Redefining My Asian American Adoptee Experience and Place in the Podcasting World w/Patrick Armstrong

Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
Hey everyone, this is Randy Kim from the Bunmi Chronicles
podcast. So today I am joined with an old
friend that I know from the podcasting world, Patrick
Armstrong. I know Patrick for about a few
years now and actually to tell you about who Patrick is.
Patrick is a storyteller and entrepreneur.

(00:24):
He is the host and producer of two award-winning podcasts,
Conversation Piece, which explores the city of
Indianapolis through the perspective of its people, and
The John Chi Show, which amplifies and celebrates the
Asian adopt the experience through conversation based media
and storytelling in all forms, Patrick works to provide a new
perspectives on the world and people around us and empower

(00:47):
both individuals and organizations to meet each
other, not with fear and judgement, but with love and
affirmation. So Patrick, welcome to the show.
I am really glad to, you know, hear from you.
It's been kind of a while since we've had a like a, an audio
conversation, so to speak, 100%.And you know, I actually knew

(01:11):
you or we actually knew each other through Jerry Juan from
Dear Asian Americans several years ago.
And he had selected both of us to be part of his panel on Asian
American podcasting and storytelling for Podcast
Movement in 2022 in Dallas. And this is how we connected and

(01:33):
and I've always been a fan of your work.
I've always felt that you've been very frank and honest about
your Korean American, Korean American adopt the experiences,
but also really diving deeper into the political and social
landscape. And I think that is very much
needed right now. But I think the first question

(01:55):
for me or to you is how are you surviving 2025 with only like
not even a few months left? Well, before I answer that
question, I do want to say I'm glad to be here.
Thank you for having me. It's a big privilege and it's a
joy to sit down and have a conversation again.
It has. It has been a while.
We have exchanged DMS and messages back and forth over the

(02:19):
past couple years, but we have not had a chance to do this.
So it's a big honor because you've had some really notable
conversations. And I feel like I feel very,
like I said, it's a privilege tobe able to come onto your
platform and have a conversationwith you.
So thank you. I'm also trying to catch up to
you in the impeccable style withmy dress.

(02:39):
So if you see this stuff pop up on my timeline, just know that
Randy has been influencing me. Oh, nice.
Thank you. 100% How am I surviving 2025?
Well, in 2024, I became a parentand I think this year, him being

(03:00):
a year plus, going on 2 years old now, I think the way that I
have been surviving has been trying to re just like
consistently reorienting myself to the center of him.
And so where I understand that the universe doesn't revolve
around a single person in this current moment, it does help me,

(03:25):
my grounding element, My my, my center of my universe is my
child. So it's very helpful to be able
to have something like that to get me to continue forward.
Because I think there have even in this state been moments where
I've felt like I don't want to. It's like, it'd be nice to not

(03:48):
have to do any of this anymore, like, and not have to live life
in this, in this way. And I think pre parenthood,
Patrick would have really struggled in this, in this
moment with this question to be able to answer this question.
And I think I feel very lucky tobe in the state of life that I
am, to be able to to be able to ground myself when it comes to

(04:12):
getting through each day. Yeah, no, thank you for, you
know, giving us some light as tohow you're, you know, navigating
through it, especially as a young father.
And congratulations on being a parent.
And you know, when I stepped away from the podcast like 2
years ago, it I remembered at the time I was feeling burned

(04:35):
out, which I have been on the podcast game for four years,
which is like if you in dog years, that's like 40 years.
And I was going to say, and I have seen so many fellow Asian
American and by podcasters just leave, you know, the scene.
And at that time I was also thinking the podcasting journey

(04:55):
of where the podcasting Rd. has become a joke, at least in my
opinion, because I felt that there's a lot of rage baiting.
There's a lot of like French right wing voices that have been
infiltrating their waves. And then when the election came
of last year, it really made me realize how much those voices
have been penetrating among Gen.Z folks and, and other voters

(05:19):
who, you know, feel in some waysisolated.
And also because, you know, thiswas during a very different
period of time, the way we, you know, consume media.
Traditional media outlets were basically brushed aside.
And podcasts have like, taken over the center.
Podcast listing is a very solitaire experience as I think

(05:40):
about this and I I wonder. Great point.
Yeah, I, I wonder, like when I got back, I think for me, I came
back into his landscape. I decided to do sub stack.
And I really the sub stack, you know, also host a podcast, which
I thought was appealing to me. And I thought that there was
this need for me along with other content creators to

(06:02):
intercept harmful narratives that are happening against
marginalized communities. And I'm very curious about what
has your evolving look like as apodcaster the past few years,
especially as the male podcaster, because we hear a
podcasters, a bunch of like straight white men, you know,
just having their grievances. I'm very curious about like your

(06:23):
take on what has that world looklike for you as a podcaster and
content creator. Totally.
I think that unlike, so I guess I just actually talked about
this with someone else recently,but when so my whole like
professional experience, there is no like consistency other

(06:43):
than me leaving a job. So I'm constantly, I constantly
bounce between careers, mostly in customer service and sales,
but just kind of all over the place and never really built
something of my own that I had. And so when I started
podcasting, when we started the John Chee show in September of
2020, that became my thing. And like most people, most

(07:06):
podcasters, it can become kind of a slog, I think after a
certain time, especially if you're doing it weekly and you
don't take breaks. Like there is no seasonality to
it. For me, I don't think I ever
felt the burnout of that becauseI didn't have something to fall
back on. The podcasting, the storytelling
aspect, the conversation of it all that to me, that was my

(07:29):
thing and I felt like I had never had a thing before.
My wife is a teacher, She's an educator.
She comes from a family of educators.
And that's like her passion. Like she what has done other
jobs And I'm like, and I'm just like, that's not your thing.
Like you are really passionate about that and it it shows.
And I think podcasting has become that for me.

(07:50):
When I started Conversation Piece, it had been two years on
from doing the John Chi show andI want to create a control over
my own thing. And so I was still really
invested in the conversation aspect of it because kind of
like you and your thoughts rightnow, especially examining the
landscape, it felt like to me when I got the mic for the first
time, I was, and then we were actually getting it, having the

(08:12):
ability to share and elevate other voices.
I was realizing like. I had been.
Kind of just dismissed and stonewalled and and marginalized
from ever being empowered to share my voice in the 1st place.
And so as I had been doing the podcasting, I was like, OK, this
is if this is my thing, like I want to make sure I don't ever

(08:34):
become that roadblock and that in any way.
So where like if I stepped away from the game, is that me now
becoming the roadblock to other voices that might need to be
heard? Obviously, I can look at it from
the perspective of me stepping out of the way, but at the the
same time, I don't I'm not falling back to something.
And so when like 2023 rolls around, 2024 rolls around, we

(08:59):
are Donald Trump gets elected into office again.
You see violent rhetoric amped up immediately, not only before
the election, but immediately after the election.
And then you you. Hear a lot of the discourse
about. The manosphere in podcasting, so
the Joe Rogan's, the Andrew Schultz like again that right

(09:20):
wing like arm of media, of alternative media.
And I think the New York Times put out an article that had like
a bubble chart of male podcasters and like the whole
thing was read. And then there was like a couple
blue dots in there. I think Hassan Piker, even

(09:41):
though he's a streamer, not really a podcaster, I think he
was on there. I'm trying to think of the other
people. Brian Tyler Cohen, I think was
on there. There's just just a couple of
like liberal, like pretty large following folks or, or leftists
or whoever, however you'd like to describe them.
And I came across an interview on a podcast and the guest was

(10:04):
Brennan Lee Mulligan. He's of Dungeons and Dragon of
Dimension 20 fame. And he was talking about this
topic. And he said that for a long time
we were giving people shit aboutstarting a podcast and the get.
And the joke was like, oh God, here comes another podcast.
And the thing that we're realizing now is like, oh, we
probably shouldn't have been saying that.

