The millennials who ruined everything

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
elyssa (00:00):
it was like years later that it hit me all at once and I

(00:02):
was like, Rebecca was right.
That's exactly right.
Don't

jamie (00:04):
tell her that.
See?
Now, aw, look what you did.

elyssa (00:07):
God

jamie (00:07):
damn it.

elyssa (00:08):
See?

jamie (00:09):
Now she's happy.
She thinks she did somethinggood.
I'm Jamie.
And I'm Rebecca.
Welcome to the BurnoutCollective.
So this is episode 10, and whata perfect occasion for us to

(00:29):
bring on one of our favoritepeople, Elyssa.

elyssa (00:33):
You're my favorite people.
Elyssa is over at the WorldBuilders Book Club.
She also streams on Twitch.
Elyssa, you stream Fridays now?
Fridays at 4 p.
m.
Yes.
Mountain time.
So I think that's 3 Pacific.
3 p.
m.
Pacific.
Yep.
Thank you for joining us.
Thank you.
This was exciting.
I'm like
excited.
Elyssa originally pitched us onthis idea and we were super

(00:55):
excited to have her as our firstguest because she wanted to
discuss surviving unemploymentand searching for a job.
which I think a lot of us arecurrently either dealing with or
have times we're dealing withthat.
it could not be more perfecttime before we jump into it.
I just wanted to remind you thatwe have a discord.
Where we post job opportunitiesthat we're aware of, contract

(01:18):
opportunities we're aware of.
We just share back and forth,please feel free to join that.
if you need some extra supportin that search, please join us.

jamie (01:25):
if you've been already following us for a while on
Twitch, obviously thank you somuch for your support.
we would also appreciate afollow, follow slash subscribe
on, the different podcasts.
apps and also if you could leavea review or at least a star
rating, if you don't want toactually type words, which I

(01:47):
understand, though we wouldappreciate it, that would help
us a ton too.
All right.
Elyssa.
Thank you again for joining us.
do you just want to, jump rightin and talk to us about your
unemployment history and whereyou've been in the last few
months and what happened?

elyssa (02:01):
Yes.
basically I just recently got ajob and I started it and it's
going well, but before that Iwas unemployed for like a year
and a half.
And at the same time, my husbandhad also gotten laid off just a
few months before me.
it was really stressful.
and that was what I wanted totalk about was like what it was

(02:22):
like dealing with a prolongedperiod of unemployment,
especially when the job marketwas shitty.
And I think a lot of people arein that spot where like people
say, typically it takes aboutsix months to find a job.
It took me three times as long,like my husband's looking four
times as long and.
I think it's just like tough outthere and it's tough on you,

(02:43):
like emotionally and mentally.
do you want me to share mylayoff story?

jamie (02:47):
let's just go straight into the depressing shit.
that's how we do it here.

elyssa (02:50):
let's do it.
once upon a time, I worked for amegacorp.
And I don't know if that's theright or wrong way to say it,
but that's what I'm going tosay.
And, they had already had around of layoffs.
Going into the end of one yearand then at the beginning of
2023.
we just had a round of layoffs.
there was stress in the air.

(03:12):
And then in March, theyannounced that they were going
to have layoffs.
Two months from then and it waslike, they couldn't do the
changes that were necessary andkeep all of the organizational
changes under wraps.
They announced it, I think,because they knew people would
find out anyway.
I had to sit there and show upevery day doing my job, not
knowing if I did

jamie (03:32):
doing your job, though,

elyssa (03:33):
people who was getting laid off.
They just said.
It may happen or may not.
There is a round of layoffs.
They gave us an estimate of how,about how many people were going
to be impacted.
And we didn't know if our team,

jamie (03:46):
it was like, it could be you, it could be you.

elyssa (03:48):
Yes.
Yes.
It could be your team.
It could be, whatever.
And Oh, and then I had to showup and work.
And that was, did you work?

jamie (03:56):
Did you really work?

elyssa (03:57):
here's what I did.
I did enough that I wouldn'tfeel guilty if I didn't get laid
off, but I wouldn't feelresentful if I did.
That was my formula.
It was like, it's a nicebalance.
it was a good balance.
like I did work, but I was alsolike, I knew and it depends on
what you hear from uppermanagement, but I knew that like
these decisions were not goingto be made by anyone who knew me
and knew my work.

(04:18):
I just hung in there and thenfinally, like going back and
forth between maybe I hope I getlaid off.
Maybe that'd be nice.
I don't know.
But then also hoping I didn'tbecause obviously I was the sole
income owner.
And that would have beencomplicated.

jamie (04:32):
Complicated?
She says that would have beencomplicated.

elyssa (04:35):
I do have
to ask how the atmosphere atwork was.
did it get super backstabby?
Was everyone just fuck it?
Or did you guys come together?
I think everyone was mad at leadership.
that helped.
no, no one was reallycompetitive with each other
because we knew again, likethese decisions were like being

(04:57):
made at a level that anything wedid at that point, I don't know
that it would have had animpact.
Like when they were coming.
everyone just got mad atleadership, which I think makes
sense.
Cause a lot of times in thesesituations, you hear leadership
saying we made some bad calls,which we're taking
responsibility for them.
We're trying to fix it and getour backup, but the just
silliness.

(05:18):
And, and I think that's likefrustrating for people to hear
because they're like, I'mliterally not going to have a
job, be able to pay my bills.
You're going to be fine afterthese layoffs.
And it's they don't understandthat taking accountability
doesn't lessen the impact thatit has on people.
And it really isn't thatcomforting to be cool.
for taking responsibility formaking that decision.

(05:39):
Thanks for reminding me of thepower you hold here.
Yes.
No, no consequences for them atall.
Genuinely perplexed.
Some of us leadership seemedlike confused.
I was like, I don't know, maybestop trying to be a robot.
how was your mental health for

jamie (05:56):
those couple months?

elyssa (05:58):
It was okay.
It was, I feel like I honestlywent into my layoff, like in a
pretty good spot.
Chris and I were in a good spot.
We'd had a good few yearsfinancially.
And we were okay.
Like I knew we had the securitythat we would be okay, but I
just didn't expect like our jobsearch to last that long.
And that's why I was like, if Iget laid off, that's fine.

(06:20):
I'll look around, I'll find ajob.
It'll take a few months, maybe,but no big, and that was not
what happened.
Spoiler alert, which, but by thetime the layoffs came, I was
honestly, this has beenstressful.
I don't love how leadershiphandled this.
this sucks.
Like I was happy to go if thathappened and how they did it was
like, they shared the day wherethey're like, notices are going

(06:43):
out this day and they came outat six o'clock in the, no, I
think they were like six o'clockin the morning, Eastern time or
seven.
I got mine in my inbox at fiveo'clock in the morning.
And I woke up because I couldn'tsleep.
Obviously I woke up that morningand I opened like my work email.
And I was, it was like.

(07:04):
we are sorry to say that youhave been impacted by the
layoffs.
think of this as a chance foryour new adventure.

jamie (07:11):
That's Rebecca's,
that's Rebecca's favorite.

elyssa (07:16):
I just told Chris, my husband, I'm like, I went back
to sleep for a little bit, butit was like immediately it was,
everything was like turned off.
And I think they left my emailon I could email people, but
that was turned off by the endof the day.
She's you can read it and just Ilove it.
Like I've never used my email aday I worked there, but that's
where I'm going to be sendinglike all of my goodbyes on, I

(07:37):
don't know, but

jamie (07:40):
I would have also gone straight back to bed.
I would have been like,

elyssa (07:43):
not today.

jamie (07:45):
Good night.

elyssa (07:47):
I also knew because they had just had a round of layoffs.
I knew what their severancepackages were like, and again,
they were a mega core, they wereactually pretty good.
I think legally they had to givefor some people, they did this.
They had to give six weeksnotice.
I basically had six weeks fromwhen I got, my unemployment,
like the notice that I was goingto be laid off.

(08:07):
Like I was still on the payrollfor about six to eight more
weeks.
I don't remember.
And then I got a few months ofseverance after that.
I wasn't actually, eligible toclaim unemployment until that
was, like, that was done.
I was like, I will just take aminute, mentally and
emotionally, in general, I feellike.
the pandemic kind of set mywhole life on fire and it stayed
on fire and honestly I wasrelieved to be able to give my

(08:31):
personal life some moreattention work on my depression
house do more art like I gottensuper into watercolor
basically it was just likerecovering genuinely and it was
a demanding job, I feel likethere was much to process after
the pandemic, and I feel like Ifinally processed it, and now
there's like a whole othersteaming pile of garbage to
process,

jamie (08:50):
Do you feel like you were processing like work trauma in
general, or do you feel like youwere only processing what led up
to the layoffs?

elyssa (09:00):
I think I was a little harder hit by the layoffs than I
expected to be.
I think there's always like asense of things happening to you
that's really hard to deal with.
Like when you don't feel power,like you feel like It has outta
your control and power.

jamie (09:12):
'cause you can't do anything about it.
It's like,

elyssa (09:14):
how have you felt in your layoff?
Like

jamie (09:18):
how have you felt in your layoff?
I don't wanna, how are you doingin your layoff era you felt
during your layoff?
It's like layoff girl winter.
Just

elyssa (09:27):
It's your year.
Last year was mine.
You're in season now.

jamie (09:30):
I definitely feel, I was the same as you in that I was
very much I think even listeningto episode one when we were
pushing it to the podcast feeds,I think I even say I just need
two months off work, I need acouple months off work just to
get my shit together and justhonestly have a breather and
have a break and recover mymental health a little bit.

(09:53):
And it got to the point wherejust shit was bad.
And I was telling people closestto me, I wanted to get laid off.
I was like wanting to get laidoff.
it happened and there was likean initial.
sense of relief in a way.
But then immediately I was takendown because it's not it wasn't

(10:15):
like I just got laid off.
My entire team and a whole otherteam got laid off.
And with my team, very close tothis day, very close with those
people.
I knew some things that peoplewere going through and dealing
with just even in their personallives.
And, that was really hard.
That like brought me a littleback, back down to earth from
being like, I don't know, fromlike celebrating.

(10:38):
but I don't even know, Rebeccamaybe knows more than me.
I feel like it was like, a weekor two later where I was frozen.
You
were concerningly happy.
I was very relieved and I was like happy, but then, I feel
like after a couple weeks ofbeing laid off, then it started
to set in.
And I was like, oh this ishappening.

(11:01):
And
then I, yes it And then you justdisassociated a little bit.
A lot.
a lot.
I had a, like I had a period

elyssa (11:11):
of that for sure.
Rebecca, I made this on campusat three in the morning.
What do you think?

jamie (11:17):
Oh, wow.
she was like treating me like Iwas like her kindergartner.
it's really good.
Jamie pat me on the head.

elyssa (11:25):
okay, let's talk about how to survive unemployment
because this was hard for me.
And I'm actually just now likehaving a job again.
I'm like, oh, this is what it'slike to have structure in my
life because even though I have40 less hours a week, I feel
like I'm much more functionaland I hate that.
I hate that.
I don't like that.

