The goth girl at Christian school with fishnets on her arms

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jamie (00:00):
Well, he didn't say who it was.

Rebecca (00:02):
they knew

Jamie (00:02):
not the golf girl at Christian school with fishnets
on her arms.

Rebecca (00:06):
the blue haired girl.
No, not her.
I am Jamie.
And I'm Rebecca.
Welcome to the BurnoutCollective.
Welcome.

Jamie (00:21):
Welcome.
Hi, nice to meet you.
Do you have religious trauma?
That's how it, that's how itstarts.
Anyway, do we have housekeeping

Rebecca (00:28):
follow us.
Please listen, rate and reviewon your podcast app.
and join our discord, our dis,god damn it.
Every time

Jamie (00:35):
card.

Rebecca (00:35):
our discard

Jamie (00:37):
do you wanna talk about what we just partook in part

Rebecca (00:42):
Yes.
So before we talk about ourreligious trauma, which by the
way, I was telling Jamie about87% of the people in my life,
after they hear this podcast,everything will suddenly click
for them.
People who have known me foryears, they'll go, oh, that

Jamie (00:57):
this episode in particular, you

Rebecca (00:58):
Yes, this episode in particular.
So that being said, while wewere talking about the good
things of which there are almostnone, veggie tails did come up
and out of all Christianpropaganda, I will not stand for
veggie tail slander.
I love veggie tails.
it can do no wrong.
It is a joy and a delight.
And as a warmup to this, wedecided to watch some silly

(01:21):
songs with Larry and if youdon't know what that is, please
google it.
It's wonderful.
Anyway.
Religious trauma.
Let's fucking jump into this.
I have been sweating about

Jamie (01:34):
ready?
Yeah.

Rebecca (01:36):
I'm sweaty.

Jamie (01:37):
Rebecca's.
Ready.
Ready.
Also, I didn't realize until wedecided we were gonna do this
episode.
Let, hang on.
Let's back up.
Let's talk about how we decidedto do this episode.

Rebecca (01:48):
Go for it.

Jamie (01:48):
decided, because I don't even know who it was, it was
somebody that Rebecca recentlymet and I think went out to
dinner with, and you wereimmediately like, so what's your
religious trauma?
And she was telling me about itand we realized Rebecca and I do
that a lot and we were trying tofigure out, to people that we

(02:11):
just met.
Even I think it's because we'vemaybe like the person.
And so we're like, okay, I kindof vibe with you.
I kinda like you.
You've gotta have some religioustrauma.
and I don't think that's failedme yet.
I think every single person I'vebeen like, so did you

Rebecca (02:28):
from a mile away.
Just

Jamie (02:31):
Yeah.

Rebecca (02:32):
a mile away.

Jamie (02:34):
It's like too.
Me too.

Rebecca (02:38):
Yeah.

Jamie (02:39):
but I realized that her like, Rebecca's religious
trauma, honestly, is so muchworse than mine.
and one of the things about methat some of, you know, I'm
sure, but not all of you, is myfather's a pastor, so I also
grew up a pastor's kid, whichhad its own set of gestures.

(03:02):
Vaguely.
but damn.
But damn, has Rebecca won, wonthis award.

Rebecca (03:11):
Like I said, 87% of people who've ever met me are
just gonna Oh, yep.
It ha

Jamie (03:17):
did you invite all your closest friends and family to
the show today?

Rebecca (03:20):
Now that my parents know about this podcast, I'm
delighted.
yeah, it has.
I will say that all of this hasculminated in me having a
constant pot of rage justsimmering in the background in
all aspects of my life.
Just on the back burner waitingto go, just a deeply angry,
constantly.

(03:40):
It has also been a lot oftherapy.
A lot of therapy, a lot ofworking through a lot of
deconstructing and working witha therapist who specializes in
religious trauma anddeconstructing from religious
trauma.

Jamie (03:55):
I actually didn't know you worked with a therapist who
specialized in that.
That's great.

Rebecca (03:58):
I didn't know she thera she the, she specialized in
that.
I didn't know

Jamie (04:02):
she theorized

Rebecca (04:03):
I thought she was just a therapist, but she al and she
grew up very similar.
So that's helpful because a lotof times I talk about this and
I,

Jamie (04:15):
Religious trauma?

Rebecca (04:16):
it's gonna be very similar.
A lot of, when I talk about thisto people, I feel crazy and I
feel like I am lying or makingit up or exaggerating, because
it sounds fucking nuts and I'mafraid people aren't gonna
believe me or they're gonnathink I'm just like, you know?

Jamie (04:34):
because that's probably what it was like growing up.

Rebecca (04:37):
Oh, yeah.

Jamie (04:37):
you spoke about these things, nobody would believe you

Rebecca (04:40):
Yeah.

Jamie (04:40):
you were exaggerating,

Rebecca (04:42):
And there's a lot of lessons that you're taught in
the church that have rippleeffects through the years into
adulthood, that you don'trealize are still doing harm
until it's pointed out to you.
just as an example, when I, whenI was, when I'm working with my
therapist, I was just goingover, it's like, you know, I,

(05:03):
there's all this, but I stillhave this and this.
And so I'd be like, I'm havingthis trouble here, but things
are still good.
And she's you don't have to dothat.
You can just say things are bad.
You don't have to constantlybeing, showing gratitude all the
time.
It's okay.
Things can just be bad and it'sjust an automatic reflex.
Just be like, but also so youknow, you don't get sent to
hell.

(05:24):
anxiety started at the church.
Anxiety and OCD started in thechurch and again, has ripple
effects, through to today.
being told that God only givesyou as much as you can handle
has had ripple effects, becausewhen things get really hard, I
don't ask for help and I don'tlet people know I'm struggling
because if I do, then clearly Ihaven't been able to do it

(05:48):
myself.
and or I shouldn't beoverwhelmed because the rule is
you can have as much as you canhandle when really, no, you can
be completely overwhelmed andthings can be super fucking bad.

Jamie (05:59):
It was meant to be, it was meant to happen like this.
Just wait for the good to comeout of the situation.
And it's like sometimes there isno good that comes out of the
situation.

Rebecca (06:11):
yes.

Jamie (06:11):
don't tell somebody who was, who was abused that like,
well, you know, that made youwho you are today and made you
stronger.
if they believe that, that'sfine.
Like I can respect that.
But it's not your place.
I.
As a person, as a friend, as areligion, as a church, as a
pastor, to tell somebody thatthe shitty thing that happened

(06:34):
to them

Rebecca (06:36):
Part of God's plan.
Yep.

Jamie (06:37):
was part of God's plan.
Exactly.

Rebecca (06:40):
And that's the kind of, that's where the rage pot comes
in, because it's like all thosechildren in Gaza, that's part of
God's plan.
Go fuck yourself.
No, it's not.
there, oh, prosperity gospel isanother big thing where it's
like you're struggling or youdon't do quite as well, and
again, has had ripples.
'cause it's well, I'm not, I amnot working hard enough or I'm

(07:00):
not doing enough.
And

Jamie (07:02):
You're not giving enough money to the church.

Rebecca (07:05):
no, sometimes life just fucking sucks.
Sometimes things are hard,sometimes you don't get what you
want, or sometimes you're justreally struggling and it's not
because of you, you didn't doanything bad or good.
It just sucks.
And you're not pissing off SkyDaddy.
You're just in the middle of aunfortunate, difficult
situation.

Jamie (07:25):
Yeah.

Rebecca (07:26):
And the people who have the most are like, these are
blessings.
No, they're not.
It's capitalism and greed andprobably crime

Jamie (07:36):
hate and a lot of hate, honestly.
Yeah.

Rebecca (07:39):
A hundred percent.
A hundred percent.
so yeah.
So, oh, the other thing when,just an example, someone in a
meeting the other day was like,oh, this great spreadsheet that,
who created that?
I created it.
I didn't speak up and be like, Idid it.
Because that would be vain andprideful.

(08:00):
And you must be humble.

Jamie (08:03):
you know what the funny thing is too?
It's not funny at all, but, thefunny thing is that all of these
things like us.
Not wanting to speak up, notwanting to be too prideful, not
like wanting to stay humble.
A lot of that I alwaysattributed to, it's because

(08:25):
that's how women were taught.

Rebecca (08:28):
That's also part of it.

Jamie (08:29):
that is true, but I think that stems greatly from the
church, from religion.
And I know not all religions andsects are this way, but like the
church I grew up in, were notallowed to be pastors, were not
allowed to be leaders.

Rebecca (08:49):
Same.

Jamie (08:50):
and

Rebecca (08:52):
No.
Your lead, your leader's in yourhome.
That's the only place you'reallowed to be a leader is in
your

Jamie (08:56):
Yeah, a leader of like your children and

Rebecca (08:58):
The children.
Yep.

Jamie (09:00):
and cooking, and I was just telling Rebecca that I
think I just attributed it tothat and didn't realize at the
time that was like affecting meand causing me to have like
certain views.
But later on in life when I'vehad struggles as an adult with
speaking up or, being a leader,like I do think, I think I'm a

(09:23):
great fucking leader, but thattook a lot, for me to get there.
And yeah.
And just like anytime I workedat a place where I was beaten
down for speak, for speaking up,or, somebody was like, oh.

Rebecca (09:37):
Mm-hmm.

