July 24, 2024 • 44 mins
Tina and Leah take on some TikTok misconceptions, including influencers' anti-sunscreen rants, head-on (wearing a wide-brimmed hat, of course). The sun is good. The sun is bad. The sun will give you cancer, no wait, it will protect you from cancers. As is often the case, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Tune in for a factual discussion about sun exposure, tanning, and the difference between UVA and UVB rays on your skin. We talk sunscreens, sun blockers, and why there is so much darn skin cancer down under! (Not THAT down under! We mean Australia/New Zealand).
Some links that you may like:
Who's Spicoli?
List of the recalled Sunscreens
Bain De Soleil Commercial
SPF and Sun Protection explained (Skin Cancer Foundation)
Eating tomatoes - evidence of protection from sun damage (mice)
The ABCDE of identifying melanoma
Five sunburns in childhood increases risk, and more info
Skin Cancer rates across by country (Scientific American)
Our prior episode on Vitamin D
Sunscreen Chemicals and Marine Life (National Oceanic and Atmospheric Association)
Guide to the Safer Sunscreens (Environmental Working Group)
Our website: https://www.thecancerpod.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leah (00:00):
And that is where melanona Mel.
(00:03):
Who's What did I just say?
Melanona.
Tina (00:05):
I think I know
Leah (00:06):
Who is she?
Tina (00:08):
I'm Dr Tina Kaczor and as Leah likes to say I'm the
science-y one
Leah (00:12):
and I'm Dr Leah Sherman and on the cancer inside
Tina (00:16):
And we're two naturopathic doctors who practice integrative
cancer care
Leah (00:20):
But we're not your doctors
Tina (00:22):
This is for education entertainment and informational
purposes only do not apply anyof this information
Leah (00:29):
without first speaking to your doctor
Tina (00:31):
The views and opinions expressed on this podcast by the
hosts and their guests aresolely their own
Leah (00:37):
Welcome to the cancer pod Hey, Tina,
Tina (00:57):
Hi, Leah.
Leah (00:58):
I know you don't have the TikTok, but there was this trend
going around.
I don't know if you saw it inthe news where I guess a bunch
of influencers were talkingabout sunscreen and how it's bad
for you and you shouldn't, theywere kind of promoting not using
sunscreen.
Did you hear about that?
I didn't think so.
Tina (01:17):
My knowledge of TikTok is pretty, it's pretty narrow.
Leah (01:21):
I know, but it was, it was making, like, The rounds in the
news, because it is concerning,um, something I learned is that
Gen Z gets a lot of their healthinformation from social media.
So I'm assuming from TikTok,what is even more interesting is
when I searched to find theseanti sunscreen videos, all I
found were anti, antidermatologists and other
(01:46):
influencers talking about, Oh,no, no, no.
This is what.
You know, the science shows, orthis is what is safe, or I'm
just promoting this product.
You know, how they all kind oftry to sell you something.
Anyways, I thought that wasreally interesting.
and it kind of drove me to thinkthat we should talk about just
sun safety in general.
Tina (02:07):
Yeah.
Tis the season.
Leah (02:09):
is the season.
Yes.
Um, where I'm at right now, it'snot sunny, but that doesn't
really matter when it comes tosun safety.
Tina (02:17):
No, because in preparing for this, I saw that there's
actually higher rates of someskin cancers, like melanoma, in
Oregon than there is in Texas.
Leah (02:27):
That is really surprising.
but I can see that because atleast when I lived in Arizona,
nobody went outside in themiddle of the summer because
it's 450 degrees Fahrenheit.
Uh, and so in Oregon, people arelike, Oh, it's, you know, it's,
it's not sunny out.
So I could, I definitely couldsee that.
I also think, I don't know aboutany more, but I know when I
(02:48):
first moved to Portland, therewas a lot of tanning booths.
Tina (02:52):
Hmm.
Yeah.
So a lot of people miss theirsunshine and their rays, so they
go and sit in a tanning bed.
Leah (02:58):
Right.
And so I don't know with all ofthe regulations that, um, went
down with tanning beds.
I don't know if that'snecessarily the truth anymore,
but I can see that because ofthe, the overcast weather,
people think they're safe.
Tina (03:11):
Yeah.
Yeah, and we tend to get oursunshine in consecutive days and
months, and then we lose allsunshine for several months.
So there's like, it's notintermittent throughout the
year, where I grew up in upstateNew York, there was, it was some
sunshine in the wintertime aswell as the summertime.
it was parsed out through the 12months of the year, a little bit
more steadily, and here in theNorthwest, we get it or we
(03:36):
don't.
Oh,
Leah (03:39):
you know, my, my own social media that as soon as
there's a sunny day, peoplestart posting pictures of their
sunburns.
know, people in the Portlandarea start doing that.
So I think that's the thing too,right?
It's the first sunny day andeveryone runs out in shorts and
a tank top and.
Tina (03:56):
absolutely.
Absolutely.
Leah (03:57):
Or they're gardening and then it was like, they're beet
rad.
So.
Tina (04:00):
Yeah.
It might be 55 degrees out, butif the sun is shining, people
are wearing shorts.
Leah (04:05):
Yeah, not me, but, but people do.
Yes, that is very true.
Not me.
I'm still, I'm in a fleece rightnow.
Um, so yeah, I think, you know,you mentioned the skin cancer
thing, and I think that issomething a lot of people, you
know, obviously relate to with,sun exposure, and I think that's
a really important thing, thatsome people think in terms of
(04:26):
skin cancer, like, Oh, basalcell squamous cell, those are,
those are like, you know, I'mputting big finger quotes, easy
cancers, they're not necessarilydangerous.
And that's not necessarily true.
Tina (04:39):
No.
Caught early.
Generally, that is a very goodprognosis, caught early squamous
cell cancers of the skin andbasal cell carcinomas of the
skin and even melanoma.
When it's caught early, in itsearliest stages, is very good
prognosis because surgically youcan remove the whole thing.
But it can get sneaky sometimestoo.
Leah (05:00):
Oh, absolutely.
And the thing with these skincancers is that you're not
necessarily just removing, youknow, especially with melanoma,
you're not just removing justthe mole.
Like they're going to make ahuge cut to make sure they're
getting the depth and themargins that they need.
Absolutely.
Tina (05:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I would say right off thebat, if someone suspects a
melanoma, go to a dermatologist.
If you're getting a skin check,you know, primary care
physicians are okay.
I'll include myself in thatbasket.
We're decent at recognizingthings, but nothing replaces a
good dermatologist because theycan usually on sight and
certainly with a biopsy,identify any skin lesions.
(05:40):
So they're, they're just very,very good at it.
Even, even by sight.
Leah (05:44):
And I would recommend, just from having worked, um,
years ago with one of the mostprominent melanoma researchers
at the time, when you go to thedoctor, if you think something
is suspicious, don't let themjust do a shave biopsy, because
he was finding that a lot of thedermatologists in the area were
(06:07):
doing shave biopsies ofsomething that Came back as
melanoma.
And so, yeah, it's just kind ofadvocating for yourself and
making sure, and if you have areally tiny, tiny mole and it's
suspicious and somebody is like,well, it doesn't meet the
criteria because it has to be ofa certain size, you know, like
the eraser head size that wetalked about in another episode,
(06:27):
I would advocate for you to haveit removed and get biopsied
because it has to startsomewhere.
Like, it's not like it's goingto necessarily magically appear
and be the size of an eraserhead.
Tina (06:39):
Yeah.
And there is, I'm just going tosay the A, B, C, D, E of
melanoma, right?
There's the asymmetry and thathas to do with the, the shape of
it.
Is it asymmetrical or is itsymmetrical?
There's the border.
Are they regular and nice andsmooth?
Are they irregular borders wherethey're a little, either looking
cauliflower or a little off?
Um, the color, you know, colorchanges, especially if it gets
(07:00):
hyperpigmented, but not allmelanomas have pigment.
That can be challenging.
Some melanomas aren't dark.
And then.
The diameter, which you'vealready mentioned, uh, size of a
number two pencil eraser is, iskind of our limit and evolving.
So I think the one you were justmentioning is if it's evolving,
if you have this little tinything that suddenly gets bigger
or suddenly starts itching,changes shape or color or
(07:22):
border, distinctions, then thatneeds to be looked at.
And I would go straight to adermatologist because in my
experience there have beenPrimary care physicians more
often do a shave biopsy whenthey shouldn't have.
In my private practice, Inoticed that then a
dermatologist, dermatologistswere more likely to take larger
margins, even for the firstbiopsy, if they thought it could
be a melanoma.
Leah (07:43):
So another thing about melanoma, which I don't think
people necessarily think aboutis it's not just the moles that
you see.
I always say melanoma is theskin cancer where the sun don't
shine.
Right?
I mean, it's going to be thebottom of the foot behind the
ear.
You know, people are like, well,I've never had that area exposed
to the sun.
(08:03):
And that is where melanona MelWho's What did I just say?
Melanona
Tina (08:09):
I think I know
Leah (08:09):
Who is she?
And that is where melanoma tendsto appear, you know, gluteal
fold, um, really like under thefingernails, like unusual
places.
Tina (08:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, mucous membranes in themouth, vaginal area, the anus,
could appear anywhere.
And then one that's fairlyunusual, but I feel like we've
been seeing more and more of it,at least anecdotally I've been
seeing more of it, is a uveal,which is in the eye.
UVL melanoma, which is a goodreason to get your eyes checked
every once in a while.
So, cause any, anyone lookinginto your eyes should be able to
(08:42):
see that early on.
So there are different types andyou're right.
Melanoma is more likely to behidden and in areas where the
sun don't shine than squamouscell carcinoma or basal cell
carcinoma which both more oftenappear where the sun has done
damage.
Leah (08:59):
And for those who think, oh, well, this will never happen
to me, um, it's not just cancerrisk.
I mean, you're risking otherthings like increased wrinkles.
And I know that sounds funny,but for some people, premature
aging.
It is more of a concern.
I mean, it's it's just the wayit is.
Um, you can have other growthsappear on your skin as you age,
(09:24):
you know, known as age spots orseborrheic keratoses, which are
kind of those, like, it lookslike it's stuck on.
It's like this plaque kind ofdark or skin colored mass mole.
That's you see on skin that hasbeen, exposed to a lot of sun.
Um, there's a variety of whypeople need to be careful.
Tina (09:44):
Yeah.
I think that photo aging is onethat.
We probably, uh, can emphasize,especially to younger folks,
because it does, over time, haveconsequences, just because UVA,
in particular, penetrates fairlydeep right to the dermis, right
below the epidermis, and thatcan create that rapid aging
effect deeper wrinkles,
Leah (10:04):
So let's talk about UVA versus UVB rays.