(10:26):
We should have been telling people to do as do your podcast
because we have now become because, OK, so the reason I
brought up all that stuff at thebeginning was because
unintentionally we kind of like sideline people from OK, these
conversations are necessary in away that like the Joe Rogan's of

(10:47):
the world have been invested into and not just not even a
firm, but just been like stay over here, but just keep doing
it. Don't stop what you're doing.
But we're just stay, just do it over here and we're going to
feed off of that. And so like I totally agree with
you and I, I love that you're stepped back into the space

(11:07):
because 100% we need people to create, step onto a platform,
use their voice in whatever way,tell their story because we are
in the midst of active erasure of communities, of the histories
of communities. And the only way that we make

(11:27):
sure like we will survive it, like all of our communities will
survive it. But the way that we ensure that
we do and that we can act, and Ithink that we can be actively
fighting back against narrative is by using your voice, sharing
your voice, telling your story, and then like collaborating with
or amplifying other people's stories and voices that are

(11:49):
outside of your experience, particularly a Palestinian voice
right now, especially Jewish voices that are in support of
Palestinian life and, and support or reject the genocide
currently being done by Israel. So I think, I don't know, that
was a really long winded answer 'cause I feel like there's a lot

(12:09):
of context in there of the shifting landscape and I wanted
to. Make sure that I was doing my
thing. But it's just like, I, I agree
with you, I think we need as many voices now.
I think it becomes infinitely harder because we we're so far
behind like the 8 ball or whatever the the analogy is when
it comes to pushing back on the narrative.
I think about it as an adoptee and trying to overcome the

(12:31):
dominant narrative of adoption damn near impossible because
that has been the way that society at largest thought about
adoption. Everything is good, It's all
positive, it's all love for overa or over 50 years, near damn
near a century. I would say just a regular
thinking about it that way to push back on that now and expect

(12:53):
it to change in five years, 10 years.
That is that that's tough like. The 100 years of, of narrative
that we're fighting against, the200, the 400 years of narrative
of anti black narrative that we're fighting against will
probably take 800 years to trulyshift and eradicate.
So I think the more people that find themselves empowered and

(13:20):
put into positions of safety andbravery to use their voice, the
better. I really appreciate you sharing
this, especially from a fellow podcaster and what you have been
experiencing too. Because like when I have gone to
universities, when I've done talks on podcasts for the past
two years, I would always ask students what Asian American

(13:41):
students put on mostly. And I would ask them, who do you
listen to? And I'm always going to get, I'm
always going to get that one student that's going to say Joe
Rogan. And I'm just like literally
cringing. And I have no poker face
whatsoever. And so I have this disgusted
look on my face and I'm like, OK, just bring it down.
Just calm down. Let me try to have a nicer way

(14:04):
or actually not a nicer way, buthave an, A, a different way of
saying, or what the value a podcast can bring.
You know, especially when there's so many important voices
like yours and that are not justopening up much needed dialogue
and intercepting harmful narratives, but also like, you

(14:24):
know, staying the stage of ideascreation and, you know, sparking
something. And I think that's something
that I have always been very enamoured by with, you know,
conversations and what it can create.
And but also I think it's very important to know who's doing
the work and given the blueprintbecause I think when I always
hear, well, I don't know who's doing the work or I did not know

(14:45):
ICE was targeting Asian people. Like this is where we have to
like step in and be like, no, this is not true.
This is what's really happening.Here's the stories behind it.
And this is how you can help to support and to like really
funnel in more of that. One of the resources to support

(15:07):
folks like that. And also we do need to support
content creators who are actually doing good work.
I think that's also something that's very much missing and you
talk about your adoptee experience and something to to,
you know, go back to. But I'm very curious about about
your own experiences growing up being a Korean adoptee in the

(15:29):
Midwest, being raised by white parents.
And what were you taught about your own Asian identity growing
up? From your parents?
From your, from your adopted family?
Yeah. So I don't really feel like I
ever remember being taught much about Korean identity.
To my parents credit, I will saythey kept everything that was

(15:50):
sent with them or with us. I have a younger sister, was
also adopted from Korea, not biologically related to me, sent
with us from Korea. So there's like little humbugs,
some pamphleted information, I think like a book, a little
doll. But as far as like those
conversations went when we were growing up, we I would say

(16:14):
there, there really wasn't any, the, the one memory I have of US
ever doing anything like actively going somewhere to do
an Asian thing. I don't remember where it was.
I think it was in Lafayette, butI was probably like 5-6 maybe.
And it was a Korean culture convention and I don't remember

(16:37):
what we did there. I just remember leaving and
feeling very like shameful and uncomfortable.
Like I really didn't feel like I, I, I was wanted to be there.
And I think that I don't remember having a conversation,
but I think my parents saw that into them because they were also
taught by adoption agencies and just the rhetoric of adoption

(16:57):
and families that you love your kid.
And when your kid is upset or uncomfortable, you don't,
especially the 90s, you're not being like, OK, let's sit in the
discomfort. Let's see what that's about.
You're like, OK, let's never do that again.
Like. We're going to forget about
that. And I think that's kind of how
we approached it. And that really set me down the
path of rejecting my identity wholesale.

(17:18):
And so I never felt comfortable being Asian.
The only ways that I ever reallydid that we're just to lean into
stereotype or hard reject stereotype in like a joking
manner where I was clearly beingmicro aggressive against myself,
but it was in order to fit in with everybody else because

(17:40):
that's what they were saying. Like all my friends and stuff.
And again, to my parents credit,like there are really good
people and they like raised us in a color blind way.
We grew up in a predominantly white community, like they
that's the way that they live their life.
And if racist things did happen that were explicit, like that
was a quick, we're going to shutthat down.

(18:01):
Like we are obviously support you.
We're we're stand up against that.
But if something more subtle were to happen or like it came
off or was perceived of as a joke, it was always, well, they
didn't really mean it that way. Or you're probably taking that
the wrong way or you're being too sensitive.
And that was not just from my parents, but from literally

(18:23):
everyone in my life. And those things really, like,
inform the way I thought about being Asian.
And so like, I, yeah, like complete rejection wholesale.
And it wouldn't be until like 30years old and the John She show
and everything that I started tochange that.
Yeah, and also in context like you're in your mid 30s, so it

(18:46):
hasn't really been long at all. And, and I it's something that I
resonate to certain extents because even though I am not an
adoptee, I wasn't raised by white parents, but I did grow up
in a predominantly white community and I was both
Vietnamese and Cambodian. And, you know, like that, the
relations between both countrieshave always been very
uncomfortable. So I always felt like I was the

(19:06):
bastard child. So I thought I had to stay the
hell away from, you know, from alot of my community members and
I wasn't around it. And and I think that like
there's this assimilation of trying to fit in.
And I like you, I was trying to very hard to reject my Asian
identity. I never ate fall until I was

(19:28):
actually after college. Believe it or not, you know me.
Too, And actually me too. So I'm in that boat, but I'm
also not me. So I totally, I totally get
that. Yeah, so I had to think back
about God. I was, I was trying so hard to
fit in with my cool, cool, my classmates who I don't think are
cool anymore, to be honest with you, let's be very honest.

(19:52):
And I wanted desperately to havea validation.
And even during the validation, when I would get, you know, made
jokes about my culture, about myidentity.
I felt the strong need to be like to go with it and just deal
with it. And and you know, I remembered

(20:15):
like even as an intern for NBC Sports Network, I don't know
what they've changed names several times already, but like
I was an intern and the whole marketing department was white.
And I just remembered I did not have the background, the network
to understand this world. And I realized how fitting in

(20:35):
end up nearly costing me mentally.
And I think it took me until gosh, I think I was living in
Korea as an ex pet unexpectedly.And, and that was when I was
around Asian expats, you know, from America, from Australia.
And that's kind of where I started to see, OK, I need I, I,
I think I'm finding some level of belonging.