(11:45):
I hate to admit that, but it'strue that I have not been able
to create anything more thanlike the most bare minimum
structure in my life when it'sjust me, like when I don't have
a job or whatever.
And that was really frustratingbecause, and I think that's
what's hard is like you have allthis extra time, but you like,
one, you're dealing with theemotional fallout of losing your

(12:07):
job and feeling really stressedand scared.
And then also too, you have abunch of lifestyle changes.
that was really frustrating waslike, even though I was
unemployed and I had all thistime, I was like, what am I
going to do?
I've gone on vacation.
The

jamie (12:21):
layoff vacation.
It's like a layoff moon.

elyssa (12:24):
I have two kids.

jamie (12:25):
you have two kids.

elyssa (12:26):
you just feel like you have to tighten the belt and
there's like fewer things thatyou can do.
And it's like hard sometimes,like I did have to change a lot
of what my thinking to get morefrugal because in a lot of ways
I was like the extra resource Ihad in my life Was money we had
enough that I could do thingslike hire a cleaner or get like
a meal delivery service to makelife a little more easy, easier

(12:48):
and doable.
And now it was like, it was justa very big, like shift.
And I tried to do it slowly.
again, cause I had some timebecause I had severance, which I
realized is like a very bigprivilege.
I really honestly want to keepit very grounded too.
If I know for most people, likewhat we're talking about would
be devastating.
And I do, that was somethingthat helped me was like, I'm

(13:09):
actually okay.
And it would, it's like a dickmove to myself to panic when I
don't need to.
That's not helpful.
But, anyway, it was just like anadjustment of lowering our costs
and making the changes needed towhere we could do that.
And then just like having nostructure.
It was a little chaotic.

(13:29):
So it's hard to use your time
the other thing that I think wealso talked about, when we were
putting together the outline waslike part of this layoff, you
said you'd had these,evaluations of yours at work
where it had been like 10, 000words of everything you do with
your job and basically that wasjust fucking fruitless because
it still happened anyway.
And.
I felt like I had to write like a case file of why I

(13:51):
should be, not be fired and orpromoted or no, I should,
shouldn't be fired, should bepromoted and given a raise.
And I was there for two yearsand I didn't get promoted and I
was like, bummer.
I don't know.
I felt like maybe I could havegotten one sooner, but it was
fine.
I wasn't like, I wasn't tryingto be salty about it, but it

(14:13):
happens sometimes, your bestefforts.
And, but the, that was hard too,because like when Chris had
gotten laid off, my husband hadgotten laid off at the beginning
of the year, like in January.
And it was literally, they hadtwo weeks where basically the
only thing people work on inthose two weeks is like planning
for their team and doing theseperformance reviews.

(14:36):
And it was like, I was likepulling numbers on everything I
did for the year.
I was like, Getting quotes frompeople for like good feedback
they've given me.
It was like putting together areport on my performance for the
year.
It was really exhausting.
And they did it twice a year.
I have never been in aperformance review process that
intensive.
It was nuts.

(14:56):
I did not enjoy that.
There was a lot of things abouthow the company ran that I
didn't enjoy.
And that was part of it too, islike when you're working in a
place where you feel like you'rehaving to prove yourself
leadership is making decisionsthat you don't agree with on the
business or the, values level.
It's really tough.
And it, It's almost
fatalistic to, have all of yourprogress or all your wins just

(15:18):
staring at you in the face andto be, like, let go anyway.
what is the fucking point?

jamie (15:22):
And I don't think I've ever, at any company I've worked
for, had an evaluation processThat has been beneficial to
anybody, ever.

elyssa (15:36):
No.
The one nice thing about it isit was detailed.
It was one of the few documentsI got to take with me when I
left.
And because it was detailed, itwas like, very easy to put the
stuff from that onto my resume.

jamie (15:48):
that is really cool.
I do like the

elyssa (15:49):
only benefit.
It's thanks for making me findthese numbers.
I appreciate it.

jamie (15:53):
And I always push too, because often, and maybe you
guys did it differently there,but often it's only, your
manager.
it's like your self evaluationand then your manager's
evaluation of you.
And I think that peer evals aregood if done the right way,
Because it's my manager mayfucking hate me, I work with

(16:14):
these teams.
And my team and my directreports every single day and
they love me and they can seewhat good job I'm doing and it's
I want that in there, even ifit's anonymous, even it's just
we know you work closely withthese six people on other teams
and your team, we're going tosend out a questionnaire.
and we'll get feedback backanonymously and, include that in

(16:38):
your email.
Rebecca's just smirking like shehates this.
I feel like there are too many,sorry, there are too many work
nemesis, nemesi, for that toeven be like an option for me.
but Rebecca
that's a you thing, okay?
That's a you thing.
Oh god.
Nemesi.

elyssa (16:58):
I love that.

jamie (16:59):
We're technology driven and document everything to
ensure blah blah blah eat abutthole.
basically.

elyssa (17:04):
We make data backed decisions.
Oh my goodness.
Have you ever been asked fordata to back up, your strategy
or your plan?
Oh, all the time.
I literally just put together aneditorial calendar today with
data and numbers and percentagesand she loves that.
I keep saying this.
She's sick.
No, I keep saying this, ifcollege aged me saw what I do

(17:25):
now, she would jump off thefucking bridge.
She'd be like, what are youdoing with your computer?

jamie (17:29):
She'd be like, what's the point?
What's the point?

elyssa (17:33):
It's especially funny when you're like, I shouldn't
have to get data, this is, weknow this.
But okay, I will.
But it makes the people who haveto do it.
Present the data, look good.
And the people, the otherpeople, and it's just, sorry,

(17:54):
no, I get it.
the job search, I was like, youknow what, I'm going to be laid
off, but that's okay.
I have a good severance package.
We have Our emergency savings,we all get unemployment.
Like it'll be fine.
We'll figure it out.
We're both looking for jobs.
One of us will find something.

jamie (18:11):
One of us is going to find something.

elyssa (18:12):
I know.
Which brings me to the currentjob market and how brutal it is.
Especially I think for peoplewho are like in the tech and
media, sectors, which I think iswhere most of like we, and most
of our peers are is they aretech.
Unemployment, depending whatstate you're in, is miserable.

(18:35):
there are some probably statesthat are more generous, but when
I was unemployed in Arizona, Ilike, I was capped out and then
the people who could get it, Ithink they were capped at Jamie.
What did it, was it like 200 aweek or something like that?
It was some ridiculously awfullow number in California.
It was something gross.

jamie (18:50):
in California it's capped at.
I think it's like 250 a week.
Wait, no, that's not right.
Okay.
No, that is right.
I have
to tell you, because it wasjust, it was like, they have
this and it's supposed to helpyou, but it's that's Okay.
the, the maximum is three 20.

(19:11):
Sorry.
it's three 20 a week.
Okay.
And I'm like, if you make toomuch, you can't even get that.
And it's what is, you're fuckedeither way.
It's just.
I think if you, I think if you make over the threshold,
though, I think that you, youall get the 320.
You know what I mean?

(19:34):
no, I was denied.
I'm glad you weren't denied,though.
sorry, that was, I didn't mean atangent, but it was just, No, it
is.
Oh, they didn't give you the maxamount.
I didn't get anything.
I was denied unemployment.
Oh, because I said I had madetoo much, which no.
and we just didn't get any atall.
But like the people who
is it because you had two incomes?

(19:55):
Maybe?
I think so.
still, I was just, I'm trying to figure that out.
Okay.
I just
sighed and went, eh, whatever.
no, Anyway, but like theunemployment, and again, I don't
know how it is in Utah, but doyou have to do the thing where
it's I applied to this job thisweek and

elyssa (20:10):
you have to
list all the activities.
And then if you're unemployed too long, they like
call you and they like, can we,they like had me upload my
resume and they like lookedthrough it.
And it was nice in some waysbecause it was validating of
okay, you are clearing, you'reclearing the bare minimum of
what a.
Resume should be, but I'm like,I didn't, I did suspect that I

(20:30):
would.
and I hope it was nice.
Cause she was like, it soundslike you're doing everything you
can.
All right, go ahead.
But.
It is awful, especially if youhave ADHD, just like remembering
to do it every week.
And if you don't, you like to

jamie (20:43):
certify every week for your benefits.

elyssa (20:46):
Yep.

jamie (20:46):
and the website sometimes doesn't work.
That's what's happening to me.
it's great.
Yes.
And especially during thepandemic, when they're like, No
one answered the phones and noneof the websites work and you
couldn't get a hold of anyperson and you couldn't go in
there person.
They're like, they just did notanswer the phones in Arizona.
It was insane.

elyssa (21:07):
Not fun.
and then just like looking forjobs again, I just expected to
find a job pretty quickly.
And I, Did get like pretty, Iwas probably getting a few
interviews a month, which wasmore than Chris, who like Chris
is a developer.
And I think that's just no one,it was a lot less people hiring.

(21:31):
No, they're just
hiring
people in India for
or they're like waiting to see the AI will work.
I don't know.
it's gross too.
Cause I'm like, we just paythem, nothing.
And we get this whole team andit's unethical.
And it's
just, I feel like the same thing is happening to
writers and editors.
They're like getting replaced byone person in AI, it's that.

(21:52):
there's literally job posts Isee hiring editors to edit AI
content.

jamie (21:59):
What?
I'm gonna have to start applyingfor some of those guys.
I've been avoiding them, but Ithink eventually I'm gonna have
to start applying for the AIjobs.
It's hey, can you please editand train this AI to be like a
human writer and editor?
I'm like, I sure can, John.
Here I come.
Do
you internalize those likeinterviews to Elyssa?

(22:20):
did you internalize if youdidn't get the job or if it.
If you felt it didn't go well,or if they didn't bring you in,
was it hard

elyssa (22:26):
to be like, it's okay, next time?
I think it was hardest, for thefirst few months that I started
actively looking.
once my severance ran out, Istarted looking and claiming,
but I did, enough to claim myunemployment.
I was like, that's good enough.
Literally by law, it's goodenough.
and then I was like, at thebeginning of 2024, I started
looking more in earnest, but itwas because I hadn't gotten
results.

(22:46):
And I think that was what washard was like, I wasn't getting
results.
And then I'd do a little extra.
I was like, turn it up 10%.
And I'd be like, okay, that'sfine.
I'll just try a little harder.
And then another month wouldpass getting no results in terms
of getting interviews, but notgetting results.
And in terms of a job offer andI'd be like, okay, I don't know
what I'm doing, but I'll turn itup more.

(23:08):
And then there's those likeinevitable periods where I like,
I wouldn't hear anything forfour weeks and then I'd be
panicking.
And then it's just up and down.
And the worst part is you'repanicking and waiting for that.
And they could not give a shitwhen they get that.
Like for you, it's an emergencyand urgent for them.
It's just another fucking thing.
They have to cross off theirlist and they put on the back

(23:30):
burner until they are actuallyforced to do it.
I don't
even know.
I, I had other times wherethey're like, we're hiring
urgently.
We really want to get you in.
And I'm like, great.
That works for me.
And then I didn't hear from themfor four weeks.
And when I finally did, they'relike, we'll put the position on
hold.
We might be hiring in twomonths.
And even when I followed up twomonths later, which I'm like, I
hope I have a job by then.

(23:50):
I didn't there.
They didn't respond, it's justit was discouraging and it was
just, again, it was justcompletely different than every
other job search I've had in mycareer.
maybe like the only time thatwas comparable was like to when
I graduated college in 2010,2011, which was still just a
couple years after therecession.

