March 26, 2025 • 50 mins
The diagnosis of cancer is rising in young adults (under 45 years old). This episode of The Cancer Pod delves into potential reasons behind this trend, including epigenetics, environmental exposures, microbiome differences, and lifestyle factors. Tina and Leah discuss the types of cancers most commonly seen in younger adults, symptoms to watch for, and the significance of advocating for timely and accurate diagnoses. And, get ready for the next episode on cancer fakes and frauds!
Links we mention in this episode:
Cancer rates are 2-3 times higher today than two generations ago
Heavy metals (lead, cadmium, arsenic, etc.) in tattoos as a possible contributor
Why diagnosis of cancer is often delayed in young adults
Types of cancers more common in young adults
Young adults with colorectal cancer have better outcomes than older adults
The increasing rate of colorectal cancer in young adults worldwide
The SHIELD blood test for colorectal cancer
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leah (00:00):
Tina,
Tina (00:01):
Leia.
Leah (00:02):
it's kind of exciting.
We have a membership now.
Tina (00:04):
I would love to get to know some folks who are
listening to us.
Leah (00:06):
Yeah.
So if somebody wants to join usin our membership in our cancer
pod community, they can headover to our website and
Tina (00:16):
Don't we become a pod of our own, like a pod of people?
Leah (00:19):
we become a pod, which kind of makes me think of
evasion of body snatchers, but,um, but anyway, um, yeah, head
over to our website and youclick on buy me a coffee, and if
you want, you can just buy us acoffee, a one-time deal, or you
can join our membership.
We have three levels to choosefrom, and each one offers
(00:42):
different bonus content andexclusive benefits.
Tina (00:46):
We're gonna be doing live events with our membership so
that you can ask questions.
of course we cannot give medicaladvice'cause we are not your
doctors, but we can give generaladvice
Leah (00:57):
You can also, if you have any questions for us or
comments, you can leave thosemessages on our website as well.
The cancer pod.com.
Tina (01:06):
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But if you have any critiques,then be constructive and help us
out.
Leah (01:11):
Don't be mean and remember to share this episode, your
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Tina (01:22):
We're really a resource now.
I mean we have over a hundredepisodes.
A lot of them are very specificto side effects during treatment
or challenges duringsurvivorship after treatment.
so It's becoming quite thelibrary of information that if
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'cause they are free andavailable.
Leah (01:44):
And leave a review and rate us wherever you listen
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And all of that helps us stay adfree, and that's important to
us.
Tina (01:57):
Yeah.
And we can keep on doing whatwe're doing.
Make it a podcast SinceSeptember, 2021.
Leah (02:03):
so today we're gonna be talking about.
It's been in the news aboutyoung people, younger people
getting cancer.
Um, are younger people gettingmore cancer?
Are younger people gettingcancers that are typically not
common for people their age?
So
Tina (02:21):
Mm-hmm.
And is this a phenomenon that isunique to the United States or
is it more of a global issue?
So we'll talk about that andmore
Leah (02:29):
stick around.
Tina (2) (02:30):
I'm Dr.
Tina Kayser, and as Leia likesto say, I'm the science y one.
Leah (02:34):
And I'm Dr.
Leia Sherman, and I'm the cancerinsider.
Tina (2) (02:38):
And we're two naturopathic doctors who
practice integrative cancercare.
Leah (02:42):
But we're not your doctors.
Tina (2) (02:44):
This is for education, entertainment, and informational
purposes only.
Leah (02:48):
Do not apply any of this information without first
speaking to your doctor.
Tina (2) (02:53):
The views and opinions expressed on this podcast by the
hosts and their guests aresolely their own.
Leah (02:59):
Welcome to the Cancer Pod.
Hi Tina.
Tina (03:06):
Hello Leah?
Leah (03:07):
today we're talking about young adults and cancer,
Tina (03:11):
Yes.
Is the incidents on the riseand, uh, if so, why?
Leah (03:17):
right?
there are a lot of differenttheories out there.
we have our own views yeah, sowhen they talk about younger
people, it is typically peopleunder, 45, I guess, is kind of
what they're looking at.
it's interesting because thestudy that I saw.
Looked at two different groups.
It looked at millennials andboomers, which is, you know,
(03:37):
being a member of Gen X, feelinga little left out, especially
because there are higher cancerincidence rates in Gen X as
well.
But they're looking atmillennials and so that's people
who are born between 1981 and1996.
however old that makes them.
Dang it, my math is bad.
Tina (03:54):
The youngest millennials will turn 30 in 2026.
Leah (03:58):
Really?
Tina (04:00):
Yes.
You're getting old.
Leah (04:02):
Oh my god.
All right, so there are somecancers.
I mean, I guess every cancerkind of has, its typical age
range.
And what's really unusual isthat there are cancers that are
more associated with olderpeople.
People over the age of 50, thatyounger people are getting
things like pancreatic cancer,renal cancer.
Tina (04:24):
You know, I just wanna put out there, this is not, I wanna
say something right here at thebeginning age.
And the aging process is a riskfactor for cancer.
So you can't stop that one.
There's only one way to stopaging, and that's not a good's
not a good option,
Leah (04:39):
It's not recommended.
Tina (04:40):
right?
So I'm saying that because rightoutta the gates, even when we
say these are higher in youngerpeople, it still is not near the
rates of what people get afterthe age of say, 60, 65.
We're talking about a different,it's higher in the age group,
but it doesn't come close towhat people are getting as they
age.
'cause aging itself is a riskfactor that we can't do anything
about other than not ageanymore, which means that you're
(05:03):
not here.
So I'm saying that outta thegates.
'cause I just wanna be veryclear that even when we say the
incidence is higher, it's stilla very low incidence in a, in a
global sense.
Like when you're looking at thenumbers compared to higher,
ages.
Leah (05:15):
And I think in, like in my work experience working at CTCA,
I saw a lot of younger peoplewho had breast cancer, colon
cancer, you know, ovariancancer, just more unusual, I
don't wanna say unusual cancers,but I saw a lot of younger
people because that's wherepeople went.
Tina (05:33):
Yes.
Yes.
Leah (05:35):
That's where they would travel to because of whatever
care they were or were notgetting where they came from
because maybe they weren'tdiagnosed in a timely manner.
Whatever happened then theywould go to CTCA.
When I went to Indiana thepatient population was so much
older and I think that istypical,
Tina (05:52):
Mm-hmm.
Leah (05:53):
for the most part.
So anyways, that's just anaside.
But yeah, so.
Tina (05:58):
Can I say one more thing on a scale of aging?
Even when we talk about youngcancers, we're not talking about
pediatric.
So pediatric is under 18 yearsold, so that's a separate
category and a separatediscussion.
We're really looking at youngadults, which is, you know, like
we said, really under 50.
So round numbers is 20 to 50,and as you age within the 20 to
(06:19):
50 range, the risk does go upbecause aging is in there.
That risk factor is still there,even.
When you are considered a youngadult with cancer.
So that's all.
I just wanna be very clear aboutthe population we're talking
about.
Leah (06:30):
and I don't know where I saw it in my research for this,
but, um, early onset breastcancer is considered younger
than 45, and colorectal isconsidered younger than 50.
Tina (06:40):
Mm-hmm.
Leah (06:41):
And I do remember a long time ago, um, I.
I was a big fan of the TodayShow, and I used to watch, Katie
Couric her husband was diagnosedwith colon cancer and he was in
his forties and that was reallyunusual at the time.
he passed away and it was just,the whole thing was just really,
I remember like, I wasn'tworking in, medicine, I was
(07:03):
working in graphic design at thetime, and I just remember just,
it was just, it was all reallysurprising because it was so
unusual.
you know, now we hear about, Imean, not only people who follow
us on.
Our, social media, but you know,celebrities, um, Chadwick,
Bozeman,
Tina (07:20):
Hmm.
Leah (07:21):
um, James VanDerBeek.
You know, these are young peoplewho, were diagnosed at a young
age.
Tina (07:29):
Yeah.
And when we're talking aboutcolorectal cancer, just like
people over 50, people under 50need to be screened.
And if we can find that cancerat earlier stages, the outcomes
are much, much better thanfinding it at a later stage of
disease.
in the grand scheme, brightsided to all of this, when you
(07:49):
compare a people over 15, peopleunder 50 with colorectal cancer,
specifically, people who areyounger do have better outcomes.
They have less recurrence, theylive longer.
there's been studies that havecompared, um, young adults with
colorectal cancer from peoplewho are over the age of 50.
the outcomes are generallybetter.
Now, I don't know if that's dueto more aggressive treatment or
(08:09):
just healthier because you'reyounger and you have more
resilience built in.
it doesn't matter.
But on the bright side, um, itdoes have a better prognosis.
Leah (08:18):
If it's diagnosed.
And I mean, that's one goodthing about the, the guidelines
for colonoscopies being changed,and now it's 45,
Tina (08:27):
Mm-hmm.
Leah (08:27):
where it used to be 50 to get your colonoscopy unless you
had a family history.
Tina (08:33):
That was for Caucasians.
It has been 45 for AfricanAmericans for a while.
Leah (08:37):
Okay.
but yeah, so if you had a familyhistory, then it would be based
on the age that, your relativewas, diagnosed, But, am finding,
and maybe this is just again,you know, because we have a
certain population who followsus on social media, it's not
always diagnosed in a timelymanner when you are younger than
(08:59):
45 because it's being dismissedas you have IBS you have
hemorrhoids,
Tina (09:04):
Yes.
Leah (09:04):
Al and I think it's the same with breast cancer.
I mean, I don't know how manyyoung patients I had who were
diagnosed with breast cancer,under 30, who were told, oh,
it's not breast cancer.
You're too young to have cancer.
Tina (09:17):
Honestly, that's where all those numbers that I'm talking
about work against you as anindividual.
So you're an individual showingup at your doctor with whatever
symptomology, x, y, Z symptoms.
And that doctor is playingpercentages in their head, like,
what's the likelihood that thisis benign?
What's the likelihood that thisis cancer?
So they're gonna probably notdiagnose it right out of the
(09:38):
gates.
So your, your age works againstyou in some ways in finding it
early.
Leah (09:42):
Yeah.
Tina (09:43):
And I, I think that's a lot of the times the case.
One bright spot there is forcolorectal cancer, in July of
2024, the FDA approved a newtest, a blood test for
colorectal cancer that is just ablood draw.
So in some ways it's easier toget.
That done.
and get your doctor to agree tojust, can you just put that on
my, on my lab or if you live ina state that allows it, you can
(10:07):
order it yourself.
depends what state you live in,in the nation.
'cause healthcare in the UnitedStates is state by state.
There are stool tests forcolorectal cancer that can be
done, but this is a blood test,so I feel like adoption will be
faster than it was for stooltesting, which is the Cologuard
commercial with that little bluebox that smiles and, yeah, it's
the same company.
This is called shield.
(10:27):
The name of the test is, iscalled Shield.
Leah (10:29):
Okay.
And we could put a link to thatin our show notes.
Tina (10:32):
Yeah.
Leah (10:39):
So, okay.
So there are, five or sixtheories, as to why younger
people are getting cancer orthat they're being diagnosed
with cancer.
Um, and the first one isepigenetics,
Tina (10:55):
Epigenetics?
Leah (10:56):
which is different than genetics.
So there is that, I guess weshould start with that.
So what is it like five to 10%of all people who are diagnosed
with cancer?
It's actually genetic.
Tina (11:09):
Mm-hmm.
I think we're gonna find out.
It's depending on which type ofcancer, I think it's gonna be
when we finally find multi genesthat put together, like if you
have these three or five or 17genes, do you have a high risk?
We're getting there with thatkind of data for single genes,
like one gene, like the BRCAgene, BRCA mutation, or deletion
So when it's a single gene, Iwould say it's gonna be 10% or
(11:31):
so.
Leah (11:31):
Okay, so we're not gonna talk about that.
We're not gonna talk about the,the genetic component.
Tina (11:36):
we did tackle genetic cancers once upon a time.
It's in our catalog back in 2021or 2022.
Leah (11:41):
yeah.
So again, we'll, we'll link tothat.
okay, so then the other word Isaid epigenetics.
What, what are epigenetics,Tina?
Tina (11:48):
Epi.
Literally means above.
So above the gene.
So this is ways that our genesare turned on or off.
So epigenetics has to do withregulation of the gene.
And epigenes is veryconsequential.
