January 22, 2025 • 29 mins
Did you know it takes an Act of Congress to change the warning label on alcohol? It’s true! But even more crucial: how much alcohol does it take to increase your cancer risk? In this episode, Tina and Leah dive into the connection between alcohol and cancer, exploring why the Surgeon General is pushing for updated warning labels. Whether you’re sticking with your current habits or considering a mindful approach to drinking, this episode delivers eye-opening insights that might make you think twice before your next sip. Tune in to learn more!
Prior episode: Good for You? or Bad for You? Alcohol
Ireland's strong alcohol label stance
How acetaldehyde from alcohol ingestion forms in your body
Which cancers are linked to alcohol consumption?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leah (00:00):
this is a good recap of episode four for those who did
not listen to us at that time.
Tina (00:04):
It's still online.
It's still in your podcastplayer.
Leah (00:08):
I was really afraid.
That episode really, I rememberstarting off and being really
afraid that it was just going tolike piss people off.
But, you know, now
Tina (00:15):
I know.
Leah (00:16):
the Surgeon General behind
Tina (00:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Don't blame the messenger.
We didn't make the data.
We both have cocktails onoccasion, too.
So, like you said, there'snothing wrong with that.
It's
Leah (00:26):
We all have one.
Together.
Tina (00:28):
together on occasion.
It's okay.
We're, we're mindful of the riskwe're taking at that moment.
Leah (01:22):
Happy New Year, Tina
Tina (01:23):
Happy New Year, Leah.
Leah (01:24):
So we're kind of starting the, the new year with, um, some
news that isn't really newsbecause it's something we
covered like in episode four.
Tina (01:35):
Oh, yes.
I said news that isn't reallynews.
You know what I thought you weregoing to say?
That 2025 we're going to do morenews headlines.
Leah (01:43):
We are, that's actually probably a better way to start.
Thank you Tina.
Uh, we're gonna talk more aboutcancer in the news and, and
yeah, the, this big news that'sin all the headlines.
It's kind of been known for atleast 40 years
Tina (01:58):
Yes.
Leah (01:59):
and we talked about it four years ago.
Tina (02:01):
Yep.
The evil demon alcohol.
Leah (02:04):
Yeah, yeah.
Leah (2) (02:05):
So what started this whole conversation is the
Surgeon General Vivek Murthy.
He wants to put a warning labelon alcohol saying that it can
cause cancer.
Leah (02:18):
currently alcohol has the warning against, you know,
drinking alcohol while pregnantand operating heavy machinery
and driving that sort of thing.
Tina (02:26):
Yeah, I think that, I think there's a little, at the
very end on the warning it says,and other health conditions, or
something like that, somethingkind of vague about alcohol not
being great for you.
Leah (02:35):
Yeah.
Tina (02:36):
And he wants it to really be strong,
Leah (02:38):
he does.
He does.
And if you like, look at thenumbers, there's in the U.
S.
like a hundred thousand cases ofcancer can be attributed to
alcohol and 20, 000 cancerdeaths
Tina (02:52):
attributed to alcohol.
Leah (02:53):
attributed to alcohol.
Yeah.
In terms of The cancers that areassociated with alcohol
consumption.
Tina (02:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
My understanding when I waslooking at some of these news
briefs coming across is that inIreland, they've already passed
legislation that will put a verystrong warning in 2026.
alcohol causes aggressivecancers or something really like
akin to the tobacco label that Isee in Canada that said tobacco
(03:22):
kills, you know, when we werekind of hedging over here,
tobacco may cause cancer of thelung,
Leah (03:28):
Right.
Tina (03:29):
so I also read, confirmed this for me, cause I think you
looked into this further than Idid, but.
It takes an act of Congress tochange the label on the alcohol
bottles, is that true?
Leah (03:41):
Yeah.
Yeah, it does.
Tina (03:44):
That's actually, I mean, I shouldn't laugh, I just think
that it's funny, don't we usethat as like, what does it take,
an act of Congress?
You know.
Yes,
And I even watched an interviewwith the Surgeon General and he
mentioned that.
Leah (03:54):
because he's, you know, we're about to change
administrations.
And so he was saying, but youknow, it will take an act of
Congress, but I guess back inthe sixties, that's what they
did with, um, tobacco warnings.
So.
Tina (04:05):
Right.
Well, for obvious reasons,because tobacco was a huge lobby
group and they had the Congresspeople in their pockets, so of
course they wanted it to be anact of Congress, that's why it
took so darn long, even thoughwe had evidence.
Leah (04:17):
Well, you know, what's really interesting is there's
been all of this stuff aboutlike, you know, wellness
influencers and all of thesepeople have been talking about
things that are so bad for ourhealth.
And this whole alcohol thing,they haven't really said
anything about.
No one's touching it.
No, it's so funny.
And like people will get reallylike up in arms.
(04:38):
And they're like, but, but, andI'm like, well, maybe you should
check yourself.
Maybe you should like see whatyour relationship with alcohol
is.
Why are you so upset?
about this announcement.
So, um, yeah, so that's whatwe're going to talk about today
is alcohol and cancer.
And we'll talk about, what thecurrent alcohol guidelines are,
which we've talked about allthis, but then we're just going
(04:59):
to rehash this and kind of bringit, to the forefront.
Tina (05:02):
yeah, the larger context to play devil's advocate is
there's the cancer aspect, butpeople are more complex than
just cancer.
So, what are the recommendationsin the You know, heart
association world or thedementia groups, or, you know,
like alcohol itself may not havea lot of redeeming qualities for
(05:24):
health, but some of the vehiclesdo have other components that
have been advocated for health,like wine and the resveratrol
and polyphenols.
Leah (05:31):
Right.
But it's the resveratrol, it'snot the wine.
Yeah.
So, okay.
the current guideline is.
Like one drink a day for womenand two drinks for men is what's
the guideline, but in terms ofsafety, there actually is not
any safe amount.
Tina (05:50):
Mm
Leah (05:51):
Let's say someone drinks like four glasses of wine a
week.
what is recommended is that youdon't drink those all in one
sitting, that it is spread outif you were to do that.
But, just knowing that.
There really isn't any safelevel of alcohol
Tina (06:06):
Well, and I think when the people who created that
guideline for the public werepressed as to how they found.
A definitive one drink a day forwomen and two for men.
They admitted that the onlyreason they did that was because
they didn't think people woulddo zero.
They didn't think people wouldabstain from alcohol.
(06:27):
So they kind of
Leah (06:29):
hedged.
Tina (06:30):
They did.
they put it there so that therewas something, and It's more of
a perception that peoplecouldn't do abstinence from
alcohol or that that mightbackfire maybe.
I don't know.
But in their interpretation,they said the data doesn't back
it up.
We just thought that this wasmore a practical way of doing it
back in the day when theycreated the one for women, two
for men.
So I just thought, I thoughtthat was kind of interesting, a
(06:51):
little bit of artistic licensewith the science there.
Leah (06:54):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because, because we justwouldn't be capable of avoiding
it altogether.
so one of the big things thatcame out, I think from the
surgeon general's, statement isthat.
Alcohol is the third leadingpreventable cause of cancer
behind smoking and obesity.
Tina (07:16):
Yeah.
Leah (07:17):
So everyone talks about preventing or reducing your risk
of cancer, and, you know, youdon't really hear that much
about it.
