In this episode, we dive into what it means to create a win-win workplace where both employees and employers thrive. Dr. Angela Jackson shares how to navigate resistance, foster adaptability, build trust, and empower employees for lasting organizational success. We also explore:
- The direct link between employee engagement and company profitability
- Why a zero-sum workplace erodes morale and performance
- How fostering a culture of mutual success benefits everyone.
- The best ways for employees to voice feedback effectively, ensuring they are heard and valued
Show Notes:
Dr. Angela Jackson is hosting an exclusive live book talk on April 14, 2025, a chance to ask questions about The Win-Win Workplace, career growth, and how to thrive in today’s workplace. Learn more HERE.
Show Guest:
Dr. Angela Jackson, founder of Future Forward Strategies and Harvard lecturer, is a leading workplace strategist specializing in the future of work. Known for leading the Future of Work Grand Challenge and reskilling 25,000 workers, she’s a trusted voice featured in HBR, CNN, and TEDx. Her book, The Win-Win Workplace: How Thriving Employees Drive Bottom-Line Success, offers actionable strategies for building inclusive, sustainable, high-performing organizations.
Jill Griffin, host of The Career Refresh, delivers expert guidance on workplace challenges and career transitions. Jill leverages her experience working for the world's top brands like Coca-Cola, Microsoft, Hilton Hotels, and Martha Stewart to address leadership, burnout, team dynamics, and the 4Ps (perfectionism, people-pleasing, procrastination, and personalities).
Visit JillGriffinCoaching.com for more details on:
- Book a 1:1 Career Strategy and Executive Coaching HERE
- Build a Leadership Identity That Earns Trust and Delivers Results.
- Gallup CliftonStrengths Corporate Workshops to build a strengths-based culture
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey friends, I am Jill Griffin, the host of the
Career Refresh podcast, and I'mreally glad that you're here
because I am introducing you toDr Angela Jackson.
She is an author and founder ofFuture Forward Strategies,
which is a labor marketintelligence, design thinking
and strategy firm, and shereally thinks of herself as a
workplace strategist.
In this conversation we go overa lot of what's going on in the
(00:23):
workplace and we weave theconversation back and forth
between when we're talking tothe employer and the employee.
We talk about how do you createa win-win workplace, how do you
make a workplace work for boththe employer and the employee.
We talk about that thedifferences in this generation
versus the younger generations,versus the older generations,
and how some of those gaps arecreating some of the
(00:45):
communication challenges and howyou can navigate them, moving
forward to create again thewin-win workforce.
And then we also talk aboutgetting centered on employees'
voices, with Dr Angela Jacksonis a big proponent of that.
To have a win-win situation,you want to make sure that
you're centering around employeevoices.
One of my favorite things thatcame out of this was talking
(01:06):
about resistance is data, andwhen you have resistance from
your team or your leaders, whatdo you need to learn from that
and where can you dig deeper andreally dig in to what people
are concerned about?
I had one follow-up question forDr Angela Jackson that I wanted
(01:27):
to understand how do we bestbalance the expectations of
newer generations with moreseasoned and experienced workers
?
We often hear about how thenewer workers are not
necessarily understanding how towork with the more seasoned
worker, and the more seasonedworker feels like they're always
having to adjust their workstyle to get you know the
(01:48):
younger and the newergenerations to produce the work
right.
There's that balance in between.
It doesn't mean one side istrue, it's just the perception
out there.
So I asked Dr Angela Jacksonwhat she thought here and she
said that this is about acommitment to a win-win.
I'm going to read her responseOne where we recognize that
(02:10):
expertise exists at every levelof an organization.
A junior employee brings freshideas, adaptability and digital
fluency.
A seasoned colleague offersinstitutional knowledge,
strategic thinking and patternrecognition.
Instead of expecting one groupto adjust to the other, the best
organizations create systemsthat value and leverage the
strengths from the both.
The key is structuredcollaboration, reverse
mentorship, mixed tenureprojects and open discussions
(02:33):
about workplace preferences whenwe shift from generational
stereotypes to shared learning,we create a workplace in which
everyone wins.
By valuing different vantagepoints and fostering reciprocal
learning, we build anorganization where employees
contribute to success and thrivein the process.
I always want to hear from youwhat do you think about what is
(02:54):
going on within the workplaceand what is going on
generationally, and how do wecreate that win-win?
So you know, you can alwaysemail me at hello at
jillgriffincoachingcom, but diginto this episode because I
think you're going to enjoy it.
It's rich with insight and alsoin the show notes you will find
how to get Dr Angela Jackson'snew book.
So dig in and enjoy and I'llsee you soon.
(03:16):
Hi, dr Angela Jackson, I amexcited that you're here For our
viewers and listeners.
I am Jill Griffin.
I am an executive coach and thehost of your Career Refresh,
and I love to bring on authorsand thought leaders.
And today is a treat because wehave Dr Angela Jackson, who has
(03:38):
a new book coming out, and thisepisode if you're watching it
or are listening to it isdropping the day her book comes
out.
It is win-win and I'm going tohave Dr Angela Jackson introduce
herself.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Jill, thank you so much for having me.
So, dr Angela Jackson, I'm CEOof Future Forward Strategies.
I think of myself as aworkforce strategist and really
workplace whisperer, andthinking about how can we use
the research on what we'refinding in companies to make
meaning of what the modernworkplace looks like today, and
(04:12):
what are those strategies thatwe can employ that not only
makes our lives easier as amanager and leader, but actually
has a dotted line to drivingbusiness impact.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
So I mean it's so good, it's so needed, and I know
we are all talking about thisin different circles and I feel
like it's it's.
It could not be more importantand relevant the the idea of a
strategic plan for the win-winworkplace, which, of course, is
the title of your book.
So just to crown everybody, Imean again, you have this
amazing background.
(04:44):
I know you're also an educatorat Harvard University.
In the work that you're doingwithin the university or working
with students is really morethe question how do you see some
of this creating the win-winworkplace?
Is it also showing up onuniversity campuses in this way?
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Oh, it's showing up in a major way.
Jill, I'm smiling now because Iteach two major classes.
Probably each semester.
I'm teaching over 150 gradstudents from literally all over
the world and I'll give you afunny story.
When we talk about the careerrefresh, I remember my first
year of teaching grad studentsat Harvard University.
(05:24):
I get an email from a mom whoseson was upset because I had a
presentation they were going topitch on the first day and I
hadn't given him time to prepareand I said well, the fact that
his mom is reaching out to youalone is enough that I'm like oh
well, that's the thing and Italk about this with colleagues
and friends as we're doing thisworld of work is that we have a
(05:47):
generation now that's in theworkplace.
I'm Gen X.
We think about millennials.
They've been raised differently, you know they've been.
You know there's this thingthat we hear about helicopter
parents, that people are doingeverything for their children
and in certain regards, you know, some of us may say that hasn't
been so great when they need toshow up as adults and listen to
(06:09):
heart truths and everything isnot going to go their way.
But in other respects, I thinkabout how I was raised
professionally, and it was, youknow.
I was given an assignment, Iput my head down, I do the
assignment.
What I'd like to say about thisgeneration is we're talking to
your CEOs, leaders is that thisgeneration is not okay with just
putting their heads down.
