The Work is Werk: Women of Color, Toxicity, and the Fight to Survive w/Joi Louviere

This week, we’re getting real and diving into the deep end with the incredible Joi Louviere from the Werk Stories Podcast. Our conversation pulls no punches as we talk about the brutal realities of toxic workplaces, especially through the lens of a Black women.

Joi and I discuss how the prevailing political environment—specifically the Trump administration—has created an even more difficult and exhausting landscape. We tackle the specific challenges of both the nonprofit and corporate world, where passion often masks a lack of resources, and how Black women and other women of color are forced to constantly innovate in order to survive their work environment. If you’ve ever felt depleted, undervalued, or just plain tired of the professional struggle, this episode offers a supportive voice and a path toward survival and lasting resilience.

About Werk Stories Podcast

Birthed out of back-to-back discriminatory work experiences, the Werk Stories creator decided to turn her trauma into community by developing a safe space for other Black women and women of color to speak about the things that have happened to them in their workplaces.

By opening up, women of color can empower each other to persevere and know that they are not alone. Werk stories works with therapists, HR professionals, and employment lawyers to provide advice on how this community can best create change in their industries.

Take this journey with us and listen to the stories of these amazing women, and most importantly, believe them!

About the Creator: Joi Louviere

Joi honed her passion for storytelling in college while studying journalism at her beloved HBCU, Hampton University. As a radio host and staff writer, then editor, in the student newspaper, she learned the many ways to tell a thoughtful story. After some newspaper work, Joi’s career pivoted to more broad communications, production assisting, public relations and magazine work. After getting her Master’s in journalism from Georgetown University, Joi sold all her things and traveled the world for 3.5 years. Her nomadic lifestyle was freeing, but more than that it highlighted the many stories that needed to be told and she began nonprofit work. She started by using her comms skills to nurture programming for children at a small, but impactful organization, and then matriculated to college access work, both roles requiring a savvy for social media and marketing leadership. While nonprofit work is rewarding, Joi could not escape the workplace bias and discrimination and overall racism present in every corner of of the nonprofit world. Werk Stories was born from a breaking point, and Joi hopes it inspires many more moments of realizations for Black women and women of color who are tired of the unnecessary obstacles just to do their jobs. With the vulnerability of brave Black and brown women and work of focused allies, Joi is sure Werk Stories will be one of many contributors to the overhaul of United States work culture. Joi currently lives, writes and (werk) stories in Dallas, Texas.

Follow Joi:

Instagram: Werkstories

LinkedIn: Joi Louviere's LinkedIn

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
Hey everyone, So my name is Randy Kim from the Bundami
Chronicles podcast and it is a pleasure to invite a person that
I have been observing the last couple years in the podcast
world and her name is Joy Louvier.
To give you some background, JoyLouvier is currently the creator
and the host of Work Stories, WERK Stories.

(00:25):
And so to share more about what who Joy is, Joy has a background
in journalism and it's currentlya journalist graduated from the
HBCU Hampton University. You have actually, after getting
your master's in journalism fromGeorgetown University, you
decided to globetrot and, and also I feel like we have a lot

(00:50):
of overlap. And then just looking at this
and you have been working a nonprofit for a while and then
you realize that dealing with the what we call it in the
nonprofit world, the nonprofit industrial complex created this
environment that made it very difficult to continue.
And I think when you started Work Stories, it was really out

(01:13):
of a need to reflect and also toreally challenged the the work
environment specifically in America and how it views and how
it treats black women and women of color specifically in this
environment. And so I think this is a very
important topic to name, especially given what has

(01:36):
happened with, you know, the Jimmy Kimmel, but also with the
many layoffs that have happened to black women.
I think which we really need to name that 300,000 plus black
women were forced out of the workforce.
And I think that is something that we are not talking about.
We don't even talk about Joy andread, you know, from MSNBC that

(01:58):
got fired or Karen from the Washington Post who's a
journalist. So I think that this is
something that we do have to discuss because the Trump 2.0
administration is clearly escalating and finding ways to
take away many civil liberties on a daily basis.
And I really appreciate you joining me here.

(02:21):
And I think the first question would be is how are you
navigating 2025 with only less than a few months left if it's
hard to believe? Yeah, I feel like I have to take
everyday, one day at a time. There's not a lot of like,
planning ahead because I don't know how I'm going to feel.

(02:42):
So even just, like, socially, you know, what I want to do on
the weekends or, like, spending time with people just feels like
something I can't really plan because I can't predict what is
going to happen in the news cycle that's going to completely
derail my work week and, you know, affect my psyche.
You know, so many weekends, I need the entire weekend to

(03:04):
sleep, to rest, to reflect, to watch stupid television, to kind
of decompress from how serious every part of our life is.
And so this year, I can't. Yeah.
I can't believe we're almost done with it.
It, it, it's been really difficult.
And in full transparency, it's been difficult for me to, you
know, do another season of my podcast.

(03:26):
I'm really delayed with it. I'm pretty tight about pushing
out my seasons and it's been almost a year and since I
wrapped my last season and I've just had trouble starting again
because it just feels like more labor on top of what I'm already
doing and it's just hard to havea hobby right now.

(03:48):
Yeah. And you know, for context, you
are a journalist and you were talking about just last night,
you know, well, this morning there was a shoot, a mass
shooting at an ICE detention center in Houston, I believe.
I know it's in Texas, in Dallas,TX.
And, and how you were sharing that I have to work overnight to

(04:12):
really get more detail so I can push it in for the next
newsletter. And so I think this is like an
example of like what journalistshave to go through, especially
when this is a field that is, you know, this is this is this,
this hurts my soul because I went into the journalism route

(04:33):
coming out of college and seeinghow it has declined like over
the years in terms of support for it and also the need for
quality journalism and for accountability.
Because, you know, what we have seen with the current
presidential administration? Yeah.
The freedom of the process and freedom of speech has been

(04:56):
turned upside down. And, and it is, it is creating a
very hazardous situation, but italso creates an environment
where like we don't have many folks to rely on for
information. And we are also seeing fringe

(05:18):
right wing activist, you know, infiltrating on podcast on, on
social media and a lot of disinformation that goes
unchecked because Meta and you know, now TikTok and some of
these big platforms are controlling the narrative.
So I wonder like, like having tonavigate, you know, your work as

(05:41):
a journalist, Like, how do you, how do you find ways to to, to
be able to do your work And alsobeing able to stay in a
situation where you feel a levelof safety at which I don't know
if that's even the right question.

