Loneliness is more than a feeling, it’s a public health crisis. In this episode, Jill talks with Lucy Rose about what leaders need to know, why connection drives performance, and how to spot and solve loneliness in today’s workplace.
- The hidden cost of loneliness
- Leadership’s role in fostering connection
- Small actions that build belonging
Show Guest
Lucy Rose is a foremost regulatory expert and Founder and President of The Cost of Loneliness Project. The Cost of Loneliness Project™ is a mission-driven organization advancing programs designed to increase awareness and understanding of chronic loneliness and create action that improves connection, mitigating this public health issue. Leaders in the workplace are a key component to decreasing chronic loneliness and can foster belonging and connection amongst their teams.
Show Notes:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey everyone, this is Jill Griffin, the host of the
Career Refresh, and today I havea guest that I have wanted to
interview for a while.
I've been a fan of her work andwe're going to talk about the
bulk of her current work today.
Lucy is the regulatory expertand the founder and president of
the Cost of Loneliness Project.
The Cost of Loneliness Projectis a mission-driven organization
(00:22):
advancing programs designed toincrease awareness and the
understanding of chronicloneliness and how we can create
action that improves connection, mitigate public health issues
and, ultimately, leaders in theworkplace need to understand,
not only for themselves but fortheir clients, the people they
serve, their teams what is theimpact of chronic loneliness.
(00:45):
And with that I welcome Lucy,rose and thank you, jill, thanks
for having me, thanks for beinghere.
So let's, just before we jumpinto the juicy part around
loneliness and the really.
Working for the FDA, you'vealso worked for the top
(01:06):
consulting organizations.
You started it looks like wayback and doing sales rep and
farmer.
You're also a physician'sassistant.
Tell us how you got throughthat and where you are today,
cause I always find that sointeresting and people
understanding that career pathsare not always linear and that
they take lots of differentshapes and sizes and create what
we are today.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
You got that right.
Mine has certainly not beenlinear, that's for sure.
I'll do it real fast, but firstI just have to give notice of
the fact you said we're allleaders.
I could not agree more.
And for everybody listening aswe talk about loneliness and
about career paths and that kindof stuff, we all are and we all
have opportunities every day todemonstrate that.
So thank you.
(01:52):
I started as a sales rep.
I have an MBA, I'm a PA as wellAll kinds of weird things in
terms of titles but bottom lineis I have been involved in
healthcare my whole career, beit as a sales rep or a sales
manager.
I was able to run the group atFDA that regulates all the
advertising promotion ofprescription drugs in the US.
I went out and started, and Iworked at Bristol Myers Squibb
as well before, and was atDeloitte all kinds of things in
between.
I started my own business.
(02:13):
I'm a regulatory expert forpharma, as you said, and had the
privilege of working for about400 clients over that time.
During the time I did that,though, I traveled all the time,
jill all the time, and as Itraveled and I mean really all
the time like I don't know, 8million United Miles and a lot
of stuff.
As you think about travel,though for me, six days a week
(02:35):
for over 20 years, it takes itstoll.
Sitting in the hotel room everynight all the time I gained 40
pounds.
I realized I was not making thefriends that I need as a person
who's one of connection, and itwas taking its toll on me and I
began to think again aboutpublic health and the 40,000
foot level.
If it was impacting me that way, all that travel in the
(02:58):
downtime, I wondered how itmight be impacting others.
So I started doing research,about nine years ago I guess,
now to the impact of lonelinessand realizing the power of the
mind-body connection and whatthat means, and I decided at
that point that, in addition tothe work that I was able to do
as a regulatory expert forpublic health, I really wanted
(03:19):
to delve into this and see if Icouldn't uncover a lot of this,
make it more obvious toeverybody about the connections
and make an impact in our worldat every level, from the
individual to community tosociety, in terms of
understanding the importance ofthis and how we must deal with
it.
I really believe it is thelargest epidemic right now that
(03:41):
we have, we have yeah, frankly,it's one we actually can prevent
.
Do something about.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
So let's get a little bit clear for people listening
what we're talking about.
Right, most people are going toassociate loneliness with
social isolation, but you'vedefined it as something deeper.
Do you want to give us you know?
So we have some of thevocabulary that we're all
working off of around loneliness.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
I'd love to do that and social isolationism to say
that real fast, five timesquickly.
Social isolationism andloneliness certainly can go hand
in hand.
They certainly do, and mostrecent research has shown that
social isolationism also ishighly impactful in a negative
way on people, in addition toloneliness, but as I am defining
(04:25):
loneliness today, I'm talkingabout chronic loneliness, that
loneliness that you feel whenyou're you know you're missing
something in terms of yourconnections, that you need more
of physical impacts that thatmakes on you, and I think the
easiest way to think about thisis think about fright and flight
.
When you see something you'reafraid of, your body, as you
(04:45):
know, your heart starts beatingfaster and you start sweating
and your breathing is faster inorder to handle something that
you know is dangerous to you.
It's a cortisol releaseprimarily, but other epinephrine
is also released in your body.
That cortisol release is greatif you're in real danger,
because you can come faster, andcome faster when it is present
all the time.
(05:05):
Though, when that chronic stressfrom chronic loneliness is
there all the time, bathingyourselves in that, it also
causes inflammation,inflammation, and all of those
things coming together over timecan cause physical changes in
your body, including a 26%increase in mortality.
Oh wow, body, yeah, including a26% increase in mortality.
(05:27):
Oh wow, stroke andcardiovascular disease major
increase in cardiovasculardisease about a 32% increase in
stroke and a 27% increase incardiovascular disease.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
So, lucy, I want to make that clear for listeners to
really understand and breakingthat down and for any of my
longtime listeners.
You know that I talk aboutstress and I talk about fight or
flight and what actuallyhappens.
We have an expert here.
But we've talked about how whenyou're under stress, right,
there's the stressor, theexternal thing that's happening,
and the stress your body isgoing to deal with.
(06:00):
The stressor oh, you know,there's a presentation coming up
, there's a delayed flight,there's an argument with a
friend or family member, thatstress you're going to deal with
that.
Your mind and your brain isgoing to know how to communicate
.
But I want Lucy to take usthrough what happens actually to
the body and the secondarysystem shutting down, because I
think when we really understandthat, we start to think twice
(06:21):
about how important is this andhow do I want to approach and be
intentional, moving forward.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yeah, and I think you're just.
You're really onto somethingand all of us have felt it.
You actually named three thingsthere, like like we got a big
speech coming up and for youraudience.
That happens to them all thetime and it is something that
most people are actually afraidof.
And so when you do think aboutyour body and how it feels in
that moment, you know your yourheartbeats faster.
(06:47):
You can feel it, sometimes inyour chest, you're breathing
quicker.
You sometimes get sweaty palms.
You know your knees get weak.
All of that is a naturalreaction to stress.
It's a good thing Most of thetime because it's giving our
body a warning oh my gosh,something's wrong and we're
going to help you take care ofit, or I'm going to help you
take care of it, because that'swhat it does.
That's a great thing.
(07:08):
Until it lasts in a chronic way, and as you last in a chronic
way through that and you havemore cortisol, what we and more
of the physical reactions tothis stress over a long time, a
chronic loneliness, which canhappen again when you're not
getting, you know, if you don'thave a single best friend, no
(07:29):
one that you share with, no onethat you feel really safe around
.
Sometimes it has to do withpurpose.