Jamie (09:38):
new, like, how dare she speak out?
Or she's like under me, likeshe's not a manager.
Like how dare she speak up?
She's not part of the executiveteam.
How dare she speak up?
I just think that has affectaffected me later on in life.
And back then I didn't eventhink about it.
Like I, it wasn't like theyweren't telling us that all the
time, but it was still allaround me.

Rebecca (09:58):
Yes.
In that same vein,

Jamie (10:00):
a woman's place.
Yeah,

Rebecca (10:03):
in that same vein with women, body image is dog shit
because you were taught if yourhusband cheats on you or is
unfaithful, it's because you'reugly or too overweight, or
you're not taking care ofyourself or you don't look
right.
And he clearly had a wanderingeye.
But also at the same time, ifyou are raped, it's because of

(10:28):
something you wore or somethingyou did and you encouraged it.
So it's this horrible dichotomyof you must keep it hot, but not
too hot, but all and the clothesyou have to wear, it's just
crazy.
And so you're constantly likeworried about how you look
because the guy's got no, A guycheats on you'cause he's a piece
of shit, not because of how youlook.

Jamie (10:51):
That's him.
That's yeah.

Rebecca (10:53):
So, and that's led to some fucked up relationships.

Jamie (10:58):
Yeah.
That's very true.

Rebecca (11:01):
I mean sex, like I don't wanna have sex right now,
but I'm not talking about thiswith Rob, this is like previous
relationships.
Like I don't wanna have sex.
But we are taught that it isyour partner or your husband's
Right.
I mean, not partner, they don'tsay that it's your husband's.
Right.
But you know what I mean.
It's your husband's right tohave sex with you when he wants
to.
And it is your job as the wifeto let him, which is called

(11:27):
marital rape.
And so having sex when you don'treally want to because, well, I
have to, right?
that's my quote unquote duty.
Again, this is not referred toRob.
He will, he never, ever, ever,ever.
but it took a while.
It took a while for me to belike, I don't want to.

Jamie (11:47):
And then it also takes a while to, men too, but
especially women like who grewup in the church with religion.
I think it takes a while to likeunderstand sexuality and
understand sex and like, I feellike that, I think that's one of
the biggest reasons we have allof these, you know, they call'em

(12:10):
like late bloomer queers, youknow what I mean?
Like

Rebecca (12:13):
Well, it's the purity Purity culture.

Jamie (12:15):
Yeah, it was just like, you don't have sex.
I, to be candid, this isprobably more than anybody needs
to hear.
But,

Rebecca (12:23):
I

Jamie (12:24):
I, when I was very young, I learned what masturbation was
and not from my parents.
Oh, I guess it was from myparents, but it, or from my
mother.
But it was after a cousin hadsaid something.
I was like, oh, what is that?
And then my mother laterexplained it to me and I was

(12:45):
like, oh my God, I do that.
And so I was so traumatized andI was so much like, oh my God,
I'm doing this thing and it's soawful and I shouldn't be doing
it.
That I was like, bawling.
And I went to my mom and I waslike, I think I masturbate.
And we can laugh about it, butlike, I was so upset Back then I
still believed or thought Ibelieved, you know?

(13:06):
And so I was like, oh my God,like this is one of the worst
sins.
And it was horrible and liketraumatic for me.
It just, it doesn't, it, itdoesn't give kids, and yes, as
kids, we need to have, we needto be comfortable, in our bodies
and we need to know these thingsand know them early and

Rebecca (13:27):
and know that, know that our bodies could feel good.
That's really important becausethey don't teach you.
I never learned what orgasm was.
I didn't know that sex was tomake your body feel good.
I never learned any of that.

Jamie (13:39):
If it weren't for this thing that came up.
Yeah.
If it weren't for this thingthat came up with my cousin, I
don't think if, I don't think mymom would've ever told me and
like I could be wrong, but Idon't think my mother would've
ever told me like, oh, and thisis masturbation and like this
is, this is okay, or this is notokay.
You know?
It was just like,

Rebecca (13:58):
Your own pleasure.
your, that your body is for yourown, like your own pleasure.
Again, ripple effects, bodyissues today.
Uncomfortable with.
I, I mean, again, stuff that'sbeing worked on back then and is
worked on now in therapy, butit's just like being comfortable
with your own sexuality, whichis a totally natural thing.
But for so many years you'vebeen told, Nope.

(14:20):
Dirty and bad.
So we had abstinence only, Ibelieve sex education.
The kind where it's like youwill get pregnant aids and die.
I'm shocked we didn't have more,uh, more teen pregnancies.
But I waited until I was almost18 to lose my virginity.
And like, I was careful.
I was with a boyfriend.
I got grounded instead of, I gotgrounded and my, and my dad

(14:43):
cried, I think'cause I was usedup.
Did you get the cake metaphor?
'cause I got that too.
Like

Jamie (14:48):
used up No,

Rebecca (14:50):
your body is like a cake and if you give away
slices, all that's left for yourhusband is gonna be crumbs.
Yay.
Oh, I was that.

Jamie (14:59):
told.
That's fucked up.

Rebecca (15:01):
Yeah.

Jamie (15:02):
and then I think that's the thing too.
'cause I don't know about you,but I was eager to learn about
things and I think I like wentabout it as learning from my
friends, I guess basically.

Rebecca (15:16):
I gotta eat something.
I gotta eat my feelings on thisone.
I'm sorry.
You keep talking.
I'm gonna have a couple m andms.

Jamie (15:21):
yeah.
please.
always be eating.
but yeah, I just think, and Idon't know about you, but I
think that fucked me up goinginto my first sexual experience
and even some after that,

Rebecca (15:32):
I cried after'cause I thought that's what you were
supposed to do.
I thought you were supposed tofeel guilty after and cried.
I actually didn't really feelguilty, but then I was like,
then I felt guilty that I didn'tfeel guilty.
Then I felt guilty that I likedit and then I cried and made

Jamie (15:46):
not like my first time.
My first time was like, it's notlike, oh, it hurt.
It was just like, eh.

Rebecca (15:53):
And also your daughter on her own decides to wait until
she's with somebody who shefeels strongly about and loves
and uses protection.
To me, that indicates you have asmart fucking kid with a good
head on her shoulders who'sbeing careful on making careful
choices about her own body.

Jamie (16:10):
I think so too.

Rebecca (16:12):
But no,

Jamie (16:13):
oh, my parents didn't know.
Like they didn't know when I hadsex.
I didn't

Rebecca (16:18):
I

Jamie (16:19):
did they find out?

Rebecca (16:20):
I emailed my best friend about, and my mom read my
email.

Jamie (16:25):
Was it like detailed?

Rebecca (16:27):
No, it was just like I lost my virginity.
Like Bryant and I slepttogether, but, and um, my mom
read my email and was like, doyou have something to tell me?
I was like, no,

Jamie (16:37):
Absolutely not.
I had something to tell my best,my best friend.
I emailed,

Rebecca (16:41):
uhhuh I have nothing to tell you.

Jamie (16:45):
oh my God.

Rebecca (16:46):
but yeah, that's what I mean.
It's like I just, I, it's theconstant unlearning of all the
shit that has been taught to youfor years at almost 40 is
exhausting.

Jamie (17:00):
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca (17:01):
It's exhausting to feel abnormal all the time.

Jamie (17:05):
And then that, and then it's even, it can be even worse,
like when you have your ownkids, right?
Like

Rebecca (17:12):
Oh my God, she has no idea.
She, so the kids at her schooltold her that if you're gay,
you're going to hell.
Which pin in that?
'cause I have a lot to fuckingsay about that.
Kids at her school told her, oh,you're a lesbian.
You're gonna go to hell.
You're bi, you're gonna go tohell.
Gay kids are gonna go to hell.
And she's like, what is hell?
What, what, what?
And so it's these piece of shitkids today, we're not talking

(17:35):
like 1980s, 1990s piece of shit.
Kids today, when

Jamie (17:39):
Yeah.

Rebecca (17:40):
Drag queens read to kids in libraries, like telling
kids the kids, telling her thatshe's going to hell.
And she comes home and she'supset and like, should we go to
church?
And like, no, you're not.
Fuck those kids one.
But number two, it's like littlekids shouldn't even know.
I'm sorry.
They shouldn't know about hell.
They shouldn't know.
It's just, that's such a moralweight on them that they're too

(18:01):
little for and they can'tfucking handle.

Jamie (18:04):
And then that just goes to then it just opens up the
whole thing of things are goodand bad.
And even with we've talked aboutfood, like certain foods being
good and bad and like that stemsfrom that as well.
ugh.
I remember though when you firsttold me that was happening with
m because because you grew up inthe church and

Rebecca (18:23):
Yeah.

Jamie (18:24):
horrible experiences.
Of course.
You know, she was not raised inthe church or religious or
anything.
and then she all these kids atschool are like Christian and
talking about God all the time.
And so she's interested, which Iget like, of course you're gonna
be interested.
And so she like came to you andyou called me and you were like,
M wants a Bible.

Rebecca (18:45):
Oh,

Jamie (18:45):
like, what?
And you were

Rebecca (18:46):
not in this house, young lady.
Not in

Jamie (18:49):
Well, you considered it at first because you were like,
I don't wanna like shut thatdown.
You were like, do I get her aBible?
And then by like the end of thelike 15 minute phone call, you
were like, I'm not getting her afucking

Rebecca (19:00):
I told her she can check it out.
At the library.
But I was like, not in thishouse, I did get her a book
written by atheists,specifically for children,
talking about differentreligions, why people believe
what they believe.
just explaining things and thentalking about life science, and
here's why this is not reallytrue, but here's why it makes
sense that people.
Believed it.
And so she's had that book for along time since she was younger.

