October 2, 2024 • 36 mins
Move over "sitting" there's a "new smoking" in town. In this episode, Tina and Leah discuss the latest data on pesticides and cancer risk. One recent study showed the numbers look just as bad (and yes, society's denial of them just as strong) as the data on smoking and cancer risk from decades ago. The doctors share practical tips for minimizing exposure and suggest ways to minimize the effects of pesticide exposures that are nearly inevitable. Hey, we know this topic can be a bummer and a major inconvenience. That said, it's best to know the data to make healthy decisions for yourself. Societal changes may be slow, but there is plenty you can do while we wait for our society to make necessary changes for a less toxic world in general. Join us, we promise not to bum you out!
Pesticides are the new smoking; 69 pesticides named as carcinogenic
A more reader friendly version of the technical paper on pesticides and cancer risk
The Medscape article that spurred our discussion
Human Cancers: Known causes and prevention by organ site (IARC)
Environmental Working Group (EWG) guide on lowering intake of pesticides
Kristina Marusic, Environmental Health Journalist episode
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leah (00:00):
Tina.
Tina (00:01):
Leah
Leah (00:02):
did you hear that there's a new smoking?
Tina (00:05):
Yes.
Well, sitting is the newsmoking, but that's not what
you're talking about.
Leah (00:09):
Sitting was the new smoking and now there's a new
now there's a new sitting.
I can't keep up with it.
First, there was the originalsmoking.
Tina (00:20):
Which is bad for multiple systems.
Lung cancer was the big reasonin our world of cancer care, but
many other cancers, breastcancer,
Leah (00:28):
And other health issues, right?
Heart disease, lung disease, Imean, you know, secondhand
smoke, thirdhand smoke, all ofthose were found to be bad for
people.
Tina (00:38):
Yes.
And the data was very clear thatwe have had a, an improvement
when people stopped smoking somuch.
We've had improvements in all ofthose.
Chronic diseases
Leah (00:47):
Right.
So, we all know smoking is badfor you.
And then, how many years ago wasit that we learned sitting was
bad for you?
Tina (00:54):
sitting is the new smoking was kind of a big deal in 2010.
So it's 14 years ago now.
Leah (00:58):
Yeah, so it's kind of passé.
So the whole thing with that wasthat people who were sitting at
their desk on their job foreight hours plus
Tina (01:09):
Mm hmm.
Leah (01:10):
had an increased risk of chronic diseases, including the
increased risk of cancer.
Tina (01:17):
Yeah, colorectal cancers breast cancer Prostate cancer
there was data on many cancersand an increased risk with
prolonged sedentary periods,prolonged sitting how much is
too much sitting and beingsedentary.
It's a little bit of a movingtarget.
Certainly anything over sixhours in the data looks like
it's starting to show increasedrisk.
(01:38):
So getting up and moving.
Even if you have a desk job,making sure that you move, you
take your breaks, you, keepmoving.
You were mentioning squats offthe radio here.
Leah (01:48):
Off the radio.
Offline.
Tina (01:50):
Offline.
Leah (01:52):
There was an article that I had read that if you work a
desk job or any job where youare sitting most of the day, if
you stand up every 30 minutesand do some squats, there was a
period of time you were supposedto do the squats.
I don't remember if it was 30seconds of squats.
I can't remember.
But if you just stand up, move,do some squats, Set an alarm on
your phone, whatever, that wassupposed to be good.
(02:13):
What was interesting is that ifpeople had sedentary jobs and
then we're like these weekendworkout warriors, that didn't
really show any benefit.
Tina (02:23):
Right.
Cause it has to be movement on adaily basis, but that's why we
have, what's very popular now isstanding desks or desks that are
used over a treadmill wherepeople are actually walking
during their meeting they'lljust have a computer over their
treadmill, a little stand there.
Leah (02:39):
It works for people who, yeah, work from home or, you
know, attend meetings over zoom,which I guess is more popular
now, but it doesn't work foreverybody.
Tina (02:48):
I have a.
stationary bicycle desk, whichis gathering dust as we speak,
because you know what I can't dowhen I'm biking is type.
I don't go to a lot of meetings.
I type a lot and I do a lot oflike engaged activity on my
computer like that.
And so it's a great idea though.
I mean, it might work for otherfolks.
I've seen those where there'slike a little pedal,
Leah (03:09):
Or, you know, pedals underneath the desk.
Um, but yeah, I think I wouldhave a hard time multitasking.
I can't even read while walkingon a treadmill.
I watch TV because that way I'mnot really doing anything.
Tina (03:21):
right, right.
I want to get a balance boardfor my standing desk.
So I have a desk, you know, thatis standing.
I can adjust it up and down.
I want to get a balance boardjust to do something while I'm
standing there.
Leah (03:34):
Well, while you're standing every 30 minutes, do
some squats.
Tina (03:37):
I probably do do that quite a bit.
Actually, I do intentionallymove around because I don't want
my joints all getting all stiff.
I am in my 50s.
So you know, got to keep myflexibility and squat down quite
a bit just to keep limber.
Leah (03:50):
Use it or lose it as they say.
Tina (03:56):
I'm Dr Tina Kaczor and as Leah likes to say I'm the
science-y one
Leah (04:00):
and I'm Dr Leah Sherman and on the cancer inside
Tina (04:03):
And we're two naturopathic doctors who practice integrative
cancer care
Leah (04:07):
But we're not your doctors
Tina (04:09):
This is for education entertainment and informational
purposes only do not apply anyof this information
Leah (04:16):
without first speaking to your doctor
Tina (04:18):
The views and opinions expressed on this podcast by the
hosts and their guests aresolely their own
Leah (04:24):
Welcome to the cancer pod So, so there is a, there is a
(04:45):
new smoking and a new sitting.
And we both saw the article likeat the same time, pretty much it
came out in Medscape.
Tina (04:54):
you want a drumroll?
Leah (04:55):
We need a drumroll.
We're going to insert a drumrollhere.
It's pesticides.
Tina (05:00):
Pesticide, which we in our profession as naturopathic docs
and naturopaths around theworld, whether they're
physicians or what they callbarefoot naturopaths, you know,
lay naturopaths around theworld.
We have quite a few listenersout in Australia.
Hello, Australia.
Um, we are all against thesethings.
Pesticides, right?
(05:21):
I mean, this is not somethingthat's.
Going to be new for us and ourrecommendations.
I think that the headlinehopefully will motivate more
people to make the change awayfrom exposures if they can.
Leah (05:33):
Yeah.
And the biggest exposure comesfrom people who work around
them.
So whether it's a landscaper,home gardener, it's people who
live in farming communities,whether they work on the farm.
Directly or just live in thecommunity.
Tina (05:48):
well in this piece that you and I read from Medscape,
which was basically a, a newsbriefing on a study that
happened.
So it was a breakdown of thatstudy and how.
Pesticides are the new smoking.
The Midwest has higher rates inthe United States.
And that is where there's animmense amount of pesticide
usage for Big Ag.
Leah (06:10):
and the article specifically mentioned corn.
The states in the study that thearticle discussed were Iowa,
Illinois, Nebraska, Missouri,Indiana, and Ohio and Florida
because there is an ag componentdown there in Florida.
I mean, Indiana.
So much corn.
So much corn.
Tina (06:29):
I didn't realize there was that much agriculture in
Florida.
I, I, I thought maybe it wasmore like, uh, well, I guess it
would be, huh?
I bet I was thinking it was morelike manicured and landscaped
areas.
You know, they got to keep thecritters out.
Hmm.
Mm
Leah (06:42):
it's pretty surprising, um, driving in between, you
know, South Florida and thengoing a bit north.
Um, my dad is buried in a, um,military cemetery.
I don't know.
It's not quite central Florida,but yeah, no, there's tons of
agriculture out there betweendriving from, you know, Pompano
beach and heading up towardsLake Worth.
(07:03):
It's yeah.
Tina (07:05):
Yeah.
Well, and.
Like you mentioned, occupationalexposures for farmers, I mean,
that's kind of been a rumblingfor decades in the data and I
think that has been looked atbecause occupational exposures
are something that are looked atspecifically because it's such a
high exposure probably more thananyone else is going to be
exposed and more, consistentlyexposed.
(07:26):
The whole communities are beingaffected because there's also
spray through aerial sprayersthat then go into the land, that
then seeps into their watertables that they then drink from
their wells
Leah (07:36):
Right.
Tina (07:37):
Not to mention just aerial sprays not being very specific.
Leah (07:40):
Oh, for sure.
And then I think I've mentionedon another episode, but I
remember having.
A patient who talked about whenthey were a kid running behind
like the, the bug spray,whatever was, was being sprayed.
Tina (07:54):
It was DDT based then.
Yeah.
I was gonna say I don't knowwhat they're using today.
Leah (07:59):
and I don't know if they still have those trucks that
like blast things.
Tina (08:02):
they're spraying communities because of the
mosquitoes in certaincommunities Yeah, I don't know
what they're using
Leah (08:08):
so I want to kind of define pesticides.