Again, I'm thinking of thesewellness influencers and stuff,
like nobody's talking about likeavoiding your rosé
Tina (07:31):
No, you know, it's, it's harsh to do that because, you
know, it's that inconvenienttruth kind of idea where people
get hit with that and they don'twant to hear that.
And so if you're an influencer,you want people following you,
and if you give them bad newslike that, that's not, that's
not conducive to your brand.
Leah (07:49):
I know, but I, you know, like I've found it for so long.
I've found it so cringy wheneverit's like October and like, you
know, breast cancer awarenessmonth and there are like wine
gatherings or special bottles ofwine with pink ribbons on them,
all that pink washing, and it'saround alcohol or anything where
it's like some sort offundraiser, I'm not saying like
(08:11):
a general fundraiser, maybe likewith a big dinner and
everything.
But if it's like, I can't thinkof anything in specific.
I think of things specifically.
I don't want to say their names,but anything where it's like,
Something in beer, you know,maybe like yoga and wine for
breast cancer.
I don't know if that exists, butit probably does.
You know, I just think that's socringy
Tina (08:30):
Yeah, I understand.
Yeah.
Cause you're a purist.
And now here's my pure.
Yeah.
Because you're literally sayingthat that's a carcinogen you're
giving out
Leah (08:40):
right?
It's like, it's like, let's do alung cancer, fundraiser with,
uh, radon and cigarettes, youknow?
Tina (08:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So here's the big picture.
Here's my question.
It's clearly carcinogenic.
I mean, that's not evendisputed.
I mean, the science is there.
We can talk about that There issome data showing that people
who a drink had lessneurodegeneration.
For example, so, so my
Leah (09:08):
A drink of what?
A drink of what?
Tina (09:10):
alcohol,
Leah (09:11):
Any alcohol.
Tina (09:12):
I think it was various types of alcohol, like a drink a
day.
So I'm only saying this becausein the real world, let's face
it, someone has a half a glassof wine or a smidge of something
and it takes their stress from,a super high level to a lower
level.
I don't know.
Some, sometimes I'm like, Idon't know.
Like, yeah, you're, you'reright.
(09:33):
Doing a detriment in the longrun because it's clearly
carcinogenic, but at that momentdoes the De stressing give you
enough benefit for your overallhealth that it cancels out.
You know what I
Leah (09:45):
Yeah.
I mean, then that would betrying to find a different way
to de stress
Tina (09:49):
for
Leah (09:49):
To To replace it.
Tina (09:52):
yeah,
Leah (09:53):
yeah, because I think there were some studies showing
that drinking red wine decreasesthe risk of heart attack, but
then like alcohol increases yourrisk of hypertension and other
things.
So it's like, it's such a like
Tina (10:06):
Yeah,
Leah (10:07):
anyways.
Um, okay.
So I want to talk about likewhat standard drinks are.
So in the U S.
Uh, serving of alcohol is fivefluid ounces of wine, 12 ounces
of beer, or, one and a halfounces of liquor.
Tina (10:22):
that's a serving
Leah (10:23):
That's a serving of alcohol.
Tina (10:25):
But, we have to add to this, that is what beer used to
be.
That was like, our good oldBudweiser and such.
Leah (10:32):
I mean, it still is.
That's your average beer.
That's not your craft,
Tina (10:35):
Right.
Leah (10:35):
fancy IPA type.
The thing I
Tina (10:39):
Yes.
So, I thought it was four ouncesof wine.
You sure it's five?
Leah (10:44):
saw was five
Tina (10:45):
Okay.
Leah (10:45):
because I just looked it up.
Tina (10:47):
So,
Leah (10:47):
Maybe they increased it.
Tina (10:49):
What's that?
Leah (10:50):
Maybe they
Tina (10:51):
Yeah, right?
The powers that be increased it.
The wine industry was there.
Um, the higher the alcoholcontent, obviously the lower the
volume you can do.
So with beer, if it's a four or5 percent beer, you can get 12
ounces.
But if it's a six to 8 percentbeer, 12 ounces is going to be
Leah (11:07):
A lot.
Yeah.
Tina (11:08):
than one serving.
Leah (11:10):
Yeah.
So, um, the cancers that areimplicated in alcohol
consumption are breast and it'shormone receptor positive HER2
negative breast is one of them.
And I think the other one islobular, colorectal cancer,
esophageal cancer, liver, oralcancers.
(11:33):
Um, and then pharyngeal, yourpharynx, laryngeal cancer.
Tina (11:38):
hmm.
Leah (11:38):
So, and it doesn't matter what you drink.
It's not like, oh, well, then Ijust won't drink liquor, I'll
just drink beer.
It doesn't matter.
It's alcohol in general.
Tina (11:45):
Mm hmm.
Leah (11:45):
and then this is kind of a interesting statistic that for
breast cancer itself, 16.
4 percent of total breast cancercases are attributable to
alcohol.
Tina (11:57):
Wow.
Leah (11:58):
Yeah.
Tina (11:59):
That seems like a lot.
Leah (12:00):
It does.
It does.
you know, we've both hadpatients who've never had a
stitch of alcohol in their lifeand they've had breast cancer.
So, you know, it's breast cancerhappens.
But it is it is a big number.
Tina (12:12):
It seems like, well, it's more than my population, but
maybe I don't have the generalpopulation coming through my
doors when I practice, right?
So,
Leah (12:20):
You're right.
You because because in privatepractice, you tend to have
people who are morenaturopathic, perhaps a little
bit more mindful of theirconsumption.
Tina (12:32):
Yeah.
Yeah, I do recall that oneincidence of a woman who I
actually, I was actually avisiting doctor in Indiana at
the time when I asked her whatshe drank, and she said she had
a drink every night when she gothome, and I said, Oh, what do
you drink?
And she said, I drink whiskey.
I believe it was whiskey.
I know it was hard liquor.
And I said, So you only have onedrink?
(12:52):
She said, Yes.
And I said, How big is yourglass?
And she's, she kind of smiledwryly.
She's like, It's a, it's like ahighball glass.
It's probably about four ounces.
So
Leah (13:03):
like she's having like, you know, double shot at
Tina (13:05):
yeah, so all that is is a risk factor.
It doesn't mean it caused hercancer.
I, I want to be really carefulabout that because I think
blaming people for their owncancer is a really dangerous
place to go.
But it's no different than anyother risk factor for any other
condition or something out inthe world.
I mean, it's, it's, You controlthe risk factors that you can
control in your behavior andyour lifestyle as best you can,
(13:27):
because there are many riskfactors you can't control, like
your own You know, familyhistory, for example, your
genes,
Leah (13:33):
Or the exposures that we get every single day, you know,
from the air and the soil, likewe can't control those things.
Tina (13:40):
right, right.
So risk factors add up.
So if somebody is, I don't know,they're sedentary and they are
drinking a lot and they end up,um, taking on smoking, I mean,
now you're, you're, you'regetting an additive effect of
risk factors as you pile themon.
So I want to say that just to beclear that even this woman who
(14:02):
I, Had a lot of empathy forbecause, you know, she didn't
know that that was a risk factorfor breast cancer until she was
told afterwards, and there's noguarantee that was what caused
it.
Could have been something
Leah (14:11):
No, and I mean, that's where we met was at that cancer
center in Indiana.
