March 4, 2025 • 25 mins
Is your workplace more manipulative than supportive? Dr. William Diehl exposes corporate narcissism, from love bombing in interviews to toxic leadership. Learn to set boundaries and reclaim workplace balance.
In this episode:
- Spot the Red Flags: Recognize manipulative behaviors like love bombing and boundary violations.
- Lead with Clarity: How leaders can manage toxic employees while fostering a healthy culture.
- Protect Your Energy: Strategies for setting boundaries and detaching from toxic work dynamics.
Show Guest:
Dr. William Deihl, known as Doc Hypnosis, is Arizona’s top-rated hypnotherapist and wellness expert with over 20 years of experience. Specializing in clinical hypnotherapy, Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP), and Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR), he helps clients overcome challenges, build resilience, and achieve lasting balance. A sought-after speaker, Dr. Deihl has delivered over 180 worldwide presentations on corporate burnout recovery, time management, and goal-setting. As a media contributor, he’s been featured on ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox, and WGN, offering transformative insights on mental health and personal growth that resonate with diverse audiences.
Jill Griffin, host of The Career Refresh, delivers expert guidance on workplace challenges and career transitions. Jill leverages her experience working for the world's top brands like Coca-Cola, Microsoft, Hilton Hotels, and Martha Stewart to address leadership, burnout, team dynamics, and the 4Ps (perfectionism, people-pleasing, procrastination, and personalities).
Visit JillGriffinCoaching.com for more details on:
- Book a 1:1 Career Strategy and Executive Coaching HERE
- Build a Leadership Identity That Earns Trust and Delivers Results.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hey there, welcome back to the Career Refresh.
This is Jill Griffin, your host, and I am here today with a
very exciting guest, dr WilliamDiehl, and I'm going to have him
introduce himself, because hehas a fabulous background.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Well, thank you very much, Jill.
I am Dr William Diehl.
I'm the founder of Doc HypnosisWellness Center here in Phoenix
, arizona, but I'm also a PhD inpsychology and I help
individuals just get to theirbetter selves.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Love it.
And when you and I were talkingabout you know, having this
recording today, some of thethings that you are talking
about were really interesting tome.
I know they're also going to beinteresting to our listeners.
And it is about that corporatenarcissist, that dynamic that
goes on the workplace wheresometimes you feel like you're
being gaslighted.
Sometimes you might be theleader being gaslighted by
(00:55):
someone who's reporting to you,or you could be the employee
who's being gaslit and thenarcissistic behavior on the
leader.
So I want you to kind of giveus a little bit like how did you
get into, with all the thingsthat you do, how did you get
into the corporate side ofthinking about what goes on in
this?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
crazy thing called the workplace.
Well, I actually started off inthe workplace Like most people.
I left, I came out of college,I had my my degrees, but I got
hired by a corporation.
Um, I was working at the samecorporation so they put me in
full time there and I foundmyself all of a sudden going
through the process and livingin the corporate world and not
(01:34):
doing a private practice anymoreand negative things started
happening to me.
Because the corporation gotsold and I was in upper
management.
Because the corporation gotsold and I was in upper
management and I noticed that itbecause I worked with people
with narcissistic relationships.
The corporation itself isalmost like a narcissistic
(01:55):
relationship.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
And that was so juicy Like I w.
I want to go deeper on thatbecause that is so juicy to make
that connection, so pleasestart it.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
How many people have gotten a job interview and they
talk about oh, they do this lovebombing on you.
And that's a thing thatnarcissists do all the time.
Oh, we just love you, you'rethe best.
And then when you get into theposition and you have to fight
for your job, you have to fightto get what you want done.
Or they say, oh, our corporatestructure, we're like a family,
well, and we just go the extramile for our family.
(02:34):
And when you get there, theextra mile is not what they're
doing, it's the extra mile thatthey want you to give free work
for, so they're gaslighting you.
So there's so many littledifferent things are happening
that it has a very narcissisticfeel.
And all of a sudden you're notliving up to expectations, so
(02:56):
you do and work a little bitharder to get that little boost
of appreciation.
And then they're getting youinto the addictive process of
the narcissistic relationship.
And that doesn't happen in allcorporations, but I noticed a
lot of corporations are set upand then you have managers that
(03:20):
embrace that type of way.
They're narcissistic, but maybethe corporation's not, and vice
versa even.
Uh, maybe stuff happens fromthe subordinates and they
gaslight you or they do the samething, so it's fascinating.
So I get people coming in herefrom.
(03:41):
I have a pilot coming in, he um, he's burnt out, but it's
because of the narcissisticrelationship of the airlines on
how they use and how they loseseniority by getting promoted
and they all these differentthings that happen when it okay.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
So let me go back to something that you said that I
think is really interesting toour listeners is that when, when
do you know when you're beinggaslit, versus just asked to do
a little extra work?
And before you answer.
In our careers there are timesin which doing the extra effort
(04:25):
is going to get us promoted, andI don't think there's anything
wrong with that.