(06:29):
They're used to having thingsexplained to them and having a
rationale, and so what I'mseeing with my students I'm
seeing this at the graduatelevel, I'm also seeing this with
emerging leaders in theworkplace is that they want to
be brought into the thinking ofa company, of a CEO, of a
manager.
That's difficult sometimes whenyou've been raised in a
(06:50):
different way the fast-pacednature of business.
But I've seen with my researchand as I shared with you this
was research over 1,200companies over 10 years and just
recently we replicated thisresearch in 355 of Fortune 500
companies and really what wewant to understand were what
were the practices andstrategies of investing in
(07:12):
people that had a dotted lineand showed business impact and
lift on the financial side, andwhat were companies doing to
actually thrive with this newgeneration of workers and what
were the practices that weren'tdoing so well, that were
actually receiving a lot ofpushback and really trying to
understand what changes do weneed to make and which changes
(07:36):
do we need to hold steady on.
But we might need to explainand bring people into our
thinking and bringing folksalong.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Okay.
So for our listeners andviewers, angela and I are going
to weave the conversation.
Sometimes we're going to offerthe insight for the employer or
the senior leader, other timesit will be for the employee, and
I think it's important to weavethat because, again, even if
you're a senior leader, you'restill an employee.
It's like both sides of thecoin.
(08:04):
So what I'm hearing you say issome of the tension that we're
reading about or hearing about,depending on our access to the
conversations that we're in isthe millennials and Gen Zers are
expecting to be brought intothe conversation, which isn't
right or wrong.
It's what they want.
But the seasoned worker that'salready been there has not been
(08:27):
trained on how to do that,because they were just told to
get it done and necessarily itwasn't a participatory
conversation.
At times it wasn't acollaborative.
So that's one of the nuancesyou're noticing is what am I
getting that right?
Speaker 2 (08:41):
That's exactly it when we think about our social
contract.
For many years with the worldof work, it was employer.
We're paying you a salary, anhourly wage for you to do a job,
worker, you come in and you dothat job and the exchanges once
you get that salary that was thewin-win really.
If we think about it, then whatwe're seeing with another
(09:04):
generation of workforce who arefast becoming the majority of
our workforce, is that thatpaycheck exchange, they're
saying, is not enough.
There was recent research thatcame out that people would take
a 30% pay cut if they could workremote.
So that's saying that dinglingof a paycheck is not the
incentive that it used to be.
(09:25):
It still is an incentive.
It's still important, but notas important.
We see people who are alsovoting.
Employees are voting with theirvalues and their feet and so
knowing that, if it's not justthe paycheck that people want,
values and they want seen andheard what I say to leaders are
knowing and having thisinformation and data is there a
(09:47):
potential for us to reimaginewhat it means to be in the
workplace and to work at aparticular company, and I want
to give just a quick example tomake that a bit clear.
I was working with the CEO of afast casual restaurant and he
was really perplexed because hefelt like they had best in class
benefits.
And you know, they wereoffering everyone from the front
(10:08):
lines of the C-suite 401kbenefits.
And when he came to me and Iwas interviewing he's like he
was perplexed because no one wastaking advantage of it.
And he goes Angela, you knowI'm the Harvard researcher.
Angela, do you know why this ishappening?
I would have killed forsomething like this.
And I said is happening?
I would have killed forsomething like this.
And I said well, I don't know,but have you asked them?
And he hadn't.
And so we did a set of what wecall employee listening, and the
(10:35):
book is the first chapter,which is the building block of
centering employee voice.
This is beyond the checkboxthat we've already seen, the
suggestion box that you see incertain companies.
It's really trying to moredeeply understand what are the
expectations of the workforce,what are the lived realities and
what are the barriers thatcould either prevent people from
doing their job or could helpthem do their job better.
And so, in doing that, onething that he learned was that,
(10:58):
while people appreciated the401k we're talking about
millennials, they reportedoverwhelmingly that there were
more important things on theirmind than how they were going to
retire in 50 or 60 years.
They were worried about howwere they getting to work
transportation we found thatmost of the people were spending
26% of their after-tax incomeon just getting to work.
(11:21):
We found about caregivingthey're in the sandwich
generation, and so what thisemployer was able to do was
reallocate some of thosebenefits and give choice and
optionality.
What did that do?
At the end of the day,employers when we serve at the
employees it went from I don'tthink that they care about us.
I feel they do.
My employer cares about me.
I feel like they care about theissues that matter most to me.
(11:43):
So we're talking about the samebudget, we're talking about a
reallocation of that, and whatyou've got is that you've got
employees that is happierbecause of that, and so that's
one example Based on theemployee.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Depending on where they are in that arc of their
life experience, they may makedifferent choices in that and
depending on where they are inthat arc of their life
experience.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
they may make different choices in that and
they may say things in differentvalue right, the value of
something is different, right?
Speaker 1 (12:10):
I think the other thing that's the nuance of what
you didn't say which I think isimportant for our listeners to
think about is so often when wehear about the tension between
leadership, we'll just say andthe employee.
It's the interpretation as ifthe employee wants to change the
company or to change whatthey're doing, or to change the
(12:30):
goals.
And while I'm sure that'shappening in some pockets, the
reality is we're not asking youto change the goal, the mission
of the company.
We're asking you to center onemployee well-being and
therefore the ethos of thecompany might change, but you
still might be making widgets,you still might be a quick
service restaurant, but the wayyou're showing up and I think
(12:52):
when we read the articles in theWall Street Journal and the
Financial Times and et cetera,or an HR article, we have to
understand the ask is about.
We want to be, oh my God,treated as humans.
We don't want to be treated as,you know, cogs in a wheel.
And you, changing the way youdo business doesn't mean that
(13:13):
you have to reinvent yourproduct, or maybe it does, but
that's not the first line ofwhat we're talking about here
and I think that's a majordistinction that I often hear
pushback on.
Yeah, employees don't knowthey're not the strategic
leaders we didn't say they were.
They're asking to be treatedwith, you know, centering on
employee well-being yeah, andit's well-being, but it's also
(13:33):
saying I love what you said.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
You know they're not the strategists.
What we saw in companies wasanother phenomenon where they
were actually thriving is that,depending on where an employee
sat, there was a feeling of thatthat person had a set of
expertise and had a viewpointfrom where they sit within the
organization.
So, whether they're at thefront desk, they might have
(13:57):
insights on how you could betterwelcome people, and so the idea
is that really valuing everyoneand saying they have a set of
information and expertise thatwhen we're doing a strategy, we
need to know that.
We need to know what thebarriers are.
We're working with a globalfinancial firm and they noticed
that with all of their bankbranches, that there were a
(14:20):
third that were very highperforming branches, they had a
second that were moderate, thatcould do better, and they had
the underperforming ones.
And it was fascinating when theybegan to do some of this,
listening to understand whatsome of those barriers are and
their reasons were when theybegin to center that to think
about things that they could dofor the employee.
They begin to center that tothink about things that they
(14:40):
could do for the employee.
They begin to measure this andthe assets under management at
those banks, at some of thosenon-performing stores, begin to
go up.
As employee engagement went up,so did assets under management,
and so there's a directcorrelation to some of these dot
dot dots that I'm saying.
My big guidance to companiesare begin to look at this, see
(15:02):
what employees are wanting, seeif it's something that you can
measure and that actually fitswithin your existing strategy.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
So the Right Breaking that down another way and again
.
