September 18, 2024 • 43 mins
The news cycle is buzzing with how Elle MacPherson refused conventional treatment and cured herself of breast cancer naturally. While the media spins and influencers speculate, Tina and Leah talk about what they gleaned from a recent interview with Elle MacPherson on 60 Minutes Australia. They delve into the controversies surrounding natural versus conventional cancer treatments, including her decisions for self-care. The doctors also discuss the specifics of her diagnosis and the standard of care for her stage and type of cancer. There are many lessons from her story, so tune in for insights and opinions from two naturopathic docs who put Elle's story into perspective.
Prognostic and Predictive Value of Her2 status in DCIS
Understanding different types of DCIS
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leah (00:00):
And she says in her interview, you know, if it's a
(00:02):
choice between losing my breastor losing my life, losing her
breast was her, you know, and itwas her option, but then she
chose for whatever reasons to goa more holistic route route
route.
She chose to go, she chose to goa more holistic route.
(00:22):
Root?
Route?
I don't know what the root is!
Tina (00:25):
It could be either.
Leah (00:26):
Okay, either!
Tina (00:27):
Either.
Leah (01:17):
Hey, Tina.
Tina (01:18):
Hey, Leah, how you doing?
Leah (01:20):
I'm doing well.
Did you watch that video I sentyou?
Tina (01:22):
I did.
I actually did my homework thistime.
Leah (01:26):
Awesome.
Tina (01:27):
We both know that's not a given.
Leah (01:29):
No, that's not.
Um, did you know who ElleMacpherson was before you
watched the video?
Tina (01:37):
No.
Leah (01:38):
Okay.
I didn't think so.
Tina (01:40):
Her name is vaguely familiar, but if you said, who's
Elle McPherson, I probably wouldhave meant, I don't know, an
actress.
Leah (01:46):
Yeah.
Now I know that you're not like,you know, you're, you don't have
the finger on the pulse ofcultural, whatever the word is.
I don't know.
Tina (01:54):
Yeah.
I went to a trivia night andpeople expected me to know
things and I was like, this isall pop culture.
I know nothing.
I mean.
Leah (02:02):
Yeah,
Tina (02:03):
yeah.
Leah (02:03):
so I was very familiar with who Elle Macpherson is
because I Know about models andsupermodels and all that stuff.
Anyways, so to our listeners weare talking about the 60 Minutes
Australia video That is onYouTube Where Elle Macpherson is
interviewed about her book thatshe is coming out with that is
(02:26):
going to be released in the USin November of 2024 And there is
a portion of the interview whereshe talks about her breast
cancer diagnosis in 2017.
Tina (02:39):
Yeah, I have seen rumblings on social media about
this, and so it is being talkedabout a lot.
And, um, the reason I haven'treally paid much attention to
those conversations, and I washappy to watch the 60 Minutes
video, it's like everything wedo, it's kind of going back to
the source.
So I was glad you sent me thatvideo because I want to know
(02:59):
what she has to say.
not what other people areinterpreting her as having have
said.
Leah (03:03):
Well, exactly.
And I looked into the videobecause of everything I had seen
on social media.
And then I started seeingheadlines where, these different
media outlets were declaringthat Elle Macpherson refused
chemotherapy, cured herselfnaturally of breast cancer.
And so when I learned of thisvideo on YouTube, I was like,
(03:27):
like you said, we don't haveaccess to the book to read it.
So that was the next best thing,um, was to listen.
And what's interesting about theinterview is it's not all about
her cancer diagnosis.
She talks about her history ofalcoholism, and other things.
And so The breast cancer part ofher book.
It's one chapter as is I'm surethe alcoholism and other issues,
(03:49):
you know Relationships orwhatever she talks about she
talks about her insecurities andmodeling I mean, it's just the
interview just doesn't focusonly on the cancer part, but
that's the part that I wantedyou to see
Tina (04:00):
Yeah, I found it really interesting, and, I know,
because I've been doing naturalmedicine for 25 years, that what
happens in headlines, eventhrough media, before social
media, regular media, the spinzone, you know, things get spun
out of control and just forreadership and more eyeballs on
there.
Whatever they're writing orblogging or publishing.
(04:22):
So, I kind of knew that it wasprobably going to be different
from her mouth than it is fromthe scuttlebutt that I see
online.
Leah (04:28):
right, and I I mean I understand when cancer patients
and survivors are saying this isirresponsible, you know,
promoting natural medicine,alternative medicine, I should
say, you know, instead of doingconventional treatment, you
know, pushing that.
I mean, yeah, I, I get all ofthat.
(04:49):
Um, watching the interview, wasshe pushing it?
It didn't seem like she waspushing it.
She said it was her choice.
I do know there are people outthere who will say, well, if L.
McPherson can do it, then I cando it.
but.
maybe we should start at thebeginning so Let's let's let's
rewind and we'll do a little bitof history of what we gathered
from the interview,
Tina (05:11):
So, her diagnosis.
What was her diagnosis exactly?
Leah (05:14):
right?
So her diagnosis according tothe interview was a"Her2
positive estrogen receptiveintraductal carcinoma with
positive margins."
Tina (05:27):
Mm hmm.
Leah (05:28):
So, in the United States, we would say HER2 positive, ER
positive, you know, estrogenreceptor positive, um, DCIS,
ductal carcinoma in situ.
Stage zero is what they call itin terms of, the staging of,
breast cancer.
There is a standard of care thatpatients in the U.
(05:49):
S.
would receive, and that isaccording to the National
Comprehensive Cancer Network,NCCN.
From what I gathered from theinterview, it's the same in
Australia?
Tina (06:00):
Yeah, I think the conventional recommendation
sounded exactly the same, whichis surgery.
With large enough margins or ifthe margins are small, they're
still clear, but they're smallerthan a certain amount, then it's
lumpectomy plus radiation.
And, and hormone blockade ifit's estrogen receptor positive.
Leah (06:20):
Right, and then sometimes a mastectomy is recommended, or
a patient chooses to have amastectomy to reduce the risk of
a recurrence on the same side.
Tina (06:31):
Yeah, and I don't have any patients in my recollection that
have ever been offered orrecommended chemotherapy for
DCIS.
Leah (06:40):
No, no, um, I'm looking at the NCCN guidelines right now
and that is not in there.
It is, uh, let's see, I'mlooking.
You look for the tumor estrogenreceptor status.
Typically HER2 is not somethingthat is looked at.
Tina (07:00):
Not in DCIS.
Leah (07:02):
Not in DCIS, correct.
Tina (07:03):
Here in the States.
Leah (07:05):
Breast conserving surgery without lymph node surgery or
total mastectomy with sentinellymph node biopsy and
reconstruction would beoptional, plus or minus
reconstruction.
With the breast conservingsurgery, which is a lumpectomy,
then you have the option ofeither whole breast radiation,
(07:26):
accelerated partial breastradiation, or no radiation.
Tina (07:31):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Leah (07:32):
And then post treatment, you would be offered tamoxifen
or an aromatase inhibitor if youare post menopausal.
Tina (07:41):
Exactly.
Yeah.
And so in the interview, shementioned that she was offered
or recommended aggressivetherapy, including chemotherapy,
radiation and hormone blockade.
That would be unusual here inthe States.
I do think she's being honest.
Now, I don't think there's anyduplicitous nature in anything
(08:01):
that she's doing with the bookor the interviews or anything
like that.
When people are saying, Oh,she's lying and blah, blah,
blah, and people get all uppity.
Um, I think she heard what sheheard and somehow along the way
she thought chemotherapy wasgoing to be something that Maybe
some facilities recommend forher.
I don't doubt her.
I think she heard exactly whatshe heard in my experience.
(08:23):
Sometimes people hear thingsthat are a not a hundred percent
correct.
So I've seen thousands andthousands of patients, and there
are times that people hearsomething and they know they
heard what they heard, but it'sjust a little off from what was
said.
So.
I don't know what, I mean, wecan speculate that maybe someone
said, well, if we find thatthere is invasive ductal
carcinoma, blah, blah, blah.
(08:44):
Like, I don't know.
Leah (08:45):
That's what, that's what I was thinking.
I was thinking that if they diddiscuss one of your options, and
I think she sought treatment inthe U.
S.
that's the impression I got fromthe interview.
But if somebody said.
you can choose a mastectomy.
We will do a Sentinel lymph nodebiopsy at that time.
If there is cancer in that lymphnode, then chemotherapy, that
(09:05):
could have been the conversationthat I could totally see.
I mean, we've both hadconversations with patients.
You know, I used to see themimmediately after they would get
their treatment plan from thedoctor and the nurse.
You know, they would talk tothem about the treatment plan.
Then they'd come to me and theywould.
They, you know, they hadadditional questions.
And so, you know, we've hadpatients where it's like, we've
(09:27):
had to clarify.
That's not, you know, that's notwhat the plan was.
Tina (09:31):
Yeah.
It's totally understandable.
Mm
Leah (09:34):
yeah, your brain isn't, you're not present.
I mean, it is, it's like you'regiven this diagnosis, you're
given this treatment plan.
It's a lot of information.
You don't have a medicalbackground.
Um, you're taking notes or maybeyou're not taking notes.
Maybe you're recording it.
Maybe you're not, you know, so.
We don't know what she wasactually told, but that's her
recollection of what she wastold.
Tina (09:55):
Exactly.
There's two possibilities too.
I mean, one, she walked awaywith that and misheard it in a
way that it wasn't actually arecommendation, at least not at
that point for DCIS.
Or, and this is a horrible idea,chemotherapy is really a cash
cow.
And so if she went somewherethat was completely unscrupulous
or somehow You know, not legitin that sense, chemotherapy has
(10:18):
been given to patients that waslike a marginal, benefit.
I've had that happen to patientsin the past where chemotherapy
was given.
I thought to myself, wow,that's, it seemed like an
overtreatment for some people.
Leah (10:31):
Oh, absolutely.
We, you know, working at CancerTreatment Centers of America, we
saw patients that were comingfor second opinions and
definitely saw patients who werediagnosed with breast cancer
came to us because thechemotherapy was too much for
them.
And they thought they, theywould get alternative medicine
at CTCA, which they did not, butthen learned from the
(10:53):
oncologist.
Well, for your type of breastcancer, at your stage, chemo
really isn't indicated.
But I have a feeling she wentto, like, I mean, She was a
supermodel.
She has access to the besthealth care.
Tina (11:08):
like a superpowers.
She's got superpowers to go
Leah (11:11):
No, she's a supermodel.
She's not, you know, going tosome, you know, off the grid
cancer center.
And so when I, I looked at Mayo,City of Hope, MD Anderson, those
are the kind of the big guns.
I mean, there are other cancercenters, you know, in the
Phoenix area, but, and I justassumed that she went to Arizona
for her treatment discussions.
(11:31):
But, you know, they all, allthose websites.
State that what we just said forstandard of care for DCIS, it's
on the website.
So anyways, we don't know whoshe talked to.
We don't know what cancer centershe went to.
we have doing a lot ofdisclaimers here.
Tina (11:48):
Well, yeah, because we're speculating a little bit, but
the whole idea here is this is agood opportunity to talk about,
you know, there's a time and aplace for natural medicine and
conventional medicine and can Isay something in this interview?
