Taking PTO out of spite

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jamie (00:00):
I don't know guys.

(00:00):
I think she lost it.
She's not the spiteful.
Rebecca we once knew

Rebecca (00:05):
Oh my God.
I'm gonna get spied into beingspiteful.

Jamie (00:09):
spite it into me.
That's what I'm trying to do.
Is it working?

Rebecca (00:15):
Yeah,
I am Jamie.
And I'm Rebecca.
Welcome to the BurnoutCollective.

Jamie (00:26):
Hello.

Rebecca (00:29):
Hi, welcome back.

Jamie (00:33):
Happy Thursday.
No,

Rebecca (00:36):
Happy Thursday we made it.

Jamie (00:39):
feel like it's not a happy Thursday though.

Rebecca (00:43):
I'm gonna say for the next three years, it's probably
not gonna be a happy any day

Jamie (00:46):
The only good thing about Thursdays is the podcast.

Rebecca (00:51):
That is true.

Jamie (00:52):
A very happy Thursday, the day before payday.
Aisha, pay manic.
Thanks for being here.
PTO.

Rebecca (01:06):
PT fucking O,

Jamie (01:10):
you are cutting out a little bit and I don't know why.

Rebecca (01:13):
I don't know why either.
Again, it's a dick's with awayfrom my face.

Jamie (01:20):
I don't know why it's

Rebecca (01:22):
Because it's Thursday.

Jamie (01:25):
We wanted to talk about taking time off, being shamed
for taking time off, whetherit's like direct shame I guess,
or just like subtle cues you seeand like things happening, like
maybe even you don't see likeyour superiors taking time off

(01:46):
and so you're like, well, ifthey don't take time off, I
shouldn't.

Rebecca (01:53):
Yeah,

Jamie (01:54):
yeah,

Rebecca (01:54):
are.
If you're not, oh, sorry.
I thought, yeah, if we're gonna,if, if you're not like a good
manager or if you don't havegood management examples of
people who emphasize vacation oremphasize taking care of
yourself, you're not gonna doit.
You're not gonna learn how to doit, especially if that's your

(02:15):
first foray into the workplace.

Jamie (02:18):
If you don't have a good manager, if you don't have a
manager that, like as a manager,I really think, and we don't get
this, I know you and I make sureto be like this as managers, but
you don't typically get amanager who.
Encourages you.
So like, is verbally like, Hey,you haven't taken time off this

(02:40):
year yet.
Or like, Hey, do you have anytime off coming up if you don't
like, think about getting somescheduled?
because we've all, like, I knowwe've worked at startups where
they have, completely unlimitedvacation and, but they don't

(03:01):
like encourage it, but it'sstill kind of like frowned upon.

Rebecca (03:06):
Unlimited ation is used as a perk and a way to get
people in the door, but it'snever unlimited.
It's, it's not, it's flexible.
Then they call it flexible,flexible, PTO really, but it's
not unlimited and there are ahundred percent limits on it.

Jamie (03:24):
The last few places I have had unlimited PTO, I have
used it as unlimited PTO and Ihave not had problems.
or like maybe at the most, maybelike some, somebody like made a
comment, just like a side.
But overall, yeah, but it tookme so long to be able to feel

(03:46):
okay taking time off.

Rebecca (03:49):
You're very good at.
I mean, you, you are very goodat,

Jamie (03:52):
good at it now.
I think

Rebecca (03:54):
are,

Jamie (03:55):
I'm good at vacationing.
I'm good at not working, is whatRebecca's saying.

Rebecca (03:59):
No, I mean, you take it when you should take it

Jamie (04:02):
Yeah.
And

Rebecca (04:04):
and then you have to be like, bitch, you need to take
time off.

Jamie (04:07):
mm-hmm.
I'm always telling Rebecca sheneeds to take time off, but you
are now.

Rebecca (04:16):
well, I think it started too, I worked at, so my
second job ever, I worked at astartup and I couldn't even go
on a honeymoon because they'relike, we need you back here at
the office.
So I had like a three dayweekend to get married and then
I didn't go on a honeymoon.
'cause you know, big things were

Jamie (04:34):
Wait, has Rob still not taking you on a honeymoon?

Rebecca (04:38):
we've been busy with, there was the pandemic and.
Life and moving.
We'll go eventually.

Jamie (04:45):
I mean, you were already married 10 years when the
pandemic happened.
Listen to these excuses,Rebecca.
You're part of the problem.

Rebecca (04:54):
yeah, yeah.
That's what I mean.
I have a bad example.
I don't take time off.
And then when you work at placesas a young adult, when you
haven't really worked before andthey really frown upon it, or
they just flat out tell you, no,you can't take off right now,
which is what was told me.
You're just like, okay, wellthen I won't do anything

Jamie (05:12):
And you take that with you from job to job too.

Rebecca (05:16):
And then things change so drastically when you do take
time off, especially at startupsthat then there's a fear of
like, well, shit, I'm gonna losemy fucking job.

Jamie (05:25):
There's that too.
Yeah.

Rebecca (05:28):
have you gotten laid off like right after you came
back from PTO?

Jamie (05:36):
the most recently, I, I'm trying to think because I went
on vacation with you remember?
And then I got COVID and

Rebecca (05:46):
Yeah.

Jamie (05:48):
so I was off for well, I had COVID for like two weeks and
then I was off on vacation for aweek, so I was gone for about
three weeks and I, I did keepinto communication with my
manager because I didn't expectto get COVID.
I expected to come back.
How long after that were thelayoffs?
So the layoff was in likeOctober.
That was maybe close to Augustwhen I got back.

(06:12):
So it was like three monthsafter.
But a lot of people got laidoff, so I don't think it had
anything to do that.
But I'm sure there were somepeople who saw how long I was
off and were wondering,

Rebecca (06:28):
Student loan hero is mine.
I had just taken time off.
And then came back.
We all got laid

Jamie (06:36):
Have you like internalized that?
You're like, no, I can't taketime off.
'cause that's what happens.
No.

Rebecca (06:42):
Genuinely though.
Genuinely.
Or the other worst thing is yougo away and because the team is
so small that only you know howto do your job.
So everyone is fucked it upwhile you were gone and then you
have even more work to fix or noone did the work'cause they
don't know how and only you cando it and you're just so good at
it.
So then you have however muchtime of work you left for less

(07:07):
your regular work to fit,

Jamie (07:08):
and all.
Yeah.
And all the work you have to doto like prepare to be off and
then the work you have to do tolike catch up.
I think that's almost the worstpart about taking time off from
work.
is going back?
No, but like seriously is goingback and catching up.
'cause I feel like sometimes thefirst two or three days I'm

(07:31):
still catching up on emails,slack messages, questions from
writers, like stuff from, Idon't know, it just feels super
overwhelming when you get back.

Rebecca (07:48):
Yep.
I, yeah, I, I, it's just beenthe last couple years where I
trust enough that there's a teamthat I'm on that has enough
people and enough people tocover what I do, where I can go
away and not have to worry aboutit.
Because before, like even whenyou do take BTO, I was usually
bringing in my work computerwith me to just check.
And I think, I think that'sbecause of the nature of

(08:08):
startups.
Most of my previous positionshave been for startups, so
working for a company now that'sestablished and we have a larger
team and there's more people whocan do what I do and cover it is

Jamie (08:22):
probably people you trust too, that you're like, I know

Rebecca (08:24):
hundred

Jamie (08:25):
do a good job.
Yeah.

Rebecca (08:27):
This is the first place.
I've never brought my workcomputer with me on vacation.

Jamie (08:31):
Nice.
good.

Rebecca (08:33):
That's sad though.

Jamie (08:35):
when's your next vacation planned?
Like

Rebecca (08:38):
we're going to August.

Jamie (08:39):
cool.

Rebecca (08:41):
Yeah.
But startups, startups reallyfrown on any PTO.

Jamie (08:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I remember like that

Rebecca (08:52):
Yep.

Jamie (08:53):
even.
I'm still like that kind of,'cause what did I tell you?
I was like.
It's like, oh, I put Slack on myphone and you were like, Ugh,
why?
Because like, I do like, likefor me, I just like to, I dunno,
I read one of those articles Isent you when we were talking
about this, I'll link it in theshow notes, but it was talking
about how actually millennialsare the worst at taking time off

(09:16):
and they were ta

Rebecca (09:17):
happened right when we started working.
Isn't that what happened?

Jamie (09:19):
well I think what they were saying is like, we started
working kind of around like moreof like a boom in like
technology.
And at the time it was kind ofnew to be able to like do
everything on your phone andblah, blah blah.
And so like, it felt good toalways have, you know, your,

(09:43):
your.
Finger on the pulse of like whatwas going on at work, even when
you were gone, even when youwere like out at a doctor's
appointment, And so I think wegot so used to that, that now we
just automatically do it.
So even when we do take timeoff, we still get on our phone

(10:04):
and check in with people, or weget on our phone and reply to
comments or emails or Slackmessages and yeah.

Rebecca (10:15):
I won't do that.
I won't do that anymore.
I won't do

Jamie (10:18):
Good.

Rebecca (10:18):
refuse to have Slack on my phone.
I won't do it.
Like that's time.
I think, I dunno if it's'causeI've gotten older or'cause I
feel more secure, but I just amlike, no, this is not an
emergency.
Anything that happens here atthis place is not an emergency.

Jamie (10:32):
Yeah, very true.

Rebecca (10:34):
Actually anywhere I've worked, it's not an emergency,
but they make it feel likeemergencies

Jamie (10:39):
Yeah, they do.
They make it feel like life ordeath for sure.

Rebecca (10:43):
yeah, and with startups, because they have all
the quote perks, like we have akeg in the kitchen and free
snacks and we cater lunch everyday.

