They'd rather stand on a pile of skulls

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Here's the thing, I don't payattention to men.

(00:01):
That's gonna be our, that's,that's it.
That's the bit at the beginningof the podcast or that's just,
or that's just the title of theepisode now.
I don't.
Or your life mantra.
I'm Jamie.
And I'm Rebecca.
Welcome to the BurnoutCollective.
Hey, everybody.

(00:22):
Hello.
this is Madeline.
We're so excited.
Madeline, welcome.
This is Madeline Shores.
She is here.
episode 14.
Can't believe it.
And yeah, we get to talk to herabout what she's been doing for
the past year after she decidedto quit working full time and
focus on herself.
What a dream.
What a dream.
Yeah, thanks so much for havingme and giving me a chance to

(00:44):
talk about burning out andquitting your jobs with no real
plan.
I'm Madeline Shores.
worked as an editorial and commsleader for about a decade, at a
financial services institutionand, had a career before that
and always been an editorial andcomms.
and quite frankly, I think,being an older millennial and
being in the workforce.

(01:06):
young like everyone and justgoing through my career, I knew
at some point that I wouldprobably snap and quit my job
and take time off.
That was something I did not Andthen it happened.
It did happen.
it's amazing.
I just, I used to wake up everyday and I enjoyed my work.
I had a job that I loved.
It was in my field.

(01:27):
It's exactly what I wanted to bedoing.
There was no other job that Iwanted that would have fulfilled
me like, the one that I had.
However, I also woke up everyday like, man, when am I going
to get a break from this?
And I felt like That, more andmore was like, Oh, it'll just
be, you have PTO coming up in amonth and you're taking a week

(01:48):
off and I was like, Oh, great.
And that did not do anything tohelp that, like for a while, PTO
helps in the beginning and thenI got to the point where I would
go on PTO and I almost didn'twant to because it was so much
work just to get there.
Like I'd have to do all the workfor that week.
the week before and then I geton vacation and I'm so stressed

(02:10):
out and I haven't slept in aweek.
And it wouldn't do anything.
I would spend my vacation, like,catching up on sleep.
And then I'd go back to theoffice and I'd be like, Oh my
gosh, I have to do this againtoday for another, month until
we have that vacation day.
It's the biggest crime right noware people being like, Ooh,
we're not gonna have another dayoff till May.
Fuck you guys.
I don't need to be reminded.

(02:31):
Fuck all y'all.
I hate that.
Companies do love to do that,right?
It's always the HR people.
They're like, Okay guys, just aheads up, here are the holidays.
The next one's not for fourmonths, and it's like, oh jeez.
I lived and died by my holidaycalendar.
That was a wake up call for mewhen I was like, I rate one year

(02:53):
because we didn't get one of thedays off we normally got, and it
was like a long story with that.
Like stock market calendars, butI was like, Oh, we need this
day.
I'm not going to be able to dothis year if I don't have this
one extra day.
And I will say too, I worked ina company that had a very
liberal PTO policy.
I had a ton of it.
And it wasn't like I was beingrun into the ground by no days

(03:15):
off or no PTO or no time to dothings like I had so much
freedom to go to a doctor'sappointment or whatever I needed
to do.
At the end of the day, it wasstill that, just crushing, like,
my company owns my life becauseI have to be here five days a
week and it felt, it got to thepoint where it felt like my

(03:38):
entire life.
and I just always wondered,like, when am I going to start
living?
Like, when am I going to, live?
Or, like, when am I going to getthe chance to just live for me
for a little while?
And I always advocated for,sabbatical options.
They're not very popular, and Idon't really know why.
Four day work week.
I, every company I've worked at,not everyone, but the last

(04:00):
three, I kept trying to bringthat up, and so many people are
behind it, but, it's the CEO andthe HR that like, look at me.
I think they actually stoppedresponding to me at my last
company when I like, would askand check in with them about it.
Oh, did you guys consider this?
Did you read my email with allof these sources as to how this
is a really great idea foremployees?

(04:20):
And they just started ignoringme.
So that felt great.
Yeah.
And.
I think that's common,unfortunately, I really, I wrote
in surveys that were takenpretty seriously, that everyone
has a company culture survey andsometimes nobody listens, but
these were taken prettyseriously and I remember writing
in there, I could spend the restof my career here, which would

(04:44):
have been like 20 more yearsafter this, if you would give me
a sabbatical.
But without that, I do not knowif I'm going to be able to work
here long term, because I haveall of these things that I would
like to do, not just have timeto focus on myself, but I've
always wanted to go like travelfor a month.
And there was never a way to dothat with a full time corporate

(05:07):
job.
With no sabbatical option orlike even if you have all your
PTO, you don't want to spend itall in one month because you
have like kids who get sick, Imean you do want to, but you
want to do that every month,right?
Yeah, you want to do it everymonth and like I can't risk like
what if I use all my whole bankof PTO in February and then I
have to spend the rest of theyear without any that's not

(05:30):
tenable.
and something that always, don'twanna say bothered me, but, in
my late 30s, I watched, majorityof my friends have kids, and
they were all getting time off.
Now, not, I want to be reallycareful with this, I support
parents 100%, and I thinkparents need more time off, way

(05:51):
more time off of work than whatthey currently have, and I hope
everybody.
but I saw, oh, all of my friendshave had these few months where
they're focusing on theirfamily.
Of course, it's not like they'rejust on vacation, not doing
anything, taking care of a babyand your family.
that's really hard work, butthey spent a few months working
on their family and they're ableto focus on their personal

(06:14):
lives.
And I was like, huh, thisdoesn't feel great, that I don't
have an option for that, even ifI want to go work on my, myself,
or focus on my mental health,which like, Or your family,
which could not includechildren, or could not include a
partner.
I do, I actually do.
I have a dog who is post op,well, eight weeks post op,

(06:35):
sleeping next to me right now,who just went through something,
and, it's, it just really, gotto me that there was no way for
me to take any leave from my jobor my career, no matter where
that was without deciding tohave a baby or something drastic
happening where I would qualifyfor some other type of leave,
which I wasn't wanting that, Ididn't want to actually get

(06:57):
pushed to the point of having amental breakdown and having to,
take a few months off to, tohandle that, so yeah, I,
honestly, there was something,big that happened in my personal
life, and, not a lot of bigthings happening at work, but a
lot of bullshit happening atwork.
Always.
And I thought about it for oneday, which was, I thought, I
showed incredible restraint notquitting on the spot, but I

(07:19):
thought about it for one wholeday.
I said, don't quit today, butmaybe we'll just think about it
till tomorrow, and I thoughtabout it till tomorrow, and then
I was like, nope, goodbye.
this is I have to ask, are you aVirgo?
Obviously, I go.
That's the biggest Virgo energyI've ever heard in my entire
It's like a blessing I love it.
But it's also a curse becauseit's You're just done.

(07:40):
one day you're just fuckingdone.
No matter what the thing is,your job, a friendship, just
done, and you just don't lookback.
which isn't always the best, butfor this, it really worked out.
Oh, you put yourself first foronce.
I did.
And I, it took, it took some, mesaying some things in a
different way, and just be like,I'm out of here.

(08:01):
And I had You know, because Ihad known that I always wanted
to, take time off and not workfor a little while.
there were financial things thatI had done in advance of that,
where I had, emergency savingsthat would Help out if I was
ever in the situation, of jobloss or of job loss because I
snapped, You're like, mostlybecause, mostly if I snapped,

(08:22):
isn't it?
Mostly if I snapped, I knew Iwasn't really gonna lose my job.
I like how you're like, eversince I was five years old, I
knew one day.
I knew it would happen.
I didn't even like going toschool because I didn't like
having to go somewhere everyday, like school owned my life.
Yeah.
The same.
The same principle.
so it like wasn't really easyand it was actually terrifying
because I woke up that next dayafter I quit and I had these

(08:44):
thoughts of I'm finally free,like I'm gonna be free.
I gave like notice, so I workedfor a few weeks.
yeah, like I'm going to be free.
And then I was like, holy shit,you don't have a paycheck.
What the fuck are you gonna do?
And How long did that take tokick in between I need to do
this, goodbye, I'm leaving?

(09:04):
And oh, this is great.
I'm so free until wait, holyshit.
What did I just do?
What a day.
I don't have a page.
Oh wow.
Oh wow.
That's quick.
That's quick Madeline.
No, I was like, holy shit, but Ijust didn't I like didn't care
like I cared but I was like, Iam leaving this job and I am

(09:26):
taking time off and I'm notgetting another job right away.
And I'm just gonna see how longthe money lasts.
I'm just gonna see how long Ican do this.
It's interesting because a lotof people, when I first told
them, like my close friends whowere my peers and they knew what
I was going through, were like,good for you, we're so happy,
right?
Yeah.

(09:46):
And most people who I meet and,they say, oh, what do you do?
And I'm like, well, nothingright now.
I'm taking a professional break.
And most people, especially ifthey're older than me, Or good
for you.
That is so important.
And I'm like, oh, that'sshocking.
That's not, I did not expect youto say that.
I thought you were gonna, yeah,I was ready to fight.
I didn't think you were gonnasay that.
I know.

(10:07):
my parents were like, oh, you'reruining your life, what are you
doing?
But that's my parents.
They're always gonna do that.
You're like other old people,besides my parents.
But people who I don't know arestrangers, and I expected a lot
of oh, really, you're notworking?
But it was like, wow, that's soimportant.
and, there are people who Idon't know super well who see me
not working and just assume thatit's like this insane privilege
that I have.