(19:22):
And so I was like, Hey, let's goback to this again.
Oh God.
Oh, I was, I remember my pin,that was when I first started
thinking like something'sfucking hinky with church was I
had made all these friends, Ihad gay friends and the pastor
did a sermon where he's like,"Igot some bad news folks.
You're not gonna wanna hear it.
You're not gonna like what?
I have to say, you're gay,you're going to hell.

(19:45):
I know it's people we love, butit's just a sad fact.
People we love who are gay,they're going to hell.
You don't believe in God goingto hell.
You don't know about God goingto hell.
All those tribes in Africa don'tknow about God going to hell."

Jamie (19:58):
don't repent.
You don't say enough Hail Marys,you're going to hell.

Rebecca (20:02):
He's like"Jews going out." Like he just made a list
of people going to hell.
Gays were at the top, but, and Isat

Jamie (20:09):
like, you just have to believe and have faith and
you'll go to heaven.
So there's not like all thesethings about being like a good
fucking person.
It's just like,

Rebecca (20:18):
you better get out there and fucking tell'em.
If you don't tell'em they go tohelp, that's your fault.

Jamie (20:23):
Oh God,

Rebecca (20:24):
Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off, but that's the
other, it's just like, and Iremember sitting and be like,
how much trouble am I going toget him if I fucking walk out of
church right now?
I was.
I was like 15, 16.
And I had never done that, but Iwas like, oh, and my brain just
went done.
And then we found out later thathe was stealing from the church.

Jamie (20:43):
I thought you were gonna say that he was gay.

Rebecca (20:45):
No, but then the

Jamie (20:46):
would be even better.

Rebecca (20:48):
the drummer had an affair with the youth group
leader and he divorced his wifeof a million years and then
married the youth group leaderand it was crazy.
Mm-hmm.

Jamie (20:57):
much of that.

Rebecca (20:58):
But the biggest fucking hypocrites is my point.

Jamie (21:01):
Yeah.

Rebecca (21:02):
Telling you.
Fuck you.
You're going to hell or tellingyou how to be fuck you,

Jamie (21:07):
Yeah.

Rebecca (21:08):
fuck you.

Jamie (21:09):
think, yeah,

Rebecca (21:11):
I, um, there's one more little purity culture story.
Went to Jesus camp.
I held hands with a boy.
He was so hot.
So hot.
He was very tall and very hot,and I held hands with him.
And two male youth group leaderstook me aside and away from

(21:34):
everyone, which as an adult now,ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.
Bad problems, bad problems.
Got it.
Didn't know that Then.
And they took me aside and satme down and were basically like
giving me a whole fuckinglecture on the importance of
keeping my purity intact and howI'm sending the wrong signals

Jamie (21:52):
holding hands.

Rebecca (21:54):
what kind of girl I am and my virtues.
And then see this is a thingthat I'm going to say right now
where when I say it out loud, itsounds crazy and like I'm lying,
but it's not.
One of the youth group leaderssaid,"I mean, my wife wasn't a
virgin before we were married.

(22:15):
She was raped, but I forgave herand I married her anyway." And I
wish I was making it up.
But the fact that this man athought that he had any say in
quote, forgiving his wife forbeing raped and B didn't see
that the woman he's supposedlyloved was hideously abused and
was in no way her fault.

Jamie (22:37):
Yeah.

Rebecca (22:37):
Yet he made it her fault.
And she was the one to blame.

Jamie (22:40):
fucked up.

Rebecca (22:42):
And he did a solid by marrying this used up.
And I got the whole like, usedup piece of trash thing.
Like if you two gum, would youwant?
Yeah.
And then I'm like, okay, go backto the group.
And then I made out in the rainso hard with the boy I was
holding him.
Don't fucking tell me what notto do.

Jamie (23:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that kind of, yeah,that's awful.
I, that's what I'm saying isnothing like that to me.
Nothing like that was like, saidto me.
I mean, like, but that's what Ithink, that's what I think
about, growing up in the churchI grew up in, I feel like they
just more, they're, they're verytraditional

Rebecca (23:24):
Mm-hmm.

Jamie (23:25):
they're like, I always like to say that they're boring.
Like anytime someone's like, oh,like, um, I mean, I grew up
Lutheran and like any, wheneversomebody is like, oh, like
what's Lutheran what do theybelieve?
And I'm like, they're Christian.
I was like, they're verytraditional, like very boring.

(23:45):
I've even had like actualLutherans, like who are
Christians?
Say that about

Rebecca (23:49):
My, my grandma's Lutheran, she's always said,
we're Catholics with half theguilt.
like Catholics with half theguilt.
And I was like, honestly fair,

Jamie (23:58):
Yeah.
I feel like it's like less, lessstrict and Everything like that.
Ooh, that's a good question,pat, because I have a story on
that.
Pat said.
How did your schools handleteaching about religion?
Did they teach about all thedifferent ones?

Rebecca (24:14):
you take this one.
'cause I went to public school,they didn't.

Jamie (24:16):
yeah.
Well, I guess that's me.
That's something I can talkabout.
I went to private Lutheranschool my entire life.
My first school was kindergartenthrough eighth grade, all one
school.
from there I went to a highschool that the majority of
people from this, elementaryslash middle school went to.

(24:37):
and so then I went to highschool, also Lutheran, and I
think it's just like my biggestthing.
So it was like being a pastor'skid.
I don't know if that gave memore of a rebellious streak or
because people always expectedlike me to be perfect and like

(24:59):
also be the perfect Christianand like be the perfect daughter
and perfect student and perfectwhatever.
so I don't know if that's whatmade me rebellious or if that's
just my personality.
'cause that's definitely mypersonality.
But that could have been like,learned through that.
I don't know.
but I was always rebellious.
Like I always liked to dressdifferently.
I liked to be friends with theweirdos and the freaks that

(25:21):
everyone else thought, you know?
I don't know, they just like.
Didn't pay attention to ordidn't wanna hang out with.
'cause those are my people, likethose are still my people today.
And like, like look, I haveRebecca, you know, she's my
weirdo freak.
but in, this is a story I wantedto tell.

(25:41):
So like, yes.
So we had religion class.
also there was a confirmation.
So once you're in eighth gradeas a Lutheran, you take
confirmation class, you have totake this class where you like,
basically you're just memorizingthe C cat cataclysm.

Rebecca (25:57):
Mm-hmm.
No

Jamie (26:00):
so

Rebecca (26:00):
cataclysm.
Is that, doesn't that mean bad?
That means a bad event.
Like a cla

Jamie (26:06):
I, as I said that, I was like, wait, is that the, what?
What was it?
The catechism.

Rebecca (26:11):
catechism.
See, again, I

Jamie (26:13):
So not cataclysm.
Catechism.
Sorry.
Catechism.
Catholicism.
Catholicism.
So bad.
We're fine.
Thank you everybody for yourhelp.
My dad is just there oh god.
but.
So catechism.
So you had to like, yeah, so wealways had religion class.
there was always like, I think Kthrough eight, it was like

(26:36):
religion where we just talkedabout different things.
Eighth grade was mostly studyingthe catechism and yeah, you were
basically memorizing it.
And I remember, so the pastors,so the school was connected to
the church, not connectedphysically, but they were like
the same.
It was like this specific churchand this the school.
And so the pastors from thechurch, which one being my

(26:59):
father, would come over andteach religion class to us in
eighth grade and teach us thecatechism.
And I remember my father madethe mistake of telling us all,
you know, oh,'cause we had toanswer these questions in front
of God and our families and ourlike, grandparents that were in
from out of town, like in frontof the church.
And my dad was like, well, Ithink he was trying to be nice.

(27:21):
And he's if you can't remembersomething when you're asked,
just say, I do not recall, andI'll go on to the next person.
we can come back.
So that became a joke to all ofus.
Like my entire class was like,oh, okay.
So especially when we were upthere, like my dad was just
like, why did I do that?
like it's my daughter and herfriends, they're all unhinged.

(27:45):
so we, we would just be like, Ido not recall and say it in such
like a proper way and we said itfor most everything.
so that was embarrassing.
But anyway, not to me.
but the story I wanted to talkabout was when I was in high
school.
So in high school I had theologyclass.
It was my freshman year.

(28:05):
I'm at high school with likehalf kids that I've been going
to school with four, eight yearsalready, eight, nine years
already.
And then half like new kidsthat.
I'm not familiar with in one ofour first theology assignments
from Pastor Mack.
So Pastor Mack, he was a pastorthat I believe was retired.

Rebecca (28:28):
he is not like the other pastors.
He's the cool pastor

Jamie (28:31):
yeah.
No, it's exactly that.
It's exactly that.
But I do really, you'llunderstand why, but I do really
respect him.
I have two stories about him.
One is the first assignment wegot from him in ninth grade was,
I want you all to write one totwo pages about your faith and

(28:54):
like, why you believe in God.

Rebecca (28:56):
Oh shit.

Jamie (28:58):
And at that point I was like, I don't believe in God.
And so I sat there wanting towrite this paper, and I was
like, do I just give lip serviceso that like I tell them what
they want to hear, so I'm notbothered.
But I couldn't do that.