I have a little pet peeve, andthat is when conventional
medicine, orthodox medicine,allopathic medicine, those are
all synonyms.
(12:09):
What it is not.
And it should never be called istraditional medicine.
So people can refer, and theinterviewer did this, she
referred to conventionalmedicine as traditional
medicine.
Leah (12:18):
Oh, I didn't catch that.
Tina (12:20):
Mmm, I only catch it because I'm like, it rubs me the
wrong way.
Um, it's not traditional,
Leah (12:25):
Well, I, cause when I think of traditional medicine, I
think of indigenous medicine,
Tina (12:29):
Traditional medicine is herbal medicine and all, you
know, a shaman might practicetraditional medicine, so just
saying, saying that, because youknow, from a language
perspective, I'd like to beconsistent and traditional
means, more ethno botanicalmedicine, maybe Chinese medicine
or whatever.
So I just wanna put that outthere.
'cause I, you said conventional,which I agree with.
(12:50):
I think conventional is the termthat everyone can understand,
but,
Leah (12:52):
That's, that's what I typically use.
I don't, yeah, I don't think ofit as traditional.
Um, I want to rewind a littlebit and I want us to talk about
the HER2 positive receptor ingeneral, and then also in
connection with the DCIS.
Tina (13:09):
so, well you did a little bit of research on this.
I'll let you talk about it.
Leah (13:13):
So, HER2 is a receptor.
It is the human epidermal growthfactor receptor 2, and it's a
protein that promotes the growthof cancer cells.
It's checked in breast cancer,when it's invasive.
It's one of the receptors theycheck, they check the estrogen
and progesterone receptors andthey check the HER2 receptor.
(13:37):
Um, but it's also found on othercancers.
The status is also found withother cancers.
which we're not going to talkabout because that's not the
topic.
So it is a receptor that can betargeted with certain
medications.
Herceptin and Projeta are theones that we think of the most.
(13:57):
and it's not typically tested orchecked in DCIS.
Tina (14:03):
So let's talk about why it's tested normally.
So an invasive ductal carcinoma.
So DCIS is not invasive.
Ductal carcinoma.
Ductal carcinoma in situ is thatintraductal breast cancer, what
they referred to as intraductalin the interview.
I looked it up quickly just tosee, I was like, why did they do
HER2 status on DCIS?
(14:26):
Assuming everything they'resaying is accurate.
It's unusual to do because it'snot prognostic in DCIS as it is
with invasive ductal carcinoma.
So in DCIS, it's positive moreoften.
It's around 40 percent of thetime it's positive, but it has
no bearing on.
The treatment, normal DCIStreatment, doesn't depend on
(14:49):
HER2 status at all.
When we look at invasive ductalcarcinoma, it's positive 15,
maybe 20 percent of the time.
Maybe more than that now,there's a little bit more
sensitive testing going on.
Um, in any case, yes, I did alittle reconnaissance just
looking at that, because Ithought that was kind of unusual
to have the HER2 status forDCIS.
Leah (15:10):
I do remember a particular patient where their HER2 status
was checked at the prior cancercenter.
And I remember talking with theoncologist and I was like, what,
what about the HER2 status?
where does trastuzumab, youknow, Herceptin come into play?
And he said, no, we don't,that's not something with that
we look at.
So I'm sure that they're stilllooking at it.
(15:31):
They're still doing tests.
You know, there's still researcharound it about what, you know,
the significance is, but it'slike you said, it's more
prevalent In carcinoma in situthan it is in.
invasive, uh, cancer.
Tina (15:44):
I'll put a link to that study.
It's called Prognostic andPredictive Value of Her2
Expression in Ductal Carcinomain Situ.
So I'll put a link to that sopeople can go back and look at
it if they're interested.
Leah (15:54):
yeah, and it, in invasive cancers, it is, I mean, in
general, it is a sign of a moreaggressive cancer.
Tina (16:02):
Right.
For invasive ductal carcinomas.
Leah (16:04):
Yeah.
So, but they're not quite surewhat it means, as you said, you
know, in, DCIS.
So, so that was kind of a, likea, I don't know what you call
it.
It like, threw a little, awrench in the whole story.
It's like, cause like, why wasit, why was it checked?
You know, it,
Tina (16:21):
Yeah.
Because she used the wordaggressive.
They told her that her DCIS wasaggressive.
And normally that's is not likethe invasive form of breast
cancer.
The aggressiveness depends onthe architectural pattern of the
tissue, the, what we call thehistology and on the nuclear
grade, like how many cells aredividing.
(16:41):
And so there is, there is ascale, right?
Papillary, solid, cribiform.
There's a scale ofaggressiveness for DCIS.
So I don't doubt that either.
She was told, you know, you havea crib of form or you have a
highly aggressive architecturalpattern to the tissue.
I don't doubt that because youcan use the word aggressive and
DCIS in the same sentence.
(17:02):
That's a truism.
It just doesn't mean the samething as invasive ductal
carcinoma once it leaves theducts because when you say
aggressive then, it has moreprognostic consequences, right?
So it really means that this ismore likely to go somewhere else
in your body because it'salready left the duct itself,
the actual mammary gland duct.
(17:25):
All right.
I just want to clarify that
Leah (17:27):
Okay.
So that's kind of, thebackground on the pieces.
You know, the pieces that wewere able to glean from the
interview.
Um, neither of us have treatedher.
We don't know her.
Tina (17:38):
and just so we're clear on that's all the diagnosis
clarifications and ourunderstanding of what's going
on.
And for her treatment, just sowe're crystal clear, she had
what she called a lumpectomywith positive margins and then a
second lumpectomy that also hadpositive margins and that's it
for conventional medicine.
That's where she stopped withthe conventional and then she
went on.
Leah (17:56):
What I'm thinking is with that second surgery, if that's
not when the mastectomy wasdiscussed.
Tina (18:03):
Mm hmm.
Leah (18:04):
And she says in her interview, you know, if it's a
choice between losing my breastor losing my life, losing her
breast was her, you know, and itwas her option, but then she
chose for whatever reasons to goa more holistic route route
route.
She chose to go, she chose to goa more holistic route.
(18:26):
Root?
Route?
I don't know what the root is!
Tina (18:29):
It could be either.
Leah (18:30):
Okay, either!
Tina (18:31):
Either.
Leah (18:35):
Um, And that's kind of where, like, we know very little
about what she did.
She does talk a little bit, ingeneral that she, I have notes,
she saw two doctors, twoholistic doctors in the Phoenix
area.
Tina (18:49):
Well, just to be clear, she saw 32 different doctors
settled on those two.
Yeah.
Leah (18:57):
doctors.
She underwent eight months ofwhat she described as intense
therapy, um, a natural, verycomplex protocol.
She received, naturalmedications as IVs.
she saw a holistic dentist, Ibelieve.
She saw osteopaths,chiropractors, and she did a lot
(19:18):
of spiritual work.
Does she claim she was cured?
In the interview, she says, thatshe was"healed through her
breast cancer." she didn't claimthat she was cured.
She talks about how she'sconsidered in remission.
Tina (19:39):
and this is where, you know, she gained a lot of
validity in my mind.
And I was like, she's not reallytrying to tell anyone anything,
except her own experience.
I get it.
She has the means financiallyand time wise to do whatever she
damn well pleases.
So my thought is, yeah, okay.
(19:59):
I know what she's saying.
She got an intense IV.
She could have gotten all sortsof things that are being used as
anti cancer treatments that arenatural.
Natural derivatives.
They do IV curcumin,artemisinin.
you can do off label drugs aswell.
And I know that's not natural.
You can go on specialty dietsand you have the means of
somebody to help you throughthat, whether you're paying for
(20:20):
people to do it or paying forpeople to cook it for you, it
doesn't matter.
But I do think that if moneywere no object, I've actually
had this Y in the road ofdecision making with patients
when, to be perfectly honest,Because of their financial
situation, they had to dosomething more conventional
rather than more natural.
Leah (20:39):
Well, what I want to point out in terms of the treatment
that Elle MacPherson didreceive, the conventional
treatment, surgery was it.
Surgery was her treatment.
Tina (20:50):
Mm-Hmm.
Leah (20:50):
And as I read with the NCCN guidelines, radiation,
whole breast, partial breastradiation or no radiation.
So the treatments that shedeclined were kind of the add
ons, right?
I mean, it's like the surgery isthe treatment and she did have a
positive margin, whichpersonally, I had a very close
(21:12):
margin after my mastectomy, myskin sparing mastectomy, I
suppose they could have takeneverything.
but they didn't, they, theyleft.
You know, the, the skin, I don'tknow what else to say.
They left the skin on the skinsparing mastectomy.
And my radiation oncologistspoke with her people at
(21:33):
Memorial Sloan Kettering, andthey all agreed I didn't need
radiation.
So, but as different, mine wasinvasive ductile, so it's
completely different.
But what I'm saying is thatpositive margin would have
indicated that.
conventionally, she probablyneeded additional treatments,
you know,
Tina (21:53):
radiation.
Leah (21:54):
radiation or the mastectomy.
Tina (21:56):
Mm-Hmm.
Mm-Hmm.
Leah (21:57):
So anyways, I do want to say that, that, that was a huge
part of her treatment.
You know, it's like, it's notlike she for went for went, why
can I not speak this morning?
Um, she, she didn't foregoconventional treatment.
She received conventionaltreatment.
So we have to really emphasizethat.
Tina (22:15):
Right.
You know, that's an importantpoint because that happens a lot
in our world of straddlingnatural and conventional
medicine.
a lot of proponents out there,and I will not name names, but
make entire empires based on,you know, having, been on the
right side of the coin when youtoss a 50 50 chance of
recurrence after surgery withoutdoing chemo, or radiation or
(22:39):
whatever, whatever theadjunctive therapy is.
And they're on the right side ofthe coin, and they live to tell
about it, and then they createan entire, business around that
about natural medicine, but theyhad surgery.
Leah (22:49):
Yeah, they had surgery and then they claim it was the
natural therapy that theyadopted afterwards that cured
them instead of saying, Hey,well, I did have surgery and
that was the main treatmentrecommendation.
Tina (23:01):
Now the, the beauty of those stats is I look at
whatever those stats are.
Okay.
So let's, let's talk about this.
So you have reducing the risk ofrecurrence.
So we have stats on chemo andradiation.
Like your risk would be, I don'tknow, 30 percent if you don't do
the radiation, it'll be 20percent if you do the radiation.
We know these numbers, likethese are actually flushed out
(23:22):
pretty well.
In this interview, they, Italked to a medical oncologist,
not on camera, off camera, andreported that the oncologist
said right now, L.
McPherson has a 20 percentchance of recurrence.
Now I get it.
She's like, let's see, two outof 10 is my chance.
If I don't do any of thatradiation or what's radiation
(23:43):
going to do, bring it down toone out of 10.
Like you can really look at thestats and be mindful of the fact
that sometimes The benefit nyour mind, and for you, and for
your particular trajectory inlife, isn't worth it.
So I'm saying that because it'sone of those things that I get
it in some ways.
If it's a 20 percent chance now,you know, two out of 10, it
(24:07):
means that it would have reducedit down below that.
Let's say cut it in half.
It's one out of 10.
if that status correct,
Leah (24:13):
And I worked with a doctor who had a history of breast
cancer, had recurrences while Iwas working with her, had a
recurrence.