Cause I think when we think ofpesticides.
Um, we just think of likeinsects, you know, but I did
look up to see what wasconsidered a pesticide in
agriculture and it includesherbicides and fungicides and
insecticides.
And so the, Definition that Ifound said that they're
chemicals designed to eliminateand control animal and plant
life that can adversely affectagriculture or domestic life.
(08:29):
So it's kind of all lumpedtogether.
So when I typically think ofpesticide, I'm just thinking of
like the stuff you spray to getrid of ants or whatever, but
it's, it also includes theherbicides and fungicides that
are used.
Tina (08:41):
Yeah.
And the amount that is used, ohgosh, I forgot the amount.
It was a lot.
I want to say Roundup orglyphosate alone was like, 188
million tons or some, some like,I'm going to look at it.
I'm going to look at this upcause I just looked it up before
we started talking.
And it was the amounts we'retalking about that are put on
(09:02):
our crops.
Mind blowing.
All right, here we go.
From 2012 to 2016, approximately281 million pounds of
glyphosate, and that's Roundup,were applied to just under 300
million acres annually onaverage.
Soybeans get the most, 117million pounds, corn, 94.
(09:23):
9 million pounds, and cotton, 20million pounds.
And it just goes on and on.
It says the Midwest region ofthe United States used about 65
percent of the nation's totalglyphosate in 2016.
Um, and its use has increaseddramatically since its
introduction in 1996.
And the reason we introduced itin case anyone wants to know
(09:44):
that history is because wegenetically engineered plants
that could handle it.
so.
Because the plants can handleit, we can pour more of it on
there and they survive it.
Leah (09:52):
Right.
And that's the roundup is likeweed killer.
It's like what people spray intheir, on their lawns or, you
know, their xeriscaping orwhatever.
It's yeah, it's weed killer.
Tina (10:03):
Yeah, sorry to say, glyphosate is more of a weed
killer than a pesticide.
I always put pesticides andherbicides as, like, one in my
brain.
Leah (10:09):
No, no, but it is.
No, that's what that was.
The definition was an herbicideis included as a pesticide,
Tina (10:16):
Oh, okay.
Leah (10:17):
according to the definition that I found.
So no, it counts.
It does count.
Um, I, again, forgive me if Irepeat myself, but when I flew
out to interview for theresidency in Indiana, I check
into the hotel, I put on the TV,and the first thing I saw was a
Roundup commercial.
I mean, there were so manycommercials, like, on that
(10:40):
visit.
I saw a lot of Roundup beingadvertised, and I mean, I'm
like, so sketched out byRoundup.
You know, it's been with mydogs, right?
Walking around the neighborhood,you see like, somebody spraying
something, and I'm like, youknow, reminding myself, don't go
to that.
Lawn until, you know, at least,I don't know how long it's bad,
but, you know, at least untilit's dry several days, I'm sure,
(11:01):
but,
Tina (11:01):
And the issue with glyphosate specifically is it's
very close to the amino acidglycine.
And there is evidence showingthat it might be able to be
integrated into places that thenatural amino acid glycine
should be.
And when glyphosate getsintegrated in, instead of
glycine, that monkeys up withthe tissue that it's being used
in.
And glycine's used in tissuesthroughout the body, but the
(11:25):
most, um, kind of glaring effectis in animals and in horses on
their connective tissue.
It weakens their connectivetissue.
And so, It leaves me wondering Imean, we're getting way more
injuries than we used to have inyoung people doing sports.
it leaves this big question markin my brain that I think to
myself, is it maybe weakened?
(11:46):
tendons and ligaments, becausethis is the world we live in
now.
I mean, unless you were broughtup 100 percent organic from day
one and, and live away fromthese communities.
Leah (11:55):
And live in a bubble, a hundred percent organic.
And you live in a bubble whereyou're not exposed to anything.
Um, and the, the big thing,speaking of commercials, you
know, there are tons of ads thatI have been bombarded with
probably because I'm searchingfor certain keywords, but you
know, the increased risk of,Lymphoma non Hodgkin's lymphoma
(12:17):
from glyphosate exposure andseveral people have won
lawsuits.
so yeah, and those arelandscapers or, you know, people
who are around it all the time.
Tina (12:26):
Yeah, and that's just one of, how many was in that study?
Was there 69 different chemicalcompounds that were in that one
study that we're talking about?
the Medscape article,Comprehensive Assessment of
Pesticide Use Patterns andIncreased Cancer Risk.
That's the name of the article.
Okay.
Yeah, it is 69 pesticides intheir table, 69 pesticides of
agricultural interest that aremonitored by the U.
(12:48):
S.
Department of Agriculture andare reported by county that were
included in this study.
So there's way more thanglyphosate, um, The findings
from this paper saw there was anassociation between pesticide
use and increased incidence of,I'm just going to give you them
all, leukemia, non Hodgkin'slymphoma, bladder cancer, colon
cancer, lung cancer, pancreaticcancer, and cancers combined,
(13:10):
that are comparable to smokingfor some of those cancers.
So that's why we're sayingpesticide exposures are the new
smoking.
Because the risk is the same asif you were smoking.
Leah (13:20):
yeah.
And it pointed out thatpesticides contributed to a
higher risk for cancer thansmoking in certain cases.
Um, and then with non Hodgkin'slymphoma.
Pesticides were linked to 154percent more cases than smoking.
Tina (13:35):
Wow.
Leah (13:36):
And they accounted for smoking.
they accounted for, um, youknow, environmental factors as
well that can contribute tocancer.
So they kind of looked at a lotof stuff.
Tina (13:48):
So one of the issues, and not to be a big downer, but the
issue is that these pesticidesare used on almost all of our
crops.
It said in 2021, 96% of the 93.4million acres of corn planted in
the United States, herbicideswere used, pesticides,
herbicides, 96% of all of it.
And so it's ubiquitous.
Leah (14:10):
Yeah, and you know, one of the reasons why pesticides are
used is because it does increaseyields.
And so in, you know, this isglobal, this isn't just the U S
and so across the world wherethere are, concerns with people
getting enough food, the use ofpesticides has increased yields.
And so, there is that benefitbecause organic farms that don't
(14:32):
use pesticides.
Have up to 50 percent loweryields.
And organic farms will usechemicals that are natural.
There's still chemicals, butthey are natural.
as opposed to the syntheticpesticides and those tend to
break down, more rapidly, um,there still is risk, you know,
of.
Causing health issues.
(14:53):
If you're exposed to thesenatural, um, pesticides, they
also use other methods like,netting crops and, uh, planting,
you know, what's it called?
I want to say symbioticplanting.
I can't remember the word, butyou're planting.
Yeah.
You're planting, you know,different things to kind of.
deter pests, you know, from,from your plant and rotating
(15:18):
crops, all of that, like yourotate your crops.
And so if you're always plantingyour cruciferous vegetables in
the same area, you're going tobe more prone to getting those
types of pests and diseasesthat, you know, stick with them.
So you know, there, there areall of these things that you can
do.
It's just, you're not going tobe able to mass produce for an
entire country.
Tina (15:37):
that was the key word, mass production.
I agree with everything you'vesaid.
And we have to remember thatmost of that corn that we're
growing is not to be eaten.
Most of that corn that we'regrowing is, is for feed and for
fuel.
So do we need however million,acres for corn to, I mean, in a
idealistic society, people wouldhave gardens again.
(15:59):
You know, we would have Gardensand grow some food locally or
have farmer's markets.
All this is growing.
I'm actually really encouragedwith our current trends in
society because people are moreaware of this.
So there's local farmers,there's local farmers markets.
Um, buying from small vendors isgoing to be helpful because
local foods are going to becleaner.
(16:19):
That's all there is to it.
Leah (16:21):
They're, but they're still using these pesticides because
I've tried to grow apples Wehave a really old apple tree out
front It's so hard and you knowpeople want a pretty apple They
don't want a wormhole in anapple that you have to cut
around.
It's really hard to grow apples
Tina (16:39):
I didn't think so.
I had apple trees in Eugene.
We got really nice apples.
I sprayed it with sulfur.
Leah (16:45):
Oh, see, I haven't sprayed mine with anything.
I tried doing the um, puttingthe little stockings around them
and that didn't really help
Tina (16:51):
Sulfur's a nasty, one day, stinky job that you just, you
know, put it on the hose andspray the bejeebies out of it,
but it does work for a coupleyears in a row.
Leah (17:00):
Yeah, I need to do that.
And then also we have rust,which is, I think it's a kind of
a fungus that comes from thejuniper trees that are around.
Tina (17:08):
And neem.
Leah (17:09):
oh yeah, I've used neem before, but yeah, you have to be
more diligent.
It's a lot more work.
Tina (17:14):
do.
Well,
Leah (17:15):
work, Tina.