(29:19):
I just felt so strongly aboutno, I have to like, speak my
truth or whatever, So I wrote Ithink three pages about why,

Rebecca (29:28):
One to two, you're like, fuck you, I'll do three.

Jamie (29:31):
I did.
I wrote more, about why I didn'tbelieve, but also why I didn't
know what I believed.
it was basically like, this iswhy I'm agnostic, was like, I
think the thing.
And so I was, after I wrote it,I like reread it a couple times.

(29:51):
I did.
They try to push the dumbasspurity ring things on you.
I never had to get one.

Rebecca (29:57):
I had one.
I had one.
I had two.
Actually.
Guess what?
Guess what?

Jamie (30:05):
They don't work.
They don't work.

Rebecca (30:07):
at work.
That work?

Jamie (30:08):
No, I never had one.
But so after I read it over acouple times, I was like, I
don't know if, I was like, Idon't, pastor Max seems really
cool.
I was like, but I don't know iflike he'll take offense to this
or be like, pissed off becausethat was like, that was usually
what I got for speaking my mind.
'cause I had even told myparents, like when I was young,
when I was that age, that I'mlike, I don't know what I

(30:30):
believe and I don't think thisis it.
And I stopped taking communion.
'cause I read on the back of abulletin one day in church with
my mom, like it was towardvisitors of the church.
And it was like, if you'revisiting, like this is what we
believe and if you don't believethis, please don't take
communion with us.
But if you do, like you'rewelcome to take communion with
us, basically.

(30:50):
And I read that and I was like,I don't believe that.
And so at that moment I was like13 or 14 and I was like probably
14.
And I was like, well, I can't goto communion anymore.
I was like,'cause that's not mytruth, I don't believe that.
And I remember the first time Ididn't go to communion, my mom
was like, and she was like upsetwith me and can you imagine like

(31:12):
pastor's daughter?

Rebecca (31:13):
she can't yell at you in church.
So she's just going

Jamie (31:15):
Yeah.
I think, well I think she waslike, and I was just like, no
picture like 14-year-old Jamie.
I was like, no thank you.

Rebecca (31:24):
and she's we're gonna talk about this in the car.

Jamie (31:26):
But I told them why I was like, but this is what it says.
So like I, I'm not gonna go up'cause that's a lie.
And anyway, so I was feelingweird about it.
So I wrote Pastor Mack this likelittle note on top and I was
just like, Hey, I hope thisdoesn't offend you in any way.
I'm not trying to be offensiveor like facetious.
'cause it was a very seriouspaper and like I thought it was

(31:48):
well done, but it was justagainst everything the church
and the school stood for.
So I come in, I think it waslike we turned it in on a Friday
and then he like graded him overthe weekend and he came in and
so his was the first class I hadevery morning freshman year.
And I would always show up lateand I would bring him a coffee

(32:13):
from where I got a coffee sothat he didn't mark me absent.
And this was before that though,'cause I didn't know him that
well yet.
So I went in, I was kinda likeleaning on my desk, okay,
getting ready to go to sleep inclass.
And then he starts talking aboutthese papers and he's oh, a lot
of these papers were reallygood.
And he goes, there was one thatwas actually like, I think the
best of the bunch.

(32:35):
And I don't know why, but therewas for some reason our, this
person thought I might beoffended and it's I'm not
offended, whatever.
And he was like, but I'm gon,and so when he said that, then I
knew it was me.
I had an inkling and then I knewit was me and I was like, the
best paper.
And I was like, what?
And then he is I'm just gonnaread it for you.
And I was like, oh no.

(32:57):
So he read my paper in front ofclass.
You should have seen howdistraught and just pissed off
all these kids were that I wassurrounded by.
like they were like, oh, butthat person isn't Christian.
They don't believe in God.
And that's horrible.
Why would you say that this isthe best, my paper is about how
I believe in God because that'show my parents raised me.

(33:19):
And I think I wrote that in mypaper too.
I was like, I think a lot ofpeople my age that I've been to
school with.
Maybe they do believe, but Idon't think they've found that
yet on their own right now.
They just believe because theirparents believe,

Rebecca (33:33):
Yeah.
Isn't it weird?
Those, you know how Jesus waslike, love one another, and
they're like, fuck her.
She's not C

Jamie (33:40):
I know.
Well, he didn't say who it was.

Rebecca (33:43):
they knew

Jamie (33:44):
no, not the golf girl at Christian school with fishnets
on her arms.

Rebecca (33:50):
the blue haired girl.
No, not her.

Jamie (33:53):
no.
I couldn't dye my hair.

Rebecca (33:56):
Oh, that's right.
You just shaved it off.

Jamie (33:57):
yeah.
And then I shaved my head ineighth grade and it was a whole
thing and everybody hated it.
And I was treated like a, like afucking leper.

Rebecca (34:06):
I have to ask.
He read it'cause he genuinelymeant it.
Right.
He didn't read it as he'sfucking shaming

Jamie (34:11):
no, no, no, no, no, no.
He genuinely meant it.
And then after class, he likepassed out the papers or
whatever.
And then after class I kindawaited for everybody to leave.
And I went up to him, I waslike, I can't believe you did
that.
And he's it was really wellthought out.
It was really well written.
And he's and this is a time foryou to question.
So with him in theology class inhigh school, we, he made a

(34:33):
point.
We would, we would learn aboutall different religions, which I
thought was really cool.
I think a lot of parentsactually had problems with him
sometimes because he was like,just a little more open.
and the other thing with him wasI was just an average student.
Oh, go ahead.

Rebecca (34:52):
no, I say was he the kind of open where he just sits
on the front of his desk insteadof in his chair and leans back?
He just,

Jamie (35:00):
No,

Rebecca (35:01):
We're gonna just gonna chat today.
Kids.

Jamie (35:03):
he walked around a lot and had a little like tiny
podium thing that he would justlean on.
sometimes he would walk aroundclass too.
And just he was goofy.
He was totally the teacher whowas like, I'm not a tea normal
adult.
I'm like the cool adult.
I'm your friend,

Rebecca (35:18):
of you guys?

Jamie (35:20):
yeah, exactly.
But the other thing with him is,I was reading this book, I can't
believe I remember the author'sname.
It's by James Morrow and it'scalled Towing Jehovah.
And I read so much in highschool.
oh, hey, welcome in.
Not, no, not t I have lot ofrespect for the ones who retain

(35:43):
open-mindedness in a space likethat.
Me too.
Yeah.
No, totally.
And, oh, but I was reading thisbook and he would do this thing
where he would walk around andinstead of being like, Jamie,
you're in trouble.
you need to put your book awayand pay attention.
he would walk around and you'dsometimes he'd be like, oh, what

(36:04):
are you reading?
And I'd be like, oh.
And the book was about God dyingand his massive like giant
fucking body falling, likephysical body falling from the
sky somewhere in Florida, Ibelieve.

Rebecca (36:25):
There's a

Jamie (36:26):
Have you ever told you this?
Have I ever told you?

Rebecca (36:29):
No, but there's a God who, same thing happens.
That's a marble storyline.
Sorry, go ahead.

Jamie (36:35):
Falls from the sky.
It gets better.
And they, Made him and thesurrounding area a theme park,

Rebecca (36:43):
Yeah.

Jamie (36:44):
and I think they had to, it was called Towing Jehovah,
because I, it's been a longtime, but I think they had to
tow him to a certain spot orsomething like

Rebecca (36:52):
Oh my God.

Jamie (36:53):
theme park.
So they were like towing God'sbody a theme park.
Yeah.
It was any, anyway, so that'swhat the book was about.
And so he is oh, what are youreading?
So I was like, hesitant and Iwas like, oh, it's called to
Jehovah.
And then he's oh, what's itabout?
And I was like, I don't know.
And he's no, come on Jamie.
What's it about?
And so I told him, and again,all the kids in my class were

(37:14):
like, oh my God, that'ssacrilegious.
That's sacrilegious.

Rebecca (37:19):
no,

Jamie (37:20):
what a heathen.
She is a heathen.
Stop giving her a voice.

Rebecca (37:23):
it sounds really familiar, pat, because that was
literally a Wolverine andDeadpool.
What it was is they just builtthe whole city in ant man's
skull.
That's why.
Sorry, go ahead.

Jamie (37:36):
You may have read that, pat.
I can picture you reading that.
but yeah, that was my otherstory from that, so yeah, I did
absolutely respect that.
He, and honestly, my, my fatheras well, being a pastor, if I
had asked my father aboutdifferent religions, he wouldn't
be closed off about it.
he would be like, oh, well thisis like what they believe and

(37:56):
whatever.
So I learned a lot from myfather and from, pastor me, my
theology teacher in high school,like about other religions,
which I think helped me too.
And I think that's reallyimportant.
I think that's, I don't think itshould be forced on kids, but, I
think that's, I great to it'slike learning about anything,

(38:17):
here are the facts here.
What's this about?
Here is what.

Rebecca (38:21):
Yeah.

Jamie (38:22):
This group of people

Rebecca (38:24):
Well'cause theology is the study of all religions, not
just one.
that's staying true to what itactually is.

Jamie (38:31):
Yeah.
but yeah, that was my, those aremy two good Pastor Mac stories.

Rebecca (38:37):
My turn learning religion.
You say learning out differentreligions, you say First Jesus
camp I went to was in thePoconos Mount Gilead summer camp
for girls

Jamie (38:49):
Of course, it's Gilead.

