:15):
Like the finance world also hasfelt really gated or just maybe
not like we're inclusive and Ilike being a part of it because
the more I've worked here, themore women I've known have
joined here.
Is it used to feel like, Oh,it's just for men.
But Being in the middle of itand actually almost Rebecca, you
keep cutting out a lot.
God, I'm so sorry.
you don't need it in your mouth,but you definitely need to be

(15:36):
closer to it.
This is better so much better.
Thank you.
Okay.
Okay.
No, dear God.
No, I'm going to stick withbeing loud and talking.
Is that better?
Perfect.
I do see a much larger number ofwomen getting into personal
finance.
I can.
Okay.

(15:56):
I thought, first of all, my teamis half women.
I think if not more, I don'teven, I'm not a minority being
female working where I work,which is absolutely glorious,
but also, I can probably namehalf a dozen personal finance
experts that are women, youknow, on TV and with books and
all those other things, and Iwould so much rather take
financial advice.
From a woman than a man.

(16:17):
Well, that was kind of a blanketstatement Let me walk that back
a little bit.
But as a woman, I typically findadvice from other women more
relatable than and reliable Forpersonal finance, I don't know
if it's more reliable becausesomeone's a woman.
I just think Yes, definitelymore reliable when it's coming

(16:37):
from the 3 of us in particular 3of us.
It's been fact checked.
nothing has ever been factchecked and vetted and verified
and not by freelancers.
The opposite of whatever themeta is doing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
It is nothing like an AIoverview.
Not 1 bit.
I feel like that's a kind oflike a good segue.
And I know you were talkingabout this a little bit, but,

(16:58):
yesterday you were mentioning tous about like how some of your
friends, you were even sayinglike some of my divorced friends
kind of don't know what to doand.
You, have this knowledge and itis so empowering and so you,
want your friends and, peoplearound you and other women in
general to be, like, empoweredand to kind of know more.
I, I answer a lot of credit cardquestions from friends.

(17:21):
People will text me, should Iget this card?
Or they'll ask me, like, we goout to dinner and I pass
judgment on everybody when thebill comes.
I see what they put.
I can't help it.
Is it like a ritual?
Is it like a thing where they'relike, okay, Robin, judge our
cards?
No, but I do have a neighbor whothinks it is the funniest thing
that he can show, talk, ask meabout a credit card and I know
the rewards rate and the annualfee on the card.

(17:43):
Robin, listen.
Okay.
it's different than baseballcards and stats, right?
if you're dealing with somethingall the time, you just know it.
Robin is, she was known as thecredit card, encyclopedia.
I don't know about that.
It's a lot of pressure.
Oh, no, that's what we calledyou.
No, that's what we called you.
We're not going to quiz you.
That's terrible.
We would never.
Okay, cool.
But, you can, I don't know howwell.

(18:04):
She's at the top of her head.
it's insane.
Grace and I were always like,let's ask Robin.
She just knows.
We know she just knows.
Because I have been writingabout credit cards for her.
A little over eight years.
Yeah.
it's, you know, it's, that's allI do all day professionally is
think about credit.
sometimes I cover other topics,tangent, you know, personal
finance topics, but primarily,you know, it's Anything that you

(18:26):
follow, you probably could namea bunch of stats about a bunch
of video games that you play orsomething, or like characters in
your favorite book, and youwouldn't even think twice about
it.
You could go on and on aboutfucking Lord of the Rings for
forever.
I don't know a thing about Lordof the Rings.
I've never read it.
Me either.
I don't know anything aboutHarry Potter, and I just smile
and laugh at everyone else whensomeone makes some Harry Potter

(18:46):
joke.
I'm like, oh Quidditch, oh yeah.
I don't, I'm not even sure, Ithink that's the game with the
brooms, but I don't know.
You know, so I'm saying, soit's, it may, I don't know, to
me it's just part of my job.
So I'm glad, it's a good partytrick.
Marina, Marina in the chat isalready, feeling empowered.
She said, I felt like such abadass when I made a bitchy
comment at my mom's bank aboutthe interest on her savings

(19:10):
account And the dude was like,Oh, we have a better account.
And so she got 100 times more ininterest because of my bitchy
comment.
Yes.
Speak up.
Yeah.
She went from like a 0.
05 to a, well, nothing as a 5percent APY right now.
I don't.
I don't think the highest yieldencyclopedia and this, this
isn't even credit cards.
I like this stuff.
I feel very empowered.

(19:30):
I wish I had been like this at18, you know, when I was opening
accounts and things like that.
When I took out student loansand had no idea what that meant,
you know.
They fucking give loans tochildren all the time.
That was my right.
let me thank goodness.
You can't open credit cards as acollege to these to go around
and give out the t shirt.
yes, I would go to the campusand be like, hey, he wants a
pizza or a t shirt.

(19:50):
I had so many, like, collegeshirts and my credit scores in
the 800s just because I wouldopen credit cards so when I was
in college, they, some kind ofAmerican express that doesn't
even exist anymore had a deal.
Everyone signed up.
You got a free companion ticketwhen you sign up for the card.
it was like, here, have a freeairline ticket or maybe it's
just a free ticket.
Cause I feel like I would use itto fly home.

(20:11):
And it was crazy with the stuffthey used to give away to get
people to sign up.
But back to what you're sayingis I do have, yeah, Friends who
really don't know anything aboutpersonal finance.
And then if God forbid somethinghappens, their husband or they
get divorced, they just, I can'teven imagine how overwhelming
that would be to have to startyour life without even really

(20:31):
knowing what you need to knowjust to live, you know, not, not
to even talk about theemotional, you know, there's the
emotional component to that.
But then there's just I don'teven know how, like a budget.
I don't even know what I canafford.
I don't even know.
I don't have any credit, youknow, like stuff like that.
Like you're in your forties, youdon't have any credit, you know,
or maybe you have a little bitof credit cause you're an
authorized user and yourhusband's credit card.