And I think they were talking toher about.
The certain treatment, you know,it's a 30 percent chance of
recurrence unless you do this.
And she was like, I look at itas a 70 percent chance of not
(24:35):
having a recurrence.
You know, it's kind of, how doyou look at it?
Is she looking at it as, well,it's an 80 percent chance of me
not getting it.
I mean, it's, you know,
Tina (24:44):
that's exactly it.
Leah (24:45):
20 percent is huge, but 20 percent is huge, but it's like,
how are you?
Yeah.
How are you?
What's your perspective of it?
So anyways, that, that's my, my,that's my little story.
Tina (24:54):
Well, and I always look at that as the worst case scenario.
So if the, if you were giventhat number 20 percent chance,
those are people who do nothing.
So now you say, okay.
I have the time and the means togo do natural therapies where I
will work on my body.
I will look at my risk factors.
I will remove them.
If I'm overweight, I will losethe weight.
If I'm drinking too muchalcohol, I'll stop doing that.
(25:16):
If I'm smoking, I'll stop doingthat.
If I can't sleep, I'll, youknow, so, so you are probably
ticking away at that 20 percentas you remove any risk factors
that you had when you got yourdiagnosis.
We don't have So I look atwhatever it is without
adjunctive treatment as theworst case scenario without
natural medicine.
And then anything you do tobetter yourself and get yourself
(25:37):
in better health, you'reprobably ticking away at that
percentage.
We just don't know how much.
Leah (25:40):
And again, both of us have seen patients who refused any
conventional medicine, at all,and they just wanted to do
alternative medicine.
And again, working at CTCA, Isaw a lot of patients who came
(26:01):
to us with advanced cancersafter they had declined.
Maybe some of them hadlumpectomies, and then declined.
further treatment.
Tina (26:10):
hmm.
Leah (26:11):
Others had invasive ductal carcinoma and opted for
alternative natural treatmentsand they came back with stage
four cancer that's not curable.
Tina (26:22):
Yeah.
This is where we're all aproduct of our own experiences,
right?
So if they did well, you're notgoing to hear from them.
If they recur or have ametastasis, you're going to see
them as a clinician.
So you're you're going to leanmore towards more treatment in
the first, you know, thatfrontline diagnosis because you
don't want them to recur andyou're like, well, do everything
you possibly can.
So this doesn't happen.
(26:44):
But the people who.
Don't do it.
Do refuse it.
Most of them are not ElleMacPherson writing a book.
And so we don't know about them.
Leah (26:51):
And, and most of them don't have the means, not to say
that if you have money, thenchoose alternative medicine.
I'm not saying that at all, but
Tina (27:00):
I'm saying alternative medicine is not even an option,
or complete natural medicine inthis particular scenario with
positive margins, which is ahigher risk of recurrence.
It's less an option.
Then it would be if you have themeans to do what she did, which
is an eight month complexintensive program.
it's just not an option for alot of folks.
And I'm not saying people can'tdo it.
They can do whatever they want.
(27:21):
I'm a firm believer in knowingthe data and choosing your path.
Um, I actually think all thisdata should be more, more
available.
At the ready and maybe with AI,it will be people can just ask
and find this information now.
but generally speaking, peoplehave been misinformed a lot of
the times.
In my experience, people havebeen given data about relative
risk rather than absolute risk.
(27:43):
That's a whole notherdiscussion.
But if someone looks up thedifference between the two, you
can see how relative risk can bevery misleading as to how much
benefit you get from something.
Absolute risk is really the onlything we should be thinking
about and talking about, becausethat's how our brains work, you
know.
How many out of a hundred,right?
Not relative risk, which is awhole different ballgame, which
is often what people are given.
Leah (28:03):
changing subjects slightly.
Did you, Dive into trying tofind out what she did.
Okay, I did.
Oh, I, I mean, I didn't go intothe dark web, but I was like, I
was putting in every wordcombination to see what exactly
it was that she did.
(28:24):
Um, she did kind of talk about,in terms of like, like some of
the spiritual mind body workthat she did.
I really admire her for thatbecause she says that she
doesn't worry about recurrence.
She doesn't think about it andthat the fear itself is, you
know, not a good thing.
as a naturopathic doctor with ahistory of breast cancer, I wish
(28:45):
I could say the same for myself,
Tina (28:46):
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Leah (28:49):
you know, so that, you know, And we have spoken with
People recently, you know, we'vehad professionals come on,
experts in the mind body fieldwho talk about the importance of
that as being, part of yourintegrative care.
Tina (29:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's really deep work.
I mean, it's really deep workand it, it's, It's hard because
it's not as structured as therest of it, right?
You can go find a trainer, youcan go find a gym, you can look
up online, you know, how to, howto make more muscle mass in your
body and lower your risk by,lowering inflammation or what to
eat.
But finding spiritual guidanceand doing real Deep work, is so
(29:29):
individualized, so personal andis so loaded in some ways.
you know, if you don't go to thewrong person, I think there's
potential for damage too.
So, to your point, I'm glad thatwe've talked to some folks in
that arena that are trueprofessionals, so that people
can maybe look back at the olderepisodes and go from there for
some guidance.
But, um, Yeah, I think it'sfraught with some dangers if
(29:49):
it's not done right.
Leah (29:50):
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
Tina (29:53):
Yeah.
Leah (29:53):
Um, the other thing I learned, there was different
information out there.
one is that she has adopted araw vegan diet, something else
said that she was plant based.
Yeah.
Tina (30:04):
Okay.
So we're not sure.
Leah (30:06):
We're not sure, but plants are, plants are definitely
involved.
I'm not a big fan of raw vegan.
I think we've talked about thatbefore, especially if somebody
lives in more northern climateswhere it's cold and damp and you
know all of that kind of stuff.
But That's just my take on that.
But plant based definitely issomething that.
We have talked about and wetalked to our patients about
Tina (30:29):
Yes.
Yeah.
I mean, that's clear.
That's very clear is that youneed to eat plants and you need
to eat a variety of plants.
Ideally.
I mean, if we're going to gofull bore, you want to eat them
as locally as you can and as inseason as you can.
As you know, I took a recenttrip to Italy and I, I was left
with the, Oh wow, we can't evenreally mimic the Mediterranean
(30:51):
diet because everything is growndown the road.
whatever they eat, that tomatodid not get shipped in.
I'm not eating, eggplant from, Idon't know, Egypt.
I'm eating it from down the roadup from a small farm.
So, so getting back to smallfarms and what's that
localharvest.
com is a great place to findconsumer supported agriculture
and your local farmers marketswherever you are in the whole
(31:14):
United States.
It's mapped out by zip code.
but that is one of the keys.
Leah (31:18):
it's still not an option for everyone.
I mean, there still are peoplewho Whether to to financial
reasons or just their you know,their location that isn't an
option But even if you'reincorporating more, you know, if
all that's a bit I'm thinking ofAlaska
Tina (31:35):
Oh, yeah.
Leah (31:36):
my sister lives, you know, like vegetables are really,
really expensive.
Their fruits and vegetables arecoming from, at least from
Seattle, the closest.
I mean, it's, you know, thereare places where it's just not
that accessible.
You know, it's challenging toget those fresh fruits,
vegetables, local stuff, and youcan grow stuff there, but not
everyone has the means.
(31:56):
So, um, you know, choosingfrozen, canned, whatever it is,
is fine.
Just include a lot of them and avariety of them.
Tina (32:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, we just dusted off ourlittle sprout jars, because
doing sprouts is something thatis both economical and not
intensive as far as space.
Anyone can sprout.
Seeds are inexpensive, watercomes out of the tap, and then
you have a jar with a screen.
so, that's one way to get greensin, inexpensively.
(32:26):
It just takes a little time to,you know, rinse them daily, but,
you know, that's not a big deal.
Leah (32:30):
Yeah, it's like having a pet.
It's like having an animal.
Edible pet.
I don't, I don't want to gothere.
I'm not going there.
But it is, it's, it's like this,it's like those, um, those
little electronic pets that we,in the 90s, they had those, I
forgot what they were called,and you had to like feed, like
electronically feed them everyday.
Anyways, okay, we're, we'redigressing.
(32:51):
Um, I wasn't able to findanything else about her
treatment, and I did look.
I really, because I was socurious.
I was also trying to figure outwhere she received her
treatment.
Tina (32:59):
Uh huh, uh huh.
Leah (33:00):
I'm glad I didn't find online because that would have
been really bad because someonewould have talked and then
that's hipba blah blah blah blahblah anyways
Tina (33:07):
Right.
Major violations, yes.
Leah (33:09):
major major Violations, um, she does Elle MacPherson did
say in their interview.
She does go for follow ups.
She gets blood work and imaging
Tina (33:21):
Yeah, so let's just talk about, like, foundationally,
there's no doubt in my mind partof her protocol is to sleep well
at night to exercise bothaerobic and anaerobic, meaning
resistive exercise, buildingmuscle.
Leah (33:36):
Oh, and I have to say in, in the interview, cause she's 60
years old.
And she was known as the body.
Like that's what her reputationwas.
I mean, she was sportsillustrated.
I believe Victoria's secret.
I mean, she claims that she'sstill kind of has that body.
So she's got trainers or she'sgot a great gym.
(33:57):
Like she has access to whatevershe wants to have that body at
her age.
Tina (34:03):
yes.
She's gifted with some geneticsand then probably works really
hard to keep herself healthy.
Leah (34:08):
Yeah.
Tina (34:09):
Yeah.
So, so let's just say that likeany what's accessible to anybody
is to move and exercise, youknow, if you, if you have a job
where you have to sit, thenmaybe try to get a modification
for a standing desk or make sureyou walk and, you know, like,
like there are aspects that areperfectly free in self care.
Leah (34:30):
Standing up every 30 minutes, isn't that a thing?
Like standing up and doingsquats every 30 minutes if you
have a desk job?
Tina (34:35):
Yeah, there's little apps you can put on there that go off
every 40 minutes and tell youtime to stand up, or then it go
off for a longer amount of timeand say, you know, time for your
walk, whatever.
So, um, I just want to put thatout there because yeah, she's
got the means to do this wholeintensive treatment, but there's
a lot of things that can beaddressed by just changing our
habits.
Leah (34:56):
Right?
Incorporating more fruits andvegetables, preferably fresh,
but if that's not accessible toyou, then just fruits and
vegetables.
grains, legumes, all of that.
More plants in your diet.
The mind body part I think ishuge.
Tina (35:09):
Mm hmm.
Leah (35:10):
Um, and as I admit, like it's not something that I, I
haven't gotten there yet.
almost 10 years later.
Um, um, she does have like asupplement line.
I don't know if you saw that.
Tina (35:26):
Oh yeah, they said something about a wellness line
or product line.
I didn't look it up.
Is it supplements?
Leah (35:31):
Yeah, so I looked it up.
I looked it up on my phone and Idon't always see things as well
on my phone.
she has a line of like thesepowders, powder supplements,
called Well, W E L L E.
And I did the little quiz to seewhich ones I needed,
Tina (35:47):
Yeah.
Leah (35:48):
according to their quiz.
And yeah, there were productsthat had astragalus.
Um, there was one that was likean elixir that I didn't see
anything.
I didn't see any ingredients onit.