(10:27):
I don't have a trust fund.
I don't have anyone else payingi'd probably be a shittier
person, but I do wish I had one.
it was this whole mindset shiftof, okay, we're just not gonna
go out for dinner anymore.
We're not gonna spend money on,we're not gonna buy anything.
And it was it really took meback to when I first graduated

(10:48):
college right after 2008.
And I, had to live off ramen andwhatever.
and it felt like that, but italso, I was really happy that I
had that experience of livingwith very little and not being
able to find a job, so I couldthen do this and feel more
comfortable with it.
cause it's like, it's hard.
It's really hard to like, turnoff the little voice that's

(11:08):
you're ruining your life andyour savings and your whole life
because Your job gives you somuch financial freedom in every
single way.
for sure.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, well, you're, youhave to live here.
if you are employed, you areliving for your job and to get
that.
And you, you took a radicalchoice and went, no, I'm going

(11:30):
to live for me.
And we were saying yesterday.
We'll both die, but like youwill have died knowing that you
spent your time living foryourself versus living for a
company.
And that's huge.
For a period of time.
so you're better than us, iswhat we're saying.
Exactly.
I'm still much better because Ijust, snapped.
Yeah.

(11:50):
and that's how I think of it,though.
Like I think about how, we allwant to get to 65 retirement.
I, you work for over 40 years atthat point if you don't take any
time off.
And I looked at my life and Ithought, okay, this seems like a
really big deal right nowbecause you're not working,
you're not contributing to yoursavings.

(12:11):
I'm not saving any money rightnow.
I'm using it.
like a faux retirement in aweird way.
but I never wanted to look backand be like, I wish I did that.
And also thinking about it, if Ihave a 45 year career and I take
one or two years off, that'snothing.
People do that for fucking kids.

(12:31):
Yeah, true.
Yeah.
I took two years off for a kidand all I got was a kid who
writes me awful letters.
You get to do cool things likehiking and concerts.
Ash says, it would be so nice tohave leave options as a non
parent besides like FMLA.
And Elyssa said, workers have alot of personal care
responsibilities besidesparenthood.

(12:52):
Yeah, there are.
A lot of support for Virgos.
Love a Virgo with a fuck offfund.
I support all Virgo energieseverywhere, Oh yeah, taking care
of sick parents.
your Dog, got really sick andyou probably, I think we were
saying yesterday, you wouldn'thave had a chance to devote that
time and energy to her like youwould now and she's still here

(13:12):
and doing so well.
Yeah, and I was, I felt so luckyalmost.
So my dog had, she tore her, dogACL.
I like how you always say dogACL, by the way.
Well, it's not called an ACL indogs.
oh, okay.
People are like, well, actually,and I'm like, I fucking know
what it is, but not everybodyknows what a CCL is.
So it's a dog ACL.
I was just schooled.

(13:33):
I was trying to be funny andMadden's like, actually, you're
wrong.
Actually, it's because peopleare always like, well, actually,
it's something else.
Okay, fuck off.
My dog's leg is broken.
It doesn't work.
It doesn't matter.
Anyway, I think.
But yeah, that, she did that.
She basically had to havereconstructive surgery of her
knee.
And needed, like, kind of insanecare.
we had to monitor her, 24 7because they basically, cut her

(13:56):
leg in half, reattached it witha plate.
And you have to, make sure shedoesn't, run too hard and snap
that plate in between the time,the surgery and when it heals.
And it was, like, a full timejob.
It was, like, taking care of ababy almost.
Almost.
Except dogs have to go outsideto pee, which is bullshit.
But anyway.
Pet ternity leave.

(14:17):
Pet ternity leave.
Okay, I'll stop.
Or just fucking leave.
just leave for anything that'simportant in your life that you
have to do.
Like, why is that?
Not an option at this point.
And I'm not saying your mentalhealth, yeah, like I, I would
still be working there if I hadleave and I could have taken it.
And that's what I always saidIt's and they got you super
young like they got you rightout of school.

(14:38):
I didn't say yeah I actuallystarted there when I was 24 So
they had someone like youworking there and instead of
saying fuck.
Yes, take a month off You areone of our most valued people
they went So that no biggerpicture thinking from them no,
which again just goes to provemy point of if you were hit by a

(14:59):
bus tomorrow they would notfucking care, but like they
didn't nurture you, they, theyjust drained as much blood as
you could give them.
And then we're like, okay, bye.
That's awful.
Exactly.
And it's as a, I would haveliterally devoted the rest of my
career to that company becausethat's how much I actually did

(15:19):
enjoy.
Working there and there were alot of situations that I was in
that I had to get out of butthat was like not the company
that was more like people thatjust were people like too hard
for me, but people always peopletoo hard for me man like I get
it and I almost felt okay likeyou're just gonna let me walk

(15:40):
away because I need some timenot to mention there are no
career people anymore Like it'severy two years people our age
like having to go from job tojob So the fact that you are
willing to be like I am here andyou have me and that no I
literally told me I will spendthe rest of my career here If I
have these things.

(16:01):
And I wasn't even trying tolike, threaten them at the time.
Because I, I think when I saidthat, I was two years out.
but yeah, that's all you need togive me.
And I, it's not all, of course,that's a big deal to a company.
But if I could get pregnanttomorrow, and have a baby in 40
weeks, you would have no problemgiving me three months off.
But if it's just because I wantto, it's not doable.

(16:24):
And that's what really gets me.
And nobody would, there werepeople who I worked with who
took six months off when theyhad babies, because they had
just worked out their leave, andthen, parental leave, and
everything to back up that way,and that's great.
I love that for them.
But you can't fucking tell mebecause I don't have a baby.
I can't be away for six months.
Yeah.
your time is treated asinfinitely less value if you

(16:46):
don't have kids, by the way.
Oh, well, she can fill in.
I'm with my family right now or,well, she can do it.
It's so gross.
it's so gross and wasteful.
Yeah, it is.
And I definitely felt that a lotfrom like leaders.
A lot of, unfortunately, women.
or like really big perpetratorsof that, or were for that.
I was like very lucky to workwith very supportive men,

(17:09):
always.
in a weird way, like I don'tknow why, and I don't know why
this happened, but the worstpeople I've ever worked with are
women, who have treated me theworst.
My career?
probably because women arethreatened by other women in
like a stupid way that theyshouldn't be and men aren't.
so that's because they can killus.
When they should be.
Yeah, exactly.

(17:29):
men should be threatened by usall the time.
A hundred percent, but fordifferent reasons.
I'm not trying to take your job,but I am going to actually kill
you.
No, yeah, like I was, I alwaysfound the most supportive people
to be men.
Who, saw me as a whole person,not just, whatever other women
would treat me as.
It was like, oh, well, I'm,like, with my kids, you have to

(17:49):
do this thing.
Or, oh, I'm doing this.
Or, oh, I have kids to, do this.
And it was like, why are the menhere the ones defending me?
Why are they saying, the dadswere the ones who I wanted to
support at work?
Not because they were dadstaking care of kids, and that's
amazing.
It's not.
It's just parenting.
But, yeah, they were the oneswho were, like, really
respectful of my time.

(18:10):
I would check in, and, Hey,we're doing this project.
Like, all night, bedtime is at 7for my guy, do you mind taking
this part so I can go put him tobed?
Of course.
Of course I'll do that.
Yes.
Why wouldn't I?
Because even though this reallystressful thing is happening,
you're gonna still make time foryour kids, and you should.
And it just, I could go on aboutthis for literal days.

(18:34):
We will nod in agreement.
That's, I also think it's like,the whole like, maternity leave
thing is so outdated, and I knowthey do like, Parental leave
now, which is great, but Ithink, that's I don't know, now
I'm like, that's the next step,maybe, is, and I don't even know
exactly how they would go aboutit, because there's still part

(18:55):
of me that thinks, well, ifsomebody has a baby, though,
they deserve more time.
I still think I deserve time,but I'm like, oh, maybe they
deserve more time.
I don't know.
Maybe that's just, internalized,society pressure.
Well, no, I do think, we have tothink about the real Facts of
what it means if you are either,adopting or physically birth, or

(19:17):
you could be the non birthparent or physically birthing a
baby.
there are insane things you gothrough that are definitely,
that definitely require moretime than me taking a mental
health break.
I completely agree.
And I think it's we all needmore time.
Parents deserve more time.
Like moms who have children andlike they get an extra week off
if they have a c section andlike you just had your abdomen

(19:39):
cut open and you had majorsurgery.
Wait, people do that?
I've never heard that.
Oh yeah, you get more time ifyou have a c section but it's
like five more days.
As someone who's had a csection, lol.
That's bonkers.
But also, it's that whole takesa village mantra of having kids,
and part of that fucking villageis people who don't have kids,
and they also need to besupported in kind, though.

(20:00):
I'm not.
Where's my auntie leave?
Where's my auntie leave, youguys?
what if I need to pick upsomeone else's kid from school?
And it's well, you don't havekids.
Yes.
I, okay, but I'm helping out theparents who can't leave.
Or you're like, I'm the village.
Yeah.
I'm the village.
It's me.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think with everyone havingkids later, with more advances
and what can be done at likedifferent ages, grandparents are

(20:23):
not that same village that theyused to be, they're off doing
their own things, being retiredtoo, and it's you can't just
rely on your parents who aren'tworking the same way, and part
of me while we're having thisconversation, it sucks, because
I wonder, Should I have a baby?
No.
No.
No, I'm kidding.
I'm kidding.
No, I do think that all thetime.
Then I'm like, no.
I remind myself, no.