And so I always think of UVBrays as the burning rays and
people are like, Oh, well youwant to block that.
No, those are actually theprotective rays.
Tell you, okay, you're gettingtoo much, sun.
Like you need a, you need topull back a little.
And the UVA rays, which are thequote unquote, um, tanning rays
(10:28):
are also the ones that canpromote things like melanoma.
Tina (10:32):
because the melanocytes are in the dermis, and only the
UVA reaches down that far.
The UVB doesn't penetrate theskin as deeply, so they're more
superficial, but they are, likeyou said, I don't know, you call
them protective, I would saythey're more like a sentinel.
Like, you know that you'reburning, because UVB causes that
redness, or You know, the dry,red, and even eventually
(10:56):
blistering of the skin that's,that's warning you that you're
getting too much ultravioletradiation.
Leah (11:01):
What did I say?
Protective or preventive?
Protective?
Well, what I meant was that it'sa, it's a warning.
Yeah.
protective in that it's like atornado siren, right?
It's just protecting you fromwhat may be inevitable.
Tina (11:16):
Yeah.
It's giving you some kind ofidea of what's happening.
Leah (11:19):
It's the tornado siren of your skin.
Okay.
So I found a really interestingstatistic, um, when we were
prepping for this, you mentionedthat there are certain countries
where people are moresusceptible to skin cancer,
melanoma, and one of them isAustralia.
There was a website that talkedabout five blistering sunburns
(11:39):
before the age of 18 increaseyour risk of skin cancer.
Tina (11:43):
Five blistering sunburns by the age of 18.
I'm repeating it because I thinkevery listener can think back to
the, to their own history andask themselves that question.
Did I have blistering sunburnswhen I was young?
Leah (11:56):
And I, I definitely did.
I remember being a little kid.
We went to the beach in SouthernFlorida and my sister and I were
playing in the water and sureenough, I had massive blisters
on my back.
And I can remember a few timesat the pool as well.
Yeah.
I mean, it's not like, well,you've only had four.
You're fine.
You know, it's not, That cut anddry, but definitely thinking
(12:20):
about, um, yeah, your, yourhistory as a kid.
And, you know, back then Iremember like we used
Coppertone, right?
That was the thing that everyoneused back then.
And I don't remember reapplyingit.
Tina (12:35):
Remember?
Bando Soleil for the centralbay, tan, Bando Soleil for the
deep darkening tan.
Leah (12:44):
You know, the whole commercial.
That's amazing.
My aunt used band de soleil andI thought that was so glamorous
and so elegant.
I thought it was like the fancypeople.
Sunscreen.
No, we use the white copper tonewith the little puppy and the
little child on the label.
Yeah.
No, we, we did not usebandosolate.
(13:06):
We did use other weird things asteenagers.
Um, you know, baby oil and allof that, but for sunscreen, it
was always copper tone and Idon't remember reapplying it.
And that is a really importantpart.
Tina (13:19):
I remember the SPF was like two or four.
Leah (13:22):
Yeah, it was like SPF four, right?
Yeah.
There was no SPF 50 back then,so reapplying every two hours is
really important when you comeout of the water, you're
supposed to reapply.
Tina (13:32):
Yes.
Leah (13:33):
If you're doing a sport where you're really perspiring a
lot, reapply.
Tina (13:38):
Yeah.
I think they say it on the labelnow every couple hours and it's
even less on some of them forthe, they have special sports,
SPF 30 or 50 for the water, andit's supposed to be a slightly
waterproof, but they do tell youwhen you come out to reapply,
Leah (13:53):
Yeah, I don't know if people really do that though.
It's kind of like, how much doyou actually apply?
I think people, especially withthe ones that are zinc or
titanium oxide, I think peopletend to apply.
Less because they don't want tolook like, don't know, We're
going to have to put in areference so people are, you
(14:13):
know, people know what Spicoli.
Yeah.
They don't want to look likeSpicoli, but the amount of
sunscreen you're supposed to usefor an average size person,
whatever that may mean is oneounce.
So we're talking a shot glass ofsunscreen.
Tina (14:28):
That's a lot.
Leah (14:29):
That's a lot.
And so at least a quarter of ateaspoon of that is for your
face alone,
Tina (14:35):
From what you told me earlier, some of the tick tock
outrage over these 30 and plussunblockers is what they
contain, like other chemicalcompounds, right?
Leah (14:46):
Oh yeah.
So no, what the, what I saw adermatologist was clarifying is,
I think there was a big concernabout sunscreens cause cancer.
And a few years ago, there was arecall for a bunch of sunscreens
because they had a contaminant,which was benzene.
There is the oxy benzone.
(15:07):
In a lot of sunscreens, that isone of the chemical sunscreens
that protects against the UVArays.
The problem is that there was acontaminant and we will link in
our show notes notes for, youknow, people to look up to if
they do have a sunscreen at homethat they want to know if it was
one of the recalls, if theydidn't hear about that.
And it has a whole list of them.
(15:28):
A lot of them have alreadyexpired.
Um, but there were some thatdidn't expire until like 2024.
So.
Nobody ever throws out theirsunscreen.
I mean, didn't, did you knowthat sunscreen had an expiration
date?
Tina (15:41):
Uh, no.
Leah (15:43):
Yeah.
So sunscreen has an expirationdate.
And this is something else thatI thought was really fascinating
is that the organic and byorganic, I mean, organic
chemicals, like the chemicalsunscreens, the oxybenzones and
the other things that I don'twant to try to pronounce those.
Do expire.
They do degrade over time.
So you do want to, if that's theone that you're using, you do
(16:04):
want to replace those regularly,but the mineral sunblocks, the
titanium dioxide in the zincoxide, those don't expire.
So there is an expiration date.
Cause those are the ones that Ibuy.
And I actually almost threw oneout the other day because I was
like, Oh, it's past itsexpiration date.
And then doing research for thisepisode, I was like, Oh, I don't
have to throw it out.
(16:24):
It's just, you need to have anexpiration date on products.
Tina (16:27):
well that makes sense because those titanium or zinc
ones are actual physicalblockages of the rays.
So they're not going anywhere.
They're metals and they're justthere.
Leah (16:39):
Right.
They're not sinking into yourskin and creating a barrier.
Right.
The other thing about themineral sunblocks is that when
you go in the water.
So there was a study thatcompared the two different
kinds, the organic and theinorganic, inorganic being the
mineral sunscreens that comparedthe two sunscreens in water as a
small study, like 22 people orsomething, and they To see which
(17:04):
still was, you know, moreeffective after an hour and a
half.
And the mineral sunscreens wonout.
So you still need to reapply itit is, it is something that
stays on your body.
Tina (17:14):
Now are they both reef safe?
Leah (17:16):
The mineral sunscreens or sunblocks are, and that's a
really important thing.
Um, what Tina means by reef safeis there was a big movement and
you said in Hawaii, there arecertain sunscreens that are not
allowed.
And what it is, is the chemicalsin these organic sunscreens, by
(17:39):
organic I'm not meaning like thesame thing as like organic food,
um, again, it's just, it's acarbon based sunscreen,
Tina (17:48):
As opposed to mineral based?
Leah (17:49):
opposed to mineral based?
Tina (17:51):
Which is zinc and titanium.
Okay.
Leah (17:53):
right?
Yeah.
No, thanks for clarifying.
Um, Those can affect thefertility of fish.
they can kill coral reefs.
They have killed coral reefs.
Um, they have been found intissues of dolphins.
I mean, the list goes on again.
We could put a link for that init.
The link is through, um, NOAA,which is the, the weather
(18:15):
people, not try to remember whatNOAA stands for, National
something association, oceanic,
Tina (18:20):
oceanic, Atmospheric.
Leah (18:23):
something.
Anyways,
Tina (18:26):
Yeah, this consequence is really visible in Hawaii, which
is why so many, I don't know ifit's all the, the entire state
of Hawaii, but there aredefinitely regions where you
can, well, they encourage you,they can't stop anyone from
doing anything, but they highlyencourage you to put on reef
safe sunscreens because it'svisible.
There's so many people justdoing snorkeling, you know, so
(18:49):
many visitors go in and snorkelthat.
Close to the shore, you can seethe consequences of all the
years of people going in withsunscreens that were killing the
coral.
And killing a lot of the, thelife.
So there's like dead zonesalmost.
as opposed to if you go fartherout where people aren't so
heavily populating the area, youcan see how lush the life is
underneath.
So, yeah.
(19:09):
So it's great that they, thatthey did that.
They finally took that stepbecause this has been kind of an
issue behind the scenes for acouple of decades, a few
decades, I'm sure, since thesesunscreens came out.
So it's good that they'reproactively.
Changing what people, it's allthe same.
I mean, they work just as wellas ones that kill the reefs.
So why not save the reefs?
I mean, it's not, it's kind of ano brainer.
Leah (19:29):
in Europe, they've done more testing on different types
of sun filters and they do havecoral reef safe, products.
And so they are more expensive.
You're ordering them fromoverseas.
You're going to pay for shippingand all of that.
Tina (19:40):
And does the environmental working group have a list of
safer brands?
Leah (19:46):
So yeah, the environmental working group has a cosmetic
database where they list thedifferent products and they list
the ingredients and there's adifferent rating based on all of
the ingredients.
And I think it can be a littlealarming to some people.
Um, you'll see something thathas a little green, like.
Thumbs up kind of label, andit'll still say that this
(20:09):
contains ingredients that mightincrease your risk of cancer or
allergies or anything like that.
But it's it's all just,information.
It's probably at higher doses orused in another capacity that
that might be a chemical or acompound that is dangerous for
you.
So I don't like people to thinkof the environmental working
group.
(20:29):
website Um, I don't see it aslike a gospel, it's just more of
a guide.
so I'm, I'm comfortable withsomething that has a three
rating and the three rating maynot necessarily be a green
rating, but I think it's safefor um, you know, just for
everyday appropriate use.
Tina (20:48):
what's their scale when you say three rating on there?
Leah (20:51):
So the scale is from one to ten, one being best, ten
being worst.
So the, the green is One andtwo, and then the yellow, which
is kind of the caution is thethree to six.
And so that's why I like I'mcomfortable using something
that's three or four, as long asI'm using it appropriately and
I'm not going in excess and itdepends on what the chemicals
(21:13):
are.
and then when you get to seven,eight, nine and ten, those are
the worst.
Tina (21:18):
Okay, so I'll give you my take.
'cause what we haven't talkedabout is just blocking the sun.