Maybe if I looked online, Iwould have seen them, but I
didn't see it on my phone, but Imean, they were just like
vitamin and herbal blends.
Tina (36:07):
Mhm.
Leah (36:08):
That is her own product line.
I don't feel like she waspushing her product line in the
interview at all.
Tina (36:14):
Mhm.
Leah (36:15):
But, and I don't know who helped her develop those.
Cause I guess she's been intoholistic medicine for a long
time.
Um, as we mentioned, she doeshave a history of going through
rehab for alcoholism, and thatwas 20 years ago.
And so perhaps at that time iswhen she kind of started,
Tina (36:31):
I'm thinking that's true because she did mention I've
been in, you know, doing naturalmedicine things for about 20,
for, for 20 years.
Leah (36:37):
Yeah.
And she, she did her rehab.
She talks about doing the rehabin Arizona as well.
And so it kind of fits.
But yeah, she does have aproduct line, but she wasn't
pushing it.
I wasn't really that dazzled bythe supplements
Tina (36:49):
Well, sometimes I think you and I know so much it's hard
to be dazzled.
Sometimes you, I think you and Iknow so much about precision
built into each ingredient.
Like in our minds, that'sprecisely for this.
That's precisely for that.
And so sometimes when there's.
mishmashes.
It's hard to dazzle.
It's hard to be like, okay,that's awesome.
Because one, we've been doing itlong enough and there's so many
(37:11):
formulas.
A lot of them are just repeatsof other formulas.
It just comes down to quality atthat point.
Leah (37:16):
Yeah, and as we've talked about with any of these like
proprietary blends how much of aSomething is in there, you know,
like one of the formulas it saidlike cyanocobalamin, but I
didn't like look to see thelabel to be like how much b12
are you putting in there like
Tina (37:31):
Right.
Leah (37:32):
anyways, so Yeah, there's that
Tina (37:34):
Yeah.
Well, I will say you and I arenot easy to impress when it
comes to supplements though.
Leah (37:39):
No, and these whole powder things, you always hear me
complain.
It's, my big complaint is, whydo they always put so much stuff
in these powders?
Like, I'm looking for just likea greens powder.
I just want greens.
Because sometimes, I'm not, I'mnot gonna like blend my greens
and make a smoothie.
I just wanna throw powderedgreens in cause that's me.
And, they always have likeastragalus or um, ashwagandha,
(38:02):
like no, I don't want mushrooms,I don't want like, adaptogens.
I just want powdered greens.
Tina (38:08):
Yes.
Leah (38:10):
That's my big,
Tina (38:10):
But you're unusual.
Most people want other things inthere.
More is better.
What kind of American are you?
Leah (38:16):
I know and I, I'm just, just, I'm just lazy and I don't
want to always go out and get myfresh greens or like, you know,
whatever.
So, but it's not about me, it'sabout Elle.
So I guess that's kind of,that's kind of everything that
we, we got from her interview.
It was interesting.
Um, I do want to point out thatI feel that, as you mentioned in
(38:40):
the beginning, a lot of it washeadlines.
Tina (38:43):
Oh my God.
It's just, it's the same old,same old when it comes to
natural medicine and using plantmedicine.
And you know, if they can spinit into the negative zone and
maybe that's just media, maybethat's just always negative in
general, but I, it's been myentire career where if there's a
way to make it negative, they'regoing to do it.
So L.
McPherson is on the receivingend of that, unfortunately.
Leah (39:03):
And so are, so are NDs.
So I have never and will neverclaim to anybody that I can cure
their cancer.
My role has always been to besupportive using integrative
medicine.
Um, I thought it was in mylicense that I couldn't even
(39:25):
claim that.
I don't know if that changedover the years, but.
Tina (39:29):
Yeah,
Leah (39:30):
Because there are a lot of people out there who are, they
have claims, they on theirwebsite, they, they do say that
they treat and cure cancernaturally.
That is, I don't want thatresponsibility.
I don't have that knowledge todo that.
Tina (39:45):
I'm going to interject with anyone in an interview or
online or in any way, shape orform writes a book and uses the
word I, a doctor who treatscancer and says I this, I that,
I do this, I, you know, um, evenwhen I go to a lecture, I'll
notice this, that person hassuch an ego investment that I
don't trust their perspectivebecause they won't see their
(40:07):
failures, I, I, I, it's notabout the practitioner ever.
So anyone who's that vested inthe, in the.
So, the fact that they did it,they cured that person.
They didn't do anything.
I mean, they guided the person,they helped them, they taught
them.
But they can't say they did it.
if the patient is fortunateenough to not have cancer or
(40:28):
cancer recurrence, the patientdid it.
So, anyways.
It's a big red flag for me whenpeople start to do the research.
You know, I sentences big redflag means they're not probably
seeing anything in their worldwhere they didn't do well
Because the truth is nobodyknows you do your best and you
let the chips fall where they doAnd there's no way you can
control that and there's no wayyou can have 100 percent success
(40:50):
or 97 percent success for thatmatter It's not possible Because
we don't understand cancer wellenough and we don't understand
people well enough to curecancer on a regular basis.
I mean, if we could do that,we'd, you and I wouldn't be
sitting here doing a podcast.
We'd have a sanatorium on top ofa hill and do that.
Leah (41:05):
I know I used to tell my patients, if I, cause they would
say, well, you know, you donatural medicine, you know, big
pharma conspiracy, you know howto cure.
And I was like, if I had to carefor cancer, I would be handing
it out.
On street corners.
And that was before my parentswere diagnosed with cancer or
myself, you know, before I wasdiagnosed with cancer, I would
be giving it out for free as Ithink a lot of conventional
(41:29):
doctors would probably feel thatway too, because it's just,
it's, I'm going to getemotional.
Tina (41:35):
Oh, sure.
Yeah, you can't, you can't keepdown, you can't keep down the
human nature to help people.
I don't care.
I mean, yeah, I do think thatbig pharma slows us down.
No doubt.
No doubt.
Slows us down.
Because we would be a lotfarther along if we could study
our medicine on a more equalfooting and not just be about
(41:58):
pushing drugs and researchingthe drugs and
Leah (42:00):
Our medicine, like integrative medicine,
naturopathic medicine.
Yeah.
Tina (42:04):
integrative, yeah, naturopathic medicine.
If, if we had, if in an evidencebased world, um, we would have
more evidence if there were moreresearch dollars to go into it,
it's not that we're disproven.
Most of what we do, not all ofit, a lot of it has evidence,
but some of it is unprovensimply because we don't have the
evidence.
the means, the money, theinstitution, like Big Pharma has
(42:27):
behind it.
So it's, precision built intoeach ingredient.
Like in our minds, that'sprecisely for this.
That's precisely for that.
And so sometimes when there's.
mishmashes.
It's hard to dazzle.
It's hard to be like, okay,that's awesome.
Because one, we've been doing itlong enough and there's so many
formulas.
A lot of them are just repeatsof other formulas.
(42:47):
It just comes down to quality atthat point.
Leah (42:49):
Yeah, and as we've talked about with any of these like
proprietary blends how much of aSomething is in there, you know,
like one of the formulas it saidlike cyanocobalamin, but I
didn't like look to see thelabel to be like how much b12
are you putting in there like
Tina (43:04):
Right.
Leah (43:05):
anyways, so Yeah, there's that
Tina (43:08):
Yeah.
Well, I will say you and I arenot easy to impress when it
comes to supplements though.
Leah (43:13):
No, and these whole powder things, you always hear me
complain.
It's, my big complaint is, whydo they always put so much stuff
in these powders?
Like, I'm looking for just likea greens powder.
I just want greens.
Because sometimes, I'm not, I'mnot gonna like blend my greens
and make a smoothie.
I just wanna throw powderedgreens in cause that's me.
And, they always have likeastragalus or um, ashwagandha,
(43:36):
like no, I don't want mushrooms,I don't want like, adaptogens.
I just want powdered greens.
Tina (43:42):
Yes.
Leah (43:43):
That's my big,
Tina (43:44):
But you're unusual.
Most people want other things inthere.
More is better.
What kind of American are you?
Leah (43:50):
I know and I, I'm just, just, I'm just lazy and I don't
want to always go out and get myfresh greens or like, you know,
whatever.
So, but it's not about me, it'sabout Elle.
So I guess that's kind of,that's kind of everything that
we, we got from her interview.
It was interesting.
Um, I do want to point out thatI feel that, as you mentioned in
(44:13):
the beginning, a lot of it washeadlines.
Tina (44:16):
Oh my God.
It's just, it's the same old,same old when it comes to
natural medicine and using plantmedicine.
And you know, if they can spinit into the negative zone and
maybe that's just media, maybethat's just always negative in
general, but I, it's been myentire career where if there's a
way to make it negative, they'regoing to do it.
So L.
McPherson is on the receivingend of that, unfortunately.
Leah (44:37):
And so are, so are NDs.
So I have never and will neverclaim to anybody that I can cure
their cancer.
My role has always been to besupportive using integrative
medicine.
Um, I thought it was in mylicense that I couldn't even
(45:00):
claim that.
I don't know if that changedover the years, but.
Tina (45:03):
Yeah,
Leah (45:04):
Because there are a lot of people out there who are, they
have claims, they on theirwebsite, they, they do say that
they treat and cure cancernaturally.
That is, I don't want thatresponsibility.
I don't have that knowledge todo that.
Tina (45:19):
I'm going to interject with anyone in an interview or
online or in any way, shape orform writes a book and uses the
word I, a doctor who treatscancer and says I this, I that,
I do this, I, you know, um, evenwhen I go to a lecture, I'll
notice this, that person hassuch an ego investment that I
don't trust their perspectivebecause they won't see their
(45:41):
failures, I, I, I, it's notabout the practitioner ever.
So anyone who's that vested inthe, in the.
So, the fact that they did it,they cured that person.
They didn't do anything.
I mean, they guided the person,they helped them, they taught
them.
But they can't say they did it.
The patient, oh, if the patientis fortunate enough to not have
(46:03):
cancer or cancer recurrence, thepatient did it.
So, anyways.
It's a big red flag for me whenpeople start to do the research.
You know, I sentences big redflag means they're not probably
seeing anything in their worldwhere they didn't do well
Because the truth is nobodyknows you do your best and you
let the chips fall where they doAnd there's no way you can
(46:25):
control that and there's no wayyou can have 100 percent success
or 97 percent success for thatmatter It's not possible Because
we don't understand cancer wellenough and we don't understand
people well enough to curecancer on a regular basis.
I mean, if we could do that,we'd, you and I wouldn't be
sitting here doing a podcast.
We'd have a sanatorium on top ofa hill and do that.
Leah (46:43):
I know I used to tell my patients, if I, cause they would
say, well, you know, you donatural medicine, you know, big
pharma conspiracy, you know howto cure.
And I was like, if I had to carefor cancer, I would be handing
it out.
On street corners.
And that was before my parentswere diagnosed with cancer you
know, before I was diagnosedwith cancer, I would be giving
it out for free
Tina (47:04):
Oh, sure.
Yeah, you can't, you can't keepdown the human nature to help
people.
I don't care.
I mean, yeah, I do think thatbig pharma
Leah (47:13):
Thanks for listening to The Cancer Pod.
Remember to subscribe, review,and rate us wherever you get
your podcasts.