Jamie (10:50):
We have a foosball

Rebecca (10:51):
they do.
Yeah.
So it's kind of like work andplay.
So it's like you're getting avacation, but really though, and
that's the messaging you get,it's like, well, why would you
take time off?
You have.
Everything here

Jamie (11:04):
when I,

Rebecca (11:04):
and, uh,

Jamie (11:05):
oh, go ahead.

Rebecca (11:07):
no, no, no, no.
It's fine.

Jamie (11:08):
I was gonna say, when I was working a hybrid role, which
was the first job I had when Imoved out to la, I was in office
I think two or three days aweek, and they would order
dinner but have it arrive atlike seven or seven 30 and they
would like announce it right atlike five when people were like
getting ready to leave andthey'd be like, oh, we have this

(11:28):
coming.
Or like, we have, and it wouldalways be like, really good
pizza or like really good, justlike a really good restaurant
and.

Rebecca (11:36):
Then a speech pizza.

Jamie (11:38):
What a Venice Beach pizza.

Rebecca (11:41):
Then a speech pizza, yeah.

Jamie (11:43):
yeah.
So that's what they would do tolike, get people to say later
they're like, oh, we give youdinner.
And like a lot of us, were veryyoung too, right?
And we're living in LA so we'realready like really trying to
make ends meet.
and so it's like, oh, free food.
Like, okay, like I could usethat then I don't have to like
buy dinner or I can save mygroceries for this weekend, you

(12:08):
know?
So it was very appealing.
I did it sometimes, but a lot ofthe time I was just like, we
know what you're doing.

Rebecca (12:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And with startups too,everything changes so quickly.
So if you're gone for a week,legitimately so many changes and
processes like that, it's allbeen changed by the time you get
back and then you feel totallylost, and then you make mistakes
because you can't do your job.
And then it's like, are you evenputting in effort?

(12:38):
It's like, no, you guys changedeverything while I was gone.
What is happening?

Jamie (12:42):
Oh my gosh.
That was me when I came backfinally after COVID, because I
think those two weeks I hadCOVI, that was when I had a new
direct report under me.
Maddie was coming under me.
And I know it wasn't like thebiggest deal, but like I don't
want somebody to start under meand then I'm just not there for

(13:04):
her, like her first two weeks.
I'm sure she would've preferredI was there too, but like I know
she was like, oh, no big deal.
But like I did spend extraeffort.
Like I made her like a sheetthat was like, Hey, these are
the things you can do.
Have so and so.
Check on these and give youfeedback.
If you need help do X, Y, Z.
if you're still looking forsomething to do after you

(13:25):
complete these, you can do thisor ask our manager.
So yeah, that was not fun.

Rebecca (13:34):
think, no, God no.
And I think as we become, as, aswe evolve in our roles and we
get higher and higher up theladder, more and more of what
you do, revenue and SEO.
Is dependent on like what youdo.
And that's different from whereyou're just like, a monkey, like
a writer monkey.

(13:54):
Now it's like I have to givemonthly reports on revenue and
we have to look at traffic.
And why did it,

Jamie (13:59):
you remember being a writer monkey?

Rebecca (14:01):
Yeah.
And then I was like, I hatethis.
I'm gonna be an editor.

Jamie (14:06):
Someone

Rebecca (14:06):
But there's,

Jamie (14:07):
and you were like, I know I'm gonna do that.

Rebecca (14:11):
yeah, there's a fear though.
There's a fear though of justlike, I'm gone for a week.
I don't, I am, I'm currently incontrol of revenue and traffic.
A lot happens or doesn't happenin a week.
And so it's just, it's, and Idon't say this to be a martyr.
I know I'm a bad example and Istill should take it, but

(14:33):
there's just this fear at theback of my head that like, you
go away for a week, it crashesand burns, and then you come
back and it's gonna be on yourhead.

Jamie (14:43):
Yeah, I guess that did happen a little bit when I got
back.
I think it was like, oh, likeyour team wasn't producing as
much this month, and it waslike, did what we could.
I still, like I did, I eventalked to.
I would talk to people who wereunder me, like the editors that

(15:06):
were under me during that time,even though I was off because I
just wanted to like, check inwith them and make sure things
were moving as much as theycould without me.
but it was like, oh, yournumbers are like way down for
August.
So like, this isn't good.
And it's like, I was off for

Rebecca (15:22):
I was dead.
I was dead, honestly, for halfof August.

Jamie (15:25):
like, yeah, I took a week off, but I was also like, I had
COVID for the first time for twoweeks, would've been here if I
could have.
and so yeah, maybe that, maybethat felt like a little shammy.
I think overall it wasunderstood and I didn't feel
like too shamed, but, yeah,maybe a little bit.

Rebecca (15:47):
I am very lucky that I have a boss now who was raised
part-time in Europe, and hismother was European.
And the Europeans have a verydifferent view of vacation.
Like they take multiple weeksoff at a time and you can go
fuck yourself.
They're not coming back untilthey're done taking vacation.

(16:08):
And he, so he said out loud tothe team, like, I expect you to
take at least one week ofvacation in a row this year.
He's like, it'd be better if youtake two, but I know a lot of
you won't.
But, and that's a completeantithesis of anything that I've
heard before in any other roleat all.

Jamie (16:25):
Do you think it, do you think it's that we feel like
it's a trick even when like wedo finally have managers that
are like, please take time off.
Like, I need you to, like, Iwant you to take time off.
You have to take time off.
You need to do that to likerecharge.
You need to do that to take careof yourself.
And then we still don't

Rebecca (16:43):
because, and again, especially if startups are your
whole professional career, everytime you've taken off something
bad has

Jamie (16:52):
traumatic startup past.

Rebecca (16:54):
yes, and that's, but I mean, and then that's just the
nature of it.
It's, that's not usual foreveryone, but if you come from
that background, then you'rejust, you're broken pretty much.

Jamie (17:05):
Yeah.

Rebecca (17:07):
if you have shit bosses, you're rewarded for
like, well, you, you know,so-and-so's really putting the
time in and I mean, you justwent to Cabo,

Jamie (17:14):
Yeah.
And that's part of like seeingpeople around you that aren't
taking time off.
it's like, oh well, especiallyif it's somebody who's in a
higher position than you.
'cause you're like, oh, they'rein a higher position than me at
this company.
so that's who gets rewarded.
That's the kind of person theywant to see.
And this is the person who nevertakes time off.
And, I actually get annoyed withthat when I have managers that

(17:36):
like will take time off rarely.
And then the whole time they'rejust still like messaging.

Rebecca (17:45):
the worst

Jamie (17:46):
I've told them, I'm like, what are you?
Go enjoy yourself.
Or even when they're sick, I'mlike, you're sick.
Like, go rest.
What are you?
Why?
But

Rebecca (17:56):
because they're micromanagers.
Like the micromanagers are like,Hey, just checking in.
What's going on?

Jamie (18:02):
yeah,

Rebecca (18:03):
Get the fuck

Jamie (18:03):
but then I'm just thinking about the trauma that
they also have, and so I justfeel like

Rebecca (18:08):
Well, I don't know if it's trauma.
I think it's generationalboomers

Jamie (18:12):
it could be,

Rebecca (18:14):
and older Gen X.
You not have the same view ofPTO, that like Gen Z,
millennials do, like for them.
You, why would you take PTO?
Like it's not, it's not a thing.
or it's not really encouraged.
So I've had bosses who are olderthan me who are, not good at

(18:35):
that.
And I, I, again, I, I am, itwasn't like they're checking and
they just never took off.
Said, well, why would I need totake off?
We have Christmas and, you know,the 4th of July or whatever.

Jamie (18:45):
Yeah,

Rebecca (18:46):
Okay.

Jamie (18:47):
we have Christmas off, not Christmas Eve, but we have
Christmas off, and then we justhave a short week and then we
have New Year's day off.
It's fine.

Rebecca (18:54):
Yes, exactly.
Exactly.
And I think a lot of startupshave that unlimited PTO because
one, they're allowed to say noto your requests.
Two, you don't have.
Hours that are accruing thatneed to be paid out if something
happens to you afterward.
And because you're not takingvacation, that's an load of

(19:14):
hours that you're accruing andthey don't wanna pay that out
when you go.
So, I think that's their way ofgetting around it because it's,
and they did a study and it waslike, people who have unlimited
PTO actually end up taking lesstime on average,

Jamie (19:29):
Yeah, we needed to,

Rebecca (19:31):
recruit hours.

Jamie (19:32):
yeah, we needed to fucking work on that.
People in conclusion, take timeoff.
Take it.

Rebecca (19:38):
what about using PTO for appointments?
Have you had those positionstoo, where like you have to use
your vacation hours for

Jamie (19:44):
I have, it's been a long time since I've worked at one of
those places, but I have, I haveexperienced that.
Yeah.

Rebecca (19:51):
Ugh.
Turning in a time sheet for anhour and 45 minute for PTO

Jamie (19:56):
Or or being sick for like a longer period of time.
And then you had your certainallotment of sick days that you
were now out of.

Rebecca (20:06):
you get like a freebie one day, but that if it goes
past one days.

Jamie (20:09):
Well, yeah, they're like, oh, well you have to use your PT
like well sometimes too.
They were like, you can't usePTO for sick time, which I think
is like, huh?
Um, it's like, no, these arefor, these are your sick days
and these are your vacationdays.
So you have let, you have maybefive days of sick leave and then
what?
Two weeks of vacation time?

(20:31):
I don't even, I've been onunlimited for too long.
I don't know what the norm istoday.

Rebecca (20:37):
Not just vacation time too.
So actually, my company paysmaternity leave and they have
nesting leave before that.
So you get two weeks before thebaby's born and then you get up
to 12 weeks paid.

Jamie (20:50):
But When did nesting leave start?
Have they been doing that for along time?

Rebecca (20:56):
I've never heard of it until I came here.

Jamie (20:58):
I just now heard of it.