So how do you know when it goesfrom hey, listen, I need a
little bit extra from you thisweek, or I need you and your
team to double down and we gotto get this project done and we
got to get this back to theclient.
Right?
When is the normal course?
Right, it's work, not a hobby.
(04:46):
When is the normal course ofbusiness versus when does it
cross the line into hey?
This is sort of a narcissisticrelationship.
This is a boundary breach.
How does someone who'slistening or watching this know
which camp it's in?
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Well, first, hopefully, individuals taking
some time to put some boundariesand have some understanding of
what they want in their personallife and the work life.
If they don't have that, it'shard to recognize, but probably
the easiest thing to recognizeit goes unrewarded.
There was a manufacturingcompany that every week there
(05:27):
was always a crisis.
We need everybody on all handson deck, we need all hands on
deck.
And every week there was nobonuses, there was nothing,
maybe, no, there wasn't evenpizza parties or anything else
as a thank you.
Guys, you did the extra mile oranything else, or the extra
mile for those executives saying, hey, a review comes up and you
(05:50):
get paid.
You know, a merit reviewinstead of getting, or a cost of
living review instead ofgetting something of all the
extra work you do.
So there's signs.
You just have to be open tothem to see it.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Okay, so appreciation and rewards is the biggest
things that I'm hearing you sayDid I get?
Speaker 2 (06:09):
that A hundred percent, yeah, those if you
don't have boundaries alreadyset up, if you're not getting
the appreciation awards for yourextra work, those are red flags
.
You need to take a serious lookand say am I in a balanced
relationship with work?
And it should be a balancedrelationship?
There is an exchange of energyhappening here, but there's an
(06:32):
exchange of energy.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yeah, they're paying you, but there's an exchange of
energy, yeah.
So how do you see itmanifesting differently between
an executive level versus afrontline team Meaning if I'm a
teammate, that doesn't mean I'mspared from narcissistic
tendencies versus the executivelevel.
Are there signals to see there?
Speaker 2 (06:55):
What do you mean from the coming from the team to the
executive?
Is that what you're asking?
Speaker 1 (07:01):
I think most of us who have worked and when we're
saying corporate everyone, yeah,we do mean big corporate.
We can also be talking about a25 person company.
Right, it happens everywhereit's everywhere.
You know it's just an easierword to say corporate, just so
everybody's clear.
But I guess what I mean is mostof us that have been working,
(07:22):
let's say, for at least 10 yearsor more, that have had some
experience, have been hopefullynot in the sandwich at the same
time, because that's enough tomake you nuts, but we've all
reported to the person who hasthe narcissistic tendencies and
then at some point we have theperson who's reporting to us
who's the narcissist.
So are there differences thatyou're seeing about how it
(07:45):
manifests?
Do you, do you notice thedifference in how it manifests
In?
Speaker 2 (07:49):
some ways, you know, I almost look at um, I call it,
overt and covert, a narcissist.
I know that's old terminology,but for me, that's how I learned
it, that's how it's in my head.
So I see, upper management ismore of the over over.
You know, grandiose over.
The reverse is, when it'scoming from a subordinate, it's
(08:10):
more of the covert.
Woe is me.
Oh my God, I'm having thisproblem.
Oh, I'm running late againbecause of this, this and this,
and it's a give and take.
Once again, it's all about youneed to change the corporation
structure to fit my needsbecause everything's so hard on
me my dog, my cat, whatever.
(08:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it'sinteresting.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
I don't know if you've heard of the Empathy
Dilemma, which is a book byMaria Ross.
It's an excellent book and shecalls it empathy hijacking,
which is the idea that we duringCOVID whether we're talking
about students in school oremployees we were like, oh my
God, let's give them room andspace and there's a lot going on
(08:55):
and giving them so much freereign, because we were like, we
just want to make sure we'retaking care of people and then
we're out of that crisis.
There's still other mentalhealth crisis, but we're out of
this.
It's time to come back andfigure out how we're going to
stay a profitable company andhow we're going to make sure
that you keep your job and Ikeep my job because we are a
(09:15):
profitable company and what I'mhearing with a lot of leaders
that I work with throughleadership, strategy and
alignment is a lot of leadersare saying that they're having
employees who are like you knowI got to think about this.
This is a pushing on myboundary that you want me to
stay late tonight Again, is ityour child's school play?
(09:36):
Well then, of course, no, no onewants you to stay late tonight
or work an extra hour or two,but I think there's like there's
this balance that's happeningwhere the rigidity that wasn't
there and we don't want it to goback to that level of rigidity
by any means.
It wasn't really working andpeople are getting sick and out.
But what is that delicatebalance?
(09:58):
And that's what I'm.
I would love your expertise onthat delicate balance.
Because it's the company isthere to provide a service and
make a profit.
The employee is there tofulfill that service, also make
a profit, hopefully have somefun, intellectually stimulate
their brain, have all of that,so that dance.
(10:19):
Just how are you seeing that?
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Well, it's almost a cultural shift in the
corporation, or for theemployees to understand yeah,
you need to be flexible, but theemployer needs to be flexible.