(20:57):
And then when I got back to Chicago, I felt like I had to
completely change the narrative.Like I was becoming more open
with my queerness. I was becoming more assertive.
Like I need to find a queer Asian space and I need to have
that. I felt like that was that was
what I needed. And I was almost 30 years old
and I'm now like 42. So it's very interesting how

(21:19):
it's very similar there. It took us nearly that long to
start the process of unlearning the colonializing and really
having to shift what our alignments are.
So I think that is very interesting.
So can. I ask you a question real quick.
Go ahead. So when I, so I actually when I

(21:39):
was in college, while I was rejecting my Asian Ness, I was,
I started to become more liberal.
And so like, I, I learned about like specifically like the, the,
the horrid politics of the 80s and Reagan and, and everything
that he did to black communitiesin America, as well as
communities all over the world, learning about from literally

(22:01):
First Nations peoples that taught a class at Purdue about
what happened to indigenous people here in America for the
first time. And it was really it like when I
reflect now, it's really interesting to me to think about
how it was becoming more radicalized in every way but my
own identity. And because I was not becoming

(22:22):
radicalized with myself, my likeallyship or advocacy, I think
was kind of performative. It was pretty performative at a
level because I was not advocating for myself.
So how can I truly advocate for another community?
So my question to you is, like you said, you know, you came
back from Korea around 30 and you're like, I'm going to start,

(22:42):
I'm going to start finding and seeking this out intentionally.
Were you becoming more liberal, more radicalized?
I don't want to. I don't even like the word
radical anymore. Were you becoming more like
progressive, I guess, in your viewpoints in that period
between like post high school, in college and then coming back
from Korea? Oh, big time.

(23:03):
Actually big time. Because where I grew up in the
suburbs of Chicagoland, it was in DuPage County.
It was that the most conservative district county in
the USI mean it's spawned like Henry Hyde.
It respond like some I don't know who the speaker of the
House Ted has. I think Dennis Haster, who's
currently I don't know if he's Idon't know if he's alive, but I

(23:25):
know he was saying in jail deservedly so.
But like it, like I was taught alot about homophobia, especially
during the AIDS, after the AIDS or during the AIDS crisis.
And, and as someone who was closeted, I was so busy trying
to like fit a normative hetero situation.

(23:47):
So I felt like I was trying to be more conservative or moderate
to try to fit in a particular narrative that a lot of my peers
were following. And when I went to college, I
first went to college to DuPage,I was not quite there because it
was still in DuPage County, you know, and I wasn't quite evolved
in my way of thinking. I was just trying to learn how

(24:08):
to have how to be social on my own because I had very
protective parents in high school.
And I had to finally rebel from that.
So I had to learn how to actually talk to people and
actually have a conversation. And so I was learning that.
And then in UIC, University of Illinois and Chicago, you know,
they, I mean, it's a derogatory nickname, but they call it the

(24:29):
University of Indians and Chinese because it has a large
Asian population. White people are in the
minority. But The funny thing is that I
was an English major or I was going to the teaching of English
at the time, and it was really quite white, you know, so I
wasn't around a lot of Asian people in my circle.
But my politics really did change, I think when I went to
the UIC Writing Center. I have been exposed to so many

(24:52):
different activists, college activists.
I had my professor, his name is Luis Alberto Arrea, who, you
know, is a author. And he had spoken about
immigration. And at that time the immigration
movement was starting to build up in the mid 2000s.

(25:12):
And so I was starting to become more aware.
And at that time, before President Obama became
president, he was a senator. So I think that that there was a
growing shift within my 8 withinmy group that was getting.
Sure. Oh, OK.
I was exposed to more ideas backin the day and and I think when

(25:34):
I went to Korea and coming back,funny enough that I actually
worked for a Korean American organization that dealt with
immigration and advocacy rights,that actually started to really
change my politics and undo a lot of harmful thinking and
practices that I don't resonate anymore prior to 25.

(25:56):
So that got, by the time I hit 30, I was already starting to
make a very different inroad. And I was like, yeah, this, this
definitely makes more sense to me.
This is where I feel more compelled and where I feel more
belonging. But I feel like this is where I
and more of myself. I appreciate you sharing that.
And one thing that you said I just want to touch on real quick

(26:17):
because I think it may it put something into place for me.
You said that you were you're, you're the circle of the group
of people that you were in were becoming like we're shifting,
like their politics and their ideas were shifting.
I While I was becoming more liberal, more progressive in my
thinking and viewpoints, like I said, I felt like it was

(26:37):
performative because I was not getting out of my.
Comfort zone of the circle of friends that I brought with me
from high school to college and I say brought with me, I came
back from a different college tocome be in that group
essentially. And so while I was seeing, I was
the only one shifting, if that makes sense.
Whereas I didn't have other people shifting with me.

(26:58):
And then I was too afraid to getout of my circle, full of
comfort in order to find those people that could have maybe
helped me have a realization that I had at 30, at 25 or at
22. However, I wouldn't be having
this conversation with you rightnow had that not happen the way
it went. And like, it's just interesting
to think about. I haven't thought about that

(27:18):
before, but when you said that, I was like, oh, yeah, it's
because I was not. I was hanging around the same
people who were not shifting their their viewpoints.
Yes, yes, yeah. And I think that's something
that I had to start recognizing and yeah, there's a lot of
people pleasing tendencies in meand I think that's very common
in our community, no matter whatlayer of the Asian American

(27:40):
journey that you're on. It's obviously non linear and
but there is a people pleasing tendency like, yes, we want the
acceptance, We want the approvalfrom our families, our peers.
And, and I had a hard time like,you know, like with long time
white friends to really understand because I was
starting to slowly subconsciously break away from

(28:03):
that. And it's like, OK, well, I am
starting to do things that probably will make them
uncomfortable. And I was very scared of trying
to lose friendships. But I think when Trump got
elected, that's kind of like, yeah, I'm going to continue
going further. I'm not going to look back.
And and I wonder about like whenyou think of yourself, you know,

(28:25):
from your adopt the experiences,you have learned so much in the
last couple years. I know that you went to Korea a
couple years ago. I know that was a very difficult
experience. And I'm wondering about how did
it view your relationship with the ancestral homeland?
Sure. This is a very timely question

(28:47):
because the day we're recording this.
News just broke the the president of South Korea just
publicly apologized to adoptees and I had a few months ago
guested on my own show to talk. About my experience and somebody
asked me about my relationship with Korea, like how do I feel
or what do I love about the country?
And so I say all that because when I went back and had my

(29:11):
experience, both experiences. So I went in October of 2022 and
July of 2023. I essentially I experienced what
I wanted to experience over those three weeks in total.
And I realized what I the, the, the, the realization I had there

(29:34):
was that all the work I had doneover three years to like become
bit to accept myself and, and tostart living as what I thought
was the most whole version of myself and had reached the
mountaintop. I was standing on the peak baby
going to Korea. That second time I was ready to
plant the flag and I'm like, yes, we're going to do it.
And then I was there and I came back and I realized, oh, shit,

(29:58):
like I maybe climbed a little hill and like there is much more
mountain to climb. And so as I was doing that work,
that's what that's what promptedmy therapy journey to begin.
And a lot of other things, a lotof writing and stuff that I've
been doing and a lot of reflection on the way I feel

(30:19):
about my relationship to Korea specifically.
And so I, I would describe it asan arm's length relationship
with the, with the motherland, with the homeland.
And I think that the people of Korea I don't really have an
issue with because I don't know them in that way.
And I've not had enough time, the privilege of time to be able

(30:42):
to get to know them in that way,literally physically in the
country itself, like being immersed in the country in that
way. So I, I, I can't say, however,
when I think about the country, I think about being sent away
and not just myself. I think about every kid that got
sent overseas or, or or whatever, whatever happened to

(31:02):
them, and that makes me angry. And so I realized that those
things exist in the same space. I also realized that that anger
in what I feel towards a just general sense of Korea is also a
hindrance, while valid, is a hindrance to me being able to

(31:27):
embrace it in the way that I wanted my parents to so that I
could experience it the way my kid needs or I hope can
experience it. And so like, I'm really
struggling right now to figure out how do I start incorporating
these elements of things that I love Korean culture that I just
myself really struggled to connect with so that my kid does

(31:49):
not grow up with the same lack with the same.
Lack of that. And so the other side, so, so
another side of this coin is when I think about Korea, I also
think about how I think about the concept of Han.
So have you heard you know the concept?
OK, so I know Han means like onein Korea.

