Untangling the Paradox of The Busyness Paradox

As the Business Paradox returns from a quick break, we take a few minutes to answer your questions, take stock of the Business Paradox's first 15 months of existence, and reflect on the time we started a heated hoodie cult.

Come visit us at busynessparadox.com to see episode transcripts, blog posts and other content while you’re there!

Episode Transcript

Frank Butler (00:00):
Hello, Busybodies.
Frank here. We appreciate yourpatience. During this little bit
of a hiatus from another episodeof the Busyness Paradox, Paul
and I had made the decision thatit was time for us to take a
little break. So we could focusin on our work and our personal
lives and deal with all thethings that we're having to
juggle and decided that, hey,it's a good time to take a

(00:20):
little bit of a pause. And nowwe're back. And we're calling
the season two. Now, thisepisode is going to be great.
It's sort of a reflection on thefirst season, we're answering
reviewer questions and bringingup some of the things that have
come up along the way. But wealso decided to change the order
because this is now going to bethe start of season two. We
actually had it we were talkingabout another episode that we

(00:44):
were intending to release first,but we did not so we change the
order. So the episode you wantto Lupu is actually going to
come afterwards. But we areexcited about season two. We're
looking forward to getting thisgoing. Please tell your friends
about the podcast, share it withothers. Rate, Subscribe.
whatever platform you use, weappreciate it reach out to us.

(01:04):
We love hearing from you. Wehope you enjoy this episode.
Welcome to the start of seasontwo.

(01:28):
Hello, Busybodies, welcome toanother episode of the Busyness
Paradox. I'm Frank Butler, herewith Paul Harvey. Good day, good
day. And today, we've got ahodgepodge of things that we
want to talk about answeringquestions or comments from
listeners that we've gotten overtime,

Paul Harvey (01:48):
Which we've never really done before. So we've
accumulated a few recurringquestions, I think that it might
make sense to talk about on theshow, really random one off
questions, we'll usually justrespond by email. But there's
been a few that we've seen, youknow, enough times that we think
maybe you'd like to hear us talkabout them.

Frank Butler (02:08):
So talk about them, we will

Paul Harvey (02:10):
indeed

Frank Butler (02:10):
And I'm going to start with a actually, it was a
WhatsApp message to me from oneof my graduates from the
Veterans entrepreneurshipprogram that we have at UTC. I'm
the faculty director of that ifyou know a veteran who has a
business or is wanting to starta business, have them go check
us out utc.edu/v P. So veteransentrepreneurship program. We do

(02:36):
really great work, I think, butyou know, I'm biased. But this
is from Dwayne and Dwayneactually sent me his story. He
was listening to our 15 HourWorkweek episode. And as from
where this is my favorite part,baileigh roots of all Belrose,
you know, and of course, Europeslash dictatorship. And in
thinking about it right now toBella Rousses, neighbor to

(02:57):
Ukraine and Russian troops aregoing through it to enter into
Ukraine. So when we're recordingthis episode happens to be
around the time of the Ukrainianinvasion by Russia. So very
interesting, but his wife isfrom Belarus. They were visiting
family and friends. And he sentme this this really, really cool

(03:17):
message about our 15 hourepisode, and

Paul Harvey (03:20):
I'll just interrupt and say nothing but love for
Ukraine. I spent a weekend there12 years ago, and was very
touched by the kindness ofcomplete strangers. So it's sad
to think of those sameindividuals going through
they're going through right now.
So Godspeed.

Frank Butler (03:37):
Yeah, I will echo that. I've had nothing but great
experiences with the Ukrainians.
They've been awesome people.
Yeah, for real, it is a tragedy.
So a quick rehash of the 15 HourWorkweek, it was based on the
Keynes, the economy, TheEconomist, Keynes, who had said
basically that, within like 60years, so his great

(03:59):
grandchildren, productivitygains, and this is focused more
on manufacturing, would be suchthat the productivity needed to
work get the same amount ofproductivity from back then to
now would only require 15 hoursof work week, right?

Paul Harvey (04:16):
Basically, by the year 2000, he predicted from
1930, that we would be working15 hours a week because we'd be
so productive. That would be allthat was necessary.

Frank Butler (04:24):
Right? And you and I also went into some other
things like talking about whatis it the fire or whatever the
those who are like super frugaland retire early,

Paul Harvey (04:32):
right, that you can potentially live the Canadian
dream, but a lot of obstaclesexist to artificially make it
harder than it has to be to worka 15 hour right. Exactly, in our
opinion.

Frank Butler (04:46):
Right, you know, especially the consumerism end
of things correct.

Paul Harvey (04:51):
And the busy work end of things and, of course,

Frank Butler (04:54):
you know, in we're certainly significantly more
productive today but yet we arestill working way too much. The
hours. That's that's what it is.
But what's interesting is Dwaynewas talking about that. He
wanted to be able to manage hisbusiness, if at some point his
disability took him to a certainlevel, and you had to be in a
hospital bed, that he couldstill manage his business that

(05:14):
he has. And

Paul Harvey (05:17):
what was his disability? I'm sorry, if you
already said that. I, I don'tknow. I guess

Frank Butler (05:21):
disability actually, is we don't ask, do
favor disabled veterans, but sowe have a wide array of them.
Gotcha. But he did say, if heended up being in a hospital
bed, he wanted to be able tocontinue to at least run parts
of the business from there andrely on others to help them. And

(05:41):
he said that he now works a 20hour week on his business,
generally four hours, three daysa week, and a six or seven hour
day. He does say that, at theend of the month, when he's
running his QuickBooks andreports, it takes a little
longer. But for the most part,he is working on this sort of 20
Hour Workweek. And he said, ashis business grows, it's his

(06:04):
goal to reduce those hours byoutsourcing tasks more. So he is
really trying hard to make thisa business that almost lifestyle
business in a sense, but it doeshave a growth element to it.

Paul Harvey (06:16):
And he seems like he's able to do so if he was
working for someone else. thingsdo seem to be changing a little
bit. But odds are good that hewould not be allowed to work 20
hour work week? No, even if thatwas all he needed. No. So it's a
bit of a sad state of affairsthat you got to work for
yourself, if you want to be ableto try this out.