So I have a, a bevy of strawhats, and I wear them,
especially if I'm just workingoutside and I don't care what I
look like.
I have a nice big, broad strawhat for that.
I've got a couple of what Iwould consider decent looking,
public facing, straw hats, Andthen, um.
(21:41):
I cover up.
you know, you can wear longsleeves that are actually made
for UV.
So if you're going to be outlike kayaking or something like
that, cover yourself up withsomething light.
Um, and it doesn't keep youwarmer if you have the right
material and it's lightweight.
And then I do use the sunscreensbecause I am just vain enough to
not really want photo aging onmy face.
(22:03):
Um, so I'll use them more on myface.
And don't forget your ears Causeyour ears are a common place for
various skin cancers to happen.
Squamous cell and basal cell asyou age, especially.
So the top of your nose, top ofyour ears and your, you know,
which is called décollage,
Leah (22:19):
Well, that's your neck.
But then the, what is it,décolletage, something, the
upper chest.
Tina (22:25):
It's some French word we can't say.
I don't know
Leah (22:26):
That's right, we can look it up, but we're not going to,
um, so yeah, so, so definitelyavoiding the sun, whether it's
covering up or even justavoiding those prime sun hours,
depending on where you live, um,usually it's like 10 a.
m.
to 4 p.
m.
Back in the day, those were thetanning hours
Tina (22:46):
Duck away for the prime tanning hours or find, yeah,
just find some shade.
Really?
Leah (22:51):
Just find some shade.
Uh, I've seen people evencarrying umbrellas, which I
think is just so cool.
Like carrying a parasol toprotect yourself from the sun.
It's a great idea.
It's used to be done back in theday.
Let's bring it back.
Tina (23:04):
Yeah.
A true Oregonians don't own themthough.
Leah (23:06):
I've seen people in the summer in Oregon, in Portland,
carrying umbrellas more than Ido see them using it for rain.
Yeah, no, totally.
Tina (23:14):
that's true.
Leah (23:15):
Yeah.
No, they're, what I don'tunderstand are baseball caps
because.
I have a few baseball caps thatI've gotten as gifts.
they're horrible with blockingthe sun.
They're not about blocking thesun.
Tina (23:27):
Just for your eyes.
Leah (23:29):
Just for your eyes.
What I like are, I have seensome people wearing these giant
visors, you know, the visor,like, you know, the tennis
Tina (23:36):
Oh yeah.
Leah (23:37):
Chrissy Everett kind of, you know, visor thing, but
they're huge.
I kind of like those.
Tina (23:43):
Yeah.
I wouldn't be caught dead in one
Leah (23:45):
I might, I mean, I might be caught dead or alive wearing
one of them.
Oh.
Tina (23:50):
That's not my look.
if I do wear a ball cap outthere, it's mostly because, I
don't have prescriptivesunglasses, so I want to block
the sun there and I'll putsunscreen on my face and neck
and ears and stuff, cause I knowit's not really protecting me.
Leah (24:02):
Okay.
So when you say sunscreen, doyou mean like the organic
sunscreen or the inorganic withthe zinc
Tina (24:08):
I tend to use the inorganic zinc or titanium.
Leah (24:11):
Okay.
And in my training, I was alwayslike encouraged to call those
sun block because they areblocking the skin.
Tina (24:17):
Yes.
yeah, it's a physical barrier tothe rays.
Leah (24:20):
it's a physical barrier.
another time I think that peopleneed to be really careful with
the sun is driving, because theycan take pictures, to show photo
aging and typically one person'slike the side of their face is
More aged than the other side.
I see that on myself and that'sthe driver's side.
So you're We're windows aren'tprotecting you from these rays
(24:45):
and so make sure that you use anappropriate amount of the
sunblock when you're driving
Tina (24:52):
Yeah.
And you know, we were talkingabout this before we got on here
and, and, the official partyline out there looks to me like
they talk about tanning almostas an equivalent to burning.
And I think of them as twototally different things.
When you get a sunburn, nomatter where you get it, how you
get it, whether you havesunscreen on or not, it's
(25:12):
inflammatory.
It's damaging literally, and itcreates an inflammatory state in
the, in the skin.
And so to me, doing thatrepeatedly and certainly doing
it at an early age.
Um, and more severely, all ofthose things are going to be
additive in your risk forvarious skin cancers, whether
it's melanoma or basal cell orsquamous cell.
(25:32):
I think of that very differentthan, for example, you go out a
lot and you don't burn and youtan and your skin gets darker,
whatever your base you startwith, um, if you are someone who
does tan and can do it withoutburning, right?
you remember that when we wereyoung, we do that too, that
everyone would go out and get abase.
(25:53):
Burn so that the rest of thetanning was faster.
Not that.
I'm saying never burn.
Burning is not good, but slowlyincreasing your pigmentation
seems to be a protective thingbecause darker skin is more
protected than lighter skin asfar as Skin cancers go.
It's not impossible.
It's just more protected.
Leah (26:12):
Well, there are, there are people who really cannot have
any sun exposure and there is achart that again, we can put in
the show notes, the link to thattalks about the types of skin
you know, it's based on eyecolor and skin color and hair
color and what your exposure is.
To the sun can be, and it'stypically the sun, you know,
(26:33):
unprotected and it's anywherefrom five minutes to 20 minutes
is what can be, you know, thereare some people who can look at
a picture of a sun and get asunburn.
You know, I mean, they're thatsensitive.
I'm being, I'm being a littlesilly here, but you know,
they're, they are thatsensitive.
And so if you are, I mean, Ithink these people know who they
(26:54):
are, right?
They, they know how sensitivethey are and they typically try
to avoid the sun.
Yeah.
I don't recommend somebody likethat going out with any, without
any sort of sun protection,whether it is a sunblock or
clothing and a hat.
Tina (27:08):
Yes, I think fair skinned people know who they are though.
I mean they know that they burnfast
Leah (27:13):
Yeah, but you know, you get in a, you know, I think of
spring break, right?
Like spring break in high schooland everybody came back burned.
Even the fair redheads, youknow, were burned to a crisp
because you're outside andyou're partying and you're
having a great time and you'reyoung.
Tina (27:28):
Oh yeah, yeah, so I can think of a vacation.
I took with my partner and wewere at the pool and there was
a, a woman who was sleeping,passed out.
I'm not sure, but let's just saythe redness of her skin hurt to
just look at it.
And I was like, I got to wakeher up.
I got to, someone's got to tellher she's got to get out of the
sun.
She's just sitting there bakingmore and more.
And I was like, oh my God, it itwas going to be so painful once
(27:51):
she was either sober or awake.
I'm not sure.
Leah (27:54):
You just want to move an umbrella over her and like cover
with like a wet towel,
Tina (27:59):
I was kind of glancing at the people she was with like,
uh, hello, No one's doinganything.
Leah (28:03):
Oh, I remember years ago being at a pool in Vegas and,
you know, you start looking ateverybody and their, you know,
their, their skin.
I, I'm always looking atpeople's skin.
I'm not judging.
I'm just looking.
And somebody had on the bottomof their foot, the scariest
looking mole.
And I just remember staring atthat from across the pool.
Maybe it was a birthmark, but Ijust remember thinking like,
(28:26):
Ooh, I hope they know what thatis.
I hope they get that checkedout.
Tina (28:39):
You know, when we talk about various regions and
different skin types and stuff,we can see this in the stats,
the differences in melanomarates, especially, and New
Zealand and Australia haveextremely high rates of skin
cancer.
And there's a couple reasons.
So people who are from there orlive there will have higher
(28:59):
rates of Um, various skincancers, including melanoma, and
it has to do with the fact thatwhen they have their summer,
it's actually more UV comingthrough to them than when the
northern hemisphere has itssummer.
And so there's actually a higherUV.
Radiation reaching the earth'ssurface because of the
elliptical pattern and, and whenthe winter hits.
(29:22):
And so I thought that was reallyinteresting cause it's, it's
like twice as much as, theUnited States or other European
countries.
And then after that, it's likelike Norway and Sweden, the
Netherlands, Germany, they'reall much higher incident rates.
And it has to do with, fairerskin in those regions.
Leah (29:38):
Fairer skin and then location on the planet.
And the proximity to those rays.
Um, is there anything thatpeople can do besides wearing
the clothing?
Um, I think if someone has had alot of sun exposure, you know,
as always like eatingantioxidant rich foods, colorful
foods, really important.
(29:59):
I remember when I was younger,this is way younger.
Someone said, when you get a lotof sun exposure, you should come
inside and, you should eattomatoes.
I think it was because of likethe vitamin C and the
antioxidants, but it was justsomething that I did like in my
teens, you know, in earlytwenties is like, Oh, if you get
sun exposure, just make sure youeat tomatoes.
(30:21):
And it kind of corresponds,right?
I mean, summertime tomatoes areripe, grab a tomato.
Um, I think also that, not doingthings like drinking a lot of
alcohol when you're out in thesun, because that's going to
dehydrate your skin as well, um,you, you know, you might not
necessarily reapply thesunscreen.
(30:43):
Um, yeah, I'm just trying tothink of like certain things, if
there's anything I don't know ifthere's anything proven
Tina (30:50):
I always think of vitamin D status, the irony of this,
right?
People with lower vitamin Dlevels have, there's a higher
risk factor for melanoma.
So, Vitamin D deficiency isconsidered a risk factor.
Of course, vitamin D comes fromsunshine.
So, this is the conundrum,right?
We tell people, don't get toomuch sun, but get enough to get
(31:10):
your vitamin D.
And, you know, we all say 15minutes a day.
Depends a little bit on yourlatitude.
this is why I go back to, youknow, Don't let your skin get
damaged.
You do want some sunshine.
I mean, sunshine is good foryour circadian rhythm.
Sunlight is one of the ways thatwe set our diurnal patterns in
ourselves.
Our, our entire body relies onSunlight and night to know what
(31:32):
24 hours is.
And so.
We don't want to go without it.
We don't want to always be inthe dark.
sunshine is, you know, it's anelement of good health to us.
I mean, it's as important asclean air.
So we do want to get sunshine.
We just don't want to damage ourskin in the process.
So that's where you have to beindividual in how you treat
this.
Like one person can be out theretwo hours, no problem.
(31:53):
Another person, 20 minutes isall they can do without, you
know, risking a sunburn.
Leah (31:58):
or less, yeah, or, or, or less.
And so don't, if, if someone isreading, oh, 15 minutes of
unprotected sun to get myvitamin D, That might not be
true for that person.
It may be just five minutes, andit might not be true at all,
because they might live inOregon in the winter, where
you're not gonna get any.
Tina (32:18):
Yeah.