And you know, we had a lot ofpatients who worked in factories
and they worked aroundformaldehyde and all these other
chips and chemicals.
And so it's the compounding ofevery single thing.
It's not the one thing.
Um.
Yeah.
So, yeah, for sure.
So, okay, let's talk about whatis it about alcohol that is
(14:34):
carcinogenic.
And the first thing that wealways talk about is
acetaldehyde.
Tina (14:39):
Mm hmm.
Leah (14:41):
And this is a compound that damages DNA
Tina (14:45):
Directly.
Yes.
Leah (14:47):
Yeah.
So that's kind of like The bigone.
And it's also the hardest one tosay.
had to get that out of the
Tina (14:54):
Yeah.
Acetaldehyde is, um, it blocksthe repair of the DNA and it
also increases inflammation.
It also increases theinflammatory state within the
body.
Mm hmm.
Leah (15:06):
Yeah.
So oxidative stress would belike another cause.
And so that kind of is a nicesegue.
Good going.
Um, and so oxidative stress alsodamages DNA and increases
inflammation.
Tina (15:18):
yeah, the other piece alcohol does directly is it
affects our Nitric oxidepathways to create free radicals
that way too.
So nitric oxide is Not goodbecause nitric oxide within the
cells and within the nucleus canblock DNA repair as well.
So That's another pathway.
(15:38):
And the other that I thinkabout, and I don't think it's
well established, but it makesperfect sense, is alcohol can
lead to a deficiency in certainB vitamins, and it can lead to a
deficiency in folic acid, orfolate, more, more, um,
precisely.
So folate is needed for normalcells to reproduce in our bodies
(15:59):
and we need folate when DNAreplicates within our cells
within normal cellular repairday to day and so alcohol
leading to a deficiency offolate can probably also have an
additive effect to the wholecarcinogenic process.
Leah (16:12):
Yeah.
the other thing is that itaffects our hormones.
So it affects the endocrinesystem overall.
So I think in my mind, I alwaysthink like, yeah, it can affect,
how estrogen and other hormonesare metabolized.
But it affects the entire,hypothalamic axes, like it
affects thyroid, um, and,insulin growth factor.
(16:34):
all of the other, the otherhormones in the endocrine
system.
So that's one thing that I don'tthink a lot of people are aware
of.
And As we've discussed in otherepisodes, hormones are
messengers and so alcohol canchange how these chemical
messengers are made and howthey, um, communicate with each
(16:55):
other and that could be likeneurotransmitters.
it can be just, you know, thehormones, estrogen,
testosterone, um, progesteronethat we think of.
it's affecting the communicationon how our cells talk to each
other.
Tina (17:07):
Mm hmm.
Yeah, and I think another thingthat alcohol does, which is just
logical, and I don't know howmuch research has been done in
this so far, it affects thebiomes of the body.
I mean, most bacteria can't livein alcohol.
And so when you take alcoholdown, whether you're affecting
your mouth or anywhere alongyour GI tract, your small
intestine, your large intestine,you're probably affecting your
(17:30):
microbiome in ways that we'rejust beginning to understand and
we know That that microbiome hasa lot to do with our overall
health and our immune system Andso there's the direct effects.
I would call that an indirecteffect because it probably
Adversely affects thepopulations there.
That would be my guess Becauseit's not really considered a
healthy thing to be consumingalcohol.
Leah (17:50):
and, you know, in the research that I did for this,
for this episode that nobodymentioned microbiome.
And so I, I think.
I think that's a great thing tolook at and it is something that
we tend to mention at least onceevery couple of episodes.
So, Yeah.
it's, that's a, I mean, that's areally interesting, cause I
mean, I, I saw the, you know,about it causing nutrient
(18:12):
deficiencies and it being emptycalories, but yeah, nothing said
directly, you're kind of asolvent.
Tina (18:19):
yeah You're drinking something bacterial can't live
in so that can't be good You'redefinitely monkeying with your
microbiota in unknown ways.
Leah (18:30):
yeah, yeah.
So, I mean, do with theinformation as, as you, as you
wish.
I think just kind of lettingmore people know when I was
reading an article, it said thatless than half of Americans knew
that alcohol was carcinogenic.
Tina (18:45):
I saw that
Leah (18:46):
So I guess not enough people listen to our episode.
So maybe they'll listen to thisone, but, um, yeah.
And you know, there are optionsmore and more options I'm
seeing, at least in Portlandarea, um, that if you go to a
bar restaurant, there aremocktails there.
(19:06):
We did, I think it was fouryears ago, we did a post on,
different mock tales and, Non orlow alcohol products.
So we'll put a link to that inthe show notes and maybe I'll
add onto it.
I'm not going to promiseanything cause
Tina (19:24):
So, so here's a, here's a legitimate question.
What about cultures who drinkevery day?
Like I'm thinking of Italy, goto Italy, people have a glass of
wine with lunch and then they goback to work.
I mean, it's just part of whatyou do.
Leah (19:38):
I mean, this is worldwide.
Obviously this is something thatis occurring worldwide.
I think, there are, I don'tthink I have my notes in front
of me.
741, 300 cancer cases worldwidecan be attributed to, Alcohol.
And that's from 2020.
So this is a worldwide problem.
I don't know.
(19:59):
And I did not look up specificthings with other countries.
the wines in Italy and I couldbe wrong, but but it was my
impression that they are lowerin alcohol.
Tina (20:11):
Oh yeah.
Leah (20:12):
yeah.
And like the ones that, thatthere are certain ones that
people would drink, like duringthe daytime, the more social
wines.
And it was my understanding.
Those are lower in alcohol.
I don't know specifically ifthat is true.
you know, like you said, likeit's other factors that, you
know, in, involved.
So, and, and it's hard to saybecause in Europe people smoke a
lot.
So you've got people smoking anddrinking alcohol.
(20:33):
I have no, I have no idea howthey do that.
It's kind of like the Frenchparadox, right?
Tina (20:38):
Right.
Leah (20:39):
Throw in some fatty foods.
And I mean, is it because of thediet that they eat?
I don't know because Americandiet versus, you know, uh,
Italian diet.
We eat far more ultra processedfoods.
Um,
Tina (20:53):
Yeah.
I couldn't believe the statsaround that.
I recently saw 60 percent ofpeople's calories or something
was ultra processed food.
Leah (21:01):
yeah.
And we'll go, we'll, we're goingto talk about that in another
episode and we're going to talkabout the difference between
processed food and ultraprocessed food.
But yeah, so I don't, you know,all of these other factors, is
it, do they have less stress intheir life?
Do they
Tina (21:14):
Right.
Leah (21:15):
mechanisms?
Like my,
Tina (21:16):
Well, it is, their entire food system is different though.
So I personally think, let's sayyou're eating all Italian diet
here in the United States,sourcing everything from your
local grocer here in the U.
S., it doesn't seem as healthyas Italy because of our mass
production of everything.
Because we pick the tomato whenit's green and then we throw
some chemical on it to make itred just before it's at the
(21:39):
shelves.
We put it in a gigantic youknow, 18 Wheeler, ship it across
the country.
It's just so different.
Like our food systems don'tserve us.
I mean, unless you have localgrowers and you can constantly
go to the market.