(06:05):
Well, I don't know. I feel like to do this work, you
have to be really good at compartmentalizing.
And you know, there's levels where that gets unhealthy, but
that's like the least of my worries.
I'll deal with that in therapy in 10 years from now.
Because you just have to, you have to be able to focus and

(06:25):
move quickly. And one of the key parts of
journalism is having good judgement.
And so you can't do that when you're clouded by emotions and
your own personal feelings and, and, and consequence and the
consequences for you of what's happening outside.
I, I, I think one of the things I do everyday is try to figure

(06:46):
out what my audience needs to see and what can Ioffer them
that's different than what they're going to get from cable
news, local stations, you know, some of the other newsletters
they're subscribed to. I think about all the ways they
get information, TikTok, Instagram.
And so I'm trying to figure out how to get them news that they

(07:06):
might not get in those spaces. And even if it's, you know, the
same topic, how to frame it in away or give them information
that they're also not going to get in other places.
So I, I'm in Dallas, Fort Worth.And so my focus is really is
talking to people about how what's happening at the State
House in Texas and, and in the White House in DC is going to

(07:30):
affect them. So I have to bring everything
home, but I also don't want to scare them and catastrophize
things and just flood them with negativity after negativity.
There has to be balance. So that's some of you know how I
how I approach my job every day.Yeah.
And that's like I was talking about the overlap that we have

(07:51):
too, because I came in with a journalism background.
I graduated college during and Ithink it was 2007, so it was
about two, actually a year before the economic recession
and which kind of goes with the familiar millennial narratives
like, you know, we we were bled to believe in this American

(08:14):
dream and that if you go to college, you're going to get a
great job. And then the recession happened
and I saw the journalism field shrink considerably like before
my very eyes. I was getting a lot of
interviews. And then one example was the
Chicago Tribune. I got interviewed with them four
different times. And then all of a sudden they

(08:35):
had to pull that position out because it went, it was filing
for bankruptcy at the time. And then I realized that I had
to start pivoting. Like, like you, I was also a jet
setter. I've actually lived in South
Korea, a place I had never been to, never really knew anything
about. And I did for three years
teaching English. And I know you had jet setter

(08:56):
for 3 1/2 years, which I think it's such a great, I mean,
there's a whole nother topic about traveling that I can get
into. But like, I think it also, you
know, gave me an opportunity to step away from what is happening
in America and also being able to recalibrate and what it is
when I come back, how different I'm going to be.

(09:19):
And I also which led me into nonprofit work.
And, you know, there's this, there's this feeling like, you
know, I want to help communities.
I, you know, me being a son of refugees from Vietnam and
Cambodia, I felt that it was important for me to give back
and to be of service to folks inthe communities and to

(09:44):
strengthen my knowledge and my connection to community members.
But also what I've seen when nonprofit work.
And, you know, as much as I lovethe people that I work, when I
still do, there is also a lot ofemotional damage.
There's also a lot of workplace trauma that gets involved.

(10:04):
I mean, you're exposed to, especially if you're in the
grassroots, the smaller nonprofits, like you're exposed
to a lot of traumas. Like I remembered having to
worry about the deportations in our community.
I had to worry about, you know, what policies are being enacted
that are racist, that are clearly endangering marginalized

(10:29):
groups of folks. And, and the little support that
we get and the fact that we sometimes martyr ourselves to,
well, ourselves to work. And then to the point where
either we face health problems. People end up being, hate to say
this, but like being gone permanently and also or, you

(10:51):
know, or a lesser extent, just people turning away from the
work altogether, which I have seen.
So I wonder about that your journey and what you have
observed in those years, like, you know, you know, being a
journalist, having the jet set, working a nonprofit, how has it
kind of like inform the way it has, the way it has really

(11:16):
impacted your views about your employer or or being in the
workplace environment? Yeah, I would compare the
nonprofit experience for me to kind of how the the disconnect
in the US So there is a group ofpeople who feel like the US is

(11:38):
the best country on the earth, right?
We have the best of everything. There's no greater place.
I feel like nonprofits think that they're the best as well,
that they are doing this superhero work.
And, you know, they're really, you know, some people say doing
the Lord's work really, you know, public servants and
reaching into the communities, right?

(11:59):
This white. It's a really white.
Savior. Public reaching into these
communities that no one cares about.
And and we're going to help you.We're going to give you the
money, we're going to guide you.And it it is, it is the farthest
thing from the truth, just like it is that our country is the
greatest country in the world. It is, it is actually, there is

(12:20):
actually so much inner work you we need to do in nonprofits,
just like the inner work we needto do in our country before we
go around talking about everybody and judging everybody
else. And in my nonprofit experiences,
I found that there wasn't enoughfocus on our our staff and how
we work together and how we treated each other and policy

(12:40):
and just general HR stuff and hours and money and all of that
stuff was so neglected while we were literally doing things that
were supposed to help other groups of people get some of the
things that we were lacking in our own jobs.
Like 1 nonprofit I worked for was supposed to help
marginalized people. In this case it was youth.

(13:02):
Marginalized people get to college and get jobs and then
they hired those marginalized youth, you know, who they grew
up to be and didn't pay them well and treated them like crap
and targeted them and said culturally insensitive things.
And I mean, it was just a list. So it's like, so you're trying

(13:24):
to save this group that then youthen go harm.
You want to pull up me at 18 andthen come back and slap me in
the face and traumatize me like that is that's the experience I
had. So it was kind of ironic.
And then you do feel like a martyr.
You do feel like, well, I have to suffer and and sacrifice for
the betterment of everyone else.But that's actually not the

(13:47):
case. We could actually be helping
communities, first of all, in the way that those communities
want to be helped, not just coming up with stuff, asking,
actually asking people what theyneed and then providing it
versus deciding. And we can do that while we
treat each other well as a staff, while we implement, you
know, policies that help with work life balance, while we pay

(14:09):
people fairly and give proper PTO and vacation time and
bereavement time and insurance. It's possible.
I just haven't worked at a nonprofit that's figured it out.
Yeah, I, I have a lot to say on that because like the, the, the

(14:30):
college access work that you have done, I'm going to have to
keep it minimal because I don't want to endanger, I don't want
to like incriminate myself. But I will just say that I have
seen that kind of behavior and not and just in general, but
also because I work in, I work in development in the
fundraising lane. So I work with board members,

(14:51):
I've worked with donors, small donors to high level donors,
corporate sponsors. And I know Voulet is a non
profit consultant. He does a lot of great work who
I recommend and he has called out foundations, especially
because the one that they have been given have been stolen from

(15:13):
black communities, have been stolen well from indigenous
communities. Let's be very clear here.
But like like that, the money that they're giving it should be
reparations money. It should be seen as that
instead of having like these high end stakeholders who have
no personal live experience and should not be judging or telling

(15:37):
a non profit what to do in termsof how they should spend that
money. And part of it is like not
including staff salary. And I'm like, oh, how can you
have a program, but you're not going to include staff salary?
This is why we have a heavy turnover.
So I think that there's a huge disconnect in the nonprofit
experience and, you know, like as a person that it is still

(16:01):
trying to navigate my way through the nonprofit when I,
you know, enter back into it. In some ways.
I think it is also in a way mademe very cautious and very
skeptical, having healthy skepticism now about about the
intentions of folks and how the money is being used.