(20:53):
And I just, you don't know whatyou don't know.
And now that I know what I know,I I'm like scared for people who
don't know.
There's a lot of no's in onesentence.
That's, that's how I feel too.
Possibly.
I just feel like people are too,too intimidated to ask because
they realize I don't, they don'tknow what they don't know.

(21:13):
And then people get scared toask and they get intimidated.
If I.
Not me, but, if you sound likeyou're too smart about something
to somebody who knows nothing.
They get too scared to ask.
Yeah, because then they're like,it's a stupid question or
they're going to like, or it'sthe wrong question or I'm not
going to word it.
Right?
That's 1 thing.
I always would tell my.
Direct reports as a manager too.

(21:34):
It's such like a stupid clichesaying, but like literally for
me like, oh, this is probably astupid question.
I'm like, no, no question is afucking stupid question.
Ask the question, whatever itis.
I'm not going to judge you.
I agree with that philosophy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So anyway, I, I, I wish I couldempower all the women I know to

(21:55):
just know something.
You know, about themselves.
you know, a generation ago, likemy parents generation, women
knew nothing, very few womenknew anything.
And the ones who did were reallystand out.
So then if their husbands passedbefore them, they wouldn't
barely even knew how to write acheck.
My dad's like always bringingthat up, like to my mom.
So he's, he's trying to get herto learn more.

(22:16):
Cause she's like, Oh, I wouldn'tknow what to do.
if your dad dies before me, Iwon't know.
What to do with this or this orthis.
but I also think she's morecapable than she realizes
because she was, she, she's theexecutor of my grandfather's
estate.
And so she had to do a lot forthat.

(22:36):
And like he, he passed away acouple years ago, but even
before that, there was like somuch that she did for that and
dealt with finances.
And my grandfather had the same.
stockbroker very into stock.
Same stockbroker as, charlieMunger.
Charlie Munger.
I think that was it.
They had the same broker, almostas well known.

(22:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Really?
Mm-hmm And they both diedactually within the same like
month, same year.
Oh, wow.
Okay.
Charlie Munger died not so longago, maybe two years ago, a
couple years ago.
Yeah.
Yeah.
recent enough that I remember hewas all over the news and they
kept airing like talks on CNBCthat, anyway, Becky Quick had

(23:20):
with Charlie Munger.
I got really lucky because mygrandpa was a bank manager.
And yeah, he took me to buy myfirst car.
He taught me how to go throughthe contract and figure out what
I was paying what I wasn'tpaying.
Is it going out Jamie?
Yeah, like bad.
Fuck me Is that our yeah talkI'll let you know so anyway, so

(23:45):
Yeah, find the car But then hewas the one who told me just
open a credit card use it pay itoff Hold on to it and when it
was time to buy our first houseor whatever we needed the my
credit score was great becausehe taught me that and That that
power.
Yeah, I have my kids.
My kids have had authorized usercards since they were 13.
Yeah, same My dad did that forus and I think yeah, I think

(24:07):
that that's one thing that aparent can do That's like such a
great thing.
that's still on my account, youknow Yeah, do it and and even if
you do don't give the card toyour kids.
Yeah Do it.
So they had it and then theypiggyback and then, yeah, so
empowerment.
Yeah.
Wonderful thing.

(24:27):
This is so off the rails fromwhat we had.
I thought we were going to talkabout.
It's fine.
No.
Yeah.
We just talk about what comes upis fine too.
yeah, we make an outline just tokind of like have some stuff in
there, but we do whatever we dowhatever on this show.
Oh, I was gonna say, along with,you know, we're talking about,
empowering women, but you weretalking about, even just
empowering your kids, that'ssomething that people have been

(24:50):
yelling from the rooftopsforever, is that, in middle
school and high school,especially, we, we need courses,
personal finance courses,financial independence courses,
something, especially as thesekids are about to go to College
and maybe take out what is a lawin several states that, the
personal, personal finance classis required.

(25:12):
I don't know if it actually iskicked in everywhere.
I believe in Florida starts nextyear.
Like, a lot was passed 2 yearsago or 3 years ago.
and then it, but when it'spassed, it doesn't necessarily
kick in right away.
I actually, I didn't do this.
This past fall, but the previous2 falls, I taught personal
finance to high school kids.
At a small private school one ofmy my kids used to go So I

(25:33):
taught intro to personal financeto high schoolers and it was
yeah, it was I loved it I didn'tlike balancing it with a regular
full time job because I had toleave work and go do this thing
for 45 minutes to an hour andthen come back and do my regular
work and it was It was just alittle jarring, which is why I
didn't do it this past fall,but, it was so cool.
these kids literally went fromzero.

(25:55):
I was like, even if you onlyknow the difference between
checking in a savings accountand that a credit score is
important, that's more than 90percent of your peers.
Yeah, you know, so it was just,and obviously they learned a
little more than that.
I don't know how much theyretained, but that was really
fun for me.
That's awesome.
I didn't know you did that.
That's really cool.
Yeah, I wish I could.
Unfortunately, the class was at2.

(26:16):
30.
So it's just a terror.
If it was first thing in themorning, I would have done it
again.
Or maybe at the end of the daywhere you, I was just, it's so
stressful.
Were you working remotely then?
Or yeah, I was working at Forbesand you sat and, it was just too
crazy.
Cause I had to be at the classin person.
Yeah, so it was just it was, itwas nuts.

(26:40):
I talk about burnout.
It was like Nuts, like when thatsemester is over.
I was like, huh?
Yeah, thank God not because theteaching was hard It was like
literally the the making sure Iwas dressed for school because
I'm always just shirts at homeand then driving there and
traffic and then Finding aparking spot and then doing the
class and then coming home andthen jumping back and whatever

(27:01):
work I had and then thinkingabout my lessons ahead and then
grading the papers, but alsodoing my regular work.
It was.
Madness.
It does sound like madness.
Ban running the household andmanaging two kids.
That's, yeah.
it really was like, like myfriends were like, after I did
it the first year, my friendswere like, please don't ever do
it again.
And then I did do it again.

