No one cares what the musician likes

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Joel (00:00):
Like I, I wouldn't even take a long car ride with

Jamie (00:02):
Oh wow.
Wow.
Okay.

Joel (00:05):
I don't wanna cry while I'm driving,

Jamie (00:09):
It is hard to cry and drive.
I am Jamie.
And I'm Rebecca.
Welcome to the BurnoutCollective.
Hey, hey, hey everybody.

Joel (00:23):
Hey, everybody, buddy.

Jamie (00:24):
Welcome this.
This guy, this is Joel.

Joel (00:30):
That's

Jamie (00:30):
of Red Heaven.
Usually Rebecca is here with me.
We're co-host.
This is our podcast.
Rebecca just had some workemergencies come up and was
unable to make it today, We doMiss Rebecca terribly.
Joel and Rebecca got to meetthough, so that was great.
This is now, uh, Joel and I'Spodcast.
So, um, welcome, welcome.

(00:52):
So Joel and I met on Twitter, noidea.
Don't remember how we were both,

Joel (01:00):
We're both working in the same industry, so that's how we
got to know each other.
And you know, you, you and Iboth have mutual friends and I
don't know how the conversation

Jamie (01:08):
those mutual friends are.
We have no idea.
Did

Joel (01:12):
Yeah, that's right.
It's just, it's just ourimaginary mutual friends and,
uh, yeah, and we started talkingand we just kept talking, so
that's it, which was great.

Jamie (01:24):
So brought Joel on to talk about all the ways the
modern musician especially isbeing, worked to death, and
having to do way more than justfocus on their music, which
wouldn't that be great if that'sall you had to do.

Joel (01:44):
Yeah.
Yeah, that would be great.
I do like the other stuff I'vegotta do as well.
There's a lot of fun in it, butit is a lot.
So

Jamie (01:52):
It's a lot for one person.
It's

Joel (01:53):
it is a lot for one

Jamie (01:54):
doing a million jobs.
It's too much.
You're an artist, Joel.
You should be making art, notwriting copy.

Joel (02:03):
you ask, but Sure.
No, you're right.

Jamie (02:07):
Anyway, Joel, tell us a little bit about, uh, your band,
red Heaven.

Joel (02:12):
Okay,

Jamie (02:12):
get going.

Joel (02:13):
so I have been running a band called Red Heavens since
kind of 2011 ish.
I think that's about right.
And it is, it's great.
I have, I've released somealbums, I've made some videos,
I've done some liveperformances.
I really plugged into the onlinething pretty early and did a lot
of streaming of my shows reallyearly, all through different,

(02:35):
platforms and, uh, and that'sbeen great.
it's making no money for me.
What else is new?
but it's just nice to, it's,it's, it's been a great it,
journey for me to, to have thisband.
And I'm about to release a newalbum.
I say about like, I'm about likefour months out from it.
But, uh, I have another albumcoming and it's, uh, it's
exciting.
Yeah, there's a lot of potentialthat a guy like me can exploit,

(02:59):
in this day and age to, to bringsome of the musical dreams to
reality.
And I'm trying to do that.

Jamie (03:05):
Yeah.
That's awesome.
That's funny because I guess I,I think I met.
You around 2011, so, oh, okay.
is it 2012?

Joel (03:16):
20.
No, no, no, no.
2011, you're right.
Nevermind.
2011,

Jamie (03:19):
about right.

Joel (03:21):
Yeah, that's about right.

Jamie (03:22):
I was very much in like the

Joel (03:24):
Very much

Jamie (03:26):
moth,

Joel (03:27):
moth.

Jamie (03:28):
amplifi amplification era.

Joel (03:31):
Yeah.
The first two albums were calledAmplification, and the second
one was called Moth, and that'swhen I was working on him.

Jamie (03:37):
So actually wait, tell me, I don't even think we got
into this, what happened withSoundCloud?

Joel (03:42):
Oh, SoundCloud is moving in some new directions.
And one of the things thatthey're doing is they are taking
the material that is uploaded byartists and they're using it to
train ai, without, uh, without,I mean basically the, the terms
of service are, is if you uploadto SoundCloud, they use your
stuff to train ai.

(04:03):
And I was like, no, I'm sorry.
That's not gonna happen.

Jamie (04:06):
God, that's so fucked up.

Joel (04:09):
Yeah.
A lot of the distributors anduh, publishers are, are doing
that now.
They're either sort of doing itas like, if you want to use the
service, you, you have to let ustrain our AI on it, or it's an
opt-out situation.
And it's always buried so deepin the terms that people don't
know what's happening.
So if I wasn't like checking,like I don't know why, even now
that I'm saying this, I don'tknow why I do this, but if I
wasn't checking like, blogs andlike, uh, um, uh, YouTube stuff

(04:33):
about like law enter,entertainment law, I wouldn't
know this was happening.
But, but I've been following itpretty

Jamie (04:39):
So a lot of musicians, like new music musicians just
get like bamboozled.

Joel (04:45):
Yeah, so I mean, a lot of people aren't super familiar
with how this works, so I'lljust give you sort of a
thumbnail sketch.
What happens is AI has, AI isgreat at, um, making stuff up
that resembles, an authenticversion of whatever it is.
And in order to do that, it hasto like gorge on massive amount
of data.

(05:05):
So it basically has to listen toevery song ever recorded and
released to be able to figureout how to write a song.
And so.
you know, so people who aretraining AI are the people who
are gonna make money from it,right?
So they just wanna shovel allthe music, all the, the, all the
songs they can into it so thatit can learn and just get
better, right?
And the, the thing is, there'sno compensation for an art, an

(05:28):
artist.
So if I do a bunch of albums andthey shovel my stuff into, into
ai, and then somebody says, Hey,ai, can you make a song in the
style of red heaven?
And they can do it?
And, uh, none of that goes backto the artist.
So, so I was like, well, youknow, if you wanna make money
off my music, you can't do itfor free,

Jamie (05:48):
You're gonna have to pay me first.
But also that's fucked up.
Like, listen, I've heard some ofthe shit, like some of the AI.
Songs that like people have madejust to be funny and it's awful.
I mean, even just copy becauselike, you know, like I have
journalism background and AI isruining everything that I've

(06:14):
been doing for my career for thepast like

Joel (06:17):
Yeah.

Jamie (06:18):
13 years.

Joel (06:19):
And so one of the, it, not everybody is aware of this,
which is totally fine.
It's just one of those nerdthings that I follow.
But one of the things that, issort of currently in contention
around the AI issue is that, uh,the people who run ai, open AI
and, and Google and Facebook andthe people who are working on
their AI systems, they're alllike, we don't train on
copyright materials.

(06:40):
We don't do that.
We just train on, on publiclyavailable materials.
And then there are all sorts oflike tells in the, the stuff
that AI generates that sayslike, no, you don't, you train
on copyright and stuff too.
So the idea is basically, youknow, the, like they scoop
everything that's on YouTube,everything that's on Spotify,
and they use that to train theai.
We're still in the denial phasewhere they're saying like, no,

Jamie (07:02):
because they're all like filthy liars that.

Joel (07:05):
so, yeah.
and where all that's gonna go?
I'm not really sure.
Unfortunately right now, a fewgovernments are really, um,
making it easier for AI to beable to do that, or, or for
companies run AI to do that.
So anyway, why did I deleteSoundCloud?
Because they're like, we'll,just take your music and train
our ai.
Like, that's fine.
Right?
And I said, it's not fine.

(07:25):
So that's why I did it.
Yeah.
Plus like, who goes to mySoundCloud?
nobody goes to my, I don't go tomy SoundCloud, so like, I, it
wasn't exactly a big loss forme.

Jamie (07:34):
that's why I stopped listening.
Honestly.
You weren't on SoundCloud so

Joel (07:38):
Yeah, no, you, you're not the first.

Jamie (07:40):
you're not on Spotify.
You're not on SoundCloud.
I just

Joel (07:43):
I bound, no, I dropped Spotify as well.
Um, ethical concerns, and, uh,the thing about Spotify, a lot
of people don't know thiseither.
like Spotify is, uh, I don'twanna go into too much of a rant
about this.
It uses up a lot of time.
But basically Spotify isincrementally, They're basically
abusing the, the art artists andthe material that they make, and

(08:06):
it's increasing over time.
It's becoming more of a dirething over time.
So, um, you know, for instance,there's an, a payola element now
where if you wanna be heard, yougotta pay something.
there's a whole thing of like,if you don't have a thousand
streams, I think a month or, orsomething like that, then they
don't pay you at all.
and I'm, that's the thing Idon't get into, like basically
if they're using my music, ifpeople are listening to it,

(08:28):
which generates revenue forSpotify, and then I get nothing,
even if like I'm getting like 25cents or whatever, like I
understand that it's not gonnabe much, but if they're like,
no, we'll just hold that back,that's ridiculous.
So anyway, I don't wanna dwellon that too much, but that's why
I pulled it off Spotify becausethey're only getting worse and
they're only gonna keep gettingworse.
And I will not say that I waspersonally offended by the

(08:48):
things that like Daniel Eck hasbeen saying, but it did indicate
to me that they are not.
Thinking about this as a way tosupport and foster the
development of artists, andthat's their right, but I don't
have to be

Jamie (09:04):
Yeah, exactly.
That's very interesting.
I'm sure it'll change, I guessas like,'cause you know, music's
been around forever.
Podcasts aren't quite there yet,even though they've been around
a while now.
But like

Joel (09:16):
right?