It is highly responsive to itsenvironment.
So for example, withepigenetics, you can unmask,
(12:12):
meaning you begin to express agene that's been silenced for
generations and generations.
But if your environment,literally your environment where
the DNA is literally thecellular environment, what it's
in needs, that gene it over timesays, oh, we have reason to
unmask this gene.
(12:32):
Let's go ahead and do it.
It will then uncover a genethat's been silenced.
It's been sitting there, but itjust hasn't done anything until
you provoke it.
And so we change our epigeneticsmore.
Readily than the actual geneitself, which is made up of ATT
c and g.
You know that little spiral thatwe all think of A DNA looks
like, right?
It
Leah (12:52):
All the way back to, to, you know, biology class.
Tina (12:55):
Yeah.
The helix, the double helix ofDNA, that's a whole nother
story, but the double helix ofthe DNA is att C and g and that
does not change as readily.
That's very difficult changingthat the epigenetics is more
fluid and changes generation togeneration.
So if my my great grandfatherwas a chimney sweep.
that might have consequences onmy epigenetics today because his
(13:18):
body had to uncover genes todeal with the soot.
Does that make sense?
Leah (13:22):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So your parents or grandparents'exposures, they have an
influence on your epigenetics.
Tina (13:29):
Yes, and it's generational, so it's very slow
and hard to track.
I think we are seeing someepigenetic results of what our
grandparents and even our greatgrandparents saw when we had
pesticides like DDT that werepervasive.
Everybody was exposed to them.
Leah (13:45):
Oh yeah, because we've, all heard stories about people
running after the, the mosquitospring, the fogger, the truck
that had the fog coming out theback.
yeah, I remember like the planesgoing over, spraying pesticides,
over certain areas in placeswhere I've lived so.
Tina (14:01):
Yeah.
And the idea that theepigenetics is consequential,
has been proven in animals againand again.
So there's no, there's no dearthof information on this.
There's plenty of informationshowing that, you know, it is
not your parents, but yourgrandparents and even their,
their parents that gets handeddown.
I think the most acute phasewhen this is happening is during
(14:23):
pregnancy.
I think that's a time that wehave to really think about how
things are being handed downbecause When someone's pregnant,
when the ovaries in the fetusare forming, there could be
consequences, right?
Then that is when the geneticsof that baby's children and
whenever that baby goes on tohave children.
Those ovaries are already set.
The stage is set for yourovaries in utero when you're a
(14:46):
fetus.
For men, it's different.
Sperm comes and goes.
Sperm generation is not set whenyou're a fetus.
Sperm generation is now.
And so I mean, that personshould really be very, very,
very conscious of no drugs, noalcohol, no, no chemicals, no
pesticides, eat like super dupercleanly, all that kind of stuff.
Leah (15:08):
They have to live in a bubble.
They basically have to live in abubble.
Tina (15:11):
Well, you have to be conscientious, I think.
I think that we can all.
Do our best.
It's impossible to be, you know,where we were before the
industrial age.
That's not gonna happen becauseeven our air, in every city is,
is not what it used to be.
So,
Leah (15:25):
Well, that can lead us to the another one, which is
environmental exposures, right?
So epigenetics and environmentalexposures, they're very
intertwined.
Tina (15:35):
absolutely.
Yeah.
Leah (15:37):
And we have discussed this before.
we talked about microplastics,we talked about forever,
chemicals in different episodes.
all of those.
Play a part, yeah, I mean, onceyou become conscious of it, it's
almost, I, it's, so for me it'svery stress inducing because
it's like every, there, there'sjust plastic everywhere.
Everywhere.
Tina (15:58):
I feel like when you start looking at clothing, you really
start to go, oh.
Leah (16:01):
right.
With all the microfiber, the,um, sportswear, endurance, wear,
hiking stuff, all of that.
Yeah.
We're, we're trying to shiftmore to products made from wool.
but it's, it's hard.
I mean, you look at yoursneakers, you look at
everything, you're hiking shoes,it's, it's just kind of
everywhere.
you look in your kitchen andit's just, it's shocking how
(16:24):
much plastic, we have in ourrefrigerator and Yeah.
In your grocery cart.
Tina (16:28):
Yeah, I'm a fan of the old school, right?
Like, just go backwards.
You use glass, use ball, jars,glass is usually inert.
Leah (16:34):
But when you buy something, when you buy, like
things from a deli counter, youknow, cheese or whatever,
they'll ask, do you want us towrap it in paper or plastic?
And we're always like, paper.
but not, not everyone has that.
Um, so if you buy packagedcheese, it comes in plastic and
then you go home, you take itoutta the plastic and you put it
in class.
But it's already been, it'salready been in plastic.
(16:56):
It's, um, and I don't wanna gotoo much into this because we
have talked about microplasticsbefore.
Tina (17:01):
Yeah.
And they, they do disturb thegut.
Leah (17:04):
Right?
And they're found, I mean, they,they, they've been found in,
throughout us, like in our, youknow, our bodies.
Um,
Tina (17:11):
Even in the sacred space of the brain.
Leah (17:13):
yeah, they've been found in the brain.
They've been found in testiculartissue.
Tina (17:18):
If they can pass the blood-brain barrier, yeah, they
can go anywhere.
Leah (17:21):
Yeah.
Tina (17:22):
ultimately,
Leah (17:23):
Yeah.
And, but there are otherenvironmental exposures too.
you know, the forever chemicalsare what we think of, like with
the Teflon pan, when Teflon pancame out, those were just such a
godsend.
Everybody used Teflon pan andthen they'd get scraped.
And I remember'cause you'reusing the wrong utensils, and so
then they get scraped and allthat Teflon comes up.
That is so bad for you.
Tina (17:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's not so inert.
I mean, if you're cooking overabout 400 degrees, which is not
difficult, then it starts todegrade whether it's scratched
or not.
So there are better alternativesnow to that.
it's really hard to trackenvironmentally because we live
in a soup, right, of so manydifferent exposures.
Our soil, our air quality,sometimes the water quality.
(18:03):
So it's really a, it's not aneasy one to track back and say,
oh, you know, that exposure orthat exposure.
Every time we find one that'sreally focused upon like DDT or
dioxin, we do our best to, youknow, regulate that.
But there is no, like you said,it's, a challenging one'cause
there's nowhere that you cancompletely escape it.
Leah (18:23):
No.
And we have our, our cabin up innorthern Wisconsin, and we have
a septic tank.
And when they come and emptythat septic tank.
Is everything that we use withinthe house and you know, the
cleaners and everything that weput in there, everything is just
very clean and natural.
But I take medicine, I'm takingTamoxifen, and so that is in
(18:45):
that waste, and they will takethat waste and they will spray
it on fields.
And the fields aren'tnecessarily growing food for
humans, but it's out there.
So, and you know, fortunately wedon't take a ton of medications
and so it's not, you know, thiswhole pharmaceutical soup that's
in there, but like the thoughtthat they're doing this from
(19:07):
multiple homes and they'respraying fields and then the
runoff will go into the riverand the river goes, you know,
down into wherever you know itjust.
That's crazy.
Like, isn't that crazy thatthey're spraying human waste and
what, like, that's not even thegrossest part.
Like, like it's everything thatyou put in there.
(19:29):
And so they're finding, youknow, they're, you know, p FFAs
and stuff in there too.
So, and then they're not P FFAs,P FFAs.
Am I saying that right?
Tina (19:38):
But you gotta tell folks what that means.
Leah (19:40):
Well, those are forever chemicals.
I'm not gonna break down whatit, it's a
Tina (19:43):
Well, yeah.
Yeah.
No, yeah.
You don't have to say the wordwhen you say P Fs, I don't.
I think you lost people.
That's
Leah (19:49):
Oh, okay.
Well, forever chemicals.
Forever chemicals.
And then of course, the thingthat I brought up in previous
episodes is I went to art schoolin the eighties and there was a
lot of exposure to the solvents.
Um, the coloring in oil paintsthat we would get on our hands,
then clean it with solvents.
We just like, we didn't care,you know?
(20:11):
And so all of that.
Tina (20:12):
Well, and I think a lot of folks still do that.
Like they, they'll, I've seenit.
People paint or they're doingwork or they're like, I don't
know.
All sorts of people don't takethe precautions'cause they
think, oh, it's just gonna be, Ido this all the time, or it
doesn't hurt.
Leah (20:26):
Right.
Or I remember, um, like in photolab, you know, we'd be in the
dark room and we're just likepulling them out.
You have little tongs, butyou're just like, whatever.
And you just grab it with yourhand, you know, it's, you're
18-year-old thing and yourphotography professor is doing
the same thing.
So, so there're just like somany different ways that we are
(20:47):
being exposed to things.
Tina (20:48):
So back to the young adults with cancer, one of the
things that we don't talk about,we we're talking about
microplastics now, but there'salso a lot of dyes in the, in
these plastics, and there's beenheavy metals used to make the
plastics pretty colors.
And so even in playgrounds,Playgrounds used arsenic in the
wood.
That wasn't good.
(21:08):
They got that out and theystarted using plastics, and the
plastics had, heavy metals init.
So there's, there's a lot ofexposures that we've introduced
because we don't have a systemthat makes sure something is
safe.
We have a system that doublechecks to see if it's toxic, and
if so, at what amount?
If we check it at all.
Leah (21:27):
Even, um, tattoos
Tina (21:29):
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Leah (21:31):
and, you know, speaking as a tattooed person, you know,
there are various heavy metalsbut depending on when you were.
Tattooed.
I don't know if they're makingthem healthier now.
I have no idea.
But, um, the tattoo ink, youknow, different pigments that
are used they have various heavymetals.
(21:52):
and then that process itself,the inflammation that keeps your
tattoo where it is
Tina (21:59):
Yeah.
And you know what's interestingabout this?
When we talk about heavy metals,you could argue those are
natural.
Because arsenic occurs innature, as does lead
Leah (22:06):
cadmium,
Tina (22:06):
academy.
They're all, these aren'tsynthetic chemicals we're
talking about when we say this.
So I just wanna say that.
'cause you know, not everythingnatural is, uh, is okay in any
dose either.
So this is an example where itactually is not good,
Leah (22:20):
Okay.
So, We've talked aboutepigenetics, we talked about
environmental exposures.
There is also, our internalenvironment, our microbiome that
also has been implicated in apossible cause for younger
people getting cancer.
Tina (22:36):
am very much into not just the microbiome of the gut, which
we have a lot of informationabout.
And we do have a lot of,indications that the bacteria
that inhabit the colon.
Or the breast ducts or theprostate.
Those organisms when there'scancer are different than when
(22:57):
someone does not have cancer.
They have studies where they,they remove the colorectal
cancer and then they look at thebacteria that are near the
tumor.
so the tumor has some bacterialpopulations that they name and
then they look adjacent to it.
same person, right?
Same day, same surgery.
The normal tissue next to thecancerous tissue has different
bacteria in it.
(23:19):
And so I think it's really youngas a, as a discipline, like to
figure out how the bacteria, andthere's other organisms, there's
viral particles, there'sbacteriophages, which are a type
of virus.
There's yeast in other fungus.
So there's a, there's a wholecommunity ecology everywhere
that there's bacteria, uh, thatwe say bacteria because it's the
dominant population and there'smore of that than anything else.
(23:41):
But the others may not be minorplayers.
They could be big players insome of the cancers.
We don't know.
So I, I think I'm way into themicrobiome, not just with gut,
but of the actual cancer.
I'm trying to get the word oncobiome to, to take hold.
You know, if you look for oncobiome right now, you're not
gonna see much.
But I think it's the apt termfor when the bacterial
communities are actually insidethe tumor.
(24:04):
They're in the cancer, which isheresy 20 years ago.
That's like, nah.
All inner organs with the bodyare sterile.
They're not, we now know thatthere are actual bacteria inside
certainly inside the tumors.
And so not only are they thereat the primary tumor, but
(24:26):
they're there when you look atthe metastasis of a tumor too.
So a colorectal cancer, you canlook at the tumor, look inside
it, you'll see certain bacteria.
There's one calledFusobacterium, nucleotum that's
really implicated.
Um, totally normal to have thatin your mouth.
You're not supposed to have itin your colon.
So it's like, I always think oflike ivy or Kudzu, you know,
like it's totally normal plantssomewhere else.
(24:47):
That's what I think of withthese bacteria and cancers like
that Fuso.