(24:10):
And, I didn't have experience.
I was applying for like entrylevel jobs and I had such a hard
time getting a job then too.
That was the only other timethat like I'd experienced
anything like it.
It was.
Rough, and it was rough to comefrom like a megacorp that looked
really good on my resume and tofeel like I had made some like
compromises with myself to staythere and then I get laid off

(24:32):
thinking it'll be good for myresume and then it wasn't and I
was just like, okay, I see.
And I think that's like a hardlesson.
We just learned sometimes inlife of you can go for something
that looks like success onpaper, but it's once you get it,
it's.
You're like, that was a shitshow, actually, and, I don't
feel successful despite that.
Oh, it was weird.

jamie (24:53):
I know

elyssa (24:53):
it was.
It was rough.

jamie (24:56):
No, I was just going to say, I know, like when we were
talking about this briefly, likejust earlier this week, you had
said.
For the first time in yourcareer, for the first time in
all the job searching you'vedone ever, you were really
feeling like you had to beperfect, like everything had to
be perfect.
And it wasn't until like yousaid that, but like obviously

(25:17):
that really resonated with me,because now I'm bringing it up.
But, It really does feel likethat.
And I think, thankfully, I havebeen laid off before, but
thankfully, I've, I think I tookfor granted that, I have, I, I
do have a lot of connections andI, would get scooped up right
away if, a company was sold orif I got laid off.

(25:37):
And then, this time, though, itjust seems to.
not matter, and it just feels ifI don't have the perfect resume,
if I don't have the perfect,screening call with the
recruiter, and if I don't havethe perfect panel interview for,
these, three to five people I'minterviewing with, that I'm just

(26:00):
not gonna have a chance.

elyssa (26:02):
and for me, it went even beyond the quality of what, of
like how a, how I'm able to showI'm a good candidate.
It was like literally how soonafter the job application opens,
do I, am I able to like actuallysend an application in?
I realized that mattered a lot.
Like the jobs I got interviewsfor were the ones that I applied
like the same day that it openedor like the next day.

(26:22):
It could be the perfect fit foryou, but if you're not sitting
perched on wherever they'reposting it, you're fucked.

jamie (26:30):
you can set up job alerts, but you're not
necessarily going to geteverything.
And we talked about thispreviously, too.
I'm seeing job postings that arelike posted 18 hours ago, and
they're already closed toapplications.
So it's do we get a break here?
I know many people are lookingfor jobs right now, but
honestly, this is, that'sfucking ridiculous.

(26:53):
and I'm not getting, I'm likenot getting anything from
anybody hardly.
I've had a few callbacks and acouple of like interviews, but
nothing major.
And sometimes I just don't hearback at all.
Even if I follow up.
Which is fucking rude.
It is.
It's really rude.
That's what I was going to say.
please, if you're a hiringmanager, even if your company is

(27:15):
bad about getting back to peoplethrough the, hiring process,
please make sure that you'regetting back to the people that
you can to like, let them knowthat either, the position is
closed or you decided to go withsomebody else.
nobody likes sending thoseemails, but.
I.
We need, we need that.

(27:35):
people who are searching forjobs, close that loop for us, if
you will.
it's really easy to forget that,desperation feeling when you've
been employed.
And I think people don't putenough thought into remembering
that actual people who needthese jobs are applying.

elyssa (27:52):
it is just that weird feeling too of like it's just
it's just very it's veryconfusing because I probably was
a little more like Jamie wherelike I had good connections and
I think when you have goodconnections and you do good work
that's usually enough it shouldbe enough it should be enough
but like in this economy it'snothing and that sucks it sucks

(28:17):
when a job in

jamie (28:19):
this economy

elyssa (28:20):
and it stops when what usually is good enough It stops
being good enough and the bar israised.
this is just what it is to be inlike a hires market is.
To know that it does just favorpeople who are hiring workers,
that employers can be pickier,they can take longer.
I've also heard a lot of, that alot of job postings are just
vanity postings.
They're not even positions.

(28:41):
They just, they're there to makethe company look successful to
investors or whoever.
We had the last company I wasat, we had all they're still up
to.
It's just like these.
And I would get tons ofapplications and tons of emails.
We had no intention to hire anyof those people, but we just
wanted to get their informationand either.
Apparently judged the shit outof them or put them in our

(29:02):
little file for later.
Like it was just gross and weirdand it gave people all this
weird fake hope.
and that's frustrating is like I would see a lot of job
postings that i'm like This isliterally a perfect fit for me
and i'd write a little coverletter and I do my resume I do
the whole thing and just nothear anything and that was super
confusing and There's it wasjust hard it was hard and Like

(29:28):
to Jamie said, I just felt likeI was having to prove myself all
the time.
And I think it does feel like Ifelt a bit mad and put upon, I
think like when you get 15 yearsinto your career, you want to
feel like, yes, I shouldn't haveto still be earning my place.
You know what I mean?
earning my position.

(29:48):
Like I, I know I can do thework.
I've literally proved it for 15years.
And it's frustrating to feel.
you can't get people to give youthe time of day, and it feels
really invalidating.
It was hard not to personalizeit and feel like it was
invalidating of my skills andwhat I could offer.
And to not take it personally.

(30:09):
I think on some levels, it alsojust hit me.
it's a little humiliating,honestly, to just put yourself
out there to judge, and then tobe rejected, and put yourself
out there to judge, and then tobe rejected, It's hard to, it's
worse

jamie (30:22):
than being on a dating app.
Like it's worse.
there is bias there.
Like it, they don't like, Idon't know.
They don't like your fuckingface.
They don't like that one thingyou said one time.
They don't like that.
what they're, they can have themost quote unbiased hiring
process in the world.
It's a person doing the hiring,doing the interview.
There's always going to be likethis
bitch likes the Oxford comma a little too much.

(30:45):
Yes.
they have to figure, you have tofigure out how to game the
system and game them, and it'sjust, you can't be yourself, but
you don't feel
genuine, it's I want to be myself and be genuine,
because those are the kind ofpeople I want to work for, is
somebody who's going to hiregenuine me,
But not too genuine.

elyssa (31:03):
For me, a lot of what it was for a while was like, this
is something I sat in therapy.
Let's just talk about what Italked with my therapist about
for the little bit that I hadhealth insurance while I was
unemployed.
but we talked about likebasically how to not personalize
it.
And one of the strategies that Iused was actually defining, what
is good enough when it comes tomy job search and it changed

(31:25):
because I was constantly,experimenting and part of the
thing that was hard was that,what I felt should be good
enough was not in reality goodenough to get me results.
And that was frustrating becauseI think that's where the
perfectionism comes in, whereyou're like, you keep raising
the bar and raising the bar andit's you're not getting results
and that's discouraging.
but then I just, I experimentedover time and where I got to was

(31:47):
like good enough was applyingfor basically what, like
whatever random jobs that Icould apply for easily with a
standard cover letter.
And then maybe spending two tothree hours a day like crafting
jobs specifically for the ones Ithought would be the easiest.
I was the best fit for and Ispent more time on jobs that I
thought were like a really goodfit for me and just tried to be

(32:08):
strategic.
I don't know, again, it took mea long time to find a job and
that was hard.
You said something reallyprofound yesterday.
It was like you, you had toadmit to yourself that you
weren't above being like in thisposition.
Is that
yes, I don't want to, I feel like that sounds weird.

(32:29):
No, and I'm sorry.
I didn't mean to make it soundbad.
no.
It's not bad.
It's I felt embarrassed when Irealized.
I was like, for me to think thaton some level, I must think I
am, like, above this.
But I don't think it's an abovethis.
I think it's one of those thingsthat whenever there's something
hard, you just don't reallythink about it that much until
it happens to you, And then it'shappening to you, and you're
like, Where is this coming from?

(32:51):
And the answer is where it'scoming from is like life and it
does just happen.
And often I would go into thequestion of like, why did this
happen to me?
And the answer I usually came upwith was that I failed in some
way.
And the more correct answer waslike, this just happens to
people, whether they're capableor not, whether they're

(33:12):
successful for a certain amountof time.
The economy just goes to shitand people lose their jobs
sometimes.
And it doesn't mean anythingabout those people.
And, it helped me to think aboutlike, how would I view a friend
who had gone through a job lossand I knew she was working
really hard and maybe she feltlike it wasn't enough.
And sure.
There's a couple of things thatshe could work on, but overall
she is doing good enough and sheshould be able to find a job

(33:33):
with the effort she's puttingin.
It was like, I had to look atmyself as a, the way I would
have friend to like, not be hardon myself.
it's
also
part of your identity too.
I mean who you are and theyalways say like you're not your
job, but 15 years into yourcareer part of you is it you are
your job.

(33:54):
You're enough.
that rejection is almost like apersonal reject.
it's almost, it's hard not totake it personally.
Yes.
I feel the time that like, Itook things more personally.
So at the beginning of thepandemic, I was freelancing and
I lost out, like all of myfreelance work went away
overnight for a few months.
It came back, but I know that alot of our freelance friends are

(34:17):
also in that same position,people looking for jobs, and I
remember feeling so, Like in away that I didn't when I lost my
job and maybe it was cause I'dalready worked through it with
that earlier experience.
But it was like, I felt likeovernight, my career went away.
This thing I spent years andyears building could be
dismantled overnight bysomething completely out of my
control.

(34:37):
And that's very,

jamie (34:42):
go on.
We literally watched our entireCohort of friends and co former
co workers.
it's
happening now.

elyssa (34:51):
to give context like google changed their algorithm
and it's completely changed thelandscape of like content In a
way that companies are losingviews.
They're losing money and they'relaying a bunch of people off,
right?
And
they're refusing to usefreelancers now.

jamie (35:06):
which for real Big company is stopping using
freelancers and it's yep.

elyssa (35:15):
Also I hate that because When you talked about, a lot of
the healing that I did in myrelationship to work, I did at
the company we worked together.
There was, like, a to a kind oftoxic situation that I ended up
in that I had to work that, putme in therapy, and I had to work
through it.
But that was extremely Lookingback, I'm like, I'm glad that I

(35:36):
went to therapy.
I really needed it at that time.
it was like, I'm glad.
I'm
not going to mince words.
What happened was that yourcreativity was actively stifled
every fucking day.
And I watched you grapple withthat every day because you were
bringing an authenticity to yourwork and we're being shit on
every day.

jamie (35:55):
They wanted you to be an AI robot.
that's

elyssa (35:59):
validating.
That's validating.
and you and I would have theselike conversations and I'm like,
Elyssa, this is not your, thisis not your soul work.
This is not like they don'tappreciate it.
And just
I think I taught.
And I think that I talked aboutthis in my last episode of world
builders book club of I think Idid have that issue for a while
where I didn't really know whatmy job was for.
I ha it just became everything.

(36:20):
It became my identity.
It became my, what I did.
it became who I was, like, itjust, there were no boundaries
around it.
It spilled over into my personallife, into my parenting, it was
unhealthy and I became just, itwas my job and I needed to
unlearn that.
And part of that was likelearning what place does my job
have in my life?