I think, as you said, theybecame very rigid oh, you need
to do this, you need to do that.
If you're staying late, okay,great.
But if you're staying lateevery night and there's no award
(10:45):
system, no appreciation,nothing is showing that you,
then there's a sign saying, okay, they are crossing a boundary.
Yeah yeah, but the difference ishey, you know this week, they,
you know I need you to stay latetonight, Great.
And by the way, when you comein an hour late tomorrow, you
know, or let's do that.
I think there's boundaries onboth sides and both sides need
(11:09):
to understand what thoseboundaries are and then from
there, what those boundaries are, and then from there it's
basically a relationship fromthere, be able to be flexible,
because guess what?
Boundaries are not always thereto to stop a person.
It's just saying, hey, if yougo past this too much, you need
(11:31):
to slow down.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Yeah, no, I think that's a great point, what I
often instruct with words.
So for anyone who's watching orlistening, the word could be
something like okay, Dr Deal, Ican absolutely put in the extra
hour tonight, but can I get yourcommitment that I'm going to
have breakfast at home with mychildren in the morning and I'm
(11:52):
going to come in a little bitlate?
So, finding a way to negotiatebut being, you know, being
within the professionalism thatyou're in, you're like, okay, do
for you, do for me, Like I'mhappy to do this here, but then
I need, they need a break here.
And that's basically what Ithink I hear you saying, and
just giving people scripting.
So what they can say.
(12:13):
So what do you think is some ofthe biggest mistakes that
leaders make when they'rehandling sort of a toxic
situation or a narcissisticsituation?
Someone's got to do it.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
You know, a lot of times leaders sometimes don't
recognize it early enough.
You know the person's takingadvantage, taking advantage,
taking advantage, and then theyget themselves into a pattern
and they don't even recognize it.
There's some people that giveup Bob's always late, judy's
always has a problem, and thenit causes other problems in the
(12:49):
family group or in the teamwhere those individuals or the
not those individuals the otherindividuals see, oh, why is bob
and um them having they?
They they're allowed to be lateand I got reprimanded or talked
to, so it's um recognizing itsoon or making sure they're
(13:12):
keeping their eyes open.
Hence, if they have, you know,corporate guidelines or how they
do it, it's there for a reasonto help you treat everybody
equally.
But also have flexibility.
Of course there's going to bean accident on the freeway once
in a while, of course a child'sgoing to be sick.
Having that flexibility butwhen it becomes a chronic
(13:35):
problem or a chronic woe is me,um where, where most of the um
covert narcissism, manipulationoccurs.
They just need to be open andrecognize that manipulation and
cut in barney fife back in AndyTaylor time, nip it in the bud.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Okay, okay, really, really helpful.
The other question I wanted toask you is, if you're a leader,
what's the best way of givingsomeone a chance to improve
their behavior in this areaversus recognizing when it's
time to let them go or to go toan official performance
(14:16):
improvement plan, and then yougo.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Like anything, communication is king.
So express your boundaries,tell them what you expect, what
you need.
Then from there, if it doesn't,you follow the natural pattern
of employment improvements andthen going out.
You have to make sure yourboundaries are expressed.
A lot of times people don'texpress what they need until the
(14:48):
employment performance plan isput into place, but they need to
do it beforehand.
A lot of times they need to becalled on it.
Even a narcissist, sometimescalled on it, will actually
change their ways.
And then you just need to payattention.
If you notice that they'rechronic like this, you, you just
need to pay a little bit ofattention and make sure they're
(15:09):
not manipulating you a differentway.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
But communication is always key, okay, so if we think
about again it doesn't matterwhether you're the leader or
you're the employee, someone whois in a narcissistic situation
what are some of the in themoment tools that they can
handle right?
What I hear a lot when I workwith people is sometimes there's
(15:34):
like a physical trigger orphysical reaction, like it's
happening again.
I have often hear from clientswhere the use of communication
again, it doesn't matter whatlevel they're at, but the use of
communication first it's theSlack or the Teams, then it's
email, then it's texting me andit starts revving up.
(15:54):
Revving up where the tone andsentiment in what's being
written is like whoa, hey, now,so what?
And then that can be reallytriggering, that someone
speaking to you in such a way.
That's highly inappropriate andsometimes you're caught in the
freeze and you don't even knowwhat to say.
If you were hanging out withyour friends watching like we're
(16:17):
coming up to the Super Bowl.
Right, You're hanging out withyour friends watching the Super
Bowl and someone says somethingto you that's inappropriate,
you're probably in a differentposition to be like yo knock it
off right Because there's notthe power over you of money,
influence, impact, depending onthe leadership structure.
So what, again, are some of thethings that people could
appropriately do in the momentwhen it's happening?
(16:40):
To like get themselves back andthen decide how to respond.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Well, first thing is to start recognizing how they're
doing it and what's setting youoff Give us an example.
Well, if it's, I need you to dothis to really show your
dedication to the company or ateam player.
You need to do this.