Jamie (09:17):
Spotify, I.
Spotify is actually pretty good.
Like we don't use Spotify as ahost, but they're pretty good.
I like researched a lot andcompared a lot when we were
trying to figure out who's gonnahost us and, um, they like
really help.
they like feature just like aand coming podcasts.
They let you like easily addlike your videos and reels or if

(09:39):
you do clips like, yeah, theyjust have all these ways to like
sponsor, but I'm sure it'll likeflip.
As soon as they've done that fora little bit, then they'll be
like, how can we fuck overpodcasts?
Like, we're fucking over musicmusicians.

Joel (09:54):
one of the ways that they're, one of the reasons it's
not the only reason, but one ofthe reasons they're in
interested in podcasts otherthan it being a burgeoning
market, is that, um, they, theagreement with the user is that
if you meet these conditions, wepay X amount, and X is a small
number in this case, but like,we'll pay X amount to, you know,
if you get streamed.
So what they do now is theyoffer bundles to, to users when

(10:17):
they're signing up for a planwhere they get like podcasts and
music and stuff like that in thebundle.
It, it is a loophole in thecontract.
So if people who sign up for thebundle.
Stream your music.
You don't get paid for thatbecause under the contract it's
because it's in a bundle.
It's not counted towards,regular streams.
So when you say like pod, youknow, they're really good with

(10:38):
podcasts.
I'm like, yeah, they lovepodcasts right now because
they're trying to create thissituation where people buy and
bundles instead of just likestraight up streaming music.
And that's how they get outtapaying artists, uh, musicians
like

Jamie (10:50):
I didn't even know that.
me.
You're like, that's how they getout of paying artists, musicians
like me, Jamie,

Joel (10:57):
It is, yeah.

Jamie (10:58):
I was gonna, I know we touched on, you know, just
wearing multiple hats and likedoing so much and not getting to
focus on your music as as much.
tell me a little bit about allof the little hats you wear like
this one, a top of your headright now.

Joel (11:14):
yeah, this one.
They're not all little.
I got a

Jamie (11:16):
That's his podcast hat.
That's his podcast

Joel (11:18):
I'll go with you on this.
Yeah.
A lot.
I mean, a lot of this is justlike my, my public facing hat.
I'm still getting used to, I'mstill getting used to metal
pattern baldness, but we'll,just like, that's a different
podcast.
So, um, I, I can go into thistopic pretty deep, but I will
try to skim, so help me, help meif I don't.
But basically, the way it usedto be in 1992, I was doing music

(11:44):
and I was, younger and

Jamie (11:46):
And I was in second grade.

Joel (11:47):
to picture, but it's

Jamie (11:48):
Go on.

Joel (11:50):
Thank you.
Yep.
I was looking very much at themusic industry at the time.
one of many books that I readwas Frederick Dannon's Hit Men,
which I highly recommend foranybody who wants to read it.
And after reading that, I waslike, there's literally no
chance.
There's no chance I can beanything in the music industry.
Like, it's just impossible.
And it's kind of true.
it's really hard to get signedin 1992.

(12:12):
And then you gotta do all thisat that time, if you wanted to
get signed by a major label,you, and that was the way, like
you get signed by a major labelor forget it.
And at that time you had to likefind a way to get into a major
studio and record for$250 anhour to make a demo.
And then somehow the demo has toend up into the, in, in, uh,
the, record company's hands andthey have to like it.

(12:34):
And then they'll, that's wherethe conversation begins about
your lousy contract that's gonnamake you broke.
And so I was just like, you knowwhat?
It can't happen.
There's no answer.
I know we're really in adifferent time, and I love this
time.
Like I, it's exhausting, but Idon't wanna lie about the fact
that I kinda love this becausejust with my computer and what I

(12:56):
have in this room, I can do aprofessional album at the level
of, of any, uh, almost anything,but like, I got what I need to
put out a pro level album, and Idon't have to rent a

Jamie (13:06):
That's what I was gonna

Joel (13:07):
I don't have to,

Jamie (13:08):
you just do all your own?

Joel (13:10):
I just do all my own stuff.
And I, you know, I, I, uh, evendr stuff like drums and stuff
like that, I just clear out myliving room and set up
microphones and I record inthere and it works great and it,
but it requires a lot more.
And this is where sort of theburnout angle comes from.
So.
It used to be, back in the olddays, gather around children.
Grandpa's gonna tell you astory.

(13:30):
So back in the old days, recordcompanies all had what was
called like an artistdevelopment, and they used
different names.
So it was a, artist ar repartist representative or artist
relations.
And they basically, the job wasto work with the artist to
develop them, bring them along,give them resources they
wouldn't normally have.
And this was especially true inthe sort of leading up to like
the eighties.

(13:50):
Things started to change alittle bit in the eighties, but
basically that was in a broadbrush.
That's basically how it worked.
And, um, you know, you neededthat, like you needed to work
with people like that to, todevelop to the level of being
like, you know, like Duran Duranor, or

Jamie (14:07):
Well also just to like to figure your shit out, right?
Like when you're starting out,there's so much.

Joel (14:15):
And so the difference is now there's been a lot of change
in the, where the, how and wherethe money flows in the music
industry.
particularly with regard to howrecord companies get their
money.
And I will, I'm trying to figureout the right way to say this
really, like succinctly, butmuch of how the record companies
got money was, in my view,unethical, or at least it was,

(14:40):
um, exploitive of artists.
Uh, so for example, the way thatyou would get an album made, and
this is like, this is common,this is, I'm not just sort of
citing some like random,

Jamie (14:50):
Oh, we fact check everything.
We're journalists up in here.
We'll fact check you.

Joel (14:53):
All right, excellent.
Well, that makes one of us.
what they would do is they'dsay, okay, well, you're gonna do
a studio album.
We're gonna lend you$250,000 tomake the album.
And then, you know, we say,look, but like to do that,
you're gonna have to changethese songs.
And like, we're kicking this guyoutta the band.
We're gonna replace him withsomebody else, but like, we'll
lend you the money to do it.
So you go ahead and do it, andthen you owe that money to the

(15:15):
record company and that moneycomes outta your royalties.
And so the money that you makefrom the CDs, or like whatever
it is you're selling, is dividedup into chunks.
Obviously the, a big portion ofit goes to the record company
and then you're after thingslike manufacturing and you know,
the gasoline that goes in thetruck that drives it to Missouri
or like whatever.

(15:36):
After that, what's left over isyour royalties, and that's the
money that's used to repay theloan.
However, you are the last to bepaid.
So your royalties pay first to,uh, the studio time,, gasoline
that goes in the truck, thecaterers, all that sort of
stuff.
Everybody gets paid.
The artist gets paid last.
And so if you still, if there'sstill money to be paid out,

(15:59):
you'll never pay back a$250,000loan doing that.
So then you're in, put intothis, some artists just go
bankrupt.
Especially because like afterthey record your album, they can
then say like, yeah, you knowwhat?
We've decided not to release it,but you do owe us the money
still.
And so that can happen.
oh, oh yeah.
Yeah.
'cause they're not obligated toyou to do that.
So, um, a lot of,

Jamie (16:19):
credit card companies and

Joel (16:22):
every single

Jamie (16:23):
banks giving you loans.

Joel (16:25):
So what, what would happen is you end up in this kind of
endless cycle of ha eitherhaving to do another album to
generate revenue, to pay off thefirst album, and then like a
tour because you can't afford,you know, that sort of thing.
And, uh, you get, and a lot ofthese, a lot of people, that's
why a lot of artists end upbankrupt.
So anyhow, things changed andthings changed in a really

(16:48):
interesting way where like, Ican make an album here if I want
to, and I don't really need an,I don't really need somebody to
lend me$250,000 anymore.
And so that dynamic, thosecontracts that were so scary in
1992 that made me think like, I,I'll literally never do anything
in the modern day.
I can kind of do the whole thingmyself.

(17:10):
There are parts like, are, arehard for me to do things like
distribution marketing, that,that gets a lot more difficult.
But it, it is interestingbecause obviously the record
companies are like, no, no, no,no, no.
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
Uh, we could still help you out.
But what they, what recordcompanies do now when they sign
you is, They're making so muchless money from you than they

(17:32):
used to.
They need, they, they expect youto have everything done and they
expect you to, everything isyour, your responsibility now.
So that whole a and r, like thatwhole artist development side,
that's over now.
So you have to have not justyour finished recording, but
you've also gotta have like yourown marketing team and you've
gotta have your own graphicartist.
You gotta have all that stuff.
And so, that's kind of wherewe're at now.