Frank Butler (06:36):
Exactly. And he does have a interesting
business. He does home healthcare kind of stuff. I'm not
going to give the specifics. Butbroadly, that's he goes to
people's homes who needassistance. So it's a really
great, uplifting sort of thing,too, which is nice. But he said,
he said he was listening to it.
And he wanted to add his storyto it. So he's making enough
money to be comfortable doingthat. But he also said there was

(06:59):
the other part of the podcast,where were you talking about
this, like retire early living aminimalistic lifestyle type of
thing. And he's like, he agreedwith our factors, which is nice
to hear somebody agreeing withsome of the attributes we
discussed, especially living inthe USA, he says, Now, this is
where it gets reallyinteresting, too. He says now if

(07:20):
you go out of the USA, SouthAmerica, for example, you can
live pretty good with a basicincome, stashing money away and
ride the wave literally orfiguratively love that little
bit there. But he's talkingabout Belrose here and he says
where my wife is from, mostpeople make about $350 a month.
And he's like, I'm currentlypulling in a little bit more

(07:40):
than that. And I'm not gonnagive exact numbers but it's,
well, I'll give it a little bitis that about 2500 a month in
salary. He's got pulled out. Andthen he has an owner's draw.
He's also pulling out

Paul Harvey (07:54):
in Belarus. I think. I'm just remembering
living in

Frank Butler (07:58):
Hungary. I mean, I remember visiting you, you know,
it was like, he pulled moneyfrom the ATM and it was like,
Oh, I'm, I'm rich. I'm amillionaire.

Paul Harvey (08:07):
Especially because of the foreign right. The
foreign to you had pulled outlike 100,000 every couple weeks
and like you got 100 grand in mypocket. Yeah,

Frank Butler (08:15):
I remember that.
And then you had this amazingflat they put you in that
apartment that you were in wasridiculous.

Paul Harvey (08:22):
Wow, that was the best place I've ever lived was
that that part was just to

Frank Butler (08:27):
put it in perspective for all of you that
the flat they put him in was offthe main sort of shopping drag
that high end type street thatyou find it

Paul Harvey (08:35):
under a shoot.
Yeah, kind of the Shamsul is aof you know, every every
European Capitol kind of hasthat like made a drag

Frank Butler (08:43):
and he was right there and like, was like was it
above a Louis Vuitton store orsomething like that? It was
right by something like that. Iremember being like a high end
like Louis Vuitton type thing orChanel or

Paul Harvey (08:54):
there was a lot of like supermodels that always
walked in and out of thatbuilding. There's some kind of
like a beauty salon or somethingfor like models before a
photoshoot. Like I'm not kiddinglike that was my life is like
this palatial apartment withthese comically beautiful women
just why parading by everyday Ihate Oh, yeah, things are
changed. Now. I wouldn't.
Couldn't have pulled that offtoday. It's more expensive there

(09:14):
now than it used to be. But

Frank Butler (09:16):
yeah, you could go and walk down the street and you
would literally see a Ladaparked next to a Lamborghini.
And you couldn't see me that thecontrast between the Russian
made vehicle in a Lamborghini

Paul Harvey (09:29):
le communistic era.
What were the word, the ones theTrabant that I was all obsessed
with? Yeah, it seems like rustyUltra bunt next to some very
fancy expensive new thing madeit very interesting for sure. A
country in transition, I guess.
Sorry, that was not relevant toanything that we're talking
about here.

Frank Butler (09:47):
But hey, we want to paint a picture of the
contrasting and changingeconomies. But yeah, so he's
like, on this money he's gotwith his owner, just draw on his
salary he's pulling. He's like,living is cheap, and I'm living
a good life with all The extras.
He's like, Yeah, he has to payfor like flights and such. But
outside of that he's got apretty low cost of living

Paul Harvey (10:07):
in a staggeringly dangerous country for an
American to be living in, butobviously with his, you know,
he's got the local in with thespouse, and he's got the
military accommodations,

Frank Butler (10:17):
right, equally close it up, basically. So yes,
it's possible, you just have tobe willing to readjust your
thinking, you know, again,living that minimalist lifestyle
secret, retire early, what haveyou, is like, Thanks for the
mental stimulation, the podcast,which I love that we're mentally
stimulating others. That's oneof our goals in there. So
Dwayne, thank you so much forsharing your story. loved

(10:38):
hearing it. Glad you are alistener from Bella Ruth right
now where you're visiting. And,yeah, that's pretty cool.

Paul Harvey (10:48):
It's very cool.
Partly because I'm fascinated byEastern Europe in general and
Belarus, other than the CzechRepublic, for some reason. It's
like the only two EasternEuropean countries I haven't
been to yet. And I don't thinkgoing to Belarus is going to
happen anytime soon. So I'mfascinated by that. But mostly,
it's just nice to hear from hearfrom listeners, which we do from
from time to time. And don't beshy folks with. As you can see,

(11:09):
we like to hear these stories.
And it helps us know who'slistening and you know, who's
hearing what we're saying?
That's right.

Frank Butler (11:18):
Now, let me just chime in and talking about
listeners, let's just briefly gothrough the reach that the
Busyness Paradox has gotten, andit's short time on this planet.
So I'm just going to kind of gothrough the list of countries
where people have listened tothe Busyness Paradox, and
obviously the United States, sothank you to all our domestic
listeners. But we have Germany,Canada, France, Australia,

(11:41):
Sweden, United Kingdom, SaudiArabia, we have talked about
being kind of high up on therankings and Saudi Arabia, New
Zealand, South Africa,Philippines, Denmark, Norway,
United Arab Emirates, Mexico,Argentina, Turkey, Switzerland,
Netherlands hungry, so hungry,probably some Paul's former

(12:04):
students or colleagues there.
Japan, India, Spain, Russia,Austria, China, Luxembourg,
Italy, Singapore, Belarus,Ireland, Chile, Cote de Iver, or
Harvard says the Ivory Coast

Paul Harvey (12:19):
Cote d'Ivoire, I think,

Frank Butler (12:21):
yeah, I don't speak French. Slovenia, Cyprus,
Portugal, Cayman Islands, CaymanIslands, interesting. Israel,
Georgia, the country of not thestate, Pakistan, Bahamas and
Guatemala. I mean, holy cowworldwide

Paul Harvey (12:37):
Taking this thing global

Frank Butler (12:38):
We're global.