There are a lot of things therethat can cause you to feel like
you don't have what you need.
When that happens chronically,okay, then all of those things
come together and we do a coupleof things.
Sometimes we try to soothe thatbehavior and it can lead to
(07:50):
things like alcoholism, otherkinds of addiction.
Okay, sometimes that soothingis overeating and it can lead to
obesity, which takes us to someof our issues with type 2
diabetes epidemic now, as youknow, and other issues with
overweight.
But the fact is, it also causesinflammation and when we look
(08:13):
at that inflammation, some ofthe data is telling us now that
it might increase the chances ofdementia up to 50%.
Now, again, all these numbersthat I'm sharing today, if you
read different sources, if youread Cigna, if you read Harvard
Business Review any of these,they're going to gallop holes.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Give you a variation on the data.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
But it's that mind-body connection over time
that is scary for all of us.
Again, you know, when you lookat cardiovascular disease being
increased by 29%, stroke by 32%,more cancer due to this.
And we can relate that todollars at work because loss of
productivity I actually wrote itdown so I wouldn't get it wrong
(08:52):
the loss of productivity inextra medicine spending let's go
there for Medicare $6.7 billiona year.
The loss of productivity inworkplace is monstrous for
apathyism, for healthcare costs,all those things.
A lot happens.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
What I'm hearing you say as takeaways for our
listeners is one as anindividual, you should care
because while the stress at sometimes will help you perform,
it's also going to suppress allyour secondary systems.
What do we mean by that?
Your digestive system, yourreproductive system right, you
have a stomach ache, right?
That's what we're talking about.
Those other systems tend tostart to slow down because we're
(09:33):
always in the stress which ourbody is saying perform, perform,
perform or fight, right, that'sthe fight or flight.
So thinking about your sleepdisrupted all of that.
So now, when you're not in thatstressor experience and you're
out of it, well, if we don'trestart our systems and that's
what you're talking about in themind-body connection our bodies
can handle the stress as longas we're balancing the mind-body
(09:55):
part of it.
So when we layer on that andunderstanding loneliness I mean
you and I were talking justbefore the US Surgeon General
Murthy, right, that quote thatshe gave around chronic
loneliness being as harmful assmoking 15 cigarettes a day.
I mean that's staggering.
I know you've seen this in yourwork firsthand.
(10:16):
If we bring it back into theworkplace, should leaders be
solving for this lonelinessissue or is it something that's
in the private of your.
Oh, let's let.
Oh, you've just opened like athousand doors.
I know I'm asking you a lot ofquestions, but my brain's always
making connections.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
You're on and connections are the right word.
First, I want to make sure thatI give that quote to the right
place.
The person who did the work onthe 15 cigarettes a day was
Julianne Holt Lunsford, who isone of the leading researchers
in loneliness and connectionsout of Salt Lake City and she's
an academician did the work andshe showed that all-cause
mortality is increased by up to26%.
(10:59):
Guys no joke from loneliness,folks who are chronically lonely
.
And Dr Murdy was, you know, inhis a lot of work and all of his
kind of presentations and workhe quotes that a lot that source
.
So you see it a lot.
But it was Julianne whoactually did the research to
discover that.
Now to answer your question,should we be concerned as
(11:21):
business leaders or whateverworld you're in, nonprofit,
whatever that may be?
Yes, we should, because let megive you some things that
actually happen when people arechronically lonely in the
workplace.
Things like absenteeismincreases the quality of the
work that they produce decrease.
Their ability to collaborate asteammates decreases.
(11:42):
Their creativity is somewhatstifled because they lose their
energy and excitement aroundthings.
Your health costs go up.
We're doing that in terms of thecosts that we do and we have to
backfill, we end up losing morepeople because when they're
lonely and when they'reuncomfortable and they're not
performing as well as they mightwant to, or they don't feel
(12:04):
seen, which is what a lot ofthis is.
You know a lot of people.
If you don't feel seen or don'tfeel included or a part of then
, that drives loneliness.
So it is our responsibility Ithink, from both a caring human,
empath type standpoint, butalso from a purely business
dollar standpoint truth be toldthat as leaders, we pay
(12:27):
attention to this and that wecreate a culture, in essence, of
attention to this, a culture ofconnection, a culture of
belonging and as part of what wedo as leaders, individually and
as corporate.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
So people who are listening to this are probably
saying, like, this sounds like agreat idea.
I love this idea, but, jill, doyou know what's on my plate
right now?
Lucy, how am I going to do this?
I have to.
You know, I have thepresentation, I have numbers to
deliver, I have all these likehow can I possibly take this on
too?
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Okay, it's a lot easier than you think.
Okay, okay, and the numbers todeliver depend on this to a
great extent, and I think thatis a really important thing.
This is not an either or.
It's a both and Okay.
And for us to be able to be aseffective in our results as we
wanna be, then we have to payattention to each person and
(13:21):
their contributions, as well asthe collective and how we work
as teams.
So as we do that, what can wedo?
First thing, I think, as leadermanagers, I think we can
normalize a conversation aroundwhat it means to be connected
and what it means to be a partof a team, so we can talk about
also well-being and what thatmeans, not just physically have
(13:42):
you gone to the gym this week?
But asking open-ended questionslike how are you feeling as
part of the team?
Do you feel like things aregoing well?
Is there anything we can dothere?
I think we can pay moreattention with intentionality
about celebrating contributions,about paying attention to the
quiet person at the meeting.
Why are they being quiet?
(14:02):
None of this takes any time ormoney.
It's just paying attention in ameeting, right?
Why is that person notcontributing?
Speaker 1 (14:09):
I love that you say that, because I feel like going
back to everybody is a leader.
There's maybe the person at thetop of the hierarchy, but as
humans, if you're on that Zoomcall or you're in that meeting
and there's either someone whoeither isn't participating
getting curious as to why ordoes, every time they try to
talk, someone accidentally stepson them and steps over them and
(14:31):
they're being interrupted, andI think one of the easiest
things you can do as acompassionate leader is to be
like oh wait, hey wait, lucy,did you want to say something
here?
And like offering the person astage and helping them get in
there.
The more that happens, the moreI believe they're going to be
able to find the way to workwithin some of the nuances of a
complex workplace.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
I'm right there with you, yeah, and I think there's
so much value here in doing that, because clearly our real goal
is to prevent loneliness in theworkplace.
If we can, what can we do inthe virtual world in which we
live today, where so many fewerpeople are actually there?
What can we also do online totry to do that and either to
(15:15):
identify folks who might be atrisk or to provide opportunities
for them online?
Might we have virtual coffeehours as an example, where folks
come in and out of a Zoom callmeeting one another.
Might we encourage gently, butencourage more folks to turn
their cameras on so they can seeeach other and somehow connect
when they're doing this, becauseit's so easy not to do that.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Yeah, it's a big one that I'm still surprised.
You know, when I work withsmall business and large
corporations, I'm stillsurprised when I'll get on a
meeting that it's I mean, Idon't have numbers, but I'm
going to say somewhere between10 and 25% will still have their
cameras off, and I get it right.
There's reasons for that and wesupport you if that's what's
going to best serve you.
But you build connection whenyou're able to see people in
(16:05):
addition to speaking, so we canstill work with it if there's a
reason why you can't have yourcamera on.
But that opening that up Ithink is, you know, in back to
back Zoom meetings and Slackcheck-ins, like how leaders can
find opportunities for buildingthat connection without killing
productivity.