Bacterium.
Nucleo is totally normal in yoursaliva and no problem there, but
when you find it in the gut, itin, especially in the colon, it
is associated with colorectalcancers and it's actually inside
the colorectal cancer.
And if that colorectal cancerhappens to go somewhere else in
the body like the liver, and youtake that tumor outta the liver,
(25:11):
it's inside the tumor that's inthe liver.
So I mean, this is like, I'mtrying to get onco biome to like
really catch on and I'm like,that's what it is.
It's an onco biome oncologycancer biome.
Like it's a specific to thatcancer.
But we'll see.
We'll see if it evolves.
There's a few papers that usethe term, but it's not
commonplace yet.
I encourage all of our listenersto go talk about onco biomes.
Leah (25:31):
well, what I, what I thought was interesting is I
found, um, something that talkedabout how the biodiversity of
the gut in younger colorectalcancer patients is different
than the diversity of themicrobiome in older patients
with colorectal cancer.
I thought that was reallyinteresting too.
Tina (25:48):
You mean it's less diverse or
Leah (25:51):
they had less diversity than with an older patient.
Tina (25:55):
Okay.
Leah (25:56):
so that's like another thing where it is not
necessarily the sameenvironment, and so what some of
the things that might bealtering a microbiome, the
medications that we take,antibiotics,
Tina (26:08):
Antibiotics are independently linked to higher
risks of cancer.
Various cancers, breast cancers,colorectal cancers.
There's many cancers that areassociated with higher
antibiotic use in the past.
Leah (26:18):
And so what, what would higher use be?
Is there a definition for what'shigher use?
Tina (26:22):
No, it's a, it's a dose, linked association though.
The higher your antibiotic usein the past, it associates with
a higher rate of incident cancerlater.
Leah (26:36):
And so that would, that would have to do with your
diversity of what's living inyour, in your gut.
Tina (26:42):
Absolutely.
Maybe we did use antibioticsmore in certain decades than
others.
'cause we, we backed off, butonly more recently
Leah (26:49):
No, that's true.
Yeah.
Tina (26:51):
they're being used a little bit less.
But man, I think they were,antibiotics were given out like
candy in the, in the eighties.
Nineties,
Leah (26:56):
Well in, in seventies, I mean, in our, you know, more our
kind of growing up generation,um, whether or not you were a
C-section baby that definitelyplays a part in your microbiome.
Tina (27:08):
yes.
'cause you get your organismsfrom the vaginal canal.
Leah (27:12):
Yeah.
Um, breastfeeding.
Were you breastfed?
Were you bottle fed?
And so all of these, you know,there are trends, right?
I mean, when I was a baby, Ithink I was breastfed for a few
months and, you know, that, thatwhole formula thing, like when I
guess formula came out, it was agodsend, right?
I mean, it just kind of.
(27:33):
Save time.
Women could work You know, likeif their babies were fed
formula, they could go back towork.
and then it started to trendback to breastfeeding.
So it, yeah, it is interestingto see like that, you know, even
with, with having a c-section,you know, you have one child as
a C-section and then all yourchildren are C-section.
I don't believe that's how it isanymore.
(27:53):
your diet, I mean, that's kindof like the most obvious thing,
right?
Like your diet.
How does that affect yourmicrobiome?
It's everything.
Tina (28:01):
it's everything.
Generally speaking, diversity inthe gut.
If we're just talking aboutwhat's going on in the GI tract,
diversity is your friend.
so you do want diversity meansthat there's a lot of different
types of organism.
There's a lot of variety inthere.
So diversity is your friend,diversity in your gut, which
comes from diversity in yourdiet of plant foods.
Leah (28:22):
Yeah.
Tina (28:22):
Yes.
So that's, that's if, yeah, if,if you wanna know what to do,
you eat more color, it alwayscomes back down to the same
thing, same advice.
Eat a lot of plants and a lot ofdifferent types and a lot of
different colors.
Leaves and stems and flowers androots and tubers and, you know,
mix it all up and you'lleventually, um, have a very
diverse and healthy gut.
Leah (28:41):
And we've talked about before, having that 30 different
plants in your diet a week.
So that includes the spices, theherbs, you know, your grains,
all of that legumes.
I like saying legumes.
Tina (28:54):
Yeah.
You know, and probably theeasiest way to do that is you
have a little chart that youcan, that's almost like a little
laminated thing.
They, they sell these, usuallyit's for kids.
'cause we're we're trying to getkids to eat better.
and just make sure that that daythey had something yellow,
something red, something in theblue spectrum could be
blackberries that counts.
Accounts purple.
So just make sure that there'slots of color.
(29:14):
And if you do that, you know,every day, all the colors,
you'll probably get enoughvariety.
Doritos don't count.
I always have to add that.
'cause that's the first thingpeople ask me is like, Doritos.
And
Leah (29:25):
Oh, you're kidding.
Oh, that's funny.
Tina (29:27):
Yeah.
Well,'cause I think like Cheetosand Doritos leave all that
orange stuff on your hand, soit's the first thing people
think
Leah (29:31):
that's not, I mean, and they are plant-based, so I guess
I could see their argumentthere.
But, um, yeah, and, and again,even the brown foods, right, the
grains, the beans.
Tina (29:43):
Mm-hmm.
Leah (29:43):
Don't dismiss those either.
It doesn't just have to bewhat's in the rainbow.
It could be just what's in thefull spectrum.
Look, the Crayola box.
Let's start, let's start that.
Eat the,
Tina (29:53):
Eat the Crayola.
But is it the 16 count or
Leah (29:56):
No, it's the same.
I'm going for the 64.
The big box with, with the bigbox.
With
Tina (30:00):
Well, I, I'm thinking daily.
You're thinking weekly.
Leah (30:03):
I'm thinking we, yeah, I'm, I'm going.
But that, in that case it wouldbe the 32.
Anyways, uh, we're, we'redigressing.
okay.
And so then speaking of, of dietinfluencing the microbiome diet
in itself, the highly processed
Tina (30:24):
Calorically.
Dense.
Leah (30:26):
ultrapro, calorically, dense, nutritionally lacking
devoid, that's a good word.
Um, foods, uh, sedentarylifestyle.
obesity.
Obesity is a risk factor.
Tina (30:39):
Yeah, so, so each of those are independent risk factors.
And when we say that, that meansthat there are plenty of studies
to show that ultra processedfood is associated with higher
risk.
And I do think we haveintroduced those
multi-generational now, right?
So we have people who grew up onhighly processed food and then
went on to have children onhighly processed food.
(31:01):
So I think some of thoseepigenetic effects are due to.
Some of the multi-generationalnow changes in our diet, in our,
in our lifestyle.
So yes, the calorically densefoods that lead to obesity in
our sedentary lifestyle,
Leah (31:15):
Sedentary lifestyle.
I mean, we had PE in school, youknow, are kids still going out
and playing pe?
I don't have kids.
I don't know.
But it seems like a lot ofthings are getting cut in our
schools
Tina (31:28):
know, that's a really good point because if we say highly
processed food is associatedwith cancer, exercise is
associated with less cancer.
So another way to frame all ofthis is exactly that.
What if we stopped doing thatwas.
Anti-cancer, like maybe what weshould be looking at is not what
causes it, but what waspreventing it in the first place
(31:48):
and making sure that we addthose back, which is a little
bit more empowering than justsaying, you know, what causes
it.
Leah (31:54):
And again, there may still be PE in schools.
I just remember it was like anhour of, playing soccer or
softball or volleyball orwhatever.
Tina (32:04):
So let's be honest, there was that hour and then there was
all sorts of other hours becausewe didn't come home and jump on
a game box.
We came home and went and didstuff.
Leah (32:14):
That's true.
Yeah.
Tina (32:15):
We didn't, we didn't sit around.
We literally didn't just sitdown'cause we were kids and we
had a lot of energy.
And so, and I'm thinking justin, even in school, it would be
like I had a free period and youknow, we'd ask the gym teacher,
can we borrow the cross countryskis and try to, you know, go
down the hill over there.
And she's like, okay, sure.
So we did all sorts of things.
Leah (32:32):
Okay.
You went to a completelydifferent school than We never
had cross country skiing in anyof the schools I was at, but,
um, that's, that sounds kind offun actually.
but yeah, I was in drama and sowe were dancing, you know, we
were doing all of that sort ofthing.
But yeah, we weren't sittingaround in front of a, a monitor
(32:53):
playing games.
I did watch a lot of tv, butyeah.
But I would also go in thebackyard and, you know, try to
practice softball'cause I washorrible at it.
Or climb trees, all of thatstuff.
We were outside more.
It doesn't explain why ourgeneration also is getting,
Tina (33:09):
Well, we were outside more, but we also were not being
monitored, so maybe we were likeliterally like the classic, be
home by dark.
And so it's, I don't know aboutyou, but I went all the way down
to the park in the village,across the golf course, down the
hill.
I'm like,
Leah (33:25):
oh, we were riding our bikes.
Like
Tina (33:27):
yeah, at very young ages we were out and about going,
traveling around is my point.
So that,
Leah (33:33):
we sound like old people.
We sound like old people rightnow.
Being like, back in my day Iused to walk uphill both ways to
school.
yeah.
But definitely it's, it doesseem, it, I mean even my, like
now I feel like I'm moresedentary with social media.
Like I'm way more sedentary thanI used to be.
Tina (33:50):
Oh yeah, me too.
Leah (33:51):
Like it's,
Tina (33:52):
this, these screens that were staring at a lot of my work
is on a screen.
Yeah.
Leah (33:57):
Yeah.
Tina (33:57):
Admittedly, I'm not out and about.
Going to the park?
Leah (34:00):
no, but I am currently in Tucson and it is lovely weather
here, and I have been walkingthe dog for about half an hour a
day, which isn't a terrible longtime to walk, but I wear a
weighted vest even to kinda upmy game.
So there's 30 minutes of my 150minutes.
(34:21):
A week
Tina (34:23):
right?
Leah (34:24):
my exercise.
And so I have been doing that.
I've been here, I don't know howmany days, but yeah, I mean it's
a good habit to get into moving.
moving.
Even if, and this is something Iwould tell my patients all the
time, just put on some music.
Put on a song, and dance to it.
Everyone's got a song.
You don't like dancing, justmove to it.
(34:44):
Move.
Tina (34:45):
I like it.
Leah (34:46):
so, anyways, okay.
So yeah, so, another thing thatI have read is a theory as to
why there may be you know, morediagnoses of cancer in young
people.
sleep.
'cause we were talking aboutdevices, um, being on social
media, all of that causesalterations to our sleep cycle.
And so sleep is when our bodyrepairs.
(35:07):
If you're not getting a.
That repairing going on, that isbad.
That's really bad.
Tina (35:14):
Yes.
I think if people do wannapursue that as.
Where the evidence is light atnight, LAN has been studied
extensively and light at nightis associated with higher cancer
incidents.
we have a lot of light at nightnow.
I mean, all you have to do islook at a map and see how bright
cities are.
You can see it from satelliteimages.
(35:35):
there's something called clockgenes that's probably at the
heart of this.
So we should respect thecircadian rhythm that we
associate with our best healthand our best function.
That is you sleep at night andyou're awake in the day, you eat
in the daytime, you don't eat inthe night.
You know, there's these littlecues, biological cues that you
send your body, that help itnormalize its function, whether
(35:56):
it's immune function orendocrine function.
and certainly brain function isbest when you.
Get a good deep sleep, you getthese waves of glymphatic that
clear the brain.
And so there's no downside tothis is my point.
And if you don't, if you do havelight at night when you're
sleeping, put something on, puta mask on, um,
Leah (36:16):
Eye mask,
Tina (36:17):
yeah.
Put a eye
Leah (36:19):
a sleep eye
Tina (36:19):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
If you can't make it pitch dark,then, then that's your second
way of doing it.
And a lot of folks like to dothat because then you can pick
the mask up if you have to go tothe bathroom and see where
you're going.
Leah (36:28):
The other thing you can do is, because there are devices,
like we have a HEPA filter inour room and I put tape over the
little light'cause there's likea dim function where you can
kind of dim the light of theHEPA filter, but there's still a
little light.
And so you could just put likeseveral layers of, you know,
tape over that light.
Tina (36:47):
Yes.
Very important.
It's essential.
This is like foundational, thisis like eating your veggies,
get, get a good night's sleep.