Rebecca (38:51):
and they're still in business.
I will see you bitches in hell.

Jamie (38:54):
no.

Rebecca (38:56):
We're in the middle of the woods.
No electricity, nothing.
No media.
We are asleep one night.
It is still freezing ass cold.
We are in a cabin, noelectricity, no walls, and they
burst in and they say, girls getup.
We just heard on the radio thatthe president has made religion
and practicing religion illegal.

(39:17):
We are going to march up thehill.
They're out looking forreligious prac practitioners.
Practitioners.
I don't know.
But we are going to defy him andwe are going to march up this
giant hill.
They're out looking for peoplewho are practicing religion.
They're rounding them up and weare going to show how deep our
faith is and how much we loveGod and how much he'll protect
us by going up and like singing,I know.

(39:38):
Singing some bullshit song inthe middle of the field, in the
middle of the night.
So then you have a group ofadult women leading a group of
sobbing little girls who, by theway, a side note, this is when
Bill Clinton was president andwe were dumb girls who didn't
know the constitution or thefact that Bill Clinton had a

(39:59):
nice blow job from an intern.
We had no clue.
And so had we had any criticalthinking skills, we would've
been like, well that doesn'tseem right.
But we were 11, so we march upthis hill, we're all sobbing.
It's dark as shit except for theflashlights because again, no
electricity in anywhere.
Middle of woods in the Poconos.

(40:20):
We get up to the hill, we areall convinced that the
helicopters are coming and weare going to be round up and
shot

Jamie (40:26):
Jesus fucking Christ, dude.

Rebecca (40:28):
and we get up there.
Ah, they say girls, LOL.
This is just a test of yourfaith to see like how much you
actually believed in God.
And the fact that you came uphere shows that you really do
believe in him.
Good job.
And I told you this, Jamie, butlooking back now, there is a

(40:48):
spark of me today that therewas, that exists today.
That was in there back then.
Because I went, I want to callmy mother right now.
And I went and I called mymother and

Jamie (41:01):
You are like, this is fucked up.

Rebecca (41:03):
It was, and they didn't come get me.
And as an adult it's'cause theyhad another little kid at home
and it was like three hoursaway.
I did not forgive them for avery long time for not coming to
get me.
I get it now.
But I did learn that my motherwrote multiple scathing letters
to them, I don't know if shethreatened legal action.
I would almost guarantee it.

(41:24):
but Mount Gilead.
Christian camper girls,

Jamie (41:28):
it still

Rebecca (41:29):
fuck you.
Still exists.

Jamie (41:32):
That's so

Rebecca (41:33):
you, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you.
And again, now the 87% ofpeople, it's like a light bulb.
They all get it now.
Simmering pot of rage.

Jamie (41:46):
Well, and it just makes you like also not trust

Rebecca (41:49):
Nope.

Jamie (41:50):
Like you're just lied to.
what is that Lying is a sin.
Why are you lying to these likeyoung, impressionable girls who
like don't know any better andare like depending on you, the
adults to Jesus?

Rebecca (42:06):
And again, that story is one of those things you
didn't even know about.
And you're my best friendbecause when I

Jamie (42:12):
I just heard about this today.

Rebecca (42:15):
it sounds crazy and none of it is exaggerated.
It is all exactly as ithappened.
And I'm probably underselling itbecause we were sobbing

Jamie (42:28):
It's not lying.
It's a test of faith

Rebecca (42:30):
and I, we put in the, we put in the outline, how is
the church not an abusiverelationship?
How is religion and the churchnot your abuser?
It makes you feel bad aboutyourself all the time.
It talks down you.
It tells you what a piece.
There's literally a worship songtalking about he died on the
cross for a worm.
Such as I.
So you feel like shit all thetime.

(42:52):
It tells you're bad.
Look what I did for you.
Aren't you fucking gladeverything you have is because
of me?

Jamie (42:58):
Listen, I know exactly where you're going with this,
Rebecca, and yes, I would stilllove you if you were a worm.

Rebecca (43:06):
Thank you.

Jamie (43:07):
I would take care of you.

Rebecca (43:08):
Oh my God.
Thank you so much.
You can live in my garden.
I'd let you live in my garden.

Jamie (43:13):
no.
I'm not a worm.
You're a worm.

Rebecca (43:14):
Oh, okay.
Thank you.
I will live in your gardenanyway.
My point is, it is fuckingabusive as fuck.
And I will take everything awayif you go against me.
How is that not abuse?
It is abuse.
And while we're on that fuckingtopic, going back to my rage
pot, I can see my face and I'mjust like getting pink.
James Dobson, a focus on thefamily also.

(43:37):
Fuck you.
Because my parents followedalong with your whole spare the
rod, spoil the child and boil.
Boy, we were not spoiled at all.
And I blame you for a lot of myupbringing.
Go fuck yourself.
Go fuck yourself.
And again, you wanna talk aboutfucking ripples.
I am in therapy because I don'tknow how to parent.

(44:00):
I wanted to parent withoutscreaming or hitting.
And I didn't know how to do thatbecause we didn't get that.
But I am doing that becausewe're stopping the fucking
cycle.
But the fact that was given toparents under the guise of
religion.
And so the parents are going,well, we're doing, we're doing
what religious leaders aretelling you.
And then us today are going, wewere in abusive households and

(44:25):
abused, and the parents arelike, no, this was not abusive.
We loved you.
And then we get the whole, we'redoing this because we love you.

Jamie (44:33):
Yeah.

Rebecca (44:34):
Oh, the worst part was they would apologize to us after
and then make us hug them toshow that they still loved us.
It's an abusive relationship.

Jamie (44:45):
horrible.

Rebecca (44:46):
Relationship.
And that's, but that's what theytold the parents to do.
Sorry.

Jamie (44:50):
Yeah, no, I know.
Pat said it's like militarybootcamp where they break you
down so they can build you uphow they want

Rebecca (44:58):
Except they don't build you up.
They keep holding you down.
They keep telling you thatyou're not worthy.
Everything bad that happens isbecause of

Jamie (45:04):
believe them.

Rebecca (45:06):
Until you, you, whatever you fucking did was not
good enough.
Here's the thing.
My parents told me that, my momtold me.
She was like, oh, you were greatat arguing and making arguments.
You were so smart.
And asked so many questions.
They beat that outta me becauseit was bad, it was disobedient.
And I know I'm not, it's notjust me.
this is how kids were raised inevangelical households.

(45:27):
Right?
so you have a whole generationof people out there who are now
recovering from that.

Jamie (45:35):
Yeah.
And who knows if it'll ever be afull recovery, honestly.

Rebecca (45:39):
It's never gonna be,

Jamie (45:40):
there's a lot.
Paper says you're worthy, papersays you're worthy.

Rebecca (45:45):
of being a worm.

Jamie (45:47):
Yeah.
That's probably what she meant.

Rebecca (45:48):
Yeah.
Thank you.
and it's, and the kids whoaren't in therapy, the kids of
yesterday who are parents nowwho aren't in therapy, are now
fucking up the next fuckinggeneration of kids because they
don't know any better.

Jamie (46:00):
I'm telling you, it's like we go to therapy'cause our
parents didn't go to therapy.
You know what I mean?

Rebecca (46:05):
and how is Jesus love?
How is that, how are you showJesus was love.
Fuck.
He was like, you're gonna stonethis hooker.
I don't think so.
Like you go for, you hatedcapitalism.

Jamie (46:18):
Yes.

Rebecca (46:20):
He literally hung out with prostitutes and the blind
and the disabled.
Those were his people.
He loved everyone.
He gave, he had snacks.
He had good snacks.
He made sure everyone hadsnacks.
Like he brought the booze likehe was a good guy.
And you are telling me that youthink he would approve of all
the shit you're doing.

Jamie (46:40):
That's what gets me to,

Rebecca (46:42):
What?

Jamie (46:44):
yeah.

Rebecca (46:45):
No.
Fuck you.

Jamie (46:48):
oh my God.

Rebecca (46:50):
And yet, here's the other thing you and I were
talking about.
We are raised with this with,and we turned out the way we
did, and we're liberals.
We try to be open-minded.
We try to be empathetic.
We try to have good emotionalintelligence because that's how
we were raised.
Like in talking about Jesus, notnot, but like in the, in, in

(47:12):
the, how Jesus was, we were toldhow Jesus

Jamie (47:16):
Yeah.

Rebecca (47:17):
And so trying to, as non-religious people, just
trying to take those lessons andemulate them.
And then our parents was like,

Jamie (47:24):
Be a good person and try to love, not everyone, but try
to love, most everybody.
and then our parents are like, Idon't know how you got like
this, I don't know how like youbecame so liberal and like blah,
blah.
And it's it's not even that I'mso liberal, it's just that like
you raised me to be a goodfucking person.

(47:44):
And that's what I'm trying to dois be a good fucking person
because that's what I think isimportant.

Rebecca (47:49):
Correct.

Jamie (47:50):
And that blows my mind when they're like, I don't know
how, you're like this now.
And it's what?

Rebecca (47:56):
Right.
What do you mean you didn't votefor Trump?
he's the, he's exactly anexample of

Jamie (48:01):
Oh my God.

Rebecca (48:02):
person.

Jamie (48:03):
Jesus was alive today, like Jesus would be like,

Rebecca (48:06):
He would flip the table.
He would flip his shit so hard.