(20:43):
Companies are only giving uswhat they're required to.
FMLA is, federally mandated.
Now, none of these leaveoptions, are because they're
nice or because they, or thecompany wants us to have the
time.
It's literally, you have tolegally give people off for
certain things.
Granted, not having a kid, butyou can't really get anywhere in

(21:03):
the world if you're not giving,parents leave right now as a
company., Ash said, Jamie, canwe fake a maternity leave
somehow?
That was like, basically my workwife from a couple jobs.
And honestly, who was it thattold me?
Was it you, Rebecca?
Someone told me Pretty recently,like I think this year, they
were like, they don't check,just tell them that you're

(21:25):
pregnant.
Yeah, I just learned this fromthe Skamanda, Skamanda
documentary on, I don't knowwhat streaming service, but it
was a woman who lied abouthaving cancer and there was no
way to prove it for a whilebecause of like HIPAA.
And I was like, oh, people couldbe lying.
Honestly, don't think for onefucking second that hasn't
crossed my mind about should Ijust, I mean, obviously I can't

(21:48):
because I would go straight tohell, but I don't know.
You mentioned aside from yourparents, you got a lot of
outside support from likefriends and people like, what
about your spouse?
What was the kind of supportsystem?
Did that take some adjustment orhow did that go?
Were you just like, by the way,today's the day?
yeah.
not my, like, best, uh, movethere, not really having, I

(22:11):
mean, I told him, beforehand, aday beforehand, I'm probably
going to quit my job tomorrow.
He was like, what?
God, I love you.
You're like, yeah, that one dayI took, I just half heartedly at
dinner was like, oh, by the way,this is great, babe, but, I
might not have a job tomorrow.
Yeah, it was pretty much it'sgonna happen.
I'm gonna snap.
No, it's actually interestingbecause we've had two very
different career paths andcareers and career experiences.

(22:34):
when I first met him, he waslike a newspaper reporter, so
he's been through a ton, and hisbackground is in journalism, so
he has been laid off a ton, andthat is actually how we like lay
off proof to our finances alittle bit, so we only really
need, so we didn't actually needall of the income we were
making, which is what they tellyou should do, so then you're

(22:55):
never like tied to your job,because that lifestyle creep
happens where, Oh, I'm makingdouble what I used to make, but
somehow I have no extra moneybecause my life, my expenses
have grown around that.
I will, this won't hit witheveryone, but we were lucky
enough to experience all ofthese layoffs.
Because every time he got laidoff and, the first time was

(23:15):
awful.
The second time, I was like, oh,and the third time, I was like,
oh, I don't care.
and when I did this, it was itwas just like me getting a
layoff.
I, it's my turn now to be theone who didn't work.
And, through, through my job,and I was always I don't want to
say the breadwinner, but, well,I was, but, I was the one who
had that consistent job.
I held health insurance.
I did that and he had, yeah, hetook his time.

(23:37):
He had a few years here andthere like in between those
layoffs and jobs and COVID tojust like spend time thinking
about what he really wanted todo.
Again, like lucky asshole gotlaid off and had all this time
off where he was getting paidand I'm like why can't I get
laid off?
Like I'm, and I'm not likewishing that on anyone because
it, it can be reallydevastating.
You get laid off, but sometimesI was like, I just want to be

(23:58):
the one who this happens to.
That's the point you get,though, to burnout.
That's the burnout thing, love.
that's what burnout is.
It's God, just please let ameteor strike me down.
That's how you know, like,you're already, beyond the
breaking point is when you'relike, God, just lay me off,
please.
I was like, can't I just getfired or something?
Like, why do I have to be such ahard worker and, valuable
employee?

(24:19):
And nobody is ever going to fireme.
My thing is always, God, why doI have to care so much?
Why do I care?
That's the thing.
Because ideally, if I could havegone to work every day and not
cared about the pressure thatpeople were putting on me that
was like fake, I'd be fine.
I wouldn't be burned out.
But I care about my work.
I care about in the workplace,Not necessarily impressing other

(24:39):
people, but doing things thatare helpful and that other, my
superiors want me to do.
And there is just so much stressin that.
you talked about like a highpressure job that doesn't need
to be high pressure, which Irelate to so hard.
It's, I call it Kermit armswhere everyone's running around.
It doesn't, it really doesn'thave to be that way.
There's not an emergency.

(25:00):
Nothing is an emergency.
it's all the same.
And it's like the emergency.
Was net was always likesomeone's ego or someone's power
struggle or something like yesThis is an emergency because I
can't possibly delegate this tosomebody else because I need to
control it and that is where theprime honestly, that is where
all of my burnout came from ofhaving leaders who needed to

(25:23):
control things who Really wantedpower and control and the way
they got that was by making mework on all of this shit.
I could have delegated so easilyto more appropriate people, and
I couldn't because like theyneeded to have their arms around
it.
And that's like fake stress.

(25:43):
That's fake stress.
I was not saving any lives.
They're justifying, they'rejustifying their own
incompetence.
oh, I'm very busy.
If you're actually good at yourjob, you don't run around like
that.
You're just quietly doing yourfucking job.
And not only are you having todeal with that, but you're also
having to do their work because,let's be honest, they're not
really doing it.
No, not at all.

(26:04):
Because they're concerned about,the next thing, the next level,
the next promotion.
How do I make this person likeme?
How do I look good in front ofX, Y, Z and I was a person who
really made my boss look goodall the time I did care so much
and I should have cared so muchabout that, about my job, about
my employees, And once I, itclicked for me and I was like,
oh.
I was always so valuable and Iwas, I was compensated and given

(26:27):
promotions and all of that, but,I didn't have a choice to do
that work or not.
I didn't have a choice whether Iwas going to go above and
beyond.
it was like a requirement to dothat.
That's who you were.
That was your, you didn't have,you weren't disentangled from
your job.
You were, it was part of you,you were part of it and you

(26:48):
didn't know what you wereoutside of that.
No, I didn't.
Of course you had to care.
And I didn't even have time tothink about that at all while I
was doing it, especially with amicromanager or, people who were
always breathing down your neckyeah, I didn't know.
And it, it was really a weirdidentity crisis.
when I left my job I was 36 andI had worked there pretty much

(27:10):
since I was 24.
Oh wow.
God.
And the company that I workedfor, for all intents and
purposes, it's a great companyto work for and there's such
like a strong sense ofcamaraderie.
Wink.
Was that a wink?
No, they are.
A wink?
Oh, okay.
Okay, I wasn't sure.
I worked for a great company towork for and I still burnt the

(27:30):
fuck out.
And I think that's what the,amazing thing is that it doesn't
matter how, like, good yourcompany is.
If they're not supporting you,if they're not pouring as much
back into you as you are intothem, it's insane.
the other thing is, men, whenmen get laid off, Everyone's oh,
that's, that's who they areabout their job.
they have a hard time.
But I've found women have justthe same amount of time, like as

(27:53):
a hard time of oh shit, now whatdo I do?
and putting their all into whothey were at their job.
Yeah.
And women are caretakers, likein so many ways.
And I feel like, oh, like a Chadfinance girl can get laid off
and it's what do I do if I'm notlike increasing shareholder
value and making all this money?
For women, it's I am doing allof this work to care for people

(28:16):
and take care of things at work,and it like, becomes more of a
part of you, at least in mycase.
I'm having flashbacks to Rebeccaand I being on the phone and
being like, I'm just so sick ofbabysitting adults all day.
Yes! Yeah.
I'm work mommy.
I don't want to be work mommy,but no one else is gonna be work

(28:37):
mommy, so you have to be workmommy.
Yeah, exactly.
All the men, too.
Chad needs to be work mommy.
It's time.
Step up, Chad.
He needs to be the one to telleverybody exactly how to do
everything, or I don't know howto set up a meeting room, can
you just do it for me?
I don't know how to print this,can you just do it for me?
No, I just don't know.
You're just so much better atthat than I am.

(28:58):
I've had like close friends usethat on me at work, and I was
like, you have to be fuckingkidding me.
You have to, you're just gonnalearn how to schedule a meeting,
okay?
I don't give a fuck.
Dude, scheduling meetings?
that's just, I mean, it's badenough, period, no matter what
it is.
But that's like, that's thebottom of the barrel right now.
It's disgusting.
I know, and it was like a verycomplicated process, which

(29:19):
again, like, Why is itcomplicated to reserve a meeting
room?
Why do I have three differentprograms to do this?
is this where we're spending ourtime?
Give me a fucking sabbatical.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Aside from being able todisentangle who you are from
your job, you said that like,when you are in the thick of it,
Your goals are not your owngoals.

(29:39):
Your goals are the companygoals.
So there's no personal growthgoal.
There's no, there's nothingabout you.
It's all about basically givingup your entire fucking life to
increase someone's bottom line.
Yeah, and that's, that bugged mea lot.
oh, you're gonna set your goalsfor the year.
And this is like, anyone who'sbeen through this at a large
corporation knows how much of afucking time suck and how stupid
this is because nobody doesthem.

(30:01):
And especially, I didn't realizehow awful it was for leaders
until I became one, and I waslike, this is the worst thing
I've ever done in my fuckinglife, honestly.
Goal setting and writing reviewsin a corporate atmosphere is
awful.
but the goal is for like, howare you going to further the
company?
I think we actually talked aboutthis when we had Elyssa on as a
guest as well.
Just like goal setting and howridiculous it is and I was going

(30:24):
to ask you like have you everworked for a company where the
goal setting there actually waslike was good and had a good
outcome or was used at all?
Because in some cases I'veworked for companies where they
don't even use it.
no.
Like the only thing that it'sgood for is keeping track of
what you've done throughout theyear.

(30:45):
And if you are really good atyour goal setting, which again,
your business goals, we used tohave business goals and personal
goals.
The personal goals were businessgoals too, because they don't
care about your personal goal.
Like you would have Oh yeah,it's improving your skill for
the company.
Exactly.
Improve your skills.
Exactly.
I'll become more confident inthis.

(31:06):
To help XYZ.
Yep.
And just, ugh.
Did you have to feel like youplayed along as a manager?
Or were you just like, you knowwhat guys, let's just be honest
about this.
I feel like that's, that wasreally what did it for me, was
being a manager.
Because I had, I was stuck.
In between wanting to, treat myemployees how I want to treat

(31:28):
them, and then also having totell them, there's all this
bullshit we have to do and I'mreally sorry.
And I would frame it like that.
I think this is bullshit.
Same.
I would.
Yeah.
And, well, that's the millennialmanager.
the millennial manager doesn'tgive a fuck about this stuff,
but like, tells, tells youremployees, I care about you.
We just have to all get throughthis.

(31:49):
Yeah.
I had an employee say to me whoattended a meeting that I
usually don't have.
He's like, oh my god, I didn'trealize how much you, kept from
us and protected us from.
I was like, yeah, correct.
That was my whole job.
And then the work that I had todo, I would do on the side at
night after everyone else loggedoff.