I love that you're sayingoffering like virtual coffee
hours.
Are there other things thatyou're suggesting that they do?
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Yeah, I think you know we often I'm going to say
we.
I think it is not uncommon forfolks to kind of brush off that
critical one-on-one conversationthat we have with our folks.
We're busy.
We just don't have time thisweek, that's what goes away.
It is critically important totake the time to build those
relationships, both fromproductivity, okay, as well as
(16:49):
from helping your person, youremployee, whomever that is your
colleague feel comfortable andfeel like they're part of a team
.
And that is where you build thetrust that we need for folks to
also be able to share.
I don't think I'm doing too wellon this team.
What might I do?
Or to have that opportunity toask that deeper question.
You know I'm constantly askedwell, how do we recognize
(17:10):
loneliness in our employees?
What do we look for anyway?
What are those kinds of things?
Well, it's important to lookfor that person who is not
sharing, who may have used to besharing and now they've kind of
withdrawn.
They have reduced participationin things.
They might have changes in thequality of their work.
You might notice they'resomewhat anxious now.
(17:34):
They're moving their hands inways they didn't before.
They're less expressive thanthey used to be Delayed.
You asked for something onFriday and they don't give it to
you till Tuesday.
Okay, know what I mean.
So things that are theirengagement is less.
They're not turning on theirvideo when they used to why not
as we begin to notice things oras somebody is different than
(17:58):
the norm in any way?
That's the person we want toask even more questions of.
We want to make sure that theyfeel comfortable and pay
attention to them.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
So, lucy, I love again that you just gave seven
signs I counted as you werespeaking seven signs of what a
manager can do to spot some ofthat chronic loneliness in their
team.
So my follow-up question tothat is how do you suggest they
walk the line between empathybut not overstepping?
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Yeah, and I think that's a really tough question
to ask, and I think you know somuch of this is building that
trust and is also the leadersaying I'm going to be
vulnerable, I'm going to sharepersonal stories?
I'm going to say as I wouldtell you, jill, we already did
when we first started talkingthat we are willing to be
(18:49):
vulnerable and tell our stories,that we're willing to share
real stories of connection andmodel the behavior we're talking
about, which also helps tobuild trust.
But you don't want to go toofar, you want to be thoughtful.
Just as an example, when I saidI would love to have everybody
turn their cameras on, therereally are some people for whom
that truly is not comfortable.
(19:09):
I'm not going to push thatperson, of course.
Of course I'm going to try tofigure out where they are by
building trust with them so thatthey feel comfortable enough
telling me where theirboundaries are.
I think you know it is a fineline to some degree, but if we
truly are successful in creatinga culture of connection and
(19:30):
care about each other and safetyand comfort, then I think a lot
of this will end up working itsway out.
That does not mean to me.
I mean as an example.
I am a hugger.
I mean like really, if we weretogether, I would take a hug for
you.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
I'm all down with that, but I would have asked you
first, sure if it was okay.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
You know, I think that is that important, and
there are boundaries that weneed to think about as we do
this.
Not everybody is awkward andthey feel uncomfortable if I
were to do that to them, inspite of me smiling and acting
like I really care about you,because I do.
But I think we have to besensitive to those boundaries,
we have to pay attention, andyet we cannot be afraid to
(20:11):
establish a culture ofconnection.
That is really important to dofor everyone's sake, for success
of the business as well.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
So one of the things that's coming up to you, as
you're saying, culture ofconnection and I don't know if
you know Scott Galloway.
He's a co-host of the Pivotpodcast.
He also is an NYU professor andhe's written a couple of books,
and one of the books that he'sworking on now I believe it
comes out this fall is aboutsort of and I'm not on the
inside track, I'm just tellingyou what I read in the public.
(20:41):
You know, the public discourseis that he's writing a book on
men and men and loneliness.
And then we know that men areexperiencing chronic, rising
levels of loneliness,particularly amongst younger and
middle aged.
There was a stat that I read asI was preparing to meet with you
that one in three men, or closeto 30%, report having no close
(21:05):
friend, which is a 5x increasejust in the last 20 years.
And then Professor Garley alsotalks about that.
There's like a friendshiprecession, which means like
there's declining male communityengagement.
You know, we know this as aresult of COVID.
There's like less third spaces,right?
(21:27):
So if we're not going to theoffice, we're not going to the
mosque, the church, thesynagogue, the Lions Club, the
VFW halls, the Lions Club, theVFW halls, like if we're not
meeting in those other spacesthe gym then do you have any
thoughts and I know I'm kind ofputting you on the spot here,
(21:49):
but do you have any thoughts ofways that we can support men in
ways that feel aligned to whattheir needs might be as they're
experiencing loneliness?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
I'm going to put that on hold just one second, if
that's okay.
Absolutely, I think what you'vetouched on is just so
critically important that youknow we have certain things in
our brains that we've kind ofset, that are assumptions that
may or may not be correct, youknow, and as we think about
loneliness, one of them and Ireally promise I'll get back to
(22:16):
your question, but one of themgets to and I have three kind of
misunderstandings.
I think we think of ages andthis is really important, and
what you often envision inLonely is that little old lady,
I hate to say, because that's mesitting in a windowsill, being
silhouetted, seeming lonely, andoh my gosh, guess what.
They're not.
(22:36):
Most of them aren't.
The number one area demographicfor loneliness people between
the ages of 18 and 34.
And I think that is criticalfor your audience because so
many of us, especially as we'regrowing through, growing, you
know, in our responsibilitylevels and things in the
workplace, are that age or areleaning folks that age.
(22:57):
So they, we have to pay veryclose attention to them.
Another one is the, that, thatpower, the mind body connection.
And the last one is we can belonely even in a group.
A lot of people are togetherand we're having a grand time.
You're sitting there atThanksgiving with your family
going this should be the best,most exciting time of my life
(23:18):
and you're lonely as you can bebecause you feel different or
othered or whatever it may be.
And New York City lonely placelots of people.
So, as we think about men, iswhere I'm going with this.
So there was a reason for that.
As we think about men, I thinkoften people think and this
country was founded on we arerunged individuals.
(23:39):
Put yourself up by thebootstraps, you don't need
anybody else.
Yeah, we do.
Yes, desperately do.
And women have traditionally aswe have thought about the role
of women way historically havebeen more social, have been in
groups while men went out tohunt by themselves.
Go way back there.
So they do need this as well.
There is no gender.
(24:00):
Men don't need it, women do,right, right.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
And I think that's the point that I'm trying to
make.
Like, women may talk about itmore men, it may be more
invisible or more stigmatized inmen, but I just want us.
You know I'm curious and I knowwe don't have the research, but
I'm curious.
When you mentioned that age of18 to 34, the role that social
media plays, I know just formyself.
(24:25):
If I start, if I look at socialmedia before noon, I don't feel
great, either because ofsomething it's telling me about
what's going on in the world orthere's something that's like
setting off a compare anddespair, and I don't want to
start my morning or my day withthe whole world in my head.
I want to start my day.
I choose prayer and meditation,I choose a practice.
(24:48):
I want to start my dayfortifying myself, taking my
version of medicine and myvitamins before I then go out
into the world.