Well, if that's something thatyou're feeling you're forced
(17:07):
into, recognize that they'reusing team or pressure to make
you do something more.
Recognizing their tactics isimportant, Then, practicing some
detachment techniques meaningnot to take their immediate
action on what they say whereyou can step away, excuse
(17:27):
yourself to go to the restroomor other things, taking a moment
to take a breath.
There's techniques of justbreathing and taking a deep
breath, in letting out slowerthan you brought it in to help
you come in more centered inyour body, Making sure you can
try to avoid arguments at thatmoment and try to be more
(17:49):
communication.
So you need to really educateyourself on what's happening,
what's going on with how they'retrying to manipulate you, and
then try to come with detachmenttechniques where you can
establish boundaries by saying,hey, I need to spend time with
(18:12):
my kids.
I need your commitment where Ican start having a life and not
time with my kids.
I need to have, you know, Ineed your commitment where I can
have and start having a lifeand not giving up my life.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Okay, Okay.
So just to take a second hereand recap what I'm hearing is
the difference between hey, thisis work and we need your help,
and narcissistic behavior withina workplace is are you getting
rewarded and acknowledged fordoing the work?
Workplace is are you gettingrewarded and acknowledged for
doing the work or is it acontinuous cycle of expectation?
Next, I'm hearing that leadersat all levels should be thinking
(18:44):
about the communication andthat's how we sort of keep from
dragging down the morale ofeveryone and when we decide
whether someone should go into aperformance plan or do they
need to actually be ushered out.
And then, lastly, I've heardyou say a few times, is set
boundaries and also havedetachment techniques.
Are there any other tools thatyou would give our listeners and
(19:07):
watchers to sort of reclaimthat mental wellness that they
can walk away from thisconversation and watching this
or listening to this today andbeing like, oh, you know what
I'm going to do that the nexttime I'm in that situation.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
You know a couple of things.
One before you get into thatsituation again, take some time
and start building your ownself-esteem back up.
You know you're pulled down.
You're pulled down and realizethat, yeah, you're in a position
.
They might have financial, youknow, like a thumb on you that
(19:42):
way.
But there's other things thatyou can do to say, ok, I need to
still be respected as anemployee or part of the team.
So first, build up yourself-esteem.
Take some time for yourself andlearn detachment techniques.
Breathing is one.
If you're triggered a lot,there is actually a simple
(20:04):
technique of covering your lefteye and looking upwards.
That can help take yourself outof anxiety.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Why does that work?
Tell us, why that works.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
You know it's going into the neurology of the brain,
but it actually helps detachyou from the mechanism that
causes anxiety and basicallyyou're changing your physical,
normal pattern.
That you do because what domost people do?
(20:34):
They got to get a tenseposition and all of a sudden, if
you walk in the restroom andyou do this and look up and take
a breath, you can actuallystart relaxing.
You learning relaxationtechniques, breathing techniques
, listening to certain music,get yourself back to center and
(20:56):
then approach them calm, cool,collective.
You do not want to come acrossaggressive.
It's that old saying whoeverloses their temper first loses
the game.
So you come across calm, cool,collective and put together.
That's the best way to approachand get yourself out of it,
(21:19):
because if you're coming acrossin a hurt situation or an angry
situation, they're not going tohear you, they're going to take
offense to it.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Got it.
Got it Okay, really good.
So tell us how people can findyou, how they can work with you.
Obviously, I'll put all yourinformation in the show notes,
but let us know how we can findand work with you.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Six practitioners here, all hypnotists, but we
specialize in different areas.
We have I team up with aclinical sound therapist.
(22:03):
That's a hypnotist that helpswith anxiety and stuff.
So DocHypnosis isDocHypnosiscom.
D-o-c-hypnosiscom is a greatway to find and you can start
seeing my specialist up there aswell.
As you can just give a phonecall.
I have a straight line to abusiness line that I respond to
every one of my phone calls andor I have one of my team give
(22:27):
you a call.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Can this work be done virtually, or is it only in
your office?
Speaker 2 (22:33):
No, the person just before you I was talking to was
in England, so I do it all overthe world wherever it's needed,
wonderful.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
And how do you find that the hypnosis and the NLP,
which is neurolinguisticprogramming for anyone, how do
you find that those practiceshelp change some of the person
who is in the experience of thisnarcissistic behavior?
How do you find that it helpsthem change their reality and
their situation?
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Well, I use several different things like PCW, nlp
and hypnotherapy, and I likeabout the combination of those
three is it actually helps withspeed and getting through the
problem quickly, where if you'regoing to a cognitive therapist
you might have to see them maybe30 times.
Well, okay, that's 30 weeks,that's a half a year.
(23:25):
Most people don't want to be inthe crap that they're in for
the next 30 weeks or half a year.
They want to take care of it.
So by combining thosetechniques we can get stuff down
within four, maybe six sessions.
So we're giving them toolsright away, we're giving them
(23:47):
change in their mind right away,we're interrupting patterns
that they're creating theanxiety with and getting them on
a better path for self-esteemso they can approach the problem
in a more centered approach.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Fascinating.