And, And, if you did, you know,burn a lot when you were young,
for example, for variousreasons, you wanted to get that
tan and you didn't have the skintype for it, but you tried
anyways, then, Know that thatrisk factor is already in the
bank, and you want to be evenmore careful as you go forward,
and I would say, you make anappointment with a dermatologist
every once in a while, dependingon your age and where you are
(32:40):
and, you know, your access tothat, but if you can get a skin
check, I would say 50 years old,you get a baseline skin check,
and then the dermatologist willtell you, you know, whether
you're high risk, low risk,whether you should come back in,
a year or six months or fiveyears.
I mean, it depends, but I thinkthis goes in my column of like,
when you turn 50 of things totake care of, give yourself a
(33:01):
couple of years to do it.
But you should have had yourcolonoscopy.
You should have at least abaseline DEXA scan, get some
blood work done.
I mean, you just, if you can, ifyou have access to such things
and you can make them happen,then I think it's important
Leah (33:13):
I, I, I would say before 50, if you have a history of a
lot of burns as a child, and alot of sun exposure, I have seen
patients with melanoma who aresuper young, so I would say if,
yeah, if you have any sort ofblistering burn history, find a
dermatologist, get mole checksregularly, I mean it's, you
(33:34):
know, if you have tanning bedhistory, just do that.
Tina (33:37):
And do self checks too.
Right.
I mean, interestingly, you know,I went to the dermatologist,
they don't check my nethers, youknow, so you have to do some
self checks too.
Leah (33:47):
Um, one thing I do want to add, which we didn't cover, um,
is SPF.
Tina (33:53):
What it means.
Leah (33:53):
Yeah, so when you go to the store, you don't really see
like SPF 4 so much anymore, it'salways SPF 30, SPF 50, 70, 100.
Are those higher numbers better?
When I was a kid, I rememberedlearning that SPF 4 meant you
could stay out in the sun fourtimes longer.
SPF 8 meant you could stay outin the sun eight times longer.
(34:16):
That's not true.
It has to do more with The, thedosage of the sun that you're
getting, it's actually theminimal erythema dose, the med
value that they look at, andthey compare the med value of
protected skin and the med valueof unprotected skin.
(34:37):
And that's how they come upwith, the SPF value.
and that was a big concern withsome of the, um, With some of
the more popular brands ofsunscreen as well, is that their
stated SPF value wasn't what wasin the product.
So the bottle said one thingthat that was an issue that had
come up as well.
(34:58):
and also the issue of balance,because you want to to find
something that says broadspectrum.
And so it covers all the UVrays.
It's not just blocking one orthe other.
And so that was another concern.
So you know, if you're not doingthe mineral ones, the mineral
sun blocks, look for Europeansunscreens.
They're supposed to be, they,they are, the EU is a lot
(35:21):
stricter.
With their regulations in termsof, safety and, like I mentioned
with the coral reefs and marinelife, but also making sure that
their products are.
what they say they are.
Tina (35:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And no matter what you use orwhat you do, just be cognizant
of it too.
I mean, just know that you'reout there in the peak hours or
know your own limits.
I feel like each of us could bemore.
I used a, I used a brand thatwill remain unnamed that when I
put it on, I swear to God, itmade me burn faster.
(35:54):
It was supposed to be asunscreen.
It was, you know, eco friendly,yada, yada, fill in the blanks.
It was zinc based.
I know that I felt like I putoil on myself or something.
I got darker faster.
I don't think it did what thelabel claimed it did.
So I'm just saying that becauseno matter what you get, you
know, if there's going to befalse labels out there or
anything like that, you probablyknow yourself better than
(36:16):
anything and just don't, don'tlet it happen.
Just wear another layer, go intothe shade, put on a hat.
I to me, that's more reliable.
I know if you're on a boat oryou're swimming, you can't do
all those things.
So you have to use sunscreensome of the time, but I feel
like protecting yourself fromthe rays is going to be more
reliable in the grand scheme ofthings.
Leah (36:34):
And I, I've been trying to do both.
I mean, I think I've been prettycareless throughout the years
and you know, I'm one wherevanity, I mean, it's, it's,
it's.
It's a reality in my life and Ikind of wish because I have
noticed, especially living inArizona, having the more sun
damage on one side of my face.
I wish I was more diligent.
I use like the makeup like BBcreams and moisturizers that
(36:59):
have sunscreen in them, butyou're not applying enough of it
in order to actually make iteffective.
I now have like a stick.
It looks like a little tinydeodorant stick and it's really
thick and I apply that.
I don't care if my face is twoshades whiter than the rest of
my, you know, my face, ears andneck.
I don't care.
I'm at the age where I justdon't care.
(37:19):
Um, and I know that's not goingto work for everybody, because I
am a type 3 skin, and so I dohave lighter skin.
Tina (37:28):
Wait, what's type three skin?
That
Leah (37:31):
so, you want to go through the types?
Okay.
So the types are, type 1 skinis, it's very light skin.
It often has freckles, um,usually the person has reddish
or strawberry blonde hair.
Their eyes are very light, blueor gray.
type two skin is light skin,freckles, blonde or brown hair.
(37:52):
Eye colors can be anything.
Type three skin is light orlight brown skin, rarely with
freckles, dark blonde or brownhair, gray or brown eyes.
Tina (38:03):
sounds like me.
Wait, was that three?
Leah (38:05):
No, that's three.
I think you're four.
Tina (38:07):
okay.
Leah (38:08):
Four is light brown or olive colored skin, no freckles,
dark brown hair, brown or darkbrown eyes.
I think that's you.
Um, type five is dark brownskin, dark brown or black hair,
and dark brown eyes.
And then type six is dark brownor black skin, black hair and
dark brown eyes.
(38:28):
So a big problem with thesemineral.
Inorganic sunblocks is thedarker the complexion, the more
obvious it is.
Some of the products doeventually sink into your skin,
but, um, there are mineral basedsunblocks that are.
(38:50):
Made specifically for darkercomplexions.
And so I'll try to look some up.
People probably know this betterthan I do.
I'm just going to look and seewhat is recommended by,
dermatologists on the webs.
But if you know a product, thencomment.
Let me know what your favoriteproduct is.
Because not everybody wants tolook like Spicoli.
Tina (39:12):
No, that's, that's helpful because those skin types are
what I'm talking about when Isay we each need to know our
own, limits to our sun exposure.
And that's your skin type will,have a lot to do with how much
you can be exposed, if at all,to sunshine before you get sun
damage.
Leah (39:27):
And I think, I mean, I don't have the statistics in
front of me, but I think peoplethink that, oh, I naturally have
a darker complexion, that Idon't need this, this sun
protection.
And you do.
I think the statistic formelanoma is like one in a
thousand.
For somebody with black skin,that's still a lot of people,
(39:48):
you know, I mean, it soundslike, oh, well, that's not so
bad, but that still is a lot ofpeople.
And, and somebody has got to bethat one.
So it's better to be safe.
And don't think that justbecause you're dark, darker
complexion, that it'snecessarily going to, um,
protect you.
So make sure you're wearing thatbig broad hat, make sure you're,
you know, wearing the longsleeve clothing and avoiding sun
during those hours.
Tina (40:09):
Yeah, and you know how I opened this with the fact that
there is more incidence ofmelanoma in Oregon than Texas?
But, people are more likely todie of melanoma in Texas than in
Oregon.
Mm hmm.
Leah (40:21):
What
Tina (40:22):
Mortality rates are higher from melanoma in Texas than they
are in Oregon, even though theincidence is higher in Oregon.
So What that tells you, it's,it's, it's caught early here
Leah (40:32):
I was going to say this detection.
Yeah.
Tina (40:33):
yes, that has to do with early detection because I think
right now for stage onemelanoma, 94 point something
percent have no recurrence afterfive years.
So it's a, it's a pretty solidstatistic and, and if it's let
go to later stages, then thosepercentages go down
significantly.
So, yeah, so that's why we'reinto screening, of course,
(40:54):
right?
This is why we talk about it,you and I, is making sure that
you do self checks and, uh, ifyou see anything change in a
mole or a new mole come up or asensation that's new, that
suddenly itches and it never didbefore, always get it checked
out.
It doesn't hurt.
Leah (41:08):
Um, and lotions actually are apparently the better form
to use.
So I don't know about my waxystick, but, lotions are better
than the sprays.
And I have found a product thatis a mineral based spray.
And with minerals, you want tomake sure that it's not the nano
minerals, because the nanominerals are also harmful to the
(41:29):
marine life.
Tina (41:30):
Well, and I think they're small enough to absorb.
Leah (41:32):
Well, there you go.
Tina (41:33):
I don't really want the titanium being absorbed.
You know, it's just not one ofthose things I want much of.
Zinc?
All right.
I can probably get over thatone.
But
Leah (41:42):
I think, I think they're more appealing because they'll
sink in more and you know,you're not having the, the, the
little glow, but I think of itas a base layer and then I put
my tinted moisturizer on top itdoesn't actually increase your
protection by using like 30sunblock and then putting a 30,
moisturizer on top of that.
That it's not added.
Tina (42:02):
it doesn't, it doesn't give you 60, 30 plus 30.
Leah (42:04):
It's not additive.
No, unfortunately.
And I just want to add one morething.
If you are going throughchemotherapy, immunotherapy,
check and see if even being inthe sun is safe.
Tina (42:17):
Yes.
And that's true of a lot ofmedications.
Actually, there's a lot ofmedications that make you
photosensitive.
And
Leah (42:23):
Yeah, because that, that, that is a big thing that can
make you more, more sensitive tothe sun and you can get a bad
burn.
Tina (42:30):
Yeah, nothing will protect you except shade.
Leah (42:33):
Make sure you check out the episode we did on vitamin D.
We'll put a link to that in theshow notes.
And, um, yeah, if you have anyquestions about anything that
we've talked about, then, yeah.
Definitely drop us a note.
You can email us at the cancerpod at gmail.
com.
You can go to our website andthere is a place where you can
(42:55):
click on a little button, you'llsee it off to the right side of
the screen and you can record usa message, yeah.
Tina (43:03):
Yeah, record a message that we can play on the air.
That would be fun
Leah (43:05):
No, one's recorded us a message.
we do get we get messagesthrough our website.
Tina (43:11):
Yes, no audio.
Leah (43:13):
No audio yet.
Tina (43:14):
Maybe everyone listening is an introvert.
They don't want to be aired.
Leah (43:18):
listening whoever's listening right now, go to the
website, thecancerpod.
com.
Find the little microphone, onthe right hand side, click on it
and leave us a message.
Say hi.