(32:10):
Oh, OK, so so Han is a like a concept in Korea.
It also means in like it's notoriously been difficult to
define, but it's like a deep like yearning or like a a strong
emotional pull, generally like amaybe not negative, but like
solemn. I guess I'll I'll say the best

(32:33):
definition I ever heard for it though, was what was a a
fractured identity. Han is a fractured identity
because the country itself is split in two and the country
itself is not whole. And so until we can and and and
everyone. Born of the in the country is

(32:53):
born of this break of our culture, of our community, of
our ancestry. And everyone carries a little
bit of that with them. And so until we can mend that,
and it doesn't really feel like that that seems possible at the
moment, we're always going to carry that.
And as an adoptee, that really resonated with me because I felt

(33:16):
like that was what I lived for along time, was this fracture.
And so when I think about Korea,I think about all of these
different things. I think about the anger that I
feel towards the general sense of it.
I think about this deep yearningfor wholeness because we come
from a history, a place that hasbeen broken apart.

(33:39):
And then I think about like how these things outside of my
control now, it influence what Ido control and my own journey
with the Korean culture and community.
But in the way. That that is going to affect my
aunt, my ancestors, what is the people that come after my
lineage? I don't.
Know lineage I guess. Yeah, my kids, their kids,

(34:02):
whoever, you know, if they happen to have kids, if that
line continues, like I don't want to, then perpetuate that
fracture. You know what I mean?
And so I'm trying and again, it's a struggle because like I
carry that, we all carry that. And I'm trying to figure out how
to how to how to mend that too. Because now it is not just about

(34:23):
me when it comes to how this is tied together.
There is another thread in this loop that needs to be involved
in tying the right knot and so that requires my string to
reinforce itself and and open itself up to things that maybe
we were closed off for or two for a long time.

(34:45):
Gosh, like I feel like you're activating so many emotions in
my head right now because yeah, I think I think of Vietnam in to
some extent with Cambodia. But you know, Vietnam and Korea,
they had gone through violent foreign intervention, you know,
with the US and you know, with Russia and China on.

(35:06):
But like, it's no accident when I think of the adopt the the
adopt the culture, I don't even know how to experience
experience. It was also stemmed from what
happened with the wars, you know, with Korean War, the
Vietnam War and the environment that it created, like, and the

(35:27):
migrate and the force, the migration on top of it.
And it's like, it's, it's like when you talk about going back
to Korea, like for me, going back to Vietnam and then
Cambodia for first time as an adult by myself, I, I had to
think of how did I lose myself along the way?

(35:48):
What was I missing that I'm trying to get back in some ways,
you know, and Cambodia was probably more sensitive for me
because I don't have any family members.
A lot of them were killed duringthe genocide.
So I felt like I was kind of walking into a memorial and I
was telling my therapist, you know, right before that, like, I
don't know if I can handle this kind of weight because, you

(36:09):
know. Totally.
My dad talked about his story about nearly getting killed.
And I'm like thinking, God, I could have been like seconds
away from not existing. So I think about my relationship
with those two countries, specifically with Cambodia and
like how, you know, the fractureof what has happened through
wars, through genocide, through,you know, through very divisive

(36:35):
political ideologies have really, you know, shaped our
behavior, our way of thinking and living in America, where we
are in a place where, yeah, thisis a place that actually pushed
a lot of my our families out or separated.
And it's something that I also have to reckon with.

(36:56):
Like, what do we do with our voice in this day and age?
And how do we, how do we uncoverthe very difficult truths that
we were not taught? And how do we try to heal those
wounds and create a space to heal the wounds of so many?

(37:18):
And I'm very curious about your relationship with both the
Korean American, Korean diasporic and really Korean
adoptee communities, like your different relationships with
each of them and how you navigate your identities, the
intersecting identities. And I'm very curious about what
that looks like for you. For sure, I love answering this

(37:39):
question because I feel like it literally changes every single
time somebody asks me. So how do I, how do I, how do I?
I would say I'm going to start local.
I'm going to go out, I'm. Actually going to start really,
really hyper and then we're going to zoom out a little bit.
I have been struggling. So I have been really, I have

(38:02):
been really good in the last year or so about connecting with
and and building inroads and community with the broader
Asian. Diaspora here in Indianapolis.
That's something I never had that I didn't know existed.
And as I continue and continue to discover the wide rich

(38:23):
diversity of people from the entire continent, including the
third largest population of Burmese folks outside of the
country here in Indiana, shout out to the South side.
I as I've discovered the community, I'm like, this is
awesome. This is what I want and it's

(38:44):
been really interesting because that doesn't always, that hasn't
really always included the Korean American community.
It's been more broadly Asian andor Asian diasporic.
And I say that because it goes. To how I identify and I identify
first as Asian American and thenas Korean, even though I know
I'm ethnically Korean, I generally say I'm an Asian

(39:05):
American adoptee via South Koreaor via adoption from South
Korea. And I say that because like.
Again, I've just been strugglingto connect with that culture,
with everything with it when it comes to Korea, with my own
feelings about just everything about it.
And I realized like when I learned the history of the term
Asian America or Asian American and where that came from out of

(39:26):
the civil rights movement out ofa way of not generalizing, but
really being hyper specific about we're bringing, hey, we
have we're made-up of 50 countries.
Like we're going to bring all our people together and support
you all. Like realizing it came out of
resistance. It came out of like this fight
to be known, to be heard, but also to be in community with

(39:46):
others. I'm like, that's what I, that's
what I resonate with. And so there's Korean in that
for sure. That's just how it's falling for
me now as we scale out a little bit.
The like the wider Korean American community.
I have a lot of Korean American friends.
I have more Korean American friends than any other
demographic of Asian sub diaspora or sub community and.

(40:12):
I think that that just kind of happened because I came to all
of this via or during the pandemic.
And so all of it was virtual. My hyperlocal situation was
nothing because we were all inside.
We nobody was going to places. So I could was really only
connecting with people everywhere but Indiana.
So that's kind of how that formed.

(40:33):
And I've been able, I've been really privileged and lucky to
be able to maintain. Those those relationships
through the last five years. That includes my adoptee
community. And so as we scale out to as we
scale out to like kind of the world and thinking about it,
when I first entered into when Ifirst had like my my moments of
consciousness, critical consciousness about my identity

(40:54):
first started to explore community, the Korean adoptee
community. That's what I was seeking.
And so I find this on Facebook and I am an addictive
personality. I'm also like crave acceptance.
A lot of this has to do with my adoption stuff.
But yada yada yada. When I like my I, I say this

(41:16):
with all love. That was one of the most
tumultuous periods of of this whole journey was that initial
like 6 months in the community because I was learning very
quickly how how many different experiences that there were from
Korean adoptees. I was also learning that there

(41:36):
were two pretty strong camps of anti adoption completely and pro
adoption completely. People are really doing a lot of
great stuff as far as I could tell, and I found myself
interacting with groups who weretelling me I was only going to
be in this community if I would go down one of those paths.
It feels very binary too. It feels like this is Conti

(41:59):
binary. It's either this way or it's
this way. There was no other way.
And so that was not a great experience.
I got really lucky that I met Jerry and I met KJ and I met
Nathan, and we were able to start the John Chi Show and I
was able to build community thatway.
I'm actually giving a keynote next month about how to find
your community in your community.
And that's kind of what happened.

(42:20):
But to answer your question about my relationship like with
the Korean adoptee community, it's really interesting.
I love my Cads and I love like organizations like Con Korean
Adoptee and adoptive Family Network, like the associated of
Korean adoptees out in San Francisco.
I love those folks and I love myCAD community.