(17:54):
I would not sign a recordcompany, a record contract right
now if it was the standardcontract that I know gets given
to schmucks like me.
So like, if I, if you're beyond,say you pretty much write your
own ticket, right?
And everybody's like, yes.
Master whatever you wish.
But for like a guy like me,they're just gonna be like,
we'll, uh, we'll lend you, we'lllend you, uh, here's what we'll

(18:15):
do.
We'll lend you a thousanddollars.
You pay back$250,000, and by theway, we're not gonna do
anything.
It's a lot more like that.

Jamie (18:22):
say, we'll lend you 1000 and you'll pay back 250

Joel (18:26):
I'm exaggerating like a little bit, but you get the
idea.
because e the system of howrecords get made and distributed
has changed, but a lot of thepeople who make the decisions in
the industry have not changed.
And so what they're doing isthey're still thinking like, how

(18:47):
do we do like 1993 numbers whereif you wanted to buy, like if
you, if a band had like onebanger song, you gotta buy a$20
CD to get the one song.
How do we do that again?
But right now people aren'tbuying CDs, they're streaming
individual songs.
They're also like, discoveringnew songs.
Does they're the record.
Industry is no longer,gatekeeping that like they once

(19:09):
were.
So anyway, all of that to sayis, and this is a long way of
getting there, but I wanted tokind of underline it with a
little bit of a story, which isif I wanna have some kind of
success, and it's more availableto me now than ever, like in
1992, there literally is a brickwall.
Like you just can't get, like,how am I supposed to come up
with$250,000 to record an albumby myself in 1992?
But now I just, you know, I justget a, my computer and my, my

(19:31):
stuff and I, you know, I watchYouTube videos of how to do
stuff and I get helpful andbrilliant and, and skilled
people to help me when I can andthen I can release on my own.
Now the problem with that isthat whole artist development
and artist support system is notthere.
So this is what I'm getting downto and it's a long way to get
there.
But basically, so I write a songand I perf, I perform it, I

(19:55):
record it, I sing it, I do allthat sort of stuff.
I, in theory, I would, you know,mix it, master, I have people
help me with stuff like that andlike with drums and stuff, but
you get the idea.
Then that's kinda where itbegins.
And then after that, like I'vegotta figure out something to do
with, I've gotta do somethingwith Instagram, you don't get to
not be on Instagram, right?
Unless you're in a very specificniche.
And it could exist.

(20:15):
I just, but that's not me.
So I have to be on Instagram.
But that's the thing is if I'mgoing to engage Instagram, well
now guess what?
Now I'm a photographer.
Now I'm a graphic artist.
Now I'm a copywriter.
Now

Jamie (20:26):
Video

Joel (20:26):
video of

Jamie (20:27):
Yeah.

Joel (20:28):
myself and I'm like, Hey, well, I'm doing a thing on
Thursday night.
Like, I get a moron, but that'smy job now.
that's me now.
And that's all on me.
So like a, aside from the factthat I have to acquire some of
those, tools, it's not a lot.
But like, you gotta havePhotoshop and you've gotta have
some kind of video editingcapacity.
Now that's on me, right?
And what that means, there'sanother implication of that,

(20:49):
which is now, it's not just thetime and the skills to create
art and to write copy and to golike, Ooh, how do I edit a photo
in Photoshop?
So it looks good.
But it's also like you, now yougotta understand algorithms,
right?
Which change constantly.
So you gotta be like, what?
What do I do that teachesInstagram that I am worth

(21:09):
putting in front of people whodon't know me yet, who are most
likely to get interested in mymusic?
You gotta be on that.
Otherwise, what's the point,right?
You're just doing this and likenobody's seeing it.
So again, all this stuff isdoable.
It is doable.
And pe and there are people whodo it mostly, like people who
are like half my age and likewhatever.
But, that's the job now.

(21:30):
And so there are very, you,there's, there's different
angles and there's like, it'snot one size fits all, but if I
was gonna sort of get onaverage, that's the job now.
And so touching on the theme ofthe show.
You can burn out on that becausethere is all,

Jamie (21:46):
about it honestly.

Joel (21:49):
I got into this so I could write and perform music.
Like why am I studyingalgorithms to try to figure out
how to trigger some key words sothat Instagram will decide to
advertise me to people who wouldlike to hear me.
And that's, that is exhausting.
And I, it's, I don't carry aresentment for it.
Like, it doesn't make me angry.
I'm not remember, like thesepeople was like, oh, the old

(22:10):
days it was so much better.
No, it was terrible.
In the old days, you had likezero chance in the old days.
And, and I mean, like fewerpeople in like 1992 or 85 or
whatever, fewer people made waymore money.
So in other words, the, thenumber of people who won the
lottery was.
Way fewer, but they would be,you know, this, you like your

(22:32):
Michael Jackson's or Huey Lewisbut now like a musician who's
not like wild, crazy famous anddoing like a Pepsi commercial
and has like branded shoes andstuff like that.
A an artist who is not at thatlevel can actually like, make a
living, can actually like, makemoney and sort of survive on it,
you know, especially if theymanage to get to the point where

(22:53):
they're make enough that it's,it's not their second job.
Once you make that transition,it's your first job.
You can, you can do it.
It's not easy.
And the thing is, it meansletting go of the ego-based
dream of being famous and thematerialism based dream of being
rich.
But if you can let go of thosetwo things, you can get a lot
done.
And I love it.
And I love the fact that if I'm,like, I just wanna do an album.

(23:15):
Like I don't have to check withanybody.
Nobody, I don't have to be like,oh, sir, you know, at the record
company, sir.
Sorry

Jamie (23:21):
Beyonce, please.
Can

Joel (23:22):
wondering, yeah.
Yeah.
would you please allow me to doan album of like, I don't have
to do any of that.
I can just do it.
And I love that freedom, andthat's not something that was
really available to artists, youknow, 30 years ago.
However, if I'm gonna say thatI'm really tired and burned out,
I would say this is why, becauseI'm not interested in

(23:43):
algorithms.
Like when I'm just drinkingcoffee and sitting on my front
step, I'm like, ah, just thinkabout algorithms.
Like, what can I do?
Like, I never think about that,

Jamie (23:50):
about algorithms

Joel (23:51):
something you have to be interested in it.
You have to know it to be ableto pro proceed in marketing your
stuff.
And you know, you have tounderstand things like you have
to play the game and, you know,like, fair enough, like I, I
much prefer an industry in whichI have, in which it's an
incredible amount of work tosucceed versus there's no

(24:12):
chance.

Jamie (24:13):
And just hearing you talk about record labels, that's
payday loan territory.
That's all I was thinking whenyou were talking about this, and
I didn't realize that.
That's insane.
That's something

Joel (24:22):
Yeah.

Jamie (24:23):
I didn't

Joel (24:24):
And look, that's standard.
And that's standard.
And I wanna tell you somethingelse about record companies is
that contract that I was talkingabout, the one where you get
loaned all that money, it'simpossible to pay back.
They know it's impossible to payback and.
That's if they even decide topay you back.
So like the contract says X, Y,Z, the contract is usually not

(24:47):
very fair, but there's a lot ofshenanigans that happens.
And so for instance, you get asituation with a guy like, you
know, James Taylor, he's been,he had to take his record
company to court literally 125times to get his royalties.
So just because, just becauseit's in the contract doesn't
mean they're gonna do it.
So under ideal situation, youmay still not get paid.
Even if you check all the boxes,you're like, you know, we sold

(25:09):
all these albums, all this sortof stuff.
You may

Jamie (25:11):
And then you need to start learning

Joel (25:13):
like,

Jamie (25:14):
yeah, like law, like you said, basically.

Joel (25:17):
I start learning.
No, you do.
You absolutely

Jamie (25:19):
mean, get a lawyer obviously, but also like read up
so you know.

Joel (25:24):
Yeah.
And I mean, part of learning thelaw stuff is knowing what's
outside the scope, right?
So that, you know when you golike, okay, this actually, this
isn't fair.
Even though my record companywho seem like nice guys, they
tell me it's fair.
You know, like, like that's thesort of stuff you gotta learn.
So that's another thing that Ithink that people get exhausted
less by honest work, by hardhonest work than they do by the

(25:47):
mental exhaustion of having tooutthink all of the ways in
which forces, which have nothingto do with the art, are trying
to either defeat you completelyor pick your pocket on the way.
And I think that's the partthat's exhausting to me.

Jamie (26:03):
Yeah, you're burnt out.
I hear you.

Joel (26:07):
Not like, I mean, I'm burned out, but like, happy,
like I'm, I'm, I'm a prettyhappy guy in general.
I, but I am, I, I have made somechanges in how I approach
marketing my material and thosechanges are gonna stick for
good.
yeah.
Actually, with regard to theburnout

Jamie (26:25):
Yeah.