Rebecca (21:01):
Which, so that's a, to me, that's so generous.
But then B, you're able, as awoman, if you give birth, you're
able to fully recover.
You can, you know, you can spendhowever long with the baby and a
lot of people who can't affordto not be paid under a MLA end
up going back early because youjust can't go that long without
a paycheck.
So

Jamie (21:21):
Yeah.

Rebecca (21:23):
it's, um, I would argue that you get better work out of
employees who know that they'regonna be covered, like they're
gonna be, they're more willingto come back.

Jamie (21:30):
yeah.
No, exactly.
And I just, I, I think that'swhy it's so important to a big
deal about employees taking timeoff and invest in added
benefits.
Like, I mean, the number onebenefit, quote unquote benefit
is pay your fucking employeesfairly, pay them a living wage

(21:53):
for where they live.
but also just like the addedbenefits like that, like
maternity leave or like, I knowmy sister-in-law.
I think she had, it sounds, itsounds like she had kind of like
a nest nest period off then thewhatever maternity leave.
It was pretty generous.
And then also, like, I think herfirst two weeks back, two or

(22:15):
three weeks back, it was likehalf days, so they kind of like
eased her into it, which yeah.
Yeah.
That was amazing.
I feel like you don't get thatoften, but hey, paper.

Rebecca (22:27):
That document you sent, that article you sent, I kind of
wanted to go through that andtalk about the ways that they
recommend changing the culture,the culture around, PTO.
Just because I've never heard ofany of those before, ever, which
is sad, but I mean, they may begood ideas for other people out
there.

Jamie (22:47):
which one are you talking about?

Rebecca (22:49):
so actually they just list everything we just said,
like the replacement fearfactor, the shaming epidemic.
but then, so they, there areways that they encourage
employees to take off.
So, I don't know if I'd go forthis.
A lot of it is like featurevacationers and recharge
spotlights

Jamie (23:05):
oh yeah.
Listen, this company, like theirwhole thing is like, they help
companies highlight betterbenefits to keep employees happy
and keep employees healthy andkeep employees focused.
So don't read too much intothat, I don't think.

Rebecca (23:25):
Well, no, but I mean, like, it's stuff that, I mean, I
just never heard of a, anywherewhere they, where they'd
celebrate it or, uh, offer a revocation recovery day where like
you're not coming back.
'cause that's the other thing.
When you come right back into itand you don't ramp up, then you
just are like, why the fuck didI ever go?
So like, giving them a day tojust come back smoothly into the

(23:46):
workplace.

Jamie (23:47):
I factor that in myself.
I always like,

Rebecca (23:51):
a hundred percent.

Jamie (23:51):
yeah, I do a buffer day because even if I'm not gone,
even if I have, like if myparents are coming to visit or a
friend coming to visit, um, butthat's what I do now.
Like I guess I definitely thinkI have a healthier relationship
with taking time off now.
but man has that taken a whileand you know there's

Rebecca (24:13):
the pro.
Well, and I'm sure when youremployees come to you though,
they're like, I wanna take timeoff.
They're like, yeah, absolutelyyou should.
But you don't do the same foryourself.

Jamie (24:21):
Yeah.
I've actually, I've never beendenied.
Have you been denied when you'veasked for time off?
That's

Rebecca (24:28):
Again, I could not take a honeymoon,

Jamie (24:30):
Oh, that's right.

Rebecca (24:33):
but yes, I've been denied.
I mean, most startups, I justdidn't take time off.
'cause they were like, this islaunching or we've got this.
And it was just always basedaround like product or launches
or whatever, bullshit.
So there was just never a quote.
Good time.
It's just not a great time rightnow.
It's not.
It's just not the best time totake off right now.

Jamie (24:54):
I don't think I've ever been told, no.
I think I've been like, I thinka manager has kind of hinted at
the, that they'd rather Ididn't, but I was like, okay,

Rebecca (25:06):
I was not asking, I was just informing you.
So these are the dates.
I will not be at work, which Ican do now, but before it was
like, oh, okay, I'll just changeeverything.
I mean, I've changed andcanceled things, which is crazy
to me now, but

Jamie (25:24):
What was it that I, um, there was, I was gonna cancel.
Was it my trip with you?

Rebecca (25:30):
no,

Jamie (25:31):
I was gonna cancel something.

Rebecca (25:35):
I don't remember.
But you didn't, and you went,was it Mexico?
Yeah.

Jamie (25:42):
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah.
Oh crap.
I just realized the COVID was inlike early August and Mexico was
in September,

Rebecca (25:58):
Oh, that's right.
You dig it.

Jamie (25:59):
and then I got laid off in October, but I don't, I
really don't think that that had

Rebecca (26:05):
no, no, no.
But it's not great,

Jamie (26:07):
they did mass layoffs, so, and that's another thing
with like all the layoffs thatare happening, especially in our
industry.
of

Rebecca (26:13):
pe you're people, yeah, you're putting a target on your
back, whether we like it or not,people do have preconceived
notions about people who takemore time off than others and or
people who call out more.
and especially, like I said,older managers tend to do that,
or older generations tend to dothat.
Like you should really just besucking it up and going it in or
going in.

(26:33):
So if you're taking more timeoff'cause you're sick and more
time off, it's just, there'snothing, there's no, like rules
for a company to be like, don'tdo that.
People are gonna do that anyway.
So when layoffs come, whetherit's conscious or unconscious.
You may be put first becauseyou're like, so and so is here
all the time.
And then Jamie took, went toMexico and then got COVID.

(26:57):
you're putting a target on yourback.

Jamie (27:00):
Yeah.
Which is so fucked.
Like it's so fucked to likethink about it that way.
That's awful.
But

Rebecca (27:06):
But it's true.

Jamie (27:07):
that is the way it is.
That it do be like that.

Rebecca (27:12):
And we've said before, this starts when you're in
elementary school with the, theperfect attendance award.

Jamie (27:20):
attendance.
Yeah.

Rebecca (27:22):
so you're conditioned into it early,

Jamie (27:26):
keep thinking back to the whole thing from that article
where it talked about,celebrating people who took time
off and took vacation day, lotsof vacation days.
Like can you imagine I can'teven, I can't even, I can't
imagine that.
I can't even just thinking aboutbeing in a workplace where
they're giving like the townhall PowerPoint and there's like

(27:49):
a slide and it's like Jamie tookfour weeks of PTO so far this
year and it's only August.
good job, Jamie.

Rebecca (27:58):
right there.
It's just, God, I don't know.
I, I just, I've started makingmyself take half days, like in
the fall, in the spring, orevery third Friday, I take a
mental health day and I just, Iput on my calendar mental health
day and I'm off.
because I just, you get thislife and I don't wanna be like,

(28:21):
well, I'm, I'm so glad I was inthe office more than vacation.
I'm never gonna do that.
It doesn't matter.
There will always be a job, butyou, there's that vacation or
that trip isn't necessarilygonna be there.
That experience.

Jamie (28:36):
I'm trying to remember who it was, but we had one of
our guests, I think that wetalked about, um, how your kids
see it, right?

Rebecca (28:48):
Yep.

Jamie (28:49):
How they're like, was it Morgan?
Maybe it might have been Morgan,

Rebecca (28:52):
Probably

Jamie (28:53):
and like, yeah.
Her kids just like, oh, mommy'salways on her computer.
I think it was Taylor maybe.
Anyway,

Rebecca (29:02):
a bad example.
Like it's just a bad look.

Jamie (29:05):
yeah,'cause you don't want to, yeah, you don't want
like your kids to see that andthen add to, you know, whatever
societal workplace pressures.
It's like, oh, that's what mymom always did.
Like my mom was a hard worker,you know, and

Rebecca (29:20):
right.
And you're showing them how tohave fun and joy and there are
times for good, you know, and,and to prioritize that.
not to mention you're justcreating core fucking memories.
No big deal.

Jamie (29:34):
no big deal.

Rebecca (29:36):
It's no big deal.

Jamie (29:37):
All this child turns out is just all your responsibility.
So

Rebecca (29:41):
exactly.

Jamie (29:42):
no pressure.

Rebecca (29:45):
You can bet your ass the second it's available.
I ask for like the week, theweek, the Christmas, two weeks
off, like week of Christmas andthe week after, and I don't come
back until New Year's.
And that's just, that is mypolicy now because no one wants
to work.
No one wants to be there,

Jamie (30:02):
and no one's really there anyway, so it's what?

Rebecca (30:05):
no one's there.

Jamie (30:06):
maybe you can get some stuff done.
I do know people who've beenlike, I like working the week of
Christmas instead of having itoff because everyone's gone and
I don't have any interruptions.
That was more when I worked inan office though.
But yes, I do.
I I do feel that, but yeah, no,hands down I would be taking
that.
I think more and more places aredoing like the week off for

(30:28):
Christmas.
I think it's like rare that theydon't, but there's still a ton
of places that don't.

Rebecca (30:33):
I was just thinking Slack because I had a set, for
my, my timeout, like I was gonnabe outta the office and then
someone messaged me and it was,I was still there.
I just, and I responded andSlack was like, great to see
you, but aren't you supposed tobe too?
And

Jamie (30:45):
Oh, really?

Rebecca (30:46):
message.
Yeah.
And I was like,

Jamie (30:48):
Oh, good

Rebecca (30:49):
you're right.
Basically it's, I know.
I was like, alright, thank youSlack.
appreciate that.
So, I mean, I see, and I thinkGen Z begging being one of the
biggest contributors to theworkplace and one of the biggest
workforces now, I think they'revery healthy Outlook on
self-care and taking vacation ishelping to change the messaging

(31:12):
and to kind of turn that tide.
Because if you want them to workand if you want them to stay at
your company, you're gonnagoddamn well, let them go on
vacation.