I mean, it's, it's hard here tomimic exactly the, the, the diet
they have there.
Even the oils.
Like I was in Italy last spring,every restaurant we went to had
(22:02):
its own olive oil from their ownlittle small olive grower down
the road, and we were not goingto fancy restaurants.
These were just regularrestaurants, some of them very
touristy, but it was just adifferent way of obtaining your
food.
And here, we just haveagribusiness, and I think that
(22:22):
that's a huge problem.
Leah (22:24):
Do they, and now we're going into like more like
tourism conversations, but it'smy dream to go to Italy.
Do they kind of linger overtheir meals?
Like in Spain, like in Spain, Iremember, it's not like,
Standing over the stove andshoveling food in your mouth or
quickly eating at the table andthen clearing the plates like
it's seems like it's a much morerelaxed, almost like type of
(22:45):
thing.
Tina (22:46):
I would agree.
I think the food is almostincidental to the convivial
company you're keeping duringthe meal.
So, the food happens, but thebulk of what's happening is the
interaction of the people at thetable.
And, of course, you're doing itover food, but Yes, it's a very
different experience where theconviviality and the food seem
to be on par rather than I'msitting down to eat, they're
(23:08):
sitting down to visit andthey're eating while they visit.
Leah (23:13):
Well, yeah.
And again, this, this is aworldwide concern.
And so I don't know thespecifics on, um, the statistics
from other, other countries.
So, I mean, it is somethinginteresting for us to look into.
Tina (23:26):
I do know that the Mediterranean diet does lead to
greater longevity in general,whether we're talking about
Greece or Spain or Italy so wedo know that eating a lot of
plant foods, maybe that somehownegates some of the alcohol
carcinogenesis too, becausewe're talking about oxidative
damage.
Leah (23:41):
Right.
Colorful foods.
Right.
And then also you were talkingabout, you know, it's, it's very
social.
There's like a sense ofcommunity, which I think we're
really lacking in the U.
S.
And so, I mean, who knows, we'reat this point, we're just, we're
spitballing.
But I think these are things toconsider.
Tina (23:59):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, it's, it's clear thatsome of our habits here in
America are not good for ourhealth and, uh, isolation.
Leah (24:07):
alcohol.
They're just not.
Tina (24:08):
isolation is definitely high on that list.
Leah (24:10):
Yeah.
So, yeah, typically we talkabout things that you can do to
decrease your risk and
Tina (24:17):
Can I highly recommend the mocktails?
The recipes you put on the blogthat you already mentioned.
Leah (24:22):
Yes.
Tina (24:22):
I highly recommend trying to make some mocktails at home
if a cocktail is your thing.
I think kombucha in a glass, puta wine glass, but you pour your
kombucha in there.
I think that's a nice way to,like, feel like you're doing
something that's alcoholic, butyou're not.
Yeah.
Leah (24:35):
that is and I actually drink kombucha from we have
these like glasses that looklike cans.
They're kind of can shape oftheir glasses.
And that's how I drink mykombucha.
Tina (24:43):
yeah,
Leah (24:44):
And we're sometimes I drink it out of a highball
class.
Tina (24:47):
yeah,
Leah (24:48):
And I'm not saying I don't drink alcohol.
I do drink alcohol.
I try to limit it.
Like if I go out, you know, onedrink, not perfect.
Um, but, um, And I don't go outa lot.
And I think that's when I goout, if I go out, but, um, yeah.
And I do have a habit of, if Igo out, I tend to, if they have
(25:10):
fries, I'll have fries andthat's probably a really bad
thing to have, you know, that's,that's not really as good as a,
as I think it is.
So, yeah, just being mindful ofrisk factors in your life.
I think that's kind of whatyou're
Tina (25:25):
And we didn't really mention this, but there is a
linear relationship.
So it's If one drink is bad, twodrinks is worse, three drinks is
worse, four drinks is worse, asfar as risk goes.
So we know that people who drinkheavily have a much, much higher
risk, you know, four drinks aday or more.
And, and that goes on occasiontoo.
Like you shouldn't really overdrink to the point of getting
(25:48):
drunk or buzzed.
that's when you know that it'stoxic to your brain as well, for
sure, because that's why it isintoxication, toxic, So it's
toxic to your brain at thatmoment.
It's easy to remember.
I didn't make that up.
Some smart neurologist in theintegrative space said it and I
was like, Oh, that's a reallygood point.
Um, so yeah, so if you're goingto drink, don't over drink.
(26:14):
because I think you've passedthe point of any benefit if
there is any, whether it's foryour heart or your brain or
anything else.
Leah (26:19):
I think that's good advice.
Tina (26:22):
I like to do some absolute.
Leah (26:23):
It's not even in moderation.
It's less than moderation.
It's, you know, disperse youralcohol with a club soda.
Like, I think having that samefeel.
And that was the thing when Iwas making mocktails.
Disperse?
You know what I'm trying to say.
But, you know, like interintermix.
And so if you have somethingthat also has bubbles, like a
(26:44):
kombucha or like a club sodawith lime or twist or, you know,
a splash of juice or somethinglike that's that mouthfeel.
And that's what's really hard toreplicate with, um, with
mocktails.
But, um, yeah, putting a littlecitrus in there, putting a
little bubble.
Tina (27:00):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
I, I totally agree.
Or just using some bitters withthe bubbly water.
Makes you think you have acocktail because there's kind of
that, another flavor and there'sall sorts of bitters out there
now, not just Angostura, butthere's all sorts of nice
bitters available in the liquorstores or grocery stores,
depending what state you're in.
Leah (27:18):
Or the Portland Airport PDX, they've got, they've got
the place that sells whiskey andthey've got a bunch of different
bitters there.
And yeah, I mean, if you're, youknow, having that small amount,
I mean, there's, it's a very,very small amount of alcohol
that would be in bitters
Tina (27:32):
Yeah.
I don't think there's much inthere.
It's almost like a tincture.
you only use drops.
Yeah, Yeah, So, unlike atincture, which I dose in
teaspoons for some people.
I mean, bitters is less thanthat.
Leah (27:44):
Yeah.
I wonder how much alcohol's in aserving of NyQuil.
Okay, those are questions thatwe're going to answer at some
other time.
Because I think this is it.
I think we've covered it.
I think, this is a good recap ofepisode four for those who did
not listen to us at that time.
Tina (28:00):
It's still online.
It's still in your podcastplayer.
Leah (28:04):
Yeah, so, so see how we were getting around.
I was really afraid.
That episode really, I rememberstarting off and being really
afraid that it was just going tolike piss people off.
But, you know, now
Tina (28:14):
I know.
Leah (28:14):
the Surgeon General behind
Tina (28:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Don't blame the messenger.
We didn't make the data.
We both have cocktails onoccasion, too.
So, like you said, there'snothing wrong with that.
It's
Leah (28:25):
We all have one.
Together.
Tina (28:27):
together on occasion.
It's okay.
We're, we're mindful of the riskwe're taking at that moment.
Cause that's what you get to doas an adult.
Leah (28:35):
so on that note, I'm Dr.
Leah Sherman,
Tina (28:37):
Kazer.
Leah (28:39):
and this is The Cancer Pod.
Tina (28:40):
Until next time.
Leah (28:41):
Thanks for listening to the cancer pod.
Remember to subscribe, reviewand rate us wherever you get
your podcasts.