Paul Harvey (12:39):
Where are you North Korea? Come on, letting us down.

Frank Butler (12:42):
Which is why we need more stories from people,
right? Because we don't wantthis to just be a domestic
oriented podcast, we did recordan episode with a scholar out of
France. I mean, she wasRomanian. So you want to Lupu
where we talked about optimalbusyness. But, you know, this is
not supposed to just be aboutthe United States. This is

(13:02):
supposed to be about work life,at work and life anywhere in the

Paul Harvey (13:07):
globe now don't think it is. But that is where
the majority of our experiencesare rooted. So we can always use
some help expanding our viewoutside just our own country.

Frank Butler (13:17):
We need to hear the experiences of others.
Right. The US has a very, let merephrase the US has a unique
aspect to work right, a uniqueperspective on

Paul Harvey (13:27):
a unique workplace culture and perspective. Yeah,

Frank Butler (13:30):
I mean, you think about it, we're one of the few
countries that doesn't havefederal time off like
requirements, we're one of thefew that doesn't have maternity
or paternity leave, we

Paul Harvey (13:39):
have those things.
They're just not like mandated.
They sort of are but not paidleave is not mandated. Right.
Right.

Frank Butler (13:46):
Thank you for the clarification. So anyway, that's
why hearing from others, intelling those stories is a great
thing to do.

Paul Harvey (13:53):
I'm always fascinated to hear what what the
work life balance norms arelike, in other countries, even
countries that have been to, youdon't always get a sense of that
kind of thing. So that that canbe really fascinating.

Frank Butler (14:05):
You know, I think so much of it too, is you think
about how much time off theyget. You just know that has to
be so good for the mental aspectof things for your family
connections, whatever it mightbe.

Paul Harvey (14:20):
I think the US is starting to realize we've been
on the wrong side of historywith that, you know,
traditionally, Americans havealways felt that they would
rather be paid more and haveless time off. And still, I
mean, there was just a few yearsago, is a study commissioned by
Huffington Post and somebodyelse, even then they found that

(14:43):
in the US something around the50% mark, just over just under
50% said, these are people whoworked a five day work week so
they would work a six day they'dbe willing to work a six day
every week, if it meant a 20%Raise. That's more traditionally
what you see in the US but by nolarge I think the metal thing
guy, I know that the the cultureis shifted to say, yeah, maybe

(15:06):
maybe we've kind of overratedthis work more, get paid more
thing, maybe a bit more time offis worth the trade off.

Frank Butler (15:14):
I really do think the pandemic has helped with
that too, though. Yeah.

Paul Harvey (15:20):
Because now we see, wait a minute, we can have the
best of both worlds, right.

Frank Butler (15:22):
I mean, there's just so much there. That's,
that's been a lot of otherpodcast has originated from. But
we can talk about now we'vegotten questions of how do we
select topics. And I think thisis an interesting thing, because
sometimes it's just random,right? I mean, like the again,
mentioning you Ana Lupu, shesent us her article, and we're
like, we have to have her on.
She's literally written thepaper on busyness.

Paul Harvey (15:45):
I think the background story maybe is
helpful. There. Were I wasvisiting my mother further,
maybe second or third time sincethe pandemic started. And I
accidentally checked our emailaccount. I'm not a fan of
checking email accounts aslisteners, longtime listeners
will recall, but I accidentallyclicked on the tab or something.

(16:05):
And I saw the this email, we hadkind of an interesting subject
line about optimal busyness. Andso I'm sitting there at my mom's
house completely ignoring orreading this article that was
sent to me by you wanna? Andyeah, by page, like, three of
the thing. I was like, Frank, wegot to, we got to get this
person on the podcast. So yeah,that was a truly random
occurrence that

Frank Butler (16:24):
Gratuitous for sure. It was great having her
on. And it was a greatconversation. And I think,
really, we told the story in ourin our initial podcast, of how
we got started with a podcastand sort of what we intended
that to be. And of course, it'schanged a little bit. It's not
always solely on work lifebalance, we certainly talk about

(16:45):
things going on in theworkplace, or in the work life
balance front, but also, othertopics that we just find
fascinating, or that could haveimplications for legal things,
or what have you, right cost ofliving. Every basically work
related things there they aregoing to relate to work, but
oftentimes to we bring it backto how does it impact also your

(17:07):
personal side, right, yourmental health, your, your health
in general, your ability to havedowntime to get your mind,
right, you know, when we talkabout things like Nixon and what
have you. And I think a lot ofit is that Paul and I both read
and get news from a variety ofsources. And every, and we'll
just stumble on something thatone of us will be like, Man, we

(17:29):
have to cover this on a podcast,or in some other cases to will
get sent stuff. That's like youguys have to do this in your
podcast, right? Like, I forgotwhich one we recorded that was
about that. I think one was, oh,goodness, my mind's blinking.
Moral moral injury, I think wasone. And that when he got sent

(17:49):
by two or three people, maybe,yeah, yeah. I mean, it was
weird. Because it's like certaintimes we'll get two or three
people been like, Oh, you got todo this. And we're like, Well, I
guess you have to do that.
Right. So you know, there'sthat. And, again, when we come
across certain topics that wefeel like fits our general
theme, we'll we'll send it toone another and be like, Hey,

(18:10):
this is something we shouldreally talk about.

Paul Harvey (18:14):
And there's some like survival of the fittest,
with the topics to like,sometimes will say, yeah, it's a
good topic, let's do it. Butthen it just sort of doesn't
happen. Like it just neverreally had the wind in its sails
to actually become the topic ofan episode. So I think some of
the weaker ideas sort of windthe weed themselves out that
way.

Frank Butler (18:34):
Yep. I agree.
There's certain things we haverecorded that probably were
pretty good. But, you know, fora variety different reasons. We
didn't go with it. I mean, we'vegot one still sitting there that
we have not done that's onsalary and drugs. Yeah. And
that's, that's, that's thefolder that we haven't saved as
I don't even actually trulyremember the content

Paul Harvey (18:56):
is about drug testing as Yeah, that's right.
It's an expensive thingcompanies do. Why do they do
they need to still do it as muchas they do?