(16:22):
But also like with community members that are receiving
services, but also like in development, we need stories
from community members. But you know, one thing I've
always said is, well, can we, can we give them honorariums?
Because I really feel like that's their story.
We are benefiting from these grants and none of this would
happen if we aren't getting stories, But we also have to
empower that. Like, I think that, you know, I

(16:45):
know I'm going into another deepdive about my, my critiques of
nonprofit, but I but like when Ithink of employees not given
enough PTO or enough bereavementtime, which I've had to
experience, you know, with the loss of my brother earlier this
year, I realized how much I had to step away and realized like,

(17:08):
this is not working for me. And and this idea of like, you
know, with HR, like throwing in like, oh, let's do a one hour
yoga session. Let's do a breathing session.
I'm just like, no, this is not what we need.
This is not going to solve our problems.
This is not going to solve like the deficit.
I haven't paying my bills or anyone's or a family trying to

(17:31):
pay their bills. Like we need more money and we
need more resources and we need more time off.
So yeah. And we?
Just need to be treated well. Like there's just, there's so
many people in leadership and nonprofits and in corporations
that don't have leadership skills like that are actually
not qualified to lead. Maybe they're qualified to do a
certain task and they know a lotabout a subject.

(17:53):
But being a leader is a completely different skill set
than anything, you know, that wecould be doing in our
professions. The actual work itself, It's,
it's a separate training that needs to happen, separate
development. And people are getting into
these positions who are absolutely not qualified, and
they are dangerous. And they're affecting entire

(18:14):
industries, you know? Yeah, especially nonprofit.
Yeah. I'm also like, wondering about,
like, your own take on, I think like your take on what it means
to be a black woman. From your own experience in 2025
in the workplace, what have you observed so far and how black

(18:37):
women and women of color are being treated and viewed as in
the workplace these days? At this point, it just feels
like some patterns are going to happen in the workplace, like
everything feels timed out. And I think so.
I think there's some other blackwomen who would agree with me.
Like at some point you will be the pet, usually in the

(19:01):
beginning, you will be the star.People will love you, you come
with the great ideas, you take initiative, you do all the
things that are just in your natural skill set.
And then that those same things become an issue later.
And so I think I just go into stuff thinking that it's a
matter of time and that my goal with any job is just to get as

(19:26):
much experience as I can get, have a variety of, you know,
good challenges for myself as a professional.
And just be open to the fact that that will probably happen
at some point. You know, it might happen at
different times depending on where you work, but that that

(19:48):
shift will happen. And instead of being so
emotional about it and sad and really depressed about it when
it first happened to me, take itwith a grain of salt.
And I have to and understand andbe very clear, this is the
country I live in and this is the work culture I'm a part of.
And as long as I continue to work in, you know this.

(20:13):
Money hungry Society of the United States of America and
function in this economy that these are some of the things
that are going to happen becausewe have not evolved past it.
I'm hoping that one day before Ileave this earth, I'll get to
see the shifts, but I'm not holding my breath.
And I think a lot of the work that I'm doing now is to just be

(20:37):
a small, you know, coin in the bucket for a bigger change that
will happen long after I'm gone and our generation's gone.
That is very powerful and to, you know, name that.
And I think of like this idea ofwork of having to especially

(20:57):
when you're new to a company, especially if you're one of the
few people of color or sexual identity or gender identities.
And it feels like this, there's this a tokenization and there's
this like exulting of like, Oh my gosh, you know, you have this
great idea. You know, we're having
diversity. You know, what are they like to

(21:18):
say it or not? Usually it's framed in that
spirit. But also like, as, as I started
to observe in other workplaces, there's always this mentality is
like, well, you know, we need new ideas.
You need to see how you can kindof go beyond and as a kind of a

(21:39):
weight if you're going to get a promotion.
And I have suckered myself into that.
Like I actually, you know, worked on some of the DI work
for this one company. And I realized like, you know
what, no, I'm not getting paid extra for this.
This is actually outside of my job description.

(22:02):
This is something that I had to think about because I think this
is the behavior that's starting to that millennials and Gen.
Z's are picking up now because it's like to do this extra
labor, especially when it feels like we have to justify our
belonging and justify our existence in in in a way.

(22:23):
And I just think that it's so I could see it how debilitating
that can feel and, and how like how you've had to reshift the
expectations and be like, hey, Iknow this is a capitalistic
system that we're living in. We're all just trying to

(22:44):
survive. Let's it's a harm reduction
approach that we all have to take and be very mindful of.
And I am very curious to know like, especially with COVID that
has happened, I mean, we were seeing like remote work, full
remote work really disappear. And this was something that was

(23:07):
started with the quiet quitting movement, you know, and, and now
it's like it has reversed itselfback.
And I wonder from your observations, why do you think
that companies have decided to like pull back on the remote
work when and also things that actually benefited employees?
Yeah, I think it's all about control, as most things are in

(23:31):
life, in my opinion. I think you know it.
You, they feel like they have a sense of a better sense of
control over their employees when they can see them, when
they can have them do these egregious tasks like drive and
traffic for an hour and 15 minutes on the on a rainy day or
a snowy day to get into the office and then back.

(23:55):
You know, they can control if you are, if your kids home from
school, they can make sure you're not tending to your kid.
They can make sure you're not washing clothes.
They can make sure you're not taking a shower, God forbid, in
the middle of the day. It's just about, you know,
having as much control over people and then hoping because
it's not proven, there's no databehind it, but hoping that

(24:17):
they'll get more work out of folks.
You know, they'll get more, moreproductivity even though nothing
shows that they're going to get.I think it's about, you know,
wanting to say we're watching you and put that pressure on.
And I think it kind of silences people from kind of the turning

(24:39):
up. I'm going to say that people
have been doing the last few years and really voicing their
opinions about leadership, you know, creating relationships
with their Co workers and peopleacross teams to create, bonding
behind what's going on and then getting together, coming
together and creating a plan of how you're going to tackle
things. You silence a lot of that when

(25:00):
you put people at desks where every time they get up to even
go take a pee, you see them. OK, so how can me and the Co
worker meet to talk about the issue at work and figure out a
plan of how we're going to address it in the meeting?
Kind of, you know, subtly if everyone's watching us, right.
And so those are things that I think they they feel like

(25:22):
benefits then like they're trying to take those those
moments away, which is unfortunate because those were
those are big connecting moments.
Those are things that just can'thappen in person.
And I think a lot of folks will realize like there was a lot of
mobilization of employees that happened remotely that just
wasn't possible in an in the office environment.
So, yeah, I think that's, that'sdefinitely one of the reasons.