And total darkness is reallyimportant.
the last thing we wanted to talkabout was early detection,
right?
I mentioned it a little bitearly in the show, but detecting
things earlier is always a goodidea.
Leah (37:07):
Well it And is that, why is early detection, why, you
know, because imaging is gettingso much better.
Is that why more cancers arebeing found?
Tina (37:17):
Mm,
Leah (37:18):
are, is it just because like imaging is so much better?
Tina (37:22):
I don't think so because most of the colorectal cancer is
stage three and four.
That would've been picked up on,um, CAT scan of 20 years ago
still would've picked it up.
Oh, I do wanna say this though.
I don't think this is connectedto Covid at all.
Like I should say, we can'tblame the Covid pandemic in any
way because a lot of this hashappening in prior to 2020.
Leah (37:42):
Right.
So there were, uh, there werethe conspiracy theories that it
was not only Covid, but it wasalso the Covid vaccine.
this trend of younger peoplebeing diagnosed with cancer
started in the nineties.
Tina (37:54):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's just gone up since.
I will say this though, whetherit is infection or a vaccine,
anything that causes systemicinflammation to be kicked up can
cause cancer to grow faster atthat time, progress faster.
So systemic inflammation,whenever there's a tumor,
(38:14):
systemic inflammation generallymeans that it's going to grow,
it's gonna cause it to grow.
We've done this in animalsrepeatedly'cause we have an
experimental model with animalswhere the poor little things we,
we create inflammation in theirlittle paw pads and then we see
what happens in other parts oftheir body.
So.
We've done this multiple timeswith, in multiple experiments
with animals, and I don't thinkit's any different for humans.
(38:36):
Systemic inflammation can causea cancer to grow.
Leah (38:40):
It could be caused by, Infections that aren't being
addressed.
Um, different exposures therewas an article from University
of Chicago and they were talkingabout chronic inflammation as
being a potential reason.
Tina (38:54):
Yeah.
Chronic inflammation is apotential reason, and you still
need the microbiome in that areato be.
Skew.
there was a model, it wasactually done in the journal
science.
It was a model where they used hpylori and they, they proved
that h pylori was connected tostomach cancer, but only under
certain conditions, and it hadto be chronic inflammatory
(39:15):
conditions.
Leah (39:16):
And that is one of the cancers that, um, we are seeing
more and more young peoplegetting gastric cancer.
Tina (39:22):
Yeah, and I, I'm sure that's a delay of diagnosis
because generally speaking,that's not gonna be suspect in
people who are young.
it's not as common as breast andprostate and colorectal cancers
and other cancers like that.
So it's gonna be way, way downon a doctor's differential
diagnosis.
So yeah, I could see how that'sa delay of diagnosis a lot of
the time too.
Leah (39:41):
another possible theory was, people were giving birth
later, they were having fewerchildren, and also, waiting to
have children and that wouldlead to a higher risk of breast
cancer and potentially ovarianand uterine cancer.
Tina (39:57):
Interesting.
Sure.
Yeah.
having children lowers yourrisk.
Leah (40:00):
And I think.
A really big one, um, that wesee in the United States
healthcare disparities, sopeople not having access to,
medicine, to doctors, to healthyfood.
That in itself is a risk factorfor cancer at any age, but, um,
definitely can affect youngerpeople.
Tina (40:23):
I I think that most people probably don't get taken very
seriously when they go in.
If you're under 45 and you havesymptoms, they're gonna think
it's other things so, so theother piece of advice is be
persistent.
If you do see the doctor andthey don't help you go back and
tell them That didn't work.
What else you got?
So I think it's really importantto not, stop until you're
(40:44):
symptom free is really basicallyit.
And that should be not stopuntil you have a good diagnosis.
'cause even without symptoms.
You can, you can allay a symptombut still have the problem
underlying it.
You know, you could take a drugand stop, uh, I don't know.
You could stop diarrhea.
And, and well that's not reallyhelping if you don't have a
proper diagnosis.
So always make sure you know thecondition that's causing it.
(41:06):
And if you're not getting thatpersist, it's not always easy to
advocate, self-advocate, but,you know, bring someone who
likes to do that kind of stuff.
There's, we all have thosepeople in our lives.
I am one of those people, so Iknow.
Leah (41:20):
Okay.
So we've been talking mostlyabout like breast and
colorectal.
We mentioned gastric cancer.
So what are the cancers that weare seeing higher incidence in
younger patients?
Tina (41:31):
Mm-hmm.
At, at least in the us.
Um, according to the AmericanCancer Society, the most common
cancers in young adults arebreast cancer lymphomas, both
non-Hodgkin and Hodgkin melanomasarcomas.
cancers of the female genitaltract.
So that's cervical and ovariancancers, thyroid cancer,
testicular cancer, colorectalcancer brain and spinal cord
(41:55):
tumors.
So those are the most common,according to the American Cancer
Society here.
doesn't mean they're allincreasing in incidences.
We have talked about a couplethat are, but those are the ones
to look out for
Leah (42:06):
Yeah, and I had read that, those cancers, so colorectal,
breast, prostate, uterine,gastric, small intestine.
Kidney and pancreatic cancersare three times higher in
patients born in 1990 versus1955.
Tina (42:23):
oh, wow.
Three times higher.
That's, that's a lot.
Yeah.
Well, and I just wanna say theother thing, which is, you know,
maybe people are curious, like,how do I know my symptoms, even
a symptom of cancer?
And I'm gonna go through thequick list by the American
Cancer Society for that too.
an unusual lump or swelling,especially in the neck, breast,
belly or testicle.
So get that checked out if youfeel something.
(42:44):
Unexplained.
Tiredness and loss of energy.
And that's usually profound,right?
Easy bruising, abnormalbleeding, pain in one part of
the body that just won't goaway.
Unexplained fever that won't goaway.
Frequent headaches sometimes ifthat headache comes along with
vomiting, obviously not if youhave a cold or a flu, but if it
happens repeatedly, I would puton here night sweats.
(43:06):
So middle of the night you getall hot and sweaty.
that's my own addition.
Sudden eye or visual changes,loss of appetite or unplanned
weight loss.
Don't explain it away.
If you have unplanned weightloss, you do need to get that
checked out.
And then of course, for yourskin, a new mole or other spot
on the skin or one that changes.
Shape, color, or size.
(43:26):
That's all the signs orsymptoms.
Leah (43:28):
And then some considerations for younger
adults when they are diagnosedwith cancer.
talking to your doctor about,fertility preservation is really
important.
treatments can cause sterilityso whether, so whether that's,
you know, like a sperm bank orcryo-preservation, where you're
(43:50):
retrieving eggs and savingthose, you know, those are
really important conversationsto have.
and I think that's frequentlymissed.
and then how do you talk to yourkids after you've been
diagnosed?
Finding someone, findingresources to help you talk with
your children after a cancerdiagnosis.
you can talk with your care teamand see if they have resources
(44:11):
for you, and then talking topeople about, you know, the, the
impact on, on your work.
You know, do you talk to youremployers?
how do you like juggle goingthrough treatment and working,
Tina (44:24):
Most can.
Centers do have, counselors andsocial workers, and I think
they're underutilized.
I think you shouldn't wait for areferral.
You need to advocate for thattoo.
I think it's really helpful.
I think it's something that weas professionals should also
make more use of.
I mean, it came to the pointwhere I felt like everyone
(44:45):
should do an interview with,with the team, whoever the
counselors and social workersare at a given center.
I know they don't, they're notusually staffed to the point
where everyone can go see them,but boy, would that be awesome
because then people don't havea, I don't know, what's the word
I'm looking for?
preconceived notion as to whythey're being referred there.
Right?
Like, you know, I think PE it'shard for us to admit we need
(45:07):
help sometimes and especiallyemotionally.
So I think it'd be great if itwas everybody got screened.
Leah (45:12):
I mean, both cancer centers I've worked at, they had
patients during intake process,meeting with counselors and.
Tina (45:21):
Yes, making it universal removes the taboo.
Leah (45:24):
Yeah, for sure.
I know one of the big concernsthat I have seen on social
media, and read in articles, theconcerns about how do you date
with cancer, with a cancerdiagnosis, and talking about sex
with an after cancer.
these are big topics that, findsomeone to talk about that with,
(45:47):
like, reach out, ask youroncologist, ask your team.
Tina (45:52):
Because there's physical and psychological barriers or
hurdles often after cancertreatment.
Leah (45:58):
Absolutely.
Okay.
So, um, if you are listening andyou are a.
A person who has not beendiagnosed with cancer and does
not have a history of cancer,what are things you can do to
reduce your risk?
We've mentioned some of them sofar.
Trying to improve your sleep,your sleep, environment.
adding diversity of plants toyour diet.
(46:21):
reducing ultra processed food,reducing processed meats, and
reducing alcohol.
These are things that we havetalked about.
Oh, increasing fiber.
That's another one.
So that's part of your plantfoods.
Right?
You're increasing fiber.
You're increasing those, thosecolors I think we've covered all
of these.
Tina (46:37):
I know I was thinking the same thing.
We've actually discussed each ofthese at length.
Leah (46:40):
Yeah.
As I'm going through the list,I'm like, wait, that was this
episode?
That was that episode.
I think.
Did we talk about processedbeets?
I don't know, but I'm sure we'vementioned them before.
Tina (46:49):
yeah.
And I mentioned how sleep is sofoundational.
We actually had two episodes onpeople who have trouble
sleeping.
So if people go back to that,we're very specific on what you
can do, conventionally and with,with natural agents to help with
sleep and,'cause there'sdifferent reasons that we, you
know, wake up in the night orcan't get to sleep in the first
place or whatever.
So we have addressed that.
You're right.
And then we've addressedalcohol.
Yeah.
Leah (47:09):
we've addressed fiber.
We just talked about ultraprocessed foods.
So Yeah, actual items.
We got all, we got all theresources for you.
Tina (47:18):
The ultra processed foods is in the, seed oil episode.
So that's just our last episodebefore this one.
Leah (47:24):
Yeah.
And we're both kind of excitedabout our next episode.
Oh my gosh.
Well, I really enjoy it becausepart of our assignment for
research is watching Netflix andHulu, which is one of my
favorite things to do,
Tina (47:37):
So I wanna ask our listeners to do this too, where
ask people to go ahead and watchsome of these programs so that
the follow up podcast will makesense,
Leah (47:45):
yeah.
So we are talking about, fakesand frauds people who lied about
having cancer.
so we are watching Anatomy ofLies.
Tina (47:54):
which is, I gotta say this, which is about a writer
who wrote for Grey's Anatomy andshe was a faker of cancer.
Leah (48:01):
oh, she was a faker of so many things that, that is.
So,
Tina (48:05):
Diabolical
Leah (48:06):
oh, it's just insane.
It's insane.
Um, and then why don't Iremember the other things we
watched?
Tina (48:12):
Scamanda.
Leah (48:13):
Oh, Scamanda, that's on Hulu.
Tina (48:15):
Yeah.
That one feels a little bit likea Hallmark movie, but you know,
it's still worth watching.
Leah (48:19):
the thing with Scamanda is it's a b, C news and so it's
very much like if you werewatching like Nightline or or
one of those a b bbc Well, they,they like kind of, they, they
repeat a lot of stuff.
Tina (48:29):
It's the one you can kind of be watching while you're
doing something else'cause theyrepeat themselves.
Leah (48:34):
Yeah, I was doing a lot of rewinding it.
It's really interesting.
Um, and then the third one iswe're gonna, to, we're gonna
talk about Bell Gibson.
And so,
Tina (48:44):
Not Mel Gibson, bell Gibson.
Leah (48:46):
Mel Gibson's a completely different episode, but yes, we
are talking about Belle Gibsonand I'm sure many of you have
heard of her.
she was in Australia and she.
Pretended to have cancer andreally created a huge following.
Well, we'll go, we'll go into itmore in, our next episode.
So that's what we're recordingnext.
And so right now we're justdoing the research by watching
(49:09):
these.
Tina (49:10):
We're doing the research.
This is hard work folks.
Leah (49:12):
It's my favorite kind of research.
Okay, so, um, again, thanks forlistening.
And
Tina (49:20):
That's a, that's a loose use of the term, but go ahead.
Leah (49:23):
again, if you like this episode, leave us a comment,
leave us a review, a rating,
Tina (49:29):
Yeah, give us a shout out.
Email us, you know, we'rearound.