Follow us on social media forupdates.
And as always, this is notmedical advice.
These are our opinions.
Talk to your doctor beforechanging anything related to
your treatment plan.
The Cancer Pod is hosted by me,Dr.
(47:34):
Leah Sherman, and by Dr.
Tina Kazer.
Music is by Kevin MacLeod.
See you next time.
And she says in her interview, you know, if it's a
(00:02):
choice between losing my breastor losing my life, losing her
breast was her, you know, and itwas her option, but then she
chose for whatever reasons to goa more holistic route route
route.
She chose to go, she chose to goa more holistic route.
(00:22):
Root?
Route?
I don't know what the root is!
Tina (00:25):
It could be either.
Leah (00:26):
Okay, either!
Tina (00:27):
Either.
Leah (01:17):
Hey, Tina.
Tina (01:18):
Hey, Leah, how you doing?
Leah (01:20):
I'm doing well.
Did you watch that video I sentyou?
Tina (01:22):
I did.
I actually did my homework thistime.
Leah (01:26):
Awesome.
Tina (01:27):
We both know that's not a given.
Leah (01:29):
No, that's not.
Um, did you know who ElleMacpherson was before you
watched the video?
Tina (01:37):
No.
Leah (01:38):
Okay.
I didn't think so.
Tina (01:40):
Her name is vaguely familiar, but if you said, who's
Elle McPherson, I probably wouldhave meant, I don't know, an
actress.
Leah (01:46):
Yeah.
Now I know that you're not like,you know, you're, you don't have
the finger on the pulse ofcultural, whatever the word is.
I don't know.
Tina (01:54):
Yeah.
I went to a trivia night andpeople expected me to know
things and I was like, this isall pop culture.
I know nothing.
I mean.
Leah (02:02):
Yeah,
Tina (02:03):
yeah.
Leah (02:03):
so I was very familiar with who Elle Macpherson is
because I Know about models andsupermodels and all that stuff.
Anyways, so to our listeners weare talking about the 60 Minutes
Australia video That is onYouTube Where Elle Macpherson is
interviewed about her book thatshe is coming out with that is
(02:26):
going to be released in the USin November of 2024 And there is
a portion of the interview whereshe talks about her breast
cancer diagnosis in 2017.
Tina (02:39):
Yeah, I have seen rumblings on social media about
this, and so it is being talkedabout a lot.
And, um, the reason I haven'treally paid much attention to
those conversations, and I washappy to watch the 60 Minutes
video, it's like everything wedo, it's kind of going back to
the source.
So I was glad you sent me thatvideo because I want to know
(02:59):
what she has to say.
not what other people areinterpreting her as having have
said.
Leah (03:03):
Well, exactly.
And I looked into the videobecause of everything I had seen
on social media.
And then I started seeingheadlines where, these different
media outlets were declaringthat Elle Macpherson refused
chemotherapy, cured herselfnaturally of breast cancer.
And so when I learned of thisvideo on YouTube, I was like,
(03:27):
like you said, we don't haveaccess to the book to read it.
So that was the next best thing,um, was to listen.
And what's interesting about theinterview is it's not all about
her cancer diagnosis.
She talks about her history ofalcoholism, and other things.
And so The breast cancer part ofher book.
It's one chapter as is I'm surethe alcoholism and other issues,
(03:49):
you know Relationships orwhatever she talks about she
talks about her insecurities andmodeling I mean, it's just the
interview just doesn't focusonly on the cancer part, but
that's the part that I wantedyou to see
Tina (04:00):
Yeah, I found it really interesting, and, I know,
because I've been doing naturalmedicine for 25 years, that what
happens in headlines, eventhrough media, before social
media, regular media, the spinzone, you know, things get spun
out of control and just forreadership and more eyeballs on
there.
Whatever they're writing orblogging or publishing.
(04:22):
So, I kind of knew that it wasprobably going to be different
from her mouth than it is fromthe scuttlebutt that I see
online.
Leah (04:28):
right, and I I mean I understand when cancer patients
and survivors are saying this isirresponsible, you know,
promoting natural medicine,alternative medicine, I should
say, you know, instead of doingconventional treatment, you
know, pushing that.
I mean, yeah, I, I get all ofthat.
(04:49):
Um, watching the interview, wasshe pushing it?
It didn't seem like she waspushing it.
She said it was her choice.
I do know there are people outthere who will say, well, if L.
McPherson can do it, then I cando it.
but.
maybe we should start at thebeginning so Let's let's let's
rewind and we'll do a little bitof history of what we gathered
from the interview,
Tina (05:11):
So, her diagnosis.
What was her diagnosis exactly?
Leah (05:14):
right?
So her diagnosis according tothe interview was a"Her2
positive estrogen receptiveintraductal carcinoma with
positive margins."
Tina (05:27):
Mm hmm.
Leah (05:28):
So, in the United States, we would say HER2 positive, ER
positive, you know, estrogenreceptor positive, um, DCIS,
ductal carcinoma in situ.
Stage zero is what they call itin terms of, the staging of,
breast cancer.
There is a standard of care thatpatients in the U.
(05:49):
S.
would receive, and that isaccording to the National
Comprehensive Cancer Network,NCCN.
From what I gathered from theinterview, it's the same in
Australia?
Tina (06:00):
Yeah, I think the conventional recommendation
sounded exactly the same, whichis surgery.
With large enough margins or ifthe margins are small, they're
still clear, but they're smallerthan a certain amount, then it's
lumpectomy plus radiation.
And, and hormone blockade ifit's estrogen receptor positive.
Leah (06:20):
Right, and then sometimes a mastectomy is recommended, or
a patient chooses to have amastectomy to reduce the risk of
a recurrence on the same side.
Tina (06:31):
Yeah, and I don't have any patients in my recollection that
have ever been offered orrecommended chemotherapy for
DCIS.
Leah (06:40):
No, no, um, I'm looking at the NCCN guidelines right now
and that is not in there.
It is, uh, let's see, I'mlooking.
You look for the tumor estrogenreceptor status.
Typically HER2 is not somethingthat is looked at.
Tina (07:00):
Not in DCIS.
Leah (07:02):
Not in DCIS, correct.
Tina (07:03):
Here in the States.
Leah (07:05):
Breast conserving surgery without lymph node surgery or
total mastectomy with sentinellymph node biopsy and
reconstruction would beoptional, plus or minus
reconstruction.
With the breast conservingsurgery, which is a lumpectomy,
then you have the option ofeither whole breast radiation,
(07:26):
accelerated partial breastradiation, or no radiation.
Tina (07:31):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Leah (07:32):
And then post treatment, you would be offered tamoxifen
or an aromatase inhibitor if youare post menopausal.
Tina (07:41):
Exactly.
Yeah.
And so in the interview, shementioned that she was offered
or recommended aggressivetherapy, including chemotherapy,
radiation and hormone blockade.
That would be unusual here inthe States.
I do think she's being honest.
Now, I don't think there's anyduplicitous nature in anything
(08:01):
that she's doing with the bookor the interviews or anything
like that.
When people are saying, Oh,she's lying and blah, blah,
blah, and people get all uppity.
Um, I think she heard what sheheard and somehow along the way
she thought chemotherapy wasgoing to be something that Maybe
some facilities recommend forher.
I don't doubt her.
I think she heard exactly whatshe heard in my experience.
(08:23):
Sometimes people hear thingsthat are a not a hundred percent
correct.
So I've seen thousands andthousands of patients, and there
are times that people hearsomething and they know they
heard what they heard, but it'sjust a little off from what was
said.
So.
I don't know what, I mean, wecan speculate that maybe someone
said, well, if we find thatthere is invasive ductal
carcinoma, blah, blah, blah.
(08:44):
Like, I don't know.
Leah (08:45):
That's what, that's what I was thinking.
I was thinking that if they diddiscuss one of your options, and
I think she sought treatment inthe U.
S.
that's the impression I got fromthe interview.
But if somebody said.
you can choose a mastectomy.
We will do a Sentinel lymph nodebiopsy at that time.
If there is cancer in that lymphnode, then chemotherapy, that
(09:05):
could have been the conversationthat I could totally see.
I mean, we've both hadconversations with patients.
You know, I used to see themimmediately after they would get
their treatment plan from thedoctor and the nurse.
You know, they would talk tothem about the treatment plan.
Then they'd come to me and theywould.
They, you know, they hadadditional questions.
And so, you know, we've hadpatients where it's like, we've
(09:27):
had to clarify.
That's not, you know, that's notwhat the plan was.
Tina (09:31):
Yeah.
It's totally understandable.
Mm
Leah (09:34):
yeah, your brain isn't, you're not present.
I mean, it is, it's like you'regiven this diagnosis, you're
given this treatment plan.
It's a lot of information.
You don't have a medicalbackground.
Um, you're taking notes or maybeyou're not taking notes.
Maybe you're recording it.
Maybe you're not, you know, so.
We don't know what she wasactually told, but that's her
recollection of what she wastold.
Tina (09:55):
Exactly.
There's two possibilities too.
I mean, one, she walked awaywith that and misheard it in a
way that it wasn't actually arecommendation, at least not at
that point for DCIS.
Or, and this is a horrible idea,chemotherapy is really a cash
cow.
And so if she went somewherethat was completely unscrupulous
or somehow You know, not legitin that sense, chemotherapy has
(10:18):
been given to patients that waslike a marginal, benefit.
I've had that happen to patientsin the past where chemotherapy
was given.
I thought to myself, wow,that's, it seemed like an
overtreatment for some people.
Leah (10:31):
Oh, absolutely.
We, you know, working at CancerTreatment Centers of America, we
saw patients that were comingfor second opinions and
definitely saw patients who werediagnosed with breast cancer
came to us because thechemotherapy was too much for
them.
And they thought they, theywould get alternative medicine
at CTCA, which they did not, butthen learned from the
(10:53):
oncologist.
Well, for your type of breastcancer, at your stage, chemo
really isn't indicated.
But I have a feeling she wentto, like, I mean, She was a
supermodel.
She has access to the besthealth care.
Tina (11:08):
like a superpowers.
She's got superpowers to go
Leah (11:11):
No, she's a supermodel.
She's not, you know, going tosome, you know, off the grid
cancer center.
And so when I, I looked at Mayo,City of Hope, MD Anderson, those
are the kind of the big guns.
I mean, there are other cancercenters, you know, in the
Phoenix area, but, and I justassumed that she went to Arizona
for her treatment discussions.
(11:31):
But, you know, they all, allthose websites.
State that what we just said forstandard of care for DCIS, it's
on the website.
So anyways, we don't know whoshe talked to.
We don't know what cancer centershe went to.
we have doing a lot ofdisclaimers here.
Tina (11:48):
Well, yeah, because we're speculating a little bit, but
the whole idea here is this is agood opportunity to talk about,
you know, there's a time and aplace for natural medicine and
conventional medicine and can Isay something in this interview?
I have a little pet peeve, andthat is when conventional
medicine, orthodox medicine,allopathic medicine, those are
all synonyms.
(12:09):
What it is not.
And it should never be called istraditional medicine.
So people can refer, and theinterviewer did this, she
referred to conventionalmedicine as traditional
medicine.
Leah (12:18):
Oh, I didn't catch that.