Tina (17:16):
I know but my point, maybe that's part of the point Maybe
we should go back to a littlebit more of that
Leah (17:21):
Then, then we wouldn't be sitting so
Tina (17:22):
exactly we got to be getting up anyways But it is
true I mean think about that Imean if you if you do have space
to grow food it does Forced youto go out and put your hands in
the soil and some of those soilorganisms aren't such a bad
thing either, organic soil,fresh food, you know, greens, I
(17:45):
think are like the intro toeverything because you can grow
greens, they, you clip them andthey grow right back.
Leah (17:50):
Well, the thing with greens is you can grow them if
you live in an apartment andhave a sunny window.
You can grow greens.
You know, they don't wantextremes and temperatures.
They kind of like things alittle cool, so you can just get
a little, you know, window box,even on the inside and, and try
to grow some greens.
Or, my favorite thing is toregrow food that you've already
(18:12):
used.
And so if you use.
Spring or green onion and youcut it down and there's still
some white part left you stickthat in some water You know, you
can like regrow food and thenreuse the green part will
continue to grow And you justsnip that and keep using it You
know, I guess it's easier ifit's just like one or two people
if it's a whole family It doesget to be a little harder to
(18:35):
grow that much food
Tina (18:36):
sure.
I totally agree with that.
I just, I think big ag is a bigproblem in the United States.
It's an industry.
It has created an industry andit's highly subsidized.
Um, which means that we prop itup, and it's not healthy.
Leah (18:50):
Which we've talked about and I know we've talked about
this in other episodes You know,especially with corn and soy
Tina (18:58):
Yeah.
And I'm not here to political.
It's not about that.
It's about the health of the endproduct.
Right.
And so we're creating marketsfor these by products because we
are destined to grow that much.
Um, and these aren't familyfarms I'm talking about.
I'm talking about agriculturalbusinesses.
These are gigantic.
I mean, there's big pharma.
There's big ag too.
(19:19):
Yeah.
Leah (19:19):
Right.
Monocrops, like huge, likemonocrops and stuff.
And I know they do rotate.
Cause I have seen that whereit's like, they plant the corn
and then they then they plantthe soy and then they plant the
corn and then they plant thesoy, but you're just doing these
two major, like pesticide heavycrops.
Tina (19:35):
Yeah, I think we have to look at ourselves as part of a
very large ecosystem.
And we are just one organism ofmany, of millions.
And so when we monocrop millionsof acres at once, um, what that
does to the soil, what that doesto the air quality, what that
does to our ingestion of thesechemicals that we're talking
about today.
(19:55):
I don't think it's how we'remeant to do it.
To exist.
I think we're meant to existmore in harmony with our
surroundings than that.
But that's philosophical, Isuppose.
That's a naturopathic point ofview, Right.
Yeah,
Leah (20:08):
it's an ideal point of view, but the reality of the
population of the world, becauseagain, I'm not just thinking of
the U S but just the populationof the world, um, and different
circumstances in which peoplelive different environments, it
does make it harder.
To do that.
So, you know, you're living in adesert where are you getting
your food from?
(20:29):
I did not.
Now I'm thinking Arizona,there's a lot of agriculture in
Arizona, which is so surprisingbecause it is a desert and they
bring that water in.
Tina (20:38):
that's a whole, I mean, I am idealistic.
You're right, because I don'tthink we should be growing most
of our crops in desert climates.
I just don't.
I think that that was a bad ideain the first place But that's
what I mean by big ag.
I think that if it shrank downand you did different model of
agriculture, we would be, wewould probably have more water.
Leah (20:56):
And other people would have less money in their
pockets.
Tina (20:59):
Yeah, there's that.
I think that a lot of it, whenit became Big Ag as in capital
B, capital A in a big business,then it's all about the money.
It's not about the product orthe health.
Leah (21:10):
It's not about the health.
Yeah.
It's not about the health of, aswe learned from smoking when it
came out, that there werestudies initially that showed
that smoking was bad for you.
And those had been suppressed.
Tina (21:23):
Yeah, and you know, you said you're thinking about the
whole world.
You know, we in the UnitedStates, we do allow more
toxicity in our crops than othercountries do.
chemicals that are banned ordiscouraged in Europe.
And it's unfortunate, but that'sjust the way it is right now.
Um, I did go to the EPA websiteand look at how they classify
(21:46):
carcinogenic pesticides andherbicides.
It's fairly convoluted, and whatthey don't do is give you a
list.
They don't give you a list oftheir findings.
They do have a system, just likethe World Health Organization
does, of ranking the likelycarcinogenic potential of
various compounds.
They did say that if we testedit a while ago, we're not going
to retest it because ourresources are limited.
(22:08):
so even though we have bettermeans of testing it now, we're
not going to redo anything thatwas old.
Leah (22:14):
Is that the international Agency for Research on Cancer?
Is that who,
Tina (22:18):
That's the WHO group that, that has the classic, monographs
on carcinogens.
I'm talking about the EPA.
The EPA does something similar,but they're nowhere near as
transparent with theinformation.
As a matter of fact, instead ofputting the name of the
pesticide, they just put Onecomma four dash pesticide
instead of the the proper name.
(22:38):
Yeah, instead of saying one fororganochlorine or whatever
people are searching for.
So I feel like it's a littlebit, um, Opaque, but what can we
do about all this?
That's the question.
I guess, you know withoutharping on how bad it is We
probably should talk about whatwe recommend people do.
Leah (22:56):
Well, I think the first thing is if somebody is not able
to purchase organic to make surethat when you do purchase your
fruits and vegetables, washthem.
Tina (23:08):
And, I think you've brought this up before, the
Environmental Working Group cangive you some prioritizing of
which ones are the worstculprits when it comes to
pesticide laden fruits andvegetables.
Leah (23:19):
Right, the, the soft skinned, um, berries and fruits,
that sort of thing.
But if that's right, but ifthat's your only option, wash
them.
I mean, I don't know how manytimes, I mean, I know organic
berries are sprayed and I don'tknow how many times I'll just be
like, Ooh, berries.
And I'll just start eating thembefore washing them.
And I'm guilty of that myself.
(23:39):
Um, I don't know if it has anyeffect.
One thing I started doing withmy berries is I wash them with a
little bit of vinegar.
Vinegar and that's mostly justto kind of keep them from going
bad because organic berries gobad so quickly Um, they turn
really fast And so I had readsomewhere that if you add a
little vinegar to your yourrinse water, it helps to keep
(24:00):
berries fresh longer.
Tina (24:02):
Does it work?
Leah (24:02):
it seems to work.
Yeah, absolutely I don't know ifit's doing anything, you know,
in terms of washing off anyresidue, but you know, peel your
fruits.
If, if you have an apple, ifyou're concerned about this,
then peel your apples.
Um, if they're not organic, Iknow probably, I'm going to just
guess the majority of people wholisten to us might not be able
(24:24):
to afford all organic all thetime.
Um, I know when I am in theMidwest, it's not always
available.
Tina (24:32):
hmm.
Leah (24:33):
And so it's like, I don't stress about it.
I just make sure that I wash thefoods and, you know, my
preference is to have somethingorganic.
I am in a position where thatcan be like, You know, priority
on my grocery list, but I knowit isn't for everybody.
Tina (24:49):
Right.
Right.
Leah (24:50):
you also have to think that when you're eating those
berries, even if they're notorganic, you're still getting
health benefits from them.
You know, just maybe if you'renot able to eat organic, then
try not to use those pesticidesin your garden or something, try
to reduce those exposures, otherplaces in your life.
Tina (25:07):
Right.
Being mindful.
First of all, don't use them,right?
I mean, if you must use them,take full precautions not to
ingest through your inhalationroute or your skin or even your
eyes.
Take full precautions if yourjob requires you to use them,
that kind of thing.
Don't take those precautionslightly.
I mean, yeah, just avoid them.
I mean, Home Depot has animmense number of pesticides and
(25:31):
herbicides.
So I know people are still usingthem at home quite a bit, right?
There are natural alternativesto some of these things.
I mean, for me, I have, I haveto take out these gnarly little
weeds that get in my dog's paws.
They're, they're hard.
They're in the high desert.
we try to hit that with 20 or 30percent vinegar to defoliate
(25:52):
them.
And then once they're Theydefoliate after a day or two.
Then we come back with a torchand light all this, all of it on
fire.
Leah (26:00):
yeah, I mean, there are, there are definitely things that
people can do around the houseto kind of lessen that.
I think one of the things is ifwe get away from these manicured
lawns.
That are so like, it's soingrained in our society to have
these beautiful green manicuredlawns and you go out and you mow
them and they're just perfect.
And there are no weeds.
I mean, if I'm looking out at myyard right now, it's well, it's
(26:24):
Portland.
And so this time of year, nobodywaters anything or very few
people water.
So it's like dead grass, butthen I have my vegetable
gardens, you know?
Tina (26:32):
And can I share that your, one of your vegetable gardens is
on your front lawn.
Leah (26:36):
They both are.
Both of my vegetable gardens areon my front lawn because if they
were on the back lawn, the dogswould eat them.
Um, would eat them.
It would be hard to get the dogsout.
And we get more sun in thefront.
And so, yeah.
No.