(36:40):
And like over years, like fiveplus years learning to hold
those boundaries.
And if it gets beyond that'shard.
That's really

jamie (36:48):
fucking hard to do
hard.
Job boundaries.
it's easy to say set boundarieswith your work, but actually
it's fucking difficult to put itinto practice in place.

elyssa (36:58):
And it feels scary.
it's scary.
And also it's
well, and nobody goes into the workplace with these
skills.
I remember right now, they'relike, people are like, oh,
there's a, everyone's hiring GenZ and firing them because
they're not doing a good job atwork.
But I remember having my firstjob out of college, and I had a,
probably had ADHD, but Iremember crawling out of my
skin, I have to sit in this onespot for eight hours a day,

(37:20):
after
going to class, and then go to my next It was different
and it was actually a very hardadjustment for me.
And I wish I'd had someone tolike coach and mentor me.
Or there were times where I gottoo emotional at work because I
was invested and over identifiedwith my job.
and then people didn't like whenI got emotional at work and I
got passionate and I argued withthem about stuff, which like, I

(37:40):
get, I probably did againbecause I didn't have good
boundaries.
I don't actually think I handledthose conversations well all the
time.
that's what it really helped waslike putting my job in its
place.
It helped me have a healthierrelationship to my job, but it
also helped me manage my, likemy job in a way that was like,
people responded to betterbecause I wasn't invested.

(38:02):
But I also have to say Gen Z ismuch healthier.
Like they are much healthierwith your work boundaries and I
applaud them.
Like they're like, I'm notworking for fucking free.
9 2 5 and I will take an hourfor lunch and you will pay me
and it's just like they aregirls in a way Different from
the anxious Millennials who havebeen told that we've ruined

(38:24):
everything from the workplace tofucking paper napkins to
whatever else We fucking ruinedlike I applaud their work
Honestly,

jamie (38:33):
but I and I was just gonna say, I think, though, one
of the bigger problems here isI, Elyssa, was, I don't think
you meant to touch on it, butyou did, at least you sparked it
for me, is leadership andmentorship, especially when you
are first Joining the workforce

elyssa (38:52):
and having appropriate workloads and support.
Leadership.

jamie (38:57):
I think I literally think like that I can a hundred
thousand percent contribute theshittiness and like the missteps
that happened, both that, maybeI did or someone else did in my
early career to just be.
Shit leadership and that doesn'tnecessarily mean sometimes it
yes it did mean people that weremanagers and leaders that should

(39:19):
not have been yes it does meanthat sometimes and it did, but
it also meant people who aremanagers and leaders who are
like brand new to it.
And they weren't given the toolsor the training or the coaching
or the mentorship themselves tobe able to be a great leader and
be a great manager.
I think there's maybe onecompany I ever worked for.

(39:39):
I don't even think they wentthrough with it, but they
discussed, having a mentorshipleadership program for the
managers and doing like maybesome manager trainings and I
know we can all be like, I don'tneed manager training, whatever.
But I would 1000 percent gobecause I think that's important
for everybody to have that'sgoing to be in a leadership
position.

(40:00):
And, Not making excuses, becauselike I said, yes, it was a lot
of times just shit people whowere put in management roles
that should never be managers tothis day.
But some of it too was just likenot having the tools and not
having been mentored themselves.

elyssa (40:16):
that lack of support trickles down too.
Where if they're not being giventhe tools and the time to
appropriately do their job orthe like.
I sign off with you, you do yourstrategy your way, or whatever.
They're not being powered to dotheir job.
They're not going to be able toturn around and empower their
team to do their jobs.
And to understand like how tounblock them, how to give them
appropriate training, how tofigure out when they need

(40:38):
training, like how to evenfigure out what the problem is.
Like I just literally, Iremember, okay.
Do you remember?
It's fine.
I remember I, like at thecompany we were at, I remember
sitting in a meeting with mymanager and I, and it was a
remote company.
And I suggested, I was like, Ithink everyone's working
overtime and you don't know.

(40:58):
And, or I had heard from peoplethat they were working a lot.
And I said, I think everyone'sworking a lot.
I was like, I should, and Isaid, I should be able to do my
work in 40 hours a week.
And currently I can't.
And the workload was insane atthat point.
It was too high.
And I said this and she waslike, I don't think that's true.
And I'm like, listen, I know.
I was like, okay, listen, Iguess I've heard from people

(41:19):
that they're feeling likethey're in the same boat as me,
I don't know for sure, but Ithink you it's worth
investigating and I think youshould figure that out.
And I like made us a couple ofsuggestions.

jamie (41:29):
As per my last email is what Elyssa.

elyssa (41:32):
And it's, it's frustrating to feel like you do
have to manage up, but it is agood, it's a better skill than
like just having to, I'm glad bythat point I had the skill to
like.
Assert myself and be like, thisis an unreasonable workload.
Even that was a skill I had tolearn on the job after dealing
with a lot of workloads thatweren't good.
The worst part
is you were right.

(41:53):
That's the worst part.
you were right.
Like we were tracking everyone'soutput and if they didn't hit a
certain, then it's like theproblem child.
like you were a hundred percentcorrect.
And you're just being fuckinggaslit into the, I like, I don't
know what you're talking about.
No, I write.
I don't know.
I was right.
I'll take it.
it's just, anyway, I forgot whatI was going to say, but

(42:18):
workloads, crazy.
Just people deserve to besupported.
And I just, sometimes you dohave to slow down.
And put the support in place,put the, sometimes you do have
to slow down to be able toactually do good work.
It is worth it.
I, and I'm, it's justdiscouraging when you know what
you need to do your work andlike leadership won't listen.
I think that was what you saidis it really does come back to

(42:39):
leadership.
if they don't listen and you're,what can, what more can you do
there?
They ultimately, and that suckstoo, of being a manager, being
the position where like you havea lot of responsibility for your
team, but you don't have theauthority to actually get them
what they need.
So we were going to talk aboutjob applications and Elyssa's
super fun job application tips.

(43:02):
I think one, one is decide what's enough, hold
yourself to that.
Like genuinely put in a goodeffort, but don't be too hard.
Don't like, once you do that, ifyou did that much and it's not
getting results, don't beatyourself up.
That is my number one thing isjust be kind to yourself.
Your job search is going to be awhile.
And the number one thing itcould be take a while and like

(43:23):
protecting your sanity.
is really important.
And also protecting like yourself respect, your good opinion
of yourself.
there were a couple of timesthat like, I would take a break
from searching for jobs for aweek or two.
So if you need to do stuff likethat, like it's okay to go hard
or some weeks and then not muchon others.

(43:43):
And also expect periods where,again, you'll be hearing back,
more often, and then other timeswhere you won't hear anything.
that's just how it goes.
It's normal.
You're not doing anything wrong.
It's just that hard.
That's, my biggest thing.
And then I also kind ofidentified, like, types of jobs
I wanted to apply for.
like, technical writing jobs,which was related to my most

(44:04):
recent job, as well as editorialwriting and then, like marketing
and SEO writing.
And then I tailored like aspecific resume slash cover
letter template for each.
And it took me like months toput this together.
Like I didn't put this togetherall at once.
I gave myself a while to puteverything out.
Like I was like, I used the sameresume for a while until I had

(44:24):
these.
and then I also built out like aportfolio with work examples,
that aligned with each of thosetopics as well.
And that was really helpfulbecause, I felt like I had to
cast a wider net than I normallywould and apply for like jobs.
that I was like, I know I coulddo this job, but can I get the
hiring manager to believe Icould do this job?

(44:45):
that's always the Do you have

jamie (44:47):
the clips to, back it up too, to show them, hey, I've
done, I have experience in this.

elyssa (44:51):
Yes.
Or can I, for example, withtechnical writing, it's a lot
of, walking people throughprocesses.
after a while, I was like, oh,that's What I did with a lot of
my personal finance writing waslike,

jamie (45:02):
in

elyssa (45:03):
a very simple way, or walking people through a process
of how to fill out a loan orfind their credit report.
So like making those connectionsis really important and talking
about it.
that's one thing.
And another thing is to tap yournetwork.
Jamie and Rebecca have been.
Incredible.
It's us.

(45:23):
We're your network.
Yes.

jamie (45:24):
Dear listeners.

elyssa (45:25):
You are my network.
this is us.
Come to the burnout collective.
if you don't have a network, ifyou don't have support.
Join us on the Discord, we getit.
We'll be here.
I think that's an importantpoint, though, because
sometimes, you don't always getto decide.
When you get laid off, it's notalways at the most convenient
time.
And there have been times wheremy support system and network
has been in shambles, or I wasdepressed and self isolating and

(45:47):
I didn't talk to anybody in along time.
And that might've been a littlebit, or it was when I was laid
off or like I had been so busyworking that I had fallen out of
touch with a lot of people.
I also had been in a slightly,like I'd been gone for personal
finance, writing to tech all thetime.
writing.
And so I wasn't in the samespace, like work, like industry

(46:07):
space even.
So I know a lot of people, itlooks like I like disappeared
off the planet, but when I likeposted on LinkedIn sharing that
I'd gotten laid off and thenevery couple of months I would
not every couple of months, butevery few months I would post
Hey, still looking.
here's what I'm looking for.
Like trying to be more specific.
that's important.
And I did get some leads forreally good leads from that
actually.

(46:29):
and having a referral is great.
If you don't have a referral, alot of times I'd look at a
hiring company and I'd see if Ihave any connections and even if
there are people who like I knewbecause I met them online or
like we talked on Twitter, Istill would reach out and say,
Hey, would you mind if I use youas a referral?
Because a lot of times theywould say yes.

jamie (46:48):
I was thinking this all throughout, your journey that
you shared with us, how justisolating and how alone you can
feel just doing a job searchperiod, like whether or not you
got laid off, whether or not youare living with a partner and
kids, whether or not you have avery supportive group of friends
or colleagues, or family, it'son you, so it can still feel

(47:12):
like isolating, and that can geta little bit depressing, I
think.
you're just like, it's all up toyou, whether you get a job, it's
on you.
And everyone wants to know howit's going, and when it's not
going, you're like, I justreally don't want to talk about
it, and you know they're tryingto be nice.
But also I don't want to talkabout it

elyssa (47:34):
or or like sometimes you're like, oh I have to talk
about it I have to ask for helpor I have to be honest like I'm
struggling or like I you know, Igot to the point where that was
the reality where I was like ifso by the time I got my job It
was if we if I hadn't foundsomething by the beginning of
this year like just the pastmonth we probably would have

(47:56):
taught had to talk about YouLike making some tough
decisions.
do we start planning to move andsell our house?
Do we pull some money out ofretirement accounts?
what do we do?
and fortunately I got this job,but don't feel like a failure.
If you're in those positionswhere you're like making really
hard choices, it's.
Sometimes that's just what youhave to do.
And it like sucked.
It sucked to empty my savingsaccount.