(32:11):
Oh my god, just like a fuckingmom.
You are a work mommy.
God damn it.
Yeah, like I literally would sitthere and oh, it's 5 p.
m.
and everyone logged off.
I can get my work done now.
I would start work early at 7 inthe morning before anyone else
was on so I could just do workearly.
So because I knew the rest ofthe day.
Send your direct reports like aHomer like, oh, you worked
really hard today.
go ahead and go and then likeyou're still there 8 9 p.

(32:36):
m In a good way, like I reallydid appreciate that I had a
great relationship with most ofmy direct I had a great team
Honestly, some of them areprobably out there listening
watching now, which ishorrifying to me, but thank you.
I'm here and it was just like ohIt was so hard to Be what I was

(32:58):
supposed to be for them, likewhat the company wanted me to be
for them.
Everything.
Yes.
If College You Saw Yourself,would she jump off a fucking
bridge?
Probably.
Yeah.
Because I had to answer foreverything.
That's what I say.
well, why am I not getting araise?
And I'm like, I don't know,there's no money for it, but
they make me answer thequestion.
I don't have any idea why the,why we're not getting raises.

(33:21):
I have no idea.
Why, I can't do anything aboutyour salary, but they told me to
talk, they told you to talk tome, so they didn't have to deal
with that.
Yeah, that is ridiculous that,your manager is in charge.
Of your review and everything.
But then, as a manager, I wasnever, sure.
I could say, Oh, I think thisperson really deserves a raise.

(33:43):
or I'm like, Oh, I don't thinkI've actually ever said someone
didn't deserve a raise.
When was an opportunity someonewas getting a raise that you
could be like, Oh, no, theydon't deserve that.
You have to fight to make ithappen.
Yeah.
Yes.
But that's what I'm saying isit's never been like that.
It's never been like, I don'tknow, I think I lost my train of
thought.
So they call that, I learned,no, I learned it's called peanut
buttering.
So I used to have the ability tobe like, yes, there is, but They

(34:06):
took that away from middlemanagers because they called it
peanut buttering.
Peanut buttering is somethingcompletely different.
No, they used that term at workand it because it was like
basically you're spreading ourfunds too thin So we're gonna
we're gonna take thatresponsibility back to ensure
But really what it is like toomany millennial managers are
being like, yeah Maybe peoplework really hard and deserve
raises and giving out raisescome on I couldn't I got to the

(34:27):
point where I couldn't even Givepeople, a satisfactory rating at
the end of the year if theydidn't work above and beyond.
Yes! Just doing their job.
And I couldn't get this throughto people at, like, above me.
I have people on my team who arelike me, who just want to come
in here, do their job, go home,and forget the fuck about this
place.

(34:48):
They don't want to spend all oftheir free time at work thinking
about, what stretch projects Ican do, or what can I do to,
like, give more to the company,or go above and beyond.
It's We, it's created a workculture where you have to go
above and beyond to meet thebare minimum.
that's the bare minimum.
Yes.
And doing the bare minimum isnot acceptable.
That's what's insane is likewhen did we go from doing your

(35:12):
job and doing your job well andthat was enough and that was
like praised now that's justlike Mediocre, like on the scale
of one to five, that's reallylike a three, a four is that you
go above and beyond and do extraprojects.
And it's like, what?
I know.
I had a direct report say to me,like, I want to do this.

(35:34):
And she's like, but like, I'mnot gonna I'm not gonna go out
and get a new job.
if I do this, I'll stay here.
I was like, you can do whateverthe fuck you want.
Absolutely grow that skill.
And if you want to leave here,good for you.
Like you can You should pursuewhat you want to do for your
whole career.
it's okay, but you could tellshe just was like, but it's for
the company.
I'm like, fuck it.
Do it for you.
Yeah, right?
And I think, people who havereally been conditioned into I

(35:57):
can never tell my leader that Imight want to leave or have a
different job.
You can always tell, what kindof manager somebody is by what
happens when you tell them youwant, you have bigger dreams
than the job on their team.
There's like a saying aboutcults, what's the difference

(36:17):
between a cult and a religion?
It's when you try to leave.
And I have had really fuckingweird experiences like that.
telling somebody like, oh, I gota new job, and they don't, my
leader doesn't speak to me forthe rest of my time there.
Oh my god.
also, that's just immature.
Not a thing, Madeline.
You got a great job.
We're so proud of you.
Being an adult.

(36:37):
Yeah, like, where are you goingnext?
Actually, I, that job, I didquit without another job, but I
got, one right away.
cause it, the timing all workedout, but, they didn't like me
telling everyone.
Everyone's oh, like, where areyou going?
And I was like, you're about tosee why you shouldn't have an
open office floor plan.
Because now I can just stand upand tell everybody, oh, I don't

(36:57):
have another job, I just can'tfucking work here anymore.
And I stood up and said that,and then nobody talked.
But that was the truth.
everyone started clapping whoworked there, and the leaders
were like, this girl needs togo.
but yeah, it's, I have had someweird ass experiences with my
leader acting like it's a,Betrayal.
If you want to take a job insomewhere else in the company,

(37:20):
I've been through it where I hadmy direct come to me and be
like, I think I want to applyfor this job because I never
assumed that anyone wanted todie on my team, stay there for
their rest of their lives.
Yeah.
So I was like, Oh, cool.
Like an internal or externalopportunity.
You can come to me because asyour leader, I'm going to help
you with that.
And I want to help you withthat.

(37:40):
Yes.
Wow.
Some people were pretty much,written off.
Because, by, like, my leaders orwhatever, because, oh my god.
They apply to a job internally.
Stop it.
What's wrong with you people?
it's your job as a manager toget your employee to support
them to get them to where theywant to be and go in their life
because it's their fucking lifeand it's not for you.

(38:01):
You don't own them and thatweird sense of ownership and
betrayal again, yes, it's a fuckit's, work is a cult sometimes.
You are, hello, you're in acult.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's crazy to me.
Some people, and there are justlike certain personalities that
can really work for everybody.
And that was very much what Isaw.
I work with someone who is atDave Ramsey.
I work with someone there andtalk about fucking cults.

(38:22):
They got out though, but holyshit.
I can't even imagine.
I can't even Don't they like aska lot of really fucking weird
shit just on the application?
About your personal finance onthat?
And so the people that sheworked with have told people
don't talk to her anymore thathappened to me when I left of, I
was like influencing theremaining employees to mark.
By, like, telling them how muchmoney I made for the job that

(38:44):
they were being asked to do nowthat I left.
You know, when I was stillthere, I was this person's
leader, so I wasn't going toLike, I felt like maybe I didn't
wanna disclose that at thatlevel.
but I was like, oh, they'reasking you to do my job, here's
how much they paid me to do thejob.
And that was a really big blow.
Not for me, but for somebody whowas like, oh, well then you

(39:04):
really shouldn't talk to otherpeople about that.
Now I can't take advantage ofthem! I know.
Yeah, it was all that, and Igot, very painted as like a, you
can't really trust her, causeShe betrayed us.
I, if it makes you feel anybetter, on my last date, I had a
very terrible job.
The women I work with took meout and gave me tequila and then

(39:24):
brought me back to the officeand said, what do you think of
all these people?
Love her.
I know.
First of all, it was catharticas fuck.
but yeah, does she want to comeon the show?
Yeah.
I love this woman.
Yeah.
Burn that fucking bridge to theground no regrets.
Cosmic says, I've been in theposition where the head manager
would ask me to do things and Iended up leaving because they

(39:46):
refused to pay me more money.
Wait, there's more.
The biggest BS excuse I ever gotwas, We can't promote you
because we don't want to losethe work you do in your current
position.
I have heard that for so manyleaders before, and it is,
that's just, that is the biggestbullshit excuse.
Wait, which is worse, that orthem saying, you can take that
job if you take all yourresponsibilities with you?

(40:09):
Oh my god.
I didn't, I never had That'sjust working for free.
That never happened to me, butit happened, I, I worked with
some people who that happenedto, I was like, oh.
You came to this department andall of this work came with you?
that's awful! Why was this agood idea?
And we were saying, again, likewe said last week, the company's

(40:30):
inability to hire efficientlyand effectively so that no one
is overloaded is not yourproblem.
You should not be working forfree.
No.
Not at all.
My favorite is when they'relike, We have to up production.
We have to increase.
We have to scale up.
We got to increase.
scale up.
But it's like we're not hiringanyone.

(40:51):
We're already burnt out.
We're all already overworked andwe're not hiring anyone new
because we have to stay underbudget.
And it's I was like, yeah, luckyenough that I came in to this
leadership position and I had tobuild a team.
So I got to choose what, likewho I wanted to hire, who, what,

(41:12):
not really, like I had to makean insane business case for each
of these things.
Like it would take me weeks toexplain why I needed help in a
certain area.
And then it was like, Oh, we'llgive you one headcount for this.
And it's great, and then it'sthree headcounts worth of work.
Yeah.
I need three.
I know we hired ten people, nowyou're asking me to do the work
for thirty people, of thirtypeople with this ten people.

(41:35):
And that's how it always goes,too.
I'm like, I get it.
Of course you want to scale up.
Of course you want to ramp up.
That's the one I forgot.
Get a ramp up.
Ramp up.
Please.
Please die.
And the trend I've been seeingrecently is they won't pay for
anymore, but they will go hire ateam in India and pay them slave
wages, literally, and make themdo the work of 30 people.

(41:58):
Yeah.
Then everyone else gets laidoff.
I work.
For the company where I, I gavemy notice, stood up and told
everyone that I just couldn'twork there anymore and then they
wouldn't talk to me.
they had I love you so much.
God.
They outsourced half of our jobto the Phil like half of not
half of our job, half of ourwork to the Philippines.

(42:18):
And it was but they were like,oh, you're just full you're all
full team members here alongsideone another.
And it was like the most awkwarddynamic for anyone who didn't
realize what was happening.
And then there was like theother part of The people in the
Philippines would get paid abouthalf of what we got paid.