Frank Butler (19:02):
That's right, because we were talking about
how there's all these jobsshortages, and the companies are
scrambling to hire, so thatdropping a lot of these drug
test requirements, right. Yeah,I think that's what we it's a
good topic, and it fits into thetheme of Busyness Paradox,
excuse me, but I'm not sure whywe actually haven't really

Paul Harvey (19:22):
It's...well...some topics don't really
age...they're more evergreen.
And I think that's been part ofthe issue with that one. It's
like, there's not never been anurgency to get that one out. Or
something is like, Oh, we justtalking about something. It's
happening right now in the news.
Let's get this thing out beforeit's weirdly outdated.

Frank Butler (19:37):
Right. And I think that comes to another sort of
end on the topics though, isthat you and I often agree on
what we're going to talk aboutright in terms of like, this is
a great topic. Let's talk aboutalthough there's some that we've
had some sort of like ah, likemoral injury is not one that's
your favorite.

Paul Harvey (19:53):
But yeah, yeah, I was. I was dragged a little bit
reluctantly into that one, butI'm glad we did it.

Frank Butler (20:00):
Do we ever disagree? Right?

Paul Harvey (20:01):
Yes, early on. The question was, you know, I assume
you don't always like agree oneverything like in general, do
you pick topics that you seethings similarly on? You know,
if you if you're not on the sameside of an issue, do you just
not do a show on it? And ofcourse, my response was, I don't
know, if we've never nevertalked. I never thought about
that. And I don't know I would.
It's not a conscious decision.

(20:24):
But we just sort of pick topicsthat we think are interesting
and land where we land.

Frank Butler (20:29):
That's it, right?
We don't have a lot of preplanning going into it in terms
of who stands where on it. Wejust sort of talk through
things.

Paul Harvey (20:37):
Yeah, no, no real scripting or anything like,
yeah, we try that a little bitto have very structured. You
know, we're all about structurelast year, as longtime listeners
will recall, there's a point ofdiminishing returns, or even
negative returns there whereit's just not real anymore. If
it's too planned out. Generally,it's worked out better to just
let this see where things go.
And you know, sometimes you gotto edit out some like weird

(20:58):
tangents that didn't goanywhere. But

Frank Butler (21:03):
no, you're right, though. It's like, when we tried
to overly structure it. Itdidn't feel natural, even though
it seemed like it was on paper.
Through execution, it's just nothow we sort of evolved into the
next idea on it. And it did feelforced, especially because then
we'd have too much conversationleading into it. And then we
lost the good bits when wefinally started recording,

Paul Harvey (21:25):
Then like all the energy was gone. Like we already
talked about this. Yeah. I thinksome of my favorite episodes are
the ones we had said, there's aperiod of maybe three months,
probably about a year ago, Iguess that early 2021, where
maybe five episodes in a row, wewouldn't talk about it all one
would just one of us wouldspring, the topic on the other

(21:46):
one, about 10 minutes before westarted recording. So we would
alternate each week, who did thespring on a topic onto the other
one. The episodes from that erawere I think, some of the best
and others you've never heard, Iguess they just like, they just
flopped. That was kind of anextreme lack of structure. But
let me go back to the originalquestion. Do we ever disagree on
stuff? You know, of course,yeah. I think I have very strong

(22:09):
stance on the, you know, theinherent evil of Libya, you
know, an extra day of thecalendar year, every four years?
I don't know why that's evil,but I'm pretty sure it is. And
I'm not sure how Frank feelsabout that.

Frank Butler (22:21):
I've actually never really given it much
thought. I mean, either to be afree day off for everybody,
because why the heck is there anextra friggin day in the years
to get an extra day of work outof people? That's what it is.
That's what it does evilcorporate demand, capitalism is
the is the evil banks. Right.
It's all pure gamble. And that'sanother thing I think we will
agree on, on themisrepresentation of capitalism
and most of this, but I think,you know, what we do have some

(22:45):
disagreements are things likegovernment intervention on some
things? Like I, I took a prettygood stance on saying that, you
know, I think the governmentdoes need to get involved with
paid time off and making it moreof a requirement. Paul's a
little bit less in that camp.

Paul Harvey (23:04):
And I understand the logic, we both want the same
thing. Just

Frank Butler (23:09):
Well, I mean, it's, it makes sense. It's hard
to trust the government or, youknow, I mean, you think about
it's, it's this huge, sometimesoverwrought, multiple layers of
bureaucracy, it's like, it's,they're not going to always
execute at the highest level,and they're trying to take care
of 350 ish million people thatall have different needs, and
have different concerns and haveto try to address all that. So

(23:31):
it's like, it's just going to bea hot mess.

Paul Harvey (23:33):
But to be fair, it's not that hard. Like, they
don't really have to do much tosay you have to have a certain
amount of paid time off. Job'sdone, I guess. Right. It wasn't
designed to be efficient. Youknow, it was it was made to get
in its own way, deliberately,you know, so I mean, it's, you
mix that with and bleep yours.
Yeah, leave yours. Mostly, theleave your thing.

Frank Butler (23:56):
I think the thing though, the whole thing is that
Paul and I generally agree onthe broader topics at hand, we
think that corporations need tobe a little bit more forward
thinking and how they treattheir employees. I you know,
from a strategy perspective, Ialways say, you know, it's not
profits first. It's you got totake care of your employees and

(24:17):
take care of your customers, andthe profits will come if you're
doing those things. Well. Imean, there's some pieces to it,
but that's tends to be what Itell my students, I've never
been a company's exist for theirshareholders. I've never taken
that stance. I don't like thatstance. I think it's, that is
the reality. Right? Right.
That's what's been taught for awhile in a lot of places. I,

Paul Harvey (24:38):
I mean, but legally, though, legally, you're
responsible this year? Well,you're probably held company,
which is actually not manycompanies.

Frank Butler (24:44):
But you got to think that's only the fiduciary
responsibility doesn't mean thatyou can't take care of your
employees and your customers andbe profitable and take care of
your shareholders. It's muchmore about you're not screwing
the shareholders by lying anddoing things that would be
counterproductive, right? But ifyou're taking care of if you
look at so here's my general, ifyou look at the companies who

(25:05):
always put their customersemployees first, again, I'm not
saying that the customer isalways right. In that scenario,
I'm just saying there's a strongfocus on making good products or
providing good services,excellent services, and taking
care of the people, becausethey're the ones who are
interfacing with the customers,they tend to have above average
returns. It's just a matter ofchanging the focus. There's,

Paul Harvey (25:26):
I would say they have above average returns, if
they survived, like if theydidn't get undercut by some, you
know, crappy Apple still exists.
Right? operation. But the pointis that that, like, drove them
out of the out of business.
Yeah, I mean, apples like thewell, the gold standard for
this. I mean, they had no nobusiness still existing past the
90s. That's the thing they gotthem through.