Tina (12:20):
Mmm, I only catch it because I'm like, it rubs me the
wrong way.
Um, it's not traditional,
Leah (12:25):
Well, I, cause when I think of traditional medicine, I
think of indigenous medicine,
Tina (12:29):
Traditional medicine is herbal medicine and all, you
know, a shaman might practicetraditional medicine, so just
saying, saying that, because youknow, from a language
perspective, I'd like to beconsistent and traditional
means, more ethno botanicalmedicine, maybe Chinese medicine
or whatever.
So I just wanna put that outthere.
'cause I, you said conventional,which I agree with.
(12:50):
I think conventional is the termthat everyone can understand,
but,
Leah (12:52):
That's, that's what I typically use.
I don't, yeah, I don't think ofit as traditional.
Um, I want to rewind a littlebit and I want us to talk about
the HER2 positive receptor ingeneral, and then also in
connection with the DCIS.
Tina (13:09):
so, well you did a little bit of research on this.
I'll let you talk about it.
Leah (13:13):
So, HER2 is a receptor.
It is the human epidermal growthfactor receptor 2, and it's a
protein that promotes the growthof cancer cells.
It's checked in breast cancer,when it's invasive.
It's one of the receptors theycheck, they check the estrogen
and progesterone receptors andthey check the HER2 receptor.
(13:37):
Um, but it's also found on othercancers.
The status is also found withother cancers.
which we're not going to talkabout because that's not the
topic.
So it is a receptor that can betargeted with certain
medications.
Herceptin and Projeta are theones that we think of the most.
(13:57):
and it's not typically tested orchecked in DCIS.
Tina (14:03):
So let's talk about why it's tested normally.
So an invasive ductal carcinoma.
So DCIS is not invasive.
Ductal carcinoma.
Ductal carcinoma in situ is thatintraductal breast cancer, what
they referred to as intraductalin the interview.
I looked it up quickly just tosee, I was like, why did they do
HER2 status on DCIS?
(14:26):
Assuming everything they'resaying is accurate.
It's unusual to do because it'snot prognostic in DCIS as it is
with invasive ductal carcinoma.
So in DCIS, it's positive moreoften.
It's around 40 percent of thetime it's positive, but it has
no bearing on.
The treatment, normal DCIStreatment, doesn't depend on
(14:49):
HER2 status at all.
When we look at invasive ductalcarcinoma, it's positive 15,
maybe 20 percent of the time.
Maybe more than that now,there's a little bit more
sensitive testing going on.
Um, in any case, yes, I did alittle reconnaissance just
looking at that, because Ithought that was kind of unusual
to have the HER2 status forDCIS.
Leah (15:10):
I do remember a particular patient where their HER2 status
was checked at the prior cancercenter.
And I remember talking with theoncologist and I was like, what,
what about the HER2 status?
where does trastuzumab, youknow, Herceptin come into play?
And he said, no, we don't,that's not something with that
we look at.
So I'm sure that they're stilllooking at it.
(15:31):
They're still doing tests.
You know, there's still researcharound it about what, you know,
the significance is, but it'slike you said, it's more
prevalent In carcinoma in situthan it is in.
invasive, uh, cancer.
Tina (15:44):
I'll put a link to that study.
It's called Prognostic andPredictive Value of Her2
Expression in Ductal Carcinomain Situ.
So I'll put a link to that sopeople can go back and look at
it if they're interested.
Leah (15:54):
yeah, and it, in invasive cancers, it is, I mean, in
general, it is a sign of a moreaggressive cancer.
Tina (16:02):
Right.
For invasive ductal carcinomas.
Leah (16:04):
Yeah.
So, but they're not quite surewhat it means, as you said, you
know, in, DCIS.
So, so that was kind of a, likea, I don't know what you call
it.
It like, threw a little, awrench in the whole story.
It's like, cause like, why wasit, why was it checked?
You know, it,
Tina (16:21):
Yeah.
Because she used the wordaggressive.
They told her that her DCIS wasaggressive.
And normally that's is not likethe invasive form of breast
cancer.
The aggressiveness depends onthe architectural pattern of the
tissue, the, what we call thehistology and on the nuclear
grade, like how many cells aredividing.
(16:41):
And so there is, there is ascale, right?
Papillary, solid, cribiform.
There's a scale ofaggressiveness for DCIS.
So I don't doubt that either.
She was told, you know, you havea crib of form or you have a
highly aggressive architecturalpattern to the tissue.
I don't doubt that because youcan use the word aggressive and
DCIS in the same sentence.
(17:02):
That's a truism.
It just doesn't mean the samething as invasive ductal
carcinoma once it leaves theducts because when you say
aggressive then, it has moreprognostic consequences, right?
So it really means that this ismore likely to go somewhere else
in your body because it'salready left the duct itself,
the actual mammary gland duct.
(17:25):
All right.
I just want to clarify that
Leah (17:27):
Okay.
So that's kind of, thebackground on the pieces.
You know, the pieces that wewere able to glean from the
interview.
Um, neither of us have treatedher.
We don't know her.
Tina (17:38):
and just so we're clear on that's all the diagnosis
clarifications and ourunderstanding of what's going
on.
And for her treatment, just sowe're crystal clear, she had
what she called a lumpectomywith positive margins and then a
second lumpectomy that also hadpositive margins and that's it
for conventional medicine.
That's where she stopped withthe conventional and then she
went on.
Leah (17:56):
What I'm thinking is with that second surgery, if that's
not when the mastectomy wasdiscussed.
Tina (18:03):
Mm hmm.
Leah (18:04):
And she says in her interview, you know, if it's a
choice between losing my breastor losing my life, losing her
breast was her, you know, and itwas her option, but then she
chose for whatever reasons to goa more holistic route route
route.
She chose to go, she chose to goa more holistic route.
(18:26):
Root?
Route?
I don't know what the root is!
Tina (18:29):
It could be either.
Leah (18:30):
Okay, either!
Tina (18:31):
Either.
Leah (18:35):
Um, And that's kind of where, like, we know very little
about what she did.
She does talk a little bit, ingeneral that she, I have notes,
she saw two doctors, twoholistic doctors in the Phoenix
area.
Tina (18:49):
Well, just to be clear, she saw 32 different doctors
settled on those two.
Yeah.
Leah (18:57):
doctors.
She underwent eight months ofwhat she described as intense
therapy, um, a natural, verycomplex protocol.
She received, naturalmedications as IVs.
she saw a holistic dentist, Ibelieve.
She saw osteopaths,chiropractors, and she did a lot
(19:18):
of spiritual work.
Does she claim she was cured?
In the interview, she says, thatshe was"healed through her
breast cancer." she didn't claimthat she was cured.
She talks about how she'sconsidered in remission.
Tina (19:39):
and this is where, you know, she gained a lot of
validity in my mind.
And I was like, she's not reallytrying to tell anyone anything,
except her own experience.
I get it.
She has the means financiallyand time wise to do whatever she
damn well pleases.
So my thought is, yeah, okay.
(19:59):
I know what she's saying.
She got an intense IV.
She could have gotten all sortsof things that are being used as
anti cancer treatments that arenatural.
Natural derivatives.
They do IV curcumin,artemisinin.
you can do off label drugs aswell.
And I know that's not natural.
You can go on specialty dietsand you have the means of
somebody to help you throughthat, whether you're paying for
(20:20):
people to do it or paying forpeople to cook it for you, it
doesn't matter.
But I do think that if moneywere no object, I've actually
had this Y in the road ofdecision making with patients
when, to be perfectly honest,Because of their financial
situation, they had to dosomething more conventional
rather than more natural.
Leah (20:39):
Well, what I want to point out in terms of the treatment
that Elle MacPherson didreceive, the conventional
treatment, surgery was it.
Surgery was her treatment.
Tina (20:50):
Mm-Hmm.
Leah (20:50):
And as I read with the NCCN guidelines, radiation,
whole breast, partial breastradiation or no radiation.
So the treatments that shedeclined were kind of the add
ons, right?
I mean, it's like the surgery isthe treatment and she did have a
positive margin, whichpersonally, I had a very close
(21:12):
margin after my mastectomy, myskin sparing mastectomy, I
suppose they could have takeneverything.
but they didn't, they, theyleft.
You know, the, the skin, I don'tknow what else to say.
They left the skin on the skinsparing mastectomy.
And my radiation oncologistspoke with her people at
(21:33):
Memorial Sloan Kettering, andthey all agreed I didn't need
radiation.
So, but as different, mine wasinvasive ductile, so it's
completely different.
But what I'm saying is thatpositive margin would have
indicated that.
conventionally, she probablyneeded additional treatments,
you know,
Tina (21:53):
radiation.
Leah (21:54):
radiation or the mastectomy.
Tina (21:56):
Mm-Hmm.
Mm-Hmm.
Leah (21:57):
So anyways, I do want to say that, that, that was a huge
part of her treatment.
You know, it's like, it's notlike she for went for went, why
can I not speak this morning?
Um, she, she didn't foregoconventional treatment.
She received conventionaltreatment.
So we have to really emphasizethat.
Tina (22:15):
Right.
You know, that's an importantpoint because that happens a lot
in our world of straddlingnatural and conventional
medicine.
a lot of proponents out there,and I will not name names, but
make entire empires based on,you know, having, been on the
right side of the coin when youtoss a 50 50 chance of
recurrence after surgery withoutdoing chemo, or radiation or
(22:39):
whatever, whatever theadjunctive therapy is.
And they're on the right side ofthe coin, and they live to tell
about it, and then they createan entire, business around that
about natural medicine, but theyhad surgery.
Leah (22:49):
Yeah, they had surgery and then they claim it was the
natural therapy that theyadopted afterwards that cured
them instead of saying, Hey,well, I did have surgery and
that was the main treatmentrecommendation.
Tina (23:01):
Now the, the beauty of those stats is I look at
whatever those stats are.
Okay.
So let's, let's talk about this.
So you have reducing the risk ofrecurrence.
So we have stats on chemo andradiation.
Like your risk would be, I don'tknow, 30 percent if you don't do
the radiation, it'll be 20percent if you do the radiation.
We know these numbers, likethese are actually flushed out
(23:22):
pretty well.
In this interview, they, Italked to a medical oncologist,
not on camera, off camera, andreported that the oncologist
said right now, L.
McPherson has a 20 percentchance of recurrence.
Now I get it.
She's like, let's see, two outof 10 is my chance.
If I don't do any of thatradiation or what's radiation
(23:43):
going to do, bring it down toone out of 10.
Like you can really look at thestats and be mindful of the fact
that sometimes The benefit nyour mind, and for you, and for
your particular trajectory inlife, isn't worth it.
So I'm saying that because it'sone of those things that I get
it in some ways.
If it's a 20 percent chance now,you know, two out of 10, it
(24:07):
means that it would have reducedit down below that.
Let's say cut it in half.
It's one out of 10.
if that status correct,
Leah (24:13):
And I worked with a doctor who had a history of breast
cancer, had recurrences while Iwas working with her, had a
recurrence.
And I think they were talking toher about.
The certain treatment, you know,it's a 30 percent chance of
recurrence unless you do this.
And she was like, I look at itas a 70 percent chance of not
(24:35):
having a recurrence.
You know, it's kind of, how doyou look at it?
Is she looking at it as, well,it's an 80 percent chance of me
not getting it.