(42:42):
I also am not, I personally don't want to be only in my CAD
community, you know what I mean?Like I am really interested in
how do we, how do we continue todiversify and, and bring about
nuance to this experience. And I think for me, especially
because of that initial experience that I had in Korean

(43:03):
adopting spaces, I am just much more interested in, in moving in
that way. And that has made my
relationships just be, just justbe, I won't say at arm's length.
I will just say like within I, Ilove to be in those spaces.
When I'm in, in those spaces andget invited to come in, It's

(43:24):
always a great time. And we always have really,
really incredible discussions. And what we, what I've been
building has, I think it, it, itgoes beyond just the Korean
adoptee community or the Korean adoptee aspect of the adoptee
community, if that makes. Sense yeah, no, this is this is
like a really important dive into like, you know, the

(43:47):
different layers of each of these communities, but also like
getting more light about what the Korean adoptee looks like
because because it's not like this one size fits saw and I
think that's something that we have to keep telling ourselves
with any community, you know, like it's not a
one-size-fits-all mentality. I mean there's so many
intersecting backgrounds identities that play into it.

(44:07):
What is disability, queerness, trans, multi different
multiracial experiences. And yeah, I, I think about, I
think about like how this has always like where trauma gets

(44:29):
brought up quite a bit like intothese spaces that like, I'll
give you an example. I think when I first started
getting involved with Cambodian community, like nearly a decade
ago, I went to AI, was invited to a Cambodian New Year's party
in April because we celebrate Cambodian New Year's during that
time. And next thing you know, like I

(44:51):
started seeing people. I, this was my first time being
at an event like this in a really long time.
And I think all of a sudden it really triggered me.
And I was like, you know, volunteering.
I was actually like, you know, getting the table set and next
thing I was like, I have to leave.
I literally had to leave. I literally ran out and I just
started crying. And I was like, I don't know

(45:13):
what to do. I, I feel like, like, I feel
like my past is coming back to haunt me.
Like this whole reminder that I was not enough that I couldn't
speak. And I was terrified of seeing
people that I knew from the community finally seeing me
after like a decade. And so I was absolutely
terrified. And I had a friend who basically
comforted me, called me and was convinced me to come back.

(45:34):
And I eventually did. And it turned out OK.
But I need to realize how much that I had to unpack before
stepping into a spaces. And also the power of having a
friend that really understands and gets you.
And I think that's also very important to name too.

(45:55):
So it's. 100%. Yeah.
Do you feel that way when you gointo like Korean spaces or Asian
American spaces where you're like, shit, this, this is way,
this is too much for me. I I got to leave, you know?
100% they're, I will say more soin adoptee spaces than like
Korean or Asian American spaces,like sometimes in adoptee

(46:15):
spaces. And it is, I will say the
majority of it has to do with some form of trauma being
shared. Like there are sometimes where
it's just like this is too much,like this is way too much.
And I got to go and I will all, I will say that because I will
always empower someone to do thesame thing.
If, if we, if I was given a, if I was up on, if I was at the con

(46:37):
conference and I was doing a, a panel or I was doing something
up on stage or something where there was an audience and
somebody had to leave because itwas too much.
I would never be upset at that person.
I would if anything, I'd be like, get out of here, like go,
go, go wherever you need to go. I will help you, whatever that
looks like. Because we all handle and react
to stuff differently. And I think the, the, the

(47:00):
fallacy of community sometimes is that we want to generalize
the way that we react and, and, and acted by things.
And I think that I think the fallacy of community sometimes
is that we like to generalize the way that we are impacted by
something. And we like to look at someone
who has a, a differing reaction as being an outlier instead of

(47:25):
affirming them in their reactionand meeting them with just like
a listening ear in love. I think a lot of times we, you,
we are informed by our own trauma and our and the harm done
to us. And then we have bias and
judgement when we meet other people in the way that they
were. They react to something.
And it's really can be really difficult to set that aside and

(47:50):
meet someone in that space. But I think especially because
we come from a community experience or we come from a
lived experience that is rooted in separation from family at the
start, I think it, it's kind of it kind of behooves people who
have been in the community, I think to be very aware of that.
And I think what, what what can be very disheartening sometimes

(48:14):
in adoptee spaces, but in any space is when someone who is
quote, UN quote, a veteran in this, in this arena is actually
the person that perpetuates the most harm.
And I think like that can be a really difficult thing to
contend with because those folksare generally ones that get to
that end up touching like new people first.

(48:37):
They they, they're because they're visible, they're loud.
They generally make sense to people who are coming to ideas
for the first time. I mean, you can look at right
wing politics like we were talked about at the beginning,
like because some people who have felt marginalized, who have
felt isolated, wild things can be justified in your brain.

(48:59):
The wildest thing you can justify in your mind if somebody
else is saying it and it makes sense coming out of their mouth
and you're not looking at it anyfurther than just what's being
said at face value. And so like, and that's a
problem. Like that's a big problem and
it, and it becomes an infinitelymore of an issue when people are

(49:19):
actively like operating in that way in community.
I don't think that that's the case most of the time in spaces
that I operate in, but I would be lying if I said that it
wasn't happening at all. So I think that's what I think
when I, when I'm approaching these spaces, when I feel like I
can become overwhelmed because Ivery much can be, I have gotten

(49:44):
very comfortable in being like, I'm going to leave.
And I would always empower somebody to do that too, and
never have to explain or justify.
Yeah, I think it's very, very important to think about how do
you gracefully exit out of the situation and be like, look, I
this is not my time yet. And also like as a person with a
platform, as you with a platform, I also feel especially

(50:05):
with the privileges that I have have have had, I also feel it's
very important to also decenter your ego and really pay its
close attention to the people that are impacted and just give
them space to talk, ask questions, really be attuned to
their experiences. Because like, like, I do think

(50:27):
that there is a problem when people with bigger platforms
tend to ignore or ignore the nuances of our community.
And I do think there's a problem.
I don't want to spend time naming names.
I don't think I need to do that.But I do think that there's a
lot of that that really needs tobe reined in.
And how do we model different ways?

(50:49):
And that's not to say that our way is the right way.
I feel like we also have to be open to different avenues and
different methods and also different nuances that people
come with that we, you know, have to be very mindful of.
And this is something that I've always respected about you
because I think that that you have always been very aware and
continue to be aware of your privilege and the way you

(51:11):
communicate with folks. I know like for the Korean
culture these days, it's got to feel very disorienting when you
see non Korean people really getinto the K pop.
And I'm very curious to know what it does to a person like
you in a sense, because like, assomeone that's trying to, you

(51:32):
know, be more comfortable and myVietnamese and Cambodian
identity and, you know, Vietnamese is more like the V
pop culture has not taken off yet.
But I know that when it comes tofood, everyone talks about, oh,
yeah, let's go get some banmi orlet's get some FA, you know,
from non Vietnamese people. It's almost very casual.
And like, maybe 20 years ago, I would have just been like, wow,

(51:53):
I would never have guessed that.But now when you've seen this
influx of K pop K drama, what does that feel to you when you
start seeing that? You know when you're seeing it
from non Korean folks that are consuming it.
That's a great question. I, I love it for the creators,

(52:15):
the creatives who are getting this kind of exposure.
I think that's awesome. And I think we need it just from
an entertainment perspective. Like there's a lot of cool stuff
that's made outside of America. Like we need to be experiencing
that as well. I think when, so I think when I
encounter folks who are consuming Korean culture in the

(52:37):
way that they are right now, whoare not themselves Korean, it
makes me think about experiencesthat I've had where so I, I've
been a bartender at a lot of different places, But like, so
a, not a common occurrence that I would have when I was a
bartender was somebody would come up and asked me where I was
from classic Asian situation. So I would share and then they