It's fascinating, really,really good.
Again, everyone.
I'm going to put hisinformation in the show notes.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
I appreciate you and sharingthis level.
I mean, I don't know thatpeople are aware that this is
another tool that they can learnin order to manage burnout,
workplace challenges and reallyjust up-level themselves and
(24:24):
their wellness first, beforethey can, you know, or perform
in their careers in a better way.
So I appreciate that.
As always, everyone who'slistening or watching this, you
can email me at hello atjillgriffincoachingcom.
I want to hear from you, I wantto know what you think and if
you have questions, we willbring Dr Diehl back and we will
get him back on and answer morequestions.
So I would love to have you.
(24:45):
Until next time, everyone,please embrace possibility, be
intentional and be kind.
We'll see you soon.
Hey there, welcome back to the Career Refresh.
This is Jill Griffin, your host, and I am here today with a
very exciting guest, dr WilliamDiehl, and I'm going to have him
introduce himself, because hehas a fabulous background.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Well, thank you very much, Jill.
I am Dr William Diehl.
I'm the founder of Doc HypnosisWellness Center here in Phoenix
, arizona, but I'm also a PhD inpsychology and I help
individuals just get to theirbetter selves.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Love it.
And when you and I were talkingabout you know, having this
recording today, some of thethings that you are talking
about were really interesting tome.
I know they're also going to beinteresting to our listeners.
And it is about that corporatenarcissist, that dynamic that
goes on the workplace wheresometimes you feel like you're
being gaslighted.
Sometimes you might be theleader being gaslighted by
(00:55):
someone who's reporting to you,or you could be the employee
who's being gaslit and thenarcissistic behavior on the
leader.
So I want you to kind of giveus a little bit like how did you
get into, with all the thingsthat you do, how did you get
into the corporate side ofthinking about what goes on in
this?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
crazy thing called the workplace.
Well, I actually started off inthe workplace Like most people.
I left, I came out of college,I had my my degrees, but I got
hired by a corporation.
Um, I was working at the samecorporation so they put me in
full time there and I foundmyself all of a sudden going
through the process and livingin the corporate world and not
(01:34):
doing a private practice anymoreand negative things started
happening to me.
Because the corporation gotsold and I was in upper
management.
Because the corporation gotsold and I was in upper
management and I noticed that itbecause I worked with people
with narcissistic relationships.
The corporation itself isalmost like a narcissistic
(01:55):
relationship.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
And that was so juicy Like I w.
I want to go deeper on thatbecause that is so juicy to make
that connection, so pleasestart it.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
How many people have gotten a job interview and they
talk about oh, they do this lovebombing on you.
And that's a thing thatnarcissists do all the time.
Oh, we just love you, you'rethe best.
And then when you get into theposition and you have to fight
for your job, you have to fightto get what you want done.
Or they say, oh, our corporatestructure, we're like a family,
well, and we just go the extramile for our family.
(02:34):
And when you get there, theextra mile is not what they're
doing, it's the extra mile thatthey want you to give free work
for, so they're gaslighting you.
So there's so many littledifferent things are happening
that it has a very narcissisticfeel.
And all of a sudden you're notliving up to expectations, so
(02:56):
you do and work a little bitharder to get that little boost
of appreciation.
And then they're getting youinto the addictive process of
the narcissistic relationship.
And that doesn't happen in allcorporations, but I noticed a
lot of corporations are set upand then you have managers that
(03:20):
embrace that type of way.
They're narcissistic, but maybethe corporation's not, and vice
versa even.
Uh, maybe stuff happens fromthe subordinates and they
gaslight you or they do the samething, so it's fascinating.
So I get people coming in herefrom.
(03:41):
I have a pilot coming in, he um, he's burnt out, but it's
because of the narcissisticrelationship of the airlines on
how they use and how they loseseniority by getting promoted
and they all these differentthings that happen when it okay.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
So let me go back to something that you said that I
think is really interesting toour listeners is that when, when
do you know when you're beinggaslit, versus just asked to do
a little extra work?
And before you answer.
In our careers there are timesin which doing the extra effort
(04:25):
is going to get us promoted, andI don't think there's anything
wrong with that.
So how do you know when it goesfrom hey, listen, I need a
little bit extra from you thisweek, or I need you and your
team to double down and we gotto get this project done and we
got to get this back to theclient.
Right?
When is the normal course?
Right, it's work, not a hobby.
(04:46):
When is the normal course ofbusiness versus when does it
cross the line into hey?
This is sort of a narcissisticrelationship.
This is a boundary breach.
How does someone who'slistening or watching this know
which camp it's in?
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Well, first, hopefully, individuals taking
some time to put some boundariesand have some understanding of
what they want in their personallife and the work life.
If they don't have that, it'shard to recognize, but probably
the easiest thing to recognizeit goes unrewarded.
There was a manufacturingcompany that every week there
(05:27):
was always a crisis.
We need everybody on all handson deck, we need all hands on
deck.