I was listening to your episode.
I'm leaving you a message.
That's all you have to do.
Or you could say, disagree witheverything you said,
Tina (43:40):
But I still listened to the end and heard this
Leah (43:42):
but I listened all the way through.
Tina (43:45):
So here I am.
Leah (43:47):
On that note, I'm Dr.
Leah Sherman,
Tina (43:49):
And I'm Dr.
Tina Kaeser.
Leah (43:51):
and this is the Cancer Pod.
Tina (43:52):
Until next time.
Leah (44:26):
That'll do, pig.
Tina (44:29):
It'll do.
And that is where melanona Mel.
(00:03):
Who's What did I just say?
Melanona.
Tina (00:05):
I think I know
Leah (00:06):
Who is she?
Tina (00:08):
I'm Dr Tina Kaczor and as Leah likes to say I'm the
science-y one
Leah (00:12):
and I'm Dr Leah Sherman and on the cancer inside
Tina (00:16):
And we're two naturopathic doctors who practice integrative
cancer care
Leah (00:20):
But we're not your doctors
Tina (00:22):
This is for education entertainment and informational
purposes only do not apply anyof this information
Leah (00:29):
without first speaking to your doctor
Tina (00:31):
The views and opinions expressed on this podcast by the
hosts and their guests aresolely their own
Leah (00:37):
Welcome to the cancer pod Hey, Tina,
Tina (00:57):
Hi, Leah.
Leah (00:58):
I know you don't have the TikTok, but there was this trend
going around.
I don't know if you saw it inthe news where I guess a bunch
of influencers were talkingabout sunscreen and how it's bad
for you and you shouldn't, theywere kind of promoting not using
sunscreen.
Did you hear about that?
I didn't think so.
Tina (01:17):
My knowledge of TikTok is pretty, it's pretty narrow.
Leah (01:21):
I know, but it was, it was making, like, The rounds in the
news, because it is concerning,um, something I learned is that
Gen Z gets a lot of their healthinformation from social media.
So I'm assuming from TikTok,what is even more interesting is
when I searched to find theseanti sunscreen videos, all I
found were anti, antidermatologists and other
(01:46):
influencers talking about, Oh,no, no, no.
This is what.
You know, the science shows, orthis is what is safe, or I'm
just promoting this product.
You know, how they all kind oftry to sell you something.
Anyways, I thought that wasreally interesting.
and it kind of drove me to thinkthat we should talk about just
sun safety in general.
Tina (02:07):
Yeah.
Tis the season.
Leah (02:09):
is the season.
Yes.
Um, where I'm at right now, it'snot sunny, but that doesn't
really matter when it comes tosun safety.
Tina (02:17):
No, because in preparing for this, I saw that there's
actually higher rates of someskin cancers, like melanoma, in
Oregon than there is in Texas.
Leah (02:27):
That is really surprising.
but I can see that because atleast when I lived in Arizona,
nobody went outside in themiddle of the summer because
it's 450 degrees Fahrenheit.
Uh, and so in Oregon, people arelike, Oh, it's, you know, it's,
it's not sunny out.
So I could, I definitely couldsee that.
I also think, I don't know aboutany more, but I know when I
(02:48):
first moved to Portland, therewas a lot of tanning booths.
Tina (02:52):
Hmm.
Yeah.
So a lot of people miss theirsunshine and their rays, so they
go and sit in a tanning bed.
Leah (02:58):
Right.
And so I don't know with all ofthe regulations that, um, went
down with tanning beds.
I don't know if that'snecessarily the truth anymore,
but I can see that because ofthe, the overcast weather,
people think they're safe.
Tina (03:11):
Yeah.
Yeah, and we tend to get oursunshine in consecutive days and
months, and then we lose allsunshine for several months.
So there's like, it's notintermittent throughout the
year, where I grew up in upstateNew York, there was, it was some
sunshine in the wintertime aswell as the summertime.
it was parsed out through the 12months of the year, a little bit
more steadily, and here in theNorthwest, we get it or we
(03:36):
don't.
Oh,
Leah (03:39):
you know, my, my own social media that as soon as
there's a sunny day, peoplestart posting pictures of their
sunburns.
know, people in the Portlandarea start doing that.
So I think that's the thing too,right?
It's the first sunny day andeveryone runs out in shorts and
a tank top and.
Tina (03:56):
absolutely.
Absolutely.
Leah (03:57):
Or they're gardening and then it was like, they're beet
rad.
So.
Tina (04:00):
Yeah.
It might be 55 degrees out, butif the sun is shining, people
are wearing shorts.
Leah (04:05):
Yeah, not me, but, but people do.
Yes, that is very true.
Not me.
I'm still, I'm in a fleece rightnow.
Um, so yeah, I think, you know,you mentioned the skin cancer
thing, and I think that issomething a lot of people, you
know, obviously relate to with,sun exposure, and I think that's
a really important thing, thatsome people think in terms of
(04:26):
skin cancer, like, Oh, basalcell squamous cell, those are,
those are like, you know, I'mputting big finger quotes, easy
cancers, they're not necessarilydangerous.
And that's not necessarily true.
Tina (04:39):
No.
Caught early.
Generally, that is a very goodprognosis, caught early squamous
cell cancers of the skin andbasal cell carcinomas of the
skin and even melanoma.
When it's caught early, in itsearliest stages, is very good
prognosis because surgically youcan remove the whole thing.
But it can get sneaky sometimestoo.
Leah (05:00):
Oh, absolutely.
And the thing with these skincancers is that you're not
necessarily just removing, youknow, especially with melanoma,
you're not just removing justthe mole.
Like they're going to make ahuge cut to make sure they're
getting the depth and themargins that they need.
Absolutely.
Tina (05:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I would say right off thebat, if someone suspects a
melanoma, go to a dermatologist.
If you're getting a skin check,you know, primary care
physicians are okay.
I'll include myself in thatbasket.
We're decent at recognizingthings, but nothing replaces a
good dermatologist because theycan usually on sight and
certainly with a biopsy,identify any skin lesions.
(05:40):
So they're, they're just very,very good at it.
Even, even by sight.
Leah (05:44):
And I would recommend, just from having worked, um,
years ago with one of the mostprominent melanoma researchers
at the time, when you go to thedoctor, if you think something
is suspicious, don't let themjust do a shave biopsy, because
he was finding that a lot of thedermatologists in the area were
(06:07):
doing shave biopsies ofsomething that Came back as
melanoma.
And so, yeah, it's just kind ofadvocating for yourself and
making sure, and if you have areally tiny, tiny mole and it's
suspicious and somebody is like,well, it doesn't meet the
criteria because it has to be ofa certain size, you know, like
the eraser head size that wetalked about in another episode,
(06:27):
I would advocate for you to haveit removed and get biopsied
because it has to startsomewhere.
Like, it's not like it's goingto necessarily magically appear
and be the size of an eraserhead.
Tina (06:39):
Yeah.
And there is, I'm just going tosay the A, B, C, D, E of
melanoma, right?
There's the asymmetry and thathas to do with the, the shape of
it.
Is it asymmetrical or is itsymmetrical?
There's the border.
Are they regular and nice andsmooth?
Are they irregular borders wherethey're a little, either looking
cauliflower or a little off?
Um, the color, you know, colorchanges, especially if it gets
(07:00):
hyperpigmented, but not allmelanomas have pigment.
That can be challenging.
Some melanomas aren't dark.
And then.
The diameter, which you'vealready mentioned, uh, size of a
number two pencil eraser is, iskind of our limit and evolving.
So I think the one you were justmentioning is if it's evolving,
if you have this little tinything that suddenly gets bigger
or suddenly starts itching,changes shape or color or
(07:22):
border, distinctions, then thatneeds to be looked at.
And I would go straight to adermatologist because in my
experience there have beenPrimary care physicians more
often do a shave biopsy whenthey shouldn't have.
In my private practice, Inoticed that then a
dermatologist, dermatologistswere more likely to take larger
margins, even for the firstbiopsy, if they thought it could
be a melanoma.
Leah (07:43):
So another thing about melanoma, which I don't think
people necessarily think aboutis it's not just the moles that
you see.
I always say melanoma is theskin cancer where the sun don't
shine.
Right?
I mean, it's going to be thebottom of the foot behind the
ear.
You know, people are like, well,I've never had that area exposed
to the sun.
(08:03):
And that is where melanona MelWho's What did I just say?
Melanona
Tina (08:09):
I think I know
Leah (08:09):
Who is she?
And that is where melanoma tendsto appear, you know, gluteal
fold, um, really like under thefingernails, like unusual
places.
Tina (08:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, mucous membranes in themouth, vaginal area, the anus,
could appear anywhere.
And then one that's fairlyunusual, but I feel like we've
been seeing more and more of it,at least anecdotally I've been
seeing more of it, is a uveal,which is in the eye.
UVL melanoma, which is a goodreason to get your eyes checked
every once in a while.
So, cause any, anyone lookinginto your eyes should be able to
(08:42):
see that early on.
So there are different types andyou're right.
Melanoma is more likely to behidden and in areas where the
sun don't shine than squamouscell carcinoma or basal cell
carcinoma which both more oftenappear where the sun has done
damage.
Leah (08:59):
And for those who think, oh, well, this will never happen
to me, um, it's not just cancerrisk.
I mean, you're risking otherthings like increased wrinkles.
And I know that sounds funny,but for some people, premature
aging.
It is more of a concern.
I mean, it's it's just the wayit is.
Um, you can have other growthsappear on your skin as you age,
(09:24):
you know, known as age spots orseborrheic keratoses, which are
kind of those, like, it lookslike it's stuck on.
It's like this plaque kind ofdark or skin colored mass mole.
That's you see on skin that hasbeen, exposed to a lot of sun.
Um, there's a variety of whypeople need to be careful.
Tina (09:44):
Yeah.
I think that photo aging is onethat.
We probably, uh, can emphasize,especially to younger folks,
because it does, over time, haveconsequences, just because UVA,
in particular, penetrates fairlydeep right to the dermis, right
below the epidermis, and thatcan create that rapid aging
effect deeper wrinkles,
Leah (10:04):
So let's talk about UVA versus UVB rays.
And so I always think of UVBrays as the burning rays and
people are like, Oh, well youwant to block that.
No, those are actually theprotective rays.
Tell you, okay, you're gettingtoo much, sun.
Like you need a, you need topull back a little.
And the UVA rays, which are thequote unquote, um, tanning rays
(10:28):
are also the ones that canpromote things like melanoma.
Tina (10:32):
because the melanocytes are in the dermis, and only the
UVA reaches down that far.