Frank Butler (25:46):
Yeah, I mean, you got to think you're right.
There's always some pricepressure in some cases, but
there's always this notion of,if you're doing the right thing
for the customers and youremployees are being, you know,
properly incentivized and takencare of to do the right things.
You're also going to innovatebetter, right? You've got you
know, there's obviously lots ofpieces to it's like your
leadership matters. But it'slike, the willingness to, to so

(26:11):
many agencies cannibalize yourown products, right to be
continually moving your companyin the future. So you don't get
undercut by somebody else. Andyou don't get surprised by new
technological developments,those kinds of things. So
broader, broadly speaking,there's that and of course,
Paul's got the the more microperspective on things. Yeah,
with regards to this whole worklife,

Paul Harvey (26:33):
which is actually I guess, I would have assumed
going into this, even thoughknow each other for 20 years or
something, I would have assumed,perhaps, slightly more
disagreement, just because ofthat micro macro level focus
difference, that I would just befocusing on different things.
But yeah, I don't think that'sreally been a source of any, you

(26:53):
know, disagreement. I think partof the part of the thing is, you
know, our whole deal is thatthere's pros and cons to really
everything in management and inwork and in life, really. Like
there's no, how many times havewe said it, like, there's no one
right best way to do things.
There's no five listicle, fivesecrets to management success,
blah, blah, our whole diatribeabout listicles. And such, like,

(27:17):
when you take that stance thatany solution is gonna have some
pros and cons do it. It's hardto really just like have a
heated disagreement when you'rewhen both parties are open to
the fact that neither side isnecessarily 100%. Correct. My
pros and cons are better thanyour pros and cons. Let's fight
like, yeah,

Frank Butler (27:39):
yeah, that's valid, too. Because I think
that's something else that we dodo is we we are open to the
other's perspective, because weknow that we each bring
something different to the tablefrom our expertise areas, right.
And you see what

Paul Harvey (27:53):
happens with politics. When people don't do
that, you know, when the oneside of the other just refuses
to listen to the otherviewpoint. It's like, they feel
like it's dangerous to hear, youknow, the other side, that your
arguments get so sloppy, becauseyou're never defending them.
You're never like, criticallythinking about him. You're just
talking to people who feel thesame way you do. And then you
don't even realize when you'rewhen your whole logic has gone

(28:14):
off the rails because you'renot, there's no checks and
balances against

Frank Butler (28:17):
when did it become a weakness? To actually be able
to say, you know, there arethings that are right, that
you're saying, I don'tnecessarily agree with all of
it. But you know, you are right,that there's something that
needs to be done. You know, weneed to work together on doing
this stuff. Like when does thatbecome a bad thing? When is it
become a bad thing to concedethat you might be wrong? You

(28:38):
know, it's like, I do it a lot.
You know, it's like,

Paul Harvey (28:41):
I was listening to another podcast the other day
episode of the last debate,which is a great show, they had
a guest on who's who saidsomething like, you know, at
what point when did it becomecrazy to be in the middle of the
political spectrum, but yet leftand right. Why are the extreme
ends suddenly like they'recalling us crazy? Because we're
in the middle like everyone'sassuming because you haven't
chosen aside that you're justlike, You're You're nuts or

(29:03):
something? Like when did thenegative be like balanced in
your thinking become the theanomaly and like the things that
makes people suspiciously getnegative?

Frank Butler (29:12):
You know, it's funny, because it's like when it
become being in the middle meanthat you're a liberal to one
side and darn conservative, youknow, it's, yeah.

Paul Harvey (29:23):
Oh, welcome to my world. Frank. Half the people in
the world think I'm a you know,communist agent. The other half
think that I'm like,

Frank Butler (29:32):
I've actually been called super liberal. And I'm
like, That's funny, because I

Paul Harvey (29:37):
read net conservative. Yeah. It's like,
in the same day, I've beencalled super liberal and like,
super conservative. You realizeI'm just kind of in between both
of those things, right. Like,

Frank Butler (29:49):
but that just shows you where the world's
going in a lot of ways. Andagain, you know, I'll say I'll
blame it on things like Facebookbecause I think Facebook is I
think I will put Facebook upthere. With the evils of leap
year for Paul,

Paul Harvey (30:03):
yeah, I believe leap year was a Facebook
originated convention. I know itcame around before Facebook, but
that's you know, that's themisdirection tactics, that's
what they want.

Frank Butler (30:17):
So yeah, I think at the end of the day, maybe
we're gonna have to go back totry the the topics of somebody
picks a topic, and we just getsurprised and go at it and just
do that again for a little bitjust because it's fun.

Paul Harvey (30:29):
Yeah, I think it's good to mix it up. But yeah, I
think that was a fun technique.

Frank Butler (30:34):
I just find it amazing that the more we do
this, though, the more peoplesend us things that they would
like us to discuss, right? It'slike it, you know, it's not just
about us discussing it to it'sabout now they're getting this
out, because they think it'ssomething that's relevant to
their lives, or that they'veseen happen. And they would love
to have more people hear aboutit. And, and we love that that's
sort of, you know,

Paul Harvey (30:55):
that's what I look for in podcast, someone talking
about something that isinteresting to me that maybe no
one else is talking about?

Frank Butler (31:01):
Well, you know, and we talk about what we think
is important to talk about, too.
I mean, you know, we've gotwe've got some episodes out
there that, you know,technically are kind of dots at
the end of the day, right. Imean, truly, they were kind of
duds. And we liked them, too.

Paul Harvey (31:17):
It's not always the ones you think. Yeah.