And every week there was nobonuses, there was nothing,
maybe, no, there wasn't evenpizza parties or anything else
as a thank you.
Guys, you did the extra mile oranything else, or the extra
mile for those executives saying, hey, a review comes up and you
(05:50):
get paid.
You know, a merit reviewinstead of getting, or a cost of
living review instead ofgetting something of all the
extra work you do.
So there's signs.
You just have to be open tothem to see it.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Okay, so appreciation and rewards is the biggest
things that I'm hearing you sayDid I get?
Speaker 2 (06:09):
that A hundred percent, yeah, those if you
don't have boundaries alreadyset up, if you're not getting
the appreciation awards for yourextra work, those are red flags
.
You need to take a serious lookand say am I in a balanced
relationship with work?
And it should be a balancedrelationship?
There is an exchange of energyhappening here, but there's an
(06:32):
exchange of energy.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yeah, they're paying you, but there's an exchange of
energy, yeah.
So how do you see itmanifesting differently between
an executive level versus afrontline team Meaning if I'm a
teammate, that doesn't mean I'mspared from narcissistic
tendencies versus the executivelevel.
Are there signals to see there?
Speaker 2 (06:55):
What do you mean from the coming from the team to the
executive?
Is that what you're asking?
Speaker 1 (07:01):
I think most of us who have worked and when we're
saying corporate everyone, yeah,we do mean big corporate.
We can also be talking about a25 person company.
Right, it happens everywhereit's everywhere.
You know it's just an easierword to say corporate, just so
everybody's clear.
But I guess what I mean is mostof us that have been working,
(07:22):
let's say, for at least 10 yearsor more, that have had some
experience, have been hopefullynot in the sandwich at the same
time, because that's enough tomake you nuts, but we've all
reported to the person who hasthe narcissistic tendencies and
then at some point we have theperson who's reporting to us
who's the narcissist.
So are there differences thatyou're seeing about how it
(07:45):
manifests?
Do you, do you notice thedifference in how it manifests
In?
Speaker 2 (07:49):
some ways, you know, I almost look at um, I call it,
overt and covert, a narcissist.
I know that's old terminology,but for me, that's how I learned
it, that's how it's in my head.
So I see, upper management ismore of the over over.
You know, grandiose over.
The reverse is, when it'scoming from a subordinate, it's
(08:10):
more of the covert.
Woe is me.
Oh my God, I'm having thisproblem.
Oh, I'm running late againbecause of this, this and this,
and it's a give and take.
Once again, it's all about youneed to change the corporation
structure to fit my needsbecause everything's so hard on
me my dog, my cat, whatever.
(08:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it'sinteresting.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
I don't know if you've heard of the Empathy
Dilemma, which is a book byMaria Ross.
It's an excellent book and shecalls it empathy hijacking,
which is the idea that we duringCOVID whether we're talking
about students in school oremployees we were like, oh my
God, let's give them room andspace and there's a lot going on
(08:55):
and giving them so much freereign, because we were like, we
just want to make sure we'retaking care of people and then
we're out of that crisis.
There's still other mentalhealth crisis, but we're out of
this.
It's time to come back andfigure out how we're going to
stay a profitable company andhow we're going to make sure
that you keep your job and Ikeep my job because we are a
(09:15):
profitable company and what I'mhearing with a lot of leaders
that I work with throughleadership, strategy and
alignment is a lot of leadersare saying that they're having
employees who are like you knowI got to think about this.
This is a pushing on myboundary that you want me to
stay late tonight Again, is ityour child's school play?
(09:36):
Well then, of course, no, no onewants you to stay late tonight
or work an extra hour or two,but I think there's like there's
this balance that's happeningwhere the rigidity that wasn't
there and we don't want it to goback to that level of rigidity
by any means.
It wasn't really working andpeople are getting sick and out.
But what is that delicatebalance?
(09:58):
And that's what I'm.
I would love your expertise onthat delicate balance.
Because it's the company isthere to provide a service and
make a profit.
The employee is there tofulfill that service, also make
a profit, hopefully have somefun, intellectually stimulate
their brain, have all of that,so that dance.
(10:19):
Just how are you seeing that?
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Well, it's almost a cultural shift in the
corporation, or for theemployees to understand yeah,
you need to be flexible, but theemployer needs to be flexible.
I think, as you said, theybecame very rigid oh, you need
to do this, you need to do that.
If you're staying late, okay,great.
But if you're staying lateevery night and there's no award
(10:45):
system, no appreciation,nothing is showing that you,
then there's a sign saying, okay, they are crossing a boundary.
Yeah yeah, but the difference ishey, you know this week, they,
you know I need you to stay latetonight, Great.
And by the way, when you comein an hour late tomorrow, you
know, or let's do that.
I think there's boundaries onboth sides and both sides need
(11:09):
to understand what thoseboundaries are and then from
there, what those boundaries are, and then from there it's
basically a relationship fromthere, be able to be flexible,
because guess what?
Boundaries are not always thereto to stop a person.