(53:04):
would inevitably I would say I'mfrom Korea and they would
inevitably say, Oh well, do you speak Korean or like, have you
been to Korea or some sort of question about Korean?
And then I would have to give them the, a truncated version of
the I'm adopted. So I don't know.
I grew up in a white family, yada, yada, yada.
And then one of two things wouldhappen.
They would either become the arbiter and expert on all things

(53:27):
Korea and would be very upset that I have never been to and I
needed to go. Or they would not understand
that me being adopted and my like what I had just quickly
explained did not make me the expert on Korean culture and
would continually ask me questions about Korea that I was
not equipped to answer. And so that is kind of what I

(53:48):
think about when I think about the way people are consuming
Korean pop culture right now. And I also realized that that is
my one very influenced perspective.
I don't think that it's AI, don't necessarily think it's a
bad thing. I do think that we could
probably draw some parallels to the way that non black people

(54:11):
appropriate black pop culture orhave appropriated black culture
and basically every single medium in form.
I think people are a little bit more respectful and a little
less appropriative with it at with Korean culture than they
are with black culture. However, I do, I, I can't help
but think about some sort of appropriative aspect to it and

(54:32):
it always puts me back into those spaces because I still am
not the expert on Korean stuff and I still struggle with that.
And so I think about that. And then one last thing I'll add
1/3 point is just like I do likeit because it maybe makes it
easier for me to introduce my kids Korean stuff in that way.

(54:53):
And so we can kind of go into ittogether, which I know adoptees
who are parents have approached it in that way.
And it's been really, really impactful and fun for people
outside of their circle like myself to be able to experience
and see secondhand. So.
Yeah, and I think it can be so frustrating when you get the
where are you from and then thinking to yourself, OK, what's

(55:16):
it, what's it to this person? And I think for me, I view it
with a lot of suspicion, especially as I've gotten older.
I'm also also, I think I think medication lately because it has
gotten me very sassy and very mouthy.
So I'm more like, yeah, so what's your point?
What what do you want to know? I mean, if I go say Vietnamese
before I even say it's like, what's your relationship to it?

(55:36):
What's your curiosity? Because if, because if you're
going to say like, well, I eat fava, well then good for you.
So does so many other people. So tell me something that I
don't know, you know? And I and I think that I get
some of the fierceness from likewatching old Madonna interviews
and Grace Jones. And I feel like, yeah, I want to
beat them. And I'm going to, I mean, I may
not ever beat their level, but Iwant to get some of that.

(55:59):
And I feel like that's me takingback my identity that I felt was
stolen from me and you and yes, and I think that's part of the
anger that I have sometimes thatI go with.
But I'm also like, OK, I got to be gentle my to myself.
I don't want to stay in this anger lane all the time, but I
think like this year, I have been learning Vietnamese for the

(56:22):
first time as a first. And I like at the end of last
year, like I started making friends in Vietnam, you know,
and I'm, you know, connecting with other Vietnamese folks,
Cambodian folks, you know, for awhile I've been doing that.
I'm very curious to know, like when you decide to go to Korea,
like with your family, have you already started making friends

(56:44):
in, in the, in the, the old family homeland?
And, and what is it that you're looking to, you know, you talk
about K pop with your, with yourchild, but I'm very curious
about for your own enjoyment, for your own pleasure, not for,
you know, trying to be like, no,a certain way that you felt like

(57:04):
you had lost. But like, for me, I think like
part of the language is to make connections.
Like I do not care if I'm a fluent speaker.
I don't have the expectation of it.
If I speak enough, at least I feel like I can tap into
something that I may not have gotten.
Yeah, that's a great. I mean, I, I aspire to reach
that level of like confidence inhow I am speaking because I

(57:31):
still like with language in particular, I don't really care
about like if I mess something up with food, maybe like a
cultural custom or something. But like language in particular,
I feel very, I feel a lot of shame around it.
Like because I can't speak it and I don't really say that out
loud very much. But like, I do feel pretty
ashamed that I have not been able to pick it up.

(57:51):
And I've taken some classes, I've done some stuff, but like
I've not invested the time really needed to be able to
start getting better. But like, it just feels
impossible to me. And it, and I feel that shame
every time I approach it and it gets double when I'm in Korea or
had it doubled when I was in Korea, even though I did
experience some, some things where I would just speak a word

(58:15):
or two because I'd build like 4 words and I would be received
warmly. I, I will say I didn't really
feel like I was being ostracizedby other people who are like,
oh, this is a Korean American, you know, in Korea.
That was, that was nice. My giveaway was I'm, I'm a
sweater. So like it was like 100° in July
and I was pouring sweat and shorts and AT shirt and

(58:36):
everybody else walk around and like baggy cargo pants and
sweatshirts and not sweating andI was like, OK.
Anyways, I do have some friends over there that live in Korea.
Most of them are adoptees. Most of them I don't know are
gonna be permanently there. So when my family just ends up
making the trip to Korea, I don't know what that kind of

(58:58):
circle will look like. And I do think like, I like, I
appreciate you sharing your journey with Vietnamese and like
how you're use using that to as a springboard.
I think I might try that. I think that might be a good
foundation for me to build from as opposed to just being like,
man, I just, I just want to learn it because I think I

(59:18):
should. Yeah.
It would be good for knowing friends and people over there
when we go. So I like it.
Thank you for. That I think that is something
that I had to change that mindset, you know, from that I
have to or I feel the guilt of Yeah, which I have, you know, I
mean, like my grandma never spoke a word of English and she
lived until I was 35. Last couple years was dementia

(59:39):
and I'm like, I was a full grown, grown ass of don't.
I could not have a conversation with her.
Now all of a sudden I'm able to like write sentences.
Do I get it right? No, I mean, there's so like
native speakers are like, what the hell are you trying to say?
It's a tonal language. But I think that there is beauty
in being able to just enjoy it and also like, right, I think
there's more beauty when it's when it's your own people that

(01:00:01):
give you grace and be like, Hey,you know what, like, hey, I'm
happy to practice with you. And like, I know that there's
like plenty of Vietnamese folks that speak English quite well.
And I, we converse, but then I'll be like, Hey, do you mind
if I? Talks to in Vietnamese.
I'm like, yeah, sure, you know, it's not a big deal.
I'm not, you know, they're not making fun of me.
You know, it's like, OK, well, this is what you could be

(01:00:22):
saying, you know, this is the textbook version versus this
way. And like, yeah.
And I think that has slowly eased down, you know, my anxiety
and the imposter feeling that I have and.
And I think that's something that you and I are, you know,
continuing to undo and try to like, you know, see what
opportunities there are to get us to a place that offers us

(01:00:45):
that curiosity. And for sure.
And also like now that you have been doing the Conversation
Piece podcast, which is now available, what was the genesis
starting that work? I know you had talked about
wanting to start your own project, but what was the
genesis and starting that and why Indianapolis?
What is about Indianapolis to a lot of people that we don't?

(01:01:09):
I haven't been in Indianapolis myself really.
So I've been to Indiana but never.
Just three hours up the road, bro.
Go down. I know, I know.
Hey, we have some pretty good fun here to be honest.
So anytime you're here, I will treat you to to some good
Vietnamese food that we have in the city.
OK, so I started conversation piece because I wanted full

(01:01:31):
creative control over something of my own after having done the
John Chee show for a couple years.
And it was still it was like this is like near the end of
2022. So still pretty, not like fully
locked down, but like still kindof like not going out a bunch.
So I was still doing this podcast virtually and the what I

(01:01:55):
what I was going to do was just talk to my friends about
whatever they wanted to talk about.
So no plan, no strategy, just blah.
And so I was doing that and I was having a good time, but
about six months in, I was like,I think I wanted to do.
I think I want something like tobe an entrepreneur and I think I
wanted to do it with this. Yes, I forgot I was at this, at

(01:02:17):
this place. Turn the lights back on.
That's hilarious. That's hilarious.
You got all kinds of things. Happening to you?
Love it, love it for me. And so, so six months in, I was
like, I want to be an entrepreneur.
I think I should have done that with this platform.
And so I'm going to, I'm not going to do a new one.