Joel (26:25):
I do wanna talk, if, if you'll let me, I wanna mention a
couple things about that becauseI just feel like it's a good
part of the story, that's all.
which is, I just, it was about ayear and a half ago.
I'm not sure.
It was, it was something likethat.
All I know is folding laundryand I was listening to a
podcast, so that could have beena lot.
Anyway, I was listening to apodcast called Search Engine
hosted by PJ Vote, and he hadEzra Klein on the show and a

(26:50):
well-known podcast journalists,the guy who founded Vox, all
that stuff.
And they were talking about thequestion of, is there a sane way
to use the internet?
And it's a great episode.
So if you're a podcast kind ofperson, I highly recommend
checking out search engine andlooking for that episode.
Is there a sane way to use the

Jamie (27:09):
We'll put that in the show notes

Joel (27:10):
a year and a half ago.
One of the things that Kleintalked about was the burnout of
chasing the algorithm and howthat creates inauthentic
content.
So how you get a somebody, thething he said was so
interesting.
He said, influencers on socialmedia who are real influencers,

(27:33):
who are actually in influencersdon't act like influencers,
quote unquote.
he said, but the ones who aresort of like, like faking it, do
all of that pretentious stuffthat we think of influencers
doing.
I just thought that was superinteresting.
And what he's getting at is allof the inauthentic content

(27:58):
created on social media that is.
Meant to ensnare, um, the, theviewer, not to communicate with
but to ensnare, but also toensnare the algorithm, basically
to get the algorithm by thethroat and communicate with it.
And to basically bend it to yourwill.
And he said, doing that createsinauthentic content on, it's not

(28:20):
really coming from you anymore.
Like it's not the real youanymore.
And I had this experience, andit was, I'm glad I did it, but I
learned a really importantlesson I think it was 2022.
I released, 2022.
I released the Ever TurningWheel, which is the most recent
album that Red Heaven did.
And

Jamie (28:37):
that the, was that the marketing campaign one.

Joel (28:39):
Yeah, that's the one.
So I did like a 30 day lead upto the release of the album.
And it was like this real socialmedia.
And I was like posting videosevery day.
It was like a, like a virtualtour.
Like every day if you're on aspecial guest list and I have
your email address, I wouldemail you a, a link to a page.
It was like a secret page andyou could see like videos and

(29:00):
like interviews and like allsorts of interesting stuff about
a specific song on that day.
And like every day it was like anew thing.
And I just, I followed therecipe to a t like, and I did,
and I don't think it was amistake.
Like I believe in that stuff.
Like I believe in creative andnovel ways to market stuff.
But weirdly, and I can't, I'mnot gonna pin this solely on.

(29:23):
The campaign, but it was mylowest selling album of all
time.
What I learned from the podcastwith Ezra Klein when he was
talking about sort of slavishlyI.
Chasing the algorithm all thetime is that, it, it risks
creating inauthentic content.
And so what he said he was doingis he was changed his, his

(29:45):
marketing, direction where hebasically just like opened up
Gmail.
Like not like a MailChimp or a,any of that sort of thing, but
like just a, just an email.
And he just put people in the,the address, who were like
people that he cared about andhe knew, cared about him, and he
was interested in them, and theywere interested in him.
And I think he said like, peoplewho, like, if I met them on the

(30:06):
street, I would give him a hug,you know, like that kind of
thing.
And just people who are sort ofclose to him.
And then he just typed out like,here's what I've been doing, uh,
what have you been doing?
You know, and like just that inthis email, he sent that out and
I started working a lot morelike that.
where I'm not trying to, I'm nottrying to, I.
I'm trying to connect a lot morewith people directly now with

(30:27):
the music and talk to peopleabout my music, and so I take a
lot more time.

Jamie (30:31):
Yeah, that's actually one of the things I did when I,
'cause I got.
I got laid off like five monthsago or something like that.
And, uh, I kind of redid mywebsite portfolio and my resume
and everything.
And one of the things that Ifocused on was like, and I put
it like this, and maybe it'scheesy, I don't know, but I

(30:51):
always say I create content forhumans, not an algorithm,
because I think that's soimportant.
but it's just interesting seeinglike, yeah, it's just like the
parallel for all d you know,musicians like con, I mean,
content creators.
I guess you're a content creatortoo.
but we're all like alwayschasing the algorithm and it

(31:11):
does, it's just like, it ends upbeing impersonal.
And I always say like, you'redoing marketing and SEO wrong
if, like, that's what you'reputting out, people, that's not
gonna resonate with people.
People aren't gonna wanna readit, people aren't gonna wanna
listen to it.
they want.

Joel (31:27):
And people are also, they're also used to it, right?
So when you come at somebody,with something that
algorithmically is supposed toensnare them and catch their
attention, uh, whether it'sdirectly or like it's a trick,

Jamie (31:41):
Or like it's a

Joel (31:41):
are pretty savvy to that now.
Well, but, but honestly, uh,there's a great example again in
that podcast where, PJ Volt wastalking about, like, I think he
was in, I think he said SanFrancisco.
but basically there's a thingthat they were, that he ran into
where he is like walking downthe street, and then like some
guy comes up to him and goeslike, Hey, hey, hey, I'm bother.
I'm sorry to bother you, but Iwas looking for this Italian

(32:03):
restaurant supposed to be downhere, and it's supposed to be
like really, really good.
And he, and, um, volt would saylike, oh, I, I am sorry.
I don't know that.
He was like, well, you're luckybecause here it is.
And like, it turns out he's justlike marketing for the, the
restaurant.
And nobody wants that.
nobody likes that.
Right.
So when I hear that, I feel likethat is actually,

Jamie (32:25):
one of my worst nightmares right there.
Sounds awful.

Joel (32:28):
I know there's several stages in that story that are
like nightmarish to me, but itdoes it, people are not
receptive to tricks or sort oflike al algorithmic based,
methods of pulling them in.
and so, I find that it makeslike sort of bypassing that it

(32:48):
makes me a better person.
It makes me more attuned tohaving real authentic
conversations with people justlike people

Jamie (32:57):
Authenticity.

Joel (32:58):
guy would with people, right?
And not like, oh, how do I, howdo I, you know, game this to
make it more authentic?
I just mean like just being aguy, right?
And, uh, and I connect withpeople much better, but the fee
for having that kind of qualityinteraction is letting go of the
compulsive notion that you haveto sell to people all the time.

(33:21):
So that's, that's, and I, Ithink that's a great trade, to
be honest.

Jamie (33:25):
Yeah.
No, I, I, I do too.
Google has messed up a lot ofthings for a lot of people
because of the algorithm.
yeah.
Uh, speaking of algorithms,

Joel (33:40):
Yes.

Jamie (33:41):
I hear you have a story about Facebook algorithms.

Joel (33:45):
Oh yeah.

Jamie (33:46):
favorite.

Joel (33:47):
For a while it was like a year, if not a year and a half,
I was doing regular Facebooklive shows.
I flip on the camera, I do mysongs, whatever, and people
would come to the show andwhatever.
And I'm doing video and I'mplaying guitar and it's this
whole thing.
And, and I didn't realize it,but like it didn't really go
anywhere.
There was no momentum, there wasno nothing.
Like, it was just, and it wasdiscouraging by the end, like

(34:08):
after 18 months of just like notmuch happening and I was trying
to figure out like, where am Igoing wrong?
'cause I'm putting in hashtagsand I'm like posting in a
certain way and all this sort ofstuff.
One thing I didn't know, is if,if you do say like an hour of
live streaming on Facebook andother platforms are similar, I
just don't know the particularsof all the others.

(34:30):
But if you do like an hour livestream on Facebook and somebody
comes into the, the live stream,watch us for five minutes and
then leaves, that tells thealgorithm you're not very good
and this is not veryinteresting.
And so maybe what happens islike a friend is popping in and
going like, Hey, I can't stay,but I just wanna wish you luck
with the show.
And then they go, like, thatwould happen all the time when I

(34:51):
would perform on Facebook.
But the algorithm's like, oh,this guy must really suck.
'cause people are not staying.
So that was one way of basicallyshooting myself in the foot.
The other thing was, I wasadvertising on my personal page
a lot as well as my red heavenpage and just like, Hey, I'm
doing this thing.
So I get my mom who's lovely,but like she'd bring all of her
friends who are sort of intheir, their seventies.

(35:12):
So we, I would do these showsand what would happen is my mom,
who is very supportive, wouldcome in and she would bring like
six, seven of her friends whoare women in like their mid
seventies.
So the alms rhythm is trying tofigure out what does this guy do
exactly?
Like, okay, these women, theylike Richard Clayderman, uh, za

(35:33):
Fear, um, the theme music fromthe Golden Girls and like this
kind and red heaven.

Jamie (35:38):
Who doesn't like the theme music from Golden Girls,
first

Joel (35:41):
red Heaven must be like the other three.
So when we're showing this to

Jamie (35:46):
Manalow.