Jamie (31:20):
Yeah, and that's what, that's what I was talking about
when I was like, you know,invest in benefits, invest in.
Sounds like cliche, but like inyour employees happiness.
because like burnout, like youremployees are gonna get burnt
out if you don't encourage themto take time off if you don't

(31:43):
give them a certain amount ofvacation so that they can take a
certain amount of time off.
Like,

Rebecca (31:51):
You think they do good work now they're not gonna do
good work when you're notletting them, recharge.

Jamie (31:57):
yeah, I think that's really important, like just kind
of helps you focus and just kindof take a break from it all.
Hey Marina, we had to marry.

Rebecca (32:08):
But I still think the conversation is though for a lot
of us, I know a lot of ourpeers.
What we're saying sounds fuckinggreat, but when push comes to
shove, are you followingthrough?
And I can honestly say no.
Like I'm saying what I know Ineed to say, but gun to my head,
I'm just not like, I'm going totake way less time off than I
really should because I justcan't get over that.

(32:29):
And so I think that's what a lotof people struggle with, to be
totally honest.

Jamie (32:35):
See, but now your employees are looking at you and
they're like, oh, Rebeccadoesn't really take much time
off,

Rebecca (32:41):
I know.
But, uh, Rebecca is also incharge of making sure the
revenue hits our OKR and makingsure the traffic hits our OKR.
And that's kind of fucked upbecause again, I, I can say
that, I can say and objectivelyknow, the world is not gonna end
and there are no emergencies,but I account on this company to
pay me so I can live.

(33:02):
And so when they're like, whathappened this week?
Like, well, I was at the beach.

Jamie (33:12):
Yeah,

Rebecca (33:12):
It's just, and I want, I, so, I so want to like not
feel this way.

Jamie (33:17):
yeah, I think I still feel that way and I especially
feel like a lot of times like,Ugh, was this even worth taking
these five days off when I hadto do like all of this prep
before and then all of thiscatch up when I get back?
Sometimes I feel like that, andthat's like sometimes the worst
part.

(33:38):
and I think that's back to whatManic was saying about like the
internalized shame, right?
And that's, I think, really whatit comes down to and what we're
holding onto is, and I mean theinternalized shame like isn't
necessarily all our fault.
Like I think it's a lot to dowith external factors and past.

Rebecca (34:00):
Women especially like take you, when was the last time
you took off for cramps?
Women who take sick days forcramps, like you're gonna,
you're gonna get looked at,you're gonna get behind your
male,

Jamie (34:11):
I went, I went to lie

Rebecca (34:12):
gonna get behind your male coworkers.

Jamie (34:13):
That's what I did.

Rebecca (34:15):
Right.
But you know what I mean?
Like if you're, if you'recalling and people notice,
that's the other thing that's sofucked up.
Coworkers notice when you'regone, if you're in like toxic
workplaces, they notice and theytrack when you're gone.
And so it's like, oh,

Jamie (34:27):
I don't think your coworkers actually track when
you're gone.
I think that's in your

Rebecca (34:33):
currently now, no.
But at these very competitivehigh output places, yes, 100%
they did.

Jamie (34:42):
That's horrible.
I don't think I've ever had thathappen.

Rebecca (34:48):
So if you're looking at how much sick time you take.
And they noticed that, well,Jamie's taking like a day or two
off at the beginning of everymonth.
That's kind of weird.
Brad isn't, and then you have tokind of justify like, I'm, I'm
actually really sick.
Like I have COVID.
Like, that's the other thingthat's so fucked up.
I feel like I have to justify,like this isn't just some
frivolous re that reason, I'mdefinitely ill, which again,

(35:12):
super fucked up and I shouldhave just taken the time off.
But like, I wait until the verylast minute when it's as bad as
it could be.
And that's the day I take off.

Jamie (35:22):
Yeah,

Rebecca (35:24):
I'm a bad example.
I am, I do not walk the walk andI will be the first to admit,
I'm a very bad example at all ofthis,

Jamie (35:33):
I think I am pretty good at it now, but it's also been a
while since I've been in thatsituation,

Rebecca (35:39):
I mean, I didn't take off when my grandpa died.
Like I took off.
day he died, which was likeFriday.

Jamie (35:46):
Okay.

Rebecca (35:46):
And then Chris

Jamie (35:47):
I was like, you told me you took off.
'cause I think I was like,Rebecca, your grandpa died

Rebecca (35:51):
I know I took one day and then it's like, I'm fine.
And then I showed up and I wasclearly not fine and I should
have taken a week.
But again, it's

Jamie (35:59):
like a year later.
You weren't fine.

Rebecca (36:01):
or when a pet dies, you feel like you can't justify,
like, I, I need time off becauseyou know, my cat died

Jamie (36:07):
yeah.

Rebecca (36:08):
when any, if anyone else said, that seems like
obviously take it off, butyou're like, well, they're gonna
think this is stupid and thenI'm being lazy and just trying
to get out of work.
And so you find yourself havingto justify why you deserve to be
fucking human and have a humanexperience.

Jamie (36:23):
Yeah.
Marina said, delegating andtrusting others to not be
incompetent is hard.
Yeah.
That's a big part of it.

Rebecca (36:32):
If you don't have the staff.
'cause again, startups arereally like really small and
there's usually only one personwho does a lot of different
things,

Jamie (36:42):
Yeah,

Rebecca (36:43):
is on them.
that's their fault for hiring.
Not enough people.
You're still responsible for it.

Jamie (36:49):
but you're still like the only one that's doing the thing.
Yeah.

Rebecca (36:58):
the, so taking sick time, it's so funny.
I, Emily was an emergencyC-section.
I texted my boss frantically asI was going to go have an
emergency c-section.
I'm having the baby today.
I'm, I'm really sorry.
But I'm actually having, I hadanother time where I had

(37:18):
emergency gallbladder surgeryand I remember taking a picture
of myself in my hospital bed tobe like, I'm not making this up.
I'm actually like, I'm here.

Jamie (37:26):
was a lot of that.
I feel like early in my careertoo, there was a lot of like
feeling like you had to proveand explain.
detail, any

Rebecca (37:36):
Doctor's notes.
Yes, doctor's

Jamie (37:38):
doctor's notes.
Forgot about that.
Yeah.
Fucked

Rebecca (37:42):
companies where they did that.
And I mean, not anymore thatit's been a handful of years
before this has happened, butagain, just enough to fuck you
up for the rest of your career.

Jamie (37:53):
Yeah.
One other thing, like I hatedabsolutely is like when I worked
in office, you have like, we hadthis one manager that would, I'm
sure I've talked about thisbefore, but like would always
come in sick because

Rebecca (38:10):
my God, yes.

Jamie (38:11):
wanna take time off.
I'm a hard worker, I'm just alittle sick.
I can work through it.
And it's like, but when it's inperson like that and it's at
you're sick, she would come inand get other people sick and we
would all be like.
Yeah.
If you're, if you, if you're notwell, don't fucking come to work

(38:33):
and infect everybody,

Rebecca (38:34):
Oh, and you're, she's going to the bathroom and the
kitchen and like she's spreadingit everywhere.

Jamie (38:40):
Yeah.
She's trying to choose from thefree startup snacks, you know,
and Ugh, that was

Rebecca (38:47):
I had a coworker who was pregnant who would throw up
in her trash cans at her desk.
It

Jamie (38:55):
Were you all like next to each other?

Rebecca (38:58):
was, yes.
It was like a big room.
And I was like, oh my God.
just get the fuck out of here.
But

Jamie (39:04):
That seems like unbelievable to me.

Rebecca (39:06):
It is, but again, at a startup, if you're the only
pregnant female there

Jamie (39:11):
Oh, true.

Rebecca (39:12):
in a, in a boys club, you better fucking show up for
work no matter what.
Otherwise, you're just being,Piece of shit.
Lazy pregnant lady making awhole ass body out of nothing.

Jamie (39:23):
Piece of shit.
Lazy pregnant lady.
Ugh.

Rebecca (39:28):
So she felt, she felt like she had to do that.
She felt like she had to show upand be there, even though she
was clearly dying.

Jamie (39:35):
Maybe she was also just doing it, like for her manager
being like, oh, you want me tojust keep working?
Like

Rebecca (39:44):
I read the website, ask a manager, and there are a
disturbing amount of letters ofpeople being like, so I have
chemo and I need to figure outlike, like how do people like,
so they don't think I'm justtaking time off just to take
time off.

Jamie (39:56):
we need to do

Rebecca (39:56):
So many I know,

Jamie (39:58):
That's awful.

Rebecca (39:59):
there's so many letters like that.
Like what do I do?
Or, but then there's the otherletters that are like, I've
noticed my coworker is taking somuch time off and they're
tracking and the first thing sheis is like, okay, stop fucking
tracking your coworker's.
Time off you fucking psycho.
It's none of your business.
There are plenty of reasons, sowe'd like to think that people

(40:20):
aren't tracking.
They very much are.

Jamie (40:23):
Yeah.
That's funny though because Ithink that's how, that's my,
like my healthier PTO mindsetstems from me seeing another
employee that was kind of likeon my level or maybe one above

(40:44):
me, and I was like, damn, thiswoman's taking, you know what?
I don't think it was a woman.
I think it was a man.
This guy's taking, like he wastaking.
it seemed like a week off everymonth almost.
It seemed like insane, likemaybe it wasn't a full week, but
like a handful of days everymonth.

(41:05):
And I mean, I don't know hisshit, but like, could have been
health or something like that.
But I was like, fuck.
I

Rebecca (41:11):
were annoyed by it.
I would've

Jamie (41:13):
no, I wasn't annoyed, that's the

Rebecca (41:15):
Oh, I would've been,

Jamie (41:16):
I was just kinda like, shit.
Like how do you get away withthat?
You know?
Like, I mean, we had unlimitedvacation, but I was still like,
how do you get away with that?
and then I was like, you knowwhat?
This fuck is taking off likethis handful of days or a week,
like every month or two, likeI'm gonna start taking a little
more time off.
And that's I think what pushedme to

Rebecca (41:36):
yeah.