That's.
It's always been that way.
We had a house when we lived inSoutheast Portland where the
side garden was this likebeautiful manicured, like
(26:58):
English garden when I moved in.
And by the time I was done withit, there were, I think at least
three garden beds and a chickencoop.
You know, in this like niceneighborhood that we were living
in.
So, yeah, I mean, I know that itlooks really pretty to have this
gorgeous manicured lawn, butyou're not helping anybody.
(27:19):
You can't eat it.
You know, we just had, we justcame out of this like huge, like
lockdown situation where it waslike, it was hard to get food,
start growing it.
If you have the ability, if youhave the ability, if you live in
an apartment building andthere's a, a community garden,
you know, like try to grow yourown food.
Tina (27:36):
it's interesting.
Cause it's really just a changeof mindset Right.
Because I think we tend to dowhatever is culturally the norm
in our area.
And I've driven across the U S afew times and I, it's right when
I hit the Midwest that I startto see the large lawns and then
it continues all the waythrough, uh, you know, I'll go
all the way to the east and, uh,you know, we're, we're talking
(27:57):
riding tractors are required,right?
These are big lawns.
Leah (28:00):
And you see that out here too, though, in Portland, you
know, in the, in certainneighborhoods there, you know,
that is kind of the thing too.
I think the front yard garden inmy neighborhood is the norm.
Tina (28:10):
Mm hmm.
Interesting.
Yeah.
So I'm saying that because Ithink there is a cultural aspect
to this and I'm talking likeregional sub regional town down
to the zip code.
Right?
Like, this is like, what dopeople do in your area?
Yeah.
There is a movement.
I saw this on, I don't knowwhere Facebook or something put
up pictures about how peoplewere, um, taking their lawn out
and putting in meadows andgardens.
(28:34):
And a lot of it was to keep thebees coming and to feed
hummingbirds and things likethat.
But there's no reason you can'tdo that and feed yourself.
That was kind of a neatmovement.
I see it going on in severalneighborhoods in Texas.
Like Indiana and, uh, Iowa andstuff.
So that was that, that wasencouraging.
That's kind of cool to see.
Leah (28:54):
Yeah.
And when I was living inIndiana, there were certain
areas that were kind of thesefields where they would mow
them.
And that's kind of where youwould walk your dog.
I noticed the last time I livedthere, they weren't mowing them
and they would mow a certainarea and then they would allow
the wildflowers and you know,the meadows to kind of flourish.
And that's kind of nice.
(29:15):
It's pretty.
And that's something I do wantto do here as well.
And, um, I'm trying to do up atour cabin, you know, to, we have
an expanse of grass and I'mtrying to let part of that go
wild.
We're getting like Elk kind ofnesting overnight in there.
I mean, it's like you'reattracting more wildlife, which
is so cool I mean you find theirpoop everywhere.
(29:37):
That was an issue, but you know,it's still it's you know Sharing
sharing with the wildlife.
Tina (29:42):
Yeah.
I was going to say, technicallythey were there first, so,
Leah (29:45):
That is true.
That is true
Tina (29:48):
so it's good to share.
Leah (29:50):
So I think If people want more information on actionable
things they can do.
we did that interview withChristina The environmental, um,
journalist..
And so go check that episodeout.
We'll put a link for her and gether book.
Cause she talks about a lotabout this, about, you know, the
(30:11):
different areas across the U Sand the, not just pesticide
exposure, but just overallexposures and health risks.
Tina (30:17):
Yes, yeah, I want to make sure that I know we say this in
a lot of episodes, but I don'tfeel like we said this in any
recent episode.
Um, once you ingest somethingand you will, because this is
the world we live in, you willhave chemicals coming in,
whether you breathe them in, orthey contact your skin or
they're on your food or in yourfood.
there's four routes out thebody.
(30:38):
So you just have to keep thoseelimination pathways wide open.
And that is.
Your sweat, your breath, yoururine, and your stool four ways
out the body.
So keep them all healthy andRegular, right?
this might be one of the reasonsexercise is really good for us
because it increases All ofthose it increases blood flow,
(31:01):
which is it increases ourkidneys ability to filter the
blood and it keeps you regularYou breathe deeper and it makes
you sweat You can't hear it toomany times.
Leah (31:11):
And you're also increasing your muscle mass and lessening
your fat mass and fat mass tendsto hold onto all of these
chemicals.
Tina (31:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
We didn't even talk about that,but that's one of the reasons.
Sometimes when people loseweight really quickly, they
don't feel well.
and often you're liberatingchemical compounds that have
been stored in the fat becausethat is usually where they go is
they get stored away in your fattissue.
so your adipose cells or yourfat cells, actually, that's
where they're soluble.
(31:39):
That's where they get stored.
And so as those shrink, Youliberate these compounds
sometimes.
So, so a rapid weight loss canmake people feel a little funky
sometimes.
And I think fasting sometimeshas that, you know, when people
do extended fasts.
Leah (31:52):
There's so much going on when people fast that it's hard
to say like, that's what this isfrom.
Um, we're not promoting thatpeople do those detoxes that are
all over social media, you know,drinking these crazy smoothies
and whatnot.
That's not really.
Tina (32:07):
No, I think there's a book out there or I don't know if
it's a recipe book.
I think it's called EverydayDetox.
It's a decent book about howyour body eliminates chemical
compounds.
I have it somewhere on my
Leah (32:17):
But I just don't want people going out and buying
like, you know, detox formulapowders, pills, capsules, making
like crazy smoothies that peopleare coming up with on, on the
TikTok.
Like that's not necessary.
drink your filtered water andeat your fiber.
Make sure that you're poopingand peeing and, you know, sweat
a little.
Tina (32:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And if anything, avoidance isfirst because you're going to
get exposed regardless.
So avoiding them as much aspossible is the number one thing
that we can do.
And that means takingprecautions.
I mean, I do think that we, meincluded, there are times that I
should take more precaution thanI do.
Right.
You should wear a respiratormask when you're using certain
paints and that kind of thing.
And you think, Oh, it's onlygonna take me 10 minutes.
(32:59):
And you just quickly do it.
I do it if it's exposure for along time, of course, but
there's times that we all dothat, right?
Leah (33:05):
Yeah, and working in a cancer center in the Midwest and
talking to people who work inagriculture, whether they're
farmers or, you know, whateverthey're doing, always checking
to make sure that they werewearing respirators.
Are those provided to you?
Yeah, but it's too hot to Youknow, I heard that, but that was
more, you know, the RV industrythat, people weren't wearing
(33:28):
protective gear.
If you need to use.
Pesticides or any chemicals,make sure that you are being
safe, you know, wearingprotective gear for yourself
because maybe you're thinkinglike, well, these small
exposures, it's not, it's notgoing to make or break me.
No, but think about the peoplewho are growing and harvesting
(33:48):
this food and have greaterexposures and people who live in
the areas around these farms.
greater exposures.
And so that's, that's a bigconcern, you know, that's
because we will get somepushback I know, because there,
you know, the thought that thesesmall exposures don't matter.
(34:09):
But over time, it's not just thefood that we're eating.
It's the air that we'rebreathing.
We talked about microplastics.
I mean, so that's what I mean.
Like, you're like, you're justconstantly, it's like you might
try to live as clean and healthyas possible.
And you might have some peopledown the street who are burning
their trash.
Tina (34:29):
Yeah.
Yeah.
This is, this is why we controlthe variables we have control
over, but don't sweat the restof it.
try to control your ownenvironment as best you can.
Leah (34:38):
So I don't want people to get all super paranoid and start
stressing out because then we'regoing to find out that stress is
the new smoking and so, youknow, so
Tina (34:48):
No, it's a valid point.
Totally agree.
Yes.
Leah (34:52):
You know, it's just it's it's being aware doing what you
can to lessen not only yourexposure but other people's
exposure.
If you're like, well, I'm kindof sick of spending every Sunday
mowing my lawn, make it ameadow.
I know if you live in an HOAthat's not going to happen,
Tina (35:09):
No.
Leah (35:10):
but you know, I don't know what to tell you then.
Tina (35:14):
I know.
I know.
There's true challenges.
And this is why I say it's alittle bit of a cultural thing.
So I'm excited and encouragedwhen I see these counterculture
neighborhoods going and saying,you know what, we're just going
to start planning a meadow.
And it's okay.
We all like our meadow, youknow, so like a little more
respect for the naturalenvironment that's being kind of
adopted out there.
I think, I think that's thedirection we're headed in
(35:35):
anyways.
a lot of what we talked abouttoday, you and I already knew.
And so, yeah, it's, there mightbe a slight underestimation of
how kind of negative it is.
it's just something that we'velived with for our entire
careers at the very least, aknowledge of this.
Pesticide being horrible andpossibly carcinogenic, many of
them.
(35:56):
so yeah, I hope we weren't toonegative on this one.
Leah (35:59):
I know.
On that note, I'm Dr.
Leia Sherman
Tina (36:02):
And I'm Dr.
Tina Kaczor.