It's just saying, hey, if yougo past this too much, you need
(11:31):
to slow down.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Yeah, no, I think that's a great point, what I
often instruct with words.
So for anyone who's watching orlistening, the word could be
something like okay, Dr Deal, Ican absolutely put in the extra
hour tonight, but can I get yourcommitment that I'm going to
have breakfast at home with mychildren in the morning and I'm
(11:52):
going to come in a little bitlate?
So, finding a way to negotiatebut being, you know, being
within the professionalism thatyou're in, you're like, okay, do
for you, do for me, Like I'mhappy to do this here, but then
I need, they need a break here.
And that's basically what Ithink I hear you saying, and
just giving people scripting.
So what they can say.
(12:13):
So what do you think is some ofthe biggest mistakes that
leaders make when they'rehandling sort of a toxic
situation or a narcissisticsituation?
Someone's got to do it.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
You know, a lot of times leaders sometimes don't
recognize it early enough.
You know the person's takingadvantage, taking advantage,
taking advantage, and then theyget themselves into a pattern
and they don't even recognize it.
There's some people that giveup Bob's always late, judy's
always has a problem, and thenit causes other problems in the
(12:49):
family group or in the teamwhere those individuals or the
not those individuals the otherindividuals see, oh, why is bob
and um them having they?
They they're allowed to be lateand I got reprimanded or talked
to, so it's um recognizing itsoon or making sure they're
(13:12):
keeping their eyes open.
Hence, if they have, you know,corporate guidelines or how they
do it, it's there for a reasonto help you treat everybody
equally.
But also have flexibility.
Of course there's going to bean accident on the freeway once
in a while, of course a child'sgoing to be sick.
Having that flexibility butwhen it becomes a chronic
(13:35):
problem or a chronic woe is me,um where, where most of the um
covert narcissism, manipulationoccurs.
They just need to be open andrecognize that manipulation and
cut in barney fife back in AndyTaylor time, nip it in the bud.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Okay, okay, really, really helpful.
The other question I wanted toask you is, if you're a leader,
what's the best way of givingsomeone a chance to improve
their behavior in this areaversus recognizing when it's
time to let them go or to go toan official performance
(14:16):
improvement plan, and then yougo.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Like anything, communication is king.
So express your boundaries,tell them what you expect, what
you need.
Then from there, if it doesn't,you follow the natural pattern
of employment improvements andthen going out.
You have to make sure yourboundaries are expressed.
A lot of times people don'texpress what they need until the
(14:48):
employment performance plan isput into place, but they need to
do it beforehand.
A lot of times they need to becalled on it.
Even a narcissist, sometimescalled on it, will actually
change their ways.
And then you just need to payattention.
If you notice that they'rechronic like this, you, you just
need to pay a little bit ofattention and make sure they're
(15:09):
not manipulating you a differentway.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
But communication is always key, okay, so if we think
about again it doesn't matterwhether you're the leader or
you're the employee, someone whois in a narcissistic situation
what are some of the in themoment tools that they can
handle right?
What I hear a lot when I workwith people is sometimes there's
(15:34):
like a physical trigger orphysical reaction, like it's
happening again.
I have often hear from clientswhere the use of communication
again, it doesn't matter whatlevel they're at, but the use of
communication first it's theSlack or the Teams, then it's
email, then it's texting me andit starts revving up.
(15:54):
Revving up where the tone andsentiment in what's being
written is like whoa, hey, now,so what?
And then that can be reallytriggering, that someone
speaking to you in such a way.
That's highly inappropriate andsometimes you're caught in the
freeze and you don't even knowwhat to say.
If you were hanging out withyour friends watching like we're
(16:17):
coming up to the Super Bowl.
Right, You're hanging out withyour friends watching the Super
Bowl and someone says somethingto you that's inappropriate,
you're probably in a differentposition to be like yo knock it
off right Because there's notthe power over you of money,
influence, impact, depending onthe leadership structure.
So what, again, are some of thethings that people could
appropriately do in the momentwhen it's happening?
(16:40):
To like get themselves back andthen decide how to respond.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Well, first thing is to start recognizing how they're
doing it and what's setting youoff Give us an example.
Well, if it's, I need you to dothis to really show your
dedication to the company or ateam player.
You need to do this.
Well, if that's something thatyou're feeling you're forced
(17:07):
into, recognize that they'reusing team or pressure to make
you do something more.
Recognizing their tactics isimportant, Then, practicing some
detachment techniques meaningnot to take their immediate
action on what they say whereyou can step away, excuse
(17:27):
yourself to go to the restroomor other things, taking a moment
to take a breath.
There's techniques of justbreathing and taking a deep
breath, in letting out slowerthan you brought it in to help
you come in more centered inyour body, Making sure you can
try to avoid arguments at thatmoment and try to be more
(17:49):
communication.
So you need to really educateyourself on what's happening,
what's going on with how they'retrying to manipulate you, and
then try to come with detachmenttechniques where you can
establish boundaries by saying,hey, I need to spend time with
(18:12):
my kids.
I need your commitment where Ican start having a life and not
time with my kids.