Leah (49:32):
share the episode with your, with your friends and
family.
Tina (49:35):
And consider us a resource when you need us.
Leah (49:37):
On that note, I'm Dr.
Leah Sherman,
Tina (49:39):
And I'm Dr.
Tina Kaczor.
Leah (49:40):
and this is the Cancer Pod.
Tina (49:41):
Until next time.
Tina,
Tina (00:01):
Leia.
Leah (00:02):
it's kind of exciting.
We have a membership now.
Tina (00:04):
I would love to get to know some folks who are
listening to us.
Leah (00:06):
Yeah.
So if somebody wants to join usin our membership in our cancer
pod community, they can headover to our website and
Tina (00:16):
Don't we become a pod of our own, like a pod of people?
Leah (00:19):
we become a pod, which kind of makes me think of
evasion of body snatchers, but,um, but anyway, um, yeah, head
over to our website and youclick on buy me a coffee, and if
you want, you can just buy us acoffee, a one-time deal, or you
can join our membership.
We have three levels to choosefrom, and each one offers
(00:42):
different bonus content andexclusive benefits.
Tina (00:46):
We're gonna be doing live events with our membership so
that you can ask questions.
of course we cannot give medicaladvice'cause we are not your
doctors, but we can give generaladvice
Leah (00:57):
You can also, if you have any questions for us or
comments, you can leave thosemessages on our website as well.
The cancer pod.com.
Tina (01:06):
and they can be good or bad.
But if you have any critiques,then be constructive and help us
out.
Leah (01:11):
Don't be mean and remember to share this episode, your
favorite episode or the wholepodcast with friends, family.
Tina (01:22):
We're really a resource now.
I mean we have over a hundredepisodes.
A lot of them are very specificto side effects during treatment
or challenges duringsurvivorship after treatment.
so It's becoming quite thelibrary of information that if
you go ahead and hit followwherever you're listening to us
right now, you can go back andfind whatever you need in past
episodes.
'cause they are free andavailable.
Leah (01:44):
And leave a review and rate us wherever you listen
because that helps more peoplefind us.
And all of that helps us stay adfree, and that's important to
us.
Tina (01:57):
Yeah.
And we can keep on doing whatwe're doing.
Make it a podcast SinceSeptember, 2021.
Leah (02:03):
so today we're gonna be talking about.
It's been in the news aboutyoung people, younger people
getting cancer.
Um, are younger people gettingmore cancer?
Are younger people gettingcancers that are typically not
common for people their age?
So
Tina (02:21):
Mm-hmm.
And is this a phenomenon that isunique to the United States or
is it more of a global issue?
So we'll talk about that andmore
Leah (02:29):
stick around.
Tina (2) (02:30):
I'm Dr.
Tina Kayser, and as Leia likesto say, I'm the science y one.
Leah (02:34):
And I'm Dr.
Leia Sherman, and I'm the cancerinsider.
Tina (2) (02:38):
And we're two naturopathic doctors who
practice integrative cancercare.
Leah (02:42):
But we're not your doctors.
Tina (2) (02:44):
This is for education, entertainment, and informational
purposes only.
Leah (02:48):
Do not apply any of this information without first
speaking to your doctor.
Tina (2) (02:53):
The views and opinions expressed on this podcast by the
hosts and their guests aresolely their own.
Leah (02:59):
Welcome to the Cancer Pod.
Hi Tina.
Tina (03:06):
Hello Leah?
Leah (03:07):
today we're talking about young adults and cancer,
Tina (03:11):
Yes.
Is the incidents on the riseand, uh, if so, why?
Leah (03:17):
right?
there are a lot of differenttheories out there.
we have our own views yeah, sowhen they talk about younger
people, it is typically peopleunder, 45, I guess, is kind of
what they're looking at.
it's interesting because thestudy that I saw.
Looked at two different groups.
It looked at millennials andboomers, which is, you know,
(03:37):
being a member of Gen X, feelinga little left out, especially
because there are higher cancerincidence rates in Gen X as
well.
But they're looking atmillennials and so that's people
who are born between 1981 and1996.
however old that makes them.
Dang it, my math is bad.
Tina (03:54):
The youngest millennials will turn 30 in 2026.
Leah (03:58):
Really?
Tina (04:00):
Yes.
You're getting old.
Leah (04:02):
Oh my god.
All right, so there are somecancers.
I mean, I guess every cancerkind of has, its typical age
range.
And what's really unusual isthat there are cancers that are
more associated with olderpeople.
People over the age of 50, thatyounger people are getting
things like pancreatic cancer,renal cancer.
Tina (04:24):
You know, I just wanna put out there, this is not, I wanna
say something right here at thebeginning age.
And the aging process is a riskfactor for cancer.
So you can't stop that one.
There's only one way to stopaging, and that's not a good's
not a good option,
Leah (04:39):
It's not recommended.
Tina (04:40):
right?
So I'm saying that because rightoutta the gates, even when we
say these are higher in youngerpeople, it still is not near the
rates of what people get afterthe age of say, 60, 65.
We're talking about a different,it's higher in the age group,
but it doesn't come close towhat people are getting as they
age.
'cause aging itself is a riskfactor that we can't do anything
about other than not ageanymore, which means that you're
(05:03):
not here.
So I'm saying that outta thegates.
'cause I just wanna be veryclear that even when we say the
incidence is higher, it's stilla very low incidence in a, in a
global sense.
Like when you're looking at thenumbers compared to higher,
ages.
Leah (05:15):
And I think in, like in my work experience working at CTCA,
I saw a lot of younger peoplewho had breast cancer, colon
cancer, you know, ovariancancer, just more unusual, I
don't wanna say unusual cancers,but I saw a lot of younger
people because that's wherepeople went.
Tina (05:33):
Yes.
Yes.
Leah (05:35):
That's where they would travel to because of whatever
care they were or were notgetting where they came from
because maybe they weren'tdiagnosed in a timely manner.
Whatever happened then theywould go to CTCA.
When I went to Indiana thepatient population was so much
older and I think that istypical,
Tina (05:52):
Mm-hmm.
Leah (05:53):
for the most part.
So anyways, that's just anaside.
But yeah, so.
Tina (05:58):
Can I say one more thing on a scale of aging?
Even when we talk about youngcancers, we're not talking about
pediatric.
So pediatric is under 18 yearsold, so that's a separate
category and a separatediscussion.
We're really looking at youngadults, which is, you know, like
we said, really under 50.
So round numbers is 20 to 50,and as you age within the 20 to
(06:19):
50 range, the risk does go upbecause aging is in there.
That risk factor is still there,even.
When you are considered a youngadult with cancer.
So that's all.
I just wanna be very clear aboutthe population we're talking
about.
Leah (06:30):
and I don't know where I saw it in my research for this,
but, um, early onset breastcancer is considered younger
than 45, and colorectal isconsidered younger than 50.
Tina (06:40):
Mm-hmm.
Leah (06:41):
And I do remember a long time ago, um, I.
I was a big fan of the TodayShow, and I used to watch, Katie
Couric her husband was diagnosedwith colon cancer and he was in
his forties and that was reallyunusual at the time.
he passed away and it was just,the whole thing was just really,
I remember like, I wasn'tworking in, medicine, I was
(07:03):
working in graphic design at thetime, and I just remember just,
it was just, it was all reallysurprising because it was so
unusual.
you know, now we hear about, Imean, not only people who follow
us on.
Our, social media, but you know,celebrities, um, Chadwick,
Bozeman,
Tina (07:20):
Hmm.
Leah (07:21):
um, James VanDerBeek.
You know, these are young peoplewho, were diagnosed at a young
age.
Tina (07:29):
Yeah.
And when we're talking aboutcolorectal cancer, just like
people over 50, people under 50need to be screened.
And if we can find that cancerat earlier stages, the outcomes
are much, much better thanfinding it at a later stage of
disease.
in the grand scheme, brightsided to all of this, when you
(07:49):
compare a people over 15, peopleunder 50 with colorectal cancer,
specifically, people who areyounger do have better outcomes.
They have less recurrence, theylive longer.
there's been studies that havecompared, um, young adults with
colorectal cancer from peoplewho are over the age of 50.
the outcomes are generallybetter.
Now, I don't know if that's dueto more aggressive treatment or
(08:09):
just healthier because you'reyounger and you have more
resilience built in.
it doesn't matter.
But on the bright side, um, itdoes have a better prognosis.
Leah (08:18):
If it's diagnosed.
And I mean, that's one goodthing about the, the guidelines
for colonoscopies being changed,and now it's 45,
Tina (08:27):
Mm-hmm.
Leah (08:27):
where it used to be 50 to get your colonoscopy unless you
had a family history.
Tina (08:33):
That was for Caucasians.
It has been 45 for AfricanAmericans for a while.
Leah (08:37):
Okay.
but yeah, so if you had a familyhistory, then it would be based
on the age that, your relativewas, diagnosed, But, am finding,
and maybe this is just again,you know, because we have a
certain population who followsus on social media, it's not
always diagnosed in a timelymanner when you are younger than
(08:59):
45 because it's being dismissedas you have IBS you have
hemorrhoids,
Tina (09:04):
Yes.
Leah (09:04):
Al and I think it's the same with breast cancer.
I mean, I don't know how manyyoung patients I had who were
diagnosed with breast cancer,under 30, who were told, oh,
it's not breast cancer.
You're too young to have cancer.
Tina (09:17):
Honestly, that's where all those numbers that I'm talking
about work against you as anindividual.
So you're an individual showingup at your doctor with whatever
symptomology, x, y, Z symptoms.
And that doctor is playingpercentages in their head, like,
what's the likelihood that thisis benign?
What's the likelihood that thisis cancer?
So they're gonna probably notdiagnose it right out of the
(09:38):
gates.
So your, your age works againstyou in some ways in finding it
early.
Leah (09:42):
Yeah.
Tina (09:43):
And I, I think that's a lot of the times the case.
One bright spot there is forcolorectal cancer, in July of
2024, the FDA approved a newtest, a blood test for
colorectal cancer that is just ablood draw.
So in some ways it's easier toget.
That done.
and get your doctor to agree tojust, can you just put that on
my, on my lab or if you live ina state that allows it, you can
(10:07):
order it yourself.
depends what state you live in,in the nation.
'cause healthcare in the UnitedStates is state by state.
There are stool tests forcolorectal cancer that can be
done, but this is a blood test,so I feel like adoption will be
faster than it was for stooltesting, which is the Cologuard
commercial with that little bluebox that smiles and, yeah, it's
the same company.
This is called shield.
(10:27):
The name of the test is, iscalled Shield.
Leah (10:29):
Okay.
And we could put a link to thatin our show notes.
Tina (10:32):
Yeah.
Leah (10:39):
So, okay.
So there are, five or sixtheories, as to why younger
people are getting cancer orthat they're being diagnosed
with cancer.
Um, and the first one isepigenetics,
Tina (10:55):
Epigenetics?
Leah (10:56):
which is different than genetics.
So there is that, I guess weshould start with that.
So what is it like five to 10%of all people who are diagnosed
with cancer?
It's actually genetic.
Tina (11:09):
Mm-hmm.
I think we're gonna find out.
It's depending on which type ofcancer, I think it's gonna be
when we finally find multi genesthat put together, like if you
have these three or five or 17genes, do you have a high risk?
We're getting there with thatkind of data for single genes,
like one gene, like the BRCAgene, BRCA mutation, or deletion
So when it's a single gene, Iwould say it's gonna be 10% or
(11:31):
so.
Leah (11:31):
Okay, so we're not gonna talk about that.
We're not gonna talk about the,the genetic component.
Tina (11:36):
we did tackle genetic cancers once upon a time.
It's in our catalog back in 2021or 2022.
Leah (11:41):
yeah.
So again, we'll, we'll link tothat.
okay, so then the other word Isaid epigenetics.
What, what are epigenetics,Tina?
Tina (11:48):
Epi.
Literally means above.
So above the gene.
So this is ways that our genesare turned on or off.
So epigenetics has to do withregulation of the gene.
And epigenes is veryconsequential.
It is highly responsive to itsenvironment.
So for example, withepigenetics, you can unmask,
(12:12):
meaning you begin to express agene that's been silenced for
generations and generations.
But if your environment,literally your environment where
the DNA is literally thecellular environment, what it's
in needs, that gene it over timesays, oh, we have reason to
unmask this gene.
(12:32):
Let's go ahead and do it.