And I just wonder the role, ifyou have any thoughts on the
role that social media might beplaying here.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Certainly it is, there's no question about that
as is, again, the workplace notcoming back into the workplace,
as is what you mentioned earlierabout us not being a part of
clubs as much as we were, orchurches as much as we were, or
any of those things.
Anytime we take away a socialconnection or place for that and
that has happened, especiallywith men, I think you're
(25:21):
absolutely correct.
That's really hard or anytimewe give a substitute.
You know, the thing aboutsocial media is it can be
wonderful.
Right now, we're using thepower of it to try to get this
message out.
You see it in families all thetime, where folks are connecting
in meaningful ways thatotherwise could not, and it
means something where folks areconnecting in meaningful ways
that otherwise could not, and itmeans something.
(25:43):
Where we find, though, that itdoes cause issues, clearly, is
when people are doing that as asubstitute for real-life
connections, because it can'tpossibly solve the same issue as
a good hug from somebody thatyou care about usually provides.
It's also very difficult tobuild those initial
relationships that way.
It's a help to maintain onethat you've already built.
It's difficult to buildsomething that's meaningful and
(26:05):
authentic this way, you know.
So, yeah, it has had an impact,and all the false friends and
also all of the, the FOMA, youknow, fear of being left out and
all that stuff is very realbecause so much of this
loneliness comes from againfeeling like you don't belong or
aren't seen or heard Right, andthat it just in droves drives
(26:27):
that through social media, as weknow.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Yeah, and I was just talking with a group of
professional women who were theywere a mixture of married or
coupled up, but maybe notnecessarily having children or
having children yet.
And I think, also rememberingthat whether it's by choice or
(26:50):
by medical reasons, there's awhole group of people that want
to be included and maybe theycan't share the same story, but
there's another way of bringingthem into the conversation.
I think it's really importantthat we do have employee
resource groups for moms, but Ialso think it's important to
(27:11):
make sure that we don't other.
You know, and that wasbasically the takeaway it was
about 50 women in this groupthat were talking about and
saying like that they don't feelthat there's a place for them
in the workplace because they'renot a man and they're not a mom
.
They're a contributor andcreating value, and I thought
that was a really interestingtake on other ways that we other
(27:33):
people or people can feellonely.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
There's so many ways to do that and that's why, to me
, I'm big in culture and createculture in the workplace, and,
to me, when the whole culture isabout.
In fact, I was just readingsomething today and I'll just
share with you that a companycould kind of use to be
thoughtful about.
This isn't a nice to have, it'san essential when we feel seen,
(28:04):
valued and included.
We do our best work.
Let's keep building a culturewhere everyone belongs.
That's not stovepipingindividuals saying you're
different, you're other,therefore you're important, it's
we're all important, and thatyou know when it's walking again
that fine line.
How do we see everyone?
How do we also identify andprevent these issues?
(28:25):
Because some people are setups.
You know, once you're a new mom, we know you might have issues
if you just relocated, okay, howdo we deal with that?
If someone's just graduatedfrom college and has left their
whole support system behind, wecan identify them as potentially
at risk.
A person who's just gotten adivorce?
Yes, how do we support them?
(28:45):
We have great support systemsin place for grieving and for
support when we lose someone,when someone dies.
We don't have good supportsystems in place when we lose
people in other ways.
We lose our friends when wemove, yeah, when we leave
college, when we have a child,and suddenly we can't go out
anymore with our friends in theevening because we're busy.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Yeah, other priorities, right, okay, so
we've talked about the numbersand the impact financially and
productivity.
So that's for the leaders andthe business owners and the
people who are the money honeys,right, we've talked about it
that way.
We've also then talked aboutyour various signs Again, I
counted seven that you gave theexamples on what leaders at all
(29:30):
levels can do to spot theloneliness.
We talked about how, findingways to be inclusive.
I would love, just as we startto wrap, like what anybody who's
listening today what they cando, especially if they don't
control the purse, they don'tcontrol the bank or the money
impact of things.
What can they do?
Today?
They spot somebody on theirteam that they're like, hmm,
(29:52):
that kind of fits thatdescription or you know they've
been a little quiet lately.
What would you say someone doesright today to create a culture
of inclusion, quiet lately.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
What would you say someone does right today to
create a culture of inclusion?
Okay, you asked severalquestions there.
One was about an individual,one was about creating a culture
.
There are, you know, if thereis an individual that you see
that you wonder.
You know, approaching them isthe right thing.
We have to de-stigmatize thisand one way to do it, of course,
is to create that culture.
So everybody's a part ofconnection is valued and is
(30:24):
critical in this culture and weunderstand that.
Once you've done that, then theactual discussions come
naturally, because I, as yourleader, I'm going to already be
talking about that and I'm goingto see it and I'm going to say
to a person that I identify someof these signs in.
You know how things go on foryou.
You know how do you feel as ateam.
How's work going?
(30:45):
You know, is there anything youneed?
We can also do surveys, ofcourse, where we actually are
looking at workplace culture andwe're trying to find out how do
you feel valued?
Do you feel seen?
How do you feel as a teammember?
What does that look like foryou?
So there are ways.
As a leader, manager, I cantalk to someone, I can call them
, I can stop by their desk, Ican see them.
(31:06):
You know, we can of coursereward connections that we see
so that everybody sees that'spart of a culture.
But I can stop by the desk andsay you know what?
You've been a little bit quietrecently.
Is everything okay?
Is anything we can do to bemore supportive?
But it is identifying it,recognizing it, showing you care
.
There are clearly tons of waysto do this.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
I love the part that you touched on because it's
something I deploy when I workwith companies and small
businesses regularly is thewe'll call it an employee
engagement survey.
But it's like three questionsand just touching base and then
asking it regularly.
This is not a once a year andthen come away.
Maybe it's monthly.
Maybe you know if you're askingtwo quick radio button.
Yes, no scale of one to 10 kindof questions.
(31:50):
It takes two or three minutesfor somebody to answer that, but
it also will help you get apulse on what's going on.
I always say there's cultureand there's climate.
If your culture is strong, youcan withstand a climate change
which might be a shift inbusiness.
You know one new business lostnew business, new hires, mergers
(32:10):
, acquisitions.
You can withstand.
If your culture is strong, youcan withstand the climate that
you're in.
How can people work.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
It builds resilience, doesn't it?
Yeah, absolutely, connectionbuilds resilience because it
builds confidence.
It builds trust and, as you're,I mean connection is about
trust anyway, isn't it?
And as you're building thattrust, you can identify and deal
with change in so much of abetter way.
So, yeah, I'm sorry you wereasking.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
I was going to ask you.
I'm going to put all of yourinformation in the show notes
how they can read about youpersonally and the cost of
loneliness project.
But how do?
Speaker 2 (32:46):
people work with you.
How do people work with me?
They can find me on my website.
The cost of loneliness Okay,That'll be the best way.
And again, I would love tospeak anywhere anytime on this
topic.
For anybody who's interestedand work with folks in their
organizations, wherever it maybe, reach out, and I would be
delighted to talk with you aboutany of these things.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Okay, I will put make sure that all of your
information is in the show notesand, if you have questions, I'm
looking at Lucy and, knowingthat I know she will come back,
she will answer those questions.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
I definitely will do everything I can.
I will for sure be back.
I really do believe that thiswhole concept is about
prevention.
It's identifying, it'sidentifying possibilities, it's
creating culture, becauseconnection, you know we can say
connection is medicine, and Ithink it is.