(27:22):
What can I, let's say, just tospite them, first of all.
You said I could, said Icouldn't survive, I'll show you,
I'll explode.
they paid me.
It's hard to, it's hard to sayno to something you like where
you get paid.
Yeah.
It's just everything that'sswirled around those 45 minutes
was like.
Not was like nuts.
It was no way to live too bad.
I really liked it Maybe I'll goback to it at some point.

(27:44):
I like that for you.
Yeah, I wish you could find finda place where It's not stressful
and it won't burn you out.
Yeah, if I could do it at 8 inthe morning It would be great or
9 in the morning even but to doit like in the middle of the
workday It was it was just nutsyou should reach out to them and
tell them that be like, hey, Iwill do this But it has to be at
9.

(28:05):
yeah, there It was the periodthat they had it open for
electives, but, and I loved thatschool.
That's where my school K througheight.
So I had a special place in myheart for the school and
community friends of thatcommunity.
I don't know.
I just, I miss it.
But that was like, you know,sometimes I do very few mature
things and choosing not to dothat was a mature thing, not to

(28:27):
do it anymore because it wasmaking me too crazy.
And the money wasn't worth thecrazy.
Yeah, you have to a lot of apoint.
Yeah, I know it makes me soundso mature.
I can't believe it I'm so gladwe could be here for Robins for
my reckoning maturing.
Yeah, Robins reckoning my maturemoment.

(28:48):
Ooh Robins reckoning thealliteration.
There's something about it Ilike it Robins reckoning.
That's gonna be the title of myfirst album What I think we
talked about with you working Isthat only a twitch you've moved
from, a management position andyou're not managing anymore.
And so can you kind of talkabout sort of that switch and

(29:09):
how it feels to not have to beon anymore?
And moving up and just beingable to to be at work.
Have you noticed a difference?
Do you feel calmer in your life?
What's that?
so our industry, you know, it's.
Including both you and ourindustry was absolute madness in
the last quarter of 2024 and Igot moved right before really

(29:30):
start to get get nuts So I, Ihave very mixed feelings about
it, but I was so busy as a leadeditor, for this project I was
working on where I worked withJamie.
it was like nuts and you, andyou adjust to that, that becomes
your new normal to juggle 30balls in the air and that it
stops feeling crazy.
It just feels like normal atwork.
And then that was very rap thatvery rapidly changed when I was

(29:54):
transitioned back to a writingrole.
I hadn't been in a writing rolein like over three years because
I was a writer and then I was adeputy editor, then I was a lead
editor, then I got moved to alead editor somewhere else.
So it was really like, almostlike tire screeching.
We're used to like chuggingalong and then all of a sudden
you're in a school zone and yougotta go really slow.
And it was, it was really hardfor me for a lot of reasons.

(30:16):
There was just a lot of emotionaround what was going on in the
industry and the abject fear ofgetting laid off.
that's a very and that was Veryscary for a long time and it's
very stressful to live in thatkind of fear.
Yeah I mean it always exists.
I'm not i'm not layoff proof,but when the industry is totally
I don't want to say destroyed bygoogle, but it kind of was

(30:37):
affiliate person.
Anyway, So now I'm in, I'm in amuch better place than I was, in
terms of having much lessmadness.
Instead of juggling 20 balls atwork, I'm juggling maybe 2,
which isn't hard at all.
Anyone can juggle 2 balls.
Sometimes that, that's a bigrelief too, to go from that to
that.
No, it wasn't a relief.

(30:57):
it was, I like to be busy and Ilike to be stimulated and I
trend towards add a little bit.
it was really hard for me tojust dial it back like that.
But what it is allowed me to do,like now I'm on the other side
of it.
And what I've realized is I haveall this opportunity to take the
headspace.
That's not.
Exhausted after the work day andexpand and try other things.

(31:21):
Look at me, I'm on Twitch, youknow, like I started, I joined a
women's networking group and I'mtrying to work on building a
personal platform.
I have no idea what that's goingto look like or what that means,
but that's part of the processof trying these new things.
And I'm doing, I'm trying tomake posts on LinkedIn and all,
you know, all the social thingsabout various things and see how

(31:41):
that feels to be more, more of avideo person and not just like
typing away at the keyboard.
so that was a very long windedway of answering, but isn't this
what a podcast is for justtalking, talking, yeah.
I didn't like it and now I havegrown to embrace it.
So I'm still really, reallybusy, but instead of busy doing

(32:01):
the things I have to do now, Ihave more time to do the things
I want to do, which is awesome.
Do you feel like, do you feellike you have a, like a weird
sense of what work actually islike working this high paced and
so I came from startups and soI, I didn't really understand
like what actual work was versusstartup work or remote work.
do you, did you find like youkind of have to that work basic?

(32:24):
Once I came to Forbes advisor,I've been in like, start, I feel
like I've been in startup modefor five years.
Forbes was there like just sixmonths after it launched.
So it was me, I was the onlywriter and I had two editors and
there were maybe 10 of us intotal on the editorial team.
And it was like that for a longtime.
And then after I think three ishyears, I got moved to this

(32:46):
startup.
White label project.
And then I came along.
That was Matt, that's when youcame along and everything
changed for the better.
But that was, that was more of astartup than Forbes Advisor was.
That was a startup, a crazyfrantic pace where if we had
been in an office we would havebeen sleeping under our desks.
I mean it was like nuts.
Like desk hammocks.
Have you seen them?

(33:07):
That's true, your feet, not yourhead, right?
No, they have little hammocksthat you can actually like sleep
in.
Like string under your desk?
If you're tiny.
But you met oh.
I don't know, I think of GeorgeCostanza on Seinfeld when he
made a like desk, a nook underhis desk when he worked for the
Yankees.
That's what I think.
Or there's a picture circulatingof one of the guys who founded
Yahoo sleeping under his desk.