It will then uncover a genethat's been silenced.
It's been sitting there, but itjust hasn't done anything until
you provoke it.
And so we change our epigeneticsmore.
Readily than the actual geneitself, which is made up of ATT
c and g.
You know that little spiral thatwe all think of A DNA looks
like, right?
It
Leah (12:52):
All the way back to, to, you know, biology class.
Tina (12:55):
Yeah.
The helix, the double helix ofDNA, that's a whole nother
story, but the double helix ofthe DNA is att C and g and that
does not change as readily.
That's very difficult changingthat the epigenetics is more
fluid and changes generation togeneration.
So if my my great grandfatherwas a chimney sweep.
that might have consequences onmy epigenetics today because his
(13:18):
body had to uncover genes todeal with the soot.
Does that make sense?
Leah (13:22):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So your parents or grandparents'exposures, they have an
influence on your epigenetics.
Tina (13:29):
Yes, and it's generational, so it's very slow
and hard to track.
I think we are seeing someepigenetic results of what our
grandparents and even our greatgrandparents saw when we had
pesticides like DDT that werepervasive.
Everybody was exposed to them.
Leah (13:45):
Oh yeah, because we've, all heard stories about people
running after the, the mosquitospring, the fogger, the truck
that had the fog coming out theback.
yeah, I remember like the planesgoing over, spraying pesticides,
over certain areas in placeswhere I've lived so.
Tina (14:01):
Yeah.
And the idea that theepigenetics is consequential,
has been proven in animals againand again.
So there's no, there's no dearthof information on this.
There's plenty of informationshowing that, you know, it is
not your parents, but yourgrandparents and even their,
their parents that gets handeddown.
I think the most acute phasewhen this is happening is during
(14:23):
pregnancy.
I think that's a time that wehave to really think about how
things are being handed downbecause When someone's pregnant,
when the ovaries in the fetusare forming, there could be
consequences, right?
Then that is when the geneticsof that baby's children and
whenever that baby goes on tohave children.
Those ovaries are already set.
The stage is set for yourovaries in utero when you're a
(14:46):
fetus.
For men, it's different.
Sperm comes and goes.
Sperm generation is not set whenyou're a fetus.
Sperm generation is now.
And so I mean, that personshould really be very, very,
very conscious of no drugs, noalcohol, no, no chemicals, no
pesticides, eat like super dupercleanly, all that kind of stuff.
Leah (15:08):
They have to live in a bubble.
They basically have to live in abubble.
Tina (15:11):
Well, you have to be conscientious, I think.
I think that we can all.
Do our best.
It's impossible to be, you know,where we were before the
industrial age.
That's not gonna happen becauseeven our air, in every city is,
is not what it used to be.
So,
Leah (15:25):
Well, that can lead us to the another one, which is
environmental exposures, right?
So epigenetics and environmentalexposures, they're very
intertwined.
Tina (15:35):
absolutely.
Yeah.
Leah (15:37):
And we have discussed this before.
we talked about microplastics,we talked about forever,
chemicals in different episodes.
all of those.
Play a part, yeah, I mean, onceyou become conscious of it, it's
almost, I, it's, so for me it'svery stress inducing because
it's like every, there, there'sjust plastic everywhere.
Everywhere.
Tina (15:58):
I feel like when you start looking at clothing, you really
start to go, oh.
Leah (16:01):
right.
With all the microfiber, the,um, sportswear, endurance, wear,
hiking stuff, all of that.
Yeah.
We're, we're trying to shiftmore to products made from wool.
but it's, it's hard.
I mean, you look at yoursneakers, you look at
everything, you're hiking shoes,it's, it's just kind of
everywhere.
you look in your kitchen andit's just, it's shocking how
(16:24):
much plastic, we have in ourrefrigerator and Yeah.
In your grocery cart.
Tina (16:28):
Yeah, I'm a fan of the old school, right?
Like, just go backwards.
You use glass, use ball, jars,glass is usually inert.
Leah (16:34):
But when you buy something, when you buy, like
things from a deli counter, youknow, cheese or whatever,
they'll ask, do you want us towrap it in paper or plastic?
And we're always like, paper.
but not, not everyone has that.
Um, so if you buy packagedcheese, it comes in plastic and
then you go home, you take itoutta the plastic and you put it
in class.
But it's already been, it'salready been in plastic.
(16:56):
It's, um, and I don't wanna gotoo much into this because we
have talked about microplasticsbefore.
Tina (17:01):
Yeah.
And they, they do disturb thegut.
Leah (17:04):
Right?
And they're found, I mean, they,they, they've been found in,
throughout us, like in our, youknow, our bodies.
Um,
Tina (17:11):
Even in the sacred space of the brain.
Leah (17:13):
yeah, they've been found in the brain.
They've been found in testiculartissue.
Tina (17:18):
If they can pass the blood-brain barrier, yeah, they
can go anywhere.
Leah (17:21):
Yeah.
Tina (17:22):
ultimately,
Leah (17:23):
Yeah.
And, but there are otherenvironmental exposures too.
you know, the forever chemicalsare what we think of, like with
the Teflon pan, when Teflon pancame out, those were just such a
godsend.
Everybody used Teflon pan andthen they'd get scraped.
And I remember'cause you'reusing the wrong utensils, and so
then they get scraped and allthat Teflon comes up.
That is so bad for you.
Tina (17:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's not so inert.
I mean, if you're cooking overabout 400 degrees, which is not
difficult, then it starts todegrade whether it's scratched
or not.
So there are better alternativesnow to that.
it's really hard to trackenvironmentally because we live
in a soup, right, of so manydifferent exposures.
Our soil, our air quality,sometimes the water quality.
(18:03):
So it's really a, it's not aneasy one to track back and say,
oh, you know, that exposure orthat exposure.
Every time we find one that'sreally focused upon like DDT or
dioxin, we do our best to, youknow, regulate that.
But there is no, like you said,it's, a challenging one'cause
there's nowhere that you cancompletely escape it.
Leah (18:23):
No.
And we have our, our cabin up innorthern Wisconsin, and we have
a septic tank.
And when they come and emptythat septic tank.
Is everything that we use withinthe house and you know, the
cleaners and everything that weput in there, everything is just
very clean and natural.
But I take medicine, I'm takingTamoxifen, and so that is in
(18:45):
that waste, and they will takethat waste and they will spray
it on fields.
And the fields aren'tnecessarily growing food for
humans, but it's out there.
So, and you know, fortunately wedon't take a ton of medications
and so it's not, you know, thiswhole pharmaceutical soup that's
in there, but like the thoughtthat they're doing this from
(19:07):
multiple homes and they'respraying fields and then the
runoff will go into the riverand the river goes, you know,
down into wherever you know itjust.
That's crazy.
Like, isn't that crazy thatthey're spraying human waste and
what, like, that's not even thegrossest part.
Like, like it's everything thatyou put in there.
(19:29):
And so they're finding, youknow, they're, you know, p FFAs
and stuff in there too.
So, and then they're not P FFAs,P FFAs.
Am I saying that right?
Tina (19:38):
But you gotta tell folks what that means.
Leah (19:40):
Well, those are forever chemicals.
I'm not gonna break down whatit, it's a
Tina (19:43):
Well, yeah.
Yeah.
No, yeah.
You don't have to say the wordwhen you say P Fs, I don't.
I think you lost people.
That's
Leah (19:49):
Oh, okay.
Well, forever chemicals.
Forever chemicals.
And then of course, the thingthat I brought up in previous
episodes is I went to art schoolin the eighties and there was a
lot of exposure to the solvents.
Um, the coloring in oil paintsthat we would get on our hands,
then clean it with solvents.
We just like, we didn't care,you know?
(20:11):
And so all of that.
Tina (20:12):
Well, and I think a lot of folks still do that.
Like they, they'll, I've seenit.
People paint or they're doingwork or they're like, I don't
know.
All sorts of people don't takethe precautions'cause they
think, oh, it's just gonna be, Ido this all the time, or it
doesn't hurt.
Leah (20:26):
Right.
Or I remember, um, like in photolab, you know, we'd be in the
dark room and we're just likepulling them out.
You have little tongs, butyou're just like, whatever.
And you just grab it with yourhand, you know, it's, you're
18-year-old thing and yourphotography professor is doing
the same thing.
So, so there're just like somany different ways that we are
(20:47):
being exposed to things.
Tina (20:48):
So back to the young adults with cancer, one of the
things that we don't talk about,we we're talking about
microplastics now, but there'salso a lot of dyes in the, in
these plastics, and there's beenheavy metals used to make the
plastics pretty colors.
And so even in playgrounds,Playgrounds used arsenic in the
wood.
That wasn't good.
(21:08):
They got that out and theystarted using plastics, and the
plastics had, heavy metals init.
So there's, there's a lot ofexposures that we've introduced
because we don't have a systemthat makes sure something is
safe.
We have a system that doublechecks to see if it's toxic, and
if so, at what amount?
If we check it at all.
Leah (21:27):
Even, um, tattoos
Tina (21:29):
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Leah (21:31):
and, you know, speaking as a tattooed person, you know,
there are various heavy metalsbut depending on when you were.
Tattooed.
I don't know if they're makingthem healthier now.
I have no idea.
But, um, the tattoo ink, youknow, different pigments that
are used they have various heavymetals.
(21:52):
and then that process itself,the inflammation that keeps your
tattoo where it is
Tina (21:59):
Yeah.
And you know what's interestingabout this?
When we talk about heavy metals,you could argue those are
natural.
Because arsenic occurs innature, as does lead
Leah (22:06):
cadmium,
Tina (22:06):
academy.
They're all, these aren'tsynthetic chemicals we're
talking about when we say this.
So I just wanna say that.
'cause you know, not everythingnatural is, uh, is okay in any
dose either.
So this is an example where itactually is not good,
Leah (22:20):
Okay.
So, We've talked aboutepigenetics, we talked about
environmental exposures.
There is also, our internalenvironment, our microbiome that
also has been implicated in apossible cause for younger
people getting cancer.
Tina (22:36):
am very much into not just the microbiome of the gut, which
we have a lot of informationabout.
And we do have a lot of,indications that the bacteria
that inhabit the colon.
Or the breast ducts or theprostate.
Those organisms when there'scancer are different than when
(22:57):
someone does not have cancer.
They have studies where they,they remove the colorectal
cancer and then they look at thebacteria that are near the
tumor.
so the tumor has some bacterialpopulations that they name and
then they look adjacent to it.
same person, right?
Same day, same surgery.
The normal tissue next to thecancerous tissue has different
bacteria in it.
(23:19):
And so I think it's really youngas a, as a discipline, like to
figure out how the bacteria, andthere's other organisms, there's
viral particles, there'sbacteriophages, which are a type
of virus.
There's yeast in other fungus.
So there's a, there's a wholecommunity ecology everywhere
that there's bacteria, uh, thatwe say bacteria because it's the
dominant population and there'smore of that than anything else.
(23:41):
But the others may not be minorplayers.
They could be big players insome of the cancers.
We don't know.
So I, I think I'm way into themicrobiome, not just with gut,
but of the actual cancer.
I'm trying to get the word oncobiome to, to take hold.
You know, if you look for oncobiome right now, you're not
gonna see much.
But I think it's the apt termfor when the bacterial
communities are actually insidethe tumor.
(24:04):
They're in the cancer, which isheresy 20 years ago.
That's like, nah.
All inner organs with the bodyare sterile.
They're not, we now know thatthere are actual bacteria inside
certainly inside the tumors.
And so not only are they thereat the primary tumor, but
(24:26):
they're there when you look atthe metastasis of a tumor too.
So a colorectal cancer, you canlook at the tumor, look inside
it, you'll see certain bacteria.
There's one calledFusobacterium, nucleotum that's
really implicated.
Um, totally normal to have thatin your mouth.
You're not supposed to have itin your colon.
So it's like, I always think oflike ivy or Kudzu, you know,
like it's totally normal plantssomewhere else.
(24:47):
That's what I think of withthese bacteria and cancers like
that Fuso.
Bacterium.
Nucleo is totally normal in yoursaliva and no problem there, but
when you find it in the gut, itin, especially in the colon, it
is associated with colorectalcancers and it's actually inside
the colorectal cancer.
And if that colorectal cancerhappens to go somewhere else in
the body like the liver, and youtake that tumor outta the liver,
(25:11):
it's inside the tumor that's inthe liver.