Joel (35:47):
we're gonna show it to people who like these things.
Exactly.
However, we're not gonna show itvery often because people leave
his show all the time, so hemust suck.
But when we do show it topeople, it's gonna be people who
like Barry Manalow and Neil aka,and like that kind of thing.
So that's the kind of thingwhere like, I gotta watch my

(36:07):
back all the time for what thealgorithm is doing.

Jamie (36:11):
It's another trap.

Joel (36:12):
So anyhow, with as far as the question of burnout goes,
that's just another factor.

Jamie (36:18):
You need to teach your friends and family about what we
on Twitch, at least, like tosay, like, oh, I'll tab, you
can't stay, but I'll tab you,I'm an lurk.
We call it a lurk.
So

Joel (36:30):
yeah.
Yeah.
You should explain to peoplewhat that is so

Jamie (36:33):
So if you keep, if you can't like attend or whatever,
but if you can at least keepthat browser tab open, keep that
browser window open, you'll stayas a viewer for that person.
So that helps support them.
And you can mute the tab.
Yeah, even like, I encouragelurkers, even if you,'cause some

(36:53):
people sometimes don't feelcomfortable saying anything in
chat and that's totally fine.
is Twitch a good place toperform livestream music?
Are there prerequisites?
So that's something Joel and Iwere talking about.
I don't know.
I think I need to give Joel thathomework to check it out because
I was telling him he shouldstream on Twitch.
I just don't know how it works.
'cause there's a lot of likelegal mumbo jumbo when it comes

(37:15):
to music.
I follow some musicians, someDJs, some musicians, some
people, a lot of people actuallyon Twitch do covers, so people
in chat, they have like, you canrequest songs and they have a
request queue and they'll playthose covers live.
I don't know how that worksthough, with licensing.

(37:36):
I have no idea.

Joel (37:37):
Yes, it's complicated, but it does.
O one of the things I mentionedto Jamie when we were talking
about this is that Twitch has ahistory of being weird about
license and content stuff.
and I don't know if that's stillthe case, but it used to be a
thing where, and this happened,I know some people this happened
to, so that's, I was a littlebit wary of this, where like

(37:58):
you'd go on Twitch, play yourown song, Twitch would copyright
strike you, which for those whoof you who don't know, this
basically means like, Hey,you're stealing somebody's song.
They would copyright strike youand then go straight to deleting
your account, deleting yourchannel.
And that was a little, like, Iwas a little bit like that's too
like, yeah.
It's a, and it's just likeunpredictable for me.

(38:20):
Like even fa, even YouTube,which is notoriously
unreasonable when it comes tolike working through issues of
copyright violations and stuff.
Even YouTube's better than that.
I don't know if that's still howTwitch is with, with music, uh,
and licensing stuff, but that'swhy I haven't gotten into it up
to this point.

Jamie (38:39):
Yeah, I'm not sure, but I would say, look into it.
Liz said she tried it once andit is a lot of, I.
Bumbo jumbo, but be a word forthe

Joel (38:50):
say that.

Jamie (38:51):
of like, saying things in chat.
I just call it introverted.

Joel (38:56):
Uh, Liz knows a lot about a lot of the stuff I'm talking
about, and she knows it from alot of different angles that I
don't.

Jamie (39:03):
Liz, just get in here.
I'll kick him out.

Joel (39:06):
Liz is singing on my new album and, it's great.
I'm really excited for you guysto hear what she does.
I'm really

Jamie (39:13):
I know.

Joel (39:14):
with the material and, and I, we work really well together.
She doesn't say anything thathurts my feelings and in my
book, that's like a greatworking

Jamie (39:23):
So we could never have a great working relationship is
what you're saying.

Joel (39:28):
n no,

Jamie (39:29):
Like every

Joel (39:30):
Like I, I wouldn't even take a long car ride with

Jamie (39:33):
Oh wow.
Wow.
Okay.

Joel (39:36):
I don't wanna cry while I'm driving,

Jamie (39:39):
It is hard to cry and drive.

Joel (39:42):
You know what you're like.
So

Jamie (39:44):
do know what I'm like.
and I'm amazing.
So maybe talk about a little bitof your journey, like doing live
shows and how you started doingthat?
virtually.

Joel (39:57):
I have, a hangup around,

Jamie (40:02):
Yeah.

Joel (40:03):
This.
And so I'm like, oh man, Ialways resist explaining this,
but I'm gonna try.
so in 2007, I started usingSecond Life, and for people who
don't know what that is, it is avirtual community in which you

(40:23):
basically make a little guy andhe walks around and it's like,
picture a game, but there's nogame.
It's just like people walkingaround doing stuff.
But it's kind of cool toobecause like in the virtual
world, you can also like, youcan build things and you can
also do things like you canstream directly into second

(40:44):
Life, which means you can listento music, right?
and so it's, it there's a lotof, and some people have done
some absolutely.
Genius level stuff like, likeeven past my own wildest dreams
of what somebody could do andfar beyond my own skill.
But in 2011, I started playingmusic in Second Life and I get

(41:07):
my little avatar guy and he'd belike, I'm playing music and then
streaming and basically any ofthe other avatars that are in
the zone nearby can listen to meperform when I do that.

Jamie (41:18):
Can they mute you?

Joel (41:19):
I have, yeah, but I mean, they're, the thing is they're
not there unless they want tohear me.
but that doesn't mean they'renot muting me,

Jamie (41:27):
Sounds a little egotistical.
I don't know, Joel.

Joel (41:30):
yeah.
Well let me, it's sort of likesaying if you're in my living
room while I'm playing guitar,you're probably there'cause you
wanna hear me play.
So I have done probably northof, so, uh, fine Kei has been
with me since the beginning ofmy music thing in Second Life.
And I.
Think I've done north of like2,500 shows, if not

Jamie (41:53):
Wow.

Joel (41:54):
Every time I say it, every time I say that to her, she's
like, I dunno, but I have themall, I record them

Jamie (42:01):
but then does she like check up

Joel (42:03):
stupid folder.

Jamie (42:04):
to try to prove you wrong?

Joel (42:05):
No, I think I think the thing is over time she has
gotten used to me beingconsistently wrong on anything
that involves numbers, which,you know what?
Fair.

Jamie (42:15):
actually.
Yeah, I get that.
I hate

Joel (42:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So anyway, doing that, reallybrought along my skill as a
performer and an engineer andmy, as a singer, and really
galvanized the band.
And it really started off asjust me playing my dopey songs.
And then like, over a period ofyears, like it became a band and

(42:39):
we're like, you know, we, I'mnot bragging, but like, we won
some awards.
We're on tv, we release albums,we get all this.
Like, it turned into an actualband, which was kind of cool.
And people are like, well, so,so how do you do these things
online?
And I don't wanna tell them thatI'm playing an avatar in Second
Life where

Jamie (42:55):
Hey,

Joel (42:55):
because they're like, whoa.

Jamie (42:56):
is for

Joel (42:57):
is that where you go to do, be to?

Jamie (42:58):
get it.
We get it.

Joel (43:00):
No, I, that's probably true, but I don't wanna say
like, that's the world wherepeople go if they wanna be a
robot cat.
Like, I, I just feel like

Jamie (43:08):
Or like a furry, are you a furry sometimes in second life

Joel (43:11):
or if, or a, for a.
Never a furry, uh, I think I'dprobably mean like more of a
prickly if it was gonna be, uh,labeled in some way.
But I dunno, I'll get, I'll lookinto it, but, uh, yeah.
So anyway, I still perform inSecond Life, uh, fairly
regularly.
It, it goes back and forth.
Like sometimes I do more,sometimes I do less.
Right now I perform between liketwo and four times a month, so

(43:33):
it's not a lot.
But, uh, sometimes in the past Iperformed like three times a
week, so it just, it depends.
But, uh, yeah, I'm still doingit and I still like it.
And what's kind of cool about itis, there's two things that I
just love about it.
One is I make a little bit ofmoney doing it.
Not tons, but I don't lose moneydoing it.
And the other is I get a littlebit of a following.

(43:54):
It's not like fame, but it'slike just a little bit of a
following and it's just nice,you know, it's just like I meet
people and it's really cool thatway.
And like it's so.
Bizarrely human.
And despite what it sounds like,like people are just really
great to connect.
And that leads me to the secondthing I love about playing in
Second Life so much, which isthat I have never performed for

(44:15):
a more open-minded audience inmy life.
Like people who are there.
you don't have to be perfect.
And like, you can also be like,I'm playing a country Western
song now I'm playing a rocksong, now I'm playing a, a jazz
song.
Like, whatever.
And people are like, yeah, fine,do it.
Like, it's great.
Whereas like if you're in a barand you're doing

Jamie (44:31):
get like booed

Joel (44:33):
like they're gonna f they're gonna fire you,

Jamie (44:35):
that Yeah.
I'm like, you'll get booed.
You're like, you'll get firedactually.

Joel (44:39):
yeah.
The blues usually precipitatethe firing.
So,

Jamie (44:42):
Was that a pun?
Booze.