(33:29):
I don't know if it was Philo orYang or whatever.
And I'm like, but that's what itwould have been like, Jamie, if
we had had an office.
it was that intense.
I was doing that just at home,sleeping under my desk.
Yeah, I.
Like really I'm loving that Ihave this much.
I didn't love it.
And now I'm at a place where Ilove it I really love having the

(33:52):
mental headspace to pursuethings that I enjoy because I
don't think I had it for fiveyears Oh, yeah, I was just like
head down work I'm still I stillworking hard, but I don't I'm
not juggling multiple thingsYeah, and I didn't realize how
much that had burned me out.
I just didn't Learn anything.
I wasn't really learning muchnew outside or being like

(34:13):
creative that's what we talkabout a lot on the show is oh,
yeah until rebecca and I startedmeeting About doing this.
it was about doing somethingelse, but then we did this It
like unlocked something in mebecause like I was always like
i'm not a creative person I'm,just like i'm a writer.
Okay, and i'm an editor.
Great.
Like i'm just not creative andit's just flipped a switch in my
brain and like creativity juststarted pouring out of me and I

(34:36):
was doing things that like I wasreally enjoying doing like doing
like some design work and makinggraphics and stuff for social
and it was great so it's just socool nice to yeah and I was just
appalled because I was like oh Ijust thought I wasn't a creative
person no I was just burnt outas fuck and That's all I had
time for, was just that, andkeeping myself and my cats

(34:58):
alive, you know?
There's not, as a working mom,there's not a lot left over
between work and family, andwhat, generally what little is
left over, I also try to like,maintain connections with
friends.
You know, like that's importantto me too.
I, I wouldn't, I don't knowwhere I'd be without some of my

(35:18):
friends.
they've been there, you know,some of my closest friends are
absolutely part of my supportsystem, but friendships don't
exist in a vacuum.
You have to give them love andlife too.
and usually as a working mom,it's like work and family or
take most of my energy.
And then what little is leftover is your friends.
So like, where's the, where'sthe time for me.
and now I have a little mentalbandwidth for me and, But it
took me a really long time toget here.

(35:40):
you know, I switched to being awriter in July and it's now
March and now I'm like, youknow, you have to, it takes a
long time to unwind when you'reused to running at a hundred
miles an hour.
And I think I'm starting tounwind.
Yeah.
Yeah, I, I get that.
I worked at a creation, acreative agency before where I
am now, and for 2 years,anything creative that was that

(36:06):
came from me.
Either a was it was wrong toldit was wrong or be it wasn't
actually for me.
It was for someone else.
So to back you up, I just I'mnot really.
But the amount of freedom I'vehad working with you and not
having someone behind.
Shit.
It's amazing, like, how muchfreer you actually feel, but,

(36:28):
oh, I am, I am creative, it'sjust when you figure out, you
don't have anyone, you guys cansay whatever you, whatever you
want.
I mean, that's, that's a freedomyou don't have at work.
You can't say whatever you want.
I mean, I can say a card sucks,or I wouldn't say sucks.
I can say this card is terriblefor just about everybody.
That's not really freedom.
That's my job to give an honestreview, right?

(36:49):
I can't.
there's plenty that I can't say,you can't say it because it's
inappropriate or it's, I don'tknow, you know, like you just,
you have the freedom to dowhatever you want with this.
there are very few places, veryfew outlets in life where you
have the freedom to do whateveryou want without reprisal.
obviously, you can't offendsomebody on purpose or you know,
I mean, you can, within the,within the confines of normal

(37:13):
society, you have freedom.
No, no one's telling you it hasto be written or said or spoken
or designed or look a certainway.
That's cool.
I do want to twitch now.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, and, and, again,without this, I don't think I
ever would have recovered any ofthat creativity back, or, or
anything.
this has been super healing, andI think as far as competence
goes has been like, oh, I can doa thing and I do know how it's

(37:34):
been great for that.
Yeah, for sure.
yes, anytime you try somethingout of your comfort zone and you
don't fail, I think it's superempowering.
That's, I'm, I'm enjoying makingthese videos, even though I look
at them, I'm like, why did Ijust make that?
I don't have anything to say.
I'm just talking.
Tell us about your videojourney.
tell us how that kind of cameabout.
I literally just started.
my, my boss, she's my boss, Idon't know, my, my friend at

(37:59):
work who also happens to be twopay grades above me on my team,
who I consider a friend outsideof work.
she started doing this videochallenge and she was maybe a
week or two into it.
I'm like, that's cool.
And I keep seeing other peoplein our personal finance space.
They're all making videos.
And I'm like, why don't I dothis?
It seems so easy.
I have so much to say.
And then I sat, started doingit.

(38:20):
I'm like.
I know that I have that much tosay, like it gets really weird,
it's very different for me tohave a live conversation with
you guys than it is to stareinto a camera and talk
uninterrupted, like back andforth is much easier than
talking basically to yourself.
and so it's been verychallenging because I say stuff
and I record it and then I rerecord it and then I do it like
10 times and I think it's rightbecause people, you only, people

(38:44):
are gonna watch, you know, youwant to make a good impression
and you want to make sure you'rebeing effective and then you
look at it like, I don't haveanything to say.
You know, I don't have amessage.
I don't have a platform that I'mtrying to get people to go visit
or a product I'm trying to sell,or I'm not exactly sure what I'm
doing.
And I realized, that's part ofmy challenge, right?
I'm making videos.
I'm trying to include someinformation kind of about credit

(39:05):
cards, but I'm not just part ofmy journey is I'm not just a one
trick pony.
I'm not just a credit cardwriter and editor.
Like I have other skills and inthis economy, I think it's
important to.
Not rely to have multiplestreams of income, so I'm not
sure what that looks like for meyet, but that's my video journey
That's my why and you'relearning new skills.

(39:26):
Yeah, you're learning new skillsskills.
I'm learning to ask my son forhelp and Hopefully by osmosis
some of these skills I will pickup, but I, I'm starting to have
yeah, it doesn't seem that hardwhen he's doing it.
I don't know, but I realize it'ssparking creativity in me.
I'm getting an idea for a videoand what I want it to look like.