(48:19):
It sucked to dip in like we diddip into some investments to try
and just have to cover bills.
It was just a very long timethat we were without like a full
time income.
And.
It's hard.
It's hard to, build a securityor to not have security and then
to have to, figure out how tomake this work.
Sometimes I still, think about,like, how much of our net worth

(48:41):
just being unemployed for a longtime, lost us, or, the missed
earnings, the opportunity costsof being unemployed.
Oh, And again, maybe this isjust because, we work in the
personal finance space, it's,it's infiltrated my brain in a
way I cannot undo.
but it's hard not to keep thatkind of mental math.
that's actually something I'mworking on is not doing that as
much because do I need to hold agrudge against myself for all

(49:02):
the money I've cost myself?
Oh, yourself?
No.
for other people.
Yes.
Yes, I will.
I will hold a grudge about howmuch money you cost me.
For myself, I forgive.
Graciously.

jamie (49:12):
Rebecca, just for you, not me, just you.
yeah, you, I will blame you.
She has a ledger.
But that self love though, likeI think therapy, just as someone
who's been there as well.
Around this roughly around thesame time like learning how to
be kind to yourself is hard.
It's very difficult, especiallywhen you're having trouble
untangling yourself and your job

(49:34):
self and the imposter syndrome.
That's something I was going tobring up is Oh, God.
Oh, my God.
That is what I was not preparedfor is the fucking insanity.
I think last time I got laidoff.
I was lucky enough to get a jobvery quickly.
I don't think I had time forthat really to set in, but
literally it's just like everyday now, like every week I'm

(49:55):
just like, am I good at this?
At what I've been doing foralmost 15 years?

elyssa (50:00):
Yes.
This is where I like would keeptrack of my wins.
So If I got an interview, hellyeah, that's a good signal.
If I passed a writing or editingtest, even if I didn't get a job
offer, I'd be like, I know mywork's good.
it was good enough to move on.
it is important, even if it'snot a final job offer, you're
hired.

(50:21):
Celebrate every step of the waythat you make it further because
it is, these are signals thatyou are on the right track and
that you're doing good stuff.
if you're not getting that, itmight be time to, like, analyze,
strategize.

jamie (50:32):
I'm just ready for Elyssa to be, like, my, career coach.

elyssa (50:36):
You know I would.
I would, you've been, this wassomething I mentioned was, like,
the importance of, askingfriends.
You can ask friends to, look atyour resume and career coach
you.
They will do it.
I would do it, Jamie.

jamie (50:49):
Rebecca charges, though, you guys.
just keep that in mind.

elyssa (50:52):
For Jamie.
For friends.

jamie (50:54):
Do you, I just winked at you.
I just I'm not looking.
No, I know.
I'm just, I'm mad at myself thatI just winked at you.
It was horrible.
Please.
Let's not.
I was like, okay, we're done.
how did you weigh those winswhile still not like getting
something and the kind offeeling of desperation, we're
like, fuck it.
I will apply for just anything.
And also I might be looking atmy feet now to see how

(51:16):
photogenic they are.
Like, how do you balance that?

elyssa (51:19):
I think this is where you have to really cultivate
your inner Badass motherfucker alittle bit, you know that part
of you that knows that you'rethe shit and knows that you got
it Like and it gets mad when Pyou get rejected like that's
actually okay and healthy if youhave to lean into that you don't
go into beating yourself up doit Oh, what's it like a spark?

(51:43):
Yes, it is.
It is.
y'all

jamie (51:45):
are therapy nerds

elyssa (51:48):
okay, You asked me like what are some resources that I
had that helped me and therewere a couple but they're like
specific and they were they'remore specific to what I was
dealing But one was the book seea complex PTSD from surviving to
thriving by Pete Walker.
It's a very intense book maybeif you have a trauma history go
through it with a therapist, butIt would it really helped me Get

(52:14):
back to a place where I feltLike it, a lot of the effort I
was doing was like called innerreparenting and basically
learning how to be an adult.
learning how to have that on theside.
And to the point where likesometimes I would notice I was
like applying for jobs andfeeling really like scared or
frustrated and it was almostlike a younger part of me who

(52:35):
wasn't an adult was like sittingthere feeling scared because
she's I'm only eight, I don'tknow how to do this shit.
Like I don't know how to write acover letter.
I don't know how to do, And thatsounds like hyperbole, but it's
almost literally what'shappening.
I've literally said, where arethe adults?
I don't want to be the adult.
I wish there was an adult incharge.
I can't be the adult.
Like you literally say it.
And slowly what I learned to dowas to recognize that you can

(52:59):
just coach yourself into backinto adulthood a little bit,
where you can say, let's groundourselves in today.
I'm 35, not eight.
I have much life experience.
she's 35.
young.
I am just like you.
Baby.
young, but like I'm 35, I havemuch life experience and little
eight year old part of me.

(53:20):
I know you can't do this.
Of course you can't, you're justa kid and this is a big adult
job.
why don't you like take a stepback, go off, play some video,
go video games, color orsomething.
And if you can do that, thatwill create enough space for me
to be here.
as an adult doing these thingsand just learning like different
ways to feel a little bit moreempowered and remind myself

(53:44):
like, yes, I am 35 and yes, justbecause I'm not getting results
that I'd still know what I'mdoing.
And I'm not trying to speak foryou, but you're also taking care
of that, like you're also takingcare of eight year old self you
at the same time by tapping intoyour creativity and doing your
art and giving them something todo and take away that fear.

(54:05):
and I think this is where I said earlier about my
frustration about how like.
I was unemployed, but it waslike, where, how do I create
enough structure that I'm doingwhat I want to be doing?
Because I've gotten super backinto watercoloring.
when I got laid off, I'd beendoing it for a year.
I loved it.
I was obsessed.
And that had also helped melike, really learn to sit with

(54:27):
myself because when you'resitting there painting, your
brain's just talking to you thewhole time.
Yes.
And It's going to tell you if it thinks of what you're
doing stupid and you have tofigure out like, do I stop
painting or do I be like, that'snot stupid.
I love this.
That's cute.
Whatever.
so I think having a creativepractice and outlet helps a lot,
but I also think.
I was reminded of this.

(54:48):
I had a conversation with Ruth,our friend, Ruth, Jamie.
Jamie and I met at one companyand then we worked at another
company together.
That's where we both metRebecca.
But our friend Ruth was at thatfirst company.
And I remember one time we werelike at lunch on break from
work.
And she was really frustratedbecause that workplace was such
a nightmare.

(55:08):
And I remember she was like, howdo you stay unaffected?
And I was like, I looked at herand I was like, here's where
I've had to get is like thisplace.
It's just a job.
It's not my whole identity.
And I leave every day and I gohome and I have a whole life
outside of this place.
And I don't want to take it withme.
I want this place to stay there.
And I don't want it to get 40more hours of my life a week.

(55:30):
Then it deserves because itdoesn't deserve that the people
I love in my life deserve that Ideserve to get the best of me
more than my job.
And I think it's really healthyto carry that same sort of
attitude into applying for a jobtoo, of my job search has its
place.
And obviously I need to begiving it appropriate attention,
I noticed when I started feelingreally overwhelmed, I would say

(55:52):
things like, my life feelsunmanageable, I'm overwhelmed,
like there's too much to do.
And I was just like, what makesmy life feel manageable is
seeing me in the driver's seatmanaging it.
So what is enough that I feellike I'm managing stuff, but
also I'm not making myself crazyand I'm not like, making my job
search the only thing I'm everdoing.
I think it's healthy to look forother things you can do.

(56:15):
I started taking, I did investin my art, like there were a
couple of areas that I knew Iwanted to improve, I took
classes about that specifically,and I like made more time to see
my friends, which was nice.
You were filling your cup up,
like you were filling your cup.
Yes.
And when I did finish my jobsearch, I would like, leave it

(56:36):
behind and go do other stuff.
I wouldn't, I would try not togo into whatever I was doing
next, whether it was washing thedishes or picking my kids up
from school or going to coffeewith our friend, I tried to go
into that, like not carryingthat into, just leave it at my
desk, just like you would a job.

jamie (56:53):
That's, that makes a lot of sense.
That makes a lot of sense.
That's hard to do.
I like, I get it and I know, butit's hard to do.
I will tell my Work boundaries.
I will tell like my friends allday long about like boundaries
and work life balance and don'tdo that.
They don't deserve it.
They don't give, they don't givea shit about you.
But then it's like when it comesto me.

elyssa (57:17):
I think detaching out of anger is a really good strategy.
If you can't detach, Withoutgetting angry, get angry and
then be like, fuck this.
I don't have to let this run mylife.
Detach out of anger if you haveto.
Jamie, I can help you with thatlater.
in
reparenting myself too, I want to say, cause this, these

(57:38):
two sentences like unlocked mywhole life.
Inner mothering is, creatingexperiences that nurture a
belief that life is a gift.
Creating experiences thatnurture your belief that life is
a gift.
That's mothering yourself well.
And then fathering yourself wellis being fiercely self

(57:59):
protective.
those things together, beingfiercely self protective for me
meant, standing up for myselfand saying, no, I'm awesome and
I'm not going to sit here andpretend I'm not.
I'm not going to diminish myselfjust because I'm in a tough
situation.
That's not going to helpanything.
And then the intermothering is,this is a really shitty
situation and I deserve everybit of support and care that I
can get to help me get throughit.

(58:21):
Yes.
that's true.
And that's from the Pete Walker book.
So I did.
But I bought that by the way,yesterday.
I bought it on audiobooks.
I can just pause and cry.
wait, which

jamie (58:32):
one is this?
The cats are killing you.

elyssa (58:35):
Complex PTSD from surviving.
Oh, it's that one.
The way he explains things isjust great.
He also talks about the outercritic in the book.
were you going to say somethingthough?
No, I was looking for my copy ofthe illustrated guide of parts
work.
But the, I had that one toillustrate those pictures.

(58:55):
It was like the
workbook.
I forget what it's called.
Anyway, that one was also superhelpful.
So if you're the kind of person who feels like you're
always like arguing withyourself or like you're
disorganized, you're like, Idon't even know what I want or I
don't even know how to moveforward.
Like parse work was somethingthat really helped me get
organized and understand, ofcourse, there's a bunch of,
there's a, there's severaldifferent ways I could handle

(59:16):
this.
And there's all these aspects ofme that each think this is the
right way.
No, this is the right way.
And.
Being able to like respond toyourself with more kindness and
I don't know, it's helped me alot.

rebecca (59:31):
No,

elyssa (59:31):
I love it.
There's another thing that Ilike from the Pete Walker book,
he talks about having an outercritic and just like we have an
outer critic that says likewe're bad.
Or sorry, an inner critic thatsays we're bad, the outer critic
says the world is bad and Ithink that's very easy to get
into when you are unemployed andthe economy is shit.

rebecca (59:50):
Yes.
Absolutely.

elyssa (59:53):
that was helpful for me because it's that is true, but I
also wanted to change my beliefsabout the world to be more
positive and experience theworld as more safe.
And I don't, it's like, it was,I don't know, it was tough to do
sometimes.

jamie (01:00:10):
I don't know

elyssa (01:00:10):
where I was going with that, but those are my, those
are resources that helped me getthrough and then just be open
and share, like talking topeople.
I think people are a lot moreinterested and open to hearing
from you than you think.
And every time that I reachedout and it was vulnerable or
asked for help, I always got themost like loving, supportive,

(01:00:32):
caring responses from people.
And It's really hard for me toask for help.
It's like really difficult.
So I think,

jamie (01:00:40):
I think a lot of people are, sorry Elyssa, I think a lot
of people are like that.
I think that's just good advice.
in general, not even for a jobsearch, but just sometimes we
need help and we have to ask forit.
And there's there's literally noshame in it.
And it's just, it's the wholething where you just need to put
yourself in the shoes of afriend, like you were talking