Leah (36:04):
and this is The Cancer Pod.
Tina (36:05):
Until next time.
Thanks for listening to TheCancer Pod.
Remember to subscribe, review,and rate us wherever you get
your podcasts.
Follow us on social media forupdates.
And as always, this is notmedical advice.
These are our opinions.
Talk to your doctor beforechanging anything related to
your treatment plan.
The Cancer Pod is hosted by me,Dr.
(36:26):
Leah Sherman, and by Dr.
Tina Kaczor.
Music is by Kevin MacLeod.
See you next time.
Tina.
Tina (00:01):
Leah
Leah (00:02):
did you hear that there's a new smoking?
Tina (00:05):
Yes.
Well, sitting is the newsmoking, but that's not what
you're talking about.
Leah (00:09):
Sitting was the new smoking and now there's a new
now there's a new sitting.
I can't keep up with it.
First, there was the originalsmoking.
Tina (00:20):
Which is bad for multiple systems.
Lung cancer was the big reasonin our world of cancer care, but
many other cancers, breastcancer,
Leah (00:28):
And other health issues, right?
Heart disease, lung disease, Imean, you know, secondhand
smoke, thirdhand smoke, all ofthose were found to be bad for
people.
Tina (00:38):
Yes.
And the data was very clear thatwe have had a, an improvement
when people stopped smoking somuch.
We've had improvements in all ofthose.
Chronic diseases
Leah (00:47):
Right.
So, we all know smoking is badfor you.
And then, how many years ago wasit that we learned sitting was
bad for you?
Tina (00:54):
sitting is the new smoking was kind of a big deal in 2010.
So it's 14 years ago now.
Leah (00:58):
Yeah, so it's kind of passé.
So the whole thing with that wasthat people who were sitting at
their desk on their job foreight hours plus
Tina (01:09):
Mm hmm.
Leah (01:10):
had an increased risk of chronic diseases, including the
increased risk of cancer.
Tina (01:17):
Yeah, colorectal cancers breast cancer Prostate cancer
there was data on many cancersand an increased risk with
prolonged sedentary periods,prolonged sitting how much is
too much sitting and beingsedentary.
It's a little bit of a movingtarget.
Certainly anything over sixhours in the data looks like
it's starting to show increasedrisk.
(01:38):
So getting up and moving.
Even if you have a desk job,making sure that you move, you
take your breaks, you, keepmoving.
You were mentioning squats offthe radio here.
Leah (01:48):
Off the radio.
Offline.
Tina (01:50):
Offline.
Leah (01:52):
There was an article that I had read that if you work a
desk job or any job where youare sitting most of the day, if
you stand up every 30 minutesand do some squats, there was a
period of time you were supposedto do the squats.
I don't remember if it was 30seconds of squats.
I can't remember.
But if you just stand up, move,do some squats, Set an alarm on
your phone, whatever, that wassupposed to be good.
(02:13):
What was interesting is that ifpeople had sedentary jobs and
then we're like these weekendworkout warriors, that didn't
really show any benefit.
Tina (02:23):
Right.
Cause it has to be movement on adaily basis, but that's why we
have, what's very popular now isstanding desks or desks that are
used over a treadmill wherepeople are actually walking
during their meeting they'lljust have a computer over their
treadmill, a little stand there.
Leah (02:39):
It works for people who, yeah, work from home or, you
know, attend meetings over zoom,which I guess is more popular
now, but it doesn't work foreverybody.
Tina (02:48):
I have a.
stationary bicycle desk, whichis gathering dust as we speak,
because you know what I can't dowhen I'm biking is type.
I don't go to a lot of meetings.
I type a lot and I do a lot oflike engaged activity on my
computer like that.
And so it's a great idea though.
I mean, it might work for otherfolks.
I've seen those where there'slike a little pedal,
Leah (03:09):
Or, you know, pedals underneath the desk.
Um, but yeah, I think I wouldhave a hard time multitasking.
I can't even read while walkingon a treadmill.
I watch TV because that way I'mnot really doing anything.
Tina (03:21):
right, right.
I want to get a balance boardfor my standing desk.
So I have a desk, you know, thatis standing.
I can adjust it up and down.
I want to get a balance boardjust to do something while I'm
standing there.
Leah (03:34):
Well, while you're standing every 30 minutes, do
some squats.
Tina (03:37):
I probably do do that quite a bit.
Actually, I do intentionallymove around because I don't want
my joints all getting all stiff.
I am in my 50s.
So you know, got to keep myflexibility and squat down quite
a bit just to keep limber.
Leah (03:50):
Use it or lose it as they say.
Tina (03:56):
I'm Dr Tina Kaczor and as Leah likes to say I'm the
science-y one
Leah (04:00):
and I'm Dr Leah Sherman and on the cancer inside
Tina (04:03):
And we're two naturopathic doctors who practice integrative
cancer care
Leah (04:07):
But we're not your doctors
Tina (04:09):
This is for education entertainment and informational
purposes only do not apply anyof this information
Leah (04:16):
without first speaking to your doctor
Tina (04:18):
The views and opinions expressed on this podcast by the
hosts and their guests aresolely their own
Leah (04:24):
Welcome to the cancer pod So, so there is a, there is a
(04:45):
new smoking and a new sitting.
And we both saw the article likeat the same time, pretty much it
came out in Medscape.
Tina (04:54):
you want a drumroll?
Leah (04:55):
We need a drumroll.
We're going to insert a drumrollhere.
It's pesticides.
Tina (05:00):
Pesticide, which we in our profession as naturopathic docs
and naturopaths around theworld, whether they're
physicians or what they callbarefoot naturopaths, you know,
lay naturopaths around theworld.
We have quite a few listenersout in Australia.
Hello, Australia.
Um, we are all against thesethings.
Pesticides, right?
(05:21):
I mean, this is not somethingthat's.
Going to be new for us and ourrecommendations.
I think that the headlinehopefully will motivate more
people to make the change awayfrom exposures if they can.
Leah (05:33):
Yeah.
And the biggest exposure comesfrom people who work around
them.
So whether it's a landscaper,home gardener, it's people who
live in farming communities,whether they work on the farm.
Directly or just live in thecommunity.
Tina (05:48):
well in this piece that you and I read from Medscape,
which was basically a, a newsbriefing on a study that
happened.
So it was a breakdown of thatstudy and how.
Pesticides are the new smoking.
The Midwest has higher rates inthe United States.
And that is where there's animmense amount of pesticide
usage for Big Ag.
Leah (06:10):
and the article specifically mentioned corn.
The states in the study that thearticle discussed were Iowa,
Illinois, Nebraska, Missouri,Indiana, and Ohio and Florida
because there is an ag componentdown there in Florida.
I mean, Indiana.
So much corn.
So much corn.
Tina (06:29):
I didn't realize there was that much agriculture in
Florida.
I, I, I thought maybe it wasmore like, uh, well, I guess it
would be, huh?
I bet I was thinking it was morelike manicured and landscaped
areas.
You know, they got to keep thecritters out.
Hmm.
Mm
Leah (06:42):
it's pretty surprising, um, driving in between, you
know, South Florida and thengoing a bit north.
Um, my dad is buried in a, um,military cemetery.
I don't know.
It's not quite central Florida,but yeah, no, there's tons of
agriculture out there betweendriving from, you know, Pompano
beach and heading up towardsLake Worth.
(07:03):
It's yeah.
Tina (07:05):
Yeah.
Well, and.
Like you mentioned, occupationalexposures for farmers, I mean,
that's kind of been a rumblingfor decades in the data and I
think that has been looked atbecause occupational exposures
are something that are looked atspecifically because it's such a
high exposure probably more thananyone else is going to be
exposed and more, consistentlyexposed.
(07:26):
The whole communities are beingaffected because there's also
spray through aerial sprayersthat then go into the land, that
then seeps into their watertables that they then drink from
their wells
Leah (07:36):
Right.
Tina (07:37):
Not to mention just aerial sprays not being very specific.
Leah (07:40):
Oh, for sure.
And then I think I've mentionedon another episode, but I
remember having.
A patient who talked about whenthey were a kid running behind
like the, the bug spray,whatever was, was being sprayed.
Tina (07:54):
It was DDT based then.
Yeah.
I was gonna say I don't knowwhat they're using today.
Leah (07:59):
and I don't know if they still have those trucks that
like blast things.
Tina (08:02):
they're spraying communities because of the
mosquitoes in certaincommunities Yeah, I don't know
what they're using
Leah (08:08):
so I want to kind of define pesticides.
Cause I think when we think ofpesticides.
Um, we just think of likeinsects, you know, but I did
look up to see what wasconsidered a pesticide in
agriculture and it includesherbicides and fungicides and
insecticides.
And so the, Definition that Ifound said that they're
chemicals designed to eliminateand control animal and plant
life that can adversely affectagriculture or domestic life.
(08:29):
So it's kind of all lumpedtogether.
So when I typically think ofpesticide, I'm just thinking of
like the stuff you spray to getrid of ants or whatever, but
it's, it also includes theherbicides and fungicides that
are used.