(39:46):
An idea will come to me like,oh, this is how I want it to
look and whether or not Iexecute it isn't even
necessarily the point.
It's just that I'm getting ideasfor ways to express myself.
In different ways, and I'm like,this is fun, even if only my
friends are liking it andthey're like, yeah, you go make
those videos.
We love them.
That's cool.
That's enough for me.
You know, like I'm not.

(40:07):
You know, it's, I'm certainlynot doing anything unique.
There's a lot of people thatmake videos, but I have not made
videos before.
And I find it exciting andempowering and cool.
And it makes me laugh most ofthe time.
And that's, that's why we dothis because we, it makes us
laugh.
If you enjoy it, as long as youenjoy it, you should do it.
And if it's not hurting anybody,it's not hurting anybody for me

(40:29):
to make videos.
And it makes me laugh and feelgood.
hopefully I'm imparting somewisdom in there.
Hopefully I'm adding somethingto the conversation.
If not, I will be at some pointbecause I'll get better.
You said yesterday, all the timeyou spend with making stuff or
doing stuff for other peoplelike dinner, laundry, that kind
of thing, you're doing somethingjust for you, which is so cool.
you don't have to give it toanyone.

(40:49):
It's for you.
You're totally right.
The same comment I just gave youguys about the podcast.
I guess that applies to me.
You're right.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you for that.
That's important.
Yeah, it's just for me.
so I'm enjoying that and alsofollow her on TikTok and
Instagram.
Yeah.
And LinkedIn and yeah, follow meon Facebook, but I post the same

(41:10):
video everywhere.
I'm not at a place where I canmake multiple videos, but, it's
really interesting because now.
And again, I've only been doingthis for maybe two or three
weeks, and maybe one video week,sometimes two, but it is, now
everything is inspiration forme.
I could make a video about this.
today's International Women'sDay.
I was like, I could make a videoabout this.
And I did.

(41:31):
And, but there's a lot ofthought in there.
what's the background going tobe?
How am I going to make it?
What am I going to say?
What am I, I don't want to justsay happy international women's
day.
What's my point.
Yeah, that's cool.
I'd like slowing down.
See, I'm not, I got really hypertalking about something.
I was interested.
Yeah, I can hear it.
Yes.
And this is how I am at worktalking about credit cards.

(41:52):
I know I missed a blah.
I missed you too.
I miss you in the workplace.
You know, I have to say, eventhough work is not your family
and because your family won'tfire you and work.
Here we go.
I have made, I have made, but Ihave made so, met so many
fabulous, wonderful peoplethrough my jobs over the years,

(42:13):
like people that I trulyconsider friends outside of
work.
and it's just.
You know, it's been such a nicebenefit of my jobs that no one
could have predicted orexpected.
Obviously, not everybody is myfriend, but I've been very lucky
that I've never been on it.
I shouldn't say never, ever,ever, but since I've been in the

(42:34):
last 5 years, I've never had towork closely with someone or I'm
just like, you know, and that'sjust been a gift.
I have so many.
Personal phone numbers, likeJamie, you know, like people in
my phone from work.
I'm sorry, you don't have mynumber?
Yes.
No, but I'm saying like for aremote team, I don't think that

(42:56):
happens a lot where everybodycan, you know, we have all these
WhatsApp groups where we cantalk freely outside of work and
connect and share.
And it's really, I'm verygrateful for it, you know, cause
it's very easy to work remotely,zero work friends.
And I feel like.
That's like how I know both ofyou and also women, especially

(43:17):
coming over to Forbes, that wasone thing I really loved about
the prospect of working therewas there were so many women in
like manager and leadershiproles, more than normal, and I
was like, Oh, thank God, mom.
Might have been more because ofthat.
Patrick did say, even if youfail at something, at least you
have the experience.

(43:37):
And, and I think, yeah, I thinkthat's like big, even Pat, for
both you and I who are lookingfor jobs right now, I even think
about that for, jobs.
Cause even if you learn moreabout the job and you find out
that Oh, I actually don't thinkthis is going to work for me or
for whatever reason, but maybeyou have an interview instead of
canceling it, just do theinterview anyway, because it's

(43:59):
like, The experience and it'snot going to like harm anything
you learned from it, you know,yeah I was in between I was
interviewing for when I wasinterviewing for Forbes adviser
I was also interviewing for asimilar position somewhere else,
but that somewhere else was muchmore Corporatey and this was

(44:20):
more like a startup and I was Iwas like, this corporate thing
is just not for me.
I don't want to have to put onmakeup to get on a zoom call.
I don't want to have to, youknow, I want to just be able to
sit at home with my t shirt andyoga pants with my hair in a
bun.
And so I went through theprocess with them.
I was very lucky.
I had the choice between twojobs, but, yeah, I was like,
okay, it's important to knowwhat you don't want and what you
don't like, because how else doyou know what you do like?

(44:42):
And interview them is like a bigone that I'm always reminding
people of, you want to interviewthem to make sure that, that
company is going to be a goodfit for you.
Yeah, although you don't everreally know until you're in it.
Very true.
I actually, that's one reason Ialmost didn't want to apply to
the position with Forbesbecause, so it's Forbes advisor,

(45:04):
which is like baby Forbes, But,all I thought of was Forbes.
It's Forbes.
It's a big corporation.
So like, all I thought was justlike stodgy.
White then, honestly, that's allI thought about and I was like,
I don't know what they're knownto be.
Yeah.
I'm like, is it like, is itgoing to be like that?
I don't know.
but then after interviewing withKarina and like other people

(45:26):
there, they stressed that theystress that no, this is
different.
This is more of like a startupfeel.
And I was like, okay.
And I was kind of put at ease.
But that was one reason I kindof was thinking maybe I didn't
want to go there, but I didn'teven meet you until.
The side project because we wereon a different team.
Yeah, I wasn't there that longOkay.