We don't know for sure, butwhat we hear implied in that is
that when employees are engagedand well taken care for, the
assets under management increasebecause if they're showing up
differently than theirinteractions with their end
consumer or customer, they'reable to increase in customer
(15:29):
retention and everyone is just alittle bit happier and you want
to do business with companiesthat you also feel good about
doing business with.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Well, think about that.
You know, I've had certainbanking relationships that I
like.
I would avoid them like theplague.
I'd rather go to the ATM, butif there's a friendly face maybe
you'd stop in.
We're all looking forconnection.
That's that human touch point.
And again, I keep saying, if wemeasure these things, we can
see some indicators.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
I love it.
Let's get into a couple of bookquestions so just to ground
everybody.
I mean I know the answerbecause I read the book and
(16:17):
again I'll put was really reallywell, just so simple as a
framework to understand thezero-sum game workplace and why
you want to be in a win-winorganization.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Absolutely.
When we looked at the zero-sumworkplace and looked at a set of
companies, what we saw was atraditional management, and it's
the one that we talked about,that many of us were raised
professionally.
You know your exchange forshowing up as a paycheck and
that's what we owe you, and youknow we're in business and
that's what you're here to do.
What's happening in yourpersonal life doesn't matter
(16:47):
that.
Check that at the door.
Come in and do the work.
Someone has to lose in this,and so if there's going to be a
loser, it's going to be you.
We'll do a reduction in force.
If you don't like it, hit thehighway.
There's not this time.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
I'm like shuddering as you're saying these things as
a fellow Gen Xer.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
I'm like oh, and we did shudder right, we did Well
we didn't do it in the bathroomstall.
We did it in the bathroom stall.
You know We'd wait to six tillour boss left, even if we didn't
have any work.
It was very performative andwhat we're talking about in this
win-win is that we still wantpeople to be productive, but we
(17:27):
don't want them to spend energyperforming for us.
We actually want them to applythat to doing their job, being
honest, being transparent,giving us, from their vantage
point, the insights that theyhave that can actually drive the
business.
And I'll tell you a quick story.
There's a factory that was inChicago, outside of Chicago, and
what they did was newmanagement came in and they had
(17:50):
drivers and many of the driverswho were going on their routes.
They were given automatedroutes, like GPS, like we all
see, and there was a frustrationamong the drivers, specifically
ones that were like born andraised there, because they're
like this route is wrong, andwe've actually experienced that
with GPS.
Sometimes it's supposed to bethe shortcut, it's the longer
cut.
What this new management didwas they took that employee
(18:12):
listening and they put a callout and they said look, over the
next two years we're trying togrow the business by this much.
We're looking for efficienciesin the business.
Give us your ideas on how youcan do your job more efficiently
.
So this time this driveractually makes that
recommendation, they're able topilot, implement it.
(18:32):
What they were able to see weretwo things that I thought were
really stark.
One is they were able to savemoney.
They were able to optimize theroute.
The second thing they were ableto do is they had a frustrated
set of drivers who felt thatthey weren't listened to, that a
machine was trusted more thanthem, and so you had a group of
employees who now felt heard,seen and felt like they could
(18:54):
contribute.
After that instance, they begandoing more of that.
So they had a budget toreinvent and do some upgrades to
the facility.
They asked the front line whereshould we be using these
dollars?
By a Democratic vote, peoplevoted and they used the money in
that way, and when I went inand interviewed employees and
said, okay, what was good aboutthis?
(19:14):
What did this mean to you?
What did it signal mean to you?
What did it signal?
They were like, well, so manytimes we've been asked about
things but nothing's actuallyhappened.
You know, they didn't do allthe things we wanted, but they
did the two, and they explainedto us why they couldn't do the
other ones.
And someone said, a guy said,you know, while I didn't agree,
like I understood it and Irespected the fact, they
actually circled back, becausefor years no one's ever circled
(19:34):
back on any of my suggestions.
So, again, it's the perspectivethat people are given when
we're investing and we'rebringing people into our
thinking.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
So let's say, I'm a leader that reports into the
executive leadership, the CEOand I also have a team and I'm
listening to this conversationor I've been really curious
about how to fix this.
I want to hear both sides of it.
How do you suggest they pitchtheir executive team as to why
(20:08):
making these changes andcreating a win-win organization,
like why is it helpful?
I mean, I know you just gavedata and data works, but I can
hear in my ear someone saying,like well, we just don't have
time, we don't have the ability,we don't have the budget to
hire in external trainers tocome in and do this.
It's not the right season toreorg our whole structure.
(20:30):
What's something that someonewho's listening to this can do
this week to be able to slowlychip away and start to make
these changes?
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Yeah.
So I think the biggest thingand I hear this often, I mean
time is the most preciousresource that we all have
Typically and I talk about thisin the book and it's in chapter
10, and it's measuring the ROIon the win-win workplace.
What I talk to businesses thatwe're looking at and what we saw
the businesses that were makingin this investment.
They actually started reallysmall, so no one overhauled the
(21:03):
program.
They thought about one or twomeasures that they thought would
matter most, impact theirbusiness.
They thought about the one ortwo metrics that if they went to
their CFO that would actuallyget their attention or get the
attention of a business unitleader.
They started with those andthey started the tracking there.
Again, what is the one smallthing that you think could have
(21:26):
a marked difference?
And so asking about maybe thatone or two metrics, taking that
data and actually going to yourleadership and say I've surveyed
the team of all the things wecan do.
They said these one or twothings are most important.
What are your feedback on thisIf we were to do these, working
with that CFO?
(21:46):
And I really recommend CHROsleaders, get with your CFO and
really try to understand whatmetrics are you measuring and
which ones are most important tothe CFO?
Because these things cost money.
Right, you're pitching them andyou really need to have an
analysis on how this is going todrive the business.
And again, you're not startingwith 10 things.
(22:06):
It could be one or two thatyou're going to commit to
measuring, that your team willcommit to measuring.
We're not going to ask them todo 10 things and you're going to
make sure that that will movethe needle on the business side
and you're going to track thatand typically what we've seen
companies do and leaders do.
They do a pilot over threemonths and they come back with
the data and they learn fromthat.
So a 90-day trial Got it.
(22:27):
That's exactly it.
So we're not saying shifteverything, we're saying try
this One metric.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Would you recommend across departments, or would you
like say, let's try it in thisdepartment or this business unit
first?
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Let's try it in this department and this business
unit.
First, Because once you havethe metric, what we say is if
you've seen some traction goodor bad and if it's good, you can
learn from it, you can begin toshare it with another
department.
It just shifts the tenor of theconversation when you're having
a data informed decision, Rightright and then also for our
listeners and viewers.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
What I know to be true for sure is many of the
FANG companies, in order to getpromoted, you have to prove that
the project and the researchyou did was also beneficial to
another department, so thatsomebody else has to take your
case study and build on it, andthat's one of the biggest
criteria for getting promotedwithin those companies.
So this could be a real likeding, ding.
(23:23):
Hey, this could be a win notonly for you, but to also your
own career trajectory, which Ithink is important.
So come from the other side.
I'm the again.
I'm that senior leader and I'vegot a team who is like I'm
already busy.
You've already taken enough outof me.
(23:43):
You want me in the office threedays a week and now you want me
to start measuring somethingthat's like I don't know.