I mean, it's, you know,
Tina (24:44):
that's exactly it.
Leah (24:45):
20 percent is huge, but 20 percent is huge, but it's like,
how are you?
Yeah.
How are you?
What's your perspective of it?
So anyways, that, that's my, my,that's my little story.
Tina (24:54):
Well, and I always look at that as the worst case scenario.
So if the, if you were giventhat number 20 percent chance,
those are people who do nothing.
So now you say, okay.
I have the time and the means togo do natural therapies where I
will work on my body.
I will look at my risk factors.
I will remove them.
If I'm overweight, I will losethe weight.
If I'm drinking too muchalcohol, I'll stop doing that.
(25:16):
If I'm smoking, I'll stop doingthat.
If I can't sleep, I'll, youknow, so, so you are probably
ticking away at that 20 percentas you remove any risk factors
that you had when you got yourdiagnosis.
We don't have So I look atwhatever it is without
adjunctive treatment as theworst case scenario without
natural medicine.
And then anything you do tobetter yourself and get yourself
(25:37):
in better health, you'reprobably ticking away at that
percentage.
We just don't know how much.
Leah (25:40):
And again, both of us have seen patients who refused any
conventional medicine, at all,and they just wanted to do
alternative medicine.
And again, working at CTCA, Isaw a lot of patients who came
(26:01):
to us with advanced cancersafter they had declined.
Maybe some of them hadlumpectomies, and then declined.
further treatment.
Tina (26:10):
hmm.
Leah (26:11):
Others had invasive ductal carcinoma and opted for
alternative natural treatmentsand they came back with stage
four cancer that's not curable.
Tina (26:22):
Yeah.
This is where we're all aproduct of our own experiences,
right?
So if they did well, you're notgoing to hear from them.
If they recur or have ametastasis, you're going to see
them as a clinician.
So you're you're going to leanmore towards more treatment in
the first, you know, thatfrontline diagnosis because you
don't want them to recur andyou're like, well, do everything
you possibly can.
So this doesn't happen.
(26:44):
But the people who.
Don't do it.
Do refuse it.
Most of them are not ElleMacPherson writing a book.
And so we don't know about them.
Leah (26:51):
And, and most of them don't have the means, not to say
that if you have money, thenchoose alternative medicine.
I'm not saying that at all, but
Tina (27:00):
I'm saying alternative medicine is not even an option,
or complete natural medicine inthis particular scenario with
positive margins, which is ahigher risk of recurrence.
It's less an option.
Then it would be if you have themeans to do what she did, which
is an eight month complexintensive program.
it's just not an option for alot of folks.
And I'm not saying people can'tdo it.
They can do whatever they want.
(27:21):
I'm a firm believer in knowingthe data and choosing your path.
Um, I actually think all thisdata should be more, more
available.
At the ready and maybe with AI,it will be people can just ask
and find this information now.
but generally speaking, peoplehave been misinformed a lot of
the times.
In my experience, people havebeen given data about relative
risk rather than absolute risk.
(27:43):
That's a whole notherdiscussion.
But if someone looks up thedifference between the two, you
can see how relative risk can bevery misleading as to how much
benefit you get from something.
Absolute risk is really the onlything we should be thinking
about and talking about, becausethat's how our brains work, you
know.
How many out of a hundred,right?
Not relative risk, which is awhole different ballgame, which
is often what people are given.
Leah (28:03):
changing subjects slightly.
Did you, Dive into trying tofind out what she did.
Okay, I did.
Oh, I, I mean, I didn't go intothe dark web, but I was like, I
was putting in every wordcombination to see what exactly
it was that she did.
(28:24):
Um, she did kind of talk about,in terms of like, like some of
the spiritual mind body workthat she did.
I really admire her for thatbecause she says that she
doesn't worry about recurrence.
She doesn't think about it andthat the fear itself is, you
know, not a good thing.
as a naturopathic doctor with ahistory of breast cancer, I wish
(28:45):
I could say the same for myself,
Tina (28:46):
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Leah (28:49):
you know, so that, you know, And we have spoken with
People recently, you know, we'vehad professionals come on,
experts in the mind body fieldwho talk about the importance of
that as being, part of yourintegrative care.
Tina (29:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's really deep work.
I mean, it's really deep workand it, it's, It's hard because
it's not as structured as therest of it, right?
You can go find a trainer, youcan go find a gym, you can look
up online, you know, how to, howto make more muscle mass in your
body and lower your risk by,lowering inflammation or what to
eat.
But finding spiritual guidanceand doing real Deep work, is so
(29:29):
individualized, so personal andis so loaded in some ways.
you know, if you don't go to thewrong person, I think there's
potential for damage too.
So, to your point, I'm glad thatwe've talked to some folks in
that arena that are trueprofessionals, so that people
can maybe look back at the olderepisodes and go from there for
some guidance.
But, um, Yeah, I think it'sfraught with some dangers if
(29:49):
it's not done right.
Leah (29:50):
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
Tina (29:53):
Yeah.
Leah (29:53):
Um, the other thing I learned, there was different
information out there.
one is that she has adopted araw vegan diet, something else
said that she was plant based.
Yeah.
Tina (30:04):
Okay.
So we're not sure.
Leah (30:06):
We're not sure, but plants are, plants are definitely
involved.
I'm not a big fan of raw vegan.
I think we've talked about thatbefore, especially if somebody
lives in more northern climateswhere it's cold and damp and you
know all of that kind of stuff.
But That's just my take on that.
But plant based definitely issomething that.
We have talked about and wetalked to our patients about
Tina (30:29):
Yes.
Yeah.
I mean, that's clear.
That's very clear is that youneed to eat plants and you need
to eat a variety of plants.
Ideally.
I mean, if we're going to gofull bore, you want to eat them
as locally as you can and as inseason as you can.
As you know, I took a recenttrip to Italy and I, I was left
with the, Oh wow, we can't evenreally mimic the Mediterranean
(30:51):
diet because everything is growndown the road.
whatever they eat, that tomatodid not get shipped in.
I'm not eating, eggplant from, Idon't know, Egypt.
I'm eating it from down the roadup from a small farm.
So, so getting back to smallfarms and what's that
localharvest.
com is a great place to findconsumer supported agriculture
and your local farmers marketswherever you are in the whole
(31:14):
United States.
It's mapped out by zip code.
but that is one of the keys.
Leah (31:18):
it's still not an option for everyone.
I mean, there still are peoplewho Whether to to financial
reasons or just their you know,their location that isn't an
option But even if you'reincorporating more, you know, if
all that's a bit I'm thinking ofAlaska
Tina (31:35):
Oh, yeah.
Leah (31:36):
my sister lives, you know, like vegetables are really,
really expensive.
Their fruits and vegetables arecoming from, at least from
Seattle, the closest.
I mean, it's, you know, thereare places where it's just not
that accessible.
You know, it's challenging toget those fresh fruits,
vegetables, local stuff, and youcan grow stuff there, but not
everyone has the means.
(31:56):
So, um, you know, choosingfrozen, canned, whatever it is,
is fine.
Just include a lot of them and avariety of them.
Tina (32:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, we just dusted off ourlittle sprout jars, because
doing sprouts is something thatis both economical and not
intensive as far as space.
Anyone can sprout.
Seeds are inexpensive, watercomes out of the tap, and then
you have a jar with a screen.
so, that's one way to get greensin, inexpensively.
(32:26):
It just takes a little time to,you know, rinse them daily, but,
you know, that's not a big deal.
Leah (32:30):
Yeah, it's like having a pet.
It's like having an animal.
Edible pet.
I don't, I don't want to gothere.
I'm not going there.
But it is, it's, it's like this,it's like those, um, those
little electronic pets that we,in the 90s, they had those, I
forgot what they were called,and you had to like feed, like
electronically feed them everyday.
Anyways, okay, we're, we'redigressing.
(32:51):
Um, I wasn't able to findanything else about her
treatment, and I did look.
I really, because I was socurious.
I was also trying to figure outwhere she received her
treatment.
Tina (32:59):
Uh huh, uh huh.
Leah (33:00):
I'm glad I didn't find online because that would have
been really bad because someonewould have talked and then
that's hipba blah blah blah blahblah anyways
Tina (33:07):
Right.
Major violations, yes.
Leah (33:09):
major major Violations, um, she does Elle MacPherson did
say in their interview.
She does go for follow ups.
She gets blood work and imaging
Tina (33:21):
Yeah, so let's just talk about, like, foundationally,
there's no doubt in my mind partof her protocol is to sleep well
at night to exercise bothaerobic and anaerobic, meaning
resistive exercise, buildingmuscle.
Leah (33:36):
Oh, and I have to say in, in the interview, cause she's 60
years old.
And she was known as the body.
Like that's what her reputationwas.
I mean, she was sportsillustrated.
I believe Victoria's secret.
I mean, she claims that she'sstill kind of has that body.
So she's got trainers or she'sgot a great gym.
(33:57):
Like she has access to whatevershe wants to have that body at
her age.
Tina (34:03):
yes.
She's gifted with some geneticsand then probably works really
hard to keep herself healthy.
Leah (34:08):
Yeah.
Tina (34:09):
Yeah.
So, so let's just say that likeany what's accessible to anybody
is to move and exercise, youknow, if you, if you have a job
where you have to sit, thenmaybe try to get a modification
for a standing desk or make sureyou walk and, you know, like,
like there are aspects that areperfectly free in self care.
Leah (34:30):
Standing up every 30 minutes, isn't that a thing?
Like standing up and doingsquats every 30 minutes if you
have a desk job?
Tina (34:35):
Yeah, there's little apps you can put on there that go off
every 40 minutes and tell youtime to stand up, or then it go
off for a longer amount of timeand say, you know, time for your
walk, whatever.
So, um, I just want to put thatout there because yeah, she's
got the means to do this wholeintensive treatment, but there's
a lot of things that can beaddressed by just changing our
habits.
Leah (34:56):
Right?
Incorporating more fruits andvegetables, preferably fresh,
but if that's not accessible toyou, then just fruits and
vegetables.
grains, legumes, all of that.
More plants in your diet.
The mind body part I think ishuge.
Tina (35:09):
Mm hmm.
Leah (35:10):
Um, and as I admit, like it's not something that I, I
haven't gotten there yet.
almost 10 years later.
Um, um, she does have like asupplement line.
I don't know if you saw that.
Tina (35:26):
Oh yeah, they said something about a wellness line
or product line.
I didn't look it up.
Is it supplements?
Leah (35:31):
Yeah, so I looked it up.
I looked it up on my phone and Idon't always see things as well
on my phone.
she has a line of like thesepowders, powder supplements,
called Well, W E L L E.
And I did the little quiz to seewhich ones I needed,
Tina (35:47):
Yeah.
Leah (35:48):
according to their quiz.
And yeah, there were productsthat had astragalus.
Um, there was one that was likean elixir that I didn't see
anything.
I didn't see any ingredients onit.
Maybe if I looked online, Iwould have seen them, but I
didn't see it on my phone, but Imean, they were just like
vitamin and herbal blends.
Tina (36:07):
Mhm.
Leah (36:08):
That is her own product line.
I don't feel like she waspushing her product line in the
interview at all.
Tina (36:14):
Mhm.
Leah (36:15):
But, and I don't know who helped her develop those.