Frank Butler (31:20):
Like, I mean, which one was it fired by
artificial intelligence was justnot a big popular one for us.
Even though to me, I thinkthat's a really frightening.
Yeah. pewters firing people.
Like it's cool. It'sfrightening. I mean, I just, how
about take take some time offyou slacker didn't hit the
numbers, we sort of, you know,there's like you said, there's
some that just I really feellike our, our quality that just

(31:40):
didn't get the, the listens. Butyou know,

Paul Harvey (31:46):
which actually leads to a question that I had.
Do you have a favorite episode?
And if so, which one? Is it?

Frank Butler (31:51):
Oh, man. You know, I think our interview about wasI
is always a good one. No, that'sI just I think the interviews
are always fun. But, you know,yeah, the boring job burnout was
just interesting to just thatone. Just thinking about it's
like, having a job. So dolllike, what do you do? I don't

(32:17):
know. Yeah.

Paul Harvey (32:20):
That one definitely hits home like and in a way that
most episodes do. But that onein particular. Yeah.

Frank Butler (32:26):
I think though, I've learned I've enjoyed
learning about certain topicsI've never thought about before,
like Nixon, like that was allnew. I've actually taught talk
to people about that multipletimes. Now. It's like, you know,
they just telling about thepractice of Nixon and little
basics, but I mean, that wascool to learn about diving into
the the statistics when we gotup to the presidential election

(32:49):
stuff. And that's been fun todive into learning about canes
and the 15 hour work week. Youknow, I learned a lot more about
that. I think there's a thelearning aspect of it just as
much. And actually, I will saythat one of my favorite things
that we did talk about was abreaking news episode on the guy
who broke his back on hiscommute to work in his own home.

(33:10):
That was gold. Yeah. Yeah. ThatI mean, that was fantastic. That
was the one that introduced theBreaking News episode, our
magnum opus, it was trulysomething we had a record that
in there, because it wasamazing. I don't know what's
your favorite.

Paul Harvey (33:28):
So my personal life the one that I would actually
like, enjoy the most if I wereto just listen to it right now,
I think was shady statistics andthe status quo. And I still
think we got to do more withthat, like, Karen apart. The
Shadle II reported statistics toyou know, to back a certain
perspective on things. But interms of like that one is a

(33:55):
little bit niche in the in asense, not everyone wants to
dive into those kinds of minutedetails. But I think we put the
cult in culture is kind of myoverall Yes, yes, that is a
great one. That one had a littlebit of everything as were the
the the heated hoodie made itsdebut and

Frank Butler (34:16):
that just the hoodies in general. Sponsor

Paul Harvey (34:18):
show oh my goodness to deal with that one.

Frank Butler (34:21):
The, the cult of busyness where we were going to
help you put the cult andculture it we started

Paul Harvey (34:27):
a cult. Yeah, that was the best part. We started a
cult, a golden calf, goldengolden calf. And, yeah, we've
had a bad, bad run withsponsors. But we'll get that
figured out eventually.

Frank Butler (34:40):
No, I want to go back to the shady stats. So I
really think there's a lot ofpower in that episode that might
get overlooked that people kindof get lost in the weeds because
I think we end that one reallysolidly discussing how those
shady stats and it's not justthat they're bad or negative.
It's just improper measurementcan lead to really, really bad
managerial decisions.

Paul Harvey (35:00):
and not necessarily a proper measurement, just
improper interpretation of basedon how things actually were
measured, right. And what Ithink so powerful about it is
that it's something anyone cando. You don't need to have a
statistics background wouldn'thurt. But you can look up the
source material for a lot ofthese things that you see
reported in the news on anytopic. And just compare like,

(35:22):
okay, yeah, 40% did say this,but they only asked this segment
of the population, and that wasconveniently left out of the
article. Anyone can do that kindof thing. And yeah, you realize
real fast, you got to be carefulwho you listen to, and what you
believe,

Frank Butler (35:37):
oh, it just, you know, I think the key and
there's it can lead to baddecision making by managers that
they're going to go after datathat supports what they're
saying. And it could becompletely flawed. And it could
have huge impacts on thebusiness's success or on
whatever, right, and there arerepercussions from that. And so
I just, I think that episode,really, from a importance end of

(36:01):
it is huge. And I thinksomething

Paul Harvey (36:05):
and to realize this isn't like MIT rocket science
graduates like twisting anddoing things that no one's going
to be able to understand like,this is regular people taking
numbers and selectivelyreporting things in a way that
supports what they want to say.
And you as a regular person can,can figure out what they're
doing. If you just, you know,scratch beneath the surface, it

Frank Butler (36:26):
goes back to my disdain for Facebook, and how
people then latch on to thisstuff and be like, you're like,
No, this is anyway. So I guessthe last little bit though, is
talking about technology. You'vebeen asked about, you know, when
you and I first started planningyour your office wasn't wired
yet. You didn't have lights inthere.

Paul Harvey (36:45):
It had been wired.
I had unwired it and not rewiredit. Yeah. So I had, like, three
extension cords running from Godknows where into this room. And
yeah. Yeah, just yesterday, as Imentioned, before we started
recording someone in a work,Zoom meeting, said that, from
what he could tell on the otherside of the camera, my my home

(37:09):
AV setup, from the beginning ofthe pandemic, to the present day
had gone from being like theworst he'd ever seen. One of the
one of the better ones, youknow, not perfect, obviously,
but surely do more of asoundproofing and things like
that. I've learned a lot aboutstuff that I never even gave a

(37:29):
thought to before. Like howaudio gets recorded and
processed and measured andlistened to and all this stuff.
It's really a become afascinating hobby. An expensive
hobby. Yes. Yeah. So thequestion had been, what did you
do to change things? He wassaying, you know, I can see on

(37:53):
my end, like, you can see youbetter hear you better, sound
better. Look, everything'sbetter. But like, what did you
do to make all that happen? Andmy response was, I spent a sum
of money that my wife would killme if she knew about. Well, not
entirely, because as we know,the the webcam thing, if we
found that article that crackedthe code on that, the very best

(38:14):
webcam you have is probably thedevice you're listening to this
podcast on, which is yoursmartphone. That is there is no
webcam on the market that youcan afford anyway. I would say
there's no webcam marketed assuch an existence that can go
anywhere near the but the visualacuity of your smartphone, it's

(38:39):
just like, it's not even close.
So yeah, get one of those appsthat lets you use your phone as
a webcam. And I mean, I wasusing a six year old iPhone
until it died on me. It doesn'thave to be a brand new iPhone.
Like if you got one sitting inyour door, plug that puppy in,
use it as a webcam. You looklike a rock star.