Jamie (41:37):
take more time off for myself.

Rebecca (41:40):
Oh, I just had a thought.
If your first job was in retailor anywhere where you had a
shift, that's probably the otherthing where taking time off,
it's like, you always had tofind someone to cover, which is
a

Jamie (41:52):
Oh yeah.

Rebecca (41:54):
And then if you couldn't, well you still gotta
show up to work or get fired.
So I, I worked in retail first,like that was one of my first
jobs.
And I definitely remember beinglike, I can't take time off
'cause I can't find anyone tocome.
'cause it's your, again, theymake it your responsibility.
staff wherever you work.
Just crazy.
but so yeah, that whole mindsetstarts young of like, ugh, I

(42:16):
can't, I can't take time off.

Jamie (42:18):
Yeah.

Rebecca (42:19):
I didn't think about that.

Jamie (42:21):
Gotta get someone to cover.
Yeah.
I forgot about those days.
I feel so old now.
I'm like, oh yes.
The days of your,

Rebecca (42:30):
right.

Jamie (42:30):
I sometimes still have nightmares.
I'll once in a while have anightmare about like being a
server and like all my tablesare upset because the, the
kitchen's taking too long'causewe're busy and I wake up and
it's like the most stressful,it's always the most stressful
fucking nightmare dude.

Rebecca (42:48):
Yeah.
retail, same.
It's just like you, it's, youspend hours of your, again,
impressionable brain that isstill forming.

Jamie (42:57):
As our brains were still forming, huh?
Yeah.
That's

Rebecca (43:01):
So that leaves a mark.

Jamie (43:03):
Sometimes you'd get lucky though, and you'd have that
person that was like alwayswanting to pick up shifts and
then you get that person'snumber,

Rebecca (43:13):
Yeah.
Yeah,

Jamie (43:15):
or then you'd have to trade.
It's like you need a day off,but then you have to like trade,
but to like

Rebecca (43:20):
And one of you couldn't go home for than Thanksgiving.
That was like any holidays.
That's the other, you had towork during the holidays.
So again, then you move into thecorporate workplace.
That mindset of like, I can'ttake time off for the holidays
is right there.

Jamie (43:42):
It's so interesting'cause it's been, I feel like it's been
so long since I've reallythought about like the start of
like my career or even, yeah,like a first job like retail or
food industry.
But yeah, back to when you werelittle,

Rebecca (44:00):
But here's the thing though, it.
It doesn't matter.
You're going to get laid off,you're gonna get fired.
Whatever happens, something'sgonna happen with your job.
It's going to happen whetheryou're there or not, or whether
you're there or not on certain

Jamie (44:12):
next week.
More positive thoughts fromRebecca.

Rebecca (44:15):
no.
But I mean, again, this is justlike it's gonna happen either
way.
So you might as well take thetime off.
'cause again, this is just likethe one time you get, and I'm
gonna say it again, I'm a badexample of it, but it's not to
be fatalistic.
Something's bad is gonna happento you if it's supposed to
happen to you,

Jamie (44:34):
It was supposed to

Rebecca (44:35):
up or not for your job.
Do you know what I mean?
Like if you're supposed to getlaid off or if you're gonna get
fired anyway, it doesn't matterif you're there or not.
It can't be like, well, she didshow up every day, so let's
cancel that.
No,

Jamie (44:45):
especially like, I feel like now with all the layoffs
that have been going on, likethere's just, oh my God,
unemployment rate is nuts.
What

Rebecca (44:52):
Hold on a minute.
Hold on a minute.
That's not true.
Actually.
I was supposed to get laid offand then there's a trade show
that this girl was supposed togo to and she suddenly couldn't
go.
And so they delayed laying meoff

Jamie (45:06):
are you serious?
Wait, wait, wait.
So you knew you were gonna getlaid off?
And they were like, well, weneed you for this.
What

Rebecca (45:13):
boss handed me her, her phone.
We were in out of state and Iwas trying to find Google Maps
and I got a text message, or shegot a text message from her
boss, which was like about theplan to lay me off after.
And I'm a nosy bitch, so Iimmediately was like, so

Jamie (45:29):
the fuck?
I don't think you

Rebecca (45:31):
I know.
So we flew back and I wentimmediately to the office and
then I sent an, I quit email onthe way home, the car.

Jamie (45:41):
Oh, okay,

Rebecca (45:41):
fire me,

Jamie (45:43):
Okay, good.

Rebecca (45:44):
they were gonna wait, they were gonna lay me off, and
then they had to wait till thetrade show was over.

Jamie (45:49):
So you fucked them, right?

Rebecca (45:51):
I didn't, I mean, I was gonna be gone anyway, so no, I
didn't fuck'em.
I went, yeah, no, they'vetotally fucked me.
They just got an extra week ofwork outta me.

Jamie (46:01):
God damnit.

Rebecca (46:04):
Yeah.

Jamie (46:04):
Oh, so you found out after you had already done that
trade show that they were gonna,okay.
I thought you meant like theysaid, like, let's

Rebecca (46:12):
Oh yeah.
No, this, sorry, this was at,this is at the trade show.
Here's another fun one that Ijust thought of.
Working through a miscarriage.
A lot of women do it a lotbecause, I guess this is gonna
happen, so I should probably goto work.
'cause what I might, you can'ttell your boss or you, you don't
feel comfortable telling yourboss or you're afraid to tell
your boss.
'cause then they'll know.
So then they'll know you'retrying to get pregnant.

(46:34):
fuck.
I could do a whole show on thefear about getting pregnant as a
woman in the workplace and Ijust might.
'cause that's another form oftime off that you're gonna have
to take that.
'cause paternity leave wasn't athing until very recently that a
lot of men resented women for,so anyway, it's dangerous to
tell someone, Hey, I'm trying toget pregnant.
'cause they know that's gonnacome up.
So if they have to lay someoneoff, you're out of there.

(46:57):
and you just, you're, it's anembarrassing.
So you can't just be like, I'msaying you can't.
But I know a lot of us feel likeyou can't just take a day off
out of nowhere, even thoughsomething very traumatic and
very sad is happening right now.
and so you just show up to workhaving a miscarriage.
And then it was the day thateveryone's supposed to go to

(47:20):
laser tag because that was thequote, fun event they chose for
this fucking startup.
And so you have to go watchpeople play laser tag, having a
miscarriage.

Jamie (47:30):
fucking Christ.
Yeah.
We should do a whole episode onlike women in the workplace,
pregnancy, miscarriages,maternity leave, because still
there are still a ton of places,you know, like, you know,
especially if people work at, ifyou're still working retail
right now or something, it's

Rebecca (47:50):
God having to fight for a pumping room at a location
where it's mostly men that woo.
She could just do it in thebathroom.
That's, oh my God.
Oh my God.
yeah, it's, and again, that'swhere this comes from because if
you are gonna get laid off, theymake sure to do it before you
have the baby, so you're not onmaternity leave, because I'm
pretty sure that's illegal.

Jamie (48:09):
Well, and also like that happening.
Yeah, it is.
But also like something likethat happening and

Rebecca (48:16):
Listen, I said pretty sure.
Because you know what we'reliving in right now, and it's
very well possible.

Jamie (48:22):
But also the whole women having like gaps in their resume
and stuff like that because likethey took on the role of,

Rebecca (48:31):
Stayat home mom, which is, or a stayat home parent.
fuck men.
Stay at home mom.
'cause if you're a stay at homedad, you get kudos for that.
If you're a stay at home mom,you fucked your career.
I, again, I could rant aboutthat, but you're right.
That's another type of leavethat a lot of women won't take
or cut.
very short.

Jamie (48:46):
Yeah.

Rebecca (48:47):
I took two years.
I took two years, Jamie.
It fucked me so badly.
As far as wages go and where I'msupposed to be in my career.
I am, I'm not two years, Iwasn't two years behind.
When I went back to work, I wasmultiple years behind.
Like at least, like, I was juststarting out again.

(49:08):
I couldn't get anyone to hireme.
It was ridiculous.
And then when I did get hired,my pay was very similar to what
I got paid when I first startedworking, however, over 10 years
ago.
So it was crazy.
It was crazy how much that fucksyou up.

Jamie (49:24):
That kind of, that I was affected like that in the
teeniest way, like even justbeing laid off this time because
I was noticing like checkingjobs.
It's not the same.
I'm not trying to make it soundlike that.
Sorry.
I just,

Rebecca (49:38):
No.

Jamie (49:39):
but like looking at Judge Rumbar, I kept telling you, I
was like.
This is like a 60%, 40%, 50% paycut is what I'm seeing, that
people are paying for the samejob I was already doing.
Because you take the time tomove up at a company and then
you get laid off, or you have toleave to go take, even if you're

(50:01):
taking care of not a child, buta family member who's sick or
something,

Rebecca (50:06):
The big difference is though you are at a lateral
move.
If you're coming back from beinga stay at home mom, you are at a
similar role to when you firststarted working because they're
like, well, she was gone for twoyears, so clearly all this has
happened and she's.
An idiot who doesn't use theinternet.
And so she will not be aware ofall this business stuff, so we

(50:26):
must start her back, which is sofucked up.
And yet,

Jamie (50:31):
and yeah,

Rebecca (50:33):
yeah, yeah, but I mean, women being afraid and I was
like, it's been two years.
I have to get back to theworkplace.
'cause I was panicking after twoyears.
She was so little.
There's so little at two, but Iwas like, oh my God.
And I can't imagine would'vehappened if it had been three
years.

Jamie (50:47):
Or longer.