So I mean, this is like, I'mtrying to get onco biome to like
really catch on and I'm like,that's what it is.
It's an onco biome oncologycancer biome.
Like it's a specific to thatcancer.
But we'll see.
We'll see if it evolves.
There's a few papers that usethe term, but it's not
commonplace yet.
I encourage all of our listenersto go talk about onco biomes.
Leah (25:31):
well, what I, what I thought was interesting is I
found, um, something that talkedabout how the biodiversity of
the gut in younger colorectalcancer patients is different
than the diversity of themicrobiome in older patients
with colorectal cancer.
I thought that was reallyinteresting too.
Tina (25:48):
You mean it's less diverse or
Leah (25:51):
they had less diversity than with an older patient.
Tina (25:55):
Okay.
Leah (25:56):
so that's like another thing where it is not
necessarily the sameenvironment, and so what some of
the things that might bealtering a microbiome, the
medications that we take,antibiotics,
Tina (26:08):
Antibiotics are independently linked to higher
risks of cancer.
Various cancers, breast cancers,colorectal cancers.
There's many cancers that areassociated with higher
antibiotic use in the past.
Leah (26:18):
And so what, what would higher use be?
Is there a definition for what'shigher use?
Tina (26:22):
No, it's a, it's a dose, linked association though.
The higher your antibiotic usein the past, it associates with
a higher rate of incident cancerlater.
Leah (26:36):
And so that would, that would have to do with your
diversity of what's living inyour, in your gut.
Tina (26:42):
Absolutely.
Maybe we did use antibioticsmore in certain decades than
others.
'cause we, we backed off, butonly more recently
Leah (26:49):
No, that's true.
Yeah.
Tina (26:51):
they're being used a little bit less.
But man, I think they were,antibiotics were given out like
candy in the, in the eighties.
Nineties,
Leah (26:56):
Well in, in seventies, I mean, in our, you know, more our
kind of growing up generation,um, whether or not you were a
C-section baby that definitelyplays a part in your microbiome.
Tina (27:08):
yes.
'cause you get your organismsfrom the vaginal canal.
Leah (27:12):
Yeah.
Um, breastfeeding.
Were you breastfed?
Were you bottle fed?
And so all of these, you know,there are trends, right?
I mean, when I was a baby, Ithink I was breastfed for a few
months and, you know, that, thatwhole formula thing, like when I
guess formula came out, it was agodsend, right?
I mean, it just kind of.
(27:33):
Save time.
Women could work You know, likeif their babies were fed
formula, they could go back towork.
and then it started to trendback to breastfeeding.
So it, yeah, it is interestingto see like that, you know, even
with, with having a c-section,you know, you have one child as
a C-section and then all yourchildren are C-section.
I don't believe that's how it isanymore.
(27:53):
your diet, I mean, that's kindof like the most obvious thing,
right?
Like your diet.
How does that affect yourmicrobiome?
It's everything.
Tina (28:01):
it's everything.
Generally speaking, diversity inthe gut.
If we're just talking aboutwhat's going on in the GI tract,
diversity is your friend.
so you do want diversity meansthat there's a lot of different
types of organism.
There's a lot of variety inthere.
So diversity is your friend,diversity in your gut, which
comes from diversity in yourdiet of plant foods.
Leah (28:22):
Yeah.
Tina (28:22):
Yes.
So that's, that's if, yeah, if,if you wanna know what to do,
you eat more color, it alwayscomes back down to the same
thing, same advice.
Eat a lot of plants and a lot ofdifferent types and a lot of
different colors.
Leaves and stems and flowers androots and tubers and, you know,
mix it all up and you'lleventually, um, have a very
diverse and healthy gut.
Leah (28:41):
And we've talked about before, having that 30 different
plants in your diet a week.
So that includes the spices, theherbs, you know, your grains,
all of that legumes.
I like saying legumes.
Tina (28:54):
Yeah.
You know, and probably theeasiest way to do that is you
have a little chart that youcan, that's almost like a little
laminated thing.
They, they sell these, usuallyit's for kids.
'cause we're we're trying to getkids to eat better.
and just make sure that that daythey had something yellow,
something red, something in theblue spectrum could be
blackberries that counts.
Accounts purple.
So just make sure that there'slots of color.
(29:14):
And if you do that, you know,every day, all the colors,
you'll probably get enoughvariety.
Doritos don't count.
I always have to add that.
'cause that's the first thingpeople ask me is like, Doritos.
And
Leah (29:25):
Oh, you're kidding.
Oh, that's funny.
Tina (29:27):
Yeah.
Well,'cause I think like Cheetosand Doritos leave all that
orange stuff on your hand, soit's the first thing people
think
Leah (29:31):
that's not, I mean, and they are plant-based, so I guess
I could see their argumentthere.
But, um, yeah, and, and again,even the brown foods, right, the
grains, the beans.
Tina (29:43):
Mm-hmm.
Leah (29:43):
Don't dismiss those either.
It doesn't just have to bewhat's in the rainbow.
It could be just what's in thefull spectrum.
Look, the Crayola box.
Let's start, let's start that.
Eat the,
Tina (29:53):
Eat the Crayola.
But is it the 16 count or
Leah (29:56):
No, it's the same.
I'm going for the 64.
The big box with, with the bigbox.
With
Tina (30:00):
Well, I, I'm thinking daily.
You're thinking weekly.
Leah (30:03):
I'm thinking we, yeah, I'm, I'm going.
But that, in that case it wouldbe the 32.
Anyways, uh, we're, we'redigressing.
okay.
And so then speaking of, of dietinfluencing the microbiome diet
in itself, the highly processed
Tina (30:24):
Calorically.
Dense.
Leah (30:26):
ultrapro, calorically, dense, nutritionally lacking
devoid, that's a good word.
Um, foods, uh, sedentarylifestyle.
obesity.
Obesity is a risk factor.
Tina (30:39):
Yeah, so, so each of those are independent risk factors.
And when we say that, that meansthat there are plenty of studies
to show that ultra processedfood is associated with higher
risk.
And I do think we haveintroduced those
multi-generational now, right?
So we have people who grew up onhighly processed food and then
went on to have children onhighly processed food.
(31:01):
So I think some of thoseepigenetic effects are due to.
Some of the multi-generationalnow changes in our diet, in our,
in our lifestyle.
So yes, the calorically densefoods that lead to obesity in
our sedentary lifestyle,
Leah (31:15):
Sedentary lifestyle.
I mean, we had PE in school, youknow, are kids still going out
and playing pe?
I don't have kids.
I don't know.
But it seems like a lot ofthings are getting cut in our
schools
Tina (31:28):
know, that's a really good point because if we say highly
processed food is associatedwith cancer, exercise is
associated with less cancer.
So another way to frame all ofthis is exactly that.
What if we stopped doing thatwas.
Anti-cancer, like maybe what weshould be looking at is not what
causes it, but what waspreventing it in the first place
(31:48):
and making sure that we addthose back, which is a little
bit more empowering than justsaying, you know, what causes
it.
Leah (31:54):
And again, there may still be PE in schools.
I just remember it was like anhour of, playing soccer or
softball or volleyball orwhatever.
Tina (32:04):
So let's be honest, there was that hour and then there was
all sorts of other hours becausewe didn't come home and jump on
a game box.
We came home and went and didstuff.
Leah (32:14):
That's true.
Yeah.
Tina (32:15):
We didn't, we didn't sit around.
We literally didn't just sitdown'cause we were kids and we
had a lot of energy.
And so, and I'm thinking justin, even in school, it would be
like I had a free period and youknow, we'd ask the gym teacher,
can we borrow the cross countryskis and try to, you know, go
down the hill over there.
And she's like, okay, sure.
So we did all sorts of things.
Leah (32:32):
Okay.
You went to a completelydifferent school than We never
had cross country skiing in anyof the schools I was at, but,
um, that's, that sounds kind offun actually.
but yeah, I was in drama and sowe were dancing, you know, we
were doing all of that sort ofthing.
But yeah, we weren't sittingaround in front of a, a monitor
(32:53):
playing games.
I did watch a lot of tv, butyeah.
But I would also go in thebackyard and, you know, try to
practice softball'cause I washorrible at it.
Or climb trees, all of thatstuff.
We were outside more.
It doesn't explain why ourgeneration also is getting,
Tina (33:09):
Well, we were outside more, but we also were not being
monitored, so maybe we were likeliterally like the classic, be
home by dark.
And so it's, I don't know aboutyou, but I went all the way down
to the park in the village,across the golf course, down the
hill.
I'm like,
Leah (33:25):
oh, we were riding our bikes.
Like
Tina (33:27):
yeah, at very young ages we were out and about going,
traveling around is my point.
So that,
Leah (33:33):
we sound like old people.
We sound like old people rightnow.
Being like, back in my day Iused to walk uphill both ways to
school.
yeah.
But definitely it's, it doesseem, it, I mean even my, like
now I feel like I'm moresedentary with social media.
Like I'm way more sedentary thanI used to be.
Tina (33:50):
Oh yeah, me too.
Leah (33:51):
Like it's,
Tina (33:52):
this, these screens that were staring at a lot of my work
is on a screen.
Yeah.
Leah (33:57):
Yeah.
Tina (33:57):
Admittedly, I'm not out and about.
Going to the park?
Leah (34:00):
no, but I am currently in Tucson and it is lovely weather
here, and I have been walkingthe dog for about half an hour a
day, which isn't a terrible longtime to walk, but I wear a
weighted vest even to kinda upmy game.
So there's 30 minutes of my 150minutes.
(34:21):
A week
Tina (34:23):
right?
Leah (34:24):
my exercise.
And so I have been doing that.
I've been here, I don't know howmany days, but yeah, I mean it's
a good habit to get into moving.
moving.
Even if, and this is something Iwould tell my patients all the
time, just put on some music.
Put on a song, and dance to it.
Everyone's got a song.
You don't like dancing, justmove to it.
(34:44):
Move.
Tina (34:45):
I like it.
Leah (34:46):
so, anyways, okay.
So yeah, so, another thing thatI have read is a theory as to
why there may be you know, morediagnoses of cancer in young
people.
sleep.
'cause we were talking aboutdevices, um, being on social
media, all of that causesalterations to our sleep cycle.
And so sleep is when our bodyrepairs.
(35:07):
If you're not getting a.
That repairing going on, that isbad.
That's really bad.
Tina (35:14):
Yes.
I think if people do wannapursue that as.
Where the evidence is light atnight, LAN has been studied
extensively and light at nightis associated with higher cancer
incidents.
we have a lot of light at nightnow.
I mean, all you have to do islook at a map and see how bright
cities are.
You can see it from satelliteimages.
(35:35):
there's something called clockgenes that's probably at the
heart of this.
So we should respect thecircadian rhythm that we
associate with our best healthand our best function.
That is you sleep at night andyou're awake in the day, you eat
in the daytime, you don't eat inthe night.
You know, there's these littlecues, biological cues that you
send your body, that help itnormalize its function, whether
(35:56):
it's immune function orendocrine function.
and certainly brain function isbest when you.
Get a good deep sleep, you getthese waves of glymphatic that
clear the brain.
And so there's no downside tothis is my point.
And if you don't, if you do havelight at night when you're
sleeping, put something on, puta mask on, um,
Leah (36:16):
Eye mask,
Tina (36:17):
yeah.
Put a eye
Leah (36:19):
a sleep eye
Tina (36:19):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
If you can't make it pitch dark,then, then that's your second
way of doing it.
And a lot of folks like to dothat because then you can pick
the mask up if you have to go tothe bathroom and see where
you're going.
Leah (36:28):
The other thing you can do is, because there are devices,
like we have a HEPA filter inour room and I put tape over the
little light'cause there's likea dim function where you can
kind of dim the light of theHEPA filter, but there's still a
little light.
And so you could just put likeseveral layers of, you know,
tape over that light.
Tina (36:47):
Yes.
Very important.
It's essential.
This is like foundational, thisis like eating your veggies,
get, get a good night's sleep.
And total darkness is reallyimportant.
the last thing we wanted to talkabout was early detection,
right?
I mentioned it a little bitearly in the show, but detecting
things earlier is always a goodidea.
Leah (37:07):
Well it And is that, why is early detection, why, you
know, because imaging is gettingso much better.
Is that why more cancers arebeing found?
Tina (37:17):
Mm,
Leah (37:18):
are, is it just because like imaging is so much better?