(45:50):
Yeah, and it gets a littlesiloed too.
I don't know Oh, yeah I don'tknow many people on the other
teams only the people that havebeen there for a really long
time who we used to Work closelytogether, you know, yeah and
then me trying to do little likehappy hour gossip chit chats
with All the lead editors andthen me not showing up Because I

(46:10):
forgot I would do that all thetime.
Robin would be like, Jamie, cometo the chat today.
And I was like, oh, no, but Rob,you ask questions all the time.
I ask questions to people who Ikind of want to know, but I'm
not on their team and it's justkind of like a little in.
They know thing, you know,they're sending you pictures of

(46:33):
their kids Halloween costume.
I don't know.
It just kind of happens.
That's so very specific.
That is so specific.
it's amazing.
You came up with that.
I think at one point there wasan initiative to try to have a
virtual coffee with people indifferent teams, but everything
was just paused for like fourmonths, everything was just not
normal for a long time.

(46:54):
I don't think anyone had themental energy to like connect
with a person who they might notever be working with again.
I think I should resurrect that.
Can we please tell you about ourcoffee dates with the Russian
engineers at student loan here?
Yes, please, please, becausethey were the funniest and worst
thing I've ever gone to becausenot only are they Russian,

(47:17):
they're engineers.
when you ask them questions,because, oh, also, they're
trying to learn English.
So they're practicing questions.
what's your favorite color?
And they go gray.
Oh, what's your favorite food?
Whatever my wife makes.
And it was just excruciating.
Like talking to a robot.
Yeah.

(47:37):
Yeah, so for my favorite coloris gray, whatever my wife, what
are your hobbies, gray?
What do you like to do?
He goes, I don't know.
Russia.
Everything is gray.
I like to do these awkwardcoffee chats.
Obviously he was forced to doit.
That's so yeah.
that's 1 thing is that's what Iwas going to say about those is
every time I've had that and thecompany has been like, let's do

(47:59):
this.
You know, it's always veryforced and awkward, Yeah.
It's a nice idea.
Yeah, but you guys do like thecredit card, like the credit
card chat, you know?
Yeah, we have, we have a meetingonce a week, but, yeah, there's
a lot of chat there.
We have, we have another chance.
it's been kind of quiet lately,but yes, we can, I can easily
reach if I'm talking to someonefor work purposes, it easily

(48:22):
also includes some personal chitchat and banter.
You know, I've met everyone onthe team in person.
More than once at this point, Ithink, which is cool, but, you
know, I love remote work and Idon't understand all the uproar
about, you know, oh, you miss somuch when you're not in the
office.
I'm like, I look at all know whothese people are.
I don't know who these peopleare though.
they must be people.

(48:43):
I don't know.
They're not people in ourindustry because our industry is
all about staring at a screen.
Right And I just, I know when Iused to work, when I used to
work at Bankrate, I would drivevery far every day to go to an
office and it was great becauseit was me back at work and I'm
not working for the office atBankrate.
I went to the office at Bankratein Palm Beach Gardens, not New
York, and it was 45 minutesthere and an hour home.

(49:04):
Oh God.
And my kids were little and itwas just such dead time for me
in the car.
And I was like, these are twohours of my life.
I could be, you know, like mykids are eating chicken nuggets
every single night or hot dogsbecause I wasn't home in time to
make dinner.
And my husband doesn't know howto cook, whatever.
It was just, it was, it was agreat experience to have that
job because then it led to megetting my next job, which is

(49:26):
remote.
And, and I learned about creditcard, but working from home, I'm
so much more productive.
I'm just more productive, youknow, same, you know, and I
don't feel like I'm missing outon the personal connection part
because I'm making connections.
how many people in that office?
I think I made 2 friends atsince I've been at Forbes
advisor.
I've made maybe 20 friends, youknow, it just because you're

(49:49):
around people doesn't meanyou're going to connect with
them.
But yeah, but Jamie, it's not, Igot rid of their best people
ever.
It's not'cause of that.
See, Robin was even there longerthan me and, but anytime we
ended a meeting like people orlike our manager would be like,
Jamie, you have anything else?
it was always me.
They would always be like,Jamie, do you have anything?
And I sometimes I was like,Robin asked more questions than

(50:11):
me Like, why is it always mequestions?
I do, but it was always me, man.
My, my favorite thing to do.
Yeah.
My favorite thing to do in thosemeetings is just like, when
they're like, okay, got you alittle time back, everybody like
leave early.
And I'd be like, wait, everybodyand everyone would be like, you
know, and I'd be like, I justwant to say I love you guys.

(50:31):
Bye.
They're like, you stop it.
I have a couple screenshots ofwhen you were working there and
I remember when you told meabout Robin the first time.
And she had popped off and yousent me a screenshot or you like

(50:52):
of the slack.
Oh, do you have it?
I think so.
It's amazing.
The 1 you were talking about,she said the, she said
something, something, somethingwho the F knows, but.
It was like, someone else askeda question today and then you
popped off and slack and Iremember.
so that was my I was like, look,there's another person here who

(51:13):
speaks up You did you're likesomeone else asked the question
today.
Some of them some of our peerswere even telling me like Oh,
yeah, Jamie bring that up at theyou know They'd say something
they'd say Jamie bring it up atthe next and I finally snapped
Robin and I was like I don'teven know if you were in the
chat for this or not, but I waslike I'm sick of being the only

(51:34):
one.
I'm like, you guys have to speakup too.
I was there for that.
Yeah.
I was there for that.
And Robin's like, oh yeah, weremember.
We all had a private chat afterthat.
No, there was no private chatafter.
I just, I was like, other peoplehave to speak up too.
And, but then other people thatnever spoke up started speaking
up and I was like, that's great.
And I felt, I think they feltmore empowered.

(51:56):
Yeah.
And I think over time as we gotmore comfortable with each other
and with our, we had an awesomemanager so that I think so that
made it a lot easier to speakup.
you know, I felt heard and seenthe amount of appropriate
bullshit.
You and I send each other istruly blowing my mind.
And now I can't find it.