(42:39):
But that was still, so muchmoney for them that they would
all take these jobs.
And I was like, this is insane.
And then we all had to sit thereand train everybody, offshore,
who was getting paid half ofwhat we were getting paid, and
we didn't even get paid enoughfor this work.
the work that they were doing onthe back end of financial

(42:59):
statements for the country'sbiggest hedge funds and
everything, And I was like,four, five dollars an hour,
maybe.
So they're making you complicitin it, then, is what I'm
hearing.
Yeah, and then I would have tosit there and train them all on
how, on everything, of like, howwe did it in the United States,
so then all of the people Iworked with could just be, I

(43:19):
assume, let go.
So they're, yeah, they'rebringing you into that and
making you part of their dirtylittle idea.
Yeah.
So many companies are doing thatmore and more, and and also AI.
But then it's moral injury.
What Elyssa was talking about,exactly that, like it's not even
burnout anymore, now you'veintroduced moral injury to it
because you're having to goagainst your code of ethics and
who you are as a person.

(43:40):
And they're making you.
Yeah.
And they expect you to, which isinsane.
They expect you to do exactlywhat they, They expect you to
not see what's happening also.
And it's I see that you'retaking advantage of me and all
the people here.
I also see that you're takingadvantage of these people in the
Philippines way, in a waydifferent way.
and like, baiting them withthese wages that are high to

(44:03):
them but still not worth, stillnot what it should be.
No, and just because it's quote,high to them, does, still does
not make it ethical.
No, it's not ethical at all.
Oh, it's 2, 000 USD a year.
It's, that's so much money intheir country.
Okay.
But that still doesn't make itethical.
Yeah.
Exactly.
They're working for thisAmerican company alongside all

(44:23):
of these Americans who aregetting paid not even the wages
we should have been gettingpaid, doing the same job and
needing the same education, andyou get half.
Because of where you are andthey are less than half.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
Last normally for mostcompanies.
It was less.
I think not like my company hadthe I don't know, like they knew

(44:46):
if they offered a little bitmore, they would get a lot of
people working there, Yeah, youjust tell you oh, we won't give
them slave wages.
We'll give them something that'sa little bit better So they'll
be loyal to us.
They would rather stand on apile of skulls slave wages times
1.
5 just burn it all down insteadof being equitable at all.
It's the capitalism problem ofdemanding infinite growth, which

(45:08):
is impossible.
Yep.
Yep and again, I think Madeline,you've done a great job of
showing like, well, we're allgoing to die anyway.
So how about I not do that?
Yeah.
I'm just gonna.
Fuck.
Can you talk about what you havebeen doing since you decided to
stand up and go, fuck y'all,y'all, I'm out?
It was a really weird process.
It's been about a year plus onemonth.
So that I basically was like,Happy anniversary, by the way.

(45:31):
Thank you.
it took a really long time.
I had in my mind that, like, oh,I'm gonna quit and, like, in a
few weeks, I'll be ready to, dothe next thing or, like, a month
or, realistically, I thought,okay, two months because that's
when, my money will run out andit, here's a scam we didn't talk
about, it cost money to have ajob, blew my mind how much money

(45:53):
it cost me to have a job fromjust, if you're commuting, gas,
but not just that, the coffeeyou buy on the way there, the
lunch you buy, the dinner youbuy.
And then you have to pay forall, the domestic work that
you're not able to do.
which, I'm not even saying thatas a woman, because my husband
and I, don't really have a lotof gender roles in the home,
like, traditional ones, thankGod, but it costs so much money.

(46:17):
you're ordering dinner out,you're ordering your groceries
for your Instacart, which is ahuge expense, but when you have
a job, it's like, well, I'mworking so hard, I can't go to
the store, I have to do that.
But, just all of these expenses,and, Child care, dry cleaning,
there's so much.
You spend so much money.
Yeah.
Pet care.
You spend so much money just tohave a job.

(46:40):
The clothes too, especially ifyou work like in a higher level
position or like at a formalcompany.
Yeah.
It's fucking expensive.
I sold my whole professionalwardrobe on Poshmark and that
bought me like months of beingable to not work.
Holy shit! That's great.
You were a well dressed bitch.
I worked in a place where I, hadto wear blazers to meetings in,

(47:02):
2023.
Ew.
Yeah, and, What happened in2024?
I didn't work there.
oh, okay, good.
January 2nd, I quit, man.
I thought you meant like 2023you had to wear blazers and then
2024 you were like, fuck it,stop wearing the blazers and
then you quit.
But like also to be takenseriously, you as a woman
leader, you had to dress me.

(47:24):
Which was ridiculous, but, yeah,no, I made, like, all this money
off Hushmark, that is really abig driver of my income still.
I'm still getting rid of shitbecause you know what you do
when you're, like, oh, you'reburnt out?
You shop.
Do you know what I'm saying?
Hell yeah.
Elyssa wants to know what the,what the men were wearing in
your office.
Well, shit.

(47:45):
Lasers.
Patagonia jackets and Targetpolos.
Patagonia vest over a buttondown.
Old Navy.
Old Navy.
Wait, I don't know.
So, I don't know.
That's gonna be our, that's,that's it.
That's the bit at the beginningof the podcast.
Or that's just, or that's justthe title of the episode now.

(48:06):
I don't.
Or your life mantra.
I have no idea what the dresscode was for them.
I don't even know what my peerswere wearing.
I don't know.
Too concerned about myself.
Listen guys, she was checkedout..
But no, seriously, there were.
it was like such a process forme to realize, the income you
think you need is actually notat all what you need to live.
I thought my money would lastthree months, and it, didn't

(48:29):
necessarily last a year.
I don't want to say that, butit, goes a lot farther when
you're not working.
And, it just, I, it, at thatpoint, like, when I hit the two
month mark, two month mark, andI realized, oh my gosh, My job
was costing me all my money,which is insane.
I started, relaxing a little bitmore, and it took, eight months
to unwind myself from that job,mentally.

(48:52):
It took so long to just, even tojust process and, be on this
podcast.
six months ago, I couldn't havebeen here talking about it like
this, because it took so longto, work through everything and
why I felt burnt out and why Ifelt, Wronged and also like, you
know, because you also thinkabout your own culpability and
burnout, right?
And like What did I do to, toenable that to happen?

(49:16):
staying at one You needed foodand shelter and existing, you
didn't do anything.
Okay, are you familiar with theconcept of the company, the
company town where you have, amining situation?
And so they build up a town forall the miners to live there.
The company owns it and it rentsthe housing to the miners so
they can be nearby.
They also have a company storewhere the miners can buy, like,
all their food.
It's like startups, Rebecca.

(49:37):
Yes, it's basically it's acapitalism fuck cycle of you
need clothes and so you have tospend your money there and by
the time you've done all thethings you need to have this
fucking job, you have no moneyleft.
It's, it is, I like can't eventhink of the examples of all of
the things, but it is wild howyour budget can be so much

(50:00):
smaller when you don't work afull time job, or like a
traditional like office job.
Honestly, it is insane, becauseI can still, now that I'm, like,
not working or trying to, havequick meals in between, a
million other things, I'm like,oh, I have time to, cook
breakfast.
I can buy eggs instead of aconvenience food, right?
Or, for lunch, I can eat realfood, just, and take as long as

(50:21):
I want to make it.
and what you want, what youactually want, not just
convenient things.
Ash just made a really goodpoint about the expense of
working and what you're talkingabout.
You also need like the medicalcare that comes with working a
full time job, like therapy,physical therapy for back pain
that's exacerbated from sittingat a desk, migraines.
And migraines, yeah.

(50:43):
All the care that comes with it,all the doctor's care and visits
and medications if you need itand physical therapy.
It's insane.
My body is so much different nothaving a desk job.
I didn't know that my hipsdidn't have to be tight.
I don't, I, when I was like,allergic to the computer.

(51:03):
I quit my job, shut my laptopfor the last time, and I was
like, I'm not opening a computeragain.
I don't go on a computer, mylaptop every week.
I don't open it.
I don't sit at a screen at all.
And I was like, oh my god, it'sweird to be a human without
this.
It's like my body works.
I don't have, like, all of thesehealth issues that I need.

(51:24):
I, don't need insurance if Idon't have a job.
I do, but I don't.
In a really weird way.
I don't get sick.
I get what you mean.
Yeah.
I don't, because I'm not in theoffice.
with all that shit.
I don't know, knock on wood, Idon't know the last time I had a
cold.
I, like, sleep, like, seven anda half hours every night.
Oh my god, your body has achance to recover?

(51:45):
Yeah, my body's, recovered andit's weird.
I'm like, oh, I don't.
I still have chronic illnessthat I battle, but like my
migraines, but no, I don't like,I'm not run down and I'm like,
Oh, I like flew across thecountry during flu season and I
flew back and I didn't getanything.
And, Your fight or flight isn'tactivated 24 hours a day, so

(52:08):
your immune system is oh yeah, Iremember how to do this.
I've never had a cold seasonwithout getting so sick.
And then not being able torecover.
Cause you take one day off andit's you kind of need a week off
sometimes to like really recoverfrom the flu or something.
And none of us, most of us asadults, haven't ever been given
the opportunity to just, like,be well.
Even if you're off taking, off,if you take a few years off to

(52:31):
take care of a kid, like Yourwellness is not like up your
priority.
I mean, you have a kid, butYeah, you have a, and they're
just like germs.
Once you have a kid.
Germs just everywhere.
sorry.
No, you're fine.
Elyssa, you mentioned oh, youmentioned like your, was it your
Fitbit where it was like the,you saw like the amount of
stress you were feeling like inan actual meeting was the same
as if you were sick or likeworking out or something like

(52:53):
that?
No, it was crazy.
So I have a whoop, which is likea popular, wearable like health
tracker.
I use that.
It's primarily used by.
People who are serious athletes,but it's coming over to the
chronic illness communities andpeople are finding a lot of
value in it.
And one of the things that itmeasures is your stress level
throughout the day and that it,now I'm not a doctor or an

(53:16):
expert on this at all.
I just know what I know becauseI have it, but it's a measure of
like your heart rate and yourheart rate variability
consistently throughout the day.
and so if I go on a superstrenuous height, I would have
high stress level the wholetime.
Where you're supposed to becauseyou are literally putting the
stress on your body.
I can sit in a Zoom call, a workZoom call, and have higher

(53:38):
stress.
Then that physical activity, itis so bonkers.
Are there like studies aboutthis?
I feel like I hope so.
And does that continue to likehaving to come down after the
meeting?
So so then your stress is stillhigh and you have to come down
to do the unwind, like the cooldown to cool down from the
meeting.
Sometimes I like could never getit down.