Rebecca (50:48):
do you know how embarrassing it is when LinkedIn
is like, do you wanna put aparenting gap on your resume?
Or like, I don't see men withthat.
I don't see any, any men withthat.
And maybe I'm just not gettingthe right people on LinkedIn,
but like I don't really see thatfor men.
But I see that a lot for womenand that means that potential
employers are seeing that too.
And again, I wish there wasn't abias, but you take that long of

(51:09):
a leave.

Jamie (51:11):
a bias.

Rebecca (51:12):
they will say something or think something.
I mean, assume something Iguess.

Jamie (51:19):
Rob.
Rob came in with, I fucking lovelaser tag.
Do a laser tag episode.
Fuck you, Rob.
Read the room.
Rob.
Let's go to laser deck,

Rebecca (51:38):
I don't know.
So like, it goes beyond vaca.
We're telling people to take PTOoff, but the fear of it doesn't
stem from, not it, it comes fromeverything else.
Like the fear of taking vacationis rolled into with the fear of
taking time out as a woman andtime out as someone who has a
woman's body who's doing awoman's thing, or someone who's,

Jamie (51:58):
consumerism and the patriarchy.

Rebecca (52:00):
oh, there we go.
So it's not just, it's not justlike she's being a martyr.
It's not like.
A character deficit.
It's years of internalized andunset things

Jamie (52:12):
Yeah.

Rebecca (52:15):
that makes you afraid.

Jamie (52:18):
How can we.

Rebecca (52:19):
My God, what Another stellar fucking upbeat, positive
episode.
I'm so glad if we could talkabout,

Jamie (52:25):
Hey, we never told people that we would be positive and
upbeat.
We've never said that.
Ever.

Rebecca (52:32):
I think that's why a lot of men are able to take time
off and just go.

Jamie (52:38):
Yeah.
They're using all the days thatUS women aren't using.

Rebecca (52:42):
but I, I've noticed a lot of men I worked with are
very good at taking time off.

Jamie (52:46):
leave?
Just gonna take her maternityleave.

Rebecca (52:50):
Yeah.
And here's the thing, Jamie,they're like, oh, family
vacation.
And all the women are like, ohmy God, that's so cute.
Where are you guys going?
And then he'll come back in andhe'll show pictures of him
holding his daughter at thebeach and they'll be like, oh my
God, what a good dad.
And he'll get kudos for it.
And it doesn't matter that hetook two weeks to go to the
fucking beach.
You come in, you go to the beachwith your family, they're like,

Jamie (53:11):
No, no, no, no, no, no.
You go to the hospital to get aC-section.
No beach.

Rebecca (53:17):
you They're gonna be like, Ugh.
Typical woman taking time offfor children.
it's again, I wish

Jamie (53:23):
She wants.

Rebecca (53:24):
Right months.
Yes.
That's what I mean.

Jamie (53:28):
And then remote work on top of it now too is like, she's
working remotely, so like shecan take care of her baby and
work, right?

Rebecca (53:35):
you have a period, you fucking lie down in bed and work
sideways, bitch That you and alot of people who work remotely
do not take sick time at allbecause they're like, well, I
can do this even though I'mdying.

Jamie (53:48):
Yeah.

Rebecca (53:49):
So I can't really justify.
'cause usually when it's like,can I come to work?
I'm going to infect everyone.
There's no one to infect.
And again, you can work lyingdown.
So people are like, well, Iguess I'm not really sick enough
to take a sick day

Jamie (54:02):
you're really in bad shape, I have to say.
You're really in bad shape.

Rebecca (54:08):
again,

Jamie (54:08):
things like

Rebecca (54:10):
that it's from, no, it's first.
It's a hundred percentfirsthand.
It's, and I am getting better.
But like this is for years mymindset of like I, I mean,
they're gonna think I'm lazywhen I am one of the hardest
people I know, or one of thehardest working people.
I know I'm not lazy, but I don'tknow, is this my mom's fault?
Is this all my mom's faultbecause she didn't love me

(54:32):
enough?
And so now like I don't wantpeople to think badly of me or
think I'm

Jamie (54:36):
I don't think this is your mom's

Rebecca (54:38):
You know what?
I'm gonna go ahead and justblame a parent anyway for this
one.
That's what it is, Jamie.
It's childhood trauma.

Jamie (54:44):
I think it's a little bit of everything, but I was gonna
ask, Hey, cosmic.
Cosmic says, yeah, his jobdoesn't offer PTO or sick time.
Like

Rebecca (54:53):
do you work for Trump?

Jamie (54:57):
a lot of jobs don't like.

Rebecca (55:01):
what do you mean?
A lot of jobs don't, and this ismaybe stupid, if you work 40
hours a week, aren't you legallyrequired to give them breaks?
You know what I'm saying thisout loud?
I'm like, no, not in America.
You're, they can probably dowhatever.
So I'm gonna Google that rightnow.
are you legally required

Jamie (55:17):
But I'm

Rebecca (55:18):
offer PTO?

Jamie (55:21):
what is the solution here.
Depends on the state,

Rebecca (55:24):
Oh my God.
Employers in the United Statesare not required to offer paid
time off at the federal level.
States and local jurisdictionshave laws mandating sick leave.
Not all of'em.
There's no federal law requiringemploy, okay.
Texas, Arizona.
Utah for sure.
Probably Georgia.
All the southern states, I'mgonna guess definitely don't

(55:45):
like have state laws thatmandate PTO.

Jamie (55:47):
Home healthcare, if I take time off, I don't make
money.
and that's how it is too.
'cause like, also likecontractors, freelancers, that's
a whole other mess.

Rebecca (55:58):
you work at home.
You work at home.
So you can contract lying downsideways.

Jamie (56:02):
I think a lot of us.
Had been doing that a whilewhere we were like, oh, it's
okay.
We don't need to take time offbecause we work from home
anyway, so I'm home all thetime.
It's fine.
It's kind of like a vacation.
it's not a vacation.
It's not.
Take your time off.
But what I was gonna ask islike, what do we do what?

(56:23):
Like how do we change, how do wechange this?
I know it's not as simple asthat.

Rebecca (56:30):
You change this by creating laws at a federal level
that regulate this kind ofthing, but because we live in a
capitalistic society, there's nofucking way that's ever going to
happen, ever.

Jamie (56:44):
But I mean like internally or like to help each
other,

Rebecca (56:48):
you can just get some crystals and think really
positive and then journal andlike say a mantra and that
should do it.
You can't.
You can't, because again, wework in capitalism.
This is always going to bethere.
I wish the conversations werechanging.
I think they are, sometimes are,but like the fact that people

(57:12):
are not legally required to giveyou time off, I think makes you
a prisoner.
With a job.
A prisoner with a job.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Prisoner with a job.
If you wanna live here, you'llwork.

(57:32):
'cause otherwise we're notfucking paying you.

Jamie (57:34):
Yeah, that's the American dream.
Work.
work and work and work and workuntil you're dead.

Rebecca (57:43):
Or move to Europe, marry a European, get the fuck
outta here.
Go enjoy three weeks at a timewhen you have, a breast
reduction or something.
Oh, that was another one.
I had a breast reduction.
You can't tell anyone thatyou're going in for like, I

(58:03):
mean, you can, but like,especially if you work at the
boys club, you're not gonna belike, Hey, guess what?
'cause then they're gonna belooking at your tits and then
when you come back, they'regonna to be like.
So that's a whole conversation Idon't wanna have.
So you're going out forunspecified quote unquote
surgery, and then you're givingthem the bare minimum of how
long you can be out withoutbeing able to stand up from the

(58:25):
pain meds.
And then you fucking go to work,but you're exhausted.
'cause your body still has twofucking gaping wounds in it and
is recovering.

Jamie (58:35):
sore and you can barely move,

Rebecca (58:37):
Uhhuh.
Yep.
Meanwhile, a man is gonna get avasectomy and he's out for three
days and because that justhappened,

Jamie (58:47):
Oh my God.
We should offer vasectomy.
Leave.

Rebecca (58:50):
but it's just,

Jamie (58:52):
Encourage more men

Rebecca (58:53):
I know.
Yeah.
I should have taken at least amonth off.
Because I had a, I had acomplication afterward now to
have emergency follow-upsurgery, which is another thing
I had to call my boss for and belike, I can't come to work.
I have to have emergencyfollow-up surgery.
So then he thinks you're like amess and dramatic

Jamie (59:14):
yeah.

Rebecca (59:15):
this comes on the heels of men telling you, Hey, that
guy isn't sexually harassingyou.
You're making too big of a dealout of it.
That's how men always

Jamie (59:22):
That's just how he is.
He's just

Rebecca (59:25):
so if you're making a big deal out of that, you're
clearly okay to come into work.
It's not really that bad.
That's the kind of purveyingthought is it's, is it really
that bad?

Jamie (59:35):
Yeah,

Rebecca (59:36):
Can you still walk?
Then you need to get it to work.
And again, maybe people whostart working for like old
school companies at thebeginning of their careers where
like they have the money to paypeople to take time off.
Maybe this is not, the mindsetmay maybe it's totally different
and if you have a lot of startupexperience, you're just fucked
up.

(59:56):
I would love to know that maybe.
A lot of people don't think thisway.
I have a feeling in my gut theydo, but it would be nice to know
that there are some people outthere who, like, from the get
go, were encouraged to take PTO.

Jamie (01:00:10):
I have felt encouraged at some places, but like you said,
it's whether or not you feellike it's genuine.
I would say I, at a coupleplaces, I, I felt encouraged and
I did think it's genuine, butthen maybe I kind of find, found
out that the other one.
Wasn't as genuine as maybe Ithought it was.

Rebecca (01:00:33):
This is the first place I've been where it's genuine and
I'm very grateful for that.
He is a good example and I,again, it's very late for me to
be rehabbing myself.

Jamie (01:00:43):
Yeah.