(52:17):
I know.
Sure.
From two years ago, we can findthree years ago, right?
Three years.
I think it.
Yeah, probably you were like,who the F even knows is what it
said.
And Jamie was like, look at her.
Maybe that's why I was also soshocked is because she was like.
She said, fuck or F or somethingand I was like, yeah, how many

(52:39):
screenshots of slack were youtaking?
I don't know if I've ever takena screenshot of slack.
It's so funny because No, it wasspecifically because you were
like, someone else because, I.
I'm not trying to speak for you,but I know you were struggling
with, like, feeling.
Either punished or I got beatdown a lot, and and by for a

(53:00):
while before, I was beaten downby other women in leadership
roles, like above me and mymanagers who were like other
women that were like making theIkea.
Yeah, making me feel like shitfor speaking up or like, it was
awful.
And so it was, yeah, I'm notmashing.
I'm really wondering what ourexperience would have been like,

(53:22):
if we hadn't had, 2 women whowere in charge of us.
When we work together, I wonderif we would have been, I just
wonder if it would have beendifferent.
I guess I am.
I don't mean to man bash.
I like men.
I have two young men that i'vegiven birth to i'm married to a
man.
I just but I don't work withthem So man bash all the time.
Yeah Trying to make a blanketstatement like all men are

(53:44):
Inferior managers to women.
I don't believe that to be true.
I'm, just wondering what thedynamic would have been because
most of my managers have beenWomen in the last couple years
Yeah, I think it stood out somuch for her because you were
the first one to make her feelnot shitty and you were leading
by example by asking questionsand I remember because you and

(54:05):
I've been talking about it andyou've been so down and I
remember you telling me like, soexcited you were, you were the
light at the end of the tunnelfor me, Robert.
I just, it's so funny to mebecause I can't, I just can't, I
don't know what it's like to beshy.
And I'm not making fun ofpeople.
I just, I don't ever feel likenot speaking up.

(54:28):
And so to hear that, you feltweird about speaking up or that
other people don't feelcomfortable speaking up.
It's as foreign to me as,Anything that's foreign.
I tend to, it just, yeah, I tendto manage a lot of introverts,
which is fine.
I'm an introvert.
And I think It was harder forsome of my direct reports like

(54:52):
at different stages to speak upbecause they were shy and they
were so introverted so theydidn't want to speak up because
they didn't want to callattention to themselves.
And I, I told every one of themat some point, Hey, I want you
to be comfortable.
If you're not comfortablespeaking up, you can always ask
me and I will be happy to foryou.
But I also want to empower youto speak up.

(55:12):
because what you have to say orask is, is, is valid and fine.
And so I, I do want you guys tolike branch out and start
speaking up for yourselves alittle bit, but I also
understand being an introvertand a little shy and maybe, you
know, in a role where you feellike you shouldn't that nobody
cares what you think, but it's Icare what you think.

(55:35):
Everyone else cares what youthink.
You're shy, but you have a veryquick wit and you are quick to
share it.
Which is like not common insomeone who's shy.
You don't seem afraid to speakyour mind.
I'm not shy.
Yeah, I was.
I guess I don't understand beingintroverted.
I don't know.
Jamie's not shy.
Please.
So what's the difference?

(55:56):
An introvert?
You, okay, so I will tell you,we went on vacation together and
this bitch every time a waiter.
Oh my.
how are you doing?
No, it's so great.
And she would just talk.
To people we were at a store.
She's like, oh, these pants aregreat.
Have you tried these pants?
I'm like, Jamie, we don't evenknow them.
And you were telling the ladyabout the soft, fuzzy fleece

(56:17):
pants.
You're like, these are so soft.
This we're nicely talking to herabout it.
That's the difference.
That's the Midwest in me.
I think that's because I grew upin the Midwest.
That's very Midwest.
You're you're very good at itthough.
if you're.
it just seems like it comes 2ndnature to you.
You are excellent at talking topeople and I am.
Not that's why we make a goodteam, but that's the difference.

(56:39):
I don't talk to people and Idon't want Jamie's very, there
are a lot of people to be clear.
There are a lot of people.
I don't want to talk to, but sowhat makes you an introvert?
You just get, tired of talkingto people after a long period of
time.
I think the biggest differentand this is what I heard that I
think makes the most sense to meis like extroverts.

(57:01):
are like filling their cup whenthey're like around people.
Introverts.
Yeah.
They're being drained whenthey're around people.
Even if it's, it's this, likeafter this, like I'm going to
need a little bit by myselfbecause I love this.
I love doing this.
I love you guys.
This is fun.
But, it's still like a lot, likeeven if you know how many
meetings we were in sometimes,like I would be in like four and

(57:24):
a half hours of meetings.
One day and like I wouldliterally just have to go lie
down in my bed for 15 20 minutesNot sleep and just lie there in
the a little bit of darkness andlike silence Because I needed to
recharge Understood understood.
I mean there's lots of otherthings, but I think that's like
the main Completely my husband'smore like that.

(57:49):
Yeah, he is fine to chat chatchat, but like at the end of the
night he's he just He wants hisalone time.
and I get, you know, like sad ifI'm not around people.
I don't know.
It's just so interesting how,you know, people are wired so
differently with that stuff.
Yeah, I literally cannot evenimagine.
I feel like I miss so much ofthe chat here.

(58:10):
What's happening?
Oh, Rob's getting ready to tellhis boss that she's being I
don't know.
Talk to my new manager about howshe's coming off.
How's she coming off?
Rob?
you know what?
She really loves is if he justlooks a little tired or ask if
it's like, she has her period.
She's really good.
Oh, my God.
Women love that.
I hate that.
Love that.
Oh, you look tired today.