Tina (08:41):
Yeah.
And the amount that is used, ohgosh, I forgot the amount.
It was a lot.
I want to say Roundup orglyphosate alone was like, 188
million tons or some, some like,I'm going to look at it.
I'm going to look at this upcause I just looked it up before
we started talking.
And it was the amounts we'retalking about that are put on
(09:02):
our crops.
Mind blowing.
All right, here we go.
From 2012 to 2016, approximately281 million pounds of
glyphosate, and that's Roundup,were applied to just under 300
million acres annually onaverage.
Soybeans get the most, 117million pounds, corn, 94.
(09:23):
9 million pounds, and cotton, 20million pounds.
And it just goes on and on.
It says the Midwest region ofthe United States used about 65
percent of the nation's totalglyphosate in 2016.
Um, and its use has increaseddramatically since its
introduction in 1996.
And the reason we introduced itin case anyone wants to know
(09:44):
that history is because wegenetically engineered plants
that could handle it.
so.
Because the plants can handleit, we can pour more of it on
there and they survive it.
Leah (09:52):
Right.
And that's the roundup is likeweed killer.
It's like what people spray intheir, on their lawns or, you
know, their xeriscaping orwhatever.
It's yeah, it's weed killer.
Tina (10:03):
Yeah, sorry to say, glyphosate is more of a weed
killer than a pesticide.
I always put pesticides andherbicides as, like, one in my
brain.
Leah (10:09):
No, no, but it is.
No, that's what that was.
The definition was an herbicideis included as a pesticide,
Tina (10:16):
Oh, okay.
Leah (10:17):
according to the definition that I found.
So no, it counts.
It does count.
Um, I, again, forgive me if Irepeat myself, but when I flew
out to interview for theresidency in Indiana, I check
into the hotel, I put on the TV,and the first thing I saw was a
Roundup commercial.
I mean, there were so manycommercials, like, on that
(10:40):
visit.
I saw a lot of Roundup beingadvertised, and I mean, I'm
like, so sketched out byRoundup.
You know, it's been with mydogs, right?
Walking around the neighborhood,you see like, somebody spraying
something, and I'm like, youknow, reminding myself, don't go
to that.
Lawn until, you know, at least,I don't know how long it's bad,
but, you know, at least untilit's dry several days, I'm sure,
(11:01):
but,
Tina (11:01):
And the issue with glyphosate specifically is it's
very close to the amino acidglycine.
And there is evidence showingthat it might be able to be
integrated into places that thenatural amino acid glycine
should be.
And when glyphosate getsintegrated in, instead of
glycine, that monkeys up withthe tissue that it's being used
in.
And glycine's used in tissuesthroughout the body, but the
(11:25):
most, um, kind of glaring effectis in animals and in horses on
their connective tissue.
It weakens their connectivetissue.
And so, It leaves me wondering Imean, we're getting way more
injuries than we used to have inyoung people doing sports.
it leaves this big question markin my brain that I think to
myself, is it maybe weakened?
(11:46):
tendons and ligaments, becausethis is the world we live in
now.
I mean, unless you were broughtup 100 percent organic from day
one and, and live away fromthese communities.
Leah (11:55):
And live in a bubble, a hundred percent organic.
And you live in a bubble whereyou're not exposed to anything.
Um, and the, the big thing,speaking of commercials, you
know, there are tons of ads thatI have been bombarded with
probably because I'm searchingfor certain keywords, but you
know, the increased risk of,Lymphoma non Hodgkin's lymphoma
(12:17):
from glyphosate exposure andseveral people have won
lawsuits.
so yeah, and those arelandscapers or, you know, people
who are around it all the time.
Tina (12:26):
Yeah, and that's just one of, how many was in that study?
Was there 69 different chemicalcompounds that were in that one
study that we're talking about?
the Medscape article,Comprehensive Assessment of
Pesticide Use Patterns andIncreased Cancer Risk.
That's the name of the article.
Okay.
Yeah, it is 69 pesticides intheir table, 69 pesticides of
agricultural interest that aremonitored by the U.
(12:48):
S.
Department of Agriculture andare reported by county that were
included in this study.
So there's way more thanglyphosate, um, The findings
from this paper saw there was anassociation between pesticide
use and increased incidence of,I'm just going to give you them
all, leukemia, non Hodgkin'slymphoma, bladder cancer, colon
cancer, lung cancer, pancreaticcancer, and cancers combined,
(13:10):
that are comparable to smokingfor some of those cancers.
So that's why we're sayingpesticide exposures are the new
smoking.
Because the risk is the same asif you were smoking.
Leah (13:20):
yeah.
And it pointed out thatpesticides contributed to a
higher risk for cancer thansmoking in certain cases.
Um, and then with non Hodgkin'slymphoma.
Pesticides were linked to 154percent more cases than smoking.
Tina (13:35):
Wow.
Leah (13:36):
And they accounted for smoking.
they accounted for, um, youknow, environmental factors as
well that can contribute tocancer.
So they kind of looked at a lotof stuff.
Tina (13:48):
So one of the issues, and not to be a big downer, but the
issue is that these pesticidesare used on almost all of our
crops.
It said in 2021, 96% of the 93.4million acres of corn planted in
the United States, herbicideswere used, pesticides,
herbicides, 96% of all of it.
And so it's ubiquitous.
Leah (14:10):
Yeah, and you know, one of the reasons why pesticides are
used is because it does increaseyields.
And so in, you know, this isglobal, this isn't just the U S
and so across the world wherethere are, concerns with people
getting enough food, the use ofpesticides has increased yields.
And so, there is that benefitbecause organic farms that don't
(14:32):
use pesticides.
Have up to 50 percent loweryields.
And organic farms will usechemicals that are natural.
There's still chemicals, butthey are natural.
as opposed to the syntheticpesticides and those tend to
break down, more rapidly, um,there still is risk, you know,
of.
Causing health issues.
(14:53):
If you're exposed to thesenatural, um, pesticides, they
also use other methods like,netting crops and, uh, planting,
you know, what's it called?
I want to say symbioticplanting.
I can't remember the word, butyou're planting.
Yeah.
You're planting, you know,different things to kind of.
deter pests, you know, from,from your plant and rotating
(15:18):
crops, all of that, like yourotate your crops.
And so if you're always plantingyour cruciferous vegetables in
the same area, you're going tobe more prone to getting those
types of pests and diseasesthat, you know, stick with them.
So you know, there, there areall of these things that you can
do.
It's just, you're not going tobe able to mass produce for an
entire country.
Tina (15:37):
that was the key word, mass production.
I agree with everything you'vesaid.
And we have to remember thatmost of that corn that we're
growing is not to be eaten.
Most of that corn that we'regrowing is, is for feed and for
fuel.
So do we need however million,acres for corn to, I mean, in a
idealistic society, people wouldhave gardens again.
(15:59):
You know, we would have Gardensand grow some food locally or
have farmer's markets.
All this is growing.
I'm actually really encouragedwith our current trends in
society because people are moreaware of this.
So there's local farmers,there's local farmers markets.
Um, buying from small vendors isgoing to be helpful because
local foods are going to becleaner.
(16:19):
That's all there is to it.
Leah (16:21):
They're, but they're still using these pesticides because
I've tried to grow apples Wehave a really old apple tree out
front It's so hard and you knowpeople want a pretty apple They
don't want a wormhole in anapple that you have to cut
around.
It's really hard to grow apples
Tina (16:39):
I didn't think so.
I had apple trees in Eugene.
We got really nice apples.
I sprayed it with sulfur.
Leah (16:45):
Oh, see, I haven't sprayed mine with anything.
I tried doing the um, puttingthe little stockings around them
and that didn't really help
Tina (16:51):
Sulfur's a nasty, one day, stinky job that you just, you
know, put it on the hose andspray the bejeebies out of it,
but it does work for a coupleyears in a row.
Leah (17:00):
Yeah, I need to do that.
And then also we have rust,which is, I think it's a kind of
a fungus that comes from thejuniper trees that are around.
Tina (17:08):
And neem.
Leah (17:09):
oh yeah, I've used neem before, but yeah, you have to be
more diligent.
It's a lot more work.
Tina (17:14):
do.
Well,
Leah (17:15):
work, Tina.
Tina (17:16):
I know but my point, maybe that's part of the point Maybe
we should go back to a littlebit more of that
Leah (17:21):
Then, then we wouldn't be sitting so
Tina (17:22):
exactly we got to be getting up anyways But it is
true I mean think about that Imean if you if you do have space
to grow food it does Forced youto go out and put your hands in
the soil and some of those soilorganisms aren't such a bad
thing either, organic soil,fresh food, you know, greens, I
(17:45):
think are like the intro toeverything because you can grow
greens, they, you clip them andthey grow right back.
Leah (17:50):
Well, the thing with greens is you can grow them if
you live in an apartment andhave a sunny window.
You can grow greens.
You know, they don't wantextremes and temperatures.