Cause I guess she's been intoholistic medicine for a long
time.
Um, as we mentioned, she doeshave a history of going through
rehab for alcoholism, and thatwas 20 years ago.
And so perhaps at that time iswhen she kind of started,
Tina (36:31):
I'm thinking that's true because she did mention I've
been in, you know, doing naturalmedicine things for about 20,
for, for 20 years.
Leah (36:37):
Yeah.
And she, she did her rehab.
She talks about doing the rehabin Arizona as well.
And so it kind of fits.
But yeah, she does have aproduct line, but she wasn't
pushing it.
I wasn't really that dazzled bythe supplements
Tina (36:49):
Well, sometimes I think you and I know so much it's hard
to be dazzled.
Sometimes you, I think you and Iknow so much about precision
built into each ingredient.
Like in our minds, that'sprecisely for this.
That's precisely for that.
And so sometimes when there's.
mishmashes.
It's hard to dazzle.
It's hard to be like, okay,that's awesome.
Because one, we've been doing itlong enough and there's so many
(37:11):
formulas.
A lot of them are just repeatsof other formulas.
It just comes down to quality atthat point.
Leah (37:16):
Yeah, and as we've talked about with any of these like
proprietary blends how much of aSomething is in there, you know,
like one of the formulas it saidlike cyanocobalamin, but I
didn't like look to see thelabel to be like how much b12
are you putting in there like
Tina (37:31):
Right.
Leah (37:32):
anyways, so Yeah, there's that
Tina (37:34):
Yeah.
Well, I will say you and I arenot easy to impress when it
comes to supplements though.
Leah (37:39):
No, and these whole powder things, you always hear me
complain.
It's, my big complaint is, whydo they always put so much stuff
in these powders?
Like, I'm looking for just likea greens powder.
I just want greens.
Because sometimes, I'm not, I'mnot gonna like blend my greens
and make a smoothie.
I just wanna throw powderedgreens in cause that's me.
And, they always have likeastragalus or um, ashwagandha,
(38:02):
like no, I don't want mushrooms,I don't want like, adaptogens.
I just want powdered greens.
Tina (38:08):
Yes.
Leah (38:10):
That's my big,
Tina (38:10):
But you're unusual.
Most people want other things inthere.
More is better.
What kind of American are you?
Leah (38:16):
I know and I, I'm just, just, I'm just lazy and I don't
want to always go out and get myfresh greens or like, you know,
whatever.
So, but it's not about me, it'sabout Elle.
So I guess that's kind of,that's kind of everything that
we, we got from her interview.
It was interesting.
Um, I do want to point out thatI feel that, as you mentioned in
(38:40):
the beginning, a lot of it washeadlines.
Tina (38:43):
Oh my God.
It's just, it's the same old,same old when it comes to
natural medicine and using plantmedicine.
And you know, if they can spinit into the negative zone and
maybe that's just media, maybethat's just always negative in
general, but I, it's been myentire career where if there's a
way to make it negative, they'regoing to do it.
So L.
McPherson is on the receivingend of that, unfortunately.
Leah (39:03):
And so are, so are NDs.
So I have never and will neverclaim to anybody that I can cure
their cancer.
My role has always been to besupportive using integrative
medicine.
Um, I thought it was in mylicense that I couldn't even
(39:25):
claim that.
I don't know if that changedover the years, but.
Tina (39:29):
Yeah,
Leah (39:30):
Because there are a lot of people out there who are, they
have claims, they on theirwebsite, they, they do say that
they treat and cure cancernaturally.
That is, I don't want thatresponsibility.
I don't have that knowledge todo that.
Tina (39:45):
I'm going to interject with anyone in an interview or
online or in any way, shape orform writes a book and uses the
word I, a doctor who treatscancer and says I this, I that,
I do this, I, you know, um, evenwhen I go to a lecture, I'll
notice this, that person hassuch an ego investment that I
don't trust their perspectivebecause they won't see their
(40:07):
failures, I, I, I, it's notabout the practitioner ever.
So anyone who's that vested inthe, in the.
So, the fact that they did it,they cured that person.
They didn't do anything.
I mean, they guided the person,they helped them, they taught
them.
But they can't say they did it.
if the patient is fortunateenough to not have cancer or
(40:28):
cancer recurrence, the patientdid it.
So, anyways.
It's a big red flag for me whenpeople start to do the research.
You know, I sentences big redflag means they're not probably
seeing anything in their worldwhere they didn't do well
Because the truth is nobodyknows you do your best and you
let the chips fall where they doAnd there's no way you can
control that and there's no wayyou can have 100 percent success
(40:50):
or 97 percent success for thatmatter It's not possible Because
we don't understand cancer wellenough and we don't understand
people well enough to curecancer on a regular basis.
I mean, if we could do that,we'd, you and I wouldn't be
sitting here doing a podcast.
We'd have a sanatorium on top ofa hill and do that.
Leah (41:05):
I know I used to tell my patients, if I, cause they would
say, well, you know, you donatural medicine, you know, big
pharma conspiracy, you know howto cure.
And I was like, if I had to carefor cancer, I would be handing
it out.
On street corners.
And that was before my parentswere diagnosed with cancer or
myself, you know, before I wasdiagnosed with cancer, I would
be giving it out for free as Ithink a lot of conventional
(41:29):
doctors would probably feel thatway too, because it's just,
it's, I'm going to getemotional.
Tina (41:35):
Oh, sure.
Yeah, you can't, you can't keepdown, you can't keep down the
human nature to help people.
I don't care.
I mean, yeah, I do think thatbig pharma slows us down.
No doubt.
No doubt.
Slows us down.
Because we would be a lotfarther along if we could study
our medicine on a more equalfooting and not just be about
(41:58):
pushing drugs and researchingthe drugs and
Leah (42:00):
Our medicine, like integrative medicine,
naturopathic medicine.
Yeah.
Tina (42:04):
integrative, yeah, naturopathic medicine.
If, if we had, if in an evidencebased world, um, we would have
more evidence if there were moreresearch dollars to go into it,
it's not that we're disproven.
Most of what we do, not all ofit, a lot of it has evidence,
but some of it is unprovensimply because we don't have the
evidence.
the means, the money, theinstitution, like Big Pharma has
(42:27):
behind it.
So it's, precision built intoeach ingredient.
Like in our minds, that'sprecisely for this.
That's precisely for that.
And so sometimes when there's.
mishmashes.
It's hard to dazzle.
It's hard to be like, okay,that's awesome.
Because one, we've been doing itlong enough and there's so many
formulas.
A lot of them are just repeatsof other formulas.
(42:47):
It just comes down to quality atthat point.
Leah (42:49):
Yeah, and as we've talked about with any of these like
proprietary blends how much of aSomething is in there, you know,
like one of the formulas it saidlike cyanocobalamin, but I
didn't like look to see thelabel to be like how much b12
are you putting in there like
Tina (43:04):
Right.
Leah (43:05):
anyways, so Yeah, there's that
Tina (43:08):
Yeah.
Well, I will say you and I arenot easy to impress when it
comes to supplements though.
Leah (43:13):
No, and these whole powder things, you always hear me
complain.
It's, my big complaint is, whydo they always put so much stuff
in these powders?
Like, I'm looking for just likea greens powder.
I just want greens.
Because sometimes, I'm not, I'mnot gonna like blend my greens
and make a smoothie.
I just wanna throw powderedgreens in cause that's me.
And, they always have likeastragalus or um, ashwagandha,
(43:36):
like no, I don't want mushrooms,I don't want like, adaptogens.
I just want powdered greens.
Tina (43:42):
Yes.
Leah (43:43):
That's my big,
Tina (43:44):
But you're unusual.
Most people want other things inthere.
More is better.
What kind of American are you?
Leah (43:50):
I know and I, I'm just, just, I'm just lazy and I don't
want to always go out and get myfresh greens or like, you know,
whatever.
So, but it's not about me, it'sabout Elle.
So I guess that's kind of,that's kind of everything that
we, we got from her interview.
It was interesting.
Um, I do want to point out thatI feel that, as you mentioned in
(44:13):
the beginning, a lot of it washeadlines.
Tina (44:16):
Oh my God.
It's just, it's the same old,same old when it comes to
natural medicine and using plantmedicine.
And you know, if they can spinit into the negative zone and
maybe that's just media, maybethat's just always negative in
general, but I, it's been myentire career where if there's a
way to make it negative, they'regoing to do it.
So L.
McPherson is on the receivingend of that, unfortunately.
Leah (44:37):
And so are, so are NDs.
So I have never and will neverclaim to anybody that I can cure
their cancer.
My role has always been to besupportive using integrative
medicine.
Um, I thought it was in mylicense that I couldn't even
(45:00):
claim that.
I don't know if that changedover the years, but.
Tina (45:03):
Yeah,
Leah (45:04):
Because there are a lot of people out there who are, they
have claims, they on theirwebsite, they, they do say that
they treat and cure cancernaturally.
That is, I don't want thatresponsibility.
I don't have that knowledge todo that.
Tina (45:19):
I'm going to interject with anyone in an interview or
online or in any way, shape orform writes a book and uses the
word I, a doctor who treatscancer and says I this, I that,
I do this, I, you know, um, evenwhen I go to a lecture, I'll
notice this, that person hassuch an ego investment that I
don't trust their perspectivebecause they won't see their
(45:41):
failures, I, I, I, it's notabout the practitioner ever.
So anyone who's that vested inthe, in the.
So, the fact that they did it,they cured that person.
They didn't do anything.
I mean, they guided the person,they helped them, they taught
them.
But they can't say they did it.
The patient, oh, if the patientis fortunate enough to not have
(46:03):
cancer or cancer recurrence, thepatient did it.
So, anyways.
It's a big red flag for me whenpeople start to do the research.
You know, I sentences big redflag means they're not probably
seeing anything in their worldwhere they didn't do well
Because the truth is nobodyknows you do your best and you
let the chips fall where they doAnd there's no way you can
(46:25):
control that and there's no wayyou can have 100 percent success
or 97 percent success for thatmatter It's not possible Because
we don't understand cancer wellenough and we don't understand
people well enough to curecancer on a regular basis.
I mean, if we could do that,we'd, you and I wouldn't be
sitting here doing a podcast.
We'd have a sanatorium on top ofa hill and do that.
Leah (46:43):
I know I used to tell my patients, if I, cause they would
say, well, you know, you donatural medicine, you know, big
pharma conspiracy, you know howto cure.
And I was like, if I had to carefor cancer, I would be handing
it out.
On street corners.
And that was before my parentswere diagnosed with cancer you
know, before I was diagnosedwith cancer, I would be giving
it out for free
Tina (47:04):
Oh, sure.
Yeah, you can't, you can't keepdown the human nature to help
people.
I don't care.
I mean, yeah, I do think thatbig pharma
Leah (47:13):
Thanks for listening to The Cancer Pod.
Remember to subscribe, review,and rate us wherever you get
your podcasts.
Follow us on social media forupdates.
And as always, this is notmedical advice.
These are our opinions.
Talk to your doctor beforechanging anything related to
your treatment plan.
The Cancer Pod is hosted by me,Dr.
(47:34):
Leah Sherman, and by Dr.
Tina Kazer.
Music is by Kevin MacLeod.
See you next time.
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