(25:46):
And I don't know, it feels like they just want people to be
miserable and they think that misery will benefit them and
make them more money and and be able to get more out of people.
Yeah. Yeah, and I'm also like thinking
a nurse sinister theory I have in mind is also like like, like

(26:07):
they like these companies have to pay leases and rents.
And you know, I think that there's something to that
nature. I'm not an expert.
I'm not an economic expert firstand foremost, but also like the
restaurant cities to the government.
Like, like, like there are a lotof business that rely on on at

(26:28):
site employees, you know, to go to a Chipotle in downtown
Chicago or, you know, or being able to, you know, have more
face to face connections, like as a way to create more ideas as

(26:48):
if it can't be done online. So I think that there is this
weird way of how capitalism really reigns that in it's like,
no, it gives you too much freedom, but it also means we
can't watch you, as you mentioned, but it also means
that other people around it can't make money.
So it's like it's, it's to our decimate in a way.

(27:10):
And that's something I think about like who it actually
effects, you know, and also like, and also effects our
climate too, because, you know, people have to drive to get to
work or, you know, take the buses.
And and we've also seen that ourclimate kind of improved a
little bit during like the firstlockdown.
And it's like, OK, now we're actually seeing how it could

(27:32):
work out. But now we're back to where we
were. And I would say like something
that really makes me wonder about about the workplace these
days, especially among our generation, is like how we view
HR. And I kind of alluded to like,

(27:53):
you know, you see these one houryoga sessions that they offer or
these coupons to like a Wellnessor like this 5 free sessions for
from Better Help. But like, what is it about HR
that they're not connecting withthese company leaders are not

(28:15):
understanding because this is not, I don't think it's really
showing that's actually improving the quality of
employees. Yeah, I have interviewed so many
HR professionals that I think they have different.
They've always had different differing opinions about the
role of HR and what HR is supposed to be.
You'll have people who say it's supposed to protect the company.

(28:36):
Other people will say we are there for the employees and the
company is secondary. I don't know.
I think it just depends on whereyou work and the culture that's
already been established there with leadership.
But there is not like a good checks and balances.
And I think that's why there's back and forth on that.
You know, there's there should be somebody there to protect the

(28:57):
company. I think that's what legal's for.
That sounds like a good reason to have legal or like some other
entity, but like who's there to make sure that your employees
are happy and that they're getting what they need to
produce the work you want to getthe money you want.
I think both of those things canexist and make sense.
If I was a business owner, I'd want to figure out how to be
protected too. And as an employee, I want

(29:19):
somebody on my team. And so I think some of those
efforts are just to say that they did something.
It's just across something off alist.
It's not actually about listening to what your employees
are telling you they need. And if you create safe spaces
for them to give you that feedback, not surveys that you
say are anonymous that are not, and then you get on and all

(29:42):
hands call and are extremely aggressive about the responses
to said surveys, It's like not feeling safe.
That's not the way to do it. But, you know, creating a system
where your HR leaders are peopleyou feel like comfortable with.
I just need to go to you. I need to talk to you about
what's happening. And they can give you
perspective too, because, you know, sometimes things that

(30:02):
happen in the workplace are veryemotional.
And you do have to like, think of both sides of things and it.
And just like we call a friend after work or parent or you
know, your romantic partner to kind of get perspective, you
know, HR can be that perspectiveof like, I totally see what
you're saying. I do know that this is happening
over here. What about this like and create

(30:24):
a solution with you that works and get your feedback on what
feels good to you and what and what you think will work to
rectify a problem. I think that can happen.
I just think it, it requires a lot more care for employees than
currently exists. It's it's also ironic.

(30:44):
It's like when someone is just the, the lowly employees.
Everyone cares about the people,right?
Unionize, you know, power to theemployee.
Everyone needs vacation time, Fair, fair treatment.
And then something about once you rise to a certain level,
it's like you forget everything,like all your morals and values.
Like for so many, you know, leaders and execs just like fall

(31:07):
off. And now it's like whatever, they
just should do their job. And it has that attitude.
It almost reminds me how folks say there are no good
billionaires. You just can't be truly good
with that amount of wealth. So it, it kind of scares me,
right, Because millennials are probably the last generation.
And I will not even say all millennials because half of us

(31:29):
have decided we don't want leadership roles.
But we're like definitely the last generation that is going to
be like, I'm trying to climb theladder and want those big
positions. But do we have to sacrifice who
we are? Do we have to sacrifice our
morals and values to do that? And it does make you rethink how
high do you want to go and are just trying to go high for the

(31:52):
money. What else could you be doing to
generate the money you want for life that doesn't require you to
be a corporate exec and become heartless?
So I think that's a conversationa lot of millennials are having.
I think Gen. X is it's over.
They are already leading. And I think it's too far gone.
But I think for millennials, a lot of us have time to consider

(32:15):
what that looks like and what we're willing to give up because
every position is not, you know,you have to trade in something.
When you are junior, you're friends with everybody.
You know, you know what's going on.
You're included in the side conversations.
You get camaraderie at work and an invite and you know, a
community. And you have to give that up the

(32:37):
higher you go. Often times people will tell you
that's something they miss and they mourn as they move up the
ladder. But then, you know, of course,
when you're junior, you also don't have a say, you don't get
listened to, you get a horrible salary.
You're the 1st to go in a layoff.
Like, you know, so it's like, it's a, it's a trade off.
Like, what am I willing to sell for this check?

(32:57):
What am I willing to give up of myself?
And that requires all of us to do some really deep work and
know ourselves 100% before we can make any career moves.
That really hits very close to home too, because that's that's
something that you know, but millennials also being the most
educated generation so far, we've also, I think, I can't

(33:21):
remember where I read this, but we are, we struggle.
We are the most compassionate, empathetic generation in a way,
you know, and I and I see that, but at the same time, we
struggle with giving guidance tobecause the guidance that we
were given does not hold true today.
And I think that's kind of why we feel very jaded and

(33:44):
rightfully jaded and, and that we have to like redefine our
expectations. And, and I think that's why we
started to give guidance to the Gen.
Z folks, you know, and why it feels very challenging because
it's like, I don't know if I really want to lead.
And sometimes I ask myself that too, because I want to be seen

(34:08):
as a person who's authentic, who's not going to be part of
the harm. Like if I have to be a director,
that actually is going to have to lay off 15 of my staff.
You know, as a person who's gonethrough layoffs myself and
watching other people lose theirjobs and seeing what it has done
to them, it's hard for me to have that kind of a conversation

(34:31):
and be like, we have to let you go and we may not have enough
severance for you, which, you know, I wish I have a magic
wand. Say you deserve a year of
severance. You know, I you deserve like
several months of health insurance at the at the very
least, you know, so I think thatI think that there's a lot of
trepidation with taking on leadership because it does

(34:53):
require you to have to give up something.
But at the same time, you also unlock more privileges that are
more exclusive. And for some people it is
alluring and for others it's like, I can't abandoned the
people that were rooting for me.Like I remember my brother, he
worked at this one company and he had to actually cut his staff

(35:16):
and he didn't find out until literally like an hour or two
before that. And they just gave him names.
And some of the people he had tolay off were people that
actually, you know, supported him on his rise.
And it was devastating to him. He told me he wanted to quit
that week because of how of how he felt like a villain, even

(35:42):
though that was not his fault. But that was what he had to deal
with. And it did get him away from the
leadership trajectory for a while because of that.
And I think that that's something that we have to
confront, but also among, you know, if you're a person of
color. And what does that mean?
Because we aren't always giving guidance.