But prevention isn't evenbetter medicine because you
(33:38):
really don't need it at thatpoint.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Thank you, thank you.
That's a beautiful place to end, so if you have questions or
feedback, email us at hello atjillgriffincoachingcom and, as
always, always be intentionaland please be kind to each other
.
All right, thank you, lucy, forbeing here and we'll see you
soon.
Bye, thank you, bye.
Hey everyone, this is Jill Griffin, the host of the
Career Refresh, and today I havea guest that I have wanted to
interview for a while.
I've been a fan of her work andwe're going to talk about the
bulk of her current work today.
Lucy is the regulatory expertand the founder and president of
the Cost of Loneliness Project.
The Cost of Loneliness Projectis a mission-driven organization
(00:22):
advancing programs designed toincrease awareness and the
understanding of chronicloneliness and how we can create
action that improves connection, mitigate public health issues
and, ultimately, leaders in theworkplace need to understand,
not only for themselves but fortheir clients, the people they
serve, their teams what is theimpact of chronic loneliness.
(00:45):
And with that I welcome Lucy,rose and thank you, jill, thanks
for having me, thanks for beinghere.
So let's, just before we jumpinto the juicy part around
loneliness and the really.
Working for the FDA, you'vealso worked for the top
(01:06):
consulting organizations.
You started it looks like wayback and doing sales rep and
farmer.
You're also a physician'sassistant.
Tell us how you got throughthat and where you are today,
cause I always find that sointeresting and people
understanding that career pathsare not always linear and that
they take lots of differentshapes and sizes and create what
we are today.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
You got that right.
Mine has certainly not beenlinear, that's for sure.
I'll do it real fast, but firstI just have to give notice of
the fact you said we're allleaders.
I could not agree more.
And for everybody listening aswe talk about loneliness and
about career paths and that kindof stuff, we all are and we all
have opportunities every day todemonstrate that.
So thank you.
(01:52):
I started as a sales rep.
I have an MBA, I'm a PA as wellAll kinds of weird things in
terms of titles but bottom lineis I have been involved in
healthcare my whole career, beit as a sales rep or a sales
manager.
I was able to run the group atFDA that regulates all the
advertising promotion ofprescription drugs in the US.
I went out and started, and Iworked at Bristol Myers Squibb
as well before, and was atDeloitte all kinds of things in
between.
I started my own business.
(02:13):
I'm a regulatory expert forpharma, as you said, and had the
privilege of working for about400 clients over that time.
During the time I did that,though, I traveled all the time,
jill all the time, and as Itraveled and I mean really all
the time like I don't know, 8million United Miles and a lot
of stuff.
As you think about travel,though for me, six days a week
(02:35):
for over 20 years, it takes itstoll.
Sitting in the hotel room everynight all the time I gained 40
pounds.
I realized I was not making thefriends that I need as a person
who's one of connection, and itwas taking its toll on me and I
began to think again aboutpublic health and the 40,000
foot level.
If it was impacting me that way, all that travel in the
(02:58):
downtime, I wondered how itmight be impacting others.
So I started doing research,about nine years ago I guess,
now to the impact of lonelinessand realizing the power of the
mind-body connection and whatthat means, and I decided at
that point that, in addition tothe work that I was able to do
as a regulatory expert forpublic health, I really wanted
(03:19):
to delve into this and see if Icouldn't uncover a lot of this,
make it more obvious toeverybody about the connections
and make an impact in our worldat every level, from the
individual to community tosociety, in terms of
understanding the importance ofthis and how we must deal with
it.
I really believe it is thelargest epidemic right now that
(03:41):
we have, we have yeah, frankly,it's one we actually can prevent
.
Do something about.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
So let's get a little bit clear for people listening
what we're talking about.
Right, most people are going toassociate loneliness with
social isolation, but you'vedefined it as something deeper.
Do you want to give us you know?
So we have some of thevocabulary that we're all
working off of around loneliness.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
I'd love to do that and social isolationism to say
that real fast, five timesquickly.
Social isolationism andloneliness certainly can go hand
in hand.
They certainly do, and mostrecent research has shown that
social isolationism also ishighly impactful in a negative
way on people, in addition toloneliness, but as I am defining
(04:25):
loneliness today, I'm talkingabout chronic loneliness, that
loneliness that you feel whenyou're you know you're missing
something in terms of yourconnections, that you need more
of physical impacts that thatmakes on you, and I think the
easiest way to think about thisis think about fright and flight
.
When you see something you'reafraid of, your body, as you
(04:45):
know, your heart starts beatingfaster and you start sweating
and your breathing is faster inorder to handle something that
you know is dangerous to you.
It's a cortisol releaseprimarily, but other epinephrine
is also released in your body.
That cortisol release is greatif you're in real danger,
because you can come faster, andcome faster when it is present
all the time.
(05:05):
Though, when that chronic stressfrom chronic loneliness is
there all the time, bathingyourselves in that, it also
causes inflammation,inflammation, and all of those
things coming together over timecan cause physical changes in
your body, including a 26%increase in mortality.
Oh wow, body, yeah, including a26% increase in mortality.
(05:27):
Oh wow, stroke andcardiovascular disease major
increase in cardiovasculardisease about a 32% increase in
stroke and a 27% increase incardiovascular disease.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
So, lucy, I want to make that clear for listeners to
really understand and breakingthat down and for any of my
longtime listeners.
You know that I talk aboutstress and I talk about fight or
flight and what actuallyhappens.
We have an expert here.
But we've talked about how whenyou're under stress, right,
there's the stressor, theexternal thing that's happening,
and the stress your body isgoing to deal with.
(06:00):
The stressor oh, you know,there's a presentation coming up
, there's a delayed flight,there's an argument with a
friend or family member, thatstress you're going to deal with
that.
Your mind and your brain isgoing to know how to communicate
.
But I want Lucy to take usthrough what happens actually to
the body and the secondarysystem shutting down, because I
think when we really understandthat, we start to think twice
(06:21):
about how important is this andhow do I want to approach and be
intentional, moving forward.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yeah, and I think you're just.
You're really onto somethingand all of us have felt it.
You actually named three thingsthere, like like we got a big
speech coming up and for youraudience.
That happens to them all thetime and it is something that
most people are actually afraidof.
And so when you do think aboutyour body and how it feels in
that moment, you know your yourheartbeats faster.
(06:47):
You can feel it, sometimes inyour chest, you're breathing
quicker.
You sometimes get sweaty palms.
You know your knees get weak.
All of that is a naturalreaction to stress.
It's a good thing Most of thetime because it's giving our
body a warning oh my gosh,something's wrong and we're
going to help you take care ofit, or I'm going to help you
take care of it, because that'swhat it does.
That's a great thing.
(07:08):
Until it lasts in a chronic way, and as you last in a chronic
way through that and you havemore cortisol, what we and more
of the physical reactions tothis stress over a long time, a
chronic loneliness, which canhappen again when you're not
getting, you know, if you don'thave a single best friend, no
(07:29):
one that you share with, no onethat you feel really safe around
.
Sometimes it has to do withpurpose.
There are a lot of things therethat can cause you to feel like
you don't have what you need.
When that happens chronically,okay, then all of those things
come together and we do a coupleof things.
Sometimes we try to soothe thatbehavior and it can lead to
(07:50):
things like alcoholism, otherkinds of addiction.