Is this really going to beworth it?
How would you suggest a leaderwork with a resistant team?
Speaker 2 (23:54):
So the big thing is and I keep going back to this
because sometimes you have to goslower to go fast if that makes
sense, and as a leader of ateam, just by background, I
worked in the private sector atNokia Viacom.
I managed dispersed teams fromaround the globe and so
sometimes you're like, can Igive someone shorthand so we can
(24:15):
just get this done?
When we're talking about thesetypes of change, we're thinking
about changing people's mindsand hearts.
One, we need to understand thatresistance is part of it, so
not taking that personal.
Two, resistance is alsoinformation, so using that as
data to really more deeplyunderstand what is being said
(24:39):
and what is not being said inthat moment, so that you can
actually speak to that andtaking a beat and pause.
So again, not-.
Resistance is.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Data is like a true takeaway If your team is
resistant.
There's a story behind thestory.
Ask more questions.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
We have to ask more questions and sometimes we get
triggered in the moment.
Right, you're doing the best asyou can, you're a great manager
, you're trying to do all thethings and you're like why is
this happening?
Take a beat to understand whythat is and what's the story
behind the story.
Once you have that, then youcan come up with what your game
plan is and you can also bringthem to your thinking.
(25:13):
Sometimes, as managers, ourdirect reports don't see that we
actually have a boss too.
Right, as humans and I talkabout this in the book, and this
is why you have to bring peopleinto your thinking and your
rationale, so that you're all inthe boat rowing in the same
direction.
It's not leader against theirteam, it's like team, it's your
(25:35):
leader, and we also have anotherbody that we're reporting to.
So I need your help to buildthe case for our larger
management, for these types ofinvestments.
Without your support, I can'tbuild a case.
So without your data, withoutyour insights, I don't have a
fully informed strategy that Ican go forward with.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Right, and I would say from where I sit in this
conversation, I often work withleaders who are hesitant,
because it's not that they don'twant to be challenged, they
want to be challengedintellectually, they want to
make the product, the processbetter, but they don't want to
be challenged by junior peoplewho don't know what they're
doing kind of mindset, right.
(26:16):
So, working on the mindset thatgreat ideas can come from
anywhere, it's creating aculture of respect that someone
should be able to give feedbackin a respectful way.
So that kind of goes into.
My next question is that howwould you recommend that an
employee voices their concernsabout changes or what needs to
(26:38):
get done without being perceivedas resistant or disengaged or
disrespectful?
Because that's the biggest thingI hear is that the the tone and
sentiment between thegenerations is so different that
I think you and I, as Gen Xers,if we said some of the things
that are very common today, Iwould have been walked out the
(27:01):
door faster than I would everpredict, right?
So there's just again.
It doesn't no one's right, noone's wrong, it's just a
different time, and if you wantto succeed, you have to figure
out how to continue to reinventand stay agile in this.
So what are your thoughts there?
Like, how do I approach thiswithout being the problem?
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Absolutely, and I want to tackle it from the
leader's perspective.
Everything you said Jill aboutwhat would have happened.
Those are unspoken andunwritten rules, right.
And so there's something youlearn trial by error.
I always tell leaders get aheadof it.
What's your process by whichpeople can give you feedback?
What are the norms that youwant to put in place?
(27:45):
Because when you set that up,as you're onboarding people, or
if you're an inherited team,you're setting what the ground
rules are and then you can havea conversation about is this out
of bounds?
So I've set up so that we haveweekly meetings that you can
give feedback.
I've set up that we have allhands, teams meetings and that
we've allocated a portion of thetime that's around.
(28:07):
You know how do we drive thebusiness, how do we solve this
problem?
So what you're doing as aleader, you're beginning to
model and to manage how thisfeedback comes.
Again, that doesn't prevent yougetting a comment from out of
left field, but at least you cango back to what these norms
look like and process and you'reactually teaching this new
generation.
And that's the thing that I'dsay.
(28:29):
Even when we were promoted tomanagers, we were never trained
to be managers.
Oh no, we were promoted becausewe were great individual
contributors and so in thismoment there's this great
relearning for us, not only howto manage, how to manage
differently than how we weremanaged, and to manage this new
generation and so to setthemselves up.
(28:51):
What we want is a leader to setup the structures.
If you're an employee, I thinkwhat you can do is to recommend
those structures and give ideasfor what that looks like.
Jill, is there a portion of ourone-to-one?
I've been having some noticingsand insights about the business
.
Is there a portion of ourweekly conversation that I can
put that in and talk about these?
Yeah, the framing is verydifferent because you're talking
(29:14):
about how insights that I canput that in and talk about these
.
The framing is very differentbecause you're talking about how
insights that I have from whereI've seat that can drive the
business, that can solveproblems, and so, if we think
about as a manager and leader,if you're an employee, your
manager wants there's lots ofproblems to be solved.
They want someone who'ssolution driven, someone who's
tracking and knowing what goeson, who's connecting the
disparate dots and coming in andthinking about how they can add
(29:36):
value, and so that framingtypically puts them more at ease
.
It makes someone want to leanand say, what have you noticed?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you got thebusiness.
So it's again, it's an approachand it's a frame to that.
But again, for a leader, if youknow yourself and I love the
work you do Jill in coaching andallowing leaders to do work on
(29:56):
themselves, really understandinghow best do you receive
feedback?
How can you set up thosesystems so that you can get in a
way that works for you and thatyou can begin to share with the
team and get them into modeland the ways of working, of
doing that?
So it's being more proactiveversus reactive.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
I mean really, really helpful, and I think that idea
of looking at yourself first andoffering your teammate or your
direct report an opportunity inyour status as your one-on-ones,
that this is a great way andalso getting ahead of it, like
you said, I think that's anotherway of really thinking through,
inevitably based on behavior,people are going to ask
(30:37):
questions and they should beable to ask questions and we
don't want a situation where,just because we may have been in
fear-based organizations, wedon't want to keep that because
it's not healthy and it getstoxic.
And there's so many things aboutthe Gen X or not the Gen X,
excuse me, the Gen Zs and themillennials that I'm like you go
(30:57):
.
It's amazing seeing howdifferent they're navigating
things, but also there's a lotof wisdom at the Gen X and the
boomers that can also be shared.
So finding the constant way tomeet in the middle, I think, is
a way that a culture can thenbegin to change and then change
together, so it's not justgetting pulled to one side or
the other.
And I think your book isoutstanding and really a great
(31:20):
tool for people to use asthey're kind of going through
this.
So tell us, is this work thatyou do personally.
Would you go into anorganization and help them with
this restructure?
How do people find you to dothis work?
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Yeah, absolutely so.
There's a couple of things Ireally lead with the research
that I have at HarvardUniversity.
I'm also a senior advisor atthe Harvard Project on Workforce
, and so we have doctoralstudents that we go into
companies.
We write case studies on thesepractices.
We partner with senior leaderswhen they do pilots like this to
actually think about how do wedo the pilot, how do we think
(31:56):
about the information, how do wereport it out?
How do we measure what this ROIlooks like?
Again, we think about ourselveswhen I say the workplace
whisperer.
All of us are doing the bestthat we can and all of us need a
partner in thinking about thisnew world of work.
And so we go in, we do thiswork.