Joel (44:44):
in that way I'm very grateful that I've had Second
Life and I kind of feel in away, like the music scene in
Second Life, who.
That has been home to sometruly, like, incredibly
musicianship.
Some people that I'm just like,what are you doing here?
Like that.
But what I do love about it, andI don't want to, I don't wanna
overgeneralize, but one of thethings I absolutely love about

(45:08):
it is that it's not a musicalopportunity just for people like
me who kind of like brush upagainst like the, the
professional stuff where it'ssort of like professional
adjacent, but it's also justlike, you know, it's a, there's
a single mom, she's 25 and youknow, maybe she's unemployed and
she used to play guitar when shewas in high school, but she

(45:28):
doesn't really have time anymoreto go out and do that.
But she misses it well.
Like she goes in a second lifeand she plays for an hour and
people listen and they love itand just lets.
I love it because it letsordinary people just connect
with the opportunity to createmusic without having to make it
into a, a, something where theyhave to compete with others.

(45:52):
I just, I love that.
In fact, the reason I got, well,the main reason I got into
performing in Second Life in thefirst place is that I was in a
position where I couldn't form aband.
At the time I lived in a citywhere like I didn't know anybody
and they were French speaking.
My French is not that good.
I didn't have a space topractice in and just, there was
like, so I was like, I'm justgonna do this, and it turned out
to be fantastic.

(46:12):
So yeah, I highly

Jamie (46:13):
you met Liz there too, she said.
I didn't realize that.
That's awesome.

Joel (46:17):
I did.
Yeah, I met Liz there and, fineante.
I met her there too.
I met a lot of great people inSecond Life and people who like
in real life, I'm friends withthem now,

Jamie (46:25):
that's like me apparently with Twitter and Twitch and

Joel (46:29):
Yeah, but the thing is like you were never in the robot
cat zone, so it's less of aleap, you know, where in second
life, It's a little moreanonymity.
but anyway, yeah, so that's howI got, that's how I got started.
And then after about a year anda half, I was doing a lot of
shows and I was writing a lotand, you know, like recording a
lot of stuff at home.
And I spoke to my, my bestfriend, whose name is Aaron, and

(46:50):
I sat down with him and I'mlike, what should I do next?
Like, I'm doing this, I didn'texpect to do this.
What should I do next?
He said, do an album.
And so we did, uh, the firstalbum, which is called, uh,
amplification.
And that's, and then I didanother one, and then I did
another one, and then I didanother one, and I did another
one, and now I'm working on

Jamie (47:05):
And now we can't get him to stop.
Ladies and gentlemen.

Joel (47:09):
yeah, no, I'm not stopping.
I, I mean, I might this is thesixth album that I'm about to
release and uh, it might be the

Jamie (47:19):
No.
You'll release more albums.

Joel (47:23):
Look, Jamie, I'm 56 years old.
I can't keep spending myretirement money on these albums
that don't do

Jamie (47:30):
Hey, what else are you gonna spend it on?

Joel (47:32):
I food and shelter was what I was thinking.

Jamie (47:34):
You're not a true artist then.

Joel (47:36):
You know what?
I'll, I can live with that.

Jamie (47:39):
As long as I can live.

Joel (47:40):
I, I am, I am gonna say that, the money's a, the money's
a, a concern.
I've blown.
I wouldn't say blown.
I'm glad I did it.
I'm glad I did it.
But the money is a concern.
It's cheaper now to do a highquality album than it's ever
been, but it's not nothing.
And this is actually one of thethings that like, what's the,
what, uh, Daniel Eck fromSpotify gets wrong where he says

(48:03):
it costs nothing to make analbum to do music.
That's not true.
It costs nothing to make anextremely narrow sli yeah.
A very narrow sliver of, of, ofa genre.
you could make the argument, butlike, what I do, like I gotta
get my guitars set up every twoyears or like, forget it, right?

(48:24):
Like, I gotta, there's, I gottahave microphones, I gotta do all
that stuff and.
So, I mean, the money is aconcern is clearly not a major
concern'cause I keep spendingit.
But, uh, the money is a concern.
But also, I thought after theever turning wheel, the last
album, I thought I'd gotten to apoint where I just didn't have
any more ideas for red heaven.
Not no music ideas, but I justthought, like, like I've done, I

(48:46):
don't know how to iteratefurther on what I've done.
I came up with stuff, but like,maybe after this album I'm gonna
be like, yeah, I think that's awrap.
Like, I don't have any more redheaven ideas.

Jamie (48:55):
Yeah, but you thought about that at the end of the
other album, and now you'remaking another album.
So

Joel (49:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And maybe I, maybe I will, butlike I might do something
different, musically

Jamie (49:07):
We'll just run it by all of us.
We'll let you

Joel (49:09):
don't, yeah, making albums is also kind of tricky.
It's a, it's a bit of an, itworks, but it's a bit of an, an
antiquated idea because, Peopleare consuming music In album.
In album as as an album.
they're, yeah.
It's different now.
They don't do like, there'sstill people who are buying CDs.

(49:29):
Absolutely.
I sell CDs, which is as big asurprise to me as it is to you.
But a lot of people arestreaming now and they will
expect you to deliver music in away that accommodates the way
they want to hear, hear it.
Which is fair.
Absolutely fair.
but the concept of doing analbum, I don't know if that

(49:49):
works.
Like it used to, like, it usedto be an, like a band to put out
an album and it'd be a bangerand you get the whole album at
once and it'd be like three anda half years, they would, maybe
four years they'd do anotherone.
it's not like that.
And it is not like that anymore.
And so, I don't wanna force itto, to make an album just
because that's something that'smeaningful to me as a Gen X

(50:10):
musician.

Jamie (50:12):
Sure.

Joel (50:13):
I dunno.
I, I, there's a lot of stuff Ireally haven't thought through
yet.
Clearly, so.
but yeah,

Jamie (50:18):
What were you saying about like Spotify and stuff?
I keep losing my train ofthought because I am, I'm
actually listening to you, Joel,like I'm proud of myself.

Joel (50:27):
Yeah.
No, it's the first foreverything.

Jamie (50:30):
I'm doing a good job, hi, marina.
I was getting Taco Bell, but I'mhere now.
You can start the show.
Perfect.
We can start the show now.
Marina's here.

Joel (50:38):
Okay.
So anyway, I'm a musician andI've been a, yeah.

Jamie (50:41):
again, please.
Oh my God, dear God.

Joel (50:43):
Rewind.
yeah.
So let's talk about being burnedout and what you do about that.
do you want, do you wanna talk?
I, I'm trying, I'm just tryingto stay on brand for

Jamie (50:53):
it is On brand.
It's all on a brand.
Like being on brand doesn't meanwe're like, I'm burnt out.
Let's talk about being burntout.
I mean, it's just, burnout comesin many shapes and many sizes
and many types and people areburnt out for different reasons.
Work, hobbies, career, family,sickness, pain, mental health.

(51:17):
So

Joel (51:17):
I, I heard a really interesting thing on the radio
years ago, and I wish I, I'msorry, I don't remember what
exactly.
What the show was.
But I remember hearing thisthing, it was basically a guy
who studied, it's moreinteresting than it sounds.
He studied annoyance and whatannoys people and how, like what
the qualities of something arethat annoys you.

(51:39):
And he was saying, so forinstance, there's a neighbor

Jamie (51:42):
for the follow fair.

Joel (51:44):
who's, there's a neighbor who's listening to, or like,
like play doing loud something,work in their yard at like
certain times of the day.
And it's like, it's annoying.
And he was like, well, breakingthat down, what are the
qualities of that thing thatmake it annoying?
One of them, one of the thingsthat makes it annoying is that
it's intermittent so that it's,so that it starts and stops

(52:08):
irregularly and you don't know

Jamie (52:10):
So it's like a little jarring.