Frank Butler (39:00):
Yeah, you know, I think we've certainly evolved as
we've gotten more committed, Ithink because in the beginning,
it was sort of a hobbyist thing.
But you know, the pandemic alsomade us realize that we're going
to be doing this stuff forclasses more and so for our jobs
that made it easier to dive in.
Yeah, I mean, all this stuffsort of applies to our work side

(39:22):
of things. I mean, I do zooms Ido executive training through
this and all that. So

Paul Harvey (39:27):
yeah, it was a lot of synergy. That just kind of I
think for a lot of jobs butespecially for ours. Yeah,

Frank Butler (39:32):
exactly. I have downgraded the camera only
because it was it was becoming achallenge for my iPhone, because
my other one wasn't working aswell as I needed it to and
whatever and getting it to sitabove the monitor with the
setup. I just gave up I got acheap camera right now but I am
going to probably get a betterone in the near future. But for

(39:54):
them, it's how I roll into

Paul Harvey (39:55):
at the moment but yeah,

Frank Butler (39:56):
I mean, you know, we start with the USB mics. I
like these basic USB mics thatare really good. I mean, they
really are good. They're betterthan your, your camera mic,
they're better than your, youryour, I would say blue yetis for
doing like podcasts or justgeneral kind of

Paul Harvey (40:15):
is phenomenal the quality of a microphone, you can
get it for $30. I mean, they'renot professional grade, you're
not gonna sound like NPR on him.
But for 30 bucks, they that theywork at all is a miracle to me,
and that they actually do anadequate job for a lot of
things.

Frank Butler (40:31):
Yeah, I mean, they were great. I mean, truly the
great, I mean, those mics wereperfectly suited for it. But you
know, there's some limitationsto them, especially with certain
noise attributes or getting thatkind of more professional type
sound. I mean, now like I'musing a, what is it road pod
mic, and I have a road casterPro which is the recording

(40:52):
device that handles all of it.
But I still have a Behringer USBinterface that I can plug the
mic into that I do use forclasses and in such not when I'm
recording. And I can also use itto record playing music into and
such if I choose to because ithas four plugs. And if we ever
do something where we haveguests on site, one of our

(41:12):
places we can jack them intothis as well and, and have a
really cool fun time. So I mean,none of this was at the end of
the day, like super expensive.
The Beringer I think was $150Which probably it was on the
lower end of the USB interfacesin terms of costs and it's
pretty great.

Paul Harvey (41:34):
That's not gonna You could spend three times as
much and I don't think even wewould really notice the
difference on that now that'sthat's just a part in the chain
that is important. But it's notgoing to be as noticeable a
difference is like a higherquality microphone or

Frank Butler (41:48):
something mics definitely I think are the
biggest the road caster has beengreat, or that road mic has been
great. Paul's using now sure isthat

Paul Harvey (41:58):
the Shure SM seven B, which is almost cliche, like
after you do a podcast for longenough, you end up buying a
Shure SM seven B because it'slike the microphone that
successful voiceover peopleoften use.

Frank Butler (42:13):
We're not that successful. But you know, we're
not. We've got a podcast that isglobally listened to but it is
certainly not

Paul Harvey (42:22):
on that's where it's become a hobby for me like
I was using also the Rode podmic and still right next to me.
I love that one. And I've gotanother Shure microphone around
here somewhere. Beta 87 A. And Ilike them all. They're a little
bit different. But this is theSM seven B's the newest and most
expensive. So that's the one I'musing at the moment. But I've

(42:44):
already started like looking atsome other ones started catching
my eye, like the whatever. E 20.
something or other. I have aproblem.

Frank Butler (42:54):
That's gonna say, I think the difference there is
that I'm not as upgrading. I didlike I like to keep it basic.
And if I'm happy with it, I'vebeen this has been like the
setup that I've been happy with.
Because

Paul Harvey (43:07):
you will recall Frank that up until about a year
ago, I was still using a 2007iMac. Well, that's true. I'm not
so upgrading myself. Yes, no,but this is just, it's just
become a little bit of a hobbyof mine. Like, like your, your
collection of guitars is sortof, I think a rough equivalent.
There's another one

Frank Butler (43:24):
coming soon collection of microphones.
There's another guitar coming.
So yeah, it's my birthdaypresent for juniors guitar
coming

Paul Harvey (43:33):
is

Frank Butler (43:35):
my birthday is coming up in March. So she's
like your next guitars abirthday present for me. I was
like, fine. We're so good withit. But no, I mean, I think it
is it's nice to have thosehobbies in. And it is something
that you you notice thedifferences, though, up to a
point. Right. I think like Ithink we're hitting a
diminishing return at this pointthat going from the USB to the

(43:56):
XLR mics certainly was a biggerstep. And then from there, I
think it's the the gains havebeen shorter. I do think the RCP
on my end has been the biggestgain. On my end. I think for you
the share mic has definitelybeen the largest lead that we
could get at that point. But

Paul Harvey (44:15):
yeah, that I I'm still kind of feeling it out to,
you know, trial and error andstuff. But yeah, I think I think
the way you put it is right,like further investment in that
component would be for hobbyreasons. All right, who wouldn't
be even then like the from the$99 rode pod mic to the $459 SM

(44:37):
seven B. I'd be surprised if asingle listener like said home
sounds different. Like if youwere looking for a difference
you probably notice it but Ican't imagine the the average
person

Frank Butler (44:51):
especially the compression of what uh, yeah,
yeah,

Paul Harvey (44:55):
by the time it's compressed and yeah, you listen
to the mp3 version.

Frank Butler (45:00):
But hey,

Paul Harvey (45:01):
don't bring those things up. Well, I mean, my
ability to justify it,

Frank Butler (45:04):
I think I think though, like, if you're
recording content for class andyou're doing higher quality
things, you know, it doesn'tmatter. I mean, it does matter.

Paul Harvey (45:10):
It does say it's listening in Yeah, in real time
like that. It definitely makes anoticeable difference.

Frank Butler (45:16):
So anyway, so that's sort of where it's at.
And if you guys are if there areothers who are interested in
podcasts, the stream deck Oh,the stream deck Oh, yeah, get a
stream deck.