(01:01:03):
about this earlier, Elyssa, justlook at yourself as a friend
who.
just got laid off and is it'ssix months in and still hasn't
found a job and you would havewanted her to reach out to you
right away, right?
To get to ask for some help orjust see hey, do you know
anything?
Or hey, can you look at myresume?
And she would be happy to,

elyssa (01:01:26):
or even just to not feel alone.
Like sometimes it's enough tojust know I'm not the only
person who knows I'm strugglingwith this and I don't have to
sit here in silence feeling likeno one is aware or cares.
Let's start podcasts.
No, that's why we have theDiscord, though, in all
seriousness, it is All right,guys, you're pushing the Discord

(01:01:48):
a

jamie (01:01:48):
little too hard on this
No, it's our own support group.
When you are sitting therehaving a shit day, and you're
like, do you just want to geton?
It's your guests.
You need that support

rebecca (01:01:57):
from other people.
And to play games.
You join the Discord.

elyssa (01:02:01):
and I think that's the thing too, is there's a lot of
healing that you can do withyourself, but there are certain
things that you really needcommunity to heal for.
Yes.
there's no amount of me sitting here trying to tell
myself it'll be okay.
That's going to feel the same asit would if I called you or
Jamie and you sat there and heldspace and then told me, I know

(01:02:22):
you can do it.
it's just different when itcomes from someone else.
And we need that.

rebecca (01:02:26):
No, I don't know how I'm

elyssa (01:02:27):
going to
say this right.
But it's not comforting, butit's to see people I really
respect who I know are good orwho I know are good at their
jobs who are struggling to findwork is almost comforting in a
way, because it's I know, I'mnot.
Great at being my own advocate,but like for people I know are
really great and seeing themstruggle.
That's okay.
I think that helps too.

(01:02:47):
It's just if they can't findsomething, then like it's clear,
it's clearly something else.
And look at me.
I'm

rebecca (01:02:54):
Rebecca.
I have a job.

jamie (01:02:58):
I had to.
didn't mean it like that, butit's just, it's,
I don't know,
I, that just sounded
super awful.
And I know it, it didn't, I'mjust being a big, complete
asshole.
you're welcome.
One of my, one of my bestfriends is a 20 plus year public
relations pro who had to spendnine months and 300 plus

(01:03:21):
applications to land a job.
Oh my God.
That's crazy.
It's insane.
It doesn't make sense.
okay.
No, I know what it's like.
We're all in the boat togetherand it's you're in good company.
I think that's what it is.
It's you're in a boat with likereally good company.
Like it's not you, it's notthem, you know that for sure.
And you're like in good companywith these people together.

(01:03:45):
and I think that helps you notinternalize it quite much.

elyssa (01:03:48):
And it is.
I think that you can, I madethat almost a mantra of it's not
me.
It's this job market.
It's not me.
It's this job market.

jamie (01:03:56):
That's a really good mantra.
Just, it's not me.
I really like that.
It's me.
Patriarchy and capitalism.
Yes.

elyssa (01:04:05):
See?
And rugged individualism takento an extreme.

rebecca (01:04:09):
it's not me.
It's the man.
100 percent.
It's the man.
Always.

elyssa (01:04:16):
No, I did actually put together this a blog post that
hopefully I'll finish, but it, Italked about Looking back and
analyzing, like, why did I getlaid off and whatever?
I can see very clearly that itwas economic headwinds and just
things shifting in the jobmarket and with technology in a
way that was, it is justimpacting people and it is hard

(01:04:40):
to do, and I don't know how Idid it and the honest truth is I
didn't, I spent a lot of weeks,tearing my hair out and
screaming like I was on a cyclefor a while where I was like I
would spend a week panicking andthen I would be like really on
top of my shit for a coupleweeks and then I would spend a
week in despair and then I wouldspend a week panicking and then
I really like it was all rightMichael

jamie (01:04:58):
that's about right

elyssa (01:04:59):
if that's what it looks like it sounds about right
but it's almost like grief tooit's like the grief of having to
keep fucking doing this justcontinuously the way you
described it sounds like thegrief cycle over and over again
And it is really hard to put yourself out there and just
be met with rejection all thetime.

jamie (01:05:21):
When you're doing your fucking best too, and you're
like, that was my best coverletter for this company.
Especially if you do not havethe competence of a mediocre
white male, and it's really hardto sell yourself and market
yourself.
It's crushing every time youget, every time you don't get
something.

elyssa (01:05:41):
It is.
It really can be.
I think there was a, probably ahandful of times that I made it
to final rounds, It was harderto let those go of
I
thought I'd have that and I don't, I know I just have
to move forward.

jamie (01:05:58):
I had a situation.
This was like, I think a coupleof years ago.
three or so, where I was, I wasjust looking at other jobs and
an opportunity popped up with acompany that I thought I wanted
to work at and they had such alengthy, in depth, like
ridiculous interview processwhere I feel like I went through
five different rounds ofinterviews and I did an editing

(01:06:23):
test, and filled out aquestionnaire, to maybe make
sure I'm not a serial killer.
I don't know.
but it was a lot and I didn'tget the job.
I was sure I had the job.
everybody was telling me howmuch they loved me in the
interviews, you can see it intheir eyes when they're like,
impressed with you, and you canhear it as they communicate with
you that they're like, oh,you're smart, you can do things,

(01:06:43):
okay, And I was so sure and thenI didn't get it and I was
devastated and they actuallyoffered, which like props to
them for doing this, but theyactually said oh, like we can
give you, some feedback, like onyour, on the interview process
and explain some things a littlebit more.

(01:07:04):
And.
I was like, go for it.
like it's not gonna make me feelshittier.
you might as well.
and if they did give mesomething that like I needed to
work on, but then before theydid that, they were like,
listen, we had over 6, 000applications for this job, for
this role, we actually had fiveof these roles available to hire

(01:07:25):
for, we narrowed the 6, 000 downto 200 or two 50, and then
narrowed that down.
And then that until it was like50.
And then just weeded people outin the interviews until it was
just like 20.
And they ended up choosing fromI think 10 or 15 people for

(01:07:47):
these five positions.

rebecca (01:07:50):
And I didn't get it.

jamie (01:07:52):
But
Did that make you feel better?
Because that would make me feeleven worse, I think.
I don't think, I didn't really take it like super
personally, I don't think itmade me feel worse.
I think it did make me feel alittle bit better because it was
I was one of 6, 000, that'shuge.
I knew that they got a lot ofapplicants, but I had no idea.
And I did confirm this because Iknow people that work there and

(01:08:13):
that's basically what they get.
It was NerdWallet.
and, are you okay?
I'm sorry, I didn't think youwere gonna say that.
oh,
it's fine.
But, I think it helped becauseit was like, oh shit, okay, I'm
one of 6, 000.
I made it that far, and thenthat far, and then that far, and
then,

(01:08:34):
Also, you had a referral, whichis fucking crazy.
Someone who had already workedthere.
I
did not have a
referral.
Wait, did I have a referral then?
you know someone who worksthere.
I don't know if she worked there then.
I don't think she did.
She did.
Oh, okay.
Rebecca remembers.
She does.
I do not.
Okay.

(01:08:55):
And that's why I'm like, that'swhat baffles me.
It's But the, but I'm sure allthese other people had referrals
too.
It was a huge company, Anyway.

elyssa (01:09:05):
Okay.
It may, speaking of which, oneof the places I interviewed and
got to final rounds was yourprevious employer, where you
just got laid off from.
And I realized, I think they hadlayoffs just a few months after
I would have gotten an offer andI didn't, and I was like,
bummer.
But then I was like, I wouldhave been in the same position
and that would have sucked toget hired and then get laid off.

(01:09:27):
I think the person who did getthe offer was included in the
layoffs.
So it just really sucks.
And it's hard not to feel likeevery single thing you're
missing out on, but you justdon't know what's around the
corner and it is hard to keepgoing sometimes.
There's no doubt about that.
and some days you can't.
it's okay.

(01:09:47):
Lie down.
Try not to cry.
Cry a lot.
Roll around a bit.
Why not?

jamie (01:09:52):
Sleep for 15 hours for a weekend.
Every day for a weekend.
there's

elyssa (01:09:57):
the term like bed rotting, which I love actually,
because I am too, I'msuggestible that I'm like, how
can I turn this?
How can I play with this?
when people say bed rotting, I'mlike, I'm going into this
little, my bed is a bed of mulchand I'm a little fungus and I'm
rotting and I'm just breakingdown all the old grody stuff
into like rich stuff.

jamie (01:10:17):
The most I list thing I've ever heard in my fucking
life.

elyssa (01:10:21):
It's funny.
I

jamie (01:10:21):
love it.
No, I love it.

elyssa (01:10:22):
I'm gonna, I'm gonna find a way to feel good about my
bed body.
Turn it.
Okay.
I feel

jamie (01:10:27):
like that's very Taurus of her though,
I say mine is not mulch.
Mine is Dorito crumbs andtoenail clippings like it's
Okay, That's more disgustingthan mulch.

elyssa (01:10:35):
Toenail clips like bedro, like colony.

jamie (01:10:41):
Ant colony.
What the fuck is wrong with youguys?
Say you figured out a way toturn bed rot into something
that's good.
I figured out a way to turn bedrot into something that just
makes me even worse.
Marina says we call it being a slug.
Gonna slug it up on the couch.
Get my slime all overeverything.

elyssa (01:10:59):
I call it my plop days.
Plop days.
I plop and I don't have to movefrom that spot.
I'm trying to think.
I got my beverage, my videogames, my phone.

jamie (01:11:11):
Wait, I do want to do a beverage check.
How many beverages doeseverybody have right now?
I only have two actually.

elyssa (01:11:19):
Water

jamie (01:11:20):
and some coffee.

elyssa (01:11:21):
Water.
I've been getting in a goodhabit of cleaning my office
every day that's good.
Oh wait, no.

jamie (01:11:27):
Now she's bragging.
Nice.

elyssa (01:11:30):
It's only, it's been this week.

jamie (01:11:31):
On our break, I did get rid of, an electrolyte drink as
well.
I did have three.
Marina has two.
Look at you.
I did want to read what Mannixsaid really quick, too.
Once I interviewed for a jobwhere I already knew half the
team, and I made them all bustup laughing in an interview
using one of their inside jokes.
Two positions were available,but the guys above the

(01:11:52):
interview, interviewer, put mein third place.
See, and that's just it, too.
It's were the people above theinterview, wasn't the
interviewer the hiring manager?
Because in that case, it's thatneeds to be the hiring manager's
decision, not the people abovethem.
Unless there's something,horribly wrong that this person
is, not seeing, which it couldhave been, What do we really
know about Manic Socratic?