Joel (52:11):
pattern is.
Yeah.
And he said the other thing isthat you never know, if you
don't know when it's gonna end.
That's the other thing that'sreally, can be really annoying.
And so, you know, if somebody'sgonna start working on their,
their deck or whatever, usingloud power tools for five

(52:31):
minutes, they only need to dofive minutes work.
But those five minutes soundidentical to somebody who's
gonna do it for two hours.
And like, you don't know.
So that, that to stress.
And the reason I mention allthis is because I think one of
the real burnouts for people whoare stressed out with like the
combination of work life, homelife, all of these things is
that, oddly enough, those thingshave a lot of the same qualities

(52:55):
that.
Annoying things have, which isthat they're irregular.
You don't know what's gonnahappen next all the time.
And the other thing is like, younever know when it's gonna end.
And I think a lot of people wholike go to the same job every
day, which is a great thing todo.
I mean, I'm not saying thatthat's, that's a bad decision,
but like, go to the same jobevery day.
After a while they start tothink like, is this gonna ever

(53:15):
end?
And like, you know, it's gonnaend, but it sure doesn't feel
like it.
And I think that those thingscontribute largely, very much
to, to burnout as well and, uh,exhaustion.
And I think one of the angles toexamine that by is by looking at
like, what's the opposite?
Something that has.
Pattern has structure, goes along way to calming the, uh, the

(53:39):
psyche in the, you know, in, inthat way.
And I think also something thatis like, you know, where it's
going and you know what it's forgoes a long way to battle that
internal, like just the mentalburnout, which I think is the
worst burnout, the mentalemotional burnout.
I think that's part of it

Jamie (53:56):
Yeah, no, I think that's a huge part of it.
I think it's just also whenyou're working, and this is
definitely coming from like myexperience and you're working
your ass off and sometimes it'slike, oh, a special project and
like we need this done quicker,so you're gonna be working a
little bit longer hours.
I think I had definitely havebetter boundaries now, but it

(54:18):
took me until I was like in mymid to late thirties to I think
really solidify thoseboundaries.
'cause like back when you and Imet, I, you know, you were
telling me that I had such greatwork ethic, like I had no work
boundaries.
That's probably why you think Ihave such great work

Joel (54:31):
No, you No, no.
It's, you do have a great, youhave a, you have a, you are
impressive in your professional,practice.
But I think that, havingboundaries is something that you
learn just as you get moremature, but like your, your work
ethic is

Jamie (54:48):
Boundaries are hard.

Joel (54:49):
for some people, yeah,

Jamie (54:51):
Not for Joel, but

Joel (54:52):
just to speak to, well, no, I mean, like, and there's so
many fronts on which to createboundaries.
So some people are good at somestuff and not others.
So, Strava said something yousaid, do you get, burnout from
battling what you want to createversus the pressure of the
algorithm?
Like what you're saying?
No, I don't.
And I, speaking to that, lookingback, I would say I didn't get

(55:18):
that.
I might have gotten thatfeeling, but I didn't get it
because I have been consistentlyunrealistic about what people
are gonna like when

Jamie (55:29):
don't you just

Joel (55:30):
So I'll create

Jamie (55:31):
you want and what you feel and what you like.
Do you really create for anyoneelse right now?

Joel (55:38):
yes.
But what I'm talking about islike.
I always just assume everybodywill get what I'm, get what I'm
doing.
and that's the part that'sunrealistic is that, that often
there's something and I'm like,this is not sour grapes at all.
It doesn't bother me at all.
But every album, there are acouple songs that PE or maybe if
I'm lucky, three or four songsthat people really like and

(56:00):
click with.
And for me, I like them, butlike there'll be a couple songs
sort of in between where I'll belike, that's my favorite.
And like, nobody cares aboutthat song and I'll put it in my
set anyway because I'm like, Ijust love this song so much.
I want to play it, I want tohear it.
And then people are like, yeah,but I really like that other
one.
So, all of that is to say str Ihave, I have not given it much

(56:22):
thought, and I definitelyhaven't given it any worry
trying to please the algorithmin terms of how I write and how
I produce and that sort ofthing.
I have given it a lot of thoughtand worry when it comes to
marketing and trying to figureout what to do.
That part has is stressful, butI honestly, I just write what I
write

Jamie (56:42):
fair.

Joel (56:43):
I, yeah.
Yeah, and it's just better, likeif you write music that you
yourself want to hear.
That's the point, right?
Like, like why would you writesomething that you yourself
wouldn't listen to?

Jamie (56:53):
I was thinking,'cause you were saying like some songs mean
something to you.
If I recall, let's see if I'mright.
It's been a while.
It's been like, I don't know, adecade since I thought about
this.
Wasn't a little moon written aslike kind of like a lullaby one
of your daughters or started

Joel (57:12):
You got right story, wrong song.

Jamie (57:16):
what song?

Joel (57:17):
So I'll tell you the, about both of the songs.
first of all, little Moon is asong I wrote from my friend
whose name is Duren.
She's Irish.
So it's one of these names wherelike, you're never totally sure
if you're pronouncing itcorrectly unless you actually
are Irish.
You know, she's just anincredible singer, incredible.
And like, she's a lawyer, super,super smart, really talented.
I just felt like I, she, I justwanted to write a song that

(57:39):
would help her to feel betterwhen she was so scared

Jamie (57:41):
I love that.

Joel (57:42):
was why I wrote that.
The other, the song you aretalking about is a song I wrote
called Beautiful You and

Jamie (57:51):
Yeah,

Joel (57:52):
Yeah, that's the one.
So when my oldest daughter, myoldest daughter's now 27 and
married, and so it's been awhile, but when she was little,
she was, I have two daughters,one of them my youngest, when
you put her to sleep, basicallyas her body is touching the
mattress, she's like out

Jamie (58:10):
that's like every man I know.
I wish I could do that.

Joel (58:14):
Putting, putting my older daughter to bed was easily an
hour of of work, if not more,just like getting there.
And so I had, I would sit by hercrib with an acoustic guitar and
just play this riff over likethis little sequence over and
over again.
And if you listen to the song,you'll hear that's the, the

(58:34):
opening part of that song is thepart I would play.
And you know, oddly at 27, shedoesn't want me to come and play
that anyway.
Like, I don't understand, like Iwill literally go and sit by
your bed and play it.
And she's like, no, I'm fine.
So, um, there's that

Jamie (58:48):
Wait, is she the one that's married?

Joel (58:50):
s Yeah.

Jamie (58:52):
Like I'll come over play it for you guys.

Joel (58:55):
Anyhow, so what happened was, no, I wasn't asked, so I
should tell you both mydaughters.
Think I am like super uncool andthat my music is even more
uncool than I myself am.
So they never act, say like, Heydad, pull out the guitar and
play that song.
You're like, never happened.

(59:15):
It's never happened.
But my occasion, yeah.
Yeah.
I, I mean like I have a greatrelationship with'em, so I'm
saying it, I'm laughing, butit's just, yeah, I'm a little
surprised too, not so much thatthey don't recognize what I do,
but just like they were neverreally interested in doing any
kind of music with me, which isfine, but it's something I
thought would happen thatdidn't.

(59:36):
So anyway, as my daughter gotolder and I was no longer
playing this thing next to herbed, I was like, well, I liked
this song.
So I added a chorus to it, andthen I just produced it and
added some lyrics, which itdidn't have at that point.
And so I wrote a song about mytwo daughters, and that was
actually a cool writingexperience because as a rock
musician, everything you writehas a, there's a darkness in it

(01:00:00):
somewhere.
And, somewhere in it.
Right.
And this song I intentionallywrote without a shade of
darkness in it anywhere, whichwas, I found out, was much
harder for me than I thought,And, uh, yeah.
So anyway, it was, but I thinkthe crowning, the gem of that
song has nothing to do with me,is I had my friend who is also a
collaborator, who is a Mastersitar player whose name is Ward

(01:00:24):
Che, and he played Sitar on it.
And I think that the sitar wasthe part that

Jamie (01:00:28):
guitar.
Yeah.

Joel (01:00:30):
good.
Yeah.
He took it from good to Great.

Jamie (01:00:32):
Did he play on other songs?
'cause I thought you had

Joel (01:00:36):
Ton, tons of songs.
Yeah.

Jamie (01:00:40):
Okay.

Joel (01:00:40):
it is interesting because, and I like this is fine.
People don't know and like, Idon't think any less of it
before, but like I play a lot ofArabic, there's a lot of Arabic
influence in the music, in a lotof the music that I write.
And a lot of people don't know.
They know I'm not playing aguitar or that, like they'll
hear something be like, that'snot a guitar, but they don't
know if it's like, is it asitar?

(01:01:01):
Like everything that's not aguitar is a sitar basically.
So if it's like Saud sitar, ifit's a, a dobe sitar, if it's an
ood sitar, you know, like thatsort of thing, which is like, it
just makes me laugh.
Like, you know, if people don'tknow, that's totally fine.
But that's something that

Jamie (01:01:15):
What is a, like, um, Richard D.
James of Aex twin using a, whatis it?
A

Joel (01:01:23):
it

Jamie (01:01:24):
Di dig.
Dig?
Yeah.

Joel (01:01:28):
I don't feel like I should speak about the Radu while Liz
is in the chat because she'slike, actually Australian.

Jamie (01:01:35):
You hate it.
You hate it?
Are you saying you hate it?

Joel (01:01:38):
I like the, I as far as instruments that play one note,
it's my favorite.

Jamie (01:01:43):
Oh, yeah.
I love it.
I thought you were gonna shit onit.
So

Joel (01:01:47):
No, it's, it's an amazing instrument.
If, if I, I've found thatbringing in music from other
cultures from around the world,there's two secrets that I've
come up with.
One of them is if you want asong to pull somebody's
heartstrings.
Put a sitar in it.
If you wanna rock, if you want asong to like really rock hard,

(01:02:09):
put Turkish percussion in it.
Those are

Jamie (01:02:12):
What is Turkish percussion?