Follow us on social media forupdates, and as always, this is
not medical advice.
These are our opinions.
Talk to your doctor, but forchanging anything related to
your treatment plan.
The cancer pod is hosted by me,Dr.
(29:01):
Leah Sherman.
And by Dr.
Tina Kaczor music is by KevinSee you next time.
this is a good recap of episode four for those who did
not listen to us at that time.
Tina (00:04):
It's still online.
It's still in your podcastplayer.
Leah (00:08):
I was really afraid.
That episode really, I rememberstarting off and being really
afraid that it was just going tolike piss people off.
But, you know, now
Tina (00:15):
I know.
Leah (00:16):
the Surgeon General behind
Tina (00:17):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Don't blame the messenger.
We didn't make the data.
We both have cocktails onoccasion, too.
So, like you said, there'snothing wrong with that.
It's
Leah (00:26):
We all have one.
Together.
Tina (00:28):
together on occasion.
It's okay.
We're, we're mindful of the riskwe're taking at that moment.
Leah (01:22):
Happy New Year, Tina
Tina (01:23):
Happy New Year, Leah.
Leah (01:24):
So we're kind of starting the, the new year with, um, some
news that isn't really newsbecause it's something we
covered like in episode four.
Tina (01:35):
Oh, yes.
I said news that isn't reallynews.
You know what I thought you weregoing to say?
That 2025 we're going to do morenews headlines.
Leah (01:43):
We are, that's actually probably a better way to start.
Thank you Tina.
Uh, we're gonna talk more aboutcancer in the news and, and
yeah, the, this big news that'sin all the headlines.
It's kind of been known for atleast 40 years
Tina (01:58):
Yes.
Leah (01:59):
and we talked about it four years ago.
Tina (02:01):
Yep.
The evil demon alcohol.
Leah (02:04):
Yeah, yeah.
Leah (2) (02:05):
So what started this whole conversation is the
Surgeon General Vivek Murthy.
He wants to put a warning labelon alcohol saying that it can
cause cancer.
Leah (02:18):
currently alcohol has the warning against, you know,
drinking alcohol while pregnantand operating heavy machinery
and driving that sort of thing.
Tina (02:26):
Yeah, I think that, I think there's a little, at the
very end on the warning it says,and other health conditions, or
something like that, somethingkind of vague about alcohol not
being great for you.
Leah (02:35):
Yeah.
Tina (02:36):
And he wants it to really be strong,
Leah (02:38):
he does.
He does.
And if you like, look at thenumbers, there's in the U.
S.
like a hundred thousand cases ofcancer can be attributed to
alcohol and 20, 000 cancerdeaths
Tina (02:52):
attributed to alcohol.
Leah (02:53):
attributed to alcohol.
Yeah.
In terms of The cancers that areassociated with alcohol
consumption.
Tina (02:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
My understanding when I waslooking at some of these news
briefs coming across is that inIreland, they've already passed
legislation that will put a verystrong warning in 2026.
alcohol causes aggressivecancers or something really like
akin to the tobacco label that Isee in Canada that said tobacco
(03:22):
kills, you know, when we werekind of hedging over here,
tobacco may cause cancer of thelung,
Leah (03:28):
Right.
Tina (03:29):
so I also read, confirmed this for me, cause I think you
looked into this further than Idid, but.
It takes an act of Congress tochange the label on the alcohol
bottles, is that true?
Leah (03:41):
Yeah.
Yeah, it does.
Tina (03:44):
That's actually, I mean, I shouldn't laugh, I just think
that it's funny, don't we usethat as like, what does it take,
an act of Congress?
You know.
Yes,
And I even watched an interviewwith the Surgeon General and he
mentioned that.
Leah (03:54):
because he's, you know, we're about to change
administrations.
And so he was saying, but youknow, it will take an act of
Congress, but I guess back inthe sixties, that's what they
did with, um, tobacco warnings.
So.
Tina (04:05):
Right.
Well, for obvious reasons,because tobacco was a huge lobby
group and they had the Congresspeople in their pockets, so of
course they wanted it to be anact of Congress, that's why it
took so darn long, even thoughwe had evidence.
Leah (04:17):
Well, you know, what's really interesting is there's
been all of this stuff aboutlike, you know, wellness
influencers and all of thesepeople have been talking about
things that are so bad for ourhealth.
And this whole alcohol thing,they haven't really said
anything about.
No one's touching it.
No, it's so funny.
And like people will get reallylike up in arms.
(04:38):
And they're like, but, but, andI'm like, well, maybe you should
check yourself.
Maybe you should like see whatyour relationship with alcohol
is.
Why are you so upset?
about this announcement.
So, um, yeah, so that's whatwe're going to talk about today
is alcohol and cancer.
And we'll talk about, what thecurrent alcohol guidelines are,
which we've talked about allthis, but then we're just going
(04:59):
to rehash this and kind of bringit, to the forefront.
Tina (05:02):
yeah, the larger context to play devil's advocate is
there's the cancer aspect, butpeople are more complex than
just cancer.
So, what are the recommendationsin the You know, heart
association world or thedementia groups, or, you know,
like alcohol itself may not havea lot of redeeming qualities for
(05:24):
health, but some of the vehiclesdo have other components that
have been advocated for health,like wine and the resveratrol
and polyphenols.
Leah (05:31):
Right.
But it's the resveratrol, it'snot the wine.
Yeah.
So, okay.
the current guideline is.
Like one drink a day for womenand two drinks for men is what's
the guideline, but in terms ofsafety, there actually is not
any safe amount.
Tina (05:50):
Mm
Leah (05:51):
Let's say someone drinks like four glasses of wine a
week.
what is recommended is that youdon't drink those all in one
sitting, that it is spread outif you were to do that.
But, just knowing that.
There really isn't any safelevel of alcohol
Tina (06:06):
Well, and I think when the people who created that
guideline for the public werepressed as to how they found.
A definitive one drink a day forwomen and two for men.
They admitted that the onlyreason they did that was because
they didn't think people woulddo zero.
They didn't think people wouldabstain from alcohol.
(06:27):
So they kind of
Leah (06:29):
hedged.
Tina (06:30):
They did.
they put it there so that therewas something, and It's more of
a perception that peoplecouldn't do abstinence from
alcohol or that that mightbackfire maybe.
I don't know.
But in their interpretation,they said the data doesn't back
it up.
We just thought that this wasmore a practical way of doing it
back in the day when theycreated the one for women, two
for men.
So I just thought, I thoughtthat was kind of interesting, a
(06:51):
little bit of artistic licensewith the science there.
Leah (06:54):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because, because we justwouldn't be capable of avoiding
it altogether.
so one of the big things thatcame out, I think from the
surgeon general's, statement isthat.
Alcohol is the third leadingpreventable cause of cancer
behind smoking and obesity.
Tina (07:16):
Yeah.
Leah (07:17):
So everyone talks about preventing or reducing your risk
of cancer, and, you know, youdon't really hear that much
about it.
Again, I'm thinking of thesewellness influencers and stuff,
like nobody's talking about likeavoiding your rosé
Tina (07:31):
No, you know, it's, it's harsh to do that because, you
know, it's that inconvenienttruth kind of idea where people
get hit with that and they don'twant to hear that.