Jamie (48:10):
yeah.
There's just that, that all thatman is hate and greed and
selfishness

Rebecca (48:18):
Everything.
Jesus hated everything we were

Jamie (48:21):
it's I don't understand it, man.

Rebecca (48:23):
no.

Jamie (48:23):
it.

Rebecca (48:24):
and here's the thing.
Oh, you really wanna talk aboutsome shit.
Okay.
I.
Church leaders are tellingeveryone, in churches that are
doing this, that while Trump,he's an imperfect leader, but
he's still there because Christ,we wanna have a Christlike
America and he's gonna help us.
Christian nationalism is a wholething, which is a whole other

(48:45):
podcast.
'cause that's that's too much toget into.
But everything Jamie and I aretalking about is rooted in
Christian nationalism, which isthe belief that this religion is
the only religion, the rightreligion.
And it is our job as Christiansto go out across the nation and
make everyone else conform toour beliefs, because that's what

(49:07):
Christ would fucking want.

Jamie (49:09):
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca (49:11):
And so they're saying that even though Trump is an
imperfect leader, he's there tohelp the spread of, to make this
nation Christian,

Jamie (49:22):
all part of God's plan.

Rebecca (49:23):
it's all part of God's plan.
And I'm stuttering.
I'm stuttering because I thinkI'm going to have a stroke.
And I'm trying not to throw upand cry.

Jamie (49:32):
Should we take a break?

Rebecca (49:34):
I'm okay, but I just, the, again, the rage, the
flames, the flames.

Jamie (49:41):
I know.
Yeah.

Rebecca (49:44):
My face

Jamie (49:44):
a lot.

Rebecca (49:45):
it's so hot.
but that's what it is.
And it just, it baffles me.
It baffles me, how they thinkthat someone who literally
sexually assaulted women, probI'm gonna go with raped.
who hates everyone who's notwhite or male?
and who is.
Surrounding himself with otherpeople who also hate those
people, how they can say, whowould love that guy?

(50:08):
Fucking Jesus.
He and Jesus would hang, theymake paintings of him in the
office with Jesus standingbehind him on his shoulder,
being like, great job, dude.

Jamie (50:18):
Yeah.

Rebecca (50:19):
What?
What?

Jamie (50:22):
Yeah.

Rebecca (50:23):
Sorry.
I'm sorry.
I know.
I just

Jamie (50:25):
No, no, no, no, no.
Don't be sorry.
That's what, that's why we'retalking about this.
That's why we're doing this.
That's,

Rebecca (50:31):
ripples.
Just, and you wanna talk aboutburnout?
Every time someone says, I prayfor you, I wanna slap'em across
the fucking face.

Jamie (50:39):
yeah.

Rebecca (50:39):
Please don't.
No thank you.
Mm-hmm.
No.

Jamie (50:43):
Everything happens for a reason.
It's all part of God's plan.

Rebecca (50:48):
If someone said to me, oh, when my grandpa died, but at
least he's with Jesus now or ina better place.

Jamie (50:56):
Yeah.

Rebecca (50:58):
No.

Jamie (50:58):
I had such a hard time when my grandma died and when my
grandpa died, when all of mygrandparents died, but in
particular my mother's parents,because we were closest to them,
we lived near them.
Most of my life.
And I remember family coming upto me because I was like

(51:21):
inconsolable, like at thefunerals and after hanging out
with family.
And I remember family coming upto me that knew that I didn't
believe in God and they wouldcome up to me and say, do you
think you're having such a hardtime with this because you don't

(51:41):
believe in God and you don'tbelieve they're in heaven?
Kinda like

Rebecca (51:46):
you

Jamie (51:46):
doing so much better with this if you believed in God and
heaven.
And that's how I think of it.
Like I think of it as just Idon't know.
like I get it to a certainextent, like wanting to have
this thing to make you feelcomfort

Rebecca (52:01):
They're hiding though.

Jamie (52:03):
shit.
Like

Rebecca (52:04):
dealing, though.
They're not.
They're not processing emotions.
They're hiding behindChristianity.
And then it comes out as beatingthe shit outta your kids later.
'cause you can't deal with yourfucking trauma.

Jamie (52:14):
Yeah.

Rebecca (52:15):
You are processing it in real time.
You're feeling grief, you'resad.
You're not trying, becausethat's the other thing you're
learning is that you better begoddamn tap dancing.
Fucking happy at all the thingsthat Jesus has given you.
Why are you crying?
He's what?
You're not allowed to feelanything but gratitude and
happiness and the fact that you,they were trying to talk you out

(52:36):
of grief.

Jamie (52:38):
Yeah.

Rebecca (52:39):
I am sorry that

Jamie (52:40):
at my grand, yeah, it's okay.
I remember at my grandma'sfuneral too, like just sitting
in the very back of the churchand just I couldn't stop crying
and like I wouldn't go see.
Same with my grandpa.
Like I won't look at people incoffins.
Like I won't do that.
And I just remember lookingaround at everyone that was like

(53:03):
visiting basically with eachother.
I get it too.
You're seeing a lot of peopleyou haven't seen in a while and
fine, great.
But like I was just sodistraught and just bawling and
I could not stop.
I was practicallyhyperventilating and I was just
looking around at all thesepeople just like talking to each
other.
And I like, I just rememberthinking like, how no one else

(53:25):
like this upset right now?

Rebecca (53:28):
Yes.

Jamie (53:30):
am I the one, and sorry, not to say yes, a lot of people
were very upset,

Rebecca (53:35):
You were feeling your feelings though.
You weren't adding the addendumof but he's in heaven.
You were Actually, I get exactlywhat you mean.

Jamie (53:41):
yeah.
Whew.

Rebecca (53:44):
I, this just popped into my head.
as a real world example, likethat happened last month.
I have a lot of clothes thatdon't fit anymore, and I have a
different body and now than Idid with a lot of my clothes.
And, one of my friends was like,well, why don't you get
something sexy?
Don't you have anything sexy towear?
And I was like, oh, no.
no.
I, which again, I'm 40, but Idon't think about dressing that

(54:06):
way because it was hammered intome for so fucking long that's
not how you dress.

Jamie (54:12):
Yeah.

Rebecca (54:13):
and that's just

Jamie (54:14):
dressing how I wasn't supposed to dress though.
I

Rebecca (54:17):
I'm so proud of you though, like

Jamie (54:19):
made it a point that was like the only thing I could do.

Rebecca (54:22):
it's so brave.

Jamie (54:23):
convenient and emotionally simple to live
blind, but it's A weird selfsnitch to suggest that there's
nothing twisted about believingas an act of cope.

Rebecca (54:35):
Yep, exactly.

Jamie (54:37):
Yeah.
I get it.
I think I actually think aboutthat a lot.
Like I've even have had peoplethat love me, that I love cry to
me and literally say just so sadlike that you won't be with me
in heaven.
Or something like that, which islike a fucked up thing to say to
somebody.
but at the same time, and thisis probably just me, but like

(54:58):
one, I get it because if Ibelieve something so strongly
and it was this great thing andthis person that I also love so
very much wasn't going to havethat and was instead gonna have
something that I believe is soterrible, I would be really
upset about that and crying.
So I understand it from thataspect, but it's also not really

(55:19):
a great thing to be like, I'm sosorry that you're just gonna go
to hell.
whatever.
But yeah, I do that.
That's how I see religion and Idon't fault religion or
believing in a higher being.

Rebecca (55:32):
Oh no, it's the people.

Jamie (55:33):
for, yeah.
I don't fault that for, butthat's how I see it.
I see it as a cope.
I just see it as this is a nicething to believe, like this is a
nice story to believe.
and I don't know by the way,like that's why I am I agnostic
as fuck because I don't know,could something be sure, maybe,

(55:54):
probably not, but I don't know,like I believe Jesus was a dude
that sounds really fucking coolto me.
And,

Rebecca (56:04):
But so is Buddha.
So is Mohammed.
They're,

Jamie (56:06):
I don't believe like he is God like or the son of God.

Rebecca (56:12):
I think being autistic, and undiagnosed little, but
still, like growing up in thechurch, being autistic, it's
really hard because there's alot of things that don't make
sense.
And you're like, and they'relike, just believe.
And you're like, no.
You have to explain to me howthat actually works.
For example, a man cannot sit ina whale's, digestive juices and

(56:36):
not die.
How does, well, God saved him.
No, because it's acid.
Acid and acid.
Like I really struggled becauseI was like,

Jamie (56:45):
Yeah.
I think that's it too, is likeboth of us are like big question
askers

Rebecca (56:50):
oh God.
Yes.

Jamie (56:51):
and I think that just

Rebecca (56:53):
What do you mean he had a boat big enough for all
animals?

Jamie (56:57):
Yeah.
what

Rebecca (56:59):
It was just a big boat.
no.
Also, how did all the animalscross the ocean to get to him?
Did all the animals live on onecontinent?
No, they didn't.
'cause if you, I don't know,let's say we were in Egypt.
How did he get like kangaroosfrom Australia?

Jamie (57:13):
you guys, Rebecca has really thought about this,

Rebecca (57:16):
No, those are the questions I'm, that's what I
mean though.
Like those are the questions andit was like it didn't make sense
and it never made sense, butjust being told to believe.

Jamie (57:26):
Yeah.