(54:00):
If I had a whole day of highstress, like you can't, after I
went on hike today, I had, on myloop, I had this big high
stress, Made sense.
I was like hiking and it was alot harder than I thought it was
going to be.
But then when I got back andstarted getting ready for the
podcast, it dropped all the waydown.
and that's pretty normal becauseit's only, it was only measuring
like my physical, my elevatedheart rate when I was moving my

(54:21):
body around and I'm back to mynormal life.
And it's like pretty low again.
like stress is normal in thebody when you're awake, you're
stressed, you're putting somestress on your body at all times
by being awake and being ahuman, but yeah.
I actually really haven't beenable to stress my body
physically in the same way thata meeting would do to me.

(54:43):
Jesus Christ.
And I could sit there for anhour and the stress, it's like
off the charts and it's scary.
But the biggest, What's it likeright now?
How are you feeling, Madeline?
I don't know.
It's probably, honestly, if Ilook at it, it's probably up
real high because I'm, like, onright now and we're having this,
live conversation.
I would consider that normal,right?
if you're on, you're doing aninterview, you're on a podcast,

(55:05):
you want your stress to be high.
But not, like, when you're inevery fucking meeting.
Yeah.
You can't be on like that.
Or back to back meetings, whenyou, don't have that opportunity
to just, step back and calm downfrom it.
I used to have, I think the, onaverage, it was 25 meetings a
week.
Shut.
Up.
What?
Some days I would have nine aday.

(55:27):
So I don't remember what minewas.
You don't even work nine hours!People don't even work nine
hours in a day! What the fuck?
I used My meetings And this islike why middle management,
there's no point because all youdo is sit in meetings all day.
I used to have 25 meetings aweek and if each one was like
half an hour or whatever likethat was the max.
I wouldn't take I wouldn'taccept more than Fuck.

(55:48):
Now I gotta look at how many Ihave.
This is stressing me out.
But that shit, I never,sometimes I didn't have
downtime, it was just like backto back.
And this is remote, I'm talkingabout remote meetings too.
I can't even imagine what it issitting in a meeting room.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
When people are like looking atyou and stuff, can see you, you
can't just turn your camera off.
And you just smell yourcoworkers and visually see your

(56:10):
coworkers and be annoyed by yourcoworkers.
Yeah.
Listen, co worker breath is realand it's so gross, Just the
grimace, the absolute grimace onyour face, right before you said
that thought was great.
That's still, old.
I want to get one, but I know ifI get one, I'm going to be

(56:31):
deeply upset.
Rebecca, as your friend, please.
I can't get one.
Please don't get one.
No, you can't get one.
No, I know.
You can't be stressed out aboutit.
That's going to stress her outmore.
Yeah, no.
Well, I'm just telling you thatstress is probably killing all
of you.
I say that as if I'm never goingto have to work again.
I'm absolutely going to have towork again and find money,

(56:53):
somehow.
But, it's it just, it really, itblew my fucking mind, honestly,
to see how much stress my jobwas.
And a tangible, measurement,data, something that has no skin
in the game, tell it, a robot orwhatever, I don't know, a
device, a piece of technologydoesn't have feelings telling

(57:14):
me, you're fucking stressedright now, and your stress
level's been up all day, andyou're not recovering.
It also, it calculates a dailyrecovery score based on, some of
your vital signs.
Oh, man.
I, and that, you can really feelit, like, when you're, your
score's in the red pretty bad,that's, a, you should really
take some time to, maybe justsleep all day.
My score was in the red all thefucking time, it was working,

(57:37):
and I would just work anywaybecause why wouldn't I?
Oh, Elyssa just asked, and thisis a really good question, do
you feel like you'll be able togo back to work with a different
relationship to your job and jobstress, Do you, will you set
better boundaries?
Do you, no.
Just that face, was that a No, Iwant to like, I want to believe
that I can do that.
Okay.

(57:57):
I think like part of my problemand like how I found myself in
the position of burnout wasthat, like I said, I started
working at this company.
I did take a short break, but Istarted working at this company
when I was 24.
What was your work ethic likewhen you were 24 before you had
any other.
anything going on you were like,yeah, I'm gonna do so good and

(58:17):
I'll just work myself to deathhere And suddenly that's what
everyone knows you have And thenI'm like 36 and I'm like, hey, I
don't want to work like thatanymore.
They're like, give it toMadeline.
Madeline stays late and workshard.
She knows how to do that.
She goes above and beyond.
Oh, I'm absolutely going into mynext job being like, I'm here to
do the minimum.

(58:38):
Like I'm logging out at five,I'm never, like I'm not, or
whatever, right?
Like I'm not doing this shit.
I'm not, I cannot establishmyself as someone who like goes
above and beyond and burnsherself out.
because I think that's reallywhat killed me, and I, in the
end, ten years later, I wasworking with all the same people
who, knew and, had seen me workreally hard, and I was like,
ugh.
I think, yeah.

(59:00):
I see it on Rebecca's face asshe's listening to you, I just
picture Rebecca's She's, tunedout just a little bit and she's
just, thinking of everythingand, like, how she works and
she's, I literally was, like,oh, they figured out that I can
do my job really good and I'mreally fast at it and that's
what happens every fucking timeI go to a job and I never, I,
every job, I'm, like, they'llnever know that I'm good at my
job and then they find out andthen, just in the best of

(59:22):
situations.
Oh, they always knew, even ifthey never told you, they always
knew you were great at your job,but they didn't want to,
compliment you.
They didn't want to, give youthat.
That bit.
They just wanted to takeadvantage of you.
But yeah.
But that's a good point, though.
Like, when you start outworking, you're just like, I'm
gonna do okay.
And then it just follows youeverywhere.
And unless you're a man.
Yeah, unless you're a man.
And then actually, nobodyexpects you to do anything,

(59:44):
which is crazy.
Hard work is rewarded with morework.
Yes.
I was like, yes.
Literally.
I, and I think about this a lot.
I do have to work for money atsome point again, like we all
do.
Like I used to work for money.
Just to be clear, that's whatwe're doing.
I, it's gonna be really fuckinghard to go back.

(01:00:07):
Cause I've hasted to screw them.
And I didn't realize how much Iwas screwing myself by giving it
to myself.
Cause I'm like, I never want todo anything again like that.
I will have to, and I'm going tofigure out how to have to, how
to set those boundaries at somepoint.
I don't know what they're goingto be, like I don't know how I'm
going to do it, that's the plan.

(01:00:28):
Feet pics.
Yeah, well.
Yeah.
We'll see.
I think winter's a good time.
I think this is why people starttheir own companies though,
because they can't bear thethought of working for anyone
else again like this.
This is the whole game.
This is the whole scam.
You get a corporate job.
It is a scam.
Then you can retire.
And if you don't have one, it'sreally hard.

(01:00:48):
And that's how they keep us inthis capitalist machine.
And by the time you're retired,you're too fucking old to do
stuff like go hiking.
Literally.
Literally.
yeah, I'm really lucky to haveparents who didn't wait till
they were retired to do thingsthat they wanted to do.
They did it before they had Andjust, Fucked around forever.
because I had this conversationwith my mom.
They're in Jamaica right now,and she was like Complaining

(01:01:11):
about something and I was like,can you imagine waiting until
you're retired to travel and shewas like no This is awful.
Like I'm so tired like shedoesn't want to deal with like
air travel like and I'm likeWhat if my plane crashes and my
mom has to evacuate this fuckingplane?
And then I'm like worried aboutthat.
I'm like, how is she gonna getout?
she's fine.
You said something yesterdaythat was so beautiful though

(01:01:31):
about like your currentphilosophy that I wrote it down
verbatim.
And you said having your lifefor a moment in time is amazing.
Yeah.
We're all gonna die anyway.
We're all gonna die and youcan't take it with you.
You can't take it with you.
Yeah.
And like how, this has beensuch.
it's really hard mentally.
I don't want to, mince wordsthere.

(01:01:53):
It's really hard and there'sthat little voice in the back of
my head every single day tellingme like I've ruined my life
because I'm like, stoppedcollecting a paycheck and
stopped contributing to myretirement saving.
And that's all from my ownbrain, right?
But I have to talk that littlevoice down every day and be
like, no, like You actually haveyour life right now.

(01:02:16):
my life is mine for this pointin time.
At this point in time.
I've never felt that before.
And I might not ever feel that.
if I have to, keep working.
Who knows what the future holds.
I don't know.
I'm hoping I get rich and famousoff this podcast.
Are there any brands out therelistening who want to sponsor
me?
I don't really buy much.