Paul Harvey (45:24):
Even if you're not doing any content creation, get
yourself a stream deck there. Sowonder I

Frank Butler (45:28):
still haven't got one I need to,

Paul Harvey (45:29):
but it's one once you get one, like they make no
sense until like, I just boughtone I'm blind faith, like
alright, all these people areseeing that no matter what you
do, if you use a computer, youshould get a stream deck and
it's like, Alright, I'm justgonna try what the hell yeah, I
would recommend is a one waystreet.

Frank Butler (45:46):
I would recommend studio monitors to not you don't
have to get expensive like Ihave these M audio ones that I
bought them years ago. Now.
They're great. I don't havethose. I definitely recommend a
set of studio monitors.

Paul Harvey (45:56):
So what do you do with those? Like I mean, I know
what you do with them but forlike it really are you with them
if I had them

Frank Butler (46:03):
gives me like when I'm listening to the podcast for
example, it gives me a goodclean sound right because like
listen to Kanzi pick upeverything, but like that's
going to give me more of a abetter sort of base to listen to
things but it also was reallynice. Just if you play music
through it, I just find them tobe really good. Now I don't know
if they're going to be betterthan like, what do you have to
to homepop minis linked up?
Yeah, I don't know if they'll bebetter than that necessarily

(46:24):
just for like music purposes.

Paul Harvey (46:28):
I'm sure they would be but again, is it a
noticeable? Yeah, that's thequestion. I don't know.

Frank Butler (46:32):
i But if you you know, if you're at home, I would
certainly recommend getting somestudio monitors maybe? Or get
yourself some decent cans likewe are actually still using
these Molana I think theheadphones that's what we bought
a original 30 barges by

Paul Harvey (46:49):
z 25

Frank Butler (46:50):
I think I got them in the bundle with the with the
when I bought my bike Yeah, theboom arm everything. So really
are great. There's certainlymuch more expensive, better
ones. I think there's a Sony setthat the clothes backs that are
highly recommended.

Paul Harvey (47:06):
I've been tempted a few times. But yeah, just again,
just for like Hobby nerdreasons. Like, I can't justify,
like these things were greatenergy.

Frank Butler (47:15):
I think I think we did consider doing it when we
were getting bleed through whenyou could hear the other person.
And once we upgraded the micsthat all went away.

Paul Harvey (47:24):
Yeah, exactly. So I forgot about that, actually.
Yeah.

Frank Butler (47:29):
I think that's why we haven't upgraded because they
are great. They're they'regreat. So yeah, I mean, I think
that's a I think we goteverything covered that people
have asked us about and Okay,yeah. Anything else

Paul Harvey (47:42):
break it in the stream deck foot pedal version.
So I will report back. Everyonewill be waiting with bated
breath to hear how having a $89thing with three buttons on it
that you've smashed with theirfeet. Instead of clicking a
button with the mouse how lifechanging that's going to be
gonna be life changing thegoalposts. Yep.

Frank Butler (48:02):
I'm looking forward to hearing more on your
next review. Yes, hey, thanksfor listening everybody. If
you've got any stories to share,please reach out to us busyness
[e-mail] Or was acontact us at Busyness Paradox
comm or

Paul Harvey (48:18):
input input and input yeah Busyness Paradox

Frank Butler (48:21):
input at or you can tweet us at Busyness
Paradox. We are happy to getyour messages on Twitter as
well. Or find us on LinkedIn. Weare the Busyness Paradox on
LinkedIn. We do have followerson there, it says it's growing,
we share stories on there aswell. Or go to our blog, the
busyness paradox.com That wasjust busyness paradox.com.
Although you can go the businessyou can put if you want, I would

(48:44):
highly recommend going to theblog because that's where
everything is. And yeah, I mean,one stop

Paul Harvey (48:49):
shop. Yeah,

Frank Butler (48:50):
it's one stop shopping

Paul Harvey (48:51):
down except for leaving reviews. Gotta go to the
Apple podcasts site to do that,

Frank Butler (48:57):
or your podcast app of choice if you have review
functionality if you're usingSpotify or Amazon or whatever.
Yeah,

Paul Harvey (49:04):
good point is some of the some of the others do as
well, you know,

Frank Butler (49:07):
rate us review us We appreciate it. It's more
about helping us continue to dowhat we do if you're liking it,
let us know. And and let othersknow about it. That's that's the
big thing is tell others to giveit a listen. I mean, we want to
we want to be a source ofinformation and entertainment
for everybody. But mainly likereally trying to make an impact

(49:29):
on people's work lives in thatis sort of a double entendre in
its own right. You know, it'slike work life. Work and Life.
Right.

Paul Harvey (49:38):
I see what you're saying there. Yeah.

Frank Butler (49:40):
Hey, you see what I'm it's kind

Paul Harvey (49:41):
of took me a minute to come around there. Hang her.
I'm with you. Yeah, it's it'sabout the work life and buying
what you're selling.

Frank Butler (49:47):
But it's not just about work life. It's about work
and life. So,

Paul Harvey (49:51):
right. Yeah, we're gonna get nabbed for like
copyright infringement becauseAdam Grant, University of
Pennsylvania has that podcast Ithink is called Work/Life

Frank Butler (50:01):
Yeah. We're not copying the the, the podcast,
we're just you know, using aterm idea. I guarantee he
couldn't even sue for thatbecause I bet he can't turn our
work life. I know I'm kidding.
But hey, you know, Adam wouldlove to have you on the show. So
come on.

Paul Harvey (50:15):
Yep. If you're upset about us stealing your
term...come at us, bro.

Frank Butler (50:20):
We'll be happy to go get on your show and debate
or that. Alright, thanks forlistening everybody books.

Paul Harvey (50:30):
Good day. Good day.
Busyness Paradox is distributedby Paul Harvey and Frank Butler.
Our theme music is adapted from"It's Business Time" by Jemaine
Clements and Bret McKenzie. Ourproduction manager is Justin
Wuntaek. We hope you've enjoyedthis episode, and we'd love to
hear from you. Please send anyquestions, comments or ideas for

(50:51):
future episode topics [e-mail] or
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Finally, please take a moment torate and follow or subscribe to

(51:11):
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