Joel (01:02:15):
It's like dobe mainly.
That's kind of the, theworkhorse of the do of Turkish
percussion, which is like agoblet clay goblet drum.
And the reason it's called Dobeis because those, the sounds it
makes, make do beck are the twosounds that it makes.
And, uh, it's like fire.
Like when you see somebody playBeck, who really knows what
they're doing, it is incendiary.

(01:02:37):
And so there's a lot of fire inthe Turkish percussion, which is
why I put it into the, into therock stuff.

Jamie (01:02:42):
horn.
Where's the,

Joel (01:02:44):
Oh yeah, I've done that too.

Jamie (01:02:45):
Love says straw bitch.

Joel (01:02:47):
I don't under, I don't understand banjo.
I know what it is and I lovehearing people play it, who know
how to play it.
I'm not one of those people, soI wouldn't know how to use it in
that way.
so I banjo, I.
Mutual respect, love might beoverstating it.

Jamie (01:03:02):
That's fair.
No, I love the sitar on yoursongs.

Joel (01:03:07):
I do too.
I do too.
I do too.
And it was actually really coolworking with Anwar because I
learned a lot about Sitar too.
And a great example of the kindof thing you gotta learn as a
western musician

Jamie (01:03:19):
How are you like

Joel (01:03:21):
is,

Jamie (01:03:21):
don't,

Joel (01:03:22):
I don't know how I'm triggering that, but whatever.

Jamie (01:03:25):
fine.

Joel (01:03:26):
I don't understand what young people do with this.
Anyway.

Jamie (01:03:29):
Get off my lawn.

Joel (01:03:30):
there's two things.
So if you guys know the songNorwegian Wood by The Beatles in
which George Harrison plays

Jamie (01:03:37):
That was also my nickname in college.

Joel (01:03:38):
Sounds Norwegian Wood, or George.
Or George Harrison.

Jamie (01:03:44):
one, please.

Joel (01:03:45):
The, uh, it sounds fantastic.
It's a beautiful sound.
But what's interesting is heknew that he was taking the
sitar and adapting it to a styleof music.
It wasn't designed to play, andhe wanted to play something
authentically sitar, likesomething that's Indian, right?
And so on Sergeant Pepper, theydid a song called Within You And

(01:04:07):
Without You, in which GeorgeHarrison sort of did like proper
sitar music.
And I had to make a lot of thesame kind of Anwar really helped
me to figure out not just how asitar works, but like what does
a sitar player do when he's gotit?
And that has really been lovelyfor me to know because I've been
able to bring some of that stuffinto my own, like as a

(01:04:27):
guitarist, I've been able to usesome of that stuff.

Jamie (01:04:30):
That's awesome.

Joel (01:04:32):
He taught me a lot.
I learned a lot from him, and Iwas really grateful.
We know where he lives, not veryclose to me, and he's like super
busy, so we don't see each othermuch, but he's taught me a lot
as a musician and I'm reallygrateful for that.

Jamie (01:04:44):
And that's like when I told you kind of the biggest
thing, like we're about here atthe Burnout Collective was like
it first started just with theidea of community and like not
being alone and lifting eachother up and supporting each
other.
And I feel like you've found,you have like a really great.
Like artist, musician, communitysurrounding you.

(01:05:06):
Like people you found.
Yeah.

Joel (01:05:09):
I do.
And so I really live in a, in astate of abundance.
'cause there's these amazingpeople who lend so much to me
and have, take these littleseeds of ideas that I have and
just blow them up.
So they're incredible whenthey're done.
And people say like, oh, it's sofantastic.
And I have to admit to themlike, I wrote it, but like, I
didn't create this whole scene.
Like this is a, this is acollaboration with geniuses.

Jamie (01:05:32):
Yeah.
Oh, now tell, okay.
Now tell us, a little bit aboutwhat you're working on right now
and where people can find you.

Joel (01:05:41):
okay.
Okay, so right now I'm workingon an album called Let the Dead
Things Die.
And I love working on thisalbum.
I love the songs that are on it.
And one of the things that'sreally cool about it is that
the, the albums that I've donebefore this were a combination
of new songs and songs that Iwrote like 30 years ago that I

(01:06:01):
just never put out before.
The Let the Dead Things, dietsall new songs that I've written
like in the last three years.
And so it all feels really freshto me in a really great way.
And I'm trying some new stuffwith guitar.
I'm trying some new stuffvocally, lyrically as well.
And so like I'm really into it.
I am expecting it shouldprobably be out in November and

(01:06:22):
I hesitate to say that, but Ithink it, I think November's, I
think November's the, when it'sgonna come out.
Yeah, I just released a singleabout a month and a half ago
called Martyr.
And Martyr is a video and a songthat's about 10 Baha women in
Shiraz, Iran in 1983 who are putto death.
Um, so that's, um, that's reallyspecial to me.

(01:06:43):
I am on the precipice ofreleasing the next one, which
will happen this summer, and thenext song's called Somewhere,
someday.
And I have a video ready to gofor that.
Pretty soon I have to finishmixing the song, but, but we're
pretty close to that.
I'm gonna do two more releasesafter that, before the album
drops, and we'll

Jamie (01:07:00):
Are they releases from the album?

Joel (01:07:02):
find

Jamie (01:07:03):
Okay.

Joel (01:07:03):
Yeah.
So if you wanna find anythingthat I've got going on, it's red
heaven.ca.
I usually echo everything there.
if I it on my socials, it'seither Red Heaven or Red Heaven
Live.
Those are, those are the twohandles that I use.
Don't look for me on Spotify.
I don't use it.
I'm not gonna start using it.

(01:07:24):
don't look for me on SoundCloudfor the same reason.
And so, um, so yeah, there'sthat.
I do livestream.
I'm getting back into livestreamvideo on YouTube.
and I'm trying to kind of dolike every two weeks, every
three weeks.
Like I haven't really decidedyet, but all the information
about it will be on Instagramand Facebook, if that's a thing
you want to do.
So that's there.

(01:07:44):
Yeah.
Yeah, I am looking at, I've, Ifeel like I'm nervous to say
this out loud, but I am lookingat the possibility of starting
to do a lot more like live showswith the full which I don't do

Jamie (01:07:57):
oh wow.

Joel (01:07:57):
but I think with the new album coming out, it might be
kind of a cool idea.
So I've just been kicking thataround with most things.
It's like, where's the moneygonna come from?
That's really the, that's reallyit.
but I'm trying to figure outways to make that work because
one thing I will say is I haveit.
Great band.
And I have gone through tons andtons of people over the last

(01:08:18):
like 12, 13 years trying to findthe right people.
And I have the right people andthey are so good.
It is such, such a, not like anhonor and a delight.
And sometimes I am likeoverwhelmed by how good they
are.
So, I would, I guess what I'mthinking is I just don't wanna,
people deserve to hear theseguys play, so that's kind of why

(01:08:39):
I want to get into that.

Jamie (01:08:40):
I would love that.

Joel (01:08:41):
we'll see how that goes.
Yeah, it could be kind of cool.
So yeah, I think that's, I thinkthat's basically it.
I am very, interested and happyto respond to people who wanna
just chat personally about like,whatever.
So, um, there's no barrierthere.
I love meeting people and I lovejust chatting with people about
whatever, so don't hold back ifthat's a thing you want to do.

Jamie (01:09:03):
Awesome.
I won't hold back.
I will make sure to,

Joel (01:09:07):
Well, I know you don't hold back.

Jamie (01:09:10):
all right.

Joel (01:09:11):
I also wanna just tell everybody that like she's gonna
cut me off when I say this, butlike Jamie is one of the
smartest, hardest workingprofessionals that I know.
And that's the truth.
She is really something special.
So when I saw she was doingthis, uh, I knew this was gonna
be, I knew this was gonna besomething special and it is.
she's worth the burnoutcollective is worth a follow as

Jamie (01:09:33):
much.
Yeah.
And thank you guys forfollowing, and thanks everybody
for being here.
thank you.
Joel means a lot.
Thank you.

Joel (01:09:41):
it means a lot that you invited me.
Thank you.

Jamie (01:09:43):
yeah.
Now, yeah, now follow us onTwitch.
Joel, what the fuck?

Joel (01:09:46):
Also,

Jamie (01:09:47):
don't even follow.

Joel (01:09:49):
I have to figure out how to make it, I have to make,
figure out how to make an

Jamie (01:09:51):
Oh, I thought you did that.
All right.
I thought we were doing it live.

Joel (01:09:55):
No, I, I didn't, I realized I don't have to make an
account to watch the chat.
I have to make an account to,

Jamie (01:10:01):
To say

Joel (01:10:01):
type in the chat.
And then I was like, why am Ityping in the chat when I'm
literally on a microphone?
So,

Jamie (01:10:07):
yeah.
But thank you Joel.
Thank you so much.

Joel (01:10:11):
Really fun talking to you.
Thank you.
You've been very generous and Iappreciate

Jamie (01:10:14):
great.
Thank you everybody for beinghere.
Thank you.
Joel.
Red heaven.
Go listen to some red heavenguys.
See you later.

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