Okay, sometimes that soothingis overeating and it can lead to
obesity, which takes us to someof our issues with type 2
diabetes epidemic now, as youknow, and other issues with
overweight.
But the fact is, it also causesinflammation and when we look
(08:13):
at that inflammation, some ofthe data is telling us now that
it might increase the chances ofdementia up to 50%.
Now, again, all these numbersthat I'm sharing today, if you
read different sources, if youread Cigna, if you read Harvard
Business Review any of these,they're going to gallop holes.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Give you a variation on the data.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
But it's that mind-body connection over time
that is scary for all of us.
Again, you know, when you lookat cardiovascular disease being
increased by 29%, stroke by 32%,more cancer due to this.
And we can relate that todollars at work because loss of
productivity I actually wrote itdown so I wouldn't get it wrong
(08:52):
the loss of productivity inextra medicine spending let's go
there for Medicare $6.7 billiona year.
The loss of productivity inworkplace is monstrous for
apathyism, for healthcare costs,all those things.
A lot happens.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
What I'm hearing you say as takeaways for our
listeners is one as anindividual, you should care
because while the stress at sometimes will help you perform,
it's also going to suppress allyour secondary systems.
What do we mean by that?
Your digestive system, yourreproductive system right, you
have a stomach ache, right?
That's what we're talking about.
Those other systems tend tostart to slow down because we're
(09:33):
always in the stress which ourbody is saying perform, perform,
perform or fight, right, that'sthe fight or flight.
So thinking about your sleepdisrupted all of that.
So now, when you're not in thatstressor experience and you're
out of it, well, if we don'trestart our systems and that's
what you're talking about in themind-body connection our bodies
can handle the stress as longas we're balancing the mind-body
(09:55):
part of it.
So when we layer on that andunderstanding loneliness I mean
you and I were talking justbefore the US Surgeon General
Murthy, right, that quote thatshe gave around chronic
loneliness being as harmful assmoking 15 cigarettes a day.
I mean that's staggering.
I know you've seen this in yourwork firsthand.
(10:16):
If we bring it back into theworkplace, should leaders be
solving for this lonelinessissue or is it something that's
in the private of your.
Oh, let's let.
Oh, you've just opened like athousand doors.
I know I'm asking you a lot ofquestions, but my brain's always
making connections.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
You're on and connections are the right word.
First, I want to make sure thatI give that quote to the right
place.
The person who did the work onthe 15 cigarettes a day was
Julianne Holt Lunsford, who isone of the leading researchers
in loneliness and connectionsout of Salt Lake City and she's
an academician did the work andshe showed that all-cause
mortality is increased by up to26%.
(10:59):
Guys no joke from loneliness,folks who are chronically lonely
.
And Dr Murdy was, you know, inhis a lot of work and all of his
kind of presentations and workhe quotes that a lot that source
.
So you see it a lot.
But it was Julianne whoactually did the research to
discover that.
Now to answer your question,should we be concerned as
(11:21):
business leaders or whateverworld you're in, nonprofit,
whatever that may be?
Yes, we should, because let megive you some things that
actually happen when people arechronically lonely in the
workplace.
Things like absenteeismincreases the quality of the
work that they produce decrease.
Their ability to collaborate asteammates decreases.
(11:42):
Their creativity is somewhatstifled because they lose their
energy and excitement aroundthings.
Your health costs go up.
We're doing that in terms of thecosts that we do and we have to
backfill, we end up losing morepeople because when they're
lonely and when they'reuncomfortable and they're not
performing as well as they mightwant to, or they don't feel
(12:04):
seen, which is what a lot ofthis is.
You know a lot of people.
If you don't feel seen or don'tfeel included or a part of then
, that drives loneliness.
So it is our responsibility Ithink, from both a caring human,
empath type standpoint, butalso from a purely business
dollar standpoint truth be toldthat as leaders, we pay
(12:27):
attention to this and that wecreate a culture, in essence, of
attention to this, a culture ofconnection, a culture of
belonging and as part of what wedo as leaders, individually and
as corporate.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
So people who are listening to this are probably
saying, like, this sounds like agreat idea.
I love this idea, but, jill, doyou know what's on my plate
right now?
Lucy, how am I going to do this?
I have to.
You know, I have thepresentation, I have numbers to
deliver, I have all these likehow can I possibly take this on
too?
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Okay, it's a lot easier than you think.
Okay, okay, and the numbers todeliver depend on this to a
great extent, and I think thatis a really important thing.
This is not an either or.
It's a both and Okay.
And for us to be able to be aseffective in our results as we
wanna be, then we have to payattention to each person and
(13:21):
their contributions, as well asthe collective and how we work
as teams.
So as we do that, what can wedo?
First thing, I think, as leadermanagers, I think we can
normalize a conversation aroundwhat it means to be connected
and what it means to be a partof a team, so we can talk about
also well-being and what thatmeans, not just physically have
(13:42):
you gone to the gym this week?
But asking open-ended questionslike how are you feeling as
part of the team?
Do you feel like things aregoing well?
Is there anything we can dothere?
I think we can pay moreattention with intentionality
about celebrating contributions,about paying attention to the
quiet person at the meeting.
Why are they being quiet?
(14:02):
None of this takes any time ormoney.
It's just paying attention in ameeting, right?
Why is that person notcontributing?
Speaker 1 (14:09):
I love that you say that, because I feel like going
back to everybody is a leader.
There's maybe the person at thetop of the hierarchy, but as
humans, if you're on that Zoomcall or you're in that meeting
and there's either someone whoeither isn't participating
getting curious as to why ordoes, every time they try to
talk, someone accidentally stepson them and steps over them and
(14:31):
they're being interrupted, andI think one of the easiest
things you can do as acompassionate leader is to be
like oh wait, hey wait, lucy,did you want to say something
here?
And like offering the person astage and helping them get in
there.
The more that happens, the moreI believe they're going to be
able to find the way to workwithin some of the nuances of a
complex workplace.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
I'm right there with you, yeah, and I think there's
so much value here in doing that, because clearly our real goal
is to prevent loneliness in theworkplace.
If we can, what can we do inthe virtual world in which we
live today, where so many fewerpeople are actually there?
What can we also do online totry to do that and either to
(15:15):
identify folks who might be atrisk or to provide opportunities
for them online?
Might we have virtual coffeehours as an example, where folks
come in and out of a Zoom callmeeting one another.
Might we encourage gently, butencourage more folks to turn
their cameras on so they can seeeach other and somehow connect
when they're doing this, becauseit's so easy not to do that.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Yeah, it's a big one that I'm still surprised.
You know, when I work withsmall business and large
corporations, I'm stillsurprised when I'll get on a
meeting that it's I mean, Idon't have numbers, but I'm
going to say somewhere between10 and 25% will still have their
cameras off, and I get it right.
There's reasons for that and wesupport you if that's what's
going to best serve you.
But you build connection whenyou're able to see people in
(16:05):
addition to speaking, so we canstill work with it if there's a
reason why you can't have yourcamera on.
But that opening that up Ithink is, you know, in back to
back Zoom meetings and Slackcheck-ins, like how leaders can
find opportunities for buildingthat connection without killing
productivity.
I love that you're sayingoffering like virtual coffee
hours.
Are there other things thatyou're suggesting that they do?
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Yeah, I think you know we often I'm going to say
we.
I think it is not uncommon forfolks to kind of brush off that
critical one-on-one conversationthat we have with our folks.