(01:02:38):
I'm just going to do it with this.
And so I had been going to LA and New York and DC with Jerry
to other Asian American events and experiencing Asian America
and other places. And at first when I was going,
people would always ask me whereI was coming in from.
And I'd say Indiana. And they would be like, ha, ha,

(01:02:59):
there's Asian people in Indiana.And I would go, ha, ha, there
are like I used to think that there weren't too.
Well after about a year of that,I was like, I've been meeting
the diaspora like I've been talking about.
And I was like, OK, there are Asian people here.
And I'm tired of this joke. And so I was at an event I'll
never forget. I was at an event and somebody
asked me that. And I finished the conversation

(01:03:20):
and I thought my head, I go, I'min Indianapolis for a reason.
I go, I don't know what the, I don't, I don't know why I was,
I've been an indie, but I know now I've been an indie for a
reason. And I think that reason is to
let all these motherfuckers knowabout the Asian people that are
here in this city. And so that was kind of the
impetus for wanting to be solelyfocused in indie in general.

(01:03:46):
Then making that decision. I was like, OK, I'm going to use
the podcast to talk about Indianapolis because I don't
know anybody here. I never built community while I
lived here before. I did not diversify the friend
group that I was in. So I'm kind of starting from
scratch. And I think the only way I'm
really going to be able to do this outside of just going
outside is to invite people ontothe show.

(01:04:07):
And hopefully they come and hopefully I do a good job.
And I got really, really lucky in December of 2023 and got 3
super incredible guests, Olivia W, Samson Livingston and Byron
Horton AKA Skip. We have three fantastic
conversations. And from there I was like OK,
we're going to do this. I found a team of videographer

(01:04:28):
and sound engineer to help me like fully produce an in person
show. And that was just in like
through these conversations of getting to know people of all
different industry background demography of Indianapolis, like
I just really started to see howmuch creative like I don't even

(01:04:52):
want to say energy. I can't I don't even like
culture, creative culture that lived here, that lived in the
soil of Indianapolis. I also saw how the city itself,
I felt like could be, could you could see history of other
places and things in Indy, like you can see parts of like New

(01:05:15):
York or or West Coast history inthe city in the way that people
transplanted themselves here andbrought that culture with them
or in the ways that we have beenlike influenced by major
metropolitan cities. So Indianapolis specifically was
designed to reflect DC, Washington, DC, the layout of
DC. So it's kind of the same.

(01:05:37):
We got a big circle in the middle.
We got like branching things that go out in all different
ways. It's really kind of interesting.
But the truth of the matter is like Indianapolis is really
thought over, like Indiana as a whole, most of the Midwest, not
Chicago, thought over as fly over, like fly over country.

(01:05:57):
And I think if you're really, and I say this about, I won't
say this just about Andy, but I think I'll say this about
everywhere. If you really think that, I
think that you need to get in your car and drive through all
of those places. Because I will guarantee you,
you are going to find something that is going to really like

(01:06:18):
reshape the way that you think about not just the city of
Indianapolis, but the entire state of Indiana.
We're the blue dot in the Red Sea.
So I think Chicago's a little similar.
I think most of like Southern Illinois, I think.
It's pretty pretty much pretty. Much and I think like that's a

(01:06:39):
stereotype, like that's a narrative about Indianapolis and
I think that there is like just the idea that we're because
we're in the middle of the map, because we're fly over country,
it's easier to get tax breaks there for your corporation.
So we're going to headquarter there.
It's easier. It's for this, that, and the
other. I think the real, the real real

(01:07:01):
is, is that Indianapolis is is made-up of a bunch of people who
have had to fight and scrap their way to continue to exist
and be there and not only be andexist there, but thrive there.
I'm talking about like the way that gentrification and
redlining like destroyed black communities here and they're

(01:07:22):
still here. They're still doing the thing
the way that E South and Southeast Asian communities have
somehow found their way to Indiana, to Indianapolis, and
have found and built pockets of community for themselves.
I'm talking about like the like the combi people in on the South
side up in Fort Wayne. Like, like the amount of people

(01:07:44):
that are not just your white rural farmer, conservative
Christian that exists here is really, really astounding.
And as much as people rag on thelack of food cultures here, we
do have some pretty world class food.
So I would say out of all of those things like Indianapolis

(01:08:06):
gets a bad rap because people just people are, it's a layover
city. People pop in and pop out if you
are going to. So, so I say that actually I got
to add some more context. It's like that because we don't
do a good job of investing in our small business
infrastructure, our small businesses in general and

(01:08:26):
uplifting and and supporting ourcommunities that already live
here. We only invest and support
mainly one off big events, SuperBowl, Taylor Swift, we have
WrestleMania right now, a lot ofsports stuff, a lot of concerts.
And in between there it's like there's like, oh, there's
nothing going on. Well, there is a lot going on.

(01:08:48):
It's just that we don't get a lot of support from the city or
the state itself to to be able to let people know about that.
So we just got to do it. And I think the cool thing about
Indy is that you can find community sustaining itself here
in spite of the lack of institutional funding from other
people. So you're going to find

(01:09:09):
incredible pockets of community.You can find some really, really
good food here. And yeah, I don't know, I can go
on about it for days, but lots of cool stuff in Indianapolis.
I really. Appreciate you, you know,
breaking the conventional stereotypes that a lot of city
people have of like or like bluestates have of like, you know,

(01:09:30):
red states especially like blue cities and red states, I should
say, because like, I do have a problem when like, yeah, you're
also crapping on the people who are actually doing the work,
fighting for communities like, you know, like Texas.
I mean, you know, everyone talksabout Texas, but I'm like, yeah,
but you got Houston, you got Dallas, you got, you know, El

(01:09:51):
Paso and Austin, those communities that are doing a lot
of like, really interesting communities that are doing
important civil engagement, civic engagement work.
And I think it's important to name a lot of the different
things are happening in communities that we don't
expect, like what I expect a Cambodian restaurant to be in
Cleveland, OH or Cincinnati. Not off the bat, but I feel like

(01:10:13):
these are the stories that we have to hear. 100%.
Because I mean, like, I have learned from like, other Asian
community members who live in like, in Iowa to like, other
parts of the Midwest, like, you know, they're part of these
stories. And I think, you know, like,
I've had them tell me like, yeah, I'm so glad that I have a
podcast I could listen to. This is the only time I feel

(01:10:34):
very connected to my culture outside of, like, the little
bubble that I'm in. So I think it's very important
to like really highlight and name that and that it's not the
Asian experience is not strictlyto coastal cities.
Yeah. Well, I think like specifically
speaking to our Asian diasporic experience like Indianapolis and

(01:10:55):
Indiana, specifically the state,but almost all of Indianapolis,
I think you can find, I might bea little bit wrong on the stat,
but I think at least 45 of the 50 countries of Asia represented
somewhere in India or Indiana. And I think people like and
like, when I learned that, I wasshocked.
I was shocked. And then I was also very ashamed

(01:11:17):
of myself for not knowing that, for not being aware of just how
many people from our diaspora are here in my city, in my
state. And the reason I said at that
gathering that I was in Indianapolis for a reason and
wanted to bring visibility in itwas because what I've noticed

(01:11:38):
here in Indiana, and the reason why we don't have more
visibility is that our diaspora is itself a little bit
fractured, siloed is the way that we like to talk about it
here. We go into our own pockets and
we don't have a lot of connective infrastructure.
And so we have a lot of organizations.
I don't know that we have a lot of organizational communication.