(36:03):
Like when I was in the journalism field, I worked at
ATV Sports TV Network and as an intern at the time, the
marketing department just completely white.
And I think that at the time in my thinking, I was like, if I
work hard, if I can just enter in, then I can enter into that

(36:28):
field. You know, I feel like I can
really, you know, stand out. But as I was going to these
places, like into the journalismfield, like into the different
publications and different places, and it was a very white
landscape that I had to navigate.
And it felt disheartening, you know, to see that.

(36:52):
And it also made me wonder like,who can I actually turn to as a
mentor that actually understandswhat it's like to be a queer
Asian man, let alone if you are of any of intersecting
identities, like who do you turnto?
And I think that is also something that we really
struggle with, but we're also atthe same time we feel very

(37:12):
compassionate about because we've all been through, you
know, the rejections, the the surprises, the bad surprises
that have happened to us. So I'm curious about some of
your own experiences of like, you know, microaggressions or

(37:33):
what ways that you were forced to self preserve, you know, to
not fall into this horrible stereotype that you know, that
people have, you know, especially with leaders like,
you know, you can't if you speakout too much, then you can seen
as poison or you're seen as toxic or like certain behaviors

(37:53):
that you have to like code switch.
Well, I will say at 36, I feel like I've just figured it out.
Lots of error. And I'm not even to say error,
'cause I don't think what I was doing was wrong, but it
definitely wasn't advantageous for me.
And so I think it's I've, I've realized I'm a person that is

(38:14):
always going to speak up and I have taken, I'm now comfortable
with that and I've accepted thatabout myself.
I'm never going to be the quiet one.
There does have to be people whodon't, who are quieter, who play
the game in that way. I'm just not that person.
It's fine. So I respect that person because
I, we need, like you said, we need people to be able to be

(38:36):
those leaders. And often times getting those
positions are the people who just kind of stay quiet.
They mind their business, you know, they do just what they
need to do to get by and that it's a strategy that works and
we want to see ourselves in those higher positions.
And sometimes being yourself doesn't is hard to land in those

(38:56):
like, and I appreciate that person who has figured that out
and that's what feels right to them.
And that's like, like true to their personality.
It's just not true to mine. So after I've realized I'm
always going to be a person to speak up and I've charted it
back to my upbringing, the different experiences I had
really young in life and as a young person, you know,

(39:17):
teenager, whatever has all primed me for being outspoken.
And I rather have nothing then not be true to myself and not do
right by my community. I'd rather have nothing.
And that's like that's and I have had nothing at times

(39:38):
because of that. And so that's just a rule that
I've made for myself. 1 So knowing that and then two, it's
like, OK, so then the next step is how in your next experiences
do you navigate being who you now have determined you are?
But you want to have a job, you want to be like that, your job,
you want to get promoted, you want to make more money, all of

(40:01):
these things. And so I figured there's a time
to push and there's a time to pull.
And so I pay a lot of attention in my workplaces now when I feel
like I can push more. And pushing is sometimes just
asking questions. That's the push.
It's really not that deep, but like it's just.
Why? But why?

(40:21):
Kind of like being a 2 year old,but why?
But why do we have to do that? But didn't you just say this is
like holding people accountable?And so I just try to figure out,
I assess like who can I remotelytrust in the first months of a
job? And I say remotely because you
can't fully trust anyone. At the end of the day,

(40:42):
everyone's going to do what theyneed to do for themselves in the
workplace. So you really have no friends in
the workplace until you leave. And the people who are your
friends after you leave are actually your friends, but you
don't know it yet. You don't know what people will
do. So I try to figure out who can I
remotely trust? And then, you know, if I do need
to vent about things or get advice or whatever, I go to

(41:04):
those people if it, if it has tobe people in the workplace,
because sometimes you just need to call friends and family.
And then I, I gauge a situation,I pay close attention to how
folks react when certain subjects are brought up or there
are people pushing or whatever. And I just watch everyone and I
decide when I want to do my thing and when I think it will

(41:28):
work. And it's worth it, right?
It has to be worth it. You have to pick and choose your
battles. Not everything is worth putting
up a fight about. So when to do it and when to say
not today. Or it feels like a weird
situation or I feel like something's brewing that I don't
fully know about. But I don't like the the feeling
I'm getting. So I'm trusting my instincts.

(41:49):
And so years of dealing with lots of different people in the
workplace, you should be building your instincts and
focusing in on that and then be listening to your gut when it
says this is not the thing to push or this is the time to go
in right now. You have to have, you know, hold
somebody accountable. You have to say no.
You have to, you know, say this is not my job or whatever.

(42:14):
And so that's kind of the stage I'm in now.
I don't think I've perfected it,but I think I have figured out
that, you know, professional life is a is a push and pull and
the smartest the people who makeit out, you know, having all of
those great accolades in the endand the the generational wealth

(42:37):
we all want and the lake house or whatever your goals are with
your job are the people who I think I figured that out.
I don't know if you ever watchedon TikTok the real Veronica.
I kind of go into the rabbit hole like it's like it's like an
animation sketch hosted by Veronica and she like gives

(42:57):
examples of clap backs, you know, to her employer.
And then trust me, some of thoseI've actually put to practice,
you know where she gets very. I know who you're talking about.
I just like I know exactly who you're talking about.
She's coming. She's hilarious.
And I'm just like, you know what, this is the energy I want
to bring. I know that it's going to come

(43:17):
at risk, a lot of risk here, butI'm also kind of like I'm
already in my 40s. Like I don't like I've been
through it. And I feel like when I see
younger Co workers of mine and, and sometimes I feel like I will
just pop off, you know, and not not a thumb, but more like pop

(43:39):
off in a way. But like, look, I think this
idea is ridiculous, this and sometimes I do it to actually
test people's reactions. And I will do that, you know,
because I'm like, you know what,I may not be fully authentic,
but I like to be very curious. And I'm like, and I would like
to observe people's behaviors like their I their body language

(43:59):
when there's like a in person staff meeting or like what
questions are being asked? And I'm like, OK, I'm kind of
reading the pulse of this and, and that kind of informs me of
the conversations. But yeah, sometimes I do make
friends on the spot because I dohave a big mouth and I get and I
get very reactionary. I mean, I don't, I don't have a

(44:20):
poker face. I mean that that doesn't work
well in situations where I really need to be more subtle.
But, but, but I think that what I also I'm very curious about is
what does trust, what does trusted leadership look like to
you? I think it's, it's seeing like