(01:02:37):
Uncrustables, actually.
we're buying hard forUncrustables.
And Alaska Airlines, actually.
And just like your life isyours, again, that concept is
because when you are working,your life isn't yours.
Your life belongs to the peoplewho you need to buy stuff from
and the people who you have toanswer to and you don't get to
make your own decisions.
And you, when we were chattingyesterday, you said something

(01:02:58):
that like you, you've You'retaking the time to figure out
like what you want to do, butalso you start saying no to
things, like you don't feel thepressure to say yes, which
again, amazing boundaries.
It's, I'm, it's hard.
I gave myself a reset, a lifereset, because I ended up moving
across the country.
before I quit this job, and Iwas lucky in that, in that,

(01:03:24):
like, to double edged sword,because you quit your job and
you have no friends in thisplace that you just moved.
not great.
On the other hand, I quit my joband I have no friends, nobody's
asking me to do shit.
And I did make friends in themeantime, thank God, but it's
very much I've set the tone forthat friendship in a different

(01:03:45):
way, of if I don't want to dosomething that you want to do,
I'm not doing it.
Of course.
in friendships, you should dothat sometimes, if your friend
really wants to do something andthey want you to go, I'll do
that.
But Oh no, you don't have tocaveat.
we are totally pro telling ourfriends, no, I'm not doing that.
I'm not putting on pants.
Well, I'm just advertising Thatis that kind of podcast.
I'm advertising to the worldthat I do things I don't want to
do sometimes, barely.

(01:04:09):
I just said, I only said yes tothings that I really wanted to
do, because I was Yeah.
Fucking tired.
So fucking tired of doing thingsthat I felt like I had to do,
like my job, but also all thesocial commitments.
I remember when we went intolockdown I loved all those plans
being cancelled.

(01:04:29):
I fucking loved it.
It was like the greatest day ofmy life.
When we got sent home, for COVIDbecause, COVID was awful, but I
was like, this is shaking up myroutine.
I don't have to go to thisfucking place every day.
I can like, do this work and Ihad this whole different life
all of a sudden.
I see me and Jamie nodding alonglike we're not two fucking
Tauruses who are like, actuallywe'll just I was gonna say that.

(01:04:50):
I was gonna, I was gonna say astwo Tauruses who are introverts,
we get it.
Yeah.
We're like, what do you meancommitments?
Ew.
Yeah.
I, well, I just, used tooverschedule myself, and I used
to like all of those things, butI got to a point where I was
like, I don't need, I just needmy life and my time.
I'm not, 22 and going to the barand, running from my thoughts
or, my, because your 20s arefucking awful.

(01:05:12):
Awful.
but yeah, I just said, I justsay no to shit.
And it Nope.
Easy.
Nobody's upset about it.
And then it also, one of thethings that I realized, I used
to not say no to shit so then Iwouldn't have time when those
commitments came in or, theplans came in of the things I
really wanted to do.
And I spent so many days,missing events that I really

(01:05:36):
wanted to go to, because I wassick or because I had a
migraine.
And it's oh, but maybe if Ididn't do the 20 fucking things
this weekend I didn't have todo.
I would be okay right now.
Yeah.
And that's the way I've beenliving my life.
I'm going to a concert thisweekend, and I was like, my
friend's Oh, if you, have amigraine or whatever, don't
worry about it.
And I was like, I'm going tothis.
This is the thing that I'm doingthis for.

(01:05:56):
What concert are you going to?
Joy Oladokun.
Who that is?
She's like a smaller I alsodon't know 100 percent if I said
her name right.
but she's amazing.
Amazing, black folk artist whois just incredible a lot of her,
messages and things, I'm like,she got, she's in this struggle,
the millennial girl struggle, Idon't know how old she is, but
she understands that, and I'mgoing to do that, I'm not going

(01:06:17):
to cancel on that because I haveall week to, prepare for it and
if I need to, I have a headacheor I just put myself full of
drugs and I endure, That thing,or go to this thing that I
really want to do and I can justsleep all day the next day.
It's ah.
You don't even have that dread.
that's the thing.
Even if there's something youwant to do at the end of the
week when you're working fulltime in a high stress job,
there's a certain sense of dreadbecause you know how hard it's

(01:06:38):
going to be to get there andthen the recovery after.
So that you can't even, you'rein your head the whole time, not
even really enjoying it.
Yeah.
And it's I used to dreadeverything.
Even the things I liked to do.
Yeah.
Cause it was just like a, Oh, Ihave to go get out of the house
after working all week or goingsomewhere on a Friday night.
Even if it was like seeing mybest friends who I like wanted
to see so bad.
I was like.
So drained, right?

(01:07:00):
I go on errands now, and I'mlike, and I'm like, oh, I ran a
couple errands today, that's allI can do all of Saturday now.
I'm done.
I need to run those errands andget home immediately and rest.
And how great is that?
it is.
It is great.
I don't love it, but I love it.
and I just don't think, I don'tthink that a lot of people who

(01:07:23):
are working understand What it'slike to just live a day without
work or without, that jobhanging over you.
Because I get so little donesome days.
I'll spend, I'll have someproject I'm gonna do, repot
plants or something.
And I'll do that and, a fewother things around the house

(01:07:43):
and suddenly it's five o'clock.
And I'm like, I just spent mywhole day on this one thing.
And I used to feel so bad aboutthat.
if I was working, I could havedone Eight hours of work.
You can do so much stuff.
You can have nine meetings.
And I did one, I repotted oneplant.
But it was so enjoyable.
And I wasn't bored at all.
I was just like, existing.
In life.

(01:08:06):
I don't know.
I would love to just be.
Yeah, I know.
I wanna say like a woman ofleisure.
But I know, like I know that'snot it.
But I'm just saying Yeah.
That's actually what I want.
it's you belonging to yourself.
It's you owning your own selfand not letting anyone else have
pieces of you.
Yeah.
It's you deciding who has thepieces of you instead of them
just taking from you.
Literally.
And like, how my time is spent,yeah.

(01:08:28):
I control how my time is spentnow and it's You can't, I can't
And really Oh god.
Well, in all those meetings youwere in, what did you even, what
did you even do?
you say you get a lockdown, butit's well, but what though, can
you take it home?
No.
Can you use it?
you, it's something that gotquote unquote done because
someone else is telling you,Yeah.
But you just did something, yourepotted plants which purify the

(01:08:51):
air and potentially provide youfood to eat and it's for the
soil, like it helps regeneratethe soil.
Like you did something that wasactually tangible that you could
touch and feel and see theresults from.
And I think that this is whysometimes we see people getting
away from like college andcorporate jobs because it can
be, now this is again doubleedged sword because working with

(01:09:14):
your body or your hand is veryhard.
and there are trade offs there,but doing things with your hands
instead of like, in yourcomputer, like, insane.
I almost, I almost, I almost, Iagree with RfK.
Almost.
When he's like, oh, everyone onSFRIs just needs to go to a

(01:09:36):
labor camp, I'm like, maybe.
But, that's never gonna work.
Well, hold on a minute.
If you take all of us off ourdrugs, we will have that shit up
and running in no time.
It will lead to most organizedYou give us one thing to hyper
focus on, yeah, it could begood.
I wouldn't say that it would begood.
I'm gonna be honest.
It would be efficient.
Like, we would have it fuckingrunning.

(01:09:56):
We have nothing else to focuson, but that would at least be
efficient and run well.
Processes would be down.
I'm envisioning it as, aparadise, but.
I think that's because I'm sodisillusioned with capitalism,
like how bad can it be?
Like I said, smell your coworkers, he looks like someone I
would not want to sit next to ina meeting.
He'd be that co worker.
Oh, yeah.
He's, no.

(01:10:17):
I know that guy.
I've worked with him before.
No.
He's Creed from The Office.
He's like growing his like mungbeans or whatever in a desk.
A lot of the evil in the world,like all the greed, and all the
people, they're all workingcorporate jobs.
this is where the horrors are.

(01:10:38):
And they're like, these fakecorporate jobs.
Nobody needs me, middle managinganything to live or whatever.
I'm just helping this companyrun.
It's not going to make medinner.
It's not going to clothe me ortake care of me.
It's so it's not reallyimportant, but it is because I
need that money.
Exactly.
And I think that's where ourbodies get confused sometimes.

(01:11:00):
Have you started finding, thereare things that you, have you
been tapping into, yourcreativity?
Have you been finding that partof yourself?
Yes.
I, when I, like, when I wasworking, I had this, laundry
list of things I wanted to do.
of all these random things.
These little things like, Oh, Iwant to start an Etsy shop and

(01:11:20):
I'm going to make candles andlike after one batch of candles,
I'm like, Hey, I do makingcandles, but not as a business.
Like never going to work.
I couldn't figure out how toship them.
and I'm sure that's easy forsomebody else so I've I've
tapped into a lot of things andI did all of those things
already that I like.
Always wanted to do but neverhad time for.
the smallest things like sellingyour feet, pictures online,

(01:11:42):
literally.
I did, I spent some time on thatand like, I didn't really feel
like I was passionate about itenough to get into it.
You step in, you step in onecake, you've stepped in all.
Yeah, really.
I was like, this is and I just,there, there was like that
overarching thing.
I just can't imagine anyone'spassionate about it.
That's providing the service.
I do have to say.
I couldn't get excited about itin a way that men online needed

(01:12:05):
me to be, to be like, to makethe money that you want to make
off it.
You can not, you can not haveyour heart in it, and yeah, you
can make money, but if youreally, you really have to sell
those pictures.
thank God my parents know I'mdoing this already, so this
isn't like a weird thing thatthey're gonna listen to this.
They're never going to be ableto figure out how to listen to a
podcast, first of all, so don'teven worry about it.

(01:12:25):
but like, all that shit, I justdid whatever I wanted.
I started an affiliate marketingblog.
Did I do a ton with it?
No, but I did it, and I got itup and running, and taught
myself SEO, and taught myselfcontent marketing, and now I
have that.
I learned how to use TikTok.
I learned all about how to make,I forced myself to, make TikTok,
so I learned the format.