Some of it's just the plan,some of it's just listening and
(32:17):
some of it's around executionand finding the other right
partners that we need to putsome of these systems in place,
be it other people, be itlooking at your tech stack so
that you can do this employeelistening and thinking about how
you can do this in asustainable way.
And everything we do isresearch.
Back Again, we want to connectthe leaders with good solutions,
(32:38):
good technology, great coachingand having a data-informed plan
that they can move forward.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Thank you, Angela.
This is really, really helpful.
I will put all of yourinformation in the show notes.
I'll also put a link.
You can get Angela's book atany of the major sellers and
retailers.
But I will put that link inthere.
And if you have questions, youknow I want you to email me.
We will bring Angela back.
We will get those questionsanswered if you have them, and
you can email me at hello atjillgriffincoachingcom.
(33:07):
And until next time, beintentional and think about
reinvention.
How can you apply some of thisinto your workplace?
And, as always, be kind.
I thank you for being here.
No-transcript.
Hey friends, I am Jill Griffin, the host of the
Career Refresh podcast, and I'mreally glad that you're here
because I am introducing you toDr Angela Jackson.
She is an author and founder ofFuture Forward Strategies,
which is a labor marketintelligence, design thinking
and strategy firm, and shereally thinks of herself as a
workplace strategist.
In this conversation we go overa lot of what's going on in the
(00:23):
workplace and we weave theconversation back and forth
between when we're talking tothe employer and the employee.
We talk about how do you createa win-win workplace, how do you
make a workplace work for boththe employer and the employee.
We talk about that thedifferences in this generation
versus the younger generations,versus the older generations,
and how some of those gaps arecreating some of the
(00:45):
communication challenges and howyou can navigate them, moving
forward to create again thewin-win workforce.
And then we also talk aboutgetting centered on employees'
voices, with Dr Angela Jacksonis a big proponent of that.
To have a win-win situation,you want to make sure that
you're centering around employeevoices.
One of my favorite things thatcame out of this was talking
(01:06):
about resistance is data, andwhen you have resistance from
your team or your leaders, whatdo you need to learn from that
and where can you dig deeper andreally dig in to what people
are concerned about?
I had one follow-up question forDr Angela Jackson that I wanted
(01:27):
to understand how do we bestbalance the expectations of
newer generations with moreseasoned and experienced workers
?
We often hear about how thenewer workers are not
necessarily understanding how towork with the more seasoned
worker, and the more seasonedworker feels like they're always
having to adjust their workstyle to get you know the
(01:48):
younger and the newergenerations to produce the work
right.
There's that balance in between.
It doesn't mean one side istrue, it's just the perception
out there.
So I asked Dr Angela Jacksonwhat she thought here and she
said that this is about acommitment to a win-win.
I'm going to read her responseOne where we recognize that
(02:10):
expertise exists at every levelof an organization.
A junior employee brings freshideas, adaptability and digital
fluency.
A seasoned colleague offersinstitutional knowledge,
strategic thinking and patternrecognition.
Instead of expecting one groupto adjust to the other, the best
organizations create systemsthat value and leverage the
strengths from the both.
The key is structuredcollaboration, reverse
mentorship, mixed tenureprojects and open discussions
(02:33):
about workplace preferences whenwe shift from generational
stereotypes to shared learning,we create a workplace in which
everyone wins.
By valuing different vantagepoints and fostering reciprocal
learning, we build anorganization where employees
contribute to success and thrivein the process.
I always want to hear from youwhat do you think about what is
(02:54):
going on within the workplaceand what is going on
generationally, and how do wecreate that win-win?
So you know, you can alwaysemail me at hello at
jillgriffincoachingcom, but diginto this episode because I
think you're going to enjoy it.
It's rich with insight and alsoin the show notes you will find
how to get Dr Angela Jackson'snew book.
So dig in and enjoy and I'llsee you soon.
(03:16):
Hi, dr Angela Jackson, I amexcited that you're here For our
viewers and listeners.
I am Jill Griffin.
I am an executive coach and thehost of your Career Refresh,
and I love to bring on authorsand thought leaders.
And today is a treat because wehave Dr Angela Jackson, who has
(03:38):
a new book coming out, and thisepisode if you're watching it
or are listening to it isdropping the day her book comes
out.
It is win-win and I'm going tohave Dr Angela Jackson introduce
herself.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Jill, thank you so much for having me.
So, dr Angela Jackson, I'm CEOof Future Forward Strategies.
I think of myself as aworkforce strategist and really
workplace whisperer, andthinking about how can we use
the research on what we'refinding in companies to make
meaning of what the modernworkplace looks like today, and
(04:12):
what are those strategies thatwe can employ that not only
makes our lives easier as amanager and leader, but actually
has a dotted line to drivingbusiness impact.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
So I mean it's so good, it's so needed, and I know
we are all talking about thisin different circles and I feel
like it's it's.
It could not be more importantand relevant the the idea of a
strategic plan for the win-winworkplace, which, of course, is
the title of your book.
So just to crown everybody, Imean again, you have this
amazing background.
(04:44):
I know you're also an educatorat Harvard University.
In the work that you're doingwithin the university or working
with students is really morethe question how do you see some
of this creating the win-winworkplace?
Is it also showing up onuniversity campuses in this way?
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Oh, it's showing up in a major way.
Jill, I'm smiling now because Iteach two major classes.
Probably each semester.
I'm teaching over 150 gradstudents from literally all over
the world and I'll give you afunny story.
When we talk about the careerrefresh, I remember my first
year of teaching grad studentsat Harvard University.
(05:24):
I get an email from a mom whoseson was upset because I had a
presentation they were going topitch on the first day and I
hadn't given him time to prepareand I said well, the fact that
his mom is reaching out to youalone is enough that I'm like oh
well, that's the thing and Italk about this with colleagues
and friends as we're doing thisworld of work is that we have a
(05:47):
generation now that's in theworkplace.
I'm Gen X.
We think about millennials.
They've been raised differently, you know they've been.
You know there's this thingthat we hear about helicopter
parents, that people are doingeverything for their children
and in certain regards, you know, some of us may say that hasn't
been so great when they need toshow up as adults and listen to
(06:09):
heart truths and everything isnot going to go their way.
But in other respects, I thinkabout how I was raised
professionally, and it was, youknow.
I was given an assignment, Iput my head down, I do the
assignment.
What I'd like to say about thisgeneration is we're talking to
your CEOs, leaders is that thisgeneration is not okay with just
putting their heads down.
(06:29):
They're used to having thingsexplained to them and having a
rationale, and so what I'mseeing with my students I'm
seeing this at the graduatelevel, I'm also seeing this with
emerging leaders in theworkplace is that they want to
be brought into the thinking ofa company, of a CEO, of a
manager.
That's difficult sometimes whenyou've been raised in a
(06:50):
different way the fast-pacednature of business.
But I've seen with my researchand as I shared with you this
was research over 1,200companies over 10 years and just
recently we replicated thisresearch in 355 of Fortune 500
companies and really what wewant to understand were what
were the practices andstrategies of investing in
(07:12):
people that had a dotted lineand showed business impact and
lift on the financial side, andwhat were companies doing to
actually thrive with this newgeneration of workers and what
were the practices that weren'tdoing so well, that were
actually receiving a lot ofpushback and really trying to
understand what changes do weneed to make and which changes
(07:36):
do we need to hold steady on.