(01:12:15):
Anyway.

elyssa (01:12:16):
it sucks when you know that, you just barely missed it.
And I definitely had someinterviews where I was like,
that would hurt because I didnot do good.
It hurt.

jamie (01:12:25):
It's just, it really hurts to go through, Like it's
bad enough to be like, oh, Ididn't get a call back after the
screener, That's one thing, butlike to go through like rounds
upon rounds of the interview anda test I don't know.

elyssa (01:12:39):
One of my friends is a massage therapist And she's like
I literally she's literallynever had a nine to five job
like me.
She just sees clients.
That's it and sometimes it'sreally funny because sometimes
she'll describe her job and I'mlike You have a crazy job.
This is wild, but she feels thesame way.
Like I'll describe like goingthrough five rounds of
interviews and she's like, howmany people did you talk to?

(01:13:00):
They had you do what?
this is crazy.
This sounds like torture.
This is illegal.
That's

jamie (01:13:04):
illegal.
I'm pretty sure that's illegal.
It sounds like when, like theolden days when a king is trying
to find a new fucking queen andyou have to stand in front, like
that British group, but he's no,go, no.
And you're just standing thereplease pick me.
It's fucking humiliating.
And if you're autistic, you haveto put on a fucking mask and
then pretend to people, which isexhausting.
It's sorry.

(01:13:24):
I

elyssa (01:13:26):
will even, who knows?
But no, I felt the same waywhere it was like, I felt like
in the past I'd been able toshow up and do my interview well
and it was good.
And I found this time I did haveto prepare my talking points,
have my situation, task, action,result, little star.

(01:13:46):
I literally, you don't, youdidn't learn this.
you're supposed to structureyour answers in a way where
you're like, here's thesituation.
We need to make something forthis, Which meant task, I had to
make a report, action, I putthat report together and I went
above and beyond in X, Y, Z waysand the result was, we sold a

(01:14:07):
lot of units,
Oh, I think I've been doing it
everywhere else.
Oh no.
Rebecca better not get laid off.
Oh no.
This was something that myunemployment coach went over
with me.
I was just explaining why peoplewere wrong and I was right and
how I fit.

(01:14:30):
Here's why everyone should havefucking of

jamie (01:14:32):
course it is we're back.

elyssa (01:14:32):
And

jamie (01:14:38):
what did you learn that I was right?

elyssa (01:14:42):
Do you say when people ask you like, what's the
weakness for you?
Or tell me about a time whereyou met like you

jamie (01:14:49):
delegating.
Oh, delegating is my weakness.

elyssa (01:14:53):
Delegating.

jamie (01:14:54):
I'm shit at delegating.
Because they're gonna do itwrong.
I don't say that, but

elyssa (01:15:00):
it's accurate.
I'm usually like, here's my deepflaw that has cursed me my whole
life that I now have a veryeffective system for.
Thank you.
Cool.
So I like it.
They're like, and how did youfix that?
I'm like, I
didn't, it is why I'm intherapy.
It's clearly I dunno
if my system gets off track and it will, at some
point, I will drop the ball, butI know how to get back on track.

(01:15:21):
That's good.

jamie (01:15:24):
you like to see it.
I,

elyssa (01:15:25):
you can see why maybe I fail some interviews.

jamie (01:15:28):
I really don't.

elyssa (01:15:29):
A little too honest for my good.
I do remember Rebecca one time Iwas like, they asked me if I had
this experience and I, andyou're like, why?
Why?
Oh What
do you do?
Which, I don't know.
I, it's hard to do.
Every CEO director I know hasdone that for their fucking job.
Just do it, Elyssa.

jamie (01:15:46):
Every man I know has done that.
Every man
I know has done it.
You do it, too.
They just Google it, or theyhave someone else do it.
You can do that, too.
Listen, we're not condoning that you lie in job
interviews, but, sometimes yougotta do what you gotta do.

elyssa (01:16:02):
Yes.
and I feel like it's this way,which is if I know I can do this
job and you need me to.
Judge it a little bit like, ofcourse we all do that.
We find the best way to positionourselves.
And I think it's anyway, I just,it was helpful advice for me of
don't get hung up on theliterally what did you do in
your job?
Because many of the questionsare like, are you really going

(01:16:22):
to ding me?
Because I use JIRA and not asauna.
You're going to decide on adifferent con candidate because
of the task management software,their last job had, it can get
that silly.
at some point I just say.
I can learn that, or I knowthat, or just say the truth,
which is I learn new systemsvery quickly, or I'm very
comfortable with task managementsystems, I'm confident I could
use it.

(01:16:43):
It's,

jamie (01:16:43):
That's such bullshit too, because that's how we should be
hiring people, is we should behiring people, honestly, this is
fucked up, but the culture fit.
Slash personality and how youare like vibing with them in the
interview a little bit like thatdoes matter and to me that
matters more whether or notyou've used fucking air table

(01:17:04):
before in your life or jira likei can teach you that i can't
teach you how not to be anasshole
You remember the bad place whereI used to work and they asked if
you could be a dinosaur, whatkind would you be?
I've been in interviews withthem and they literally turned
down a candidate because theydidn't like her outfit or her
necklace.
It was quote, too much red.

(01:17:24):
Okay, that's not what I'mtalking about.
That, but that's, that's, theseare the kind of assholes you're
interviewing with.
it's not you.
Sorry.

elyssa (01:17:31):
I
was going
to say, I think this is important too, is I think you
have to be conscious of like,how much am I turning myself up
or down?
what am I willing to do?
And I had to get comfortable tooof it's okay for me to not get a
job where I would have beenmiserable.
Like maybe that's okay.
Maybe like I always dresscolorfully all the time.
that's how I'm going to show upto my job interview.

(01:17:52):
That was not a dig at you.
I'm sorry.
That was not like my

jamie (01:17:54):
God.
No.
Elyssa's like Ms.
Frazzle or whatever.
Ms.
Frazzle.
What's her name?
For top.

elyssa (01:18:01):
For sure.
They're neutral colors and stuffand I'm just like, I don't know,
I wear my normal outfits.
They look nice.
They're like business cash.
But
these are idiotic men who gotdrunk on business trips that
like they threw up blood.
like they did not know how tointerview.
don't listen to them.
I'm just saying when you'redoing interviews, these are the
kind of assholes you'reinterviewing with.

(01:18:22):
And a lot of them is not buggingyou.
Okay.
I love that you said got drunk because do you remember,
okay, do you remember that onetime that we got too drunk and I
dared.
The CEO to do splits and
that was great.
That is my favorite story.
Yes.

jamie (01:18:40):
We got, hang on.
we got too drunk and what Ithink did us in is that I think
we took like a bunch ofpicklebacks and that was my
first time getting, having apickleback.

elyssa (01:18:50):
and I was evil because I know my power.
Sometimes I felt it that night.
I have the power tonight.
I'm charming.
I'm cute.
I'm a little tipsy.
And he was, people were like, dothe splits.
And I was like, I'll do it.
And I was like,

jamie (01:19:02):
I

elyssa (01:19:03):
can't do the splits, but I was, getting close.
I was getting as close as I can.
She

jamie (01:19:07):
tried.

elyssa (01:19:07):
Anyway, and then he did it and he ripped his pants.

jamie (01:19:11):
just immediately.

elyssa (01:19:12):
Like a man, he had to show you the right way to do it.
It's

jamie (01:19:14):
like, why are your pants that tight, bro?
Why are your pants that tight?
There were some tight asskhakis, dude.
I'm like, what?
Or jeans?
I think they were khakis.

elyssa (01:19:23):
I love that Rebecca said that because it was totally
that.
It was like, can't have a girlshowing me up, That was the vibe
I got.
It was like, When you just sitthere and you don't drink during
dinner, but then you drinkduring after dinner and the next
thing you're convincing peopleto, sing tunes at the piano bar.
And then you show up for workthe next day, not hung over, but
everyone else is like that.

jamie (01:19:45):
Yes, that's my favorite.
Didn't we go do karaoke once forone of our.
Wait, Rebecca, were you there?
I was there because that's wherethe Uber driver got pulled over.
And Kate was there and I wasfreaking the fuck out.
Maybe that's a different
time because now I don't remember that.
Oh, I think that was when wewent to Austin maybe

(01:20:06):
for the reunion.
Oh, the reunion.
I planned and never went to.
Fuck my life.
I don't think I did karaoke withyou other times.
Elyssa and I, we did a, we did aduet.
I think we did, I don'tremember.
I think it was in Austin aswell, actually.
It was

elyssa (01:20:24):
great.
That was a great night.
I do remember my core memoryfrom the night is I grew up
Mormon, and I remember beinglike, I am a little drunk and I
love everyone here much andeveryone I grew up with told me
this was bad and I'd go to hell,but I feel great.
I feel like this is what loveis.
It was great.
thank you for sharing thatmoment with me, Jamie You're
welcome.
It was healing

jamie (01:20:45):
or singing like that was brand singing, like the
Backstreet Boys and our likeparty bus limo on our work
retreat.
Or the leg.
There was like a random.
Mannequin leg or something thatwas being passed around

elyssa (01:20:57):
and

jamie (01:20:58):
then we lost it.
They gave it to like strangers.
Strangers ended up with it.
Oh,

elyssa (01:21:04):
good times.

jamie (01:21:06):
Startup retreat.
I miss you guys though.
I miss like

elyssa (01:21:13):
having other people pay us to see each other.
That was nice.
it's really nice.

rebecca (01:21:18):
It was really nice.

elyssa (01:21:20):
My secret dream is to create.
we're
doing that right now.
we're like, we should just make a media conglomerate
almost where all our friends

jamie (01:21:34):
join the discord.
Please join the discord.
What

elyssa (01:21:37):
do you think we're doing here?
Building an empire.
This is

jamie (01:21:40):
it.

elyssa (01:21:41):
Or a rebel alliance.

jamie (01:21:43):
Yes, we'll do that.
Ooh, thank you.
Thanks Marina.
Absolutely.
Yes, I can't wait to meet all myfriends again.
Oh, I should say, our new logo,and this brain you see here,
that is created by Adrian,AODev.
Oh my god, shoutout Adrian.

(01:22:04):
Marina, can you if he's not inhere?
Maybe not.
And I also never shouted outElyssa, which is hilarious.
Oh, it did.
oh, it did work.
Okay.
I lied to Elyssa earlier.
That's fine.
and also, can you tell us again,Elyssa, Friday's at?

elyssa (01:22:25):
4 p.
m.
mountain time, 3 p.
m.
Pacific, 6 p.
m.
Easter.
Yes.
which.
tv backslash brave underscoresaver.
Yes.
And I read

jamie (01:22:40):
books.

elyssa (01:22:41):
I'm trying to like,

jamie (01:22:42):
and I read books, sound like a robot.
And I read books.

elyssa (01:22:46):
I'm trying to world builders book club is I'm trying
to basically give myself hopethat the world is can get be
better and that we can get thereand we build it.
But I also genuinely believethat it can happen.
I'm a big believer in that.
That's the only thing that'sever made it happen in the past
was people showing up and doingit.
I don't see why we couldn't dothat now.

(01:23:07):
Just saying, why can't we all beMartin Luther King?
It's not easy.
Not really.
But
honestly, if we all just decideto go back, I read somewhere.
It's we could have just fuckingfloated in the ocean and eat
fruit, but now we decided tocreate capitalism.
And I'd like to go back to thatfirst option.
I'll, the option
for that was feudalism, which is just another version of
capitalism.