They kind of like things alittle cool, so you can just get
a little, you know, window box,even on the inside and, and try
to grow some greens.
Or, my favorite thing is toregrow food that you've already
(18:12):
used.
And so if you use.
Spring or green onion and youcut it down and there's still
some white part left you stickthat in some water You know, you
can like regrow food and thenreuse the green part will
continue to grow And you justsnip that and keep using it You
know, I guess it's easier ifit's just like one or two people
if it's a whole family It doesget to be a little harder to
(18:35):
grow that much food
Tina (18:36):
sure.
I totally agree with that.
I just, I think big ag is a bigproblem in the United States.
It's an industry.
It has created an industry andit's highly subsidized.
Um, which means that we prop itup, and it's not healthy.
Leah (18:50):
Which we've talked about and I know we've talked about
this in other episodes You know,especially with corn and soy
Tina (18:58):
Yeah.
And I'm not here to political.
It's not about that.
It's about the health of the endproduct.
Right.
And so we're creating marketsfor these by products because we
are destined to grow that much.
Um, and these aren't familyfarms I'm talking about.
I'm talking about agriculturalbusinesses.
These are gigantic.
I mean, there's big pharma.
There's big ag too.
(19:19):
Yeah.
Leah (19:19):
Right.
Monocrops, like huge, likemonocrops and stuff.
And I know they do rotate.
Cause I have seen that whereit's like, they plant the corn
and then they then they plantthe soy and then they plant the
corn and then they plant thesoy, but you're just doing these
two major, like pesticide heavycrops.
Tina (19:35):
Yeah, I think we have to look at ourselves as part of a
very large ecosystem.
And we are just one organism ofmany, of millions.
And so when we monocrop millionsof acres at once, um, what that
does to the soil, what that doesto the air quality, what that
does to our ingestion of thesechemicals that we're talking
about today.
(19:55):
I don't think it's how we'remeant to do it.
To exist.
I think we're meant to existmore in harmony with our
surroundings than that.
But that's philosophical, Isuppose.
That's a naturopathic point ofview, Right.
Yeah,
Leah (20:08):
it's an ideal point of view, but the reality of the
population of the world, becauseagain, I'm not just thinking of
the U S but just the populationof the world, um, and different
circumstances in which peoplelive different environments, it
does make it harder.
To do that.
So, you know, you're living in adesert where are you getting
your food from?
(20:29):
I did not.
Now I'm thinking Arizona,there's a lot of agriculture in
Arizona, which is so surprisingbecause it is a desert and they
bring that water in.
Tina (20:38):
that's a whole, I mean, I am idealistic.
You're right, because I don'tthink we should be growing most
of our crops in desert climates.
I just don't.
I think that that was a bad ideain the first place But that's
what I mean by big ag.
I think that if it shrank downand you did different model of
agriculture, we would be, wewould probably have more water.
Leah (20:56):
And other people would have less money in their
pockets.
Tina (20:59):
Yeah, there's that.
I think that a lot of it, whenit became Big Ag as in capital
B, capital A in a big business,then it's all about the money.
It's not about the product orthe health.
Leah (21:10):
It's not about the health.
Yeah.
It's not about the health of, aswe learned from smoking when it
came out, that there werestudies initially that showed
that smoking was bad for you.
And those had been suppressed.
Tina (21:23):
Yeah, and you know, you said you're thinking about the
whole world.
You know, we in the UnitedStates, we do allow more
toxicity in our crops than othercountries do.
chemicals that are banned ordiscouraged in Europe.
And it's unfortunate, but that'sjust the way it is right now.
Um, I did go to the EPA websiteand look at how they classify
(21:46):
carcinogenic pesticides andherbicides.
It's fairly convoluted, and whatthey don't do is give you a
list.
They don't give you a list oftheir findings.
They do have a system, just likethe World Health Organization
does, of ranking the likelycarcinogenic potential of
various compounds.
They did say that if we testedit a while ago, we're not going
to retest it because ourresources are limited.
(22:08):
so even though we have bettermeans of testing it now, we're
not going to redo anything thatwas old.
Leah (22:14):
Is that the international Agency for Research on Cancer?
Is that who,
Tina (22:18):
That's the WHO group that, that has the classic, monographs
on carcinogens.
I'm talking about the EPA.
The EPA does something similar,but they're nowhere near as
transparent with theinformation.
As a matter of fact, instead ofputting the name of the
pesticide, they just put Onecomma four dash pesticide
instead of the the proper name.
(22:38):
Yeah, instead of saying one fororganochlorine or whatever
people are searching for.
So I feel like it's a littlebit, um, Opaque, but what can we
do about all this?
That's the question.
I guess, you know withoutharping on how bad it is We
probably should talk about whatwe recommend people do.
Leah (22:56):
Well, I think the first thing is if somebody is not able
to purchase organic to make surethat when you do purchase your
fruits and vegetables, washthem.
Tina (23:08):
And, I think you've brought this up before, the
Environmental Working Group cangive you some prioritizing of
which ones are the worstculprits when it comes to
pesticide laden fruits andvegetables.
Leah (23:19):
Right, the, the soft skinned, um, berries and fruits,
that sort of thing.
But if that's right, but ifthat's your only option, wash
them.
I mean, I don't know how manytimes, I mean, I know organic
berries are sprayed and I don'tknow how many times I'll just be
like, Ooh, berries.
And I'll just start eating thembefore washing them.
And I'm guilty of that myself.
(23:39):
Um, I don't know if it has anyeffect.
One thing I started doing withmy berries is I wash them with a
little bit of vinegar.
Vinegar and that's mostly justto kind of keep them from going
bad because organic berries gobad so quickly Um, they turn
really fast And so I had readsomewhere that if you add a
little vinegar to your yourrinse water, it helps to keep
(24:00):
berries fresh longer.
Tina (24:02):
Does it work?
Leah (24:02):
it seems to work.
Yeah, absolutely I don't know ifit's doing anything, you know,
in terms of washing off anyresidue, but you know, peel your
fruits.
If, if you have an apple, ifyou're concerned about this,
then peel your apples.
Um, if they're not organic, Iknow probably, I'm going to just
guess the majority of people wholisten to us might not be able
(24:24):
to afford all organic all thetime.
Um, I know when I am in theMidwest, it's not always
available.
Tina (24:32):
hmm.
Leah (24:33):
And so it's like, I don't stress about it.
I just make sure that I wash thefoods and, you know, my
preference is to have somethingorganic.
I am in a position where thatcan be like, You know, priority
on my grocery list, but I knowit isn't for everybody.
Tina (24:49):
Right.
Right.
Leah (24:50):
you also have to think that when you're eating those
berries, even if they're notorganic, you're still getting
health benefits from them.
You know, just maybe if you'renot able to eat organic, then
try not to use those pesticidesin your garden or something, try
to reduce those exposures, otherplaces in your life.
Tina (25:07):
Right.
Being mindful.
First of all, don't use them,right?
I mean, if you must use them,take full precautions not to
ingest through your inhalationroute or your skin or even your
eyes.
Take full precautions if yourjob requires you to use them,
that kind of thing.
Don't take those precautionslightly.
I mean, yeah, just avoid them.
I mean, Home Depot has animmense number of pesticides and
(25:31):
herbicides.
So I know people are still usingthem at home quite a bit, right?
There are natural alternativesto some of these things.
I mean, for me, I have, I haveto take out these gnarly little
weeds that get in my dog's paws.
They're, they're hard.
They're in the high desert.
we try to hit that with 20 or 30percent vinegar to defoliate
(25:52):
them.
And then once they're Theydefoliate after a day or two.
Then we come back with a torchand light all this, all of it on
fire.
Leah (26:00):
yeah, I mean, there are, there are definitely things that
people can do around the houseto kind of lessen that.
I think one of the things is ifwe get away from these manicured
lawns.
That are so like, it's soingrained in our society to have
these beautiful green manicuredlawns and you go out and you mow
them and they're just perfect.
And there are no weeds.
I mean, if I'm looking out at myyard right now, it's well, it's
(26:24):
Portland.
And so this time of year, nobodywaters anything or very few
people water.
So it's like dead grass, butthen I have my vegetable
gardens, you know?
Tina (26:32):
And can I share that your, one of your vegetable gardens is
on your front lawn.
Leah (26:36):
They both are.
Both of my vegetable gardens areon my front lawn because if they
were on the back lawn, the dogswould eat them.
Um, would eat them.
It would be hard to get the dogsout.
And we get more sun in thefront.
And so, yeah.
No.
That's.
It's always been that way.
We had a house when we lived inSoutheast Portland where the
side garden was this likebeautiful manicured, like
(26:58):
English garden when I moved in.
And by the time I was done withit, there were, I think at least
three garden beds and a chickencoop.
You know, in this like niceneighborhood that we were living
in.
So, yeah, I mean, I know that itlooks really pretty to have this
gorgeous manicured lawn, butyou're not helping anybody.
(27:19):
You can't eat it.
You know, we just had, we justcame out of this like huge, like
lockdown situation where it waslike, it was hard to get food,
start growing it.