We're busy.
We just don't have time thisweek, that's what goes away.
It is critically important totake the time to build those
relationships, both fromproductivity, okay, as well as
(16:49):
from helping your person, youremployee, whomever that is your
colleague feel comfortable andfeel like they're part of a team
.
And that is where you build thetrust that we need for folks to
also be able to share.
I don't think I'm doing too wellon this team.
What might I do?
Or to have that opportunity toask that deeper question.
You know I'm constantly askedwell, how do we recognize
(17:10):
loneliness in our employees?
What do we look for anyway?
What are those kinds of things?
Well, it's important to lookfor that person who is not
sharing, who may have used to besharing and now they've kind of
withdrawn.
They have reduced participationin things.
They might have changes in thequality of their work.
You might notice they'resomewhat anxious now.
(17:34):
They're moving their hands inways they didn't before.
They're less expressive thanthey used to be Delayed.
You asked for something onFriday and they don't give it to
you till Tuesday.
Okay, know what I mean.
So things that are theirengagement is less.
They're not turning on theirvideo when they used to why not
as we begin to notice things oras somebody is different than
(17:58):
the norm in any way?
That's the person we want toask even more questions of.
We want to make sure that theyfeel comfortable and pay
attention to them.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
So, lucy, I love again that you just gave seven
signs I counted as you werespeaking seven signs of what a
manager can do to spot some ofthat chronic loneliness in their
team.
So my follow-up question tothat is how do you suggest they
walk the line between empathybut not overstepping?
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Yeah, and I think that's a really tough question
to ask, and I think you know somuch of this is building that
trust and is also the leadersaying I'm going to be
vulnerable, I'm going to sharepersonal stories?
I'm going to say as I wouldtell you, jill, we already did
when we first started talkingthat we are willing to be
(18:49):
vulnerable and tell our stories,that we're willing to share
real stories of connection andmodel the behavior we're talking
about, which also helps tobuild trust.
But you don't want to go toofar, you want to be thoughtful.
Just as an example, when I saidI would love to have everybody
turn their cameras on, therereally are some people for whom
that truly is not comfortable.
(19:09):
I'm not going to push thatperson, of course.
Of course I'm going to try tofigure out where they are by
building trust with them so thatthey feel comfortable enough
telling me where theirboundaries are.
I think you know it is a fineline to some degree, but if we
truly are successful in creatinga culture of connection and
(19:30):
care about each other and safetyand comfort, then I think a lot
of this will end up working itsway out.
That does not mean to me.
I mean as an example.
I am a hugger.
I mean like really, if we weretogether, I would take a hug for
you.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
I'm all down with that, but I would have asked you
first, sure if it was okay.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
You know, I think that is that important, and
there are boundaries that weneed to think about as we do
this.
Not everybody is awkward andthey feel uncomfortable if I
were to do that to them, inspite of me smiling and acting
like I really care about you,because I do.
But I think we have to besensitive to those boundaries,
we have to pay attention, andyet we cannot be afraid to
(20:11):
establish a culture ofconnection.
That is really important to dofor everyone's sake, for success
of the business as well.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
So one of the things that's coming up to you, as
you're saying, culture ofconnection and I don't know if
you know Scott Galloway.
He's a co-host of the Pivotpodcast.
He also is an NYU professor andhe's written a couple of books,
and one of the books that he'sworking on now I believe it
comes out this fall is aboutsort of and I'm not on the
inside track, I'm just tellingyou what I read in the public.
(20:41):
You know, the public discourseis that he's writing a book on
men and men and loneliness.
And then we know that men areexperiencing chronic, rising
levels of loneliness,particularly amongst younger and
middle aged.
There was a stat that I read asI was preparing to meet with you
that one in three men, or closeto 30%, report having no close
(21:05):
friend, which is a 5x increasejust in the last 20 years.
And then Professor Garley alsotalks about that.
There's like a friendshiprecession, which means like
there's declining male communityengagement.
You know, we know this as aresult of COVID.
There's like less third spaces,right?
(21:27):
So if we're not going to theoffice, we're not going to the
mosque, the church, thesynagogue, the Lions Club, the
VFW halls, the Lions Club, theVFW halls, like if we're not
meeting in those other spacesthe gym then do you have any
thoughts and I know I'm kind ofputting you on the spot here,
(21:49):
but do you have any thoughts ofways that we can support men in
ways that feel aligned to whattheir needs might be as they're
experiencing loneliness?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
I'm going to put that on hold just one second, if
that's okay.
Absolutely, I think what you'vetouched on is just so
critically important that youknow we have certain things in
our brains that we've kind ofset, that are assumptions that
may or may not be correct, youknow, and as we think about
loneliness, one of them and Ireally promise I'll get back to
(22:16):
your question, but one of themgets to and I have three kind of
misunderstandings.
I think we think of ages andthis is really important, and
what you often envision inLonely is that little old lady,
I hate to say, because that's mesitting in a windowsill, being
silhouetted, seeming lonely, andoh my gosh, guess what.
They're not.
(22:36):
Most of them aren't.
The number one area demographicfor loneliness people between
the ages of 18 and 34.
And I think that is criticalfor your audience because so
many of us, especially as we'regrowing through, growing, you
know, in our responsibilitylevels and things in the
workplace, are that age or areleaning folks that age.
(22:57):
So they, we have to pay veryclose attention to them.
Another one is the, that, thatpower, the mind body connection.
And the last one is we can belonely even in a group.
A lot of people are togetherand we're having a grand time.
You're sitting there atThanksgiving with your family
going this should be the best,most exciting time of my life
(23:18):
and you're lonely as you can bebecause you feel different or
othered or whatever it may be.
And New York City lonely placelots of people.
So, as we think about men, iswhere I'm going with this.
So there was a reason for that.
As we think about men, I thinkoften people think and this
country was founded on we arerunged individuals.
(23:39):
Put yourself up by thebootstraps, you don't need
anybody else.
Yeah, we do.
Yes, desperately do.
And women have traditionally aswe have thought about the role
of women way historically havebeen more social, have been in
groups while men went out tohunt by themselves.
Go way back there.
So they do need this as well.
There is no gender.
(24:00):
Men don't need it, women do,right, right.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
And I think that's the point that I'm trying to
make.
Like, women may talk about itmore men, it may be more
invisible or more stigmatized inmen, but I just want us.
You know I'm curious and I knowwe don't have the research, but
I'm curious.
When you mentioned that age of18 to 34, the role that social
media plays, I know just formyself.
(24:25):
If I start, if I look at socialmedia before noon, I don't feel
great, either because ofsomething it's telling me about
what's going on in the world orthere's something that's like
setting off a compare anddespair, and I don't want to
start my morning or my day withthe whole world in my head.
I want to start my day.
I choose prayer and meditation,I choose a practice.
(24:48):
I want to start my dayfortifying myself, taking my
version of medicine and myvitamins before I then go out
into the world.
And I just wonder the role, ifyou have any thoughts on the
role that social media might beplaying here.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Certainly it is, there's no question about that
as is, again, the workplace notcoming back into the workplace,
as is what you mentioned earlierabout us not being a part of
clubs as much as we were, orchurches as much as we were, or
any of those things.
Anytime we take away a socialconnection or place for that and
that has happened, especiallywith men, I think you're
(25:21):
absolutely correct.
That's really hard or anytimewe give a substitute.