But we might need to explainand bring people into our
thinking and bringing folksalong.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Okay.
So for our listeners andviewers, angela and I are going
to weave the conversation.
Sometimes we're going to offerthe insight for the employer or
the senior leader, other timesit will be for the employee, and
I think it's important to weavethat because, again, even if
you're a senior leader, you'restill an employee.
It's like both sides of thecoin.
(08:04):
So what I'm hearing you say issome of the tension that we're
reading about or hearing about,depending on our access to the
conversations that we're in isthe millennials and Gen Zers are
expecting to be brought intothe conversation, which isn't
right or wrong.
It's what they want.
But the seasoned worker that'salready been there has not been
(08:27):
trained on how to do that,because they were just told to
get it done and necessarily itwasn't a participatory
conversation.
At times it wasn't acollaborative.
So that's one of the nuancesyou're noticing is what am I
getting that right?
Speaker 2 (08:41):
That's exactly it when we think about our social
contract.
For many years with the worldof work, it was employer.
We're paying you a salary, anhourly wage for you to do a job,
worker, you come in and you dothat job and the exchanges once
you get that salary that was thewin-win really.
If we think about it, then whatwe're seeing with another
(09:04):
generation of workforce who arefast becoming the majority of
our workforce, is that thatpaycheck exchange, they're
saying, is not enough.
There was recent research thatcame out that people would take
a 30% pay cut if they could workremote.
So that's saying that dinglingof a paycheck is not the
incentive that it used to be.
(09:25):
It still is an incentive.
It's still important, but notas important.
We see people who are alsovoting.
Employees are voting with theirvalues and their feet and so
knowing that, if it's not justthe paycheck that people want,
values and they want seen andheard what I say to leaders are
knowing and having thisinformation and data is there a
(09:47):
potential for us to reimaginewhat it means to be in the
workplace and to work at aparticular company, and I want
to give just a quick example tomake that a bit clear.
I was working with the CEO of afast casual restaurant and he
was really perplexed because hefelt like they had best in class
benefits.
And you know, they wereoffering everyone from the front
(10:08):
lines of the C-suite 401kbenefits.
And when he came to me and Iwas interviewing he's like he
was perplexed because no one wastaking advantage of it.
And he goes Angela, you knowI'm the Harvard researcher.
Angela, do you know why this ishappening?
I would have killed forsomething like this.
And I said is happening?
I would have killed forsomething like this.
And I said well, I don't know,but have you asked them?
And he hadn't.
And so we did a set of what wecall employee listening, and the
(10:35):
book is the first chapter,which is the building block of
centering employee voice.
This is beyond the checkboxthat we've already seen, the
suggestion box that you see incertain companies.
It's really trying to moredeeply understand what are the
expectations of the workforce,what are the lived realities and
what are the barriers thatcould either prevent people from
doing their job or could helpthem do their job better.
And so, in doing that, onething that he learned was that,
(10:58):
while people appreciated the401k we're talking about
millennials, they reportedoverwhelmingly that there were
more important things on theirmind than how they were going to
retire in 50 or 60 years.
They were worried about howwere they getting to work
transportation we found thatmost of the people were spending
26% of their after-tax incomeon just getting to work.
(11:21):
We found about caregivingthey're in the sandwich
generation, and so what thisemployer was able to do was
reallocate some of thosebenefits and give choice and
optionality.
What did that do?
At the end of the day,employers when we serve at the
employees it went from I don'tthink that they care about us.
I feel they do.
My employer cares about me.
I feel like they care about theissues that matter most to me.
(11:43):
So we're talking about the samebudget, we're talking about a
reallocation of that, and whatyou've got is that you've got
employees that is happierbecause of that, and so that's
one example Based on theemployee.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Depending on where they are in that arc of their
life experience, they may makedifferent choices in that and
depending on where they are inthat arc of their life
experience.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
they may make different choices in that and
they may say things in differentvalue right, the value of
something is different, right?
Speaker 1 (12:10):
I think the other thing that's the nuance of what
you didn't say which I think isimportant for our listeners to
think about is so often when wehear about the tension between
leadership, we'll just say andthe employee.
It's the interpretation as ifthe employee wants to change the
company or to change whatthey're doing, or to change the
(12:30):
goals.
And while I'm sure that'shappening in some pockets, the
reality is we're not asking youto change the goal, the mission
of the company.
We're asking you to center onemployee well-being and
therefore the ethos of thecompany might change, but you
still might be making widgets,you still might be a quick
service restaurant, but the wayyou're showing up and I think
(12:52):
when we read the articles in theWall Street Journal and the
Financial Times and et cetera,or an HR article, we have to
understand the ask is about.
We want to be, oh my God,treated as humans.
We don't want to be treated as,you know, cogs in a wheel.
And you, changing the way youdo business doesn't mean that
(13:13):
you have to reinvent yourproduct, or maybe it does, but
that's not the first line ofwhat we're talking about here
and I think that's a majordistinction that I often hear
pushback on.
Yeah, employees don't knowthey're not the strategic
leaders we didn't say they were.
They're asking to be treatedwith, you know, centering on
employee well-being yeah, andit's well-being, but it's also
(13:33):
saying I love what you said.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
You know they're not the strategists.
What we saw in companies wasanother phenomenon where they
were actually thriving is that,depending on where an employee
sat, there was a feeling of thatthat person had a set of
expertise and had a viewpointfrom where they sit within the
organization.
So, whether they're at thefront desk, they might have
(13:57):
insights on how you could betterwelcome people, and so the idea
is that really valuing everyoneand saying they have a set of
information and expertise thatwhen we're doing a strategy, we
need to know that.
We need to know what thebarriers are.
We're working with a globalfinancial firm and they noticed
that with all of their bankbranches, that there were a
(14:20):
third that were very highperforming branches, they had a
second that were moderate, thatcould do better, and they had
the underperforming ones.
And it was fascinating when theybegan to do some of this,
listening to understand whatsome of those barriers are and
their reasons were when theybegin to center that to think
about things that they could dofor the employee.
They begin to center that tothink about things that they
(14:40):
could do for the employee.
They begin to measure this andthe assets under management at
those banks, at some of thosenon-performing stores, begin to
go up.
As employee engagement went up,so did assets under management,
and so there's a directcorrelation to some of these dot
dot dots that I'm saying.
My big guidance to companiesare begin to look at this, see
(15:02):
what employees are wanting, seeif it's something that you can
measure and that actually fitswithin your existing strategy.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
So the Right Breaking that down another way and again
.
We don't know for sure, butwhat we hear implied in that is
that when employees are engagedand well taken care for, the
assets under management increasebecause if they're showing up
differently than theirinteractions with their end
consumer or customer, they'reable to increase in customer
(15:29):
retention and everyone is just alittle bit happier and you want
to do business with companiesthat you also feel good about
doing business with.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Well, think about that.
You know, I've had certainbanking relationships that I
like.
I would avoid them like theplague.
I'd rather go to the ATM, butif there's a friendly face maybe
you'd stop in.
We're all looking forconnection.
That's that human touch point.
And again, I keep saying, if wemeasure these things, we can
see some indicators.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
I love it.
Let's get into a couple of bookquestions so just to ground
everybody.
I mean I know the answerbecause I read the book and
(16:17):
again I'll put was really reallywell, just so simple as a
framework to understand thezero-sum game workplace and why
you want to be in a win-winorganization.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Absolutely.