And so if you're an influencer,you want people following you,
and if you give them bad newslike that, that's not, that's
not conducive to your brand.
Leah (07:49):
I know, but I, you know, like I've found it for so long.
I've found it so cringy wheneverit's like October and like, you
know, breast cancer awarenessmonth and there are like wine
gatherings or special bottles ofwine with pink ribbons on them,
all that pink washing, and it'saround alcohol or anything where
it's like some sort offundraiser, I'm not saying like
(08:11):
a general fundraiser, maybe likewith a big dinner and
everything.
But if it's like, I can't thinkof anything in specific.
I think of things specifically.
I don't want to say their names,but anything where it's like,
Something in beer, you know,maybe like yoga and wine for
breast cancer.
I don't know if that exists, butit probably does.
You know, I just think that's socringy
Tina (08:30):
Yeah, I understand.
Yeah.
Cause you're a purist.
And now here's my pure.
Yeah.
Because you're literally sayingthat that's a carcinogen you're
giving out
Leah (08:40):
right?
It's like, it's like, let's do alung cancer, fundraiser with,
uh, radon and cigarettes, youknow?
Tina (08:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So here's the big picture.
Here's my question.
It's clearly carcinogenic.
I mean, that's not evendisputed.
I mean, the science is there.
We can talk about that There issome data showing that people
who a drink had lessneurodegeneration.
For example, so, so my
Leah (09:08):
A drink of what?
A drink of what?
Tina (09:10):
alcohol,
Leah (09:11):
Any alcohol.
Tina (09:12):
I think it was various types of alcohol, like a drink a
day.
So I'm only saying this becausein the real world, let's face
it, someone has a half a glassof wine or a smidge of something
and it takes their stress from,a super high level to a lower
level.
I don't know.
Some, sometimes I'm like, Idon't know.
Like, yeah, you're, you'reright.
(09:33):
Doing a detriment in the longrun because it's clearly
carcinogenic, but at that momentdoes the De stressing give you
enough benefit for your overallhealth that it cancels out.
You know what I
Leah (09:45):
Yeah.
I mean, then that would betrying to find a different way
to de stress
Tina (09:49):
for
Leah (09:49):
To To replace it.
Tina (09:52):
yeah,
Leah (09:53):
yeah, because I think there were some studies showing
that drinking red wine decreasesthe risk of heart attack, but
then like alcohol increases yourrisk of hypertension and other
things.
So it's like, it's such a like
Tina (10:06):
Yeah,
Leah (10:07):
anyways.
Um, okay.
So I want to talk about likewhat standard drinks are.
So in the U S.
Uh, serving of alcohol is fivefluid ounces of wine, 12 ounces
of beer, or, one and a halfounces of liquor.
Tina (10:22):
that's a serving
Leah (10:23):
That's a serving of alcohol.
Tina (10:25):
But, we have to add to this, that is what beer used to
be.
That was like, our good oldBudweiser and such.
Leah (10:32):
I mean, it still is.
That's your average beer.
That's not your craft,
Tina (10:35):
Right.
Leah (10:35):
fancy IPA type.
The thing I
Tina (10:39):
Yes.
So, I thought it was four ouncesof wine.
You sure it's five?
Leah (10:44):
saw was five
Tina (10:45):
Okay.
Leah (10:45):
because I just looked it up.
Tina (10:47):
So,
Leah (10:47):
Maybe they increased it.
Tina (10:49):
What's that?
Leah (10:50):
Maybe they
Tina (10:51):
Yeah, right?
The powers that be increased it.
The wine industry was there.
Um, the higher the alcoholcontent, obviously the lower the
volume you can do.
So with beer, if it's a four or5 percent beer, you can get 12
ounces.
But if it's a six to 8 percentbeer, 12 ounces is going to be
Leah (11:07):
A lot.
Yeah.
Tina (11:08):
than one serving.
Leah (11:10):
Yeah.
So, um, the cancers that areimplicated in alcohol
consumption are breast and it'shormone receptor positive HER2
negative breast is one of them.
And I think the other one islobular, colorectal cancer,
esophageal cancer, liver, oralcancers.
(11:33):
Um, and then pharyngeal, yourpharynx, laryngeal cancer.
Tina (11:38):
hmm.
Leah (11:38):
So, and it doesn't matter what you drink.
It's not like, oh, well, then Ijust won't drink liquor, I'll
just drink beer.
It doesn't matter.
It's alcohol in general.
Tina (11:45):
Mm hmm.
Leah (11:45):
and then this is kind of a interesting statistic that for
breast cancer itself, 16.
4 percent of total breast cancercases are attributable to
alcohol.
Tina (11:57):
Wow.
Leah (11:58):
Yeah.
Tina (11:59):
That seems like a lot.
Leah (12:00):
It does.
It does.
you know, we've both hadpatients who've never had a
stitch of alcohol in their lifeand they've had breast cancer.
So, you know, it's breast cancerhappens.
But it is it is a big number.
Tina (12:12):
It seems like, well, it's more than my population, but
maybe I don't have the generalpopulation coming through my
doors when I practice, right?
So,
Leah (12:20):
You're right.
You because because in privatepractice, you tend to have
people who are morenaturopathic, perhaps a little
bit more mindful of theirconsumption.
Tina (12:32):
Yeah.
Yeah, I do recall that oneincidence of a woman who I
actually, I was actually avisiting doctor in Indiana at
the time when I asked her whatshe drank, and she said she had
a drink every night when she gothome, and I said, Oh, what do
you drink?
And she said, I drink whiskey.
I believe it was whiskey.
I know it was hard liquor.
And I said, So you only have onedrink?
(12:52):
She said, Yes.
And I said, How big is yourglass?
And she's, she kind of smiledwryly.
She's like, It's a, it's like ahighball glass.
It's probably about four ounces.
So
Leah (13:03):
like she's having like, you know, double shot at
Tina (13:05):
yeah, so all that is is a risk factor.
It doesn't mean it caused hercancer.
I, I want to be really carefulabout that because I think
blaming people for their owncancer is a really dangerous
place to go.
But it's no different than anyother risk factor for any other
condition or something out inthe world.
I mean, it's, it's, You controlthe risk factors that you can
control in your behavior andyour lifestyle as best you can,
(13:27):
because there are many riskfactors you can't control, like
your own You know, familyhistory, for example, your
genes,
Leah (13:33):
Or the exposures that we get every single day, you know,
from the air and the soil, likewe can't control those things.
Tina (13:40):
right, right.
So risk factors add up.
So if somebody is, I don't know,they're sedentary and they are
drinking a lot and they end up,um, taking on smoking, I mean,
now you're, you're, you'regetting an additive effect of
risk factors as you pile themon.
So I want to say that just to beclear that even this woman who
(14:02):
I, Had a lot of empathy forbecause, you know, she didn't
know that that was a risk factorfor breast cancer until she was
told afterwards, and there's noguarantee that was what caused
it.
Could have been something
Leah (14:11):
No, and I mean, that's where we met was at that cancer
center in Indiana.
And you know, we had a lot ofpatients who worked in factories
and they worked aroundformaldehyde and all these other
chips and chemicals.
And so it's the compounding ofevery single thing.
It's not the one thing.
Um.
Yeah.
So, yeah, for sure.
So, okay, let's talk about whatis it about alcohol that is
(14:34):
carcinogenic.