I need to have, you know, Ineed your commitment where I can
have and start having a lifeand not giving up my life.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Okay, Okay.
So just to take a second hereand recap what I'm hearing is
the difference between hey, thisis work and we need your help,
and narcissistic behavior withina workplace is are you getting
rewarded and acknowledged fordoing the work?
Workplace is are you gettingrewarded and acknowledged for
doing the work or is it acontinuous cycle of expectation?
Next, I'm hearing that leadersat all levels should be thinking
(18:44):
about the communication andthat's how we sort of keep from
dragging down the morale ofeveryone and when we decide
whether someone should go into aperformance plan or do they
need to actually be ushered out.
And then, lastly, I've heardyou say a few times, is set
boundaries and also havedetachment techniques.
Are there any other tools thatyou would give our listeners and
(19:07):
watchers to sort of reclaimthat mental wellness that they
can walk away from thisconversation and watching this
or listening to this today andbeing like, oh, you know what
I'm going to do that the nexttime I'm in that situation.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
You know a couple of things.
One before you get into thatsituation again, take some time
and start building your ownself-esteem back up.
You know you're pulled down.
You're pulled down and realizethat, yeah, you're in a position
.
They might have financial, youknow, like a thumb on you that
(19:42):
way.
But there's other things thatyou can do to say, ok, I need to
still be respected as anemployee or part of the team.
So first, build up yourself-esteem.
Take some time for yourself andlearn detachment techniques.
Breathing is one.
If you're triggered a lot,there is actually a simple
(20:04):
technique of covering your lefteye and looking upwards.
That can help take yourself outof anxiety.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Why does that work?
Tell us, why that works.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
You know it's going into the neurology of the brain,
but it actually helps detachyou from the mechanism that
causes anxiety and basicallyyou're changing your physical,
normal pattern.
That you do because what domost people do?
(20:34):
They got to get a tenseposition and all of a sudden, if
you walk in the restroom andyou do this and look up and take
a breath, you can actuallystart relaxing.
You learning relaxationtechniques, breathing techniques
, listening to certain music,get yourself back to center and
(20:56):
then approach them calm, cool,collective.
You do not want to come acrossaggressive.
It's that old saying whoeverloses their temper first loses
the game.
So you come across calm, cool,collective and put together.
That's the best way to approachand get yourself out of it,
(21:19):
because if you're coming acrossin a hurt situation or an angry
situation, they're not going tohear you, they're going to take
offense to it.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Got it.
Got it Okay, really good.
So tell us how people can findyou, how they can work with you.
Obviously, I'll put all yourinformation in the show notes,
but let us know how we can findand work with you.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Six practitioners here, all hypnotists, but we
specialize in different areas.
We have I team up with aclinical sound therapist.
(22:03):
That's a hypnotist that helpswith anxiety and stuff.
So DocHypnosis isDocHypnosiscom.
D-o-c-hypnosiscom is a greatway to find and you can start
seeing my specialist up there aswell.
As you can just give a phonecall.
I have a straight line to abusiness line that I respond to
every one of my phone calls andor I have one of my team give
(22:27):
you a call.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Can this work be done virtually, or is it only in
your office?
Speaker 2 (22:33):
No, the person just before you I was talking to was
in England, so I do it all overthe world wherever it's needed,
wonderful.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
And how do you find that the hypnosis and the NLP,
which is neurolinguisticprogramming for anyone, how do
you find that those practiceshelp change some of the person
who is in the experience of thisnarcissistic behavior?
How do you find that it helpsthem change their reality and
their situation?
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Well, I use several different things like PCW, nlp
and hypnotherapy, and I likeabout the combination of those
three is it actually helps withspeed and getting through the
problem quickly, where if you'regoing to a cognitive therapist
you might have to see them maybe30 times.
Well, okay, that's 30 weeks,that's a half a year.
(23:25):
Most people don't want to be inthe crap that they're in for
the next 30 weeks or half a year.
They want to take care of it.
So by combining thosetechniques we can get stuff down
within four, maybe six sessions.
So we're giving them toolsright away, we're giving them
(23:47):
change in their mind right away,we're interrupting patterns
that they're creating theanxiety with and getting them on
a better path for self-esteemso they can approach the problem
in a more centered approach.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Fascinating.
It's fascinating, really,really good.
Again, everyone.
I'm going to put hisinformation in the show notes.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
I appreciate you and sharingthis level.
I mean, I don't know thatpeople are aware that this is
another tool that they can learnin order to manage burnout,
workplace challenges and reallyjust up-level themselves and
(24:24):
their wellness first, beforethey can, you know, or perform
in their careers in a better way.
So I appreciate that.
As always, everyone who'slistening or watching this, you
can email me at hello atjillgriffincoachingcom.
I want to hear from you, I wantto know what you think and if
you have questions, we willbring Dr Diehl back and we will
get him back on and answer morequestions.
So I would love to have you.
(24:45):
Until next time, everyone,please embrace possibility, be
intentional and be kind.
We'll see you soon.
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