(58:31):
Have you had a man say that toyou before in the workplace?
Robin?
Oh, God, I don't think so.
Oh, man.
Oh, or if you're not wearingmakeup and they go, are you
sick?
No, because I never wear makeup.
When I went to work, I wear alittle makeup, but no, I always
look like complete crap at home.
And in fact, I've gotten socomfortable looking like crap,
like I don't even try for theZoom meetings.

(58:53):
This is me trying right now.
I have my hair down.
You look beautiful.
Mascara on.
Yeah.
you're very kind, but, I, youknow, there are plenty of people
who wouldn't even dream of beingin a Zoom work meeting without
looking semi professional.
Yeah.
Rebecca.
Oh, that's great.
That's a what I, I wish I hadthat Jean.
I, I, I am like missing thatgene.
I love like the jean that likesto get dressed up and put on

(59:14):
lots of makeup and always lookfancy.
And I don't have that jean.
I think I'm the same.
I know, love that.
Holy shit, I love it.
Rebecca, you're an introvert andnot chatty?
Is that what you're saying?
Yeah, I have select.
I have it's like a cat.
Like, I have people and that'sit.
And I don't know, she nevershuts up to me.

(59:36):
I have to say, or 1 yearinvolved where you've committed
once a week to talking to a newperson.
We fought a lot about that, buthaving a guest each week.
You know, about this, I reallydid not want to do this.
I did not want to be.
Perceived.
I wanted to be behind amicrophone.
I didn't want to be seen.

(59:57):
Oh, I know.
And Jamie made me and now I havea new skill.
She keeps saying skill.
She keeps saying that I madeher, but it was definitely, a
business partner decision.
yeah, it was, I know, but if youweren't comfortable, you're so
made up and you're doing great.
You asked really good questions.
Yeah.
What if he told me we could makemore money this way?

(01:00:18):
that's, you've made 65.
You said, that's incredible.
Don't share our finances.
Robin.
We want to keep up from this.
Sorry.
I meant just from this call,just from this call, just from
this, just from this call, 65.
and that's what much more thanI've made from my videos.

(01:00:41):
Much more.
Yeah, but you're not on Twitchyet.
See, great.
True.
I'm true.
Gotta get to cheap.
You're right.
Or substack for any of thosethings.
Yeah.
I'm telling you.
Listen to you Substack.
Yes.
You could do this Jamie.
You can be a consultant to getpeople set up on their Twitch,
like stream labs.
Yeah.
Telling you you'd be amazing atthis.

(01:01:02):
Marina says it's funny if I nextweek had you guys as a guest on
my tweet.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Next week.
Oh my God.
Set up for me and make you talkto strangers on it the entire
call with no input from me.
How would that go?
You're really winning pointswith Rebecca right now.
You're doing a great job.

(01:01:24):
Edibles.
I'll be there.
Don't worry.
It's your cycling frog too.
Everybody has cycling frog now.
Yeah, don't know what they'recycling.
It's a brand.
It's fine.
It's for CBD for pain, but Jamiewas like, try them.
Yeah, it's I recognize thatlabel.
Oh, it calms you down too.
Yeah.
It makes you chill.

(01:01:45):
Yes.
Yeah.
Cool.
Yeah.
So I feel like.
This is that time, Robin.
I said, that's the feeling.
Oh, you guys have the feeling.
When you were asking, that's thefeeling.
Yeah.
We were.
Robin's like, when do we end?
And I told her the same thing Itold Rebecca on our first
episode.
I said.
I feel like it'll just be afeeling.

(01:02:07):
And then Rebecca just said tolike.
Wash her hands of us.
And I know once you pulled outthe CBD like Robin's I need to
go take some on my own and havea good night.
So I'm a mother.
I don't talk about these things.
I don't talk about these.
Oh no, she's like spinning inher chair.

(01:02:27):
I see you.
I see you over there.
Yeah.
this was awesome.
Thank you for having me.
Oh, my God.
Thank you for hanging on.
I heard so much about you.
I've heard so much.
I'm so glad to meet you inperson.
It's been so much fun.
Glad to meet you too.
I know.
And I love knowing someone elsein my industry because you know,
all the madness.
but I really enjoyed talking andI enjoyed this much FaceTime

(01:02:48):
with you, Jamie.
Yeah.
Let's do it.
Let's do it not on Twitch.
Let's do it again soon, though.
You know, like on a lessstructured way.
On your podcast.
on my Twitch next week.
Yeah.
Next week on Robyn's Twitch, youguys.
Thank you so much, Robin.
Thank you for being here.
Follow Robin, watch her videos,.
I just wanted to say thank you,everybody.

(01:03:10):
Was great.
we love Robin.
Robin's amazing.
but please, please, please,podcast feeds give us five
stars.
If like a reviews will help too.
I don't think we have anyreviews yet.
We may have one somewhere.
I don't think we have anyreviews.
It helps us a ton if you justLike, follow us.
That's like subscribe.

(01:03:30):
So follow us on Spotify, Apple,Amazon, wherever you get your
podcasts.
With your support, we havebecome the number one mental
health podcast in Norway, yeah.
Thank you, Tora.
Thank you, Tora, for that.
Thank you so much for yoursupport.
Want to tell them what we'regoing to get into next week?
Yes.
It's my sister.
She is coming.
We are going to ask her all thequestions she went from working

(01:03:54):
in a museum to working as anelectrician's apprentice thank
you all so much for tuning in.
Thank you for showing Robin.
Oh, you can ask her aboutstabbing me in the leg with a
pencil.
All right.
Love you guys.
Thank you all for being here.
Thank you for being here.
Bye.
The Burnout Collective is hosted by me, Jamie Young.

Rebecca (01:04:16):
And me, Rebecca McCracken.
You can find all our episodes,plus show notes, at
burnoutcollective.
com.

Jamie (01:04:22):
Follow the discord link on our website to join the
burnout community.
You can also find us on TikTokand Instagram.

Rebecca (01:04:29):
If you're interested in being a guest on a future
episode or have questions orfeedback.
You can email us at podcast atburnout collective.
com.