And the first thing that wealways talk about is
acetaldehyde.
Tina (14:39):
Mm hmm.
Leah (14:41):
And this is a compound that damages DNA
Tina (14:45):
Directly.
Yes.
Leah (14:47):
Yeah.
So that's kind of like The bigone.
And it's also the hardest one tosay.
had to get that out of the
Tina (14:54):
Yeah.
Acetaldehyde is, um, it blocksthe repair of the DNA and it
also increases inflammation.
It also increases theinflammatory state within the
body.
Mm hmm.
Leah (15:06):
Yeah.
So oxidative stress would belike another cause.
And so that kind of is a nicesegue.
Good going.
Um, and so oxidative stress alsodamages DNA and increases
inflammation.
Tina (15:18):
yeah, the other piece alcohol does directly is it
affects our Nitric oxidepathways to create free radicals
that way too.
So nitric oxide is Not goodbecause nitric oxide within the
cells and within the nucleus canblock DNA repair as well.
So That's another pathway.
(15:38):
And the other that I thinkabout, and I don't think it's
well established, but it makesperfect sense, is alcohol can
lead to a deficiency in certainB vitamins, and it can lead to a
deficiency in folic acid, orfolate, more, more, um,
precisely.
So folate is needed for normalcells to reproduce in our bodies
(15:59):
and we need folate when DNAreplicates within our cells
within normal cellular repairday to day and so alcohol
leading to a deficiency offolate can probably also have an
additive effect to the wholecarcinogenic process.
Leah (16:12):
Yeah.
the other thing is that itaffects our hormones.
So it affects the endocrinesystem overall.
So I think in my mind, I alwaysthink like, yeah, it can affect,
how estrogen and other hormonesare metabolized.
But it affects the entire,hypothalamic axes, like it
affects thyroid, um, and,insulin growth factor.
(16:34):
all of the other, the otherhormones in the endocrine
system.
So that's one thing that I don'tthink a lot of people are aware
of.
And As we've discussed in otherepisodes, hormones are
messengers and so alcohol canchange how these chemical
messengers are made and howthey, um, communicate with each
(16:55):
other and that could be likeneurotransmitters.
it can be just, you know, thehormones, estrogen,
testosterone, um, progesteronethat we think of.
it's affecting the communicationon how our cells talk to each
other.
Tina (17:07):
Mm hmm.
Yeah, and I think another thingthat alcohol does, which is just
logical, and I don't know howmuch research has been done in
this so far, it affects thebiomes of the body.
I mean, most bacteria can't livein alcohol.
And so when you take alcoholdown, whether you're affecting
your mouth or anywhere alongyour GI tract, your small
intestine, your large intestine,you're probably affecting your
(17:30):
microbiome in ways that we'rejust beginning to understand and
we know That that microbiome hasa lot to do with our overall
health and our immune system Andso there's the direct effects.
I would call that an indirecteffect because it probably
Adversely affects thepopulations there.
That would be my guess Becauseit's not really considered a
healthy thing to be consumingalcohol.
Leah (17:50):
and, you know, in the research that I did for this,
for this episode that nobodymentioned microbiome.
And so I, I think.
I think that's a great thing tolook at and it is something that
we tend to mention at least onceevery couple of episodes.
So, Yeah.
it's, that's a, I mean, that's areally interesting, cause I
mean, I, I saw the, you know,about it causing nutrient
(18:12):
deficiencies and it being emptycalories, but yeah, nothing said
directly, you're kind of asolvent.
Tina (18:19):
yeah You're drinking something bacterial can't live
in so that can't be good You'redefinitely monkeying with your
microbiota in unknown ways.
Leah (18:30):
yeah, yeah.
So, I mean, do with theinformation as, as you, as you
wish.
I think just kind of lettingmore people know when I was
reading an article, it said thatless than half of Americans knew
that alcohol was carcinogenic.
Tina (18:45):
I saw that
Leah (18:46):
So I guess not enough people listen to our episode.
So maybe they'll listen to thisone, but, um, yeah.
And you know, there are optionsmore and more options I'm
seeing, at least in Portlandarea, um, that if you go to a
bar restaurant, there aremocktails there.
(19:06):
We did, I think it was fouryears ago, we did a post on,
different mock tales and, Non orlow alcohol products.
So we'll put a link to that inthe show notes and maybe I'll
add onto it.
I'm not going to promiseanything cause
Tina (19:24):
So, so here's a, here's a legitimate question.
What about cultures who drinkevery day?
Like I'm thinking of Italy, goto Italy, people have a glass of
wine with lunch and then they goback to work.
I mean, it's just part of whatyou do.
Leah (19:38):
I mean, this is worldwide.
Obviously this is something thatis occurring worldwide.
I think, there are, I don'tthink I have my notes in front
of me.
741, 300 cancer cases worldwidecan be attributed to, Alcohol.
And that's from 2020.
So this is a worldwide problem.
I don't know.
(19:59):
And I did not look up specificthings with other countries.
the wines in Italy and I couldbe wrong, but but it was my
impression that they are lowerin alcohol.
Tina (20:11):
Oh yeah.
Leah (20:12):
yeah.
And like the ones that, thatthere are certain ones that
people would drink, like duringthe daytime, the more social
wines.
And it was my understanding.
Those are lower in alcohol.
I don't know specifically ifthat is true.
you know, like you said, likeit's other factors that, you
know, in, involved.
So, and, and it's hard to saybecause in Europe people smoke a
lot.
So you've got people smoking anddrinking alcohol.
(20:33):
I have no, I have no idea howthey do that.
It's kind of like the Frenchparadox, right?
Tina (20:38):
Right.
Leah (20:39):
Throw in some fatty foods.
And I mean, is it because of thediet that they eat?
I don't know because Americandiet versus, you know, uh,
Italian diet.
We eat far more ultra processedfoods.
Um,
Tina (20:53):
Yeah.
I couldn't believe the statsaround that.
I recently saw 60 percent ofpeople's calories or something
was ultra processed food.
Leah (21:01):
yeah.
And we'll go, we'll, we're goingto talk about that in another
episode and we're going to talkabout the difference between
processed food and ultraprocessed food.
But yeah, so I don't, you know,all of these other factors, is
it, do they have less stress intheir life?
Do they
Tina (21:14):
Right.
Leah (21:15):
mechanisms?
Like my,
Tina (21:16):
Well, it is, their entire food system is different though.
So I personally think, let's sayyou're eating all Italian diet
here in the United States,sourcing everything from your
local grocer here in the U.
S., it doesn't seem as healthyas Italy because of our mass
production of everything.
Because we pick the tomato whenit's green and then we throw
some chemical on it to make itred just before it's at the
(21:39):
shelves.
We put it in a gigantic youknow, 18 Wheeler, ship it across
the country.
It's just so different.
Like our food systems don'tserve us.
I mean, unless you have localgrowers and you can constantly
go to the market.
I mean, it's, it's hard here tomimic exactly the, the, the diet
they have there.
Even the oils.
Like I was in Italy last spring,every restaurant we went to had
(22:02):
its own olive oil from their ownlittle small olive grower down
the road, and we were not goingto fancy restaurants.
These were just regularrestaurants, some of them very
touristy, but it was just adifferent way of obtaining your
food.