(01:11:58):
I don't know that we do more stuff outside of our annual
galas or outside of Lunar New Year or Tucson or whatever the
holiday is. I don't really, I don't really
see us doing a lot. Now.
Are there more things happening?Yes.
And if we don't, if Indiana, if Indianapolis, the blue city or
the blue the the blue dot in thehub does not where all of these

(01:12:22):
Asian folks are representative does not have a cohesive
connected commutative community in that area.
How is Patrick, the Korean adoptee who's growing up an hour
and a half north of here in completely in complete isolation
going to ever know that there ispotentially something just a

(01:12:43):
stone's throw away for him or his family to be able to access?
He's not going to because if he comes across maybe the Chinese
American Association here and they're not communicating with
the Korean Americans associationhere, how am I supposed to get
connected with them? Are they going to, are they
going to help me get connected to them?
Are they going to, are they going to be like, sorry, like
that's not a, that's not a thing.

(01:13:03):
Or are they just going to give me the information?
Like if we're not communicating with each other, people fall
through the cracks. And right now, literally right
now is a time we cannot have people falling through the
cracks. They are making cracks for
people to fall into and they arepushing them in there.
We can't be doing that. So like we have to do the work
of getting connected, of being in communication with each

(01:13:26):
other. So that way people, not just in
other cities and States and places, but people within our
own city and state know what is available to them, what is
accessible, what kinds of opportunities there are to just
find belonging. You said at the beginning
belonging like to just find somebody who looks like you like

(01:13:47):
and you can maybe have a conversation with like, I didn't
even know that that was a thing that was possible until I was
25. And even then I was still
rejecting my identity like, but when growing up, absolutely not.
I would have thought you'd have to go to Asia in order to do
that, which tells you how limited my scope was.

(01:14:10):
And it's because we, and I'm notsaying that like we have not had
incredible Asian American activists and organizations and
people in Indiana and in the city of Indianapolis who have
done incredible things. All I'm saying is that there is
an opportunity for us to be stronger together.

(01:14:30):
And until we take, until we, until we latch onto that
opportunity and really create that infrastructure, we're going
to lose people. And right now, we can't afford
to lose anybody. Yeah, I really appreciate you
shedding a lot of light into theculture of Indianapolis and also
and also the way it is being amplified and the way it's being

(01:14:53):
viewed as from an outsider and also from an insider lens.
And the only thing I will say, even though I haven't been in
Indianapolis, I've always had ananti Indianapolis bias only
because I've always hated the Pacers and the Colts.
Hey, that's OK. That's that's an OK.
Reason. I will say that I used to hate
Reggie Miller. Honestly, I love him so much as

(01:15:14):
a broadcaster. I love him and I'm like, yeah, I
have forgiven him for that pushing of Michael Jordan in
Game 4, which I have not forgiven him for, and I wish I
had. You did.
Forgive him. Oh, OK, You.
Know. Yeah, I know.
OK, You know what, there's stillsome feelings.
I still don't wanna watch that. I do not watch that.
Even though, yeah, we know that we had one game sub and went to

(01:15:36):
the NBA Finals. Y'all know what happened?
But yeah, I still have my moments.
But I will say that weirdly enough, I always like, I hate
the Knicks even more. So it was weird for me to
actually root for Indiana because I really cannot stand
Knicks fans. I think they're insufferable.
I'm sorry for people listening. I'm like lose some of my
streaming numbers. I don't care.

(01:15:57):
I really don't care. You can hate me all you want,
but like. But yeah.
And also the coats being the Bears too in the Super Birds.
I remember I had a family friendthat bought an Indianapolis coat
T-shirt from Indiana for an Indiana to troll me on that.
Yes. Was a little upset about that.
So. But I will say, yeah, what

(01:16:19):
projects are you currently working out within conversation
Piece and outside? But I know you're doing like
keynotes, you're doing a lot of speaking engagements as well.
I was wondering what else are you looking to do in the next
several months? Yeah, so I've actually been
doing the show live, started that once a month.
I started doing that in May and that has been really awesome.

(01:16:41):
So I just locked in the two the last two guests for this year.
So those announcements will be coming soon.
But the live show has been really, really fun.
I've been able to partner with some really cool people or some
really cool businesses here in the city to not only make not
only bring cool conversations, people make it accessible and
like super fun and impactful forthose businesses.

(01:17:02):
So excited to continue doing that.
Hopefully, fingers crossed, we're going to do a big ass
market, API night market in the circle center.
I have monument circle next year.
Fingers crossed I'm going to speak it.
Everything my heart desires is manifesting into reality.
That's why my last guest, so I had on to the studio.

(01:17:24):
She does. She has affirmation cards.
She gave me that. So we're manifesting that
market. And then, yeah, I'm just trying
to speak and be involved in community organizations a little
bit more. I will be speaking, I'll be at,
well, actually, no, I'm speakingat virtually for the Adoption

(01:17:44):
Knowledge Affiliates Conference,annual conference in November.
And then the week after I'll be in New York for the Adoptee Film
Fest, which is the second version of that or the second
time of that. And then the that weekend I'm
actually hosting a conference, the first of its kind leadership
summit for adoptees and former foster youth in Minneapolis.

(01:18:05):
So lots of cool stuff like that coming up.
I'm also really interested in figuring out actually, just
kidding. I will tell you about this one
last thing. Last year I was in a program
that was that paid me to think of an idea.
And it took me four of the five weeks of the program to realize

(01:18:28):
that I didn't have to make something.
I just had to develop the idea. And so the idea that I came up
with is a storytelling archive. And So what this is, is
essentially vignettes of the Asian diaspora here.
Folks from the Asian diaspora want to share their story about
what it means what what what their story has been in
Indianapolis as an Asian American and whatever that might

(01:18:50):
look like, just sitting down in front of a camera having a quick
conversation, capturing that lives on the Internet for people
to look at. I was inspired by Glenn Morey,
Korean adoptee. He did a project very similar
called Side by Side where he talked to I think over 100 some
adoptees in foster youth from the Korean foster system, foster

(01:19:10):
care system, and that was reallyimpactful for me when I first
started this work. I always wanted to do something
similar and that would be my first time producing like a film
project. So I need to be more farther
along than than I am on that. But I am currently working on
that. I'm excited to hopefully start
rolling that out at the beginning of the year.

(01:19:31):
And yeah, so be on the lookout for that.
So we've been talking about Indy.
I hope this would be a way to show people, especially this for
especially outside of our our city, just how much we have
here. So, yeah, yeah, I would
definitely like to make a visit to Indianapolis.

(01:19:51):
I have been inspired by your podcast every time I would
listen to it. Like, God, I really need to find
a weekend to do it, you know, because I do like doing a little
road trip. I mean, I'll go to Minneapolis.
I'll go to other parts of Indiana, Wisconsin.
But like, yeah, I would love to experience what you have been
sharing. And I think it's amazing what
that definitely do, right? And one last question that I

(01:20:14):
have is. If you had to go back in time to
your 30 year old self, what would you say to that person
now? Man, I'm sorry to do this to
you, but I know that this is theinteresting last five years that
you got there. This has been an interesting
five years. Build a time machine so you can

(01:20:40):
skip 2025 to 2029, even though Ihaven't lived those last three
years. No, I think what I would say to
to 30 year old me is I feel like this is what I say

(01:21:04):
to young me too. But I think he needs to hear
right now. I think he, I think what I would
say to him is you're going to beOK.
Yeah, you're going to be OK because you're going to
experience a lot of stuff in thenext year.
That's going to be a lot. In the next three years, it's
going to be a lot. And in the next 5 years, it's
going to be a lot. And at each of those milestones,

(01:21:25):
you're going to feel really great.
And you're also going to feel more lost, I think than you were
when you were actually were lost.
So I think, I think when I thinkabout who you are right now, I
think you need to know that it'sgoing to be all right.
And yeah, we'll leave it at that.

(01:21:45):
You'll be good. Yeah.
Thank you so much, Patrick, for your time.
All the best to you and your work, and I'm so glad to finally
have this conversation with you after the last few years.
So really much. Best of luck to you moving
forward. Same to you.
It's been a privilege and a joy anytime I use to chat with you,
not just about my story, but to chat with you specifically.
It's it's it's, it means a lot to me, so thank you.

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