You know, the thing aboutsocial media is it can be
wonderful.
Right now, we're using thepower of it to try to get this
message out.
You see it in families all thetime, where folks are connecting
in meaningful ways thatotherwise could not, and it
means something where folks areconnecting in meaningful ways
that otherwise could not, and itmeans something.
(25:43):
Where we find, though, that itdoes cause issues, clearly, is
when people are doing that as asubstitute for real-life
connections, because it can'tpossibly solve the same issue as
a good hug from somebody thatyou care about usually provides.
It's also very difficult tobuild those initial
relationships that way.
It's a help to maintain onethat you've already built.
It's difficult to buildsomething that's meaningful and
(26:05):
authentic this way, you know.
So, yeah, it has had an impact,and all the false friends and
also all of the, the FOMA, youknow, fear of being left out and
all that stuff is very realbecause so much of this
loneliness comes from againfeeling like you don't belong or
aren't seen or heard Right, andthat it just in droves drives
(26:27):
that through social media, as weknow.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Yeah, and I was just talking with a group of
professional women who were theywere a mixture of married or
coupled up, but maybe notnecessarily having children or
having children yet.
And I think, also rememberingthat whether it's by choice or
(26:50):
by medical reasons, there's awhole group of people that want
to be included and maybe theycan't share the same story, but
there's another way of bringingthem into the conversation.
I think it's really importantthat we do have employee
resource groups for moms, but Ialso think it's important to
(27:11):
make sure that we don't other.
You know, and that wasbasically the takeaway it was
about 50 women in this groupthat were talking about and
saying like that they don't feelthat there's a place for them
in the workplace because they'renot a man and they're not a mom
.
They're a contributor andcreating value, and I thought
that was a really interestingtake on other ways that we other
(27:33):
people or people can feellonely.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
There's so many ways to do that and that's why, to me
, I'm big in culture and createculture in the workplace, and,
to me, when the whole culture isabout.
In fact, I was just readingsomething today and I'll just
share with you that a companycould kind of use to be
thoughtful about.
This isn't a nice to have, it'san essential when we feel seen,
(28:04):
valued and included.
We do our best work.
Let's keep building a culturewhere everyone belongs.
That's not stovepipingindividuals saying you're
different, you're other,therefore you're important, it's
we're all important, and thatyou know when it's walking again
that fine line.
How do we see everyone?
How do we also identify andprevent these issues?
(28:25):
Because some people are setups.
You know, once you're a new mom, we know you might have issues
if you just relocated, okay, howdo we deal with that?
If someone's just graduatedfrom college and has left their
whole support system behind, wecan identify them as potentially
at risk.
A person who's just gotten adivorce?
Yes, how do we support them?
(28:45):
We have great support systemsin place for grieving and for
support when we lose someone,when someone dies.
We don't have good supportsystems in place when we lose
people in other ways.
We lose our friends when wemove, yeah, when we leave
college, when we have a child,and suddenly we can't go out
anymore with our friends in theevening because we're busy.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Yeah, other priorities, right, okay, so
we've talked about the numbersand the impact financially and
productivity.
So that's for the leaders andthe business owners and the
people who are the money honeys,right, we've talked about it
that way.
We've also then talked aboutyour various signs Again, I
counted seven that you gave theexamples on what leaders at all
(29:30):
levels can do to spot theloneliness.
We talked about how, findingways to be inclusive.
I would love, just as we startto wrap, like what anybody who's
listening today what they cando, especially if they don't
control the purse, they don'tcontrol the bank or the money
impact of things.
What can they do?
Today?
They spot somebody on theirteam that they're like, hmm,
(29:52):
that kind of fits thatdescription or you know they've
been a little quiet lately.
What would you say someone doesright today to create a culture
of inclusion, quiet lately.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
What would you say someone does right today to
create a culture of inclusion?
Okay, you asked severalquestions there.
One was about an individual,one was about creating a culture
.
There are, you know, if thereis an individual that you see
that you wonder.
You know, approaching them isthe right thing.
We have to de-stigmatize thisand one way to do it, of course,
is to create that culture.
So everybody's a part ofconnection is valued and is
(30:24):
critical in this culture and weunderstand that.
Once you've done that, then theactual discussions come
naturally, because I, as yourleader, I'm going to already be
talking about that and I'm goingto see it and I'm going to say
to a person that I identify someof these signs in.
You know how things go on foryou.
You know how do you feel as ateam.
How's work going?
(30:45):
You know, is there anything youneed?
We can also do surveys, ofcourse, where we actually are
looking at workplace culture andwe're trying to find out how do
you feel valued?
Do you feel seen?
How do you feel as a teammember?
What does that look like foryou?
So there are ways.
As a leader, manager, I cantalk to someone, I can call them
, I can stop by their desk, Ican see them.
(31:06):
You know, we can of coursereward connections that we see
so that everybody sees that'spart of a culture.
But I can stop by the desk andsay you know what?
You've been a little bit quietrecently.
Is everything okay?
Is anything we can do to bemore supportive?
But it is identifying it,recognizing it, showing you care
.
There are clearly tons of waysto do this.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
I love the part that you touched on because it's
something I deploy when I workwith companies and small
businesses regularly is thewe'll call it an employee
engagement survey.
But it's like three questionsand just touching base and then
asking it regularly.
This is not a once a year andthen come away.
Maybe it's monthly.
Maybe you know if you're askingtwo quick radio button.
Yes, no scale of one to 10 kindof questions.
(31:50):
It takes two or three minutesfor somebody to answer that, but
it also will help you get apulse on what's going on.
I always say there's cultureand there's climate.
If your culture is strong, youcan withstand a climate change
which might be a shift inbusiness.
You know one new business lostnew business, new hires, mergers
(32:10):
, acquisitions.
You can withstand.
If your culture is strong, youcan withstand the climate that
you're in.
How can people work.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
It builds resilience, doesn't it?
Yeah, absolutely, connectionbuilds resilience because it
builds confidence.
It builds trust and, as you're,I mean connection is about
trust anyway, isn't it?
And as you're building thattrust, you can identify and deal
with change in so much of abetter way.
So, yeah, I'm sorry you wereasking.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
I was going to ask you.
I'm going to put all of yourinformation in the show notes
how they can read about youpersonally and the cost of
loneliness project.
But how do?
Speaker 2 (32:46):
people work with you.
How do people work with me?
They can find me on my website.
The cost of loneliness Okay,That'll be the best way.
And again, I would love tospeak anywhere anytime on this
topic.
For anybody who's interestedand work with folks in their
organizations, wherever it maybe, reach out, and I would be
delighted to talk with you aboutany of these things.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
Okay, I will put make sure that all of your
information is in the show notesand, if you have questions, I'm
looking at Lucy and, knowingthat I know she will come back,
she will answer those questions.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
I definitely will do everything I can.
I will for sure be back.
I really do believe that thiswhole concept is about
prevention.
It's identifying, it'sidentifying possibilities, it's
creating culture, becauseconnection, you know we can say
connection is medicine, and Ithink it is.
But prevention isn't evenbetter medicine because you
(33:38):
really don't need it at thatpoint.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Thank you, thank you.
That's a beautiful place to end, so if you have questions or
feedback, email us at hello atjillgriffincoachingcom and, as
always, always be intentionaland please be kind to each other
.
All right, thank you, lucy, forbeing here and we'll see you
soon.
Bye, thank you, bye.
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