Rebecca (57:27):
See, Nope.
This goes back to my, that's howyou get Nazis.
If you just listen and followorders and believe that's how
you get Nazis.
And I think that's just, I waslike,

Jamie (57:34):
That's very true.
That's very true.

Rebecca (57:37):
that's my thesis in life is like you don't follow
'cause that's how Nazis happen.
but that's what I mean, likequestioning and not believing
and wanting a kid and parentswanting a kid who's,'cause kids
are exhausting, but wanting akid who is complacent and
follows the rules but doesn'tlike,

Jamie (57:53):
Yeah,

Rebecca (57:55):
I dunno, man, I don't know.

Jamie (57:58):
I'm trying to think if there was any other,

Rebecca (58:00):
I wanna talk about commun communion real quick.
I was

Jamie (58:03):
yeah.
Yeah.
We

Rebecca (58:04):
'cause church was at like 10 10 to 11 AKA prime snack
time.
Prime snack time.
oh, two things actually.
and one, I was so excited when Ifinally got commun communion
because hell yeah, snack time.
I was always hungry in churchand I was so disappointed by how
gross it was.

Jamie (58:22):
Yeah,

Rebecca (58:24):
oh, yuck.
And at my grandma's church, theyall drank out of the same cup.
I'm like, I'm not fucking doingthat.
That's disgusting.

Jamie (58:31):
we could all go visit the giant ark in Kentucky.
Wait, there's a giant ark inKentucky.
I don't know about this.

Rebecca (58:37):
there is actually, Fundie Fridays is a YouTube
channel that I follow and likethey, they deconstruct a lot of
evangelical people and movementsand beliefs.
they're great.
I think they went to that, orwas it the Creationism Museum?
They also went to the PreciousMoments Museum.
So,

Jamie (58:54):
I looked it up and all I see is like children on zip
lines.
Like they have like zip linesthat maybe go from the arc, I
don't know.
a creation museum.

Rebecca (59:07):
Yep.
Where dinosaurs are just 6,000years old or something.
Bullshit

Jamie (59:12):
didn't have that problem.
My old church had bombass food.
Oh dude.
We would have what were theycalled?
Potlucks.
Potlucks and shit all the timewhere like people would like
cook and make good food.
That food was good, however.
my coffee addiction started whenI was like 10, 11, and my dad
would just give me coffeesometimes, but it was always
church coffee and it was notgood, but that is what started

(59:35):
it.
oh yeah.
But communion, no, it was nevergood.

Rebecca (59:40):
you guys didn't have, oh, sorry.
no.
You go.
you?

Jamie (59:44):
I was just, this is just a stupid funny story.
It's like me and my friend, Iwas telling you Jackie, who
like, we would watch VeggieTails all the time.
We knew all the veggie tailssongs and like always fooled
around and we would, sometimeswe'd go up to communion together
and our favorite thing to do iswe always took the little,
plastic cup of like communionwine as like a shot.

(01:00:08):
So we would take it really fastas a shot.
Yeah.
And then, this one time I wasjust fooling around and so I
think I even looked up at mydad,'cause my dad's like giving
communion, right?
My dad's oh my God.
but I was like shoving my tonguein the glass and then I was like
looking over at Jackie and thenit broke.
I was like, that looked bad.

(01:00:29):
we're gonna cut that.
and like my tongue broke it andit, it broke apart.
So then I had to take it andthey have a tray because even
though they're supposed to bedisposable plastic cups, they
would still have you return themto them.

Rebecca (01:00:44):
they washed and reused them.

Jamie (01:00:45):
would wash them and reuse them, of course.
And I know that they weren'tgonna reuse this or whatever,
but I had to put that like onthe tray for the elders or like
church people to be like, what'dyou do?

Rebecca (01:00:58):
That's gonna cost us 5 cents.
Damn it.

Jamie (01:01:01):
And also at the church that I really grew up in, for 14
years of my life, we lived thereand went there from when I was
four till 18.
after communion, after churchwas over and everything, like
the elder or the pastor, whoeverwould go out and if they had a
bottle of wine that only had alittle left in it, they would

(01:01:23):
just go outside and dump it andnot even look, they just opened
the store and dump it in the itwas like a bush or something
like, just like the whatever.
And then all of a

Rebecca (01:01:31):
a waste

Jamie (01:01:32):
they started noticing that the bush started getting a
hole in it.
So they were killing this bush

Rebecca (01:01:40):
church wine is.
Acid

Jamie (01:01:44):
it was so bad.
It was just a normal healthybush.
And then all of a sudden thishole, it started getting bearer
and bearer in the middle andthen there was like a hole in it
because they would just dump theleftover

Rebecca (01:01:55):
church wine.
No, I was gonna tell you, youdidn't do altar calls.
I don't think you did, but altarcalls in church are when, I
think it's during communion.
but if you feel moved to go up,because you, your faith in
Christ has been renewed oryou're feeling extra slutty,
sinful that day, I don't fuckingknow.
You can go up

Jamie (01:02:15):
feeling extra slutty, sinful.

Rebecca (01:02:17):
correct, you can walk up your little walk to the front
of the church and just stand upthere and be like, I am a
sinner, but I am repenting andI'm renewing my faith to God.
I, Rachel if I'm wrong on this,I think you did one.
I was embarrassed for you if itwas you.
I know someone in You did.
But I remember my mom one timewas just looking at me like,

Jamie (01:02:37):
You gonna go?
Was it after she found out youlost your virginity?

Rebecca (01:02:41):
no, thankfully no.
But she was just like, is thatsomething that interests you?
And she will also be like, Inever did that.
You 100%

Jamie (01:02:49):
Isn't that so funny?
I'll tell my mom things that shedidn't, she'll be like, I never
did that.
And I'll be like, you did too.
You a hundred percent did too.

Rebecca (01:02:58):
don't tell the autistic with receipts that you didn't
because bitch, you did.
You did

Jamie (01:03:03):
that you didn't do it.
We remember

Rebecca (01:03:06):
you remember?
But

Jamie (01:03:07):
we hold grudges, we are pepperidge farming, all of that
shit.
we got it.
We got notes.

Rebecca (01:03:13):
But I never took, I never got confirmed.
I never did the alt alter calls.
Like I pretty much was like,nah,

Jamie (01:03:20):
I thought it was gonna be like you had to go.
'cause like we also had, whatdid they call them?
Oh, I wish I could remember whatthey called them.
We basically had to do likeservice hours, like volunteer
hours.
But they called them like, theycalled them something stupid and
we would have to do it for likeour school.

Rebecca (01:03:42):
Choice for Christ.

Jamie (01:03:44):
it was something dumb.
It wasn't that dumb, but it waslike something very stupid.
I'll think of it later maybe, orwhen I do the show notes for
this, but so one of the waysthat I would do that is I,
again, a lot with my friendJackie, we would schedule our,
aco.
So we would do ACO where we likeput on the robes and were, we
like lit the candles and thenput the candles out at the end

(01:04:06):
and then I just remember doingthat as Service hours to get
that out of the way.
And it was like, so bad becauseJackie and I would just just be
like whispering and likegiggling, like all the time.
And we had, would have to sit,so not only did we have to go up
in these robes and like lightcandles, but like for the
service you would have thepastors are on this side sitting
here and you would have to sithere Hey, trash

Rebecca (01:04:28):
did your dad

Jamie (01:04:29):
trash pals.

Rebecca (01:04:31):
did your dad just ever look at you like, I will fucking
kill you?

Jamie (01:04:35):
No, I think there were even some things like my father
did that were just like, likesilly and like to be funny.
And so I think stuff like that.
And also like we were kids, likeI think like my dad got that a
little bit, but, I don't know.
I'm sure there were tons oftimes where my father was like,
shouldn't have done that orshould have seen this coming,

Rebecca (01:04:57):
Oh yeah.

Jamie (01:04:57):
like that I do not recall for example.

Rebecca (01:05:00):
Pat said the last time we went to church back when I
was in middle school, theycalled out the new people up to
the front to come kneel andquote, except the Lord is your
savior and have the crackerthing.
I remember when they came to me,they asked me and I told them
that I didn't accept, and theywere so stunned and moved on.
I went for the, I had went forthe girl I liked at the time
because she wanted me to go.
We didn't hang out anymore afterthat.

(01:05:20):
That I remember

Jamie (01:05:21):
for you.

Rebecca (01:05:22):
with someone, you had to be like, are you Christian?
And then try to get them to,because you couldn't really date
them if they weren't Christians.
You'd be like, you gotta be aChristian now, or at least go to
church.

Jamie (01:05:30):
Yeah.

Rebecca (01:05:30):
Just why, just fucking date him?

Jamie (01:05:33):
When I shaved my head in eighth grade like that too was
just like how everyone reactedand like how I was so like
othered and I get it.
Like it was the nineties, solike it was the nineties and I
was a girl, so it was shocking.
I get that.
But just like the way my parentsand everyone at school and
church reacted.
Like one of my friend's dadswould always be like, oh, hey GI

(01:05:55):
Jane to me, like every time.
And I just hated it.
And yeah.
And

Rebecca (01:06:01):
you

Jamie (01:06:02):
I think I told him that once, like as a teenager.
He said it so many times that Ithink I was finally like, that's
not really funny.
I don't like it when you saythat.
it's oh.
But, what else was I gonna say?
I don't remember.

Rebecca (01:06:15):
GI Jane.
Fuck it.