(01:12:47):
which I was never going to dowhen I was barfing because, the
last thing I wanted to do was,like, learn a new skill at the
end of the day.
Or, that's all the corporationwants you to do, is learn some
new skills to benefit Yeah,creatively, I was so shut off
of, like, all of those, creativethings.
I had no drive to do them.
But, yeah,.
I've gotten into a lot of stuff.
I've, started hiking a lot morebecause I moved to Colorado, and

(01:13:09):
then I can, do that during theday, which is great, mostly
because, there aren't, or I cango on all the off time.
I, have an insane houseplanthabit that has, unfortunately,
really taken off.
but I, love it.
I love that.
It's so much time.
I have literally, probably 50 or60 plants in this house.
And it, I, it's, like, takingcare of another animal, but I

(01:13:32):
love it.
And, that's my thing.
I, like, gardened this summerfor the first time.
I always was, like, oh,gardening, I'm never gonna do
that.
And now I'm, like, well, let megrow sunflowers from scratch
anyway.
Let me, come scratch from seeds.
I'm a good gardener.
I grew marigolds from seeds thisyear and I, harvested all the
seeds from them and I'm gonna,it's, very wholesome and I, love
doing that.

(01:13:53):
all this shit that I just, neverhad the energy for I did and it,
I'm probably gonna start a substack at some point if you're
listening, subscribe to it whenI do it because writing has
always been a passion of minebut I, forgot.
Well, that's why we started thisbecause it was like, we used to
like to do things and we fuckinghate it now.
And it's we got it.
We got to get that back.

(01:14:13):
Because at one point we liked towrite and we liked to create.
And then it was like, were youasking me or was it Elyssa
asking me, Jamie, last week?
It was like, what are yourhobbies?
And I literally couldn't thinkof anything.
I think we were talking aboutthat, right?
And then Elyssa was like, I goto work baking.
And you were like, oh yeah, Iguess that is.
But that's what I mean.
Like, I had to be reminded.

(01:14:33):
I was like, I don't know.
I go to work.
And you just listed so manythings.
Yeah.
I, I always talk about how I wasjust telling my partner about
this, like before, like themoment Rebecca and I, we always
wanted to do a businesstogether.
And the moment that we startedmeeting to talk about it, just
to see.

(01:14:54):
It's like my brain just openedup and was like, Whoa, it's like
my brain was in a coma for whoknows how long, probably like
13, 15 years, you know, howeverlong I've been in the workforce
and was like, Whoa, and then itwas like creativity was just
pouring out of both of us andlike I still can't stop.

(01:15:16):
I still feel like so creative.
And I always thought I'm justnot a creative person.
Like, no, I'm just not creative.
I'm a writer.
I'm an editor.
But like, it's not creative.
I'm not creative.
I'm doing personal finance SEOcontent, affiliate marketing
content.
I'm not creative.
But now it's like, wow, now Ifeel like I've seen a side of me

(01:15:38):
that, I haven't seen since Iwas, like, a teenager almost.
It's insane.
I was just gonna say, the wayshe was describing things, it
sounds almost like a little kidexperiencing the world.
Yeah.
That's what it feels like.
Like, just to rediscover allthis shit.
With that little voice insideyour head that told you, I'm,
you're ruining your life.
Little kids don't worry about401ks.
I just highly recommend ifanyone, Can do it and take the

(01:16:03):
time.
I know this is like a reallyweird economy and job market to
do that in and take the leap,which is interesting, but it's
invaluable you gotta getchickens next because eggs are
too expensive, so you're gonnahave to raise some chickens now.
Hey, she's setting boundaries,Rebecca.
Who's eating all these fuckingeggs?
I guess as a person who doesn'tlike eggs, I do not understand,

(01:16:25):
aside from businesses andrestaurants and like bakeries.
Why this is a problem forpeople.
Just eat less fucking eggs.
I don't, like, what do you do?
Eggs are gross.
If you think about them toomuch, eggs are disgusting.
I'm not, like, an egg person.
So, like, okay.
Good luck with those expensiveeggs.
When I think about all day and Ifeel like, you know, Jamie, what

(01:16:46):
you were saying, just yousitting down and talking about
something creatively, like justsitting down and saying all of
this out loud and talkingthrough it is like, Putting all
of it in perspective.
Yeah, and it's like therapeutictoo.
And that's why we do this.
Because we know, we have so manyfriends like you Madeline, that
like By the way, that's what Iwas gonna say, is you and I have

(01:17:07):
to be friends now, so we canhave our, okay.
Sorry, private talks aboutRebecca.
but yeah, we have so manyfriends that, that feel the
same, and it is, it's I'm notsaying, people are, like, just
now, getting burnt out.
But it's, I guess maybe that'sjust the age we're at now, where
like all of our peers, like it'sjust, it's all coming to that
head of like we're literallylooking middle age in the eye

(01:17:29):
and being, and like taking stockon what we've fucking done and
the answer is nothing.
Yeah.
And I think it's just like Wecould have kept the blinders on
a little longer, but at leastfor me, and I noticed this a
lot, COVID changed how peoplethink about systems, and like,
without, without COVID and likelockdown, I really genuinely

(01:17:52):
thought before then, nothing canchange fundamentally about the
way I work, or the way thatcompanies work, or the way, the
way the workforce is, I trulybelieve nothing would make a big
leap like that, And COVID justblew everything out of the
water, like workers have so muchmore power now and feel so like
they have so much more powerbecause they understand that
like they don't have to go tothat office and spend 40 hours

(01:18:15):
in a building.
And that's just like thesimplest thing remote work and a
commute that you're not reallygetting paid for, everybody
realized, they don't have to doit that way.
And it's just because capitalismand companies say we have to do
this.
We have to work in person.
It's Actually, we don't.
My favorite is always We reallydon't.
But that's how we've always doneit.

(01:18:36):
You know how many times I wastold that in my career?
Yeah, me too.
I would just roll my eyes and belike, do you not see that,
you're the problem?
It's but that's how we've alwaysdone it.
But this is broken, or, but thistakes too, this takes so much
longer, it could be so muchsimpler if we just, Yes.
I just don't know.
There's this group, this, thesepeople in the world who think

(01:18:57):
like that, right?
this is the way it has alwaysbeen, so it should continue this
way, and I think this is kind ofthe problem of like, America
right now.
A lot of people want to keep itthe same way, or turn it back a
hundred or fifty years, and Ijust want to stay to them.
When has that ever worked outfor anybody?
Doing things the same way justbecause you've always done them

(01:19:18):
the same way.
In history, when has that everworked out?
And that person has, like, whenhave you ever come out on top?
Resisting change and resisting,new ideas.
Never.
Someone will be like, ooh,actually, I don't, it doesn't
happen.
we're evolving, the world'sevolving, everything is
changing.
let's just get the fuck up tospeed, right?

(01:19:38):
But also what sucks is, yeah, Ithink, like, it's, it's, I think
so many companies did see, well,first of all, I think
everybody's like, oh, wow, it'sokay, people can work from home,
we don't all have to pay forexpensive, ridiculous office
buildings, and, all the stuffthat goes into that, because
even for the company, it's moreexpensive for them to have, a

(01:20:01):
physical location, but theproblem with that is, And even
just now, some of it'shappening.
I know it's already happened,but like, they're changing it
back.
And they're like, okay, noweverybody has to start coming in
again.
And it's for what?
And you know damn well.
It's not for collaboration, orlike to get out of the house,

(01:20:22):
it's exactly what you said.
We've spent all this moneybuying all these buildings, or
leasing all these buildings, andthis is a problem for us, that
we're not using them.
There's no escaping it.
There's no escaping capitalism.
It's inspiring.
Hearing what you're doing isinspiring.
I know not everyone can do it,but at least maybe taking the
time to carve out some of theirtime, or setting better work

(01:20:42):
boundaries, or just trying toregain some of that self and
control back, it's inspiring.
Boundaries for sure.
Thank you for being so openabout it.
We are, thank you for so muchfor taking the time to talk to
us.
It was genuinely a delight.
I love this journey for you.
Thank you for being sovulnerable and sharing it with
us.
And, we Wish you nothing but thebest of luck and can't wait to

(01:21:05):
talk to you again soon becausethis sounds wonderful and I'm so
glad you're doing this and beinga good example.
Thanks for having me and givingme the opportunity to like talk
about this.
Chat was saying they wanted tolike, bottle that energy that
you have.
they were saying like, you setsuch good boundaries for
yourself, and they were like,thank you for doing that, and
Give me some of that, because Ineed to do that better, Just,
who the fuck cares about anyoneand what anyone thinks of you?

(01:21:27):
Just say no.
Yeah.
And if someone's Mad becauseyou're like saying no or setting
a boundary, that's a problem forthat person.
Because why do they care somuch?
Have you ever been mad becausesomeone, cancelled on you?
No.
I love it.
Great.
I don't have to do anythingtonight.
True.
Yeah.
And if people get mad becauseyou're, like, mad Tourists love
it.
Yeah.
at Virgo, I just want to bealone in my home.
Like, I'm mad that I have ahusband who lives here,

(01:21:49):
honestly.
Sometimes the resistance to theboundaries and the people who
don't like what you're doing,just, those people sometimes
have to just stay in the past,and that's a really good sign.
Or just, yeah, cut those, yeah,cut those people out of your
life.
Yeah, good fucking bye.
Oh, you're upset that you're notgonna see me tonight?
Well, now you're never gonna seeme again.
A huge thank you to MadelineChores, you can find her on
Instagram at Madeline S H O, oron TikTok, Madeline We will also

(01:22:15):
include all of her links to, toher socials in the show notes
and when she decides to roll outher substack or her podcast and
we will definitely have her backas well.
And thank you guys for takingthe time to be here.
Yeah.
this was really great.
you guys had so much to say inthe chat.
Like we, yeah, we definitelytried to.
Bring your questions in and likeyour comments and everything.
So we really appreciate itThanks for listening and thanks

(01:22:37):
for hanging in there with us,we'll see you next week

Jamie (01:22:41):
The Burnout Collective is hosted by me, Jamie Young.

Rebecca (01:22:44):
And me, Rebecca McCracken.
You can find all our episodes,plus show notes, at
burnoutcollective.
com.

Jamie (01:22:50):
Follow the discord link on our website to join the
burnout community.
You can also find us on TikTokand Instagram.

Rebecca (01:22:57):
If you're interested in being a guest on a future
episode or have questions orfeedback.
You can email us at podcast atburnout collective.
com.

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