(44:44):
who's genuinely interested in the humans that they're
managing? Like are they interested in your
development outside of the company?
If you've worked with someone for four years and they've never
asked you about your career goals, that's a big sign.
They probably don't care about your identity outside of them

(45:05):
and the company. So I look for, you know, the
conversations that I have, there's been managers I've had
who have never ever brought up anything personal about
themselves, never asked me aboutmyself.
They, they don't exhibit curiosity.
And there's been, I was going tosay managers, but really a

(45:26):
manager that I've had who I feellike has really invested in me
and you know, what's the best for me, even if it's not, you
know, to their benefit. And I think I kind of look for
that. And it's just like what the
conversations are. Most people end up having calls
with their manager, I don't know, every week, every other
week, whatever the cadence is. And so those are times I kind of

(45:49):
get to know the person who is supposed to be my
representative. And I think I make very clear
indirectly that just as much as I'm working for them, they're
working for me. So you are my representative.
You are supposed to carry my needs and concerns to a higher
platform and address them and then come back to me with

(46:12):
information, right? Like I'm trusting you to
represent me. And so is this team and whoever.
And so I think I figured out ways to to show that, that being
my value in the workplace and, and that's the relationship I've
wanted. And then I just kind of see what
the person does. How do they exhibit that when we

(46:32):
have calls? Do I hear things that I've
talked to you privately about from other places?
You know, that's, that's, that'ssomething pretty simple.
It's like, are you repeating things in our private phone
calls? Because that's a, that's a sign.
That could also be a sign, but that's not somebody you can
trust. I think trust and leadership,
like when we're talking about head of HRCEOS, kind of those

(46:55):
really big roles, really is about transparency.
I mean, it's the best they can do is to be transparent.
So let's say something is happening in the company that
they know is going to upset people, whether it's layoffs,
whether it's deletion of a benefit everyone loved, whether
it's coming back into the workplace when they've been

(47:15):
remote, whatever it is, I think it just goes a long way to get
on a call and be like, listen, Iknow this is not what you guys
want. I know you're scared right now
or you're unhappy or this is putting a kink in your life.
And let me tell you as much as Ican about why this is happening,
my personal perspective on it. Because just because it's my

(47:36):
personal perspective doesn't mean that, you know, I can
implement that depending on whatrole they're in and just like
allow people to talk about theirfeelings around what's
happening. I think that goes a long way.
I often see a lot of leaders arevery obsessed with themselves.
And so they spend a lot of time talking about like the impacts

(47:56):
on them. And like, I feel this way and
like I've just been I, I, me, me, me.
And I think really letting your staff talk and that comes with
not getting mad, not getting defensive, not trying to pursue
action against them after the meetings over, you know, really
letting them say, you know, voice their concerns and giving

(48:19):
an open forum and then taking notes, like, like write it down,
like keep things in mind and then be able to follow up with
them and be like, Hey, so and somentioned last week that they
were worried about this in regards to the layoffs.
And I and I went back and got the information and just wanted
to tell you that you don't have to worry about that.
And This is why, you know, just like actually going and having a

(48:41):
back and forth, I think creates trust.
And then being as transparent asyou can, as the leader, to say
This is why this has to happen, even though we hate that it's
happening. Yeah, I think that is, I think
that really holds true because Ithink, you know, trust, trusted
leadership is about centering the needs and concerns of your

(49:01):
employees and validating them too, but also being honest about
what the next steps are too. I think that's also very
important because because, yeah,because I think if you're
talking about yourself, like, well, I feel this way and you
know, I'm worried, then you're centering yourself in this and
you're not really actually understanding what it is from

(49:23):
their perspective. And these are the folks that
actually keep the lights going on, you know, for for this
company and also allow leadership to gain the benefits
because of the people that are on the frontline staff.
I wonder about like when you're like searching for jobs because

(49:43):
I know right now the job search is wildly a shoot out right now,
a cowboy. It's like, it's like the wild,
Wild West basically. And and it's like, it's like,
how do you like find ways to identify strong alignments with

(50:04):
a prospective employer during aninterview?
Like, what comes to your mind when you're sitting down and
they're looking at your resume and asking questions and what
goes through your mind and what do you feel like are the red
flags or the green flags? That's like, oh, OK, well, I
feel like this is a person that I feel like I could trust.

(50:26):
Yeah. Well, I don't know like today I
feel like the job market has changed so much just in the last
few months. So I'm not sure what my strategy
would be today, but in the past like it has been being
especially and it depends on what what angle you're going
into getting the job. If you just need employment,
like if you are unemployed and you just need a job, you need to

(50:47):
pay your bills, you need to survive.
That is going to be a completelydifferent way you approach
something than if you are interviewing with a job and with
a purpose to like grow your career versus just pay rent.
So first of all, those are two different things.
So I'm, I'm going to speak to ifyou are just trying to grow your
career and you are not desperatefor a job, because I think if

(51:09):
you're desperate for a job, you should do whatever you need to
to get the job. I always suggest people eat and
have housing over anything. So, so yeah.
So if you are just, you know, moving on to see like see what
options are out there and see like the next best fit for you,
I would just say things in the interview that makes it very

(51:29):
clear who I am so that there is no, you know, they say
interviews are conversations between two liars.
But I do think some honesty whenyou don't, when you're not in a
high stakes situation, is, is, is great.
And I think it is like so upfront and cool of you to do.
And I think the interviewer appreciates it too.

(51:49):
And if like so, you could say I'm a person who really values
work life balance. And you don't have to go into
the details because you know, you shouldn't reveal too much.
You shouldn't reveal if you're aparent or if you're caring for
an elder or some of that, those other things to allow people to
discriminate against you. But you can say enough to to

(52:12):
talk about how I do my best workwhen I have enough personal
time, when I get to really enjoymy evenings and weekends.
I am the best at work. I come up with better ideas.
I'm present in calls, I show up for my team, I'm creative,
whatever. Relating to your job, you can

(52:34):
say things that show that this is valuable to you.
So if they already know that they're working people like
dogs, they already know not to hire you.
So you get to go ahead and create a situation where that
door isn't even open for you anymore because you would be
unhappy there anyway. So I think this is, yeah, I know
this is hard because you the goal is always to get a job.
And I think this is how our society has framed it.

(52:56):
It's all about saying the right thing to get the job.
But I think we have to stop thinking like that and
particularly as folks of color who, who live in a different
reality than than white folks around employment and resource
and then add other layers to it,right.
If you're first Gen. if you support your family, whatever.