(01:23:27):
that's old fashioned capital.
Yes.
Oh, man.
I'm just for joining us.
I got Jamie.
I'm sorry.

jamie (01:23:36):
Oh, I was just going to say I just, I noticed the time,
we're at about two hours.
Definitely noticed the time allon my own.
I am proud of you.
Thank you much.
Like really, that was amazing.
You did that the time policestand down.
You did good.
I'm doing great.
I'm doing great.
no, this was great.
And Thank you much.

(01:23:57):
Elyssa being our first, Elyssabeing our first guest.
I'm sorry, I laughed because,thank you much.
She's our first.
it's just perfect.
Because we have a lot of that issomething we didn't talk about
that I wish we did, but we cantalk about that next time we can
talk
about our fucking podcast.
Just you can say it Oh,
I it's I think it's more involved.
I was going to talk about howElyssa and I first met and then

(01:24:20):
like into like how we all firstmet, but I feel like that's a
longer story.
Okay, that's true.

elyssa (01:24:25):
And I did mention it like you and I met at a company
Then I went to the next toxiccompany that I didn't know was
toxic, and I was like, Jamie,you should come with me.
And that's where we all met.
it's trauma

jamie (01:24:34):
bonded for life.
and you guys are like my bestfriends too,

elyssa (01:24:39):
I was, And I was blessed to see, to have a front row seat
to watch you guys handle work.
I think that you taught me howto advocate better for myself,
even if you weren't always goodat doing it.
I know we all feel like we coulddo better, but I hope you know
that even if you didn't feellike you were doing the best, I
learned from watching how youguys handled situations at work.

(01:25:00):
I learned how to be gracious.
I learned how to be human andlike lead with empathy without
being cheesy.
you guys are just great fuckinghumans and everyone who would
work with you is freaking lucky,including me just getting to
talk with you.
And you can squint at me,Rebecca.
It's fine.
You don't have to accept it.
I don't think you mean me.

(01:25:22):
I'm pretty sure I do mean you.

jamie (01:25:24):
she definitely means you.
Stop being stupid.
She does mean you.

elyssa (01:25:27):
Again, you say that, but that shitty work situation I
mentioned earlier, you were theperson who explained it to me.
Exactly.
And it was like years later thatit hit me all at once and I was
like, Rebecca was right.
That's exactly right.
Don't

jamie (01:25:40):
tell her that.
See?
Now, aw, look what you did.

elyssa (01:25:43):
God

jamie (01:25:43):
damn it.

elyssa (01:25:44):
See?

jamie (01:25:44):
Now she's happy.
She thinks she did somethinggood.

elyssa (01:25:49):
You just see through the neurotypical bullshit.

jamie (01:25:51):
Very true.
The

elyssa (01:25:52):
politics.
The performance.
It's hard.
And you need people like thatwho will be honest with you and
tell you the truth at work andwho you can be real with and,
it's life saving.
It really is.
It really is
that for me, of course,
we have, I have someone at workwho I do that with now.
She's she gets all, I'm like,Just this is what it's a trick.
This is it's a trick.

(01:26:14):
It's a trick.
You don't have to do that forreal You just have to do
excellent.
She's oh, I'm like, just it's tomake them look good.

jamie (01:26:19):
Just all right Just go through the motions and
I've told
direct reports that dude.
I'm like, all right, let's behonest to do this we're gonna
pretend that we're doing it Andwe're going to do what we know
to be the right thing.
It's

elyssa (01:26:32):
causing problems in two months and roll it back,
whatever.
Oh my god, yes.
Just copy, we just copy andpaste each other's stuff and
then just change enough that itlooks

jamie (01:26:43):
Hi mom.
My mom says, hi girls.
Hello Mrs.
Jamie's mom.
And then
Marina proceeded to shout her out, which is my favorite.
I did, Marina, I did actuallyhave to text someone today and
mention that I had to move.
eating because I was pooping.
Did you tell them that?
On my phone.
Is that what you want to tellMarina?

(01:27:05):
Yes.
Oh, I see.
I didn't see her say that, I waslike, that was random.

elyssa (01:27:10):
If you could test the waters, because if you're not
going to let me be human enoughto poo.
I'm
having diarrhea.
I have to move our meeting.
So sorry.
Best, Rebecca.
Yes.
Yes.
we love you much, Elyssa.
We are glad you came on.
Thank you for, genuinely, thankyou for being our first person
here.
It's always lovely to talk toyou.

(01:27:31):
It makes me feel like we'rebetter people talking to you.
Because you're just alwaysinsightful and thoughtful.
And you always have such, reallygreat things to say.
Thank you.
See, I love watching you guys.
I love watching you guys becauseI'm like, I just, because you
just should talk yourselves thewhole time.
The little bit, which is funny.
I get it.
Self deprecating humor, the bestat it.

(01:27:52):
you two are, but I'm like thepeople watching.
You don't even know.
They don't even know the endintellect and power on display.
They do not know.

jamie (01:28:00):
Oh, they will know

elyssa (01:28:02):
they would.
They're learning.
they're learning well,

jamie (01:28:04):
they will

elyssa (01:28:05):
slowly, but surely.
They're learning.

jamie (01:28:07):
No, Elyssa just and Elyssa too was one of my, I know
I always harp on this, it'shilarious, but she was like one
of my first friends that hadchildren, like had young
children when I met you, and Iwas like taken aback by like how
well her and her husbandparented and like you guys were

(01:28:28):
like relatively young I thinkstill like you were you guys
were still relatively young andeveryone else that I knew
whether it was like a friend ora family or like a colleague who
was in the same situation withyoung kids at the time like I
would just always be like Oh, isthat is that how you're raising
your kid, dude?

(01:28:48):
I'd never say that out loud, butthis is how I raise my children.
They're screaming in thebackground.
but I was just impressed withit, and I thought it was like
cool, and I was like, oh wow,and like her kids, I'm sorry,
don't tell M this, but, or myniece and nephew, but Elyssa's
kids were the first kids that Ilike really loved, and I was
like, I love these kids, andthey're amazing, and I wish I

(01:29:10):
would have.
I've been able to, be around alittle bit more when they were
growing up, but I'm very gladfor the part that I was able to,
see, of their lives anyway.

elyssa (01:29:22):
I think you've been part of my village for a really long
time and, that's really special.
And I think that's when, whenwe're unemployed, when shit hits
the fan, I know that there havebeen a lot, cause you and I both
self isolate when we'redepressed.
there really is, we wouldn'ttalk, we wouldn't hear from each
other for six months.
it would

jamie (01:29:38):
be long periods of time.

elyssa (01:29:40):
and I think that's, I think that's important to say
though, because I think it'seasy when you're coming out of
self isolation to assume peopledon't want to hear from you or
they're mad at you because theydon't, you disappeared on them.
And I think you can just trust,on other people and lean on them
to hold a little more space foryour humanity, including when
you're like interviewing andapplying for jobs.
I don't really want to work at aplace where they don't let me be

(01:30:02):
human enough to like, sorry, canI start over?
Or, I'm nervous and I flubbed mywords a little bit, or I want to
be able to feel like I get to bemyself and get to be human.
And I think that's hard is likebalancing that feeling like that
pressure to be perfect and thelike, but I want to end up in a
place where I can feel okay andbe myself.
thanks for being a place I canalways be myself.

(01:30:23):
I feel like we can stop gushingnow It's like

jamie (01:30:25):
we love each other.
We love each other a lot.
Okay guys, we all love eachother
Elyssa, thank you again forbeing here.
It was a delight.
It's always a delight to talk toyou.
You're one of my favoritepeople.
Same.
And Jamie is here too.
And
Jamie is here too.

elyssa (01:30:42):
Hit on me more.
Hit on me harder.
I'm just going to

jamie (01:30:46):
leave everybody with this.
When I was first having AIproduce some show notes for us
for, I think, our first episodeor one of the first episodes.
It was like, in the inauguralfirst episode, your hosts,
Rebecca and Elyssa, and I waslike, me?

(01:31:07):
Elyssa's not the host.
Guys, what about me?
But it thought Elyssa was the

elyssa (01:31:13):
host.
I commented a lot and you readmy name.
It was delightful.
It was a,
oh, you are, you were a
lovely addition.
Yes, agreed.
That was a lovely edition.
But
I love that, the real fame, I feel like it's sad that
no one said Jamie's name morethan they said Pine in that.
I feel like that's whathappened.
Jamie, Jamie, Jamie, Jamie,Jamie.
Jamie, Jamie, Jamie, Jamie.

(01:31:34):
I'm just trying to influence,Vegan! Vegan! Fuck! Nice.
Alright.
Also, can we talk about how, onthat, I think that same trip
when we got drunk and you madethe CEO rip his pants because
you dared him to do the splits.
That was when you leaned over tome, drunk as fuck, at the bar,
and you were like, I might getsome chicken nuggets, or some

(01:31:56):
chicken wings.
And I was like, oh, okay, you'reeating chicken now because she's
usually pescatarian, or was atthe time.
And I've been vegetarian for along time.
Vegan.
Oh my god, have you?
I don't remember that.

jamie (01:32:10):
And she leaned over to me and she's I really could get
some wings.
And I was like, oh shit.
Okay.
sure.
And she's like, don't you everdo that?
And I was like, do what?
She's like, eat some meat nowand then, like when you're
really drunk.
And I was like, No, that's not.
Jamie texted me a couple weeksago and was like, I got Chick
fil A.
I was like, Oh my God, are you adirty chicken eater?
Like Elyssa?
cause I started it by saying, I was like, I'm a

(01:32:31):
horrible person.
I got Chick fil A.
and I didn't mean that I waseating chicken.
I was definitely eating Frenchfries and Mac and cheese
because.
What a great vegetarian meal.
that does

elyssa (01:32:43):
sound like something drunk me would do.

jamie (01:32:46):
And I was, you were just matter of fact, don't you like,
you were just like, everybodydoes that, right?
And I was like, I, no.
I was like, I've never thoughtof that, but maybe it's just me
that doesn't, it's great.

elyssa (01:32:57):
Look, just.
Get me drunk and I'll tell youmy deepest darkest secrets and
they will be About eatingchicken

jamie (01:33:02):
wings when you're drunk

elyssa (01:33:03):
when I'm a vegetarian.
I

jamie (01:33:05):
love it

elyssa (01:33:06):
I'd like to get back to being a vegetarian one day when
my kids cooperate And I don'thave to cook like four different
meals every night to do it
Speaking of food, we're doingthe long goodbye and it's dinner
time.
And it's dinner

jamie (01:33:19):
time.
Hangry.
I'm hungry.
All

elyssa (01:33:22):
we'll have you.
Thanks for having you much.
tune in tomorrow I'm gonna betalking about all about

jamie (01:33:27):
Love World Builders Book Club at Brave Under Savor on
Twitch.
Tune in for Elyssa's podcast.
Thank you.
You soon.
Bye
guys.
Bye.
The Burnout Collective is hostedby me, Jamie Young.

rebecca (01:33:42):
And me, Rebecca McCracken.
You can find all our episodes,plus show notes, at
burnoutcollective.
com.

jamie (01:33:48):
Follow the discord link on our website to join the
burnout community.
You can also find us on TikTokand Instagram.

rebecca (01:33:54):
If you're interested in being a guest on a future
episode or have questions orfeedback.
You can email us at podcast atburnout collective.
com.

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