Rebecca (01:00:44):
but I'm grateful I'm at least able to do that and learn
how to do that in a

Jamie (01:00:48):
Rebecca, I'm gonna need you to do better.
I'm gonna need you to do betterand take

Rebecca (01:00:51):
I absolutely know any, yes.
I know I need to do better.
we're getting there, but this isthe first place I felt safe to
do that.
I actually just got a textmessage of wherever he's hiking
on, I hope he's having a goodtime.

Jamie (01:01:03):
Oh, he's on vacation now.
I see senior manager.

Rebecca (01:01:08):
yeah.
So that's, that's good.
That's a good example.
he takes him off for familystuff.
That's another good example.
He doesn't make me feel guiltyfor like, I have to do this with
them.
I'm gonna be late.

Jamie (01:01:18):
Even if like your kid has a sick day, like your kid's
sick,

Rebecca (01:01:20):
and I'm, oh, fuck that.
We didn't even talk about that.
Jamie.
Do you know how many women getlike, because they can't come in
'cause their kid is sick, but ifa dad does it, what a great dad
staying at home.
But like, if you have to leaveearly to pick up your kid,'cause
she's sick, you get looks andyou can like, and I'm not being
crazy.

(01:01:40):
It's like you tell your boss,you're like.
I mean, if you have to do it,you have to do it.
And they say it like that

Jamie (01:01:47):
Yeah.
That's shame.
That's shaming.

Rebecca (01:01:50):
and you're just like, okay, well she can't drive, so
gotta go.
But for men, it's like, oh, no,buddy.
Totally.
You know, great job babysittingyour kids or whatever they
fucking say to each other,

Jamie (01:02:03):
Yeah.

Rebecca (01:02:05):
you are not a good parent.
If you work and are a mom, youare an amazing parent if you're
a father and you work.
that's pretty much themessaging.
And again, this all flows into,because women are the caregivers
and we have to takeproportionately more time off
with maternity leave.
And if you're a stay at homemom.
So we, we feel guilty for takingextra time.

Jamie (01:02:30):
When it's like not extra time at all.

Rebecca (01:02:33):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Jamie (01:02:35):
I hate when people say I'm babysitting my

Rebecca (01:02:37):
I do too, but the places where I worked, they 100%
were like, oh, I gotta babysitthe kids tonight.
It was those, that's who Iworked with a lot of babysitting
the kids this weekend.
Yeah.
Yep.

Jamie (01:02:50):
Wife has to have

Rebecca (01:02:51):
to rant.

Jamie (01:02:51):
Wife has to have surgery.
So I've got the kids thisweekend.

Rebecca (01:02:57):
Yeah.
I'm sorry.
And I'm sorry I, I know I wentoff, but just realizing how
skewed it is.

Jamie (01:03:05):
I just think, yeah, I think it's a major systemic
issue and you're right, it's notgonna change until we make
changes at a federal level.
And I mean, I think even if wedo that, I think it's still

(01:03:27):
gonna be hard for people to kindof get over, the intern, the
internalized shame from beingshamed in all these other ways

Rebecca (01:03:43):
Yep.

Jamie (01:03:44):
we like.
We out here just trying to takecare of ourselves like

Rebecca (01:03:55):
All right.

Jamie (01:03:55):
we did it.

Rebecca (01:03:56):
guys so much for joining us.
Glad we could have anotheruplifting, positive
conversation.

Jamie (01:04:07):
We would love to hear more from you guys too, if
anyone has like a different, adifferent viewpoint or

Rebecca (01:04:14):
No one has a different viewpoint.

Jamie (01:04:16):
if like, there's gotta be some people that have a healthy
relationship with taking timeoff though,

Rebecca (01:04:20):
Not any of our friends, all of our, I'm gonna say all of
our friends who

Jamie (01:04:23):
No one we know, but somebody.

Rebecca (01:04:25):
one we know.
That's why they're like notchiming in.

Jamie (01:04:29):
Can you tell

Rebecca (01:04:29):
All right.
Let's hear it.

Jamie (01:04:31):
Oh, there's a, but I never have to watch my kids.
I need to spend time with them.

Rebecca (01:04:37):
Yeah, we know.
We know that's'cause you're agood parent.

Jamie (01:04:41):
Only because I don't listen to other people.
Ha ha ha ha ha.
Okay.
I'm on nine week leave now.
It was involuntary.
Renee got laid off.

Rebecca (01:04:52):
But

Jamie (01:04:55):
Yeah,

Rebecca (01:04:56):
think of this as like your next adventure Marina.

Jamie (01:05:02):
that'll never die.

Rebecca (01:05:04):
yeah.

Jamie (01:05:05):
all right, I thought Q was gonna come in and drop some
like amazing, like yeah, Iactually, this is how it works
for me.
And, but no, she's just like, Idon't fucking care what anybody
says and I don't listen to them,so

Rebecca (01:05:19):
thanks.

Jamie (01:05:19):
take time off.
I think that's kind of where Iam now.
Like that's with the, like thepast handful of years I have
been there almost pretty much.

Rebecca (01:05:30):
yeah, I know now, like I've started to recognize when
it's time for me to take timeoff and when it's been too long
is when I sit there at my deskand I just feel like the one
lifetime television woman forwomen, movie tear just go down
my cheek.

Jamie (01:05:45):
I thought you were gonna say like, when your eye starts
twitching.
I was like, that would

Rebecca (01:05:48):
No, just like the involuntary weep that I didn't
know I was doing, and then I waslike, oh

Jamie (01:05:53):
it's not involuntary, it's your body.
Just trying to tell you to taketime off.
All right.
I'm gonna be a big, I'm gonna bea bigger bitch to you about it.

Rebecca (01:06:05):
No, I mean, I'm, I'm good.
I'm getting better.
I

Jamie (01:06:10):
Don't take this away from

Rebecca (01:06:11):
whole weeks off in August.
I'm taking two weeks off inAugust,

Jamie (01:06:15):
Good.
We get so much.

Rebecca (01:06:17):
time to like ramp back up.
Oh, sorry.

Jamie (01:06:18):
We get so much time off at my job, so I'd be damned if
the toxic place I work at isgoing to shame me for you.
Exactly.
I feel like I, I

Rebecca (01:06:26):
spike, PTO.

Jamie (01:06:28):
yeah.
I see Rebecca can get behindthat look at her face like,

Rebecca (01:06:33):
Yeah.

Jamie (01:06:34):
that's it.
This is where Rebecca lights up.

Rebecca (01:06:38):
Oh, I'm gonna use my time off at you.
You know who you can't yell atif, uh, I'm not here, me.
Bye.
Yeah.
Spike PTO.

Jamie (01:06:50):
I've made my schedule four day weeks instead of five.
Yes.
That's amazing.
Good.
That's awesome.
Be more like you.

Rebecca (01:07:00):
we just had to frame this, we just had to frame this
correctly for me, despite PTOIcan absolutely do.

Jamie (01:07:05):
Well, I think that's it.
I was gonna say, I think that'sthe mindset we all need to have
is like you can, like you said,you can get dropped, laid off,
fired, let go, whatever youwanna call it.
At any point, these people don'tcare about you.
They care about the bottom line,they care about the money.
You are just like a number.

(01:07:26):
You are just like a number of anemployee.
You need to remember that.

Rebecca (01:07:30):
But like a really valued number.
You're a really valued number ofthis team.

Jamie (01:07:38):
But I just think if more people think like that, maybe
that will encourage us.
What do we call it?
Like spite to spite?

Rebecca (01:07:48):
I love spite to,

Jamie (01:07:49):
I don't know.

Rebecca (01:07:52):
I don't know.
It's still there.
BTO spite

Jamie (01:07:54):
Spite.
No.
We'll figure it out.

Rebecca (01:07:58):
Spider.

Jamie (01:08:00):
I had to schedule my wedding for a day.
I was going to be off so Iwouldn't lose money.
See, and that's another thing.
Yeah.
It's not just like guilt, it'sliterally about surviving and
being able to live.
And keep a roof over your head alot of times.

Rebecca (01:08:17):
Yeah.
Oh

Jamie (01:08:20):
Yeah.
Put it on a shirt then let meknow when it's in your shop.
Yeah.
We'll have to think aboutsomething a little wittier than
spite dio.

Rebecca (01:08:30):
Yeah.
No, it's just a capitalisthellscape that's never gonna get
better

Jamie (01:08:34):
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca (01:08:36):
and we're all gonna die.
Crushed slowly to death by thecogs of the machine.

Jamie (01:08:40):
Yeah.
Don't just don't let that beyour life.

Rebecca (01:08:46):
Yeah.

Jamie (01:08:48):
Stick it to the man you guys.
Stick it to the man.

Rebecca (01:08:53):
I will say one thing though, all y'all who are going
on vacation, you need to stopgoing to volcanoes.
I have read multiple stories inthe past couple weeks now.
People fucking falling intovolcanoes.
Volcanoes on vacation, what thefuck whatcha doing on a volcano
and then dying on vacation.
That's enough of that.

Jamie (01:09:12):
How dare you die on a vacation that is not a

Rebecca (01:09:15):
Don't go on volcanoes and don't take a cruise ship.
Stay on land where bad things inthe ocean don't happen.

Jamie (01:09:21):
Oh God.

Rebecca (01:09:22):
Yeah.
Oh, that Netflix, that fucked meup,

Jamie (01:09:26):
Oh my God.
The poop cruise.

Rebecca (01:09:28):
except the one girl who was like, I, we had to pee in
the shower and it was okay, calmdown, Karen peeing in the shower
as if it was like a third worldcountry.
just

Jamie (01:09:38):
Marina's like just never leave home.
You just don't leave home.
Maybe I always have to take theperspective of if I would
encourage my coworker, family orfriend to take time off, then I
gotta do it for myself.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
Like, and even Yeah.
Just people you work with.
Yeah.

Rebecca (01:09:53):
Yeah.
Take

Jamie (01:09:54):
if you manage people like they're looking at you, so you
should lead by example and alsoencourage them looking at you,
Rebecca.