(53:16):
I think when we do have the privilege of, of choosing the
job versus begging for it, we should take it.
And I think we should be really clear about what our, what we
want from our next employers. And we should be talking about
those things in the interview. You value this.
You're looking for cause 'cause you're interviewing them like

(53:38):
I'm over here and I'm going to dedicate 50 hours a week to you.
This is a, this is a contractualagreement and I'm supposed to be
getting just as much as you're getting.
So if I say I value my private time and my weekends or whatever
and you are telling me that I'm going to have to work, you know,
60 hour Monday through Friday and some weekends, that is going

(54:01):
to just show we are not in alignment.
If you are talking about some views on things, oftentimes it
can get a little political, right?
And you're kind of sensing, oh, we don't have the same politics
and I might encounter some issues here that are just not in
alignment with me. There you go, done, interview
done. You get to choose not to

(54:21):
continue with the interview. They get to have a sense that
you wouldn't be the a great fit for what they're offering.
I think we need to be more selective about jobs.
We need to not put ourselves in situations to cause trauma.
And I know that is a privileged thinking, but those of us who do
have more privileges, particularly than the people

(54:42):
before us and the people around us need to utilize them when we
can, right? I've been in times where I've
been desperate for a job and I have not had the privilege of
doing that. I'll take whatever, what am I
doing? I don't care if the role shifts,
I need the check. And I've had times where I'm
like, I am looking for a healthier environment for
myself. So I'm super choosy right now

(55:03):
and I'm OK with telling you that.
Yeah, Yeah. I think these are very, these
are very good approaches and a good way of framing the
conversation too, especially if you're in a position of trying
to elevate yourself when you know, you don't have as many
stakes in that moment versus like, you really do need a job.

(55:24):
I'm just going to have to do what I can, But also a reminder
that jobs are temporary too. And that's usually in the back
of my mind. Like I'm not bound for, for the
rest of my life. I'm not, you know, I'm not like,
you know, handcuffed to it for an eternity.
So I think that's also a thing that I always remind myself.
But I also tell folks to like, you know what, it's just a step

(55:45):
to what you need to do to get toto where you hope to be in the
overall long run too. So I think that's something I
try to remind myself of. And like when we seeing the DEI
guardrails come off, especially with this year, like what do you
think that impact is going to really have in the workplace for

(56:07):
people who are already, you know, trying to navigate this
specifically with people of color?
It's the wild, Wild West out here now.
Like I'm actually constantly concerned with how far this is
going to go because we're only in the beginnings of it.
We haven't even really seen the impacts.

(56:27):
I mean, we're, we're in an administration that has only
ruled for nine months and it hasfelt like 9 years.
It is insane the things that have changed so quickly and the
groups that have been affected and of course, the most
vulnerable groups are being screwed the most, right?
So I, I don't even know where we're headed with it.
I think it's, I, I want to say something positive here, but I

(56:48):
really think it's only going to get worse and it is going to
require then on the employee forus to be, to move differently in
the workplace. So some of the things we talked
about 3 years ago around professional whatever, it's not
going to apply in 2026, like, right, this is not the land
we're living in anymore. And so we're going to have to

(57:10):
adjust and we're going to have to adjust quickly and then
something else will shift and we'll have to adjust then.
So I think it's really importantfor like the modern worker to
understand that you have to stayon your toes.
Like this is a basketball game. You need to be ready to be on
offense, defense, sit the bench,whatever, and be ready to pivot
because there's not going to be a lot of time for full podcast

(57:32):
seasons and books and documentaries to roll out to
teach you what to do. Because about time we can even
give you the episode. The whole, the whole situation
has changed. So people have to really pay
attention to what is happening in their workplace.
They have to figure out what they're willing to accept and
not accept and, and also be aware of like it's going to feel

(57:55):
like we are in some of the timesour parents talk about the, some
of the stories your parents haveabout what it was like working
in whatever industry in 1980 this or 1970 this.
It's going to feel like it's like some of that is, is coming
back. And so this is also a good time
to talk to our elders. Like, how did they navigate it?

(58:18):
And, you know, at that, at thosetimes, it was more normal.
You know, they didn't know what we know now.
They didn't have 2020. We know what 2020 and 2021 felt
like and how high we got in terms of representation and
accountability. And like, we had a peak.
We did. I mean, was it honest or not?
That's up for debate. I say no.

(58:38):
I say it wasn't authentic, but we still had it.
And those systems were in place and people were being, you know,
you know, winning lawsuits when they were discriminate.
Like it was just like a little golden moment.
And and so we do know what it's like.
So it's going to be harder for us.
But I do think we can get advicefrom some of our elders about
how they navigated just straightup racist, you know, homophobic,

(59:02):
whatever environments. Like they're going to be able to
maybe instill some, some some gyms.
And it's about coping, right? Like we hope this is not a long
term situation and I'm going to move forward like it's not.
And I'm just going to say I justneed to get through whatever.
I just need to get through the year, get through the era,
whatever, and hope that there will be another day that feels

(59:26):
like 2021 felt, you know, whatever time you want to
reference. Yeah.
You know, asking folks who have been through it for advice is
like, is what we need to be doing right now.
Yeah. And I know that's what we're
starting to wrap up. Like are there things that
you're looking to do for the rest of this year and moving

(59:46):
into 2026 that you're whether it's like, you know, for
self-care purposes or professionally or what work
stories like what are you looking to do in the next couple
months? There was some like an article
that came out and then some follow up reporting that
specifically for black women, the.

(01:00:06):
Her professional life is the hardest.
And the data that was used was like, you know, black women have
some of the hardest treatment inthe workplace, and we are women,
right? So we're getting paid less, but
then we're black, so we're getting paid less despite being
the most educated group of people period, you know?

(01:00:29):
And we are also single for so much longer.
So a black woman stays single and unmarried, particularly one
that's professional, particularly one that's college
educated much longer than any other group of people.
So we don't even have the support of a partner's salary or
just partnership a lot of the times to be able to get through
some of these really difficult challenges that are placed in

(01:00:52):
front of us. And so I, and one of the reasons
I would assume that we are single for longer, it's because
we're so focused on that professional element that drive
that like this is our number onefocus.
And to be to have to deal with all of the microaggressions and
things that come your way, you have to be focused.

(01:01:14):
It doesn't feel like personally,it doesn't feel like I have a
lot of time to have hobbies, to focus on a romantic
relationship, to even travel at this point.
Like I used to, to worry about my health, to do errand, run
errand, anything that that benefits other parts of my life.
Those feel like they're on the back burner.

(01:01:35):
And my career, career, career isthe number one thing I have to
think about because I have to survive and there's no one to
back me up. And so that's the mindset a lot
of people get into and it's not good because then we neglect all
these other things. And so when we lose the job, the
300,000 women, black women who have lost their jobs don't have
the job and that certification anymore doesn't mean anything.