And here, we just haveagribusiness, and I think that
(22:22):
that's a huge problem.
Leah (22:24):
Do they, and now we're going into like more like
tourism conversations, but it'smy dream to go to Italy.
Do they kind of linger overtheir meals?
Like in Spain, like in Spain, Iremember, it's not like,
Standing over the stove andshoveling food in your mouth or
quickly eating at the table andthen clearing the plates like
it's seems like it's a much morerelaxed, almost like type of
(22:45):
thing.
Tina (22:46):
I would agree.
I think the food is almostincidental to the convivial
company you're keeping duringthe meal.
So, the food happens, but thebulk of what's happening is the
interaction of the people at thetable.
And, of course, you're doing itover food, but Yes, it's a very
different experience where theconviviality and the food seem
to be on par rather than I'msitting down to eat, they're
(23:08):
sitting down to visit andthey're eating while they visit.
Leah (23:13):
Well, yeah.
And again, this, this is aworldwide concern.
And so I don't know thespecifics on, um, the statistics
from other, other countries.
So, I mean, it is somethinginteresting for us to look into.
Tina (23:26):
I do know that the Mediterranean diet does lead to
greater longevity in general,whether we're talking about
Greece or Spain or Italy so wedo know that eating a lot of
plant foods, maybe that somehownegates some of the alcohol
carcinogenesis too, becausewe're talking about oxidative
damage.
Leah (23:41):
Right.
Colorful foods.
Right.
And then also you were talkingabout, you know, it's, it's very
social.
There's like a sense ofcommunity, which I think we're
really lacking in the U.
S.
And so, I mean, who knows, we'reat this point, we're just, we're
spitballing.
But I think these are things toconsider.
Tina (23:59):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, it's, it's clear thatsome of our habits here in
America are not good for ourhealth and, uh, isolation.
Leah (24:07):
alcohol.
They're just not.
Tina (24:08):
isolation is definitely high on that list.
Leah (24:10):
Yeah.
So, yeah, typically we talkabout things that you can do to
decrease your risk and
Tina (24:17):
Can I highly recommend the mocktails?
The recipes you put on the blogthat you already mentioned.
Leah (24:22):
Yes.
Tina (24:22):
I highly recommend trying to make some mocktails at home
if a cocktail is your thing.
I think kombucha in a glass, puta wine glass, but you pour your
kombucha in there.
I think that's a nice way to,like, feel like you're doing
something that's alcoholic, butyou're not.
Yeah.
Leah (24:35):
that is and I actually drink kombucha from we have
these like glasses that looklike cans.
They're kind of can shape oftheir glasses.
And that's how I drink mykombucha.
Tina (24:43):
yeah,
Leah (24:44):
And we're sometimes I drink it out of a highball
class.
Tina (24:47):
yeah,
Leah (24:48):
And I'm not saying I don't drink alcohol.
I do drink alcohol.
I try to limit it.
Like if I go out, you know, onedrink, not perfect.
Um, but, um, And I don't go outa lot.
And I think that's when I goout, if I go out, but, um, yeah.
And I do have a habit of, if Igo out, I tend to, if they have
(25:10):
fries, I'll have fries andthat's probably a really bad
thing to have, you know, that's,that's not really as good as a,
as I think it is.
So, yeah, just being mindful ofrisk factors in your life.
I think that's kind of whatyou're
Tina (25:25):
And we didn't really mention this, but there is a
linear relationship.
So it's If one drink is bad, twodrinks is worse, three drinks is
worse, four drinks is worse, asfar as risk goes.
So we know that people who drinkheavily have a much, much higher
risk, you know, four drinks aday or more.
And, and that goes on occasiontoo.
Like you shouldn't really overdrink to the point of getting
(25:48):
drunk or buzzed.
that's when you know that it'stoxic to your brain as well, for
sure, because that's why it isintoxication, toxic, So it's
toxic to your brain at thatmoment.
It's easy to remember.
I didn't make that up.
Some smart neurologist in theintegrative space said it and I
was like, Oh, that's a reallygood point.
Um, so yeah, so if you're goingto drink, don't over drink.
(26:14):
because I think you've passedthe point of any benefit if
there is any, whether it's foryour heart or your brain or
anything else.
Leah (26:19):
I think that's good advice.
Tina (26:22):
I like to do some absolute.
Leah (26:23):
It's not even in moderation.
It's less than moderation.
It's, you know, disperse youralcohol with a club soda.
Like, I think having that samefeel.
And that was the thing when Iwas making mocktails.
Disperse?
You know what I'm trying to say.
But, you know, like interintermix.
And so if you have somethingthat also has bubbles, like a
(26:44):
kombucha or like a club sodawith lime or twist or, you know,
a splash of juice or somethinglike that's that mouthfeel.
And that's what's really hard toreplicate with, um, with
mocktails.
But, um, yeah, putting a littlecitrus in there, putting a
little bubble.
Tina (27:00):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
I, I totally agree.
Or just using some bitters withthe bubbly water.
Makes you think you have acocktail because there's kind of
that, another flavor and there'sall sorts of bitters out there
now, not just Angostura, butthere's all sorts of nice
bitters available in the liquorstores or grocery stores,
depending what state you're in.
Leah (27:18):
Or the Portland Airport PDX, they've got, they've got
the place that sells whiskey andthey've got a bunch of different
bitters there.
And yeah, I mean, if you're, youknow, having that small amount,
I mean, there's, it's a very,very small amount of alcohol
that would be in bitters
Tina (27:32):
Yeah.
I don't think there's much inthere.
It's almost like a tincture.
you only use drops.
Yeah, Yeah, So, unlike atincture, which I dose in
teaspoons for some people.
I mean, bitters is less thanthat.
Leah (27:44):
Yeah.
I wonder how much alcohol's in aserving of NyQuil.
Okay, those are questions thatwe're going to answer at some
other time.
Because I think this is it.
I think we've covered it.
I think, this is a good recap ofepisode four for those who did
not listen to us at that time.
Tina (28:00):
It's still online.
It's still in your podcastplayer.
Leah (28:04):
Yeah, so, so see how we were getting around.
I was really afraid.
That episode really, I rememberstarting off and being really
afraid that it was just going tolike piss people off.
But, you know, now
Tina (28:14):
I know.
Leah (28:14):
the Surgeon General behind
Tina (28:16):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Don't blame the messenger.
We didn't make the data.
We both have cocktails onoccasion, too.
So, like you said, there'snothing wrong with that.
It's
Leah (28:25):
We all have one.
Together.
Tina (28:27):
together on occasion.
It's okay.
We're, we're mindful of the riskwe're taking at that moment.
Cause that's what you get to doas an adult.
Leah (28:35):
so on that note, I'm Dr.
Leah Sherman,
Tina (28:37):
Kazer.
Leah (28:39):
and this is The Cancer Pod.
Tina (28:40):
Until next time.
Leah (28:41):
Thanks for listening to the cancer pod.
Remember to subscribe, reviewand rate us wherever you get
your podcasts.
Follow us on social media forupdates, and as always, this is
not medical advice.
These are our opinions.
Talk to your doctor, but forchanging anything related to
your treatment plan.
The cancer pod is hosted by me,Dr.
(29:01):
Leah Sherman.
And by Dr.
Tina Kaczor music is by KevinSee you next time.
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