Tina (37:22):
I don't think so because most of the colorectal cancer is
stage three and four.
That would've been picked up on,um, CAT scan of 20 years ago
still would've picked it up.
Oh, I do wanna say this though.
I don't think this is connectedto Covid at all.
Like I should say, we can'tblame the Covid pandemic in any
way because a lot of this hashappening in prior to 2020.
Leah (37:42):
Right.
So there were, uh, there werethe conspiracy theories that it
was not only Covid, but it wasalso the Covid vaccine.
this trend of younger peoplebeing diagnosed with cancer
started in the nineties.
Tina (37:54):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's just gone up since.
I will say this though, whetherit is infection or a vaccine,
anything that causes systemicinflammation to be kicked up can
cause cancer to grow faster atthat time, progress faster.
So systemic inflammation,whenever there's a tumor,
(38:14):
systemic inflammation generallymeans that it's going to grow,
it's gonna cause it to grow.
We've done this in animalsrepeatedly'cause we have an
experimental model with animalswhere the poor little things we,
we create inflammation in theirlittle paw pads and then we see
what happens in other parts oftheir body.
So.
We've done this multiple timeswith, in multiple experiments
with animals, and I don't thinkit's any different for humans.
(38:36):
Systemic inflammation can causea cancer to grow.
Leah (38:40):
It could be caused by, Infections that aren't being
addressed.
Um, different exposures therewas an article from University
of Chicago and they were talkingabout chronic inflammation as
being a potential reason.
Tina (38:54):
Yeah.
Chronic inflammation is apotential reason, and you still
need the microbiome in that areato be.
Skew.
there was a model, it wasactually done in the journal
science.
It was a model where they used hpylori and they, they proved
that h pylori was connected tostomach cancer, but only under
certain conditions, and it hadto be chronic inflammatory
(39:15):
conditions.
Leah (39:16):
And that is one of the cancers that, um, we are seeing
more and more young peoplegetting gastric cancer.
Tina (39:22):
Yeah, and I, I'm sure that's a delay of diagnosis
because generally speaking,that's not gonna be suspect in
people who are young.
it's not as common as breast andprostate and colorectal cancers
and other cancers like that.
So it's gonna be way, way downon a doctor's differential
diagnosis.
So yeah, I could see how that'sa delay of diagnosis a lot of
the time too.
Leah (39:41):
another possible theory was, people were giving birth
later, they were having fewerchildren, and also, waiting to
have children and that wouldlead to a higher risk of breast
cancer and potentially ovarianand uterine cancer.
Tina (39:57):
Interesting.
Sure.
Yeah.
having children lowers yourrisk.
Leah (40:00):
And I think.
A really big one, um, that wesee in the United States
healthcare disparities, sopeople not having access to,
medicine, to doctors, to healthyfood.
That in itself is a risk factorfor cancer at any age, but, um,
definitely can affect youngerpeople.
Tina (40:23):
I I think that most people probably don't get taken very
seriously when they go in.
If you're under 45 and you havesymptoms, they're gonna think
it's other things so, so theother piece of advice is be
persistent.
If you do see the doctor andthey don't help you go back and
tell them That didn't work.
What else you got?
So I think it's really importantto not, stop until you're
(40:44):
symptom free is really basicallyit.
And that should be not stopuntil you have a good diagnosis.
'cause even without symptoms.
You can, you can allay a symptombut still have the problem
underlying it.
You know, you could take a drugand stop, uh, I don't know.
You could stop diarrhea.
And, and well that's not reallyhelping if you don't have a
proper diagnosis.
So always make sure you know thecondition that's causing it.
(41:06):
And if you're not getting thatpersist, it's not always easy to
advocate, self-advocate, but,you know, bring someone who
likes to do that kind of stuff.
There's, we all have thosepeople in our lives.
I am one of those people, so Iknow.
Leah (41:20):
Okay.
So we've been talking mostlyabout like breast and
colorectal.
We mentioned gastric cancer.
So what are the cancers that weare seeing higher incidence in
younger patients?
Tina (41:31):
Mm-hmm.
At, at least in the us.
Um, according to the AmericanCancer Society, the most common
cancers in young adults arebreast cancer lymphomas, both
non-Hodgkin and Hodgkin melanomasarcomas.
cancers of the female genitaltract.
So that's cervical and ovariancancers, thyroid cancer,
testicular cancer, colorectalcancer brain and spinal cord
(41:55):
tumors.
So those are the most common,according to the American Cancer
Society here.
doesn't mean they're allincreasing in incidences.
We have talked about a couplethat are, but those are the ones
to look out for
Leah (42:06):
Yeah, and I had read that, those cancers, so colorectal,
breast, prostate, uterine,gastric, small intestine.
Kidney and pancreatic cancersare three times higher in
patients born in 1990 versus1955.
Tina (42:23):
oh, wow.
Three times higher.
That's, that's a lot.
Yeah.
Well, and I just wanna say theother thing, which is, you know,
maybe people are curious, like,how do I know my symptoms, even
a symptom of cancer?
And I'm gonna go through thequick list by the American
Cancer Society for that too.
an unusual lump or swelling,especially in the neck, breast,
belly or testicle.
So get that checked out if youfeel something.
(42:44):
Unexplained.
Tiredness and loss of energy.
And that's usually profound,right?
Easy bruising, abnormalbleeding, pain in one part of
the body that just won't goaway.
Unexplained fever that won't goaway.
Frequent headaches sometimes ifthat headache comes along with
vomiting, obviously not if youhave a cold or a flu, but if it
happens repeatedly, I would puton here night sweats.
(43:06):
So middle of the night you getall hot and sweaty.
that's my own addition.
Sudden eye or visual changes,loss of appetite or unplanned
weight loss.
Don't explain it away.
If you have unplanned weightloss, you do need to get that
checked out.
And then of course, for yourskin, a new mole or other spot
on the skin or one that changes.
Shape, color, or size.
(43:26):
That's all the signs orsymptoms.
Leah (43:28):
And then some considerations for younger
adults when they are diagnosedwith cancer.
talking to your doctor about,fertility preservation is really
important.
treatments can cause sterilityso whether, so whether that's,
you know, like a sperm bank orcryo-preservation, where you're
(43:50):
retrieving eggs and savingthose, you know, those are
really important conversationsto have.
and I think that's frequentlymissed.
and then how do you talk to yourkids after you've been
diagnosed?
Finding someone, findingresources to help you talk with
your children after a cancerdiagnosis.
you can talk with your care teamand see if they have resources
(44:11):
for you, and then talking topeople about, you know, the, the
impact on, on your work.
You know, do you talk to youremployers?
how do you like juggle goingthrough treatment and working,
Tina (44:24):
Most can.
Centers do have, counselors andsocial workers, and I think
they're underutilized.
I think you shouldn't wait for areferral.
You need to advocate for thattoo.
I think it's really helpful.
I think it's something that weas professionals should also
make more use of.
I mean, it came to the pointwhere I felt like everyone
(44:45):
should do an interview with,with the team, whoever the
counselors and social workersare at a given center.
I know they don't, they're notusually staffed to the point
where everyone can go see them,but boy, would that be awesome
because then people don't havea, I don't know, what's the word
I'm looking for?
preconceived notion as to whythey're being referred there.
Right?
Like, you know, I think PE it'shard for us to admit we need
(45:07):
help sometimes and especiallyemotionally.
So I think it'd be great if itwas everybody got screened.
Leah (45:12):
I mean, both cancer centers I've worked at, they had
patients during intake process,meeting with counselors and.
Tina (45:21):
Yes, making it universal removes the taboo.
Leah (45:24):
Yeah, for sure.
I know one of the big concernsthat I have seen on social
media, and read in articles, theconcerns about how do you date
with cancer, with a cancerdiagnosis, and talking about sex
with an after cancer.
these are big topics that, findsomeone to talk about that with,
(45:47):
like, reach out, ask youroncologist, ask your team.
Tina (45:52):
Because there's physical and psychological barriers or
hurdles often after cancertreatment.
Leah (45:58):
Absolutely.
Okay.
So, um, if you are listening andyou are a.
A person who has not beendiagnosed with cancer and does
not have a history of cancer,what are things you can do to
reduce your risk?
We've mentioned some of them sofar.
Trying to improve your sleep,your sleep, environment.
adding diversity of plants toyour diet.
(46:21):
reducing ultra processed food,reducing processed meats, and
reducing alcohol.
These are things that we havetalked about.
Oh, increasing fiber.
That's another one.
So that's part of your plantfoods.
Right?
You're increasing fiber.
You're increasing those, thosecolors I think we've covered all
of these.
Tina (46:37):
I know I was thinking the same thing.
We've actually discussed each ofthese at length.
Leah (46:40):
Yeah.
As I'm going through the list,I'm like, wait, that was this
episode?
That was that episode.
I think.
Did we talk about processedbeets?
I don't know, but I'm sure we'vementioned them before.
Tina (46:49):
yeah.
And I mentioned how sleep is sofoundational.
We actually had two episodes onpeople who have trouble
sleeping.
So if people go back to that,we're very specific on what you
can do, conventionally and with,with natural agents to help with
sleep and,'cause there'sdifferent reasons that we, you
know, wake up in the night orcan't get to sleep in the first
place or whatever.
So we have addressed that.
You're right.
And then we've addressedalcohol.
Yeah.
Leah (47:09):
we've addressed fiber.
We just talked about ultraprocessed foods.
So Yeah, actual items.
We got all, we got all theresources for you.
Tina (47:18):
The ultra processed foods is in the, seed oil episode.
So that's just our last episodebefore this one.
Leah (47:24):
Yeah.
And we're both kind of excitedabout our next episode.
Oh my gosh.
Well, I really enjoy it becausepart of our assignment for
research is watching Netflix andHulu, which is one of my
favorite things to do,
Tina (47:37):
So I wanna ask our listeners to do this too, where
ask people to go ahead and watchsome of these programs so that
the follow up podcast will makesense,
Leah (47:45):
yeah.
So we are talking about, fakesand frauds people who lied about
having cancer.
so we are watching Anatomy ofLies.
Tina (47:54):
which is, I gotta say this, which is about a writer
who wrote for Grey's Anatomy andshe was a faker of cancer.
Leah (48:01):
oh, she was a faker of so many things that, that is.
So,
Tina (48:05):
Diabolical
Leah (48:06):
oh, it's just insane.
It's insane.
Um, and then why don't Iremember the other things we
watched?
Tina (48:12):
Scamanda.
Leah (48:13):
Oh, Scamanda, that's on Hulu.
Tina (48:15):
Yeah.
That one feels a little bit likea Hallmark movie, but you know,
it's still worth watching.
Leah (48:19):
the thing with Scamanda is it's a b, C news and so it's
very much like if you werewatching like Nightline or or
one of those a b bbc Well, they,they like kind of, they, they
repeat a lot of stuff.
Tina (48:29):
It's the one you can kind of be watching while you're
doing something else'cause theyrepeat themselves.
Leah (48:34):
Yeah, I was doing a lot of rewinding it.
It's really interesting.
Um, and then the third one iswe're gonna, to, we're gonna
talk about Bell Gibson.
And so,
Tina (48:44):
Not Mel Gibson, bell Gibson.
Leah (48:46):
Mel Gibson's a completely different episode, but yes, we
are talking about Belle Gibsonand I'm sure many of you have
heard of her.
she was in Australia and she.
Pretended to have cancer andreally created a huge following.
Well, we'll go, we'll go into itmore in, our next episode.
So that's what we're recordingnext.
And so right now we're justdoing the research by watching
(49:09):
these.
Tina (49:10):
We're doing the research.
This is hard work folks.
Leah (49:12):
It's my favorite kind of research.
Okay, so, um, again, thanks forlistening.
And
Tina (49:20):
That's a, that's a loose use of the term, but go ahead.
Leah (49:23):
again, if you like this episode, leave us a comment,
leave us a review, a rating,
Tina (49:29):
Yeah, give us a shout out.
Email us, you know, we'rearound.
Leah (49:32):
share the episode with your, with your friends and
family.
Tina (49:35):
And consider us a resource when you need us.
Leah (49:37):
On that note, I'm Dr.
Leah Sherman,
Tina (49:39):
And I'm Dr.
Tina Kaczor.
Leah (49:40):
and this is the Cancer Pod.
Tina (49:41):
Until next time.
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