The UVB doesn't penetrate theskin as deeply, so they're more
superficial, but they are, likeyou said, I don't know, you call
them protective, I would saythey're more like a sentinel.
Like, you know that you'reburning, because UVB causes that
redness, or You know, the dry,red, and even eventually
(10:56):
blistering of the skin that's,that's warning you that you're
getting too much ultravioletradiation.
Leah (11:01):
What did I say?
Protective or preventive?
Protective?
Well, what I meant was that it'sa, it's a warning.
Yeah.
protective in that it's like atornado siren, right?
It's just protecting you fromwhat may be inevitable.
Tina (11:16):
Yeah.
It's giving you some kind ofidea of what's happening.
Leah (11:19):
It's the tornado siren of your skin.
Okay.
So I found a really interestingstatistic, um, when we were
prepping for this, you mentionedthat there are certain countries
where people are moresusceptible to skin cancer,
melanoma, and one of them isAustralia.
There was a website that talkedabout five blistering sunburns
(11:39):
before the age of 18 increaseyour risk of skin cancer.
Tina (11:43):
Five blistering sunburns by the age of 18.
I'm repeating it because I thinkevery listener can think back to
the, to their own history andask themselves that question.
Did I have blistering sunburnswhen I was young?
Leah (11:56):
And I, I definitely did.
I remember being a little kid.
We went to the beach in SouthernFlorida and my sister and I were
playing in the water and sureenough, I had massive blisters
on my back.
And I can remember a few timesat the pool as well.
Yeah.
I mean, it's not like, well,you've only had four.
You're fine.
You know, it's not, That cut anddry, but definitely thinking
(12:20):
about, um, yeah, your, yourhistory as a kid.
And, you know, back then Iremember like we used
Coppertone, right?
That was the thing that everyoneused back then.
And I don't remember reapplyingit.
Tina (12:35):
Remember?
Bando Soleil for the centralbay, tan, Bando Soleil for the
deep darkening tan.
Leah (12:44):
You know, the whole commercial.
That's amazing.
My aunt used band de soleil andI thought that was so glamorous
and so elegant.
I thought it was like the fancypeople.
Sunscreen.
No, we use the white copper tonewith the little puppy and the
little child on the label.
Yeah.
No, we, we did not usebandosolate.
(13:06):
We did use other weird things asteenagers.
Um, you know, baby oil and allof that, but for sunscreen, it
was always copper tone and Idon't remember reapplying it.
And that is a really importantpart.
Tina (13:19):
I remember the SPF was like two or four.
Leah (13:22):
Yeah, it was like SPF four, right?
Yeah.
There was no SPF 50 back then,so reapplying every two hours is
really important when you comeout of the water, you're
supposed to reapply.
Tina (13:32):
Yes.
Leah (13:33):
If you're doing a sport where you're really perspiring a
lot, reapply.
Tina (13:38):
Yeah.
I think they say it on the labelnow every couple hours and it's
even less on some of them forthe, they have special sports,
SPF 30 or 50 for the water, andit's supposed to be a slightly
waterproof, but they do tell youwhen you come out to reapply,
Leah (13:53):
Yeah, I don't know if people really do that though.
It's kind of like, how much doyou actually apply?
I think people, especially withthe ones that are zinc or
titanium oxide, I think peopletend to apply.
Less because they don't want tolook like, don't know, We're
going to have to put in areference so people are, you
(14:13):
know, people know what Spicoli.
Yeah.
They don't want to look likeSpicoli, but the amount of
sunscreen you're supposed to usefor an average size person,
whatever that may mean is oneounce.
So we're talking a shot glass ofsunscreen.
Tina (14:28):
That's a lot.
Leah (14:29):
That's a lot.
And so at least a quarter of ateaspoon of that is for your
face alone,
Tina (14:35):
From what you told me earlier, some of the tick tock
outrage over these 30 and plussunblockers is what they
contain, like other chemicalcompounds, right?
Leah (14:46):
Oh yeah.
So no, what the, what I saw adermatologist was clarifying is,
I think there was a big concernabout sunscreens cause cancer.
And a few years ago, there was arecall for a bunch of sunscreens
because they had a contaminant,which was benzene.
There is the oxy benzone.
(15:07):
In a lot of sunscreens, that isone of the chemical sunscreens
that protects against the UVArays.
The problem is that there was acontaminant and we will link in
our show notes notes for, youknow, people to look up to if
they do have a sunscreen at homethat they want to know if it was
one of the recalls, if theydidn't hear about that.
And it has a whole list of them.
(15:28):
A lot of them have alreadyexpired.
Um, but there were some thatdidn't expire until like 2024.
So.
Nobody ever throws out theirsunscreen.
I mean, didn't, did you knowthat sunscreen had an expiration
date?
Tina (15:41):
Uh, no.
Leah (15:43):
Yeah.
So sunscreen has an expirationdate.
And this is something else thatI thought was really fascinating
is that the organic and byorganic, I mean, organic
chemicals, like the chemicalsunscreens, the oxybenzones and
the other things that I don'twant to try to pronounce those.
Do expire.
They do degrade over time.
So you do want to, if that's theone that you're using, you do
(16:04):
want to replace those regularly,but the mineral sunblocks, the
titanium dioxide in the zincoxide, those don't expire.
So there is an expiration date.
Cause those are the ones that Ibuy.
And I actually almost threw oneout the other day because I was
like, Oh, it's past itsexpiration date.
And then doing research for thisepisode, I was like, Oh, I don't
have to throw it out.
(16:24):
It's just, you need to have anexpiration date on products.
Tina (16:27):
well that makes sense because those titanium or zinc
ones are actual physicalblockages of the rays.
So they're not going anywhere.
They're metals and they're justthere.
Leah (16:39):
Right.
They're not sinking into yourskin and creating a barrier.
Right.
The other thing about themineral sunblocks is that when
you go in the water.
So there was a study thatcompared the two different
kinds, the organic and theinorganic, inorganic being the
mineral sunscreens that comparedthe two sunscreens in water as a
small study, like 22 people orsomething, and they To see which
(17:04):
still was, you know, moreeffective after an hour and a
half.
And the mineral sunscreens wonout.
So you still need to reapply itit is, it is something that
stays on your body.
Tina (17:14):
Now are they both reef safe?
Leah (17:16):
The mineral sunscreens or sunblocks are, and that's a
really important thing.
Um, what Tina means by reef safeis there was a big movement and
you said in Hawaii, there arecertain sunscreens that are not
allowed.
And what it is, is the chemicalsin these organic sunscreens, by
(17:39):
organic I'm not meaning like thesame thing as like organic food,
um, again, it's just, it's acarbon based sunscreen,
Tina (17:48):
As opposed to mineral based?
Leah (17:49):
opposed to mineral based?
Tina (17:51):
Which is zinc and titanium.
Okay.
Leah (17:53):
right?
Yeah.
No, thanks for clarifying.
Um, Those can affect thefertility of fish.
they can kill coral reefs.
They have killed coral reefs.
Um, they have been found intissues of dolphins.
I mean, the list goes on again.
We could put a link for that init.
The link is through, um, NOAA,which is the, the weather
(18:15):
people, not try to remember whatNOAA stands for, National
something association, oceanic,
Tina (18:20):
oceanic, Atmospheric.
Leah (18:23):
something.
Anyways,
Tina (18:26):
Yeah, this consequence is really visible in Hawaii, which
is why so many, I don't know ifit's all the, the entire state
of Hawaii, but there aredefinitely regions where you
can, well, they encourage you,they can't stop anyone from
doing anything, but they highlyencourage you to put on reef
safe sunscreens because it'svisible.
There's so many people justdoing snorkeling, you know, so
(18:49):
many visitors go in and snorkelthat.
Close to the shore, you can seethe consequences of all the
years of people going in withsunscreens that were killing the
coral.
And killing a lot of the, thelife.
So there's like dead zonesalmost.
as opposed to if you go fartherout where people aren't so
heavily populating the area, youcan see how lush the life is
underneath.
So, yeah.
(19:09):
So it's great that they, thatthey did that.
They finally took that stepbecause this has been kind of an
issue behind the scenes for acouple of decades, a few
decades, I'm sure, since thesesunscreens came out.
So it's good that they'reproactively.
Changing what people, it's allthe same.
I mean, they work just as wellas ones that kill the reefs.
So why not save the reefs?
I mean, it's not, it's kind of ano brainer.
Leah (19:29):
in Europe, they've done more testing on different types
of sun filters and they do havecoral reef safe, products.
And so they are more expensive.
You're ordering them fromoverseas.
You're going to pay for shippingand all of that.
Tina (19:40):
And does the environmental working group have a list of
safer brands?
Leah (19:46):
So yeah, the environmental working group has a cosmetic
database where they list thedifferent products and they list
the ingredients and there's adifferent rating based on all of
the ingredients.
And I think it can be a littlealarming to some people.
Um, you'll see something thathas a little green, like.
Thumbs up kind of label, andit'll still say that this
(20:09):
contains ingredients that mightincrease your risk of cancer or
allergies or anything like that.
But it's it's all just,information.
It's probably at higher doses orused in another capacity that
that might be a chemical or acompound that is dangerous for
you.
So I don't like people to thinkof the environmental working
group.
(20:29):
website Um, I don't see it aslike a gospel, it's just more of
a guide.
so I'm, I'm comfortable withsomething that has a three
rating and the three rating maynot necessarily be a green
rating, but I think it's safefor um, you know, just for
everyday appropriate use.
Tina (20:48):
what's their scale when you say three rating on there?
Leah (20:51):
So the scale is from one to ten, one being best, ten
being worst.
So the, the green is One andtwo, and then the yellow, which
is kind of the caution is thethree to six.
And so that's why I like I'mcomfortable using something
that's three or four, as long asI'm using it appropriately and
I'm not going in excess and itdepends on what the chemicals
(21:13):
are.
and then when you get to seven,eight, nine and ten, those are
the worst.
Tina (21:18):
Okay, so I'll give you my take.
'cause what we haven't talkedabout is just blocking the sun.
So I have a, a bevy of strawhats, and I wear them,
especially if I'm just workingoutside and I don't care what I
look like.
I have a nice big, broad strawhat for that.
I've got a couple of what Iwould consider decent looking,
public facing, straw hats, Andthen, um.
(21:41):
I cover up.
you know, you can wear longsleeves that are actually made
for UV.
So if you're going to be outlike kayaking or something like
that, cover yourself up withsomething light.
Um, and it doesn't keep youwarmer if you have the right
material and it's lightweight.
And then I do use the sunscreensbecause I am just vain enough to
not really want photo aging onmy face.