If you have the ability, if youhave the ability, if you live in
an apartment building andthere's a, a community garden,
you know, like try to grow yourown food.
Tina (27:36):
it's interesting.
Cause it's really just a changeof mindset Right.
Because I think we tend to dowhatever is culturally the norm
in our area.
And I've driven across the U S afew times and I, it's right when
I hit the Midwest that I startto see the large lawns and then
it continues all the waythrough, uh, you know, I'll go
all the way to the east and, uh,you know, we're, we're talking
(27:57):
riding tractors are required,right?
These are big lawns.
Leah (28:00):
And you see that out here too, though, in Portland, you
know, in the, in certainneighborhoods there, you know,
that is kind of the thing too.
I think the front yard garden inmy neighborhood is the norm.
Tina (28:10):
Mm hmm.
Interesting.
Yeah.
So I'm saying that because Ithink there is a cultural aspect
to this and I'm talking likeregional sub regional town down
to the zip code.
Right?
Like, this is like, what dopeople do in your area?
Yeah.
There is a movement.
I saw this on, I don't knowwhere Facebook or something put
up pictures about how peoplewere, um, taking their lawn out
and putting in meadows andgardens.
(28:34):
And a lot of it was to keep thebees coming and to feed
hummingbirds and things likethat.
But there's no reason you can'tdo that and feed yourself.
That was kind of a neatmovement.
I see it going on in severalneighborhoods in Texas.
Like Indiana and, uh, Iowa andstuff.
So that was that, that wasencouraging.
That's kind of cool to see.
Leah (28:54):
Yeah.
And when I was living inIndiana, there were certain
areas that were kind of thesefields where they would mow
them.
And that's kind of where youwould walk your dog.
I noticed the last time I livedthere, they weren't mowing them
and they would mow a certainarea and then they would allow
the wildflowers and you know,the meadows to kind of flourish.
And that's kind of nice.
(29:15):
It's pretty.
And that's something I do wantto do here as well.
And, um, I'm trying to do up atour cabin, you know, to, we have
an expanse of grass and I'mtrying to let part of that go
wild.
We're getting like Elk kind ofnesting overnight in there.
I mean, it's like you'reattracting more wildlife, which
is so cool I mean you find theirpoop everywhere.
(29:37):
That was an issue, but you know,it's still it's you know Sharing
sharing with the wildlife.
Tina (29:42):
Yeah.
I was going to say, technicallythey were there first, so,
Leah (29:45):
That is true.
That is true
Tina (29:48):
so it's good to share.
Leah (29:50):
So I think If people want more information on actionable
things they can do.
we did that interview withChristina The environmental, um,
journalist..
And so go check that episodeout.
We'll put a link for her and gether book.
Cause she talks about a lotabout this, about, you know, the
(30:11):
different areas across the U Sand the, not just pesticide
exposure, but just overallexposures and health risks.
Tina (30:17):
Yes, yeah, I want to make sure that I know we say this in
a lot of episodes, but I don'tfeel like we said this in any
recent episode.
Um, once you ingest somethingand you will, because this is
the world we live in, you willhave chemicals coming in,
whether you breathe them in, orthey contact your skin or
they're on your food or in yourfood.
there's four routes out thebody.
(30:38):
So you just have to keep thoseelimination pathways wide open.
And that is.
Your sweat, your breath, yoururine, and your stool four ways
out the body.
So keep them all healthy andRegular, right?
this might be one of the reasonsexercise is really good for us
because it increases All ofthose it increases blood flow,
(31:01):
which is it increases ourkidneys ability to filter the
blood and it keeps you regularYou breathe deeper and it makes
you sweat You can't hear it toomany times.
Leah (31:11):
And you're also increasing your muscle mass and lessening
your fat mass and fat mass tendsto hold onto all of these
chemicals.
Tina (31:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
We didn't even talk about that,but that's one of the reasons.
Sometimes when people loseweight really quickly, they
don't feel well.
and often you're liberatingchemical compounds that have
been stored in the fat becausethat is usually where they go is
they get stored away in your fattissue.
so your adipose cells or yourfat cells, actually, that's
where they're soluble.
(31:39):
That's where they get stored.
And so as those shrink, Youliberate these compounds
sometimes.
So, so a rapid weight loss canmake people feel a little funky
sometimes.
And I think fasting sometimeshas that, you know, when people
do extended fasts.
Leah (31:52):
There's so much going on when people fast that it's hard
to say like, that's what this isfrom.
Um, we're not promoting thatpeople do those detoxes that are
all over social media, you know,drinking these crazy smoothies
and whatnot.
That's not really.
Tina (32:07):
No, I think there's a book out there or I don't know if
it's a recipe book.
I think it's called EverydayDetox.
It's a decent book about howyour body eliminates chemical
compounds.
I have it somewhere on my
Leah (32:17):
But I just don't want people going out and buying
like, you know, detox formulapowders, pills, capsules, making
like crazy smoothies that peopleare coming up with on, on the
TikTok.
Like that's not necessary.
drink your filtered water andeat your fiber.
Make sure that you're poopingand peeing and, you know, sweat
a little.
Tina (32:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And if anything, avoidance isfirst because you're going to
get exposed regardless.
So avoiding them as much aspossible is the number one thing
that we can do.
And that means takingprecautions.
I mean, I do think that we, meincluded, there are times that I
should take more precaution thanI do.
Right.
You should wear a respiratormask when you're using certain
paints and that kind of thing.
And you think, Oh, it's onlygonna take me 10 minutes.
(32:59):
And you just quickly do it.
I do it if it's exposure for along time, of course, but
there's times that we all dothat, right?
Leah (33:05):
Yeah, and working in a cancer center in the Midwest and
talking to people who work inagriculture, whether they're
farmers or, you know, whateverthey're doing, always checking
to make sure that they werewearing respirators.
Are those provided to you?
Yeah, but it's too hot to Youknow, I heard that, but that was
more, you know, the RV industrythat, people weren't wearing
(33:28):
protective gear.
If you need to use.
Pesticides or any chemicals,make sure that you are being
safe, you know, wearingprotective gear for yourself
because maybe you're thinkinglike, well, these small
exposures, it's not, it's notgoing to make or break me.
No, but think about the peoplewho are growing and harvesting
(33:48):
this food and have greaterexposures and people who live in
the areas around these farms.
greater exposures.
And so that's, that's a bigconcern, you know, that's
because we will get somepushback I know, because there,
you know, the thought that thesesmall exposures don't matter.
(34:09):
But over time, it's not just thefood that we're eating.
It's the air that we'rebreathing.
We talked about microplastics.
I mean, so that's what I mean.
Like, you're like, you're justconstantly, it's like you might
try to live as clean and healthyas possible.
And you might have some peopledown the street who are burning
their trash.
Tina (34:29):
Yeah.
Yeah.
This is, this is why we controlthe variables we have control
over, but don't sweat the restof it.
try to control your ownenvironment as best you can.
Leah (34:38):
So I don't want people to get all super paranoid and start
stressing out because then we'regoing to find out that stress is
the new smoking and so, youknow, so
Tina (34:48):
No, it's a valid point.
Totally agree.
Yes.
Leah (34:52):
You know, it's just it's it's being aware doing what you
can to lessen not only yourexposure but other people's
exposure.
If you're like, well, I'm kindof sick of spending every Sunday
mowing my lawn, make it ameadow.
I know if you live in an HOAthat's not going to happen,
Tina (35:09):
No.
Leah (35:10):
but you know, I don't know what to tell you then.
Tina (35:14):
I know.
I know.
There's true challenges.
And this is why I say it's alittle bit of a cultural thing.
So I'm excited and encouragedwhen I see these counterculture
neighborhoods going and saying,you know what, we're just going
to start planning a meadow.
And it's okay.
We all like our meadow, youknow, so like a little more
respect for the naturalenvironment that's being kind of
adopted out there.
I think, I think that's thedirection we're headed in
(35:35):
anyways.
a lot of what we talked abouttoday, you and I already knew.
And so, yeah, it's, there mightbe a slight underestimation of
how kind of negative it is.
it's just something that we'velived with for our entire
careers at the very least, aknowledge of this.
Pesticide being horrible andpossibly carcinogenic, many of
them.
(35:56):
so yeah, I hope we weren't toonegative on this one.
Leah (35:59):
I know.
On that note, I'm Dr.
Leia Sherman
Tina (36:02):
And I'm Dr.
Tina Kaczor.
Leah (36:04):
and this is The Cancer Pod.
Tina (36:05):
Until next time.
Thanks for listening to TheCancer Pod.
Remember to subscribe, review,and rate us wherever you get
your podcasts.
Follow us on social media forupdates.
And as always, this is notmedical advice.
These are our opinions.
Talk to your doctor beforechanging anything related to
your treatment plan.
The Cancer Pod is hosted by me,Dr.
(36:26):
Leah Sherman, and by Dr.
Tina Kaczor.
Music is by Kevin MacLeod.
See you next time.
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