Rebecca (01:10:06):
I do encourage them.
I am very good at encouraging.

Jamie (01:10:10):
Right, but then you are also giving a different message
by not taking time off as much.

Rebecca (01:10:15):
I know,

Jamie (01:10:16):
We'll work on it.

Rebecca (01:10:17):
I know.
We'll

Jamie (01:10:19):
Just remember, spite, spite,

Rebecca (01:10:23):
but I like, I, but see, and that's the thing, like I do
like my boss and he is veryencouraging and fine.
It's fine.

Jamie (01:10:33):
Well, think about something else you're spiteful
about and then take time off.
I'm taking a spite day.
That's what it should be.
Taking a

Rebecca (01:10:42):
I will say one more thing, and this isn't like
Kool-Aid drinking.
This is the only place I've everworked at where I have seen
multiple men out on paternityleave.
Like not, you know how usuallyit's just like that one guy,
like more than five guys herethat I've heard of have

Jamie (01:11:00):
I would've assumed.

Rebecca (01:11:02):
paternity leave.

Jamie (01:11:03):
I would've assumed that as soon as people started off,
companies started offering likepaternity leave or parental
leave that

Rebecca (01:11:14):
lot of places didn't

Jamie (01:11:16):
oh, I know.
A lot of places done it.
Yeah, but I'm saying like Iwould expect men to like flock
to that and be like, okay, I'mgonna do that.

Rebecca (01:11:24):
Three week vacation, bro.

Jamie (01:11:27):
They're not breastfeeding.
They don't have to stay up inthe middle.
Get up like five times in themiddle of the night like you
seem unwell.
Better take a sick day tomorrow.
For spite.
For spite Rebecca.
Do it for spite.
I don't know guys.
I think she lost it.
She's not the spiteful.
Rebecca we once knew

Rebecca (01:11:48):
Oh my God.
I'm gonna get spied into beingspiteful.

Jamie (01:11:52):
spite it into me.
That's what I'm trying to do.
Is it working?

Rebecca (01:11:58):
Yeah,

Jamie (01:11:59):
They have, I'm not even gonna read what Rob said.
We don't even,

Rebecca (01:12:03):
yeah.
Take.
Take the maternity leave.
Take the sick leave.
Take the leave.
Take the surgery.
Leave recover.

Jamie (01:12:13):
Hey, take time to recover.
And also, yeah, take time tolike actually go on vacation.
Take time to have a staycation.
And also,

Rebecca (01:12:20):
do as we say, not as we do.
Do as we say.
Not as we do.

Jamie (01:12:24):
and also I just wanna remind everyone, fuck, now I
lost my train of thought.

Rebecca (01:12:28):
Sorry.

Jamie (01:12:29):
No, no, no.
It's okay.
We were talking, I was taking,taking days off for vacation.
Oh.
I wanna remind you, you don'towe it to anyone to tell them
what you're doing, where you'regoing about your super private
medical surgery that you have toget done.

(01:12:51):
Like you just say, Hey, I got.
Nothing to do.
I need time off or like, Hey,I'm going on vacation.
Like

Rebecca (01:12:58):
Because we're all adults

Jamie (01:12:59):
I volunteer information about it, I just feel like it's
none of your business.

Rebecca (01:13:06):
Yeah.
The only coworker I volunteeredthe reduction surgery about was
Megan, who wanted to see the newones, which as I'm saying that
right now, is probably an HRviolation.
But she asked

Jamie (01:13:18):
Can you imagine?

Rebecca (01:13:20):
no.
'cause she made me go into thebathroom and show her.

Jamie (01:13:24):
John asked to see my tits, so I showed him

Rebecca (01:13:30):
Oh,

Jamie (01:13:30):
this is a perfect end.
It's none of your business.
Yes.
Louder It is.
None of anyone's business.
I mean, I don't mind if I'mgoing on vacation to say, oh,
I'm doing this, I'm doing this.
But like also like sometimes Iwanna take a staycation.

Rebecca (01:13:45):
And you want it to be like private sometimes.
Sometimes it was like, I don'tknow.
What if it was your honeymoon?
I don't wanna know how yourhoneymoon was.
I hope it was good, but I'm sureyou don't wanna tell me how your
honeymoon was,

Jamie (01:13:55):
Yeah.
And also if we could discouragethe people who like want to
volunteer that information abouttheir private lives at work,
that would be great,

Rebecca (01:14:07):
but you can tell me though.
I do wanna know.

Jamie (01:14:11):
especially if something happened that Rebecca can be
spiteful about with you.

Rebecca (01:14:15):
Yeah, tell me.
Tell me your medical conditionsand

Jamie (01:14:18):
Tell me your medical conditions.
Rebecca, this is not at all whatI was just talking about.

Rebecca (01:14:25):
I just wanna know.
I just wanna know, just, Heygirl,

Jamie (01:14:28):
mean, if it, if it's, what's your diagnosis?
Girl?
Rebecca just wants to know thehot goss.
It's

Rebecca (01:14:36):
Yes.
Literally.

Jamie (01:14:37):
an appendectomy.
Ooh, tell me more.

Rebecca (01:14:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Please do.

Jamie (01:14:48):
Oh yeah, we do have to get lunch.

Rebecca (01:14:51):
Well, we are reaching out to a couple people to see if
they'll be on as guests, but wecurrently don't have anyone
scheduled for anytime soon, buthopefully we will.

Jamie (01:14:59):
Yeah.
And I do, I wanna stress again,like we would love any of you
Yes.
You, to come on as a guest.
If, um, you have something totalk about, you have something
you're passionate about.
what?

Rebecca (01:15:11):
sorry, Marina's.

Jamie (01:15:13):
Hello?
No.

Rebecca (01:15:14):
like weird.
I didn't get into this.
Marina, you should come on andtalk to us about admin leave.

Jamie (01:15:18):
marina and Rob were giving me shit the other day
because like, oh, I've neverbeen invited.
And I was like, Rob said that hewanted to come on and talk about
being burnt out from women.
And I was like, okay.
No.

Rebecca (01:15:31):
I mean that it, we equal opportunity

Jamie (01:15:34):
No, no, no.
He wasn't serious.
He was just being robbed.
And then reina's, like, younever invited me.
And I just, it's always been anopen invitation to anybody.
I just assume if you don't bringit up with me, you're not, or
with us, like, you're not superinterested in it.
I think most of my friends areintroverts and they're like, no,

(01:15:55):
I do not want to go on yourpodcast.

Rebecca (01:15:58):
on video.
Go fuck

Jamie (01:15:59):
Yeah.
I don't know how we're here.
So we would never, we wouldnever wish this podcast upon
anyone.
Sounds terrible.
No.
but yeah.
Yeah.

Rebecca (01:16:08):
should bring one of our parents on one of these weeks.
Just be like,

Jamie (01:16:11):
I would love to,

Rebecca (01:16:12):
explain, explain.

Jamie (01:16:14):
would also love to like pick my mom's brain as, uh.
Because she was a stay at homemom for so long, and I'd like to
like just pick her brain aboutlike her experience more and
yeah.

Rebecca (01:16:32):
My mom is a stay at home mom, but she did do, she's
a sign language interpreter,which is actually pretty smart
because it's not like you'regonna forget that language.
Do you know what I mean?
Like.
You're gonna know how tointerpret.
So that's actually a really goodidea if you do have to take
parental time off.
But anyway, she, so she wouldhave, and some days she'd bring
me to work, like she couldn'tget to sit her or someone
couldn't watch me.
And those, those were myfavorite days.

(01:16:54):
Like, I loved going to work withmy mom'cause she worked on
college campuses.
So I would bring like all mycrays and pencils with me and my
paper, and I would sit in theback of the class taking college
class with her and she'd beinterpreting and, uh, yeah, she,
yeah, I, but the fact that youhave to bring your kid to work

(01:17:15):
or you don't get paid as I saidthat out loud, I have a great
memory.
She must have been so freakedout or so upset that she
couldn't find anyone and shewouldn't get paid if she didn't
work.

Jamie (01:17:29):
Yeah.
Yep.

Rebecca (01:17:32):
So my great memory is like one of.

Jamie (01:17:35):
Your mom's like worst experiences.
Your best childhood memory withyour mom is one that like where
she was burnt out as fuck.
I hope you're happy.

Rebecca (01:17:54):
shit.

Jamie (01:17:58):
Wait, hang

Rebecca (01:17:59):
Um,

Jamie (01:18:01):
Oh, I'm at work When you do the podcast, dammit.
I wanna say take a day off, butI know what that means for you,
so I'm not going to, I don'tknow if y'all have talked about
navigating childhood traumawhile understanding your parents
are human, but that would beinteresting.
I'm sorry.
q do you wanna come on and talkabout navigating, uh, childhood
trauma while understanding yourparents are human?
Would you like to about that?

(01:18:25):
She would.
That was a yes.

Rebecca (01:18:27):
it.
I would love to hear,

Jamie (01:18:30):
all right guys.

Rebecca (01:18:32):
thank you again for joining us.
Love having you here.
Love these conversations.
Love unpacking secret trauma

Jamie (01:18:41):
love getting more depressed and stressed with you
guys.
It's our fate.

Rebecca (01:18:45):
love it.

Jamie (01:18:45):
Uh oh.
The dogs are getting into

Rebecca (01:18:49):
I just opened the door and I was trying to be
professional and ignore them andhold them off, but sorry.

Jamie (01:18:55):
They're like, look at me.
No, don't be sorry.
The dogs are fine.
All right.
Thank you everybody for beinghere.
yeah.
You don't owe people shit.

Rebecca (01:19:04):
week.

Jamie (01:19:05):
Take time off.

Rebecca (01:19:06):
time off.
We're all gonna be dead anyway.

Jamie (01:19:09):
Bye.

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