(22:03):
Um, so I'll use them more on myface.
And don't forget your ears Causeyour ears are a common place for
various skin cancers to happen.
Squamous cell and basal cell asyou age, especially.
So the top of your nose, top ofyour ears and your, you know,
which is called décollage,
Leah (22:19):
Well, that's your neck.
But then the, what is it,décolletage, something, the
upper chest.
Tina (22:25):
It's some French word we can't say.
I don't know
Leah (22:26):
That's right, we can look it up, but we're not going to,
um, so yeah, so, so definitelyavoiding the sun, whether it's
covering up or even justavoiding those prime sun hours,
depending on where you live, um,usually it's like 10 a.
m.
to 4 p.
m.
Back in the day, those were thetanning hours
Tina (22:46):
Duck away for the prime tanning hours or find, yeah,
just find some shade.
Really?
Leah (22:51):
Just find some shade.
Uh, I've seen people evencarrying umbrellas, which I
think is just so cool.
Like carrying a parasol toprotect yourself from the sun.
It's a great idea.
It's used to be done back in theday.
Let's bring it back.
Tina (23:04):
Yeah.
A true Oregonians don't own themthough.
Leah (23:06):
I've seen people in the summer in Oregon, in Portland,
carrying umbrellas more than Ido see them using it for rain.
Yeah, no, totally.
Tina (23:14):
that's true.
Leah (23:15):
Yeah.
No, they're, what I don'tunderstand are baseball caps
because.
I have a few baseball caps thatI've gotten as gifts.
they're horrible with blockingthe sun.
They're not about blocking thesun.
Tina (23:27):
Just for your eyes.
Leah (23:29):
Just for your eyes.
What I like are, I have seensome people wearing these giant
visors, you know, the visor,like, you know, the tennis
Tina (23:36):
Oh yeah.
Leah (23:37):
Chrissy Everett kind of, you know, visor thing, but
they're huge.
I kind of like those.
Tina (23:43):
Yeah.
I wouldn't be caught dead in one
Leah (23:45):
I might, I mean, I might be caught dead or alive wearing
one of them.
Oh.
Tina (23:50):
That's not my look.
if I do wear a ball cap outthere, it's mostly because, I
don't have prescriptivesunglasses, so I want to block
the sun there and I'll putsunscreen on my face and neck
and ears and stuff, cause I knowit's not really protecting me.
Leah (24:02):
Okay.
So when you say sunscreen, doyou mean like the organic
sunscreen or the inorganic withthe zinc
Tina (24:08):
I tend to use the inorganic zinc or titanium.
Leah (24:11):
Okay.
And in my training, I was alwayslike encouraged to call those
sun block because they areblocking the skin.
Tina (24:17):
Yes.
yeah, it's a physical barrier tothe rays.
Leah (24:20):
it's a physical barrier.
another time I think that peopleneed to be really careful with
the sun is driving, because theycan take pictures, to show photo
aging and typically one person'slike the side of their face is
More aged than the other side.
I see that on myself and that'sthe driver's side.
So you're We're windows aren'tprotecting you from these rays
(24:45):
and so make sure that you use anappropriate amount of the
sunblock when you're driving
Tina (24:52):
Yeah.
And you know, we were talkingabout this before we got on here
and, and, the official partyline out there looks to me like
they talk about tanning almostas an equivalent to burning.
And I think of them as twototally different things.
When you get a sunburn, nomatter where you get it, how you
get it, whether you havesunscreen on or not, it's
(25:12):
inflammatory.
It's damaging literally, and itcreates an inflammatory state in
the, in the skin.
And so to me, doing thatrepeatedly and certainly doing
it at an early age.
Um, and more severely, all ofthose things are going to be
additive in your risk forvarious skin cancers, whether
it's melanoma or basal cell orsquamous cell.
(25:32):
I think of that very differentthan, for example, you go out a
lot and you don't burn and youtan and your skin gets darker,
whatever your base you startwith, um, if you are someone who
does tan and can do it withoutburning, right?
you remember that when we wereyoung, we do that too, that
everyone would go out and get abase.
(25:53):
Burn so that the rest of thetanning was faster.
Not that.
I'm saying never burn.
Burning is not good, but slowlyincreasing your pigmentation
seems to be a protective thingbecause darker skin is more
protected than lighter skin asfar as Skin cancers go.
It's not impossible.
It's just more protected.
Leah (26:12):
Well, there are, there are people who really cannot have
any sun exposure and there is achart that again, we can put in
the show notes, the link to thattalks about the types of skin
you know, it's based on eyecolor and skin color and hair
color and what your exposure is.
To the sun can be, and it'stypically the sun, you know,
(26:33):
unprotected and it's anywherefrom five minutes to 20 minutes
is what can be, you know, thereare some people who can look at
a picture of a sun and get asunburn.
You know, I mean, they're thatsensitive.
I'm being, I'm being a littlesilly here, but you know,
they're, they are thatsensitive.
And so if you are, I mean, Ithink these people know who they
(26:54):
are, right?
They, they know how sensitivethey are and they typically try
to avoid the sun.
Yeah.
I don't recommend somebody likethat going out with any, without
any sort of sun protection,whether it is a sunblock or
clothing and a hat.
Tina (27:08):
Yes, I think fair skinned people know who they are though.
I mean they know that they burnfast
Leah (27:13):
Yeah, but you know, you get in a, you know, I think of
spring break, right?
Like spring break in high schooland everybody came back burned.
Even the fair redheads, youknow, were burned to a crisp
because you're outside andyou're partying and you're
having a great time and you'reyoung.
Tina (27:28):
Oh yeah, yeah, so I can think of a vacation.
I took with my partner and wewere at the pool and there was
a, a woman who was sleeping,passed out.
I'm not sure, but let's just saythe redness of her skin hurt to
just look at it.
And I was like, I got to wakeher up.
I got to, someone's got to tellher she's got to get out of the
sun.
She's just sitting there bakingmore and more.
And I was like, oh my God, it itwas going to be so painful once
(27:51):
she was either sober or awake.
I'm not sure.
Leah (27:54):
You just want to move an umbrella over her and like cover
with like a wet towel,
Tina (27:59):
I was kind of glancing at the people she was with like,
uh, hello, No one's doinganything.
Leah (28:03):
Oh, I remember years ago being at a pool in Vegas and,
you know, you start looking ateverybody and their, you know,
their, their skin.
I, I'm always looking atpeople's skin.
I'm not judging.
I'm just looking.
And somebody had on the bottomof their foot, the scariest
looking mole.
And I just remember staring atthat from across the pool.
Maybe it was a birthmark, but Ijust remember thinking like,
(28:26):
Ooh, I hope they know what thatis.
I hope they get that checkedout.
Tina (28:39):
You know, when we talk about various regions and
different skin types and stuff,we can see this in the stats,
the differences in melanomarates, especially, and New
Zealand and Australia haveextremely high rates of skin
cancer.
And there's a couple reasons.
So people who are from there orlive there will have higher
(28:59):
rates of Um, various skincancers, including melanoma, and
it has to do with the fact thatwhen they have their summer,
it's actually more UV comingthrough to them than when the
northern hemisphere has itssummer.
And so there's actually a higherUV.
Radiation reaching the earth'ssurface because of the
elliptical pattern and, and whenthe winter hits.
(29:22):
And so I thought that was reallyinteresting cause it's, it's
like twice as much as, theUnited States or other European
countries.
And then after that, it's likelike Norway and Sweden, the
Netherlands, Germany, they'reall much higher incident rates.
And it has to do with, fairerskin in those regions.
Leah (29:38):
Fairer skin and then location on the planet.
And the proximity to those rays.
Um, is there anything thatpeople can do besides wearing
the clothing?
Um, I think if someone has had alot of sun exposure, you know,
as always like eatingantioxidant rich foods, colorful
foods, really important.
(29:59):
I remember when I was younger,this is way younger.
Someone said, when you get a lotof sun exposure, you should come
inside and, you should eattomatoes.
I think it was because of likethe vitamin C and the
antioxidants, but it was justsomething that I did like in my
teens, you know, in earlytwenties is like, Oh, if you get
sun exposure, just make sure youeat tomatoes.
(30:21):
And it kind of corresponds,right?
I mean, summertime tomatoes areripe, grab a tomato.
Um, I think also that, not doingthings like drinking a lot of
alcohol when you're out in thesun, because that's going to
dehydrate your skin as well, um,you, you know, you might not
necessarily reapply thesunscreen.
(30:43):
Um, yeah, I'm just trying tothink of like certain things, if
there's anything I don't know ifthere's anything proven
Tina (30:50):
I always think of vitamin D status, the irony of this,
right?
People with lower vitamin Dlevels have, there's a higher
risk factor for melanoma.
So, Vitamin D deficiency isconsidered a risk factor.
Of course, vitamin D comes fromsunshine.
So, this is the conundrum,right?
We tell people, don't get toomuch sun, but get enough to get
(31:10):
your vitamin D.
And, you know, we all say 15minutes a day.
Depends a little bit on yourlatitude.
this is why I go back to, youknow, Don't let your skin get
damaged.
You do want some sunshine.
I mean, sunshine is good foryour circadian rhythm.
Sunlight is one of the ways thatwe set our diurnal patterns in
ourselves.
Our, our entire body relies onSunlight and night to know what
(31:32):
24 hours is.
And so.
We don't want to go without it.
We don't want to always be inthe dark.
sunshine is, you know, it's anelement of good health to us.
I mean, it's as important asclean air.
So we do want to get sunshine.
We just don't want to damage ourskin in the process.
So that's where you have to beindividual in how you treat
this.
Like one person can be out theretwo hours, no problem.
(31:53):
Another person, 20 minutes isall they can do without, you
know, risking a sunburn.
Leah (31:58):
or less, yeah, or, or, or less.
And so don't, if, if someone isreading, oh, 15 minutes of
unprotected sun to get myvitamin D, That might not be
true for that person.
It may be just five minutes, andit might not be true at all,
because they might live inOregon in the winter, where
you're not gonna get any.
Tina (32:18):
Yeah.
And, And, if you did, you know,burn a lot when you were young,
for example, for variousreasons, you wanted to get that
tan and you didn't have the skintype for it, but you tried
anyways, then, Know that thatrisk factor is already in the
bank, and you want to be evenmore careful as you go forward,
and I would say, you make anappointment with a dermatologist
every once in a while, dependingon your age and where you are
(32:40):
and, you know, your access tothat, but if you can get a skin
check, I would say 50 years old,you get a baseline skin check,
and then the dermatologist willtell you, you know, whether
you're high risk, low risk,whether you should come back in,
a year or six months or fiveyears.