When we looked at the zero-sumworkplace and looked at a set of
companies, what we saw was atraditional management, and it's
the one that we talked about,that many of us were raised
professionally.
You know your exchange forshowing up as a paycheck and
that's what we owe you, and youknow we're in business and
that's what you're here to do.
What's happening in yourpersonal life doesn't matter
(16:47):
that.
Check that at the door.
Come in and do the work.
Someone has to lose in this,and so if there's going to be a
loser, it's going to be you.
We'll do a reduction in force.
If you don't like it, hit thehighway.
There's not this time.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
I'm like shuddering as you're saying these things as
a fellow Gen Xer.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
I'm like oh, and we did shudder right, we did Well
we didn't do it in the bathroomstall.
We did it in the bathroom stall.
You know We'd wait to six tillour boss left, even if we didn't
have any work.
It was very performative andwhat we're talking about in this
win-win is that we still wantpeople to be productive, but we
(17:27):
don't want them to spend energyperforming for us.
We actually want them to applythat to doing their job, being
honest, being transparent,giving us, from their vantage
point, the insights that theyhave that can actually drive the
business.
And I'll tell you a quick story.
There's a factory that was inChicago, outside of Chicago, and
what they did was newmanagement came in and they had
(17:50):
drivers and many of the driverswho were going on their routes.
They were given automatedroutes, like GPS, like we all
see, and there was a frustrationamong the drivers, specifically
ones that were like born andraised there, because they're
like this route is wrong, andwe've actually experienced that
with GPS.
Sometimes it's supposed to bethe shortcut, it's the longer
cut.
What this new management didwas they took that employee
(18:12):
listening and they put a callout and they said look, over the
next two years we're trying togrow the business by this much.
We're looking for efficienciesin the business.
Give us your ideas on how youcan do your job more efficiently
.
So this time this driveractually makes that
recommendation, they're able topilot, implement it.
(18:32):
What they were able to see weretwo things that I thought were
really stark.
One is they were able to savemoney.
They were able to optimize theroute.
The second thing they were ableto do is they had a frustrated
set of drivers who felt thatthey weren't listened to, that a
machine was trusted more thanthem, and so you had a group of
employees who now felt heard,seen and felt like they could
(18:54):
contribute.
After that instance, they begandoing more of that.
So they had a budget toreinvent and do some upgrades to
the facility.
They asked the front line whereshould we be using these
dollars?
By a Democratic vote, peoplevoted and they used the money in
that way, and when I went inand interviewed employees and
said, okay, what was good aboutthis?
(19:14):
What did this mean to you?
What did it signal mean to you?
What did it signal?
They were like, well, so manytimes we've been asked about
things but nothing's actuallyhappened.
You know, they didn't do allthe things we wanted, but they
did the two, and they explainedto us why they couldn't do the
other ones.
And someone said, a guy said,you know, while I didn't agree,
like I understood it and Irespected the fact, they
actually circled back, becausefor years no one's ever circled
(19:34):
back on any of my suggestions.
So, again, it's the perspectivethat people are given when
we're investing and we'rebringing people into our
thinking.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
So let's say, I'm a leader that reports into the
executive leadership, the CEOand I also have a team and I'm
listening to this conversationor I've been really curious
about how to fix this.
I want to hear both sides of it.
How do you suggest they pitchtheir executive team as to why
(20:08):
making these changes andcreating a win-win organization,
like why is it helpful?
I mean, I know you just gavedata and data works, but I can
hear in my ear someone saying,like well, we just don't have
time, we don't have the ability,we don't have the budget to
hire in external trainers tocome in and do this.
It's not the right season toreorg our whole structure.
(20:30):
What's something that someonewho's listening to this can do
this week to be able to slowlychip away and start to make
these changes?
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Yeah.
So I think the biggest thingand I hear this often, I mean
time is the most preciousresource that we all have
Typically and I talk about thisin the book and it's in chapter
10, and it's measuring the ROIon the win-win workplace.
What I talk to businesses thatwe're looking at and what we saw
the businesses that were makingin this investment.
They actually started reallysmall, so no one overhauled the
(21:03):
program.
They thought about one or twomeasures that they thought would
matter most, impact theirbusiness.
They thought about the one ortwo metrics that if they went to
their CFO that would actuallyget their attention or get the
attention of a business unitleader.
They started with those andthey started the tracking there.
Again, what is the one smallthing that you think could have
(21:26):
a marked difference?
And so asking about maybe thatone or two metrics, taking that
data and actually going to yourleadership and say I've surveyed
the team of all the things wecan do.
They said these one or twothings are most important.
What are your feedback on thisIf we were to do these, working
with that CFO?
(21:46):
And I really recommend CHROsleaders, get with your CFO and
really try to understand whatmetrics are you measuring and
which ones are most important tothe CFO?
Because these things cost money.
Right, you're pitching them andyou really need to have an
analysis on how this is going todrive the business.
And again, you're not startingwith 10 things.
(22:06):
It could be one or two thatyou're going to commit to
measuring, that your team willcommit to measuring.
We're not going to ask them todo 10 things and you're going to
make sure that that will movethe needle on the business side
and you're going to track thatand typically what we've seen
companies do and leaders do.
They do a pilot over threemonths and they come back with
the data and they learn fromthat.
So a 90-day trial Got it.
(22:27):
That's exactly it.
So we're not saying shifteverything, we're saying try
this One metric.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Would you recommend across departments, or would you
like say, let's try it in thisdepartment or this business unit
first?
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Let's try it in this department and this business
unit.
First, Because once you havethe metric, what we say is if
you've seen some traction goodor bad and if it's good, you can
learn from it, you can begin toshare it with another
department.
It just shifts the tenor of theconversation when you're having
a data informed decision, Rightright and then also for our
listeners and viewers.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
What I know to be true for sure is many of the
FANG companies, in order to getpromoted, you have to prove that
the project and the researchyou did was also beneficial to
another department, so thatsomebody else has to take your
case study and build on it, andthat's one of the biggest
criteria for getting promotedwithin those companies.
So this could be a real likeding, ding.
(23:23):
Hey, this could be a win notonly for you, but to also your
own career trajectory, which Ithink is important.
So come from the other side.
I'm the again.
I'm that senior leader and I'vegot a team who is like I'm
already busy.
You've already taken enough outof me.
(23:43):
You want me in the office threedays a week and now you want me
to start measuring somethingthat's like I don't know.
Is this really going to beworth it?
How would you suggest a leaderwork with a resistant team?
Speaker 2 (23:54):
So the big thing is and I keep going back to this
because sometimes you have to goslower to go fast if that makes
sense, and as a leader of ateam, just by background, I
worked in the private sector atNokia Viacom.
I managed dispersed teams fromaround the globe and so
sometimes you're like, can Igive someone shorthand so we can
(24:15):
just get this done?
When we're talking about thesetypes of change, we're thinking
about changing people's mindsand hearts.
One, we need to understand thatresistance is part of it, so
not taking that personal.
Two, resistance is alsoinformation, so using that as
data to really more deeplyunderstand what is being said
(24:39):
and what is not being said inthat moment, so that you can
actually speak to that andtaking a beat and pause.
So again, not-.
Resistance is.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Data is like a true takeaway If your team is
resistant.
There's a story behind thestory.