(01:01:57):
And you have all these degrees and you can't even pay your
bills or, you know, you're beingso mistreated in the workplace,
you are developing massive anxiety and now you're on
depression meds. I hear it all the time.
Some people have even like been in situations where, you know,
they've had heart attacks, miscarriages.
The cortisol level for black women is, is, is higher than

(01:02:20):
anything else charted. So we keep weight on longer.
We're more likely to have all these different diseases and die
early. I mean, you, you think about
the, I think she was a, a leader.
I think it's like AVP out of college.
Yes, yes, I do remember she. Was fighting with the
administration and then she justdied of like a heart attack or

(01:02:42):
something and then like the nextday they were like replace her
like, you know all of that stuffhappens.
That's a common story because and it's so sad like we we think
we need to zoom in and society has shown us like we have to be
all about our careers, but then we have like nothing else to
show for it. We have no other elements of
life. So I'm saying all this to say I

(01:03:02):
don't want to die of a heart attack in my job and on my
tombstone says she was really good at spreadsheets.
I want to have a life like I want to live and I want to
figure out how to like, enjoy the things my city has to offer,
travel, keep my body healthy, develop meaningful

(01:03:22):
relationships, you know, and do whatever else I come up with.
Maybe I want to take an adult ballet class, whatever.
Like have hobbies and have fun and have my life mean something
more than my title. And that's what I'm really going
to be focusing on This year is like, like, I think Maxine
Waters out of Cali says reclaiming my time.

(01:03:44):
Like I have spent my whole life.And I and when you really think
back, especially black and brownparents, right?
And still like, you're going to college, you know, you're going
to college at like 6 years old, You know, you know, there's
pressures. You're going to be a doctor and
you're like, what? I got to be a dog.
I got to be an engineer. I got to be all these things,
right? These things are placed over
you, over your life by the ancestors.

(01:04:06):
And it's a lot of pressure to grow up knowing that you're
expected to be the best because you have to represent everybody
that came before you and make all of them and sacrifice is
worth it. And I I love the way cultures of
color and still greatness into their children And it we we got

(01:04:27):
to have some boundary. We have to be OK with being
average some years never making it to the top of the ladder.
I never went to law school much to many people's heartbreak,
right like. Same here, I disappointed my
parents, disappointed my dad. You have to be OK with like
having years where it's just notabout that or maybe just turning

(01:04:48):
out to be average. I'd rather be average and happy,
though. And I'm going to reclaim my
time. I'm going to reclaim like all of
the other things I was put on this earth to do besides be a
workhorse. And that's what I'm going to be
focusing on this year. And hopefully that will balance
all of the nastiness happening outside all of the things I have
to report about the craziness inmy state of Texas.

(01:05:11):
Like I've got to create balance.And I think if I can do that, I
will be able to handle what is to come a lot better.
Yeah. And I think those are very
powerful, powerful words of wisdom here because I know like
when I look at when I read aboutTrisha Hersey from the NAP
ministry, when she talks about how rest is resistance.

(01:05:33):
And it's a way to counter against the, the white
supremacist engine or capitalismthat runs on the engine of white
supremacy. And, and actually, like, I
remembered another where I used to work for a foundation like
many years ago, like one of our partners, basically in a
meeting, she basically said, youknow what perfection is the is a

(01:05:56):
tool of white supremacy. And that has stayed with me
because I think about productivity, this idea of
having to perfect ourselves to, to such an extreme that it
breaks us down, like for us to get accepted, to actually get
the crumbs, you know, and, or just for survival, like if we

(01:06:17):
don't get this perfected right, we're going to get punished, you
know, And I think about that a lot too.
Like, how do I undo perfectionism to just being more
idealistic? What's realistic for me in this
moment rather than just trying to martyr myself or will myself
to their benefits? Like the perfect attendance
awards that I used to get back in the day.

(01:06:39):
It also conditioned me to be present at work all the time.
And I used to be weird about taking sick time.
Now it's like, no, I'm taking mysick time.
I need to stay healthy. You know, I had lost, you know,
my brother earlier this year. He was like 39 and, and to, to
see him try to well himself because he felt like he had

(01:07:00):
something to prove constantly it, it did it, it created a very
difficult situation for him in the way he was sustaining
himself. And I used to tell him like,
like Andy, you can't like tie down your, your job to your
identity, you know, like. You can't.
You have to, you have to like, break out of that cycle.

(01:07:22):
And I mean, that was something my parents unfortunately had to
deal with because, you know, they came in as refugees, you
know, from my mom. Like she told me three days
later, her and her family were like out in the factories
working, realizing that they hadjust went through the camps,
realizing that they had just crossed oceans and and survived
state sponsored violence. And so it's something that I'm

(01:07:45):
trying to undo, you know, for myself.
And I think for so many people, especially in the black
communities where, you know, there's slavery, hundreds of
years of slavery to segregation and, and all kinds of violence
and how that has conditioned people to have to survive, to
work to survive at their own detriments, you know, and losing

(01:08:07):
people at early ages, you know, and, and I think that's
something that I think it's veryimportant to, you know, name
that. So I really appreciate you going
into this dive with me on, you know, talking about what the
workplace could look like, but also how do we, how do we ground
ourselves to keep going but alsohopefully find joy and abundance
along the way, you know, that keeps us going and keeps us

(01:08:29):
innovating, you know? Yeah.
And like I said, how our elders have things to teach us.
Obviously they raised us. We have that element to teach
them. We get to teach them what having
fun looks like, enjoying yourself, having no schedule,
waking up late right after beingthat we were being lazy for
sleeping in because the house needs cleaning, you know, like
we get to then give that back asa gift.

(01:08:52):
And so, yeah, I just hope that everyone gets to, you know,
reclaim their their time and their joy.
Ironically, me being joy, right?Maybe it was a foreshadowing
that I should be an arbiter of that, right?
I should help people be able to welcome that in their lives.
So you're my best. Yeah, and you know, all the best
to you and I wish you nothing but joy and abundance.

(01:09:12):
And I hope that people get tunedin work stories.
I know you're too. I know that you haven't put out
an episode for the past year, but I feel like it's still very
relevant to hear these stories. But also are you also doing any
other thing that people can follow you on and or reach out
to you with? Yeah, like people can always
reach out to me on LinkedIn. I'm the only Joy Louvier that
exists in the world. So wherever you see me, it's me.

(01:09:33):
So definitely can reach out to me there.
And I am working on a new season.
So season 8 of work stories willbe out.
Maybe about time this is out or close, close to it.
It definitely will be October, so I'll be telling news stories
and I'm interested in talking todifferent people and seeing what
stories folks want, right? Like we are in a weird time.
And so sometimes you can't just put out the same content you did

(01:09:55):
for seven seasons that worked. We're not in those seasons
anymore. So I want to hear, you know
what, you know, what is plaguingpeople right now, what type of
advice they need and what type of people they want to hear from
and talk to people with, with, with intersectional, more
intersectional identities, right?
There are so many types of people and experiences that I

(01:10:17):
haven't been able to cover industries and, and
trajectories. And so I hope to do that this
season. Yeah, thank you so much and stay
tuned. All right, Thank you so much,
Joy. Have a good one you.
Too.