I mean, it depends, but I thinkthis goes in my column of like,
when you turn 50 of things totake care of, give yourself a
(33:01):
couple of years to do it.
But you should have had yourcolonoscopy.
You should have at least abaseline DEXA scan, get some
blood work done.
I mean, you just, if you can, ifyou have access to such things
and you can make them happen,then I think it's important
Leah (33:13):
I, I, I would say before 50, if you have a history of a
lot of burns as a child, and alot of sun exposure, I have seen
patients with melanoma who aresuper young, so I would say if,
yeah, if you have any sort ofblistering burn history, find a
dermatologist, get mole checksregularly, I mean it's, you
(33:34):
know, if you have tanning bedhistory, just do that.
Tina (33:37):
And do self checks too.
Right.
I mean, interestingly, you know,I went to the dermatologist,
they don't check my nethers, youknow, so you have to do some
self checks too.
Leah (33:47):
Um, one thing I do want to add, which we didn't cover, um,
is SPF.
Tina (33:53):
What it means.
Leah (33:53):
Yeah, so when you go to the store, you don't really see
like SPF 4 so much anymore, it'salways SPF 30, SPF 50, 70, 100.
Are those higher numbers better?
When I was a kid, I rememberedlearning that SPF 4 meant you
could stay out in the sun fourtimes longer.
SPF 8 meant you could stay outin the sun eight times longer.
(34:16):
That's not true.
It has to do more with The, thedosage of the sun that you're
getting, it's actually theminimal erythema dose, the med
value that they look at, andthey compare the med value of
protected skin and the med valueof unprotected skin.
(34:37):
And that's how they come upwith, the SPF value.
and that was a big concern withsome of the, um, With some of
the more popular brands ofsunscreen as well, is that their
stated SPF value wasn't what wasin the product.
So the bottle said one thingthat that was an issue that had
come up as well.
(34:58):
and also the issue of balance,because you want to to find
something that says broadspectrum.
And so it covers all the UVrays.
It's not just blocking one orthe other.
And so that was another concern.
So you know, if you're not doingthe mineral ones, the mineral
sun blocks, look for Europeansunscreens.
They're supposed to be, they,they are, the EU is a lot
(35:21):
stricter.
With their regulations in termsof, safety and, like I mentioned
with the coral reefs and marinelife, but also making sure that
their products are.
what they say they are.
Tina (35:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And no matter what you use orwhat you do, just be cognizant
of it too.
I mean, just know that you'reout there in the peak hours or
know your own limits.
I feel like each of us could bemore.
I used a, I used a brand thatwill remain unnamed that when I
put it on, I swear to God, itmade me burn faster.
(35:54):
It was supposed to be asunscreen.
It was, you know, eco friendly,yada, yada, fill in the blanks.
It was zinc based.
I know that I felt like I putoil on myself or something.
I got darker faster.
I don't think it did what thelabel claimed it did.
So I'm just saying that becauseno matter what you get, you
know, if there's going to befalse labels out there or
anything like that, you probablyknow yourself better than
(36:16):
anything and just don't, don'tlet it happen.
Just wear another layer, go intothe shade, put on a hat.
I to me, that's more reliable.
I know if you're on a boat oryou're swimming, you can't do
all those things.
So you have to use sunscreensome of the time, but I feel
like protecting yourself fromthe rays is going to be more
reliable in the grand scheme ofthings.
Leah (36:34):
And I, I've been trying to do both.
I mean, I think I've been prettycareless throughout the years
and you know, I'm one wherevanity, I mean, it's, it's,
it's.
It's a reality in my life and Ikind of wish because I have
noticed, especially living inArizona, having the more sun
damage on one side of my face.
I wish I was more diligent.
I use like the makeup like BBcreams and moisturizers that
(36:59):
have sunscreen in them, butyou're not applying enough of it
in order to actually make iteffective.
I now have like a stick.
It looks like a little tinydeodorant stick and it's really
thick and I apply that.
I don't care if my face is twoshades whiter than the rest of
my, you know, my face, ears andneck.
I don't care.
I'm at the age where I justdon't care.
(37:19):
Um, and I know that's not goingto work for everybody, because I
am a type 3 skin, and so I dohave lighter skin.
Tina (37:28):
Wait, what's type three skin?
That
Leah (37:31):
so, you want to go through the types?
Okay.
So the types are, type 1 skinis, it's very light skin.
It often has freckles, um,usually the person has reddish
or strawberry blonde hair.
Their eyes are very light, blueor gray.
type two skin is light skin,freckles, blonde or brown hair.
(37:52):
Eye colors can be anything.
Type three skin is light orlight brown skin, rarely with
freckles, dark blonde or brownhair, gray or brown eyes.
Tina (38:03):
sounds like me.
Wait, was that three?
Leah (38:05):
No, that's three.
I think you're four.
Tina (38:07):
okay.
Leah (38:08):
Four is light brown or olive colored skin, no freckles,
dark brown hair, brown or darkbrown eyes.
I think that's you.
Um, type five is dark brownskin, dark brown or black hair,
and dark brown eyes.
And then type six is dark brownor black skin, black hair and
dark brown eyes.
(38:28):
So a big problem with thesemineral.
Inorganic sunblocks is thedarker the complexion, the more
obvious it is.
Some of the products doeventually sink into your skin,
but, um, there are mineral basedsunblocks that are.
(38:50):
Made specifically for darkercomplexions.
And so I'll try to look some up.
People probably know this betterthan I do.
I'm just going to look and seewhat is recommended by,
dermatologists on the webs.
But if you know a product, thencomment.
Let me know what your favoriteproduct is.
Because not everybody wants tolook like Spicoli.
Tina (39:12):
No, that's, that's helpful because those skin types are
what I'm talking about when Isay we each need to know our
own, limits to our sun exposure.
And that's your skin type will,have a lot to do with how much
you can be exposed, if at all,to sunshine before you get sun
damage.
Leah (39:27):
And I think, I mean, I don't have the statistics in
front of me, but I think peoplethink that, oh, I naturally have
a darker complexion, that Idon't need this, this sun
protection.
And you do.
I think the statistic formelanoma is like one in a
thousand.
For somebody with black skin,that's still a lot of people,
(39:48):
you know, I mean, it soundslike, oh, well, that's not so
bad, but that still is a lot ofpeople.
And, and somebody has got to bethat one.
So it's better to be safe.
And don't think that justbecause you're dark, darker
complexion, that it'snecessarily going to, um,
protect you.
So make sure you're wearing thatbig broad hat, make sure you're,
you know, wearing the longsleeve clothing and avoiding sun
during those hours.
Tina (40:09):
Yeah, and you know how I opened this with the fact that
there is more incidence ofmelanoma in Oregon than Texas?
But, people are more likely todie of melanoma in Texas than in
Oregon.
Mm hmm.
Leah (40:21):
What
Tina (40:22):
Mortality rates are higher from melanoma in Texas than they
are in Oregon, even though theincidence is higher in Oregon.
So What that tells you, it's,it's, it's caught early here
Leah (40:32):
I was going to say this detection.
Yeah.
Tina (40:33):
yes, that has to do with early detection because I think
right now for stage onemelanoma, 94 point something
percent have no recurrence afterfive years.
So it's a, it's a pretty solidstatistic and, and if it's let
go to later stages, then thosepercentages go down
significantly.
So, yeah, so that's why we'reinto screening, of course,
(40:54):
right?
This is why we talk about it,you and I, is making sure that
you do self checks and, uh, ifyou see anything change in a
mole or a new mole come up or asensation that's new, that
suddenly itches and it never didbefore, always get it checked
out.
It doesn't hurt.
Leah (41:08):
Um, and lotions actually are apparently the better form
to use.
So I don't know about my waxystick, but, lotions are better
than the sprays.
And I have found a product thatis a mineral based spray.
And with minerals, you want tomake sure that it's not the nano
minerals, because the nanominerals are also harmful to the
(41:29):
marine life.
Tina (41:30):
Well, and I think they're small enough to absorb.
Leah (41:32):
Well, there you go.
Tina (41:33):
I don't really want the titanium being absorbed.
You know, it's just not one ofthose things I want much of.
Zinc?
All right.
I can probably get over thatone.
But
Leah (41:42):
I think, I think they're more appealing because they'll
sink in more and you know,you're not having the, the, the
little glow, but I think of itas a base layer and then I put
my tinted moisturizer on top itdoesn't actually increase your
protection by using like 30sunblock and then putting a 30,
moisturizer on top of that.
That it's not added.
Tina (42:02):
it doesn't, it doesn't give you 60, 30 plus 30.
Leah (42:04):
It's not additive.
No, unfortunately.
And I just want to add one morething.
If you are going throughchemotherapy, immunotherapy,
check and see if even being inthe sun is safe.
Tina (42:17):
Yes.
And that's true of a lot ofmedications.
Actually, there's a lot ofmedications that make you
photosensitive.
And
Leah (42:23):
Yeah, because that, that, that is a big thing that can
make you more, more sensitive tothe sun and you can get a bad
burn.
Tina (42:30):
Yeah, nothing will protect you except shade.
Leah (42:33):
Make sure you check out the episode we did on vitamin D.
We'll put a link to that in theshow notes.
And, um, yeah, if you have anyquestions about anything that
we've talked about, then, yeah.
Definitely drop us a note.
You can email us at the cancerpod at gmail.
com.
You can go to our website andthere is a place where you can
(42:55):
click on a little button, you'llsee it off to the right side of
the screen and you can record usa message, yeah.
Tina (43:03):
Yeah, record a message that we can play on the air.
That would be fun
Leah (43:05):
No, one's recorded us a message.
we do get we get messagesthrough our website.
Tina (43:11):
Yes, no audio.
Leah (43:13):
No audio yet.
Tina (43:14):
Maybe everyone listening is an introvert.
They don't want to be aired.
Leah (43:18):
listening whoever's listening right now, go to the
website, thecancerpod.
com.
Find the little microphone, onthe right hand side, click on it
and leave us a message.
Say hi.
I was listening to your episode.
I'm leaving you a message.
That's all you have to do.
Or you could say, disagree witheverything you said,
Tina (43:40):
But I still listened to the end and heard this
Leah (43:42):
but I listened all the way through.
Tina (43:45):
So here I am.
Leah (43:47):
On that note, I'm Dr.
Leah Sherman,
Tina (43:49):
And I'm Dr.
Tina Kaeser.
Leah (43:51):
and this is the Cancer Pod.
Tina (43:52):
Until next time.
Leah (44:26):
That'll do, pig.
Tina (44:29):
It'll do.
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