Ask more questions.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
We have to ask more questions and sometimes we get
triggered in the moment.
Right, you're doing the best asyou can, you're a great manager
, you're trying to do all thethings and you're like why is
this happening?
Take a beat to understand whythat is and what's the story
behind the story.
Once you have that, then youcan come up with what your game
plan is and you can also bringthem to your thinking.
(25:13):
Sometimes, as managers, ourdirect reports don't see that we
actually have a boss too.
Right, as humans and I talkabout this in the book, and this
is why you have to bring peopleinto your thinking and your
rationale, so that you're all inthe boat rowing in the same
direction.
It's not leader against theirteam, it's like team, it's your
(25:35):
leader, and we also have anotherbody that we're reporting to.
So I need your help to buildthe case for our larger
management, for these types ofinvestments.
Without your support, I can'tbuild a case.
So without your data, withoutyour insights, I don't have a
fully informed strategy that Ican go forward with.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Right, and I would say from where I sit in this
conversation, I often work withleaders who are hesitant,
because it's not that they don'twant to be challenged, they
want to be challengedintellectually, they want to
make the product, the processbetter, but they don't want to
be challenged by junior peoplewho don't know what they're
doing kind of mindset, right.
(26:16):
So, working on the mindset thatgreat ideas can come from
anywhere, it's creating aculture of respect that someone
should be able to give feedbackin a respectful way.
So that kind of goes into.
My next question is that howwould you recommend that an
employee voices their concernsabout changes or what needs to
(26:38):
get done without being perceivedas resistant or disengaged or
disrespectful?
Because that's the biggest thingI hear is that the the tone and
sentiment between thegenerations is so different that
I think you and I, as Gen Xers,if we said some of the things
that are very common today, Iwould have been walked out the
(27:01):
door faster than I would everpredict, right?
So there's just again.
It doesn't no one's right, noone's wrong, it's just a
different time, and if you wantto succeed, you have to figure
out how to continue to reinventand stay agile in this.
So what are your thoughts there?
Like, how do I approach thiswithout being the problem?
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Absolutely, and I want to tackle it from the
leader's perspective.
Everything you said Jill aboutwhat would have happened.
Those are unspoken andunwritten rules, right.
And so there's something youlearn trial by error.
I always tell leaders get aheadof it.
What's your process by whichpeople can give you feedback?
What are the norms that youwant to put in place?
(27:45):
Because when you set that up,as you're onboarding people, or
if you're an inherited team,you're setting what the ground
rules are and then you can havea conversation about is this out
of bounds?
So I've set up so that we haveweekly meetings that you can
give feedback.
I've set up that we have allhands, teams meetings and that
we've allocated a portion of thetime that's around.
(28:07):
You know how do we drive thebusiness, how do we solve this
problem?
So what you're doing as aleader, you're beginning to
model and to manage how thisfeedback comes.
Again, that doesn't prevent yougetting a comment from out of
left field, but at least you cango back to what these norms
look like and process and you'reactually teaching this new
generation.
And that's the thing that I'dsay.
(28:29):
Even when we were promoted tomanagers, we were never trained
to be managers.
Oh no, we were promoted becausewe were great individual
contributors and so in thismoment there's this great
relearning for us, not only howto manage, how to manage
differently than how we weremanaged, and to manage this new
generation and so to setthemselves up.
(28:51):
What we want is a leader to setup the structures.
If you're an employee, I thinkwhat you can do is to recommend
those structures and give ideasfor what that looks like.
Jill, is there a portion of ourone-to-one?
I've been having some noticingsand insights about the business
.
Is there a portion of ourweekly conversation that I can
put that in and talk about these?
Yeah, the framing is verydifferent because you're talking
(29:14):
about how insights that I canput that in and talk about these
.
The framing is very differentbecause you're talking about how
insights that I have from whereI've seat that can drive the
business, that can solveproblems, and so, if we think
about as a manager and leader,if you're an employee, your
manager wants there's lots ofproblems to be solved.
They want someone who'ssolution driven, someone who's
tracking and knowing what goeson, who's connecting the
disparate dots and coming in andthinking about how they can add
(29:36):
value, and so that framingtypically puts them more at ease
.
It makes someone want to leanand say, what have you noticed?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you got thebusiness.
So it's again, it's an approachand it's a frame to that.
But again, for a leader, if youknow yourself and I love the
work you do Jill in coaching andallowing leaders to do work on
(29:56):
themselves, really understandinghow best do you receive
feedback?
How can you set up thosesystems so that you can get in a
way that works for you and thatyou can begin to share with the
team and get them into modeland the ways of working, of
doing that?
So it's being more proactiveversus reactive.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
I mean really, really helpful, and I think that idea
of looking at yourself first andoffering your teammate or your
direct report an opportunity inyour status as your one-on-ones,
that this is a great way andalso getting ahead of it, like
you said, I think that's anotherway of really thinking through,
inevitably based on behavior,people are going to ask
(30:37):
questions and they should beable to ask questions and we
don't want a situation where,just because we may have been in
fear-based organizations, wedon't want to keep that because
it's not healthy and it getstoxic.
And there's so many things aboutthe Gen X or not the Gen X,
excuse me, the Gen Zs and themillennials that I'm like you go
(30:57):
.
It's amazing seeing howdifferent they're navigating
things, but also there's a lotof wisdom at the Gen X and the
boomers that can also be shared.
So finding the constant way tomeet in the middle, I think, is
a way that a culture can thenbegin to change and then change
together, so it's not justgetting pulled to one side or
the other.
And I think your book isoutstanding and really a great
(31:20):
tool for people to use asthey're kind of going through
this.
So tell us, is this work thatyou do personally.
Would you go into anorganization and help them with
this restructure?
How do people find you to dothis work?
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Yeah, absolutely so.
There's a couple of things Ireally lead with the research
that I have at HarvardUniversity.
I'm also a senior advisor atthe Harvard Project on Workforce
, and so we have doctoralstudents that we go into
companies.
We write case studies on thesepractices.
We partner with senior leaderswhen they do pilots like this to
actually think about how do wedo the pilot, how do we think
(31:56):
about the information, how do wereport it out?
How do we measure what this ROIlooks like?
Again, we think about ourselveswhen I say the workplace
whisperer.
All of us are doing the bestthat we can and all of us need a
partner in thinking about thisnew world of work.
And so we go in, we do thiswork.
Some of it's just the plan,some of it's just listening and
(32:17):
some of it's around executionand finding the other right
partners that we need to putsome of these systems in place,
be it other people, be itlooking at your tech stack so
that you can do this employeelistening and thinking about how
you can do this in asustainable way.
And everything we do isresearch.
Back Again, we want to connectthe leaders with good solutions,
(32:38):
good technology, great coachingand having a data-informed plan
that they can move forward.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Thank you, Angela.
This is really, really helpful.
I will put all of yourinformation in the show notes.
I'll also put a link.
You can get Angela's book atany of the major sellers and
retailers.
But I will put that link inthere.
And if you have questions, youknow I want you to email me.
We will bring Angela back.
We will get those questionsanswered if you have them, and
you can email me at hello atjillgriffincoachingcom.
(33:07):
And until next time, beintentional and think about
reinvention.
How can you apply some of thisinto your workplace?
And, as always, be kind.
I thank you for being here.
No-transcript.
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