Jamie (01:06:18):
I was talking about shaving my head.
No, I

Rebecca (01:06:21):
Chores for Christ.

Jamie (01:06:23):
don't remember.
Oh, well.

Rebecca (01:06:27):
again, I could go on about this four hours, four
hours, and I'm, I won't, but Ireally want to because there's
just so

Jamie (01:06:35):
We can.
We can still go

Rebecca (01:06:37):
no, no, no.
I have, I have a list ofgrievances against a lot of
people.
All right.
Do you wanna share the favorite,your favorite thing that ever
happened to you at church?
Just so we can end a good note.
'cause I got in a Camaro in mychurch parking lot.
That was the best thing thatever happened to me at church.

Jamie (01:06:57):
I made out in what they called the cry room.
It was where they literally hada little, like soundproofed
room, you know what I mean?
In the back of the church withsome toys where like you could
take your kid if your kid wasscreaming, or if you had a baby
and the baby was crying, youneeded, or you needed to
breastfeed because that has tobe in this dark room in the
back,

Rebecca (01:07:17):
Cover up your sinning titties.

Jamie (01:07:19):
and people really weren't in there too much.
And if they did, if a mom camein, we would leave, but like me
and my friends would just go inthere and hang out because no
one could hear us.
And so we could just like, likefool around and like laugh and
stuff.
But I totally made out with ahandful of people in the cry
room.

Rebecca (01:07:39):
I love that for you.

Jamie (01:07:41):
at the same time.
It's not like we didn't have,yeah, they called it the cry
room.
I know.
I don't know.

Rebecca (01:07:46):
do they do lock-ins ever?
Where it was like, let's take abunch of horny fucking teenagers
and lock'em in a church and playgames, and then they're also
gonna turn not to finger eachother in different rooms the
whole time.

Jamie (01:07:57):
My, my church didn't do many of those when I was there,
but I had a friend's church whodid, and I would always go with
her to her church and I wouldalways get in trouble at her
church lock-ins.

Rebecca (01:08:10):
I'm so proud of you.

Jamie (01:08:12):
Thank you.
It's,

Rebecca (01:08:14):
You know what's really fun is having cousins in the
same family circle and now beingadults and you're like, how is
your church?
And then just comparing notesbecause again, sometimes you
feel crazy and when you comparenotes you're like, oh no.
Okay.
Not us.
We're not crazy.

Jamie (01:08:33):
I would actually love to talk to some people I went to
high school with or middleschool with about this stuff.
But I don't really talk toanybody I went to school with
really.

Rebecca (01:08:43):
That's for the best probably.
I don't either.

Jamie (01:08:45):
I've also been, but I like, since I keep bringing up
Jackie, I kinda wanna reach outto Jackie.
She, she was, she was good fun.

Rebecca (01:08:53):
Yeah.
I think I talked to one pers,one to two people from high
school still, and that's aboutit.
That's fine.

Jamie (01:09:00):
Most of my friends were like, outside of my school.
They went to other schools.
Oh, that's what I was gonna say.
It was back to shaving my headis that my best friend, like we
had been best friends for a longtime.
I went on family vacation withher.
Like her mother loved me, hersister loved me.
I would spend the night thereall the time.

(01:09:20):
She would be at my place all thetime.
we had been best friends foryears.
And I shaved my head and her momcontacted my mom and said she
didn't feel comfortable with herdaughter hanging out with me
anymore.
And my mom thought that wasfucked up.

(01:09:40):
And so my mom talked to herabout it, but she couldn't
change her mind and she justfelt differently.
And I think it was justbasically,

Rebecca (01:09:47):
I don't like that.
Jamie.
Girl.
She's a bad influence.

Jamie (01:09:50):
I don't even think it was like bad influence.
I think she thought that I waslike, insane or something, or

Rebecca (01:09:56):
Oh

Jamie (01:09:57):
yeah, because I did that, which is dumb, but I remember
that was like, that was sohurtful and that was like so

Rebecca (01:10:05):
God.

Jamie (01:10:06):
up to me.
But I think we weren't allowedto see each other or talk to
each other for

Rebecca (01:10:11):
Oh.

Jamie (01:10:11):
yeah, for three months or something.
Two or three months.
And then her mother finallyallowed us to see each other
again.
once my hair grew out.
No, I'm just kidding.
I don't know.
But.

Rebecca (01:10:21):
I have to tell you this real quick.
So in college, it was a Sundayand one of my, one of my people
on my dorm floor was like, Hey,I'm gonna go to our church.
Do you wanna come?
And I was like, fuck it.
What?
Hell, I don't care.
Let's go.
'cause breakfast is promised.
After I went, now the church Iwent to was PCA Presbyterian,
which is evangelical.

(01:10:42):
And there would be a lot of,like, when we did praise songs,
there'd be a lot of like handsand worship sometimes falling to
our knees.
Not a lot, but there, therewould be a lot of

Jamie (01:10:51):
in tongues,

Rebecca (01:10:52):
no, this church, however we went to.
And they did.
And I was so shocked that Iactually start and like nervous.
I started laughing out loud andthen I got like the nervous
giggles because I didn't knowwhat was happening and I didn't
know what this was.
And I was like, and they're justlike, Hamal, shaham, shamala.

(01:11:15):
And I'm like, oh.
And I couldn't stop because theykept going and it sounded so
fucking stupid.
And I was like, what ishappening?
And no one had prepared me.
And so I had to invite myself toleave because it was,

Jamie (01:11:30):
that was like, kind of my experience.
It's so uncomfortable.
'cause I told you, a guy I waswith was Pentecostal and so it
would take me to church and thenalso like after church, all
these like middle aged ladies.
And I was like 18, 19 probablyat this time.
All these like middle agedladies would come up to me after

(01:11:51):
and like surely because of how Idressed, because I was still in
goth punk Jamie stage, which I'mstill in.
I'm still in my goth punk era.
But I just put on this dress forchurch.
I just put on this dress forchurch.
he then, and they all would comeup to me like all sweet and be
like, oh, we just.
God has called us, or God hascompelled us to come, pray over

(01:12:15):
you.
May we pray over you.
And I would be like,

Rebecca (01:12:17):
We're gonna lay, anoint you with oil and lay

Jamie (01:12:19):
no.

Rebecca (01:12:19):
you.
No, you may not.

Jamie (01:12:22):
I was like, I don't even believe in God.
I'm just doing this because I'mfucking that guy.
I'm like,

Rebecca (01:12:29):
Yeah.

Jamie (01:12:29):
yeah, but people would get up and speak in tongues and
I was just like, yep.

Rebecca (01:12:33):
Hamal, shamala.
Get the snakes.
It's time.
I,

Jamie (01:12:38):
Now is the time to worship.

Rebecca (01:12:42):
Anyways, thanks for joining us today.
We're, we're gonna play a gameand not talk about this anymore,
and

Jamie (01:12:49):
Last week we talked about all the things that we, like.
This week we just talked about abunch of things that we hate
that are very traumatic.

Rebecca (01:12:57):
all of our trauma.
All of our

Jamie (01:12:59):
to the Burnout Collective, where we trauma bond
every week, Thursdays 5:00 PMPacific.

Rebecca (01:13:06):
we have to stress eat m and ms.
Thank you for everyone forcoming to listen to talk to us
or to listen to us talk about,childhood trauma and our super
fun religious upbringing.
we might have to do a part two.

Jamie (01:13:22):
Yeah.
Oh yeah, we definitely will.
Vacation burnout school.
We

Rebecca (01:13:26):
Mm-hmm.

Jamie (01:13:27):
We'll do it.
But yeah, thank you guys so muchfor hanging out.
Thanks for your support.
Thanks for staying.
We really appreciate you, evenif you're just lurking.
Like we really appreciate youbeing here and supporting us in
that way.

Rebecca (01:13:38):
Yeah,

Jamie (01:13:40):
lurking chatting, but also if you have not yet, please
join our discord.

Rebecca (01:13:47):
It's so much fun.

Jamie (01:13:49):
So please join our Discord one and two, wherever
you get your podcasts.
It doesn't matter.
Follow us, subscribe.
It's usually a follow button.
And then rate s five stars.
We would love actual reviewstoo.
I don't know if every app allowsyou to do reviews, but, we have
no reviews so far and we wouldlove it.
We have five stars and weappreciate it, but it'd just be

Rebecca (01:14:11):
That's from me though.
Yeah.
I, someone else needs to give usfive stars.
It can't just be me.

Jamie (01:14:16):
It's not

Rebecca (01:14:17):
if we don't wanna review us

Jamie (01:14:18):
I think there's seven, I think there's seven people

Rebecca (01:14:21):
Ooh.

Jamie (01:14:22):
that have rated us.

Rebecca (01:14:24):
All right.

Jamie (01:14:25):
you if you're one of those seven people.
Thank you.
Only if you're one of thoseseven people.
Do we appreciate you.
Just kidding.

Rebecca (01:14:33):
But yeah, we do not have anyone on the slate for
next week, but if things change,we will let you know.
But we will be here at the veryleast.

Jamie (01:14:40):
we'll be here.
love you guys.
Take your med meds.
Go get something to eat, drinksome water and take care of
yourself.
Tomorrow's Friday.
Have a good weekend.

Rebecca (01:14:51):
God bless.

Jamie (01:14:51):
Alright, I will, we will check you guys next week and see
you on Discord.

Rebecca (01:14:58):
bye.

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